Chain Nose Bands - Better than sliced bread! [Archive]

ErinB

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:28 PM

I don't know, Cactuskate, why are they pulling on the noseband? Personally I would never use a chain noseband on my horse, and I would never ever ever in a million years use a bicycle-chain bit (that should have been banned)! However, some green horses just don't accept control using ordinary tack, and once the horse learns to respect the chain noseband, you can switch back to a regular one. Simple. Besides, have you ever seen a chain noseband? They're not actual pieces of chain wrapped around the nose, they're just a thin inlay of chain inside a regular noseband. They're acceptable for extreme horses in my opinion and I am firmly against animal abuse. JMHO, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cactuskate:
And why do you think they are pulling on the noseband in the first place?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:30 PM

This particular animal pulls on the noseband simply to be annoying! He does it for entertainment, and to avoid contact. Example: Pull on reins for brakes - animal doesn't want to put on brakes so puts head in air and pulls on martingale. When have chain noseband, Brakes work great!

Heather

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:37 PM

Please tell me this is a joke? I can't believe the cavalier attitude towards "spike" and "chain" nosebands. These items cause PAIN as a training method. Excrutiating pain,no but pain and discomfort nontheless. Flame all you want but I'm sorry, I just don't get it. It's not matter of abusing or not abusing--whatever happened to learning how to ride. If the horse has a problem learn to work through it, or find a trainer who can. Don't just slap a piece of equipment on.

BTW--there are many Olympic level trainers who have told me that horses "run to pain" and that if you try to solve a running or pulling problem by something harsh that's painful or uncomfortable, you will in time just make the problem worse. When the tacked noseband stops working, then what will you do?

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:45 PM

No Pain, No Gain, Heather....ever heard that one before? Don't mean to flame you here, but horses wouldn't learn much if they were always asked politely to do things.

The spike nosebands help "teach" the animal what you want them to do. Once they figure it out....they are much, much happier...I'm sure!

poltroon

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>This particular animal pulls on the noseband simply to be annoying! He does it for entertainment, and to avoid contact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses do not evade 'simply to be annoying.'

If your 5 year old child was unable to do an algebra math problem, would you describe his behavior as 'deliberately trying to annoy you'?

and another poster wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>No Pain, No Gain, Heather....ever heard that one before? Don't mean to flame you here, but horses wouldn't learn much if they were always asked politely to do things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch. I hope your parents/teachers/supervisors have been more understanding with you. I personally find that when the cost of failure is pain and suffering that I tend to look for ways to avoid the activity in the first place.

It is possible to train horses (any animal/human) without the use of pain. Dolphins and dogs are routinely trained to do elaborate exercises (about the difficulty of a hunter course) on a single command. The chain noseband may work now, but if the horse is uncomfortable, eventually the hitting the chain noseband will not deter him.

My first thought is that the horse may have a pain issue somewhere - particularly in the mouth. Have you had a good equine dentist to see him?

[This message has been edited by poltroon (edited 08-30-2000).]

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 02:56 PM

I've never seen a chain noseband, but it sounds similar to a mechanical hackamore. Is that right?

Hephaistion

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:01 PM

I think you've touched on a touchy subject VA Trainer...

To CactusKate and others who disagree with Colin and VATr, what would you do when faced with a particularly difficult young horse who won't respect the rider, and may end up being a liability to someone? Sometimes a slightly stonger method is required - not abusive just stronger. While there are some people who do abuse their horses terribly - using a legal training device in practical and purposful manner is not grounds for abuse. Of course all gadgets can be over-used, but if it's used briefly and conscientiously to help teach a horse the correct way of going, how is that wrong?

I am not a fan of gadgets/devices/strong bits etc., and will always try everything else first (usually blaming myself /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), but sometimes you do need that stronger bit/noseband.

Xani

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:03 PM

It may seem abusive to use such drastic practices, but if the horse can be made competitive and successful as opposed to useless and a throw away, then I ahve to choose the lesser of two evils. I'm sorry but with the overbreeding of TB's and the thousands of horses that end up in slaughter houses, if unconventionality, without being torture or "true abuse", can prevent that then it should be done hands down. Horses are individuals and need to be trained and ridden as such.

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:04 PM

Oh precious Jair and Xani....I knew you would come to my rescue!!!! The dressage whips are FLYING on this thread, eh???

Heather

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:06 PM

Oh, I get it--pain teaches. Have to remember that when I'm breaking my two year old--when doesn't instantly display the competitive skills of an advanced three-day horse I'l just beat him till he does. Good plan.

I'm not saying don't be firm, or risk your own safety by putting up with obnoxious behavior, but I'm sorry, it IS possible to show horses what is expected of them without causing them pain. I'm sorry you don't believe that.

If the horse is that dangerous or difficult, then put him together with a rider who can handle him without gadgets. If not, learn to ride.

NorthEast

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:08 PM

If a tack noseband is the item in question, I hardly consider that cruel or unusual. I don't think they can make the horse bleed or be cut unless jerked on somehow are tightened to the point the horse cannot even breathe.

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:12 PM

My god....you people are nuts! The horse isn't in any pain with the noseband. He doesn't even complain or change his pace or anything. He simply doesn't pull on the martingale any more. That's it. Plain and simple.

Heather seems to think that it would be better for me to continue pulling on his face trying to make him slow down - with his head straight in the air. Or better yet, Heather would probably prefer my not forcing the horse to slow "if he doesn't want to", huh?

Talk about ridiculous...my lord! The chain noseband has made not only MY LIFE easier, but the HORSE'S LIFE easier as well. We're both MUCH HAPPIER now, thank you very much....

so...what is this about spikes and cranks?

ccoronios

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:13 PM

VA Trainer - what's the story on this horse (age/experience/etc)? Is it yours - are you under pressure to sell him/make him win? Why isn't proper training (step by step, slow and easy) an option?
I've ridden in a whole lot of pretty extreme bits - spades (western) and bicycle chains (saddle seat) and, while neither would be my bit of choice - and certainly not one I'd use on a horse unprepared for it - in good hands, with someone who is in control of his/her temper, they aren't necessarily abusive. I've also ridden a pony whose jaw had been broken by a plain snaffle.
However, I feel that less is best - and only one of my horses went in a martingale - and he'd been a whip's horse for several years.

LucianCephus

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:16 PM

"No Pain, No Gain, Heather....ever heard that one before? Don't mean to flame you here, but horses wouldn't learn much if they were always asked politely to do things."

I absolutely disagree. When my Seger horse moved to his current barn, he could only be ridden in a double twisted wire or gag...absolutely refused to stop or listen. The new trainers substituted a light snaffle and slowly/kindly taught him "whoa." He is now completely obedient when a downward transition is requested...something that continues to dismay me. The pain from the severe bits didn't stop his disobedience and, in fact, probably contributed to it. All the folks who think they're "fixing" and rehabbing a horse thru the use of aids designed to inflict pain are being far too easy on themselves. I firmly believe that, except in the case of psychotic horses (and I've owned one), bad behavior is largely caused by confusion. And, since nothing can impact the behavior of the psychotic ones, such short cuts as the chain nose band are simply obnoxious.

Xani

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:17 PM

You know I think Jumping solid fences and galloping with lard and sweat covering my horse for miles and "banking" off solid obstacles is really cruel!

Cactuskate

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:18 PM

Oh my what a can of worms. I too have ridden the scary hunter, we prayed the standing never broke or we would flip over backwards. So I apologize if I sounded holier-than-thou.

But I was able to get him from a small twisted wire snaffle or tom thumb to a fat hollow snaffle with about a year of quieting flat work. But I was not under the time, performance and economic constraints that some professionals are

In answer to what would one do to prevent an unsafe situation for horse and rider? I would go back to the basics.

I may have overreacted to the "chain" versus tacked noseband. I think I look nice in Asbestos.

NorthEast

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:20 PM

LC I agree I have had horses go from Corkscrews, Gags, and all sorts of things to rubber or happy mouths, but every case is individual and when we are talking about someone who cares about their horse and wants them to be happy and perform well. Then we must be careful not to criticize unfairly

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:21 PM

Basically you are using a gimmick in place of well-established, fundamental, long-term training practices. Horses that evade the bit by holding their head high have not been taught the proper relationship between hand and leg. You are using a shortcut to take the place of basic training that teaches a horse to give to the hands in response to the use of leg and seat (sorry, I'm oversimplifying here). Balance and flexibility also are part of the equation and it sounds to me as if your horse is not properly broke and needs a lot more training rather than placing something severe on his face so you can attain instant results. George Morris and the like would probably have a lot to say about your post!

Xani

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:24 PM

Well after George Morris' behavior over the schooling incident in which a steel pipe was used to cause the horse pain to pick up his legs and subsequently jump clean and win, as opposed to the fundamental work of gymnastics and other more "natural" sharpening skills, what would his opinion matter anyhow.

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:24 PM

Colin -- I may be wrong here but I don't think it's legal to show with anything metal, even stitched into the leather of a noseband, in the hunters. Does someone have quick access to a rule book?

VTrider

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xani:
You know I think Jumping solid fences and galloping with lard and sweat covering my horse for miles and "banking" off solid obstacles is really cruel!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree!

Ash

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:28 PM

I am with Colin and VA Trainer on this one. Some times certain horses need to be told things in a stronger way then others. I was always taught: ASK-TELL-MAKE. First you ASK your horse to do what you want, then you TELL your horse what you want and if that fails, you MAKE your horse do what you want. I have horses I have only had to ASK to do everything and I have had horses I have had to MAKE do everything.

It sound like VA Trainer has given her horse a chance to do what she has asked him to do and has unfortunately had to 'make' him do what she wants. The good thing about these nosebands is most horses get the idea fairly quickly and don't need them for long.

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:32 PM

Xani -- Oh, please. My post had to do more with properly breaking a horse so that it DOESN'T elevate than is was about whether the use of such equipment was justified. I don't want to get in an argument about the merits of whether or not George Morris was right or wrong concerning the accident in Florida. Jumping a horse over a metal pole cannot be equated with fundamental training methods. If the horse doesn't touch the pole, it suffers no pain, unlike a metal noseband that the horse can't get away from. The subject of George and the Flordia incident has been beaten to death on this board, and I believe that George was exonerated from any wrong doing in that incident.

Canter

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:32 PM

Forget flame retardent suits - I'm wearing my Depends!
I don't see how tacked nosebands are cruel or abusive. How many of you have dogs? Is a choke chain any more abusive or cruel or is it a "training" device just like the tacked noseband? For all intents and purposes they work in much the same way and yet the choke chain is considered to be humane.
Aren't we being a tad holier than thou here?

Showpony

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:36 PM

This is the same thing I refered to in the "martingale" thread. Only the person I spoke of used a tack noseband and tight martingale.
This kind of thing has been around for a long time! I also know of someone who used the tack noseband and tight martingale because they said it stopped thier horse from leaning down.

Quote Va Trainer:
"This particular animal pulls on the noseband simply to be annoying!"

I also have to wonder if horses really have the reasoning ability to do something to us because they "know" it annoys us??? And in this situation, for entertainment???? I would think they/he is more likely just reacting to his own comfort or discomfort.

By the way I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the concept just wondering if there is a physical/training problem causing him to resist so much. Maybe there is not!

[This message has been edited by showpony (edited 08-30-2000).]

Heather

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:36 PM

First off, I hardly made a bash against hunters in general, so the stab at my sport was uncalled for and petty. Second, you are reading things into my words that simply aren't there. My horses all compete--so why would I call you cruel for wanting to compete? I also, repedeatly, did not call you abusive or this technique abusive--I just think its a needless shortcut to substitute for slower and more methodical training methods for horse and rider. As the owner of horse that in a former life was electrocuted with a car battery to make him run, I know very well that TRUE abuse is far, far more grisly than what a noseband can do. So please, don't put words into my mouth--I don't think anyone who uses these devices is a horrible human being--I just strongly disagree with them as a training method--I think there's another answer.

Always be firm with your horse--being animals of a heirarchical nature, they will try to alter there position in the "herd" with you . This however, need not involve devices that cause pain. There are other ways to be firm. If the horse doesn't listen, then find out why--go back to the basics and move him through them until you find the sticking point. More than likely, if physical causes have been ruled out, the horse just nees a little back to basics work. No shame in that, it's very common as you travel the contiuum of horse training. Under the headine of physical causes, have you had his hocks checked? If he is leaning on the martingale, that indicates to me that he is leaning onthe forehand, and is not balanced. A horse that doesn't want to "rock back" on his haunches may very well be experiencing some discomfort in his hocks. You might want to look into it.

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:38 PM

To all of those who disagree w/ VA Trainer, you must first experience what her horse is like before you can condemn her for using a 'tack' or 'chain' noseband.

At a recent show, my horse was particularly spooked by one line of jumps that were an odd blue/gray color. He always looked at them, from the first week, but when they changed the direction of the line and it was directly facing 3 bright, glaring cupolas for sale, that was too much for him and he stopped several times. He's a greenie w/ the "dumblood" mentality of just slowing down and backing off instead of spooking, what can I say? My trainer rode him in the warm-ups the next week, and she let him wiggle and stop at the jump so that she could repremand him accordingly for the rearing episode he threw in (he's a 17h chunky, obstinate WB). He was prancing around and rushing w/ me when I got on, so he was sent back to the barn and a tack noseband was put on, along w/ a short martingale. He pulled once, backed off, and put in a nice warm-up course. The next day we schooled him in that noseband before the Pre-Greens (which my trainer shows him in), and it made him back off TOO much. The noseband had served its purpose as a training aid, and was removed promptly. My horse learned. We've never had to use it since.

My point being... These nosebands have their place as both a temporary training aid (they DO work, even on my thick-skulled horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), and a permanent piece of tack. I know someone who uses one as a precaution for if her horse tosses his head in a hunter class or starts to lug and becomes too much for her. The noseband is never so tight that a painful amount of pressure is constantly being exerted on the horse's nose. If the horse pulls against the martingale, they feel a slightly more painful tug on their nose than usual and back off. Its that simple. I assume those of you who bash the users of these nosebands never use a chain lead rope on your horse sometimes? Its really the same effect - horse misbehaves and tries to drag you towards grass (as en example), he gets a sharp tug and stops. As long as neither is being 'abused,' than there really isn't a problem w/ it.

[This message has been edited by Jax (edited 08-30-2000).]

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather:
Oh, I get it--pain teaches. Have to remember that when I'm breaking my two year old--when doesn't instantly display the competitive skills of an advanced three-day horse I'l just beat him till he does. Good plan.

I'm not saying don't be firm, or risk your own safety by putting up with obnoxious behavior, but I'm sorry, it IS possible to show horses what is expected of them without causing them pain. I'm sorry you don't believe that.

If the horse is that dangerous or difficult, then put him together with a rider who can handle him without gadgets. If not, learn to ride.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy, Heather! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Let's not jump to conclusions! After all, we don't know VA Trainer, nor have we ever seen him/her ride or his/her horse. Basically, we don't have all the facts, in fact, we have very few facts. It's not constructive to assume things - such as, the horse is in pain, or to infer that VA Trainer is beating his/her horse.

Plus, we don't know what this horse's level of training is. It sounds like he's old enough to know better. I have a horse who does flip his head to be obnoxious -- it's an old habit rooted in the days when he had a novice (and frightened) rider on his back. (His name at that time was also "Posie" which I think had a lot to do with developing his obnoxious personality!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

I'm still not clear on what the chain noseband is. Frequently hackamore nosebands have metal strips in them. Is the chain noseband similar?

poltroon

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:38 PM

Here's the applicable rule from the Hunter division (www.ahsa.org): (http://www.ahsa.org):)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>1. Regulation snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are recommended. A judge may penalize for non-conventional types of bits or nosebands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally would not consider a tack noseband or a chain noseband a "cavesson", but the rule is open to interpretation. They are not specifically forbidden. In any case, the judge can generally not tell the difference since there is no close steward check of the equipment, and there is no question that many people use these nosebands in competition without penalty.

Hephaistion

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NorthEast:
LC I agree I have had horses go from Corkscrews, Gags, and all sorts of things to rubber or happy mouths, but every case is individual and when we are talking about someone who cares about their horse and wants them to be happy and perform well. Then we must be careful not to criticize unfairly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point NorthEast - that's part of what I was trying to say. This is just one of those subjects that many people feel strongly about, and some people over-react too.

Lillian - you make it sound like VA Trainer is a bad person who can't ride. Do you know her? Who are you to say that her horse is not "properly" broke and that she is only after a quick fix? Perhaps the rider before her tried to properly break the horse and messed it up and she is dealing with the leftovers so to speak? Nor did VAT say that this was a means to and end - perhaps she is in the process of settling down with a trainer to find the root of the problem. The point is, you don't know, so don't go getting all "holier than thou" until you hear a bit more information.

Perhaps VA Trainer would give us some background info so we may help her solve the problem, is there is indeed one?

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Here's the applicable rule from the Hunter division (www.ahsa.org):<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (http://www.ahsa.org):[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

Thanks poltroon for answering VAT's question! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope we haven't chased her/him away!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LucianCephus

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:48 PM

Sorry, Jair, but I refuse to believe that a horse "pulls on the noseband simply to be annoying!" Disobedience of this sort has a CAUSE, and inflicting even minor pain is not cruel so much as wrong headed. How long will it take the horse to discover that he can avoid the chain by ducking behind the vertical? Are there devices to cure that as well?????

Heather

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:49 PM

I did not say that VA Trainer beats his/her horse--I was making an example using myself of the no pain no gain comment. I of course do not know this person--so I have no idea if they do or don't beat their horse or give it carrots, ride wonderfully or horribly, or anything. The question was about opionions on the item--my answer is--I don't like them.

Xani

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:50 PM

Lillian, Do you realize how you are contradicting yourself. Fine maybe the tack noseband is more present than a steel pipe, but the end results are far from similar. A tack nose band cannot impale your horse and kill him instantly. Just because you find that alright it is? And as far as anyone seeing the incident as closed and o.k. speak for yourself and those that hold your view. To many it is the icing of hypocrisy! and your statements are as well. Because so and so does something it is alright but not someone less know? If George Morris suddenly announced that Tack nosebands were the best things in the world, you would be the first to jump up and down and probably hold a parade for them!

Aug. 30, 2000, 03:55 PM

Fear not, little rebels, I have not been scared away! I have found that the actual bridle I schooled my horse in has not only been to many A shows, it has been to INDOORS in REGULAR WORKING HUNTER and GREEN CONFORMATION divisions! HAH! And the horses WERE NOT PENALIZED FOR IT, WERE NOT IN PAIN, and DID NOT BLEED.

So....my new tool..."the best thing since sliced bread", will be served during daily schooling sessions, as well in the show ring.

BTW - the "chain nose band" I am talking about is nothing more than thin metal shaped like a chain inserted under the noseband. So calm down, OK?

Showpony

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:01 PM

LucianCephus-

Don't forget he does it for entertainment too! Not just to be annoying!

I have to agree that horses do not misbehave to be annoying but as a reaction to discomfort as stated in my previous post.
Before a horse is "told" to do something you should be sure it is not resisting due to pain. Then bring on the martingales, drawriens, whips, spurs, bike chains, etc.
Definiley KIDDING! I know not funny!!!

Zaboobafoo

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:02 PM

Thought I'd add my two cents about the chain nosebands to tell some of my success stories with both tack and chains...

My large pony Amazed, although beautifully broke on the flat(we never lost an eq class /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) would stick his head straight in the air when I tried to float the reins for a hunter course. So I took of the draw reins, put on a snaffle and a loose martingale and a chain noseband...went to drop the reins at him and TADA! His head stayed level. We continued to work on his flatting and stretching and long and low, but the tack noseband always went to the show ring with us.

Ricky liked to pull and open his mouth in the corners. For a couple shows and schooling session he wore the chain noseband...it didn't feel so great when he opened his mouth! After a couple weeks he was as light through the turns as after...the chain made it possible for me to never put more in his mouth then a plain snaffle.

Enters Jimmy, children's jumper. OTTB, still has racetrack mouth, but is soft enough and trying hard, so I don't want to put tons of bit in his mouth...a tack or chain(he went in both) and a happy mouth snaffle was his route to success...he fought a figure eight or flash, but the chain was JUST enough to make him listen...

like anything else, these tools are GREAT aids when used popularly and with caution...best of luck with your horse VT /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by showpony:
Don't forget he does it for entertainment too! Not just to be annoying!

I have to agree that horses do not misbehave to be annoying but as a reaction to discomfort as stated in my previous post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't your horses have personalities? My horse DEFINITELY does things to be annoying!! (In fact I may lobby my trainer to allow me to use a tacked noseband) He's like the fat little kid in grade school who thought it was funny to pinch people! Not all horses have nice personalities you know, some are downright mischeivous!! Why sholdn't this extend to misbehavior, if it's created the right response in teh past?

Hephaistion

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zaboobafoo:
like anything else, these tools are GREAT aids when used popularly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha - I think you hit the nail on the head with your typo Zaboo!! So many of these gadgets are used because they are popular and not always properly as you were trying to say!

This is obviously an incredibly touchy subect, but Lucian - I was never advocating pain! Just pointing out that sometimes they stronger nosebands are needed. And as VATr just pointed out, they are LEGAL!!! Not that all methods should be allowed, but you would hope that if it were such an incredibly painfull device that the AHSA/USET or whatever would ban it!

I mean, what do you then think about hackamore bits? Gags? Twisted wire bits? Surely those are all worse then a chain noseband since they work on the mouth? What about martingales? How about a crop or whip? Surely a sound horse that has stopped in front of a jump when presented perfectly would benefit from a tap behind the girth upon the next approach!?! Or how about when dressage horses are taught to piaffe/passage from the ground using a long in-hand whip to gently tap their feet to make them pick them up? Are those devices wrong too?

Sorry to sound annoyed, but from the way some people are reacting, it sounds like we should all be riding our horses bareback with neck straps (or is that a bad device too?) because no matter how you look at it, most of our horse tack/equipment could be considered "abusive" or "severe" from different view points. It all depends on how its used.

Hattie

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:37 PM

Wow a record number of posts in 2 hours! This wasn't even up when I left from work. I was just at a tack shop that carries many used items - what a collection of these nosebands that they carried! Beval, Edgewoods, etc. Evidently they are VERY popular.

havaklu

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:38 PM

CAH

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jax:
I assume those of you who bash the users of these nosebands never use a chain lead rope on your horse sometimes? Its really the same effect - horse misbehaves and tries to drag you towards grass (as en example), he gets a sharp tug and stops. As long as neither is being 'abused,' than there really isn't a problem w/ it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Jax...my sentiments exactly.

Any training device, if used incorrectly, can and will cause pain. Why do we have lead shanks with chains? Not all horses need them...great for those who don't...but anyone who handles stallions would not be very wise not to use one. Twitches? Tell your vet not to use one when he is performing some type of treatment which calls for one. Spurs? How many times do you see horses with telltale white marks at the spur line.
Sometimes going back to the basics requires making a point. And it sounds like in this instance that a point is trying to be made.

When we are finished debating who is right and wrong, why not debate child rearing philosophies? To spank or not to spank?

Just trying to make a point here.

wtywmn4

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:39 PM

Well Va Trainer, sooner or later, your horse will decide that the tack is NOT enough. Having walked into these shoes, not knowing. My horse came to me with a scar. She'd been shown with a tack nose band, tight martingale and pelham. She ran thru your hands. It did not stop her! Nothing seemly stopped her. No one wanted her, cept dumb ole me. A TB with a mares mind, heart of gold, and scared to death. Started all over again, found out her teeth were a problem, she'd never been taught to jump correctly, and she would plain run at anything. Hurtling herself over it. Very scary!!! Long story short, we worked very long & hard, with an understanding trainer. First show, we won our class over fences. That was in a racing dee.... We had nothing to prove and I had the time to put in.

Palisades

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:39 PM

I would never, EVER use something like a chain or tack noseband on my horse. I find those "aids" disgusting, and I'm surprised that so many of you advocate them (I'm not attacking anyone here, just giving my opinion on the device).
As for VT's problem, I would suggest using all other methods possible to correct it. First, check for unsoundnesses. Then, ask yourself this- have you been gradually making his martingale tighter and tighter in an effort to lower his head? Most of the time, this does the opposite. Try riding without the martingale in a plain snaffle (and a plain noseband) a couple times. If the problem presists, go back to the basics...bending, flexing, collection, and framing. If you (or a more knowledgable rider) cannot get him to drop, I would suggest trying a chambone or draw reins (NOT to tie his head to his chest, but to encourage flexion and acceptance of your hands).
While I would never use one of these nosebands, in the right hands and in rare circumstances, they might be benficial (anything's possible! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) However, and this is meant with no disrespect, if you feel the root of the problem is that he is trying to be annoying, I don't think you really "get" the problem (I'm not saying that I get it either, but I'm not working with the horse) and should try to understand it fully before slapping a "quick fix" on your horse. Some horses hold their head high out of obstinance, yes, but I have found that these are the ones that gadgets are least effective on...they simply find another way to be "annoying".
BTW, if the horse is young and/or green, then these nosebands are definetly cruel! A young horse rarely understands the concept of flexion, and teaching him through pain instead of proper training will only ruin his chances of being a good mount in the future.

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:40 PM

Actually, I saddled, backed, & rode my 2-year old -- all for the first time -- on Sunday afternoon.

Better as a 2-YO than a 3-YO who is 10 times my size!!

havaklu

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lillian:
Basically you are using a gimmick in place of well-established, fundamental, long-term training practices. Horses that evade the bit by holding their head high have not been taught the proper relationship between hand and leg. You are using a shortcut to take the place of basic training that teaches a horse to give to the hands in response to the use of leg and seat (sorry, I'm oversimplifying here). Balance and flexibility also are part of the equation and it sounds to me as if your horse is not properly broke and needs a lot more training rather than placing something severe on his face so you can attain instant results. George Morris and the like would probably have a lot to say about your post!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya know I'm going to give you an example where the above doesn't hold true. I know lots of horses that are perfect little angels at home and never get strong or evade aids, etc. The problem ONLY arises when you enter the show ring.

Unless you want to show every weekend until the horse is so exhausted to evade, the use of some devices for the show ring can actually help a horse behave and learn that the show ring is not so scarey.

Wouldn't you agree that the show ring isn't the appropriate place for an half hour of schooling?

Of course another option to the chain/tack nose band is to have your trainer show your horse for you. OOPS we covered that in another thread...

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:51 PM

Havaklu....can't you keep your controversies straight???

Maybe VA Trainer is schooling his "CLIENT'S" horse in a chain nose band while wearing draw reins and ear stuffers? That would sound much more appropriate....don't you think? LOL!

Better yet, maybe VA Trainer's client is a spoiled rotten 16 year old brat that drives a BMW (or wait...was it a BMW, or was it a Mercedes??? Need to check on that one)....????

havaklu

Aug. 30, 2000, 04:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Colin:
Havaklu....can't you keep your controversies straight???

Maybe VA Trainer is schooling his "CLIENT'S" horse in a chain nose band while wearing draw reins and ear stuffers? That would sound much more appropriate....don't you think? LOL!

Better yet, maybe VA Trainer's client is a spoiled rotten 16 year old brat that drives a BMW (or wait...was it a BMW, or was it a Mercedes??? Need to check on that one)....????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Colin I can't keep anything straight!!! ;-) Of course I'm waaay too dizzy from lunging my horse so I don't ever need more than a snaffle with no martingale. I'm a purist ya know???

[This message has been edited by havaklu (edited 08-30-2000).]

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:00 PM

Xani -- sorry, I beg to differ. My comments were not so much centered around whether this noseband or George Morris were cruel, but, in my opinion, whether or not training to overcome such behavior was in order, rather than using more and more severe equipment to "fix" a problem. I've shown western for 40 years, and believe me, I've seen every gimmick known to man and the cruelty I've witnessed would make your skin crawl. However, it has been my observation, and experience, that horses are not so dumb as to learn to evade whatever you put on them, if the problem that created the need for the equipment in the first place, is not corrected. Let me give you an example. My hanoverian hunter mare is a big slug who totally ignores my leg. She's fine with my trainer who is strong and gets her to go with little effort. However, I only ride 2 or 3 times a week, and my leg is not as strong. I started out riding with a teeny weeny spur. Soon, my mare began to ignore the little spur. I bought a bigger pair of spurs. She soon ignored this pair, too. Finally, I'm now riding in the largest spur that's legal, and this mare could be a star in a western pleasure class. Now what do I do? I can't buy any bigger spurs, so I've come to the end of the line. It's obvious, this is a training issue. At some point, I'm going to have to get my leg in good enough shape to let this mare know I mean business. This is my point. A metal noseband may be a quick fix, but what do you do when the horse learns to evade that? The horse has learned this evasive technique, and will continue to find ways to utilize it until it learns differently. I'm not advocating that metal nose bands shouldn't be used. And no, I've never seen this horse perform, but from the description of the behavior that was posted, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that some serious work would help to resolve the problem. George Morris is not the end all, but no one can argue with his success and I'd bet he'd be the first to advocate a return to some basic training principles for this horse. And, once again, please let's stop re-hashing the George Morris incident in Flordia. We could argue about what happened into the next century. Jumping horses is inherently dangerous and sometimes fatal to horses and riders, no matter the quality of the horse, training methods used, or skill of the rider. Therefore, it could be argued, that if you really cared for your horse, you wouldn't put him/her at such risk. But of course, that's a ridiculous statement, isn't it?

LucianCephus

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:01 PM

"And as VATr just pointed out, they are LEGAL!!! "

Jair, I don't believe they're legal at all...they're just cleverly disguised so it's not apparent that the chain is there. But I didn't mean to sound as tho you were an advocate of abuse...again, my arguement is that such aids are, ultimately, ineffective, in that they teach the horse to evade the pain rather than accept their job. Again, I'm ashamed to admit that my Seger was consistently ridden in a double twisted wire (and, yep, I think that's abusive); he quickly learned to either grab the bit and drag his rider forward while leaning on the rider's hands, or get behind the bit and gallop on with no contact. The trainers who started him over made sure he understood exactly what they wanted when they asked him to stop or slow. By ballancing him up, they allowed him to comply easily. He will now accept contact (on the snaffle) and leg...not truly a miracle, just an understanding of horses and a lot of very slow work with achievable objectives.

[Thus the sermon endeth, to the enormous relief of the bored disciples.]

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:18 PM

Devildog....didn't you get Gaye's email????

You're not supposed to be playing on this thread!!!!

havaklu

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:21 PM

You may generalize and sterotype hunters all you want Devildog but there are a couple of items we generally don't use in the hunter ring:

1) whips as long as our horses

2) spurs with rowels

Oh I forgot

3) full seat breeches

Lighten up and get over the Dressage is superior mentality. I've seen plenty of Dressage horses subjected to what could be considered cruel.

Sandy M

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:38 PM

Well, as someone who has done H/J, evented and done dressage, all I can say is that I don't PULL ON MY HORSE'S MOUTH to stop him (any of them - even those that got strong and pulled on cross-country). Therefore, he doesn't put his head up in the air - EVER. (Okay on the trail, on a loose rein, to look at something - maybe then he puts it up in the air)! Nor has he ever worn a martingale of any kind, nor drawreins. I will acquiesce to the idea of a standing martingale on a headtosser UNTIL HE CAN BE RESCHOOLED - better a martingale than a broken nose, but chains? No way.

And as for the length of dressage whips - they cannot exceed a certain length, and no one reputable BEATS on their horse with them. They are an auxiliary aid, not used for punishment (or at least should not be - you get all kinds in any discipline). Geesh. There ARE a lot of dressage people who will use "gimmicks" to incorrectly achieve a purpose - but you know, in their heart of hearts, they KNOW they are gimmicks, and KNOW they are incorrect and they darned well don't show up with them at shows because they aren't LEGAL for dressage - unlike many of the gimmicks discussed above which ARE permitted at H/J shows.

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:43 PM

You don't pull on your horse's mouth to stop or slow down??? You don't even touch it???What kind of drugs are you using? Or are you talking about a 20 year old QH?

If not....we ALL WANT your secret!!! Please, do share!

BTW - by pulling on MY horse's mouth I simply mean "applying pressure to the reins lightly with my fingertips, while humming a Mary Chapin Carpetenter tune softly in my horse's ear". Good enough?

[This message has been edited by VA Trainer (edited 08-30-2000).]

rusty

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:47 PM

Putting on flame retardent suit before jumping in on this thread.
I thought tack and chain nosebands were fairly common piece of equipment used to get a point across to a horse that is to strong. I also was under the assumption that it was also something that we didn't talk about to people of other disciplines that might take offense.

Palisades

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:55 PM

For those of you who argued that a chain noseband is the only way to get your horse to come down at a show, even if he is perfectly schooled at home, I completely agree with Devildogs comments about anything for a ribbon. Do you really want to use gadgets like this as a quick-fix to win now? Or do you want to take a season or two, working on creating the same flexion and bend you say you can get at home?
To me, changing tack this dramatically for showing tells the horse "well, they put that chain noseband on, there must be something different and strange going on". Why not teach him that a show is nothing new from what you practice at home?
What would you rather, in the end? A horse that has taken a few years to train to act properly at shows, and who now can respond correctly to leg, hand, and seat? Or a horse who uses his noseband as a crutch, because he has never been taught how to behave properly away from home without it? What happens if one day the AHSA does ban these gadgets? So much for your "well-trained" hunter.

Bertie

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:55 PM

BTW, VA's original question merely asked if such tack is allowed in the show ring...

Oh VA, did you EVER expect your question to stir up this hornets' nest???? Seeing that you're a new member, you might've missed the 'lively' discussions provoked by the likes of earplugs, martingales, and of course "posting to the canter" http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 05:56 PM

You're RIGHT, Rusty....but remember, this IS THE HUNTER/JUMPER FORUM! The "other disciplines" should retreat to their own forums before slamming us on our own! Just my opinion.....

BTW -- LOUISE is my FAVORITE DQ!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bertie:
Oh VA, did you EVER expect your question to stir up this hornets' nest???? Seeing that you're a new member, you might've missed the 'lively' discussions provoked by the likes of earplugs, martingales, and of course "posting to the canter" http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Bertie...I thought this BB needed some controversy, and I was on an "initiation dare" from the "Virginia Clique". Guess it worked, huh?

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
...Do you really want to use gadgets like this as a quick-fix to win now? Or do you want to take a season or two, working on creating the same flexion and bend you say you can get at home?

What would you rather, in the end? A horse that has taken a few years to train to act properly at shows, and who now can respond correctly to leg, hand, and seat? Or a horse who uses his noseband as a crutch, because he has never been taught how to behave properly away from home without it? What happens if one day the AHSA does ban these gadgets? So much for your "well-trained" hunter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly???? I prefer to have a horse going around and winning in a SHORT time frame as opposed to a LONG time frame, if given the option. In my opinion, these aids are legal, they are readily available, they have no harmful effects, so I will continue to use them.

Emma

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:05 PM

What do I do to stop my horse?

(she is by the way a 4yo Holsteiner mare).

Sit on my bum and sit deeper and she stops.

Took me a few months and to start with she was a very forward thinking mare that did not like to stop at all. A bit of persistance (and nothing stronger than a cavesson and a normal eggbutt snaffle) and she responded. But, ya know, I like to do things the hard way. It's also cheaper, because I don't have to buy bits of gear to hide my inadequacies!

BTW, what's so bad about full seat breeches? Can't see cat sick green breeches having any superior qualities.

Bertie

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:05 PM

VA -- It worked, alright! You Went for the Gold and set a record!

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-30-2000).]

Sandy M

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:06 PM

It's hard to respond and not be interpreted as being sarcastic. No I do not PULL on my horse's mouth. Nor would I call what you describe as PULLING - but you did. Usually if a horse is going to respond as you describe, one imagines a fairly strong pull to provoke such a reaction. If he is so sensitive that what you describe causes him to toss his head, then he still needs reschooling, not what appears to be a quick fix. A standard martingale, without chains, should protect your nose, and reschooling should accomplish the rest - unless this truly is a "gotta use it now because I gotta show" gimmick.

I use my seat and legs to stop my horse - and since my horse is already "on the bit," that is all that is required. He is very light in the mouth, goes in a either a Boucher or loosering medium mouth plain snaffle and is 14 year old TB cross: And he's stopped or slowed in this manner since he was 5-1/2 yrs. old (I acquired him, green, at 5). If I inadvertently use my hands too strongly he will most often stop in his tracks, rather than do a transition from canter to trot, for instance.

And since Charmayne James, 10 times NFR Champion Barrel Racer, competed her QH Scamper into his late teens, you better be careful about remarks about 20 year old QHs! I don't think anyone would consider Scamper a slow, deadhead horse that barely moves.

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Emma:
[B]What do I do to stop my horse?

(she is by the way a 4yo Holsteiner mare).

Sit on my bum and sit deeper and she stops.
B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your POOR HORSE'S BACK!!!! Yipes!!!! I would NEVER sit strongly on my poor horse's back....I barely put any weight in the saddle as it is.....You must have a great chiropractor!

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:15 PM

Devildog: Thanks for having the guts to say what I was too much of a weenie to say. I rode dressage with an Austrian trainer who worked with the best Europe had to offer. When I started riding hunters, I was appalled at how really unbroke many of the hunters were. I was taught by this dressage trainer that a high head could be a result of several things: 1) conformation, 2) lack of training, 3) lack of implusion (fowardness), or 4) a stupid rider. A high head creates a whole host of problems -- shortened stride (yes, you will miss the distance), hollow back, and lack of engagement in the hindquarters. While a horse may be able to clear the fence in such a manner, a round, engaged horse is better able to jump in correct form. And, I was taught, if your horse pulls on you, drags you around, raises its head, acts stupid at shows, etc., the solution is NOT to add more severe equipment, but go back to good fundamental flatwork to correct the problem. Such problems are rarely caused by jumping or "soft" equipment -- it is usually caused by the horse lacking in both physical and training skills. It has been my observation at our shows here in the Northwest that rather than spend time really getting a horse ready to show, trainers would much rather use gimmicks, purposely keep them unfit, lunge them to death, and drug them. While I didn't like riding dressage, I learned a great deal that has helped me enormously in showing my hunter. I personally think a lot of hunter riders could realize a great deal of benefit from taking a few dressage lessons here and there. They might find they don't need that metal noseband, or a 3-inch martingale, after all!

Showpony

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:26 PM

Spunky-

Yes our horses have (and horses in general) have tons of personality! But they do not display personality by resisting training.
Not by throwing thier head in the air and resisting the bit.

Let me just say again that I am not saying I am for or against "metaled" nosebands or martingales and I am not bashing Va Trainer... all I am saying is first make sure there is no physical reason(teeth need
done, sore back or hocks, to much feed ,not enough turn out etc).

No I do not think horses think to themselves "Hey, it really annoys my owner when I throw my head up and won't stop when she pulls on the riens so I am going to do it everytime she trys to stop me."

Maybe some things horses do to show personality may also be misbehaving but do they do it with the "intent" to annoy us??

I am not bashing anyone! If you think your horse needs a tack noseband, isn't sore, and you are knowledgable enough not to abuse it then that is up to you and your trainer.

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lillian:
Devildog: Thanks for having the guts to say what I was too much of a weenie to say. I rode dressage with an Austrian trainer who worked with the best Europe had to offer. When I started riding hunters, I was appalled at how really unbroke many of the hunters were. I was taught by this dressage trainer that a high head could be a result of several things: 1) conformation, 2) lack of training, 3) lack of implusion (fowardness), or 4) a stupid rider. A high head creates a whole host of problems -- shortened stride (yes, you will miss the distance), hollow back, and lack of engagement in the hindquarters. While a horse may be able to clear the fence in such a manner, a round, engaged horse is better able to jump in correct form. And, I was taught, if your horse pulls on you, drags you around, raises its head, acts stupid at shows, etc., the solution is NOT to add more severe equipment, but go back to good fundamental flatwork to correct the problem. Such problems are rarely caused by jumping or "soft" equipment -- it is usually caused by the horse lacking in both physical and training skills. It has been my observation at our shows here in the Northwest that rather than spend time really getting a horse ready to show, trainers would much rather use gimmicks, purposely keep them unfit, lunge them to death, and drug them. While I didn't like riding dressage, I learned a great deal that has helped me enormously in showing my hunter. I personally think a lot of hunter riders could realize a great deal of benefit from taking a few dressage lessons here and there. They might find they don't need that metal noseband, or a 3-inch martingale, after all!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, Lillian, but you don't see H/J people hanging out on the "DRESSAGE FORUM" telling you how to ride, do you??? I think it would be quite rude to do so. We all have different methods because we are training our horses to do different things, and our different disciplines have different backgrounds, etc., etc., etc.....

So why aren't you on the DQ Forum? Why are you on the H/J forum if you are a dressage rider? I think I know the answer....could it be because we are much more humorous? Enjoyable? Enlightening? Controversial? I suppose it really doesn't matter, and I am very happy that you are here on our forum....without people like you, whom would we ridicule? Whom would we harrass?

Egging you on is the sole purpose of this entire thread.....getting you "riled up", so to speak.....I keep thinking you all will eventually "get it" and stop "taking the bait" so easily, but geez....just doesn't seem to happen.

Thank you for the laughs...the enjoyment...the humor. It really made my day!

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
. . . sacraficing horses well being and teaching them with pain is NOT the way to go . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Devildog, where did you get the idea that the horse is in pain? VATr specifically stated that the horse was NOT in pain. The noseband VATr talks about is a thin chain covered in leather, which evenly puts pressure on the nose. The horse learns to deal with the rider's hands, and without having seen the rider, you can't possibly pass judgment on her/his hands.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The very logic behind shortcuts infuriates me. I don't understand why horses that have been shortcutted win time and time again over horses that are in the process of learning. . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Need anyone say anymore!!

Hephaistion

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:33 PM

My God! What has happened to everyone? Would you PLEASE stop bashing VA Trainer! She asked a question, and now is being hounded by some of you as if she were a chronic animal abuser. Lets face it, these devices are OUT THERE in the equestrian world, many of which are legal under recognized rules. However, please remember that for everyone who uses a crank noseband or chain one, there is probably someone somewhere doing something far far worse to their horse. (yes Devildog, I've seen some horrid dressage practices too - take a look a how AVG warms up her GP horses!)

Dressage is not superior at all, any more than H/J, Eventing, Reining or what have you - they all have their gadgets and bad-apple riders. It's the people - NOT the discipline that creates the problem (although that can turn into a vicious circle on its own as gagets come in and out of favour).

I think everyone needs to take a step back before they respond to this thread, because I'm seeing way too many "off the cuff" responses that are more tempermental and personal lecturing than constructive.

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
I think everyone needs to take a step back before they respond to this thread, because I'm seeing way too many "off the cuff" responses that are more tempermental and personal lecturing than constructive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jair -- I think everyone needs to READ this thread before they respond! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's clear that many people haven't!! Why don't we all make sure we know what we are talking about before dispensing our valuable advice! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:48 PM

Sorry guys, I gotta bit outta hand!

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 08-31-2000).]

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by showpony:
I am not bashing anyone! If you think your horse needs a tack noseband, isn't sore, and you are knowledgable enough not to abuse it then that is up to you and your trainer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Showpony - /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Actually my horse is fine in a regular standing, but my trainer doesn't even think I need that. You see, he flips his head when he's bored, not when I ask him to whoa. Nope -- I just gotta IGNORE the darn beastie! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif And he is very well-behaved, but used to be very spoiled -- he learned how to annoy his former owner/rider! Did a good job, too -- I got him on a swap 'cause she couldn't handle him anymore!!

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:54 PM

Devildog. Read what you wrote. You are slamming H/J people just as much as you feel dressage riders are being slammed. Read it. It's right There!

This isn't about that. It's about H/J TRAINING METHODS. Not Dressage training methods. They are different. THAT DIFFERENCE SHOULD BE RESPECTED!

If you are a dressage rider you probably do not know very much about training a H/J. I am a H/J rider, who does not know very much about training a dressage horse. I respect that. I don't go to the Dressage Forum and tell you what I agree with and what I disagree with. Do I???

Please read what you wrote....and see for yourself that you are no better than anyone else as far as the "slamming different disciplines" goes. There is a reason why the COTH created the different discipline threads. So that people with common training methods could discuss them with one another.

Puffin

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:54 PM

I agree Jair and Spunky! I have been reading this thread and can't believe at how nasty some of the posters have been towards those of you who have defended the occasional use of a stronger training device.

I still don't see what is wrong with using the chain noseband occasionally if the horse does continually throws its head around if you apply pressure. and just becasue it does doens't mean it hasn't been trained properly. Many bad behaviour is learned behaviour there is nothing wrong with the horse now, but somewhere along the way it was mistreated/mistrained. I would far rather ride my horse in a strong noseband for a day or two to get the point accross then spend weeks on end pulling at the horses mouth because he won't listen to my aids and thus causing greater frustration on the part of the horse. Mild discipline is not abuse!

By the way Devildog - I show dressage too, and you wouldn't believe how many people have gone for those crank nosebands to keep their horses mouth shut! You should see how tight some of them are too! As Jair said above - all disciplines have their less than worthy riders/trainers. But then you'll find unscrupulous people where ever animals (or people!) are concerned.

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:55 PM

Oh Devildog /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , I think that Colin's "no pain, no gain" comment was a joke! It certainly wasn't mentioned by VATr, whose horse we're talking about.

[This message has been edited by Spunky (edited 08-30-2000).]

lillian

Aug. 30, 2000, 06:57 PM

VA Trainer: Guess what -- I show a 3'6" hunter and an AA jumper. If you'd read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I rode dressage for ONE year and then took up hunters. I've been posting on this board for nearly a year. I value my dressage experience and am willing to admit that I can learn something valuable from other disciplines. Can you?

Bertie

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:00 PM

Who's pulling whose chain?

(Sorry... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/cool.gif I couldn't resist)

Hephaistion

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
An initiation for the "virginia clique". VERY immature. Well, now you guys are proving to be nothing but a bunch of trolls, and I fully intend to e-mail Erin about this matter.

I am hardly a member of the VA cliquie Devildog, nor are many on here.

I don't understand your logic, are you guys like prejiduced or something? trying to weed out the dressage people? Think I am a dressage queen for heaven forbid training my horse instead of using quick fixes, but that is YOUR problem not mine.

Sorry Devildog - but you're one of the ones that brought up that dressage is superior. You should have expected to get razzed about it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will not be leaving this board any time soon, as there are many people I DO like on this thread,

Good - I like you too /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

you all keep doing whatever you want, using gadgets and gizmos and harsh training methods, drugs, anorexia and all other sorts of things I hear complained about on this board. Well, I guess let it continue and keep it up so that is remains an elitist sport that only those with money can excel, those that are tall, thin and blonde are the only ones who win, on their horses that have so much leather on them that the cows are jealous! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All right Devildog - now THIS I take offense to. You are over generalizing to the extreme and I find your comments very unsettling. I do not see the H/J world that way at all - yes, they do happen sadly - but that is not what most of us here are all about. That is not what I'M all about!!! and I resent your implications that just because I jump that means I am automatically a part of all that junk.

Please be more careful with what you say. Pointing fingers and name calling is not helpful to any discussion.

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 08-30-2000).]

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:09 PM

Ok, I was wrong in saying dressage was superior, I didn't mean it literally, and I find it quite mean the people who try and get others riled up. Is that not the definition of a troll? HELLO! I don't mean to "bash" h/j's, and yes, I have learned quite a bit about them and know quite a bit, so I am not talking blindly. I don't agree with gadgets in ANY style of riding, and in my own opinion, I think it's sickening some of the things considered "normal"! I wouldn't use ANY of those things on my horse EVER! I think that dressage horses can benefit from some jumping, as well as hunters can benefit from dressage. Hunters actually "do" some dressage on the flat. Instead of cranking, pulling and using gadgets, why not take the time to TRAIN and do it right? The jumpers I have seen that have basic dressage, look FAR superior to those that have not.

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 09-01-2000).]

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:13 PM

Jair, I don't think that because you jump you are crap! I am sorry if I offended you!

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 09-01-2000).]

Spunky

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
I don't agree with gadgets in ANY style of riding, and in my own opinion, I think it's sickening some of the things considered "normal"! I wouldn't use ANY of those things on my horse EVER! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Devildog, jsut to clarify, "normal" is a saddle, a girth, a bridle, and a mild bit. No one posts about "normal" stuff -- that would be redundant and boring!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NinaL aka Chrissy

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:26 PM

I'm jumping in here but I'm not bothering with asbestos. I've been floating around the internet so long I'm immune to fire /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

First of all, it's not germane to this issue to bring up the merits of breaking your 2 year olds. Those of you that are doing so are doing a lot more harm to their joints than a chain will ever do to their nose. I break them at four or five and have never had a problem.

Also, dressage people, I have seen abuse and gimmicks at dressage shows. Crank nosebands?
How about DQ's with lousy seats bouncing away on their horse's back whilst swinging on the double bridle? And don't bring up the classical stuff. I know a classical trainer that was so abusive it made me ill. You can find abuse anywhere you want - just turn over the rock. I have friends that do dressage but it just turns my stomach to have somebody sit on their pedestal and tell me that dressage is superior because it is not abusive.

There is a BIG BIG difference between riding a horse on the flat and jumping a horse. Galloping (okay, I exaggerated, cantering) around a course of jumps is inherently more exciting than flat work. The purpose of bits with more bite, abrasive nosebands and martingales is to add a bit of control. In the right hands they are an artifical aid and are no different or abusive than any other artificial aid.

Training is behavior modification, no more, no less. There are many forms of behavior modification. You can teach an animal to respond to a certain stimulus (think Pavlov's dogs) and you can extinguish undesirable behaviors.

Behaviorists that point to the merits of extinguishing behavior patterns believe that the mere action of performing the undesired behavior is the reinforcement of the behavior. Everytime the undesirable behavior occurs the pattern is more deeply engrained in the animal's reactions. Preventing the undesirable behavior will eventually eliminate the behavior.

What does this have to do with VAT's chain noeseband? Simple, if the chain noseband inhibits the horse from pulling on the martingale then, over a period of time, we should expect that the behavior pattern will be extinguished and a normal cavesson will be effective.

OTOH, how would you propose to accomplish the extinguishing of the behavior by just riding the horse on the flat if the behavior is associated with jumping? I contend that regardless of how well the horse is going on the flat you would face the same behavior as soon as you reproduce the situation that causes the behavior. Of course, you could try the caveletti route but just remember, EVERY TIME that horse raises his head he is reinforcing the undesirable behavior.

My feeling is that the artificial aid (chain cavesson) will help accomplish the desired goal with, no doubt, much less wear and tear on the horse.

I've really gotten into using behavior extinguishment as a training method. I've found that by eliminating undesirable behaviors I have opened the door to my horse offering me desired reactions.

Nina

P.S. It is unfortunate that VAT expressed the idea that the horse leans on the martingale to annoy her. Ascribing human emotions to a horse is blatant anthromoporphism and is probably the cause of more abuse than anything else in the horse world. I like my horses (heck, I even TALK for them) but I never lose sight of the fact that they were basically put on this earth to serve as somebody else's meal. They can't possibly think the way I do. I rarely think about who's going to eat me next /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Emma

Aug. 30, 2000, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by VA Trainer:
Your POOR HORSE'S BACK!!!! Yipes!!!! I would NEVER sit strongly on my poor horse's back....I barely put any weight in the saddle as it is.....You must have a great chiropractor!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seeing as I weigh all of 50kg can't see myself being physically capable of sitting hard enough to hurt her. BTW, my chiro is yet to find a problem with her back - she's popped her poll once - banged her head on the stable.

Anyway, it's not bearing down onto her back like you appear to imagine. I shift my weight around.

I've just worked out why you need a tack noseband and heavy reins to stop your horse.

Colin

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:13 PM

Oh DevilDog....I really think you are taking this the wrong way. Of course I love you -- we ALL DO! Your opinion is your opinion. Mine is mine. They are different, but I respect that. I am NOT trying to talk you into accepting tack nose bands. Please don't try to talk me out of not using them. Just state your opinion....describe your experiences, and let it be.

This is a "lose/lose" thread as it is. There will be "NO WINNER". But respect of others beliefs is what is important here. If you do not chose to ever use tack nosebands, that is fine. Many of us do use them, and are simply discussing their benefits. That's it. Please allow us that opportunity.

Erin

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:16 PM

Guys, VA Trainer (who's not who she claims to be anyway) is just trying to piss people off. And is succeeding so well in pissing me off that I've just deleted her registration.

BTW, for any other members of this board who think using an alternate username gets them out of following the rules... think again.

Palisades

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:28 PM

Colin, I take offense at the idea that this thread discusses proper h/j training methods. I am a h/j rider, and I would never use most of the methods some of you are advocating on here. Saying that a discussion on chain nosebands is about h/j training is like saying that a discussion on twisted wire bits and lungeing until death is a discussion on h/j training. We don't all use them, we don't all like them. They are used in other disciplines as well. Please don't call gadgets h/j training methods, or I'm afraid the dressage posters will really have a reason to feel superior.
VT, if you want to take the quickie fix because you want the win RIGHT NOW, then by all means go ahead. I'll do it my way, and in 10 years I guarantee I'll have a happier, sounder, better trained horse, and I'll be a better rider and horseperson too.
BTW, if you really did just create this thread as a joke, it wasn't as funny as you thought. A lot of people on here ended up supporting a position that you and your friends apparently thought would get flamed. I lkearned a lot about some of the people on this board, and the majority of it wasn't good. If this is truly how the h/j posters feel, then sign me up for dressage 'cause those posters seem to support the TRAINING their horse position. Good for them.

Kryswyn

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:35 PM

Thank you Erin! I was beginning to wonder if I knew this troll; after what s/he did here, I hope I don't.

This thread shows us at our *worst*, the way "An Open Discussion* showed us at our best. Everybody posting here should re-read that for a reminder on how to have an intelligent discussion of a heated, emotional issue IMNSHO.

Astraled

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:37 PM

Erin, I *seriously* think I love you /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Ben and Me

Aug. 30, 2000, 08:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Maybe the Hunter world SHOULDN'T be changed, let you all keep doing whatever you want, using gadgets and gizmos and harsh training methods, drugs, anorexia and all other sorts of things I hear complained about on this board. Well, I guess let it continue and keep it up so that is remains an elitist sport that only those with money can excel, those that are tall, thin and blonde are the only ones who win, on their horses that have so much leather on them that the cows are jealous! Go ahead! I really don't care anymore! Spend thousands of dollars to get an "opinion" from a judge, that because they think Chestnuts with Flaxen are all horrible and don't pin your perfect-round, yet, the solid bay that chipped on every fence was pinned, simply because the judge likes bays. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Devildog, if that really is your opinion of Hunters, you obviously haven't been to a hunter show recently. Sure, we all complain about drugs and everything else, but its not as common as it may sound. Personally, I've never seen an annorexic rider at a hunter show.

Nor am I a rider who uses drugs (on myself or my horse), starves myself, or lunges my horse to death. And just because you are the same type of rider, but in a different sport, doesn't mean that others in your sport dont do the same.

Maybe we just gossip too much and discuss our problems more than dressage riders. However, I'm sure the same problems arise in all types of equestrian activities.

_____________________________________________

Following the thread, I wouldn't have a problem with using a studded noseband, or a stronger bit. I am a Junior rider, who is obviously not as strong as my trainer, on a 16.3 thoroughbred. This horse was formerly owned by a petite woman who basically let him get away with anything, and everything, because she was so small. I will ride my horse in a corkscrew if he gets strong, and take it out when he softens up. I only needed the corkscrew for one day of showing before I was back to a Big D ring.

Training a horse is a lot like raising a child. Some parents beleive in an occaisional spanking (not abusive, but to get the point across). I know that I was spanked as a child when I disobeyed my parents. I'm not really a bad kid because of it either.

Other parents beleive in taking the gentler approach and talking it out with the children.

Whatever floats your boat, its your opinion, not mine. And its your business, not mine. And I plan to leave it that way.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 09:10 PM

Thanks Erin!
I want to apologize and tell everyone that I don't think that dressage is superior. You guys sorta took me wrong. And Chrissy, any REAL classical instructor wouldn't resort to harsh methods, and I look for trainers that don't. And despite popular belief, you DO use a form of dressage between fences, do you think it is more effective to yank and pull a horse around a course, or is it better to have the horse on the aids and to be able to utilize his whole body? There are more aids then hands and legs. I personally think, and there have been people who agree with me, not just on this board but through e-mail, and whom have thanked me for speaking my mind, that training can be done w/o all these quick fixes. And if this was a joke, it was a cruel one! How mean to try and bring out the worst in people, especially knowing that some of us have strong convictions and beliefs. I stand up for what I believe in, and I believe that it it sad what the show world, yes, even in dressage, has come to. That a lot of people (not everyone, and I DO have a ray of hope from those who feel the way I do, thank you!) have to have everything rightnow. They are too impatient to take the time to do it right, and no, the systematic and longer way of training does NOT break down horses if dome correctly, taking your time, making sure the horse is having his basic needs cared for and isn't being pushed to fast. My beliefs are that if you have to resort to a gadget to get the job done, that the horse is not yet ready for that level of work. In my opinion, cheating your way up the levels is not as satisfying as riding your way up the levels. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 08-30-2000).]

creseida

Aug. 30, 2000, 09:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sea Urchin:
1) most reputable hunter/jumper trainers would consider a chain/tack noseband to be a perfectly acceptable aid with a horse that warranted it; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the ones I've met. The DIS-reputable ones, yes, (and I've met more than a few) but the ones who value a well trained horse for his consistency vs a gadgetised one who is not consistent do not condone these methods. Unfortunately, these patient trainers are becoming the minority. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
2) probably 50% of the horses at any given class at indoors show in a cavesson with some type of moderate chain or tack appendage; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is true, then it speaks VERY POORLY of the quality of training these horses are receiving, and the quality and integrity of those doing the training. Heaven forbid anyone actually spend time training their horse when they can force them to do something with a gadget. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif You know, it's "instant gratification" thing that today's society is caught up in. Sad, indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
3) an egg butt snaffle can be more abusive in the hands of an uneducated rider than a tack noseband with an educated one. Just my opinion, obviously!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but the tack noseband is more likely to be misused than the eggbutt, and it is harder to cause permanent damage with a big fat round bit than with metal spikes. Yes, I have seen a horse whose nose was rubbed to bleeding from a tack noseband. The hair never grew back.

Instead of forcing the horse to comply, why not ask youself if there might be a reason he is unwilling to comply? Are you overfacing him? Does his saddle fit? Does he have dental issues? Does he have allergies making him flip his head? Are your hands so attrocious that you are causing him pain? Is he reacting to being overbitted in yet another attempt at dominating the animal instead of developing a partnership? Oh, wait...(sheesh!) I forgot <slaps palm on forehead> that takes time and patience which is generally incompatible with today's society. My bad. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

ErinB

Aug. 30, 2000, 09:34 PM

Okay, now why don't we all kiss and make up considering a good portion of the h/j board people are fighting over a thread started by a person who doesn't exist. I came here to apologize for getting a little snappy early in the thread (I was in a bad mood), and a lot of goot THAT would have done! Gosh, what did you guys do, dip your keyboards in acid or something? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Personally, I still don't disapprove of chain nosebands when used correctly, and I prefer a hunter D-ring to a double bridle, and I despise full seat breeches (icky green TS all the way!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), and I'd rather have a Beval than a Passier. That doesn't make me a bad person, just like Devildog isn't a bad person if she prefers full-seats to Tailoreds and a dressage saddle to a close-contact. We were all trained differently. It's like saying that Jewish people are superior to Christians. You're just not going to stumble on an answer that pleases everyone.

Paige

Aug. 30, 2000, 09:55 PM

My two cents:
If your horse is collasping a corner, it needs to be fixed. You apply inside leg. Your horse moves away from your leg and into the corner. Why does your horse do this? Because he wants to stay in the corner? Nope, otherwise he would have been in the corner in the first place. Its cause you squeezed with you leg. And squeezing with you leg causes pain. Not extreme pain, but its also not the most comfortable. Now, if to get your horse in the corner, you jabbed him with a sharp spur, that might be too much pain. The horse would do something different than what you want.
So, for the chain noseband. It seem VAtrainer's horse is responding well to the chain. Now, if the chain really hurt the horse more than was absolutly necessary to get the desired results, i'm sure the rider would notice it. You would get a multitude of faults if there was pain. I think the question depends on the horse. You would have reaction of extreme pain if you used a chain noseband on some horses(i think mine would be one of them). But on other horses it is an effective aid, like spurs or even hands. It all depends on the horse-people have different reactions to pain, I'm sure horses to do.
-stepping off my soapbox-

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:14 PM

Ahhh, but what is that applying leg and moving away from the leg, could be....DRESSAGE????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Seriously, putting, and I mean GENTLY applying pressure to the side of a horse does not create pain. Kicking does, but take your arm and press it into your side. Does that hurt? Now, take a chain and place it on your nose, having someone else hold onto it, and jerk your head up quickly... This was meant jokingly!!!

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 08-31-2000).]

Megan & Tequilla

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:20 PM

<< You don't pull on your horse's mouth to stop or slow down??? You don't even touch it???What kind of drugs are you using? Or are you talking about a 20 year old QH?>>

I just had to reply to this one! Being that my horse is a youngish ex-racing TB, I've learned a number of creative methods of slowing down excited horses. At the track they learn to *speed up* when rein pressure is applied and slow down when the reins are loosened and the jockey stands up. Therefore, the worst thing you can do when retraining them is to brace and pull...they generally just get faster.

However, if you can teach them to listen to your body as far as slowing down and speeding up, you're way ahead of the game. Takes some practice but it's one of those things that once you try it, you'll never want to go back (I think anyway).

Kryswyn

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:40 PM

In dog training, we talk about a dog "Taking the hit" , that is a snap of the choke collar or the *ZZzzapp!!* of an electric shock collar. In other words, the dog accepts the pain to do something it wants to do (lunge @ another dog, chase the cat off the property, bark endlessly)

A horse that runs from the rider's aids may "take the hit" to resist the rider. Some horses wearing tack nosebands will bump it and back off, others, for whom the pain is like yet another maddening sting may just get angrier.

For those that think its use is okay, the question is simply this: if you could ride the same horse as easily without the tack/chain noseband as with it, which way would you prefer to ride? If you choose the former, are you willing to investigate the reasons why your horse needs this item of apparel?

For those that would never use it, imagine you are at a major horse show w/ your pride and joy, who's being looked at a *third* time by serious buyers for a cool six figures. After a 3rd ride by the prospective buyer (who's heavier handed than you, and stiffer, too) your Pride begins to elevate his head and run through the bit. Someone offers you a chain noseband. Do you use it? You know a) this is behavior is just a temporary response from the buyer's recent ride; b)you know as is, Pride will not pin let alone win. A good ribbon in the next class will cinch the 6 figure check. What do you do??

havaklu

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Ahhh, but what is that applying leg and moving away from the leg, could be....DRESSAGE????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Seriously, putting, and I mean GENTLY applying pressure to the side of a horse does not create pain. Kicking does, but take your arm and press it into your side. Does that hurt? Now, take a chain and place it on your nose, having someone else hold onto it, and jerk your head up quickly...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay - this is going to seem harsh to some of you but Devildog who wrote the following??:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>LATEST NEWS
My poor girl! Chloe has been having problems flexing and bending going to the right, and so my other trainer e-mailed my trainer and told her to bring her to her place pronto to have her teeth done. Well, her teeth were so bad I am lucky she didn't kill me everytime I touched the reins! Her gums were all cut up, her cheeks and her tongue were pretty shredded to from her sharp teeth. She's off for a few days to heal, but we should see a huge improvement in attitude now! Makes me feel sorry for punishing her for acting cranky now though, because she was in pain!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if your profile is accurate - YOU DID!!! For someone who is such a classical rider and a horseman, I am somewhat surprised that you let your horse's teeth get so bad as to cause the above scenario which you put on your own Web page. You fully admit to causing your horse pain. Worse yet, you manage to cut up her mouth using what I assume to be a relatively mild bit (based on your classical training). You claim not to use whip or spur on your horse but you sure did a number on her with the bit.

I realize you are young, but you are old enough to understand the concept of hypocricy. I think you need to spend a little more time inspecting your horse while grooming to avoid any more painful circumstances for your horse. A horse in a chain noseband can get immediate relief from discomfort by not pulling against the martingale. Your horse was put in a situation where she could not escape the pain.

At least you recgnize the need to give her a few days off. I wonder if you will have any lingering issues due to this... Time will tell.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:50 PM

If the people will blow you off and not by the horse for a few seconds of resistance, well, their loss! Seriously, I am not training my horse to show her and sell her, I am training my horse because I love to ride and ride correctly. If I somehow managed to get myself in that situation, I would simply "school" the horse properly, as if it were my horse, he would be showing the appropriate level of his training, WITHOUT gadgets and shortcuts. But hey, that is just me... I am not into horses to make money, I am into horses because I love them and enjoy thier companionship.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 30, 2000, 11:59 PM

I got a bit angry, and so I am deleting my posts...

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 08-31-2000).]

havaklu

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
havaklu, before you go out and start "catching" me on things, when I say "punishment", I don't mean harsh. When she would resist, I circle her until she would soften, then release. I put more leg on her and drive, I realize that there needs to be a bit of "discomfort" in order to train horses, but quick fixes and gimmiks are not the way. I use a system of punish/reward. I don't go overboard with the punishment, but I really reward at this point, so that it is clear what I want. My mare does not go around with her head in the air, and if she does hollow out for a second or two, quite often all I have to do is apply more leg or GENTLY half halt and drive, and sometimes circle. Sometimes I carry a whip, hardley ever, but I don't beat the living daylights out of her with it. I have it there just so she knows it is there, or to reinforce my leg. What I mean by that is to just TOUCH her with it near my leg. It's not the same as a chain that is constantly on the nose!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright Missy. I tried to give you a chance to back off and keep some of your "holier than thou" comments to yourself...

Of COURSE your horse doesn't fling her head in the air - how could she with a cut up mouth and "shredded" tongue???

Since when is IGNORANCE a plausible defense? Just because you were too ignorant to check her mouth means you didn't cause her pain. Who puts the bridle in your horse's mouth???? If ignorance makes someone innocent then 90% of the h/j crowd who do use chain/tack nosebands are innocent because most of them don't have a clue what they do and how they work, let alone are they aware that they MIGHT cause the horse some temporary discomfort. They are just doing what their trainers tell them.

I see you admit to doing what your trainer says without question. So how do you learn the reasoning behind WHY you do the things you do??? I thought you were a horseman.

WAIT A MINIUTE you DO carry a whip SOMETIMES???!! I think you need to go to www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com) and look up hypocrite. You need a word for the day other than superior.

Oh BTW I notice your horse goes in a flash noseband - hmmm some would call that a gimmick...

Sweetie why don't you show a little maturaty and admit that you have been B-U-S-T-E-D!!!!

Duffy

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:43 AM

Ouch -- Ouch -- Ouch!!! And I'm NOT talking about a horse's reaction to a chain noseband. . .I'm talking about the hurtful posts being thrown around here. . .

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:44 AM

Also, my trainer EXPLAINS things to me, THAT is why I do them without question. I DO ask questions if I don't understand, but she always tells me how they work and why they work. She will explain further if I ask. I don't go around with my head up my butt. Why don't you go look up the word "antagonistic"?

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 08-31-2000).]

Zaboobafoo

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:29 AM

ok, ok, I KNOW this thread should be dead, but I just hate to see the discipline I love so much ripped apart by those who think their sport is better...I'm not an elder by any means, and have tons and tons to learn, and am not at all climbing on a soapbox...more like peaking my head out from under the rock from which I hide for a moment, but I just wanted to make some points...

I've taken dressage lessons for the latter half of career, in addition to my hunter/jumper lessons. I've competed at the top levels of h/j, up to Indoors, Devon, and Medal Finals, tricolors at WPB at the like. I trained dressage with Barbara Silverman, who unfortunately left us all just a few months ago, but who had an amazing knowledge of horses and their balance. When schooling my horse some upper level movements(she had my eq horse doing a little bit of piaffee and passage and tempi changes in one ride...must not have been doing so bad flatting him myself), she told me that if I decided to go dressage with him, I would need to stop jumping. "You can't do the highest levels of everything. They build different muscles."

Everything I have ever owned has flatted in a plain snaffle(or a rubber) and no martigale. And I am not at all the only one who schooled my horses in this manner. Walk around the show grounds at a major show and look at the horses schooling...you'll see mostly loose rings or plain snaffle on the best horses. But when you walk into that show ring and you have that one shot for the perfect round, you want to be prepared for everything. Preparation is EVERYTHING! And like it or not, showing is about winning.

You do everything you can to prepare for the show beforehand, doing your homework...then you go into the ring and you have every possibility taken care of, and hopefully, it will pay off. If not, we go back home and do some more homework and hope it goes better next time...of course the goal is to get the horse to go as smoothly and softly as possible...the only way to get that effect is a relaxed, happy horse. No forceful training is going to accomplish that.

I have seen the beauty of dressage, the thrill of cross country, the bright sides of every discipline...but nothing holds my heart like a perfect hunter round, where horse and rider hunt around the course as one, never pulling, never a disagreement about a takeoff, jumping each fence with spark and style, ears picked and the joy visible in both horse and rider. For all of us, that is the goal.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:45 AM

Z, I agree with you about a lot of your points. I am glad to know that there are hunter riders out there with your mindset, it makes me less disheartened! Again, I apologize for calling hunter's inferior, it didn't come out the way I wanted, and I wasn't exactly in the best mood today! Guys, I don't want to pick fights, and I think it was terribly cruel of the person who started this thread to do it KNOWING that something like this would happen. And then havaklu had to jump all over me yet AGAIN and prove everyone how imperfect I am. Well havaklu? Are you happy? Too bad no one knows anything about you, I still don't understand where you go off bashing people for putting themselves out there, yet you make no effort to reveal who you are and make an attempt to show why you are so right all the time. We ALL have our little skeletons, and using a whip once in a blue moon, having my horse's teeth checked when she seems off and having a loose flash happen to be mine! So now, I am 'busted' according to you. What does that prove? That I fixed my horses teeth and that I had a loose flash noseband that comes standard on almost all dressage bridles? I don't agree with people who crank their horses' mouths shut. I don't agree with riders who throw their horses on their front ends and ride front to back and call it 'training'. My mare is healthy, happy, and in good shape. And for another thing, I have not had this mare for very long, and from what I have learned recently, it sometimes doesn't take long for a horses' teeth to het to a point where they are sharp and causing cuts in their mouths. It's not like I have owned this horse all her life and never got her checked out. She's current on shots, worming, shoeing and I even had her get a rabies shot because my friend's dog caught a rabid bat next door to where my horse lives. I love watching jumpers, and I like jumping my horse too, but I believe in taking my time and doing it right.

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 09-01-2000).]

Erin

Aug. 31, 2000, 07:23 AM

Havaklu and Devildog... TAKE IT OUTSIDE. If I see another post from either one of you directed at the other, I'm deleting it. This isn't the place for that.

wtywmn4

Aug. 31, 2000, 07:27 AM

Thank you Erin, we know we "love" you.. Hopefully this will quiet down.

LucianCephus

Aug. 31, 2000, 07:29 AM

Amen, Erin....thanks!!!!

Magnolia

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:25 AM

Wow - hot topic.
For any of you with a chronic puller, and to any of you who have never ridden a puller, it stinks. I had a little mare that pulled like a freight train. We tried gags, and all sorts of ouchy bits (mare would pull on a gag). We also did dressage, worked on getting her to carry herself etc.etc.
She just liked to lean on the bit. So, we took her bit away, rode her on a hackamore, that was little more than a noseband with reins. Low and behold, she balanced herself, rocked back on her hind end and stopped pulling. At shows, she got a fat rubber snaffle w/ light contact in the ring and that was it. First show like that, got a championship over way fancier horses.
So if you have a puller, maybe they just hate the bit, and you should just take it away!
As for all the cruelty bashing back and forth - horses just want to eat in the pasture with their buddies!! They don't have a preference for dressage or jumping. Mostly, if you are nice, they like your companionship in the ring. Problems come up, you deal with them as best you can. Not every horse is perfect... and every day is different. Chronic problems may take some detective work - Lucy was checked for soundness, teeth checked, my riding checked, it took a while to find a solution.
So, I don't know, be nice to your horses, eliminate soundness reasons and pilot error first, then maybe try gadgets along with quality training.
At the end of the day, if you are cruel to your horse, it will come back to you...if you love and respectfully train your horse, he will take care of you.
As an aside, there are shameful practices in all sports - hunters that drug horses, jumpers that put crap in the horses boots, DQ's that force frames, western pleasurers that tie the horses head in the stall, shards of glass in saddlebreds feet...the people that resort to these practices rarely suceed for long, and rarely gain the respect of their peers. If you have to do that stuff to make your horse perform, get some training, change to a more suitable discipline, or buy a more suitable horse...
Just be kind to the horses - you'll have more respect for yourself in the end.

Heather

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:29 AM

Three brief clarifying points:

(1) I said "when I break my two year old"--he is two now--I will be breaking him when he is three, no jumping until he is four. I can see how that was unclear, and just wanted to clarify.

(2) If we are going to discuss the issues of training methods, then it seems the best way to keep a logical bent on the discussion is for me to say waht speciaifally I dislike about the tack or chain nosebands as a training method--and after much consideration the answer is "they can't get away from it". I've used stud chains on young colts who were learning their manners,and choke chains on my dogs, and the key to using those two devices correctly to TRAIN is that they be adjusted and utilised in a manner that the animal only feels them when they are being reprimanded. Thus, the cause and effect of innapropriate nehavior is made very clear to them. By adjusting a choke chain incorrectly, so that it never "releases" the dog has constant pressure on it's neck and is unable to make that cause and effect connection. When I consider the chain or tacked noseband (or even certain harsh bits to take th issue farther), I see the same problem. While clearly they expereince "more" of the device when directly fighting aginst it, at no time is the horse able to be completely free from the sensation of the tacks or chain, because of its placement under the immovable noseband--especailly if a martingale is attached. I think this would be confusing to the horse, as it is never completely "rewarded" for the correct behavior, i.e. the complete removal of the unpleasant sensation. Finally, while I realize the average hunter warm-up or round tends to be in well-tended rings, accidents do happen, horse and rider "miss" at a fence, horse trips in questionable footing, etc. Every time the horse reaches for the bridle to "save itself" in those situations, it would be punished by the noseband (again, exacerbated by the presence of the martingale)--confusing it even further and certainly not teaching that saving itself and its rider is a good thing. Certainly when training an animal as large as a horse, the "effect" of an inappropraite behavior (the cause) must be a punishment that is not always a pleasnat sensation to the horse--the horse bites you, it gets a smack and loud "NO", the horse doesn't move off you leg as required, it gets a reminder tap with the whip that the leg means something--but always these corrections must be fair, firm, swift, and provide a clear deliniation to the animal of where the right and wrong behavior path lies. Conitnuous punishment, even mild punishment, can only serve to confuse the horse and slow or reverse the training process. After all, we ALL know a horse who quit jumping because it got banged in the mouth and/or back over every fence--same principle applies--cruelty no, inneffective and innapropraite training, yes. In a long winded manner--my OPINION of this method.

(3) If this thread was started as a joke, well, I think the jokes on ya'll--cause despite you I think its been overall an interesting discussion. I don't agree with the methods outlined here and I never will--but I think its important for all the disiplines to understand and learn about each other. Differences aside, as horsepeople we face many of the same issues and challenges and difficulties, and if we don't stick together, then we are all greater fools.

Colin

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:48 AM

Ok...time to end this one. I would personally delete the entire thread myself, except Erin has deleted all of my alter egos.

What I thought would be a fun, controversial topic has almost caused poor Devil Dog a heart attack, and given Erin way too much work and headaches.

Let's not "beat a dead horse" anymore here...nobody will come out ahead. I suggest we kill this one....and move on to safer topics....like "what kind of dog are you"...that was safe, right?

rescuemom

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:58 AM

This is the saddest thread I have read. Not only are so many going for the throats of so many others, but there seems to be a strong emphasis in favor of "whatever it takes to get the horse there when I need it to be there." Perhaps I'm being a Pollyanna in thinking that a horse and rider should be a partnership, a team, but I'm truly rather appalled that so often what I see in this thread is "the horse is just a vehicle for my ambitions."

[This message has been edited by rescuemom (edited 08-31-2000).]

Janet

Aug. 31, 2000, 10:05 AM

Now that everyone has vented, I don't think the root of the disagreements here are "dressage" Vs "hunter/jumper" or even "gadgets" vs "no gadgets".

I think the major difference is "showing and selling" vs. "training", and about whether or not there is such a thing as a "quick fix".

Zaboobafoo said: "And like it or not, showing is about winning." (And I apologize for taking this out of context, because the rest of her post was about training.)

devildog20 said: "I am not training my horse to show her and sell her, I am training my horse because I love to ride and ride correctly."

In one case, the training is the means to the end. In the other case the training IS the end, and and competition is just a validation of the training process. Discussion is unlikely to convert someone from one position to the other (though life experiences may).

This division is just as prevalent in dressage as in hunter/jumpers, but in the dressage world it is "politically correct" to "talk" the second (training) case, even if you "ride" the first case (winning, selling). This is (IMHO) the root of many of the "classical vs. competitive" arguments.

Magnolia

Aug. 31, 2000, 10:07 AM

Actually, this thread could have been constructive, discussing training methods to help pullers, an annoying problem with a variety of humane and effective solutions... I hope nobody read this and took it seriously and went out and bought some chain noseband to correct their horses problem based on untrue info.

MBS

Aug. 31, 2000, 10:21 AM

I am sure that nobody went out and brought a Chain or Tack nose band because of this thread. I knew as soon as I saw the topic that it was a JOKE. I was thinking of starting something like this because things were getting a little boring on here and when ever the VA crew starts something Funny they get in Trouble. Lighten Up!!!! And Have a Fun Labor Day Weekend!!!!! Next topics: New and Fun ways to Use Tack rails. and then The Drug Cocktail that makes my Hunter so Perfect.

havaklu

Aug. 31, 2000, 10:27 AM

Just a word of warning to anyone considering a chain or tacked noseband. Be very careful when buckling the cavesson. It should not be tight and the first time a horse or pony feels it press on their nose they can over-react to the point of flipping over (similar to the reaction when drawreins/chamdon/etc... are used).

IOW this is a piece of equipment that should not be used without supervision by a professional.

Someone earlier posted about buying a horse with a bald spot on its nose. Yes, this can be the permanent result of overuse of the noseband.

It is also my opinion that some horses do not respond well to this type of noseband, in which case, it is pointless. Some over-react, others don't seem to notice. In either case go back to a plain cavesson.

Jeb

Aug. 31, 2000, 11:07 AM

I just faxed Adidas to tell them I am outraged that they could make and sell these nosebands and I am going to boycott their Eggwave and Hairagami products in the future!

Now, I need to get back to the NBC site to spam for more Judo and fencing coverage!

Loveyameanit!
-Jeb

LucianCephus

Aug. 31, 2000, 11:07 AM

So, Colin, are you saying you started this thread using another name? And that it was a joke? Well, not funny....I'd really appreciate your not wasting my time with your freaking immature send-ups. If you're so bored, try getting a life.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 11:16 AM

Actually Janet,I DO show, but not to win. I show for fun, not ribbons. Ribbons are nice, but I am not out to see how many I can get. I show local small schooling shows because they are fun, and then, when I get to a higher level in dressage, like around 3rd, I will do recognized, I do like competition, and of course I like winning, but it's not the end of the world to me if I don't. I enjoy my harmonious relationship with my horse, whether we are jumoing or working with dressage. I was having a horrible day at work yesterday, and honestly, sometimes it is VERY hard to tell whether people are joking or not.

Spunky

Aug. 31, 2000, 11:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
Just a word of warning to anyone considering posting a joke thread. Be very careful when using an alter-ego. It should not be too easy to take seriously and the first time a member/poster reads such a post they can over-react to the point of flipping out (similar to the reaction when drawreins/chamdon/etc... arediscussed).

IOW this is a piece of equipment that should not be used without supervision by a professional [Erin?].

Someone earlier posted about buying a horse with a bald spot on its nose. Yes, this can be the permanent result of overuse of the noseband.

It is also my opinion that some people do not respond well to this type of noseband, in which case, it is pointless. Some over-react, others don't seem to notice. In either case go back to a plain cavesson.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazing, isn't it, how much like horses we really are???!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Let's all go back to VTRider's nice thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Janet

Aug. 31, 2000, 11:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Actually Janet,I DO show, but not to win. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. EXACTLY my point.

Showpony

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:12 PM

Chrissy-

I totally agree with you about treating horses like the can think, reason, feel emotions like humans. I started to post the same thing but decided not to. I was trying to get the same point across though.
Horses react to situations. Annoying someone is not a premeditated act by a horse. Your horse may very well annoy you but I don't think that is what they set out to do. Instead they are reacting to the stuation in a way they feel is called for. Whether
reacting out of pain, fear, past training or exhuberance(sp?). I know irrelevant to the topic.

havaklu

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:25 PM

Very creative Spunky. And so true /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wtywmn4

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:34 PM

Hopefully Colin, you aren't deliberately stirring the pot. If your posts are to be taken in jest, why don't you tell us up front? Or is that for a select few to know?

Quinn

Aug. 31, 2000, 12:43 PM

MB Stark ~ I want to add to your list ....... unique ways to "beat a dead horse."

Hopefully, everyone has an enjoyable Labour Day week-end and yes, in Canada we do spell Labour Day with a "u." You know, the correct way!!!!!

Colin

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wtywmn4:
Hopefully Colin, you aren't deliberately stirring the pot. If your posts are to be taken in jest, why don't you tell us up front? Or is that for a select few to know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well...kind of....I like to think of it more along the lines of "putting bait" out and "watching who takes it". Amazingly, it's the same people every time! I really thought they would have learned by now that by getting all riled up on controversial topics they are only accomplishing two things:

1) PERSONAL VENTING: Raising their blood pressure for absolutely no reason.
2) ENTERTAINMENT: Providing some incredible entertainment for many BB members who are stuck in the office with nothing but paperwork to keep them company.

It is someone's choice as to whether they become angry or not. One person can NOT make another person angry. That person has to CHOOSE to be angry. Many people made that choice on this thread, but MANY OTHERS did not. Instead, they chose to take it for what it's worth..."a training method that not everyone agrees with or uses", and get a good laugh out of those that were trying so desperately to "fight the losing battle".

This thread is a GENUINE HORSE RELATED TOPIC, unlike MANY that have surfaced recently.

Hephaistion

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:17 PM

For Janet et al. - what is wrong with showing to win? I know enough when not to show if things aren't going well at home, but if I do enter the ring - not only am I going to try my best, you can bet that if I make the jump-off I'm going to go for it! Otherwise, why bother?

As for dressage, why would you want to hold back in the ring? I know I'm not the best dressage rider out there, but I am still there to win - not necessarily against others, but against myself. If I got 59% last time, then you can bet I'm aiming for over 60% next time out. Sometimes I do receive a ribbon, which makes it all the sweeter. Otherwise, why do you bother going to a show at all? They are competitions for a reason after all.

Hey Colin - I thought it was a fascinating topic in the end. Not just about the noseband, but in human reactions etc. You have to admit guys, that some very good points were raised even though the thread hadn't been serioulsy intended in the first place. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:18 PM

It was a very cruel thing to do Colin. I am sorry but riding and training is serious business to me, and I don't take things lightly. It is my passion, I live and breathe it, it's not just a part of my life, it IS my life. Of course I am going to get angry when someone purposfully pushes my buttons or attacks me and tries to "prove" something about me. I am thinking of not even coming back to this board, because it always seems to get directed toward me. There are others out there that feel the way I do, and state so, but because I am a bit like eminem where I have the "balls" to say it and don't suger coat it or anything, then I am the little DQ who doesn't know what I am talking about. And then it's always me. It's NOT just me. There are quite a few people on this thread that agree with me, and yet I am the one personally attacked time and time again. Very sad.

Colin

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
I am thinking of not even coming back to this board, because it always seems to get directed toward me...And then it's always me. It's NOT just me. There are quite a few people on this thread that agree with me, and yet I am the one personally attacked time and time again. Very sad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to burst your claim to fame, DD...but it's not YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU. Actually, I thought you had been "prepped" about the thread from Gaye....?????

No personal attacks on you. Nobody grabbed your fingers and made you type posts. Nobody MADE YOU ANGRY. YOU CHOSE TO BECOME ANGRY. That's not our problem....but yours. You took it and ran with it yourself.

LucianCephus

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:25 PM

DD, I agree. This was just a childish stunt, and I very much resent someone utilizing the boards in this manner. If Colin were 12, I would not think another thing about it, but adults goofing on others is a bit much. A nauseating idea, a nauseating string.

[This message has been edited by LucianCephus (edited 08-31-2000).]

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:27 PM

Jair, I agree with you, my point is, there is a different attitude between "winning at all costs", and doing everything it takes to get to the show, and going to the show for fun, enjoyment, and when the horse is READY for the level he is showing at. Of course I am excited if I win, but I am not at the show to beat everyone. I agree with you about winning over yourself, that is what I love about dressage, you pretty much compete with yourself. THAT is why I show. Not to see how quickly I can get the job done, but to see how effectivly I can get the job done properly.

Hephaistion

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LucianCephus:
and Jair, are you sure you can't suck up to the Virginia twits just a little more??.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you read Erin's reference to "personal attacks" very well LC, because that's what you've just done to me, and I find your comment not only incredibly offensive and obnoxious, but incredibly childish.

You don't know me at all.

Bethe Mounce

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:41 PM

<<You don't pull on your horse's mouth to stop or slow down??? You don't even touch it???What kind of drugs are you using? Or are you talking about a 20 year old QH?
If not....we ALL WANT your secret!!! Please, do share!>>

Sometimes I wish for that 20 year old quarterhorse just to meander around on!!! I think I have been riding young horses too long!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our young horses are taught from the get go to stop from the seat/legs not the reins so hence "pulling" doesn't happen, at least not in the vein you might be thinking about. Pulling on horses' mouth can set up that horrid battle of you pull, then I will pull, and believe me that is one war I cannot win, so I try not to set it up in the 1st place.

Even over fences, the youngster will slow down as my body motion slows and my seat gets a bit deeper, sure there are some half halts along the way, but he reacts far better to a deeper seat or a lighter seat to go forward or slow down depending on what we are jumping.

I am running and ducking and donning my asbestos suit!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Palisades

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:42 PM

Devildog, please don't leave the board because of a few immature people. I think you raised some excellent points, and I was glad to see there were other people out there (including you) who viewed this issue the same way I did. If you got picked on, take it as a good thing because it means you raised enough valid points that other people sat up and took notice of them. I wish more people had picked on me!lol
I think that this was an interesting issue to discuss, and I would have congratulated whoever brought it up, however it seems that it was not intended to be taken that way. I think the jokes on them, because we all managed to have a discussion that stayed reasonably civil and was entertaining. For the people who were immature enough to post it maliciously, or egg the poster on, than you are no better than trolls.
And Colin, I realise that it is my choice to get angry or not, and I probably should have ignored this thread because a lot of people who posted held viwes that I am strongly opposed to and none of us are likely to change our minds anytime soon. However, maybe I am too principled (nah, actually, change that to too arguementitive) to just let some comments slide. I have my convictions, and other people have theirs. As long as it remains civil, then I enjoy arguing it back and forth. It's called debating, supposedly I'm pretty good at it (I debate competitively). Personal attacks aside, I think this thread was great as a thought provoker, and for revealing people's opinions (even if I didn't agree with all of them). Thanks guys!

Hephaistion

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:47 PM

That's exactly what I said Palisades, but got bashed for it! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif Sucking up indeed...

It was a good discussion. As with most of these "hot topics" its what YOU choose to get out of it. There were many levelheaded responses here. I never see any point in getting worked up in BB land. Controversial yes, but angry, no.

LucianCephus

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:48 PM

Okay, okay, I'm sorry, Jair, I was in overload. My problem is that [I like to think of it more along the lines of "putting bait" out and "watching who takes it"] is the very DEFINITION of trolling. It's not amusing to watch the reactions of people being deliberately baited...it's simply cruel. I think the responses to DD and Lilian were way over the top.

I have no problem with the Clique playing here...I just don't bother with their postings. But to deliberately pose a supposedly serious question and then flame people who responded sincerely is NOT DONE.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:48 PM

Palisaids, glad you are on my side! I think you and I are a lot alike. Do you mind if I e-mail you?

Call Me Count

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:53 PM

What a bunch of STUPID taking sides posting adults. I am not an adult, yet, but I have more commen scence then half of you. Lighten up have a little fun.... Life is fun once you learn to live it.
As for the nosebands...I use one and they are not in any way abusive, or mean , or hertful in anyway twords a horse. They help...just as a martigale or a beval pad. We all use little extras...kill me for choosing to use a nose band.
A horse is not a week, and fragile. You sometimes need to make a point with them and sometimes if you need to be a bit harsh then you have every single right to go ahead and do so.
No, I am not an animal abuser. I do care that all animals should be takin care of to all extents. But if using a tiny winy chain is wrong and abusive...that is a bunch of bull.
sorry for saying that some of you adults need to GROW UP...

Spunky

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:54 PM

Jair are you going to Spruce to watch the Masters?

Janet

Aug. 31, 2000, 01:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
For Janet et al. - what is wrong with showing to win? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with showing to win (as long as you don't do it at the expense of the horse's welfare, which I don't think you do, from what you have posted).

My point was that the "showers" and the "trainers" have a different set of priorities, and therefore a different set of tradeoffs in making a decision. (And in the rest of this post, I am using "trainer" to mean "training focused rather than showing focused", not its usual meaning.)

If your focus is on showing, then a "quick fix" which isn't going to hurt the horse, and isn't going to solve the underlying problem (in this hypothetical case, throwing his head in the air when you try to slow down), but is going to result in a nicer looking round THIS WEEKEND, is completely justified. You can (and should) always go back on work on WHY he throws his head in the air next week, or when the show season lets up.

If your focus is on training, the "quick fix", even if it is doesn't hurt the horse AT ALL, is just a waste of time, and may make it take longer to fix the underlying problem.

The "shower" would rather put off addressing the long term underlying problem (at least for a couple of days), to increase the chances of a ribbon today. The "trainer" would rather put off the chance of a ribbon in order to address an underlying problem.

To say it again: there is NOTHING wrong with either perspective. They are just DIFFERENT.

Xani

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:01 PM

When did Slim shady become someone to look up to, I find that offensive. Really as homophobic as his lyrics are.....very bad taste!

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:04 PM

I didn't really get 'angry' until havaklu started in on me. Before I was disheartened and horrified, but not angry. I agree that these discussions are interesting, and count, I was joking about the "taking sides" thing, sorry you took it so literally. I do however, think that it was not very nice of you to call all of us stupid. Because we don't agree doesn't make any of us stupid. Stirring the pot and purposfully trying to anger people was not a very nice thing to do, because some of us take training our horses seriously, and strongly disagree with the use of gadgets. Does that make us stupid? I hardley think so! The same heated discussion could be had ona dressage board, classical vs. competative, gadget vs. none. It is the same from discipline to discipline, and yes, I was wrong in saying dressage was superior. However, I apoligized for it and several people chose to ignore that, they keep on going. I admitted I was wrong and for some reason they can't let it go. And now they will lecture me and call me a hypocrite and tell ME to let it go, but I still will always feel that a horse is not a fully and correctly trained horse unless he is trained without cramming and jamming. Martengales on horses that toss their heads for YOUR PROTECTION ONLY are the only thing I would use. I have had pullers, I had a 16'3hh 1600lb horse that would practically rip my arms off. With correct riding and time, she doesn't pull anymore.

DMK

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
I never see any point in getting worked up in BB land. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jair... wiser words have never been spoken

NorthEast

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:10 PM

I am glad that I have some sense of self worth and coinfidence to know that the techniques I use are appropriate and my riding, trainer, horses, attitude, showing success can all stand on its own without feeling the need to battle with overstrung emotional ego tantrums as this thread has exposed.

CAH

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:17 PM

Well, if anything I've learned that these things exist. My new Dover catalog arrived yesterday and lo and behold...there is the noseband. Interesting...don't remember seeing it before.
And ear bunnies...didn't learn about them until walking through a tack shop at WEF in Tampa.
Glad my 17H goes in a full cheek with no martingale...and pull is the last thing on his mind!

Palisades

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:18 PM

'Course I don't mind if you e-mail me, DD! I'm so proud, I made a friend on the BB! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Wow, I need to get a life outside my computer and horse)
My address is jnairn@sstsystems.net and my ICQ # is 77150474

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:25 PM

Sorry xani, I didn't mean to offend you by that, but those particular lyrics just seemed to fit. I don't look up to him, I don't even listen to his music. I just remember those lyrics and it seemed to fit the way I felt. Did not mean to offend anyone. I will remove it if you want me to!

Hephaistion

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spunky:
Jair are you going to Spruce to watch the Masters?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying too! I love going, but it depends on work. Besides, this year most of the top horses/riders are already in Sydney so although it will still be a good competition (and a good chance to see some riders we don't usually see from Europe since some of them will be "B" team riders that don't ususally get the chance!) I won't be too upset if I miss out this time round. Are you going?

Xani

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:37 PM

Devildog20, I am only joking with you, don't get upset and waste precious energy, that you could be putting into something worthwile. You have great ideals and values when it comes to your riding and training, but don't judge someone because they may use a piece of equipment you may find offensive unless you know the whole story. I can't equate a tack noseband with cruelty, because I have never seen it so applied. I have seen it rarely used on horses that are more than just pulling but are like freight trains with all front nose first engines. Also remember that just because someone uses certain equipment does not mean they do not use or work on the fundamentals and more natural or classical training. Like somone said a piece of equipment may get the horse prefroming well at shows until it is no longer needed, because of the work being done at home, it may not and may always be a part of teh horses tack but that doesn't mean the rider can't ride and is cruel and abusive. The types of people you are refering to hopefully do not post on this Bulletin Board and so we shouldn't look for the worst but rather the good in each other as we interact here.

Erin

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:43 PM

Oh for crying out loud... are you folks ever going to let me get any work done? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

For those who have experienced a momentary brain lapse, let's review. Trolling is NOT okay, ever. I have no problem whatsoever with kicking your butt off this board if your only point here is to antagonize people. Colin, as I'm sure she's quite aware, is on thin ice. But she has promised me it won't happen again.

Posting under multiple usernames is also not okay. While it's not expressly against the rules, I find it to be pretty deceitful and counterproductive. Apparently several people here have traded usernames back and forth, "given" them to other people, etc. There's not much I can do to stop it, but I want everyone to know that it's not looked upon favorably. And if I catch you at it, I'll delete your alter egos and consider kicking you off the board altogether.

You all know darn well that personal attacks are also not okay. Everyone is prone to shooting their mouth off when they're angry... it happens. I'm glad to see that the more mature members of the board have apologized for that.

Once again, you are not here to talk about each other. Disagree with someone's opinion, but don't try to tear them down for having that opinion.

Now act your age, quit sniping at each other, and move on. My patience is running VERY low...

Policy of Truth

Aug. 31, 2000, 02:56 PM

I have recently been too busy to notice this thread, but I just now got through reading it...WOW! Colin, why did you do this? I am so dissapointed that you would start this, knowing the possible outcome. Have you done this before? I can think of several other threads that are similar to this one. Are you serious in that you needed some entertainment? Try reading a novel, making some friends, or (shock) riding your horse! OR, try and WORK at your place of employment! I'm just really surprised that YOU would do this just to get a rise out of people.
DD, please don't leave us! I admire you for your boldness, and courage, especially when many were bashing you. As in anything, no matter how well-meaning you are in your statements, someone will inevitably root through your "dirty laundry" and pull out anything they can to make you look bad, so that in effect, they come out "clean". The only problem is, I for one, know you too well to buy into their meaningless, but hurtful bashing. I'm sure there are plenty of others on this thread who's perceptions of you were NOT tainted by other people's bashing.
I would say keep your head up, but someone might slap a tack noseband on ya! Ouch! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:08 PM

Thanks solo, I won't go anywhere! I have found out recently I have some really good friends on this thread!

Inverness

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:09 PM

Whether this thread was intended to rabble-rouse or not, it did stimulate some very thoughtful and informative discussion(cold-cocking and hair-pulling aside).

Sincerely,
Inverness (a/k/a Virginia Twit)
c/o Virginia Clique
P.O. Box 69
Middleoftheroadburg, VA 00022

Bumpkin

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:10 PM

THANK YOU Pacificsolo! You wrote exactly what I wanted to write. Colin perhaps you should tell your boss you need more work to keep yourself better occupied. I am also so disappointed in your behaviour and to think that most of the VA group are most likely just you living in UT.

Erin

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:26 PM

Okay, that's really quite enough... please please PLEASE try to move this discussion back to a real discussion. (Has anyone seen Northeast's very interesting thread idea?)

I agree, the discussion of training vs. showing and the value of the "quick fix" is very interesting. Maybe someone would care to try to focus on that part of the discussion under another heading?

Astraled

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:30 PM

Hey as long as we're making a 100 worst things about DevilDog list (prepare yourselves for a major revelation): She spelled San Francisco wrong in her profile http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif ! The horror, the horror!

I'm only funnin', Devildog, hope you stay on /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:35 PM

Did I /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif I'll go fix that right away!

Spunky

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:37 PM

Jair, we went to Spruce Masters last year. Now THAT was some good jumping!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You're right, it's not likely to be equalled this year when all the world's best are in Sydney. My family will be going, but unfortunately I cannot take the time off work to go . . . otherwise, I'd be there!! Maybe next year we'll be able to meet there!

Hephaistion

Aug. 31, 2000, 03:59 PM

Sounds good Spunky! Its a lot of fun to watch the Master's with a big group of people. We usually end up having a friendly betting pool before the big grand prix. I am looking forward to seeing it on TV!

Canter

Aug. 31, 2000, 04:34 PM

Whew...now that the smoke has cleared I'm exhausted from catching up on all those posts. Rightly or wrongly thanks. Hasn't THIS topic been an education in more ways than one.

CTT

Aug. 31, 2000, 04:39 PM

I have been sitting here looking in on this thread from time to time and although I was not hapy to see it I think more people have seen the things people do these days to quick fix a horse. Im very firmiliar with these nose bands and at the same time I have seen the things people will do to keep from useing these gadgets. sometimes I see a use for them (gadgets in general) but I am not mad at collin for bringing this topic up. This is because things like these do exist and they are out there but Instead of sitting here getting all upset over this I feal that there is a need to implament many programs to better educate. As I read this thread I thaught about Kens interviaew with Katie Prudant and it realy made me realise that we are not the riders we need to be.

I myself as we all know I like to get many views on a topic and I like to be contravercial. But this thread should be seen as a lesson. The lesons we have learned here are ones that better opend our eyes. We have many views here views that set us apart. We need to sit and find a way to instead of being oposed on issues to stand as one and to find a middle ground that all of us can stand on. I remember reading someone say that they had gotten their dover catalogue and for the first time saw those nosebands. Those nosebands have been in there for many years. maby atleast 5 years or more. but only till something is mentioned we do not see these things. I am very much into the view that education is a prioraty and that information on useing these gadgets need to be at hand. DD Im glad to see you are into the more conventional work ways to fix a problem but many people do not poses that understanding and opt for the quick fixes but what we need to do is get back to good old horsemandhip where working hard is a prioraty and trainers train and not push the horse up too fast.

Im going to end this but take this as a lesson that in a fue weeks as this topic dies down go back and read it cause there is shuch a huge lession being displayed here.

Ben and Me

Aug. 31, 2000, 05:23 PM

Hear Hear CTT! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CTT

Aug. 31, 2000, 05:35 PM

Thanks Ben and me

i also have something that I want to say and it has been something that for a long time I hae wanted to say.

Quit worying aboout getting flamed. Take off thhose suits and standup in your belifs. Take everythig for what it is and find othing to hide behind.. Don't be ashamed to voice your opinion even if not everyone agrees. I know I will get flamed from time to time heck I was so skared to post cause if my inabilaty to spell corectly but has that stoped me. NO! has what I have said and not always nicely stoped me from standing outfront and holding my head high? NO! Do I feal anyone else should wory about what they want to say? NO! Heck If some of you find that something is too contraversail go to my BB at HSO and post it thats what that board is for. Nomater what and how harsh it might be that board will not close cause it there for that reason to be contraversial and to be a place for not politicaly proper talk.

What Im getting at is that we need to take off those suiets and balieve in what we type and not beashamed of it. Not evryone will always agree but Who cares. Now Im going to stand here tall and proud of myself and be glad that Im able to say what I truly feal. and everyone else should do the same.

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 05:44 PM

LOL, I guess I won't go order my new flame proof suit CTT, I was thinking about it, after all, my OLD flame suit is not only out of style, it's also starting to burn through in spots /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CTT

Aug. 31, 2000, 05:47 PM

DD Im sure you can find something more gratifyeing to spend that money on. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Lily

Aug. 31, 2000, 05:57 PM

I'll buy you another one, Devildog, if you promise to stick around. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Colin

Aug. 31, 2000, 08:56 PM

Hey -- DD isn't the ONLY one that needs a flame retardant suit! I'm totally hiding here....after this what happened on this thread I started. Geez.....where can we get these suits??? I only need one now! LOL!

Duffy

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:07 PM

Colin - I think you should invest in the Flameproof Booth as well! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Justbay

Aug. 31, 2000, 09:48 PM

All I can say is AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Black Market Radio

Aug. 31, 2000, 10:55 PM

Hey colin, I'll sell you my old one, I am going to bare (and bear) it all and go sans suit from now on. Wanna share my rock? And Lily, don't worry, I am not going anywhere, I have gotten tons of support from people that DO love me LOL!

Hattie

Sep. 1, 2000, 09:11 AM

Taking a big swallow..........GULP. I hesitate to post anymore on topics on this board that deserve discussion. It always appears to me that the mean spirited people come out of the woodwork! What I have learned from some of the people that post here.......................................
1. Since I show at the AHSA rated shows.............then I must be a snobby, shallow, non-horseman
2. Since I wear Grand Prix jackets, TS, and Vogel field boots.............then I must be a snobby, shallow, non-horsman that is only concerned about a fashion show 3. Since I have a trainer either show my horse in a division or have him hop on my horse during the show............then I must be a non-horseman that has no business going to horse shows with my ill prepared horse 4. Since I use earplugs sometimes.......then I must be a non-horseman that has no business going to horse shows with my ill prepared horse.

I love differences of opinion that lead to discussion, however, I absolutely hate it when someone makes a judgement on me and it turns into a nasty "we are better than you thread". It seems that many of these comments come from people that aren't even in the hunter discipline or even show - what gives? I enjoy this sport and know that the GREAT majority of hunter people love, take wonderful care, and are non-abusive to their horses.

So can we start all over again and show respect for each others disciplines? Let's have some good discussions!!

PS - I see this starting on the "kids on ponies" thread - again the battle of the haves and have nots. Everybody is making judgements on kid with grooms. Some people have them so what? I wish I could at times!

Colin

Sep. 1, 2000, 09:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Hey colin, I'll sell you my old one, I am going to bare (and bear) it all and go sans suit from now on. Wanna share my rock? And Lily, don't worry, I am not going anywhere, I have gotten tons of support from people that DO love me LOL!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh DD....I hope you KNOW that I have absolutely NOTHING at all against you!!! You're a tough cookie....and I think that's pretty cool! Seems that we're both hard headed ladies! Ain't nothin' wrong with that!

Blinky

Sep. 1, 2000, 09:39 AM

You know all I can say is this type of thread makes my day more interesting. Just sitting back and reading all the comments. Thanks Colin for helping my week go faster. If you post your opinion here-you should expect opposition-it's America! I enjoy reading others thoughts but do not understand why folks who bash hunters read this section. There are threads dedicated to dressage and eventing.

As far as the noseband-never used one myself but I equate it to the pinch collar I have to occasionally use on my 100 pound Rottweiler. She's had all the training in the world but occasionally "forgets" how strong she is when she sees another dog-hence needs a little reminder. Am I cruel-no, my dog is a member of the family. As I'm sure many posting here look at their horses the same way.

Black Market Radio

Sep. 1, 2000, 10:59 AM

Ok, ONE MORE TIME... I AM SORRY I bashed the hunters, I DID NOT MEAN IT. I WAS HAVING A BAD DAY, and I said things I should not have said and things I did not mean. I DO NOT THINK THAT HUNTERS ARE CRAP AND DRESSAGE RIDERS ARE BETTER. I AM SORRY I AM SORRY I AM SORRY I AM SORRY. Will ANYONE besides Colin, accept my apology? again, I AM SORRY!!! I DID NOT MEAN IT!!! How many different ways do I have to say it? One more time, just for the record, I AM SORRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blinky

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:04 AM

DD-I hope you don't feel what I wrote was directed straight at you-if so, I'm the one to apologize. It was really a blanket statement meant for several people.

Hope you have a great weekend!

Colin

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:08 AM

Devildog -- You have nothing to apologize for. You simply stated your opinion -- sometimes in a very, uh, strong manner, but that is what made it fun! You and I did a great service to the BB readers, DD....and you should be proud! We entertained as well as enlightened readers to two very opposite viewpoints on a topic! Pretty cool, I think!

Black Market Radio

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:10 AM

Alright Colin, I'm with ya! Thanks!

havaklu

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Ok, ONE MORE TIME... I AM SORRY I bashed the hunters, I DID NOT MEAN IT. I WAS HAVING A BAD DAY, and I said things I should not have said and things I did not mean. I DO NOT THINK THAT HUNTERS ARE CRAP AND DRESSAGE RIDERS ARE BETTER. I AM SORRY I AM SORRY I AM SORRY I AM SORRY. Will ANYONE besides Colin, accept my apology? again, I AM SORRY!!! I DID NOT MEAN IT!!! How many different ways do I have to say it? One more time, just for the record, I AM SORRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DD I don't think you need to apologize anymore. It appears that everyone (myself included) appreciates your input.

All I tried (obviously unsucessfully) to do was to point out where you were making statements that were contradictory. If someone caught me in a similar situation I would think "Touche' you got me" and I would try to re-state my point.

Try not to take the posts that grumble about "mean people" personally. Lord knows a number of them are aimed at me and I don't lose any sleep over them.

Remember the written word leaves a lot of room for interpretation based upon the reader's perspective. Lot's of times I think "huh - that's not what I meant" when I see a response.

Canter

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:

PS - I see this starting on the "kids on ponies" thread - again the battle of the haves and have nots. Everybody is making judgements on kid with grooms. Some people have them so what? I wish I could at times!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Hattie my dear, now YOU are doing exactly the same thing that you were complaining about by making this statement! (She said with a wide grin and a wink)

That's not what the discussion on that thread is about at all - it's a debate about little kids growing up at horse shows vs learning at home and how adults can inadvertantly set bad examples for them. (for the time being at least)

[This message has been edited by Canter (edited 09-01-2000).]

Black Market Radio

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:19 AM

havaklu, I appreciate greatly what you wrote. My apology note was actually kinda meant to be funny! I had a VERY horrible day the day everything was going down, you have NO idea how terrible I felt about my horse's mouth, so that touched on a sore spot with me.

I cried when I found out how bad her mouth was. It was only a matter of a couple months where her mouth got that bad, and yes, that is a LONG time, but I have only had the mare a few months, so I really didn't know. I am constantly learning, and learn something new everyday, and I keep it with me and use it often.

havaklu, sometimes I really do enjoy what you have to say, other times I don't. You remind me of a person on the dressage board whom I used to HATE. (Slc, are you reading this?) But now, I really like her and really enjoy her, and understand her. Maybe we can come to the same understanding? I find I actually AGREE with her more now than disagree! I would enjoy it if you e-mailed me, but if you want to protect your anonymousness, you don't have to. BUt be assured I wouldn't let anyone in on your "little secret" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Spunky

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:21 AM

Aren't we all much better friends now than we were before? So Colin, your little prank, besides affording me and others LOTS of entertainment at work /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, and spurring more interesting threads, has resulted in strengthened & some new friendships too! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On all three counts, thanks for brightening my week, everybody!!

Colin

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:24 AM

OMG -- Isn't this BETTER THAN A HALLMARK CARD?

Colin and Devildog holding hands.....

Havaklu dancing around singing.....

It is quite beautiful....and you know what, Spunky, you are VERY RIGHT! Without totally losing it first, and being at our worst, we wouldn't have been able to accept each other the way we have.

Erin should be proud!

havaklu

Sep. 1, 2000, 11:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Colin:
OMG -- Isn't this BETTER THAN A HALLMARK CARD?

Colin and Devildog holding hands.....

Havaklu dancing around singing.....

It is quite beautiful....and you know what, Spunky, you are VERY RIGHT! Without totally losing it first, and being at our worst, we wouldn't have been able to accept each other the way we have.

Erin should be proud!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Colin the thought of me singing is not pretty. I'll hold DD's hand and YOU can dance and sing.

See DD - your post that was meant tounge in cheek flew right over my head. The response you gave about how upset you were over your mare's mouth would have been a perfect first response to my challenge.

Unfortunately I did not know you were having a "bad day" or were feeling "marish" so to speak. We all can be "marish". I think If I were a horse, I'd be in a paddock alone... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Black Market Radio

Sep. 1, 2000, 12:32 PM

Ha ha, you guys are TOO funny! Man, I am SO glad that day is over with, I thought I was going to kill someone! Not having to do with this BB, but the stupid bank for not cooperating with a serious matter, and a WHOLE bunch of other garbage! But now, I'm cool, I'm calm, and all is well!

Twister

Sep. 1, 2000, 12:37 PM

Hattie

Sep. 1, 2000, 12:57 PM

Hey Canter - I went back and reread that thread (trying to avoid it because I was starting to read some spite) - yes I was wrong about the groom thing, I apologize. But what I picked up was the made pony and not-made pony debate that was getting started. It's fine to discuss the merits and disadvantages of this, however, it seems to get some people to say hurtful things. I hope Palisades reads this, my apologies to her - it certainly is an interesting discussion!

Hattie

Sep. 1, 2000, 01:01 PM

Colin - you are right! I have tears in my eyes!!LOL I think this has really cleared the air. I know I feel better! Hunters RULE! Just kidding, couldn't resist, let's get some humor back. Hear me Colin and DD20!!!

Black Market Radio

Sep. 1, 2000, 02:23 PM

Here ya Hattie! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/cool.gif

Spunky

Sep. 1, 2000, 02:25 PM

Love the Hallmark Card, Colin! You should see if they have any openings. . . ! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Duffy

Sep. 1, 2000, 02:53 PM

Gosh - Golly Gee. . .Don't ya'll just have the warm fuzzies!?!?!? PHEW!!!!

Ok - enough of that - just so long as we can still have some FUN!! That's still PART of why we love this BB, isn't it?? LOLOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Colin

Sep. 1, 2000, 02:55 PM

Seems to me that Duffy is "looking for trouble"...LOL!!! Could it be true that our precious Duffy isn't as innocent as she claims to be???

Hummm....?????

xoxo, bets

rusty

Sep. 1, 2000, 04:32 PM

Hey every one /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thanks for the thought provoking entertainment for the last few days. I really needed it.

wtywmn4

Sep. 1, 2000, 06:35 PM

Geeeeeeeeez, someone pleeeeease get the backhoe, my waders are over flowing. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif So Erin, does this mean that Colin now gets 4 gold stars???

Colin

Sep. 2, 2000, 09:13 PM

Isn't it "touching" Wynn....better than any Hallmark Moment I can remember! Just simply "beautiful"!

DD is definately my new favorite!!! What a Lady!

Erin....aren't you "impressed"?????

You should take this opportunity to be the "nice girl"...and "Praise us!!!" Instead of always having to be the mean one!! LOL!

xoxoxo, betsy

Black Market Radio

Sep. 2, 2000, 10:40 PM

Colin, you are WAY too funny! Can't everyone just feel the love on this thread /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

magpie

Sep. 3, 2000, 12:01 PM

ok has anyone here heard of SPURS or a STICK????? these are also training devices, and they really get the job done - if any of you criticizing chain nosebands have never used spurs or a stick, then feel free to criticize.

Colin

Sep. 3, 2000, 04:29 PM

Magpie...we are "love festing" right now! No talk of training aids such as spurs, sticks, chain nosebands, draw reins, and ear bunnies. To each their own. Some of us agree with it, some of us don't, but we've changed the "mood" of this thread to a loving Hallmark Card, right DD??? It's much more enjoyable that way!

Hattie

Sep. 3, 2000, 05:16 PM

I think DD20 is hiding after that earthquake there today. And she said she would rather live where there are earthquakes instead of hurricanes!!!Hmph! LOL Seriously, hope she is OK. I too am full of love!!

Black Market Radio

Sep. 3, 2000, 06:23 PM

Earthquake? What earthquake? Was there an earthquake here? I didn't feel it!

wtywmn4

Sep. 3, 2000, 07:18 PM

So DD, a 5.2 and you slept thru it?? Napa isn't that far....

Black Market Radio

Sep. 3, 2000, 08:17 PM

I guess I DID sleep through it because I didn't feel a thing, however, I just found out it woke my mom up! And magpie, I could get into the differences between a whip and a chain noseband, but I am with Colin, we are all about love, happiness, singing and dancing right now. And by the way, I don't use spurs now, and in the upper levels of dressage spurse aren't for training, they are for VERY subtle cues and used with the lightest touch. Excessive whipping and spurring is a huge no-no in my opinion.

rusty

Sep. 3, 2000, 08:43 PM

Having lived through both earthquakes and hurricanes I am with DD on this one. I would much rather live in a place that has earth quakes than hurrcanes. Not putting down places that have hurricanes just picking my natural disasters. This earth quake wasn't that bad, but then I didn't have any problems because of it. It probably seemed worse to those that had some damage.

Oh well enough about earth quakes I 'll let this thread go back to the hall mark card format. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hattie

Sep. 3, 2000, 09:48 PM

Rusty and DD20 are crazy Californians! DD20 won't admit it, but she wants to move to Texas to get away from the natural disasters!

DMK

Sep. 3, 2000, 09:48 PM

Rusty, don't go there! Just see the Hurricane thread... we southeasterners are pretty firmly in favor of hurricanes over earthquakes - never been caught on a freeway bridge during rush hour when hurricane hits /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As we say, I prefer Land of Big Wind over Shaking Ground anyday!!!

[This message has been edited by DMK (edited 09-04-2000).]

rusty

Sep. 3, 2000, 10:40 PM

Texas is where I lived when I experienced hurricanes.

Black Market Radio

Sep. 3, 2000, 11:35 PM

Again, we don't have "earthquake season" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but really, in Texas where I would have lived, there are probably tornados, and I DEFINANTLY don't want that! Hey, we should start a "Cali Clique"...

rusty

Sep. 3, 2000, 11:47 PM

Sure. Then every one can get upset with us as well as Colins Va Clique. I had to mention her, after all she started this thread. Not to for get you DD were also involved. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Astraled

Sep. 4, 2000, 12:15 AM

I'll take earthquakes *any* day. 5.2? Wake me when it gets to 7 or so <yawn>.

dublin

Sep. 4, 2000, 12:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by astraled:
I'll take earthquakes *any* day. 5.2? Wake me when it gets to 7 or so <yawn>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same here! Didn't even know about the quake until we got an e-mail about it from some friends in Germany, of all places. It takes one like the one we had in 1989, which made for an interesting start to the World Series, to get Northern Californians' attention!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

C&C

Sep. 4, 2000, 06:35 AM

Alright Cal Clique... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Do you guys ever hear rumbling noises and instantly think e-quake only to find out later it was a big truck or something outside?? 23 years in SoCal has me trained to think e-quake, but I have to admit I've slept right through some major ones! They don't even phase me anymore. Now hurricanes is another matter and I'm definately afraid of tornados...what if you don't wake up and it rips down your house??? LOL! So I'm wondering, if Colin can be part of the VA Clique from the West can a native Californian that lives out East be part of the Cal Clique??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wtywmn4

Sep. 4, 2000, 08:46 AM

Channel you are always a calif. first & foremost...Doesn't matter where you live. That is so weird, cus I am terrified of tornados too. Would take any earthquake over them! 5's wake me, other than that, nite nite.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So DD, are you starting the Calif. clique thread, LOL.

whoa horsey

Sep. 5, 2000, 11:10 PM

Okay, am I the only one who believes that ANY piece of equipment can be cruel and harsh if used improperly by the rider? Regarding bike chain bits, I would like to clarify. A bike chain bit does resemble the links of a bike chian but it ain't off your Granny's Schwinn!! And yes, there may or may not be protruding nubs or blunt spikes that lay across the bars and tongue of the horses mouth. But believe me, this bit is meant to be used in the hands of a MASTER!! It is a transitional training aid meant to bring back a hard mouth. One occasion this may be neccesary is in the case of a mature English Pleasure horse who is so hard in the mouth that it is running through the bridle. now remember, hard mouths are caused by hard hands. The bike chain bit is used with the LIGHTEST of hands, not with jerks or yanks and certainly not with seesawing it through the mouth. With gentle even give and take, the horse inflicts self punishment by pulling against the bit and in a short matter of time learns that it is better to soften the poll and jaw than to run against a pressure that is no longer there, namely the hard hands. It takes two to tug-of-war soit is vital that the rider release pressure a millasecond after the horse hits the bit. As the horse begins to respond and soften, the bit is interchanged with more conventional bits, thus making hte horse a useful and safe mount again. And yes it is possible that the horse can pull very hard and possibly cause small puncturing of its gums, but only if the hands don't give or pull against the horse. That is exactly why this bit is meant for the true master trainer, not some amateur or crack pot trainer who has too much testosterone to burn. (or estrogen for that matter) this chain noseband runs along the same principle, to gain the horses attention through pressure, not neccesarily pain. once, the rider has the horse's attention, such suggestions as suppling the back, bringing under the hindquarters and the like can be worked on. But if this rider who started the post is having such trouble that her horse is totally ignoring conventional cues, it has long become a habit of avoidance. I don't think the horse is being annoying, but I do think the horse is avoiding. I also agree that the horse should be checked for back pain, stifle or hock pain, possible teeth pain. But I venture a guess that if the introduction of a self punishing chain noseband is enough to keep the horse from avoiding and gets him back to learning and focusing to the rider, chances are he isn't in pain. So stop flinging the mud at our poor VAT for an equipment choice. Lets not forget that often times when a horse makes a mistake it is because the horse is trying desperately to do exactly what we told it to do, inadvertently or not!!