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threedogpack
Jun. 17, 2012, 04:48 PM
I bought my bosal and mecate, which came last week. Unfortunately, I did not have time, until today, to try it.

holycowshestops! Yep, run on exclamation. The little mare understood it and she listened to it. I rode her about 30 minutes in it and she was pertty good.

So thanks for the encouragement to try it, I probably would not have done it on my own.

Bluey
Jun. 17, 2012, 05:18 PM
Great.:cool:

Just remember, with any other than bits, the trick is in the immediate release to any you ask.
Communicating by the nose is about asking, never pulling, ever, or the horses learn to stick their nose out and run thru it.

Many horses prefer that to a bit, any day.
We even use our grass rope hackamores with our older horses whenever possible, they are so comfortable with them.

With bits, a rider can haul around and control a horse by sheer pressure on the mouth or leverage.
The rider can have impolite hands and get by so much.

Not with bosals, if a horse ever tries you and you pull back and try to hold, you are teaching them they can ignore you.
From on top of them, you can't get enough leverage on the nose, as you can with even a halter if you are on the ground.

It is all in teaching right, teaching light cues and sticking to them as a rider.
Ham handed riders don't get along with bosals for long.

Also, your body is already telling a horse what you are going to ask, so what you eventually get to "say" thru your reins is confirmation.

Nice that it worked so well for both of you.:)
How about some pictures?;)

threedogpack
Jun. 17, 2012, 06:01 PM
Great.:cool:

Just remember, with any other than bits, the trick is in the immediate release to any you ask.
Communicating by the nose is about asking, never pulling, ever, or the horses learn to stick their nose out and run thru it.

with the bosal, she's very sensitive, so there is no need to do much more than raise my hand and lower it again.


With bits, a rider can haul around and control a horse by sheer pressure on the mouth or leverage.
The rider can have impolite hands and get by so much.

not with this mare! She will brace against even a snaffle and just go. With the bosal she is much more sensitive and listens much better.



Not with bosals, if a horse ever tries you and you pull back and try to hold, you are teaching them they can ignore you.
From on top of them, you can't get enough leverage on the nose, as you can with even a halter if you are on the ground.

really? My mare must be wired differently then, because she immediately was more sensitive with the bosal and it took a feather weight of pressure to get the stop I was asking for. A tiny wiggle of a finger and she dropped her head too.


Nice that it worked so well for both of you.:)
How about some pictures?;)

I'll try, perhaps DD can get some of us!

Bluey
Jun. 17, 2012, 07:06 PM
I am sorry, I didn't explain myself clear enough.

A well trained hackamore horse will be extremely sensitive, as you found out.

What I was mentioning is that they take a very careful person so as to keep them that sensitive.
A person that doesn't get careless, as it is easy to undo much of that good training, as already mentioned.
That kind of sensitivity starts on the ground, how you handle them while on the ground is how good hackamore training begins and sustains.

That is one reason we would go to a snaffle soon on most sale and clients horses, because they were not going to keep that soft training up and the horses needed to be getting used to all kinds of riders and riding to get along in the world, wherever they landed.

Our own personal horses we kept on the hackamore, horses just seem to like it better and going thru the brush it is easier when a rein hangs up for the horse to pull thru.

So nice that your horse is so soft with a hackamore, it is a very nice feel, is it.:)

threedogpack
Jun. 17, 2012, 07:29 PM
So nice that your horse is so soft with a hackamore, it is a very nice feel, is it.:)

it is indeed!

spinandslide
Jun. 17, 2012, 11:03 PM
That is great!

I know about 2 months ago I moved my four year old into the bosal..I was very nervous doing so, having never ridden a horse in the bosal before. I did alot of research, bought a bosal and mecate, took a breath and tried it.

my results were similar to yours...utter relaxation and content-ness on my mare's part. I have worked hard to maintain her happiness. I was warned once a horse learns to "pull" in a bosal, its done..its about, as mentioned, the release...you cant "pull" yourself..really forces you to use your body more.

My filly has gotten extremly broke in the bosal..much more so then the snaffle..its wonderful.

goneriding24
Jun. 18, 2012, 08:18 AM
my results were similar to yours...utter relaxation and content-ness on my mare's part. I have worked hard to maintain her happiness. I was warned once a horse learns to "pull" in a bosal, its done..its about, as mentioned, the release...you cant "pull" yourself..really forces you to use your body more.

Horsemanship at its' finest. :yes:

lisae
Jun. 18, 2012, 02:14 PM
Can someone point me to the original thread, or it's title? I am thinking of going this route with my aged TWH who likes to GO! We had a heck of wrangle this weekend as I didn't want to be in his mouth (French link snaffle bit) but he wasn't listening. We finally agreed he could go as fast as he wanted to as long as it was at the walk. And that was still pretty fast. :winkgrin:

Bluey
Jun. 18, 2012, 03:04 PM
Can someone point me to the original thread, or it's title? I am thinking of going this route with my aged TWH who likes to GO! We had a heck of wrangle this weekend as I didn't want to be in his mouth (French link snaffle bit) but he wasn't listening. We finally agreed he could go as fast as he wanted to as long as it was at the walk. And that was still pretty fast. :winkgrin:


Started here:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353792

Went here:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356147

And this thread is the third one.:)

7HL
Jun. 18, 2012, 07:59 PM
Don't get over confident that your horse loves a bosal. Might be great in arena, but you do lose some control if you decide to take them out on the trail with a bosal.

Bluey
Jun. 18, 2012, 08:08 PM
Don't get over confident that your horse loves a bosal. Might be great in arena, but you do lose some control if you decide to take them out on the trail with a bosal.

Same as with a bit, the horse will be as controllable outside as it's training, no matter what it is wearing on it's head.:yes:

Good advice to always be sure your horse's training and your skills are a good match.

spinandslide
Jun. 18, 2012, 09:36 PM
Don't get over confident that your horse loves a bosal. Might be great in arena, but you do lose some control if you decide to take them out on the trail with a bosal.

Ive trail ridden my mare in her bosal, worked competitive trail obstacles and worked cattle..Im confident I can say she enjoys the bosal.:yes: But of course, she had good basics and training before the bosal was put on.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2012, 11:29 PM
Ive trail ridden my mare in her bosal, worked competitive trail obstacles and worked cattle..Im confident I can say she enjoys the bosal.:yes: But of course, she had good basics and training before the bosal was put on.

ignore him....whoa is whoa, in or out of an arena...broke to whoa in one place is broke to whoa anywhere


too many western ding dongs today reply on gimmicks and tricks instead of just teaching "whoa" I mean is is hardly glamorous and won't merit a Janet Jackson head set or a clinic fee to explain;)

Tamara

7HL
Jun. 19, 2012, 12:35 AM
Ive trail ridden my mare in her bosal, worked competitive trail obstacles and worked cattle..Im confident I can say she enjoys the bosal.:yes: But of course, she had good basics and training before the bosal was put on.

Difficult to pull off an emergency stop or one rein stop with a bosal.

Not saying never ride outside an arena. Many horses are well trained to use a bosal.

Many so far are just trying a bosal for the first time and commenting how well their horses like them.

Beverley
Jun. 19, 2012, 01:13 AM
Difficult to pull off an emergency stop or one rein stop with a bosal.



Actually, not so. Just a question of knowing how to do it with a bosal.

When Paul Dietz did a clinic at our barn a few weeks ago, he taught folks how to drill the one rein stop- and both of the horses he was using in the different sessions were in bosals. Clinicians were using bits, but they got the picture very easily.

threedogpack
Jun. 19, 2012, 01:28 AM
Difficult to pull off an emergency stop or one rein stop with a bosal.

Not saying never ride outside an arena. Many horses are well trained to use a bosal.

Many so far are just trying a bosal for the first time and commenting how well their horses like them.

first of all, I've never had to use a one rein stop. Either my horses know the cue or they don't. We don't leave the arena till they do.

second: I am trying the bosal for the first time, and it's the mares first time in a bosal WITH ME. I don't know if the previous owner/trainer rode her in one or not. My guess is not. It being the first time, doesn't mean I didn't see an immediate improvement. I did. She was more responsive, don't know if she liked it or not, but I got what I asked for with it much quicker than I did with the french link I had been using on her. A simple matter of observation.

spotnnotfarm
Jun. 19, 2012, 08:20 AM
Don't get over confident that your horse loves a bosal. Might be great in arena, but you do lose some control if you decide to take them out on the trail with a bosal.

Really??? I will be sure to inform my horse of this next time we go on a trail ride :rolleyes: !

Tamara in TN
Jun. 19, 2012, 09:26 AM
Actually, not so. Just a question of knowing how to do it with a bosal.



again....ignore [him]....the one rein stop is the very heart of bosal riding...it is the only place that it has an application


that it has been perverted by the latest guru cowboy wannabe into endless "flexing" of the western sideways rollkur is simply a sign of the sad modern times.

I realize that "someone" [edit] was desperate for a western end of this forum [edit]

but really stick to what you have a true "knowledge" of....K ? ;>

Tamara

7HL
Jun. 19, 2012, 09:54 AM
Never said impossible... so have fun.


Some here appear to want to turn this into an arguemnt or some personal statement.

First don't believe in over flexinging anything.

As far as one rein stop goes one speaking of personal experience. Have ridden my horse in bosal for some time. I primarily ride her in a grazing bit. I have ridden my horse on the trail in a bosal and even in a rope hackamore. She knows what whoa means. From personal experience, once, but that's all it takes to go wrong, had to ride out a gallop through the woods when my horse spooked. It is easier, in my opinion for a horse to ignore and avoid a one rein stop in a bosal then a bit. I am sure that now many of you will say your horse isn't trained well enough. Not going to debate that issue

Have fun riding in a bosal. Many horses respond well to them.

Bluey
Jun. 19, 2012, 10:05 AM
We started all colts in our homemade grass rope nose hackamores, race colts also.
We started them riding around the shedrow a day or two, then outside, not in any pens or arenas.
We taught the colts to respond to the hackamores in the first ten minutes we handled them, it is easy to do, they learn very fast and if you keep the light touch, there is no reason you can't shut down a colt trying to bolt, any place.

Here are two older horses, two colts being started, all wearing our hackamores, that are made after the ones Pine Johnson, of Poco Bueno fame, started using in the 1950's and no one has improved on yet:;)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Robintoo/Scan043December262006.jpg

Why are those still good? It is in the training behind them and how you use them.

By the way, I never heard before of any "one rein stop" until a few years ago on the internet.
Is just not something most older trainers ever used.

I think magazines started talking about it after those clinicians used that to get some of their out of control less than adequate riders on uneducated horses to get some kind of control of their horses in the crowded clinics.

I don't think that was intended to be used outside.

By the way, is everyone also having a terrible time reading and posting?
My computer keeps timing me out and the font keeps changing around.
It also keeps telling me to wait and repost when I try to post, when I have not posted yet?

7HL
Jun. 19, 2012, 10:31 AM
By the way, is everyone also having a terrible time reading and posting?
My computer keeps timing me out and the font keeps changing around.


YES!! Getting server error message, saying COTHs servers to busy. Got it from multiple locations, starting last night. May be their internet provider.

Beverley
Jun. 19, 2012, 03:00 PM
As far as one rein stop goes one speaking of personal experience. Have ridden my horse in bosal for some time.

You know, friendly reminder, you aren't the only one speaking from personal experience. In my case, 50+ years, hundreds of different horses of widey varying skills, training, issues, etc. First used a bosal in 1966.

Personally I haven't ever had a need to employ a one rein stop, even with bolting or panicky horses or green as grass horses. And my biggest concern with it is that when taught as a be-all and end-all to novice or less experienced riders, it can do way more harm than good, high potential for injury to horse and/or rider. If PROPERLY taught and PROPERLY understood, sure, a tool in the tool box. But never a substitute for good solid training on correct responses to the rider's aids.

And if a one rein stop is used, it certainly does work just fine with bosals. Whether your personal experience says so, or not.

7HL
Jun. 19, 2012, 03:11 PM
You know, friendly reminder, you aren't the only one speaking from personal experience. In my case, 50+ years, hundreds of different horses of widey varying skills, training, issues, etc. First used a bosal in 1966.

Personally I haven't ever had a need to employ a one rein stop, even with bolting or panicky horses or green as grass horses. And my biggest concern with it is that when taught as a be-all and end-all to novice or less experienced riders, it can do way more harm than good, high potential for injury to horse and/or rider. If PROPERLY taught and PROPERLY understood, sure, a tool in the tool box. But never a substitute for good solid training on correct responses to the rider's aids.

And if a one rein stop is used, it certainly does work just fine with bosals. Whether your personal experience says so, or not.

Agreed on all counts. Guess my point was that riding in a bosal is not the same as a bit.

threedogpack
Jun. 23, 2012, 04:49 PM
I rode the mare in it for the third time this afternoon. We only rode about 30 minutes, and only walk/turn/whoa.

By the second time I asked for a stop, I *thought* it, and raised my hand off her mane...and got the whoa. I'm sure there is some body language to go with all this, but whatever it is, it's all good as I'm getting a far nicer mare from it.

So...question for you who have the wealth of knowledge. As has been noted before, when asking for a turn, using the bosal is not like a direct rein. What I did today, with mixed results was:

put my weight on the seatbone and in the stirrup of the direction I wanted to turn and gently laid my outside leg on her side

lay the rein on her neck as if I was going to neck rein

and if necessary pick up and bump with the inside rein.

In that order. Not all at once. I was trying to give her an opportunity to figure out what each cue meant and anticipate what would get the release.

it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That's why we just walked. No need to add speed till she's consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?

Bluey
Jun. 23, 2012, 05:36 PM
I rode the mare in it for the third time this afternoon. We only rode about 30 minutes, and only walk/turn/whoa.

By the second time I asked for a stop, I *thought* it, and raised my hand off her mane...and got the whoa. I'm sure there is some body language to go with all this, but whatever it is, it's all good as I'm getting a far nicer mare from it.

So...question for you who have the wealth of knowledge. As has been noted before, when asking for a turn, using the bosal is not like a direct rein. What I did today, with mixed results was:

put my weight on the seatbone and in the stirrup of the direction I wanted to turn and gently laid my outside leg on her side

lay the rein on her neck as if I was going to neck rein

and if necessary pick up and bump with the inside rein.

In that order. Not all at once. I was trying to give her an opportunity to figure out what each cue meant and anticipate what would get the release.

it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That's why we just walked. No need to add speed till she's consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?

You may want to think of keeping your weight in the middle and a tad on that ouside leg that you are using actively.
You still want your weight in the middle, not disturb the horse's hind leg it will be turning on with it's own weight there, but also not load the inside shoulder at all.

Using the reins from on top follows having taught the horse from the ground what picking a rein and following it means, a signal but not a pull or, as you noticed, the hackamore moved all crooked on it's face.

Seems like you were trying to get the horse to turn as if it was wearing a sidepull not a bosal.

threedogpack
Jun. 23, 2012, 07:15 PM
You may want to think of keeping your weight in the middle and a tad on that ouside leg that you are using actively.
You still want your weight in the middle, not disturb the horse's hind leg it will be turning on with it's own weight there, but also not load the inside shoulder at all.

in the beginning everything is exaggerated isn't it?


Using the reins from on top follows having taught the horse from the ground what picking a rein and following it means, a signal but not a pull or, as you noticed, the hackamore moved all crooked on it's face.

Seems like you were trying to get the horse to turn as if it was wearing a sidepull not a bosal.

well she didn't respond in the beginning to anything OTHER than a pull on her face, so that is why that got used that way. I could keep doing ground work with her for another year, but I really want to .ride. the mare.

Bluey
Jun. 23, 2012, 07:24 PM
in the beginning everything is exaggerated isn't it?



well she didn't respond in the beginning to anything OTHER than a pull on her face, so that is why that got used that way. I could keep doing ground work with her for another year, but I really want to .ride. the mare.

I hear you.:lol:

Ground work with a hackamore takes a few minutes before you get on, called "doubling".

You may find some videos or articles on that, how to ask the horse to move it's hind feet with little tugs of the reins and how to turn around over it's hind end.

Here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XVcQr97y4

Here you can see, about 3:12, where the rider's weight is on the outside, letting the horse move over without that rider's weight impeding.
Now, this rider is a bit less good with his releases, as you can see by how the horse has some obvious resistances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV3_8roWZn4&feature=related

(Those are the first videos I found.)

threedogpack
Jun. 23, 2012, 08:04 PM
looks to me like you just have to ignore the mechanics of the bosal pressing on the outside of the face.

Ree does fine with giving me her face in a snaffle, but less so with the bosal. I'll just give it a bit more time and see how it goes.

I'll be back in a week or so if there aren't more problems!

Tamara in TN
Jun. 23, 2012, 08:11 PM
it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That's why we just walked. No need to add speed till she's consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?

as you have noted the bosal is a "whole nuther dog"
I watched Bluey's vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

they need to move to heavier gear on the face in both a bigger diameter bosal and a heaver set of reins or at least for gawds sake no slopping around like water in a bucket..

.that teaches the thing nothing

anyway rant off....do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

mount up and bend at the whoa to <x> reward that. do that like 4 or 5 times...she's not stupid I imagine and neither are you....

now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal....

both hands back and pulling and the horse says "seeya!!!" but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee...;) if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system


now once mounted take off walking...:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped...and you know how dressge types are always going on about going "forward" ? we'll you gotta do it too....push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it...

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse...so you cannot try to neck rein her now....prob not for weeks

you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand....just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs...you have already figured out whoa...

so now think about "go" and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:;)

Tamara

Bluey
Jun. 23, 2012, 08:21 PM
as you have noted the bosal is a "whole nuther dog"
I watched Bluey's vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

they need to move to heavier gear on the face in both a bigger diameter bosal and a heaver set of reins or at least for gawds sake no slopping around like water in a bucket..

.that teaches the thing nothing

anyway rant off....do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

mount up and bend at the whoa to <x> reward that. do that like 4 or 5 times...she's not stupid I imagine and neither are you....

now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal....

both hands back and pulling and the horse says "seeya!!!" but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee...;) if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system


now once mounted take off walking...:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped...and you know how dressge types are always going on about going "forward" ? we'll you gotta do it too....push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it...

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse...so you cannot try to neck rein her now....prob not for weeks

you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand....just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs...you have already figured out whoa...

so now think about "go" and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:;)

Tamara

Yeah, I hear you, I could not find a real cowboy handling a horse, those are the first ones I found that were not "wrong" all along.
At least they knew to shorten the inside rein before using it.

I do disagree in getting bigger bosals for those lighter horses.;)

Here is another one, this one talking about sizes.
Seems that all I can find is clinicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScfr9h-bkE

I would think that there are also regional differences and personal preferences in what each person and horse work best with.

threedogpack
Jun. 23, 2012, 08:39 PM
as you have noted the bosal is a "whole nuther dog"
I watched Bluey's vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

there is no need to bump her face at all, like I said, I "thought" whoa and had it with a lift of about 1".


nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

the mecate I'm using is not .nearly. as long as his is. Much shorter reins. I noticed that right off.


do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

I think I'm probably not asking for enough of a give anywhere (ground/on top). I'll work on it.


now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal....

both hands back and pulling and the horse says "seeya!!!" but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee...;) if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system

I'm no longer worried about her running through the bosal at all. My biggest issue today was getting her to turn (and not tight, big loose turns).



now once mounted take off walking...:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped...and you know how dressge types are always going on about going "forward" ? we'll you gotta do it too....push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it...

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse...so you cannot try to neck rein her now....prob not for weeks

but but but she was "getting" it! I have to quit?!


you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand....just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs...you have already figured out whoa...

so now think about "go" and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:;)

Tamara

I do got brakes, nice brakes. Better brakes than I ever had in the snaffle. Got less turn, but more brakes.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 23, 2012, 10:24 PM
I do got brakes, nice brakes. Better brakes than I ever had in the snaffle. Got less turn, but more brakes.

brakes are 90% of riding;) rate with the seat and you can do anything!

but to use an indirect rein (neck) right now will fiddle with her understanding of bringing the shoulders around to make your bend

just an open leading line for now and work on combining your seat and hands into some big sweepy figure 8's ......just keep them big and soft...bigger and softer than you think you need to.....I think you'll do fine:)


Tamara

threedogpack
Jun. 23, 2012, 10:29 PM
brakes are 90% of riding;) rate with the seat and you can do anything!

but to use an indirect rein (neck) right now will fiddle with her understanding of bringing the shoulders around to make your bend

just an open leading line for now and work on combining your seat and hands into some big sweepy figure 8's ......just keep them big and soft...bigger and softer than you think you need to.....I think you'll do fine:)


Tamara

k :)

Tamara in TN
Jun. 23, 2012, 10:35 PM
[QUOTE=Bluey;6393722]Yeah, I hear you, I could not find a real cowboy handling a horse, those are the first ones I found that were not "wrong" all along.
At least they knew to shorten the inside rein before using it.

I understand


I do disagree in getting bigger bosals for those lighter horses.;)

I think that heft and weight of the bigger bosals and heavier reins shows the young horse straight away where the face needs to go as well as the snugness of the bosal to the jaw...loose and moving up and down the nose with every stride will just make soreness where it is not needed (IMO)


.... so there is a lot less bumping and flexing and such like that as the weight and balance of the bosal and the knots does most of the work.

I know you have seen enough baby colts with their first halters on (not rope but real leather) they spend the first part of that day with their noses tucked giving to the weight of the halter...it wears off after a day or so and forget about it


Tamara

Bluey
Jun. 23, 2012, 11:06 PM
[QUOTE]

I understand



I think that heft and weight of the bigger bosals and heavier reins shows the young horse straight away where the face needs to go as well as the snugness of the bosal to the jaw...loose and moving up and down the nose with every stride will just make soreness where it is not needed (IMO)


.... so there is a lot less bumping and flexing and such like that as the weight and balance of the bosal and the knots does most of the work.

I know you have seen enough baby colts with their first halters on (not rope but real leather) they spend the first part of that day with their noses tucked giving to the weight of the halter...it wears off after a day or so and forget about it


Tamara

I agree on the heavier reins, they do help the signals.

We handled all our foals from the first few hours for the first three weeks, then they were turned out, after foal heat was over.
We had halters and tail ropes and tried to never hold a foal, just barely guide them so they learned to give, not pull.
We mostly let them go at their own pace and more or less where they wanted.
We also tied them from the first few hours by their mothers, the lead really very loose.
Once we started them under saddle, our own foals were extremely easy to teach, they already knew the basics on the ground and it pays.

I have seen some ranches halter break their weanlings with a mini hackamore made out of softer rope than our grass rope ones and also already teach them to give with it as with a real one.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 24, 2012, 10:10 AM
k :)

keep in mind that in the bosal it is not about the face....it's about the seat and legs...

so if you know that she knows already about the legs and seat use that to give her familiar things to "settle" back into when teaching something new


also change the thinking of the bosal on her face as "pulling" her nose/lips like a snaffle does,but rather "pushing" her face (from the other side) over like your hands closes a door....

the same way we push them over to move away from our legs in something like lateral work....between the push on her face and the impulsion from behind you have a nice sweepy turn ;)

Tamara

Bluey
Jun. 24, 2012, 10:30 AM
A great way to learn the feel of what you are doing is to ride a horse someone has trained and under their guidance.
Don't you have some reining/cutting trainer or some other that may know and give you a lesson on a suitable horse?

I feel that when we work on our own is a bit like reinventing the wheel, when it is sooooo easy to follow behind someone that already learned, horse and teacher.

In the end, the hackamore is not really that fine a tool to ride with or train, it is a step in the right direction, but doesn't beat a snaffle for the more refined training.
It is good for a horse you have to stay off their mouth, injured or a colt with new teeth coming in, or when you are riding and working, but not exactly concentrating on training only.

As Tamara said several times now, riding a hackamore or most western horses that are well trained is about all of the rider's aids, the hands and whatever you have at the end of reins one part of the whole you can phase out more and more the better trained the horse becomes.

In English riding, contact is more important and in racing, essential to the point of being considered "a fifth foot" at times.

threedogpack
Jun. 24, 2012, 11:08 AM
keep in mind that in the bosal it is not about the face....it's about the seat and legs...

yep, got that from previous posts, and she does move off my leg well, she just gets stiff in the face if I ask for her nose.


you[/B] know that she knows already about the legs and seat use that to give her familiar things to "settle" back into when teaching something new

She knows, is compliant and understands my legs. Not my seat so much but we're working on that and part of the learning process there is for ME as well. The mare is a whole different kettle'o'fish from my older mare. The older mare thought of people as speed bumps on her road to something, but when you got to the point of saying "hey! you gotta listen up here!" She acted surprised and paid attention. Then she could hear me and figure stuff out.

This mare....if you get after her much at all...she shuts down and just tries to get away. She's not so good at trying different things to figure out what you want.



also change the thinking of the bosal on her face as "pulling" her nose/lips like a snaffle does,but rather "pushing" her face (from the other side) over like your hands closes a door....



the same way we push them over to move away from our legs in something like lateral work....between the push on her face and the impulsion from behind you have a nice sweepy turn ;)

Tamara

that's what I got from your last post. Glad I understood! She just has to give me her face no matter if it's a snaffle or a bosal.

Thanks Tamara

threedogpack
Jun. 24, 2012, 11:17 AM
A great way to learn the feel of what you are doing is to ride a horse someone has trained and under their guidance.
Don't you have some reining/cutting trainer or some other that may know and give you a lesson on a suitable horse?

nope :no:

I had inquired around earlier this year for trainers who do reining or cow work of .some. sort but apparently this is exclusively pleasure horse country (both AQHA show and general trail riding) with a little barrel racing thrown in


I feel that when we work on our own is a bit like reinventing the wheel, when it is sooooo easy to follow behind someone that already learned, horse and teacher.

it's also much easier to have someone on the ground who can just watch and not have to multi task (handle new equipment, horse and pay attention to my legs/seat/hands). I've had 3 people watch her/me now and as I pointed out to Tamara, this mare is mostly compliant, but when she can't figure something out she just quits trying. All 3 of them told me I was being too nice to her, and since I trust them (they think mostly like I do), I tried being tougher on her....and it started a downward spiral each time. She would get upset, turn off her brain and start with practically screaming in body language "I don't know what you want!!!" Evading me, trying to run off, threatening to come off the ground, being so tense that when I asked something I got jumps forward, not a smooth transition. That was when I made the decision to go to a bosal and try that, which was an immediate and noticeable difference.


In the end, the hackamore is not really that fine a tool to ride with or train, it is a step in the right direction, but doesn't beat a snaffle for the more refined training.
It is good for a horse you have to stay off their mouth, injured or a colt with new teeth coming in, or when you are riding and working, but not exactly concentrating on training only.

it's made a world of difference for my mare, she understands the bosal for stopping, which is what I always start with. A horse has to go and stop before I do anything more complicated with them.

threedogpack
Jun. 24, 2012, 11:18 AM
I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has contributed. I'm listening, really I am, and I will try what you suggest. I may modify it a bit for this particular horse but I'm open to trying lots of different things.

Bluey
Jun. 24, 2012, 11:32 AM
You may also consider that, the more years you have been using any one tool to communicate, the better you will get.

Since you are rather new to training and to hackamore use, your horse will resist when you are not clear.
That is expected at times no matter how good you are, it sure is if you are a bit less than clear.

Don't fret, just don't repeat what is not working, keep trying to find a way to get responses with minimal reactions from your horse.

A good trainer doesn't handle each colt the same, adjusts to what works and you can do the same, but understand that you won't be very smooth until you become more experienced.

An eye on the ground helping you is great, but also don't let them demand perfection, there is going to be the occasional rough spot, don't feel handicapped by that if the results end up good, just don't repeat what you do if it doesn't work, that is important when training.

Keep your weight in the middle, don't fall to the inside and handicap the horse's turning.
That is at times the problem with a very sensitive horse.

SwampYankee
Jun. 24, 2012, 12:42 PM
Can someone point me to the original thread, or it's title? I am thinking of going this route with my aged TWH who likes to GO! We had a heck of wrangle this weekend as I didn't want to be in his mouth (French link snaffle bit) but he wasn't listening. We finally agreed he could go as fast as he wanted to as long as it was at the walk. And that was still pretty fast. :winkgrin:

FRENCH link? You're lucky an old TWH doesn't run you off a cliff in one of those! My old guy would just say "BwaaahaaahaaahaHAAAA!" and have his way with me; almost all of them were trained in shank bits, and I don't mean small ones, by the age of four so don't fight city hall--you need to use a curb to communicate, balance, and be safe if they come from the traditional Southern background.