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Tripleoxer
May. 16, 2001, 07:55 AM
I have to post this due to the fact that the exhibitor is once again being unfairly taken advantage of. This past weekend it cost me $43 before I went into the ring.. Per horse!
$15 - office fee (are they not part of the horse show?)
$15 - grounds fee (oh yeah... they didn't own the facility)
$8 - drug fee (I didn't get any!)
$5 - AHJF Relief Fund (I would have rather donated to Red Cross... When I get older I will have to scheme my own "non-profit" organization, so that I can retire!)
Before you know it there will be a judges fee... stewards fee... in-gate keepers fee... jump crew fee.. Jump rental fee... schooling area fee... medic fee... vet fee (even if you don't have to see him)...
I almost forgot... I never mentioned the $50 late fee charged to someone who had purchased a pony a few days after the closing date... Was it that much of an inconvienince to add a pony and take their money on entry fees? $50?? They make money on the shavings you buy, the stalls you rent, and the hay and feed you buy. They havn't figured out how to charge for water yet but they will. Maybe I should be greatful that they didn't charge me to park there...
It is an evil vicious cirle. They(Show Managers) all smile at one another because they are all taking our money. Somehow they try to justify it all. Why do we take it? I am not asking for anything free but don't rape us! Maybe we need a recession in the economy to make them wake up...

Tripleoxer
May. 16, 2001, 07:55 AM
I have to post this due to the fact that the exhibitor is once again being unfairly taken advantage of. This past weekend it cost me $43 before I went into the ring.. Per horse!
$15 - office fee (are they not part of the horse show?)
$15 - grounds fee (oh yeah... they didn't own the facility)
$8 - drug fee (I didn't get any!)
$5 - AHJF Relief Fund (I would have rather donated to Red Cross... When I get older I will have to scheme my own "non-profit" organization, so that I can retire!)
Before you know it there will be a judges fee... stewards fee... in-gate keepers fee... jump crew fee.. Jump rental fee... schooling area fee... medic fee... vet fee (even if you don't have to see him)...
I almost forgot... I never mentioned the $50 late fee charged to someone who had purchased a pony a few days after the closing date... Was it that much of an inconvienince to add a pony and take their money on entry fees? $50?? They make money on the shavings you buy, the stalls you rent, and the hay and feed you buy. They havn't figured out how to charge for water yet but they will. Maybe I should be greatful that they didn't charge me to park there...
It is an evil vicious cirle. They(Show Managers) all smile at one another because they are all taking our money. Somehow they try to justify it all. Why do we take it? I am not asking for anything free but don't rape us! Maybe we need a recession in the economy to make them wake up...

halfhalt
May. 16, 2001, 08:00 AM
Spruce Meadows' is $500....!

DMK
May. 16, 2001, 08:02 AM
If you really want to get depressed, try showing at PBPCC the same weekend as a QH show, only to learn that they pay about 75% what you did for the SAME stall, never mind the fact that they didn't pay all those other fees, and their classes cost less, and oops, they could ALL win money back - not just certain divisions.

JellyBean
May. 16, 2001, 08:13 AM
Isn't it awful. I just pre-entered for a show and I'm only going in 3 classes. The "misc" fees are just as much as my total class fees.
A bit ridiculous I think. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

tle
May. 16, 2001, 08:32 AM
The same arguments are found in Eventing. Everyone yells about any increase in any fee. As the friend of an organizer, if you don't like it organize your own D@MN show! If you haven't organized anything, shut the h#ll up. You haven't a clue what it takes to organize and how much money it costs. What, do you want the organizer to pay all their "hard" expenses like grounds rental and stall rental, etc. and NOT get "paid" for all the time they put into it? Who do you think calls the judges, or fills out all the paperwork, or arranges to have the porta potties delivered?

Give them a break! (flame suit donned)

Van Teal
May. 16, 2001, 08:38 AM
You silly goose, the $5.00 AHJF was optional, and yes I did NOT pay it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I agree that the "extra" fees are starting to be a bit much, and I won't show at some shows in NJ where the adults are as much as the A/O's with the late fee added on. Unless it's a major AA I don't pre-enter much, it's not worth the hassle of scratching vet cert etc. Hey, maybe my horse/me is having a bad day/week and is not ready, since they are always green ones, you just can't always plan ahead /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tripleoxer
May. 16, 2001, 08:45 AM
Man... You have some issues! LOL We can help! We are here for you man!
1.) have a beer
2.) deep breath
3.) Sex... definately some good sex

After you do all of the above.. talk to me! Chill dude!

tle
May. 16, 2001, 08:51 AM
No... no issues here other than the fact that I hear complaints like yours all the time and you just hit me at a bad time.

Can I still have the beer? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I won't get into the sex issue simply because I have a feeling you think I'm a guy...

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 08:53 AM
Sorry TLE, a lot of people are making fortunes off of horse shows. It is definitely an interesting business that can charge you weeks of stall fees because you sent your entries in on time and found out later that you couldn't go for whatever reason (horse lame, etc.). Hundreds of dollars received for absolutely no service rendered? Please. The fees really do get out of hand, too. I realize that it is expensive to run a horse show, but it is also ultimately profitable (sometimes VERY much so) unless the show is crappy and nobody comes. Just my thoughts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kachoo
May. 16, 2001, 09:00 AM
Ack! You think you have it bad! I'm going to add to what Halfhalt says about Spruce Meadows entries and say that they are absolutely obscene! To enter one horse in the jr/am jumpers of the National is C$1000 (and this is with no tackroom and in the cheap-o stabling. If you want a tackroom, the least costly one is C$700, and let's not even talk about how it much is to try and get out of tent stabling). I'm sure that it costs tons to organize and run these huge shows, but no one's going to convince me that they aren't making a bomb off of us in return! Unfortunately, these shows are the best, biggest, and have the highest riding standards all year, so everyone in the area still keeps shelling it out . . .

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

Weatherford
May. 16, 2001, 09:02 AM
Or how about when you send your stall fees in and realize you have to scratch before THEY HAVE EVEN RECEIVED THEM /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And you call immediately and request they simply NOT PROCESS YOUR ENTRY!

Are you kidding? They certainly didn't process the entry, but they sure as h#ll cashed the check, ignored phone calls and fax, and SOLD THE STALLS AGAIN! (Tent was full!!!)

Rip off artists of the highest degree.

I will NEVER go back to one of their shows. At ANY of their locations. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 09:11 AM
Wow, Weatherford, I think we were dealing with the same people. The EXACT same thing happened to me. I was going to start a thread about it, but haven't yet because my little tiff has yet to end. Anyway, I was supposed to go to two different circuits last winter and found out after my entries were sent in (but unquestionably before they had received them via snail mail) that I couldn't go to either. The one circuit couldn't have been nicer. When they received my entries and check, they called me and were even nice enough to ask if I wanted my check ripped up or RETURNED to me! They were willing to even send it back to make sure I had peace of mind! The other circuit just said too bad. Um, hello? They didn't even HAVE the entries yet when they said that! How hard would it be to just put my name on a sticky and throw away my envelope? We're talking almost $1000 here, and I don't have that kind of money to throw away. Anyway, there's a whole additional saga that I'll share on that one but it's not done yet. Needless to say, I will do my best to avoid them from now on. The problem is that the better shows can get away with it if they want to be jerks because they also pay attention to footing, etc. It's very disturbing. (Gosh, this got long...sorry! Pet peeve of mine.) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 09:13 AM
By the way, Weatherford, since you mentioned that there are multiple locations run by this company...and seeing where you are in the country...I think we are talking about the same people. Very interesting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Tripleoxer
May. 16, 2001, 09:14 AM
See! I knew I could help! The beer is on my tab... The sex thing... well I am married (to my wife) and most of my friends are gay men... so I can't help you there. It is impossible to find a heterosexual man at the hunter ring, let alone a single one! I am sure that you will do fine though! PEACE!!! LOL

halfhalt
May. 16, 2001, 09:20 AM
the Brandon Winter Fair. Last year, we sent in our fees on time, but 2 weeks before the show was to go, we decided that it horse and rider weren't ready to go. I contacted the office not because I expected any money back (the horse wasn't lame) but just to let them know so they could let someone in from the waiting list....imagine my surprise when, 2 months later, i receive a cheque with virtually the entire entry fee returned....! Now, it might have helped that we have been attending this show regularly for a number of years and weren't the type to enter on a whim and then try to withdraw later, but still, wasn't that super of them?

May. 16, 2001, 09:20 AM
My parents run an "A2" show, that I will take over someday. Some of the "fees" mentioned are required by the AHSA. Did anyone know that they now require canisters for "medical items--ie.needles" located by every trash-can on the grounds??? I thought we weren't supposed to be sticking our horses?

Not all shows do what has been mentioned, and the true horse-people running such shows only make what they earn.

People need to pick and choose their shows, and stay away from those that "rape" them. There are decent "A" rated shows out there that are run by people who care... JMO

Celtic Witch
May. 16, 2001, 09:55 AM
Running a horse trials and running a horse show are vastly different. Anymore, you're going to pay about the same for an A show division as you are for a USCTA division, stalls vary. At the horse trials I worked at, we made $10 a stall on that fee (and only because the local feed store would donate first bed).

Everyone here has a right to bitch. New fees keep cropping up for AHSA hunter/jumper shows while other organizations manage to run similar shows at the same grounds for significantly less.

Its generally a good idea to make sure you've got all your bases covered before you leap down someone's throat.

nelson
May. 16, 2001, 10:20 AM
Well, at least you were GOOD at the show this past weekend! Imagine if you hadn't done well, then the fees would seem like an even bigger tragedy! By the way, I'm the one who sqeaked above your score in the last class . . . You were still good though! :-)

NancyL
May. 16, 2001, 10:28 AM
I love being charged a "schooling fee" and a "jumper nomination" fee.

What is a jumper nomination fee (besides an extra way to discourage entries)? They don't have a "hunter nomination" fee! They both use the jumps!

tle
May. 16, 2001, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Running a horse trials and running a horse show are vastly different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duh. However, things STILL cost money and many people spend countless hours getting the job done.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Everyone here has a right to bitch. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'll give you that one. But exactly what does bitching about it do?! Nothing! If you want to do something, talk to the organizers. If they won't listen or you aren't happy with the answer, then boycott the show! I've done that... there's an event an hour from my home that I don't go to because I think their entry fees are too high for the event, so I go somewhere else. Yes, people have a *right* to bitch... but what's the point? Nothing ever got fixed by someone standing around bitching about it. Stop bitching and DO something to fix the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Its generally a good idea to make sure you've got all your bases covered before you leap down someone's throat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And unless that someone is you, I suggest that you mind your own business and let people fight their own battles. Tripleoxer and I have already "made up" and I have apologized for jumping in the way I did. However, I still stand by my statements 100%. the other points are taken, but please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not know.

AWIP
May. 16, 2001, 10:43 AM
Did no-one think of stating that "since the entry was not yet received, please consider my entry void as I am cancelling the check." ???

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 10:49 AM
Uh, yeah, I did that after my requests and calls were continually ignored and got smacked with a suspension warning from the AHSA due to unpaid entries. Told you more details were pending. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

brilyntrip
May. 16, 2001, 10:54 AM
I think I know who you might be talikng about and that is one of the biggest reasons IA don't go there any more!I'd rather go to a show that is glad that I entered .

DMK
May. 16, 2001, 11:03 AM
Oh yes, I think we ALL might know who triple crown and weatherford are talking about /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I like to refer to them as "Shows R Us" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As SM pointed out, there are horse show managers who try to give the exhibitors something for their money, and then there is that other variety. I make an effort to support the ones who do it right, and not the other variety, but that little thing known as the mileage rule can make that a daunting task!

But tle - I know people are only trying to make money, and I never begrudge them that... but come on! You are at Wellington paying $115 for a stall (it was a few years ago) and the AQHA people are only paying $60 and you are IN THE SAME BARN?!?! That is not a matter of fair price - that is somewhere just after reprehensible and before usury...

AWIP
May. 16, 2001, 11:16 AM
No normal business would ever be allowed to demand full price when no services were rendered at all. Cancellation penalty - fine, reuse entry at next show - fine The way we do it is not fine and the AHSA/CEF are the only reason shows get away with it

Janet
May. 16, 2001, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry TLE, a lot of people are making fortunes off of horse shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is one major difference between horse shows and events. We (non profit organization) will be lucky if we clear $5k on a CCI. And that is INCLUDING sponsorships. And entry fees that are considered high (stabling is included, not separated out).

Almost nobody except the officials gets paid. I was up till 3AM last night trying to organize a subset of the (well over 100 total) volunteers. And I am still short about 10 volunteers for cross country.

Dennis M
May. 16, 2001, 11:57 AM
I thought the show mentioned by TripleOxer was very well run and the management and office staff to be very considerate.

I attended this past weekend with my wife and child (the rider). When we asked what the fees for for they explained them and I am very happy to say that I gave the $5 for the AHJF Relief Fund. What a great way to support those equestrians that are self employed. Plus they said that any person is eligible for relief, they do not have to be a member of any organization!

Additionally, I can say that my wife walked away from the office with a flower for Mother's Day. Not a big deal, but it made her day that someone else remembered!

Of the fees that were mentioned, I only see the office fee as one that the show actually keeps and since they were speedy and efficent, I don't think that is too much to ask considering all the stuff they must have to do. I can only imagine!

I will admit that a $50 late fee is high, but that only seems to encourage people to enter on time, especially since there was not a scratch fee if done before the show started.

I am glad we went last week, but will not be going to the one this week. When they called and told me that as I had not sent a check with the entries I would be charged a late fee, we decided that we didn't need to take our business there and would go somewhere else. Paying ahead is not a big deal, but the way it was handled bothered me, plus it was like pulling teeth to get a prize list!!

My advice, is if you do not like the fees, etc that a show charges tell them and then DONT go back. Nothing hits a business more than losing customers and that is what many horse shows are these days, a business. It is run by people trying to make a profit. Many put on a good show and for them I consider my money well spent, but for the ones that just do the minimum, I do not return and most of the time, I tell them why. Some have listened and we have returned, but if they don't know why you left they don't know what they could fix.

Plus with the numbers I saw showing all weekend, I don't think that the fees kept many away!

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 12:03 PM
DMK, I totally agree. I am going to do my best to never go to one of their shows again. However, they have a bit of a monopoly in winter, for example. What if your horse just isn't ready to go out onto the GP field in West Palm? Gulfport has now started, so there's another option, but...choices are limited at times. So they get away with it.

AWIP, I also agree. I totally would have understood a cancellation penalty, etc. I was actually wondering if this sort of thing would hold up in court. I just don't have the money to pursue it, unfortunately. Even without the courts, just from anyone's reasonable perspective, it is just ridiculous to expect money for absolutely nothing. (Especially that much money!!!! And especially when I cancelled BEFORE they got my entry!!!!) I just hope that enough people have bad experiences with them that they are forced to cater to customers better. (I didn't need my MBA to understand that the number one focus of any business should be the customer!)

To make my particular situation even worse, I have been a LONGTIME customer of their shows, have never entered and scratched that I can remember except a time or two when a horse went lame AT the show, and I've known them on a slightly more personal level for a really long time! I mean, it's not like we're best friends, but...

Boy, this subject really gets me going, huh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2Dogs
May. 16, 2001, 01:09 PM
now even I know who you are talking about and can laugh at last about being at one of "those" shows where, after spending a good several thousand dollars for the week, went to the "exhibitors" party put on by the manager only to find that I had to pay $5.00 for a glass of lousy wine. Yipes!!!

However, as long as we stay a captive audience, nothing will change; sooo, seems to me that one of the tools to use is to lift the MILEAGE rule! As long as the managers can lock in shows and times, they will get the customers. Start a little competition, and things might change (let's apply some free market strategies.....). Meanwhile, I for one am going to enter my "jumper" in the hunters to protest a nominating fee for AA classes. What the heck... And for those who don't know, the nominating fee is the help pay for the "prize money".

DMK
May. 16, 2001, 01:48 PM
Triple crown - I too had to cancel before the entry was received and before the entry closing date. I didn't expect any money for my troubles, but I told the trainer to make damn sure the stall didn't get resold!!!! Told him to camp out in it or otherwise hold a party, make it a grooming stall, whatever - but the show wasn't going to have it paid for TWICE! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jumphigh83
May. 16, 2001, 01:52 PM
They pick our pockets because we let them. You can't "hurt" the super wealthy so to them the fee thing is a petty annoiance (sp?) To us, it could mean going to that next show or staying home! I agree that shows are almighty greedy. And sorry TLE I think you are HIGHLY overreacting to the discussion. Eventing isn't the HUGE busines that H/J is and there is still a spirit of vounteerism in that community that doesn't exist in the H/J world. I agree it takes money to run shows but there is profit and then there is usuary. I admit I am one of the pathetic sheep following the herd becasue I enjoy horse showing. I wish there was a way to "level the playing field" (a WAY over used euphamism) but unfortunately in horse shows as in life...it sometimes just isn't fair! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Betsy

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 01:57 PM
DMK, I love the way you think! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Hey, did you like my subtle hint about which circuit I was talking about? LOL).


Is that mileage rule ever going to go away, or what? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Celtic Witch
May. 16, 2001, 02:26 PM
Have you had a chat with the AHSA about this? Unless there was a closing date you should get a large percentage of your money back if nothing else. I would be expecting a refund check.

I know this was horse trials and therefore different, but on several occasions I recieved calls from would-be competitors to say they wouldn't be able to make it but had just posted the entry. Would I send it back? Their entry was flagged, only opened to confirm, and sent back unprocessed. My only cost was the stamp. I could have easily processed them and kept the $25 fee (and have been within the rules to do so). We always thought repeat customers were a better idea. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Beezer
May. 16, 2001, 02:34 PM
My personal "favorite": the organizer of county shows out here who charges a mandatory "schooling fee" for the day before the show ... even if you were NOT there! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif As in, there's a warm-up day Thursday or Friday; you get charged for that even if you trailered in on the Sunday and didn't set hoof on the grounds on the warm-up day.

Yes, folks (us included /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) argue with her endlessly over this. Her latest rebuttal: Well, you used the warm-up ring today, didn't you? So the fee applies to your use of the warm-up ring. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Which is why we do everything we can to avoid going to her shows.

Frankly, I'd much rather pay more per class than be fee'd to death. There is nothing more irritating than to go pay your check and realize that you've paid more in various fees than in actual ENTRY fees.

[This message was edited by Beezer on May. 16, 2001 at 05:43 PM.]

Triple Crown
May. 16, 2001, 02:49 PM
CW, I could opt for an AHSA hearing, but I'd have to pay ANOTHER $100. Now, I get that back if I win, but I lose it if I don't. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Basically, I don't know. I think they've got me. It does say in the prize list that stall fees are non-refundable and you can get only 50% of nominating fees back. By the time they added on scratch fees, blah blah blah, it ended up being much more expensive than even the original cost. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Anyway, there was a closing date...the exact scenario is that I postmarked my entries on time, and I then found out I had to scratch before they received the entry but technically after the close date (by like a day or something).

It just makes me never want to send my entries in on time, but I get tired of paying late fees, too!

Blue Devil
May. 16, 2001, 02:54 PM
I just thought I'd bring up the fact that at an A-3 show (I guess they're just AA shows now) the $250 children's hunter division entry fee (for that C rated division) was more than the $1,000 small junior hunter division entry fee (A rated division)...

since when can they charge MORE to win less money and not be even A rated division in the first place?!?! AHHH

**~~Emily~~** proud member of the junior clique!

Jumphigh83
May. 16, 2001, 03:07 PM
Becasue there are MORE childrens hunters than Junior hunters... Becasue they CAN!

Betsy

Smiles
May. 16, 2001, 03:49 PM
NANCYL point out something that I can never understand why they have this. Nominating fees for jumpers? Ok not all jumpers just child/adult, jr/ao, and grandprix. What training and modified are jumper divison why are they exempted??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Let see $125 for a weeks stall imagine if you were charged this for your board. Then all those office fees $100 to $150 there. Shaving $70 a weekend. Nominating fee $150 for that. Hmmm what am I up to so far and I haven't even add in a divison yet. Oh over $400 bucks. Do you think we aren't getting taken??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Weatherford
May. 16, 2001, 07:18 PM
Email me, please. We could take up a collection for the $100...

Thanks.

By the way, the reason I did not stop payment on the check was because I was pretty sure I would get suspended or soemthing.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Small Star
May. 16, 2001, 08:10 PM
Some of your show fees cost more than my Horse did. I mean not the one I just bought the one I had. She only costed 800 dollars. She is awsome and can even place in hunter classes as an arab w/a judge that hates arabs. HE HE I'm too lucky!! I spent 2500 dollars on the TB I just bought and I think that's a lot of money. It's gonna take me 3 years of detaseling to pay her off. Ugh!

~Small Star~

-Speed's my thing, pain
my game, sports my
life-

Tripleoxer
May. 16, 2001, 09:42 PM
Hey thanks for whooping one me! I need it to keep things in perspective. My first trip down the line to the scoreboard was pathetic... I couldn't figure out why I was swerving left and right and then to an immediate halt until I circled to see the board lit up and then I put on the gas! Hey, Can we do battle again this week? See ya there and good luck.
Chris

AAJumper
May. 16, 2001, 09:43 PM
NancyL, I totally agree with you! I get completely irked that I have to pay a $50 jumper nominating fee at some shows. And surprisingly, HITS doesn't charge one for the lower level jumpers! Blenheim EquiSports doesn't either, and they put on all the Blenheim/Oaks and Showpark shows. But LAEC charges $50...so annoying. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

nelson
May. 17, 2001, 05:35 AM
I will not be there this week. My trainer's sister is getting married on Saturday. So, while all you guys are showing, we will be drinking, dancing and partying like crazy.

But, good luck to you and I am sure we will meet again to duke it out!

Smiles
May. 17, 2001, 05:51 AM
Ahh AAJUMPER $50 bucks seems nice compared to the $150 we get charged. Hmmm maybe I should do just training and modified. Then I would get charged that fee at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Celtic Witch
May. 17, 2001, 06:13 AM
They get you coming and going.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Basically, I don't know. I think they've got me. It does say in the prize list that stall fees are non-refundable and you can get only 50% of nominating fees back. By the time they added on scratch fees, blah blah blah, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's ridiculous. I agree with Weatherford. I'd donate towards the $100. I wonder what would happen if your lawyer sent them a letter? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

-Susie

Jumphigh83
May. 17, 2001, 06:30 AM
The PS to all the freakin fees etc is that there is NO MONEY paid back in the childrens or adult jumpers!!! Not even an add back! Soooo kiss it all goodbye!

Betsy

Michelle Mc
May. 17, 2001, 06:38 AM
1. Read the prize list.
2. If you don't agree with the costs or can't afford it, don't go.
3. Stop complaining.
4. Try running your OWN show or event. TRY IT.



I read so much garbage about how expensive are the show fees.
Why not complain about the price of gasoline or diesel fuel? Is THAT caused by the show managers?
Did you complain your AHSA dues increased? Haven't seen THAT mentioned (wait until you see the 2002 costs!).
How about the price of board? Electricity? Hotel rooms? Dog Food? Purina raised it's prices. Any threads on THAT?

The per-hour fees in our office just increased 10% - some attornies are making $500/hour here. Let's chat about that, huh? Is that Stadium Jumping's fault? HITS? Classic Company? PSG? haha

And back to the $5 fee that started the whole thread. I gave that fund $2000 last year. I wish I could have done 20K. Hopefully you or your family will never need assistance from that organization.

tle
May. 17, 2001, 06:46 AM
thank you! Nice to know someone else gets my point.

BTW, you forgot to mention the price of hay, cable tv, movies, veterinary charges, trucks and trailers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif About the only thing that ISN'T going up is the amount on my paycheck!!

Jumphigh83
May. 17, 2001, 06:51 AM
Michelle I think you are missing the point. What if your dentist charged you a receptionist fee? Or an anesthetic fee? Or a chair use fee? That would be rediculous. What it costs to run a business should be built into the charges levied on those involved. Of course it is expensive! I don't give my boarders a "hay tax" when the cost of hay skyrocketed this year. I don't charge a fuel costs rising fee when I ship horses. It isn;t paying that is the problem, it is being nickled and dimed to death that IS the problem! I did run a horse show (local B rated) until it bacame cost prohibative. Rather than charge a fee for this and a fee for that when we DID have the show, we built those expenses into the entry money. It is true that money makes money but you have succeeded in missing the point.

Betsy

tle
May. 17, 2001, 07:40 AM
No, I think Michelle (and me) understand perfectly. So what you're saying is that you would rather see a prize list that says that the entry fee is $500 (for example), instead of seeing one that says the entry fee is only $350, but you also must pay a $50 grounds fee, a $25 office fee, a $25 schooling fee, a $30 drug testing fee, etc.

So exactly what difference does it make? You end up paying $500 either way. Michelle's point is that whether you break it out into "fees" or stick with simply paying once, you're still having to pay... so what's all the complaining about (Michelle, please correct me if I'm wrong).

BTW, the only reason that the dentist doesn't charge you a receptionist fee, etc. is because you would take your business elsewhere... hmmm... interesting thought, isn't it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Triple Crown
May. 17, 2001, 08:26 AM
I don't know, TLE and Michelle Mc. All those fees weren't always there. There is no question that holding a horse show is expensive, but I think a lot of show managers have found that they can charge for pretty much whatever and people will pay. BECAUSE, as TLE said, people don't go elsewhere because there just aren't too many options. (Back to my winter circuit example above somewhere.)

Also, I think everyone should be free to express their opinions on this matter. This board is for discussion.

Triple Crown
May. 17, 2001, 08:32 AM
CelticWitch, I have thought about that. I'm really not sure what to do!

VTrider
May. 17, 2001, 10:12 AM
Two things....

1. Tripleoxer - welcome back and THANK YOU for your great sense of humor. You and TeriKessler must be friends. Thank you for having me in stitches! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

2. Why does HITS charge me $25 to haul my horse in for the day - to be there a total of two hours? A friend of mine walks her horse to the Culpeper show grounds - do you think they charge her a $25 grounds fee? I don't get it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And another thing...

As so well put by DMK...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I didn't expect any money for my troubles, but I told the trainer to make damn sure the stall didn't get resold!!!! Told him to camp out in it or otherwise hold a party, make it a grooming stall, whatever - but the show wasn't going to have it paid for TWICE! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

cranston
May. 17, 2001, 10:28 AM
This post hits home! Here's how I deal with the high costs. I have a horse that I show in the low A/O jumpers. I paid $900 for the horse off of the track. My trainers know my rule for horse shows: if entries (stall, nomination fee, entries, classics, office fees, etc exceed the original purchase price of my horse, don't bother showing me the prize list cause I'm not going! I'm not intending to flame the horse shows in any way - I work on the committee of our local A2 horse show, so I know what the costs are, but I just cannot justify spending that much money on a horse show, so either I don't go, or I do the unrecognized jumper divisions and still get to show but at a fraction of the cost.

nelson
May. 17, 2001, 11:20 AM
I think another important point that you are missing is this (and it has been made already here on this thread): Those of us (like Tripleoxer and myself) that do the 3 foot C-rated hunters get raped with the same fees as those who do the A-rated hunters, but we NEVER see a dime of our money back!!! Ever!!! We literally finance these other divisions and get none of the same perks that they do - the best rings on the grounds, A-rated recognotion and points, cash prizes, etc. etc. We are lucky if we even get our names announced at some shoes!!

And before you flame me saying that I should just do the A/O hunters instead of the A/As if I want those perks, know this: I CAN NEVER do the A/O hunters with my horse because I own him jointly with another person to whom I am not related. So, as a consequence, the idiotic A/O rule prevents me from showing him in the A/Os.

Thanks for indulging my rant . . .

DMK
May. 17, 2001, 12:27 PM
I guess the bottom line is I will never know if the $35 fee to get my program at WEF or the scratch fee on top of the forfeit of stall fee that I pay at HITS is an absolute necessity and reasonable profit margin for a horse show manager because the free market forces are NOT at work here. It's not like Nordies competing with Macy's for the same demographic, folks!

The mileage rule eliminates any chance of a competing show and a little healthy economics. Maybe a horse show can be run at 80% of the current costs, but no one here can say that for sure, because until you have to start looking for ways to attract/keep your customer base in the face of competition, you will NOT be looking for those lean & mean management methods... Adam Smith, anyone?

As for the mileage rule, there may well be valid reasons to keep it place - it may serve the greater good, but it does restrict free market competition.

ponymom138
May. 17, 2001, 12:47 PM
Still no explanation of the jumper nomination fee. I have been very curious what that is for. My daughter does children's jumpers which usually do not have this fee but when she moves to jrs there it is and it is not cheap. Now at some shows (i.e. the PJA for those from PA) there is a nom fee for childrens but the class fees are $10,no problem, but our trainor suggested a show in NJ where including fees and reqs(must do class 7 to do class 9 etc.) the total to do 3 classes was almost $400.We were at the show that originated the post and I must admit I thought it was well run. Things ran pretty much on time, people were polite and I too got my carnation!We will be there this weekend also, so for those that decided not to show I'll let you know how it compares. Now tell me about those nomination fees?

Portia
May. 17, 2001, 01:40 PM
Sounds like we have "kinder, gentler" shows in our area. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

First, nobody around here ever sends in actual entry fees with their advance entries, just the stabling and office fees, jumper nomination fees if applicable, sometimes the AHSA fees, and maybe pay for the shavings. We only pay the entry fees at the end of the show when we cash out.

We really don't have such things as "scratch fees" as long as you scratch before the class starts.

We have late fees, but sometimes if the prize lists get mailed late or something, we just call up our favorite show secretary and explain and she'll say, "just get me the entry in ASAP, don't worry about it." Her concern is mostly just knowing how many horses she has coming and from what barns so she can arrange stabling.

When I entered Pin Oak (an AA show) last year and paid the jumper nom fee in advance, then ended up scratching the division that required the nomination, they gave me full credit for the amount I paid as the nomination fee and applied it to my other fees.

I think I'll be telling our Texas "A" show managers thanks for being good to us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

On the jumper nomination fees, they help pay for the increased prize money in the classes for which the fee is paid. I don't know how they decide sometimes which classes require the fee, but in the prize lists I've seen and shows I've shown the jumpers, the ones that required nomination are always the ones that have significantly more money than just the add-backs. The ones that don't require nomination fees, like schooling and training jumpers, child/adult, and sometimes modified, only have the add-back as prize money.

Peggy
May. 17, 2001, 05:33 PM
I paid a daily grounds fee for a show where I rode the horse to the show grounds. Furthermore, my mom was told that she couldn't park her car on the grounds, even though we would be working out of the car. People who trailered their horses in were allowed to park on the grounds. At another show, I had to pay the stall fee when I scratched (vet excuse). Now, I don't mind this for a show that has to bring in temps b/c management has to pay up front for those. But, this was at a facility with permanent barns and LOTS of them (way more stalls than the number of horses--a large race track). They also sent me a bill for my entries (we only sent nominating and stall fees in). That was allowed as per the premium, but definitely annoying nonetheless, especially since the horse was still lame when I got the bill. BTW, I HAVE managed horse shows.

MsHunter
May. 17, 2001, 06:27 PM
OK you have given it away. I know who you are now, I would have never guessed you'd be online!
I know what show you are talking about! Try being in my shoes. I paid 53 total in entries for ONE YEARLING CROSSBRED FILLY to show in hand for a total of one class for 1 minute.
My customers that show in hunter/jumper divisions aren't ready for Blue Rock. We will go to Woodedge where it is cheap, and fun and close.
I haven't seen you in South Jersey, maybe you should try it sometime<G>!@

AAJumper
May. 17, 2001, 06:38 PM
I would rather see all those fees incorporated into a larger class fee, if necessary. I don't see that it is fair for me to have to pay a $50 nomination fee, $25 grounds fee, etc etc etc if, for example, I only show one day. So let's say I show in 3 classes, all on one day. My entries are $40/class=$120 PLUS $50 in nominating fees. So now we're up to $170 for 3 classes... $56/class!!! But the person who stays 3 days and shows in 9 classes only pays $40/class=$360 plus $50 nominating fee = $410 or $45/class.

I don't know...it just doesn't seem right that you have to pay a bunch of money before you even enter one class. If the shows are not making enough $$$, then I would rather see a price increase on a per class basis, rather than a bunch of fees that you have to pay regardless of the number of classes you do.

Regarding the nominating fee....the shows at LAEC charge that fee for ALL the jumper classes, regardless of whether prize money is offered (which was supposed to be the reason for the fee originally). The jumpers that can win money have to pay an even higher nominating fee.

Blue Devil
May. 17, 2001, 06:39 PM
They seem to just have sprung up everywhere! Around here at AA shows, even the childrens/a/a jumpers are required to pay the fee (normally $150)...that means the entry fees for children's jumpers is around $300, not including any type of classic or anything (which costs more $$)

**~~Emily~~** proud member of the junior clique!

Reckoning
May. 17, 2001, 06:50 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't nominating fees only required for divisions where prize money is offered? Granted, which divisions offer prize money is discretionary to the show management as its only required in A rated divisions, but if its offered in the child/adults and schooling jumpers, why shouldn't those divisions be charged a nomination fee like the other divisions that are paying out prize money?

AAJumper
May. 17, 2001, 07:10 PM
Slugger, at some shows we have to pay a nominating fee for the A/A jumper division (or even for schooling jumpers) and NO prize money is given whatsoever!!!!

Doubleeez
May. 18, 2001, 05:47 AM
I'm surprised after reading four pages of complaints about the high cost of showing fees that noone has done anything about it.
The AHSA has a process in place to suggest rule changes and if you don't like all the added fees, propose a rule change to prohibit them. This is the only way you can get anything done in the recognized shows.
Of course, you will have management jumping down your throat with all sorts of excuses as to why the various fees need to be charged, but still, propose the prohibition and see what happens.
Proposed changes for next year are due in the AHSA office by June 1st.
Go to AHSA.org and get a copy of the official form they have for the proposals. Write your change and send it in.
They do consider all proposals made and it will be referred to the Rules Reference Committee for further deliberation.
Should it be accepted, it will then be published with the current rule change proposals and discussed by the various committees involved.
Follow the prescribed process that has been set out for you instead of wasting your time complaining!!

Jumphigh83
May. 18, 2001, 05:50 AM
I prefer to think of it as "venting".... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Betsy

Michelle Mc
May. 18, 2001, 06:22 AM
Pulling out one years of equine bills to disclose:

1. ambulance fee $5 (eastern PA show). I don't ride THAT bad.
2. schooling fee $15 (yes we did jump something)(MD) Yes, I do practice.
3. grounds fee $15-20 (I asked, and learned the show has to pay the facility for each trailer)(PA,VA) Next time I will ride there.
4. AHJF relief fund $5 (MD,KY,PA)- I gave them $2000 in Y2K. Hope to do more in 2001. Sadly, I have knowledge of horsepeople who have required assistance.
5. office fees $5-25 for changing classes (MD,VA,PA,NJ,KY,FL,GA,NC,DE) or for each horse entered $15 (MD, PA, VA, KY, FL, NC). OK - this law office charges similar fees for taking up time.
6. late fee $10-$150 for entering or nominating after the close of entries. I just can't get organized sometimes, nor out on Friday afternoon.
7. Insurance Fee $10 (PA, WI). See #1 (I must really ride badly).
8. and lastly, had to join CWEF for $50 (planting all those palm trees must be expensive!)

Then, the vet charged a fuel surcharge, the board bill went up 5% (the staff all got well-deserved raises, and a medical plan!), my AT&T wireless bill (is this horse-related?) is $700 (includes $27 in government "extra fees"), and the farrier has had to increase his rates as well.

And I still make no prize money. Hmmm. Maybe I will take up boxing to pay for the horses.

Doubleeez - god luv ya - "quit complaining." I could NOT have said it better. Posting on this thread does nothing but wear down the keyboard. Take action, right? You've said it all.

On the other hand, the AHSA will never regulate the prices at shows. I've been a member for - well, a very long time - and the subject gets brought up at "every" convention and quickly expunged.

Back to Constitutional Law.

Y'all have fun. See ya tomorrow. I'll be paying "to the nose" again.

ProzacPuppy
May. 18, 2001, 06:41 AM
that Pin Oak charged, but only on one day and only for one ring and not necessarily to everybody. The Friday afterschool crowd had to buy a $15 schooling badge and sign up for a time with the ring steward. For said fee you got 5 minutes in the ring with 9 other people. Fine and dandy. The 5 minute limit was a bit short considering how busy the ring was. And then they started announcing that the ring would close in 5 minutes even tho the sign up sheet had dozens of people still waiting to school.

The biggest problem were the "deaf" trainers who refused to leave the arena when the guy in charge told them their time was up, but the next 10 would enter and start schooling. It got very hectic and no one really got any schooling done.

Except for that I think the Pin Oaks were done very well. They even had free margaritas...I like that in a horse show.

DMK
May. 18, 2001, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posting on this thread does nothing but wear down the keyboard. Take action, right? You've said it all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One could certainly make the same argument for those who choose to respond (several times) to the people who are expressing concern, anger, frustration or bemusement at the situation, eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ain't nothing wrong with a little honest discussion and discourse - you might not like the topic or agree with the other people, but damn, I'm sure it wasn't a complete waste of time to discuss it. Who knows? You might have even changed a mind or educated a person!

As for creating change, I try to NOT give my business to horse shows that are not providing what I deem to be adequate service in exchange for money. Given my location, since I have to travel to practically EVERY show, it's easier for me to pick and choose. That isn't the case for others, and that is sad.

As for petitioning the AHSA to regulate fees? On a personal note - not now, not EVER. I would prefer the market to manage this, not a regulatory body. Chances are, EVERYONE would be unhappy with the solution!

Doubleeez
May. 18, 2001, 07:37 AM
Michelle Mc - I did not intimate anything about regulating fees. That's been tried over and over again, and you are right, it just gets beaten down by the show managements who are ALWAYS in attendance at the AHSA convention.
My thought was that if you don't like management charging a nominating fee for classes where no prize money is offered, propose a simple prohibition stating, "Nominating Fees may not be assessed for classes in which no prize money is offered".
Knowing how clever management is, they could well change the name of the nominating fee so best you include in your proposal, "No additional fees for entry may be assessed for classes that do not offer prize money".
Try it - at least you are letting management know that they are "gouging" you at the entry desk and you have had enough !!

Weatherford
May. 18, 2001, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> AHSA dues have not increased since 1996. There are no plans to do so in the immediate future, EXCEPT perhaps an increase in the Drugs and Medications Fee to expand testing and research. The AHSA Competition Fee has subsidized the DM fund for the last many years... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lisa
May. 18, 2001, 09:11 AM
...when I read the last two paragraphs of DMK's post. And what do you do for a living, girlfriend? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

On one hand, I would like to see some regulation regarding show fees. But as we have seen through a certain other industry, /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , governing what people can charge can limit quality and service. And even worse than The Other Industry, charges would probably be mandated by those who have the most to gain -- those who are providing the service!

And while it would be best if it were self-regulated by the industry, that doesn't always work, either... Look at commissions, for example: "Oh, he can charge that, I can too!"

Having said that, I would still like to see the mileage rule lifted so we could give self-regulation a chance. Managers should be encouraged to solicit exhibitors based on the quality of their show, including prize money, venue, permanent stabling (who enjoys paying the same amount for a tent? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ), etc., not by having the only game in town (or within 240 miles!).

It will be interesting to see what happens in June. The AHSA has sanctioned two shows within the mileage limitation. I'm wondering who will choose what show based on location, rating, venue, and overall quality.

Triple Crown
May. 18, 2001, 09:15 AM
The update: To be fair, I want to mention that I called the circuit in question regarding my issue this morning and they have apparently sent me a letter allowing the three weeks of stall fees to be applied to a future show. This "compromise" still leaves me out my nominating fees, scratch fees, and all those other lovely charges, but I have to say that an effort has finally been made on their part to rectify the situation.

The comment: Those of you complaining about the "whiners", please don't be quite so sure that nobody's trying to enact change. This board is (usually) a great place for exchange of ideas, contact development, etc. Please check your assumptions. You don't know what people are or are not doing to change existing situations that aggravate them.

Finally, DMK, all I can say is you are so right on about everything in my opinion.

Sea Urchin
May. 18, 2001, 09:22 AM
Agree w/Triple Crown - DMK is definitely "right on" on this issue. I think all concerned BB'ers should appoint her as Erin Brokovich to take on a certain show manager! LOL

VTrider
May. 18, 2001, 09:28 AM
I second that Sea Urchin...she has the long "naturally" red hair, cute figure and punchy attitude...And she picked up a little number at the Finicky Filly in Middleburg that will put her in proper Erin Brokovich attire!

DMK
May. 18, 2001, 10:48 AM
Nothing like spending your life in a screwed up, nationally despised, highly - and yet unsucessfully - regulated industry to give you perspective, eh Lisa? (that would be health care insurance in general, Medicare in particular for those of you dying to know - no pun intended!)

Thanks for the compliments, but no, VT - I think I do lack the appropriate attributes to manipulate certain individuals into doing my bidding /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And if I bought anything at the Finicky Filly, it's all VT's fault - she got me drunk and drove me around Middleburg

Smiles
May. 18, 2001, 12:57 PM
O.K. DMK what if you pay your drug fee, but They don't invite the testers to that particular show shouldn't get a refund if they are not using these services???

DMK
May. 18, 2001, 01:09 PM
wouldn't that be nice Smiles!

But I would bet a lot of money that the drug fee is based on the required funding to test X percent divided by expected number of competitors per year.

I suppose option B would be to charge the individual for a test rather than to amortize it across all competitors. Bet it would be several hundred (thousand?!) per test. I bet there would be a LOT more people fleeing from the drug testers for a lot different reasons than they do today! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bluemoon
May. 18, 2001, 05:10 PM
I just got a prize list from a show in SE PA. The show has the WIHS and the M&S Classics (2 rounds). Each class has an extry fee plus an office fee!!! This is an office fee per class not per show. Talk about making money. I have worked in the secretary's stand, started and announced. I never got any extra $ for scoring classics.

Tripleoxer
May. 21, 2001, 01:51 AM
I just found out from LJ Enterprises that a horse show that I attended spent $4200 to RENT the jumps for a week. LORDY! They look like the same jumps that I have been jumping there for the past 3 years. They were the same jumps that were there the previous week for another show and I imagine that they rented them as well... Suggestion... Since they are really nice jumps (that I like to crash), why not purchase them? For the regularity of usage they would hold up. In the long run they would be ahead. Where are the financial managers? Any insight here?
I also want to apologize for commenting on the AHJF Fee on my bill... I now have a better understanding of why that OPTIONAL Fee was on there and I concurr that it was money well spent! So, please quit beating me up on that comment... My ignorance... SORRY!

Jumphigh83
May. 21, 2001, 05:08 AM
I wouldn't beat you up triple...it should have been CLEAR that it was optional. The way it was presented is fraudulant. If someone wants to donate , fine, but that should be very very clear. Not part of obscure fees. The jump thing is amazing huh? It would seem logical that a purchase would save money on the long run. But since when is logic part of the horse world??

Betsy

ponymom138
May. 21, 2001, 05:47 AM
Tripleoxer, if its the same show that I was at the last 2 weekends the show rents the jumps not the facility so each show spent that much (though I hope they negotiated a discount since the jumps did not have to be relocated each time.) Where would show organizers keep those jumps all year til next years show. I know that they couldnt be kept at the venue. How much would they cost to purchase? So actually it seems more cost effective to rent....if you consider purchase price, storage, and the fact that they only get used once a year(by each particular show) I also wonder if that price includes jump crew fees? This would make it even more reasonable. The crew must have been on its way somewhere because after the NAL victory gallop(the 8th place was still in the ring!) they started breaking down the jumps and were in the ring with a semi by the time I had walked to my car.I may be all wrong about this but as far as I know the venue(if its QRC) does not own nor rent the jumps.

Janet
May. 21, 2001, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At another show, I had to pay the stall fee when I scratched (vet excuse). Now, I don't mind this for a show that has to bring in temps b/c management has to pay up front for those. But, this was at a facility with permanent barns and LOTS of them (way more stalls than the number of horses--a large race track). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't necessarily follow. The SHOW MANAGEMENT may be REQUIRED to pay the FACILITY MANAGEMENT for a set number of stalls, whether they are occupied or not. I know that was the case when Monk Reynolds was running Showday/Commonwealth/Culpeper.

Jumphigh83
May. 21, 2001, 08:43 AM
You are right about a set fee for the stalls wether or not they are occupied..(when we "did" a show that was the case) BUT..what about WEF where the QH people paid HALF of what the H/J people were paying? At Northampton horse show (not this year but a while ago) the reiners (and then the Paso) people were paying LESS than half of what we were paying AND they could do a per diem which would REALLY save some of the ridrs who also have a "real" job. They have you...you are a captive audience and if you want to play, you are going to PAY. It is a bit short sited to summarily exclude so many otherwise enthusiastic participants but they are short sited and choose to make big dollars on a few clients rather than modest dollars on many more clients. I guess there is no simple answer. We will eventually end up like the Shakers..a self limiting group which dies out due to a lack of up and comings...It serves to further polarize and already fractured group and in doing so, weakens us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Betsy

snickers
May. 21, 2001, 10:15 AM
Regarding the breeds that paid less for stalls, etc.

Were there shows the same # of days as the hunter show? Did they have sponsorship that might have off set the cost of stalls to exhibitors?

I know that many facilities charge for the number of stalls used per day, ie if the show is only 4 days, stalls should be cheaper than a show that is 5 days.

So if the show used a total of 200 stalls for the show and the show has to pay for those stalls for the entire time they have the facility rented. Very few facilities let you pay for only a night, they have to clean the stall afterward regardless.

I agree with ponymom regarding the cost of purchasing jumps.

$4500 for three rings, but schooling jumps is much better than the cost of buying, storing and maintaining the jumps.

Jump crew is probably not included in that cost.

Addtionally, many jump rentals cost much more, LJ Entrprises has contract with Quentin to be the only jumper supplier at that facility, so the shows get a break in rental.

Anticipation
May. 21, 2001, 10:28 AM
I assume you are talking abotu Quentin since you live in PA and it was the weekend before you posted PLUS it had the same fees you had named. It was ridiculous, I know- I was there too.

Ericka
*~* ANTICIPATION *~* HIGH HEELS *~* CAMARILLA *~*

VTrider
May. 21, 2001, 10:29 AM
Anticipation - Are you a HOKIE? You go girl! Email me!

DMK
May. 21, 2001, 10:30 AM
Tiny tot - I won't swear to it, but quite possibly the QH show went on longer than the h/j show. At the very least, it went on for the same number of days.

Now, I do recognize that the h/j show had additional staff in the form of jump crew, however, I thought that is why we paid extra $$ for our classes.

DudleyDog
May. 21, 2001, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Free margaritas? I have GOT to start showing again. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin

tle
May. 21, 2001, 11:08 AM
I find it "funny" that on the H/J board you have one thread about how much it costs and how high and absurd some of the costs of showing are... and yet at the same time there is a thread that goes into detail about all the plants, curtain, matching this and matching that that everyone has for the shows.

truly unbelievable. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Michelle Mc
May. 21, 2001, 12:30 PM
....I find it "funny" that on the H/J board you have one thread about how much it costs and how high and absurd some of the costs of showing are... " You said it!

And what about the matching horse clothes and the custom boot threads! This all costs money. SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Where's the thread on gas costs - I ask again.. It went up a quarter this month. Is that show managements fault? So they're making money. So what? I go to shows all over the east and pay all the fees. If I have a question about a fee, I ask. I don't post something snippy on some website. I know why there are $5,8,10,15,20,25 fees.
I went to HITS last summer and jumped 8 jumps for $50 per class in unrecognized classes! No points for nothing! No extra "fees," but the costs are 30% more..... And our hotel bill was $259 per night. Not to mention meals, trucking, trainers, tips for the grooms, and $50 per section (!) added on as post-entry. Per section! I read it in the prize list, so I knew it was coming. Ouch.

I paid $30 per adult class last week, and the grounds and processing fees. No drain on my pocket. A bargain compared to Catksills! I saw lots of staff, equipment, and overhead.
Our partners make $300/hour and up. You get what you pay for. And the clients know it all costs money. Still paying back 2 grad school loans here.

Yes, I agree the adult sections (me) could be earning some prize money. I'll pick the phone up and ask our local shows to toss something back at us. Too bad I don't have a shot of any of it!

weeble
May. 21, 2001, 03:50 PM
1) you don't always get what you pay for. Some of the managers charging the most fees have shows that are continuously complained about on all levels (and often for good reason)

2) I have worked as a show employee, I have put on shows myself. I did deserve to make a profit for the product I offered. I did not deserve to rob people blind for the "privilege" of coming to my shows.

3) your continued reference to your high-priced partners leads me to believe that you feel paying more means it's better. By that reasoning you feel that the more you pay, the better the show, so bring it on! Not everyone can be so cavalier about the cost of showing, many work hard to do what they enjoy and the costs do matter and do add up. You know it's expensive going in, but there's expensive and there's ridiculous.

4) if you want a "cost of gas" thread, maybe you should find an oil company BB. The fact that exhibitors want to question where these show fees go and what they are for is a natural consumer situation. Why you seem so hostile I can't imagine.

For everyone, in CA the jumper nominating fee has long been explained as a fee to offset the costs of maintaining read-out boards, timers, additional jumpe crew, etc. Now in Southern CA some shows are charging a "Hunter Fee" as well. What's that for, new silk flowers for the flower boxes, perhaps? I'm all for management covering expenses amd making a profit, but if I'm paying these fees I have a right to ask what they're for and see some tangible result or explanation for my expenditure. That is true in any business.

MichelleMc, I will make the assumption your partners are attorneys, I will guess that for their $300/hour fee they actually have to show up in court or at a deposition or does the $300/hr show up on the statement as the "Offsetting cost of law school" fee. (Mandatory)

Snowbird
May. 21, 2001, 04:35 PM
Well look if you run 10 rings and you've made a $10 million dollar investment in land and fencing etc. you have to have 1.5 million to pay back and service that money at a reasonable 15%. Divide that over the fact that a an absolute maximum you can run 75 horses per ring over fences.

Now take the number of actual show days and multiply a mximum of 750 horses per day in 10 rings. I think that you will find about $40 per entry goes to servicing the investment.

So yes! they have to charge a lot of money because it is a single use facility for a limited amount of time. If you really prefer to compete in that kind of circus then you have to cover those costs. And, yes you are paying for the purchase and maintenance of that facility but you don't have a share in their profits.

Where I see a problem is that in every class of 50 there are 40 losers, they pay as much work as hard and are just as uncomfortable but they get nothing for their trouble. Any business designed so that the largest majority of the clients pay to support the ego and prestige of 10% is going to create a lot of hard feelings simply because of the inequality of opportunity.

I agree totally that the exhibitor should feel they are getting a value for their investment of time and energy. The above scenario doesn't work.

For example in Zone 2 we have a one day one ring horse show. This show has sufficient entry fees to cover all the physical costs. But, our Zone committee posts a cost of $41,000 for the one day one ring show. All the classes are sponsored and there is a program book. Here I have no idea how they can manage to spend all that money on about 100 riders. I figure theyre saying that in addition to the $150 each rider pays they spend another $410 to accomodate that rider. That's just plain silly as to the value of what is being purchased.

Why shouldn't people look to see where they get the best bang for their bucks. The unrated classes are exactly the same at any local C-Rated one day show. Find the ones you like! The big C-Rated Divisions are the same at every show so you are the consumer you get to shop around and see where you get value for your money.

Now, if you are obsessed by the herd instinct, and you feel compelled to be in a mob scene, and if you really believe that bigger is better then expect to buy the farm. There is no deception, they're not forcing you to go and it's your money.
You are donating to each and everyone of those show grounds that is overcharging you with minimal comfort and you are not getting any dividend return for your investment.

You have a choice and you should be a better shopper that's all! I really lose patience with this sense of being a perpetual victim. If there are no shows other than that that you can attend well then volunteer some time and effort to help those shows struggling to survive.

At least this way you can pat yourself on the back for being a good environmentalist and saving open spaces for horses.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on May. 21, 2001 at 07:49 PM.]

Triple Crown
May. 21, 2001, 07:38 PM
Snowbird, you have a lot of great points, as usual. (By the way, for those of you that are so biting with your sarcastic remarks, please use Snowbird's posts as an example of how to politely disagree! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) I do agree to a large extent that many people can pick and choose what shows to go to, or that you could "avoid the mob" and go to a nice "C" show. There isn't always a choice, though. (you're stuck going with your trainer, your area of the country doesn't have a nice lower rated circuit, mileage rule again to an extent...)

Also, what if you do the big jumpers? That obviously restricts the shows that a person can go to. Of course, you can win some money, but by the time your horse gains experience, etc., you are so darn poor! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tripleoxer
May. 22, 2001, 12:43 AM
Although you didn't mention it buit I know that you are mentioning the Zone 2 finals... What a joke! Especially after you told me that the cost of the one day show is $41,000. So what if it is held at the Farm Show Complex. It is so dreary there after have been there for the previous 2 weeks with national qualifying horses. The whole day people are tearing down scaffolding and thier venues situated in the hall upstairs. The stalls are not cleaned out from the previous barn that was in them. The footing really is less then desirable too! Zone 2 final staff doesn't drag the ring like the PA National horse show does between each division and therefor the ring is brick hard. And the list goes on... The only good thing about Zone finals is the catered luch! Finally a free meal! LOL
Well shopping around for the "best bang for your buck" isn't always the best solution either. I remember going to a certain A rated horse show in on top of a mountain in NJ that provided me with multiple stalls that had dirty bedding in it from a horse show that was there two years ago. There was no bag shavings available and no sawdust offered. I had to clean the stalls prior to moving in and let my horses bed on the ancient dusty dirty shavings that were left behind after driving 155 miles. I would almost bet if I went there today the same shavings would still be in those stalls. Maybe that is part of being a good enviromentalist... Saving the trees... /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Yeah, the "perpetual victim" still applies no matter what propaganda is being projected.
Donate to struggling horse shows? Why? If you REALLY put some thought into it you would realize they are stuggling for a reason. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Some facilities really ought to stick to the C rated shows. It just seems to me that they particuarly excell with that type of show and are better equipped for that mindset. The AHSA should have a beeter guidline as to what minimal requirements a facility should have and provide for an A rated show. i.e. I think that it is ridiculous to jump higher than 3' when the longest line provided has four strides measured on 10.5ft stride with you having less than three strides to approach the jump. Then landing and having to make an immediate turn to the next jump which is set on the quater-line. I also believe that the jumps on a hunter course at an AHSA recognized show should represent NATURAL colors... not bright blue! So there... I have now officially donated my time and effort to a struggling horse show! Use it wisely..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

wtywmn4
May. 22, 2001, 05:34 AM
Tripleoxer, not that you asked, /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but the AHSA does have minimum requirements for shows. One of the criteria of the show's rating. Bad footing has been and continues to be paramount. There are footing reports available for each show. And as an exhibitor they are there for use. Please use them and fill them out.

Well, I have to say that if shows have become too expensive than for pete's sake, use your feet to make your feeling apparent. Nothing says "too much" than not paying and using the shows facilities. Thats the only way you can make a difference. Yes, Michelle managers should make something for their time, effort and expenditures. But gouging the exhibitors is what everyone is up in arms over. Nickle and dime fees on a continual basis do not a GOOD horse make. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

havaklu
May. 22, 2001, 05:51 AM
I agree with your last post -

As to the entire topic of fees - They can nickle and dime us or just raise the stall and entries.

Wait - they DID raise the stalls to $150.00 at KY!!!!

I really don't have the option of taking my busness elsewhere when they have 100's (literally) waiting to take my spot. And this show is only 100 miles from home. I don't know of anything else going on within 300 miles.

And to whomever felt that the 3' always supports the 3'6" - ummm that is not always true. This show had about 24 older A/O's and 12 youngs. That's about 35 X $175 (entry for the division) = $6,125 and the prize money piad was $3,500.

Yes we got the "main" ring for our classes but the A/O's got no Eq or AHSA medal and no Classic - The 3' riders get the Ariat medal and the main ring at high noon on Sunday for the 3' classics.

I think some show managers accomodate the 3' quite well now that I've seen it from both sides.

wtywmn4
May. 22, 2001, 06:02 AM
havaklu, and I'm not trying to flame anyone here, you don't have any other circuits that would be beneficial to your people? In other words, it's 100 miles, nothing closer to home to show at? My premise is, when you chip away at the base, sooner or later there is none left. Just good common business practice.

Twister
May. 22, 2001, 06:17 AM
havaklu, Kentucky is one of the few places I feel can charge the big money because they are a world class facility with great jumps, ring maintenence and tons of places to ride.

What I don't like is when the bill from Uncle Jack's Backyard Farm Horse Show is in the same ball park as the bill from Kentucky.

And here we are back at the mileage rule. If even one other show went up against Uncle Jack, Uncle Jack would fold and the new show would succeed. I agree that ten shows on the same week-end would not work, but shorten the mileage to 100 miles, and the world would change.

ponymom138
May. 22, 2001, 07:00 AM
Tripleoxer
Have I just had a light bulb go on. I think I might know who you are. Were you making interesting "grimaces" over your pics this past weekend. If this is you I am the photo girls mom( and friend of Bob the infamous)

havaklu
May. 22, 2001, 08:24 AM
I was not complaining about costs in my post - I simply: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>agreed with TripleO's comment about A shows up "on the hill".
Tried to make the point that you can't always take your business elsewhere - wtywmn - no there are no other rated shows and the locals with decent footing do not offer anything above 3'.
Tried to make the point that the 3' divisions do not always support the 3'6"[/list]

I realize shows are expensive and I think at the moment a lot of show managers are making a very good living - but it's because there is a demand for the shows held at the bigger complexes and most of these shows are selling out.

I'll be going back the KHP for some smaller A's - and guess what - the stall fees are only about $20 cheaper - my division entries are $150 vs. $175. The main difference is that they don't utilize all the rings and all the stabling.

So in the end all I'll save is $100 - So if it is $100 dollars difference between the BIG AA show with over 1400 of the nicest horses in the country versus an AA with 600 of the nicest hunters in the Zone the final cost is still about the same.

IME - an AA show is gonna cost $1000 or more depending on how far away it is. Where I sit - I just don't have access to nice 1 or 2 day A shows like they have out east.

Tripleoxer
May. 22, 2001, 02:36 PM
You got me!!!! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Peggy
May. 22, 2001, 11:15 PM
I believe that that particular show was run by the operators of the facility and that they brought in a "for hire" management team. The checks for stalls and entries were made out to 22nd DAA (District Agriculture Assn???) so perhaps the state of California is the bad guy here. Someone certainly made money on the stall.

justamom
May. 23, 2001, 07:22 AM
You seem to have quite an understanding of what, and how things should be done to run a horseshow that is satisfying for all in attendance.
You seem to be doing research on all the costs and requirements to run a sanctioned AHSA show.
Can we look forward to attending a show that is run up to par; by your very own standings in the future?? Trust me from what I have read, you are hinting that you are going to run shows that we can all be proud of! Good Luck!!

Snowbird
May. 23, 2001, 09:47 AM
Wll, it sounds to me as if you were one of those people who chose to move down instead of up in competition. I was on the orginial committee and we worked really hard to make this a day that would motivate NEW exhibitors to move up to the next level in competition. We made a rule that said you couldn't enter the Zone Finals with a horse just because it was turned down by the Penn National.

It was intended to be the first experience of the new challengers rather than a cheap ribbon and point bonus for the others already in the system. It has unfortunately lost much of that feeling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only good thing about Zone finals is the catered luch! Finally a free meal! LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have thought by now you had learned there is no free lunch, it always costs somebody or something.

I am sorry for your experience, it couldn't have been here because we always have a tractor trailer load of bagged shavings available for all our shows. I have had requests that since these are temporary stalls most trainers are grateful that there is a base and they don't require so many bags. I am certain that if you request from any show management that your stall be down to bare floor they would be happy to accomodate your needs. I know I certainly would be more than happy to supply you all the shavings you require. Some trainers even put as much as 10 bales in their stalls.

I certainly wouldn't offer you sawdust because my personal opinion is that it doies not do the job that needs to be done. So I doubt any shavings you found would be more dusty than sawdust.

Your latter issue would be solved if as I have suggested there was a level of difficulty that changed with the rating of a show. At this point there really is no difference between the C and A Rated divisions except money and points, certainly not effort or talent.

Different strokes for different folks, and you opinion is what makes this sport so unique we all all entitled to our opinion. I grew up in an era where horsemen liked challenges and differences. I would think judging from the horses and trainers who have showed in every kind of ring and under every kind of circumstance that it was just a different way to go.

What's so nice is that you can ask the size of a ring and if you only want to compete in rings that are 100x300 that is certainly your privilege. No one forces anyone to compete anywhere, we make those choices for ourselves. Our ring is 220 feet long and we opt to have an enclosed area where the entire division can be held waiting under roof. That is our choice because of the inclement weather in New Jersey especially as compared to the warm sunny days in Florida. Certainly, over the years none of the excellent horsemen who have been here have complained. There ia another barn that has opted for heat, I happen to believe that's not healthy for the horses. I certainly wouldn't try to impose my opinion on anyone else however.

As I understand the rules all hunter courses are supposed to represent obstacles which might be found in the field while hunting. Actually, we haven't done it but my guess is that a few clothes lines and maybe a swimming pool or garbage cans would be equally appropriate under that description.

I trust you will submit your suggestions to the appropriate show management since it is obvious you could not be discussing and experience at Snowbird.


/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bumpkin
Jun. 4, 2002, 09:22 PM
Bumpkining up since it is show season. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jumphigh83
Jun. 5, 2002, 07:42 AM
OK heres one for the board...I needed an extra stall at a HS recently and there was an empty one in my aisle which was bought AND PAID for by our "neighbor" Neighbor was willing to "sell" me the stall so I wouldnt have to have my horses all over hells half acre! I was informed by managment that that is FORBIDDEN and if I used to stall we BOTh (neighbor AND I) would have to pay for it????HELLLO????It was ALREADY PAID FOR BY THE NEIGHBOR!!!!!!!!!!!! IF she wants to put MY horse, her dog, bicycle, or just AIR in the stall I would think she could!!!! How can they DO THIS?? I would bet it wouldnt stand up if challenged but who can afford to make such a challenge??? I thought it was a disgusting, money grubbing example of what NOT to do at a horse show!

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Jumphigh83
Jun. 5, 2002, 07:45 AM
AND a friend of mine had a lead shank tied on the front corner of a stall which was dismantled by previous weeks occupants (for a tack stall) and they CHARGED her for the stall saying she used it to tie her horses in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (She DIDN'T..she just tied them in the aisle!!!!)THese geshtapo (sp??) tactics are bit extreme don't you think?

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Bumpkin
Jun. 5, 2002, 07:59 AM
That is outrageous Jumphigh!!!!

Had a similar situation once flying. A friend was not able to make the flight, so gave me the ticket.
I was thinking this is nice I have an empty seat next to me.
Airline said, no they can sell that seat.
So when I got to the counter I said and this is the ticket for my dog who is traveling with me, the seat was bought in her name, Miss X*** /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My question about the show management is....how do they know?
Do they check every single stall?
Wierd.

Jumphigh83
Jun. 5, 2002, 08:08 AM
Well I was foolish enough to tell the truth about the stall in my aisle (NEVER again) BUT yes they DO do walk throughs and they DO check horses, tack stalls and god forbid you put you bike or your dog or something in an empty stall it will become YOURS wether you like it or not!

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Jumphigh83
Jun. 5, 2002, 08:28 AM
Oh and I forgot..my favorites are the "insurance" fees and the "EMT" fees...WHat happened to building these expenses into the budget???..I personally would rather pay a few dollars more on the entry fee than to be nickeled and dimed to death by the misc fees which are a crock! (do I pay the "schooling" fee if I don't school??...is the Pope Catholic???)

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

equitationlane
Jun. 5, 2002, 08:58 AM
Why don�t you TELL what the names of the shows and/or corporations that are totally non-exhibitor friendly? Just tell it like it is and if the show management doesn�t like it, so what? It isn�t exactly like there aren�t enough shows to go to every year.

If I had had some problem (like I did years ago) I wouldn�t hesitate to name the names. I would name the manager but he fled out of the country with (supposedly) all the local associations money. I guess I need to put the disclaimer in so I don�t get sued for libel.

I really don�t have a problem at the large shows charging office fees. What with people coming in and changing classes, riders and horses all the time it can get pretty busy. Nor do I mind an add/scratch fee. It�s extra work for the office and makes things a bit complicated.

I do have a problem with small, local shows charging what the big shows do so far as office fees, warm ups and all the other things with witch they think they can away. See, Betsy, I really did have to work hard not to end a sentence with a preposition.


Just my nickel.

CoolMeadows
Jun. 5, 2002, 09:00 AM
Well the last show I went to this year cost me around $850. And I had NO STALLS!!

I shipped in with two horses. A Low Prelim horse that hasn't been shown in 2 years, and is as green as snot to boot. So he wasn't going to win much $ back and entered the whole division.

The other horse was my Wonderhorse who did one Low Jr/A-O class and then the Classic. Thank Gawd he got a good piece of the Classic and reduced my total owed to about $250 or I might have been pan-handling to cover that check!

And people keep asking why I only come out to play a couple of times a year now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I would love to be on the Circuit all the time, but it's just not possible. And people wonder why horses are so expensive - it costs and arm and a leg to make a winning 'A' show horse!

Smiles
Jun. 5, 2002, 09:02 AM
Well this year they have raised the prices again. Most likey in the Near Future the midclass horse person won't be able to do recognize shows!!!!

Linny
Jun. 5, 2002, 10:33 AM
I just returned to riding off a 10 year hiatus. I haven't showed and if I did I'd never be able to explain the bill to my husband. He's not only non-horsey, he's borderline anti-horse! To hand him a $1000 bill for one weekend on top of monthly board, vet, farrier, lessons etc would be the final step before listing the beast for sale!
My husband and I make good money for our area. We have a nice home (with lots of equity) and our cars are paid for but we are both a bit "cheap." I can't imagine how someone of less comfortable means pays for big shows. A friend of min just showed in 2 unrated divisions of HITS II and it cost about $1000 for a few days. I can't imagine writing $1000 checks every other week and not being able to live in what I'm paying for!

Rant over! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That said, I applaud all of the trainers out there who do what they can to make this sport as affordable as possible. My last trainer (pre-hiatus) was awesome in this regard. When I was single, had rent and car payment and a low paying job I was able to show about once a month with her. She's no longer in the biz and its too bad.

Resident racing historian
May the horse be with you -Harvey Pack May you be with the horse - My last trainer

bertha
Jun. 5, 2002, 01:03 PM
Since all AA and Children's classes are always "C" rated, why ever go to an "A" show? The points aren't more (unless tons more people)for an "A" show, and they cost tons more money. Are good courses worth that much?

Sorry, I am an Economics major.

Duffy
Jun. 5, 2002, 02:30 PM
I don't know of any "C" rated shows in Virginia. There are only rated (A or AA) and unrated, i.e. local association ones, from what I've seen. And, unfortunately, because of the mileage rule, some shows get exhibitors when perhaps they might go elsewhere... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wondrlnd77
Jun. 5, 2002, 06:08 PM
about telling the names of non-user friendly shows-
I can only speak from my own experience, but in my long skinny state, the southernmost region onlyhas one corporation running rated shows with the exception of the winter circuit. I personally would like to be treated pleasantly by these people if I choose to attend these shows. I can say from experience, that people don't want to be blacklisted...

As an aside, down here many of us are electing to forego the rated shows for the many well run unrated circuits available. (competition! no mileage rule!) When asked recently why my face has not been seen at a rated show pretty in eons, I told this person that the quality of the unrated shows is first rate, for half the cost. A weekend at a rated show is simply overwhelming financially for the average middle class person.

Would I like to attend rated shows? Of course! But it is just not economically feasible for many people.

AAJumper
Jun. 5, 2002, 10:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bertha:
Since all AA and Children's classes are always "C" rated, why ever go to an "A" show? The points aren't more (unless tons more people)for an "A" show, and they cost tons more money. Are good courses worth that much?

Sorry, I am an Economics major.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One reason is for the facilities. There are only a few facilities around here that even have C shows, and they are fairly small with not so great parking, etc. The two really nice facilities in this area are far enough away that it is only worth the trip if you are going to a multi-day show, thus an A show (in general). Plus, even when showing near home, I prefer to go to a multi-day show where I can show for 3 days. It's nice to have the full set-up w/cross ties, stalls, etc, rather than hanging out with your horse tied to a trailer all day. We used to do that all the time, but now I prefer doing the multi-day show thing.

Oh, and Jumphigh, that is outrageous about the stalls!!!

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

freda1
Jun. 5, 2002, 11:05 PM
Several of you have said that you blame the mileage rule for allowing some managers to "fee you to death". I have to disagree with that premise. If you do away with the mileage rule, big, powerful, managers with lots of money (you paid them) will be able to set up across the street from smaller operations and run them right out of business. Lots of smaller shows are less expensive to attend and much nicer, but way too many people need to go to and be seen at the big events. As a small horse show manager who tries to put on a decent event, if Tom Struzzieri goes against my show and offers all the money he is able to, I am dead. Please try to remember, the mileage rule helps small shows and protects us from the big guys, just like it helps them. You as the consumer have all the power, just don't go to shows that rape you.

tuffenuff
Jun. 6, 2002, 03:23 AM
you are brave you said the name!Unfortunately the only way to combat the rape of the client by management is thru your pocketbook!But in order for it to be effective lots of people would have to do this!

Smiles
Jun. 6, 2002, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by freda1 Please try to remember, the mileage rule helps small shows and protects us from the big guys, just like it helps them. You as the consumer have all the power, just don't go to shows that rape you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that would nice in my area if we had the option of showing with the little guy, but their is one person running the shows here, and either you go to his shows or out of state. I for one don't have that kind of money to show out of state. Plus that fact that Kentucky would be that only state in my zone that runs show on a regular bases. I see you point but it still does not work out for the costumer!!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jumphigh83
Jun. 6, 2002, 07:21 AM
As far as the "big A" shows and all the money they give out...NOT! Only is yo show in the prelim, open, or jr a/o!! The childrens adult both lo and hi and the ponies (jumpers) have NO money in them just the same silverplated trickets that we have gotten for 3 or more YEARS! I am NOT asking for millions but a small amount to defray the EXTREME cost of showing would be nice..an add back or a "free class" if you win, something like that and since the childrens/adult jumpers are the BIGGEST divisions at the show they are supporting the rest of the show with no incentive for them!Not asking for alot, just throw us a bone every now and then! I can win the M&S and get another check with a second horse and still not come CLOSE to covering expenses! What is wrong with THAT picture? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Bumpkin
Feb. 4, 2003, 07:25 AM
Since show season is starting up, thought I would Bumpkin this up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

slp
Feb. 4, 2003, 08:29 AM
Those of us here in Michigan have finally won a small battle....USAE has changed the milage rule for our state to 125 miles instead of 250. The problem before is that they drew a straight line through Lake Michigan instead of going around the bottom of the lake (which is how you would have to get there in a car) to determine milage, and so our shows here were limited because they would conflict with the Chicago area show dates.Now that this is changed, hopefully they will be able to hold more rated shows in Michigan because it opens up quite a few dates now....I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
Susan

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 4, 2003, 08:44 AM
hmmm.....as someone who is only starting to even READ the prizelists of rated shows, and not yet near ready to do them, I find this all very odd and confusing.

First, the mileage rule. I've got to say, as a PR/marketing pro, I just do not get it. OK, I know the concept was to not have so many shows so the horses didn't get worn out chasing points. Frankly, I think that's hogwash and there were other ways to do that (like restricting points that were considered to your first X number of shows...period. Do more and they can't be counted, or some such).

As to the mileage rule preventing HITS or some other show-management firm from coming in and crushing local shows -- I don't think so. I think the smaller show could re-invent itself in creative ways that would attract competitors -maybe not those looking for points or social status, but those looking for a certain type of experience. Have different fences, be known as the place where all competitors are welcome to view a judges comments.....something. Remember, the local "family restaurant" is still in business despite McD's, TGI Fridays and the rest.

Now...the fees. I've got to say these sound like the kinds of fees mortgage companies try to charge. And if you've ever gotten a mortgage, you know two things: shop around, and question every dollar. IF enough people raised enough of a fuss, the fees might just be adjusted.

Now.....on to another issue. That of fear. I find myself not understanding why no one will "name" shows or trainers or situations that are "known" to be wrong for fear of......what? I say if you have a problem, use available channels to resolve it but don't be ashamed! And if the available channels seem stacked against the individual -- COMPLAIN about it to the appopriate people, and in public. Don't like that you have to pay a high fee to protest? Write a letter to USAEq and cc: the horse publications about it! Why be afraid -- YOU are the one keeping this industry going....it's your money and your committment. And you deserve to be heard.

At least that's what I believe. But, hey, I've rather harassed Geoff Teall and used my real name, so I may not be the role model everyone wants &lt;grin&gt;...

jparkes
Feb. 4, 2003, 10:30 AM
Bumpkin, thanks for bumping this back to the top! With that said, I have a question for you. Does the western side of the state have a good local curcit? One that benefits the young horses, riders and run within the budgets that the average middle class horseman can attend without breaking the bank? The reason why I ask, I've been pondering the idea of starting a local circuit over here on the eastern side of the state. One that can benefit central and eastern WA and Idaho. There's nothing more than a few small schooling shows a year over here using schooling jumps. I would like to start a show series that uses jumps the same quality as the rated shows and make it affordable for all. Plus have a point system for year end awards. I grew up with a great local and state circuit in VA. Would like to see the same thing on a local level here one day.

Would enjoy reading feedback with ideas to help this get started out right...or am I just crazy to even think of the undertaking?

Calvaro V
Feb. 4, 2003, 12:04 PM
I don't know whether this has been said already (haven't read whole thread) but shows in Europe are generally WAY cheaper. Lots of times they are run by volunteers (excepting the biggest shows). NOrmal people on normal incomes can afford to go to them.

Here, it is a different story. HOwever, on the whole - facilities here are WAY nicer, so I guess you get what you pay for. Just my two cents

Zoef
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:02 PM
As an interesting and related point to the amount of money that horse show sponsors make on their shows, Gene Mische was quoted in the Palm Beach Post (in an article talking about the National Horse Show) to the effect that it cost $1 million for him to put on the National show and that he had a profit of $500,000. That is a nice profit margin in my book!

critter915
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:05 PM
I just hope that the Junior hunter committee's request to not have to braid will be passed. What would be even better is if the pony hunters didn't need to be braided b/c that's a large part of the fees to start with. They probably won't pass it thought(for ponies) b/c of the model classes. oh well. can't do anything about it.

Janet
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Junior hunter committee's request to not have to braid will be passed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That proposed rule change was withdrawn.

War Admiral
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:30 PM
What DMK said (way back on this thread). I was going to point out to everybody, but she already did, that it is *only* the H/J shows that assess these specious "fees". I lurk in a lot of other disciplines and have NEVER seen them outside the H/J arena. Might be worth a rule change proposal to USAE???

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

Bumpkin
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jparkes:
Bumpkin, thanks for bumping this back to the top! With that said, I have a question for you. Does the western side of the state have a good local curcit? One that benefits the young horses, riders and run within the budgets that the average middle class horseman can attend without breaking the bank? The reason why I ask, I've been pondering the idea of starting a local circuit over here on the eastern side of the state. One that can benefit central and eastern WA and Idaho. There's nothing more than a few small schooling shows a year over here using schooling jumps. I would like to start a show series that uses jumps the same quality as the rated shows and make it affordable for all. Plus have a point system for year end awards. I grew up with a great local and state circuit in VA. Would like to see the same thing on a local level here one day.

Would enjoy reading feedback with ideas to help this get started out right...or am I just crazy to even think of the undertaking?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would suggest calling Jim Bagby at Gold Creek stables.
They put on zone rated shows that have been quite successful and run with a min of people. http://www.gold-creek.com/

Don't email, Jim is horrible about emails, just give him a call.
You can tell him Constance sent you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

Janet
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:40 PM
I think that in other disciplines they are just incorporated into the regular fee.

I HAVE been to events where you have to send a second check for $20. if there are no errors or omissions on your entry form AND you don't cause extra work by wanting to change something, you get your $20 back.

jparkes
Feb. 4, 2003, 02:01 PM
Thanks Bumpkin!

monalisa
Feb. 5, 2003, 07:26 AM
I agree with Sillymommy.

There are shows that simply nickel and dime you to death. Quit going to them and make sure that the horse show manager knows why. I can think of 2-3 shows that I would regularly attend but they cost as much as some of the top rated shows. It is ridiculous but the "beatings will continue" until we as exhibitors quit going.

GotSpots
Feb. 5, 2003, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I just hope that the Junior hunter committee's request to not have to braid will be passed. What would be even better is if the pony hunters didn't need to be braided b/c that's a large part of the fees to start with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's an optional fee that you or your parents pay to braiders. If you learn to braid your own horse (and it will take time, patience, and practice to learn how, but it's not beyond the average person willing to learn) you would not have to pay those fees. The fees discussed here are the extra ones which are tacked on to the entry by the show management: the office fee, the extra schooling fee (even if you don't school), grounds fees, jumper nomination fees, etc.

I think that other equestrian disciplines may fold some of the fees in, but they also have a far leaner profit margin. In eventing, for example, entries are set usually to just break even or have a tiny bit of profit left over: there was a very good article written awhile back by Katie Lindsey about the cost of putting on an event. I don't remember the major extra fees at the APHA shows, either.