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View Full Version : Anyone familar with Clinton Anderson's method?



JFJ
Jun. 16, 2012, 11:06 PM
I've been to doing some of the fundamentals with my bratty pinto, and my one issue is when I do flexing he always tries to bite me! Both on the ground and on his back. I'm not sure what the right move to make is, because he is flexing but to hit him for biting seems to tell him not to flex. Any ideas?

goneriding24
Jun. 17, 2012, 07:48 AM
I'm not familiar with his methods but he seems to draw on 'old time' horsemanship tidbits, so gonna take a swing at your question.

It could be when your flexing your horse and he tries to bite you, he's hurting somewhere. This over-flexing of horses nowadays confuses me. I don't see the point, especially in a western horse. Just looks good I guess.

To me, when you flex a horse, instead of forcing the horse around, where he's only bending through his neck from this shoulder, you should flex the entire body, from nose to tail. When his nose comes around on the left side, his ribcage should go a bit to the right, kind of bulging outward. Vice versa the other way. Flexing from front to back. Seems to me, when you only flex the nose, neck and shoulder, that's not doing much for the horse, just showing him how to be rubbernecked.

You want the drive to come from the rear on a western horse. How can a bent double horse drive from the rear? He can't in the truest sense of the word. When flexing, you want to see the outline of his eye when your sitting in the saddle. Not much point in over flexing all the time, bringing his nose to your toe. That doesn't really do much. But it looks good and to the uninitiated, looks like some real training is going on.

So, I'm going to take a flier on this and say he's hurting somewhere and prolly doesn't understand what all the flexing is about. It's okay for a horse to be supple but the flexing can, and often is, overdone.

Or, he's just being a jerk.

Try to cut down on the flexing and see if that improves things. I like a supple horse but to constantly flex from the shoulder only and not the whole body doesn't do anything for the horse. I'd be ticked off too, if I were a horse, and were always being asked to flex.

Seems to me, reading your horse a bit better might help the situation.

My horse came from a CA follower. I don't do half the stuff he was 'taught'.

Clear as mud?? :-)

VTMorgan06
Jun. 17, 2012, 08:05 AM
Did you teach him to come around using treats, and now he's expecting food and biting every time he bends his neck?

JFJ
Jun. 17, 2012, 11:37 AM
He's not hurting he is a jerk, lol! That is why I am trying this method. He was a nursemare foal so he was mainly hand raised and a little too comfortable with people. He is a major space invader and he is constantly trying to nibble on me no matter what we are doing. And no I don't hand feed him treats. I'm not looking for full body flexion, it is just an exercise to get the horse to listen to you.

BayRoan
Jun. 18, 2012, 12:23 PM
I would smack him on the belly with my hand or knee (depending on height to horse ratio) when he bites. It's discipline for being naughty, but not influencing his head. Ideally, he'll be surprised and step away with his hip and you can reinforce the flex with your lead while you do it.

Under saddle, inside foot to belly, with spur if necessary. Turn it into giving his hips, while still flexed. A horse that's a jerk will just think it's a great game if you start tapping them in the mouth with your foot for being nippy, and you don't want to start the flex/flinch game with him, anyway. He needs to be really uncomfortable, really fast, and then it's over, like it never happened.

Escalate the discipline as appropriate. It needs to make an impression. He's found a fun game, for him.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2012, 12:28 PM
Flexing the way that Clinton Anderson does it, is both stupid and detrimental to horses.

You NEVER saw the real cowboys do this in the old days and you will NEVER see it today in the real ones either.


He is a fraud.Walk away.

Tamara

goneriding24
Jun. 18, 2012, 12:58 PM
Well, ding, ding, ding... While rereading this thread I had a whatever you call it about my Mr. Leo.

His former owner, I'm pretty sure since she followed CA pretty tightly, prolly flexed Leo over and over and over again. Since he wasn't legged up properly and had such a rough start in life, I'm thinking overflexing him might (read: probably) had something to do with his lameness.

Going to have to think this through and do some investigating/research....

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2012, 12:59 PM
it is sideways western rollkur...nothing more.


Tamara

lisae
Jun. 18, 2012, 01:08 PM
I think it's a little strong to call him a fraud. (He may be a major capitalist though, charging a boatload of money for his products. They all sell those 'stick and string' things and you can make one by tying a grocery bag to a stick.) Anyways, I think the flexing thing does teach them that they can get a release from you. I taught it to my Haflinger mare and I laugh because as soon as I try it she buries her forehead in my side as though saying OK dummy, I'm with the program, let's do something interesting! :D

I give CA credit for showing people how to keep horses out of their space and putting together a simplistic program that is easy to follow. He may have saved some rank beginners from getting hurt.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2012, 01:21 PM
I think it's a little strong to call him a fraud. (He may be a major capitalist though, charging a boatload of money for his products. They all sell those 'stick and string' things and you can make one by tying a grocery bag to a stick.) Anyways, I think the flexing thing does teach them that they can get a release from you. I taught it to my Haflinger mare and I laugh because as soon as I try it she buries her forehead in my side as though saying OK dummy, I'm with the program, let's do something interesting! :D

I give CA credit for showing people how to keep horses out of their space and putting together a simplistic program that is easy to follow. He may have saved some rank beginners from getting hurt.


I don't.

John Lyons taught women to run horses in the round pens.

Parelli taught women to use an Amish buggy whip.

and now

Clinton Anderson teaches women to "flex" their horses.:no:

Give me a break from all of them.

There is nothing about him or his program that is not crap.There is no "release" taught to these animals as their owners/riders are mostly not horse trainers and just think it's cool to bend the horse to their foot and the one with the most bend wins...

bleech.

they lack feel and tact and any judgement as to when to STOP "flexing"....

they lack any judgement as to what this majikal "flexing" does...

They have no idea what and when this "flexing" did have a practical application and why...

(anyone wanna shoot a guess?)

it is at best obnoxious like a crest release in English riding and at worst the Dressage rollkur...

in any case you'll never see a horse of mine afflicted with it.

Tamara

farmgirl598
Jun. 18, 2012, 01:23 PM
Flexing causes the horse to relax. Might not work with all horses, but it certainly did the trick for my gelding. I started him myself at age 12! I followed Clinton Anderson's instructions somewhat, and found it to be very useful. But that's just me. As far as the biting goes....I wish I knew what to say. If it were me.....I'd pop him gently when he bit. PRAISE him when he flexes and does not bite. He will learn to associate the discomfort of the "pop" with the bite, and will enjoy the praise he gets ehen he doesn't bite. It might take time, but he WILL get it eventually....

fillytracks
Jun. 18, 2012, 01:36 PM
I feel like the flexing CA does, when on the ground, is more for obedience and preparation for doing the exercise in the saddle. I have never seen CA hold his horse's head in those positions for a long time like those who practice Rolkur in dressage do. I do think this exercise can be effective. I've had to start a handful of horse's by myself and the flexing is very helpful in the beginning of training, especially when getting them to stand still when you're on them for the first time and mounting. With all of these horses though, the flexing gets phased out pretty quickly as they learn.

For Very stiff horses this exercise may take a while. But you don't have to crank the horse's head around to it's side to start out. Just ask for some bend in the neck, without moving hooves, then release. I don't think asking a horse to bend like this is detrimental - horse's reach around to scratch their sides or get flies in the paddock. Of course though, if a horse is or was injured, this may not be the way to go. Every situation is independent.

As for your horse, if you position yourself in a good way (that's hard for me to explain) you make it so he can't bite you. Stand towards his flank with your belly button facing about inbetween his flank and shoulder. Your hand closest to his face should have the rope. Instead of taking your hand up to his withers, lower your hand a bit to get some bend in your elbow. Stand pretty close to his body. I usually put my other hand over their hip or something so I'm very close. Then when he turns his head to bite at you, the side of his face may hit your elbow - causing him to run into you. Of course, you can't ask him to bend too much because your elbow will be in the way. You may have to be ok with a very small give on your horse's part. If he gives to your pressure release right away.

The other thing I would try is releasing the pressure earlier. Is there a point when you flex him before he bites when he's actually giving? If so - that's a fabulous opportunity, just release the pressure as soon as he gives before he bites. Now, if he comes around to flex teeth bared, ready to chomp, this may not work. I also agree with what someone else said - about not flexing a whole lot so he doesn't get sour on it - or get worse on it.

Best of luck with your horse :)

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2012, 02:17 PM
I feel like the flexing CA does, when on the ground, is more for obedience and preparation for doing the exercise in the saddle. I have never seen CA hold his horse's head in those positions for a long time like those who practice Rolkur in dressage do.

so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

I have...it's gross

Tamara

JFJ
Jun. 18, 2012, 03:58 PM
I know some people don't like him and that is fine. So far what I have been doing has really helped with this particular horse. I think any "method" can be done wrong and therefore not be benefical to the horse. It is a competely differnt way of doing things then I have ever been taught but I find it really interesting. Also I was hesitant to buy the equiptment (halter, rope, stick and string) because I felt anything would do, but I was going to go to a clinic and it was required, so I broke down and bought the stuff. I have to say it is really quality stuff and the halter makes a huge differnce. The stick and string take a little getting used to but now I really like it much more than a standard lunge whip.
I wound up not being able to participate in the clinic but I went to watch and I really loved it. I've worked with horses my whole life and worked as a groom for and International level Jumper rider and ridden really nice horses, so I'm not some idiot, lol! I think you can always learn something, even if it's what not to do.
farmgirl598 that is what I am trying to do, I just wasn't sure if there was some expert advice as how to handle it.
fillytracks, it's hard to release early or stand out of the way, because he will just stay bent and if he can't get me he bites himself!! He is getting better I just wondered if there was something I hadn't thought of!

fillytracks
Jun. 18, 2012, 06:43 PM
so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

I saw him live at one of his Wahl Walkabout Tours... but that was it. I didn't see him doing anything terrible while he was out. So I have no idea what he does "behind the scenes". His methods have helped me with my horses and I am thankful for that. I don't think it's healthy for anyone to "obsess" over one trainer. there's so much to learn out there. And I guess my point is that I feel just because someone uses some CA methods doesn't mean they are doing "western rolkur" or anything else abusive. Of course, they could be, but many of the CA/natural horsemanship followers are softies likely to get run over by their horse I think.


I have to say it is really quality stuff and the halter makes a huge differnce.

I agree the rope halter makes a big difference - but it's best to switch them back to a nylon halter once they know what is being asked and they get lighter on the line. The rope halter is so effective with pulling horses for a reason - it hurts.

7HL
Jun. 18, 2012, 06:56 PM
Flexing the way that Clinton Anderson does it, is both stupid and detrimental to horses.

You NEVER saw the real cowboys do this in the old days and you will NEVER see it today in the real ones either.


He is a fraud.Walk away.

Tamara

Clinton loves Flexing. Saw him at RTTH and he was flexing that poor horse to death. It's his fix for everything.

airhorse
Jun. 18, 2012, 07:04 PM
He may call it flexing, but it looks more like avoidance to me.

SwampYankee
Jun. 19, 2012, 10:41 AM
I saw his show on TV one night, and I must say I didn't like the look in the horses' eyes AT ALL. Yes, they were focused on him alright--but in an obvious state of pure apprehension.

While I fully recognize that some methods as strong is these may be useful, even necessary, when you've got that "hard nut to crack," with a horse who already has a willing mind and is trying to please I think it's just WAAAY too much.

I'm saying this because I own a filly that was broken in with methods very similar to some of these, with whom I've had to back way up and work on building her trust. She was looking forward to each ride with the demeanor of one anticipating an assault, and I recognized that identical expression on Anderson's horses on that TV show.

fillytracks
Jun. 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
While I fully recognize that some methods as strong is these may be useful, even necessary, when you've got that "hard nut to crack," with a horse who already has a willing mind and is trying to please I think it's just WAAAY too much.

Absolutely agreed. My young horse didn't take to CA's method well at all! So I use very little of it with him. With my other horse - a pushy mare - I don't know what I would've done without a form of natural horsemanship.

englishcowgirl
Jun. 19, 2012, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6381936] This over-flexing of horses nowadays confuses me. I don't see the point, especially in a western horse. Just looks good I guess. QUOTE]

All horses should know how to bend, otherwise you are riding a stiff board. Have trained some of those that were owned by people who didn't understand why the horse should bend and they are aweful rides until they have learned. I cannot imagine a cowhorse that can't bend or a reining horse. The horse cannot build a proper topline if they move incorrectly and the horse will have more wear and tear issues due to that. Without bending you do not get collection, which is important in any horse. All horses english or western should be working from their hind, thats the basis for dressage. Many riders don't know what lead they are on in the canter or even what a posting diagonal is but that does not make it any less important.

For the OP's horse, he may be stiff and a bit sore from stretching. Imagine how it can feel if you stretch out too much, and thats exactly what he may be feeling. Take it easy and in small amounts until he gets used to it!

LookmaNohands
Jun. 19, 2012, 01:29 PM
Flexing the way that Clinton Anderson does it, is both stupid and detrimental to horses.

You NEVER saw the real cowboys do this in the old days and you will NEVER see it today in the real ones either.


He is a fraud.Walk away.

Tamara

THIS.

In spades!

JFJ
Jun. 26, 2012, 12:37 PM
LOL, I'm not looking to become a "real cowboy". But i'll say don't knock it until you try it. Horses learn it really quickly and it's not about being cruel to them at all. They learn to do what you want with just a small gesture and with out touching them. I simply wanted to see if there were any people more familiar with it then me.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 26, 2012, 01:43 PM
LOL, I'm not looking to become a "real cowboy". But i'll say don't knock it until you try it. .

yeah like padded horses and rollkur and bleeding and tieing down or up heads or maybe drugging or lunging something to death.. ?


yeah.

what makes you think any decent person would need to "try" anything that deep instinct told them was inherently wrong ?


Tamara

PeteyPie
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:03 PM
He was a nursemare foal so he was mainly hand raised and a little too comfortable with people.

Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.

BarbB
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:23 PM
There is no "release" taught to these animals as their owners/riders are mostly not horse trainers and just think it's cool to bend the horse to their foot and the one with the most bend wins...

they lack feel and tact and any judgement as to when to STOP "flexing"....

they lack any judgement as to what this majikal "flexing" does...

They have no idea what and when this "flexing" did have a practical application and why...

it is at best obnoxious like a crest release in English riding and at worst the Dressage rollkur...



I agree. I have only attended (briefly) one CA clinic. He was doing a pretty good job of showing a captivated audience how to clean up a horse's face with clippers. I got bored and wandered around the building to find his rig and his helpers doing the lunge til dead method of preparing horses to be good little mannequins. I left.

I have had to deal with a dangerous little behavior that some idiot taught my horse. We have put it behind us but I was sent a snippet of a CA training DVD showing teaching this. I am sure he did not think through the consequences of teaching an aggressive behavior to a reactive TB instead of to his usual very passive stock horses.

He may be a trainer, but he has no more concept than the rest of the NH marketers about HOW to teach the general public without causing more problems than you are solving.

And JFJ, I understand you are looking for a quick fix to a specific problem - can't help you there, because my advice would be to stop doing it - but to tell yourself that you 'are not interested in learning full body flexion' means you cut yourself off from learning something that could be very useful to you and your horse.

danceronice
Jun. 26, 2012, 06:27 PM
Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.

That was my thought when the OP said "hand raised." I would guess it has relatively little to do with the activity and more to do with his being a spoiled brat early in life.

And OP, if you're "flexing" by just having him bend his head around (I've seen like one CA video, and while I wasn't aghasted by it it wasn't especially appealing) but I actually just spent the morning watching a friend's session with a Lyons-certified trainer. Now, that was all mounted work and it was about 50/50 horse/rider training, but any 'giving' and bending he had them do was brief and focused on moving the HIND end, except when he briefly demonstrated a shoulder-in on a horse he'd had in training longer. And if anything he had a hard time getting the rider (a relative beginner) release quickly enough. None of it was done with the intent of keeping the horse bent or flexed for extended periods of time, until they got annoyed with it. It was mostly about making the horse (whom I've ridden and who can be a bear about plowing along on the forehand) get his butt in gear, literally, and give more to the aids. If the horse is biting, he's not really learning anything except to turn his head and bite.

katarine
Jun. 26, 2012, 06:35 PM
his latest infomercial features some singer named Chris Cagle. Now Chris is funny, and he tries hard to do all this ground work stuff right, but the longer I sat and gritted my teeth, the more I came to realize his biggest win is in defeating horses. I think he gets them so sore in the atlas and poll from teaching them to yield their butts by snatching their faces off- um yeah. By the time they are done the whiplash effect is in full play. How many have freakin' concussions when he's done?

unbalanced, stiff, and snatchy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eCDyF4Qulk

By the way, where is that colt he managed to harass into attacking him at RTTH? Anyone know?

quarters n paints
Jun. 26, 2012, 07:09 PM
That lunging video doesn't really bother me that much. I don't think the corrections are out of line. The horse is obviously new to it, so I would hardly expect him to be light and balanced in his first lesson. He's teaching the horse not to lean on him. After having a big horse with a stud chain over his nose about rip my shoulder out of the socket, I can see the benefit. What I've noticed is that horses who are taught to be light on the lunge line tend to be light on the bit to as you go into their training because they've learned that yielding to pressure is what we are asking them to do.

I don't follow any trainer 100%, I pick and choose what works for me, but I have to say a lot of the methods I've tried have worked.

LookmaNohands
Jun. 26, 2012, 07:56 PM
One snowy winter’s day two years ago when I was snowed in, I amused myself by googling, each separately, these names followed by the words “train wreck.”

Pat Parelli
Craig Cameron
Clinton Anderson
Linda Tellington-Jones

Aside from a few listings about people of similar names and ACTUAL train wrecks, the results were surprisingly vast, eye opening and even shocking.

There was nothing on LTJ. But the others had many listings. Clinton Anderson by far had the most hair-raising ones. Most of them having to do with the road to the horse.

There was a lot to read and that was two years ago. All I could do then was shake my head. I am guessing there is a great deal more now.

I do not like him or his method but that is not based on what. I found that day.

JFJ
Jun. 26, 2012, 09:44 PM
Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.

I agree that a lot of his mouthiness has to do with being handraised. I got him when he was about two months old (his mother was a nursemare) and he has just turned 9 years old. He is not mean but if I had to do it all over again, I would have changed some things on how I handled him. He IS a spoiled pet, he rarely gets worked and that is something I am trying to change. I think he is bored and needs a job, lol! He really likes the ground work and I am just starting him undersaddle again. It's just given me a different direction to go with him, we are not looking to compete anywhere. I am not blindly following CA, but I have found it very useful and interesting. Again, he is NOT aggressive, my kids can sit on him bareback and they hang all over him. They know he can nip and they have to watch him.

englishcowgirl, I never meant to imply that I wasn't interested in getting him to bend his whole body, we are working on that too. I think the word "flexing" is like saying "drawreins" to some people, lol! I am not riding around cranking on him, he is a pleasure horse and by that I mean I ride for pleasure! Not a "pleasure show horse"! He will probably never set foot in a show ring! Most of the time we are on a completely loose rein just wandering around!

Tamara, I was warned about you! But your posts give me a chuckle so I won't block you!

lookmanohands, I'll do a google search like you said, but I doubt it will change what I am doing. Because I am hardly a blind devotee on anyone! I'm not into Parelli, not sure who CC is, and I'm not into LTJ. PP and LTJ are both a little "out there" for me, but to each their own! :)

katarine
Jun. 26, 2012, 10:06 PM
If you have RFDTV, turn it on when CA is on. that video I posted is mild, I agree- but the horse is counter bent, crossfiring, and getting bopped in the face. I think that's just a little unfair and frankly, he couldn't care less.

I've watched him warm up his own reiners with their chin firmly planted on their point of shoulder. At a trot. As in physically bumping their own chin with their shoulder, for circle upon circle upon circle.

Turn on the latest, with Chris Cagle snatching his own horse around by the chin. It's just hard to watch.

CA is no horseman. He sells gadgets. and that flexing business is just another gadget.

katarine
Jun. 26, 2012, 10:11 PM
How I assessed him earlier in my life:

Saw him at Road to the Horse when he managed to make an untouched sweet 2 YO attack him when he turned his back. He truly makes me queasy.

What he does that I like:
blocker tie ring for pullers
trailer loading is fine (but they all do the same stuff so that's not unique).
he is too hard on horses and 100% one size fits all. I can't abide the man.

With that said I've cliniced with Ray Hunt (4 day horsemanship clinic), Larry Whitesell (gaited work), Leslie O'Neil Olsen (dressage) and Lynn Kimble-Davis (dressage). I like Martin Black, Craig Cameron (he's ok, I don't have the shine for him I once did but he's funny as heck and a good cowboy), and the lesser known Jon Ensign.

Clinton's not worth crossing the street to see. He wants a horse sucked back and off the bridle, ready to whoa. I like them balanced and forward and eager to go, but honest. Big difference.

goneriding24
Jun. 27, 2012, 08:35 AM
A little off topic, but if you wanna see someone who is truly scary, watch some guy named Dennis Reis. I watched him the other day, just for grins, and he was working an Andulusian (sp?), who seemed to be pretty mellow in the first place. I wondered what would happen to anyone who tried that stuff with, say an OTTB?? If it wasn't so serious that someone could get really hurt, I say it would be an entertaining sight to behold. Really, though, it wouldn't be that funny, I truly thought this stuff he was showing was over the top dangerous.

kewpalace
Jun. 27, 2012, 10:52 AM
A little off topic, but if you wanna see someone who is truly scary, watch some guy named Dennis Reis.Even scarier ... Ryan Gingerich. :eek:

betsyk
Jun. 27, 2012, 11:24 AM
I know absolutely nothing about Clinton Anderson but I've known quite a few horses that get mouthy/nippy when stressed. History of this particular horse aside, that could be a piece of the puzzle. Figure out what's stressing him out.

craz4crtrs
Jun. 27, 2012, 11:25 AM
so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

I have...it's gross

Tamara

I am with Tamara, there are a lot better clinicians/cowboys. Buck Brannaman, Chris Cox, Curt Pate, Bryan Neubert, Greg Eliel....I have taken clinics from both Bryan and Greg. No comparison to CA. There are lots of good clinicians out there besides CA.

I audited a CA clinic, it was horrible. All these people cooing and saying how wonderful he was, and I saw the poor drafty with both eyes swollen shut because he was in the handler's "space". Poor sweet guy had no idea what they wanted, he was just get wapped in the face with a stick. If CA would have given that horse just a few seconds to think and let it work out what the handler wanted, but CA wanted the horse to "react". I am betting that horse needed a lot of time to get over that clinic and "training". Hopefully the horse wasn't too fearful after that.

So keep looking for other methods or consult a good trainer.

Vermilion
Jun. 27, 2012, 12:34 PM
Note: I didn't read all of the above posts.

All of the "trainers" out there that base their method off of moving the feet is really about commanding respect in one way or another. In theory, it's quite a natural response for the horse since that's how they interact with each other. The question about that is, does the horse-horse response actually translate well to the horse-human response.

HOWEVER, what I didn't like about what I saw with CA's method was that he gives the horse input and expects the horse to give the right answer...eventually. I feel sorry for the horses in the beginning. Once they know what he's asking for it's a different story. I believe you should try and set an animal up for success first by showing them what you want before asking the question, if that makes sense.

spotnnotfarm
Jun. 27, 2012, 12:43 PM
If CA would have given that horse just a few seconds to think and let it work out what the handler wanted, but CA wanted the horse to "react". I am betting that horse needed a lot of time to get over that clinic and "training". Hopefully the horse wasn't too fearful after that.

So keep looking for other methods or consult a good trainer.


I think this is one of the problems with many of today's tv trainers. The horse must respond NOW! They are not teaching people to respond to the try. My trainer is big about waiting for it to happen. Today we were trying to teach my husbands horse the beginning of a turn around. She had me set it up and WAIT on him. I am not sure how many tiny circles we made but he finally got it. The wait time got shorter and shorter each time I asked. He was not over stressed or anxious. He was given plenty of time to figure it out.

goneriding24
Jun. 27, 2012, 01:45 PM
I think this is one of the problems with many of today's tv trainers. The horse must respond NOW! They are not teaching people to respond to the try. My trainer is big about waiting for it to happen. Today we were trying to teach my husbands horse the beginning of a turn around. She had me set it up and WAIT on him. I am not sure how many tiny circles we made but he finally got it. The wait time got shorter and shorter each time I asked. He was not over stressed or anxious. He was given plenty of time to figure it out.

Yep, yep, yep!! I can see that in my mind!!

Seriously, horse training isn't rocket science. But watching some of the TV trainers, they make it hard somehow. Watching a good trainer is like watching paint dry. Pretty dull most times. But that wouldn't pull in the dough, I'm guessing.

aktill
Jun. 27, 2012, 02:25 PM
The other great thing about "method" trainers is that it's easy and convenient to package things up and sell them in a book or video.

They then throw in enough pseudo-psychology to convince people that if the horse isn't responding "correctly" they're being stubborn/bratty/difficult etc, and at minimum to keep doing the exact same thing or at worst to up the pressure.

Saves the student actually having to learn to think outside the "method", after all.

Why think of the horse as having needs that aren't being met (fault of the teacher) rather then just think of them as being difficult (fault of the horse)?

To each their own.

lovemyappy
Jun. 27, 2012, 02:36 PM
@JFJ..... congrats for teaching your horse "ground manners"..... I had a similar problem with an "unstarted" 3 yo old gelding that did not have much "human" contact.... he also nipped when I would "flex" him around...but then again he would nip.. He was always mouthly with wanting to carry around his lead rope.... but then again, he was only 3...and horse are social with each other and do nip each other... I would rib him with a quick smack to the belly and then continue flexing him a few more times... most of CA's methods work for me. I currently have a retired 12 YO 4-H hunter/jumper mare that had no ground manners whatsoever..... asking a 1100lb horse to be respectful of my space and on the ground is what we all want. Asking my mare and gelding to stand quietly at the end of their lead ropes helps them focus on me. Most peole watch CA work a horse that has no respect for ANY human. And of course it can be a little harsh....I have been to CA clinics and watch him and his staff help 15 people and horses do his method... I was quite impressed with them. I have also been to a Brian Neubert colt starting clinic, and that can be quite harsh also. Starting out slow and know the release of pressure for any activity you are doing is good horsemanship.......Good luck with you horse....

RedMare01
Jun. 27, 2012, 03:11 PM
I think you can take bits and pieces from any trainer and make it work for you and your horse. The rub is that if you, by yourself, is doing the training, you must have some sense of feel and common horse sense- i.e. be able to read the horse and know if what you're doing is working or not. Including when to push and when to stop. That's not something that can be read or taken out of a book.

As for CA himself, I saw him here at Equine Affair several years ago. He was disasterous, IMO. He was "training" a two/three year old barely broke mare and I think he scared her out of her mind. The poor thing was literally dripping sweat from head to toe. I left...it was obvious she was menally fried and I had no respect for him. I pity the owner of that horse and what they had to deal with after.

SunshineRose
Jun. 27, 2012, 03:33 PM
I agree with RedMare about you can take bits and pieces from any trainer and make it work for you and your horse. I am not a super fan of CA, but I have to say when I got my mare about 16 years ago, she was almost 3 years old and had horrible ground manners, pushy, mouthing, nippy, pulling on the halter, lead rope, etc... I did use CA methods for ground work and lunging for respect. To this day, she has great ground manners. She is almost 19 years old and people still comment how good she is on the ground. I never did any further then his ground work methods, so I can't really comment on anything else his does. I have never seen him in a clinic either. Who ever methods you decide to use will benefit you to have a well mannered horse. Good luck with your horse.

rmh_rider
Jun. 27, 2012, 05:39 PM
I am not a fan of any of these folks.

Tamara in TN and Lookmanohands, yup agree with ya'll. It is rolkeuring western style. And a bunch more things.

I did the flexing on my arab, just like on tv. Over and over and over. Did it help under saddle - nope. But what it DID do was hurt my upper back severely. I have had lots of chiro'ing to fix it.

I know somebody who trained their horse the CA method and then some, due to her insecurities of riding a horse. She has all the books and tapes and tack. Ok, she was SCARED to ride. So she rp'd this weanling to 3 yr old horse SO much horse now has leg issues, well pelvis issues and front end issues, and wow a sour attitude, and lazy to beat the band. Also when ridden the horse the rider can pretty much beat that horse until it bleeds and it is so overly desensitized it will ignore you. Seen it, quite a few times. Sad. But that horse can sure run the rp, and play "do this 5,000 times" until the owner is satisfied the horse can do "it" and she is no longer scared. The horse has to be nagged over and over and over and over. Oh, is that a fail in the CA method. Don't be a nagging mother he has said.

Got another friend when she gets on her horse she does the side to side to side to side thing. Ok, horse does well in the side to side thing but as for the going forward, the horse pays no attention to pressure on her nose. Oh guess horsey wasn't taught that. Oh, owner has to do the no bit thing, so horse gets rubbed horribly on her nose, yanked also harshly (seen it) and owner gets sore arms too from all the pulling back. But by golly the horse goes side to side to side to side many times over and then some. But by golly ask horsey to back, nope, lots of problems.

With my current riding horse, not my arab, I did NONE of this. And she is lighter in the bridle and off the leg than any horse I have ever had. She has text book backing skills, and she can turn on less than a dime if I asked her too. I trained her more dressage, since I know more dressage now. Oh my I said that word on the western forum. But Tamara in TN said it first!

The side to side thing, waste of time. Get back to teaching your horse REAL skills, not a finger waving, nor a side to side to side to side, or the rp'ing them until you are comfortable they are so tired they will not buck or swish their tail.

Mr horsey bite me on the foot while flexing(which I do not do much if any of it), somebody is gonna get their face slapped, or . . . more if it continues.


Yes, to each their own.

LookmaNohands
Jun. 28, 2012, 09:03 AM
Anyone know why he seems to lunge his horses incessantly? I have seen a few of his shows on HRTV and seems to do this always until the horse is dripping wet, sides heaving and completely exhausted.

I work all the time with difficult horses and don't have to resort to exhausting them. Just wonder why he does.

JFJ
Jun. 28, 2012, 12:25 PM
From my point of view, I think they are doing alot at one time because they are doing for a tv show and want to show the results. They are bringing in people who are getting help for a specific problem and they aren't there for a full training board or clinic. He has said several times, that if the horse were there for training they would go back to the basics and start from the ground up. But he is trying to show different things to do that the owner is not doing. There are times when I've heard him say how much he would work a horse and maybe take them out twice a day, etc. I don't find it much different as far as work we expect hunters/jumpers but it's just different work.

I think people see what they want to see. I like him and what he does and I have yet to see anything to make me turn away. But maybe that is just me. The clinic I watched wasn't him but one of his other trainers and they didn't work the horses hard at all. It was a long day but a lot of the day is standing around watching others as well. Plus they took several bathroom breaks and a lunch break. But if you want to see the bad you will. Not to say I am blindly following, I tried a google search and haven't found anything terrible. (If you can find something, I'll look at it and see. The video before with the lunging...I saw nothing wrong with that at all. I didn't see any terrible "snatching" But then again it's all about perspective)
And most of all I've seen a positive turn in my horse and he is by no means getting worked to a dripping sweat or looking dead in his eyes.

Oh and alot of the work undersaddle is all on a loose rein, letting the horses stretch and relax. The "flexing" is not to get the horse round or on the bit. I'm not the best at explaining it and especially to someone who doesn't like him. "Flexing" is probably not the best word and people sure take offense! lol!

tradewind
Jun. 28, 2012, 05:21 PM
I think the problem with all of these folks is that their appeal lies vastly with middle aged women, who in theory always wanted a horse and wanted to ride, but when they actually had to handle said beast they are afraid and do not want to admit it. So CA with his attractive looks and accent and aura of being in control is a very comforting thing for them. The fact that they have no more clue about what is being done or why is a HUGE problem. He has made a boat load of money as have the Parellis and others but I am not sure how they all sleep at night.

katarine
Jun. 28, 2012, 07:03 PM
From my point of view, I think they are doing alot at one time because they are doing for a tv show and want to show the results. They are bringing in people who are getting help for a specific problem and they aren't there for a full training board or clinic. He has said several times, that if the horse were there for training they would go back to the basics and start from the ground up. But he is trying to show different things to do that the owner is not doing. There are times when I've heard him say how much he would work a horse and maybe take them out twice a day, etc. I don't find it much different as far as work we expect hunters/jumpers but it's just different work.

I think people see what they want to see. I like him and what he does and I have yet to see anything to make me turn away. But maybe that is just me. The clinic I watched wasn't him but one of his other trainers and they didn't work the horses hard at all. It was a long day but a lot of the day is standing around watching others as well. Plus they took several bathroom breaks and a lunch break. But if you want to see the bad you will. Not to say I am blindly following, I tried a google search and haven't found anything terrible. (If you can find something, I'll look at it and see. The video before with the lunging...I saw nothing wrong with that at all. I didn't see any terrible "snatching" But then again it's all about perspective)
And most of all I've seen a positive turn in my horse and he is by no means getting worked to a dripping sweat or looking dead in his eyes.

Oh and alot of the work undersaddle is all on a loose rein, letting the horses stretch and relax. The "flexing" is not to get the horse round or on the bit. I'm not the best at explaining it and especially to someone who doesn't like him. "Flexing" is probably not the best word and people sure take offense! lol!

Keep watching. I already said that video is not the devil, wish i hadn't posted it. Watch how he has Chris Cagle work his horse. It's just plain awful. It's on RFDTV, they are running the fool out of it. If he doesn't eventually make your skin crawl, wellll....

Also, a lot of his older, rougher videos are no longer posted. He's cleaned up his rabbit trail. But God Forbid you hand him an Arabian LOL

FWIW, nowhere will you see what happened at RTTH when that unstarted colt tried to eat him alive. A colt he'd previously described as a very kind and sweet colt whose small stature would make him an ideal ladies or child's horse down the line. But he harassed and provoked and pushed on him doing ground work that when he turned his back, that colt lit out after him, teeth bared, out for blood. The gasps in the audience alerted him of the danger, and he turned and caught him across the chest with a dressage whip.

Baby colts don't go from sweet and trying to get along...to trying to kill - meaning come get you and maul you- without damn good reason.

MelantheLLC
Jun. 28, 2012, 08:30 PM
I think the problem with all of these folks is that their appeal lies vastly with middle aged women, who in theory always wanted a horse and wanted to ride, but when they actually had to handle said beast they are afraid and do not want to admit it.

Ah, the flabby, stumbling, helpless, aging, misguided Middle Aged Woman, source of so many of the world's great problems and an embarrassment to handsome, competent and all-knowing young people everywhere.

What business do they think they have with horses? They should all stay home and clean their floors. :rolleyes:

Tamara in TN
Jun. 28, 2012, 08:31 PM
The gasps in the audience alerted him of the danger, and he turned and caught him across the chest with a dressage whip.

Baby colts don't go from sweet and trying to get along...to trying to kill - meaning come get you and maul you- without damn good reason.

yep and I was there and saw it as well...

the little SOB about got his lunch eaten for him

Tamara

katarine
Jun. 28, 2012, 08:40 PM
Ah, the flabby, stumbling, helpless, aging, misguided Middle Aged Woman, source of so many of the world's great problems and an embarrassment to handsome, competent and all-knowing young people everywhere.

What business do they think they have with horses? They should all stay home and clean their floors. :rolleyes:

Whatevah...I'm 41 and fat- and I think these women who won't ride but will clinic and groundschool and buy equipment and blog and post online endlessly about their special bonds rather than take real lessons and actually RIDE....aren't doing their horses or their dreams any favors.

After all, what 10 yo horse crazy girl daydreamed about lungeing for respect? Or running a horse sideways down a fenceline with a 20' leadrope and 100 dollar halter?

MelantheLLC
Jun. 29, 2012, 12:10 AM
True, it seems to take being an adult of a certain age to get all bent out of shape about "respect."

JollyBadger
Jun. 29, 2012, 01:15 AM
Whatevah...I'm 41 and fat- and I think these women who won't ride but will clinic and groundschool and buy equipment and blog and post online endlessly about their special bonds rather than take real lessons and actually RIDE....aren't doing their horses or their dreams any favors.

After all, what 10 yo horse crazy girl daydreamed about lungeing for respect? Or running a horse sideways down a fenceline with a 20' leadrope and 100 dollar halter?

My SO and I watched a CA show on RFD-TV a month or so ago. He had one of his followers - a woman who fit the "typical NH Guru Groupies" description - take her horse up and down some terraces on the obstacle course out in a wide open field.

Once she seemed to master the concept of handwalking her own horse up and down, he had her make the horse go up and down the steps while she stayed at "ground level" with plenty of slack in the lead rope/training line. I'm talking about that loooong drag-the-ground looping slack.

At one point in the exercise, the horse got almost to the top of the steps and turned towards her, jumping down right in front of her. If he'd gotten any closer, he'd have landed on her. CA didn't say a thing about what had just happened, how she might have prevented it, etc.

I'm still not sure what this was supposed to accomplish. I don't know if the horse ever figured out what he was expected to do, either. I finally just changed the channel to H2 and learned about all the things Ancient Aliens did for human civilizations. It all makes just about the same amount of sense.:confused:

tradewind
Jun. 29, 2012, 04:46 PM
Just to be clear, I am a middle aged woman...I was not implying middle aged women should not ride, I was merely pointing out the demographics of their clientele....middle aged, non riders who get a horse, get over their heads, think these charlatans make sense and spend years and tons of money on the ground so they dont actually have to climb in the saddle which alot of them are truly afraid to do....they are ripe for the picking.

Macimage
Jun. 29, 2012, 05:11 PM
so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

I have...it's gross

Tamara

If you have some time, could you post what you saw behind the scenes?

Thanks!

Beverley
Jul. 1, 2012, 12:30 AM
Never mind behind the scenes, at least as far as my take goes. Watched him at WEG for about 10 minutes- all I could stand, frankly- improperly standing still while sending a horse around him and switching directions constantly- basic lack of knowledge of how to longe a horse properly and basically either clueless or just doesn't care about the crippling torque he puts on the horse's joints with his 'training.'

Used to watch him on tv from time to time, but honestly grew tired of watching him work the snot out of young horses- sweating and heaving as he sits on top saying what he's just accomplished. In fact what he had just accomplished was just frying a horse, mentally and physically.

Back to behind the scenes in passing, if what Tamara has to share is anything like what the Pat P has been known to do over the years, I expect it isn't pretty. But sadly, it's profitable.

7HL
Jul. 1, 2012, 08:01 AM
from: http://www.equestriantraining.com/clinton_clinic.htm



"My primary customer is a middle-aged woman, between 40 and 50 years of age. [Their] kids are out of high school, usually they’re a baby boomer--kids are out of college, they are recreational riders, trail ride. They love their horses. They would like to get along with their horse better and feel more safe and confident when they ride and on the ground."


This is who Clinton is teaching to. He has an avid following. Those that love him do and those that don't really don't.




Does he have any tips for teaching the over confident rider; riders with the attitude that than can perform a particular skill when in fact, they can not? He says to tell the student, "... you need to listen to what I have to say. If you don’t agree with it, that’s fine, you don’t have to come back for another lesson. But, if you are here for a lesson, you need to do what I tell you to do and respect what i’m saying because I’m trying to help you." His tone is very matter of fact, and not punitive. "If you don’t want to do that, you won’t hurt my feelings but this is the last lesson we are going to have together." He seems to believe that honesty is the best policy when he says, "Because, otherwise you’re just wasting your time and their money."


Clinton doesn't care, what those that are critical think about his methods. No minds will ever be changed here, for those that follow him.

ezduzit
Jul. 5, 2012, 03:29 PM
It sounds to me like your basic problem is his lack of respect
for people. I don't think you'll achieve that thru flexing; especially if he takes advantage of you by biting/nibbling, etc. Can you line drive him? That is a great way to school them in a way that commands respect. Of course, there are ways to be a jerk in the lines too.

You probably should start over with ground manners, getting out of you space in the stall, cross ties, etc.

Doing any exercise ineffectively so it opens the door for misbehavior is worse than doing nothing at all.



He's not hurting he is a jerk, lol! That is why I am trying this method. He was a nursemare foal so he was mainly hand raised and a little too comfortable with people. He is a major space invader and he is constantly trying to nibble on me no matter what we are doing. And no I don't hand feed him treats. I'm not looking for full body flexion, it is just an exercise to get the horse to listen to you.

Fillabeana
Jul. 5, 2012, 08:56 PM
so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

I have...it's gross

Right on. Absolutely.

I have not seen him live or behind the scenes. I have seen him on TV, with an obviously 'edited for time' video, in which the horse doesn't get it yet...then skip ahead to where the horse is breathing hard, sweating hard, and doing his level best to get the he!! out of CA's way instantly if CA asks something of him.
My interpretation of this, is that behind the scenes, CA has been doing something over the top, abusive and gross.
I have not ever, ever seen something from CA where he develops a feel with a horse, only ever developing an escape, a 'comply immediately' response from a horse. That kind of training results in a horse with a big callous or numb spot, a horse that might react politely and immediately but never really wants to be with you, just to be with you.

A horse is supposed to follow a feel, not escape the pressure immediately.
All I have ever seen from CA is compliant horses, and no, that is NOT a compliment! That may look, and feel to some folks like the horse is light and responsive, but it is really only the horse getting out of your way, pronto, so you don't hurt him again.
If a horse is following a feel, he is yielding and staying with you, feeling back to you. If he is escaping, he is getting out of your way immediately, and is not staying around mentally so he can feel back to what your intent is. If he doesn't respond to a feel, you can get firm, but if you only ever get firm, you'll never get a feel going.

Fancy That
Jul. 5, 2012, 11:09 PM
Fillabeana - If I could "LIKE" your post, I would like it times a thousand :) You really know what you are talking about. Very very refreshing to hear this POV on COTH (it's not common)

thank you!

LookmaNohands
Jul. 6, 2012, 07:49 AM
Right on. Absolutely.

I have not seen him live or behind the scenes. I have seen him on TV, with an obviously 'edited for time' video, in which the horse doesn't get it yet...then skip ahead to where the horse is breathing hard, sweating hard, and doing his level best to get the he!! out of CA's way instantly if CA asks something of him.
My interpretation of this, is that behind the scenes, CA has been doing something over the top, abusive and gross.
I have not ever, ever seen something from CA where he develops a feel with a horse, only ever developing an escape, a 'comply immediately' response from a horse. That kind of training results in a horse with a big callous or numb spot, a horse that might react politely and immediately but never really wants to be with you, just to be with you.

A horse is supposed to follow a feel, not escape the pressure immediately.
All I have ever seen from CA is compliant horses, and no, that is NOT a compliment! That may look, and feel to some folks like the horse is light and responsive, but it is really only the horse getting out of your way, pronto, so you don't hurt him again.
If a horse is following a feel, he is yielding and staying with you, feeling back to you. If he is escaping, he is getting out of your way immediately, and is not staying around mentally so he can feel back to what your intent is. If he doesn't respond to a feel, you can get firm, but if you only ever get firm, you'll never get a feel going.

Yes!
There is a BIG difference in a horse that responds because he trusts you, and enjoys what he is being asked to do and a horse who reacts because he is afraid of what will happen if he doesn't.

Fillabeana
Jul. 6, 2012, 04:37 PM
Thanks, guys.
I do know that there are others around COTH who do have a clue ;)


There is a BIG difference in a horse that responds because he trusts you, and enjoys what he is being asked to do and a horse who reacts because he is afraid of what will happen if he doesn't.


I call this, having a horse choose freely between 'sucks' and 'sucks more'. Most horses given the choice will choose 'sucks'. And then their "training" will come undone, because they're not particularly at ease with their choice.

People think that this is what they're supposed to be doing, when they are 'Making the right thing easy, and the wrong thing difficult'(as per Ray Hunt). Problem is, they don't realize how this really works. Bill Dorrance said," You don't want any part of making things difficult for the horse". Not many people realize that Ray Hunt and Bill Dorrance were in perfect agreement on this. The horse has to have enough pressure taken off of him, so that he can think through what is going on and find the answer for themselves, and feel good about finding the answer. 'Difficult' taken the right way, means that the horse is emotionally comfortable enough to work through trying to find another answer. It doesn't mean that you are harassing a horse until he does what you want him to do.


A horse who responds because he trusts you, will fill in for you and take care of you in situations where you can't lead. (For instance, when I have a migraine and can't think straight, somebody else is going to have to find the cows in the forest, and my horses are glad to do it.)
A horse who responds through escape isn't going to help you out much when things get sideways. He's going to save himself in a storm, and not worry about when and where you hit the ground.
My horse comes and gets me off the fence (or a stump, or the tailgate of a pickup truck, or a 4-wheeler) because he wants to go somewhere, go do something with me. He doesn't come get me because his other option is to get run around the round pen until he is spent. Sure, he stands still, parallel to me. But what you have to look more closely for, is that he's actively putting the saddle right close to me, so I can slide on without reaching, or thumping down on his back. He's actually trying to facilitate me getting on, not just standing where I tell him to. (I don't tell him where to stand, in fact- he finds the footing and places the saddle to where it will be closest to me.)

I can't recommend that anyone go learn to train a horse from any of these trainers on RFD-TV who sell DVDs. However, I sure have seen some 'followers' of these clinicians, who have used timing and feel within the 'games' or 'exercises' they've mastered, and they put together a nice picture and a real partnership, some real horsemanship. But then, I also have seen some 'ruined' horses coming out of these programs, who need a total rehab to be safe to ride and be around again. It's all about timing and feel. These TV cowboys (and I do know that these guys can get an awful lot done with a horse, and in most cases manage a lot more horse than I'd ever be able to) aren't teaching timing and feel as the objective, they are teaching recipes of 'mastery' of specific tricks. Unfortunately, what most folks are looking for is a recipe, and horsemanship just doesn't work like a recipe does!

fillytracks
Jul. 7, 2012, 01:55 AM
A horse is supposed to follow a feel, not escape the pressure immediately.
All I have ever seen from CA is compliant horses, and no, that is NOT a compliment! That may look, and feel to some folks like the horse is light and responsive, but it is really only the horse getting out of your way, pronto, so you don't hurt him again.
If a horse is following a feel, he is yielding and staying with you, feeling back to you. If he is escaping, he is getting out of your way immediately, and is not staying around mentally so he can feel back to what your intent is. If he doesn't respond to a feel, you can get firm, but if you only ever get firm, you'll never get a feel going.

I'm so glad you posted this Fillabeana, I would like it as well if possible, haha. I really like the way this is worded and makes complete sense. I have used CA's method - mainly longeing for respect. I never completed any series, took pieces I needed.

I also have to agree with most people on here about how hot he gets his horses... Tiring them out to accept something always bothered me a bit. The more I think on this topic the less I like CA, haha. I never did get my horses as hot as he does... Never had too. Also I feel like that can't possibly be enjoyable for them! I hate cardio, can't imagine someone pushing me to that point!

Anyways, again, very happy to read this conversation. Something deep down has sat weird with me for CA for a while, and I never realized what it was until reading this thread. Great discussion.

Fancy That
Jul. 9, 2012, 07:23 PM
good for you, Fillytracks!!! Listen to that little voice inside.

I am 100% in agreement with Fillabeana on this topic. And like you, I HAVE used alot of CA methods over the years - I started experimenting with this type of horsemanship in about 1990 with John Lyons. And I was an EX HUNTER PRINCESS, who just got a 3 year old halter broke Morgan to play with:)

Anyways - fast forward to today - I really really prefer the Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Jack Brainard, Buck Brannaman philosphies and approach. It IS about offering a good deal to the horse, it's about "waiting" sometimes....not always getting harsher or escalating or using more force or more exertion for the horse. It is about DIRECTING HIS THOUGHTS...his mind will manifest in his body. If you don't have your horse's thoughts/mind, if he's not WITH YOU, if he's not getting your IDEA, it will show up in his body....with a brace or tightness or even a part of his body crooked or bulging or leaning or y ouc an see it in how he places his feet.

It's fascinating. I love this stuff more and more. I still enjoy Eventing and love XC jumping, but I've eased off on competitive "showing" (h/j) and much prefer working on this stuff. I still do enjoy the low key Horse Trials and Hunter Paces though!!!


I'm so glad you posted this Fillabeana, I would like it as well if possible, haha. I really like the way this is worded and makes complete sense. I have used CA's method - mainly longeing for respect. I never completed any series, took pieces I needed.

I also have to agree with most people on here about how hot he gets his horses... Tiring them out to accept something always bothered me a bit. The more I think on this topic the less I like CA, haha. I never did get my horses as hot as he does... Never had too. Also I feel like that can't possibly be enjoyable for them! I hate cardio, can't imagine someone pushing me to that point!

Anyways, again, very happy to read this conversation. Something deep down has sat weird with me for CA for a while, and I never realized what it was until reading this thread. Great discussion.

Fillabeana
Jul. 9, 2012, 07:26 PM
Tiring them out to accept something always bothered me a bit. The more I think on this topic the less I like CA

The horses are not accepting something, they are accepting that the other choice (like, say, running around the round pen a lot) is less fun than the 'something' CA wants them to do. If they get un-tired, they don't accept it anymore.

In the February 2011 issue of Western Horseman, Clinton Anderson talks about his 'Road to the Horse' experience.
The article says:

"He says that year [that Chris Cox won instead of Clinton Anderson] he spent too much time desensitizing his horse-a big part of his training method' and did not put enough emphasis on getting his horse handling better."
and

"If you don't get them tired enough, they'll buck you off in front of 8,000 people."

What is being said between the lines, is that CA is busy tiring his horse out, and making it think that it really can't do anything about these things it doesn't like- instead of getting his horse OK with something new and getting the horse past the bother.
Desensitizing can be done the right way, where the horse becomes OK with what you are doing, or it can be done the wrong way, where the horse learns that there's nothing he can do to get rid of the bothersome thing the 'trainer' is imposing on him.
A horse desensitized the wrong way will usually end up blowing up at something later on in his life, because he's been imposed upon, not taught that something is not going to upset or hurt him. People get really into 'it won't hurt you' and forget about 'it won't upset you', the horse won't be OK with something until it doesn't make him feel upset.


I never completed any series, took pieces I needed.
Yeah, these guys do have some things right.
I started out with John Lyons as my 'NH trainer of choice'. I really learned a lot. I got a truly troubled horse to turn loose in the round pen. (I thought the JL method was working well enough that when my friend offered me Tom Dorrance's phone number, I turned it down. Sigh.)
But I couldn't get farther with her. My own horse taught me how wrong JL's '3 second' punishment rule was; it didn't work for my horse.
And my sensitive cutting horse bred mare taught me about how his method of sacking out doesn't work, long term ;)- and that's the same way CA goes about desensitizing a horse.

I haven't met a 'method' for which I need to apply EVERYTHING to get things right with my horse, until I went to a Buck Brannaman clinic two years ago. I still haven't found anything that my horse tells me is wrong.

rabicon
Jul. 9, 2012, 09:50 PM
Bending at the stand is not bad. It really is a precursor also to teaching a one rein stop. Start at standing the walk trot canter. So if you get into trouble with a bolt you can regain control. If he is for sure not sore which doesn't sound like I'd kick him in the gut each time he tried on that side. I've never seen Clinton have this problem or address it so idk what he'd do but from watching his methods I'd say kick him in the gut lol. That's just what I'd do. I wouldn't kick him in the head or mouth because that would defeat the purpose. Clintons all about make them work harder if they are a butt so make him work he goes to bite automatically kick him forward. He will learn standing and flexing is much easier than trotting around a min.

rabicon
Jul. 9, 2012, 09:56 PM
Now I have used pieces of CAs methods like the one rein stop but I don't follow him. I follow classic dressage training. Now I did have a little issue with my horse where he was trying to get out of using himself in the trot and thought he would half canter half trot to get away but when he did that I asked up for the canter and he decided that the trot is easier and no problem any more and it only took a couple times. I think horses are smarter than some people think and can understand things we are asking and when there is the correct correction. My horse trust me 100%. Enough that he is low man on pole here and comes into the barn in middle of ever horse because he knows I'm not going to let them hurt him. Not the smartest on his part but he believes in me and that's always number one

Beverley
Jul. 10, 2012, 09:26 AM
Now I have used pieces of CAs methods like the one rein stop but I don't follow him. I follow classic dressage training.

Dressage instructors I've had the pleasure of learning from would have had a really interesting reaction if I ever had pulled a one rein stop in front of them.:)

Honestly I think that particular tool is way overemphasized as a crutch for the timid. I've never had to use it in 50+ years, even on panicked horses. Sure, nice to know how if all else fails- but it's way at the bottom and back of my personal tool kit.

rabicon
Jul. 10, 2012, 10:15 AM
I've never had to use it even on my one horse that would sometimes think he was going to run off but it was a controlled easy to stop run. But it is nice to have it just in case. You never know what trouble you may get in that other methods may not work. Just a tool among many

LookmaNohands
Jul. 10, 2012, 10:05 PM
The horses are not accepting something, they are accepting that the other choice (like, say, running around the round pen a lot) is less fun than the 'something' CA wants them to do. If they get un-tired, they don't accept it anymore.

In the February 2011 issue of Western Horseman, Clinton Anderson talks about his 'Road to the Horse' experience.
The article says:

and


What is being said between the lines, is that CA is busy tiring his horse out, and making it think that it really can't do anything about these things it doesn't like- instead of getting his horse OK with something new and getting the horse past the bother.
Desensitizing can be done the right way, where the horse becomes OK with what you are doing, or it can be done the wrong way, where the horse learns that there's nothing he can do to get rid of the bothersome thing the 'trainer' is imposing on him.
A horse desensitized the wrong way will usually end up blowing up at something later on in his life, because he's been imposed upon, not taught that something is not going to upset or hurt him. People get really into 'it won't hurt you' and forget about 'it won't upset you', the horse won't be OK with something until it doesn't make him feel upset.


Yeah, these guys do have some things right.
I started out with John Lyons as my 'NH trainer of choice'. I really learned a lot. I got a truly troubled horse to turn loose in the round pen. (I thought the JL method was working well enough that when my friend offered me Tom Dorrance's phone number, I turned it down. Sigh.)
But I couldn't get farther with her. My own horse taught me how wrong JL's '3 second' punishment rule was; it didn't work for my horse.
And my sensitive cutting horse bred mare taught me about how his method of sacking out doesn't work, long term ;)- and that's the same way CA goes about desensitizing a horse.

I haven't met a 'method' for which I need to apply EVERYTHING to get things right with my horse, until I went to a Buck Brannaman clinic two years ago. I still haven't found anything that my horse tells me is wrong.

As far as I am concerned what he does is put the horse into a state of learned helplessness. If you saw him on HRTV when he was reschooling a OTTB that is definitely what he did there. I have reschooled many OTTBs--mostly for eventing. Nothing he did with that horse was actually necessary to reschool one. Most of what he did IMHO was shameful.:(

Bluey
Jul. 11, 2012, 08:29 AM
Too bad that good, sensible, easy horse teaching doesn't make for good, exciting, wild TV, that is what most watching TV want to see.
Unless someone is really into horse training, watching normal horse training is booooooring, just as it is round after round of a hunter class, or reining run, or dressage class.

I think many of those TV horse trainers are entertainers and so need to have things happen, things anyone in the audience, even if clueless about horses, can find interesting.
What would that be?
Action, the more fireworks the better.

For those that say John Lyons is so kind, well, so did I think for long time, his books and magazine sure made it sound so.
Until I watched him on TV, where he had a fat, head bobbing lame on the front yearling in a round pen and spent a good hour running him around and speaking.
The horse kept laying down, was getting so tired, he would get him up again and run him some more.
He never accomplished anything, other than tiring that already quiet horse.
That is the only time I watched him do anything with a horse.
That was more than enough, crossed off my list of sensible trainers.:(

fillytracks
Jul. 11, 2012, 11:44 AM
The horses are not accepting something, they are accepting that the other choice (like, say, running around the round pen a lot) is less fun than the 'something' CA wants them to do. If they get un-tired, they don't accept it anymore.

This is what I meant... just didn't type it out. They "accept" it, but only because the other choice is more running around or pressure of some sort. Agree completely the horse isn't truly accepting anything, just trying to avoid you and your pressure. :)

Feeltheride
Jul. 12, 2012, 04:48 PM
JFJ this is what I did when I had a horse who was a terrible nipper due to the previous owner always fed it treats.

I never fed it treats except in his feed bucket. I then made leather straps with velcro to tighten them. I hammered small nails through the leather. I attached the leather straps on my wrists and attached some to the tip of my boots. So when I went to put his bridle on and he went to nip at me I put my wrist up held it there for him to hit on his own. It only took 2 straight days of this and no more nipping while bridling and girthing up.
When I went to ask for light flexion to left and right he went to biting I put my boot out he hit the nails.

So in this excerise he caused the pain at no time did he see me do anything to him. This only took a couple a days but I wore the leather straps and toe guards for 2 weeks just in case he sneek one in.

Good luck
Love my OTTB

rabicon
Jul. 12, 2012, 05:00 PM
Feel the ride did you really do that? I've never heard of such:confused: to me I do think your horse needs to know when not to do something. There should be a punishment if they bite kick etc. Nasty stuff not just for normal horse attitude. Just like children if they don't realize that they should respect their parents then why should they? I believe a horse needs to know who the alpha is but that doesn't mean beating them or abusing them or getting it out of fear. I think they should know their punishment is from you not from themselves. IMO. I have very sweet never offer a kick bite strike nada with any of mine and never have

Feeltheride
Jul. 12, 2012, 07:58 PM
Yes Rabicon I did and it stopped my horse from biting and getting in my space. It is a lesson that the horse realizes that he gets hurt if he tries to do his thing that I do not approve of.
It's like a mare who starts kicking at her foal to wean him. Or a Lion who gets splattered in the eyes by a Cobra, he won't look a Cobra in the eye again.

Love my OTTB's

rabicon
Jul. 12, 2012, 08:29 PM
Glad it helped. I just never heard of that. It's interesting :yes:

JFJ
Jul. 12, 2012, 08:40 PM
Feeltheride that is very interesting idea. He isn't constantly nipping but he does it enough that it is annoying! I don't hand feed him either and when I say he was hand raised, I mean he wasn't with his mother the full time he should have been but I didn't bottle feed him. He got his milk in a bucket. I don't think your idea is "nasty stuff" and I still don't think CA is the devil, lol! So he works horses a bit hard sometimes, a lot of people and different disciplines do too. I am not looking to do that however. You can still follow CA's method and I'm finding you really don't have to get after your horse much at all. They get it quick and then they just learn to do what you ask with a jesture or voice. I am all about the connection with the horse, I am in no way looking for a robot that is afraid of me. I find a lot of the ground exercises are fun for my horse, as I think I said before, he gets bored and needs something to occupy his mind as well as his chubby body! :)
I don't get a lot of time to ride because I am at home with two young kids and I don't like to ride if there isn't another adult around, just to be safe. So this has given me a way to work him when I can't ride. This will probably start another debate about "people who don't ride their horses" and that drives me crazy! I run a small retirement lay-up farm and the majority of the horses here do not get ridden, doesn't mean I love them any less. I also was lucky enough to get one the Grand Prix jumpers that I looked after given to me when he was ready to retire. Guess what? He was old, a little lame and done with showing but I jumped at the chance to have him as my own! I don't know why people think you HAVE to ride. Don't get me wrong, I love to ride but if I could never ride again I wouldn't stop owning horses. There is more to having horses then JUST riding. ;)

countrysunnie
Jul. 13, 2012, 09:06 PM
Oie Vay, if you've ever worked out you know you stretch before you go to the gym..lateral bending is about suppling, think about what muscles are being stretched when you stretch side to side...same thing....the old cowboys didnt do this? of course not, they did awful things to their horses to start them.. i wouldnt let an old cowboy touch my worst horse...look at old westerns to see how they rode...ackkk....marketing? of course its brilliant, thats how he makes a living. And the people complaining about a signature horse? Do you know how much dressage riders pay for those crazy warmbloods who are only trained to lower levels?? For one, you cant buy his horses unless you're a club member (so you know how he trains) and own the Fundamentals kit, again if you dont use the same method your horse will run over you in within 6 months...a horse is a horse..and you have to go meet the horse and ride it before they will sell it to you....I have met so many people who brag about their great trail horse...and have gotten on it...it doesnt give to the bit, has no stop without pulling on the reins, cant move off your leg and...I got off and said, no thanks....how many western pleasure horses are out there selling for the same price but can only go in circles? Is clinton perfect? No, neither is any other trainer...and Chris Cox is an ass...watch some videos and see him yanking on the horses mouth....Road to the Horse? were you there, did you hear how rude Parelli and Chris were to Clinton? and fyi he didnt gallop out of the arena, they opened the arena to have another horse come in so his horse would stop with it.....Besides, RTTH is stupid....they need to have an even that shows the best finished horse.....just my darn opinion folks....if I had the $$$ I'd buy a Sig. horse in a heartbeat...I'm tired of training someone elses problem!! Having said that, its still ok not to like him.

shohanna
Jul. 13, 2012, 10:00 PM
I have used CA methods for years with much success. Primarily the desensitizing which makes a horse both trust you and be somewhat bomb proof. I also appreciate the respect when being led and the ease with which mine load...point and go. Since I ride hunter, I don't use many of his methods under saddle except I do expect mine to give to one rein if asked.

I watch many different trainers and often learn new things. I think keeping an open mind to different methods is wise (with the exception of anything cruel). As far as flexing, once this is learned I only brush up once in a while. I also don't like to do a lot of lunging as I worry about injury. I always feel some of those trainers don't value their horses as they have so many if one is injured they move to the next one. My girls are pets first and I keep my horses for life so I find it important to be sure they last.

eventergirl2012
Aug. 24, 2012, 07:26 AM
Dressage instructors I've had the pleasure of learning from would have had a really interesting reaction if I ever had pulled a one rein stop in front of them.:)

Honestly I think that particular tool is way overemphasized as a crutch for the timid. I've never had to use it in 50+ years, even on panicked horses. Sure, nice to know how if all else fails- but it's way at the bottom and back of my personal tool kit.

How many unstarted colts have you taught to stop? to turn? What method do you use to train a horse what the reins mean? when starting a colt, what do you do?

Beverley
Aug. 24, 2012, 09:47 AM
How many unstarted colts have you taught to stop? to turn? What method do you use to train a horse what the reins mean? when starting a colt, what do you do?

A fair number. Not to mention reschooling spoiled horses. I'd have to sell you a DVD to explain it all:). But short answer, it starts with good basic ground work, they know what whoa is before you ever get on (longeing, in hand training, some use long lines), and you start on the turns with a basic leading rein, and progress from there.

re-runs
Aug. 24, 2012, 11:39 AM
"There should be a punishment if they bite kick etc."

In Feeltherides post, there WAS something to deter the undesireable action and change the horses mind; the horse came into his own pressure, the best training tool available is when the horse figures out the lesson on his own. She didn`t have to be the taskmaster or the villian. She set it up so the horse would find it. Horses learn by this exceedingly well.

Feeltherides, I hope I did not speak out of turn interpreting your post.

Unfortunately, Ray Hunt, Tom and Bill Dorrance are now gone but some of their students are still around. I was privileged to witness Ray Hunt on many occasions so I think I know what the real deal looks like so I can compare.

When attending a clinic, I try to get as close to the source as possible through someone who worked directly with Tom and/or Bill D. and who carries on their philosophy.

It is not a method or technique, it is a way of thinking and being. If each horse is an individual, then how could a method or a handful of methods work with every horse. But, with a philosophy, there is something always to draw from because the thought is that a person must treat each and every horse, not only as a horse (with a real knowledge of the equine species from observation and hands on interaction) but as an individual.

One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, "Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them." To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are "searching". The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA "methods" and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will "set it up so they can find it."

JFJ
Aug. 24, 2012, 01:42 PM
One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, "Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them." To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are "searching". The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA "methods" and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will "set it up so they can find it."
For me, it's not that I don't have a "true and sound foundation" I'm just trying a different approach. I've started quite a few young horses and have been the exercise rider for many top level jumpers. Would I use this approach on every single horse? No, but it's given me another way to look at how to handle different situations. I've never had to run my horse into the ground (which is a big complaint I hear of CA) for him to "get it". I don't believe you have to only stick to one way to work with horses, unless of course you want to be a certified CA, PP or whoever trainer. That's not for me but if that's what someone else wants to do, more power to them. I am open to see how other people do things, weather it's to see another way I want to try or something I would never do. I'm a firm believer you can learn something from everyone.

henrythe 7th
Sep. 24, 2012, 12:00 AM
I don't.

John Lyons taught women to run horses in the round pens.

Parelli taught women to use an Amish buggy whip.

and now

Clinton Anderson teaches women to "flex" their horses.:no:

Give me a break from all of them.

There is nothing about him or his program that is not crap.There is no "release" taught to these animals as their owners/riders are mostly not horse trainers and just think it's cool to bend the horse to their foot and the one with the most bend wins...

bleech.

they lack feel and tact and any judgement as to when to STOP "flexing"....

they lack any judgement as to what this majikal "flexing" does...

They have no idea what and when this "flexing" did have a practical application and why...

(anyone wanna shoot a guess?)

it is at best obnoxious like a crest release in English riding and at worst the Dressage rollkur...

in any case you'll never see a horse of mine afflicted with it.

Tamara



And your clinics are where and when and you teach women to do what?

Mtn trails
Sep. 28, 2012, 01:05 PM
One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, "Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them." To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are "searching". The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA "methods" and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will "set it up so they can find it."

How is this different from someone who uses a trainer? They are using that trainer's methods of teaching their horse just without the household name being thrown about.

I went to clinics put on by a CA clone when my horse was a youngster. Succeeding in frying her brain to the point she hates particular groundwork exercises. And yes, I am middle-aged but have owned horses my entire life and have yet to handle one that I am afraid of.

Roxie
Sep. 28, 2012, 01:33 PM
I have seen it and I can tell you if I whapped my lovely and full of personality TB mare in the face with a stick, she would turn around and whap me in the face with her hoof. I would deserve it. Kindness and firmness will get you much farther, and patience - yes patience.

VaqueroToro
Sep. 28, 2012, 02:36 PM
There's a difference between bullying the horse to get the behavior and giving the horse the tools to reach the correct conclusion. There's also a difference between knowing why something is done versus just doing something exactly how you saw it done without knowing why (or the appropriate timing behind it).

I know the bullying, but I'm trying to develop that feel to be able to give the horse the tools to figure it out on his own, so I'm not saying I know the answer. I think some of CA's methods are a little too harsh -- you could get to the same result with a bit more patience and allowing the horse to work it out himself.

In regards to the OP: what happens if you just ask for a bit of give to pressure in either direction, either while on the ground or in the saddle instead of drawing his head all the way around? Are you immediately releasing to any TRY by your horse to give to the pressure?

Can you do any bit flexions (a gentle gentle gentle wiggling/back and forth of the snaffle bit) to have him loosen his jaw, chew, and relax?

I'm also tempted to say to teach him how to yield the hind quarters (get him yielding by stepping under with the hind quarters not just stepping sideways), yield the forehand (crossing over in front while driving away from you, not just shuffling sideways) first to get him moving/bending correctly. Once you got him limber with both of those from each side, try the neck flex - he might be more agreeable and less nippy once his brain and body are on the same page.

JFJ
Sep. 28, 2012, 03:14 PM
He will over "flex" to the side when asked and either bite his side or me! He's a bit better now but I don't ask him to do it all the time and now when I do ask I try to reward him when he doesn't over flex or nip. I was just curious how CA would handle the situation. I would love to get my horse more supple under saddle, leg yielding and all that! That is always the goal!

Plumcreek
Sep. 28, 2012, 05:04 PM
One really good training tip I always keep in mind is to teach a horse to
"Hunt the Slack". Goes along that when they do what you want, you give them some slack, so they will try harder and do it right faster the next time you ask.

HillnDale
Sep. 28, 2012, 11:35 PM
First, I just want to say I'm so grateful for COTH.There's so much NH hysteria, and when it all first started I didn't think that much of it. After awhile, I felt like I'd been slipped crazy pills. Now, don't get me wrong, I've learned things from so-called NHorsemen and I think a good idea can come from anywhere. But there is so much that I haven't been able to make sense of, doesn't seem "natural" at all, or just plain seems like it's accomplishing exactly the opposite of what I want from a horse I'm riding. Lots of good opinions and perspectives on this thread.

Second, with regards to the OP:

I'm not sure what the right move to make is, because he is flexing but to hit him for biting seems to tell him not to flex. Any ideas?

I don't think that's correct reasoning. If you asked your horse to walk and he bolted instead, would you worry about pulling him up because, well, he did go forward? If I ask my horse to canter on the left lead and he gives me the right, is it close enough? Now, that doesn't mean the correct response is to lose my temper and wail on him. But your horse can't know he's made a mistake if you don't tell him. I definitely don't think there is a one size fits all for any horse or handler, so how you let him know, as long as it doesn't involve a trip to crazy town, is ok with me. I did want to add though - you mention when you flex him, he will then "overflex" to bite. So, what happened to your outside rein?

Meanwhile and unrelated, I agree with all those who said this is an exercise with questionable utility. I don't think it's normally physically damaging (assuming one is not trotting around like this. Sigh.), but I have gotten on horses who'd been flexed in this manner so much they had no concept at all of flexing through their bodies, tracking straight on a bend if asked, and were basically noodles who attempted to solve all of life's confusion by volunteering this one "right answer." Blech.

Never underestimate the power of a respected local, small-name trainer to make your life better. Nothing anyone every types out here will make as much sense to the recipient as a hands-on experience with a good teacher who has never done a Vetericyn commercial.

Shermy
Sep. 29, 2012, 01:02 AM
Not sure I would ever give CA the sole credit for the ORS. Not sure how that got started.

ORS is great for getting a horse loose and unbraced.

It is the start of teaching a horse to disengage its hindend, then crossing over the front is another great addition.

So many horses are locked in their ribcages. A horse that is locked is super stiff.

Dorrance, Hunt, Buck and the MANY others that trained under Dorrance and Hunt are the people that have the real knowledge.

Softness comes from a supple happy horse. Not a stiff and bracy one.

I wouldnt give CA or PP any credit. They have no real concern for helping the HORSE. They are busy selling stuff to mostly older woman that are scared of their horses.

Most of those woman have NO CLUE on feel, so have very little hope of actually creating an environment that will create a solid foundation to have a horse that actually would ever trust it's rider.

Feel is something that MUST be felt to be understood. No one can explain it IF you dont FEEL it.

If someone doesnt have a CLUE, no program or method will ever make that person get what a FEEL is, IMO.

Shermy
Sep. 29, 2012, 01:07 AM
BTW, if a horse EVER bit me, it would fear for his life for a few seconds after it happened.

IF you think your horse would EVER try to bit the head mare in its herd, you are totally wrong.

The fact that your horse BIT you, means he considers himself above you.

It is a respect issue! That needs to change to make it safe to be around him.

He probably would not think twice to run you over if something scares him.

Your space is HIS as of now. Please, correct that, just in the name for safety!

VaqueroToro
Sep. 29, 2012, 07:11 PM
IF you think your horse would EVER try to bit the head mare in its herd, you are totally wrong.


Totally OT here...
See, I'm not so sure about this one with some horses. Gelding is put out with another gelding who is very much the dominant of the two -- Gelding Two chases Gelding One off his hay with abandon to the point that neither ate for a very long time since Gelding Two thinks ALL piles are his; Gelding Two gives Gelding One a super hard time and enjoys driving him all over the paddock.

In the above scenario, Gelding One would start a nipping war with cruising in to bite at the hip, face, or neck before bolting off -- Gelding Two double barreled kicked Gelding One at least twice (while I was watching) and Gelding One got his jugular nearly ripped out (wasn't there for that one but the scar was something to behold), yet he'd still continue picking that nipping war.

Are some horses just beyond recognizing the boss and will keep poking the bear with a stick till they get themselves killed due to their upbringing (ie, not having been let loose in a herd environment when young to learn those dynamics)?

(I understand that MARE didn't appear in that, but even in a gelding band, there's always one dominant.)

Gestalt
Sep. 29, 2012, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE=VaqueroToro;6583035]Totally OT here...

Are some horses just beyond recognizing the boss and will keep poking the bear with a stick till they get themselves killed due to their upbringing (ie, not having been let loose in a herd environment when young to learn those dynamics)? QUOTE]

There were a few times I thought my smaller gelding was going to be kicked to death by my mare. The big gelding was boss and the mare was his lieutenant, some days it seemed like the little guy was trying to climb the rank chain. Bless his heart, he never stopped trying even though she would give him a whopper of a whippin'. I used to tell him "Someday you will be king". :)

CA seems like a complete a** to me. jmho :cool:

PasoPreferido
Oct. 1, 2012, 12:01 AM
I am VERY familiar with Clinton's method... I have seen almost all his videos. His method works 100% of the time if you follow his instructions and master the art of "timing".
He would tell you to return the favor with a mouthy horse. If he bites at your toe in the saddle (gently) jam your toe into his mouth and rub it around. Same thing if he bites your elbow on the ground or at the handy stick, etc. I have used this technique a number of times and if you are constant, it always works. Horses tire of it really quickly....
Look at it this way, when you were a kid and another kid poked you and you cried, the kid would keep poking you. If that same kid poked you and you poked them back they would figure out pretty quick that it's no fun to poke you. The same principle applies to horses.

Lori
Oct. 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
Yep, yep, yep!! I can see that in my mind!!

Seriously, horse training isn't rocket science. But watching some of the TV trainers, they make it hard somehow. Watching a good trainer is like watching paint dry. Pretty dull most times. But that wouldn't pull in the dough, I'm guessing.

Exactly.

Mtn trails
Oct. 5, 2012, 05:06 PM
My yearling took a swipe at me with her front hoof when I was working with her the other day; it was miles away so no chance of it hitting me, but she got told who was in charge of that herd right away for about 4 seconds; not with beating but scaring her with my voice. She backed away and learned her lesson. We went back to doing what we were doing with no drama and she was nothing but sweet and respectful. Youngsters (and some mature horses) are constantly testing their boundaries and you have to be on top of it or you'll end up with a monster.

Remudamom
Oct. 12, 2012, 10:49 AM
I realize I'm a newbie here, but I'm not a horse newbie. I had a big Quarter horse who was very spoiled. I like to blame the guys, I didn't start this one myself 8).

Anyway, he developed the bad habit of flexing around to nip or actually grab your jeans and try to pull you off his back when he was finished riding.

I finally tired of it and kicked his nose. I'm sure it hurt him but didn't damage him any. He stopped.

aktill
Oct. 12, 2012, 05:05 PM
I realize I'm a newbie here, but I'm not a horse newbie. I had a big Quarter horse who was very spoiled. I like to blame the guys, I didn't start this one myself 8).

Anyway, he developed the bad habit of flexing around to nip or actually grab your jeans and try to pull you off his back when he was finished riding.

I finally tired of it and kicked his nose. I'm sure it hurt him but didn't damage him any. He stopped.

Why not just block with the reins, rather then kicking him in the teeth?

If you're so late in noticing him moving that he has time to reach all the way around, you're pretty darn late.

VaqueroToro
Oct. 12, 2012, 08:08 PM
Why not just block with the reins, rather then kicking him in the teeth?

If you're so late in noticing him moving that he has time to reach all the way around, you're pretty darn late.

I think it's probably better for him to come into his own pressure, ie, if his nose happens to meet with the toe of your boot as he's reaching back to bite and you just happen to put a little extra ooph in it (not a full kick but a bit a quick jolt) it might make a better impression on him than simply preventing him from turning his head. The impulse to bite will still be there with a rein block -- thunking his nose on something pointy (your boot) will be a learning experience much in the way that it only takes one or two zaps from an electric fence to teach to avoid it (usually).

Remudamom
Oct. 12, 2012, 09:00 PM
Why not just block with the reins, rather then kicking him in the teeth?

If you're so late in noticing him moving that he has time to reach all the way around, you're pretty darn late.

It was quite an ingrained habit with this gelding. I did block him with the reins for a long time and he just kept it up.

I finally tired of the battle. He knew it was unacceptable and yet he persisted. I felt a stronger deterrent was needed. I did not kick him in the teeth, he just got a strong tap on his nose from the end of my boot.

I gave him every chance to stop the behavior. He choose to keep it up. Horses are not idiots. When he realized it was not comfortable to bite me he quit.

And was a lovely horse btw. Just a tad spoiled for a while.

Bethe Mounce
Oct. 17, 2012, 01:20 AM
I so wish I had bottled common sense a long time ago and sold it to the un-suspecting masses.....I would be rather wealthy! ;-) The NH "trainers" remind me of used car salesmen...way too slick. I went to go watch a Parelli clinic a long time ago. I thought I was at the circus with the spotlights and the blaring music. His horses are beautifully turned out, not a hair out of place, but his dogs....oh those terrific dogs he brought with him...to see them in action was far more exciting and "how did he do that" kind of atmosphere. There is no doubt any person involved with horses brings ideas to the table, those ideas are strictly a product of that person's experiences with a horse. Clinton Anderson and the rest of those guys are merely a product of their own experiences. What they have done though, is hire a marketing person who is SUPERB at their job and turned this NH stuff into a freakin' marketing machine that shows no signs of letting go. For that I applaud their efforts in making $$$. Bully for them but not so great for those who are persuaded to part with their $$$ for all the gadgets that come with "training" their respective horse. Watch how horses interact with each other in a herd and discipline accordingly. It better be swift and brutal or the behaviour you don't want will continue. Flexing....hmmm....the point to that would be?????? To pull a horses' head to your stirrup does nothing but teach him to turn at the withers thus becoming crooked just as wide hands cause a horse to become crooked. Yeah, I have seen the Anderson stuff on TV. Nah, not enamored of it. What he does to a horse, you damn sure cannot do to a mule or believe me...you WILL pay a price! ;-) I am not enamored of any of these NH people....Buck Brannaman....he doesn't tout himself, he has been more a word of mouth kind of advertising guy, no gimmicks. And...he tends to tell ya without smooth talking, exactly why your horse is the way he is....99.9% of every horses' "problems," is the owner. Horses are easy to fix, but getting the owner to realize why her horse is the way he is, well, that in itself requires a miracle. There is always the ONE break through by the owner that turns the tide. Horse does all that kind of teaching, I merely "supervise." At any rate, I just wish I had thought of what these NH people do first! ;-) I'd be rolling in the $$$$. ;-) Carry on guys...lots of good stuff here.

Bluey
Oct. 17, 2012, 05:27 AM
I so wish I had bottled common sense a long time ago and sold it to the un-suspecting masses.....I would be rather wealthy! ;-) The NH "trainers" remind me of used car salesmen...way too slick. I went to go watch a Parelli clinic a long time ago. I thought I was at the circus with the spotlights and the blaring music. His horses are beautifully turned out, not a hair out of place, but his dogs....oh those terrific dogs he brought with him...to see them in action was far more exciting and "how did he do that" kind of atmosphere. There is no doubt any person involved with horses brings ideas to the table, those ideas are strictly a product of that person's experiences with a horse. Clinton Anderson and the rest of those guys are merely a product of their own experiences. What they have done though, is hire a marketing person who is SUPERB at their job and turned this NH stuff into a freakin' marketing machine that shows no signs of letting go. For that I applaud their efforts in making $$$. Bully for them but not so great for those who are persuaded to part with their $$$ for all the gadgets that come with "training" their respective horse. Watch how horses interact with each other in a herd and discipline accordingly. It better be swift and brutal or the behaviour you don't want will continue. Flexing....hmmm....the point to that would be?????? To pull a horses' head to your stirrup does nothing but teach him to turn at the withers thus becoming crooked just as wide hands cause a horse to become crooked. Yeah, I have seen the Anderson stuff on TV. Nah, not enamored of it. What he does to a horse, you damn sure cannot do to a mule or believe me...you WILL pay a price! ;-) I am not enamored of any of these NH people....Buck Brannaman....he doesn't tout himself, he has been more a word of mouth kind of advertising guy, no gimmicks. And...he tends to tell ya without smooth talking, exactly why your horse is the way he is....99.9% of every horses' "problems," is the owner. Horses are easy to fix, but getting the owner to realize why her horse is the way he is, well, that in itself requires a miracle. There is always the ONE break through by the owner that turns the tide. Horse does all that kind of teaching, I merely "supervise." At any rate, I just wish I had thought of what these NH people do first! ;-) I'd be rolling in the $$$$. ;-) Carry on guys...lots of good stuff here.

I kind of disagree with some of that.

I was in on the start of those NH clinicians.
Was offered positions working with their dog and pony shows.
Gave that some consideration, but it felt like it was a bit like being the "barker" at a carnival.
You stand by the door, talking away, with a good spiel to get people to pay their dollar to enter the bearded lady's tent to gawk at her and you get to pull on her beard to see if it was real.:p

The problem I had, especially with the first ones running around the country giving clinics, is that they were abysmally ignorant of even the basics of horsemanship or teaching about horses.
It was so much about smoke and mirrors and groupies following them around, that many didn't know if they had a horse or a camel at the end of a leash.
It was about the humans, horses a mere handy prop.

Yes, they have come a long way, educating themselves along the way, but then, anyone could have done that by regular, traditional instruction with good, proven professionals in the horse world and how we have ended in an information age bar none the past few decades.

If we spend our lives learning and with horses that is imperative, you can't wing it by smooth talk alone, horses will tell on you, you have to walk the walk.
With horses, the older we get, the more we wish we had known then what we know now.
That is the way it is supposed to work, it takes lifetimes to learn so much that is out there.:yes:

Bethe Mounce
Oct. 17, 2012, 11:34 AM
No one horse person knows it all. As I have said many times, collectively we are wise, individually, not so wise. ;-) The NH thing has its place in the equine industry. It just doesn't have a place in my horse world, it's common sense. And I don't need a carrot stick to make my point. ;-) Just kidding. A horse is a horse....24/7 he eats and sleeps--he can give me an hour of his time! ;-) We put too many human emotions into a horse. He doesn't think like a human. I can see why people are drawn into the NH crowd. Riding/training is never about the horse, it's about the human's journey thru life and the horse is there to show you the way...he will always tell you who you are, but more importantly, who you are not but who you want to be. Cheers everyone, have a safe day!

Bluey
Oct. 17, 2012, 11:50 AM
Let me try to explain myself better.
I like that some went out on the road with their clinics.
I like what they had to say, because at that time, the ignorance was really abysmal in the areas and population they were targeting.
A bit better some than none, better learn how to communicate with horses in other than just inconsistent jerk and kick and seat of the pants.

Even with bad techniques, a good, sensitive, talented rider would still shine.
It is not rocket science to see what works and how to work with some finesse.

What I didn't like so much is that some went somewhat overboard, dismissing traditional training and using techniques in ways that sounded new, they were not so much, really, but were still rough around the edges, see above why, lack of technical skills, talent and finesse when self taught and worse, were not listening and learning as they went.:no:

Glad that finally, when enough were complaining, they decided maybe there was something after all to the old standard training techniques, really.:p
That is why I say, we could have avoided all that pony and dog show if they had themselves learned the so lacking basics well first.:yes:

VaqueroToro
Oct. 17, 2012, 12:00 PM
A horse is a horse....24/7 he eats and sleeps--he can give me an hour of his time! ;-) We put too many human emotions into a horse. He doesn't think like a human.

I agree, but trying to figure out how horses DO think and being able to calmly manipulate the situation using those "thoughts and motivations" does put the horse in better frame of mind about that hour or more he gives you. I'd rather my horse be mellow about being around me than get all wound up trying to figure out what the crazy monkey wants from him and why she's taking him from his food.

The rank beginners get mesmerized by these clinicians -- they make it look so easy. The problem comes from narrowly following any one of the "faiths" with exclusion of everything else, INCLUDING the fact that a horse is an animal with his own ideas about how to go about his life and often those ideas have absolutely no hint of being a part of anything you want. These methods encompass the HOW but not so much the WHY or WHEN (although some are a helluva lot better with the whys and whens than others).

There's not much money to be had with setting a total beginner out in front of a herd of horses with the one mandate of "watch and absorb" but there is something to be said for how damn effective a teaching tool it is if you have an open mind to it.

Attack
Nov. 13, 2012, 12:02 PM
My issue with the well known NH trainers is in the fact that they have people convinced not to ride their horses. Some of them caution against getting on the horse until he responds to every cue. I have even had local trainers tell me certain horses are not safe to ride, and should have at least "30 days more training before I attempt to ride" Malarky! That makes no sense to me, but then I am no arena rider. I like to get out of the arena and trail ride. Yes I spend some time in the round pen, or at the end of a lunge line. But most of my time is in the saddle. Otherwise, I would feel I was simply working with a large dog. :D

I use NH when I see an issue with my horse. Once I have remedied that problem, I move on. I see no need to continue to back a horse up with a "handy stick" when I can cue him with my seat while in the saddle and get him to back as far as I want. Nor is there a need to continue to try to get him to back up faster and faster. Hey, he backs up on cue, what more do I need?

So I see some NH'ers who seem to think we need to spend hours on the ground with our horses instead of riding. I am not about that.

Beverley
Nov. 14, 2012, 02:41 PM
I agree with you, Attack. Ground work is invaluable and has its place- but that place is 'preparation' for riding the horse, for me, and occasional reinforcement of items that pertain to the 'riding' part, if need be. I see people with dead broke, well schooled horses continuing to twirl them around before they get on and ride. The poor horses don't need the twirling and all that's being accomplished is unnecessary wear and tear on their joints.

MMall
Aug. 10, 2014, 07:40 AM
You need to take care of the biting problem, which is a dangerous habit.There is a difference between mouthing and biting and they can be handled differently.Biting must be handled in an aggressive manor and is handled better in an enclosed area like a round pen because when he tries to bite you, you have to come unglued but keep your distance so not to get kicked. A lunge whip works better because of the distance (please stay a good distance so you don't get kick).This could take more than one try.Now for the mouther you use a milder tactic, when he mouths I would holler (hey!!!) in a loud voice hug his neck rub his head and continue aggervating in this way until he has had enough, he will tell you he dislikes it but continue for 30 sec to 1 minute, use your own judgment,this may also take several sessions.
Saw Clinton in 1999 and he was flexing horse then.

Rumorhasit93
Aug. 10, 2014, 03:00 PM
I've been to doing some of the fundamentals with my bratty pinto, and my one issue is when I do flexing he always tries to bite me! Both on the ground and on his back. I'm not sure what the right move to make is, because he is flexing but to hit him for biting seems to tell him not to flex. Any ideas?

Hitting your horse is never the answer. I agree with the first poster, something use be hurting.

gaitedincali
Aug. 10, 2014, 03:52 PM
I would imagine OP either already has their answer or is no longer following this 2 year old thread.

WSTRNPONY
Aug. 15, 2014, 03:12 PM
I have to say I have the same problem with my horse. Very nibbly, I think it has to do with his short attention span. He'd rather play then do much of anything else. We're trying encourage a healthy work ethic. For me I've found if I focus less on one specific thing (IE bending right or bending left), and ask him to do other things intermittently, like a back, turn on haunches etc it works out a lot better. Ive also decided for him a release will happen when he stops playing around and trying to bit me (once his lips close and he looks more settled.) I keep my hand in a fist so he doesn't have fingers to check out. Keep in mind my horse is mostly just a nibbler, and has never actually bitten maliciously.

I'm using this exercise to teach my horse he can bend without moving around in a circle. The trick is to not over bend. Young horses usually need some help understanding that asking for a bend isn't the same as asking for a turn or moving off the rail. This is just one way you can teach a horse to bend.

Sonnybear
Feb. 22, 2015, 03:58 PM
Flexing also teaches a horse to give in to pressure. Horses learn when pressure is released so when they are fighting you then give in, you release the pressure. They learn that to relax brings release of the pressure being applied and to fight brings more pressure. Less is more...so with each flex they get lighter and lighter to your touch. If they are doing it easily then to keep doing the exercise is pointless. But some folks forget this part.

aktill
Feb. 22, 2015, 04:34 PM
It's alive!

...oh wait...

LookmaNohands
Feb. 22, 2015, 08:56 PM
Oh dear God. Not this again!

Must be the weather.

NoSuchPerson
Feb. 22, 2015, 10:38 PM
Zombie threads are popping up all over. Too many people stuck inside on their computers.

Dramapony_misty
Feb. 23, 2015, 10:22 AM
LOL, it took me to page 3 or so when one person replied something like "if I could LIKE you post, I would 1000x..." and I thought, "huh? but you CAN like a post...oh wait..." looks at date of the post...Oct 2012. :-P

Mosey_2003
Feb. 23, 2015, 12:49 PM
I'm pretty sure it's the "Similar Threads" box under the reply box, something pops up that looks interesting and you don't realize it's from 2 years ago ;)

La Gringa
Feb. 26, 2015, 10:38 AM
I have no idea about CA's methods but CA himself is a hottie.. very nice on the eyes. I would take one of his clinics just to be in the same arena as him. LOL OK back to the subject. :winkgrin: