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Fairview Horse Center
Mar. 18, 2002, 09:49 AM
1

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 09:55 AM
Whoa. I don't know who you have been talking to, but I have definately been taught to see a distance. You might be refering to the fact that riding cross country, eventers typically don't look for distances but rather ride the rythem and ride to the base of the fence. The base is the safest place to leave from when jumping a solid obstacle, but you had better believe that we don't get there by accident. Riding to the base is a skill like any other.

Also, eventers are taught to balance and collect their horses, to stay balanced in the air, to sit back and tight, to ride forward. These, too, are basics.

I'm sorry you had a long night, but please don't attack eventers across the board or try to pick a fight. It's not constructive, it's not helpful, and it is not fair to those of us who work very hard at riding well.

I'm attaching a picture of my mare and I at an event last summer. Please let me know if you don't think I've mastered the basics enough to ride safely. --Jess

Pixie Dust
Mar. 18, 2002, 09:55 AM
OK, let me get this straight.....Mark Todd is the only one?

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

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tle
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:00 AM
Pass that box over here...

IMHO, you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Granted, they're both fruit that grow on trees, but still....

If you're talking about SJ, then I would agree with you. Eventers by and large could use a dose of the H/J circuit in their riding. however, when you start talking about riding XC, you're dealing with a whole new ballgame. When H/J riders can "pick their spot" to a ditch & wall, or water complex, or coffin or drop where the horse can't see the landing until 2 strides out while galloping (not cantering!) over uneven terrain... then we'll talk. Until then, find a new peeve please... because eventers are taught when on XC, the basis to any good jump is to maintain the appropriate rhythm and balance for the fence and LET THE HORSE find the jump. Yes there are times when you need to "get him in close"... but again that is more a factor of the rhythm and balance than it is being able to count from 8 strides away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

PS. JAGold... great pic! Time to start learning that auto release though... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:06 AM
TLE--yes, but this post was about the basics /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do agree that a following hand is generally useful for cross country, but this mare (who was 15 when that picture was taken and not likely to change her jumping style at that point) was very high headed. While a properly executed automatic release should not restrict a high-headed jumper or affect that style of jumping any more than it affects a horse who is more technically correct, my trainer and various clinicians felt that a crest release was appropriate in this situation.

--Jess

Duramax
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:07 AM
There is no such thing as a spot. There are an infinite number of places from which a horse can jump. Riding an appropriate pace that is balanced will get you over every time. When you start looking for a spot and start fiddling with your horse, you usually get into trouble. Ride forward, and ride the rhythm and you'll usually be fine.

That being said, comfortable "spots" do exist, but I think it is ignorant to say that eventers are not "taught" to find them. Many eventers start out h/j and then end up eventing. Many eventers regularly ride with h/j trainers for help in stadium.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Why can't my horse just be normal?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

rileyt
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:08 AM
Oy vey. Get some sleep. I agree with TLE that many eventers could use some work on their SJ, but just because we don't count 3-2-1 on X-C doesn't mean we are looking for a distance. Oh, and another thing. Saying that 10-year olds on ponys can count out 6 even, 10-foot strides down the outside line to their next fence is TOTALLY not the same thing as galloping up and down hills. But don't think that we don't know how to get to the base of our fences.

pv
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:17 AM
Normally I do not get involved in these discussions, but I find the original post to be ignorant and offensive. I can give a long list of examples of riders who are trained to see distances and do it very well. This is the basis of most SJ sessions at clinics that I have been involved in. Also included are exercises to compress and lengthen strides between related distances. Although the practice is different on XC, the basic technique is the same. If anyone thinks that upper level riders galloping into fences are not seeing a distance 3-5 strides out, they are kidding themselves. Lack of sleep is not an excuse for an attack based on opinion rather than fact. Do your homework.

tle
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Eventers don't "look for distances" because they don't know how. No one ever taught them that it was the basic requirement of jumping. They ride rhythm, and if they don't "happen" to be at the base "in stride" they "pat the ground" to add another tiny stride so they can take of from the base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fairview... do you have the slightest idea of how ridiculous, rude and flat out prejudice this sounds? Not to mention the previous comment about how 10yos can do this and that but those poor uneducated eventers... PULLEEZE! Give us all a break and go get some sleep. Others have commented about how a "spot" on XC works... it just IS NOT the same as H/J.

JAGOLD -- nah... I was just joking around with you. Really, it's a great photo and you look wonderfully in tune with the horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

jr
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:19 AM
Ok,

I just posted a comment on the other thread about the unfairness of generalizing...

I ride jumpers. I've seen great riders of all disciplines. One of the best I've ever met at riding a horse effectively and accurately to a fence, is a former eventer turned jumper.

It seems to meet that eventing places a premium on rhythm -- makes sense since a horse can jump just about anything from anywhere if they are galloping in a good rhythm. True in jumpers too.

Hunters also place a premium on rhythm -- it seems that a good, consistent cantering rhythm results in a nice, even round.

See -- not so far apart. I think y'all can learn a lot from each other.

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:31 AM
TLE -- fair enough /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think the topic has me feeling a bit defensive!

I don't really want to get involved in comparing the abilities of one group of riders to another, mostly because generalizing and assuming tends to make an ASS of U and ME. Riders are individuals, there are good and bad in every dicipline.

However, it seems relevant to note that a number of eventers participated in HITS this winter and did very well. How many jumper riders want to come out and play our game with us? --Jess

PS. I have ridden pony hunters and showed a small junior in high school. I did a bit of age-group eq -- on my event horse. Fairview, how many eventers DO you know, when you say that you don't know many who have been taught to find a spot?

Pixie Dust
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:32 AM
OK, this thread has me more irritated than finding out that FLA is not allow gays to adopt children...eirrrrghe

OK, here's an exert from Steuart Pittman's web page about a demonstration he saw. You don't think these people can "find a spot"??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

http://www.dodonfarm.com/Essay%202.html

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

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JER
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:33 AM
FHC, if you properly ride the rhythm to the fence (this means you have enough impulsion), you will almost always meet the fence at an appropriate distance.

This 'patting the ground' business is something completely new to me. If you mean that eventers think it's ok to chip, I personally don't know who would agree with that. Like in the tiny h/j classes, you can get away with it at BN or even N, but this would be extremely dangerous at a solid fence at 3' or higher. You would more than 'pat' the ground and so might the horse.

I do both straight SJ and eventing. I have a French trainer who demands that you ride the rhythm and correctly (this means enough pace and impulsion always). This is how he rides showjumpers at the World Cup level. We do not pick spots, but we do see distances and we keep riding forward. You know if the distance is good or bad and then you get the heck out of your horse's way to let him make the best jump possible.

As for stride counting, it's like sheep counting unless you know how to longitudinally adjust a horse well before the fence. I can count from 16 strides out, I can count from 8 strides out -- this is because I've developed an eye. But if I want to do 8, I'd better tell that to the horse when I start counting from 8. Then you ride the rhythm to the fence. I'm not looking for 'spots', I'm looking for my next fence.

One thing I'd like to add is in eventing, courses are usually up to height. Not so in my experience in SJ -- at A shows, we've had classes listed as 3'6" to 3'9" in which no fence is over 3'. And God help these AA riders if the fences were any higher, but I guess they go home thinking they're competitive at the 3'6"-3'9" level, and they're trainers continue to let them believe it.

Beans
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:34 AM
Most event riders I know and I've hired some to do the training of my young horses are excellent at knowing the distances. But your BRAG about H/J kids knowing the distances may apply to the show ring on the flat - but the majority of those same kids couldn't manage a course outside on uneven terrain with NON-horse show looking jumps if their life depended on it. It's a lot easier to gage a distance on the flat in a ring relative to a contained area. - Not so outside, cross country at a GALLOP.

Let's be fair. When horses are injured or die it's a sad thing but unless their was some human error or negligence - it's going to happen. Stress fractures can happen on horses - of course they are often more devestating when they are galloping cross country than trotting in a ring. Horses hitting a fence wrong and dying....well GEE - we had a huge discussion last year over a horse that hit a pipe and was impaled in FLA last winter during a lesson given by George Morris.!!!

tle
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, it seems relevant to note that a number of eventers participated in HITS this winter and did very well. How many jumper riders want to come out and play our game with us? --Jess<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OHHHHH... I like that!! Great idea Jess. Any takers? Fairview?

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

Cospi
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:36 AM
I just wanted to say that I HAVE been taught by several event riders to see my spot, counting down from 3, 6 or even 8 strides out. To name a few of these instructors, Denny Emerson, Wash Bishop, Jack Legoff, Suzi Gornall, Lucinda Green and Jane Hamlin. By the way, I also watched Denny ride a couple of different horses counting aloud his strides from 12 out, and EVERY time he nailed it perfectly. So Mark Todd is the only one?

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:37 AM
I don't know what eventers you've been talking to, but I definitely learned my distances. I agree with tle that eventers could learn a lot from jumper riders, and thus I attended many clinics with top jumper riders and took an occasional lesson from a top GP jumper at a nearby barn.

One reason you might see a lot of horses take off from funny distances in XC is because we are dealing with a WHOLE heck of a lot more than "finding the perfect distance." Not to belittle hunters, I used to ride hunters, but it's a lot easier when your course is "inside outside outside inside", and you know there are supposed to be 6 strides here, 5 here (depending on your horses/pony's stride, of course). On the XC course we are dealing with uneven terrain, hills, water, banks, drops, bounces, etc and trying to make time. I, not being a top rider (I have only done 2 3-days) tried very hard and was taught to collect before the fence and approach it in the middle while still having momentum so as to find a good spot. But often in trying to hard to find that spot, I totally got in my horse's way. If I were not on him and he were pointed at that fence, he could quite easily find a spot on his own, or if not, hop right over it anyways. He saved my butt many times when i messed with him too much trying to find a spot, he NEVER stopped once in 6 years, and he pulled us out of sticky situations that i put us in.

I agree with you that distances are something that need to be taught, but I think that it just shows how ignorant you are to say that Mark Todd is the only eventer who knows how to find distances.

By the way, Jess, your mare is SOOO adorable, i want her!

rileyt
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:41 AM
I'll let TLE defend herself... but I think this is an expression used to reinforce the need for rythym, forwardness, pace... it does not mean sit up there and do nothing.

I think this thread is really ignorant. I'm done posting.

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:46 AM
yes, riley. our horses are more capable (at least mine was) than we give them credit for. but that does not mean sit up and do nothing. rhythm, forwardness, pace, and collection (impulsive collection, was KEY for me and my hot little tb).

Cospi- same here! spent time with Wash and Jimmy Wofford. Counted strides, etc. Why would anyone say mark todd is the only on.

Jess- Awesome. Lets see some of those jumper riders come tackle one of our xc course and put in a great dressage test (ok, so they might smoke us in the sj phase, but not necessarily!)

FairWeather
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:49 AM
a clinic with Denny...He emphasized finding your spots and counting strides the entire time!

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>you should be able to tell if you need to put in 3 - 8' strides, or 4 - 6' strides to get you to the base.
So, how many of you can do that before you ride maybe Training level?

I could do that before I rode BN. It's a basic in riding no matter the sport (as long as that sport includes jumping), and is learned and perfected with time and experience. its not something you can learn in one lesson. you develpo an eye for distances with time.

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 10:56 AM
ok, so i can't do quotes. ha! sorry

wannabegifted
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tle:
"eventers are taught when on XC, the basis to any good jump is to maintain the appropriate rhythm and balance for the fence and LET THE HORSE find the jump"

I know that this is what eventers are taught. My problem is that it is left to the horse. The horse should be a back up for the rider's skills, not just left to figure it out. Yes, horses can and do learn to figure it out, but I think it is a responsibility of a rider and especially at higher levels to get the horse to the comfortable spot without a last minute adjustment, or the horse being in a position to have to decide to take off long or "pat the ground".

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lucinda Greene, Queen of Cross country, five time badminton winner says something like the following "it is your job to pick the balance, the pace and the line, it is your horses job to find his spot"

if you cant trust a world class athlete to give you the truth and facts on how she has been so sucessful, maybe you need to just go do hunters where you are obviously more comfortable.

wannabegifted
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Just that it was noticable what smooth take off spots he gets his horses to, unlike many, many others.

And lots of you say you don't know what eventers I have been talking to, but obviously they are here saying "just ride a rhythm and let the horse figure it out"

A wonderful steady rhythm can put you anywhere from 12" to 1' out. Yes, the terrain needs to be ridden differently, but if you need to approach a fence using lots of collected strides, you should be able to tell if you need to put in 3 - 8' strides, or 4 - 6' strides to get you to the base.

So, how many of you can do that before you ride maybe Training level?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


we dont gallop on lots of collected strides, this isnt show jumping!!!!!!!!!!

Pixie Dust
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:10 AM
This is the most ridiculous "argument" I've ever heard!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

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Pixie Dust
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:11 AM
OK, then how many hunter riders can get 11 even strides in a 5 stride line?

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

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Robby Johnson
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:

If little kids on ponies can do it before they are allowed to jump 2', why is it too much trouble for eventers to learn the absolute basics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they're not the absolute basics. Rhythm is.

Robby

Poombadesign
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
The horse should be a back up for the rider's skills, not just left to figure it out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know one thing for sure...a horse that was depending on the rider to put them in the perfect spot every time would not be a very strong eventer. Event horses have to be able to take charge every once in a while. Now, that definitally does not mean we leave them to fend for themselves at every jump, but if you've got a horse that won't jump from anything other than this 'perfect spot', then he's in the wrong sport, my friend. We value boldness in our horses, and its a vital skill needed to sucessfully complete XC.

"It's Friday afternoon...do you know where YOUR Chronicle is??????"

my page!!! www.geocities.com/countrymouse0524 (http://www.geocities.com/countrymouse0524) it's a work in progress!!

Jupes
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:14 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I know that this is what eventers are taught. My problem is that it is left to the horse. The horse should be a back up for the rider's skills, not just left to figure it out.


Here's where I think Fairview Horse Center doesn't understand XC jumping. Inherent in eventing is the horse and rider working as a TEAM, for goodness sake! If we didn't depend on each other, we might as well invent a machine to cart us around, programming each move. You imply that we are just passengers, letting the horse make up for our inabilities. This is untrue and offensive. Yes, the rider has a great responsibility to ride correctly, but sometimes the horse needs to and is expected to be able to figure it out on its own. Please don't generalize and say event riders DON'T KNOW HOW to "find a *spot*"; sometimes that just ISN'T WHAT'S CALLED FOR in a particular situation. I remember listening to Jimmy Wofford's commentary on Rolex a couple years ago, and he specifically spoke to the issue of riding the rhythm, and not overriding the jumps *because* of the speed and terrain issues. There are SO many more variables than in the ring.

I find that developing the TEAMWORK needed to successfully negotiate a XC course the most rewarding part of the sport.

Robby Johnson
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:

And yes, Mark Todd is such a novelty as to be noticable as to the fact that his horses always arrive at the base "in stride". That is not by accident.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what is safer, patting the ground or chipping at a solid obstacle?

Are you saying Blyth Tait's horses don't jump out of rhythm? Kim Vinoski's? Karen O'Connor's? David O'Connor's? Phillip Dutton's? Bruce Davidson's?

Robby

GotSpots
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:19 AM
Ever get the feeling that someone let the troll out?

If this was a serious comment, FHC, then let me try to answer it seriously. Event riders talk about rhythm (and really forward, balance and straightness too) as a short-cut to "finding a spot." We don't focus on the term "finding a spot" because so often that will cause a rider to pick pick pick down to the fence and end up there with no impulsion and no energy -- very unsafe to a solid fence. In x-c, riders are taught to maintain the rhythm and forward impulsion so that if they have to shorten the horse's stride, they can do so and still have enough energy in the step to jump well. Similarly, with a consistent rhythm and impulsion, one can move forward to a fence if you are going to end up a little long.

Let's not start playing h/j are better riders than eventers. We can all pull out our horror stories of the eventer-from-hell tearing around like mad, or the h/j rider who only gets on her horse for ten minutes before she goes in the ring after the trainer has schooled it to death. Stereotypes go both ways, and are probably equally unfair.

msj
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:24 AM
"A wonderful steady rhythm can put you anywhere from 12" to 1' out."

Excuse me, but I have always been under the impression that 12" (inches) equaled 1' (foot). /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Is this what was called 'new math' about 30+ yrs ago????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

msj

tle
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:29 AM
I agree with riley. this whole thread is nothing but a troll feast! After this... I'm done with it (but of course HAD to get the last word in /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )... then again, my email is available.

No, by "let the horse find the fence" that doesn't mean to just sit like an abcess and run at the fence in the old "close your eyes and kick" method. You're still setting the horse up with the correct balance and rhythm and ensuring that he's still going forward to the fence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And lots of you say you don't know what eventers I have been talking to, but obviously they are here saying "just ride a rhythm and let the horse figure it out" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... p*ss on you too!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Yes, Now I've had it. FHC... go back to troll-land.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

eventer_mi
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:34 AM
I have to agree with everyone else on this list. As a hunter-rider-turned-eventer, I know what happens when you start looking for your "spots" every time you jump. The vast majority of us start to pick, pick, pick until we can see a "spot", and by that time, the horse has completely run out of impulsion and the jump is iffy, at best.

Arriving at a good "spot" isn't some predetermined placed on the ground - it's a point in stride. A hunter can arrive at the perfect "spot" completely on his forehand and make an ungainly, unsafe jump out of stride; an eventer or a showjumper can add forever down a line and make a beautiful jump from a bit long or a bit deep, as long as the hocks are kept on coming under and the balance is correct. I don't want to be mounted on a hors that relies on me to make decisions for it all the time XC - that's too dangerous. What we ask of our partners is that they learn to grow a "fifth leg" to help out with the decision making process over uneven terrain, less-than-perfect ground conditions, and solid obstacles taken at speed.

When you can get out of your perfectly groomed arenas and accomplish this, you have every right to judge us. It's not about looking pretty - it's about being effective. And effective isn't always the prettiest picture in the book, but it's safe.

So, if you're asking why eventers aren't taught to see their distances, I ask you - why aren't hunter riders taught not to jump on their horse's necks? I see this far too often, and, IMHO, that's far more dangerous than coming in a bit deep to a jump. Get out of that arena and RIDE!

"Obstacles are those frightening things we see when we take our eyes off our goals." - Anon

Bensmom
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:36 AM
Well, I was gonna keep my mouth shut on this one, because I have an apparent riding learning disability -- I can't see a "spot" to save my life. My trainer has worked and worked with me on this one. I can, however, ride to fences in rhythm, but cannot possibly tell you what I did to adjust the horse to reach the takeoff spot in stride. Very frustrating to not be able to intellectualize this, and it has really affected my ability to ride stadium. Which is why I haven't competed since last spring, and why I am working so much on this at home.

However, this topic is really an overgeneralization. Finding a "spot" and counting strides is not an obsession in the eventing world, I believe in part, because we aren't judged on it. The hunter riders that learn this skill so early do so because they know that x line is 7 strides, and y is six and if they do more or less, they could lose the chance to pin in the class. Does this mean that this ability makes them safer? I don't think so.

But, regardless I too, would take issue with the fact that eventers are not trained to do these excercises. My trainer worked for Jack LeGoff at the Team when David and others were coming up as resident riders. One of the excercises she said they did was to set up a standard line of say 7 strides and then see how adjustable their horses were -- i.e. can they get 9 in the line, can they get 11? It is very interesting when you realize that the important question is not whether you can recognize 7 perfect strides, but can you take back or lengthen your horse to get to a better distance for not just that fence, but for what comes after that fence.

And Bruce's problems last weekend aside, his ability to "see" a spot is incredible. For a couple of years, I've been at the Tummy Tickler at Red Hills which is before the turn to the water and has a long straightaway leading to it. Watching high level riders approach is always cool, but Bruce can "see" his spot much farther back than anyone else, and make his adjustment to his horse there (like 10 strides out) and then meet the fence perfectly balanced and in stride. Absolutely awesome to watch -- my non-eventing husband could even see it.

If anyone wants to send me the ability to "see" a spot, Kelley and I would *both* appreciate it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, by "let the horse find the fence" that doesn't mean to just sit like an abcess and run at the fence in the old "close your eyes and kick" method. You're still setting the horse up with the correct balance and rhythm and ensuring that he's still going forward to the fence <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed, tle. in my experience riding, it is actually HARDER to do LESS on your horse. as i becamed more experienced and in tune with my horse the less i had to do. it's hard to explain... you have to ride it and feel it. the best way i can think to describe it is that the best riders mess with their horses the least, but that does not mean sitting up there like a bump on a log. my theory for a lot of things, not just riding, finding distances, etc is "Less is more."

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:41 AM
yea i figured out how to quote!
and i am done with this post, unless something else pi**es me off to the point that i MUST post.

Chaser
Mar. 18, 2002, 11:59 AM
Well, I wasn't going to say anything..but..!

When we eventers say we don't interfere with the horse and we just get in the correct rhythmn (oh I can never spell that word) we don't sit there doing nothing!! We are riding every inch of the way, totally focussed, but it isn't that noticeable when everything is going right. We take a pull here, a little extra leg, sit up a touch, but it's practically invisible a lot of the time to a casual observer. You might feel the beginnings of a "oh mum, I'm not too sure about this one coming up" and you just add a bit of leg re-assure and go on (we hope!).

I certainly don't focus on counting strides xc because I've got far too many other inputs/outputs going on, but I do know if I'm right or wrong, and do something about it if it's the latter.

Also, I would point out that during the off season in the winter, when we have no events, many eventers take their horses show jumping and to do dressage. I don't know if they do hunters too (because we don't have those classes where I am). They quite often win too!

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:18 PM
Well, if we are going to pick on one dicipline versus another, I think that hunter kids shouldn't be showing if they can't get their own horses over the course the first time. Yet it is commont practice on the A circut for a trainer or more experienced rider to take the ponies over the actual fences that they will jump in the day's classes before the kid gets on to show. Eventers don't school their fences ahead of time. --Jess

Colin
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:Eventers don't school their fences ahead of time. --Jess<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe they should?

KellyS
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:25 PM
FHC - Your "holier than thou" attitude is rather unprofessional and rude. I don't know what you are trying to prove other than how uninformed you are about eventing. It's quite obvious from the generalized statements you have made.

There is no reason you couldn't have posted a more open discussion about how to improve basics for eventers. I mean, every discipline has those riders who are lacking in the basics whether it be hunters, dressage, eventers, etc.

But, to come on the Eventing Board and make an attack without having the facts is enough to ruffle anyone's feathers.

Unfortunately, just because little kids can jump 2' fences from decent spots in the ring doesn't mean they can ride. I see more "ring" riders that think they are "good" riders because they can jump a course perfectly. I used to be one of these. But, when you are faced with open fields, hilly terrain, ditches, banks, and solid obstacles, you realize just how uneducated you seat and eye are.

However, I believe that once you stop "looking" for a spot, you then find the distance. Riding is so much more feeling than mechanics. That is the biggest revelation for many riders, one that you seem not to have had. Otherwise, you wouldn't be berating the eventers on "spots".

Please get some sleep. It's disappointing to see some posters getting so belligerent against a sport that they don't truly understand.

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
Quote: "Originally posted by JAGold:Eventers don't school their fences ahead of time. --Jess"

Maybe they should?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so. There is a previous thread that discusses schooling and preparing for upper level XC questions. The idea is that the horse and rider should have all of the skills in place to answer a question, not simply drill one obstacle until they can negotiate it sucessfully. I think of it as the difference between memorizing a list of facts for an exam or standardized test versus knowing the subject matter and therefore being prepared for whatever is on the exam.

Also, there would be huge practical difficulties with schooling the fences. Cross country is physically demanding for the horse, so schooling before the event, as at a h/j show, would result in tired horses and could lead to more, rather than fewer, accidents. Also, people might be tempted to enter a higher level than they are prepared to handle, on the theory that they could practice first.

But really, the problem with schooling is that it would change the fundamental test of eventing: can you and your horse answer these questions. At an event, only the rider (i.e. NO TRAINERS) can ride the horse after 3:00 pm the day before the competition begins. (And no drawreins, either!) What you see out there are the riders getting things done. --Jess

jr
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:32 PM
Lets not pit one discipline against another. For every stone one discipline throws at another, there is one to throw back. What a collossal (sp?) waste of time!!

You often see A circuit trainers putting experienced kids on green ponies, or on ponies that are being ridden by extremely young and experienced riders. It is part of the process they use for bringing a pony or rider into the showing process, and ensuring they have a constructive experience. I've seen similar things at small horse trials.

Anybody who thinks their particular discipline has a corner on the horsemanship market is ignorant -- and destined to remain that way.

Colin
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:33 PM
....did you really think I seriously was suggesting eventers to school?????

Humm.....I must have posted something serious lately?????....just trying to lighten up this intense topic.....which, BTW, will end up with no "winners"....only a whole lot of frustrated people that are pissed b/c they couldn't get their points across to hard headed individuals.

We're all hard headed, and we all have opinions.

This may be one of those topics that would be best if everyone "agreed to disagree????" /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:

You often see A circuit trainers putting experienced kids on green ponies, or on ponies that are being ridden by extremely young and experienced riders. It is part of the process they use for bringing a pony or rider into the showing process, and ensuring they have a constructive experience. _I've seen similar things at small horse trials. _

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At any recognized horse trials, it is against the rules for anyone but the competitor to ride or school the horse after 3:00 pm the day before the competition. (Exception: one designated groom may ride the horse on a loose rein to and from the schooling/competition areas.) So, if you have seen riders besides competitors schooling event horses, you were either at an unrecognized event (which is not comparable to an A show) or witnessed a violation of the rules.

I don't have anything against more experienced riders competing horses to give them good goes and experience. I'm just suggesting that to compete in recognized shows, event riders have to have the skills to do it themselves, whereas hunter riders can still rely on the crutch of a professional school or warmup ride.

And I am certainly not arguing that event riders have a corner on the market, so to speak. I'm simply giving examples of the specific skills eventers have relative to hunters, since the original poster brought that into question. --Jess

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:39 PM
Colin, lol, I know better, don't I?

(Your attempt at humor is appreciated, abet after the fact!) --Jess

KellyS
Mar. 18, 2002, 12:43 PM
Thanks Colin....

You're right. And I see your sense of humor!

I won't go back and erase my previously heated post, but I do believe that the top professionals in each sport do have a respect and understanding for other discliplines.

Unfortunately, sometimes it is those who have not had the experience and expertise of these professionals who throw the biggest stones. I actually don't work with an eventing trainer, but instead an upper level dressage and an "A" circuit hunter/jumper trainer. Neither of them have ever expressed the negative opinions of eventing that I've seen here, instead they use concepts from each sport to enhace their own horses.

So, signing off for the day....

jr
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:02 PM
JAGold,

You make a big assumption. I've seen people, at horse shows and horse trials do it themselves, and wind up on the floor, do scary things, and have less than constructive experiences. Sometimes scaring the horse and themselves in the process.

Just because you perservere and do it yourself, does not make you more competent. Sometimes the most constructive thing you can do is ask for help. Does that mean don't compete? -- not in the h/j world which has a different orientation than eventing. Does that make young/green hunter/jumper rider more or less competent than their event counterparts? No, just different.

[This message was edited by jr on Mar. 18, 2002 at 04:14 PM.]

JAGold
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:13 PM
Jr, that's right. But eventing rules encourage riders to ask for help at home, schooling, or clinics, and not to go to a show until they can do it themselves. Of course there are exceptions. But as you said, there are scary situations in all types of competitions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just because you perservere and do it yourself, does not make you more competent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having the skills to do it yourself does make you more competent than someone who does not have the skills to do it him- or herself. I'm not saying that all event riders are better than all h/j riders, or that eventing is better than h/j. I am saying that eventing encourages well prepared riders, because they have to do it themselves.

(I actually don't have anything against professionals or experienced riders schooling horses at h/j shows in most situations -- I think big eq riders should do more of their own prep -- if you read my original point, I was simply using this example to respond to the charge that event riders cannot perform the basic excercises that h/j kids can. And just as not all event riders who "perservere and do it themselves" do it well, not all h/j kids in the 18" or 2' divisions can find distances or adjust strides. That was my original point. Please don't blow it out of proportion /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) --Jess

Jair
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:

And, no I would never want to event on a horse that needed to jump from the perfect stride every time, but to be able to use their athletic ability and boldness to get me out of trouble if needed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uhm Hello? This is exactly what everyone here has been trying to convey to you FVH. Are you not listening? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As a BB Guide I'm going to put myself forward and say that IMO your use of this forum as some sort of personal garbage disposal for your pent up anger is incredibly selfish and unconstructive. It is also downright rude. I politely suggest that you refrain from posting such contentious drivel the next time you have a bad day /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for your comments, I very respectively suggest that you do some reading before you attack a sport of which you do not seem to have any experience or knowledge in. Lucinda Green has some super books out there which will probably answer many of the questions you have put here, and as one of the best in the world, you would do well to heed what she says.

For a short taste here is one of her articles:

Lucinda Green Inverview (http://www.horsemagazine.com/Feature%20clinics/feature_clinic.html)

goobs
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:31 PM
The last thing I will ever do is start getting picky and counting strides on xc. The terrain is UNDULATING it is NOT a manicured ring with jumps. I saw a woman ride in a clinic at P level. She is a hunter rider and a very good hunter rider - but her xc STUNK. It was obvious that yes, she was counting her strides, trying to make it all look pretty and her form over the jumps was dangerous. Our clinician pointed out that if her horse tripped or stumbled she would have gone face first into the water, but other than that everything was very neat and pretty. She also told the rider that if this was a hunter class she would have won, but this is xc a whole different ballgame. Hunter rules have no business in the world of eventing.

Hunters get too hung up on the striding and spotting and making sure everything is so pretty. I've seen a lot more crashes with hunters than in eventing at all levels.

I have never counted strides. I feel for my spot and my job is to prepare and organize my horse for the jump. Hunters also jump off the forehand, jumpers and eventers cannot and do not jump off the forehand otherwise there would be atrocious accidents.

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:46 PM
I wasn't going to post again, but here I go.... It is obviously a slow day at work and I have too much time on my hands so I'm following this thread.

You probably see more H/J hitting their strides right b/c it is easier in the H/J ring to do that than on a XC course. I am not sying H/J is easier than eventing, just that getting your distances right is. Think about it, with lines that have 6ish strides b/w jumps and being in a ring where you can leave the rail and expect to have 10ish strides till you get to the jump it is MUCH easier to count AND see your distances b/c they are shorter and less strides.

In XC you may have (i am totally guesstimating here) anywhere from 30-80 strides b/w fences. You can't count that! Okay, well, you could, but you'd be wasting a lot of time and energy in trying to take the exact path that you walked earlier. Plus, your horse's stride is varying a lot more depending on terrain, etc.

Also, I am in agreement with JAGold that b/c event riders are encouraged to get help at home and then once at the show warm up their own horses, not ride the XC course before the show, etc, it does make them more competent than if they had someone "work through the kinks" before they got on. I have had experience in the H/J world and seen so many trainers or more experienced riders warm up kids ponies and horses for them to get their freshness out and deal with the stops in the warmup ring before the kid gets on. I think that one gets to know ones horse A LOT better if one has to deal with EVERY aspect of the horse's personality than to just get on when the horse has been warmed up and is going well.

Okay, hopefully thats it. I just think that FHC is DEAD wrong in saying that eventers dont have the basics that H/J kids have. Those were the first things I learned and what I built my riding on. We don't have these inside outside outside inside courses where you count 6,5,4,3,2,1. Seeing these distances becomes an aquired skill learned over time and the best eventers/event horses have the ablility to adjust at the last minute or many strides out in order to jump the jump from the safest and most effective spot.

jr
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:49 PM
JA Gold.

Peace. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Duffy
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:55 PM
Goobs. Boy, was your post helpful. Geesh! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JER
Mar. 18, 2002, 01:56 PM
FHC, we agree on one thing -- you've got to get some sleep.

Then, when you're well-rested, we'll watch you breeze round Badminton, or perhaps simply over the regular working hunter course of your choice. And without a horse, because presumably you have the riding skills.

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:19 PM
FHC, I'm a total novice in the horse world. Perhaps you'd run down the details of all the eventing you've done. You must have a lot of 3-days under your belt and I'm sure you'll be glad to share it with us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:21 PM
Is it just me or have you guys ever noticed that some people are much better at writing then reading? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:32 PM
FHC, your 3-day eventing history please... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

MKM
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MKM:

Seeing these distances becomes an aquired skill learned over time and the best eventers/event horses have the ablility to adjust at the last minute or many strides out in order to jump the jump from the safest and most effective spot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point is just that, but it should not be only the best riders that can do this, but riders at the low levels too. It is really not that hard of a skill to develop.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok, so we agree on that issue. what i am not getting is why you think event riders dont have this skill that h/j riders do. if you put a top junior hunter rider on a training or higher xc course, i'll bet you that they wouldn't always find those beautiful distances.
lower level eventers dont have the excellent "spot-finding" skills as the ones in the upper levels, that is why they are in the lower levels.
also, it is a hard skill to develop and takes time and riding....a lot. and it varies from rider to rider. some riders naturally have a knack for seeing distances from WAY out. others work hard at it for years and still have a hard time.

Janeway
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
It is really not that hard of a skill to develop. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And pray tell, just how good are you at this? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You are so obviously in an argumentative mood its unreal. In fact, you are just making yourself look less and less intelligent the more you try to make your very uneducated points.

I agree with Go-GoDog, where are your advanced eventing pictures and competitive results? I can't help but think after reading all of your replies, that you are preaching nothing but hot air.

Your attack on the lower levels of this sport and all riders' seeming inability to "ride for spots" is ridiculous /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I do not believe you know what you are talking about, and I suggest you take Jair's advice to not only read some information, but to take a pill and only come back when you are not pretending like Alanis Morisette a la "angry woman" /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I agree with JER too on the "horse as back up for rider", what a bizarre comment; What are you suggesting exactly? that the horse is only there if the rider is an idiot?? geesh.

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 18, 2002, 02:51 PM
Huh. No eventing bio from FHC. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Could it be that maybe they've never
evented? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I find it hard to think that someone would go on and on about how to do something if they really hadn't done it themselves. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

No, I must be mistaken /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif , I sure an eventing bio will be forth-coming from FHC soon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can't wait for the day I know something. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

Jupes
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:10 PM
I don't think anyone disputes the importance for a rider (in ANY discipline) to be able to adjust, (as well as other basics.) We all agree that. The *when, where and how much* when approaching a jump is what is subjective--depending on the horse, terrain, speed, type of jump, etc.

But why, FHC, be so callously insulting to eventers as a whole, claiming that we lack ability? Or can't take the trouble to learn the basics? That kind of generalizing is utterly absurd, not to mention immature.

This very VALID discussion of riding an approach to a XC jump could have been so much more productive, informative, and dare I say, pleasant. I'm all for differences of opinion, but I guess I just don't understand meanness and rudeness in any forum.

rusti
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:15 PM
God, Girl, where is all this coming from. I've read quite a few of your posts on the breeding forum and you have always come across as a caring, thoughtful person. So whats up with this?
Sleep deprivation? You've pretty much managed to put down and insult a very large group of people in one breath, or should I say a few strokes of the keyboard.
I personally have never ridden a cross country course other than a bit of schooling, stricly lower level stuff. All of my showing experience has been with h/j stuff, mostly jumpers back when jrs and ami/owner was 4'6"-4'9. The last competition I rode in was over 10 years ago. But I still participate as an owner-of a very awesome event horse. And have enough experience and enough of an eye to know good riding and training when I see it. So I think I am qualified to say that your comments are totally out of line! My horse has compteted in eventing for the last three years. I attend almost all of his events and can say that I have never met a more knowlegable, caring and skilled group of riders/trainers/grooms. OK, maybe on ocasion there will be someone that really has no business competing at the level they're entered but that is the exception-NOT the rule. I think your getting hung up on wording. What really is the difference between finding a good distance by riding in the right balance, rhythm, and speed and finding "a spot"? Isn't that how you get to the "spot"? And counting strides? come on! not on a cross country course-its comptely irrelevant!I've walked many courses with my horse's trainer-olympic/world championship trainer-I've never heard him say 80 strides to the next fence on course! I have heard many refernences to how footing, shadows and the jump itself will cause a horse to do behave or jump a certian way and calls for an adjustment in the ride. Even in stadium is it more important to know that a combination is 2 strides or that you'll have to ride the jump in quietly to get that tight distance inside the combination? Knowing a jump is 2, 6 or eight strides out is of NO value unless you know how to adjust and ride the related distances to achieve those strides!
Eventers are an awesome group of people. It is obvious from your post that you have not had a great deal of exposure to the sport and the people involved in it. My advice is to go out and get involved, once you do you'll be hooked and never look back!
Hey, and by the way everyone wish us luck, my horsey is doing his first intermediate this weekend at Poplar Place. Anyone going??

CdnEventer
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:25 PM
That is all about to change.
FHC, you do not event... maybe you dont realize that some riders see their distances, but the distances they see and pick arent perfect hunter distances... WHY? Because we need to be able to take off long for jumps like steeplechase fences that can be taken in stride and a long spot isnt a big deal. We also need to be able to get a short spot for something like a bounce on crosscountry.
We need to see a variety of distances and pick our takeoff spots safely... another reason we get short spots is because we will gallop up to it and the horse needs to put in that extra stride to see where they are going to land because they havent seen their landing til their at the fence.
I rode hunter for 2 years before I switched to an eventer barn. I can see distances, but believe me... its alot harder to adjust for the "perfect" (in your mind... for me it might be a bad takeoff for that particular fence) out on crosscountry.
Its unfortunate that 2 horses died this past weekend. But they were more then likely fluke things because ANYONE going intermediate and advanced can see distances, pick distances and can stay on a whole lot better then any hunter rider I have ever seen.
I have ridden in clinics with many top Canadian eventers, including our Canadian coach. He told me to get the right pace, then 5 strides away sit up, soften my contact and put my leg on. To 90% of the jumps we jump I let my horse pick the distance because he knows where he can jump safely from.
Certain fences (like bounces, coffins, water, drops) I do pick my distance and it is often a "short spot"... Other fences I ask for the long spot because its safe and my horse is alot happier taking the long spots...
Dont think for a second eventers can ride, cause we can. We have a way more effective position then any hunter rider I have ever seen. The top eq riders I know will fall off at the smallest spook... just because someone schooled the course for you, told your horse what the striding was, and then you get on and pose up their does not make you an effective or good rider.
Any single eventer at Training or above that I know could go in the hunter ring and make the striding, jump that whole 3' that you people jump and get the right distances... but Id like to see a hunter get on and ride a Prelim or above crosscountry course... it would more then likely be SCARY!
So for any of you that think just because your horse hits the jumps at exactly the "right" takeoff distance everytime so you are a better rider, think again. There is not "right" take off distance... there is a "pretty" takeoff distance that you hunter riders prefer... but that doesnt make it the only correct one or the "right" one.

Hopeful Hunter
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:28 PM
Uh, wellll....I'm a h/j rider. And I can tell you, from what I've seen in "my" world that eventers, as a whole, probably have MORE riding skills than the hunter princesses do.

Why do I think this? Because you don't see an eventer's groom lunging their horse for a half hour to make it "calm." Because eventers not only know what dressage means, they actually have to DO it on their horses (some hunter princesses -- the kids, mainly -- can't even be told what they're doing is dressage. It's "flatwork" ya know :-). And then there's that whole x-country thing -- a sure way to see if you really can ride (how many h/j riders gallop around the fields? I know I don't.) and EVERY eventer does it. Yes, some have more polish than others, and maybe you can bomb around and know nothing (I don't know if you can -- personally I'd doubt it, but...) but the reality is that eventers ride, and vary the way they ride, more than h/j riders ever do.

So, frankly I think it takes MORE skill, not to mention courage, to event. I know I haven't enough of either to do it -- and I'm one of the count strides/ find the spot & pace / make it took pretty hunter princesses in training!

TrakHack
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:


So, frankly I think it takes MORE skill, not to mention courage, to event. I know I haven't enough of either to do it -- and I'm one of the count strides/ find the spot & pace / make it took pretty hunter princesses in training!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I'm the halt and X/ 20m circle at B/ shoulder in DQ in training!

Seriously, I wish I had the ability and was brave enough to ride cross country, even over the easiest terrain and lowest jumps. It's the element of the uncertain which *really* tests your riding ability and confidence, which separates the women from the girls, if you will.

I say bravo to all of you who event and do it well! In the meantime, you can find me on a leisurely trail ride!

Well-behaved women rarely make history!

Cheez-it
Mar. 18, 2002, 03:56 PM
So when you see a rider on xc sitting up and waiting, or putting the leg on and pressing, they are not seeing their spots?

Also, your interpretation of patting the ground is a bit skewed.

I have lost all respect for you because of your ignorant and inflammatory attitude. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 18, 2002, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, some have more polish than others, and maybe you can bomb around and know nothing (I don't know if you can -- personally I'd doubt it, but...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hopeful Hunter, Come see me ride sometime!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

lilblackhorse
Mar. 18, 2002, 04:34 PM
God, I have read this whole thread, and I just have to really shake my head and wonder FHC....Phew, maybe you need some hormones or something.

OK, can't remember who it was, but you hit the nail on the head. My trainer used to train with LeGoff, and we do a grid where the horse's job is the one to adjust. But can I also adjust my horse's stride in a line from 5 to 6 to 7, and then to 4? Yep, most of the time /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ... Do I always find my perfect spot on a single? Nope, but I ride in balance, with good rhythm, and we get there together. Hey sweetie, the next time the event gurus can walk the course for me and tell me there will be exactly 45 strides at my speed inbetween my two XC jumps, then I bet you I will hit that sucker correctly! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...Get real lady.

Like GoDogGo, I too am waiting to hear what incredible experience you have riding XC...

You are a piece of work, and I can tell you right now that this little post of yours has cost your whole reputation on THIS ENTIRE COTH BB! ...you will have no more respect. Sure, had you just been tired and in a pissy mood and posted the original topic, I would have said "oh, bummer, she's tired.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )..but the fact that you continued to come to this thread and spread your ignorant views time after time...nope, you just blew it lady. You screwed up big.

For the rest of you, I say "bravo"...it's been a good discussion of how we do it....not an easy task on a well conditioned horse over uneven ground heading for quesitons the horse has never seen, nor jumps we have never jumped. I'd like a tape of this chick riding even Prelim...LOLOLOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

Duffy
Mar. 18, 2002, 04:42 PM
Ok, everyone....Breath in....Breath out....I'm sure the adrenalin is very cool for some of us for brief periods of time, however...I wouldn't want to see anyone having a heart attack over this!

Is everyone breathing a little easier now? I'm glad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wannabegifted
Mar. 18, 2002, 05:00 PM
It is really not that hard of a skill to develop.

ARE YOU JOKING ME? The best riders in their world spend their entire lives learning how to find a spot to a 4' high 5' wide XC fence every time, with different terraing, up banks, with ditches, with brush, with ground lines and without...are you honestly telling me that you never miss? if you never miss than I guess I will be seeing you in the olympics in 2004, because, you know even the mightly mark todd misses once in a while on a green horse, or from a mistake or whatnot.

BarbB
Mar. 18, 2002, 05:28 PM
ok, I have skipped to the (current) end of this thread because I don't have time to read it all. I hope that someone - or several someones - have already made this point, but just in case.....
most H/J instructors don't even teach riders to look for a "spot." Riding the rhythm at the appropriate pace is usually emphsized as more important. Looking for a spot often results in fiddling, picking, leaning, and creates chips and long spots. Knowing how far out you are from a jump is important and developing an eye for distance that will let you shorten or lengthen BEFORE you get to the jump is important and a learned skill, but you develop it by jumping hundreds of fences and not by looking for a (one)perfect spot. And it is probably used more in stadium jumping.
In eventing - on xc - distances are complicated by the varying terrain and the angle of the approach to a jump. My horse's stride is not the same running uphill to a fence or cantering thru water to a fence as it is in an arena approaching a fence on the flat.
My horse's inability to see the landing as he approaches a xc fence or his perception that the obstacle looks suspicious can cause him to shorten his stride even more than I might like, I have to adjust to that by asking for more impulsion, I can't insist at that point that he lengthen his stride back out. And approaching a xc fence I generally don't want to be in his normal big stride anyway. So my point - I think - is that seeing a distance, while a useful skill that is acquired thru experience, might be somewhat over rated as the correct way to jump a xc fence.
One of the most successful eventers in the history of the sport, Lucinda Green, says that she rarely decided where a horse should jump from, leaving that decision up to the horse - on xc. Her part of the job was to get him there balanced and at the right pace.
BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

BarbB
Mar. 18, 2002, 05:43 PM
I think about 3 pages of WWIII got posted while I was typing my innocuous little rebuttal.
sheeeeesh.......
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Tootsie
Mar. 18, 2002, 05:53 PM
Keeping a steady rythem will get a horse to the correct spot. Rythem, not lenght of stride. If you have a steady rythem than the horse might shortem or lenghten the stride directly before the fence, and it would not be very noticable because the rythem did not change. The example you gave with the students counting the strides means that counting out loud helps keep the rythem, which means that they find the correct stride. It is all about rythem and energy, wether in a flat show ring or down a hill x-c, the same principles apply.

The reason "patting the ground" is such a good trait is because the horse knows what to do with its feet. Trainers spend years teaching a horse to get in close when there is a bad distance. Eventually everyone misses and the horses are taught to pat the ground when this happens because it is ten times safer than leaving long. We dont prefer it over a perfect spot, just prefer it over a long spot.

I also want to clarify what it is to pat the ground. It is not a chip. a chip is when they loose impulsion for that smaller stride. Patting the ground means they have just the same amount of energy, and they rock back on their haunches to power over the fences. It is a smart decision on the horses part, they know what they have to do to jump the fence nicly.

We teach the horses to snuggle up closly to the fences because then they actually jump them. Getting a perfect spot sometimes means they can get flat, and in eventing that means knocking rails. If we get them in deep, with enough energy, they will jump around the jump. We jump through short distances in order to teach the horses this.

Seeing the distance is easy, doing something about it is not. I am always told to ride the canter, not the fence. If the canter is good than the fence will take care of itself. It always does. Think what you want of eventers, but there is much more to distances for us than meets the eye.

"The Assyrian program of exterminating various ethnic groups generally failed to promote cultural diversity."-- Non Campus Mentis

jr
Mar. 18, 2002, 05:59 PM
Tootsie... great explanation of patting the ground.

Watch good jumpers -- they do it to. Tight combinations, short lines in jump-offs etc.

MsRidiculous
Mar. 18, 2002, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Keeping a steady rythem will get a horse to the correct spot. Rythem, not lenght of stride. If you have a steady rythem than the horse might shortem or lenghten the stride directly before the fence, and it would not be very noticable because the rythem did not change. The example you gave with the students counting the strides means that counting out loud helps keep the rythem, which means that they find the correct stride. It is all about rythem and energy, wether in a flat show ring or down a hill x-c, the same principles apply. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly what I was going to say, only you probably said it more clearly. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, and I too am deeply offended by this. Lack of sleep is no excuse for personal attacks on an entire group of people and something that they love dearly. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-Amanda

True Southerners grow up knowing the difference between "pert near" and "a right far piece."

DMK
Mar. 18, 2002, 07:24 PM
oooooh, I confess I only made it through page 2 of this little love fest when all I could think of was how very similar this was to the good old days when certain eventer type members would pay a little visit to the h/j forum and spread a little generalization around...

Sucks to be cast in a general light, doesn't it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just in case you CAN find a distance, and you are a pretty capable rider (I'll just assume it's the majority out there), being painted with this brush probably pisses you off just as much as all those h/j riders felt when THEY read the "h/j types can't really ride" discussion or a "h/j riders couldn't find their way out of the barn much less around a course without their trainer" series of posts.

Oh yea, and the concept that it is harder to do less than more? Trust me, the hunter riders understand this philosophy FAR MORE than the eventers ever will. Less is More is really our only Commandment! None of that silly dressage, or racing around a xc course, or trying to jump faster than the last person in stadium. Just 8 fences done to perfection that can only be considered truly perfect if we looked as if we had done absolutely nothing to make such a rare event occur. It's the other 364 days of the year you kill yourself trying to create effortless perfection. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

DMK
Mar. 18, 2002, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tootsie:

We teach the horses to snuggle up closly to the fences because then they actually jump them. Getting a perfect spot sometimes means they can get flat, and in eventing that means knocking rails. If we get them in deep, with enough energy, they will jump around the jump. We jump through short distances in order to teach the horses this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

tootsie - have to say your description of patting the ground would have done GM proud - excellent explanation of a concept that is easy to feel and hard to describe.

Now, about that flat jump, perfect distance concept you got going there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Deep Distance is Job #1 for jumpers (and to a lesser extent, hunters). You don't think it was sheer luck that gets all those GP and A/O jumpers over those oxers do you? Nope, it is ALL about riding to the base of an oxer at those levels.

As for verticals, one absolutely stands off those a bit more in the jumpers. But "flat" does not arrive solely from standing off a jump. "Flat" arrives from a loss of rhythm and package. Arrive at a vertical without rhythm and package, and you chance a rail. Arrive at a vertical with rhythm and packaging, but get deep to it, and it's the rider's turn to bail out the horse by waiting with his body. Ideally you want rhythm, package and to stand off it enough to create the arc.


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

tle
Mar. 18, 2002, 07:49 PM
Bravo on the description of patting the ground. I kept trying to find the right words to get into that, but never did (probably too p*ssed).

DMK... as one who is probably guilty of a few jabs at the hunters, I hope you know that there are parts of your "world" that I would love to emulate... just as there are parts that I wouldn't give $.02 for. Even? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ok... how's this for "finding the correct spot"? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

Sannois
Mar. 19, 2002, 04:12 AM
Jim And Easter Parade??? Too Cool!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Those who would give up
essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin
Franklin, 1755

Elghund2
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:11 AM
I think we should always be looking for ways to increase the safety of the sport but be careful not to dumb it down. You can look at other exteme sports for examples of this. In skiing many advances have made to improve skiing. Along the way they have made it much easier to learn how to ski through technology changes. The downside to this is that it has made difficult terrain seem more accessible to the average skiier. The last time I skiied out west, a ski patroller was lamenting on how many more injuries that they were seeing in the afternoons as these people thought that the technology provided all the safety they needed.

On building out courses or setting standards we have to really balance accessibility and safety. If we make the sport too accessible at the higher levels then you will have more injuries and tradegies because you will invite in the unprepared.

I personally think that the standards for moving from one level to the next should be made more stringent. Also, for the lower levels I think running stadium before XC would be a good idea with competitors needing a minimum score to move on to XC.

CdnEventer
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:18 AM
I dont think you can say if you have a score over "x amount" you cant go crosscountry.
My dressage isnt great because I do ride a greenie, he also is a one or two rail horse (were working on that though) but he has never gotten a crosscountry penalty in his life.
Are you telling me that because I had a dressage score of say 59, and then had 3 rails I couldnt go crosscountry cause my score was 74... even though I paid my entry and there is nothing about my crosscountry that is meaning I cant go.
Its not fair to the people who dont necesarily have the dressage score, to not let them ride crosscountry.

CdnEventer
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:20 AM
Of course, if they DO run stadium first and you get ELIMINATED, by all means, dont let them ride crosscountry.
Though sometimes I think its a good schooling experience to let them go crosscountry at the lower levels... Training and above if you cant get around stadium, you shouldnt be allowed out on cross.

Elghund2
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:40 AM
Spotlight: I should have been clearer. I was talking about a minimum or maximum stadium jumping score. I think if someone is having a hard time going around a stadium course then it is likely they will have a hard time with XC. I don't think you're ability to score in dressage is necessarily related to your ability to do stadium/XC. With that said, I think doing dressage well will enhance stadium/XC.

As far as a schooling experience is concerned that is the purpose of training and schooling competitions. It should not be being done at recognized competitions.

DMK
Mar. 19, 2002, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:

DMK... as one who is probably guilty of a few jabs at the hunters, I hope you know that there are parts of your "world" that I would love to emulate... just as there are parts that I wouldn't give $.02 for. Even? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know the same holds true over here, right tle? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Pam... regarding that particular rider... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If I wasn't genetically incapable of it, it's threads like these that would inspire me to get all pollyannish and say "gee, we can all learn something from every discipline!" But as I said, I lack the gene, and I think that should be perfectly obvious to just about anyone with any depth of experience.


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

tle
Mar. 19, 2002, 06:34 AM
Sannois... yes. that pic is of Jim Graham and Easter Parade at The Hague (what Jim calls his "best ever" XC round). AND... to tie it into this thread even better, Jim is one of those wonderful coaches who is always telling people if you get to the fence with the correct mix of Forward, balance and rhythm, there is nothing that you can't jump. FHC... *HA!*

DMK... absolutely! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Though sometimes I think its a good schooling experience to let them go crosscountry at the lower levels... Training and above if you cant get around stadium, you shouldnt be allowed out on cross.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One problem with letting E'd riders go XC is the liability issue. Insurance doesn't necessarily cover E'd riders as technically they are no longer part of the competition.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And the tribal suicide continues... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Remember we're on Wednesday this week!

rileyt
Mar. 19, 2002, 06:39 AM
Pam- If your point is: Jumper riders ride better jumping courses than event riders. (Guess what, dressage riders generally ride better dressage tests than eventers as well) I think I would have to agree. But that's like saying that Lance Armstrong is a better cycler than the top Iron-Man Triathalon winner. Of course. If you "specialize" in show jumping, you should be better at it than someone who is a "generalist" and has two other phases to worry about.

As to that particular advanced rider... I'd be really suprised if she didn't know the difference between a 12 foot or 8 foot stride. Is it possible she was speaking generally? Or that she had done something in between the time she had last jumped on the bad striding? I will say, that I have pointed horses through "oddly" strided grids, and given them no help, specifically so that the DO learn to think for themselves some. I don't know the whole situation, but... maybe if you give her the benefit of the doubt, you could figure out why she might say something like that?

Pixie Dust
Mar. 19, 2002, 06:51 AM
Well, from reading posts on the H/J boards, they are not a bunch of "spot finding experts" anyway, but are all merely working on improving their riding skills. Geez, wasn't it Moesha who started a thread called "Pick, pick pick"??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, some great posts which were kind of a little mini-lecture (lecture in the good way) on eventing basics. I feel like I've been watching a riding lesson! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

NMS
Mar. 19, 2002, 07:30 AM
Two points to make here:

1. Eventers do dressage. The goal of dressage is to balance a horse better for more power from the engine (rear)--if a horse has the good balance he learned from dressage, and the power, he can jump from a number of spots safely, not simply the "correct" one for each fence. That is a very fundamental but important point to make.

2. That said, what do you think those people are doing walking around a stadium course at events? They are counting strides and planning corners. But it's nice to know if I leave one out or put one in I have a horse with the balance and the power to jump it safely and clean.

If you think eventers need to learn to count strides, then I'll put this on the table for you...I think hunters ought to learn the fundamentals of dressage.

Hopeful Hunter
Mar. 19, 2002, 07:39 AM
"hunters ought to learn the fundamentals of dressage"

YUP! That's why I ride with our DQ, and even took my hopeful hunter to a dressage schooling show and did two classes with him. All that bending and balance and moving off your leg stuff really does make a difference in getting that smooth-looking course!

I think that there's something that all of us - whatever our chosen discipline - can indeed learn from others. It may be that we learn that we think sport A is insane or sport B is as exciting as watching paint dry -- to an individual /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif -- but that's why we have options.

Sannois
Mar. 19, 2002, 07:56 AM
But I dont know how many would take you up on it! Ack, This could be a whole aditional can of worms... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Those who would give up
essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin
Franklin, 1755

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 08:29 AM
Oye, how to keep this fire going! LOLOL

I don't know any good hunter or jumper riders who do not incorporate the basics of dressage in their flatwork, myself included. One cannot have a straight horse without it. One cannot have an engaged hind end without it. One cannot properly go around a turn without it. It's just that they are not "judged" on their dressage when jumping a course of jumps. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lilblackhorse
Mar. 19, 2002, 08:41 AM
However, I do notice that our esteemed topic starter, the wonderfully talented "spot spotter" that she is, has not graced this topic since yesterday. Interesting....Oh, and like GO-Dog-Go, I am too still waiting for a little resume on all the events she has ridden in and the levels so that I can see for myself just how talented she is at finding a spot for her horse.

I just feel disgraced and KNOW that I have let my horse down, because I don't find his spot for him all the time, and help him around the Cross Country course every step of the way. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif . What a horrible event riders we all are. At least I know I am in good company /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

MKM
Mar. 19, 2002, 08:43 AM
Where is FHC? Did we scare him/her off?

Duffy- I grew up doing pony hunter stuff and never really learned dressage basics. But doing basic, local, pony stuff on a pretty much made pony I probably didnt need to do much but point and kick. But I will agree with you that the TOP hunter riders do ride their horses on the bit, not necessarily in a frame, but on the bit nonetheless, and do know dressage basics. And the Jumpers also, they have to to make those tight turns and adjustments.

But that is a whole other topic.

I want to know what FHC thinks of all the recent posts, do you still stand by your first post???

DMK
Mar. 19, 2002, 08:44 AM
Yup, Duffy, "all hunter riders not use, know or care about dressage" is right up there in sheer brilliance with "all eventers don't use, know or care about distances"!

But I always say one useless generality deserves 3,467 more... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

goobs
Mar. 19, 2002, 10:03 AM
Duffy - not knowing you at all, I don't understand why you didn't think my post was not "helpful" to this discussion. I was just putting another example "out there" to all the wonderful hunter people who look at eventers as riding by the seat of their pants (NOT). I do not know what discipline you ride, nor do I care. Any good horseperson does understand and know that the fundamental tools for riding would be basic dressage.

A good and knowledgeable hunter will already know that dressage basics are necessary for his horse. To date, I have never witnessed (and I live in a very heavily populated "hunter" circuit area) hunter riders doing flatwork correctly. They are ALL on the forehand, hunters work hard to stay like pretty statues on their horses and count and pick and count and pick. Dressage people and jumpers/eventers work very hard to work their horse and look as if they do nothing. The grand illusion.

Eventers/jumpers count/see strides but they don't obsess as much because (as stated before) they are correctly putting their horses in BALANCE, with HAUNCHES underneath as they approach the jump - the horse's job is to JUMP the rider's job is to set them up for the jump -as one instructor told me once, "dressage him up to the jump". Something hunter people cannot seem to understand or find difficult to grasp this very simple meaning.

SO WHAT DUFFY can you not understand how these very simple theories not relate to this thread and how is not helpful? It is black and white to me.

How anyone can criticize eventers for not "counting" strides and picking a spot is BEYOND ME. There is much much more to eventing than that.

I also find it very rude that someone with no understanding would start a thread like this with zero knowledge on the sport. This person must have zero knowledge to make a statement that started this thread. This person should maybe first get themselves to the Advanced level FIRST before making blanket statements. The journey that must be made to make it to Advanced is a TOUGH and demanding journey. If you haven't experienced it yet, then your comments about "eventers never learning to find a spot" is ridiculous.

One more thing: this isn't about hunters vs. eventers. It's about ignorance vs. knowledge.

Lisa Cook
Mar. 19, 2002, 10:19 AM
I've got to make a comment about Goobs statement of:

"To date, I have never witnessed (and I live in a very heavily populated "hunter" circuit area) hunter riders doing flatwork correctly. They are ALL on the forehand, hunters work hard to stay like pretty statues on their horses and count and pick and count and pick. "

I'm not sure what heavily populated hunter area you live in, but what you describe is in direct conflict with what I've seen & heard from hunter trainers. See my description of a Patty Heuckeroth clinic that I rode in last weekend over on the hunter/jumper forum - we spent a considerable amount of time working on letting the horses jump without using the reins - absolutely NO, NO, NO picking allowed either to the jumps or on the flat!

For what it is worth, I am an event rider who is currently taking lessons with a hunter/jumper trainer. All of my lessons have focused on getting my horse straight, in balance, in rhythem, on my aids correctly and with an engaged hind end. On the forehand? - absolutely not!

Pixie Dust
Mar. 19, 2002, 10:43 AM
I have worked with hunter trainers and jumper trainers and just LOVED it. Learned a lot. Yes, we were taught to keep the horse engaged, and no we were not taught to worry about spots. We were taught to work on the rythm....hrmmm where have I heard that before. BUT, hunter "dressage" and eventing dressage are really two different things. (As they should be.) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

Lily
Mar. 19, 2002, 10:46 AM
I'm used to the eventers playing nice and I check in at work to find this!!!

I don't like seeing generalizations made about any type of rider. They're usually unfair and inaccurate. Then again, the person making those generalizations usually looks pretty foolish in the end, so it all evens out.

Fairview, I don't appreciate you "looking for an argument" here. Keep it up and I'm locking this thread.

Sannois
Mar. 19, 2002, 10:56 AM
She seems to have nothing more constructive to say, if she ever did have in the begining, Heck I would love to know why she felt the whole post necessary?? She did say she was looking for a fight! "Troll" might just have gotten the clue! She never did identify her riding style or discipline! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Those who would give up
essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin
Franklin, 1755

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goobs:
The last thing I will ever do is start getting picky and counting strides on xc. The terrain is UNDULATING it is NOT a manicured ring with jumps. I saw a woman ride in a clinic at P level. She is a hunter rider and a very good hunter rider - but her xc STUNK. It was obvious that yes, she was counting her strides, trying to make it all look pretty and her form over the jumps was dangerous. Our clinician pointed out that if her horse tripped or stumbled she would have gone face first into the water, but other than that everything was very neat and pretty. She also told the rider that if this was a hunter class she would have won, but this is xc a whole different ballgame. Hunter rules have no business in the world of eventing.

Hunters get too hung up on the striding and spotting and making sure everything is so pretty. I've seen a lot more crashes with hunters than in eventing at all levels.

I have never counted strides. I feel for my spot and my job is to prepare and organize my horse for the jump. Hunters also jump off the forehand, jumpers and eventers cannot and do not jump off the forehand otherwise there would be atrocious accidents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was the post that I was referring to, Goobs. I don't have a problem with eventers not counting strides. I never said I did. I don't think they should, when riding x-country. (I'm not sure I could count that high /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) I never said I had a problem with eventers at all. I do, however, have a problem with any poster, (including fhc), making gross generalizations about any other discipline.

I'm sorry you saw a supposed hunter rider counting her strides in, I guess, an eventing clinic. Do you suppose that maybe she was trying to learn something? I'm sorry she wasn't as "secure" as some of your more proficient event x-country riders. (I have seen PLENTY who do not appear to be very tight in the tack either.)

Showing hunters IS about making what we do pretty! But, that doesn't mean we ride like crap either. I don't think eventing has to be ugly either! The good ones don't make it look ugly.

To say you've seen a lot more crashes in the hunters than in the eventers??!?!?!?!!? Oh, ok -I guess you mean a rail down? That's right. In x-country, one flips the horse if one hits the fence. Silly me.

Hunters jump off their forehand, unlike jumpers and eventers. Hmmmmm....Not from where I come from.

Sorry, Lily....

Janet
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:13 AM
Darlyn,

I hope you have got your much neded sleep and that the foaling was all good news.

Some background (and I don't think I am giving away any secrets). FHC runs a series of lower level combined tests (dressage and stadium), heavily populated at the 18" to Novice (3') level, and lightly populated at the Training and Prelim levels.

Like the jumper classes at similar heights, a large portion of the entrants ARE ignorant of the basics of pace, rhythm , balance, and striding. And some of them think that, becuase they got round a 2'6" course without any penalties (even though the audience was holding it's collective breath on every fence) they know what they are doing, and are ready to move up.

A lot of her comments ARE valid for that population. But most of them either stay at "baby novice" forever, or they see the light and learn to ride better.

But she also has had at least one Intermediate level horse/rider in her barn, and has several more who ship in to school, and she should know better than to paint everyone with the same brush. I attribute it to lack of sleep.

There is also a difference in terminology. In hunters there is a lot of emphasis on getting "the right number of strides". In eventing (like jumpers), the emphasis (in the ring) is more on getting to the take off "box" (not spot) with the right speed, rhythm, balance, etc. The better all of these are, the bigger the take of "box" is, and hitting the exact spot is less important. (This is also true of hunters, I have heard top trainers say that if the rhythm and balance are right, there are lots of "spots" that will work. But if the rhythm and balance are missing, there is no "spot" that will make a good jump). So you will hear eventer talk more about judging when they need to shorten, lengthen, rebalance, etc., than about the NUMBER of strides.

Cross country is something else. By its very nature, when you are travelling at a faster pace (as long as you are balanced and in rhythm) the takeoff "box" is MUCH bigger. It includes both the "stand back and fly" spot, and the "pat the ground" (as described by Tootsie) spot.

On some fences, depending on the terrain and what comes next, both of these will work. In other cases (for instance if there is a sharp turn, or a drop, on landing) the safe takeoff box is much smaller.

On cross country, it is the rider's job to get the horse to the right takeoff "box" with the right pace, rhythm and balance. But eventers tend to TALK more about the pace, rhythm and balance stuff, because they make the takeoff "box" bigger.

Janet
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hunters jump off their forehand, unlike jumpers and eventers. Hmmmmm....Not from where I come from.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duffy, we (the BB) have had this discussion before, and the concensus was that one of the things that makes the hunters HARDER is that you need to get a good, balanced jump out of a more "open" frame. In jumpers and eventing, you can go round with the horse more "rocked back", in a shorter frame. This is why it is easier to find/make a 3'6" jumper than a 3'6" hunter.

I understand your defensiveness, and I am not sure whether "on the forehand" is the right way to describe it, but it IS a difference in the way of going. And the "show hunter" way of going is, generally, not the safest way of going for uneven terrain.

Pixie Dust
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duffy:

To say you've seen a lot more crashes in the hunters than in the eventers??!?!?!?!!? Oh, ok -I guess you mean a rail down? That's right. In x-country, one flips the horse if one hits the fence. Silly me.

QUOTE]

OK, are you talking about Rolex**** or Novice level horse trials? At the lower levels, I've NEVER seen a horse flip at a horse trials and I don't even remember even seeing a horse crash at a horse trials (at the lower levels) though I'm sure it happens. But I have crashed myself, in a jumper class LOL, but that's neither here nor there. Let's at least try and compare comparable levels. Maybe, novice to green hunter?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

baymare
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:30 AM
For those who think that show hunters just hunt and pick and pose... Just feast your eyes on the incredible pic of Strapless over four feet in the horse show issue. That kind of brilliance can only come from the perfect match of pace and balance. It transcends discipline, and gives us all something to shut up and admire! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:31 AM
I apologize. My gander definitely was up, not just from this thread, and I took it out on the BB. I am sorry.

But admit it - wasn't it just a little fun to see Duffy get like that? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lily
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:36 AM
No need to apologize, Duffy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It seems like this is moving towards an interesting discussion about the different frames necessary for different types of riding. I'll be happy to participate more once I get home. But in the meantime, let's all play nice, okay- Lily's having a busy day at work! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RAyers
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:39 AM
Darlyn,

Pixie Dust
Mar. 19, 2002, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by baymare:
For those who think that show hunters just hunt and pick and pose... Just feast your eyes on the incredible pic of Strapless over four feet in the horse show issue. That kind of brilliance can only come from the perfect match of pace and balance. It transcends discipline, and gives us all something to shut up and admire! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, where's the picture??
Anyhoo, NOT ME, I don't think hunter riders "just pick and pose".

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

goobs
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:30 PM
Reed - extremely well said. My thoughts exactly.

Duffy - I guess you are a hunter rider. No problem. I usually keep my opinions to myself about the hunter world. BUT -(and there is always a BUT isn't there /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) rails down? Is that what you think I consider a crash or an accident? Come on! I have seen more crashes as in whole fences completely come crashing down (oh I've seen it at lower level events too but not nearly as much) MORE in low level hunters than in lower level events. Inability to execute very simple in and outs, cantering with the head pulled to the outside it just (to me) equals poor horsemanship. Eventing weeds out bad riding, hunters actually promotes it. I am not slamming hunter riders, but the majority of hunters at low levels are NOT learning the correct basics - at least in my experiences.

The woman in question DID ride nicely. She is a very GOOD actually and excellent Hunt rider, BUT she is not an event rider. Our clinician had even said that if she was at the Maclays (sp?) she would have won, but the style is ALL WRONG. To clarify further, the woman is very against anything that isn't Hunter, but out of necessity she has no choice but take on low level event riders as students. All her students get eliminated at events, they fall off, they get hurt. Her instruction is excellent for her Hunter students, BUT NOT FOR EVENTERS. Observing her jump the course of P fences and then observing people who event jump them, one could see a HUGE difference. In a "real" event situation she would not have made it.


The area I live in has big name hunter people and to date, personally, have not seen correct basic flatwork. That is because Hunter style does not require power from the hind end to jump their courses. The judges like to see the horses neck long and out in front (on the forehand) don't they? That is hunter style.

To impose Hunter rules onto the rules of the Eventing world is a no no. Each discipline has it's own style. To be outraged because eventers don't do it the "hunter" way, etc. is ridiculous.

tle
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The area I live in has big name hunter people and to date, personally, have not seen correct basic flatwork. That is because Hunter style does not require power from the hind end to jump their courses. The judges like to see the horses neck long and out in front (on the forehand) don't they? That is hunter style. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


hmmm... not exactly. necks out in front in a more open frame? yes. but CORRECTLY done, the horse is "open", not "on the forehand". Right? (duffy? dmk?) sounds to me like you've seen a lot of bad hunter (and if the whole class is bad, someone still has to win... therefore possibly perpetuating itself ... which I've seen a lot of... especially when it comes to poser and perchers, but then I rarely visit A circuit shows).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To impose Hunter rules onto the rules of the Eventing world is a no no. Each discipline has it's own style. To be outraged because eventers don't do it the "hunter" way, etc. is ridiculous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This point I would agree with. You did come down hard on our hunter friends in the rest of it, but if this was the point to the whole thing, I wholeheartedly agree.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 4... Me Thinks I Feel a Switch Coming -- but I'm still in mourning over Hunter /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Remember we're on Wednesday again this week!

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:36 PM
I NEVER SAID THAT HUNTERS AND EVENTERS SHOULD DO THINGS THE SAME WAY!!!

I DID, say, however, that if the different disciplines do NOT get together to clean up what NON-HORSE people think of our respective sports, OTHERS will do it for us.

Damnit. I apologized for going a little overboard. GIVE IT UP.

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:38 PM
Thank you, tle. I'm sure it was DMK who came up with that terminology. But, thank you for posting it.

Being different is a GOOD thing. Just think if all of us were competing for the SAME TYPE OF HORSES! Can you imagine the prices?!?!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Louise
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:45 PM
Yesh - settle down guys, I thought I was on the dressage forum for a minute!

You are gaining nothing by insulting each other's styles of riding - try to learn from each other for pity's sake!

If civility doesn't start reigning on this thread, it will be shut down.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

goobs
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:51 PM
TLE - you are right, I did come down hard on the hunters. Sorry to everyone. Yes, my experiences with Hunters has always been bad. In this area, if you are NOT a hunter you are NOTHING. I enjoy going to view a hunter show once in a while since it's so convenient to my barn. I've seen the schooling up to the A circuit. Unfortunately I never saw much that impressed me.

And yes that was the point of my post.

Duffy - yes being different is a very good thing.

nuff said.

MeanderCreek
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goobs:
The area I live in has big name hunter people and to date, personally, have not seen correct basic flatwork. That is because Hunter style does not require power from the hind end to jump their courses. The judges like to see the horses neck long and out in front (on the forehand) don't they? That is hunter style.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Streching forward and down does not equal on the forehand. Think of that strechy circle in your dressage tests - is your horse on the forehand then? I hope not!!!!

It is quite possible to ride a horse correctly from behind while encouraging him to reach forward and down to the bit.

Additionally, the most power from behind I have EVER felt from a horse was on a hunter. It was a regular working horse and he came off the ground like nothing I'd ever felt on an eventer and I've evented N/T and ridden a few P horses.

It might be fair to say that the lower hunter divisions at weekend shows don't typically encourage a horse to jump from behind with power, but it is alos fair to say that of lower level weekend events.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 01:56 PM
goobs - Where are you from? Come to visit and go to a great hunter show in Virginia, like Upperville, for example. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (OMG - I hope you're not from Virginia and have that low an opinon of us hunter riders!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

goobs
Mar. 19, 2002, 02:07 PM
No I am not from VA. In fact, a co-worker who was from Iowa and rode hunters out there came to ride with me one weekend. He hadn't been on a horse in 10 years. He wanted to ride a green TB mare (race trained lightly). I was a little nervous but let him. He really and truly impressed me. He was soft and quiet and the mare loved him. She was a bit flighty by nature but he was so incredible with her.

I do believe it's the area I am in - WHY I don't know because there is big money here. Oh well.

What I've seen are hunters with the noses completely out in front of them, not down in any way, you can see that they were all on the forehand.

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 03:25 PM
Not a terribly flattering picture - I know his nose isn't in and he's not exactly in a frame, BUT, he IS stopping up underneath himself, imo, and I KNOW he is not on the forehand! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This is "From Virginia" in between jumps at Deep Run this past year. (picture courtesy of ETBW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 03:30 PM
This is the u/s class. He's definitely more "on the bit" than one would like for a hack class. In fact, he looks quite like he could be doing a lower level dressage test! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (He's the one kind of in the middle with the blaze that looks like he might blow up any second...Gee - he DID! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 03:35 PM
This pic was taken a little late and again, is not the most flattering of either of us, but, I believe, shows that we could be ready for anything in a short amount of time.

Please know that I'm not trying to be obnoxious with these. I think Riley would have been a great event horse in his prime. He's brave, loves to jump, and has a pretty good self-preservation streak, thank gawd! Hmmm..I'm not sure he would have liked dressage much, though! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DMK
Mar. 19, 2002, 03:38 PM
Regarding that hunter frame, when done correctly, it is a work of art. It's also damn near the hardest thing to get done right, hence the reson you see it done wrong a lot.

It's a variation on long and low, which as any DQ worth her salt will tell you does NOT equate to "on the forehand"... Add to the long and low frame, this wonderful lift of the withers (caused by that extra engagement of the hind end) - it is so cool, you can just feel the withers get all big in front of you, and distances just appear like magic... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Then, as the horse approaches the fence, he slowly rocks back even more, while not losing an ounce of impulsion or rhythm, he takes off, and seems suspended for minutes over the top of the fence, giving a whole new meaning to the Jordanesque concept of hang time.

And the horse needs to do this by himself! Unlike creating the impulsion between hand and leg a la jumpers, the hunter must do this with minimal adjustment (invisible, really). Not at all unlike a good event horse from what I have read. It's just hunters make it pretty. Eventers make it effective.

Oh yea, and when it happens you get a picture sort of like this...


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 03:41 PM
Ahhh, comon DMK! That was mean to put that picture after mine!!! But, then again, who can look at Robbie with that VISION riding him?!?!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Ok - don't know why it didn't take my edit...In case ya'll never met the original "Duffy", here he is. I figure after you see his adorableness, you won't slay me too badly! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HonorsGlory
Mar. 19, 2002, 04:07 PM
Hold on there....maybe you should learn a little bit more about this sport before you start talking like that.

[This message was edited by HonorsGlory on Mar. 19, 2002 at 07:18 PM.]

HorseManiac
Mar. 19, 2002, 04:38 PM
Louise,

I think you are absalutely right. We shouldn't be putting other peoples sports down. Just because someones riding style isn't the same as yours doesn't make it wrong. You should try and find out more about the sport. It could be hunters, jumpers, eventing, or even barrel racing. You may just find something about the sport you never knew before. And hey, you might even like it!

DMK
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:03 PM
LOL Duffy, we were posting at the same time!!

But to be fair, here is what the same horse looks like when a good ammie sits on him and tries to pretend she knows how to do all the things she described above! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Lily
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:26 PM
Finally home from work and able to comment!

First of all, what great pictures! Duffy, is that little girl with the half-angelic, half-devilish grin you? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif DMK, are you willing to send Robbie up north for a little Lily-vacation? I even bake my own treats! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think it's great that we all have different disciplines we can excel at. I can certainly ride a hunter or jumper well but can't say I would have the same success in eventing, dressage, racing, etc. That doesn't mean I don't value the other disciplines- I just know what I'm best at and and stick to that.

I think all of us can learn valuable lessons from each others' disciplines. As a junior I had to take dessage lessons and ride over cross country course (which scared the pants off me!)- and I think that cross-training certainly made me a better rider.

Instead of speaking badly of other disciplines, let's all try to learn from one another. And Duffy is right- we all need to join together to improve the image of equestrian sports.

How boring would riding be if we all did the same thing the same way? Variety, after all, is the spice of life. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now remember- play nice! I don't want to shut this thread down- I think it has the potential to be a very interesting conversation.

Duffy
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:45 PM
Well said, Lily. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, that is little moi with Duffy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Here is a more flattering "huntery" picture of Riley and me - from Capital Challenge in MD. Yes, I know my hands are floating above the crest and I suppose my basis of support would have to be a LOT better if I were riding x-country, /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but, I didn't fall off! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Happy riding and horses to all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Britney
Mar. 19, 2002, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
OK, then how many hunter riders can get 11 even strides in a 5 stride line?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I watched Karen O' Connor do it this year at a clinic
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Britney

*When the friends are gone, When the party's over, We will still belong to each other.*-Shakira

"People who say riding isn't a sport are afraid. In the game we play, the ball has a mind of its own."

rusti
Mar. 20, 2002, 06:13 AM
OOOOOPS, and still no resume from FHC!
Way to start a riot and run for cover!

RAyers
Mar. 20, 2002, 07:35 AM
When I was doing the jumpers we had a training game was did in lessons called "Name That Stride!"
The goal was to see how adjustable your horse was in a 5-8 stride line with the fences at 3'6"-3'9". You competed against the other riders in the lesson. The trainer would call out what stiding he wanted as you landed off of the first fence ("take one", "add one", etc.) Then we would see how many strides we could add without leaving the line. My record is still 15 strides in a 6 stride line. Now I just do this "game" to work on the front to back adjustablility of my eventer.

The point here is that we NEVER rode to a spot to get over the second fence. We rode a pace and adjusted distances by lengthening or shortening the stride. If we got to the base or left a bit gappy, it didn't matter so long as the horse was comfortable jumping out of his step. This is the same idea applied to the eventers on XC, it is just we do it at a gear or two higher than is done in a stadium.

Reed

eventer_mi
Mar. 20, 2002, 08:54 AM
I have to admit that my feathers were all ruffled by the original poster, but have since calmed down quite a bit reading all of the informative posts on the subject.

One of the most effective, soft, and prettiest Novice rounds that I have seen was by a local woman. She is 50ish, and her mare is is a nice little TB chestnut that she trained herself, and she wins. Almost all the time. Her dressage is the equivalent of the 70's (for straight dressage), her XC and her stadium look like hunter rounds, and I mean this as a compliment - they're gorgeous, flowing, balanced, and rythmic. I envy her. I would love to be a top-notch hunter rider - unfortunately, with my build (shortish, with long torso and long thighs), I'm not exactly cut out for the hunter ring. Neither is my TB, who's quick off the ground and catty as a leopard. But to be able to just float over 8 fences and make it look easy - wow. Eventers have a tough job, but so do the hunters - just in a different way. I would kill to catch a ride on Rox Dene or Strapless - can you imagine the ride? In fact, if I ever lose my nerve XC, I'm heading back to the hunter ring, XC saddle and all.

"Obstacles are those frightening things we see when we take our eyes off our goals." - Anon

Magnolia
Mar. 20, 2002, 08:59 AM
My current trainer who events could compete in the hunter ring... and win, and my old hunter trainer used to event and was very good at it!

Good riding is good riding. If I pick and lean and 4-beat down a 6 stride line set at 84 feet, I get a crappy jump. If I do the same to a hanging log going down hill, I get a crappy jumps, and possibly a concussion! If I ride forward and positive with a light contact, I get good jumps to both!

I think what makes eventing challenging is the difficulty of the situations around the jumps, but it doesn't have to look pretty. What makes hunters so hard is you need to get 8 perfect, similar jumps, keep an even pace, and get clean lead changes. That is pretty darn hard, can't say I did it to many times.

One more point. In the wee beginner hunters, often times a missed distance = no ribbons, hence the importance placed on finding distances, getting strides etc. In eventing, if I'm going beginner novice, chipping a fence won't kill me. I'm probably trying to deal with pace andcontrol and issues different from a hunter rider.

Viva la difference!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Lord Helpus
Mar. 20, 2002, 04:27 PM
On the subject of event riders who see their spots: what famous three day rider was no where to be seen last weekend (at least as far as I noticed), and yet was showing at the A show at the very same North Carolina Horse Park this weekend (and getting the correct number of strides down every line.....)

give up?

really?


Mike Plumb, who took lessons from Patty Heuckeroth over a period of several years to perfect his eye for s/j.....

Elghund2
Mar. 21, 2002, 06:35 AM
One thing that I think would be interesting is to study penalty points accumulated on XC prior to major accidents. Maybe a way to enahnce safety is to pull a horse/rider combination that has accumulated X number of points.

Erin
Mar. 21, 2002, 07:29 AM
They already do that, actually. You're allowed a total of 4 refusals for the entire course (unless they've changed that rule this year). The 5th cumulative refusal is elimination. The 3rd refusal at any one fence is also elimination.

Boy, I'm glad I was away for most of this discussion... nothing like a broad-sweeping, ill-informed generalization to piss an entire group of people off, eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Queen Kiwi
Mar. 21, 2002, 11:33 AM
Fairview Horse Center...

You said how Eventers dont find there spot, they leave it totally up to the horse. (Sorry o all hunters) But what about your hunters? I bet there are LOTS that cant find a stride, and yes, they do just sit there, and do nothing, and let the horse do all the work. Does the word 'Packer' come to mind? Im sure that some of those hunter riders who always win first place, but them on a green horse, and they probably wont beable to find the striding. Why? Becuase they dont know how. Without the packer they wouldnt know 2 strides from 5. (Not all hunters are like this!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Just a friendly word of advice, dont go jumping to conclusions!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Gotta Love Those Chestnut Mares With Lots Of Chrome /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Evalee Hunter
Mar. 21, 2002, 06:08 PM
I have NEVER ridden in a horse trial. I rode Western for many years & I have over 50 years experience around horses but I have pretty much never ridden English. However, I have helped my daughter horse trial for the last 10 years, from elementary to 1 star (probably 120 horse trials or so) plus I volunteer at probably 6 to 8 horse trials a year--scribe for dressage, scribe for stadium, fence judge xc, help score, set up courses, you name it.

Now you know where I am coming from--observation but not 1st hand experience.

Some riders are scarey--I was at a horse trial at Fair Hill some years back (recognized, lowest level was training) & I was watching a gentleman in warmup for stadium--he was probably in his fifties, like me. I thought he looked a little unprepared & then I overheard his coach talking to him & it became obvious the older gentleman could not tell what lead his horse was on & didn't really understand leads at all!

I have sat with the stadium judge & been shocked (recognized trials again--training through intermediate) as almost everyone banged around stadium at every level--not too many rails down as the rails were heavy & in cups & not very many stops but lots of clunking & banging. Not pretty to listen to & not pretty to watch!

Yes, there are some good event riders, but I am afraid they are too few!

I showed my daughter this thread & she read all of it & felt very upset & insulted like most of you, but I do think maybe FHC was onto something, at least in some cases.

GO-dog-GO
Mar. 21, 2002, 07:21 PM
I told a friend about this thread who rides advanced [went clear XC, SJ] at SP last weekend] and she laughed so hard she fell on the ground with tears coning out of her eyes.

She said 'we' can't count strides but HJ'S can't ride XC either... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

Sannois
Mar. 21, 2002, 08:36 PM
There are too few good event riders!!! Yikes, I feel sorry for you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Ever been to Rolex??

"Those who would give up
essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin
Franklin, 1755

Evalee Hunter
Mar. 22, 2002, 04:57 AM
I don't doubt there are plenty of good event riders--I just think they are too small a percentage. Undoubtedly, those that get to Rolex are the cream of the eventing crop. I have seen many good riders go--the 2 horse trials I specifically mentioned included Phillip Dutton, Bruce Davidson, Buck Davidson & other Olympians among the riders. None-the-less, a hefty percentage of the riders were neither pretty, nor effective. Unfortunately, when a rider gets around stadium clean, even if they clunked the top rail HARD on 2/3 of the jumps, because they didn't have a rail down & made time, they tend to remember it as a good ride. I don't think clean is necessarily a good ride.

I disagree with FHC to the extent that I think there are a thousand or more excellent event riders in the US. (FHC seemed as if she could think of only one.) There are probably several thousand decent to good event riders. However, that still leaves maybe 5,000 (about half the USCTA membership) that could probably use significant improvement, particularly in stadium. I will say that, based on xc fence judging, most riders seem to ride as well or better xc.

There are many good riders--that doesn't change the fact that there are also many very poor riders. We may differ on what percent are excellent, good, decent or poor, but I bet all of us have seen some of the poor ones.

I am well aware I could not do what these riders do: I believe I made that clear at the beginning of my first post. Still, I think my powers of observation are OK & the quality & safety of riding, even in Area II which is a great eventing area, is disappointing.

Evalee Hunter
Mar. 22, 2002, 04:58 AM
that I do NOT know the solution to this.

I like that eventing is very independent-minded & I do not want to see eventing go to a coach/trainer model like hunter/jumper.

DMK
Mar. 22, 2002, 07:03 AM
Honestly, I have been around very few events in my life - did a few clinics and a horse trial, enjoyed the hell out of myself. No, I didn't have a clue about finding a distance back then, but it was novice level, so I didn't kill myself in xc, got around stadium, and still got a 7th out like 50 because I had a nice little obedient QH mare who got decent marks for accuracy and lousy marks for everything else in dressage.

But despite this limited resume, I don't believe Evalee is entirely wrong.

Now why do I think this? Because I see the SAME thing in hunters and jumpers! Especially at the lower levels! Sure, they generally have the basics on finding a distance because that is the thing they place the MOST emphasis on in those disciplines (a fairly critical concept when you ride related distances). But quite frankly there are a LOT of scary riders in the child/AA jumpers, and a lot of ineffective riders in the child/AA hunters (it's tougher to be scary in hunters, but it's easy to see a lack of finesse). This doesn't mean all of them will be that way forever, but I promise you, some will be.

And just like I could get around a novice horse trial AND place without knowing a lot about what I was doing, so can these scary and ineffective riders get around a child/AA level course in h/j land and they can place.

When you get to the A/O-Jrs, you weed out a lot of that sort of stuff, because, quite frankly, most people do have a sense of their own mortality. Again, there are some horses that are talented enough to cover their riders mistakes 95% of the time at this level. The other 5% generally results in the ambulance at the ring. And of course there are those that have no sense of their mortality, and scare everyone who watches. But you know what they say about God watching out for fools, drunks and small children...

Then we have the even higher levels in h/j land. And guess what (she says with a sarcasm born of impatience)? Yes, there are incompetent people at THIS LEVEL TOO!!! Maybe they could handle a lower level, maybe not. Maybe they can find a distance all day long but they can't RIDE a horse. Or maybe they can finesse it all day long but can't really get the job done when the moment calls for it. Maybe they can ride and see a distance, but can't train for shit. But they are there and everyone who has been at horse shows for any length of time has seen them. I was quoted at the trials for the 1996 Olympics for suggesting that for the good of the country we steal two highly talented horses from their current riders and place them in the Vintage Farm tent (Matz's farm).


So who here wants to step up and say that it isn't EXACTLY the same in eventing???


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

tle
Mar. 22, 2002, 07:27 AM
No, DMK, I think you're absolutely right. Hell, at Novice and even through some of my Training level experience, I *WAS* one of those scarey rides!! What changed? Simple... I wasn't content to just "get around" and scaring the bejeezies out of myself and generally feeling like I was only pulling the ride out by the seat of my pants. I wanted to learn and grown and be better and continue to progress. So I kept learning. I sought out the best people I could for lessons and clinics (including names like Karen O'Connor who I credit for teaching me the proper way to gallop and do drop fences, Stuart Black, Jim Graham who I credit for most other things, Mark Phillips, Jimmy Wofford and Cathy Weischhoff).

Unfortunately, the way everything runs now (from rules to legislation to societal norms), you can't automatically make a person want to learn and grow... especially if they haven't a clue to start with. Believe me, I see quite a bit of it myself. You want to go up to the person and shake them and tell them that if they would only _____ (listen, learn, do this, do that) they wouldn't be an accident waiting to happen. But you can't... well... you could, and I think I've tried, but that approach (unless you are asked) just doesn't work and the CCM (clueless club member) just rolls their eyes and ignores you (or anyone else who says that). No because they're dumb... they just don't know any better. Remember... that was me not so long ago.

What can be done to help? Well, the instructor certification is a good starting spot. Hopefully the knowledge will trickle down. But I also know there are a lot of people who won't be immediately affected by this program (if at all)... what about them? Well, this isn't an overly popular thought, but I like it -- make the requirements (courses, tests, etc.) HARDER. By dropping the "effort" required to complete a horse trial, you now have people entering and competing that are not prepared... simply because the requirements at the previous level aren't there. Aside from many Prelim courses, I tend to see the most "changes" in the standings during Training runs... people going too fast on XC, dropping rails and generally "goofing" in SJ. Novice in many cases is SO straightforward that people move up to Training before they're really ready because Novice afforded them NO challenge. Luckily, most aren't clueless enough (yet) to try the jump to Prelim... but I don't see that as being very far off. The changes made recently to the Training courses to help the Novice/Training jump have widened even farther the Training/Prelim jump... which was HUGE to begin with. Dumbing down the courses and questions to the lowest common cluelessness doesn't help anyone. One of my favorite quotes is You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong and I think it applies in this situation.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 4 recap... YEA!!! No more "boobie girl"... she's outta there. The rest of the lazy bunch is about to get their comeupance too... 'bout time (poor Hunter). Thanks MB for "the switch"! Back to Thursdays.

Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 07:42 AM
Well, it's obvious to me that Evalee is in a different reality than me. I go to low level events and see many, many good riders and few bad riders. There are "scary" riders in every discipline. There are hunter riders who don't know their leads too. Fewer "scary" riders in eventing than other disciplines IMO. Of course, I'm in area II, eventing mecca! LOL.

I'd like to see 20 of those "pretty" hunter riders who know how to find their spot every time, on a nice well trained packer in a well groomed enclosed riding ring, and see what percentage can "find their spot" on a fit TB, galloping across uneven terrain over unfamiliar jumps. But then, I'm just repeating what everyone else has already said. This discussion is completely pointless because of such widely differing perceptions. WELL, not completely pointless, I enjoyed some very nice, eloquent descriptions of what eventing is all about. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maybe if we all went together at an event and saw all the same riders at the same time, maybe then we could really talk. I'm not sure clanking rails in stadium is an indication of how good the riders are. We all know that stadium is the weak point in eventing, but if it's a 3-day, then it's also when the horse is the most tired. And the original post was regarding cross country.


Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

[This message was edited by bgoosewood on Mar. 22, 2002 at 10:51 AM.]

DMK
Mar. 22, 2002, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:

I'd like to see 20 of those "pretty" hunter riders who know how to find their spot every time, on a nice well trained packer in a well groomed enclosed riding ring, and see what percentage can "find their spot" on a fit TB, galloping across uneven terrain over unfamiliar jumps. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it past time to let go of that one?


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

JAGold
Mar. 22, 2002, 07:58 AM
I'm going to post an exerpt from a USEventhorse article about the author's experience at a Jimmy Wofford clinic. It addresses both the issue of a "spot" for fences and describes the preparation some very green horses and riders received from Jimmy, indisputably one of the best in the business:

"The second day was comprised of course work, once again with a lecture in the morning discussing the goals along with the changes made during the first day�s gymnastic work. The work in the first day of methodically training the horse to compress and lengthen, to become elastic, was now supposed to help the horse determine where to place himself in front of an oxer without galloping ground poles. Yet the rider was to ride as if the ground poles were placed and was not supposed to influence the horse other than adjust speed and impulsion well before the jump. Jimmy made a point of explaining that it is the responsibility of the horse to get over the jump. It is the responsibility of the rider to get the horse to the jump properly. In other words, especially at the novice level, the area of take-off in front of the jump is quite large and horses should be able to jump a 3� jump even with placing himself far from or close to the jump. The gymnastics on the previous day should have trained the horse to adjust himself in front of the jump so that he was comfortable jumping. The rider is to not only stay elastic on the horse, but to continue to ride afterwards as well."

This is the basis of jump schooling for event horses and riders: balance, lengthen, and shorten. It is being taught to low-level riders as well as very experienced riders. (Incidentally, though I hope that portion of the discussion is over, the author's notes also indicate that Jimmy does not believe there is one proper "spot.")

Are there bad riders out there, in all diciplines? Sure there are. But at some point those riders are responsible for their own failings: I maintain that the sport of eventing promotes safety, logical and methodological progression from one level to the next, effective riding, and access to instruction at all levels. And in my experience (competing through prelim on a variety of horses, working student positions with two top trainers, and grooming at international-level competitions), I have seen more good (as in, safe and effective) than bad riding. --Jess

KO
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:11 AM
IS THIS POSTER KIDDING?!! GET SOME SLEEP.

I just got back from the Conyers "A" rated show here in Georgia after watching a day of hunter and jumper riders in warm up and I saw lots of these people who were not riding distances properly or even cared. SO let's not start throwing stones just yet.

I don't know who or where the poster is getting his/her information about how event riders are taught to take a fence, but she/he needs to find a new source. If you can't pick a spot or ride a distance properly in eventing you won't be a very successful competitor or a very safe rider.

Every eventing coach I have trained with has asked me to tell her/him what my line is to a fence and where my spot is and how many strides I have to work with between fences in stadium or in combinations on cross country when we walked courses. And if I didn't have the answer I heard about it you can be sure!!

(BTW I saw many H/J riders at Conyers that never even walked thier courses---they sat on their horses and studied the course map while they looked into the arena!!!!).

Like every sport eventing has its irresponsible and ignorant people. But the H/J world is not ammune either--how about murdered horses and insurance fraud, poling, injecting lame horses before compeition, hauling horses around to week long show after week long show with no break for 6-8 months, THE severe BITS AND GADGETS???!!

Before this poster starts firing off morter rounds into the eventing bunker, she/he better be sure the H/J bunker is a perfect utopia where no one ever does anything incorrectly and no horse is ever mistreated.

Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Isn't it past time to let go of that one?

*_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it fun taking quotes out of context? You may recall I followed that with: "but then I'm repeating what was already said." Anyway, I was really responding to Evalee Hunter's post & the original post and certainly not yours. Though I do believe your point was already made as well. You are right, there are incompetents in every discipline, and I'd say it's a lot more dangerous to be incompetent in eventing than in other disciplines.

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

DMK
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:

You may recall I followed that with: "but then I'm repeating what was already said." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I believe that was exactly what I was referring to /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

MeanderCreek
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
Well, it's obvious to me that Evalee is in a different reality than me. I go to low level events and see many, many good riders and few bad riders. There are "scary" riders in every discipline. There are hunter riders who don't know their leads too. Fewer "scary" riders in eventing than other disciplines IMO. Of course, I'm in area II, eventing mecca! LOL.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I think Evalee is also in area II. Second, I'd be hesitant to say someone is in a different reality - maybe she is just more critical, more aware, or has a better eye.

I cannot begin to tell you how many people I overhear commenting on how well someone rides - even me once in awhile - while I'm thinking that no tallent fool should be riding back in the wagon instead of torturing some poor horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have personally seen more scary rides at events than horse shows, and like most people I have had some of those scary rides myself.

I think part of the reason I see more scary stuff at events is not only the difficulty of the terrain X ctry and sometimes even stadium /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , but also the lack of full time trainers. That is a two edged sword, the negative side is that there is no pressure to not embarass your barn and not always enough guidance or structure in training and preparing. Granted, there are many individuals with more than enough discipline and knowlege to prepare themselves, but nine times of ten they are the ones taking lessons and clinics and getting the guidance /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:47 AM
DMK, I think everyone's point has been made at least twice!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't want to bicker. The hunter riders are feeling defensive and the eventers are feeling defensive. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just for the record, I don't think hunter riders are not riders. They do what they do and eventers do something a little different. I would have a very hard time trying to do hunters.

And I didn't mean it in a mean way that EH's reality is different than mine. You know, I can get into an argument with my husband and say the same thing. Everyone's reality is different than mine! It's like the old trick when you take a room full of people, tell a story to one, have it whispered to each person, one at a time, and by the time it gets back, it's a new story!

I still think the original poster was all wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

DMK
Mar. 22, 2002, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
DMK, I think everyone's point has been made at least twice!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or three or four times! Peace? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Besides, I may have to stay over here - there is nothing for me in h/j land since the the only joy in my life (aka the greenie thread) was shut down. I'm just going to have to go on to other things now...

Causing trouble?
Taking over where Colin left off?
leaving strife and dissent where ever I go?

Oh the options...


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

tle
Mar. 22, 2002, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Causing trouble?
Taking over where Colin left off?
leaving strife and dissent where ever I go?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now, DMK. You're welcome to play in Event land anytime... but don't go thinkin' you're gonna cause any trouble here. Besides, we're not the same type of people as those H/J folks. We can dish it out too... remember that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But hey... NOBODY parties like eventers. Someone pass our new friend the tequila!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 4 recap... YEA!!! No more "boobie girl"... she's outta there. The rest of the lazy bunch is about to get their comeupance too... 'bout time (poor Hunter). Thanks MB for "the switch"! Back to Thursdays.

Lily
Mar. 22, 2002, 10:32 AM
DMK, you're not really planning to cause some Colinesque trouble over here, are you? Especially not during Lily's work hours! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm glad to see that the bickering has stopped for the most part. Isn't it nice when we all get along- or at least agree to disagree? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tle
Mar. 22, 2002, 10:42 AM
Well, Lily, I think part of the reason it's all calmed down is because our dear "leader" in all this chaos has run for cover and hasn't posted anything anywhere in 4 days. But regardless, you should know by now that the eventers aren't typically a trouble-causing bunch. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif now where's that tequila... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 4 recap... YEA!!! No more "boobie girl"... she's outta there. The rest of the lazy bunch is about to get their comeupance too... 'bout time (poor Hunter). Thanks MB for "the switch"! Back to Thursdays.

Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:03 AM
Mimosas anyone???? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

wanderlust
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:09 AM
I posted this over on another thread (have made some modifications since then), but it is probably more appropriate here, especially in light of all the "scary rider" comments.

Let me preface this by saying I grew up eventing, have been riding out of an "A" hunter barn for the past year or so, and really enjoy both sports. I have a greenie that has the potential to go to the top at either hunters or eventing, and am sitting on the fence about which route to take.

Many "event riders" (at all levels) are not ready to be riding the courses they are. I was disgusted by the poor riding in both x-c and stadium while watching (and fence-judging) one of the larger horse trials in the area last fall. Unexperienced kids who were creeping around novice on horses who were waaaayyyyyy too green to be attempting to jump 2'3", nevermind 3' (horses sucked back, behind the leg, weaving... get to the fence, completely stall out and then pop over). So-called "pros", whose multiple trips on clients horses were so bad that it made me cringe to watch (this particular pro couldn't find a distance to save her life, left the first two stadium fences from huge gappy spots, hitting the horse in the mouth both times. The horse then proceeds to bolt around the course and "deer jump" every single fence. This is after I had seen her on x-c the day before... completely boffed her line to a huge intermediate cordwood pile. The horse, thank god, stalled out and stopped, saving her from what would have been a complete disaster... and she proceeds to whale on him with the bat, as if *he* had done the poor riding, picked the bad line and caused the stop. I wished I could have used the bat on *her*. Moron.)

There are also some great riders out there... I saw a bit of really good, a bit of really bad, and lots of things in between... mostly just plain ol' mediocre. But the "bad" I have seen is "dangerous bad," and that is what bothers me.

I am surprised we don't see more bad accidents at the lower levels. The USCTA has made a huge effort to make eventing more available and less "elitist", and it seems that a major lashback has been a "dumbing down" of the sport. People are not fully aware of the risks involved, and are not prepared to ride even beginner novice courses, nevermind prelim.

What is the solution to this? I wish I knew. All equestrian sports have inherent risk for both horse and rider. But I do know that after being away from eventing and in the "A" h/j scene for several years, you will not find the h/j kids "cowboying" around and being unable to ride the course (granted, the h/j's have a whole different set of problems, but we're talking about the ability to safely ride the course you are competing over, while being mounted on a hose that is appropriate to your ability). The major difference is that there is a sense of accountability in the "A"'s- almost every rider is with a trainer, and the trainer will not allow you to compete in a class in which you will make a fool of yourself. Because, by association, you will be making a fool of your trainer (and doing that is not going to help them acquire or retain clients).

Thoughts?

[This message was edited by master_tally on Mar. 22, 2002 at 02:37 PM.]

baymare
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:26 AM
that hunter riders actually be required to go foxhunting...

Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:30 AM
Well, most of my experience is from jump judgeing on CC. If I am riding, I don't pay much attention to the other riders, and also, I've only ridden at unrecognized weenie stuff lately.

The last event I jump judged was a year ago at Rosaryville. I watched Training & Novice. Well, aside from the fact the horses were pretty, it was pretty much a bore. No one had the least bit of a problem. There were a few short spots and long spots, some "perfect" spots. I didn't see any rider that looked out of control. I didn't take notes of exactly how many imperfect spots there were, but I certainly did not see any bad riding. And there weren't even any scary looking lauches or anything like that. Of course I was at one jump. One jump does not make a good survey sample. There were more problems at the water complex...as there should be.

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

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Pixie Dust
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:33 AM
WEll, actually, the only time I hunted was when I was a hunter rider LOL. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

Lily
Mar. 22, 2002, 11:56 AM
I can't drink tequila for some reason...but I'm always up for Coronas!

You guys are remarkably well-behaved- so if you find yourself in NYC (or the boonies of New Jersey where I'm working now /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) drinks are on me!

tle
Mar. 22, 2002, 12:30 PM
lily,

alas... the closest I will be getting to NYC any time soon is the VA Horse Center in May. But hey... we'll have "The Bucket" (of Margaritas) with us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just made me remember a story karen O'Connor told a clinic group one evening after the Atlanta Olympics. She commented on how interesting it was to eat in the "cafeteria" in the Olympic Village and see what the different athletes were eating.... the gymnasts had their plates of cottage cheese and lettuce... the weight lifters and wrestlers had their plates stacked with pasta and potatoes... and then there were the Eventers .....

with their pizza and beer!! Sounds like a good crowd to me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 4 recap... YEA!!! No more "boobie girl"... she's outta there. The rest of the lazy bunch is about to get their comeupance too... 'bout time (poor Hunter). Thanks MB for "the switch"! Back to Thursdays.

DMK
Mar. 22, 2002, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lily:
DMK, you're not really planning to cause some Colinesque trouble over here, are you? Especially not during Lily's work hours! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I am a troubled child right now, so I can't make any promises... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

tle - now I'm sure you eventers can dish it right back, but one must admit the nirvana of petty backstabbing knifelike comments is surely the domain of the hunter princesses at the ingate... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Unless one were to consider the DQ's loitering around the dressage ring /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (hence the reason DMK rarely treads in Velvet's territory! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

baymare - us hunter folks will go right out and hunt as soon as you eventer types put on your military gear and hook up with the cavalry! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (I hear there are openings in Afghanistan!)


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

BarbB
Mar. 22, 2002, 04:22 PM
Master_tally,
Like you, I don't know what the answer to the bad riding in eventing is. Although I think that MOST of the riding I see is pretty darn good, even if not always pretty. I have learned to appreciate balanced, effective riding even when it doesn't look pretty.
Personally I work with a jump trainer (H/J) and a dressage instructor. The eventers that I know do the same, even if it isn't continuous instruction. I know there are people out there without any help from instructors, but I honestly don't know any of them personally.
I do know this - if eventing ever comes to the point of being as reliant on trainers as the hunter world is - I will quit eventing.
I live at a H/J barn and I have some the of best instruction in the area available to me. I work at being able to ride a round like a good hunter does, because it is an art. But I NEVER want to turn control of my horse, my show schedule and my goals over to my instructor, the way the hunter riders do.
I will set my own pace for training, set my own competition schedule and condition and train my own horse, thank you.
I rely on my instructors for guidance, not to take control of my life.
The trade off for the sport not being totally reliant on trainers is that some riders will not use trainers at all. So be it. I don't think it is a good idea, but the opposite extreme is unpalatable.
JMO
Barb

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Poombadesign
Mar. 22, 2002, 05:03 PM
Someone mentioned about hunter riders not "cowboying", but I believe this person's experience was at the 'A' rated shows, where NO, people ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 'cowboy.' But then again, you're not gonna see any of that at a 3-day or something like ROLEX either!!! How about we just stick to the fact that YES there are scary riders at novice and training, and YES there are scary riders at the local h/j's. Now, I'm not saying bad riding doesn't exist at the 'A's or 3-days, the cases just might not be as numerous.

"It's Friday afternoon...do you know where YOUR Chronicle is??????"

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clickstar
Mar. 23, 2002, 10:17 AM
this came up on another board, mainly hunter/jumper with a [proud!] minority of eventers.
(you canadians, or those of you who came over during the COTH-BB boycott will recognize it is the EMG-BB).

see what these h/j riders know about...
finding the spot (http://)

isn't that what we are all saying? pace, rhythm, and balance get you the spot.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif clicking on...

Louise
Mar. 23, 2002, 05:39 PM
One is very glad that one recognized that the title of Queen Back Stabber and Mistress of Pretence still belongs to whatever "true" DQ happens to be lounging (was going to say loitering but that that term is much too plebian) around the arena at any given time.

I don't come over t Eventing very often, but, I have to say that, in general you guys know how to hold a civilized, if lively, discussion!

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

rivenoak
Mar. 24, 2002, 06:03 AM
Just an FYI for some people who haven't ridden at a hunter show to consider - hunter courses are not commonly walked. All you *can* do is study the map, see what distances they've allowed between the fences, and watch some other horses go. In 10 years of riding H/J, I never had the opportunity to walk a hunter course; it wasn't available. Jumper courses are walked, however; or at least, they're usually available for walking.

caballo_saltando
Mar. 24, 2002, 06:54 AM
At the lower levels of any sport, observers should not expect to watch perfect performances by advanced, perfect riders. Green riders on tense horses who are anxious themselves are not going to ride a stadium course as well as they might ride the exact same course at home. Same goes for XC and dressage.

The riders are there to learn, gain experience, and to improve, and they deserve the spectators' support(from fellow riders, parents/spouses/friends of other riders, strangers, etc)and respect for getting out there and making a go of it, even if the performance makes everyone cringe. Eventing is not the same as the A world of H/J - the point for most of us is to have fun and to learn and to be safe. Approaching a jump in an unsafe way in XC or stadium (getting ahead of your horse, etc) will eventually take the fun out of it as the horse will make mistakes, and thus, only through safe riding can fun be had. We all understand this even if we don't demonstrate it perfectly in competition.

Not all riders can afford the luxury of full-time training and made horses and we have to do the best we can with what we have got and build upon our own foundations. And we deserve the support of the spectators and not a gawking sideline of sorority members turning up their lips at our not-so-A-circuit performances.

baymare
Mar. 24, 2002, 09:12 AM
I am a HUNTER rider who thinks that "hunter riders" should actually ride .... HUNTERS. I know it is a totally insane concept, but I never said I wasn't nuts.

Furthermore, I sincerely believe that plenty of those horses who clock around those set distances in level, confined spaces would LOVE to go hunting, and plenty of them would be really good at it as well. Ditto the riders.

I would add that it seems to me that eventing has gotten just as far from its military roots as hunter riding has from its foxhunting ones. What officer in his right mind would point an animal that his life depended on at some of the truly contrived and bizarre obstacles you see on courses today? In their case, it would be much better horsemanship to go around!