2 PLANES CRASHED INTO WORLD TRADE CENTER IN NY

[N&B&T]

I'm going to answer you in a bit of a roundabout way...yesterday morning, when everything started to happen, everyone associated with my barn was there at the same time, riding, working, watching, and enjoying the horses and the (cooler!) day in a beautiful and peaceful place.

When we heard what was happening, we were, like everyone else, shocked and horrified. We were worried about people we knew who might have been in the areas attacked, and we were saddened at the thought of so many innocent lives suddenly cut short, many in terror and in pain. The thought of what might come after the attack--changes in our society and the possibility of war--was sobering, to say the least.

I looked around me and thought, "What an idyll this is...and how important and precious each moment of it and each person standing here is, it could have been any one of us today...and will each of us be at risk of this in the future?"

Tragedies can refocus our awareness and remind us not to get so caught up in trivia that we forget what is important. Tragedy can de-sensitize us--or the reverse.

Anyway, as some time has passed, people here on the BB are beginning to absorb what happened and look forward to our recovery from and response to the tragedy. This has provoked some pretty heated political debate and we have gotten down to exchanging fairly strong words and attitudes about things that are, IMO, peripheral to and/or trivial with respect to the larger picture.

Those posters who've said, all this just goes to prove what a great country we live in--a country where we can openly debate our leadership and our ideas, are correct. But I find myself angry to see the members of this BB challenging and disagreeing with each other quite so harshly and so personally at this particular point in time.

Think about this tragedy--shouldn't we all be very gentle with each other, even as we disagree? Anger and intolerance for other political viewpoints is the opposite of what we all stand for. I can certainly get as intense and partisan about the implications of small things as anyone else /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but I really feel that yesterday's events should cause us to move beyond all that, at least for a short while?

So I guess what I was getting at, Julie, is that just about any large city in the US is diverse enough and anonymous enough for a terrorist to get lost in--they don't need to hide themselves in the Everglades and would be much more uncomfortable there anyway, too many bugs and they don't call it sawgrass for nothing /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And Wellington, though isolated, is more diverse than you might imagine--since I live here year round, I can say that /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry to make you all read this rambling post, which I can't seem to put into deathless prose--but I wish you would all disagree a bit more compassionately. When I read some of these exchanges, they are so hard it feels like blows. Think about those poor people lost yesterday. We are lucky to still be here and to enjoy each other and our horses.

[Jumphigh83]

Our freedom to stick around and love our horses and chant Koombyah is WHY we need to act with purpose and conviction to STOP this evil. To try to be all touchy feely and "two wrongs don't make a right" is so off the point...We need to assert our world dominance and stop sitting on our wringing hands wondering HOW this could have happened??!!! Our military has been severely compromized by the previous administration as has our standing in the world community. We need to LEAD not follow like pathetic sheep following the herd. Terrorists DO NOT understand hand holding and singing Koombyah...they HATE us...they will give their lives to see us suffer...they will stop at nothing to achieve their goals...WAKE UP AMERICA...We need to ACT like a leading world power and not a sniveling tree hugging group of flower children praying for love and peace. Talk softly and carry a BIG STICK>....And stop the stupid rhetoric about who did what to whom...We are Americans and we are not kissing anyones a$$...And yes I would not be sounding any different if it was my self, my husband, father, son, etc going to fight to preserve our precious freedom.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Hattie]

Clip-clop...your post leaves me speechless.

[moose]

Jumpinghigh, while on one level I want to agree with you, on the other level, how stupid it would be to over react and rush what could be into a trap. Doesn't it seem strange that in such an elaborate and coordinated plot that the same people would leave arabic manuals about it in their rent-a-cars?

There is the remote possibility that who ever did this is purposely leaving traces to cause blame to another source.

I'm not saying this wasn't middle east terrorists, but Timothy Mcveighs stupid plot was to bomb the buildings with the intention to make it believed it was middle east terrorists and to start a war. What if one sect of terrorists did this to wage war with another country?

I truly hope it's as simple as catching one group of terrorists tied to one country and one leader.

[ClipClop]

Maybe that's why the world hates us. We have snotty attitudes that "WE ARE THE BEST" I don't think ANYONE here realizes what we have done to other foreign nations. WE are American citizens, yes we have Every right to be patriotic, but if I was foreign, you can bet I would be upset at the United States. We stick our noses out where it doesn't belong practically asking for something like this to happen.

It's disgusting and revolting to propose going to "nuke" Afganistan? When you say that, YOU ARE JUST AT BARBARIC AS THE TERRORIST'S. A three year old innocent boy cannot help being born in the middle east, neither can the two month old baby, or even a peaceful 15 year old girl. So you want to bomb them? Kill them for revenge? How disgusting.

Now, I am all for finding the terrorists, that did this. Yes, they must pay. But to kill innocents? No, that is wrong. Sorry, I must be the only selfish one who would be extremly upset if my loved ones were sent to war. What an alien feeling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Seem's like I am one of the few who can actually think beyond- like the implications this might cause. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[BustersMom]

I have a friend whose office was in the WTC. She escaped but only after witnessing horriffic things. My thoughts and prayers are with her as she comes to terms with life post-tragedy.

Please remember not only the victims but the survivors.

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group

[jl]

I am struck by the extremist polarities of your posts. Both views scare the crap out of me.
I applaud your individual passion while deploring your rhetoric.
I'm sure and I mean this with all sincerity-you are both struggling to convey what you are convinced is the only truth. And once again, I'm thankful that our form of government guarantees you the right to express your (misguided) opinions.

[ClipClop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>you the right to express your (misguided) opinions <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, all sincerity eh?

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[Cactuskate]

This thread is getting a little spooky.

It is provoking me to suggest you take control of your life:

Step 1 - get a compass

Step 2 - If the pointy thing is at the N keep walking north (take warm clothes and a snow shovel)

Step 3 - If the pointy thing is at the S keep walking south (but watch out for the Border Patrol agents, they aren't used to seeing anyone going that direction you might sneek up behind them.

"The older I get, the better I used to be."

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Our freedom to stick around and love our horses and chant Koombyah is WHY we need to act with purpose and conviction to STOP this evil...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but opinions on the best way to do so vary.

[Coreene]

As for airport security, everyone will get used to checking in two hours before very soon. And having all suitcases xrayed not once, but twice, etc etc etc. Forgoing convenience for safety is no longer a concept, it must be reality.

[Heidi]

Wow Julie. To some I am abrasive. You are a brillo pad.

[jl]

The older I get, the more I revel in the basic freedoms that this country offers.
I protested the Vietnam War and went to jail briefly for my views.
But I didn't get shot and I didn't get exiled Siberia and I still got a decent education.
And more than that-the people of America stopped an unjust war.
Yes, we've done horrible things.
But I just don't know any better form of government. And refusing to kill for your country does not preclude dying for your country.
There are 'fates worse than death."

And JulieM-while I'm on a tear here- I take umbrage with your tone-I think you're spoiling for a fight and flapping flags at bulls.
Not nice.

[Everythingbutwings]

I assume you are female and are in mid PMS. Therefore I will refrain from annoying you further.

Forgive me if I am in error. I can see no comprehensible reason for your continued offensiveness.

[AMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smart Alec:
I thought the same...these terrorists hit us hard and without any warning...how is it now that it seems there are cases up where careless things such as flight books in arabic writing are now turning up? It just seems too easy and too coincidental. I'm sure there is much that we don't know that the authorities do know though...I'm sure they are letting certain things become public for a reason...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an interesting question and I am sure my thoughts will have some flaws, but my feeling is that, given that the individuals involved directly in the hijacking planned and knew that they would die in the process, evidence left behind mattered little to them at that point. One thing I have heard over and over is that these highly sophisticated terrorist organizations are made up of "cells" of trained groups who remain fairly untraceable to the main organization whether it is Bin Laden's group or some other. That way Bin Laden, et al, can maintain innocence of the the act however transparent or not it may be. Leaving behind documentation may just be a red herring and not really a decoy (or are those the same dang thing??)


I heard on the news this morning that a man called the FBI to report that he had had a run in with a car full of men in the parking garage at Logan (I think it was Logan, I was on a steep treadmill hill at the time and couldn't find the remote...) who struck him as memorable in some way. I think it was that they appeared to be Middle Eastern and they were anxious as, in retrospect, if they were in fact the hijackers, they would have been running late for the flights. He mostly remembered them because they had exchanged words over a parking space or some other driving issue. If only they had had a fender bender and he'd had to call the police...

[Becca]

Hattie- I wish I had the clarity of mind and the ability to be so capable as you to remain speechless.

I truly believe that we must return what has come to us, and that it can not be stood for. My world was shattered, and a large portion of the security and basis of the free world felt a slamming blow when this happened. If people need to stand up to be behind our country, to be the ones who stand behind the rights we have all been so fortunate and ready to exercise and consider ours. Freedom and the fortune to have our basic rights does not come gaurenteed; At times we must stand up and fight back, and ensure those rights. If it means draft, it means draft. If it means sending our men, and our women to war, that is precisely what it means. We can not sit back and allow an offense to our lives, our world, and our beliefs.
Our hand has been seen across the world. From world wars to vietnam to civil disputes amongst our allies to Bosnia and other conflicts, we have offered our help, and played a part. Argue with that, if you will. But when WE have been attacked, when a direct assault on our own land has occured, our hand will not be interfering in anything, our hand will be held up in defense for the safety of our citizens and of the free world. We ARE a member of NATO- and that involves a contract; it goes both ways.

[jparkes]

And to the people on this board that mock it and condemn it, I suggest you find another country to live in!
My GOD!, what is happening to the people of this great nation??? No longer willing to fight/die for what we hold so dear... mocking our leader during a national crisis... I'm lost for words..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

To SmartAlec - this group that attacked us is a lot smarter than we think. Could those items and people just be a diversion?

[N&B&T]

...which is not confined to one poster, is that we attempt (everyone is human /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) to exchange views, even deeply-felt ones, even when they are challenged, in a constructive and non-personal way. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves one day after such a tragedy?

Anyway, good point CWP; and good distinction, Becca, between US involvement/non-involvement and responding to this terrorist attack...of course, that's just MH(umble)O.

[Palisades]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
We need to ACT like a leading world power and not a sniveling tree hugging group of flower children praying for love and peace.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the saddest thing I have seen or heard from this entire disaster... it's comments like that that make me think that maybe God has a reason for letting us wipe ourselves out.

[ClipClop]

Why is everyone fighting the day after this great disaster?

So you don't see my point(s). Oh well, just be glad I'm not running the country. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Oh and JParkes: You just made me look REALLY smart. Heh, did you read my post AT ALL?

[This message was edited by ClipClop on Sep. 12, 2001 at 08:33 PM.]

[Jair]

Uhm Jparkes, there are people on this board from other countries....

In my opinion, Canada is the greatest nation in the world - because its my country.

While most of the world is of course behind the US on this one, to any individual in another country, generally speaking their country is the best. Sorry but I found your statement incredibly arrogant. Its the best to you, but not to me.

[Becca]

Thank You, Jair.

While patriotism and love for your country is a powerful tool, and necessary in a time of such crisis, arrogance and belittling other nations, most especially those who have offered their condolences and undying support to us, is unacceptable and treasonous to the cause and intent that all of the patriotism and unity is striving to obtain. We are a great nation, but because we are a part of a great world mad eup of many other great nations. We would be no where without the support and care of those other great countries and states. We need every friend that we have at this moment, because that is one of the few thigns we truly do have. Do not go so far on your love for your own country as to destroy that.

[Hattie]

I was just waiting for someone to say it for me ....and you put it exactly as I would have liked to have done! Freedom comes at a great price.

[jparkes]

I'm not bashing Canada at all in my previous post. It is a wonderful friend to the north and a great country indeed.
All I'm saying is there are people on this board bashing this country and it's leadership and if you hate it so much, then leave!!!!

[ClipClop]

Right Here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The United States is the greatest nation in the world!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[jparkes]

Well, in my opinion it is!!! So, what's wrong with that?

Listen, this country is targeted because of it's greatness, it's power and wealth. Terrorist would love to see this nation fall and crumble.

[ClipClop]

It's like calling yourself the best rider on the BB. You just can't do it...

And that's exactly what I ment in my previous posts. Now I have a live demo. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[jparkes]

So, in other words, we shouldn't be proud to be an American?

[ClipClop]

Would you run up to a Russian and scream THE UNITED STATES WAY IS THE ONLY WAY AND YOU ARE WRONG???

If you would, that is just plain rude. Contrary to belief, American's aren't always right. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Basically, people get touchy when you claim you are right and no one else is, which is basically what you just did

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[Jair]

no, but you can't ignore the fact that just because you think its the greatest, doesn't make is so.

Its important to appreciate the globalness of the world. I severely doubt the French think the US is the greatest in the world given their own very strong patriotism /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Becca]

On the contrary, our pride is one of the strongest most powerful things we have. It is, however, of necessity to recognize the diversity that thrives within many mediums- our community on the bulletin board, our communtiy nation wide, our community world wide- you have every right to your opinion, and pride, and nationalism, but do not let it me a fault to you, or those who surround you.

Pride comes with many responsibilities, inclusive in those being able to control how you express that, and respecting those who may be have a varying opinion but have had the decency to recognize you for your passions as well.

People from Canada, etc. do not need to leave because they too have a national pride. They need to be able to share that with us so our sense of national unity can extend to a sense of world wide unity so we can refute the actions against us, and so that we may continue to have our pride and our passion in freedom.

Please remember that "We" may not refer to only you, me, and him who are all Americans, but also a greater "We," and a powerful "We" that we should all be proud to be a part of, and do our part to embrace the others who are a part of that rather than top push them away with so called pride. There is a great distinction between pride and elitism.

[jparkes]

It's just been disturbing to read some of these posts mocking our counrty and leadership especially at this time of great crisis.

[Jair]

I find it disturbing that there are people out there that can't seem to fathom that there are more countries in the world beside the US /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

How is reminding you of the rest of the world mocking the US???

Besides, people will always discuss politics, regardless of a crisis situation. Its natural /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ClipClop]

Considers stating one's opionions to be mocking anyone. I don't think ( though I may be mistaken) that anyone has come right out and said Prez Bush looks like a monkey! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No matter what anyones thoughts, opinions etc. are, I think the one thing everyone agrees on is that we need to all become "United" to help with the tragedy in New York. Leave the politics to the polictican's - that is what they are there for.

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[Lisamarie8]

There I said it ClipClop... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

before anyone freaks...THAT was a joke. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--My most accommodating strength is my willingness to humiliate myself

[Kryswyn]

Just because I believe the USA is the greatest country in the world, doesn't make it so. It's what the WORLD believes that creates that truth.

Evidence:

The hundreds of thousands of immigrants who sometimes give their lives in addition to all their money, and years of servitude just for the CHANCE to get into this country, legally or illegally.

The fact that when Great Britain, once the world's acknowledged leader (when it was a global empire) lost that honor, America was given that mantle based on it's economic power, wealth, military strength and size.

The fact that around the WORLD our president (any of them) is known as the Leader of the Free World and the "Most Powerful Man on Earth".

The economic fact that when there is a ripple in our stock market, it causes waves in the markets of every other country. The reverse is sometimes true, now. In prior years, we were not as connected; therefore less affected by other stock markets, but now that's changed

The fact that every free nation contacts the US President before taking military action against their neighboring countries and enemies.

The fact that nations vie to obtain "Most Favored Nation" trade status with us.

There are many other examples.

HOWEVER THIS IN NO WAY MEANS THAT THE OTHER COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD ARE CHOPPED LIVER!!!!! AMERICA LEADS BECAUSE OF and WITH THE TACIT PERMISSION OF THE OTHER GREAT NATIONS OF THE WORLD. America is not leading the pack like Secretariat winning the Belmont! It's more like a really tight bunch with America ahead by a neck.

EVERYONE, LIVING IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, SHOULD BELIEVE THEIR OWN COUNTRY IS THE BEST. If they don't, they should move to the country they believe is better.

And finally, I can't resist responding to the comment about running up to the Russian, telling him his system is 'wrong'. This is a moot point; HE ALREADY KNOWS /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Royal Blue]

I feel for the familes that are still unsure of their loved ones status. Back in 93 my mom was at the WTC for a meeting when the bomb went off. We did not hear from her for 10 hours, it was the most awful feeling. We were worried about my uncle who works there but he missed his train & arrived just as the first plane hit. He was just able to get back to the Island. Think of all the poor children who are now parentless. My cousins friend lost both parents, her father was killed & mother had a heart attack when she found out. What a tragedy.

[Jumphigh83]

WOW you guys are unbelievable. Canada bashing? PLease. USA the greatest country in the world..yup. sorry Canada but again the truth hurts. I will not appologize for being an American and a proud American at that. Do I put down Canadians or anyone else...NO. Palisades, you need counseling....we deserve this besause we are arrogant??? Just when I think people can't get any stupider...they do. That comment was not just stupid but ignorant too. I hope nothing horrible EVER happens to you or yours and you have someone say to you "YOU DESERVE IT"...Incredible. The depth of ignorance in some of the comments here is ASTOUNDING...If you don't like it here..GO! PLEASE! I will buy you a oneway ticket to Afganistan and you all can confab with BinLaden singing Koombyah... I can't take this board anymore....I am going to boards were there are patriotic Americans not sniveling tree hugging incense burning Jane Fonda wannabees...

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Jumphigh83]

Before I go I would like to post this from my Golden Retriever list....Some real sentiments with real feeling and empathy. Enough ignorance already
AN OPEN LETTER TO TERRORISTS
by jwillis@bellatlantic.net
(Jim Willis & Nicole Valentin-Willis/Tiergarten Sanctuary Trust)


I don't know your name, or names - we may never know who you are - so I
can't address you personally. Today, you killed several thousands of our

friends...perhaps not people who we knew personally, but people like us.

People who worked hard to make a living, who loved someone, who were
loved by someone, who worried about making a better life for their
children and grandchildren, who believed in God and the American Dream,
who criticized this country for its insufficiencies and cared enough to
try and change things and ensure a better future, not just for us, but
for the world. People who leave behind scores of loved ones, friends,
pets, neighbors, coworkers, and members of their faiths. Perhaps even
people who derived from your own country and who sought refuge here.
Your act was a slaughter of the innocents.

You are like an insidious cancer that strikes without warning, ravages
bodies, tears families apart, and in the end can never destroy the soul.

You are the ultimate coward.

You may topple our buildings, collapse our communication systems,
disrupt our government, crash our markets, and leave behind the carnage
of bodies, but you will never destroy the soul of America. We made this
country from the bits and pieces of the rest of the world; we took the
best, the worst of every culture and nationality, race and creed, and
made an alloy that may be dented, but not even a trial by fire can melt.

I don't know what god you believe in, or what hateful rhetoric you
espouse, or what your misguided political beliefs might be that allows
you to do what you did today without a fear of eternal damnation. I only

know that you may win a battle or two, but you will never win this war.
We have the entire history of the world on our side, and no dictator,
despot, or madman has survived as long as America has thrived and
prospered. If you accomplished anything at all today, it was to give
America a wake-up call, and we will now rise up stronger than before.
You are defeated before you've even begun, there in your private hell
and later in your eternal one. Someday your people may even need our
help, and because we are America, we would respond.

May God bless the friends we lost, their families, friends, neighbors
and coworkers. We will help them rebuild from the ashes. May God
continue to bless America, help her to protect us all, and may she
continue to shine as a beacon of democracy and hope to the rest of the world.
.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Palisades]

JumpHigh83, I won't even bother to correct you on the "America is the best country in the world" statement. You're entitled to your opinion on that, just as the UN is entitled to theirs.

I think we could ALL use some counselling, we were(and are) living through a catastrophic event that none of us will ever forget. I'm trying to deal with it the best I can, and I'm sure you are doing the same.

I would like to echo your sentiments "that comment was not just stupid but ignorant too"... exactly what I was thinking about your post earlier. Something tells me we aren't going to come to an agreement on this one. Please do me a favour though, and refrain from derogatory comments directed at anyone who is hoping and praying for peace. You seem to be fond of the desription "snivelling peace lovers"... I cried a lot yesterday, and I'm not ashamed of it. I don't think it makes me any less strong or courageous than anyone else. It is people who hide their fear behind unprovoked agression that I find to be cowardly- up to and including terrorists.

[elizabeth]

I have no idea if this indeed WAS published in a Canadian paper, nor do I know if the author was indeed NOT a United States resident. I offer it only for what it is worth:

"This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

'This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United tates that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American dechnocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.'

[Lisamarie8]

it is a transcript of a editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. He wrote it in 1973.

--My most accommodating strength is my willingness to humiliate myself

[jl]

Please-this was the same philosophy that was directed at the opponents of the Vietnam War.
While I am in no way likening the current situation to that war, I find it interesting that the proponents of that ideology were proved very wrong.

Why is it so important to have people of other nationalities consider us the biggest, badass country in the world?
Why should those with differences of opinion be forced to leave?
It is my belief that our diversity makes us stronger and gives us an incalculable advantage against societies that enforce homogeneity.

I think that America is the best place to live despite our many "national" faults.
I'm sure that if I were a Canadian I'd think that about Canada.
Why is this even important right now?

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jparkes:
And to the people on this board that mock it and condemn it, I suggest you find another country to live in!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jparkes, by this logic, we would still be a slave holding colony of the British Empire...

What makes this country great is that right wing war mongers can stand up and shout out how the rest of the world should bow to our will and become a parking lot if they don't acknowledge our superiority... In fact they can stand right next to the left wing pacifists shouting out that not one molecule should be injured in any retaliatory action. Most of us stand in the middle and are required to have the intelligence to sort the wheat from the chaff. It's fairly challenging on a good day.

Remember, I may not agree with you, but I defend to the death your right to voice your opinion... even one that says I should leave the country if I don't agree with it... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But remember that "not agreeing" and "not supporting" are NOT the same thing. Dick Gephardt was interviewed this morning about the debate that raged prior to issuing the Gulf War resolution. He pointed out that of course there was debate about how/if/under what conditions to issue that resolution. But once it was voted on and passed, Congress as a unified body stood behind that resolution. Who here thinks that isn't what democracy is about?

[Becca]

SOMEDAY DMK, I will be able to say exactly what I mean so eloquently and clearly as you do, someday.

Thank you.

[Louise]

I have been trying to think of some way to say that all morning DMK. Thank goodness that you and your wisdom and way with words are available to this forum.

[VTrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Becca:
SOMEDAY DMK, I will be able to say exactly what I mean so eloquently and clearly as you do, someday.

Thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There Becca goes again...suckin' up in order to heighten chances of owning that brown nag of DMK's! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Goodyfourshoes!]

edit

[DMK]

Thanks, Becca and Louise - although I will let you in on a secret... I plaguarized Patrick Henry /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I dunno, VT - Becca's way up in the BAY nag contest /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Worthy - I doubt Americans feel too invincible today... But yes, a nation is little more than it's people, and people are just chock full of humanity. Humanity has faults as well as good points.

However, I would not assume that because CNN showed 10, 100 or 1000 Palestinian children dancing in the streets that this in any way represented the thoughts, beliefs and convictions of ALL Palestinians. Conversely when one sees a level of arrogance conveyed by 10, 100 or 1000 Americans (in person or in the media), it might not be appropriate to think that this represents the thoughts, beliefs or convictions of ALL Americans.

However, if an action by this Nation's government is viewed as arrogant by one, I accept that the government that represents me has acted arrogantly in one's eyes. But even then, one cannot know how I, as an individual felt about that action.

[hobson]

Would you move out of your house just because you think it needs some improvement? "Gee, honey, don't you think we ought to install a better drain in the basement?" "Get out! Move down the street if you don't like it!"

Good grief, I am so appalled at the nastiness of some people. Yup, we all fight for freedom of opinion, as long as those opinions do not in any way contain a critique of the status quo. What a noble ideal. The land of the free-to-agree-with-me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I personally could do without all the nationalist flag-waving right now. I think it cheapens the deaths of thousands of very real people. The focus ought to be on tracking down the organization which coordinated the attack and dealing with them appropriately, along with remembering and respecting the victims. Garish displays of "we're so great" seem out of place to me.

[Quinn]

Hobson,

Amen.

[lisa]

Thought I'd post a link here...
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm

Here's today's:
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/079697.htm

And I also found this opinion:
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/opinion/opcol/digdocs/087947.htm

[jparkes]

For some odd reason, I just don't get it. Maybe many/most of the posters on this board are young and haven't experienced a national crisis but I have. From the Cuban Missle Crisis to the Vietnam War, I can remember all too well the clossness this nation came to WWIII. We may be on the verge of it right now and I wholeheartedly stand behind the leaders of my country, the USA, in the decisions that need to be made.
And I'm sorry if I have ticked some of you off, but this country needs our prayers, support and a show of unity right now. Not bitterness or hatered.
If it's WWIII, then so be it. May God have mercy on us all.

[Smart Alec]

I've just read through this thread and it kills me to think...
...wow, this is exactly what these terrorists wanted...to create a division between people and then bring us down. Let me be the first to congratulate those who are bickering and giving these faceless terrorists exactly what they wanted. I am ashamed to have to even feel the need to write this post...I hope to heaven that none of the survivors or families come to this thread to read what some of you have written. Shame on you.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[pt]

and allowing for the youth and protected lives of some of the posters on this board - a few questions & thoughts...

FIRST, to all non-Americans posting - thank you for your condolences. They are gratefully received.

THEN:

Velvet - you have mentioned several times that you would like to see Colin Powell as president. I would be interested to hear your reasons. It's irrelevant at the moment, but there will be another election in 2004....

Houdini - I was really amused that you're upset about the president's use of the work "folks." The perpetrators of Tuesday's horror are better described as "bottom-feeding, slime-sucking spawn of Evil" but for whatever reason, Mr. Bush's speechwriters chose not to use that terminology. Somehow, I think we have more important issues facing us that the various regional dialects in the country. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ClipClop - Your posts give the impression that you are willing to benefit from the freedoms others have died defending but you are unwilling to defend those freedoms for yourself or for the benefit of others. I really hope that is not the message you were trying to convey.

As for instant, violent, indiscriminate action against "them" - I don't see any movement or intention in that direction, especially since we don't yet know who "they" are. However, it is past time to call a halt to acts of terrorism. One good beginning would be to stop maintaining the terrorists from the 1993 WTC bombing in prison. Any identified as connected with Tuesday's action should get short shrift as well.

As for those who dislike the USA - your privilege. I believe we have made mistakes, but we have done much that is good too - maybe the time has come to stop. Stop educating our enemies. Stop feeding them. Stop taking resources away from our own citizens to benefit those who use them to attack us. The next time some country has an earthquake, a volcano, a flood, a plague - send them our condolences. Period.

[Brookes]

pt, nuff said, well said, well done!!! I'm back and ready to debate. I am also saddened by the insipid back biting I am seeing here.

American is the best, Canada is the best!!! Who cares right now really. What is truly important is that as a nation we stand united, that our wonderful neighbor Canada also stands with us. We are blessed to have them as our neighbor. Without their cherished beliefs (similar to ours) of freedom, we would not have the comfort and security that we now so enjoy, due to the fact that our neighbor Canada is so very much like us in our values. My husband is Canadian, my Grandfather is Canadian, good honest folks. Everyone believes that their nation is the finest, of course it is, to them.

America has been asked by the rest of the world of many occassions to be the protector, provider and policeman for the world. We keep saying yes. Then they bash us. Then we say yes again, again being bashed. That my friends is what America is all about, you can kick us time and time again, we get up, dust ourselves off and fight (with words and actions) to reclaim our freedom and independence.

Our opinions are diverse and sometimes odious to others. Gee, the greatest principles of our nation at work. The freedom to express our opinions without reprisal from our government. I have traveled the world quite a bit, (yeah I'm old) I love visiting other countries and seeing their marvelous way of life. However, I still feel "there's no place like home". And because of this I am willing to stand up and fight for ourfreedom. I am willing to loose loved ones (as I have from WWII) to sanctify these freedoms for all of us.

Finger pointing and name calling is simply a way for many to express these opinions. That is their unasaleable right!! Just remember that if you are going to make use of this wonderful right and freedom be prepared to fight for their continuance!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Houdini]

I am greatly sorry if I offended anyone with my post. The fact is the president is going to be under scrutiny. It is going on not only on the board but on the radio and in private conversations all over the country. I will be the first one to admit that I don't know a damn thing about politics. I still, however, feel the same way about his speech. That does NOT however mean that I am not 100% willing to stand by any decisions he makes. I was not the first one to mention the word "folks". Someone else did and it prompted me to post because it had stuck out to me as well. Perhaps I am nit picking but I know for a fact that a number of people my mother knows also commented on it as well. It was something that stuck out to people, not just me. One last thing I would like to say:

I think that people need to stop expecting everyone to think the way they do. People are going to have different opinions. It is one thing to comment on someone's post. But to imply that they shouldn't be making it to begin with is NOT your right. We have moderators for that. They do their job well. Perhaps my post wasn't what you wanted to hear. Perhaps I focused on something you didn't think was important. I did. That's my right. That is the right of everyone on this board. And to lump everyone who has a different opinion than you into a group isn't fair either. Yes I had a problem with Bush's speech but I now feel that I have been placed into the president hating group. I think it is fair enough to say I don't agree with so and so. But to pick appart entire posts and point out every little thing you think is wrong it. And basically imply that it shouldn't have been said in the first place is wrong. There are plenty of people who post who I do not agree with. But I think they have every right to their opinion.

Have I made the same mistakes that I am asking people to beware of. Yes. Have I posted posts that I regretted later. Of course. But I think that the greatest mistake we could all make at this time is to make people feel like they can't speak freely on this board. Some people feel anger and need to get it out. Some people feel frustated and need to get it out. They should be able to.

>>>"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"<<<

[Velvet]

*gulp* Can you believe that, Houdini? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is NOT tearing our country apart, this is a forum where opinions are welcome. At least that's what I've always understood. American's are standing united behind the OFFICE of the President. We have always, and should always continue to criticize our representation in the hopes that they will find something they can use to improve that image (or to just give us a chance to exercise our freedom of speech and vent for a while).

We are not people who are natural passive when it comes to our internal politics, nor are we passive with regards to world politics (or we should be learning not to be). That's all just another part of our proud American heritage...in my eyes.

[ClipClop]

Since everyone intereprets things there own way. Yes, we have freedom of speech, so does Finland. Yes we have the right to life, so does Sweden. The rights to be found in America can be found also across various parts of Europe.

Now that I have said that, I am just waiting for someone to say "Well go live there!"

Right now, no one should be saying America is the best. We're not. If this doesn't prove it, nothing would/will.

And I'm not sorry I said I could never send my loved ones to war. Sorry I'm so selfish. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[pt]

Hey Houdini & Velvet

Go on posting your opinions, of course -- Velvet, I mentioned your comments about C. Powell bec. I had thought he might have been a good choice for VP this go'round & am pleased that he is in the position he holds. So your opinions of his qualifications are of interest as I don't know much about him except he was so impressive during the Gulf War. E-mail me if you prefer - future politicians might not be an appropriate topic for this thread & I don't think he rides, so we can't discuss him on other threads.

Houdini -- You didn't offend me at all. The reason I was amused by your problem with the word "folks" is that I spent two too loooonnnnngggg years at school back east & it seemed that very few "folks" on the east coast at that time had a clue about the US west of the Appalachians - Many had been to Europe several times, but never west of Philadelphia - it made for interesting conversations. People out west (as one elderly cousin defined anyplace west of Albany) and in the south do have different speech patterns than those in the NE - it's part of our jigsaw nation, and yes, I do think it's petty to criticize. But your privilege of course. I'm no fan of Mr. Bush but have to say he's handling this situation well so far - OK, he's not a great speechifier, but this is a time when actions are a lot more important than words IMO.

Anyway, it's gonna be interesting if not fun the next few years -- and this BB is one of the best places for us horse folks (that word again /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) to share our thoughts.

Cheers!

[pt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm not even going to try and defend myself anymore...[ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's good, ClipClop, because your attitude is indefensible.

At the same time, I will defend your right to hold and express that attitude.

Just another freedom you enjoy without earning.

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Right now, no one should be saying America is the best. We're not. If this doesn't prove it, nothing would/will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So exactly what should we all be saying? That America is trash that deserved exactly what we get? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why can't we say that we're the best... I believe it and so do many others. If you don't, then that's fine for you. But stop telling me and many thousands of others what to think... and yes, I'll say it.. if you don't like it, LEAVE!! And don't let the proverbial door hit you on the a$$ on the way out! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And I'm not sorry I said I could never send my loved ones to war. Sorry I'm so selfish. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really think ANYONE wants to send their loved ones to war?? You should be sorry.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[ClipClop]

So you can tell me what to think, but yet I am not aloud to express my opionion's/defend myself?

Oh that's mature. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[Coreene]

Thousands of people have died and lives have been permanently ruined. Grow up, get with the program and stop acting like a bunch of sniveling whiners.

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smart Alec:

...wow, this is exactly what these terrorists wanted...to create a division between people and then bring us down. Let me be the first to congratulate those who are bickering and giving these faceless terrorists exactly what they wanted...(<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Smart Alec, what the terrorists wanted was for each and every American to DIE. They wanted us all to suffer for living in this Land of Satan. They wanted us to be afraid, they way THEY are afraid; always looking over their shoulders wondering if THIS will be the day their secret life is exposed. Freedom of expression and the freedom to disagree is what is denied to terrorists. Can you imagine a soldier in the service of Osama bin Ladin saying, "You know, sir, I don't think we should do it that way, we should do it my way instead."? Heck no.

The bickering you see here, and even ClipClop's (misguided IMHO) opinion is representative of what terrorists all over the world cannot tolerate and wish to eradicate. In a word, it is
FREEDOM.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Janet]

Culpability.

I just heard that the US SUPPORTED Osama bin Laden in earlier decades (when his hatred was focused on the Soviet block). So the US is not entirely blameless in this.

What makes the US a place worth living is that we CAN agree to disagree. Just as (with people) we can "hate the sin but love the sinner", we can love the country without approving of every action of its leaders.

The resistance to the Vietnam War made this a STRONGER nation, not a weaker one.

[Jair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
Quote: ". But stop telling me and many thousands of others what to think... and yes, I'll say it.. if you don't like it, LEAVE!! And don't let the proverbial door hit you on the a$$ on the way out! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're doing just that tle - you're telling any people here with a different opinion to yours that they are not welcome and should leave! Tell me how your viewpoint is then any different from whoever it is you think is telling YOU what to think?

Why don't you leave? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

People are just expressing their opinions and this is what a discussion board is all about. On this particular subject many are expressing how they feel as well - so no one is right or wrong. You can't stop how people feel by telling them to leave just because you don't like what they think!!

I'd say its pretty normal that out of the millions of people out there, there are bound to be a few who disagree with all of us! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This whole situation is horrible and twisted and just downright bizarre. There is no way any of us know how to react outside of shock and sadness, as nothing like this has ever happened before.

I suspect most things written here are done so from the heart and with more feeling then usual. Perhaps we should keep that in mind /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Miniwelsh]

This is unbelievable. I swore I wouldn't read it after I saw the first few backbiting posts, and I agree that everyone is entitled to express their opinions. But hey, in light of the fact that regardless of where you live or which country you think is the best, several thousand people died on Tuesday, probably from every background, nation, gender, sexual preference, etc, can we for once, just agree to disagree for a while and move on?

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Goodyfourshoes!]

edit

[Miniwelsh]

I agree 100% with having the right to express how you feel without being scolded, but do we really need to be insulting and downright rude and nasty to one another? I understand that everyone expresses how they feel differently, but the sarcasm and competition of who can insult the other the best is pretty sad, especially when we think about the BB'ers who haven't logged back on yet /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[tle]

You're right... I jumped off the deep end and for that I apologize. Sorry, but I tend to do that when a snivling whiner who is all talk about how they are entitled to all the freedoms of this country but are UNWILLING to defend those freedoms goes off on another tyraid about how this is a lousy country. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I do believe that if they are that adament about how this country sucks, they need to find a new one. In the All-American way of life... SUE ME!

~~ signed by a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[ClipClop]

Thank you Jair!!!!

My new hero!!!

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

[Heidi]

It's not the disagreements that I find personally offensive and unsettling - it's the nastiness of some of the posts and posters.

I, for one, applaud ClipClop for, at the very least, passionately and eloquently defending her opinion without resorting to the offensive tactics of the purported 'adults' on this BB. Good for you ClipClop.

[jparkes]

ClipClop -
What makes America so great is it's willingness to help anyone anywhere in times of need, whether it be humanitarian or defense. No other country can provide assistance to it's allies like the U.S. We are a caring nation who hates evil and longs for justice even if it's on foreign soil.
It's sad to see such hatred from one of its' own.

[Goodyfourshoes!]

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[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I do believe that if they are that adament about how this country sucks, they need to find a new one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe it is because I "came of age" in the politically active 60s, but I firmly believe that if you think something about this country "sucks" you should put your energies into (non-violently) changing it.

TLE, do you really believe that everyone who thinks that the racism and discrimination in this country (in the 50s and 60s as well as now) sucks should have left, instead of trying to change it?

[Smart Alec]

it is NOT the difference in opinion or opinions expressed in which shames me. It is the WAY in which certain people have expressed their opinions here. I think it is true that we all have the right to freedom and free speech. I am an artist and truly feel the right of freedom is so essential to human life. However, it never hurt anyone to use a bit of *class* *thoughtfullness* and *respect* and realize that children and possibly the families or even survivors could be reading this thread. I agree with Coreene when she said we need to keep things in perspective....let's not forget that thousands of people may be dead and they are still working very hard to uncover victims. All I am asking for is a bit of sensitivity. It could've been anyone of us or anyone of our family members in those buildings. Thankfully most of those I know have been found....but I still wait to hear from others...

[This message was edited by Smart Alec on Sep. 13, 2001 at 04:22 PM.]

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>TLE, do you really believe that everyone who thinks that the racism and discrimination in this country (in the 50s and 60s as well as now) sucks should have left, instead of trying to change it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but like the military who are willing to defend our way of life, the people you refer to are willing to DO something for the betterment of the country...not just complain about it.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClipClop:

And I'm not sorry I said I could never send my loved ones to war. Sorry I'm so selfish. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


War is terrible. That's what makes it a thing to be avoided. Unfortunately, there are events that will trigger war, and then, guess what? You don't have the 'choice' about sending your loved ones. They go anyway! Some choose to go (watch the recruiting numbers go up over the next few weeks). Some will be drafted (if necessary). Some will resist, and will be shamed and hated by those whose families have made the greatest sacrifice. Some will be unable to fight and they will feel guilty and angry that they cannot show their patriotism like their peers do. These (if they are 'sound' looking) will also be hated and shamed by people who are not aware of the underlying medical conditions that prevent them from volunteering.

My parents fought in WWII. My oldest brothers were involved in the Viet Nam War; the youngest had a low draft number and signed up for the Navy making it a career for almost 30 years now. He was caught up in Desert Storm. My nephew, who was top of his Ivy League school class went on an ROTC scholarship and couldn't wait to be commissioned into the Marines. He's fresh out of boot camp, and I can tell you this - right now he is so glad that when the President gives the order, he will be in a position to defend this country.

While you are busy forming your opinions, take a moment to be really, really thankful for the people who just don't 'get' where you're coming from, and boldly go forward to protect those at home. May you grow old enough to experience something in your life that is worth fighting for. Even if it's only the abused child, dog, or mistreated horse next door.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Goodyfourshoes!]

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[Sleepy]

Thank you, Kryswyn, that was very well said.

[gwen]

You hit the nail on the head!! Thank you!

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[N&B&T]

Axiom:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

1st Corollary

"If you make extreme or controversial statements, some people on the BB will, of course, disagree with you, perhaps vehemently."

2nd Corollary

"But, if you make inflammatory statements directed at others personally in an obnoxious manner, expect that many people on the BB will nail you to the wall for it (the rest are biting their tongues really hard)."

Problem:

What kind of discussion or dialog do you really want to have here?

A) Negative, destructive, insulting, vitriolic, etc.

B) Postive, constructive, civil, enlightening, etc.
____

Colin we know will vote for A ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif xoxo NPF, welcome back, Colin).

I concurred with Worthy on another thread that I felt like hugging everyone I knew...however, now I feel like shaking some of you (in a loving and constructive manner of course /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). I enjoy hearing everyone's opinions, thoughts and feelings, but it's very wearying trying to dig the substance of these out of extreme rhetoric... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As Jair and others have pointed out, everyone's feelings are running pretty high. But please, let's not continue to attack each other.

[Houdini]

I think a lot of people forget that America is a baby. Compared to other countries it is still very new. It has managed to become such a world power so quicky because we have been willing to make mistakes and learn from them. To me America is like a boyfriend or a husband. God knows they aren't perfect and they do make mistakes. But when ever they are threatened you would willingly die for them. It isn't really realistic to say one country is better than another. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think what does make America a beautiful place to live is that although we aren't perfect we do strive for perfection and are willing to listen to the American people in hopes of getting as close to perfect as we can get.

>>>"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"<<<

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Houdini:
I think a lot of people forget that America is a baby. Compared to other countries it is still very new. <<<<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For those of you who've read Harry Potter, sometimes America seems a little like Hagrid--a big overgrown kid who *means* well, but doesn't always fully appreciate the consequences of his actions until all hell has broken loose, and then goes all out to fix it. Who is also loving and loyal to his friends, and fiercely protective.
For all his faults, someone you want in your corner when it comes to a fight.

[Jair]

Harry Potter are the best books! I can't wait to see the movie!

Robby Coltrane will be the perfct Hagrid don't you think? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Interesting analogy Ghazzu /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Velvet]

Much to the dismay of some people out here...I'm sure. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I just had work to do and this country needs to keep functioning so the bad guys DO NOT win this one. (And I'm going to still stand by the point that I don't think my opinions were out of line.)

Now, as for Colin Powell, I think he is well qualified (as qualified, and more so, than many of our past presidents) and I also like his personality and most of all his character. I think he is an upstanding man who thinks first and acts second (he's been through enough and understands the repercussions--first hand, in war). He is the sort of person I feel we want representing us. I'm sure he's human and not perfect, but darn it all, he's got integrity!

And, obviously, I will not sign the agreement that is also out here. Not because I want to stir the pot or leave the country, but because I was born and raised in this country, lived through wars and bad political moves and representation, and I want to stay here and maintain my rights to freedom. I want to be able to wave the flag, and I want to also be able to disagree with our government's decisions.

I want it all...the way it's guaranteed in our constitution.

[5]

PT, Velvet - I also would like to see Colin Powell as president. Because of how well he can size up a situation and take proper, effective, corrective action to tough situations. However since he was born in Jamaca, he can't be elected president. But if they would change that rule you bet I would vote for him without a second thought. I felt so during the liberation of Kuwait and I think so now.

[Houdini]

I had a Social Studies teacher in high school who often quoted the line "Question Authority" I forgot who the quote is origionally from. But I remember to this day how much this teacher stressed that the only way to maintain our freedom was to question authority. I find this to be true in many ways. She always stressed that questioning wasn't the same as protesting or fighting against. Questioning meant that you demand to be told why decisions were made and not just accept things because you were told to. I would fight and die for my country but I sure as heck want to know why I'm doing it. I think you (Velvet) would have liked my teacher a lot.

>>>"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"<<<

[Hattie]

and 5 -- good news. He was born in New York. He can be President!

Colin Powell was going to run after the Gulf War in 1992. But he left it up to his wife and she said no. She was afraid of racism and if he won, he assinated because of his race. Would make a damn good president though!!

[jparkes]

...and we are very fortunate to have him a part of this current administration. Wasn't he originally asked to be VP?

[dogchushu]

Colin Powell rocks!

[Hattie]

but how fortunate are we that he is Secretary of State!!!

[Heidi]

I heard Colin Powell speak at a conference a few years ago and it was one of the few times in my life that I felt that I was in the presence of greatness .

[ImpsDelight]

Guess I'm the one dissenter among Powell devotees, but I wasn't impressed with his involvement and subsequent denial of involvement with Iran-Contra, which let Oliver North take all the heat. Seems Powell, too, suffered memory loss (so he said) /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[5]

Are you sure? That's great news if it is but we need him where he is right now. He wasn't too shabby last time the militant ragheads attacked. Too bad 'The Bear' is retired.

[Midge]

If you would like an interesting view of Colin Powell, read Norman (okay, I'm gonna butcher this /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)Schwarchkopf's book.

I heard Powell speak at a Commputer Associates event in New Orleans, must have been in '96, and I felt I was hearing a stump speech.

[Duffy]

My cousin FINALLY was able to check in!! Thank goodness she's ok. I've been scared to post anything about her. She works in the building next to the WTC. I don't remember the exact order of when she did what, but after she'd LEFT her office, she realized she needed to go BACK to get more of her client investment information of some kind. One of the towers collapsed shortly after she left her office that second time. She said she couldn't see anything, had trouble breathing, etc. She then walked home to find her husband and daughter safely there.

[Mariequi]

How can that be? The report says the FEMA folks are well supplied but the State and others aren't. That they're concerned about the rain tonight and those digging don't have ponchos and are coming back with bloody hands from no gloves. How could that be? The big Golf tournament didn't go on and they donated the five or fifteen million for the cause and there are no gloves? There will be the need for that and more money after the digging has ceased, of course, but what about now? Any ideas? They say to deliver any supplies to the Chelsea Piers.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
but how fortunate are we that he is Secretary of State!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno, Hattie... I hear that the VP job is quite the position of power... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I'm pretty darn glad he is the SoS.

[Kellybird]

My BB love-list for today:
heidi
DMK
Becca--we may disagree on things aside from Armani suits but I luv ya!
JAIR
ClipClop--*shhh* I agree with you on a few points, which we won't discuss now because there's been enough fighting /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and it seems like you could use some hugs

My BB 'let's have some more constructive criticism' list fo rthe day:
JumpHigh--if you're still around here--you may not like it but I'd rather be called a "snivelling peace-lover" anyday than a "bitter, nationalistic, overzealous, etc. etc. war-lover" Maybe it's just me but war is not something I'd like to encourage, call me unpatriotic if you will. Trust me, I love America, it does have its shortcomings, all countries do, but it's a great place. We try to help out, we try to stop fighting, we try to be good. When bad things happen, no one wants a war. If we have one, so be it, I'll support our cause, maybe not gladly, but I'll do it. OK, done.

and to pt--that 'indefensible attitude' comment you made was rude and uncalled for. You may not agree with ClipClop, but tolerate his/her opinions. Intolerant attitudes caused this whole tragic situation, let's not fuel another one.

OK, now I'm really done /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Can we all try to get along, PLEASE? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~KBird

[Canter]

Since Tuesday morning I have been too deeply touched by the events taking place in the United States to post more than a few brief comments on this BB.

I can't tell you guys how much it upsets me to open these last pages on this thread to read about these kinds of disagreements.

We don't all have to agree. In fact the world is a much better place for it.

Congress is playing nice. Can't we?

[Velvet]

But she did save him from the scrutiny that the Pres and his family are under. Maybe we can get him to run in the next election (he'll make it...there are enough of us who don't care about skin color and prefer to judge a person by their deeds and character), and then get the media to also take a step back and make the office one that engenders more respect. (I freely admit that it is part of my problem with Bush--it's easy to criticize when everyone else does. Maybe that makes me a lemming?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[wtywmn4]

Look at this BB, and at the many threads that are going. We are so VERY lucky to be living where we do. We post what we think without fear. We say what's in our hearts, without fear.

Our lives have all been changed. Whether intimately or not. Our innocence is gone. But we have more depth than any terrorist organization can possibly understand. And with this, we will rebuild and survive.

It makes me so very proud of our country, and so very sad our world has come to this.

[pt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and to pt--that 'indefensible attitude' comment you made was rude and uncalled for. You may not agree with ClipClop, but tolerate his/her opinions. Intolerant attitudes caused this whole tragic situation, let's not fuel another one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but IMO you're dead wrong.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

I hold with that axiom, and will defend ClipClop or your or anyone's right to express their opinion - INCLUDING MY OWN.

Because I respect everyone's right to have and express their own opinion does NOT imply respect for the actual opinions.

I respect CC's right to her opinion and her right to express it. I think the particular opinion which was under discussion is hogwash.

And I have a right to that opinion, and to express it.

Works both ways.

[Kellybird]

pt, I do understand that you have the freedom to express your opinion, and that's fine, I wasn't talking aobut you expressing your opinon. I was simply saying that your comment about it was kind of snippy. You are welcome to say that I'm "dead wrong" if that's how you see it, but I will simply say tha tI disagree and leave it at that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Nothing about your actual viewpoint, I was just slightly shocked to see such a harsh and condscending comment about something that cannot be proven one way or the other--an opinion. Neither of you are 'right,' but I was hoping people would choose more friendly or at least civil ways to say what's no their minds.

I honestly didn't mean to insult your idea or opinion, just the wording seemed kind of strong. Maybe I'm just very hypersensitive. peace? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~KBird

[pt]

Hey, KB -

we're all sensitive these days - of course, peace. After all, you're entitled to express your opinion too - and I totally defend that right. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One war at a time is plenty! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

[Jumphigh83]

Kellybird, go back and read Krswyns post..EXCELLENT!!! Someday YOU TOO will find something in your life important enough to put YOUR PERSONAL feelings aside and DEFEND that cause unconditionally...I hope... What a post...God Bless America...the greatest country in the world. I have had enough of the whiners trying pitifully to defend their cowardice with righteousness. Good thing for you SOMEBODY was willing to die for your right judge this country and to make comments about others patriotism...Thank you vets...There are alot of us out here who appreciate your bravery, patriotism and sacrifices!

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Jumphigh83]

Just read this in my email and HAD to come back and post it here! I copied and pasted and didnt correct some of the typos but you will get the picture!

Thinking of you all, this seemed worth passing along:

FRWD: Sent to me by a friend. How true, how true!!

I believe it was written by a teenager from Florida.

Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America.
You hit the Pentagon,but you missed America.
You used helpless American bodies,to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL
missed America.
Why? Because of something you guys will never understand. America isn't abouta building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers,America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of bodies.
America is about an IDEA. An idea thatyou can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out howto, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursueHappiness. (No guarantees that you'll
reach it, but you can sure try!)


Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany "If you cannot see my point, then feel my pain." This concept is alien to Americans.
We live in a country where wedon't have to see your point. But you're free to have one.
We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're free to say one.
Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you.
There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America,America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called.
And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it.


Most of the time, it's apretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're crossed in a cowardlymanner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit. Wait until you see what we do with thatSpirit, this time.


Sleeptight, if you can. We're coming.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[CTT]

I want to forget the return to the airport flight. That right there has made me un easy about things. nothing is worse than being airborn and hearing your piolet say we are being orderd to return to Sea Tac and then feeling the plane just bank it and a then experience a verry uncomforting landing. When I found out about the NY situation a man yelled it out loud and most of us thought he was crazy. I rember walking off my flight back into Seattle and feeling this eary numb feeling come over me. the air port was a skairy silence while people swarmed around the TV's You could feel the tension around and you could feel the panick come over you. I stood there looking at the TV and still had no clue what went on. The first thing I did was head to Northwest to have them infourm Joost that I was badk in and that he needed to find me. Then the calls pured in to my cell and I knew that this was not some dream but real and that I wasn't just on the plane dreaming this. I wish I was though. I still have a hard time watching the news cause so many times I was there. The first thing I did after the attack and I notified everyone I was safe, was to call everyne I knew who worked in the towers to make sure they were safe. Everyone I personaly know made it but what if there was someone I once knew that worked in the towers????

Now I sit here and altough it is 5 days passed Im still numb. Sleep was very little for both Joost and I and I thought to myself how lucky that nither of us were on those flights. But would something go wrong for either of us today? We are not the only country that is frightend and hearing the fear from just his family and friends who call it made this whole situation more upsetting. We are Lucky to have such a devoted nation and at the same time the help of countrys around. I heard this and am not sure were exactly but it stuck.... " this horrible tragedy might not bring us another WW3 but instead world peace cause for once in our history so many countrys at once stand vigial uniteing us all." One man brought tragedy to us but at the same time he didn't judt hit the heart of America but the heart of the world and we are verry lucky to have the suport we do. I recieved the following from a friend of mine today and would like to pass it on...

An open letter to a terrorist:

Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the
Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take
out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed
America.

Why? Because of something you guys will never understand. America isn�t
about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military
centers, America isn�t about a place, America isn�t even about a bunch of
bodies. America is about an IDEA. An idea, that you can go someplace where
you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part,
like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No guarantees that you�ll
reach it, but you can sure try!)

Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany:
If you can not see my point, then feel my pain.

This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don�t have
to see your point. But you�re free to have one. We don�t have to listen to
your speech. But you�re free to say one. Don�t know where you got the
strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don�t agree with each
other in this country, almost as a matter of pride. We�re a collection of
guys that don�t agree, called States. We united our individual states to
protect ourselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the
spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it�s your country.

If you�re free enough.

Yeah, we�re fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time. That�s an
unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and
easy about the world you live in. It�s unfortunate too, because people start
to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered
badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when England burned
Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn�t turn out like England thought it was
going to, and it�s not going to turn out like you think, either. Sorry, but
you�re not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.

No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and
so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger. Horrific
idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we used it
anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used �em both.
Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project. Told me once, that right up
until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether
the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fissioning
chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway,
because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American
Resolve?

So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real
estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we�re probably at war with
random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they�re safe. Just like the
Barbary Pirates did, IIRC. Better start sleeping with one eye open.

There�s a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country,
looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if
they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied
out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was.
First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns. The
ones that didn�t end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then
(especially in south Florida), but you�re only the newest PITA, not the
first.

You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don�t live in
America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it�s called. And
killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won�t change it. Most
of the time, it�s a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we�re
crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of
Spirit.

Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.

[Jumphigh83]

Coming back with

> IF THIS IS A TRUE ACCOUNT OF ANOTHER'S PERSPECTIVE ON AMERICA, I AM IN
AWE.........
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator.
What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the
Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
; who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on
the streets of Paris. I was there.
I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.
Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on
the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not
once, but several times-and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on
our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws,
are getting American dollars
from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them.
When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in
trouble?
I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco
earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked
around.
They will come out of this thing with their flag high.
And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands
that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."
Stand proud, America!
I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you
can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends
until this letter is sent to every person on the web.
a copy and paste...

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
War _is_ terrible. That's what makes it a thing to be avoided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A price is paid by someone or many someones when a nation goes to war. And it is a terrible event and this particular war is going to cause many to lose their lives which saddens me no end,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My parents fought in WWII. My oldest brothers were involved in the Viet Nam War; the youngest had a low draft number and signed up for the Navy making it a career for almost 30 years now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My father was a naval aviator for 30 some odd years. He never went to Vietnam so the horrors of being on the front lines are not ingrained in his memories. My father in law was involved on the front lines of World War II. Listening to both men, I hear the same goals with different perspectives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He's fresh out of boot camp, and I can tell you this - right now he is so glad that when the President gives the order, he will be in a position to defend this country.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My 12 year old son desparately wants to join up and fight for his country. As his mother, I don't like the idea, but as an American, I understand the reasons why. He is convinced the special forces such as the Navy Seals and Green Berets will be the ones to smoke out those who are behind the atrocities.

There are so many opinions and ideas out there which, thankfully, are allowed to be said without fear of retribution, regarding how America should go forward to rid the world of terrorism. I have adopted the wait and see attitude and have kept myself informed by reading interviews and other news articles about the players in this.

After watching the Vice President, Dick Cheney, yesterday, I have come to the conclusion, he is one tough/smart s.o.b. (and I mean that in the kindest sense of the word). No doubt in my mind that with Cheney and Powell (despite past stuff)--those 2 will determine the fate of those who committed the attacks.

I did not lose anyone last Tuesday, but I came close for my lawyer friend could have been in the federal courthouse. I found her later online and the sense of relief was overwhelming.

I am still headed to Europe on Oct 17, I cannot let someone else control or determine my life's destinations.

[tle]

Thought I'd pass on this story, especially since it does have its "horse-related" content. It's true, although told to me 3rd hand.

I rode in a Captain Mark Phillips clinic in Michigan this past weekend. After talking to the farm owner, neither he nor Capt. Phillips wanted to cancel the clinic because of terrorist attacks... but rather wanted to hold it... basically a symbol that we will go on and get stronger. Anyway, evidently on Tuesday morning, Mark was ON a flight from London to Boston when the WTC was hit. The story went on to say that the pilot called him to the cockpit. Knowing he had military experience, our own coach of the Olympic team was requested to stay in the cockpit and, with an axe that is kept on board, make sure NO ONE got through that door as they were diverted to Greenland. Pretty spooky.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!