Body Image and Riding

[Portia]

Ummmm, I've hesitated to post this, as I'm not quite sure how to make it sound encouraging and not like criticism. Just take my word for it, please, that this is not intended to put anyone down at all.

I've never seen Cody Baird in person, but from her success she must be a tremendous young rider. Based on one photo of her in the Chronicle, and I may be wrong about this, it appeared that she maybe still has a bit of baby fat -- perfectly fine for a girl her age -- and she perhaps doesn't fit the "image" of big-time hunter and Eq riders that some trainers say is so important. I CERTAINLY do not want to turn this into an "is she fat?" discussion -- I would never want to do that to any person, especially a young girl at a critical stage in her development who doesn't need that kind of pressure. The point is, with all the problems young girls have with body image, anorexia, bulimia, and other eating disorders, I think it is wonderful that someone who isn't 5'9" and 110 lbs. can win consistently at the highest levels of hunter competition. I hope her success sends a signal to others that it is skill and talent that really matters, and not whether you wear a size 4.

[Portia]

Ummmm, I've hesitated to post this, as I'm not quite sure how to make it sound encouraging and not like criticism. Just take my word for it, please, that this is not intended to put anyone down at all.

I've never seen Cody Baird in person, but from her success she must be a tremendous young rider. Based on one photo of her in the Chronicle, and I may be wrong about this, it appeared that she maybe still has a bit of baby fat -- perfectly fine for a girl her age -- and she perhaps doesn't fit the "image" of big-time hunter and Eq riders that some trainers say is so important. I CERTAINLY do not want to turn this into an "is she fat?" discussion -- I would never want to do that to any person, especially a young girl at a critical stage in her development who doesn't need that kind of pressure. The point is, with all the problems young girls have with body image, anorexia, bulimia, and other eating disorders, I think it is wonderful that someone who isn't 5'9" and 110 lbs. can win consistently at the highest levels of hunter competition. I hope her success sends a signal to others that it is skill and talent that really matters, and not whether you wear a size 4.

[Louise]

Amen Portia. To have a role model like this is truely wonderful. Eating disorders have become so prevelent(or were they always there and just never noticed). It is so important for people to realize that it is what you think, what you do and how you do it that is important, not how close you are to some idiots idea of perfection.

[CTT]

When I knew Jennifer Berol Bliss ( back in the days when she had bonie and Mocha) She was not a tall slanky rider she actualy had some meet on her. But she has become a well known rider and in My book has acomplished many new worlds. Go Jennifer!

[JrLeagueGoddess]

As a weight challenged rider ( who was the ideal weight her whole life until getting married...I must be VERY happy!)

I am glad to see it also...I wonder how some of the younger girls get round...they look like they need a big meal or two...or three.

I think we should take off some of the emphasis on weight. (and its not cuz Im a chubby girl either)I know a couple of riders I mean REAL atheletes who are my size...and it is a shame they would be penalized because of their weight.

[Lily]

I agree that it's great to have role models of all shapes and sizes. I was very thin as a junior rider, but didn't realize how unhealthy I must have looked until I came home from college for the first time and the barn manager told me I had lost my "gaunt look." Riding was what kept me so thin though- it certainly wasn't my diet because I ate chocolate cake for breakfast all the time!

[Snowbird]

Portia,
And, it not just weight it's someone God gave short legs. And, those with the long torso that make them look perched. We had a little girl here with extra short arms. She couldn't get a bend in that little arm.

What I think is good is to face the reality. That's what we're all about. Our horses are not perfect either. If they were we couldn't afford them. What matters is that you learn to ride.

Those who are the beautiful passengers are like the cover girls that no one can identify with because the rest of us are just not that perfect.

Joy is in the skill, and pleasure is in the dream, what keeps us all going is the HOPE that there will be that perfect day when everything comes together. When you have that day it doesn't matter what the judge thinks, or even if anyone else is there.

[chief]

Thanks Portia, for a long overdue acknowledgement that great riders aren't measured by the size in their Tailored Sportsman's! I struggled for years with poor body image dating back to my junior years... in our barn, the thinner the better, and our trainer had no problem letting you know when you gained a few pounds.

This body image still plagues me, but I am starting to accept that while I am not "overweight", I do not have a small body frame. And, I can use this to my advantage- strength, leverage and balance. I've noticed less emphasis on riders' (especially Eq.) weight over the years, and thank god, as it's very destructive. But just a note- on the other spectrum, as riders we owe it to ourselves and our horses to remember we are athletes, so no matter your "size", it's important to stay fit, eat right, etc.

And, a little insight about "SIZE"... it's all relative. I work in fashion and it's crazy what designers will do to manipulate the sizes basically so a real size 10 woman can wear a 6 in their clothes... bottom line is that she'll keep buying that designer's clothes to wear the 6!

[Wicky]

I'm not too fat, I'm too short....

This body image thing is something I've struggled with for years, denying that it bothers me..... Actually it's one of the reasons I've tended toward jumpers for years, rather than eq. But, s**** all of them, anyway. I'm now old enough to want to have fun, and to measure myself against myself. Off to the eq ring!

BUT, in one of my photos over fences that I bought, I found myself carefully shaving a few pounds off the thighs and hips with a magic marker.....

It's scary, seeing some of the people with eating disorders. Where do they get the energy to ride? No muscle mass.... The body needs some fat. You DIE BEFORE you get to no body fat.

(I still want to create a movement to return to those canary yellow breeches with the flaps, and the jackets that covered the butt. Anyone want to join?)

[Flash44]

At 5' even, a few extra pounds makes me look roly poly. So I run. I've noticed that 30 min of jogging 3x a week makes a big difference in the way I look. Even though my weight does not really change, I look thinner and tighter through the waist and thighs.

[jch]

I hope that some of the junior riders see these wonderful post and take notice! It is what you do with what you've got that makes you great. If our sense of self worth comes from our appearance, it's a sure bet you're going to lose those looks (plastic surgery can only tuck so much) will you lose your sense of self worth, too? As a junior high teacher, I see smart, capable girls, some boys too, who constantly put themselves down and second guess themselves because they aren't tall and thin and beautiful and handsome and muscular and etc. What a shame to waste so much energy on what we don't look like instead of loving what we CAN DO!!

[A/O Hunter Rider]

Well I just have to respond to this topic!

I have been riding for almost 15 yrs. and I have always been a little overweight (but I am a healthy weight for my height) - it was hard for me in the beginning, but then I came to a revalation. It really doesn't matter what size you are, it is how well you get the job done.

I used to do the junior eq and I remember getting penalized, and I would wonder why - because I would have just as good/or even better rounds then the people who won the classes. I now compete in the A/O, and pre-green divisions up here in Canada, and I have not found that there has been any discrimination against me - I even have people asking me to ride their horses (which is the biggest honour!). I am a fit, strong, and skilled rider and I think that is what really matters when it comes to riding!

It is really sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif to see these girls in the junior/childrens/even the pony divisions so worried about their weight and what they look like - you do not have to be a skinny minnie to be successful in this sport! I wish that this mentality would disappear, so that our riders can develop and be focused on their riding goals - and not whether or not they are a size 6 (or even smaller)!

[salsalito]

I agree, I remember being at my old barn about two years ago, and the trainer telling my friend that she could go far in the hunter world because she had the right "look". She was tall and super skinny. I remember thinking disgustedly that such a good and well respected trainer would not just think this, but say it in front of many people. It is ridiculous that young girls think they have to conform to such images, I should know being a teenager! Riding is a sport, we need to treat it like a sport, not like a fashion/model runway. We need to give EVERYONE a fair chance, after all, we are being judged on skill (of course a nice horse helps...), not on looks.
~antonia~

[G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A/O Hunter Rider:
It is really sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif to see these girls in the junior/childrens/even the pony divisions so worried about their weight and what they look like - you do not have to be a skinny minnie to be successful in this sport! I wish that this mentality would disappear, so that our riders can develop and be focused on their riding goals - and not whether or not they are a size 6 (or even smaller)!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad to say that I think body image is not as big of a deal in riding as it used to be. I'm 5'3" and a size 3 (i'm also 13), but I tend to be overzealous in my eating habits sometimes. <g> But I'm glad to say that i DON'T worry about my weight in the riding ring - i've seen such a variety of weights at both the 'C' and 'AA' levels, and as long as the rider can ride well (i've seen ALL weights ride wonderfully and beautifully), than who really gives? i for one, don't. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif For those of you who are naturally skinny, awesome! for those of you who aren't, awesome as well. I think everyone should be happy w/ their weight and since there is a HUGE vareity in weights in the hunter ring these days, this just helps to promote this message. i love it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Scoutie]

Well it's lunch time, and I'm thinking about food (not that I'm ever NOT thinking about FOOD!). I'll be GOOD and eat a healthy little lunch. I'll also think BAD thoughts about Cadbury's Milk Chocolate Mini Easter Eggs. Then I'll think about what kind of exercise I need to do to work it off! Ever since I started focusing on being healthy and fit, I've been pretty comfortable with my body image, which was not always the case!
It's not important how much you weigh or if can you fit into a size "whatever"! How do you FEEL? Are you energetic or are you tired? Are you in shape to do what you want to do, or do you huff & puff?
Diets really don't work, but a commitment to taking good care of yourself with a some sort of program you can stick with for the rest of you life does work. If you treat your body right, it will treat you right, and then you can feel good about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm always struggling with those last 5 to 10 lb.! But focusing on feeling good and being healthy, rather than the pounds or fitting into a particular pair of pants, has worked for me. Also, it's hard to be good to yourself, if you don't like yourself, and have self esteem problems. On the other hand, if you're not good to yourself, you may never like yourself. It can be a vicious cycle! So you gotta start somewhere! Stop focusing on the scales and the mirror! If you ride, you are and athelete! Take yourself seriously, and treat yourself like one! Before you start screaming, "Shut up, already, with the 'Rah, Rah' Scoutie!", here are some pretty cool inetactive educational web sites on health, diet and exercise that some of you might want to explore, and many of these discuss body image, too:

www. gymamerica.com
www.cyberdiet.com (http://www.cyberdiet.com)
www.efit.com (http://www.efit.com)
www.allhealth.com (http://www.allhealth.com)
www.diettalk.com (http://www.diettalk.com)
www.ediets.com (http://www.ediets.com)


[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-14-2000).]

[heelsdown]

I think a lot of people are too focused on numbers, as in "how many lbs. they weigh." One thing I learned in a long rehab program for my knee (the therapists were great, they decided since I had to be there every day they might as well do my whole body too!) is that muscle weighs more than fat. The body fat index is a much better way to see how fit you are than just weighing yourself on a scale. And though it can seem disheartening when you realize that an hour's worth of spinning only burns about one good chocolate eclair that's not the whole story. You're building muscle so you're metabolism is going up and you're burning more of the calories all the time...

Overall fitness is the most important thing. In the h/j world the look to strive for has been the tall, slender, long legged rider. This has been perpetuated by many of our top trainers. It should be replaced by an emphasis on overall fitness and effectiveness because no matter how fit you are you can't grow your legs any longer or change from a med. body build to a beanpole hummingbird (and stay healthy). And this comes from someone who was blessed w/ long legs and relatively /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifslender body build. Kit Kat anyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif?

In the late 70s when I was a junior I witnessed first hand more than one case of anorexia and the worst part was that the parents seemed to be in utter denial. Don't know how they managed to stay on their horses.

I think Cody Baird looks just great to me and I hope she doesn't read this thread and get the wrong idea.

[Portia]

Heelsdown -- that's why I hesitated to post the thread at all, as I too would hate her or anyone else to get the wrong idea. I think it is an important topic, and I was trying to make the point that it is good to see talented people with different body types winning and her sucesses seemed a good example. However, I didn't want to suggest that this obviously talented, effective, and fit young rider was in any way unattractive.

Body image is such a delicate issue. I remember the fuss after the Oscars a couple of years ago over Kate Winslett, when she wore that lovely antique looking gown and some people were saying she looked fat. What? She looked gorgeous. No, she wasn't Hollywood super-skinny; instead, she was equally (or more) beautiful in a somewhat different type. Different body types can be and are equally fit, effective, and attractive, and I hoped this would be an example of that to those who think they aren't good enough because they don't fit someone else's professed idea of the ideal.

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 03-14-2000).]

[wadino]

I'm no skinny minney to say the least. I'm 5' and like 113 pounds. some of it is muscle some of it is baby fat. but I could care less what other people think of me, as long as I feel good about myself. I run about 1 mile every night and I can do it without like dieing which means I am in shape, right? Well I gtg...see ya!!


Ryan

[heelsdown]

It is terribly ironic that the "role models" our young women have starve themselves to the point of looking like a WWII photo from a concentration camp, and then get breast implants to give themselves feminine curves!

My overall view from frequenting the WEF showgrounds was a positive one. Most of the riders looked healthily fit, seemed like the really young riders (pre-junior) were more on the too-skinny side, but we don't really have any junior riders (so I'm not tapped into their world) at our barn and this was just a very basic overview/gut reaction (excuse the pun.) I vividly remember George Morris's PH columns in the 70s and early 80s when he would frequently make comments about a rider's conformation and weight. I'm glad he doesn't do that anymore.

Cody if you're reading this:

You're a superb rider blessed with equally superb horses and parents with the means and wherewithal to help you with your goals and dreams. I am eager with anticipation to watch your promising future enfold. I am certain you're getting plenty of excercise, stay fit and don't change a thing (except wear an approved helmet, a lot of people are looking up to you now, set a good example and protect that noggin /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) You look MAHVELOUS DAHLING and more importantly you ride even better.

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 03-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Flash44]

I just looked at the East West pix and thought Cody looked perfectly normal and average weight. She did not look heavy at all. And her body did not seem to hamper her performance or affect the judges in a negative way whatsoever. I guess there are so many female riders who resemble LC that normal weight people look heavy.

[Trixie]

I'm 15, 5'4" or thereabout, and around 100 lbs. I don't count calories. I do eat. I get comments about being anorexic (I ate lunch around 4 instead of noon, but that was because of the meds I was on, which I eventually told my doctor I couldn't take cause they made my appetite far too off balance) or bulemic, neither of which was the case.
I have friends with eating disorders, some of whom I've made get help. There's been other disorders too, but we won't get into that. There's a girl at my school who clearly tries impossibly hard to be perfect, I've never seen her eat, and she's absolutely anal about everything being done perfectly. She's blonde and incredibly skinny. There's no reason for her not to eat.
There's no reason for anyone to feel un-beautiful. I've met few truly ugly people. The people that I call ugly have been pretty on the outside, but inside they're just plain nasty. Isn't that what counts anyways?

[Black Market Radio]

I think Cody is a total cutie! I went and looked at the picture and there is nothing wrong with her. The experience I have had with younger girls with a little more "baby fat" on them is that they grow taller and thin out. My cousin did that. She was by no means a small girl, and then one summer she shot up about 4 inches or so and it all thinned out. One of my very best friends is struggling with Bulemia, she is getting help, but it is so hard. Now she doesn't eat hardley at all. People have thought that I am anorexic, because I am thin (5'3 and about 100 pounds) but I am also a size 7. I don't look like it, but because I work out at the gym every night my stomach muscles have grown /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think size matters as much as fitness. Of course it is more sensible to eat right and stay in shape. I am trying to gain weight, which is a major struggle for me. It is so hard, when I was in the Marines I had 3 squares a day, and now that I am out I don't have nearly the amount of food I had when I was in because I don't have an entire caffeteria full of food! But I do eat very healthy and drink fresh sqeezed orange/carrot juice everyday. We grow wheatgrass as well but I can't get into that http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif I think I will leave the grass munching to my equine companion /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Anyway, I do think it is sad that people place si much on body image. ANd I think it is great to see good role models out there for us and the younger juniors. You go Cody! You are AWESOME!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lynne]

Heelsdown, your comment about George Morris reminded me of one of my favorite books as a kid, 'A Very Young Rider'. It follows a girl who shows ponies on the circuit in the 70's. At one point in the book, she reveals that her sister, a medal/maclay rider, crash dieted to the point of fainting after her trainer said that only skinny girls will win. I'm sure you can guess who this trainer was...

[G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lynne:
Heelsdown, your comment about George Morris reminded me of one of my favorite books as a kid, 'A Very Young Rider'. It follows a girl who shows ponies on the circuit in the 70's. At one point in the book, she reveals that her sister, a medal/maclay rider, crash dieted to the point of fainting after her trainer said that only skinny girls will win. I'm sure you can guess who this trainer was...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know where i can find a copy of this book? i'd love to read it

[AHC]

Jax, you might check amazon.com Even if a book is out of print, they can usually get it. The author is Jill Krementz, and she did other books like A Very Young Dancer, etc.

[Portia]

You know, I based my initial post on a picture that was in the printed Chroncle. Then I looked at the East/West picture online and I thought - well, you're a dummy aren't you? The one I saw was apparently just a bad picture --- God knows I have plenty of bad photos of me hiding in drawers never to see the light of day! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif I hope the point still stands though, that while she's just darling, she's not tall and willowy and incredibly skinny, and she still wins. So she is still a good example to show those who say it is necessary to have the "right" body type to win that they're wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jumphigh83]

From the Queen of the "wrong" body type (medical condition and medications) I say to hell with the stereotype and ride because you enjoy it! I don't care what people think (they rarely know the whole story)! If you don't get out and DO something, that "baby fat" will never go away! Don't stay off horses because this one or that one has a nasty comment. Getting out and excersizing can only HELP your health! As for my horse(s), I have seen plenty of "skinny" riders that ride like a pile driver and plenty of "big" riders that are soft and effective. Be sympathetic to your horse and do your best and let George Morris and the anorexia foundation go pound salt.

[Goodyfourshoes!]

I am a Dressage rider, and let me tell you, if there is any discrimination going on - it's here. Wow, I can't believe the number of people (tack shop owners, judges, etc.) who normally would never think of insulting (yes, insulting) people in public will tell me I am too fat to ride. I am 5', and am far from grossly overweight, but I could stand to lose 15 pounds. My height makes me look even rounder. Some people have no idea what it's like to go into a tack shop and be told straight out that there is no way I will ever fit into off the rack boots, my legs are too fat. It's a mortifying feeling, it makes you want to crawl under the carpet. I eat healthy, well balanced meals, ride 4 times a week, but cannot lose that extra weight. I spend all my disposable income on my horse - I cannot afford to join a gym. I walk twice a week, but I live in a big city where going out by yourself at night (I work full-time) is dicey.

I am comfortable with the fact I will never look like Nicole Uphoff, but I love riding, and want to continue - despite I can't find a decent pair of boots without spending $800!! It is heartbreaking.

[Jumphigh83]

Shop at 1824 and they will NEVER make you fel that way EVER!!! (www.1824catalog.com (http://www.1824catalog.com))

[AMom]

As a junior I definitely struggled with my weight/self-image. My trainer--a very thin adult at 5'7", 108 pounds--had also been an overweight junior whose trainer watched her like a hawk and was rather cruel about it. Luckily for me, her experiences with her trainer and crash diets meant that she stressed fitness over thinness. As a result, although I was never as thin as the other girls, I had a very successful junior career. Ironically, I did much better in the medals than I did in the hunters because I was strong and had good skills--and a horse who didn't jump all that round in the hunters but could jump a big jump. I didn't show in eq on the flat though because we both thought I would be penalized there.

Were there instances of prejudice? Yeah, I think there probably were. But I think I won when I deserved to. I do remember one show in particular where I won two medals and was champion Jr. Hunter. The day before the show started I couldn't pull my boots on and missed my first class. This is not the way you want to start ANY show, not the mention a big A show. Got the boots stretched, pulled myself together, and rode as well as I could. I was rewarded with some really great wins, but felt so awful about myself. My trainer and I ran into the judge in the horse show office after the show ended when he complimented me on my riding and told me he thought I would be almost unbeatable if I lost weight. Talk about emotional roller coaster!
There was another show when I watched a girl who definitely didn't have a "perfect rider's body" but rode so well and was lovely to watch. Artie Hawkins obviously thought so to because she won a couple of medals there while he was judging. (I at least made every workoff).
Anyway, I guess my point is that there are judges out there who are more than willing to judge horsemanship over appearance. My thoughts as an adult who has finally started to master the weight thing is that physical fitness is the most important thing for a rider. Run, bike, swim, lift weights--whatever. I ride better now than I did then not because I'm thinner, but because I am so much stronger and have more endurance. Even if you are lucky enough to have multiple horses to ride, I think additional conditioning is important. Just my $.2--sorry it's so long, guess I have a lot of issues related to this!

[heelsdown]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CWP:
I was rewarded with some really great wins, but felt so awful about myself. My trainer and I ran into the judge in the horse show office after the show ended when he complimented me on my riding and told me he thought I would be almost unbeatable if I lost weight. Talk about emotional roller coaster!
!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My God! The rudeness of some people! To say something like that.... no wonder 13 year olds are eating laxatives and making themselves throw up.

I hope the young women on this board are reading these threads. I know they read the ones where I try to get them to wear approved helmets! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope that by speaking of these issues openly, and within the context of a sport whose love we all share, that positive change can be effected. Proper nutrition during a young womans growing years builds a foundation of solid bone, good physical and mental health/happiness.

I watched Katie Monahan Prudent compete at the Sunday Grand Prix on Belladonna March 5. She is a superb example of fit and strong rider and does not resemble Alley McBeal. And she won. There were 71 entries, including her husband /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and Katie beat them all on her mare. I took a bunch of photos that day, I think this is her... on the last fence of the jump off. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=275742&a=2364121&p=17581134

You can a look at the rest of the album, this one might not be her! But she's there somewhere.

I'll shut up and go back to work now.

[JerzeyPrincess]

well i'm 5'1" and 115lbs...for a long time I thought that I was fat etc etc...especially cause a lot of my riding friends are my weight but 5'7" or taller. I ride 5+ horses Saturday and Sunday and I'll start riding everyday once I get my liscense. My mom kept telling me "muscle weighs more than fat" and finally when I was shopping with friends and they made me try on those trendy capri pants they couldn't beleive the muscle i had in my calf. since then i've been ok with my weight, since i realized for once i hadda let my madre be right LoL

[RZ]

A great example of an imperfect (ok, overweight) but effective rider with great equitation is Alan Chesler. He rides in the senior grand prix at WEF, and I was really impressed with him despite his size. That said, I agree wholeheartedly with the other poster that we can't forget that this is an athletic discipline like any other (actually unlike any other, because there's another living thing involved) and all riders should prepare like any other athlete -- to be fit and work out like competitive athletes do in other sports. Plus, the horses deserve to have fit riders on their backs. I'm in no way implying that the body type should be skinny and tall -- but with a level of fitness to enable a sensitive and balanced ride etc.

[Flash44]

You are all so right! I mean, don't we monitor our horse's feed for quality and exercise them regularly? We are competing as well. If you can do something, even run in place, for 30 minutes 3x a week, your fitness and health will improve immensely.

An idea for those who are short on time and money - get a Rubbermaid step stool from Walmart (about $7) and a step aerobics video and do it in your living room. Or watch Want to be a Millionaire or something.

Another thought - what extremely successful female GP rider has the "wrong" body type? About 5'2, fit but not skinny? Initials M.G-E?

[RZ]

Heels -- I looked at your photos, and saw the one you took after Nona went off course. I was there too - let me tell you I was SO upset for Rythmical! One of my favorite horses of all time. They definitely would have won the class, I don't know what she was thinking, going around the combination that way. I saw her in tears afterward, I felt really bad for her.

One thing's for sure, it sure proves that "it happens to everyone." lol

[WarPaint]

Well, I am definitely NOT the perfect build... I admit to being semi-overweight, but it does not in any way affect my ability to ride well and effectively. I do jumpers where you can't really get penalized for that, but I still feel that you can be an effective rider in ANY discipline and be a less-than-perfect size. I am fairly fit and have never had a problem w/ getting worn out or fatigued at horse shows when I'm doing 3 horses in the same class at a show in the 90 degree heat (well, no more than anybody else /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) When I posted the address to my website on another BB (www.geocities.com/paintchaska (http://www.geocities.com/paintchaska) if you're interested), someone made a crack about my weight... it hurt, but I suppose you need to ignore the people who want to beat you down. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who made positive comments on this post... I would like to lose a few pounds, but I don't want to starve myself to do it. I'm working on it the HEALTHY way... and in the meantime, I'll be enjoying riding as much as anyone who may be *gasp* thinner than I am. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Banks]

Thank you Portia!
To go along with this post I would just like to say how greatful i am for having, and being able to participate(sp?) in this sport. Riding has not only taught me responsibilty, but also sportsmanship, the love of outdoors and person skills, and it has taught me a lot about myself. i am 15, and some of the girls at school are SOO weight concious(sp?) that its really sad, but it doesnt stop at school. FOr me riding is my world, i dont like to go to the mall, and just shop, I would rather be buying my horse a cooler, or spending it on a horse show. I love to go to the barn because it is an escape from all the peer pressures from school, like how you look, what your wearing, you are constantely judged, and its not like riding where you are judged on your talent! I know that no matter where you go you will always be looked at physically, thats natural, but, for me at the barn, we are focused on horses, not what guy is looking at us.....
From riding I have learned dedication, and going out isnt that important, I mean I like to look nice and all, but the material things, like weight aren't very important, although I have to say that i havent had a problem with it.
- About the outdoors, I jsut have to say this...:
Last summer when we had that beautiful day(one of the many) when the wind was blowing but the sun was out so it was perfect day,,, my friend called and I said wasnt it a GREAT day, and she said "i wouldnt know" i was at the mall....
thanks..sorry to ramble on about myself! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[heelsdown]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RZ:
Heels -- I looked at your photos, and saw the one you took after Nona went off course. I was there too - let me tell you I was SO upset for Rythmical! One of my favorite horses of all time. They definitely would have won the class, I don't know what she was thinking, going around the combination that way. I saw her in tears afterward, I felt really bad for her.

One thing's for sure, it sure proves that "it happens to everyone." lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh RZ didn't is just break your heart! It broke mine, I really like the way Nona rides and Rythmical is a favorite of mine too. From where I was seated I couldn't really see exactly where she went off course, and I was shocked when it happened. It was such a big class, 71 horses, only those five went clear and then to go off course... I would have wept if I were her too. I've often wondered how the riders memorize those courses so well for the jump offs, especially if you happen to be last in the first round and the first in the jump-off. Yikes!

[RZ]

Yes, my heart broke for sure! (I was the one with my head in my hands in disbelief)... I think maybe you and I were sitting near eachother -- I had a slightly cut off view of that combination as well -- if you're looking out at the field, I was to the right of the bridge, on the grass in the corner area.

[Beans]

The important thing for all of us to remember is that MOSTWOMEN are not skinny or obese...we are built the way we are for reasons.

I was active in sports from a child and am actually sick to see what's going on with pressure on young girls and women who are active in all sports right now. I'm 49 and am pretty much the same shape I've been since my late teens. A little heavier and yes gravity takes it toll (on men too!). But I have to turn away when one famous young Grand Prix jumper rider enters the ring. So grossly anorexic many of us wonder how long this young woman can continue to live. It is highly possible that she can suffer cardiac arrest at any time...even on course. What then??? Will GM and the rest to advocate thinness be asking themselves...how did this happen?? I'll tell you how it happens. Making any young person feel their worth relates TOTALLY to their size and shape.

MOSTWOMEN have hips, and more fat than men - fighting that is fighting thousands of years of evolution. As far as our ability to be competitive in sports well we've moved past that challenge. Our progress in just about EVERY sport is on a much faster track than our male counterparts. O.K. in some sports we still haven't achieved equal speed, etc. but we are catching up.

As far as equestrians - size/shape - well it's just like horses people. There are horses in history who wouldn't pass ANYONE'S conformation evaluation but those horses went on to be world class athletes and win millions on the track. Having the right body type helps, but it also comes down to mental ability, talent and heart. We often talk about that "look of eagles" in some of our horses and we just know nothing will stop them from succeeding - they want it!

It's the 21st century - lets take the pressure of the female side of the equation - if men want skinny, no boobed, no hips females ....well that sounds like an appropriate build for a young boy!!! Take a look at the most successful long term relationships and those men have women in their lives that look like MOSTWOMEN...US!

[Saltadora]

I happen to be one of those skinney Minnies, but I can't help it...I guess if I didn't ride three to five horses everyday, that might help he he he...I don't see mant girls with eating disorders, goto any show and watch them eat frech fries and polish dogs and laugh it off instead of doing sit-ups. any ways, I don't think judges are inconsiderate about wieght as they used to be...
what really drives me crazy is when a 5'3'' girl won't buy a 16h horse because it's to small. hello, but top professionals win on small horses all the time, size does not matter!!! Yes for the equitation, the whole picture is somewhat important, but for the hunters and especially jumpers, small horses are usually better than the big ones.

[Nylar]

I'm yet another junior (well, before this year) rider who struggles with the weight issue. I'm the first to admit to the fact that I tried to pull the anorexia route, but thanks to my parents and friends, it was caught long before I could do any damage. Even on the local level, which is what I mainly have done, judges discriminate against those of us who don't look like "Barbie" as my trainer calls the girls who win. I did figure skating for a while as well, and frankly the similarities are obscene. Girls think they have to be rail-thin in order to accomplish anything, and a lot of people are reinforcing this idea without even thinking about how it's affecting the people to whom they're speaking. I'm glad to see so many junior riders on here speaking up that they do well without looking that way, and that there are many riders out there with more self-confidence than I had.

[Snowbird]

When I was young I was one of those who could eat like a trucker and stay "skinny". Now we'll just say that's not true. Yet, I eat much less and can put on weight. I am most sympathetic.

I hope that under the influence of the new rule for judging standards it will begin a dialog that changes the perspective.

I do not see any reason why a winning rider has to look like Miss America on a horse. I think that if the judging were more objective so that skill mattered more than looks it would solve a lot of problems.

Look at the thread on equitation. It is the look of a rider that is being rewarded instead of the skill and knowledge of a rider. What does that accomplish? I think it will end the sport. Eventually, these pretty riders will discover the truth. They have been passengers and not horsemen. Then we not only lose them but their children.

Isn't it true that the drip splash school of painting has cost us the arts. When students do not learn the classical skills but are rewarded as if they had; we defeat the purpose. Horses are an ART and not just a series of automated physical responses.

[Banks]

RIGHT ON SNOWBIRD!!!!!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif
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[This message has been edited by Banks (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Scoutie]

Eating disorders are so prevalent. If you know of someone with an eating disorder, the problem needs to be addressed right away. this is not an easy thing to do. Or is it easy to know what to do. One of the web sites I posted earlier:
www.diettalk.com (http://www.diettalk.com)

Has a huge part of the site devoted to eating disorders, advice, and help. I'm posting this again just in case someone needs the resource for themselves or a friend.

[J. Turner]

I'm pregnant now, so I'm not allowed to worry about my weight ... as long as I don't gain an enormous amount of weight. I have neither been anorexic, nor bulimic, but I still think I have a minor eating disorder. Basically, I obsess about food. I'm a yo-yo dieter. Sometimes I obsess and lose weight -- the low-carb type works best for me, then other times I can't focus and all the worrying about food only makes me think about it more, then I compulsively eat -- oops gotta have those cookies in the lunch line (I'm a public school teacher) even though I promised myself not to eat sugar today. Ug -- I can't stand it.

I promised myself not to worry about it while I'm pregnant ... but I don't want to be a fatty-fatty bobalatty after the baby comes. Am I good about exercising, no, I'll admit that. When I'm riding though, it keeps me busy, happy, and not worrying about food so much. I can't afford to ride anymore -- so my nervous habits point towards food instead of being burnt off at the barn. I have depression and take medication for it, which sometimes helps me lose weight and not obsess so much on food.

I'm about 5'4", very large boned, so that even 140 looks normal on me ... If I could stay that weight I'd be happy but instead I'm up and down and can't seem to stay in one place. I got down to 121 a couple years ago ... my mom said I looked yellow and gross. I think 130 would be a nice skinny, but again, I'd be happy if I could just stay around 140, not over 145.

This whole weight thing is very depressing. I cannot eat three normal meals a day and not gain weight, so it's always a stress to fall under the average calorie intake.

My poor Vogels have been taken in and let out so many times! I got stuck in them one humid day at Devon ... took 45 minutes to get out and they nearly cut off my blood circulation.

Help, anyone?!

[Flash44]

Congrats, J Turner.

I bought the book "Low Fat Living" by Robert and Leslie Cooper from Rodale.com. It has a lot of really good pointers on easy way to keep your weight in line without starving yourself.

[Duffy]

You're not alone J Turner. When I'm stressed or depressed, my eating can go one way or the other. Sometimes I don't eat (except for junk, of course) and most of the time I eat compulsively if either of those conditions exist. And in today's world, it's hard not to be stressed. I had a mamogram yesterday (1st on in 9 yrs - bad girl) and I wasn't too worried about it, since I didn't figure I'd have the results til my gyn appt next week. Surprise! These days, they have a dr/radiologist right there! They had to re-take one view and boy, when I was waiting around after that, I started thinking the worst, which was really stupid! On the way home afterwards, I started trying to think of all the good things going on in my life right now, as opposed to thinking about the bad things and worrying about what awful things Might happen in the future. Boy, amI rambling here, and I apologize. But I've found, at least with me, that if I'm content, I can get a better handle on my eating habits. And periodically, I have to convince myself that I do have those good things in my life. I too roller coaster w/ my weight and have several sizes of clothing in my closet which I don't feel I can give away. Then add quitting smoking a couple of years ago into the equation. . .(BYW, my boots have been "altered" several times as well! Don't feel bad! We can't afford to have more than one pair of those!) Good Luck and please don't think you're alone!!!!

[Scoutie]

Hi J. Turner!

You are definately not in the minority! The majority of people struggle with this sort of thing! I second Flash44's book recommendation. It is an intellegent, sensible and helpful book. Also, there's a book called "Diets Don't Work". I have to get the author's name for you.

For depression, I highly reccomend David D. Burn's book, "Feeling Good, the New Mood Therapy" also his "Feeling Good Workbook". He has also written "10 Days to Self-Esteem", which certanly deals with the general body image problem. Burns is a cognitive therapist who used to teach at University of PA, and now is at Stamford Univ.

Didn't "Practical Horseman" just recently have an article on some top riders who've had babies recently? What I remember most was the fact that several of the women took up walking on a treadmill for an hour a day and it helped them keep their weight down and maintain their fitness level. This really worked for them. Walking is my salvation! It helps me maintain a decent weight, it requires no special equiptment, (unless you want a treadmill). It's a great energizer and mood elevator. If you aren't walking now, why not give it a try? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[J. Turner]

I walk a little bit, but certainly not for an hour a day! I have a greyhound, Teddy, who needs to be walked, but we could spend more time for both my and his benefit. I'm just so tired when I get home from teaching all day ... I generally nap for two hours. Then I walk Teddy, then I work (or play on the computer) correcting papers or making quizzes, etc. Then I go to bed. Teaching is not a 9-5 job, that's for sure. I need a neighbor who bangs on my door to drag me out!

I too don't worry about food when I'm content. When am I most content? When I'm riding regularly (more than a lesson a week) ... Unfortunately, in metro Boston, keeping a horse is beyond a middle class budget. $625 for an indoor. Once I have the baby, I've got to find a way, but I have feeling it's not going to happen in this part of the country. I've thought about getting certified to teach handicapped riding and going that route, which might lead to some riding opportunities, maybe a cheap stall, plus you can keep your amateur status!

The food that's hardest to turn down, is stuff at school -- cookies at faculty meetings, leftovers from class parties, lunch line goodies, bite-size candy during the middle of the day to hold over til lunch to get rid of that headache. At home, I'm really not too bad. I eat fairly healthy. Sometimes big portions, but no junk food, except maybe some ice cream every couple weeks. Since I've started buying bottled water, it's much easier to drink that than snacking though.

I buy bottled water, 16 oz size, to drink at school, but now with being pregnant, I have to run to the lav in between almost every class! "You're late Mrs. Turner!" When I'm on my depression medication, it helps with my cravings and spontaneous eating. I had insurance on and off for a while and the stuff costs $3/day, so it wasn't very consistent. Maybe now that it's regular, it'll be better. Anyone here have to deal with serious depression? Horses have helped through that so much.

[Wicky]

Dear J. -
Your story could be mine, except for the pregnancy part. It's always a struggle to keep the weight off. High protein no carbs seems to be the best, especially because the lower the carbs, the less I seem to want them. However, for me, that means NO carbs.

I am sure it will be tough figuring out how to ride - the cost AND the baby! I know how tough Boston is. How about 1/2 leasing?

J, Like Scoutie I've also found Dr. Burns' books helpful. I really recommend them.

Unfortunately, the antidepressants seem to trigger weight increases. So, you have to be on guard - you're lucky that they have helped you feel so much better that you've been able to eat less.

Pregnancy and delivery involves lots of hormonal changes, so let your OB know that you are concerned about depression. These changes can throw you for a loop; unless you are aware that this can be a contributing factor you might find yourself blaming yourself.

Good luck - keep us posted!

[Portia]

Hi J -- no, you're by far not the only one to deal with depression and all its side effects. I have hereditary chronic clinical depression, most of the time slight but a few years ago it became acute. Thank God for Prozac -- it was something I could DO for what felt like being completely out of control for no good reason. I'm not ashamed to admit I still take it. People don't understand that the new depression drugs (seritonin re-uptake inhibitors, or SRIs) do not act like Valium or like "happy pills" or something that has a clear effect on perception or judgment, they simply help to restore the normal chemical balance in the brain and make you feel normal. I don't feel any noticiable effect from Prozac -- I just feel normal. I get happy from the regular things that make me happy, I get sad from the regular things that make me sad, but I don't cry uncontrollably over nothing anymore. So once you have your baby, if you start feeling depressed, don't let anyone make you feel bad about doing something about it.

As for weight, I lost a lot of weight when I was acutely depressed, because I was too depressed to eat. As a friend of mine says, it was "the Major Life Crisis Diet." I gained that all back after I felt better, and the drug doesn't seem to have any effect on my weight one way or the other. However, the SRIs can help get rid of the obsessive thinking that can accompany depression, which can help you lose weight.

Don't worry, you're not alone.

[Scoutie]

Hi J Turner! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I finally found the author for that other book I mentioned earlier. It's "Diets Don't Work" By Dr. Bob Schwartz, Ph.D, Breakthrough Publishing, 1996. (Phone 713-522-7660 if you can't get it in your local store.)
I think it's really great you are already walking and you have a dog as a companion and reason to walk! Also, if you live in Cambridge, you have some great places to walk! If you get inspired to increase your walks by even 10 or 15 minutes, you might find it increases your energy level and helps keep the weight down. Most days, I feel too tired to walk, or exercise, but when I "just do it", I always feel much better! I've realized that being sedentary can make you tired, which can make you more sedentary. Also, on the diet thing: Obviously, you know if you are pregnant, you need to be really careful what you eat. Even for people who are not pregnant, I think the no carb, super high protien diets are really dangerous!! Especially the ones that are also high fat. They are hard on your kidneys, etc. The weight loss never lasts. Most legitimate nutrition or health professionals will agree on this. On the other hand, if you are eating a lot of SUGAR, it can actually contribute to depression. RIGHT after you eat it, your blood sugar goes up, and you feel pretty good. Then the insulin kicks in and your blood sugar drops. Then you crave more sugar. It's a viscious cycle.
I've struggled with depression, too. I've never taken drugs. David Burn's method of cognitive therapy really helped me. I even tracked him down in Calif and phoned him and asked him to reccommend a good local cognitive therapist. Which he did. And it made a huge difference. But the books are in paperback and not expensive. Now I have some useful "tools" to help myself (I don't see a therapist any more) if I start to get down. But if you are severely depressed, a good therapist, who relies on therapy more than just medication, is very important.

If I'm depressed, I'm prone to eating more. But I also know, if I eat a lot of candy, cookies, etc. I can get more depressed. If I cut all sugar out for 4 or 5 days, I feel really great! At the end of the week, I have lost the cravings. It's not easy, but it's worth a try! If you take a non-sugary snack to school with you (and it doesn't have to be carrots or celery!) such as an apple, or whole grain crackers, the calories might be the same, but the effect will be better. Hang in there! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-20-2000).]

[Wicky]

I did forget something - I don't know if enough information is available on high protein diets for pregnant women. So, for now, I would not recommend it to JB.

However, I do have to say that as a physician, I have read a lot including some of the original work on high protein diets done in clinical research centers. These papers have been well referenced in Atkin's latest books.

The results are striking. For things that we can measure - cholesterol, triglycerides, weight, insulin resistance - the high protein/low carbohydrate diet is extrememly healthy. My LDL went down, my HDL went WAY up (from 45 to 95 - that's the good kind) and my triglycerides are almost unmeasurable at 33.

Of course, those who follow Atkins do a lot of supplementation with vitamins and other stuff.

The jury is probably out on other potential effects - as you may know, some think that high fat is related to increased risk of cancer. I don't know of any work yet on cancer and the high protein diets. Hopefully, Atkins will gather his experience together - but he will need a comparable group of people who are on a high carb low fat diet for years, in order to do the proper statistical analyses.

I do agree that high protein is not for people with certain medical problems, including some kidney disease.

[Janet]

I think it is interesting that a thread about "body image" and the lack of relevance of "being thin" to "being a good rider" has tunrned into a thread about-

DIETS!!

[Louise]

Janet, it is interesting isn't it. However, I think that the turn in this particular thread is because of a concern that excess weight has on health, not body-image.

I'm also one of those who struggles with weight problems and right now I'm not succeeding very well. I was a heavy kid, lost all the weight when I hit my early twenties and kept it off until probably the last 5 years. At that time, I had some depression problems, didn't seek help, and started gaining weight. During the last year and a half, what with not being able to ride and problems with my Mom's health, I have really packed the weight on.(5'7",afraid to get on the scale, but a good solid size 18) I went on an anti-depressant about 6 months ago and have finally stabilized enough to start to think about what this excess weight is going to eventually do to my health. Fortunately, right now, I'm very healthy, with low blood pressure, low cholesterol, no heart problems, etc. However, I am smart enough to realize that that may not last.

I eventually want to start riding again also. At my current weight, I'm not going to be very effective, besides what I would be doing to my poor horse's back. The diet started about a week ago. Nothing extreme, just cutting back, I fell off this weekend though, but got back on.(the diet, not a horse). I'm very glad to see all these suggestions for reading material, which I'm going to pick up right away.

The big difference I noticed, however, was that when I was a heavy kid, I obsessed about my weight and looks all the time. Now, as an adult, though I won't deny that every once in a while I look in the mirror and go Yikes!, I've learned enough to know that the people that I value, will value me because of who I am, not what I look like. Thats something I wish everyone could learn much earlier in life than I did.

[Ben and Me]

We want fat horses (or at least well rounded) and skinny riders. Umm okay...

Judges can penalize horses that have their ribs sticking out and yet they reward the girls who do not follow a healthy diet. And the truth is that the well-built horses are stronger and able to jump better than the skinnier ones. Don't you think the same goes for our riders?

I'm 5'6 (or so) and weigh 115 but not very muscular (at least in my arms but I think this has a lot to do with soccer).
Last week I was riding a VERY strong horse and came off with my arms feeling as though they were about to fall off! I bet that the more muscled riders don't go through that! And they're able to walk the next day! (I had a hard lesson!)

And anyways, dont they always say that muscle weighs more than fat?

[Flash44]

Muscle is more dense than fat. A pound of muscle takes up less space than a pound of fat. So when you begin an exercise program, you are supposed to measure your bust, waist, hips and thighs, and see if you can get a body fat % done somewhere. You want to remeasure about 8 weeks later to see the change.

I noticed when I began running, I lost 5 pounds pretty quickly, then gained 3 back. However, my clothes remained as loose as when I just lost 5 pounds. And my tummy was not as jiggly. Nor were my thighs.

I've found that the easiest way to stick toa diet and exercise program is NOT to plan it out in the long run. I go to bed each evening and think about my schedule for the following day. I try to plan out where I can fit in anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes of exercise, whether it be running or just doing sit ups and push ups in my bedroom. I am much more likely to meet this goal than if I were to say, I'm going to run 4 miles 4 times this week. I get that happy feeling from meeting my little daily goal, and avoid the guilt trip eat junk food feeling I used to get when I set a goal that was too unrealistic.

[Scoutie]

Wicky, I don't have the references right in front of me, but there are a ton of articles by nutritionists and dieticians who think that Dr. Atkins is a quack. And I agree! It's Dr. Atkins own research that backs up his own diet! The guy is making a lot of money from this! I certainly don't know of one single person who has ever gone on one of these ultra high protien, low carbohydrate diets and had the weight STAY off! I will be happy to provides some quotes from some health professionals on how dangerous the Atkin's diet is at a later date.
Janet, Yeah, the subject has turned to dieting, but body image and weight go hand in hand! Most people think they have to "diet" to lose weight.
Then there are sensible people like Louise and Flash44, who talk about making some minor changes or adjustments, not planning some rigid regime, and taking it one day at a time.
Because diets don't work! Stringent low calorie diets (under 1200 calories) or diets that are unbalanced like Atkins, result in an initial water loss, then your body's metabolism is lowered to adjust to the low calorie amount. Then when you go off the diet, your metabolism is so low, that you actually gain back more weight back! Classic yo-yo dieting.
All major research shows that people who have lost weight and kept it off consistanly for ten years or more, did not diet per se. They committed to a healty life style that included reasonable adjustments and changes in diet and exercise that they could continue with for the rest of their life. This means cutting down on certain high calorie foods or changing eating habits to substitute something baked for something fried, or a salad for a plate of french fries, etc. This kind of adjustment results in lowering caloric intake by 200 or 300 calories per day. It takes 3500 calories to equal a pound. So you're not going to lose some dramatic amount of weight in a short period of time, but you are going to establish some good habits which will mean losing one or two pounds per week.
I used to yo-yo diet like everyone else! Then I realized that I had to come up with something that wasn't a "diet" but a lifestyle. Something I could follow the rest of my life. I lost 20 lbs. It was important to do so for health reasons. It took six months. I've stayed within 5 lbs. of a goal weight ever since.
Dieting makes you and me be obsessed with food, appearance, and lbs. Focusing on being healthy, exercising to feel better, and eating to nourish your body really works. I've read every book that was ever written on nutrition, and diets. Not just to loose weight (yeah, that too!), but because I'm genetically predisposed to diabetes and heart disease on both sides of my family. All I know is that my brother, who follows an Atkins type diet is a diabetic, has kidney problems, high cholesteral and tryglycerides, and who has already had his first stroke at age 52!! My dad, also a diabetic, had 4 strokes before he died. After his first stroke, he went on the Pritikin diet and it cut his insulin intake in half. It also gave him an extra ten years to live. It made an impression on me. Consequently, I am a low fat vegetarian, who eats whole grains, etc. I am not a diabetic. I never get sick (maybe a cold once every ten years). My cholesteral is 125! My doctor tells me I have the best blood test results he has ever seen.
The bottom line is, body image is tied in with your ability to love yourself enough to take good care of yourself. This is more important than any weight issue. But what happens is that people who are health conscious also quite often maintain a reasonable healthy weight.
I hope that someone will read this and take better care of themselves. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Here's a link to an interesting success story that some of you might find inspirational as well:
http://www.cyberdiet.com/success/beth/report4.php3

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Wicky]

Scoutie -

The problem with this topic is eloquently stated by you - "there are a ton of articles by nutritionists and dieticians who think that Dr. Atkins is a quack." The operative word is "think." The published, randomized, controlled studies and other studies going back to the 1930s demonstrate the benefits of the true low carb diet.

You state "It's Dr. Atkins own research that backs up his own diet!" While true that his own research backs up his own diet, so does research of others.

We all make money from doing work, and work that we believe in. Let's not slam someone who does believe in what he says, simply because he can make a living at it.

The problem with case reports, as with your brother, is that you have to be very careful to know what you are comparing with. Do you know that he is really following a very low carb diet, or is it, as you said, "an Atkins type diet?" Do you know what his problems would be like if he were on another type of diet?

Wasn't it Jim Fixx (or was it another famous runner) who lived a very healthy (as you would classify it) low fat diet, ran marathons, and dropped dead of a heart attack in his 50s. He had a family history of high cholesterol very early heart attacks (brother died in his 40s) so everyone said that his genetic background couldn't be overcome by his healthy life style.

How can one loose weight on Atkins? Simply because one is peeing out ketones. Ketones are fuel. Fuel is calories. So, you are wasting more calories on the Atkins diet than any other diet. And no, this is not the same as diabetic ketoacidosis. On the Atkins diet, you are not acidotic. In diabetic ketoacidosis, you are. It is the acidosis that is the problem, not the ketones.

I don't want to argue each point with you. Let's agree to disagree on this one, Scoutie. I am sure that at some time in the future, things will be clearer. In the mean time, we all have to do what makes the most sense to each one of us. People who are really interested in the topic can read the original works for themselves - Atkins, Ornish, Pritikin, and the scientific papers that they quote.

As someone said, this is a board for horse stuff, not dieting! NM from me on this topic!

[Scoutie]

Wicky,
First of all:
I'm not going to waste time with you arguing about Dr. Atkins. My opinion is shared by the majority of nutritionalists and other health professionals. If you love his diet, that's your decision. Good luck! I have read a lot of warnings that it is dangerous. I have never read that balanced and sensible diets, that include fruits, vegetables, complex carbohydrates, and reasonable quantities of lean protien sources such as fish, poultry, or legumes are dangerous.

My brother has always been on a high fat, high protien, high meat diet. No, it probably has not always been the exact Atkins diet. But he has gone on the Atkin's diet more than once to lose weight. Years ago my brothers blood tests showed he was heading down the road to heart problems and diabetes. The doctors warned him to change his diet. He didn't. He paid the consequences.

Ketosis is hard on your kidneys. Regardless of what kind of ketosis it is. Ask your doctor.

Maybe I'll have a stroke when I'm in my early fifties too, but I'm certainly going to do my best to follow a balanced diet to improve the odds that I don't.

My mother who is 76, just took up weight lifting a few years ago, which is pretty cool. She is careful about her diet and exercise. Much more so than many of her friends, who are consequently not in as good of shape as she is, or as "young" as she is. She's ended up having to make much younger friends, because she likes to walk, and to play tennis (she can't ride because of a fused spine from an old accident). I hope she beats the genetic odds, too. Regardless, she is a terrific inspiration to a lot of younger people, including, me. And her quality of life, is far, far better, right now.

There are also numerous other case studies that show that people who have changed to a balanced diet that is lower in fat and higher in complex carbohydrates have lower cholesteral, lower insulin intake, and fewer bybass surgeries. The majority of doctors and nutritionalists in America agree on this.

The topic of this thread is Body image and riding. Unfortunately most people want a quick fix for their body image, which means a quick fix sort of diet. Which may work for the short term, but doesn't for the long term. A lot of people who have contributed posts on this thread have talked about being depressed, and having concerns about maintaining a healthy weight. Others have talked about anerexia. You can't separate body image from the weight loss/weight gain issue, or from issues of self esteem. That leads to the need to educate both the young and old alike reagarding diet as it relates to nutrition, as well as exercise, as it relates to health and well being. Riding is an athletic sport, and therefore is related to all of the above dicussions in this thread. I have no interest in arguing about one diet over another. I just hope that people reading these posts will try to take good care of themselves and not do anything "quick fix" or dangerous. I really, really, hate to see people suffer!! I'd really just like to see fewer people struggle and more people be happy and healthy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Quinn]

First and foremost let me say, I am a fan of George Morris' quest for the "perfect hunter" style. But, one of Mr. Morris' biggest beefs is the less than svelte equestrian. Quite frankly, that's a load of hooey. I cannot count the number of times, I have seen where he comments on a rider's physique. Something along the line of "now if this rider could slim down a little." Such an easy task huh???

Personally, this has always turned me off a trifle with him. It is just another example of how kids get the wrong impression of how they should look. Very unhealthy physically and emotionally as far as I am concerned.

[pwynnnorman]

I wish I could say "I work my buns off" taking care of 10 horses 24/7, riding three to four young creatures at least four days out of seven, AND taking care of someone else's 15-horse barn four days a week (and teaching straight through 11:00-4:00 two days a week with two additional, lighter days)...

Oh, how I WISH I could say that about my buns!

But nothing I do changes my somewhere-between-blocky-and-butterball basic build. It is frustrating and then some.

But I really don't think I ride all that bad--my horses progress fine (fast, even--with never any back or soundness problems). So I really wonder a bit about just what conformation is "best" for riding.

For example, I'm glad I can throw my weight around a bit when introducing a hunter flying change. When you want to intentionally unbalance a horse, it's a bit easier when you can use your weight as a weapon!

And, too, until he fell from grace, I must admit I always admired Barney Ward (and I still admire that little german guy whose name I can't remember): short, squat, stumpy but strong!

BUT I will admit that maybe because of my shorter legs, I am more comfortable on a narrower and/or smaller horse. I think maybe that's the most important aspect of one's conformation: finding the horse whose build compliments your own.

A lot of you folks sound like you should try one of my long-fronted, heavy boned, substantial-bodied, 1/2 and 3/4 TB sportponies. I breed them specifically because of some of the points addressed in this thread. You don't necessarily need size if you are a bit bulkier rider: you need stride, scope, suppleness and strength. Getting all of that in a smaller package may be physically (AND mentally) a lot more comfortable for you! I've had a lot of students (riding students) in the past who didn't fit the typical rider mold and were often poorly mounted as a result. They (and my own traits) were the very reason why I decided to breed what I do.

There, I did it. I plugged my business!

[Snowbird]

Dear JTurner,
First throw away the scale! They lie all the time. It's the same principle as watching a pot boil, it never does when you're watching.

When I was in college I learned something most interesting, they had set up a cafeteria for infants. They could eat whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. Lo and behold these babies were able to correct their own deficiencies by choosing what tasted good to them. I also learned something else, that statistics can say anything you want then to say.

The Rye Bread manufacturers say that two slices of rye bread a day will stop some kind of cancer, don't remember which one. A few years ago they said that red wine was poisonous so every one started drinking white wine. Well, now they say that 2 glasses of red wine are good for you. Peanut oil has good cholesterol that gets rid of bad cholesterol and on and on. Oh! yes they discovered that it is fat that makes your brain work, you need it to transmit all those little messages. So low-fat diets are go for heart and bad for your brain. OH! yes and what the one where they said that mashed potatoes were brain food. If you smoke you won't get Altzheimer or Parkinsons (maybe because you won't live long enough but it's also good for those of us who are paranoid schizophrenics. They will want instead that we take nicotine pills.

The conclusion..there is none, LIVE LOVE and do what feels good. In fact 30 years ago what was then a size 10 is today a size 2. We didn't change they changed the sizes. I know because I was 5'7" and 98 pounds with a 21 inch waist, I was a size 10. Marilyn Monroe was a 14, they lied when they said she was a size 2, in our day a size 2 didn't even exist. She wasn't voluptuous because she was a twiggy. Let me ask you if you are a size 2 and you lose more weight what size are you? a 0, meaning you are a nothing.

In Spain they have passed a law that says no model may be smaller than a size 6. Now, that's a law I could vote for.

You've all bought into the complicated marketing of "image". It's just plain silly because you are and should weigh what ever weight at which you feel healthy and vigorous. There are Size 16 women that are magnificent, and there are size 2 women that look like a hanger. If they weighed a little more maybe they wouldn't plastic boobs.

I don't know about you, but I know that all the people I love look just great with whatever build their bones and genetics gave them. The world was made for variety, how boring if we all looked the same, were built the same. Can you imagine if every female was a size 2 with platinum blond hair and the same build, how would our husbands know which one was us!

[Janet]

OK, I'll bite.

What is the other 1/2 to 1/4?

[This message has been edited by Janet (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Becca]

I’ve stayed out of this for quite a while, just watched, but now I decided to dive in. EVERYONE here knows me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But go check out my pictures on da’ web page ( www.geocities.com/r_payson) (http://www.geocities.com/r_payson)) Really /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I’m not the thin, idealistic goddess you would naturally expect! <G> I am very short, and still have my baby fat ( At 16? You’d think I could call it something else by now.*G*) I am also probably the most self-confident 16 year old you’ll ever meet. I don’t know how I got this way, something struck me when I was about 5, and I have never doubted myself since. So I’ll be damned if peer pressure, or what the judge wants me to look like will ever effect me.

Now, certainly, welcome to the real world- I’m 16, in high school, where how you look is what its all about. Would I MIND losing a bit of weight? Of course not. But the fact is, I will always have a bit of a bulky body, I’ll always have stumpy legs, and chubby cheeks. Certainly, I could do more exercise, and eat better, but sometimes there aren’t enough hours in a day. And I just could not possibly be aneorexic, I LOVE eating far too much to stop. And puking makes me sick, just wouldn’t work. And I love life a bit too much. So my approach? I try to be smart about what I eat, and I do as much physical work as I can.

I take care of 7 horses daily, feeding, riding, grooming, and cleaning stalls- that’s a bit of work right there. I also make valiant attempts to use all the stinking workout equipment which is literally a flight of stairs away, but running on a treadmill is only entertaining for 13 ½ seconds. My legs are all muscle, I can arm-wrestle(And beat!) 90 % of the guys in my school, but around the belly, and my cheeks have excess /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe someday my 5’ will spurt to 5’9, and It’ll all just stretch out..but I doubt it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So, the fact is, I don’t feel I have ever been prejudiced for my weight, or size in any class, and haven’t had a peer make a comment since about 7th grade ( gotta LOVE middle school!), and will I continue to watch what I eat, and get the exercise I can? Of course. Will I obsess, make myself sick, or kill myself trying? Never.

However, riding is an athletic sport. My mom was about a pencil when she was in college, up until after she had Heather, her 3rd kid, and my younger sister. After 2 more children, the weight didn’t drop as easily after each kid. And she was one of the most talented riders I have ever watched ride, but she stopped riding, and started coaching after she had Sam (Number 4 /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She is now my primary trainer, and I absolutely love it, she teaches me better than anyone else I have ever worked with, but even more, I wish she would start to ride again. For every performance I can get out of my greenies, I know she could do it 100 times better- and I’d love to be able to see it. I hope I never lose my fitness, or get to a weight where I no longer think its good, or fair for me to ride, because I know what I’d be missing. My mom loved, and still does, I’m sure, riding as much as I do. I can’t imagine ever giving that up. But I think more than shape or size, it’s the fitness that effects you in riding, and I think weight is losing a bit of its emphasis in the equitation ring- which makes ME happy!!

And this is a good thread Portia, Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As for Cody, I’ve seen you ride, and you are really, very talented. You certainly aren’t overweight, or fat, by any means- Maybe your even just (dare I say it?) normal? Anyway, should you read this, you have incredible talent, and from what everyone says, a personality to match. Congratulations.

And snowbird, on the size '0' comment, my little sister wears a zero, but has a tiny 'budha belly', and is always going on about hwo she needs to lose weight. I just say, then what will you wear? A negative 2? You'd be turned inside out.

Its crazy what our society has done.

[Snowbird]

Dear Wicky,
That's really funny because my Mom is a hungarian and since she can't do the difference between V and W I've been Wicky all my life.

I'm going to tell you something my Mom was a devotee of Atkins. I will not call him doctor because I don't think he is! She bought his whole line of bilge. Hook line and sinker she spent every dime she had on visits to Atkins and all his concoctions. If there was a possibility of success I would spend every moment of the life I have left to see him in prison. He is a heartless money grubby con-man and he ruined my mother's life. He doesn't care whether they can afford his vitamins, and he doesn't care if they overdose on his vitamins. He destroyed my mother with his treatments that burned out her brain cells. She was a healthy bright and wonderful person with such love and talent that it was unbelievable.

When we had to clean out her apartment after she went to the nursing home I found suitcases full of his "vitamins". She suffered from the crap he does with "washing" the blood. She was so hooked on his instant cures that she gave up food. He convinced her she was allergic to everything so she lived on water and protein.

Please Please! do not believe that quack! He should be forced to live on his diet in jail.

[Wicky]

Drat. Ok. Here goes.

I AM a doctor. I did my research of the literature - the stuff in the reputable medical journals (those that are peer reviewed) because I do NOT believe ANYTHING I read about diets in the so-called popular press. I was interested in Atkins' theories enough to do so.

What I read made scientific sense to me. Especially about the rather low daily amount of carbohydrates that some people need to stick to in order to succeed. That doesn't mean that anyone else has to agree with me. But, in order to convince me that my conclusions are not correct I would need to know more details about those who feel that they have been hurt, and I can't - and won't - review anyone's medical charts. It is clear that some people can't be on this diet - especially those with kidney problems (and people with diabetes get kidney problems related to their diabetes, as do people with high blood pressure).

I certainly agree with something that Snowbird said - that things go in and out of fashion, based on the latest "scientific" data. However, as I said, we can only decide which of the scientific data makes sense to us, as individuals, and agree to disagree. Look - my aunt recently died from being treated by a nutritionist who told her to stop all of her medications and take herbal substitutes. I don't say that all nutritionists are bad, but I do say that we all have to be careful about what we believe, and have some healthy scepticism and if it is important enough to us, try to go to the original data.

But, I do appreciate the concern that people are voicing and I will accept that it is genuine and said because they do sincerely disagree with me and don't want me - or others - to be hurt. Nevertheless, can't we agree to disagree on the virtues of this or that diet, and move on? The thread - body image and how we feel about ourselves, have come to terms with our "imperfections" and are moving on with our lives - is far more important than trying to get a consensus about which diet is best for everyone.

Peace?

[This message has been edited by wicky (edited 03-23-2000).]

[Snowbird]

Yes we can Wicky,
I do not doubt there may be a scientific basis at the bottom of the concept. I guess what I'm really upset with is the perifieral sales techniques that promise so much more and drain people desperate for a quick fix.

The Atkins magazines and literature (regardless of the value of the original research) is riddled with false promises of instant cures. If you want to lose weight you acn do it eating all you want quickly, need to clear your arteries, take this formula. If you have aches and pains from arthritis take another formula, if you have memory problems there's another formula. The senior citizens who have lots of things that need to be treated just plain over dose. So while I can agree with your professional opinion of the diet itself I am infuriated by the way that particular diet is used as a piece of sugar to deprive the older folks of their money and their health while promising a return to the vigor and health of younger times.

I apologize for anything that sounded critical of you, I just saw the red when I saw the name Atkins. I hate it when people become so sold on image that they grasp at straws and in turn demean their own looks and ability. I think that as a society we have become slaves of "image" and what we are doing to young people who happen to have a different body build is just awful. Whatever happened to the real America where there was room for all kinds of people?




[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 03-23-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

Janet, my "foundation" mare, who is a real "trip" when it comes to her hot, game temperament (AND ability to babysit, too, when asked), is an 11.3h registered Raffles line Half-Arabian with Happy Hour Supreme Shetland on the bottom--100% registered blood on both sides, no guessing. Everyone in my herd is her kid or grandkid or (soon) great grandkid.

She looks like a nicely bred, broad-as-a-coffee-table Welsh, but she's a kamakaze and a half: came out of the broodmare band one year because she didn't catch, and within two weeks was doing courses and gymnastic grids with auto changes and walk-to-canters under a tiny tot who hadn't even cantered before riding her. She's working on her 12th foal now, at age 20, and two of her daughters have produced numerous get to mature ages now (one I culled, a 1/2 Welsh mare who didn't have the kamakaze streak--I also culled all of that mare's get although they trained up and sold well in the hunter market; the other 1/2 TB daughter has mature kids herself and they are all as game as they come, with enormous strides). Every one of the old mares sons (she's only had three fillies, one is a yearling) are showing or have shown very well on the A circuit with big name trainers.

Don't get me going on this, though, cuz I'll never stop. Thanks for asking!

[Scoutie]

Snowbird has very wisely brought up the crux of the problem! Quick fixes don't work. They don't work in diet or exercise. they don't work in riding or training horses. they don't work in relationships. They just don't work!!! Wouldn't it be fabulous if we could just snap our fingers and do what really takes weeks, or months or years to accomplish? Well maybe not. Because another way to look at it is to do a mind adjustment to enjoy a project or a challenge as it takes time, as it helps us learn something, and as it builds a solid foundation for the future. Too many people focus on the goals, more than "the every day". Goals are great to have, but they are in the future. The everyday is our reality. "Instant", not only is not where it's at, it doesn't work or last in the long run.

[Lil]

I gained 25 lbs after marrying - I was a SKELETON!!!! My biggest fear was gaining an ounce. Know what? Looking back at my old photos, I'm disgusted that a) I let myself get so emaciated b)worried so much about something that is SO UNIMPORTANT!!!! I can't believe how much better I feel mentally and physically, and how much more energy I have. FOOD IS GOOD!! I only had to go a size up for riding clothes and my customs, with the addition of an elastic gusset, are more comfortable than ever. I'm a little more self conscious about the sitting trot, due to my newly-found "bustage"! (A definite upside to porking out!!) But hey - an 1824 bra and I'm sittin' with the best of 'em! I guess my point - and I do have one- that health is the important thing. *One thing I am disappointed in is GM's attitude. Isn't it hard to believe that someone who promotes riding for the diabled would be so hard on people with an extra pound or two? I say big deal - just get a horse who can do the job. ALso - pats on the back to the Chronicle for publishing that amusing photo of a A/A champion stealing the hat from a trophy presenter. His rider is NOT the ideal body type - and she's there with the tri-color! So - to hell with the scale! Just be healthy.

[LucianCephus]

I watch very little tv, and, tho I had heard all the buzz about the woman who plays Ally McBeal being anorexic, I was absolutely stunned when I inadvertently tuned in a recent episode. This woman (sorry, can't think of her name) looks like something recently emerged from a crypt. Could anyone possibly WANT to emulate her???

I'm "fortunate" to be relatively thin (due largely to clinical depression and the medication I take for it), but there are certainly days when I yearn for the muscle and bulk to be a more effective rider. I know my eating patterns are generally poor, tho I try to get the calories I need, but my stamina is practically nonexistent. I just don't know how an anorexic junior hopes to achieve the athleticism required to be an effective rider.

BTW, I find the sharing regarding depression on this string to be particularly interesting...exactly how many of us are using SRIs, do you think???? Someone needs to write a book on the role of the horse in therapy for adult women.

[Wicky]

Yes, LC, your observation is indeed very interesting! I think that finding fault in myself - whether it is physical appearance or not - is clearly related to inciting depression. Years of therapy have helped....

Over the last year though, there have been significant strains, including business, that made things bad. Unfortunately, these pressures made my hsuband resentful of the time and money I've spent on riding. That made me resentful of him, resistant to hearing him, but even worse, the relief I got out of riding vanished. Indeed, we went from doing really well at courses to missing distances to 2 foot jumps, and on a hot TB that leads to disaster. All confidence lost.

Then, my coming 2 year old filly had to be put down, and two months later, when I was going in for neck surgery (had a badly ruptured disk pressing on the spinal cord), my TB colicked, had surgery, and 10 days later, having never recovered intestinal function, had to be put down on the day I had my surgery.

I've bought another horse (he's coming 4) and don't tell husband - am thinking of buying his coming 3 sister too! Probably just a pipe dream. But, riding gives me an outlet that is so different from work, from family - it's just for ME. I think it puts me in touch with another part of myself, and helps me renew. Still, there are those issues with the husband to resolve....

I can only wish "Happy Trails" to all of us.

[Duffy]

I'm with both of you, LucianCephus and Wicky. Horses are indeed therapy for lots of us (and not just women). I truly think they're my sanity. Some people think we're insane to be the way we are. My husband didn't appreciate my PASSION for the horses. Unless you've got the bug, it's extremely difficult to understand, let alone tolerate, someone "into" horses. They're just not comfortable with it so they, in turn, resent it. Horses have been there, in some way, shape or fashion, through every crisis in my life. Thank goodness for them!!!

I guess this subject could be a new thread. . .I seem to remember one a while back on "why do you/or I ride" or something like that?

[Snowbird]

The fact is that we have been waltzing around the idea but there are people who have their own views and prejudices.

I grew up in the fashion business and I can tell you that there are people who resent a feminine body. They prefer us to look like little boys. They are designers who make baggy ugly clothes (remember the grunge look") to hid the curves we should have that make us attractive as females.

It is possible that that kind of thinking (sub-conscious it might be)has permeated this industry. Afterall let's be honest where are there more women and girls in one place.

[Bascule]

Snowbird: Your side of this issue has lent a great deal of support to a theory I have had for some time now. I am so glad you brought your experience to this issue. I thought I was just losing my mind or I was looking to place blame. I just wish I had recognized it sooner. As a 20-something girl, size was everything. Now I know size only means what store I'm shopping in (i.e. I can wear a 1 in this brand, but a 7 in this brand and a 3 in this brand). How sad and how very, very sick. Unfortunately, the girls and young women who could benefit from what we have to say are running around with blinders on. Brainwashing at it's finest.

[This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 04-10-2000).]

[N&B&T]

After a few weeks away, seeing this thread, the "Cross-Training" thread, and the two "Weight" threads was surprising! And in a good way...it seems the community is re-forming (absolutely no pun intended) itself.

In the process of catching up with these and other threads, please excuse my coming in late with a few peripheral comments...

Re rider photos: just for the record, Snowbird, doesn't the camera add 20 lbs? So that models must be underweight to appear extremely slender when photographed?

And it drives me crazy too when each manufacturer--and even lines within the same manufacturer's clothes--are different sizes.

Furthermore, I totally agree with you about the vanity factor in the current sizing of clothes...or, whatever the size is called, how about standardizing? Please! Guys buy stuff with waist and inseam and collar and sleeve measurements (jackets too) and that's it!! Think how many relationships could be saved/improved if we didn't have to explain why it takes us three times (at least) as long to buy one piece of clothing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trivia aside, all these related threads make it pretty clear that it's about self-esteem and fitness rather than image per se. Progress with the former two will usually result in an improved appearance, and/or, far more important, beauty in the way that Snowbird has defined it. Defining yourself or, worse, letting others define you, by externals--not just weight, of course, but that's what you're all discussing--is a perilous way to travel...enough philosophy--you are all very brave!

And Snowbird, how did you of all people cope with being a model? Hard to imagine! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Or was that the beginning?

[Banks]

I would just like to say thank you again to Portia for bringing up this subject!! I think that it is very important that subjects like these be an open topic. THe effects of eating disorders are so huge and devistating tht it is so crucial that we discuss these issues, i think. At school we had heath week, and the people who came to talk to us didnt even effect me like everyone else has here, that and we all couldnt tell our stories! Thank you to everyone who contributed!!!