THE ANSWER TO THE EARPLUG ???

[Black Market Radio]

I just phoned Mrs. Judith Werner from the AHSA rules committee, she is the chair person, and she said that even though it doesn't say specifically that earplugs are not allowed, but that they ARE considered an artificial aid (or whatever the term in the rule book uses, can't think of the EXACT phrase she used but it was the one in the rulebook) Anyway, she said her straight out answer was that they were illegal. So there you have it. If you don't believe me e-mail or call her and she will tell you the same thing.

[Black Market Radio]

I just phoned Mrs. Judith Werner from the AHSA rules committee, she is the chair person, and she said that even though it doesn't say specifically that earplugs are not allowed, but that they ARE considered an artificial aid (or whatever the term in the rule book uses, can't think of the EXACT phrase she used but it was the one in the rulebook) Anyway, she said her straight out answer was that they were illegal. So there you have it. If you don't believe me e-mail or call her and she will tell you the same thing.

[Ben and Me]

I still don't see what the big deal is. Why should they be illegal?

[Bertie]

Wow! You got through to an official working at the AHSA at 10:00 PM on a Saturday night? Seriously, if our officials are answering phone calls late Saturday night, that's great!

[Black Market Radio]

I called her directly on the phone number listed on the AHSA website right by her name, she was very nice and very helpful!

[jch]

Wow, then just about every horse that shows here in Texas has been illegal!!

[Bertie]

It's great that you were able to reach her so easily! Did you mention that the question was specific to hunters/jumpers?

[Bertie]

If she was correct, then I won't use them. No biggy. They are so benign, that I'm surprised they are illegal. But then, as a government employee, I understand that regulations don't always make sense! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bertie]

I agree, Devildog, if the AHSA defines artificial devices, and if ear plugs fall under that definition, then they fall under the regulation that limits or disallows the use of artificial devices. If it's silly that they're disallowed, then there could be a move to make an exception for ear plugs specifically.

[Jumphigh83]

Holy Cow!!! What a kettle of worms this opens!! Going back to last year, how many HOTY hunters (national and zone and local) have or had earplugs in??? Do they redistribute?? Set them all down??? Hold a special hearing??? This one takes the cake as far as the AHSA..This one phone consult just upended the awards for..how many years??....Is the rule retroactive or will it just affect the horses "caught" from today forward??? What a mess this could make if someone were persistant enough to persue it!

[Black Market Radio]

Hey, I am just telling you guys what I was told, and no, this isn't just ONE phone call, another person had called and recived the same answer. The problem lies in that the judges and stewards allow this to happen, and for some reason 99% of the hunter world had no clue that it was illegal. To me, it makes sense that it is illegal and just because it is not specifically stated does not make it legal. You can't expect them to go and list EVERY SINGLE LITTLE device because the list could go on forever and it would have to be updated frequently! So they made a general rule which covers well, EVERYTHING ARTIFICIAL. I would not hesitate to point it out to a judge or steward either. So now it becomes a moral issue. If the judges don't knock you down for it yet it IS considered illegal, and now I know for a FACT that it is, are you still going to do it? Or will you be the honest one that says that it's not legal so I am not going to use them? Bertie, I commend you for doing the right thing and I hope others will follow!

[Black Market Radio]

Here is the rule from the AHSA general rule book discussing artificial appliances:

All artificial appliances other than those permitted in division rules are prohibited (Exception: Reining Division). Bandages, tailsets, chains or other training devices are prohibited in the ring in Breeding/Halter classes. All artificial appliances other than those permitted in division rules are prohibited (Exception: Reining and Jumper Divisions)

The following is the rules for the Hunter Division:

CHAPTER IV. ATTIRE, TACK AND EQUIPMENT.

Article 2417. Tack.

1. Regulation snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are recommended. A judge may penalize for non-conventional types of bits or
nosebands.

2. Competitors may be refused an award unless they return to the ring for conformation or soundness with the same complete bridle in which they have performed.

3. Martingales of any type are prohibited in Under Saddle, hack and tie-breaking classes.

Article 2418. Equipment. Light pads and bar shoes are permissible, however, bar shoes indicate a weakness and in Conformation classes a judge may penalize accordingly. Boots, wraps and bandages are prohibited.
In the case of inclement weather competition
management may permit the use of bell boots.

No where in ANY of the Hunter rules does it state that ear plugs are permissable. But the general rules state that NO artificial appliances (hey, I got it this time!) unless Specifically stated by the discipline may be used.


[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Justbay]

I am not trying to start trouble but I think there is a lot more illegal artificial aid issues going on in the hunters than EARPLUGS!!

I see almost every horse with them, tack shops now sell them and I think alot of horses still hear through them...

I am suprised that so many people have an issue with this...If it specified as illegal, well that is different. Is it actually specified?

Personally, I really do not think that someone who has a horse with them in, versus myself who might not be "using", has enough of a competitive advantage over me by using earplugs. This is my opinion.

[Black Market Radio]

When I called she told me that ear plugs fall under artificial appliances. Read the rules above, it states that ALL artificial appliances are illegal, no, it does not SPECIFICALLY say ear plugs, but they fall under the general rule. Pot is illegal yet stores sell bongs. Just because a place sells something does not mean that it can be legally used at a recognized show. There are a great many things that need to be changed in the horse show world, and now many of you found out quite by accident that something that was common place is not legal. The truth is, no matter how you look at it, no matter how small, insignificant or dumb it may seem, it's not legal. Like I said, now it HAS become a moral issue. Stupid or not, it comes down to who is truly honest and who is not.

[Black Market Radio]

And just because you see almost everyone with them does not make it right. Yes, there are a lot more serious issues as well, and we have attacked at them, and we try our hardest to correct them, as seen with the weight issues and many of the rule changes that Snowbird and Pwynn have worked so hard on. But funny when it hits so close to home, everyone gets on the defensive!

[Bertie]

I'm thinking that maybe Mrs. Werner could have made a mistake. I haven't found a definition of artificial appliances yet, and it's possible that ear plugs are not an artificial appliance. (I mean, an "appliance"???)

In the Dressage regulations, we can assume that artificial appliances, as shown in Devildog's cite from the "General" section of the rules, are prohibited. In addition, under "Dressage" we have: "6. Martingales, bit guards, any kind of gadgets (such as bearing, side, running, balancing reins, tongue tied down, etc.), any kind of boots (including "easy-boots") or bandages (including tail bandages)and any form of blinkers, ear muffs or plugs, nose covers, seat covers, hoods are, under penalty of elimination, strictly forbidden...."

If ear plugs are considered appliances why would they be listed again, along with martingales, bit guards and any kind of "gadgets" that are prohibited? I assume this section is listing items that are prohibited in addition to "appliances".

Don't throw those ear bunnies out yet!!

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

Have you read the rest of the dressage rules yet LOL!! They are WAY more in-depth and specific than any of the other disciplines rules. Just because ear plugs are not specifically mentioned does not make them legal. Ask for yourself, I have also e-mailed the other committee members on this issue and I will tell you what they respond with. But so far myself and another person have contacted the AHSA DIRECTLY and gotten the same answer. If you REALLY question it that much then please call or write them yourselves. I don't understand why no one else has done this. Especially the people that are just as for ear plugs as I am against them and defend them so whole heartedly. Please, ask them. If you really want to know, ask. What can it hurt?

[Bertie]

You're right, Devildog. I did email the question to Mrs. Werner. Not that I don't believe you!!! I DO! But I want to get the answer in writing from her, after she's had a chance to check the regs.

(I do this at work all the time...It drives people crazy, but it sure helps to clear up fuzzy issues!)

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

When I talked to her she said she had looked over the regs! I am glad you are asking for yourself though! Good luck LOL! And thanks for believing me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bertie]

OMG -- This thread is a riot!--- LOL, I want to clear up a "fuzzy" situation....Jumphigh realizes that this could be another sad day in the hunter jumper world..- This could take down some of those big names that survived drug scandals, etc....all because of EARBUNNIES! Justbay isn't "using", thank goodness. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pwynnnorman]

Bertie, you're so right! This is a riot. Hoooeee! It's 1:30 Saturday night, I'm up waiting for a mare to foal and actually couldn't resist coming online to see who dug up what about the latest HOT TOPIC.

But, folks, do remember that rules aren't established arbitrarily. I'm actually quite gratified that someone somewhere in the history of the sport saw that it was necessary to draw the line somewhere. For example, how do you know that some enterprising trainer hasn't invented a type of ear plug that is 95% effective? Has anyone tested just how "benign" they are?

And, yes, it seems so very, very minor, especially since so many use them. Then, too, what's an extra inch or two, an extra ounce or so, etc., etc. on a gaited horse's feet? Such a minor thing.

This will actually be an interesting test. Jumphigh, you've gotten so worked up over several issues, here's one for you to use to test the system: protest the next time the hunter winner has earplugs in. You know what I think will happen: the "new" generation of powerul trainers will get together, like they did with the drugs and meds situation, and have an emergency rule change passed.

Devildog, I'm so relieved that you, too, see the parallel to the drugs and meds issue. Thanks so much for the follow-through!

[Bertie]

Well, it WAS funny....

I'm sorry, Pwynnorman, I can't get worked up into a debate over the moralities of earbunny use.

[Jennifer Alcott]

Devildog, THANK YOU for taking the time to call someone at the AHSA yourself and ask the earplug question! Why does it NOT surprise me that we can count on a Marine to find out the rules & regs? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (My husband was in the Marine Corps for 10 years, and now he's a civilian employee at Quantico.)

Thanks again for confirming what I was told, and I'll be interested to see the answers that everyone else who calls or writes the AHSA gets!

[Black Market Radio]

Ok, I just recieved this e-mail, so it looks like we may need to dig a little further!

I understand that you put on the Chron. board that I made a ruling on ear
plugs. This is not the case. You should get a ruling from the
Hunter/Jumper council or the AHSA office. What I told you was my
impression. I expect you to post this message on the board. Judy Werner

So now I will e-mail the H/J council and see what they have to say. I seriously thought this person knew for sure, but I was wrong. But she was very nice and I appologize to her for the confusion!

[Bertie]

Well, I think it's great that Mrs. Werner responded to us so quickly and during a weekend.

She wrote a similar message to me: "...I could find nothing in the rule book regarding "ear plugs" but I wanted her to check with an AHSA Steward. My remarks can not be taken as final and there should be a ruling from the AHSA Hunter
Council regarding this matter."

[Black Market Radio]

Thanks Bertie! Now, I have looked all over the NHJC website and I can't find anywhere that has someone's e-mail address, does anyone know how to contact them? I asked the people from zone 10, which is my zone, and I will post their response when I get it!

[Bertie]

Maybe on the AHSA website there's a way to contact the Hunter Council or a Steward?

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

That's where I am right now e-mailing everyone on the NHJC that has an address LOL!

[Jumphigh83]

If this wasn't so funny it would be tragic! What about bits? They are an artificail appliance. As is a saddle, martingale, SHOES, pads, gel pads, ear nets, stockings on the muzzle, draw reins, nose reins, bell boots, splint boots, caulks, belly pads.....is any of this sinking in??? Until we can ride a horse bareback and without a headpiece of some type, we are using "artificial appliances"! I bet Mrs. Werner would like to dissappear at this point..she will print a retraction wait and see..she will say that she isn't in the position to interpret the rules of the AHSA that can only be done through a protest and gearing situation! It will happen..I'm having a "vision" !!! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[Jumphigh83]

oops..I meant *hearing!

[Melissa]

I know someone who is on the Boad for the NHJA council thingy, and as soon as I here back from him I will let you guys know what he said.
I think it is ridiculouse that you guys are making such a big deal about it. It happens, there are way to many other things that you could be fussing over than 2 little pieces of cotton that help the HORSE feel more comfortable!!
Ear plugs might be illegal, and im not totally bashing you guys, but we will find out soon......

[Bertie]

I agree, Jumphigh -- is a gel pad an appliance??? Our 18 yr old, super-sensitive TB jumper won't want to hear that one!!! He's been happy with his gel pad for over a decade. We can't take it from him now!

I can totally relate to Mrs. Werner's situation --- Working for a governing organization, you can never know all the regulations by heart.-- You're asked a casual question that you think you know the answer to, and so you give what you think is the right answer. Trying to be helpful.

Then you look a bit deeper, and realize that the answer is not as clear as you thought, and the question was not just a casual one. She did the right thing to contact Devildog and myself to let us know that more steps must be taken before we get the real answer.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

I see where you guys are coming from, but I still believe that taking the time to train your horse is a better way and that ear plugs are just a "quick fix". My point is, if the rest of the horse world can live without them, why is it SUCH a nessessity in the Hunter World? If you have ever been to a rodeo, or any other western event, you would notice that there is A LOT more commotion and things going on and none of those horses wear ear plugs! Add to the loudspeaker the sound of cattle and people whooping from the audience and all that stuff and it gets nuts! Yet those horses sit there calm and cool like nothings going on. THAT is my point!

[Melissa]

Also, look at what those rodeo horses do!! THey RUN, TURN, or BUCK!!!!! yes they are great at their job, but they dont have to look like a million bucks doing.
The hunter world is judged on looks and perfromance, yes they may play favorites, and most of the time you must have the "in" look, but thats Hunters. If you love the sport, you grow with it, and hope if grows the right way. If it doesnt, you play along....or move on.
Dont take this offencivly, its just MOP

[pwynnnorman]

Folks, I'm willing to accept whatever the "ruling" is on the issue, but I will yet again repeat why, IMO, this is important: WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?????

Those of you in favor of ear plugs being legal, tell me how you would guide an organization with policing responsibilities when it comes to what, exactly, is an "artificial device"? What would you include, what would you exclude?

It isn't the plugs themselves--indeed, to focus on that only is to belittle what, for some, especially trainers trying to make their way and not knowing what they can or can't do (like the herbal thing, too, perhaps?)--and maybe as a result not being able to be as competitive as those who do know where the lines are (or dare to step over regardless).

Or are the lines *meant* to be invisible, so they can be placed hither and yon at will, depending on the group in power?

[Melissa]

And ear plugs arent neccessarily a "quick fix" my horse goes with them and without them. At WEF there was so much going on, between the tralier parked by the ring being walked in and out of, the houses less then 2000 feet aways getting roofs put on, I used them. It depends on how my horse feels. I do it because it makes him FEEL better. He can still hear, its not like we make then deaf or anything!!!

[Bertie]

Devildog, it's not that important to use them. But if they are allowed, I think many of the posters have explained why they're used. Here's an example...

Suppose you have worked very hard to qualify for indoors. You took time off from work/school to be there. Your family scrimped and saved to pay for the showing/traveling/lodging/etc. all year and now they're still paying. Your horse is a good boy, but he's young and green. He's never been to a big indoor show. He just has a couple of classes at this show and this is what you've been working for. You want him to have a good experience.

You go into the ring and it's big, bright and quiet in there. Your horse is being good, and suddenly some kids come flying/clamoring down the stairs at you as you lope up the line along the rail. Or a big ol' balloon drifts up to the lights and goes POP!!!! Or a dog starts yapping and it's magnified and echoed by the cavernous arena. If you were allowed to stuff your horses ears with something soft and benign, that MIGHT muffle these sounds a little, would you? If not, would you condemn someone who does?

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

Honestly, I would not. I would have never in a million years even thought of doing such a thing. I use only basic tack on my horse, a dee ring snaffle, a bridle and a loose flash cavesson, a well fitting dressage saddle, a PC dressage girth and a regular square pad. She has plain shoes on the front only. I put bell boots on for trailering and PC boots on when trail riding so that she doesn't get scratches on her legs. Maybe they should try and prove that ear plugs can help save the horses hearing, and then it should be adopted into all disciplines and people should be required to wear them too. And I wouldn't take a horse into a major competition until they were seasoned and ready. I would take them TO the competition to get them used to the environment, but if they were not ready, they would not show. Ad in Cutting, the performance and quality of the horse IS tested, as is with pleasure and trail classes. It is not all running around and bucking, although these shows have multi-disciplines going on at the same show, and those pleasure and trail horses look about as dead if not deader than some of the hunters with ear plugs! Trail is a lot like Hunters, they have obsticles and the horses have to look like they are dead quiet and just doing it like it's no big deal. And they even have a jump or two in the ring! It kind of started out as the same concept as hunters as well, encountering what obsticles you would see out in the field. Just like reining is a cousin to dressage, trail is a cousin to hunters. I am with Pwynn, where is this line? I too think it is a moveable one!

[Melissa]

Devildog, its time to step up and be the bigger person. You would not work all year to qualify and jsut take the horse and let it look. Thats ridiculouse, and you said that you wouldnt take a green horse there if it wasnt ready! PLEASE! Indoors cost a lot of money, and there HAS to be a first time! GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE! The horse will NEVER be ready unless you take it!! IT WILL NEVER BE A SEASONED HORSE UNTIL IT IS THERE AND SHOWS, and GETS USED TO THAT PLACE!!! This thread is getting to be outragiouse!!


[This message has been edited by Melissa (edited 04-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Melissa (edited 04-16-2000).]

[Justbay]

If only earbunnies were the "quick fix"...

[Black Market Radio]

Melissa, BEFORE YOU GO YELLING AT ME AND TELLING ME TO STEP OFF MY HIGH HORSE AND GET REAL go and read my other posts on the first ear plug post. I take my horse EVERYWHERE to get her used to show environments, and you better believe my horse will be darn seasoned at other events and exposed to lot's of stuff BEFORE she goes to a major show. I would not even ATTEMPT to qualify my horse for indoors UNTIL she was ready and not so easily distracted by everything. You TOTALLY missed my point that why is it Hunters that need ear plugs but everyone else who has just as much rucous going on at their shows doesn't? Why is it that a pleasure or trail horse can work quietly in a ring when nearby there are cattle going nuts and barrel racers running and people whooping and yelling and everything else? My point is, THEY ARE NOT A NESSCESITY. IF THE REST OF US CAN DO IT THAT WHY CAN'T YOU? THAT is what I am asking. I use no gadgets not even the smallest one on my horse. Why? Because I want to have a properly trained horse that can go quietly anywhere at any time when whatever is going on. So my answer to that question is still no. I would not stuff my horses ears because my horse would be exposed to it all BEFORE showing in the big time. That is MY opinion and if you don't like it or think I am on a high horse, then oh well. You can't argue and tell me that I would stuff my horses ears if I had scrimped and saved or whatever because my horse would not even start to show at major shows until she was ready to go WITHOUT anything but the basic tack that I ride her in everyday. THAT is why I take my horse to penning competitions and hunter/jumper and other schooling shows. So that she will be ready and know what is going on and already be used to the noise and surroundings when I start to show her in recognized shows. But then again, I am in no big hurry to win. I will not do whatever it takes to win. Can you fault me for that?

[jch]

We use ear plugs for some of our horses. It is not a quick fix. We don't do it to hurt our horses, rather we use the ear plugs to help the horses filter out what is unimportant so they can concentrate on what is essential. As the people in charge, we have to make decisions about what is good for our animals. We have to help them learn and adjust. Not every animal needs ear plugs, but for those that are more comfortable with them, it seems a disservice to refuse to allow your horse to have them. I would love to think that each owner knows what best serves the needs of their individual animal, and I would like to respect their decisions.

[Justbay]

Just asking, Devildog, by your last response, you are very emphatic that stuffing ears with cotton is BAD and you seem to be attacking the hunters.

Do you show in the hunters? If not, why is this so important to you? I show hunters and I could care less who stuffs ears with cotton. Some win, some don't. I do not think it is the cotton.

Curious...

[G]

Wow... this is so rediculous. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But those of you who criticize the use of earplugs - have you ever had that particular horse that is jumpy and spooks at every little thing? Those horses are darn hard rides, and scary sounds aren't going to make it any easier. What's wrong w/ earplugs then? They are not a quick fix at all. If I had a horse that got startled by loud sounds sometimes, he would have earplugs in right away. Like someone else said... you wouldn't want your horse to spook at indoors or Devon (where there is a fair going on right by the ring), would you?

[G]

Also... those of you criticizing the people who use earplugs... what *exactly* do you have against these people? Earplugs don't give you a jump on the competition or anything. Its fine to have your opinions, but why criticize someone unless you know the specific facts of why the horse has earplugs in?

[farmgate]

To use a platform of the use of "Quick Fix Ear Bunny Appliances/Devices" as a testament and example of "short cut" versus "real training" is IMO, absurd.

[Justbay]

Farmgate, I love it..."Quick Fix Earbunny Appliances.."

I can't stop laughing!!!

[Ghazzu]

I must say I am torn between utter amusement that so many folks are horrified that earplugs might be illegal (guess it depends o whose ox is being gored whether we want the rule strictly enforced,eh?) and sadness that so many people seem to find them an indespensible device.

These days, I ride Arabs mainly. A breed stereotyped as being hot and easily spooked.

A few years back, we showed dressage at an Arab show at a facility where, unbeknownst to the organizers, the day of the dressage, a tool and die makers trade fair was being torn down and packed up immedicately adjacent to the (outdoor) arena. There were forklifts beeping, large objects on pallets covered with plastic blowing in the wind, semi rigs blowing their airbrakes, etc. None of the horses seemed particularly interested, and one (mine, being ridden by a friend) was chased down the long side during his canter lengthening by a loose Doberman. (He didn't spook, possibly because he regularly hunted with hounds, and won the class.)
A week later, I attended an Irish cultural festival, and, being a horseperson, naturally gravitated towards the Connemara Pony booth. As I approached, who should I hear but the judge from the dressage telling the Connemara folks about the show --"There were things beeping, and plastic blowing, and all kinds of stuff.And you know those little Arabs didn't look left or right; they just went right along and did their jobs. They'd have been peeling Warmbloods out of the trees."

What's the point of all this? If our little hotbloods can do it, so can your horses. It's called training.

[Melissa]

Devildog, what do you show in anyway, and besides, why is such a big deal to you wether people have them or not?!? If you train your horse so well, not saying you dotn just restating what you said, you dont have to worry, cause your horse will be listening to you. If your horse is going to be so well trained, it shouldnt matter whether the competition has them on or not, you should be good enough to beet that horse that has them!

[Melissa]

Another thing....you might not be in a hurry to sell your horse, but some of us kinda are. We dont have years to take our horses everywhere before we actually show, we have to expose them as quick as they can. Many trainers make the horses good the first year...so they have 1 year of spooks and earplugs, and can show the rest of their lifes...unlike haveing to take years to actually get used to it!!!

[Bertie]

Farmgate! "Quick Fix Ear Bunny Appliances/Devices"

I love it!!! All these years I thought you actually had to train a horse, and now I find out that all you have to do is stuff in a couple of ear bunnies and you're good to go!

[Flash44]

So if earplugs are illegal, and they made the ruling retroactive, they may as well send out the directory instead of listing disciplined names in Horse Show since that many people would be affected! Including me, but I had no idea ear bunnies may be illegal. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

[Black Market Radio]

I mainly show dressage but I will take my mare to Hunter shows as well for the experience. But I think that a horse who wins with ear plugs in over a horse without is not fair, I am sorry, that is my opinion. And yes, I did have a horse that was jumpy and spooked at every little thing. It does not take years and years, but it does take a little longer. I guess I am just of the classical mindset. There are MANY things that some dressage riders do/use that I do not agree with. I am not condemning you guys for using them if they are legal, heck it is your choice I guess, but I don't understand it and I would never use them. But what if they ARE illegal? Then what are you going to think. Here's the thing that I personally do not get so PLEASE do not flame me for not understanding. In some instances you guys are saying that they work wonders on certain horses and in others you guys say they barley do anything. If they hardley have an effect, then why use them at all? You guys totally miss my point and I say it over and over and over again that there are young horses in Western Events, at age 3 and 4 that are doing trail and pleasure classes without ear plugs. I just don't understand why you guys say that you HAVE to have them. Why do I classify them as a quick fix? Because of earlier posts that state that these horses are bothered by the sounds and so stuffing their ears helps calm them down. Well, so does giving them Ace. THAT is why I think of them as a quick fix. But that is MY opinion and it doesn't seem to be a popular one at that, but that does not mean that I am going to change it. I personally feel that no amount of equipment no matter how minute can replace real and thorough training. I don't think it is cruel and never did I say I thought that it hurt them, I just do not agree with them. Sorry if you all hate me now because I have a differing opinion from the rest of the crowd, I don't hate any of you for using ear plugs, but you seem to get on the defensive about them rather quickly and are quick to condemn me for not advocating their use! And so I have had to defend myself and my personal beliefs. I have not once personally attacked any individual on this board, but I have been personally attacked several times because heaven forbid I should not agree with a certain device. It's rather sad, I really enjoy some of the topics and the people on this board, I don't always agree with what happens on the board but whoa, watch out when you don't agree, because then people will personally jab at you and criticize you for having a different opinion. And the thing that gets me is, how many of you took the time to ask the AHSA about ear plugs? I did and then get criticized for it. I may take a break from this board for awhile because quite frankly I find it quite disturbing that a few of you personally attack me for standing up for what I believe in. I know you believe whole heartedly in using ear plugs as I believe whole heartedly in exposure instead! But I have not ONCE personally attacked a person and told them they were crack heads for using ear plugs. But I was basically told I was a crack head for even SUGGESTING that exposure would be an alternative.

[Melissa]

LoL, I guess I was mean, but I dont understand, if you dont show hunters, why is it such a big deal to you? And besides, its not hurting anyone, let the people who get placed 2nd to a hrose with earplugs post, dotn worry about it.

[snickers]

I have stuffed ears on many of my horses and as a groom stuffed those that I took to the ring.

I have also forgotten to do it. Except for one occation, you would never have know the stuffing was missing.

Personally, I think the stuffing if for the rider. They think the horse can't hear, pleeeaaasse. It sticks cotton in a horses ears will stop them from hearing, why do we still cluck?

[Bertie]

Well, I equate ear plugs to something like fly spray. Fly spray doesn't always do that much, IMO, but we use it anyway, in the hopes that maybe it'll help the horse's comfort, at least a little.

[Melissa]

THey may not work for your horse, but my Trainers PreLem jumper cant go out of his stall without them, he gets so nervouse. you put them in and he is perfect! And we know that they can still hear...duh!

[Black Market Radio]

Melissa, I plan on showing Hunters. THAT is why I worry about it. And if I DO place second to a horse with ear plugs then I WILL protest it. Your post about your trainers horse not being able to function properly without earplugs proves my point. Obviously they do something or no one would use them. As Pwynn stated before, suitability comes to mind. But that is MY opinion. And funny how no one has a viable come back for why other horses in all other disciplines can live without ear plugs and not have nervous breakdowns. But that Hunters just can't do without them because they will be bothered by the noise. That is what I am curious about, I have tried to understand it but my trainers whom I have worked with in the past and present have taught me hard work with no gimmicks, and it can and does work. That is why I just can't for the life of me justify it, and I am sorry for that! I am a firm believer in the least amount of gimmicks possible. The only thing I have ever used was a running martengale on my TB who would throw his head back and almost hit me in the face. But that was for MY saftey. My saddle is properly fit to my horse, so there is no need for other padding. Besides that, a gel pad does not affect a horses senses. Again, sorry if I do not have the popular opinion. I know where you guys are coming from, I just don't agree with it!

[Lily]

Devildog, if and when you do show in the hunters, I'd wait on protesting a horse with earplugs until we hear a more definitive answer as to their legality.

[Black Market Radio]

That is why I have been in contact with members of the AHSA and NHJC. I am trying to find out. Tomorrow I will call the AHSA and talk to a person whom a member of the AHSA committee suggested talking to. And also a member of the NHJC committee will bring it up in the next conference call. I guess ear plugs fall under the "grey area" of the rules, and no one really knows what to do with them!

[jch]

I'm being a little sarcastic here, but I wonder, are spurs, a crop, a saddle, a dressage whip, reins, or a bit artifical aids? After all the horse doesn't come equiped with them! My point is, we need to ride each horse the way that is best for that individual. We can't treat each the same as another because they are all different. I think that we need to respect one another and allow for some individual differences.

[pwynnnorman]

Wow, wow, wow!!!

This is, hands down, the most revealing thread I have ever, ever read.

Not only are many of you getting suspiciously defensive, but it is truly and utterly AMAZING and utter REVEALING how you absolutely refuse to answer my question: WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE, PEOPLE!!!!!!

You CAN'T answer that, can you? THAT's the problem--it isn't the bloody ear thingies at all. The problem is that you people are not willing to let go of an EXPEDIENT technique because to do so would force you to spend more time training and less time showing. By golly, isn't that at the heart of sooooo many issues this board has discussed: time vs. money, time vs. enjoyment, time vs. rewards. And you know what? It makes some of the other statements you make on other threads sound very, very hypocritical.


Devildog asked me to write up a rule change about the ear bunnies thing. Here's what I replied to her when she told me the AHSA people said they were unsure of the issue and that we should submit a rule change to resolve it:

Ha! In other words, they don't want to step in it.

Clearly, the plugs were meant to be illegal. No "rule change" should be necessary because there's no rule to change, is there? The applicable rule clearly states no artificial appliances or devices [except for those things Jumphigh Id'ed: saddle, bridle, etc.--BTW, Jumphigh, dressage REQUIRES the use of spurs because of what they demonstrate about the horse's training and submission), and ear plugs are undeniably artificial.

Anyway, though, I'd submit a change if the deadline weren't passed for members to do so. But think about it, Angel: if "they" aren't willing to admit that under the CURRENT rules, the plugs are illegal, how likely is it that "they" would EVER pass a change to make sure that they ARE illegal?

Nope, my friend. We've just caught them in yet another ill-considered, weak-willed, inconsistent position. You do realize that the mindset of the pure hunter people online can't even grasp why we're concerned? It's pretty hopeless, I'm afraid. They'll never get it because they'll never consider anything but their comfort and expedience. As long as the game is played in the way that they enjoy, they don't really care what the rules are!

[Clarke County]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Melissa, I plan on showing Hunters. THAT is why I worry about it. And if I DO place second to a horse with ear plugs then I WILL protest it. Your post about your trainers horse not being able to function properly without earplugs proves my point. Obviously they do something or no one would use them. As Pwynn stated before, suitability comes to mind. But that is MY opinion. And funny how no one has a viable come back for why other horses in all other disciplines can live without ear plugs and not have nervous breakdowns. But that Hunters just can't do without them because they will be bothered by the noise. That is what I am curious about, I have tried to understand it but my trainers whom I have worked with in the past and present have taught me hard work with no gimmicks, and it can and does work. That is why I just can't for the life of me justify it, and I am sorry for that! I am a firm believer in the least amount of gimmicks possible. The only thing I have ever used was a running martengale on my TB who would throw his head back and almost hit me in the face. But that was for MY saftey. My saddle is properly fit to my horse, so there is no need for other padding. Besides that, a gel pad does not affect a horses senses. Again, sorry if I do not have the popular opinion. I know where you guys are coming from, I just don't agree with it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Clarke County]

For some reason, my response (above) didn't get added: Not to add fuel to the fire, but I would disagree about the comment re gel pads; in my opinion they're very similar to ear plugs and they DO affect the horse's sense. Gel pads make a horse with a sensitive back more comfortable by cushioning the impact on his back, just as plugs make a horse more comfortable by "cushioning" him from loud sounds. I don't see any distinction - both unintrusive aids to make a horse happier.

Geez folks.
I think that maybe the changing of nosebands as the horses exit the ring should be of bigger concern. I watched at the in gate of our last show & ALL of the nosebands in one particular barn were changed as the saddle & martingale came off. If the steward was around, the horse was walked away by the groom & returned sans chain or tacks. I just don't get that. BTW, most of these horses had ear bunnies ,too. However, I do not believe that they were as effective as the doctored cavessons.Or maybe it is the non-testable concoction that they get at night. Vitamins -my foot. BTW- These are some of the TOP horses in the country.

[AHC]

Bravo, pwynn! The point isn't the ear bunnies, it's the rules and the lines that people will cross. It will be interesting to see whether there's a definitive answer on this one from the AHSA or whether they will keep the waters muddy. I expect the latter.
Maybe I'm an exception, but to me, the learning process is part of the fun of horses. And yes, at home we use equipment we wouldn't show in if we need to address a learning or training issue or a habit (I'm talking draw reins or a special bit here, nothing more severe). When there's improvement, we go back to the regular stuff.
I'm a competitive person, so I do have to remind myself that with my young horse and limited budget, it will take longer to get where we want to be, but instead of bemoaning that, I try to enjoy every accomplishment and not obssess too much about the tough days. It would be nice to know that when we do show, everyone is playing by the same rules, and our preparation will make a difference, but unfortunately, we all know better...

[G]

Ok, to whoever said that they would protest a horse that beat them and had earplugs in (I believe it was Devildog), that is PETTY!!!!!! I have nothing against earplugs and the people who use them - why can't you guys be the same way? I don't use them personally, and if a horse beat me who had them in, I wouldn't think "oh, he beat me cause he had earplugs in." NOOOO. I would think "What could I have done to make my performance better, what aspects of that horse did the judge particularly like" etc. Seriously guys... This is rediculous

[ccoronios]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TinyTot:
It sticks cotton in a horses ears will stop them from hearing, why do we still cluck?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOVE IT, TinyTot! Answers, please?

[pwynnnorman]

Answer my question.

[Louise]

I second Pwynn's request.

[Twister]

Pwynn, I think the line is hard to draw, especially when one considers things 'allowed' in one discipline that are not in another. Flash nosebands, running martingales, standing martingales, etc., are all things that vary from discipline to discipline as far as 'legality' goes. I think earplugs are pretty tame, compared to a 'legal' yet severe bit or a set of sharp spurs.
Once again, I think the benifits of earplugs vary from individual to individual. In the original thread,I gave as an example a horse in my care who benifited and, despite devildog's insistence that you can condition a horse to anything, spent ten years being a spook.<g>

[Duffy]

Has anyone noticed how many "poms" are found on the ground all over the show grounds??? There are obviously some horses out there schooling and showing without them that left the stabling area with them on. . .

I'm sure some horses are less frightened by the hissing of the loudspeakers, but I feel that more of them are wearing them for their trainers' and riders' sakes than for their own (per Tiny).

I too feel that there are lots more treacherous waters to be delved into than "ear bunnies", IMO. If they are deemed illegal, I shall not use them, and will make the ruling known to my fellow barnmates. But will I "protest" someone who beats me that is wearing them, PLEASE!!! Give me a break!! If I feel a horse is being abused in some manner, yes, I will protest, (even if it doesn't beat me)!!!! But, with this unharmful cotton. . . .??? And I would feel embarrassed for someone who did protest.

[Black Market Radio]

Keep attacking me folks, it proves mine and Pwynns point...

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 04-17-2000).]

[Jumphigh83]

I was basically trying to illustrate absurdity by being absurd! We NEED artificial appliances to RIDE HORSES. It is just that simple. Without "artificial appliances" we would look preety funny zoaring around the rings (fields, stadia, backyards) wildly out of control! I also was tongue in cheek pointing out how rediculous the AHSA is in making an off the cuff comment like 'Earplugs are not permitted'. What next? No bits, reins, srups, stick, crank nosebands, rubber reins, weighted jumper boots, bell boots, etc etc etc..????? If you have a headache, you take an aspirin (or tylenol, whatever)..if your horse is AFRAID, them put in the freakin' earplugs and GET OVER IT!

[Black Market Radio]

And I STILL wonder why no one has legitamitly answered MY question.

[G]

As someone said... You can't really draw the line, but this is truly absurd. A horse that belongs to a friend of mine (she has had it for 3 years) is off the track and still spooky on some days, despite having been around in the Children's and now doing the juniors. Seriously, you just can't predict this mare some days. I remember arriving to watch them at a show (I ended up being late and missing her division), to find out that my friend's horse had spooked when the heaters in the indoor had turned on. The week before, the mare had turned in a FLAWLESS performance w/o spooks or any mishaps. That's just to prove my point that horses are unpredictable and these harmless devices can be the saving grace on some days. My usually unflappable horse jumped across the ring when he saw the dog rolling on the grass the other day.

Some of you refuse to believe that some horses just SPOOK. No training can fix a horse that is flighty. And as someone else said, in the hunters, especially at the bigger shows, you want your horse focused on his job, calm, and quiet. Even if these earplugs don't really work, have you ever noticed how much a horse will feed off of a rider's nervousness? If the earplugs make the rider feel better, then they will usually ride better and turn in a better trip. That's another point... Seriously, there are many other devices out there that aren't being complained about here. If earplugs are so inconsequential as everyone is saying WHY on EARTH do you CARE???? Can't you guys just focus on your riding and your horse and trying to make your horse the best it can be instead of trying to tear down other people and make an excuse as to why these horses and riders are *bad*? I'm only 13, and I find this sickening

[Black Market Radio]

I never said anyone was "Bad" for using ear plugs did I. BUT, How many times have I been told I am bad for having a different opinion? You still missed my point. Yes, horses can be unpredictable. But guess what, All the other disciplines are doing just fine without them and so I will never get why they are so heavily defended. Do you not think we who ride other disciplines as have spooky horses as well? Can your horses move as easily into dressage as ours can move into hunters? Western Pleasure and trail horses sure seem to make nice hunters, I have seen it many times in my area! If your horses have to have ear plugs then I guess not! And yes, my mare will show Hunters as well. You guys are never going to convince me. I am as firm in my belief as you are in yours, so how about we agree to disagree? Or you can keep attacking me, it shows true charactor.

[Duffy]

OK, I'll bite again. . .Maybe if the hunters were allowed to use the same devices (and it was customary and usual to) as the dressage, etc., then maybe some wouldn't feel the need for ear poms. Hunters are not judged on "submission" (I hate that word). They are allowed some freedom to have that relaxed and huntery look. The horse I show in the hunters has PLENTY of mileage AND training. He's done the QH stuff, jumpers, hunters, equitation, you name it. But he's still a horse, bottom line. If using ear poms can eliminate one injury due to an unpredictable spook, you'd condemn their use??? I'm sorry. . .I just don't understand your attitude on this issue, or what should be an non-issue, IMO.

I'm not attacking anyone - just trying to clarify my opinion. I just didn't realize the sensitivity on this, obviously.

OK - I just read my post and I apologize for the tone in the beginning - definately defensive. I have to say, that I love watching dressage done well (you can go to my posts on the Dressage Forum to see that). I sure advanced level dressage riders use different tack/applicances because of the level of intricacy their movements require. Some of the training, IMO, is the same across the board in the different disciplines and I think that is a good thing. By the same token, the training takes different turns by necessity for the different disciplines. What I'm trying to say, and obviously not doing a very good job, is that different disciplines require different training techniques. I'm not condoning all of them, needless to say. But I'm sure that some are needed that are unique to each discipline.

Ok, I'm stopping now - don't know if I'm helping or hurting here

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 04-17-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

I don't use ANY devices on my mare.

[Ash]

In response to Pwynn's question on where to draw the line is-you can't! This is an all or nothing situation. I view stuffing ears the same as using a martingale or spurs. Devildog, why do dressage people use whips? Do you use them to get your horse to pay attention to your aids, to sharpen them up? I stuff my horse’s ears at a noisy horseshow so she can concentrate on me and what I am asking her to do. I have seen dressage riders/ trainers give a horse a slight flick of the whip to get the horses focus back on them when their mind starts to wonder-how is this different? If hunters can’t use ear plugs, then I guess we can’t use spurs, or carry sticks either. We rely on the rules to tell us what we may and may not use in the show ring, but lets face it-everything is an artificial aid! Unless we ride around with no tack someone, somewhere can accuse of use of using artificial aids or means to control our horses.

[Black Market Radio]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
s I am as firm in my belief as you are in yours, so how about we agree to disagree? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Duffy]

Phew! Sounds good to me, DevilDog!

[inthesaddle]

Well, I've been away for awhile and IMHO we have beaten this horse WAY beyond death!!!

Here's the bottom line - people will continue to use whatever training device they can justify - from the "benign" ear plug to the down right cruel "nerve line" which started this discussion.

As you know, western pleasure horses are to be "dead quiet" and even tail switching is penalized. I personally know a very popular trainer who sends his horses out of state to have the tendons in the tail severed so the horse can NEVER AGAIN SWITCH HIS TAIL - not even to swat a fly - he is the winning-est trainer in our state. The end justifies the means - and if you ask him he will tell you how it doesn't hurt the horse and how "benign" the technique is. I'm sure the saddle-bred trainers who keep their horses tied up in dark stalls 24 hrs a day can justify that technique too. I recently read a terrible, gut wrenching story of an incredibly talented dressage stallion that had competed at the PanAm games, started having some training problems, was sent to a new trainer who used a cattle prod to "teach" the horse piaffe. Well as one might expect the stallion went INSANE got more and more dangerous so they started starving him so he wouldn't be so "hot", medicated him to "calm him down" etc... etc... The trainer was able to justify all of this because it was "necessary" for the training of the horse.

I've always had a tough time believing the argument that one little thing will ALWAYS lead to WORSE infractions but (as discussed earlier) I think it is worth addressing the concerns of the definition of the "ideal hunter". Is it realistic or even desirable for the "ideal hunter" to be 1/2 step from dead?

For some of us it is about the journey, the training, the enjoyment and the accomplishment. For others it is about winning and money - I think the "line" that was referred to earlier is, has, and will always be a personal choice defined by the individuals goals. If all you want is to win, YOU must decide how far YOU will go to accomplish that, just ask the Wards!!!

I started out in this thread thinking ear plugs were wrong no matter what - I DON'T think they are cruel or harmful to the horse - just wrong - in the show ring - as a matter of principle. I've waivered somewhat - and now think they MIGHT have a place as a SCHOOLING aid for a young horse, I put them in the same category as side reins, etc, as a training device. I don't believe they should be allowed in the show ring IMHO, but that's my opinion.

[Lily]

I find it hard to believe that a thread about earplugs, of all things, has gotten to be three pages long, while a thread about an abusive technique used in Florida (see "Latest Jumping Aid") has received little to no attention.

This is an issue we all feel strongly about, obviously. What works for me and my horses may not work for someone else. I also think that every discipline has different aids/devices that may not make sense to others in different disciplines.

We all use devices. Whether it's a flash noseband or earplugs or a gelpad or a whip and spurs, everyone uses something. Unless the device is abusive (such as the nerveline that started this discussion) or blatantly illegal (which earplugs are not), we should let the issue go, and as Devildog said, agree to disagree.

Someday we may have a definitive answer from the AHSA about the legality of earplugs. It might take a rule change in either direction- either legalizing them or prohibiting them- but in any case, I believe it will take time.

Pwynn, I am not "suspiciously defenisve," as you so kindly stated about those defending the use of earplugs- but I'd just like to point out that just because you ask a question, other posters are not compelled to answer.

Again, this is an issue that will not be settled overnight, and I think it would be best if we let it go for now, and agree to disagree.

[Louise]

Well, I guess I can agree that this discussion is getting no place fast. So, lets cry Pax and get on to other matters.

[Jumphigh83]

I want to see SEE Devildog ride sans "appliances"..hmmmm, no sadle, no bridle, no bit, no reins, no shoes...sounds like a circus act to me! come on Devildog, don't be so sanctamonious!! (and I'll learn to spell!)

[Anne FS]

This is great! Well, we may all move on to other things as Louise just suggested but I've been away for days and just found out about this thread and now I know why we'll never have agreement on drugs & meds.

The defensiveness and hypocrisy is amazing. Devildog20, pwynnnorman, and the person who said it depends on who's ox is being gored - you have all hit the nail on the head!

Why, stuffing his ears just makes him quieter. Why, so do the drugs, and the tacks in the noseband, and the longeing for hours, and the cutting the tails, and the tying the heads up, and the nerve lines......well, aren't we all just special?

[Morjalia]

Jumphigh, IMO a really good, experienced rider who has developed a relationship with their well trained horse CAN RIDE w/o saddle and bridle. I have ridden my horses in this way at home many times. I understand this wouldn't ever happen at shows, but realize it can be done.(And if you can ride without saddle and bridle, you probably wouldn't need ear plugs either /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I don't mean to offend anyone, I'd never realized the prevalence(sp?) of earplugs until reading the thread, I think if they are legal, fine use them, but realize they shouldn't be essential to your horses performance.

[Wicky]

I think there are a few themes here.

1. What is an ideal hunter?
2. Is it "fair" to define an ideal hunter in such a way that many can attain the goal only by expanding the repetoire of acceptable accoutrements?
3. Is winning the be all and end all?
4. Is there a place for the use of training aids that eventually can be abandoned?

Personally, I don't love the hunters because so much of it does seem so arbitrary. How is daisy cutting more suitable than higher knee action? (I thought I read that the long pasterns associated with that kind of motion might result in more tendon strains?)But, as one poster said, if we don't like them, we don't have to join them.

Clarity of definition of permissible and not permissable is helpful as new tools are developed. It might not make sense, but at least there can't be any misunderstandings.

Maybe, for safety sake for horses and riders, there should be different things that are permitted for junior and amateur, for baby greens, than for second year and working hunters. If the latter two groups are the epitome of the hunter world, how would it hurt to permit less accomplished riders and horses try to work toward the goal with expanded riding tools, as long as they are not cruel? That would permit horses to be shown and marketed without hours of lunging, being deprived or food or water, or other cruel approaches that I don't even know of.

JMHO.

[ccoronios]

Before we gets too snide about riding without saddle & bridle - anyone seen the Foxfield Drill Team? 15 girls, ranging from 8-17 (or thereabouts), riding everything from large ponies to the horse that "played" Sylvester, performing CLOSE ORDER drill at a canter, over 2'6" fences - and participating in parades - bareback, with a color-coordinated cable (like a martingale loop). Probably also without earbunnies... Word has it that "at home" they also do a demonstration over cross country obstacles. They are, without doubt, the most impressive examples of horsemanship I've ever seen.

[Black Market Radio]

I forgot to say this earlier, but the thought came to my mind that those who think ear plugs are more for the rider's peace of mind, then maybe it's the riders who should be wearing them /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But seriously, I can ride my horse bareback with a halter. In fact, up until I got her she was only ridden in a hackamore. John Lyons has some awesome books and videos, he can ride his blind appy stallion bridleless in a round pen with a FILLY in there! So yes, it can and is done. We have seen those pictures of people jumping bareback and bridleless, it's all in the training. Well, I see the sharks circling so I better swim back to my boat!

[RDutchRulz]

How can ear-plugs be illegal? if you look allmost EVERY hunter shows in them...in FL the grooms had my horses ears stuffed every time he came out of his stall...and why is it such a big deal if people use them? i mean how do they do any harm?

[Janet]

I go away fro the weekend, and come back to 3+ pages on earplugs!

First, the AHSA general rule about artificial appliances is "unconstitutionally vague". If we were to take the "anything not permitted is prohibited" literally, then whips, spurs, martingales, and even, to take it to an extreme, saddles, would be illegal for the hunter division, as none of them are expressly permitted. (Reductio ad Absurdum)

Obviously this is neither the intention of the AHSA nor the way the rule is enforced.

On the other hand, I think that we all agree that things like an "electronic girth buzzer" OUGHT to be illegal, and the only rule that would prohibit them is the one about artificial devices.

In between is an enormous grey area which includes ear plugs, fly masks, various bits, draw and side reins, various nosebands, nerve lines, etc., and all sorts of awful things I can't think of.

The "line" between permitted and not permitted has generally been drawn by what the majority of the judges THINK is conventional. (According to the posts here, it would appear that (for the hunter division) ear plugs are considered conventional, and twisted wire snaffles are considered conventional, but "hidden gags" are considered unconventional.)

I think that the AHSA has a responsibility to draw the line more clearly. If they don't, they will be unable to effectivly ban things like the electronic girth. I think it is far more important THAT they draw a clear line that bans nerve lines and electronic girths, than exactly where the line is drawn within the "gray areas".

I am going to put my personal opinions about where I think the appropriate line should be in another post.

[Janet]

Now for my personal opinions.

First, I think that earplugs are far more benign than whips and spurs and martingales. Given that whips and spurs and martingales are clearly permitted, I think that ear plugs should be permitted, except in divisions that chose to explicitly exclude them.

Second, I don't think that every horse, TB or otherwise, is suitable to be a show hunter. Years ago I trained a very talented, but very spooky, TB mare (NOT off the track). It never occured to me to try to show her (except to get her used to jumping courses in a ring) or sell her as a hunter. It was clear she would be a much better fit as a jumper or an event horse, and that is where I competed her. Would I have tried riding her with earplugs if I had known about them? Quite possibly (if the owner had agreed). But I still would not have tried to sell her as a show hunter. I did take her field hunting several times, and she was fine there, except that she fidgetted at the checks.

Several people in this thread seem (my ipmression, maybe I am misinterpreting) to have the attitude that "It is needed in order to make some horses go like a hunter, therfore it should be permitted." If this is, indeed you opinion, you may want to think about the implications. Again where is the line. If ear plugs are OK, what about "longing to death", what about drugs? (I am talking about "OK" from a moral or ethical point of view, not a rule book point of view.) I think that this basic attitude (I need to turn this horse into a show hunter, no matter what), taken to extreme leads to the drugging problems.

Would it not be better to say: "This horse is too hot, too spooky, too whatever to be a good show hunter. What would be a better occupation for this horse?" (This works the other way too. An event horse that is a very "pretty" jumper, but not particularly bold cross country might be happier and more sucessful in the hunter ring.)

And I think I know at least one of the reasons this question is not asked more often by those initially training and selling the horses. It is because "competent" show hunters sell for more money than all but the most exceptional individuals in other disciplines.

The other reason is because the trainers are not "well rounded" enough. They don't know enough about other disciplines to know whether a horse would thrive there.

(I am afraid this post is not particularly well organized, I am jumping around, please bear with me.)

Another "higher level" question, is SHOULD spookyness be such a serious fault in show hunters? Should the rules be changed to make manners less important? IF this is a good idea, what would it take to change the rules/actual judging?

On yet another tangent, there seems to be a distinction between horses for whom ear plugs are needed for them to perform, and horses that are used to (or, perhaps, whose riders have become used to) ear plugs.

Just as I suspect that all the A show champions would go just as well without thier martingales, I suspect they would go just as well without their earplugs. Any horse that actually raised its head enough to "touch" the martingale would already be out of the ribbons at that level. But if you tried to tell the riders and trainers that they had to stop using martingales they would have a fit. (And I am NOT proposing that they do, I am just pointing out the distinction between USING an "artifical device" and NEEDING one.)


[This message has been edited by Janet (edited 04-17-2000).]

[CAH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:


Second, I don't think that every horse, TB or otherwise, is suitable to be a show hunter...
Would it not be better to say: "This horse is too hot, too spooky, too whatever to be a good show hunter. What would be a better occupation for this horse?" (This works the other way too. An event horse that is a very "pretty" jumper, but not particularly bold cross country might be happier and more sucessful in the hunter ring.)


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I couldn't agree more.

[Duffy]

Clarification: What I meant when I said the bit about finding the poms all over the grounds of the shows was that IMO, they are either falling out or being shaken out - NOT that they are being taken out on purpose, for ANY reason.

[Lily]

I don't think it was at all necessary to bring Emily Williams and her trainers into this- the example could have been made without reference to any specifc riders/trainers. I believe her reasons for seeking outside help were most likely not the ones you suggest, but will not participate in this idle speculation.

You've lost both my ear- and my respect- with this post.

[Janet]

pwynn... said:
"Janet, think of this: whips and spurs are permitted, but unlike ear plugs, the rider has to APPLY them for them to have any effect. Indeed, they are "attached" to the rider, which makes them part OF the rider and of the way the horse is ridden--and isn't that what is part of the challenge of the sport? How to RIDE (not drug, not de-sensitize, not lung til dead) the horse?"

Perhaps a better analogy would be martingales. Or gel pads. Or dropped/flash nosebands.

Sorry. I think a horse that doesn't NEED earplugs is a "Better" horse (in the sense that it is the horse _I_ would prefer to own), but I refuse to get excited about their use. Especially in a world where "hours of longing" and twisted wire snaffles are commonplace, and "nerve lines" (which I had never heard of before) are not uncommon.

[AMom]

This is a bit off topic, but how are gel pads a part of this? Would you put foam pads, quilted fleece pads, air pads, wither pads, banjo pads, etc. in as well?

[Melissa]

Devildog, we disagree with the earplugs....but we dont about who we ask!! I asked Larry also..... LoL!!!
Hey showed me your question,looked exactly like mine, LOL!! So, sorry i was mean,. but ya know!
Melissa

[Flash44]

Most people are not lucky enough to look around until they find the perfect horse. Usually, due to financial considerations, they opt for something close and go to work on it. I have an OTT TB that i show as a hunter. He has an old injury and would probably not stay sound doing the jumpers or going cross country. However, he is sound and happy over 3'- 3'6. He tends to be a bit fresh or nervous sometimes, so i stuff his ears.

According to some of you purists, this horse is probably not best suited for the hunter ring. What else would he do? He is not suitable for a beginner. Due to his injury, even if I did sell him, I would not get much for him. I think this horse is very fortunate to have a good home where he is well fed and cared for. Not everyone is looking to make the Olympic team. I am constantly striving to learn more and better my horsemanship. But I have a family and job, and riding is usually squeezed in between. So crucify me because I am not whispering in my horse's ear (he can't hear me anyway, they're stuffed) and riding him bridleless and bareback.

So there may be lots of horses in the hunter ring who may be better suited to do something else. Isn't it more important to notice that the horse is fat and happy, and the rider is grinning ear to ear because she just put in a nice round?

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
I go away fro the weekend, and come back to 3+ pages on earplugs!

First, the AHSA general rule about artificial appliances is "unconstitutionally vague". If we were to take the "anything not permitted is prohibited" literally, then whips, spurs, martingales, and even, to take it to an extreme, saddles, would be illegal for the hunter division, as none of them are expressly permitted. (Reductio ad Absurdum)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so--the saddles are expressly permitted under the appointments section, and martingales are expressly metioned as permitted over fences, but not in the u/s.

[Bertie]

No, martingales are NOT expressly mentioned as permitted...They are only mentioned under Article 2417 where they're prohibited.

"Article 2417. Tack....

3. Martingales of any type are prohibited in Under Saddle, hack and tie-breaking classes."

[Bertie]

The point is, we assume martingales are permitted over fences, since they're not listed as prohibited for those classes.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-17-2000).]

[inthesaddle]

Ok my ignorance shows again - since all of this discussion started I have spent more time with my nose stuck in the rule book than I care to think about LOL . But now I have ANOTHER question. :confused

Why do you suppose the rules for hunters are so vague while the rules for dressage are EXTREMELY specific? - they even DRAW pictures of the legal bits for us so we get it right (DUH). They list almost every conceivable contraption as either legal or not and make it pretty hard to "bend" the rules. Of course it's not fool proof but it's really specific.

I'm just curious (really that's all, I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic, NO REALLY I'm not, promise /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )why the "rules" are left to such broad interpretations.

[Bertie]

Here's a guess...Dressage seems to be judged on more of an exact, disciplined performance than working hunters. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they're judged differently. So it would make sense that the strictness would carry over to the rules for equipment. Am I all wet?

[Janet]

Two possible reasons why the dressage rules are so precise and the hunter rules are so vague.

One- the dressage rules are based on the FEI rules which are very specific. (So are the CT rules, which have an equally precise but quite different specification on legal bits.)

Two - the dressage (rule making) community, for whatever reason, wants to make things precise, while the hunter (rule making) community either wants to keep things vague, or simply can't agree on anything precise. You will also note that the description of what the judge is looking for is much more precise in dressage than hunters.

[inthesaddle]

Hey guys thanks for the thoughts about the specifics of the rules. Also BIG THANKS for not thinking I was a jerk for asking!!! I think it's really hard to "type" a conversation, it's much too easy to be misconstrued (and the spelling is hard too) LOL!!!