View Full Version : LONG ISLAND- The outcome of this past PHA meeting

Gold Dust
May. 9, 2001, 07:42 AM
Well, another meeting has gone by. Besides our usual business very important update. As we all know many of us have LIHSAA issues. Although nothing had been put to order last night at least an open meeting of the LIHSAA has been put on the calendar for Monday, June 11th at the New Horizons Diner at 7:30. This is a must attend meeting people. The door has opened for comminication so lets open it big and wide.
My opinion, the first order on the agenda is comittee member update and major changes there. We need proper representation guys. What do you think? Lets get the ball rolling guys. Start posting please and lets here some feedback from all!

Gold Dust
May. 9, 2001, 07:42 AM
Well, another meeting has gone by. Besides our usual business very important update. As we all know many of us have LIHSAA issues. Although nothing had been put to order last night at least an open meeting of the LIHSAA has been put on the calendar for Monday, June 11th at the New Horizons Diner at 7:30. This is a must attend meeting people. The door has opened for comminication so lets open it big and wide.
My opinion, the first order on the agenda is comittee member update and major changes there. We need proper representation guys. What do you think? Lets get the ball rolling guys. Start posting please and lets here some feedback from all!

May. 9, 2001, 08:02 AM
The specs for Prechildren's Hunter has not changed from last year. It was not to be split last year, and that rule is being inforced again this year. Nothing has changed. So what is the problem?

And the SS Hunters CAN be split at 17, according to the LIHSSA specs. So where's the problem there?

As far as the numbers in the hack class, it could be added that no more than 6/8/whatever to canter at one time.

Remember, these divisions are run on the increment system as well, so more entries- more points!!

May. 9, 2001, 10:05 AM
I dd not know it was not suppposed to be split last year - the pre-children's divison. We split it all the time. And the SS Hunters - we always split those. Why can't the horse show managers split things if we want. Alvin says it will get to 4 in a class. That's not giving the horse show managers much credit for brains. I take offense at that. As I have mentioned before the LIHSAA was started to encourage showing on LI. Most of whatthe present LIHSAA has done has not benefitted anyone, except------. Shouldn't go there
Thanks Debbie for starting this new thread and for all your help a the meeting

May. 9, 2001, 12:21 PM
just to clarifuy and mind you I donot have this supposed rule book in front of me.It has been read to me over the phone,one thepre childrens dividon is not split as an end of year award at the banquet it is on e set of ribbons .Whatteh show manager chooses to do should be their own decision.Two I was told that the short stirrup eq can be divided at 17 not hunters.At any rate apparently there were 18 at last weekend's hunters isle show.

Gold Dust
May. 9, 2001, 03:43 PM
I have read that booklet and as far as the Sh. St. hunters it states to me that it can be split if the divisions has 17 so I do not see why that is becoming a problem. The pre-childrens hunter was split quite often last year. This is where LIHSAA needs to let us know they are doing things like that and not just put it in a booklet left on the table at the dinner dance. Mrs. Rice is right when she says if managment would like to split the day of the show then why not. It may make points more difficult to tally but like any job there are some aspects of it that will become trying but hey, that's my day to day here! lol

I feel so strongly on upgrading the way the LIHSAA is working its current system. This is the feedback I need so my mission will be succesful. And I mean I AM ON A MISSION!

May. 9, 2001, 07:29 PM
If you are reading this and were at the meeting yesterday please raise your hand and tellus if you are a current pha member

Gold Dust
May. 9, 2001, 07:54 PM
simple enough!

May. 10, 2001, 04:19 AM
Not a member yet. There's so much new stuff, I can't believe it. I need to go to shows and see what's happening before I even think about showing. Glad I went to the meeting. You guys all look great. Does anyone have Jo Rothenberg's phone #? I work for the Bank of Smithtown and spoke to Tom Mannos Wed. He gave me her address but not the phone #. I want to call her and give her our CD rates and other info. Tom liked the idea. Please email me with her # if you (anyone) can. Thanks! It was good to see everyone.

Linda Prisco
May. 10, 2001, 05:03 AM
Current Member

May. 10, 2001, 10:14 AM
I ama memeber with a card !

Gold Dust
May. 10, 2001, 08:25 PM
Just so everyone understands why brilyntrip has asked if you are a PHA member, it has been told to me someone questioned some people at the meeting not being members. My take on that is -so what! Seems to me we should encourage people to attend and then hope they keep coming, get involved and become paid memebers. So the problem with that is..........?

May. 11, 2001, 03:18 PM
Good Lord, who's the sourpuss!! Ok, ok, I'll join. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Laura Reed
May. 11, 2001, 03:58 PM
I know, I know, I should have all the results for you, but I don't. Sorry. WHERE WERE YOU ALL? I hope you will attend Sat/Sun.

The Green Working had 3. The Pre-Green (AHSA Zone 2) had 4. The LIHSAA Low Professionals had 4, the LIHSAA Low AM/Jr section had 5. The Infant Hunters had 11. The LIHSAA Special hunters had around 5.

Courses rode well, were inviting and well decorated. Footing isn't perfect, but it's not total concrete. Food service was sketchy (another story) but they WILL be there Sat/Sun before 7 a.m.

Please come to the LI PHA show Sat/Sun (SUNY Old Westbury) and you can submit your membership at the show, if you haven't already joined.

Gold Dust
May. 11, 2001, 06:35 PM
Did not go today because I had to get everyone ready for tomorrow so will see you then! I hear we are getting rain early tomorrow morning but a quick shower so that should be perfect for the footing! Small turnout for friday but that should change tomorrow! Well, see you all bright and early.

Judge- see, it's all your fault LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 11, 2001, 08:51 PM

May. 12, 2001, 08:13 AM
Once again, I don't understand. We're supposed to hustle up new members, but shouldn't persuade non-members to attend the meetings, in the process? Any interest is better than none.

The non-members are potential members, let's not scare them away.

May. 12, 2001, 05:17 PM
Laura: "Sketchy" food service? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You are very kind, because that wouldn't have been my description. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I'm not sure exactly how long the truck was there on friday, but I know it was no more than two hours. I also heard they were out of bottled water within the first hour.

May. 12, 2001, 06:34 PM
I was at the PHA meeting on tuesday. No, I'm not a member but I am interested in coming to the meetings. I thought anyone was allowed to attend. Even though I am only an amateur, I still am very interested in everything that goes on in our horse show community. I don't want to be in the way or anything, I just like to listen. I hope that's okay?

Gold Dust
May. 13, 2001, 08:47 AM
Spent all day at the show yesterday and am happy to report the coffe truck was there all day from bright and early until late at night. Food may have taken a bit long but in my opinion worth the wait! Show went well. Mother nature could of helped us with a bit more rain for the footing but whatcha gonna do but try a rain dance! lol I thought my ring ran as smooth as it could. Tim Cleary worked the in-gate[I was in the same ring all day] and he did a great job and was too funy all day long so at least we had some laughs all day too. I felt sorry for the people who had ch. hunter ponies. That was a small mob at the end of the day. Laura- can that division be split into 2 different rings? Larges in 1, small med. in the other? That might of helped the show finish sooner if you could being the other ring was finished.

As far as the PHA meeting I believe there is no reason member or not that you can not sit in the meetings. How about all who come join anyway. It's a measly $50.00 pro dues and I believe only $25.00 for Jrs.[don't quote me on that one] and am not sure what the Am. dues are. Help me on that one Janet! So lets all join up if you have not and no problem for you guys because we love to see new faces!!!!

May. 14, 2001, 06:36 AM
Don't know what the fee is for Juniors and Amateurs- Dave and I are both professional members( I'm sure this will open up a can of worms). But $25 sounds right.

Anyone interested should and can attend the meetings. Any new input is good input, in my book.

May. 14, 2001, 04:57 PM
Consider me a member. Thank you Deb and Janet for sticking up for us non-members. Glad the show went well. Sorry I missed it. I was busy turning 40 years old and pretending to be surprised at my surprise party. (Hubby had to tell me - LIKE A CHILD!!!) He's cute. I judged at Bohemia Sun. I was surprised, I thought they'd all be at PHA. Patty Messina was there, that really shocked me. Looking forward to the next meeting. When is it?

Gold Dust
May. 14, 2001, 08:08 PM
June 4th-PHA same place same time and June 11th LIHSAA same place,same time and that is a very important meeting for all to attend. No membership required just the want to be involved! I will talk that one up big time as we get closer.

Gold Dust
May. 15, 2001, 01:40 PM
I had spoken to Alvin and Carolyn at the horse show. With the up and coming open LIHSAA meeting coming up on Mon. June 11th I suggested new comittee members. They agreed and I said I would like all present to nominate some on a piece of paper to be handed in at the meeting and the present comittee could make selections from that. So remember if you want to have a say please come and think about the people you would like making decisions for you.

May. 15, 2001, 07:33 PM
Boy am I sorry to have missed the last meeting. The change in date conflicted with my schedule. I will surely be at the next one and yes I am a current member.
For as long as I have been invovled with the LIPHA the meetings have been open to all but only members could actually vote on issues. I find it funny that no one has a list of current members at each meeting to clarify who can vote. I also can't believe that there is not one master mailing list compiled. I have been and active member for over six years and several notices and invitations have not been sent to me.
Debbie good luck on your mission. I for one think there should be a lot of changes. Can someone enlighted me on the Merger idea between the LIPHA and the LIHSAA? I have only heard Alvin's comment of "not as long as I am president" See you all at the next meeting.

May. 15, 2001, 07:40 PM
I agree with you things must become more straight forward. proceedures have to be set and followed.Alvin was very adimant(sp?) about opposing the merger.

May. 15, 2001, 08:03 PM
I need a little history lesson. When did the LIHSAA come into being? Who were the original members? My understanding is the LIHSAA was created by a handful of local horseshow managers, who ran at the time the 20 or so shows on Long Island. In an effort to get people to continue to show more, offered points toward an end of the year award. That award is given out at the LIPHA dinner dance.

The amount of shows on Long Island has increased tremendously and today a committee of 12 or 13 representing only one side of horse showing is rather short sighted. There should be representatives from all areas of horse showing including, management, exhibitors, professionals, maybe even licensed officals. Otherwise we risk having decisions made that are not for the "masses" but for a smaller group. There also is no checking system in place at the moment. As we all have seen, the recent point tabulation controversy was not embraced by the showing population, but other than stating our opinions, the decision making process was in the hands a select group that meets ONCE a year.
Have the LIPHA and the LIHSAA ever joined ranks? Can anyone see any "cons" as to why they shouldn't be together?

May. 16, 2001, 10:36 AM
Alot of people, members and non-members, think it would be very advantageous to have a closer relationship between the two organizations. We should all be striving for the same goal and be able to have open discussions on any topic pertaining to the horse industry on Long Island. For some reason our Chairman is absolutely against it.
At this open LIHSAA meeting, June 11th, we must discuss by-laws and rules and regulations for the LIHSAA- there are none now which leads to much confusion and no set pattern to follow if there is a problem. Also, please come with suggestions for an up-dated committee, this is a must.

Gold Dust
May. 16, 2001, 04:40 PM
Thought you cast us off for a bit there! Missed you at the meeting and our pre-meeting dinner. Once again I needed that menu except this time in the meeting! Ask Linda Prisco to fill you in on that one.[Evil, evil woman lol]
Merger is out. Alvin is totally against it due to some fiasco some years back. When I saw no merger possible that is when I decided it was time to get new comittee members and more open meetings so we could have a place to keep up on what's going on, and people I felt confident in, that would decide the future for L.I. showing.
By-Laws. My god is this not insane that there are none as of now. Please,and you wonder why no one knows what is going on. I think once we come up with new members to the comittee this is an ASAP project for LIHSAA. How can we impose fines or rules with no by-laws. I admit I am not Mrs. political but even I knew any association MUST have these.
Lots of work ahead for LIHSAA so I hope you comittee members are ready to put all the time needed to run a good association. This IS expected of you!

May. 16, 2001, 08:31 PM
Whew!!! That's telling it like it is!!! Go get 'em, Deb!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 17, 2001, 06:50 AM
Do any other LIHSAA committee members have opinions about the merger? I appreciate Alvin's point of view but he is only ONE person. Doesn't he sit on the LIHSAA because he is the chairman of the LIPHA? Shouldn't he be speaking for the masses? My impression was that the LIPHA chairperson was our spokesperson at the LIHSAA meetingI have heard over and over "this is a LIPHA meeting not a LIHSAA meeting", but as the chairperson who represents the LIPHA at the LIHSAA meetings how else are we to get our ideas, and points of view across? Since the LIHSAA meetings usually occur once a year behind closed doors, or worse in one on one telephone calls where no group discussion of thoughts or ideas can be aired, where else are horse people supposed to go to get our thoughts known? The decisions made by the LIHSAA effect most members of the LIPHA I for one don't feel as if they are listening. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Gold Dust
May. 17, 2001, 08:01 AM
I guess we should discuss in detail the incident that happened way back when why Alvin is dead set against it at the june 11th meeting.Like I said, if no merger then open meetings.
As far as any votes taken, I feel no votes should be taken over the phone. A comittee member should be presnt to vote. This way they can get a feel of the room and also show the general public that they are willing to put the time into the L.I. horse comunity. Ask anyone who has been to one of the few open LIHSAA meetings you need to be there to hear all opinions befor casting a vote. I know many comitte members changed there vote after they came to the meeting at East Coast stables with the 20 horse show fiasco! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

May. 17, 2001, 08:28 AM
I don't remember what happened "way back when". Could you reiterate the details?

M. O'Connor
May. 17, 2001, 04:25 PM
I appreciate the difference between the purposes of the PHA and the LIHSAA. What is lacking is an organization open to all that has accountability to participants in the sport, ie those whose interests are affected by its actions. Neither organization at present seems to be able to address this problem. Though PHA is presently the only organization open to all comers, provided they cough up the dues.

May. 17, 2001, 06:13 PM
Have these problems been around for a long time? I don't recall there being so many problems when I was showing. God only knows - it's been 11 years since I've been on a horse so I'll just keep my mouth shut. Hope everything straightens out.

Gold Dust
May. 17, 2001, 06:52 PM
Not a clue Janet. That is why I wanted to bring it up. I was hoping someone could enlighten us. No matter what the issue was, new era, new people. How long can one hold a grudge?

May. 17, 2001, 08:03 PM
The LIPHA meetings are open to anyone. Whether you have paid your dues or not, you can voice your opinion. The voting on actions or decisions is however restricted to current dues paying members.
I quess the "incident way back when" is still a mystery.

M. O'Connor
May. 18, 2001, 06:43 AM
and it seems that all are welcome at the meetings, though only members can vote. I think that aside from this privilege, the benefits of PHA membership to those other than professionals have not been made all that clear...this is also a problem...with the main interest of the most participants at shows being either the outcome of the LIHSAA tabulations or the conditions of competition, the way things are structured now (or not) certainly doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I am missing something, and if so, I'd be delighted if someone "in the know" would clue me in.

Gold Dust
May. 18, 2001, 08:18 AM
Mary, that is exactly what I would like to see from LIHSAA. No by-laws, no meetings [except that one a year they had] comittee members not attending meetings, shall I go on. COME ON-just read the insanity of this all and lets get some people together who really want to make L.I. a pleasurable showing experience. Enough is enough.

Oh jeezes here I go, somebody put me in check here!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

May. 18, 2001, 11:48 AM
The reason why I wasnt there was because the divisions that I needed to show in went on different days then in the past years so it didnt benefit me in going. I have supported this show in the past with many enteries I would of again but in wasnt in the cards for me this year, I dont think the time schedule was thought through enough before printing it. How many enteries did you end of having for the 3 days? I can figure the rest out myself if the changes that were made this year benefited the PHA or not.

May. 18, 2001, 12:02 PM
Well my opinion on the PHA horse finally got posted only a couple of days late, seems like old news now, but getting back to the meeting for June 11th, Gold Dust, you mentioned something about an incident with Alvin a couple of years ago and that is why he is dead against this meeting, what incident are you talking about that made you mention it!! If you can fill me in maybe then I can understand the reasonings on this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gold Dust
May. 18, 2001, 12:46 PM
And quietly I might add. Alvin brought it up at the last PHA meeting in mid-sentence and it flew past us all because I think we all thought someone would tell us later what he meant. We were all in the middle of a heated discussion at that point and I would think it was irrelevant at that time. As I have stated in a previous post, it was long ago and I feel since no one remembers it how could it be an issue today?!

Laura Reed-where are you when we need you. I bet you might know!!

May. 18, 2001, 05:20 PM
OK, But what was it that he said that flew by you. I know you dont know what he meant by it, but I still dont know what he said, Fill me in on that, maybe I can give it a shot to figure it out!! I maybe out of the loop a little bit but it doesnt take me much to get back in. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I like these little smiley guys!!!

Laura Reed
May. 18, 2001, 05:29 PM
I don't know what incident (LIHSAA) Alvin is referring to. I've been on the LIHSAA committee for just the past 2 years and prior to that, was not at all involved since I didn't show. Only real "contact" I had with LIHSAA was as a steward, making sure I had copies of the specs/rules with me at the shows.

Also, sorry I couldn't make the LI PHA meeting on the 8th. New job is taking up serious hours.

On the PHA horse show: good turn out this year, but I agree the schedule needs tweaking. Also think we should be planning the 2002 (50th anniversary!) at the very next PHA meeting.

Bottom line opinion: I do think LIHSAA issues should have a place on the agenda at PHA meetings. I don't know if the LIHSAA needs to somehow be a sub-committee of LI PHA or somehow be co-mingled in some fashion, but I do know that forward thinking, open dialog is crucial.

May. 18, 2001, 07:36 PM
YEAH Laura!!! I also agree with Gold Dust that the LIHSAA needs to create some by-laws, revamp who sits on the committee, and open up their meetings so that John Q Public can be heard. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

May. 18, 2001, 07:42 PM
to whatever happened in tehpast.all he said was something about a battle in Lihsaa almost destroying the shows on LONG ISland .he did not say how long ago nor did he say who was involved.It seems to me that if even Ms.Rice doesn't know what he's talking about tis incident must have been a REALLY long time ago.It seems tome that it has no legitimacy any longer!!

May. 18, 2001, 08:15 PM
Thank you, Laura, for airing your views. I am in your corner on this. I think the whole communication problem began with the addition of unrated divisions into LIHSAA. Before that, there was no real need for the committee to hear from, or report to, the rest of the showing community. All the divisions were under ASHA specs and no one questioned them. But with the influx of the unrated divisions there has been nothing but complications- problems a while ago with the Training Jumpers, and now with the Pre-Childrens and Short Stirrup.

The committee does try to make a fair but competitive playing field for all, when creating the specs for these divisions. Many trainers, exhibitors, and show managers have their own interpretation of the specs and because there has not been, in the past, any true communication betweenLIHSA and the masses, complications arose.

The situation will improve with open LIHSA meetings and an upgraded committee with a variety of avid show people placed on it. All the bases must be covered- Management, judges, stewards, exhibitors, trainers. Three from each catagory would put 15 on the committee- a good number. But these must be people who WANT to get involved, and not because they want to see their name in print.

I'm not sure it will matter if the LIHSA works as a committee within the PHA. If it has a good representation of all the facets of the LI shows it won't really have to.

May. 19, 2001, 05:15 AM
I tell ya, listening to all the issues that seem to be problems in the LIHSA I dont know what is easier to do, changing careeers or find a different sport to do as a hobby. What I am trying to say is that there are always going to be issues because you will have one in the crowd that will be against it and then there will be two then three, Before all these divisions were invented, we never had so many issues and problems, I can see the pre child, and the pre adult divisions but honestly think about maybe one or two more, but now Short Stirrup has issues, the problem is there are too many divisions and so you are going to have problems, You cant keep adding to the list divisions because of either the rider or the horse you have, Hey dont get me wrong playing in a fair field is always is an advantage but there are just to many divisions to choose where you fit in, not for anything you tell me other then the prechild/ and pre/adults what other divisions benefited LI. Like I said you are ALWAYS going to have issues do to the fact of classes that are being offered these days. HEY JANET, maybe if all these classes werent being offered and these shows COUNTRY FAIR SHOWS would still be going on and probably going on strong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
DID I mention that I love those smiley faces!!!

May. 19, 2001, 02:57 PM
You are very close to the true reason why Country Fair has been put to rest. My shows could not compete any longer, since LIHSA incorporated unrated divisions in their awards program. It was bound to happen sooner or later. I'm not sour about it, but it is the biggest reason.

Gold Dust
May. 20, 2001, 06:53 PM
You may have closed the shop doors up too soon!!!! If we can not come to some solutions and soon I am getting tribes of people to camp out by your farm until you give in LOL
Janet, you hit the nail on the head with that post on LIHSAA. quote-'not just want to see their name in print'- Loved that one!!!
I think specs for all will not be a problem even for Sh. St. divisions. We just need people with input that actually are involved with all divisions. Some people on the comittee vote and do not even see the ramification of their vote as they are not involved with the week in and week out world of horseshowing!

May. 20, 2001, 08:03 PM
Wow what a big show today!! Dusty too, although what can you do with 20+ days without rain. Saw a lot of faces and boy did I hear a lot of talk about the LIHSAA and LIPHA. The next few meetings could be very good productive meetings as long as everyone can be open minded to each others ideas and we work toward a solution, not argue over all the old stuff.

I still think that the LIHSAA would make a good subcommittee within the LIPHA. It would have by laws and have a procedure to follow. Ponypullers idea of a 15 member committee made up of 3 from each facet makes sense. Members should all be active in the Long Island horse show world and members of the LIPHA. They could be voted on annually,or semi-annually so at least there is a way to get rid of non-productive personel. There would be a set time in the LIPHA meeting for a report and to hear any new ideas, just like the treasurer's report, dinner dance committee, or horse show committee. Maybe it would finally provide a way to address any problems there may be with a horse show, division offered, division specs., what ever. I really hope we will be able to work these issues out. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 20, 2001, 09:10 PM
here here

May. 21, 2001, 06:37 AM
At the show yesterday, a rumor was floating about- something about a new rule from the AHSA that says Low Hunters can be split only if there are 8 in each division. Is that a new generalized rule for all divisions that potentially split? What does the AHSA care what we do with our Low Hunters?? This is something Joan at the gate was told by Jimmy the previous night in a phone conversation. Fortunately, there were 1746 Lows and it went for ever!!

What is that all about?? Help us out, Laura!!

[This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 21, 2001 at 02:49 PM.]

Gold Dust
May. 21, 2001, 11:58 AM
In regards to the show, dusty is not the word. When the h*** are we going to get some rain!The talk about the split in the LIHSAA low hunter was insane to me.Did we not just make this division up and talk about it at a past meeting how it was a good thing to do and how popular this division has been? What does that division and the AHSA have to do with each other?

Now- I had a pre-childrens hunter yesterday in about a field of approximatly 18-20 horses and since it can not be split horses and ponies someone from LIHSAA comittee ask the judge how dangerous it was to be in that hack? What message are we trying to send here? See if you can survive the hack!

M. O'Connor
May. 21, 2001, 12:11 PM
That does not make any sense at all. How do we end up with these senseless rules??? Why does no one speak up when these senseless rules are made? The most dangerous thing I have ever seen in a show ring in my life was in a short stirrup class and a horse lashed out with a hind foot towards a pony--missed the pony kid's chest by an inch! Pony's vs. horses isn't normally a fair contest no matter if you are speaking in competitive terms or not--but when you can't rely on a kids ability to handle their mount (and no one can tell me that in pre-children's that that is a guarantee) it can be downright dangerous!! Logically, since the ponies and horses are split in the children's, they should also be split in the pre-children's. So why aren't they?

May. 21, 2001, 12:47 PM
If the whole argument to split it is to keep the under saddle class from not getting too crowded and unsafe, I don't agree with the argument. If and when a flat class, of any sort, is so large that it appears unsafe, is it not the judge's call as to splitting for safety sake? I can remember many flat classes that were run in "heats", or smaller groups, then the winners of each group rode against each other. If we can't depend on the judges to keep things safe, then an additional rule (ie-no more than 2-4-6-8 shall canter at one time) can be included in the specs.

If the argument is to create another division, then I believe an existing one must be sacrificed- combined with another, whatever. There are entirely too many divisions.

Gold Dust
May. 21, 2001, 01:37 PM
Mary, I really do not know who decided not to split it since I am not on that board of decision makers. Some on the board I here did not even know the rule came to be and they run horse shows! Since children hunters are split horses, sm. med. ponies and larges why not split pre-childrens? So what-one more cooler and 10 more minutes at the dinner dance. In the grande scheme of things would that be such a big deal? Janet, I don't think it would be adding another division, just making an exsisting one an even, safer playing field. We would be follwing in the footsteps of the AHSA. I remember the reason we made the division was to prepare the kids for moving up to the real ch. hunter division. Splitting it would be going towards that path correct? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

M. O'Connor
May. 21, 2001, 03:32 PM
Safety is one factor, certainly, but there are other arguments that are valid as well. Sorry Janet, but if the only reason to NOT split pre-children's along horse/pony lines is so we DON'T create another division, I think that should be reconsidered. Since when is it BAD to have another division, if it can be filled, and if it levels the playing field for the kids? Isn't that why half the divisions that have come into being on local and national levels over the past dozen or so years are there to begin with? If we used the logic of not having new divisions for the sake of preventing them from proliferating, then I can think of several that should never have come into being. But the large numbers of entries at all the shows in most of the "newer" (ie "inclusive") divisions are a strong indication that it makes sense to fill the need if the demand is there.

May. 21, 2001, 07:16 PM
I have to say one thing, alright I am lying maybe a couple of more things to say before this week is up, because we are discussing about Long Island shows and there rules and regulations. I cant tell you how confussing this is when putting enteries in, to make sure you are not putting people in classes that you are not eligible for. "But we wont go there" By the time I get that all absorbed in my head, next years "2002" rules and regualtions will be in existence. Here I go again I am going to need a Labodomy." I think that is how you spell it" In any case this used to be so simple now it is Pathedic.
All I know I didnt get this chance to do all that is being offered today, and I am actually greatful that it wasnt. Back then the classes that were offer made you a confident rider. Made you gone to the next level. I do and Like I said before, I agree on some divisions added to the list, But because LI is offering so many divisions to choose from as you know we have to make better rules and regulations. Then maybe some people will have to make other decisions in moving up the ladder, or just be happy where you are, so we can maybe stop adding all the in between stuff, that is why all the extra's are being added. We need to, have as many people support the meetings so we can get to the bottom of this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 21, 2001, 08:54 PM
Should we split the Short Stirrup Hunters, horse and pony too? It sounds like we should split every division that attracts maybe 12 or more consistantly. Isn't this getting a bit ridiculous?

How is it not an even playing field as it is, this Pre-Childrens division?

LIHSA has gone to the unrated world enough. We need to put the competition back in horse showing. All we are teaching is how to win. It is all about the prizes, not about riding well. Riders should not go home with prizes just for showing up.

I grew up showing with 20-40 other maidens and novices at each show, and they were split under 14, and 14 to 18!!! I lost alot!!

Of course, nobody likes to loose, but winning should not come so easily and matter-of-fact. There needs to be a challenge, even for the young ones. For some it's just finding all the jumps, or lead changes, or doing the numbers. Should they be rewarded for still being wet behind the ears? Should mileage include winning?

I know trainers today have alot to answer to. But setting the show system up so everyone goes home winners teaches that not finding all the jumps, not doing the changes, or not doing the numbers is acceptable. Please, raise your standards a little bit, will ya?

May. 21, 2001, 09:04 PM
Agree with Mary the judge should split when its unsafe particularly withh size of that ring last weekend!Problem judge is tired wants to get it over .Management should I think suggest splitting for safety to judge .
About how this truly stupid self serving rule came about ask the g#@ DA^%*#$ board because it justs eemd to appear out of nowhere like everything else this year!

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 06:42 AM
Was I not harshly criticised ( by trainers who should have been confident that thier riders could handle the challenge) for designing main ring courses that, among other things, included an OPTION to elect to jump a liverpool in the USET and WIHS equitation classes at an A2 show??? Silly me!

I would welcome a return to the system where moving up was mandatory: ie Maiden, Novice, Limit, Intermediate, and Open equitation. (Someone please tell me the advantage of having the kids move up from Short Stirrup to "Low/High Children's Eq," and then straight to Mini's, and on to Open. )

Same goes for the hunters, as far as moving up. But it has to make sense.

I think it's wrong to pick and choose where you take a hard line on this, and to single out the Pre-children's to get tough when the regular children's often have only a handful competing against each other for zone points (when was the last time the ponies weren't split from the horses in that division, or for that matter, how often are the ponies split from each other when the minimum of three are present?) It is only logical that pre-children's should follow the format of the actual children's.

I don't like the zillions of divisions overmuch, but there are pros and cons to the present situation. Pro: we now have a market niche for a wider range of horses. The type of 3' "evergreen" horses that weren't worth a plugged nickle in 1979 can now fetch a tidy sum as children's/adult hunters. Con: people who wouldn't have cut the mustard back then as trainers now make a good living prepping these creatures and their riders for the show ring. Of course if you are one of these folks, the ability to make ends meet and then some is a definite "pro."

LI isn't alone in seeing the weakening of the "big" divisions...when they introduced/modified the increment system and ended up killing off the "B" shows (there was no motivation to show at them anymore), they made overnight stays, two days of training/braiding/shipping, etc a condition of competition that had to be endured if one wanted to show in those divisions and "go bigtime"--no more going to St. Joseph's, Sagaponack, Glen Head at King's Dairy Farm (is it even still there?) to get your first year and junior hunter points--you had to go to the big A's, and that meant you had to spend at least twice as much money as before. THAT is the reason the 3'6" divisions were dealt a death blow, not because people didn't want to move up--when people are coming into the sport now, they start local, ie unrecognized divisions, and there isn't anything on offer for them anymore unless they are wealthy enough to be able to make the leap to the 5-day A circuit shows. They don't stay around to fill the "big" divisions at the smaller shows, because there is no motivation for them to do so.

Since the "old ladder" of progress is gone, I don't think it makes sense to build a new one with the rungs haphazardly placed. It should all make sense, so the kids can progress up it in a logical way, or it should be overhauled. Just my opionion.

And a side note: RAIN!!!! I see RAIN outside my window, at long last!!!

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on May. 22, 2001 at 08:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on May. 22, 2001 at 08:51 AM.]

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 07:01 AM
Befor I get to the split discussion I would like to point out for all who are just lurking and expecially comittee members in case you did not already know Janet and I are friends and once in a while actually do not agree. Is this not what LIHSAA meetings should actually be doing. Discussing matters without everyones hair getting all raised up. People should disagree so when a rule is passed it has at least been thrown around the table a bit!
O.K.,the split thing. Janet you are so correct and hit the nail on the head! Nobody likes to loose. Then-why split low hunters Am. and pros,why split adult hunters A,B,and C why split ch. hunters sm.,med.,lg.,and horses? In my opinion we added pre-childrens as an end of year award division. Maybe this would weed out the non award divisions, force people to do the other ones and then more people would go to the dinner dance! This making any sense?

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 07:17 AM
Huh?? I don't get it. (Not unusual...probably just me...)

I mean the part about the splits...the disagreement part I understand. If we all agreed, we would be in a really boring place.

May. 22, 2001, 07:29 AM
Back in my youth I worked for Hugh Cassidy's shows and remember clearly his stand to only split a class if there were 50 in it. As a rider it never occured to me that there were too many entrants in my classes. I just rode. Many an Old Field show, or ST Joseph's did I hack in a section and be released, but what a thrill it was when I was picked to stay in and finish the flat with "the best" of 25. Yes getting a ribbon was even better but I was always proud to make the cut, and if I didn't my trainer usually had a reason why if I didn't already know. As a trainer today I am disappointed how "easy" the shows have become. Kids stay in divisions when they are clearly ready to move up. Worse yet I hear trainers who blame the lack of ribbons on everything but rider/horse error. It's the either the judge, the poor footing, the course, the time schedule, I could go on and on. There is a serious lack of respect on the trainers part and that is what our young riders are learning. As far as spliting the divisions I don't think a class with four to six is the answer. We shouldn't create splits to ensure that riders get ribbons. As for the safety issue, both the judge and show management have the power to divide the class into sections, bringing the "cream" back to finish. Just like they have the power to chose to hold cards on six classes at one time

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 08:03 AM
It would be nice if we could all agree to raise the standards once more, and maybe we'd produce another Stephen Weiss or Jenno Topping...

It would be nice to come up with a system to encourage progress, not just point counting...let's not forget that the concept of high-score awards are a double edged sword...After all, the whole notion of the year -end awards, while providing people with an incentive to turn up at the shows, by definition means a rider/horse remains in the same division for a long stretch of time without moving up--practicing the same thing over and over for twelve months with no variation doesn't encourage progression, until after the awards dinner is over...that is a long time to keep doing the same thing. There is no easy answer to this dilemma.

On the other hand, the disappearance of the upper divisions at the "local" shows means that there isn't much available to move up to...but, this doesn't seem to be a situation that is unique to our area. No one seems to be able to come up with a formula that will be acceptable to the majority, yet encourage progress in a logical way. Any ideas?

Linda Prisco
May. 22, 2001, 08:11 AM
Been reading all the posts on the discussion about the split of the classes when there are 18-20 in a class. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this subject...each has a valid reason on whether to split or run the class as a whole. Not sure which way to go on this, but can understand both sides. I definetly do believe that safety should come first and it should be made mandatory that a class, whichever it may be,should be split to hack. Not only is it unsafe but I don't think the judge can fairly judge a class with 20 horses and ponies cantering around. There have been many times that the riders dont even canter around the ring once. How can a judge honestly look at the whole field in such a short time???? This issue should be looked at and become mandatory!!
I agree with M O'Connor as far as returning to our old standards of Maiden- Open. What happened to that???? At least when a rider gets a blue ribbon he has to move out of the Maiden Division and into Novice.....3 blues and onward and upward to Limit....6 blues your out, move to Open. Today these riders stay in this Pre-Childrens until they grow old. Yes the specs say open to Novice riders but we all know there are so many of them that do not belong in that division. Just read your prize lists, how confusing are they?? Some prize lists will show the specs for Pre-Adult - Open to riders who are eligible for Limit, another prize list will say eligible for Novice.....which is it??? Why did we invent these divisions anyway, at least when you were a Maiden rider you knew where you belonged.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 08:12 AM
Mary, I think the part you did not understand was, if you look at a prize list many classes are divisions offered for kids like pre-eq that are 4 flat classes and 1 jump class that is not awarded at the dinner dance and maybe we could weed those out and really fill up pre-childrens and sh. st. divisions so when we split it is a warrented split. Enough lower level divisions are offered already. Wendy and Janet are so correct in not lets make things any easier.

Wendy, I remember those maiden days in a cast of thousands and your post was correct. But, look at it from this point. When you are a trainer or child riding in the pre-childrens and you are in a cast of many and you look over at the next ring and see the zone 2 childrens hunter split don't you just want to say hey, what's up with that? Personally I would love to see things the way they were years ago but that will never happen. Different day, different times. Also do not forget what grand-prix courses looked like way back when and how high they jumped. Do we want to bring that back? Let's look at proper changes here. Some pre-divisions are great but not pre- pre- pre- ones!!!

Kings Dairy Farm- Oh my god Mary I feel like I do not want to have a clue on what you are talking about but god help me I felt old with that one!!!! lol

Linda Prisco
May. 22, 2001, 08:18 AM
I remember showing at Kings Dairy, that big field on Jericho Tpk. That was many hoof prints ago.
Think they built houses there now. Nothing lasts forever /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 08:33 AM
M/N/L/ system was when someone told me years ago that because the Hampton Classic (at the end of the season) offered M/N/L that it was important to protect the kids' eligibility for those divisions, or they wouldn't have anything to show in come Classic time...since the Classic now has age based "open" equitation classes across the board now, this no longer makes any sense to me. Comments?

Deb, I'm following you now about the splits, and you and I are on the same wavelength.

May. 22, 2001, 09:37 AM

I'm a firm believer in the Ladder System and offered it at the Country Fair shows. Being able to move up was a reward of sorts, but now it is not about moving up. It is about how long one can stay in a division. We're all guilty of that, the system encourages it. The Ladder System probably won't work now, we have too many cheaters and the focus is for year end awards, not moving up mileage.


The AHSA has created The 3-Horse Split in their hunter divisions. I do not agree with The 3-Horse Split as it does not encourage competitiveness, but if it is offered and is part of the rules of the game, I'm there, you bet!! The LIHSA does not have to follow suit with its own unrated divisions if it opts not to.

I would like to see Betty Cantor's numbers on her Pre-Chldrens Hunters for the year 2000. How many ponies vs. horses, and how often?? I've been told that there were often not many ponies and the split would have been severely unbalanced. I can not see creating yet another LIHSA division for 4-5 ponies.

Also in talking with Betty, she mentioned that most kids in that group were not interested in LIHS Awards, so now tell me why we need to have it split in the LIHSA?

M. O'C is right, there needs to be a methodical progression of levels. Winners must move on and leave others to do some winning. The problem is that with kids staying in a division for a year or more, you start to get consistant winners who end up "owning" the division. Those who are not winning so much want the split to get away from the "owners". If we got back to the Ladder System, in both the hunters and eq, maybe people would feel more comfortable riding in a group of 12! They just have to get past the award focus thing.

[This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 22, 2001 at 11:48 AM.]

May. 22, 2001, 09:57 AM
When the numbers get big in the hunters the Increment System jumps in.

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 01:45 PM
Correct, they are moving up divisions but we are talking about hunter divisions and what can the LIHSAA do about people owning those divisions? If we would like to bring back the moving up ladder in eq. lets do it. How does living in a hunter division get solved?......... Correct-no solution,so why not make the playing field fair?

Boom, boom-is that gunfire I just heard? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

O.k. thank god I ducked. now, to continue on, the only way to keep people out of living in those divisions is to actually keep track of all eq. ribbons won. We could eliminate all of these high, low, and pre eq. classes then people would know where they stood. Is that a route we would like to take?

What was that noise? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 01:50 PM
That definitely has my vote!!!

The hunter problem has always been tricky...there is a need for people to support the shows and the high score award programs, yet there is also a need to provide incentive for advancement.

Some creativity is called for....some new ideas. Who's got some?

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 01:58 PM
Support means work and discussions Mary, and I am all up for it. Non active LIHSAA board members, are you getting the big picture yet?

In the modern day of computers can we not keep track of these things some easy way? Could not a clic of a button let you know it is time to get out of that division? It's not like it was way back when! Shows have tripled in size and rings have shrunk. I really have no idea how to solve this problem but there must be a way!

[This message was edited by Gold Dust on May. 22, 2001 at 04:05 PM.]

May. 22, 2001, 03:11 PM
Parents are so proud of their offspring when they graduate to the next grade in school, to the next color belt in Karate, or when they get to play first string in school sports, but the Moving On Thing in the horse world is poo-poo-ed. Why is that? Karin- Deb- you guys are parents- what's that all about?? Why isn't Short Stirrup viewed as the Kindergarten of the shows, Children's Hunter as Junior High, and Juniors and Big Eq as High School? Would you guys be happy if you child was held back for 2-3 years in the same grade at school??

If necessary, repeating a grade is a good thing, but if a child is ready to go on, why doesn't he/she? Why isn't the trainer embarrassed that their student is repeating Short Stirrup for the 3rd or 4th time??

[This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 22, 2001 at 05:19 PM.]

Linda Prisco
May. 22, 2001, 03:32 PM
It's funny but way back when we did have those divisions we didn't have secretaries or computers to keep track of our ribbons. I guess it was more or less the honor system, when you got your blue ribbons you moved on to the next division. Trainers would be embarassed to let their students continue to ride in a division they were no longer eligible for. Parents were happy to see the kids move up, it was an accomplishment. I think the trainers are responsible for allowing their students to compete in divisions they are no longer eligible for. After all, aren't we signing the entry blanks???????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 03:51 PM
Janet, you are correct that there are some people that keep there kids in divisions forever. Moving up is a great thing and should be encouraged and it is up to the trainer to say hey, time to step up! From a parent and trainers point of view I do not encourage milking a division. Now, is L.I. pre-divisions supposed to set the standards when right here in our own back yard we have ch. hunters and Ad. am. cleaning up L.I. and zone awards year after year. Get that computer out and look at pre-childrens hunter and zone 2 hunter divisions and lets see who has a major milk mustache here! Pre-childrens should be split until we really step back and look at the whole mirror here.
One more thing guys. Way back when splits were not done until huge amounts of horses, but go back in your memory banks and were the rings the size they are today? Where the kids did pre-childrens hunter this weekend and when we did maiden in those huge fields is no comparison!

M. O'Connor
May. 22, 2001, 04:38 PM
for the Maiden/Novice/Limit, though sometimes the Limit took place on the outside course or the Main Ring...I remember the ring behind Mid-Island Arena, the sand ring at Topping's, over on the side at St. Joseph's...

I also remember that we were all really tickled when we did manage to break the maiden, win the two more blues that would get us out of Novice, and that some of the kids just starting out in the Medal/Maclay were still eligible for Limit...

I think there are several factors that discourage people from moving on...The major one, I've already mentioned, is that it is no longer realistic to set your sights on accomplishing anything in the 3'6" divisions without making that move up to the multi-day A2 $chedule or to the 5-day A3's. For those with real serious deep pockets, that isn't a problem, but those people are not too often seen in the old stomping grounds after that move is made, because there is no incentive for them to attend. For those without the finances to play that multi-day game on a regular basis, they are out of luck. So, why not just go for Zone finals year in and year out? The way the present system is set up, it encourages this.

Gold Dust
May. 22, 2001, 05:06 PM
Lets face it, money is one big factor why people cann't move up. In todays market the difference between a 2'6'',3', and 3'6" horse is insane. Prices have gone through the roof. Some of these kids just can not move up so you will see a horse in that division year after year.It's the ones that have already been there and done that, that choose to stay in the lower divisions that need the kick to get out! Remember I am not talking about riders coming out with a new horse or pony it is the same combo year after year. Unfortunatly I believe it is more in zones then these little pre-divisions we are talking about now! Also take into consideration some horses can not step up in height because they are not athletic enough. What do we do with this problem?

May. 22, 2001, 05:49 PM
Dustwomen, I agree with you in what you are trying to get across, Well all I can say is that L.I. has more divisions to able people to stay at a level that they know that they can get prizes at, because if you are paying to compete you should be able to get a ribbon. Soon there will be one winner. Just like "lead line" and the rest get light blue. I hate to sound judgemental but L.I. should try to make it where the riders move on. To benefit the riders and make the parents feel like they are getting something for there money besides ribbons. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

May. 22, 2001, 05:58 PM
Ok, not to get off the subject here but I just wanted to mention this, I dont remember when there was a Kings Diary show grounds, I only remember a "DAIRY QUEEN" and I got ice cream there! lol, /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

May. 22, 2001, 08:13 PM
Wow, Kings Dairy. Brings back many memories.

Laura Reed
May. 22, 2001, 08:26 PM
On all posts, above. I must say, Long Island, at least on this thread, seems a microcosm of the industry at large. A small group of vocalists, but over 1,000 lurkers! So I guess we're all facing the same dilemna? Ideas welcome! Lurkers -speak up here. It's a good discussion.

Lots of issues here. I do think going back to a real maiden-novice-limit standard would go a long way to moving riders up. What a thrill it was, way back when, to move out of one status for another. H**L, I was out of Novice after my first show, and the challenges at the Limit level were just what I needed to move up to that terrifying 3'6" division -- there was no other option! That was then. . .and believe it or not, the Rule Book still has specs for all this stuff.

Today, life is just to darn easy. That's not to say ribbons, at whatever level, aren't gratifying. This brings us back to the entire SPLIT or not-to SPLIT scenario. The more splits, the more opportunity for a ribbon. This is the case on the very local level (i.e. LI High Score) OR the Zone or National Level.

FYI: hunter sections, with the exception of Green, A/O and Adult Amat. can NOT be split until there are 39 entries. Reference: AHSA Art. 2408.

There's a solution out there. Consider this an open invitation to all, for input, because we really do need to analyze all of it, from all view points.

May. 23, 2001, 05:59 AM
Using the size of the ring as an argument for splitting is really stretching it. As a junior, in the late '60's I did the M/N/L and the flat classes were usually held in the "Flat Ring", which was a ring that was too small for any jumping classes to be held in it.

I still believe that it is the management's or judge's responsibility to require splitting flat classes if they get too large and appear, in the least bit, unsafe. As a show manager I always told my judges to use their discretion, especially at the canter. And I paid attention too.

On the subject of staying too long in some divisions- M. O'C is again right. If you are talking about the C-rated Adults and Childrens hunter divisions, some, I'm no exception, view those as their final goal. This is due to $ and their horses' abilities. But I don't think that the Pre-groups should be considered someone's last attainable goal, especially if they are whippin' everyone else's butt in it.

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 23, 2001, 06:08 AM
Wow, King's Dairy!! I remember the rain and mud one time was so bad, everyone was stuck except Mikey!! That blue truck of his must have gotten a push from some leprechauns!!! I used the snow fence to drive over to get my truck out!! Maybe I shouldn't be admitting that now- The Fallons are probably still looking for the guy who recked all their snow fencing!!!

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

M. O'Connor
May. 23, 2001, 06:14 AM
equitation, is that the courses and tests required at each level increased in degree of difficulty in a logical way.

Right now, the Lo/Hi Children's eq are run over the exact same courses that the Pre-Children's or Children's Hunters do...Often, these divisions are perceived only as a warm-up for the hunters...The only variation in difficulty is the height of the fences, which, in my opionion, is more an indication of a horse's scope and ability than the rider's...

Not only was it a thrill to move up the ladder, but the required course got more difficult as well. In the Limit, one needed to be prepared to jump an in-and-out, and the Mini's were a preparation for the 3'6" equitation, not an ultimate goal. All the specs are still there, but show managements need to be convinced to ressurect these divisions on a regular basis. Perhaps if we could keep track of the riders winnings, it wouldn't be a bad idea to present certificates at the awards dinner to those who have moved up on merit? A few pieces of paper really wouldn't set us back too much? And think of the scene five or six years from now, when the big-eq divisions would actually fill on a regular basis, allowing those with limited budgets to fulfil meaningful goals without having to travel too far from home?

Gold Dust
May. 23, 2001, 09:06 AM
First off, Janet, the neighbor thing has me on the floor and OH SO TRUE! Was that a Libby quote? Tell her my hats off to her!
Now, number one. The size of the ring should not matter but from a trainers point of view seeing larger rings right across from you with less people flating in it can be frustrating. I think the Hamptons has a great idea with the main hunter ring. How about we open the ring up for flat classes?
Number 2. Unfortunatly some people have peaked at 2'6'' because of the athletic ability of the horse. With the prices of horses today,the $3,5000 special is a throw of the dice when you are dealing with people with limited funds! The pre groups are your 2'6'' group so what do we do about that?
Number 3. Let's decide here in our little message board world. Do we not want splits anymore? Do we want to go back to the ladder system? If majority says yes then, Low hunter Am/pro split-gone. Did you know in zones sm, med. and lg. ponies all run as one. so, that split, gone. No more eq. classes. Just, m/N/L. Adult A&B split-gone. I do not feel it should all start with the pre-childrens hunter. If we want to do this, then, lets do it to all! That's the old days people. Will it work today? If majority thinks it will work in this era I am all for giving it a try!

Gold Dust
May. 23, 2001, 09:09 AM
Boom from the left,Bang from the right!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

May. 23, 2001, 03:25 PM
Wow, I'd better get my a** to a show and see what kind of classes are out there before I go showing. Why can't people leave things alone as long as they're going well? (or haven't they) It suc*s when you've been out so long.

May. 23, 2001, 03:29 PM
Janet, I think I remember when you used the snow fence that time (unless it was before my showing time) at Kings Dairy. It was ALWAYS muddy there. Does anyone remember when Harry deLeyer was beating the crap out of someone in their truck while they were driving and he was on the drivers side at Hugh's show? I really miss him.

May. 23, 2001, 05:38 PM
Hey guys, are we enjoying the rain?

I am not sure an across the board refusal to split any class is going to work either. At least for those "rated" divisions that are covered under the AHSA rule book. As far as the "unrated" classes that the LIHSAA has instituted the division between professional and amateur is kind of obvious, and working very well I might add, but there could be a minimum number of entries required to split.

If we are looking to split, lets say the pre-childrens hunter, or the pre equitation what should the breakdown be? By Horse and Pony, or by age of the child, or just a split based on the total number entered? Should there be another award given, or do all the points add up toward the same end of year prize? I personally don't want to split at 12 just so everyone gets a prize, I think 17 or 18 is a good number.

If we split what happens to the increment system, if we never get over 8 riders in the ring? Boy that will make the Hampton Classis classes look trememdous!!


M. O'Connor
May. 23, 2001, 05:57 PM
An aged based split might actually be a very good idea...that is how the eq divisions are now split at the Hampton Classic, anyway.

May. 23, 2001, 06:25 PM
I hope Betty comes to the next meeting. She has a lot of facts and figures concerning all the class entrants. Maybe she can shed some light on the age split idea. If I see her at Sunday's show I will make sure to invite her.

Gold Dust
May. 23, 2001, 07:52 PM
I didn't think no splits would be popular! If we are going to split one, then the splits should continue. Pre-childrens should be split horses and ponies not age. Look at it this way- ponies jump a different height. If you go by the book striding should be re-adjusted then so it makes sense to make a split by that. No one wants to go against a few horses but it IS going to happen at times. The only way to stop it is no splits across the board and trust me the masses will freak. That is what I meant by looking at the whole picture. We have destined ourselves to split divisions the first time we did it.

May. 24, 2001, 05:28 AM
Hey Judge, I was there when that incident happened when Harry deLeyer jumped in the back of the truck and was punching at the guy, well I guess I would do the same thing if someone back into my horse with a truck and proceeded to go. See hit and run happens in the show world too, but Harry caught up with the person. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

May. 24, 2001, 06:10 AM
Since I don't have the data can anyone tell me if the divisions in question, pre-childrens equitation and hunters, were actually split last year, or did this just happen in the 2001 season? If they were split in 2000 do we know if Micheal counted those points? I have heard that this year he chose to throw out the split points.

Does anyone have the breakdown of how many horses vs ponies are in these divisions? How about the age groups of the riders competing?

If we are destined to split I kind of like the age idea for the equitation. Younger riders are usually the less experienced and it is hard for an 8 year old to complete against a 15 or 17 year old.

I still think that we should not split unless the numbers show that six would complete in the division on a regular basis. Ribbons and their points should be earned and not given away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 06:58 AM
Everyone does understand I am just trying to make 'whats good for one is good for the other'here! Splits were originally made for even playing fields. In a perfect world all could come home with a ribbon. Please try to understand I am doing an aerial view from the show. Am. should not have to ride against pro, olders should not have to go against youngers and ponies should not have to go against horses. This will make divisions small at times but the altrnate route is no splits and it seems that does not sound good either so we must take the lesser of two evil routes.

As far as the splits for the eq. divisions what is the problem here? None are end of year award winning divisions so if managment wants more to come home with ribbons that day and time permits them let them split away.

Pre-childrens hunter. I have had a horse campaign in for the last two years. Last year the ponies were in the majority, this year it seems like horses. So, like any division,the tide swings from year to year but I can state it is a strong division and warrents a split.

As far as numbers when to split, that should be the real issue here. I think the AHSA has set us in for the #3. If LIHSAA wants to make a # then that is fine but remember, your looking at another can of worms because what do we do with the Am. pro. low hunter split. All have stated how popular that division is and what will happen down the line at the small shows when they go together? Sometimes we have scathed through on a split there. I have an Am. so of course I am for keeping the number 3 there. So, what would be the magic number the masses will want?

[This message was edited by Gold Dust on May. 24, 2001 at 09:31 AM.]

May. 24, 2001, 07:39 AM
Well I have to say that I understand everyone persective on this issue, but lets try and be grownup's here, if there are going to be splits given dont you think it should be just between the childrens divisions? I mean come on that low hunter division is a joke. Pro/Am. Why cant it all be considered one. Why does everything have to be split. Answer me that, I understand that Amatuers dont want to show against Pro's, but that is just to bad, Myself and others had too show with them all, We just went out there and tried our best, And what ever we ended up with we were either happy or a little disappointed in what we recieved. But we still did it. When you move up to the next level after the Low hunters as a amatuer or Junior then you will be showing againt your own kind. But until then buck up and ride it out, Just like we had too, This make up splits for these divisions is just ridiculous. What will be next splits by color of horse?

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 08:19 AM
I think I was to blame on that one. The reason that came in to play was because I thought the pre-adults should be considered beginners and I believed it should be kept that way. The low hunter split came in to play so the highter level Am. did not have to ride with the pros and as it has been stated it IS a strong division and I think should stay that way.

If we raise the split # the low hunter I believe will cause the same point counting problem as the past Rice Farms pre-children hunter class. Please, how about some possible solutions to the problem. It is plain as day we can bi** all day but where is the solution? Suggestions!

May. 24, 2001, 08:19 AM
In defense of splitting the Lows (because it directly effects me!!)- The children and adults that are no longer novice riders need a place to go with green horses where they do not ride against PROFESSIONALS. If the division is for green horses, I should think, and hope, that the pro would come out on top. So with that split the Playing Field is level.

The Goose and Gander Theory- In the Pre Childrens, the same caliber rider is expected riding the same or similarly educated horse/pony. So now, just because one division is split we should find a way to split others? The argument now, is horses shouldn't compete against ponies. Why not? The height of the jumps allows for the Even Playing Field, no?

I still am a proponent of changing the rule for BOTH the Pre-groups to horse and rider combo not to have shown over jumps 3'or higher and in their 1st or 2nd year of showing. This will include those with green ones, but will also encourage the others to move along, either to the eq or 3' hunters, or another horse. If there are some who can't move on to 3' or another horse, they can show in the eq forever. That division is only 2'6".

Try and remember, those 2 divisions, the Pre-groups, are PRE-divisions- PRE- meaning something follows them.

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

[This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 24, 2001 at 10:33 AM.]

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 08:34 AM
Let, me see if I got that. Do you feel the word pre- should make that same spec as the low hunter has now? That would definitly keep the hunter division from being milked! There's one way! Great idea and just NEVER add one of those eq. division as an end of year and that could solve many problems.
As far as fence height evening the playing field, then why does the AHSA split all the ponies up sm.,med., and large? We do it here on L.I. too and all I hear the trainers say is the small cann't jump the large height.[at least not that often] So it is pinned seperatly.

May. 24, 2001, 08:36 AM
Deb, I revamped my last post. But thanks for the pat on the back!!

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 24, 2001, 08:46 AM
Regular Ponies, and even Childens Hunters are split because they are the advanced, "high tech" divisions. They should be specialized at that level. But the Pre- groups are for mileage and do not need to be finely catagorized.

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

[This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 24, 2001 at 11:02 AM.]

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 10:06 AM
Are the kids in the ch. hunter world not better riders already. While the pre- kids are getting the mileage they need, should they not be able to have some fine tuning also?

This could go on and on-Jump in you lurkers. I know who some of you are now!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Linda Prisco
May. 24, 2001, 10:48 AM
I have to agree with Ponypulr that the Low Hunters should be split. Amateurs don't want to ride against the professionals nor do I think that is a fair playing field.
If we ever returned to the old standard of Maiden-Open would that not be able to get rid of the pre-childrens equit. and the Childrens high low equit.? Wouldn't that help to move riders thru the levels without them living in a division till they grew old???
Can someone please tell me the real spec. on the fence height for all these pre-adult, pre-childrens hunter and equit. classes??? Every prize list has a different fence height anywhere from 2' to 2'6''. You'll probably say "Well what's the difference, 3" here or there, but to many adults that 3" can seem like alot. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 11:07 AM
If we are taking a poll here when it comes to the Am., pro. split I am all for it. Hell, I don't even want to ride against Marty. Now there's a split for you, husbands and wives do not have to ride aginst each other!
Now, this pre children spec. Kids can do the division as long as they are considered novice eq. riders. As long as they never compete in any eq. class that division can be milked for life. Ponies jump 2' horse jump 2'6". Pre-Adult are limit eq. riders, jump 2'6". Same theory for them. If they never do an eq. class they can milk that for life too! See where this is going yet?

Linda Prisco
May. 24, 2001, 11:39 AM
I hear ya Goldust but............ every prize list has different specs. I know ponies jump 2'and horses 2'6", but pic up a prize list and compare a few of them. Each one will have a different fence height ranging from 2'-2'6". I know it doesn't seem like a big deal, but as I said, when it comes to older adults their first time out, 3" can seem like 3'....know what I mean??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 11:45 AM
I had a pre-adult 2 years ago and let me tell you, no one knew what height it was supposed to be. Some thought 2'3" some thought 2'. At least today I think they have at least the height down.This is the problem with new divisions at times. Specs were not clear and it took some time to work out the kinks. This is where I hope 2002 will be a more organized LIHSAA!

May. 24, 2001, 12:03 PM
Well Well Well, Finally I am on this bulletin, I actually cant believe all that I am reading, I agree with Debbie about showing against Husbands and Wives, anyway I have to be honest with you I rather get rid of all these divisions and go back to the way things were, You cant seem to get the rules and regulations straight, you can keep making up rules as you go, that is why there is so much termoil to it all, you are trying to make things fair but the rules keep changing because it interacts with something else. Someone has to make the decision on what its going to be and stick by it and who ever doesnt like it well to bad, we need a CHIEF to make the decision final, but all us Indians just aint cutting it. But lets get on with it so we can put this to rest. Dont get me wrong I like showing and agree on fairness but I also rode in a time where we didnt have all these divisions, I just strap my ----- on and rode with who ever I had to, I didnt complain why for what reason, its not just a ribbon I was after I rode for myself. If you have confidence in yourself and horse then step up to the bat. if not well then work harder at it, you cant go through life making things up as you go.

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 12:41 PM
Oh, you have no idea how much easier my life has just become. Finally, she can post herself without calling me every night telling me what she would say. Mind you people, we are in BIG trouble now! Go easy on eveyone now Chris. You don't need a bunch of enemies on day one of posting! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Yes Chris, times have changed so we are all trying to change with them and not let it be just handing ribbons over. Janet and I were just talking about how far back do we really want to go. If we jump back too far the lowest hunter division will be the first year working and oh how hilarious that would be.

Heads up people. The Queen of the East has arrived! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 02:08 PM
It has just been brought to my attention that the specs for the pre-adult hunter do not match from prize list to prize list! Here we go people. And you wonder why no one can figure out how high a division is to jump and what makes you eligible to do one. Issue #967 to take care of at future meetings.

M. O'Connor
May. 24, 2001, 03:52 PM
I thought Karin and I were going to duke it out for that title-- but Chris has us beat, she is FURTHER to the east!!

I think Chris has made some good points--all this chipping away at things bit by bit without looking at the big picture isn't great. A big step back and careful analysis of what works and what doesn't, complete with Betty's numbers and the stats from last year's shows is what is needed. I don't know about just one CHIEF, I think alot of good ideas have come out of getting all the Indians riled up...I like the idea of the 15 member committee with 3 pros, 3 amateurs, 3 members of show management, 3 LOC's, and 3 of....(who were the other 3 supposed to be??) well, you get the drift...more people having a voice in a well-defined process is better than a select few making rules that the rest have to live with when they had no say about it.

May. 24, 2001, 04:58 PM
Hey thanks Mary for the title of "Queen" Its better then being titled the Witch of the East! But I think Debbie has that title already issued of "Witch of the West" I dont want to rain on her parade!!!!! Had to say it Deb, but you know I LOVE YA!!!!
I had to break up the ice a little with this LI split thing.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 05:19 PM
You know I love ya too Chris but who was it under the house in the Wizard of Oz? Remember those little feet and those striped socks! I think it was the one from the east and the west lived on!!!!!
Hey, there's a new split for you. Which end of the Island you live on!!!
Mary, go easy on her- we can barely get her head through the door at times! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

May. 24, 2001, 05:42 PM
Ok Deb, sorry to tell you this but when it comes to this site we are not family anymore. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Remember who loves ya though!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
May the best best Witch win!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

May. 24, 2001, 06:27 PM
Another voice from the Peanut Gallery!!! Chris- you are so FREEKIN' funny!!!

And, I don't think you are the Queen from the East- You are the PRINCESS from the East!!

Back to the matter at hand- The specs for the High Score divisions are correctly listed at the website. How can there be controversy?

See what I mean with these dang unrated divisions?? Everyone's got their own idea of what a Pre-this and a Pre-that should be.

So Chris- Got any ideas of who the CHIEF should be??

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 24, 2001, 06:55 PM
Hi Janet
I know this has been awaiting my arrival, I know that I can call it like it is, a spade a spade but Long Island has me really confused, Like Linda Prisco menitioned about the prizelists reading different specs on these pre divisions.
If Long Island high score had such rules and regulations then why arent they printed in the prize as a description on who qualifies and who doesnt Just like every other division does.
I guess maybe we will find out at the next meeting! I know everyone has there idea's on what qualifies one to show in what and whatever, but we really need to focus on the whole picture here and just put our heads together and come up with a solution on some divisions that are being offered that will make some sense to everyone. And we also have to be able to walk away on what ever is the resulting answer,because you all know as well as I you arent going to keep eveyone happy in the horse world. Everyone has there own ideas, motives etc. But it would be nice if we can a least get the division spec's recified. I have to say one thing where is COUNTRY FAIR HORSE SHOWS when you need them. That is why it doesnt exist in my eyes, these divisions should be offered there, and we wouldnt have half these problems. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

May. 24, 2001, 07:02 PM
I just got in the mail today from Evelyn, the official Dissolution papers from the county clerk's office. It really is dead, now.

Country Fair Horse Show

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 07:05 PM
Jeezus, take time out for dinner and all family ties are broken!!! lol
Yup, much to much confusion here! Prize lists do not match and finally I hear up to date specs are on the web site! June 11th cann't come to quick for me. I really want to get started on this.
Chris, read one of my posts on Country Fair. I think I said I was going to have Gold Dust Farm camp out on her lawn until she gave in to a 2002 prize list. How about adding some of that East End Stables crew!!!

May. 24, 2001, 07:07 PM
Yeah another voice!! I keep asking if Janet misses COUNTRY FAIR yet and so far she is still very happy in her "retirement" . Can you believe she has even taken up TRAIL RIDING, kind of like golf for the regular non horsey people.

Which should come first the LIHSAA commitee or the split/rules controversy? or is that the chicken and the egg thing? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Linda Prisco
May. 24, 2001, 07:19 PM
Sure going to miss those Country Fair Horse Shows...... You did a really GREAT job Janet!!
They are definetly going to be missed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Gold Dust
May. 24, 2001, 07:55 PM
Janet and I are on the phone right now reading horse show prize lists specs.......
go get your own laugh.....
to be continued

Linda Prisco
May. 24, 2001, 08:09 PM
If you guys are reading these prize lists, do you see what I am saying??? I realize the spec. are on the LIHSAA web site, but they differ from prize list to prize list. I have enough trouble remembering my students names these days let alone remembering the specs for those divisions.If I'm crazy just let me know and I'll put this to rest. Hate to keep repeating but.... shouldn't the specs read the same in all the prize lists??? I'm sure Janet is rolling her eyes by now ..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif What's the big deal, 3"

Laura Reed
May. 24, 2001, 08:42 PM
There are no easy solutions to these problems, and I wish some of the lurkers out there, who may not be on Long Island, or even in Zone 2, would add their two cents!

Those of us who remember what it was like way-back-when, have recognized (I think) the fact that A) standards have changed and B) money drives this business. Now, what do we do to fix it all?

Split vs. no split; specs that make sense at the local AND Zone levels; year-end awards that are meaningful; a re-ramping of the system, in terms of moving up, in a logical progression; ribbbons for all (i.e. split the division so every one can go home happy ?) or raise the bar competitively?

Everyone who has posted above has offered some personal view points and possible solutions. Now, how do we implement them and make them work?

I look forward to the next PHA and the next LIHSAA meeting, and in the meantime -- PLEASE PLEASE try to fill the Adult Equit. classes this weekend!

Laura Reed
May. 24, 2001, 08:46 PM
AOL is tempermental tonight. And P.S.: every prize list should publish the correct specifcations for each divsision - whether it's AHSA Zone or Local specs. Problem is, most people don't read the fine print. That's when you should ask the Steward to show you the specs for the class/division, whether it's AHSA / NAL/Ariat/StateLine/LIHSAA/ WIHS/ USET / Medal or Maclay.

And by the way, all of this info is available on the aforementioned websites, so you can read the basics and/or print them out in case the prize list doesn't include the full monty.

[This message was edited by Laura Reed on May. 24, 2001 at 10:59 PM.]

May. 24, 2001, 09:39 PM
I can't believe I finally figured how to log on-guess chris gave me the courage to really try.

In reading through all these posts, many of you are getting away from the true purpose of this sport. TO HAVE FUN. As Debbie has stated sometimes there is more to the situation than meets the eye, and what really is wrong with the splits, what is wrong with rewarding a child or a beginner adult with a ribbon at the end of the day, and what is wrong with rewarding a child who doesn't have a 3'6" horse or even a 3" horse with an end of the year ribbon. As far as certain riders owning a division, aren't these the same riders who are there every weekend, when it is too hot, too cold, and raining.

Let me just say in closing thank you Chris deLeyer for giving me the strength to wade through the registration process.

May. 25, 2001, 05:23 AM
Your welcome "Lurkenomore", Ok enough with this RAIN already, I think we made up for the 5 weeks that we didnt get any. Deb you better ask Marty to build you and indoor next and to forget about putting up the paneling for the tack room!!!!hehe
Well I hope evryone has a good Memorial Day weekend even though the rain is going to stay until then try and make the best of it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M. O'Connor
May. 25, 2001, 05:46 AM
<< specs that make sense at the local AND Zone levels; year-end awards that are meaningful; a re-ramping of the system, in terms of moving up in a logical progression>>

Laura, you said it--if all this were in place, I think that there would be far less talk of further splits...Obviously, much work needs to be done, a consensus needs to be found, and standards need to be defined applied across the board.

If the division specs are on the website and in the hands of the show managers, why all the confusion with the prize lists? Isn't prize list making these days a simple matter of select-copy-paste and take it to the printers?

May. 25, 2001, 06:32 AM
Well, apparently, the specs on the website were incorrect up 'till recently. That caused the problem with the Pre-Childrens Hunter split at Jimmy's show.

As far as everyone going home with a ribbon- I don't think that's healthy for the sport.

And Laura- Great post, how 'bout some suggestions from you and some input from other LIHSA members??!!

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 25, 2001, 07:31 AM
This is kind of off the topic at hand, but does anyone know when Michael is going to get to work at updating the LIHSAA website. We are now more than halfway through the year and he has maybe 9 shows posted.

Last year, with the website reasonably up to date it seemed more competitve than now.

Another question, why is everyone trying to fix something that is not broken. First the twenty best show discussion, now the pre-childrens/adult debate. I thought that the professionals objective was to earn a living(any gratification is a plus), the amateurs/children should be having FUN. In theory, everyone should move up, but I don't see too many doing that? If everyone were to move up, wouldn't there be more 3'6" riders. What if someone hasn't the guts or horse to move up-should they be precluded from enjoying a sport that they love?

Perhaps these discussions have always taken place, but now that they are on-line it is in a more public forum; but why is everyone so intent on changing something that is working just fine.

May. 25, 2001, 08:04 AM
The biggest and most recently discovered problem is that several prize lists have specs to divisions that do not jibe up with the specs required by LIHSAA. That is a HUGE problem.

Consequently, the Rice Farms show split a division that LIHSAA said was not to be split. This happened because the specs on the website, at that time, were incorrect. Another BIG problem.

LIHSAA, the website, and horse show prize lists must all have the same specs.

In creating the specs, in the past, LIHSAA decided amoungst themselves, with very little input from the outside world. Big problem.

So, the order in which things get done, who decides them, and what they actually are, need to be fixed. So, NO, things are not working fine.

Sorry to bite your head off, LURKNNOMORE!! If not for people like you, the discussion would die. Thank you for your input and keep the thoughts comin'.

Where are the rest of you opinionated-but-too-chicken-to-say-anything LI show groupies???

How 'bout the secretary that chewed my ear off(and made me miss the first part of FRIENDS finale) last week when I called my entries in- You had great thoughts- WHERE ARE YOU NOW???

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 08:09 AM
Chris,Lurkn, this is great. New people, it is about time! I would like to go fully armed at the june11th meeting so the more on this thread the bigger impact it will make! First matter of hand, I am in the process of leasing property from the park for the indoor so when it goes through I will be there to dismantal EastEnd Stables ring shortly! LOL Sorry Chris, in my world the tack room is about as big a dream can get here in Smithtown!!

Chicken and the egg thing! COMITTEE first. Why bother hashing rules around in my opinion
until L.I. gets proper representation. Passing any rules now could very well fall on deaf ears and there are not enough people in the trenches week to week on that comittee for me!

Prize Lists. Read them people. Laura, unfortunatlly even if you read the fine print not one of them jive. The L.I. classic horse show is the only one with updated specs. This shows me that way too many managers really did not clearly understand some rule changes so that is why the LIHSAA forum must change its procedure! Laura, you are correct that we could go to the steward the day of the show but when we call our entries in we should already know what divisions we can and can not due and which ones could be split. Cut-Paste-Print, yup Mary, it is that simple!

What to split. No secret I want pre-ch. hunter split horse and pony. Like I said befor, If it is not an end of year award and time permits it tell me LIHSAA members, why do you care if show managers want to split those other divisions? There is where all may be able to come home with ribbons. End of year awards, no, I am not for making that easy, but fair. Split real childrens world then no reason pre- can not be split. At times I think it is all about having fun so let the managers split those divisions and allow the little kids to bring home a piece of fabric!

Web-site is a mystery to me. I know Michael said he was still doing it but............ I have heard so many different things I can not even begin to sort facts from talk! One thing I do know it is a large undertaking and hope he still has the time to take this on. Running a farm is a huge time consuming day so lack of time would be totally understood!

More rain today so the message board Marathon continues. More lurkers, step up to the plate[bat] whatever!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Gold Dust on May. 25, 2001 at 10:35 AM.]

May. 25, 2001, 08:37 AM
When speaking of Rice Farms incorrectly splitting the division, how many were in each split, there seemed to be an awful lot of ponies and horses.(I assume it to be the pre-childrens we are referring to).

I personally feel that division should be split ponies/horses for an end of the year award. Isn't it the only division that horses and ponies are required to compete. Doesn't it seem that the horses will always be at a disadvantage? Generally, aren't ponies better movers?

Last year at the dinner dance I remember being shocked that everyone in that division who won an end of the year award was a first time winner.

As far as the specs being consistant, they should be, but they should be consistant from day 1 of the show year, not from June. I still would like to know if it is true that some results were discarded.

I don't take offense to your reply, and think it's great that we have this forum-I just don't know if anything is going to be accomplished by it. I think it's wonderful that these issues are being discussed, rather than being decided behind closed doors; but any decisions to change should occur prior to the start of the show year-not now.

May. 25, 2001, 08:48 AM
Why is it on Long Island the Adult Eq doesn't fill? Just the PHA and the Ariat sometimes which is used as a warm up by the A/A hunter riders. I just recently became a senior rider and I wanted to show in the Eq but it never seemed to happen because it did not fill, so now I'm doing the A/A hunters. Also would someone like to tell me where all those Adult Eq riders come from at the Hampton Classic and where are they the rest of the year? When I was at HITS the Adult Eq was spilt in 3 ages groups and was filled in every class. Is it just bigger everywhere else other than Long Island?

May. 25, 2001, 08:48 AM
Debbie, better watch that dismantling joke, you know how rumors get started in this industry-LOL.

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 09:01 AM
To this date I believe the Rice Farms results are floating in the abbys of 'what do we do with these' pile. There has been talk of discarding them but I feel the exhibitor should not pay for mistakes made at this point.
As far as ponies or horses having an upper hand in that division I just feel if the AHSA splits them up so should we. All could feel differently on that and that discussion could go on forever!
I believe we are fighting for more organization for the year 2002 but many matters can be put to rest at the current time also! Since so many prize lists do not jive for this year we can not wait until then to put matters to rest.
God help me this rain had better stop or someone will have to peel me off this computer chair!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 09:14 AM
Shazam, welcome. New input seems the theme of the day! well, as far as the Adult Eq. goes many horse shows do not offer the Med/Maclay and I wish they would. I saw last week at Hunters Isle it looked like it filled so I hope that division picks up this year. We had a Hamptons thread going a while back and that same question was asked. Where do all those Adults come from?!!!

Lurkn, I seem to be at the core of all rumors for years and years now. I just roll with it but remember- 'Hell hath no fury when you p*** me off'! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

M. O'Connor
May. 25, 2001, 11:25 AM
<<I just don't know if anything is going to be accomplished by it. I think it's wonderful that these issues are being discussed, rather than being decided behind closed doors; but any decisions to change should occur prior to the start of the show year-not now.>>

I think there is pretty wide agreement that all this discussion is leading to getting organized for the year 2002.

May. 25, 2001, 12:42 PM
And we need to start on it now, Dec. 1st will be here before you know it!!

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 02:41 PM
Not only do we have to be totally organized by Dec. 1st,there are multitudes of exsisting problems that need to be dealt with so I will be curious to see the attendance of current board members on the June11th meeting!

M. O'Connor
May. 25, 2001, 05:10 PM

Anyway. The 11th is the open LIHSAA mtg, correct? There is PHA meeting the week before (the 4th)? Just getting all these dates written down...now that we'll soon be flipping the page to June...

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 05:43 PM
Just remember Mary, they are always with you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
June 4th is the regular PHA meeting. Mrs. Rice e-mailed me today to let me know it did not go through to your e-mail Mary. Yours too Linda. I have to call Mike and Frank to remind them also. I am not going to the show this weekend so can someone remind them please! And if mike starts sticking a fork in his eye again I am going to get him. You missed that one Linda. That's when the both of you were bound and determined to try to get me to loose it!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif LOL

Laura Reed
May. 25, 2001, 06:04 PM
I don't want to start a new thread, since I know the posters who already here will be able to answer my question:

What is the footing like at Hunter's Isle after a lot of rain? I'm assuming the weather reports are accurate, and we will have steady / sometimes heavy rain Saturday. So what can I expect the footing to be like on the grass at Hunter's Isle Sunday?

I really really really want to show, (in the Adult Eq, all four classes) but trainer says we won't go if it pours Saturday. What do y'all think about footing there, if it gets soaked? Thanks much.

P.S. to Mary: So very sorry about your old lab. I feel for you.

May. 25, 2001, 06:06 PM
Lurknnomore: Debbie said East End, not one with a similar name. Let's not give you-know-who
a heart attack and get Ms. Debs in big trouble. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, Deb, if you need to pass on a message to Mike and Frank, Alyshazam (hi "Aly"!) could probably help you out, that is, if they hadn't already left for HITS.

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 06:17 PM
That's why I am not going this weekend Laura. weather report is not in our favor. Hunter rings get slick and main ring gets divits galore. Hate to miss one of Jimmys shows but will catch him at St. Cup on the 16th. One thing L.I. has taught me,with so many shows on the roster, no need to get wet anymore. There's another one right round the corner!!!
Thanks Jane but my motto is 'Go ahead, hit me with your best shot'!!. At least its great to know your in my corner. And......was that a hint on who shazam is?!!!!

May. 25, 2001, 06:29 PM
I figured you'd be a Pat Benatar kinda girl! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

No, not a hint. I don't think you know who "Aly" is, but she rides with Frank.

I agree about the slippery footing at shows...I'm a big wuss, even if I'm not the one in the saddle. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 25, 2001, 08:16 PM
Another lurker coming out from around the corner. In response to alyshazam's post, I would like to do the adult eq. but not with the height at 2'6". It used to be 3', why was it changed? Maybe if it was a little more challanging, there would be more entries. Why not have it in the main ring instead of on the hunt course? Make it more like the Juniors open division, instead of making it a warm-up for the AAO. I don't know if this would change anything, but it would certainly spark my interest. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Laura Reed
May. 25, 2001, 08:29 PM
Hey, I'm happy with 2'6" for the adult eq. at this very moment, because I'm just getting my feet wet. But YES, I agree, let's see some legitimate 3' eq. classes for adults soon, 'coz those courses in late August at Bridgehampton are a solid 3'!!! Meanwhile, I'm just praying the division fills at the shows on my sched.

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 08:59 PM
The Hugh and Robert are at 2'6'' and the PHA and Ariat are at 3'. All the L.I. Classic shows have the Adult Eq. in the main ring so I hope to see you guys there. When I had Lynn Esposito doing it we had to beg people to do it! I believe Marty has 2 that would like to show in it also so hope to see a full division this year!

Gold Dust
May. 25, 2001, 09:02 PM

May. 26, 2001, 05:41 AM
Hey Laura if you really want to get your feet actually wet go to the show on Sunday it still should be raining!!!! LOL. And about the footing if it stops raining somethime today the footing might not be as bad as you think, remember its sand under the grass there.
Deb you must be loving this weather you can nap all day, or you got sores on your --- from being on the computer. Hey where has brilytrip been?

Well have to go and start my Memorial Day weekend, YIKES!!

Mary I am so sorry to hear about your Lab, I have one myself they are so loyal that is what makes them so lovable and why they are missed. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 26, 2001, 06:09 AM
Mary- Sorry to hear about your dog. Do you have others to at least fill the void?

Laura- I've never had any problem with the footing at Coram. But since it was so hard and dry, the grass got pretty beat away. Things may have changed, especially at the ends of the ring. You can't avoid the ends, no matter where the jumps are. They always get trashed.

Does anyone know if there is a show on the weekend of June 10-11?? A show on LI, that is. How 'bout the unrated world?? Anything?

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 26, 2001, 06:31 AM
Getting back to the LIHSAA and the divisions offered, since the lows in effect became the old pre-greens there isn't anywhere to show an older horse who can no longer do 3'. I know that the LIHSAA cannot cater to every single individuals needs, but there should be some division to show these horses in other than pre-adult/children. I know we have the eq, but can't there be some sort of hunter division-maybe geriatric hunter(LOL).

It appears that Michael has done something new with the website-don't see any change in the points or show posted-maybe just added a new scrolling banner.

M. O'Connor
May. 26, 2001, 07:57 AM
Other dogs...4 JR's (mom and one puppy from each of her 3 litters, no more puppies though, she is now spayed)...but the swarming little white guys don't look the same without the big yellow lab sitting in the middle of them...She was 9 or 10 (a shelter adoptee, supposedly 2 when we got her)---and had Cushing's...the end was quick, and she had a good life; we knew her days were numbered, but still...

BTW, my 2yo JR male is ready to see some action wife-wise if anyone has a JR female....

June 10--is Salt River??

I hope someone is keeping a list of all the suggestions/requests about what divisions are needed/surpluss...and to prevent total chaos at the June 11th meeting I suggest that the LIHSAA draw up an agenda...re chicken/egg, I think definitely the chicken: discuss the makeup of the committee, revisions of same, and then determine a procedure for nominating and VOTING in of new members...only THEN, will those who WANT TO BE HEARD have a slate of individuals whose responsibility will be to LISTEN, and then ACT to devise SOLUTIONS...I think that structuring the process is really important if we are going to get anything accomplished...I think that revamping the divisions is secondary to agreeing on the process by which this should be done. Disagreement about this is what got this ball rolling in the first place...There is alot to think about before Dec 1, and we surely should not think that June 11 will be the magic date on which everything will be decided. Not to mention that there is an existing LIHSAA committee that will have to decide where it stands on all this and what position it intends to take regarding all of it before anything can go forward.

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on May. 26, 2001 at 10:04 AM.]

Gold Dust
May. 26, 2001, 08:28 AM
I can not believe it is still raining. Not only will I need help out of this chair i went food shopping last night and am armed with all sorts of snacks!!! Hell, Chris, just keep shifting and you could sit here all day!!! LOL

Janet, I was shocked to see no show for that weekend. I even checked the AHSA book. A weekend off for us! I was not planning on going to Glen Head but i might have to revamp that. How is the preserve? Last time I did that show I swore it off. The rings were horrid and footing was dangerous. That was many years ago so someone update me please.

Lurkn. Nothing for a horse like that. Eq. is your only outlet. Lynn is having the same trouble looking for a 2'6" hunter division for her to come back out in and there is nothing so she is doing the eq. When pre=green 3' was sanctioned by the AHSA the open low hunter was sacrificed for that division. So.....heels down, thumbs up and arch that back. LOL

Mary, I agree. New comittee should be top on the list. Any current members have any idea what Carolyn is planning on doing? At least we could have a jump on it and save time at the meeting!!

Speaking of the web-site, I still would like to see a message board there. More people would get involved. Michael, I e-mailed you some time back, any feedback on that?

M. O'Connor
May. 26, 2001, 08:32 AM
Salt River is 6/17....

((What is up with this board needing me to enter my password 10 times per post???!!!))

May. 26, 2001, 08:44 AM
Sorry Deb, I fell for the if Lynn can do it rationale the day I bought my trailer-LOL!!! (Didn't know Lynn was a Teamster in disguise when I said that two years ago)

I personally would prefer Geriatric Hunter-LOL. We both know the eq scenario will never work. LOL!

Gold Dust
May. 26, 2001, 09:03 AM
Now, what are you going to do when it is time to get the tractor trailer rig!!!!lol
As far as the generic hunter aka. the old low hunter I think if we do weed out some of these pre-eq. classes[there are 4 differnt eq. divisions for Jrs. at one horse show] Maybe there would be room again for the open low hunter! We all know that most of those eq. classes are done as warm ups so do we need so many?

May. 26, 2001, 09:30 AM
Mary: I'm very sorry about your Lab. It's never easy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

May. 26, 2001, 09:39 AM
The only show on LI I know of is the Knoll Dressage show that weekend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mary: I will email you regarding your male Jack.

May. 26, 2001, 04:18 PM
Or is there an unrated show to go to? I've got juveniles, now, you know!!

I had thought about a Geriatric Hunter division at CF, but never thought it would fly. I don't think there is that much interest- Although I could have used a division like that when I dragged Without Wings out of retirement to do the eq. a few years back!!!

I wonder how we're gunna fix the LIHSAA committee.......hmmmm......

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 26, 2001, 04:19 PM
Rain Rain Go Away! Glad I'm not showing this weekend. Wonder if HITS was a wash out also. There are not shows for that june 10th weekend. Thats my B-day woohooo big 2-1. Oh Jane I'm keeping Mr. Sam until November then he's for sale. lol can't part with something so good so soon.

M. O'Connor
May. 27, 2001, 04:48 AM
I thought the schedule was full up and there were no dates to be had...Did a show drop out, or is someone running inactive this year?

Linda Prisco
May. 27, 2001, 06:18 AM
I think the June 10th date was the Smithtown Hunt Horse Show. No show this year /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Gold Dust
May. 27, 2001, 07:45 AM
Enough already. My new barn is about to float away!!!
Yup, that's the reason. No Sm. hunt show[which is a shame for the hunt] Traditions die and that is a shame. Harry needs to spice them up again he he!
Linda, you show at the preserve last year? Still wondering what to do about next weekend if this weather ever clears!
Well, as far as the generic hunter thing, I feel down the road it warrants a discussion. I do not feel it should be an end of year winning thing but L.I. horseshows should bring back some open 2'6" low hunter classes. Hey, got an idea, high, low special hunter non end of year. That AHSA pre-green thing really should be end of year if it ever takes off. But this is long term,down the road discussion. I feel this is not a pressing matter with every thing on the LIHSAA's plate at this time.
hmmmmmmmm Janet, trying to stir up the lurkers!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

May. 27, 2001, 08:18 AM
How about instead of calling it the GERIATRIC Hunters or high/low special, we call it the BEEN THERE DONE THAT Hunters. I'm sure there must be many horses that now longer fit in anywhere and maybe this will clear some people out of the pre-adult pre-childrens division. But what the hell, throw in an end of year cooler, dish and as a special incentive a year of Legend-lol.

Now in defense of LURKERS, some of us never intended to be lurkers-we just can't follow simple directions. As a former lurker let me say this-YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR THE E-MAIL AND CLICK!!!
Either that or call Jane. LOL.

Gold Dust
May. 27, 2001, 08:52 AM
First off, ask my sister in-law how long it took me to get her on this message board because she deleted that e-mail!! That is a must! lol
As far as giving the generic hunter a cooler at the end of the year, sorry lurkn, cann't support that one! They have already been there and done that and don't need another cooler to there exsisting collection. But remember,I'm just a big mouth here and not on the comittee! but I can say, I do think that will never fly.

M. O'Connor
May. 27, 2001, 03:19 PM
we just luck out in the Hamptons because of the holiday? Bright sunshine blue skies all afternoon--after a VERY foggy morning! Took the girls and ponies for a walk on the beach (gave the visitors something to ooooh and ahhh over)---and it's a very small world, we saw Danny Murphree on our way to the beach and on the way back met a very nice gentleman who used to show jumpers and who says he now keeps a horse at Dolan's in Oyster Bay. Didn't get his name...So where did it rain?

And wait--NO SMITHTOWN HUNT???? Why?? What happened??

Gold Dust
May. 27, 2001, 03:38 PM
Just meant no Sm. Hunt horse show. Seems there really was not much organization to have the show and it is a shame. Smithtown Hunt needs a fire put under them I think. I enjoyed watching the hounds demonstration over the years but it was obvious the hounds were not performing up to past abilities. Say what you will about Harry, but, he was a great HuntMaster!

Linda Prisco
May. 27, 2001, 04:29 PM
I would like to go to the preserve next week for the show Gold Dust, are you going??. Haven't been there in a couple of years but don't remember the footing being all that bad. We rode in that hunter ring in the back. I do remember when they used the ring for the adult equit. that kinda sloped down and had that option jump in the gulley. That ring was a little rutty. Didn't go this weekend because of the footing........ really should go to do the Adult Amat. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Can you believe what a beautiful day it turned out to be, YIPEE !!!! No More Rain /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gold Dust
May. 27, 2001, 04:40 PM
I think I might give it a shot. Has been years for me too since I was last there also. Since it looks like the rain is over I think we shall be ready to go. Yup, did turn out to be a great day. Got to clean up all afternoon the mess the monsoon left!

May. 28, 2001, 05:05 AM
Ok I can do this one more day in the ring teaching I didnt think Monday was ever gonna get here and now its here. HIP HIP HORRAY!!!
And Deb who are you kidding that you used to love to watch the hounds perform every year, When you didnt have people showing I never saw you go there just to watch the hounds, and you know that if there is no reason to go to a show you arent getting out of bed early for no one or for no reason. PLEASE!!"thats with two hands" hehehehehehehe, Like I have said before I LOVE YA though, "You liked watching the hounds" lol,
I am sure with the gigantic dogs you have you dont have time to miss the hounds, because you are outside picking up after the two dinosaurs you have that demenstrate there abilities on your lawn. So here you have it hehe
I am laughing my --- off as I am writing this I guess you can say it has been a long long weekend and it has finally got to me, I needed this chuckle, and who better then you Deb to enjoy it with. lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But we are going to miss that show!

May. 28, 2001, 07:24 AM
I have to go to Fla. on family matters and won't be back till Sunday before PHA Meeting Monday. Want to leave you guys with-

At the show this weekend, Jimmy decided to split the Lows at 8 each. There were 4 and 4. This is a LIHSA split division, to be combined if less than 3 in either section. So now we have management, cranky about the PRE-Childrens thing, gunna take it out on another division, by making rules up as they go.

This whole thing is getting uglier and uglier.

Will check in again tonight before I go.....

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 28, 2001, 07:48 AM
OK SO THE WEATHER IN ST.LOUIS MO. WAS NO BETTER THAN WHAT YOU GUYS HAD !!It rained and was cold every stinking day!!!But let me tell you that place was put together beautifully TWO count em two huge indoor rings with huge indoor schooling arenas all undersame roof!!!Huge out door rings perfect if maybe a tad deep out door rings with this coool footing !!!.Anyway i brought beautiful clothes and froze everyday!!!UGH!!! Sorry about your loss Mary !!!

Gold Dust
May. 28, 2001, 09:02 AM
First off, Good morning Chris. My it was attack the sister in-law morning. he he!
Second, my Newfies could track a fox better then those hounds. All they need is that damn Scruffy dog of yours and the hunt would be set!
Third, where were you last year while I was under the tent watching the hounds? I remember that vividly as immediatly following that demonstration I was hurled to the ground at warp speed in the hunter classic!!!
Fourth, I watch them evry year wise a**. I may watch to watch them screw up but have always watched.
Get back in the ring and I'll talk to you later! Love ya too!!!!!

May. 28, 2001, 09:13 AM
I distictly remember Debbie under the tent watching the dogs, but I think she was only waiting for the hunter classic to begin. LOL!!!

I do, however, recall her having a true appreciation of the Indian noises thing on opening day at the Hampton's. She seemed to especially enjoy it while on of her stidents were in the eq ring.

Gold Dust
May. 28, 2001, 10:48 AM
Thanks for being in my corner. Sort of lol I am remembering that now and laughing so hard! Heads up ingate LOL

I had heard the LIHSAA low hunters had a split thing going on. Now I am totally confused. I thought that was a done deal and split at 3 and 3 if it had the entries? Answers to that one please?

As far as the pre=childrens hunter, it is no secret I am an advocate for that. I do understand it is a done deal and I am understanding my fight is for next year. Here is where I need to see figures that Michael has for the past years how many of each there were. June 11th is chock full of issues and I hope you can come Michael. Bad feelings on this should not come into play on other divisions.

waiting for shots fired again /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

May. 28, 2001, 06:28 PM
Heard from Michael about the Pre-Children's thing. He explained that the division was split, horse/pony, at 10 shows last year, all Jimmy's. He said that in doing so it seemed to tip the point scales toward the ponies. He explained further that it was difficult for the horses to catch a pony out in front, as the horse rarely actually competed against the pony. I see his point. The division was split only twice the year before. So the split problem really ballooned last year, and was curbed this year, by LIHSA.

Well, I'm off to Florida. Good luck on all your missions and I'll see you all at the PHA meeting. May the Force be with you, whatever force you may need anyway.

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

May. 28, 2001, 07:42 PM
I hope someone is writing down all these thoughts and ideas because I have heard over and over they have to be submitted in writing. If I have all the issues so far they are. (1) The Long Island High Score Committee needs to revamp it's membership and come up with by-laws, so that rule changes and procedures are FAIR and understandable. (2) Whether to split the Pre-childrens hunters into two sections Horses and Ponies starting the year 2002. (3) Web site needs to be updated more often. (4) Specs. need to be correctly posted and more available somehow. (5) Prize lists must have correct specs.

One more thought, since the pre-childrens were split last year and points were tabulated, I believe a precedent was set and the exhibitor should not be penilized. The LIHSAA has ruled the class WILL NOT BE SPLIT for this year but I think the points that were earned in the shows that did split should count.

May. 28, 2001, 09:42 PM
If we look at last years end of the year awards, only two of the six were horses. I do believe it was more than ten times it was split-seems that I remember splitting at Salt River, Hunters Isle, and Winners Circle. I can honestly say that at the shows I attended the division was split more often than not, but when not split there seemed about 20 in it. At the Hunters Isle series, their cooler was given to the pony, yet had never competed against the horses ever. Another downside to this was that many weeks there seemed to fewer ponies than horses-thus making the ponies points easier to accumulate.

As I have said in the past, I think they should be two separate divisions; just as they are for low hunter and children's hunter.

What I find most appalling is the talk of discarding show results that were split this year. If the class was run as a split, then it should count.

Comparing the pre-childrens to the lows with regard to splitting really isn't comparable. The way I see it, if the lows don't have enough entries to split it doesn't have the same impact because they are split for end of the year. If there are only two amateurs then they still move up in points against the other amateurs. However, what happened this weekend-not splitting 4+4 was wrong.

I have never been to a PHA meeting, always assumed it was for professionals only-I did however witness the meeting at Mid-Island regarding the 20 show issue. As a non-professional outsider let me say that there seems to be two distictively different groups in play and I came away from that meeting thinking who's in it for what. The skeptic in me keeps trying to figure out the angles, and once again the concept of FUN seems to be overlooked. Consistancy would be great, it would be great for the exhibitors to not have to read the prize lists like a jailhouse lawyer and know going in what the rules are and that the results will indeed count.

May. 29, 2001, 05:33 AM
I checked with Micheal McCarthy on how many shows split the pre childrens and the answer was 10. These shows were Hunter's Isle and Winner's Circle. And yes the splitting the class but awarding one cooler/high score award tilts the results. I believe the old LIHSAA specs didn't say you could split the class BUT it didn't specifically say NO split. Reading other division specs it does say the lows/ old pre-green could be split amateur and pro. Unfortunately the new specs that were posted (a little late to be sure) do clearly state the pre-childrens are not to be split. Hopefully this will keep the horses and ponies competing against each other and the results on a equal playing field. Whether they are split in the year 2002 will no doubt be discussed at a PHA and LIHSAA meetings.

As for the points awarded in the class that split this year. As I stated before the entrants participater in good faith that they were following the rules. A precident was set in 1999 and 2000 when the class split and points counted. The points should be counted for that one show.

May. 29, 2001, 07:11 AM
When was it first posted that the pre-children's cannot be split-had the year already started?

Hey Deb, you were there, didn't it seem that more than ten shows split it? If they split winners circle and Hunters Isle, that was more than ten right there.

I certainly hope that the no split rule was posted before the start of the year.

As a non`-pro, let me ask, was it always like this? Did they always propose rule changes like the 20 show rule after the show year started? When was the no split change made-was it thrown open to some sort of vote? I remember years ago not having any idea where everyone stood in the points, this website thing has made for better competition. If the show in question gets posted in errors/ommisions section and points are not given there are going to be very angry people out there.

Gold Dust
May. 29, 2001, 08:07 AM
And might I add like anyone really cares but I shall trudge on.

I have probably said these same things in this thread so I will try not to repeat myslef. Just need to go back to the previous pages and see my views. I do feel it may have been split more then 10 times.

Last point I need to add. Can someone tell me where all of this is coming from? Why are we treating this pre-childrens division like it is the horror division on the roster? What is the big deal if it's split at the end of the year? Who has a grudge with this division please answer my question? Janet and I have aired our views on this but it seems others have taken such a harsh stand on this and I just don't get it. The AHSA started spliting divisions and they started with the childrens hunter so what is the big deal here.One big question, Is one more cooler and ten more minutes at the dinner dance a horrible price to pay for making a lot of exhibitors happy. Remember, we are not creating a new division, we are just follwing the AHSA s lead with Childrens hunter, and splitting our starter division with the same policies.

Why is it we seem to be fighting so much lately? Are we all not in this for the same reasons? This whole thing to me is quite sad that all can not get together and just step back and think a minute. We all just want to go to a pleasant horseshow, learn to ride, have fun and in the end for all the hard work and money spent bring home a piece of fabric and maybe even a coat for the one who carried us around all year. Instead of looking at this as war, can we look at it as a bunch of dedicated people doing the best they can to keep the masses happy.

May. 29, 2001, 11:53 AM
um well a lil' birdie emailed me while i ws aaway with the following news ...She had gone to lihsaa website only to see a notice that there will be no mini finals this year???????
Now i don't even compete in the gD THING but I am SICK AND TIRED OF THINGS BEING CHANGED W/O DISCUSSION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE YEAR!!!!!!!!!What kind of jimmy jack corn association is this and why is thsi being allowed to continue?????

Gold Dust
May. 29, 2001, 02:58 PM
I was present at the PHA meeting where this was discussed months ago to combine the Hugh, Robert and PHA divisions as one division with points accumulated to put a spark in these classes so that put a stop to the finals. Now it will be one award in the eq. for Jrs. and one for Adults with points accumulated from those 3 classes. This was discussed quite a while ago so I have to say that one did not come out of nowhere. The PHA has been throwing that around for a bit to give the mini eq. classes the boost it needed.

May. 29, 2001, 03:47 PM
Whew!! This is going to be some meeting!! Is it going to be a 24 hour job? Sounds like you guys have alot to talk about!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif June 11th, 7:30, New Horizon Diner, right?

Gold Dust
May. 29, 2001, 07:21 PM
And don't forget the PHA meeting on the 4th too. Same place,same time!

M. O'Connor
May. 30, 2001, 08:46 AM
and the ones on the other LI threads and get every issue down on paper. If someone will let me know how many copies of these I should make, I will be able to attend the 11th after all (thanks Jane M!) and will bring these with me...I have sent a copy to several of you of the rude relpy I got from the LIHSAA webmaster in answer to a very simple and straightforward question re the Mini/Adult finals issue Karin raised above--thank you Deb for providing Karin and me with the answer in a rational, and I'd like to point out: <<<courteous>>> manner. This persistent rudeness is yet another "issue" to deal with, and a bothersome one at that as it should be totally unnecessary--don't we have enough to keep us occupied!!!

Gold Dust
May. 30, 2001, 09:20 AM
I can see that e-mail you recieved fueled some fire here!!! I am so glad you can make it to the meeting now. I am sorry you were not able to get the information you were looking for. Why is that you think? Is that not the job of a web-master to answer questions?

O.K.,lets try this. I know this thread has some people of higher authority not too pleased with us. If they would really take the time to read them, they could see the problems and we could all work together as a team. But no. We seem to be the bad guys expressing our views and opinions. Like I have stated earlier, are we all not in this for the same reasons. Don't we want to see happy people at L.I. horse shows.

Wherever the bad feelings are coming from, It must stop. Peoples feelings are getting hurt and that is not what is supposed to be gained by this thread. Everyone on this thread is just trying to either learn or throw another view in the pot. Treat people with respect or as everyones mom has said 'If you don't have nothing nice to say, don't say nothing at all!

oh, and Mary, two copies will probably take up all your computer paper! If you can make them that would be great.

M. O'Connor
May. 30, 2001, 10:42 AM
<<I know this thread has some people of higher authority not too pleased with us. If they would really take the time to read them, they could see the problems and we could all work together as a team. But no. We seem to be the bad guys expressing our views and opinions.>>

I, for one, certainly do not mean to cause offense by participating in these discussions. I guess all the rumbling could be taken the wrong way, but it makes perfect sense to me that if there is a thankless task to be done, that getting people on all sides of the issue to agree to pitch in and tackle it is the most efficient way to get it done and minimize the griping afterwards.

<<Like I have stated earlier, are we all not in this for the same reasons. >>

Actually, we aren't...the horse is the one thing we all have in common, but our reasons for participating vary; trainers are motivated by certain things, clients by others, juniors and their parents by something else, amateurs by yet another, and show management by yet another--because of our interactions at the shows, there is a sizable amount of economic activity riding on what decisions are going to be made over the next few months...I think it would be a shame if some will choose to be too shortsighted to recognize that times, society, and our sport are all undergoing changes, and it would be in the best interests of all of us that the show scene on LI do the same....

Gold Dust
May. 30, 2001, 11:49 AM
You have a way with words and I hope people are really reading them! I just think we should all be trying to work together and get to one common goal. I for one am glad you will be coming on the 11th. We need your perspective on this.

Gold Dust
May. 31, 2001, 12:47 PM
Cann't get here soon enough for me. Start spreading the word people. Let's pack the house again. It worked for the 20 horse show rule. Have your voice heard again!!!

Jun. 1, 2001, 10:24 PM
Since I don't plan on attending the PHA meeting, I thought maybe those who are can bring this up --- I really enjoy GM's "Long Island, Past, Present, and Future" last year, and I wonder if the PHA is planning on more similar events.....Get GM back again even...I'm sure he has plenty of other stories to tell /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Aly" -- Glad you're keeping Sam. He is such a good boy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jun. 2, 2001, 08:34 AM
Hey Jane I thought you were at HITS II this weekend?

Gold Dust
Jun. 2, 2001, 08:46 AM
Please tell me you are planning on going the 11th!!? Go a little early and have some dinner with us. Tell Steve too!

Jun. 2, 2001, 05:44 PM
Stacey -- nah, we ended up not going...I think because no one sent in their entries! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But we will be going to HITS 4 or 5. We're looking into Ox Ridge and Fairfield, if the classes aren't filled already.

Deb -- I wasn't planning on attending the meeting...I like to listen to all the opinions/ideas, but don't have much of my own at this point. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Besides, I live in Nassau county, so after spending a good portion of the day out east at the barnS, the last thing I want to do is drive out there again, and that goes for my day "off". My boyfriend already thinks I spend too much time on horse-related "stuff" anyway. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jun. 3, 2001, 05:45 PM
AW come on Jane, we have dinner before hand with Janet and Debbie you'll have a blast and it's only one or two times a month??

Laura Reed
Jun. 3, 2001, 06:31 PM
Some of the clutter posts are bugging me. Sorry, just a long day wearing the show secretary hat at Glen Head - Muttontown. I'm very tired.

Point is: don't some of you guys (mostly Gals, I think) ever try AOL IM or e-mail? There are too many e-mail or IM type posts for me to wade through. I would really appreciate all the chatty "between the two of us" type posts to be kept off this thread and find their way to your E-mails or IM chats. Can't we focus on the basic premise of this thread? (That is, posts about LI PHA / LIHSAA issues we can all relate to)

Thanks, and again, I'm sorry for the beef, but I just had to vent.

Gold Dust
Jun. 3, 2001, 07:22 PM
Just wanted to let you know you did a great job today. It was a long day and you were a great secretary!
To stay on the horse show theme- I was scepticle about the rings but I thought the hunter ring was great. The main ring footing was fine. Long jumper courses. But- we lost one in the pre-childrens hack! Big class again. Hey, has anyone thought about splitting the pre-childrens horses and ponies. I think I'll bring that up at the June 11th meeting! LOL Beware people, the masses want the split! But, as far as the Preserve- It was fine.
In defense of the chit chat Laura, I think sometimes it just breaks up the constant back and forth stuff and we can step back from it for a minute!
Don't forget the PHA meeting tomorrow night guys!

Jun. 3, 2001, 07:55 PM
But any posts on this thread are ok with me as it keeps this thread close to the top of the List of Threads. And many of us are not capable of IM-ing with others! I know that I can only IM with other Webtv and MSN customers.

And to keep on the topic-

The LIHSAA has never started any rules in the middle of a year. The new rules and specs are printed and put on the tables at the dinner and sent to all the show managers. The problem is that no one pays attention to the printed specs, thinking that there are no changes. By the time they do realize there are changes, I admit, it is the middle of the year. It is NOT the LHSAA's job to personally enlighten each and every person to the new changes. It is the trainer's, the exhibitor's, and the manager's responsibility to read the AHSA Rule Book and know the rules involved in showing at AHSA shows- So why shouldn't they all be responsible for knowing the rules of the LIHSAA as well??

I will now don my flame-retardent suit....

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

Jun. 3, 2001, 09:27 PM
Sorry all the "chit-chat" are annoying Laura or anyone else. I don't post on this thread much for one reason; I'm more of an observer when it comes to the recent issues discussed on this thread. I finally asked a legitimate question, then took the opportunity to make a quick comment from a previous post, which drew a few more questions/remarks. I think it's safe to say that I've been on the internet long enough to know not to let it drag on, but I also don't want to be RUDE when someone ask me a quick question.

I shall refrain from chit-chatting on this thread, or any "serious" thread from now on. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Gold Dust
Jun. 4, 2001, 07:26 AM
Either you are home or in some library in Fla. posting away LOL
You are correct Janet that it is everyones job to know the rules. But....howbout I throw this one at ya!!!!.... Isn't it LIHSAA job to let us know there is a PROPOSED rule change[as the AHSA does in the monthly horse show magazine] so we, the general public have ample time to prepare for any up and coming change?

Like I said, 'Hi Janet, Welcome Home!' /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M. O'Connor
Jun. 4, 2001, 09:39 AM
a long day at a show TIRED---and then the !@#$%^&* AOL takes an hour to let you sign on and then BUMPS you (claiming it is all your fault) and then freezes your screen and sometimes your entire computer----and you have to go through this 4 or 5 times before you get to where you are going....

It can make the most innocent little chit-chat seem like a collosal waste of TIME, though I also agree with whoever said it's good to keep this near the top of the action---

Anyway, one more item to add to the list--timely notification of PROPOSED changes, and an adequate period of time for comment before they are ADOPTED!!

Jun. 4, 2001, 11:19 AM
In years past, the LIHSAA never had to get the masses' approval on any new rules because most were covered in the AHSA rule book. With the onslaught of all the unrated divisions, there is now a need for the Proposed Rule Concept. But even now, there is usually some discussion of a change during PHA meetings. Consequently, if you'd like to be up on potential changes, you should not miss any meetings.

"Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening

M. O'Connor
Jun. 4, 2001, 03:18 PM
<<even now, there is usually some discussion of a change during PHA meetings. Consequently, if you'd like to be up on potential changes, you should not miss any meetings.>>

Doesn't this bring us back to the chicken/egg question--since the LIHSAA is not answerable to the PHA and the PHA isn't specifically charged with determining the agenda for the LIHSAA etc. (Especially considering the expressed preference of the present PHA leadership has made about keeping the two separate) And with no bylaws or formal protocols in place, there doesn't seem to be any orderly or predictable manner in which to conduct a discussion...If there were, we would not have the mountain of work ahead of us that we have all acknowledged exists!

Jun. 4, 2001, 04:48 PM
I've been watching this thread the past few days, and was about to post the same thing Laura did.

Personal conversations should be just that -- personal. You don't need IM. Everyone here has an email address, and you can either exchange them on the board, or list them in your profile. (If you really don't want your address public, email me, and I can pass your address on to someone else for you.)

I don't mind the fact that this thread has gotten so long, as long as it stays on topic. But to post chatter just to keep the topic at the top of the list is not okay with me. And unfortunately, what I say goes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Keep it on topic, please, and keep the other conversation to email. Thanks!

M. O'Connor
Jun. 5, 2001, 06:28 AM
on last night's meeting...for those of us who were not there...

Gold Dust
Jun. 5, 2001, 07:59 AM
Starting a new thread guys so go there with new update info.