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Greenbean
Oct. 8, 2002, 11:44 AM
Does anyone on this board have an Aberjack baby by any chance? Since breeding season is over I have been fortunate enough to ride him, and he is truly the most incredible horse I've ever sat on. I was talking with Denny and he suggested asking if anyone who posts here has an Aberjack baby and would be willing to post some pictures. Let me know if you know of any of his babies out there. Thanks a lot!

Carrie

Greenbean
Oct. 8, 2002, 11:44 AM
Does anyone on this board have an Aberjack baby by any chance? Since breeding season is over I have been fortunate enough to ride him, and he is truly the most incredible horse I've ever sat on. I was talking with Denny and he suggested asking if anyone who posts here has an Aberjack baby and would be willing to post some pictures. Let me know if you know of any of his babies out there. Thanks a lot!

Carrie

tle
Oct. 8, 2002, 11:46 AM
No... but if I get serious about breeding Char, he is one at the top of my list. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Of course I know SO little about breeding that I'd probably end up just sending a tape and still photos to Denny and letting him help me decide who would make a good cross (but I'd hope it was Aberjack or Reputed Testimony!).

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 8, 2002, 12:54 PM
If you ever get serious, you should consider Catherston Dazzler. He is a proven performer who went advanced in eventing & GP in dressage PLUS he is a proven sire of at least one Olympic horse (Hyde Park Corner).

Aberjack is beautiful but he can't touch Catherston Dazzler's record.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

tle
Oct. 8, 2002, 01:20 PM
Thanks, but as I said... I don't know a whole lot about breeding and what needs to be looked for in a stallion to compliment my mare.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Daydream Believer
Oct. 8, 2002, 01:20 PM
I went to see Denny's stallions this Spring when I was considering rebreeding my Conn/TB mare. By far, Aberjack was the most impressive...at least while he was moving. What an incredible mover. WB's have nothing on him and he can really jump too I guess. He was pretty naughty and was playfully biting at one of my friends but it was not mean natured. The funny thing is until he moved, I thought he was pretty plain and ordinary looking. He's my top pick but his stud fee is quite a bit more than the others.

Wintry Oak was a pretty nice mover too although more thoroughbredlike than Aberjack. He as really quiet too which I liked. He's not too big but has a pedigree full of top eventers and jumpers. Very classic and nice horse. You can't beat that he did a 100 mile endurance ride too. Very tough.

Loyal Pal was so elegant and lovely with a regal bearing about him. We couldn't watch him move since he has a fused fetlock area from a racing injury. Reputed Testamony was also a lovely creature. He doesn't move as well due to arthritis but you can see how he must have been once before. I didn't get to see Prussian Blue unfortunately.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Toadie's mom
Oct. 8, 2002, 01:38 PM
I've been to see Denny's stallions and agree with all observations here. Aberjack is not put together very well. Looked like about 3 different horses, but they say he's very good tempered (although when I saw him he hadn't started breeding yet, so that may have changed!) and a great jumper. I saw him move and was impressed, but I've been told he takes a lot of leg and I prefer a more forward type horse. I didn't think much of Prussian Blue. I really liked Wintry Oak and Mokhieba best. Decided against Mokhieba because there are a lot of opinions about the temperament he throws, and Wintry Oak just wasn't a good cross for this particular mare.
I know someone that has an Aberjack weanling, and if I can get ahold of some pictures I'll post them. It's a filly out of a quarter horse mare and I have no idea what she looks like, except that the mare was also bay and the baby is chestnut. That was a surprize!

Greenbean
Oct. 8, 2002, 02:18 PM
"Aberjack is not put together very well. Looked like about 3 different horses, but they say he's very good tempered (although when I saw him he hadn't started breeding yet, so that may have changed!) and a great jumper. I saw him move and was impressed, but I've been told he takes a lot of leg and I prefer a more forward type horse. I didn't think much of Prussian Blue. I really liked Wintry Oak and Mokhieba best."


It's interesting to hear everyone's different points of view on Jacko and Blue and all. I didn't know this before, but Mark Todd looked at hundreds of horses before deciding on Aberjack - he said that he couldn't believe he found all he wanted in one horse that was so well put together. Personally jacko is my favorite! Riding him and Blue really helped my dressage work because I was able to feel exceptionally talented horses underneath me. I would love to see the pics of the baby if you have it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif thanks!!

Carrie

[This message was edited by Greenbean on Oct. 08, 2002 at 04:26 PM.]

[This message was edited by Greenbean on Oct. 08, 2002 at 04:28 PM.]

NeverTime
Oct. 8, 2002, 02:18 PM
I don't have a mare, so this is totally irrelevant, but having spent seven months with Denny as a working student, I would LOVE to own a replica of Rep. Of the stallions there, he was my favorite both in terms of looks and temperament--and from the one foal I saw live, plus pictures of several others, I know he really stamps his get with lots of chrome and those big beautiful eyes (not that eyes or chrome make an event horse, but still...)

JER
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:08 PM
Count me in as another non-fan of Aberjack. Agree that he looks like he's made from spare parts, don't like the neck/shoulder that the conformation picture seems to obscure, don't like the long pasterns. He does, however, come from a very successful line of event horses. I just don't get what Mark Todd thinks is so great about him; I much prefer Mark Todd's other stallion, Mayhill, who stands in the UK.

Out of Denny's stallions, I like Wintry Oak but he is live cover only, which means his semen does not freeze, chill or ship well. He's also quite small, which I like very much, but this is not everyone's taste, and a 16+hh horse is an easier sale than something under 16 hh.

Evalee mentioned Catherston Dazzler, so I'm taking the opportunity to blow my own horn as the owner/breeder of Dazzler's 1st US-born foal. Dazzler is a spectacular stallion -- as a young horse, he won all the potential/future/young horse competitions in England in dressage, showjumping and eventing. He won the very competitive showjumping competition as a 5 year-old and again as a 6 year-old. His riders, Malcolm Pyrah and John Whitaker (!), thought he had international SJ talent and tons of scope and elasticity. He racked up a number of points in eventing (after winning the young eventer title) and had a long career as an international dressage horse, competing in GP through age 17.

Dazzler is an own brother (same dam) as the stallion Summersong, who competed with Marie-Christine Duroy in the 1996 Olympics. He's a half brother (same sire) to Dutch Gold, Jennie Loriston-Clarke's Olympic dressage horse and a successful eventing sire in his own right. 8 or 9 of Dazzler's foals have made it to the **** level in eventing.

And with this track record, Dazzler's stud fee is less than half that of Loyal Pal's or Aberjack's, and it's even less than Reputed Testamony's.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:23 PM
I didn't know there was a half brother out there. Summersong is the most incredible event horse I have EVER seen! Please please please post some pics of your foal.

I have a girlfriend who has a weanling filly out of Aberjack by a mare that has produced a four star horse. I think the jury is still out.

Does Dazzler have a website?

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:31 PM
I thought Ali & I would have a "Darkie" baby on the way by now, the stud fee & semen shipping have been paid since May . . . BUT the mare had colic surgery. OUCH. Maybe next spring.

I am really high on Dazzler ("Darkie") because he is proven, as you pointed out so well. There are tons of lovely stallions, some of them with performance records & some not . . . but there aren't very many stallions with outstanding performance records AND a proven record as a sire!

As for matching mare to stallion . . . it's one theory, as is . . . breed "the best to the best". I personally don't think there is much to trying to find a stallion that will offset/compensate/overcome your mare's faults. I like "the best to the best". (I interpret that to mean, "the best mare we can afford" or "the best that we have", to the "stallion we believe is best", as, obviously, there is only one "best" mare & one "best" stallion in the world & I don't think we could all agree on who they are.)

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

JER
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:34 PM
Gry2Yng, here's my Dazzler filly at 4 months (she's now 7 months old but I don't have the pics here). Her mom is my OTTB mare.

BTW, Summersong is by the English Trakehner stallion Fleetwater Opposition, who evented at advanced and did GP dressage. Fleetwater Opposition is still doing stud duties in his mid-20s and has produced many excellent horses is all disciplines. Unfortunately, Summersong's semen does not freeze or cool, although he does have babies on the ground in France.

(I did a LOT of research before I bred my mare!)

Gry2Yng
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:48 PM
Could that baby BE any cuter. Her neck comes out of her shoulder like a GP dressage superstar!

Greenbean
Oct. 8, 2002, 04:06 PM
I suppose different people find different qualities in horses attractive or unattractive...anyway, if there are any jacko baby pics out there please post! thanks so much!!

SuperSpike
Oct. 8, 2002, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NeverTime:
I don't have a mare, so this is totally irrelevant, but having spent seven months with Denny as a working student, I would LOVE to own a replica of Rep. Of the stallions there, he was my favorite both in terms of looks and temperament--and from the one foal I saw live, plus pictures of several others, I know he really stamps his get with lots of chrome and those big beautiful eyes (not that eyes or chrome make an event horse, but still...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree! I too was a working student, and Rep was my favorite! I liked Wintry, too. Pal was a sweetheart, and Blue was always in trouble. I never saw Aberjack in person, but if Mark Todd thinks so much of him, I'll go along with that!

*I am as bad as the worst, but, thank God, I am as good as the best.

deltawave
Oct. 8, 2002, 04:26 PM
I think some of Denny's stallions are gorgeous, in particular Reputed Testamony. I also admire Loyal Pal's race record, but don't think he has an ideal hind end for a jumper. That said, if Rox Dene's owners chose him, who am I to say ANYTHING! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The questions I've always had about these stallions is, what are their progeny DOING? Loyal Pal has been at stud for how long (I don't know, not a rhetorical question!) and what are his offspring doing? Aberjack is advertised as an Advanced horse...what is his competition record? (ANOTHER non-rhetorical question--I really would like to know)

Of course, I bred my mare to a stallion that, after his stallion testing, was put to stud full time, so I'm not criticizing anyone's choice of these stallions AT ALL. Just raising the point that a humongous advertising program, while it raises visibility, is not the same as a string of proven babies on the ground.

I think the Catherston Dazzle filly has one gorgeous topline! Congratulations...wish she could spare my filly an inch or two of that beautiful neck! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
www.deltawave.homestead.com (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com)
www.seeliecourt.homestead.com (http://www.seeliecourt.homestead.com)

JER
Oct. 8, 2002, 05:33 PM
deltawave, I agree with you on the 'Denny mystique.' The website shows a few babies for a few of the stallions, none for Aberjack, none for Reputed Testamony. However, they go on at length about all the great mares that are in LP's recent book. While this is a useful marketing tool from the ego-stroking point of view -- "Rox Dene's owners chose Loyal Pal and you can too!" -- it is not terribly relevant information from an actual breeding perspective. Ok, so he's been bred to 300+ mares -- that's a lot of babies out there and that's a lot of babies we aren't hearing about. You can surmise there must be some level of satisfaction because his stud fee stays high and his book stays full, but I'd still like to know what the little LPs are up to.

IIRC, Denny's now-deceased stallion Epic Win DID have several notable event horses among his get, and Mokhieba has had some event/SJ successes as well. But Mokhieba, who I think is gorgeous, tends to produce very hot horses. Hot, I was told, to the point where it's a temperament problem.

I advise anyone with plans to breed their own eventer to look in England. The West Kington Stallion Bank (just to mention one group) has a number of top sport horse sires available for international shipping. Stud fees are lower in general, stallion performance and progeny records are much stronger.

This leads me to mention a stallion marketing campaign that I find particularly refreshing -- the one for Brandenberg's Windstar. While I do not care for this type of horse for myself, I was very impressed with how the video and literature clearly communicated that this stallion's strength was in producing steady-eddie all-rounders for the amateur rider. This is a very good option for mare owners to have.

poltroon
Oct. 8, 2002, 05:39 PM
Denny is one of the only breeders advertising TB stallions, and one of the only breeders whose advertising shows he is clearly interested in event horses.

It is great to hear about some of these other stallions out there. Catherston Dazzler sounds great ... and I've never come across him before. We mare owners won't know about them if they're not advertised or listed somewhere...

Tootsie
Oct. 8, 2002, 05:44 PM
I dont know about Aberjack, but I have sat on a young Loyal Pal youngster and he is something else. Beautiful mover, beautiful jumper, and one of the best temperments I have ever worked with. He is also very intelligent and learns very quickly.

"Some dance to remember,
some dance to forget..."

Daydream Believer
Oct. 8, 2002, 06:10 PM
Very interesting conversation we're having especially since I'm very serious about breeding my mare this upcoming spring. I'm not familiar with Dazzler and hope someone knows a link to him. He's an Irish Draught? Color? I do not like grays...just my personal foible but having had to clean them up as a groom years ago, I developed a real aversion. Yeah, I know 50% with a brown mare like mine but those are betting odds.

Anyway, would a discussion about eventing stallions be complete without discussing Erin Go Bragh? I'm particularly interested in him since my mare is half Connemara, her foal could be registered with the Part Connemara registry as well not to mention his impressive eventing record. He also is a proven event sire with several get competing at the top levels of eventing...Tilly Go Bragh and Gaelic Holiday come to mind off hand. I'd love to see any pics of his babies if anyone has any or info on temperments, etc...

The Denny Mystique...I have to give him a lot of credit for standing sound, athletic TB stallions in a time when many have moved to the WB. It's nice to see such a lovely lineup of stallions with performance records and racing backgrounds and proven toughness. Soundness is a trait that can't be ignored by breeders and so many mares that get bred are because they are unsound. I hope someone can post some pics of Aberjacks or Wintry's babies. I'm very curious to see how they turned out.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

bonfire
Oct. 8, 2002, 06:31 PM
Mark Todd is no dummy about what constitutes a top horse.He was selected "FEI Horseman of the Century." He hoped that Aberjack would be his last Olympic horse, but Aberjack had a mild colic in the lay-off period after running in his 1st 5 advanced events, and when he got i.v.fluids, there must have been a dirty needle, because he got a massive infection that compromised his immune system.
David and Karen O`Connor are no dummies either, and they are the ones who urged Mark to stand the horse in the states.
As for the race horses,I looked up the records of Prussian Blue, Loyal Pal, and Reputed Testamony.
Collectively they raced 199 times,won 40 races, placed 2nd 39 times, placed 3rd 29 times, won 10 stakes races, placed in 25 others, and won 1,233,000 dollars. Those are facts that can be looked up and verified.
Many sport horse breeders have very little insight into what it takes to be a successful stakes winning race horse, and don`t have much of an idea how much sheer athleticism is involved, and how that is transposed into other pursuits.
As the oldest offspring of Loyal Pal are about 6 or 7, and those of the others younger, it remains to be seen how they will do. Ed Minchin`s Loyal Pal 3 yr. old was a top finisher in this year`s IHF.
Time will tell, I suppose.

JER
Oct. 8, 2002, 06:40 PM
Here's a link to Catherston Dazzler's page (http://www.catherstonstud.net/Stud%20Book%20-%20Dazzler.htm). If you click on 'Stud Book' you can see their entire stallion roster. BTW, Dazzler is brown without any white and has produced very few greys, no chesnuts, and mostly bays and browns. This would make him an EE (double dominant for brown, with no greying gene); I don't know enough about genetics to say what he has as far as the 'A' (bay) gene is concerned.

I'm a big fan of Hideaway's Erin Go Bragh. I did get all the info on him but the problem for me was with my mare -- she's very compact and catty, so much so that it's tough to stay with her, and I was afraid of getting a scaled-down version of her, which would be lovely to look at and undoubtedly athletic, but a very difficult ride. But Erin Go Bragh is an excellent stallion and I've seen several of his offspring (more than one was grey!) and would happily take any one of them.

Another excellent US-based event sire was the late 'Hanoverian' (a 7/8ths TB, actually) stallion Lanthan. Passed on his athleticism and his great mind.

Hilltop's Riverman, a Holsteiner, also struck me as a stallion who produces good potential eventers.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 9, 2002, 05:36 AM
Thanks for that link. He is a lovely boy! What exactly is the non TB part of him? Just curious...it doesn't matter that much to me. He is a lovely brown too like my mare so gray would not be a possibility with that cross.

My mare is small (14:3) and compact too so that is one reason to select a bigger stallion as well. She had a foal this spring (an accidental breeding to an unknown stallion probably at a sale) and the filly is almost 13:3 at 7 1/2 months and we expect her to mature to 15:3-16:0 hands by the string tests so I know she can produce a large foal. I do really like Go Bragh though. Maybe I can breed for one baby to him and another to a larger stallion? Just a thought.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

sporthorselover
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:37 AM
I have a good friend who has an Erin Go Bragh baby. He is drop dead gorgeous, dam was a nice TB...he is 16.1 I think, Black, but quite a handful. Just turning 4 soon, so has not begun his competition life. She tells me Go Bragh babies have a reputation for being hot-headed.

She said the Connemara stallion she really wanted to breed to was Sparrow something...they are supposed to be really nice. I forget why they didn't breed to him, but they traveled around and looked at alot of his babies, and were very impressed.

I am lucky enough to own a Connemara/TB sired by Denny Emerson's Forfeit (now gelded). The dam ( Connemara) is from the MacDaire line -- the closest standing Connemara stallion in that line I believe is Maplehurst Michael MacDaire. The great grandfather Connemara was a GP Dressage horse.

Anyway, our Conn/TB is a dream...16 hands, very easy going, quiet, beautiful mover, and can jump the moon. Fast learner, great work ethic. He's 7, doing well at Novice and getting ready to move up to Training with my 14 year old daughter.

The Conn/TB cross has been great for us. Wish I could clone him!

jodi

Hilary
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:39 AM
Wow is all I can say about your CD baby!

he is mighty impressive. I didn't know about him when I bred my mare, but I was one who was completely taken by Brandenburg's Windstar. Even though he was young, and hadn't done much competing (still hasn't I don't think) he's got an impressive lot of Advanced 3-day relatives, and show jumpers. I was looking for temperament (and got it) and a bit of substance (got that too- her butt is HUGE).

WHen I considered breeding my other mare (a Morgan TB with funky conformation, but more heart and ability than any other horse I know) my top choice was Test Pilot, Kim & Marty Morani's stallion. He's from Advanced home bred bloodlines, (mostly TB) and is put together really well. he's got his own solid competition record, and successful babies on the ground. (he's chestnut, too, so no grays!) I didn't breed Ali b/c I don't need more horses and she's getting too old to carry a foal safely.

I didn't consider Denny's horses b/c I didn't want full TB.

JER
Oct. 9, 2002, 08:54 AM
Catherston Dazzler is 5/8ths TB, 1/8 Gelderlander (Dutch carriage horse), 1/8 Gronigen (Dutch WB, stud book combined with Gelderlander book to create KWPN) and 1/8 RID (from his dam Welton Gameful, an advanced eventer).

This makes my filly 13/16ths TB, although you'd never guess it when you see her turned out with the racing-bred TBs. She's much bigger than everyone else. She does, however, have a fantastic ground-covering gallop.

Choosing Dazzler was relatively simple. He looks like a masculine version of my mare, built a little more on the vertical axis than her, a little less refined through the shoulder and neck and quite a bit stouter all around. The worst combination of these two horses' conformation would still be a nice horse.

I did visit Catherston and saw Dazzler, or 'Darkie', in person. He's a real powerhouse of a horse, he does piaffe/passage/tempi changes with little effort, even after a winter out in the field. While there, I saw a number of his offspring (several were in for training), including one out of a pony mare and another out of 'an unbelievably hideous mare' -- this mare belonged to a friend of theirs and she begged them to let her breed to Dazzler. The result was a decent horse. I also saw his full sister, who is one of their top broodmares, and his half-brother Dutch Gold.

Catherston has spent over 50 years developing a type of horse that is meant to be a good all-around sport horse. The stallions do at least both SJ and dressage, if not eventing as well. The stallions hack out regularly, are extremely well mannered and work in the ring with mares/geldings/whatever, they just have to cope. This is a true breeding PROGRAM, which is not so easy to find in this country.

deltawave
Oct. 9, 2002, 10:04 AM
I have a book that features the Catherston horses, and he's just beautiful.

BTW, a non-gray horse can never, EVER produce a gray unless they are BRED to a gray. So breeding a non-gray to CD is safe--no grays. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What was CD's stud fee, BTW? Frozen semen, I presume?

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
www.deltawave.homestead.com (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com)
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Heather
Oct. 9, 2002, 10:17 AM
I refrained from replying to this thread, becasue (disclaimer) my hubsand and I consider Denny and May to be good friends, so I'll admit to some bias on the topic.

This is hardly the first time it's come up, and I'm constantly surprised by the thinly veiled jabs at Denny and May that appear. These two people have done nothing but give to the sport of eventing for the last 40 years, and there was a time when they were the ONLY ones speaking about the importance of breeding. They are one of the very, very few left who still see the value in our wonderful American TB, and who are crying alone in the wilderness about their continued viability as a sporthorse. If you don't care for their stallions, fine, then don't breed to them. But why bash them personally, make cracks about a "mystique", or act as though they are "putting something over" on the consumer because they run (gasp) ads? It's especially upsetting, because if you actually knew Denny and May at all, you would know they are the last people to believe in their own hype and mystique--two more down to earth, focused, and hard working horseman you have never met.

OK, that being said, let's now eliminate Denny and May specifically from the topic at hand, and let me pose this question. Several of you who are CD fans (and FWIW, I think he's a gorgoues stallion with a good record), have mentioned choosing to go through the whole shipped semen riggamarole because of him being "part of true breeding program which is not avaialble in this country."

OK, so let's say I don't argue with you. My question is, if everyone keep trapsing off to import horses and semen from overseas, (nothing wrong with it, BTW, I'd do it myself if I could afford it), how is it we will magically create these wonderful programs here, if NO ONE SUPPORTS THEM. Yes, our programs are embryonic by European standars, but if we turn our backs on them, they will never grow and improve--why bother, when all the cutomers keep going overseas anyway?

I'm not trying to do US horses good, foreign bad thing here, because I really don't feel that way--I think there are good nad bad horses everywhere. But, I see so many people wringing their hands and wondering why we can't have a system them works, when the answer seems as obvious as hell to me--buy domestic--semen, horses, whatever. If you want our domestic industry to grow, then you have to support it with your $$. If you don't care, that's fine, but don't complain about how our system is bad, then shrug your shoulders and go overseas, because that's like complaining about how Bush sucks when you didn't vote in the election.

FWIW, my favorite Denny stallion as a whole package is Rep, though I'd breed a hot mare to Pal, and a quiet one to Blue (who is really, really, beautiful, but every inch a TB). I like Aberjack, but he's been throwing pretty true to size and I persoanlly need something a little bigger, but he has 10 gaits and a 12 jump. The pictures don't do him justice--you need to see him playing through a difficult combination or prancing through his mediums to get a real taste for what an athlete the horse is. Wintry is tough guy, and a good athlete, but again, for me persoanlly, size is an issue. Mohkheiba has gone back to the gentleman who used to stand him.

GotSpots
Oct. 9, 2002, 10:26 AM
Yay Heather! Denny had given much to the sport, and is doing a substantial amount to increase the perception of the American TB as a viable and sustainable sport-horse sire. While I don't disagree that Dazzler is a stunning stallion, I don't think you can question the talent or capabilities of the THF studs. These are tough, athletic, gorgeous horses. For an event horse, I find a compelling attribute to be the horse's sire's soundness. That these horses raced at a serious level and were able to continue racing for some time says to me that they had the bone/tendon/design to withstand the pounding on the track, and that if they pass that on, their offspring may be more likely to stay sound. Now I know that fluke accidents can happen on the racetrack or in the pasture, but I'm impressed by a record which demonstrates either a resistance to or an ability to withstand the dings and wear that racing causes.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Oct. 9, 2002, 11:11 AM
And glad to hear from everyone who likes Rep, as I'm expecting a Rep baby this spring! Have a Wintry 18 month old filly whose photo I've wanted to put up here. but scanner issues have prevented that.

As to the lack of photos on the website, my only guess is that Denny and May might put more of their energies into running the farm and selecting good sound stallions than they do to website maintenance. I know I've sent a photo of Oakus Pocus which hasn't appeared under Wintry's get section, and I know I've seen some nice Pal and Rep babies at clinics and such - the nice offspring are certainly out there!

When we decided to breed my mare, a TB was the obvious choice as she's a Welsh/TB, and as much fun as I have on the ponies, a little more height does make it easier to get through combinations and cover ground. Didn't want to risk a mutt by adding another breed to the mix.

Originally was going to breed to Rep first, but was so impressed by Wintry's temperament, and thought he might throw an easier "first foal all my own." Hazel (Oakus Pocus) has certainly been fun so far - bold and sensible, and though she has a few opinions (as does her mother), she's quite willing to alter them when a better way is explained to her.

Can't wait for the Rep foal to come! Especially as he has a reputation for throwing uphill foals, and my mare is not the most uphill in the world.

None of this, of course, has a thing to do with Aberjack... But I think Denny and May have a fair eye for a horse, and plenty of knowledge of bloodlines, and I can't wait for someone to post some pictures in answer to the question ! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Though didn't Aberjack just start standing at Tamarack last season, so maybe there aren't that many on the ground???

rebecca
Oct. 9, 2002, 11:42 AM
Yes, there actually are some of us left in this warmblood loving country, and if people who dislike the Thoroughbred want to do so, fine for them. They don`t have to be so petty that they smear a good horse publically in print, though. And I would love to hear how their qualifications as horsemen stack up against Mark Todd and the O`Connors?
How many gold medals do they have?
Becca

JER
Oct. 9, 2002, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Several of you who are CD fans (and FWIW, I think he's a gorgoues stallion with a good record), have mentioned choosing to go through the whole shipped semen riggamarole because of him being "part of true breeding program which is not avaialble in this country."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heather, your quote is a misquote. That is NOT what I said. I wrote: "[Catherston]...is a true breeding PROGRAM, which is not so easy to find in this country." Perhaps you can point me in the direction of a 50-odd year sport horse breeding program in the US, but I don't know of any. I do know of more recently developed programs, like Tamarack's or Bruce Davidson's (can't recall the name) or Iron Spring or Hilltop. I repeat: true sport horse breeding programs are few and far between in the US. There aren't that many outstanding ones in the UK either.

I'm not bashing your friends Denny and May. I think they've done great things with promoting eventing and TB stallions but ultimately I found (1) their stallions are not the best matches for my mare, (2) the stud fees were very high, and (3) I couldn't seem to get more info on the stallions' offspring (emails went unanswered or pointed me back to the website). And I'll repeat that I found it odd that they promoted some of their stallions by the quality of the mares bred to them and not by the quality of their offspring.

As for the "whole shipped semen riggamarole", I have this much to say: I live in California. I'm not toting my mare to VT or NC for live cover at Denny's, and in fact, I'm not doing live cover at all. So I can't very well avoid shipping semen in some form, can I? Shipping is shipping, FedEx is FedEx, it's the same process whether from Vermont or England.

I don't think I should feel guilty for breeding my mare to a foreign horse. (My mare is an American TB, but I bought her in Canada. Big deal.) BTW, Aberjack is also a foreign horse, brought here to attract US-based breeders with his foreign credentials.

Breeding is about suitability not nationality. US breeders should be taking advantage of AI and modern shipping technology to breed great sport horses at home.

JER
Oct. 9, 2002, 11:52 AM
Really, I do.

My mare is an OTTB, my outstanding new 7 year-old is an OTTB and I'm trying to find a suitable TB stallion for my next breeding.

But full TBs are not for everyone and especially not for every amateur. I started off eventing with TBxdrafts (3/4 and 7/8) and see the value in the extra real estate. My kid started off on the 7/8ths and now she's riding the 7 year-old OTTB.

rebecca
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:00 PM
I repeat my question JER, what are your qualifications to knock Aberjack in print? Have you ridden him, like both Mark and Karen O`Connor have, and who rave about him? Have you seen him jump, or be ridden? Have you seen any of his first crop foals in the U.S. this year?Have you seen him do ANYTHING? Have you ever even seen HIM?
Before you can knock the credibility of a horse, or, by association,of the people who own and support him, perhaps it would be a good idea to have valid qualifications to do so. I repeat, how many gold medals do YOU have?
Becca

MKM
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:04 PM
what did I miss? where did JER "knock" Aberjack other than saying that he's not the best for her own mares? (which i don't think is a "knock")

MKM
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:05 PM
ok, now i read the first page. i had missed that.
well, to each his own. i like Aberjack.

poltroon
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:27 PM
Gold medals for riding do not necessarily translate to an infallible judgement; the lack of same does not mean the person doesn't have a good eye. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I like Aberjack and have lusted after Reputed Testamony since his galloping photo first appeared in the Omnibus. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I am very pleased that Tamarack has been promoting TB stallions (and stallions under 17 hands!) and I hope more breeders will follow their lead and do the same. It will only improve American breeding.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jair
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
I refrained from replying to this thread, becasue (disclaimer) my hubsand and I consider Denny and May to be good friends, so I'll admit to some bias on the topic.

This is hardly the first time it's come up, and I'm constantly surprised by the thinly veiled jabs at Denny and May that appear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and unfortunately Heather, your bias came through overly loud and clear in your post. Too much so I'm afraid. I always enjoy your posts very much, but I can't help feeling that you have been blinded by your friendship on this one.

I have read this thread with great interest as I am a sporthorse breeding nut, and my overall opinion is that it has been a super thread and in no way coloured with snide, attacking or veiled insults. There are always negative points to every stallion, and the ones that were written here about the Emerson studs were in my opinion clinical rather then emotional. What is wrong with an observer saying what they didn't like about a stud's conformation/temperment vs. their mares? That is part of making a breeding decision.

and nothing drives me more nuts than someone claiming that their stallion or any stallion is PERFECT and the RIGHT choice for EVERY mare, because that is ludicrous.

Which brings me to the other point that has been brought up about the "evils" of using an European stallion vs. an American bred one. I think it is far more important to find the good match for your mare rather then worry about whether you are supporting the area where you live - sure the Emerson studs are lovely, but if they are not a good match for your mare, there is no point in breeding to them. Just because they're not right for one mare doesn't mean they are suddenly being trashed as bad stallions /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> originally posted by Rebecca: Yes, there actually are some of us left in this warmblood loving country, and if people who dislike the Thoroughbred want to do so, fine for them. They don`t have to be so petty that they smear a good horse publically in print, though. And I would love to hear how their qualifications as horsemen stack up against Mark Todd and the O`Connors?
How many gold medals do they have?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rebecca, get a grip. Why does this always come down to tb vs. warmblood? Nobody until YOU even brought that up! And again, there was nothing posted here that could ever be called a smear on the horses.

Frankly it annoys me that posters like JER et al are being attacked for making a sound breeding decision for their mare just because they didn't use a local TB stud. That is so stupid /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Heather
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:47 PM
And I think you've missed my point JER. I don't want you to feel guilty about breeding your mare to anybody--you should abcsolutely love everything about the baby--because you've brought it into the world and it's yourreponsibility now, so I hope that baby is absolutely everything you dreamed of.

What I wanted you (and others, the collective you, really) was to examine WHY you felt you had to go overseas. I myself agreed with you,and called our current breeding programs "embryonic," but my point is they will remain embryonic if we don't support them. And I have no problem with bringing in foreign bloodlines--we US sportbreeders have screwed it up a bit, and while the best European bloodlines do feature American TB names, they have utilised them to a far better degree than we have. Breed the best at home you say, here, here, I agree, I say.

The key now is though, is that along with brining inthe bloodlines, is to utilise and bind them up with our own programs, so that in time, we won't have to go overseas, because they'll be right here. Aberjack isn't an American TB, or even a full TB, but when he is crossed with good American TB mares, his offspring will strnegthen our American sport programs. Again, I have NO problem with foreign horses, non-Tb horses, etc.--I have ridden and loved them all over the years, BUT as long as we re willing to spend our money overseas in perpetuity, rather than psening some of it there now with the future plan of NOT spending more of it over there in the future, well, there will always be something to complain about.

I still think you seem to be harboring a lot of anger and negativity against the tamarack organization, which I find strage, but it may just be the "internet translation" and I'll chalk it up to that.

Greenbean
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:53 PM
when I posted this topic I didn't mean to start arguments between people...It was not originally a controversial topic. I wanted to say how much I love Aberjack...and Blue, and how I feel priviledged to ride them. I just wanted to see a few pictures! Please, keep posting, but let's calm it down a notch - this is supposed to be a fun topic!

Heather
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:57 PM
Jair--where did I say that I thought they were perfect for every mare? I said clearly, If you don't like them, don't breed to them, and in fact said I wouldn't breed to Wintry or Aberjack myself because of size issues for me? I can see you saying I shouldn't respond because I know the players personally, but I no where said it's because I think Tamarck is the only place in the world to find a good stallion. Ialso mentioned that I though CD was a lovely animal. You are 100% correct, no horse is perfect, or perfect for every mare, a cure for all evils, etc.

I also, on this and other threads, have worked very hard to not make this a TB vs warmblood, import vs. domestic issue. I ONLY want people to examine what part all the importation MIGHT be playing in the lack of a strong industry here. I didn't call them bad people, or bad breeders, or bad anything.

As far as the jabs, yes, I'm sorry, I see them, and it has to do with several other threads on this exact topic and a particular poster, not JER, who seems to be offended that Tamarack runs ads, and can get large stud fees for their horses. I don't care if they criticize the stallions--to each his own--but to act as though because THEY personally don't care for them that tamarack is somehow fooling everyone is silly. I wasn't a particular fan of the stallion Nick Of Diamonds--not my type--but I certianly don't think that means everyone should listen to me and not like him either. Good grief, I'm not 12. I'm just suggesting the the issues vs individuals line got crossed here a bit (especially since the original posert had RIDDEN Aberjack--not much better personal experience upon which to create an opinion than that).

I too have generally found your posts enjoyable, but I really feel like you came out swinging at me here with no justification. I don't think I was mean, nasty, or named named. But whatever, bash away.

Jair
Oct. 9, 2002, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
Jair--where did I say that I thought they were perfect for every mare? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my fault - it was a generic comment of mine and not aimed at you directly. I should have said that

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As far as the jabs, yes, I'm sorry, I see them, and it has to do with several other threads on this exact topic and a particular poster, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other threads, maybe. But I'm responding to THIS one. How am I supposed to know that you have read other threads that you didn't like? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I too have generally found your posts enjoyable, but I really feel like you came out swinging at me here with no justification. I don't think I was mean, nasty, or named named. But whatever, bash away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bashing? BASHING???? Good grief Heather. That is ridiculous. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Ask Robby, I don't bash people! I just pointed out that you seemed overly biased on this topic and IMO unable to see some of the comments from a middle standpoint. I know none of these horses personally, and as a fair-minded person, I really don't see what all the fuss was about.

tle
Oct. 9, 2002, 01:23 PM
FWIW, I was picking up on some anti-tamarack thoughts here as well.

Perhaps what Heather is objecting to isn't that people are finding their appropriate stallions overseas, but that people aren't even considering looking here. You'll see that in breeding as well as buying made horses... as well as a TON of other things here in this country (cars, etc.)... if its from elsewhere, it must be better. It's not that they aren't better, in this case, it's not that they aren't exactly what you might be looking for. But when people completely discount what IS here in this country (in this case the American TB) simply on the attitude of "foreign is better" without taking some time to investigate... well... I get a bit defensive as well (as the very proud owner of an OTTB). Am I assuming too much, Heather?

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Gry2Yng
Oct. 9, 2002, 02:54 PM
It is funny how, when one is sensitive to a topic, he/she can pick up inuendo that was not intended. As someone who currently owns two OTTB, rides a third OTTB for a woman who just bred to Aberjack and is best show buddies with another woman who bred two Fuerst Goddard babies out of a TB/draft cross and owns a Trak mare, I've attended an Oldenberg Inspection, etc.

I prefer OTTB, but love all the others and read NOTHING in this thread that seemed to slam Denny and May or American bred horses, because I am not sensitive to it and wasn't looking for it. Just opinions and an interesting discussion with pictures of some beautiful foals and stallions. Time for some decaf!

JER
Oct. 9, 2002, 03:10 PM
Yikes.

Becca writes:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>JER, Who are you ?

I repeat my question JER, what are your qualifications to knock Aberjack in print? Have you ridden him, like both Mark and Karen O`Connor have, and who rave about him? Have you seen him jump, or be ridden? Have you seen any of his first crop foals in the U.S. this year?Have you seen him do ANYTHING? Have you ever even seen HIM?
Before you can knock the credibility of a horse, or, by association,of the people who own and support him, perhaps it would be a good idea to have valid qualifications to do so. I repeat, how many gold medals do YOU have?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Becca, why does it matter who I am? I'm a member of this BB, I'm a horse person, I own one TB mare who I event and breed by embryo transfer.

When I said there were things I didn't like about Aberjack, I thought it was fairly clear that I was was describing what I saw in his conformation photo. The conformation photo is a promotional shot of the stallion -- the owners want you to see this so that you'll consider him for breeding. In making that consideration, a discerning mare owner will look at that photo and analyze how that stallion is put together. There is nothing wrong or emotionally loaded about critiquing a conformation photo. It can be the undisputed best #1 mega stallion in the world and a mare owner can say, "I don't favor horses that are so short-coupled or I don't like the way his head is set." This is not knocking a stallion's 'credibility' at all.

I've never ridden Aberjack and never claimed to. However, I do think it's definitely in his favor that BBers who have ridden him really like him. I'm not knocking his connections, either. I admire Mark Todd, and like I said, Aberjack does come from a fantastic line of eventers. I also said I liked Mark Todd's other stallion, Mayhill, who I have seen in person.

I have no gold medals (not even Gold Medal Flour!), but I'm not sure how a gold medal alone would make anyone a better judge of horseflesh or breeding. And frankly, I'd respect KOC, DOC and Mark Todd just as much if they didn't have any gold medals to their names. They are all class acts.

Heather, I did not feel I HAD to go overseas. I simply looked for the best stallion choice for my mare. I don't think of the world as Us vs. Them -- I'm a Europe-born US citizen and I'm as comfortable in Europe and Asia as I am here. Actually, I'm thrilled that with modern technology, going overseas is an option and we can bring foreign bloodlines into this country without shipping the entire stallion.

As for Tamarack/Denny, I harbor no ill will. I think it's great that they promote their stallions. I think it's great they stand TBs. But $2500 for Loyal Pal is a lot of money, especially when I haven't seen many babies of his except for the few photos on the web site. If they can fill his book at that price, great, but it is a bit outside my budget. Dazzler's fee is GBP700, which is $1095 at today's rate.

And tle, I don't discount US horses. I recently bought the-kid-of-whom-I'm-guardian a horse to do the upper levels with. We (her grandma and I, as we're her sole means of support and I'm not even related) had discussed how much we could spend and where to look, etc., and NZ and the UK looked like more cost-effective options. However, I found a talented, green OTTB about 100 miles east of LA and I am quite proud of our young Cal-bred who started jumping in June, won several classes at an A jumper show in Sept and did his first Novice HT last weekend.

rebecca
Oct. 9, 2002, 05:55 PM
The reason this thread has become so controversial is because some of you feel free to criticize other people's horses in ways that you would be appalled if other people did about YOUR horses.
What if you read that Mark Todd had publicly stated that your horse looked like he was made of spare parts, or looked like three horses in one, and he couldn't understand what you thought was so great about your horse? What if you knew that Mark had never seen your horse go in dressage, had never seen him jump so much as a cross rail, yet felt free to denigrate him in print?
Would you like that? You know, don't you, that someone is almost certain to forward this email thread to Mark, and you can imagine how the world's most renowned horseman is going to feel about your collective judgements about his horse, and how much he is going to resent your disparaging comments about a horse that he admires and loves, and that you have no real knowledge about?
What is it, other than anonymity, that makes people feel free to print negative comments for all to read about horses that other people really care about? Especially when those comments aren't based on actual knowledge of the horse being slammed?
If you wouldn't like it done to you, don't do it to others.
Becca

mwalshe
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rebecca:
You know, don't you, that someone is almost certain to forward this email thread to Mark, and you can imagine how the world's most renowned horseman is going to feel about your collective judgements about his horse, and how much he is going to resent your disparaging comments about a horse that he admires and loves, and that you have no real knowledge about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't imainge that he'll care one bit. It's his horse, he obviously thinks the world of it BUT he stands the horse as a breeding stallion so I'm sure he's used to people voicing their opinions on the horse's confirmation and way-of-going. Anyone who has stood studs for any number of years is going to have thicker skin than that!

This WAS a very interesting and informative thread at the beginning. I too thought the one photo I saw of Aberjack was not great, but that's my sum total knowledge of the horse. I've always loved Reputed Testimony and thought of breeding him to my mare so I was interested to hear other's opinons. Loyap Pal is out of my price range, particularly for a stud w/ no significant competition record for his babies as of yet- too much of a gamble for me at the moment. Catherston Dazzler or a son are on the list too but I am slightly afraid of getting an elephant- all his babies seem so big and the mare is a monster!

I would LOVE to see some baby photos so if we could all stop snipping at each other someone might possibly post some. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (please if possible post the mare too- that would be SO helpful, tx)

[This message was edited by maggymay on Oct. 09, 2002 at 08:56 PM.]

poltroon
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rebecca:
What if you read that Mark Todd had publicly stated that your horse looked like he was made of spare parts, or looked like three horses in one, and he couldn't understand what you thought was so great about your horse? What if you knew that Mark had never seen your horse go in dressage, had never seen him jump so much as a cross rail, yet felt free to denigrate him in print?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hee! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Frankly, I'd be honored that he deigned to notice my little mare, let alone comment on her shortcomings! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jreventer
Oct. 9, 2002, 07:07 PM
I considered breeding my mare to Wintry Oak. In the end I bred her to another stallion not because of Wintry Oak but because he had already gone up to vermont and I live in nc. May was wonderful and very honest with me. She told me Wintry Oaks semen did not ship well, which I of course appreciated since I was doing AI. If I had the money I would have bred to Aberjack. If Mark Todd believes he's worth standing at stud that's enough for me!

"There are times when you can trust a horse, time when you can't, and times when you have to."

www.boo.riana.com (http://www.boo.riana.com)

JER
Oct. 9, 2002, 07:26 PM
If Mark Todd were to ask me in person what I thought of the photo of his stallion, I'd tell him the same thing. I might have a totally different opinion if I saw the horse himself because pictures are not as accurate as we would like them to be. I would ask about the pasterns (any problems, does he pass them on) and the neck/shoulder (how well does he extend, perhaps there's a photo that gives a better view of it), as well as balance, movement, etc. And Mark Todd, being the consummate horseman he is, would undoubtedly not feel as if I were picking apart the horse he loves. He'd think my questions were entirely reasonable. He chose this stallion for educated reasons, not emotional reasons, and we can expect that he's more than happy to talk about it.

And if anyone forwards this thread to him, I do hope he reads it and joins the BB. Imagine that! Maybe he'll even post some Aberjack baby photos for us (finally)!

Maggymay, you're right, Dazzler babies tend to be large. My mare is compact and refined -- 16.1hh at the withers, 15.2hh at her back. But my filly is VERY tall and muscular -- all the string tests put her at 17+hh but I remain in denial. She will be no bigger than 16.2hh. Ok, maybe 16.3hh.

This topic -- event horse breeding -- is very interesting to me. But how are we supposed to rationally discuss breeding if we don't critique stallions and/or mares? I posted a pic of my mare some time ago on the breeding forum and am happy to discuss her in any way. If she's not your type, fine with me, I don't expect her to be everyone's taste and I do find it informative for someone to point out what they don't like about her.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 9, 2002, 07:47 PM
& it's an unusual one. Actually, I think everyone on the bulletin board should use his/her real name, but what I think is irrelevant in regard to name use.

Rebecca, I think most real horsepeople are more critical of their own horses than anyone else could ever be . . . so I doubt anyone has said anything that Mark Todd & Denny Emerson haven't thought themselves long ago about these horses. I certainly call our horses pet names such as "Miss Lumpy Legs" & I'm quite accurate in my descriptions. If you came & said Mary (my daughter's favorite mare) has a big belly, no topline, splints, bowed tendons & a few other things, we would shrug & say, "Yup, you're right. Good powers of observation". You would NOT hurt our feelings because you would be absolutely correct. When you know a horse intimately, you know its shortcomings as well as its strong points.

I don't see how eventers could help but love American TBs--they make excellent, world class event horses. Phillip Dutton, who competes for Australia, rides American TBs such as House Doctor.

The stallion I mention in my signature line (a stallion owned by a friend of mine) is an excellent example of an American TB that came through the same proving ground as Loyal Pal, the race track. He does not have the same bloodlines, but he does have excellent conformation & demonstrated heart & soundness. We have bred to him.

Still, I have to say, I (along with many other breeders) am always looking for "a better mousetrap" &, worldwide, there are very few stallions that have proven themselves in eventing & then have proven they can pass that talent on to their offspring.

Denny Emerson does not stand a single stallion who has both attributes. That is a fact. Furthermore, one stallion that DOES possess both attributes is much cheaper to breed to than many other stallions, for example Loyal Pal. It seems to make sense to me to breed to such a stallion, not as a criticism of American breeders or American horses or American bloodlines but simply because who can argue with success?

Catherston Dazzler is licensed as an AMERICAN WARMBLOOD. That's right, he is licensed by AWR! Does that make him all right, now that he has American in his name?

Geez, what a supersensitive bunch.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

mwalshe
Oct. 9, 2002, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
Maggymay, you're right, Dazzler babies tend to be large. My mare is compact and refined -- 16.1hh at the withers, 15.2hh at her back. But my filly is VERY tall and muscular -- all the string tests put her at 17+hh but I remain in denial. She will be no bigger than 16.2hh. Ok, maybe 16.3hh.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OMG /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Hmm, well that's not going to work. Mare is like 17hh or so, wore hind Ulsters on the front, a 6" bit and a 54" girth. Baby would presumably be bigger /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'll have to post a pic of her- she actually looks very like the pic of Aberjack that I've seen. Extension she could do- collection, uh, maybe, if she wanted to, typical TB /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but she was incredibly athletic and sensible.... I'd prefer a less "leggy" looking stud for her (if I ever get to breed her that is- she's currently out on semi-permanent loan). Her first filly was very nice, better conformed than her mom, if somewhat evil. Haven't seen the colt yet- by a turf-bred stallion, supposedly VERY nice and sweet.

I'm really thinking RID or ISH. The TBs I liked the best so far are Reputed Testimony and Never Bend Better or a son. Lots of Bend babies around and I only hear good things about them. I will have to check out Denny's other studs though. Thanks for the candid info all, esp from those of you who know the horses well /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daydream Believer
Oct. 10, 2002, 05:46 AM
Evalee....I LOFF Connemaras so don't forget Erin Go Bragh...he has evented successfully at advanced and has sired offspring that have made it to the upper levels as well...admitted by TB mares. I don't know of any full Connemara foals that have made it to advanced so far, but if someone is interested in a crossbred, he's a great pick. His stud fee is $1,000 and they ship semen. I'm curious about the comment someone said earlier about him siring "hot headed" babies. My mare and he share a family line (Erin Smithereen as she's a granddaughter of Greystone McErrill) and she is quite hot headed. I'm curious to hear other's opinions about the temperments of his babies keeping in mind the mare often passes her temperment too. Keeping her temperment in mind, I need to find a quiet calm tempered stallion for her.

Someone else thought about posting a picture of their mare to get suggestions on who to breed to. I just happen to have a recent conformation shot of my mare. I'd love opinions and suggestions. She's small...only 14:3...but is a big mover and very light and uphill in how she rides. She has given me a large, correct filly as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully, if all goes well, I'll start eventing her in the spring. She is by a Conn sire out of a TB mare bred from Tom Fool on top and Damascus on the bottom. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Daydream Believer
Oct. 10, 2002, 05:49 AM
Just for comparison sake..here's a picture of her filly at 6 months old. I've posted Misty's picture before here so some of you may remember her as my "mystery foal." Her sire is unknown and I'd welcome ideas. It's tough to guess as she looks quite a lot like her mother. She's now 13:3 at 7.5 months old. She's not as high behind as this picture makes her look either.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Greenbean
Oct. 10, 2002, 06:33 AM
"Still, I have to say, I (along with many other breeders) am always looking for "a better mousetrap" &, worldwide, there are very few stallions that have proven themselves in eventing & then have proven they can pass that talent on to their offspring.

Denny Emerson does not stand a single stallion who has both attributes. That is a fact."

I don't believe it's wise to be throwing out false facts...especially if you don't know the half of what you're talking about. Now, I know I run the risk of sounding biased, but I assure you I'm not...Denny does stand stallions that have talent and have passed this talent onto their offspring. Perhaps you should call Tamarack and get some information about their studs before pouring out false information onto a public discussion board.

Carrie

tle
Oct. 10, 2002, 06:49 AM
Evalee & JER... I think you misunderstood me. *YOU* are not the people I get irritated about... the ones that do their homework and simply find the stallion that works best for them across the pond. The ones that bug me are those who automatically assume if it's American anything (horse, car, instructor, whatever), it must be A) Cheap and B) not worth their time. Those people automatically assume that if it comes from abroad and/or has an accent it's better WITHOUT checking into the background or investigating ALL their options. Like Heather, if you find what you're looking for elsewhere, fine! I'm thrilled for you that you found the best match!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Catherston Dazzler is licensed as an AMERICAN WARMBLOOD. That's right, he is licensed by AWR! Does that make him all right, now that he has American in his name?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heehee... actually AWR means LESS to me. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a gorgeous hunk of man, but having known some AWB people in the past and how pushy they were with the AWB "label", I tend to roll in laughter at that "definition" (which I knew their mare and she was a Mutt, plain and simple).

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 10, 2002, 07:03 AM
I said "proven themselves in eventing & then have proven they can pass that talent on to their offspring". Certainly, Tamarack sires have proven talent & have sired talented babies but in eventing? The sires he seems to push most in his ads (Loyal Pal & Reputed Testimony) have proven themselves in other areas & I have yet to hear of their offspring having a lot of success in eventing.

However, I could certainly be wrong. I will take a look at the Tamarack website but would you please fill us all in, chapter & verse? Name the sire, name his achievements in eventing & the achievements of 2 or 3 of his offspring in eventing. Have any of the offspring reached the Olympics? Badminton? Burghley? Since we are (very seriously) interested in breeding horses that have the talent for 3 or 4 star I am not interested in knowing that an offspring has done training--that is not "success".

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Hilary
Oct. 10, 2002, 07:14 AM
the mare -

SOmeone wanted to see the mamas of these babies.

This is Shilling. Candian TB (15/16ths TB, they claimed there was some Clyde back there but I never saw any of it....)

16h, solid body, a bit fine in the legs, and her feet were ALL TB. So was her brain.

She could jump a bus, hated flatwork.

The websites with Windstar have been posted- I think Star looks more like him than like her mother.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 10, 2002, 07:16 AM
Looked at pictures of stallion offspring--obviously they think that the best advertising is cute foals but my reaction to that is WHO CARES? Looked at offspring testimonials--Loyal Pal has sired a "nice hunter" & Reputed Testimony has sired a cute foal out of an Appaloosa cross mare . . . WHO CARES? NOT ME!

There is a letter from Blythe Tait about Messiah & Delta. Wow--the kind of achievements I am interested in, but not a hint as to who the sire is.

I am an impatient person. If Denny Emerson or anyone else wants to catch my attention, they better not play games. I want all the facts on the stallion page--his achievements & his offspring, not some cutesy hints.

Greenbean, fill me in because I sure didn't find the info you mentioned on the website.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Greenbean
Oct. 10, 2002, 07:32 AM
yes, I will give you that -- the website holds little information on the offspring of these studs...and I cannot give you information offhand because I've never really been interested in it until now, but I know from talking to Tamarack staff that they do have some successful offspring. If you are interested, call the farm. They would be more than happy to give you information. All I am saying is that you stated a fact based on what little knowledge the public has on those peticular stallions' offspring. I'm really not up for an argument, I just think that before saying that they don't have any successful offspring you should take the next step and inquire about it. No need to give false information to the public.

Carrie

Jair
Oct. 10, 2002, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greenbean:
I just think that before saying that they don't have any successful offspring you should take the next step and inquire about it. No need to give false information to the public.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greenbean, I think it depends on what your idea of "successful" offspring entails. As Evalee stated above, to her it means that a stalllion promoted as an eventing sire would have offspring that are successful at the three and four star level.

To others, a successful stud might mean that he constantly produced easy to handle all-rounders who were good at lower level h/j, dressage and eventing. Every individual has their own idea of what success means.

As for false information, I don't think Evalee said anything wrong - there is no indication that any of the Emerson's lovely studs have produced a 3 or 4 star eventer, because if they had, why on earth wouldn't that be the first thing you see on the website? I would imagine that is something a stud owner would promote /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In more generic terms, I agree with the other posters above who mentioned that seeing cute pics of foals on a stallion's brochure/video/website doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. That always bugs me in the different stallion edition magazines! There are studs who have been around for years and years, yet the owner never shows pics of offspring under saddle! why? I never got that /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

(ps. the sire of Messiah and Delta was Aberlou xx, the same sire of Aberjack /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'd love to see a video of him jumping - after reading Mark Todd's description of him in his autobiography, he sounded incredible.)

flypony74
Oct. 10, 2002, 10:32 AM
Anybody know what the breeding fees are on Denny's stallions for 2003? Couldn't get to it on his website.

"Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die tomorrow." -- James Dean

bonfire
Oct. 10, 2002, 11:06 AM
There is an old saying about jumping sires,"They get famous about 20 minutes before they die."
Think about the time frame. Assume a stallion has to go out and prove himself as a competing athlete,because who wants to breed to a non athlete. This means the stallion is usually about 9 or 10 years old before you really know what he can do, especially in eventing, show jumping or dressage(grand prix level).
Now at some point, the horse starts to breed. If he starts breeding at 9, say, he`s 10 before his 1st babies are born. Usually breeders don`t breed tons of mares the 1st couple of years to a new stallion, because he isn`t established yet. Also, the very top mares are usually going to the older, more well established stallions, so down the line you will see there is a double whammy in effect.
By the time those 1st couple of crops are 6, 7, or 8 years old, which is when we really begin to know their records, the stallion is a mid to late teenager.
Now, as he approaches his 20s, his popularity starts to build, but unless he`s a Seattle Slew or a Mr. Prospector, his days are numbered.
That`s why breeders stress the performance record of the stallion, the success of his relatives, and, yes, the cuteness of those foals, so breeders give the stallion a chance.
Even Storm Cat, who stands for 500,000.dollars, has only about 16 per cent stakes winners. In other words, 84 per cent of the foals of the most expensive stallion in the world are considered failures by their breeders! Is it any wonder that so few stallions get many mares?
Great stallions are almost always horses which were from top families, and who were also top athletes. But the number that are recognized as such in the non racing disciplines, where they have to be 9 or 10, usually, before they hit their maturity and peak, is very rare.
How many advanced event stallions have advanced event babies, and are still fertile, or for that matter, are still alive?
Bonfire

JER
Oct. 10, 2002, 11:35 AM
bonfire, this is where the stud can make a difference.

I'll use the Catherston Stud as an example because I am familiar with their program. I know that many European studs do the same with young stallions. I'm sure many US breeders do as well -- Hilltop and Iron Spring for sure do this.

When your stallion is young and first graded (about age 3/4), you breed him to some of your own mares. Or you offer very low fees to mare owners as an incentive. But ideally, the stallion owner should hand pick these 'test' mares in order to get the best results.

Your stallion starts his competitive career at about the same time his first foals are born. By the time your stallion is reaching his prime, you have some good young (5/6) horses on the ground. (And if your stallion is not producing nice foals, you might have considered cutting him.)

Catherston Dazzler's very first foal was Broadstone Harvest Moon, who was imported to this country and had a solid career as an Advanced event horse with Amanda Warrington then Buck Davidson. Dazzler was born in 1984, BHM was only 3 or 4 years younger. And BHM was a good selling point for Dazzler as a stud. Hyde Park Corner is how old? 12? Then he was born when Dazzler was 6, meaning the breeding happened at 5.

This is one of the benefits of a breeding program -- you get the first foals out there early. In Europe, it is not unusual for quality mares to be bred at three, then start their sport horse careers.

Again, for all the supersensitive types out there, I'm not slamming anyone, I'm simply stating the way that a stud can overcome the 'age problem' that bonfire described.

Jair
Oct. 10, 2002, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonfire:
How many advanced event stallions have advanced event babies, and are still fertile, or for that matter, are still alive?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best example of that would be Welton Crackerjack (although he just died this past year at the grand age of 28 I believe!) Crackerjack was an advanced event horse who placed at Burghley CCI**** and sired the winners of Burghley, Badminton and Rolex (Welton Greylag, Welton Houdini and Welton Envoy respectively)

So it does happen! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

and while he may have been an older stallion these past few years, he was only 19 when Houdini won a 4 star, (and like JER was saying about the Catherston horses), was therefore probably only about 7 or 8 when he sired him and Greylag.

Greenbean
Oct. 10, 2002, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



As for false information, I don't think Evalee said anything wrong - there is _no_ indication that any of the Emerson's lovely studs have produced a 3 or 4 star eventer, because if they had, why on earth wouldn't that be the first thing you see on the website? I would imagine that is something a stud owner would promote /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I think saying that none of the studs have any famous offspring is false information Jair. And if you read my post earlier I did say that the website was not helpful when it came to giving off the names of those babies. I feel like that statement was a false fact. Anyway, no need to beat a dead horse...I really just wanted to see pictures. We could all spend weeks discussing what we felt classified a horse as "successful" but then again, there would be no point. Thanks for trying to clarify though Jair, much appreciated! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

yeah I would love to see the video of Aberlou too!! I heard she's AMAZING!

jeniferkey
Oct. 10, 2002, 02:10 PM
I have to agree with the hotness possibility for his babies.
http://home.flash.net/~centaur1/salehorses/wistypg.html
http://home.flash.net/~centaur1/salehorses/talpapg.html
These are pictures of two of his fillies out of a TB mare. They both are very athletic, but can be a handful. I don't think they're really the 'fun amateur type', more the move up the levels type.
True, the mare herself isn't a dead head, but she does a good job as a lesson horse when necessary...
Jennifer

Gry2Yng
Oct. 10, 2002, 04:30 PM
My dad was a breeder of working dogs for the military, police force and for families in the 60's and 70's. One of the things he used to say over and over and over, when talking to people about breeding was "If you find a good one, find the parents and breed THEM again." When you stand the "good one", you have to introduce new genes, and the mix has not been seen, but you KNOW what the parents produce - not that they will produce it every time.

Performance is a good indicator, but the performance of a stallion is really attributed to how good the cross that created him was. When that stallion produces successful horses of his own, THEN you have something.

Just want to say thanks for the introduction to CD. I think all of Denny's horses are very nice as well, but I am familiar with them. It is nice to learn something new.

bonfire
Oct. 10, 2002, 05:28 PM
JER,
I absolutely agree that if you can afford the BIG expense io having your own broodmare band (read Iron Spring and Hilltop), this can give your young stallion a huge advantage. But what about the vast majority who are NOT trust fund recipients?
The other huge advantage a stallion can get (or, conversely, the greatest drawback he can suffer) is whether great riders or back-yarders get hold of his foals.
If even the greatest stallion of modern times, Northern Dancer, bred to the greatest mares anywhere on earth, could only produce 25% stakes winners (meaning that 75% of his foals were "failures",based on what they were bred to do), then how many foals must a jumper sire produce before he gets recognized as a really good sire? And what if his best foals languish their life away with non-competitive riders, so his worth is never revealed?
Now I`m not knocking Aberjack`s sire Aberlou, because in addition to Aberjack he also sired world champion Messiah, and Badminton 2nd and 5th place winners Delta and Nufarm Alibi, but you can`t tell me it hurt to have them ridden by two double gold medallists like Blyth Tait and Mark Todd.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the greatest jumper sire in the world is out there somewhere, totally undiscovered, and never will be discovered,because noone will ever jump those babies to find out.
It`s probably a huge accident that Caro, Loyal pal`s sire, ever sired two USET grand prix jumpers, because he was so expensive as a racehorse sire, no jumper people would have ever bred to him.
It was only after Ping Pong and Tashiling couldn`t run, I would guess, that anybody tried them over fences.
Finding great jumper sires will never be easy, because MOST of the time, when their great star comes along, like Good Twist`s son Gem Twist, the sire is either infertile or deceased.
Bonfire

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 10, 2002, 06:13 PM
& other reproductive technologies. Of course, you can't register a TB with the JC if you use those technologies, but you can record your horse, its birth date & parents with the Performance Horse Registry.

Anyway, using those technologies means that the really great stallions will get the opportunity to continue to sire foals after they are not able to otherwise. A reproductive vet told me that frozen semen will last, essentially without degradation, for 53,000 years, so here's to Aberjack, Catherston Dazzler & all the other great ones, still siring babies 530 centuries from now!

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 10, 2002, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
Daytime that filly has to be 1/2 TB.

She's VERY nice, lucky you!

I wish I would hurry up and win the lotto so I can buy my huge breeding farm /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Maggymay! I agree with you. I am very lucky. I believe a TB got to the mare at a sale she came through about the time of her breeding date. We figured that based on when Misty was foaled. The only other possibility was a 15:2 hand working (heavy duty) QH stallion owned by the folks who took her to the sale but looking at her..I don't see any QH traits at all. So if it was a TB then she's 3/4 TB and 1/4 Conn. I'm hoping for a super event horse when she grows up!

Jeniferkey,

Thanks for the pics of the Erin Go Bragh fillies. They are lovely. The second filly in particular reminds me quite a bit of my mare especially in the head and neck. They are related thru Erin Go Bragh's sire. Erin Smithereen was Bonnie's 3rd grandsire (her sire's great grandsire...confused yet?) If he is throwing "lively" babies than linebreeding back through him might not be wise. I appreciate getting to see them.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Archie
Oct. 11, 2002, 05:55 AM
JER wrote "I just don't get what Mark Todd thinks is so great about him (Aberjack.)"
Mark Todd wrote me "One of the features that first attracted me to Aberjack was his fantastic form over a fence. He uses his shoulder very well, is very neat and even with his knees, supple through his back and opens out very well behind. He had such tremendous scope in his jump that it would have been easy to imagine him excelling in the jumping arena. With his amazingly laid back temperament, and good looks that he is passing on to his offspring, he will be the perfect sire for the hunter jumper market, as well as for eventing."
Archie

Greenbean
Oct. 11, 2002, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Archie:
JER wrote "I just don't get what Mark Todd thinks is so great about him (Aberjack.)"
Mark Todd wrote me "One of the features that first attracted me to Aberjack was his fantastic form over a fence. He uses his shoulder very well, is very neat and even with his knees, supple through his back and opens out very well behind. He had such tremendous scope in his jump that it would have been easy to imagine him excelling in the jumping arena. With his amazingly laid back temperament, and good looks that he is passing on to his offspring, he will be the perfect sire for the hunter jumper market, as well as for eventing."
Archie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



MARK TODD WROTE YOU A LETTER!!!!????????????????? TELL ME YOU'RE SERIOUS!! I AM SO EXCITED!!!

JER
Oct. 11, 2002, 07:54 AM
Maybe Archie has some photos of Aberjack's foals?!

We're still waiting...

Janeway
Oct. 11, 2002, 09:36 AM
but that Mark Todd "reply" sounds just like the press release written up in Horse and Hound when Aberjack was first sent to stand in the US.

Perhaps Archie was just pulling out a quote to illustrate what it was that drew Mark to the horse. Which indeed it does.

But I highly doubt that is a personal reply to our little thread from the great eventer himself /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anne
Oct. 11, 2002, 09:57 AM
It would be lovely if Denny's stallions had gotten the start that JER described as part of Catherston's "program". However, with the exception of Aberjack and Wintry Oak, Denny's stallions were racehorses, and began their careers at stud standing to that market. Their oldest foals are racehorses. It is hardly fair to judge their first few crops, bred to race out of racehorse mares, for not producing the eventing world's latest phenom! Loyal Pal's first foals are 9. His first crop with Denny is 5. Rep's first foals are 7; his first Denny crop is also 5. Prussian Blue's first foals are only 2 year olds.

OlmosHeaven
Oct. 11, 2002, 10:48 AM
She's very attractive, much more white on her than her mother and a rich color that doesn't bleach out like her mother's coat.

Unfortunately, she's very small -- only 15-1 and I doubt if she's going to get any bigger. Mom is 16-2; grandmom was 16-1; mom's half-sister is 16-1. Don't know what happened to the filly.

But if we ever get around to backing her, I think with the way she moves, she should make a nice children's hunter or child's eventer or maybe a small person's dressage mount. Don't know how she jumps yet though. Actually, I think she would make a terrific polo pony -- she's assertive, doesn't mind close quarters, quick. I know of people nearby who do some training/selling of polo ponies, but that's out of my area and might cost us more than we could expect to get out of her.

Maybe one of these days, we'll get some current photos of her and post them.

rebecca
Oct. 11, 2002, 11:02 AM
O.K., What if???
you could breed Cozzene(stud fee, unfortunately, $60,000.) to Fein Cera, and get a COLT!!
This would get you the Caro cross, up close, in a world class racehorse, and the Holsteiner power and jumping ability from the dam.
Or, if you bred Espoir de la Mare to Nufarm Alibi, and got a COLT!!
This would give you the Ibrahim sire line and Aberlou on the dam`s side, and two world class eventers as parents.
Obvious dreaming, but what are some other "what ifs"?
Becca

Janeway
Oct. 11, 2002, 11:40 AM
then how about Fusiachi Pegasus crossed with a top eventing mare? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'd love to see FuPeg jump!

SuperSpike
Oct. 11, 2002, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne:
It would be lovely if Denny's stallions had gotten the start that JER described as part of Catherston's "program". However, with the exception of Aberjack and Wintry Oak, Denny's stallions were racehorses, and began their careers at stud standing to that market. Their oldest foals are racehorses. It is hardly fair to judge their first few crops, bred to race out of racehorse mares, for not producing the eventing world's latest phenom! Loyal Pal's first foals are 9. His first crop with Denny is 5. Rep's first foals are 7; his first Denny crop is also 5. Prussian Blue's first foals are only 2 year olds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point!

*You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time. -Bob Marley

mcp
Oct. 11, 2002, 04:05 PM
Prussian Blue's first foal is actually a long yearling. I have her!

Fred
Oct. 11, 2002, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SuperSpike:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anne:
It would be lovely if Denny's stallions had gotten the start that JER described as part of Catherston's "program". However, with the exception of Aberjack and Wintry Oak, Denny's stallions were racehorses, and began their careers at stud standing to that market. Their oldest foals are racehorses. It is hardly fair to judge their first few crops, bred to race out of racehorse mares, for not producing the eventing world's latest phenom! .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Most event horses in North America were not bred to be event horses, but to be race horses. These horses, whether they made it to the track or not, or were relatively successful on the track or not, then went on to be event horses. But bred to be race horses. In my experience, few people in North America even yet, are breeding specifically for eventing talent.
To illustrate my point a bit further: the TB stallions best known for producing jumping talent - the Nearco line (didn't D.E call him the Horse of the Century?) his great son Nasrullah, his great son Bold Ruler, his great son Bold Bidder, his great son Spectacular Bid, Royal Charger, his son Turn-to, his son Sir Gaylord, Double Jay, My Babu etc etc. All of these horses were bred to be race horses, and bred to produce race horses. Nothing else. And they were great racehorses and great racehorse stallions.
It is only as these offspring come off the track and into the show ring that these stallions become known as sporthorse producers. To that end, I would imagine that there should be quite a few offspring by the stallions discussed above, since they all stood as racehorse stallions first. And since they were not outstanding as racehorse stallions, it would be expected that a higher percentage of their offspring would not have gone to the breeding shed, but instead to the riding horse market. So actually there should be quite a few of them around by now.
I'm sorry to see this discussion get people so riled, but
hat being said, what is great about this discussion, is that it means that people are starting to realize that if you want great event horses, like Britain, you have to breed for them. That doesn't mean that great event horses don't come off the track. Off course they do. But that is often a lucky set of circumstances. But when people make intelligent breeding decisions, looking and selecting for certain qualities (speed, courage, jumping ability, movement ) we can only increase our chances of producing individuals who can excel in this discipline and whose long term soundness won't already be compromised to some degree or another by a racing career. That bodes well for the future of eventing in North America.
I am speaking as one of those 'other' people who steadfastly breed Thoroughbreds as sport horses, who stands a Thoroughbred stallion (who is also being bred to specifically to produce event horses) and believe in them as the supreme athletes of the horse world.

There is no one and only stallion, but if we as breeders, keep selecting and breeding the best to the best, we'll produce great horses. Adding some outside blood, such as C.D. can only be a good thing. His daughters will eventually be bred, and so on...

Sannois
Oct. 12, 2002, 05:14 AM
And have for years! Felt I had to chck in on this one. I am not a breeder, nor do I presently own a mare. However the two horsemen that I have always looked up to, are Denny Emerson, and Mark Todd. I own everything every taped or Printed by Mark, and have learned so much from his writings. I wouldn not say I have an exceptional eye for a horse, as some of the examples of What Mark looks for in his prospects were not exceptionally pretty to me, noted in his book Novice Eventing. But when I first layed eyes on a pic of Aberjack jumping, I was blown away, That was what an eventer should look like, and pairing the two best horsemen to bring a superb stallion to the states was a great move in my book. If I had a mare I would want to breed her to one of Dennys stallons. The Emersons are a wonderful pair, and have been and still are such a strong and wonderful influence in the eventing world. I have longed to have the opportunity to ride with Denny, and vow to someday before I'm to old to do just that. I personally have always felt that we in the US need to continue to strive for the American sport horse, The TB! And keep the blood here, and improve it. Like I said I am no one in particular, but a middle aged Novice eventer, on a middle aged TB. I am continually surprised by the fact that some people always have something not so positive to say about some wonderful horseman. Someone said they wished we would all use our real name on here.. I believe it was Evalee Hunter, I have no problem with that, Kim Horan /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

JER
Oct. 12, 2002, 10:23 AM
Well said, Fred.

If a TB stallion is a good sport horse type, you would hope that the racehorses he produces would also be of sport horse type -- this would tell you that he passes along those qualities. This is why certain lines of racing-breds -- the Buckpasser line, the Roberto line from Hail to Reason -- do turn out a significant number of eventers/sport horses.

I have looked at a number of affordable TB racing stallions for breeding. The owners send videos with the horse in motions, of his offspring racing, etc. And even though it's all racing stuff, you can get a good idea of what this stallion passes on and if the offspring have sport horse potential. Unfortunately, I can't afford the stud fees for FuPeg, Silver Charm (who's too closely related to my mare but what a horse) or War Emblem.

In the UK/Ireland, there are the very reasonably-priced National Hunt (steeplechase) stallions -- TBs who may have failed as flat stallions but are successful in producing jumpers. This is an alternative that we simply don't have in this country.

Personally, I'd just like to see photos of foals and youngstock. I don't care if they've won/competed -- you can tell a lot from what they look like. I would like to see what a stallion passes on before paying the stud fee. In the case of Loyal Pal, the list of mares he's bred to is relevant in a way, because my mare looks nothing like these mares. What's right for Rox Dene is probably not right for her.

And yes, Fred, I was going for 'outside blood' -- just a bit of it. In a few years' time, I would like to breed my 13/16ths TB filly to a full TB.

I should also mention I like your filly, Daydream Believer, as well as those two Erin Go Bragh fillies. But I'm a sucker for small, short-coupled mares!

JER
Oct. 12, 2002, 10:40 AM
In the latest Eventing (UK) magazine, there's an article on Blyth Tait and Fiona Craig, the woman he does dressage with. They talk a bit about Delta (Aberlou daughter) -- I'll quote from the article:

Fiona Craig: "Delta...was quite difficult because she didn't have good natural paces."

Blyth Tait: "Delta was resistant and limited in her movement and had a difficult canter."

Anyway, I thought this was interesting in light of these discussions. From a mare owner's POV, I would use this information to check out whether this was something peculiar to Delta or a quality that was consistent in this line of horses. We all know Delta and her relatives could jump the moon but I'd want to know if Aberjack passes on his 'good paces' or if Delta's limitations crop us often.

Likewise, Bruce Davidson said that High-Scope had a 'downhill' gallop. This is something that would definitely be a problem for me, especially in a big horse, as I tip the scales at a whopping 110lbs. HS was a son of Touchdown, also sire of Dermott Lennon's WEG SJ champ, Liscalgot. This is undoubtedly a strong line of horses that can jump, but I'd want to know how prevalent the downhill gallop is (if at all) before breeding to HS.

Before someone jumps in to accuse me of 'knocking' anyone, I want to stress that what I'm trying to do is show what sort of information I -- as a mare owner -- find relevant in searching for a stallion. As others have said here, there is no perfect stallion, just the stallion that you think optimizes your chances of getting the horse you want.

KBequestrian
Oct. 12, 2002, 11:08 AM
The comments about Delta and her movements....I think it comes from her dam's side which is standardbred. I have a book of Blyth's where he discusses this subject.

[This message was edited by KBequestrian on Oct. 12, 2002 at 06:22 PM.]

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 12, 2002, 12:30 PM
for feeling that you can't find that steeplechase stallion ("National hunt") near you at a low stud fee--Poles Apart stands in New Mexico, I believe. He is one of the leading Steeplechase sires & his stud fee is only $2,500 even though he is the sire of Tres Touche who is winning all over in Steeplechasing, although I think the best Tres Touche did in England was 3rd. Steeplechase sires do generally have fairly low stud fees even if they have sired stakes winners because Steeplechase is not too popular in this country.

We have a daughter of Poles Apart (Broken Seal) & I think she is about as sound as you could ask for--raced 77 times (all over a mile) & won 10 as well as being second or third about 25 more times. We bought her as a broodmare because, although she raced on the flat, I liked her soundness & heart & her jumping breeding. We have 2 lovely, correct colts out of her, both demonstrating her level-headed, common sense approach to life.

Seal has not been proven on the event course & her foals are a weanling & a yearling, but I think she has a lot of potential. She is open this year so my daughter plans to hunt her this winter & see if she is brave xc.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

pwynnnorman
Oct. 12, 2002, 01:22 PM
And most enjoyable, until I was just about to post when JER stole my thunder with comments about the gallop.

Problems with proving event stallions in the US (other than the "get famous and die" factor already mentioned):

1.) fewer upper level events = fewer upper level event horses to prove upper level event stallions.

2.) fewer riders capable of/interested in riding real talent and so breed for temperament instead, making "proving" upper level talent that much more difficult, by the numbers

3.) more money than sense in a lot of breeding "programs" (a la the "every baby is perfect syndrome, etc.)

4.) a LOT more "give away" (unproven, often unsound, often capable of doing nothing except reproducing) mares being bred, and thus diluting the potential of good stallions

5.) no system to acknowledge the success of stallions' get

6.) not very well-educated consumers--in all the talk about Denny's stallions, it took 5 pages before stride was discussed and yet you never hear even the stallion owners themselves describing their stallions' length and type of stride knowledgeably

7.) lots of "programs" designed to bring in the stud fees and sell babies, NOT necessarily to produce upper level horses [sorry, this one is my pet peeve since I'm sacrificing a lot to do exactly the opposite]

8.) virtually no breeding of stallion prospects specifically for eventing--they are "found" (or imported), not bred, resulting in very few stallions with event-proven relatives

9.) mare owners who do not keep in touch with (and/or who are not ENCOURAGED to keep in touch with) stallion owner/managers so that the get can be tracked, also a huge country which makes tracking babies that much more difficult

10.) trainers who couldn't care less about breeding and so rarely help to promote a stallion (although I think this is starting to change with some excellent examples out there now)

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

Daydream Believer
Oct. 12, 2002, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the complement on my girl JER. Your filly is lovely too. How do you think Dazzler would cross with my little mare?

I think my priorities for a stallion for her are: 1. Outstanding temperment to offset her hotheadedness. 2. larger with more bone. 3. Correct legs especially pasterns...not too slopey. 4. Outstanding movement and jumping ability. Oh and I'm not partial to grays but for the right stallion I might gamble on color. The desired attributes are not in any order necessarily. Affordable stud fees are a nice thing too since I'm on a budget like most folks. Oh and I LOFF "sporthorses of color" and am very tempted by the flashy boys! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't care too much about breed. He could be all TB or mostly like CD but I'd like to stay away from the heavy WB types since she's only half TB. Maybe something that has some WB in there but not more than half. My goals are to breed a nice all around riding horse for myself (an amateur with a fair amount of mileage and experience). I'd like something that would event at least to Prelim and have strong dressage ability as well. I'd like it quiet enough to trail ride without taking your life in your hands.

If anyone knows of any stallions they think would complement her, I'm interested in hearing about them. Thanks!

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

JER
Oct. 13, 2002, 10:51 AM
Daydream B, take a look at the stallions listed at stallionsdirect.com (http://www.stallionsdirect.com/). They have a subsection of 'Eventing' sires, but look through all the sport listings -- I know the Catherston stallions are all listed there but not under eventing. This info is pretty useful -- pedigree, photos, offspring, qualifications and to what countries semen is approved for import.

If you like color, check out Stanhope's Diddicoy. I think he stands at the Broadstone Stud (he was featured in their ads) and has produced a number of quality offspring, some of whom are eventing. SD is a coloured stallion who has enough quality to be a stallion even if he was solid coloured.

There are a number of advanced eventers on the site, notably Mill Law, who's produced some quality eventing offspring, and the part-Cleveland Bay Pembridge Mistrel, a very handsome horse who's competed at the CCI*** level. If you look under showjumping, there's No Complaints, who is Grade A in SJ but two years ago took up eventing with great success.

British breeders have made great efforts to organize and promote British stallions. This website, as well as the one for the West Kington Stallion Centre, which is the semen bank that handles the AI collection and semen export for most of these horses, are very informative, the result of cooperation among breeders to promote their sporthorse stallions.

I do apologize to everyone who's about to spend too much of their valuable time looking at (and drooling over) these stallions -- it's very hard to tear yourself away!

quietgirl
Oct. 13, 2002, 01:03 PM
i also have a baby (filly) by Catherston Dazzler. i purchased a mare in great britian from diana scott who stood the great Ben Faerie. she is by diana's personal hunt horse the stallion Hot Rumour. my filly was born in late may. jennie loriston-clarke comes to my farm for clinics several times a year. she told me last year that they have frozen semem for Dazzler here in the US at a equine clinic here in florida. some other famous progeny by Dazzler are Dazzling Effects (best mare at Badminton 2000), Midnight Dazzler recently taken over by William Fox-Pitt, and Faerie Dazzler, **** mare ridden by David Green. another interesting fact about Dazzler is that he is out of a mare named Welton Gazelle. bred by Sam Barr, Welton Gazelle is a full sister to Welton Louis. in 1995-96 Welton Louis was the #1 stallion in the world ranking for all FEI competing horses, largely on the success of his daughter Welton Romance, ridden by Lucy Thompson. i also own a half brother to this horse also by Welton Louis. Welton Louis is also the father of Ginny Elliot (Leng)'s Welton Chit Chat. he was also at that time the only stallion to achieve advanced status in eventing, grand prix status in dressage and grade b status in show jumping. Back to Dazzler, his father was the famous english dressage horse, Dutch Courage. this wonderful horse was the bronze medalist at the 1978 World Championships at Goodwood. hope some of you found this interesting.

Anne
Oct. 13, 2002, 05:50 PM
"If a TB stallion is a good sport horse type, you would hope that the racehorses he produces would also be of sport horse type -- this would tell you that he passes along those qualities."

I agree with JER and Fred, but the actual odds of one or more of Denny's stallions' racebred offspring falling into the right hands to become event horses after they retire are slim to none. I was only trying to point out at least one reason, maybe, why Denny's website does not feature older offspring. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daydream Believer
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:25 AM
JER,

Thanks for that link! I was drooling over those handsome guys! Wow, what a resource. Why can't we have something like that here in the states or do we? What convenience for the mare owner looking for a stallion...all on one website. So many top stallions with performance records.

I really liked Mill Law too however I couldn't get Stanhopes' Diddicoy to come up for some reason.

Thanks again! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Robby Johnson
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:28 AM
Where there were some really lovely horses. Two of my favorites? Michael Dan Mendell's Dark Harbour, a lovely Irish TB that came over when he was three, and Stephen Bradley's Joshua, who came from the Charlestown racetrack. Joshua, FWIW, was the better mover.

As Poe sang on her recent "Haunted" album (which everyone, IMO, should own and listen to weekly), "hey everybody when you walk the walk you gotta pack it all up can you talk the talk." Years ago I read a wonderful article written by Denny Emerson that said mare owners should work closely with the stallion owner to select the best match for the mare.

The article went on to say that a good stud would take the individual mare seriously, be responsive, blah blah blah.

So, when considering a stallion for Willow I wrote a lengthy letter and sent several photographs, along with a SASE to Tamarack Hill. Months went by, no response. One day my envelope came back to me, and I hastily opened it, hoping to find feedback, etc. In it were my photographs. Nothing else.

This tarnished the breeding program greatly, in my eyes. Denny and I did share an email exchange about it a year or so later, in which he apologized profusely and chalked it up to someone in the barn who may've mismanaged it during the transition from NC to VT. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As JER says, the stud fees are high. If you are positioning yourself to be a leader, you must train everyone you employ to perform as a leader.

I will never regret my decision to send Willow to A Fine Romance. And this came after I was smitten with Aberjack, got advised by JER (my pal) about CD - who I love - and then ultimately had to make the decision about who would be best for Willow. Fred was. Big time. Ti Amo is perfect and I can only feel that if my mare had to die to deliver him, that I am eternally grateful he is such a high quality boy.

And a pure TB! LOL!

At Radnor this weekend, I was able to speak with someone who has evented a CD offspring to a high level, and who occassionally breeds mares. A few years ago she mentioned to me that she was considering Aberjack. This weekend I asked her if she had ever had the babies and she said that they didn't wind up breeding to him.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

bonfire
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:56 AM
There was an article in some horse magazine about how Americans are the most sophisticated tv watchers on earth because the most highly talented and savvy and artistic people work for ad agencies and studios, etc. Therefore, this article said something like "if you don`t have a FABULOUS video of a horse for sale, it`s better not to send some amateur job that will turn people off. It went on to say that NOTHING comes close to actually seeing the horse. The same must be true for stallions. It`s really hard to breed to some horse that is 3000 miles away, because it`s usually done either from videos, pictures, or someone`s recommendation, none of which are as good as an actual visit.
How often have any of you had a certain impression of a horse, only to have that impression totally changed, for better or worse, by seeing the horse?
Bonfire

JER
Oct. 14, 2002, 08:42 AM
There's a 2002 Aberjack filly for sale, listed in last week's Chronicle (or the week before, I get it late in CA). Says she's nice and correct. Asking $10,000 for this weanling.

(Maybe we should call for pictures -- then we'll finally see that elusive Aberjack foal!)

I second Robby's disappointment in Tamarack's customer service. As I mentioned earlier, they ignored my emails. While I'm sure there are a lot of tire-kickers out there, when you're selling stallion services at high prices, you should be following up every inquiry with at least a brief response. And it annoys me that Rox Dene's owners probably got better treatment than some of us.

Robby, I saw in your Radnor notes you were stabled near Steuart Pitman's eventing stallion, Salute the Truth. Any thoughts worth sharing?

Another note on Delta: the same Eventing article said she was out of a 'rodeo mare'. I figured this was a cattle-station-bred TBx. But if she got her gaits and movement from her dam, this means she didn't get it from the stallion Aberlou -- this might mean he passed on jumping ability but not elastic movement. I mention this only because, as a mare owner, I look at that info in a particular way.

re: videos vs. in the flesh. You CAN discern quite a bit from photos and video, especially if you can get your hands on a good amount of material. My only shock when I saw CD in the UK was how BIG he is, but the angles were the same, the movement was exactly how it looked.

quietgirl -- do you have photos of your Dazzler foal? I'd love to see her. Is the mare a full TB or TBx?

Robby Johnson
Oct. 14, 2002, 08:49 AM
Other than seeing him in his stall and just out hacking, I cannot comment on movement/jump, etc. As someone noted, they withdrew and left before the s/j. But just in the barn he was a dream. Stabled right there with everyone, and no cross behavior whatsoever. (At least nothing out of the ordinary, like defensive/protective instincts at feeding time.) He has what I would describe as a very "wise eye." His expression seems to denote that he knows a lot more than his years (I think he's seven or eight) let on. I did speak with Steuart about him and they're quite pleased with his foals.

Maybe some Area II'ers who watch him go regularly can comment on jump and movement. I would have to give him 4*'s for temperament, though.

Another stallion there who gave an overall lovely impression - particularly in the temperament department - was Darren Chiacchia's Alherich. I didn't think he was a phenomenal mover, but certainly not bad by any means. He is gorgeous, though, with a great jump and a hack on the buckle in the midst of hectic warmup mentality.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

quietgirl
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:50 AM
jer, hi i do have photos but i am a bit computer illerate. i will try to scan some to send to you. the mother is a daughter of Hot Rumour, who was by the great eventing stallion Ben Faerie, who was also the father of Priceless, 1984 bronze medalist los angles(ginny leng) 1985 badminton winner, and 1986 world champion (gawler australia) , Nightcap who won burhley in the mid eighties, Minerva, full sister to Nightcap, who is the mother of Welton Envoy, who won rolex **** in 2000, and Welton Ambassador. my mare was born, bred and raised at Brendonhill in Somerset and was out of Diana Scott's champion hunter mare Lady Di. she i believe is a 7/8 ths bred (1/8 ID) i bought her from diana as a 3 year old and sent her to Catherston to be put in foal before shipping her last fall. it's nice to communicate with someone else interested in breeding.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:57 AM
Funny someone should mention the quality of videos. A girlfriend bred to Aberjack last year and we looked at video of Noble Champion, Salute the Truth and one other wb stallion in order to decide who the mare would be bred to this year. The Noble Champion video was by far the slickest and made quite an impression. The Salute the Truth video was so poorly done it was a turn off. The presentation can really affect your attitude toward which stallion to pursue further.

Fred
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:33 PM
Anne - I understood the point you were making completely, I just disagreed with you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I don't want to get into an arguement, nor do I want to be 'dissing' anyone's stallion. But speaking generally, if I stallion stood for 3 or 4 years as a race horse stallion, even if he only got 10 foals a year, that would be a minimum of 30 -40 foals now aged 10, 9,8,7 - all of an age to be out and doing something. If they made it to the track, and if they came off sound (or even relatively sound) - and if the stallion was not a successful racing stallion , those offspring would not, generally speaking have gone to the breeding shed.
Given the subsequent very high profile one would think instead that these offspring would have been sought out, bought up and in the show ring..... and they may very well be, I think that was just what people were asking... Just my opinion of course.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:36 PM
& I have said so before, but my opinion has not been popular.

Loyal Pal had some offspring (JC registered) born in 1993 so they will soon be 10.

I made a quick check of Loyal Pal's JC registered offspring--he has had 60 JC registered foals in 9 crops. Of the 60, 4 are 2 year olds & 3 are yearlings & none are weanlings. (Some of the weanlings may get registered before their 1 year birthday.) Of course, he has other foals that are not registered with the JC because they were conceived by AI or their dams were not JC registered or the foal belongs to someone who doesn't care to bother with registering, etc.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

[This message was edited by Evalee Hunter on Oct. 14, 2002 at 10:18 PM.]

Greenbean
Oct. 14, 2002, 08:58 PM
Please don't throw flames, but I don't think that there's a need to post opinions on any farm's customer service. If you have qualms with the farm, please keep them to yourself, no matter how innocent they may seem. Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:43 PM
As long as one is speaking from one's own experience & not engaging in the "he said" kind of innuendo, why shouldn't we post our experiences with farm's customer service--people certainly post their personal experiences on other topics such as clinicians. Why should a farm's customer service be a "no-no"?

Goodness, that's what this board is all about--helping each other by posting our own knowledge. I don't think anyone is "throwing flames" when they say, "I contacted this farm & this is what they did in response."

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

JER
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:47 PM
Greenbean, I disagree.

1. When you are standing a stud and offering breedings to paying customers, you are selling a SERVICE. The entire experience is important to the customer, from the first inquiry to the semen shipping to the final billing. And with shipped semen, timing can be very critical and you do need to have a cooperative relationship between stallion owner and mare owner. The mare owner/reproductive vet will also need to verify information for vet purposes or for USDA permits, again in a timely manner, and this also requires the responsivenes and participation of the stud or semen bank.

2. When I related my experience with Tamarack, I was stating a first-hand experience. Ditto for Robby. There was no hearsay involved. My experience is just that, an experience, and not an opinion.

Just Lookin
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:59 AM
There is a very classy son of Aberjack currently eventing in NZ if anyone is interested. He just won a prelim here. I think he was the only horse produced here before Aberjack was exported....I could be wrong...I remember reading about him recently. I think he is 5 or 6yrs old...

We have 4 or 5 Aberlou stallions standing at stud down here. Aberlou as a rule produced very fancy movers, with exceptional jump in them (OK, so Delta was not a great mover...!!) BUT...his temperament was not guaranteed. A very high percentage of the Aberlous are really nervous/fizzy/unpredictable. You get a good one you've got a great one... Messiah was a bit of a nervous horse...as are many of the other Ab's still competing here in NZ.

If anyone is interested, we had a huge article recently in our local magazine about the Aberlou line and his offspring stallions - including Aberjack. I can scan in a picture of the son of Aberjack if anyone is interested??

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:00 AM
I think we'd all like to see that picture.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:05 AM
that would be fantastic to see! Thank you!

Greenbean - I wasn't posting opinions either; I am always more prone to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and I think Denny's breeding program appears to be really on-track for producing Thoroughbred sport horses.

I just had an experience that left me a little sour, that's all! I think with all things in life, it's meant to happen for a reason. I was pointed to a different TB stallion and he is everything my mare needed, x20!

I think it's very neat that you get to ride the stallions. I've only sat on 2 stallions in my entire life; one was a retired racehorse when I was a teenager in Alabama, the other was A Fine Romance this summer in Toronto. There is something markedly different about sitting on a stallion. Particularly if they like you! You get the feeling that they would take you anywhere, and that they are really working hard to "co-habitate" with you!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

rebecca
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:24 AM
These other stallions that you mention, Robby and Evalee and JER, etc. and that you like. What did they actually do in the ring or on the track?Were they themselves proven athletes at high levels like Loyal Pal and Aberjack? Just wondering why you keep knocking other stallions, if you have something to gain by that, or you`re just venting?
Did the people at Tamarack injure you in some way that makes you carry on so? Have any of you three actually visited that farm? Did they treat you in some terrible way when you went there? Were the stallions that you saw there so badly made or souch terrible movers that it offended you all so profoundly? You certainly can`t leave it alone, can you? Becca

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:34 AM
& what his offspring have done.

If you read my posts, I have NOT knocked any of the Tamarack stallions. & I don't think JER or Robby has, either, although some other posters were critical of Aberjack's conformation.

I have read this whole thread & the main negative comments have been directed at the responses gotten to stallion inquiries & the lack of "real" information about the offspring of these stallions.

JER posted this link to Dazzler's page:

http://www.catherstonstud.net/Stud%20Book%20-%20Dazzler.htm

Apparently, you did not look at it or you would KNOW what he & his offspring have done. There have been long theads about A Fine Romance (Fred) & if you search on his name you can read about his achievements & those of his offspring.

Another stallion I mentioned, Poles Apart, is a TB stallion known as the sire of Steeplechase horses. He is not proven as an event stallion but he is definitely proven as a stallion of TBs who can run & jump (have you ever seen how high steeplechase jumps are??) & he is proven as the sire of sound horses.

I think every (OTHER) stallion recommended on this thread has more to offer, both in terms of the stallion's own performance & in terms of the performance of the offspring, than any of the Tamarack stallions. You may not like that, but we have all provided the backup evidence for this statement.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

[This message was edited by Evalee Hunter on Oct. 15, 2002 at 07:44 AM.]

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:58 AM
TLE mentioned breeding her mare--certainly she is free to breed to any Tamarack stallion, but I wanted to offer her some information that she appeared not to know about other stallions in the eventing world.

I think that is what this board is all about--helping each other out with information. No one person can know everything--we all have to point each other toward new sources.

Actually, I could point anyone who wanted to know to other stallions with eventing experience (to prelim or intermediate) & in some cases with offspring that have been successful.

An example would be Adamant who sired the top young rider intermediate horse of area II a few years back & has sired other successful eventers. He was a successful eventer himself. Later, Adamant was also used for foxhunting by the owner's daughters when they were teenagers--while he was an active breeding stallion--now that's TEMPERAMENT.

Another example would be Salute the Truth. Someone mentioned his awful video--well, I haven't seen the video but I have seen the stallion & he is nice. I don't know that he has sired any successful (upper level) offspring yet but he is out there doing prelim himself.

My daughter competed the AWR stallion, Secret Ambition, at training & had expected to move him to prelim this year but he got injured. This stallion has sired relatively few offspring but I can tell you they are dead quiet & talented jumpers. I don't know if any will get to the upper levels.

Excellent stallions are available all over the US & all over the world.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Greenbean
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
I've only sat on 2 stallions in my entire life; one was a retired racehorse when I was a teenager in Alabama, the other was A Fine Romance this summer in Toronto. There is something markedly different about sitting on a stallion. Particularly if they like you! You get the feeling that they would take you anywhere, and that they are really working hard to "co-habitate" with you!

Robby

_ You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person. _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


haha what do you mean ONLY two stallions!? That's A LOT! I've only sat on two too! Yeah, there's definitely something different about sitting on them /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In response to some people's posts...to each their own I believe. I don't know if each stallion mentioned is better than any tamarack stallion....that is a bit of a crass remark, but if you feel that way then that's ok. I would like to see a picture of Aberjack's son if you wouldn't mind posting it!! Also, like I said before please don't get defensive but let's try to express our opinions in a tactful way...

Lisamarie8
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:27 AM
But I must pipe in on this...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rebecca:
These other stallions that you mention, Robby and Evalee and JER, etc. and that you like. What did they actually do in the ring or on the track?Were they themselves proven athletes at high levels like Loyal Pal and Aberjack? Just wondering why you keep knocking other stallions, if you have something to gain by that, or you`re just venting?

Did the people at Tamarack injure you in some way that makes you carry on so? Have any of you three actually visited that farm? Did they treat you in some terrible way when you went there? Were the stallions that you saw there so badly made or souch terrible movers that it offended you all so profoundly? You certainly can`t leave it alone, can you? Becca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy, killer /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I don't think ANYONE here has been attacking anyone or being petty. Opinions are what this board is all about and there has been not ONE inappropriate post on this thread...except perhaps for yours. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

JER
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:48 AM
rebecca, please stop with the accusations. If you've actually been reading this thread, I can't imagine why you keep saying these things. Your remarks certainly don't contribute to a thoughtful discussion of eventing stallions.

If you read my very first post, back on page 1, you'll see that I briefly noted Catherston Dazzler's accomplishments. A few posts later, I posted his web page. When I described some other English stallions available through one service, I gave the web page and again, briefly noted their records.

As for how you think I could be 'venting', I just don't get it. Loyal Pal has a fine race record but no sport horse background. Aberjack has competed in Advanced horse trials. Neither one is an appropriate match, IMO, for my mare, and if my breeding choice reflects any kind of bias, I hope it shows clearly that I'm interested in getting the best quality offspring from MY MARE. I can't chnage what she is, how she goes or what she looks like, so I pick the best stallion for her.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rebecca:
These other stallions that you mention, Robby and Evalee and JER, etc. and that you like. What did they actually do in the ring or on the track?Were they themselves proven athletes at high levels like Loyal Pal and Aberjack? Just wondering why you keep knocking other stallions, if you have something to gain by that, or you`re just venting?
Did the people at Tamarack injure you in some way that makes you carry on so? Have any of you three actually visited that farm? Did they treat you in some terrible way when you went there? Were the stallions that you saw there so badly made or souch terrible movers that it offended you all so profoundly? You certainly can`t leave it alone, can you? Becca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't visited Tamarack Hill Farm, nor did anyone there physically injure me.

As a business professional, accredited in my profession, I had a professional experience that left me with question and doubt. But as I said in a previous post, I am very quick to forgive and don't begrudge the operation for it.

I would certainly consider visiting the farm to stallion shop if I ever found myself in a position to breed a mare, and my personal stallion of choice wasn't available.

Tell me, are you involved with this operation, and what is the reason for your personal bias?

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

tle
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:32 AM
FWIW, I appreciate the discussion but would like to add that when I recently emailed Tamarack to inquire if they would consider helping me in deciding if one of their stallions would work better for my mare should I consider breeding her this spring (aka I would send them photos and video of my mare), I got a prompt and pleasant "absolutely we'll try to help" via email in response.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

HeyYouNags
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Evalee Hunter:

Another example would be Salute the Truth. Someone mentioned his awful video--well, I haven't seen the video but I have seen the stallion & he is nice. I don't know that he has sired any successful (upper level) offspring yet but he is out there doing prelim himself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Salute the Truth is competing at Intermediate now. I heard he won at Intermediate at a horse trial this summer. I *think* he was supposed to go Intermediate at Radnor.

My long yearling is from his second season at stud, so he doesn't have any offspring old enough to be in work yet.

I am pleased with my boy. I see quite a bit of his sire in him. He's a big (almost 16 hands already) goofy yearling, but very good natured.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:30 AM
He has "the eye!" That's what I was talking about. I loff it! It reminds me of an elephant's eye!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

bonfire
Oct. 15, 2002, 10:52 AM
The REAL problem we have been circling around on this long thread, but never have truly pinned down, is that America does NOT have any way of tracking horses by pedigree.So many breeders will tell you the EXACT same thing, that once those foals go out into the wide world, maybe get sold a couple of times, maybe get their names changed, there is no earthly way the breeder or the stallion owner to know what they are doing, or if they are even still alive. THAT is what fuels these kinds of dicussion/arguments, that there is no proof of what stallions produce, usually until after the stallion is old or dead (and often, not even then), like Bonne Nuit, or Cormac or The Hammer, or Frank Chapot`s great little Good Twist.
Maybe this new USAEq horse i.d. no. will help, because the way it is right now, some stallion might actually have a few really good horses out there, and I GUARANTEE you, no one will know it, not even the breeder.
America is decades behind many of the European horse breeding countries in this pedigree/performance link, which causes all this speculation, because we may shout all we like, but we don`t REALLY know.
Bonfire

tle
Oct. 15, 2002, 11:00 AM
Which brings us back to Denny Emerson and his initial involvement/endorsement in the Performance Horse Registry. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I know a performance database with pedigree information for TBs and half TBs was/is the goal of this registry.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

bonfire
Oct. 15, 2002, 11:08 AM
The PHR was way too narrow a concept, because it was tied to at least half tbs. A top event horse sire might be a full warmblood.I believe Galoubet has sired some Badminton horses, and he wouldn`t have been eligible under that old format. Our country needs some kind of much more INclusive registry.
Bonfire

Erin
Oct. 15, 2002, 11:22 AM
Well, now, IMHO, the PHR is too broad. I was psyched to register my OTTB with them... until I found out it was no longer restricted to TBs.

I think the USAEq horse ID number is going to be the all-inclusive source of sport horse breeding info. (At least, that was my impression... but maybe that's in concert with the PHR, since USAEq now owns that.)

At any rate, I do wish there was a sport horse org geared toward TBs.

tle
Oct. 15, 2002, 11:42 AM
Erin, I was under the impression that non-tbs could be "recorded" with PHR. Is that what you're talking about?

Never mind. I see what you're saying. YUCK!! I want a TB registry too!!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Erin
Oct. 15, 2002, 12:28 PM
I was going to add something about the PHR, but I think I'll just start a new thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gry2Yng
Oct. 15, 2002, 12:41 PM
Very nice Salute the Truth baby. I am the one who posted about his terrible video. In no way did I mean ANY disrespect to the horse. Just agreeing with the comment that Americans are very "TV" focused. You had to get past the production issues of the video and really try hard to compare the stallions and not the way the stallions were presented.

poltroon
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:13 PM
It's to the owner's advantage to try to keep the breeder apprised of their offspring's success - after all, there's a certain cachet to having a horse with notable ancestors - and you can help those ancestors become notable with your acheivements now! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rebecca
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:42 PM
Slightly off topic, but I was just told that a Mrs. Victoria Aksten is looking for a home for a mare by Babamist. Her phone number is 603-487-5009.
I don`t have any other details.
Becca

Erin
Oct. 15, 2002, 06:32 PM
Reminder... no advertising.

Rebecca, unless that mare is being offered free to a good home, it's advertising and should be taken down.

rebecca
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:23 PM
I think she`s either free, or a free lease.
Becca

bonfire
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:38 AM
Thanks, Mark Todd, for your letter about Aberjack and the Aberlou line(posted on the thread about Aberlou photos). It`s nice to get some straight talking about this horse, as there has been a great deal of speculation, and even criticism, often coming from people who had not even seen the horse.I`m afraid that may be an American trait, to think we`re all experts about everything! Would you ever consider coming to the states to do a clinic, one aspect of which might be a sport horse breeding seminar?
Bonfire

Bumpkin
Oct. 16, 2002, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonfire:
Thanks, Mark Todd, for your letter about Aberjack and the Aberlou line(posted on the thread about Aberlou photos). It`s nice to get some straight talking about this horse, as there has been a great deal of speculation, and even criticism, often coming from people who had not even seen the horse.I`m afraid that may be an American trait, to think we`re all experts about everything! Would you ever consider coming to the states to do a clinic, one aspect of which might be a sport horse breeding seminar?
Bonfire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carol Ames
Nov. 24, 2008, 11:51 PM
iI think Janets'sister has at least one!:lol:

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 25, 2008, 09:15 AM
iI think Janets'sister has at least one!:lol:

This thread is OVER SIX YEARS OLD. I don't even know if Aberjack is still at stud - & any foal conceived in 2003 would now be four going on five.

Badger
Nov. 25, 2008, 10:10 AM
This thread is OVER SIX YEARS OLD. I don't even know if Aberjack is still at stud - & any foal conceived in 2003 would now be four going on five.

My Aberjack daughter turned four in July. She was started under saddle at the end of July, cantered under saddle for the first time in mid-August, has hilltopped half-a-dozen times and done a touch of whipping-in, and this weekend schooled cross-country for the first time. Not bad for less than four months under saddle! Water, ditches, banks, she just "gets it." Great, self-confident mind, wonderful jump, I am having a wonderful time with her. We had a lead into the water jump the first time, and a lead the first time over the ditch, but that's it, no other leads. Otherwise I just pointed, asked, supported with my leg, and she figured out what was in front of her. We only had one stop (my fault, didn't give her a good approach) and that is it: schooled all the stadium jumps being used in an event clinic (I rode my prelim horse in the clinic and took the youngster along just to school outside the clinic) and many of the BN and N x-c jumps. She dropped off a 3' bank the first time perfectly, like she'd been doing if for a decade. Even jumped up and down a small bank in and out of water.

I'm darn glad I bred my mare to Aberjack in 2003 and am looking forward to a lot of fun with his daughter. She is not big, I don't think she'll see 16 hands, but she is substantial enough that I don't feel too big for her (5'11") and she has a great jump and plenty of scope. She makes good decisions, has good instincts, is athletic and wants to please.

And yes, Aberjack is still standing at stud. Denny's website says he is standing in Southern Pines in 2008. I know Laine Ashker has a gelding by Aberjack that she's been running prelim with, and I know he's had some get doing the YEH stuff. Here is a link to pics of Aberjack's get:

http://www.tamarackhill.com/FOALS/Aber-foals.htm

BFNE has an Aberjack, and Janet's sister has two. Would love to hear from them or others with updates.

Janet
Nov. 25, 2008, 10:17 AM
This thread is OVER SIX YEARS OLD. I don't even know if Aberjack is still at stud - & any foal conceived in 2003 would now be four going on five.
Yes, Gillian's two fillies by Aberjack out of Sportscar are 4 now.

What do you want to know about them.

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 25, 2008, 11:14 AM
This thread is OVER SIX YEARS OLD. I don't even know if Aberjack is still at stud - & any foal conceived in 2003 would now be four going on five.


yes he is still at stud. I have a mare that turned six this year (in July) out of a TB dam. She did one Prelim this fall and then had a minor injury which ended our season early. We will hopefully do a CCI* next year. Def. has the ability to do ** and perhaps farther (3'6" is very easy for her) She isn't the fanciest horse I own but she knows her job and is VERY uncomplicated to ride, especially over fences. That said, she is a bit down hill (where her siblings out of the same dam are not....but you never know what side of the family that came from). She is a nice enough mover and decent/good jumper...she becomes an even better jumper when I ride right! And she is a better jumper with bigger fences. She is the closest thing to an ammy ride that I own. She just *gets* it with jumping. You always feel like she understands the question and knows what to do. Aberjack did add bone and substance to the dam and shortened her top line....and passed on his head (which for this dam was a good thing:)). Unfortunately, she didn't get ubber fancy movement ....her siblings by different sires are extremely fancy movers (as in International caliber)....but her movement is nice enough for an event horse and she is simple enough to ride in dressage that she scores well and is (and will be) very competitive. There is no drama with her. Her personality I describe as a chain smoking biker chick (like her mama)....she's not a cuddly type ;) My mare is about 16.2 and built solid. She does have a touch of an attitude....but I KNOW that comes from the dam...and all her 1/2 siblings have a similar tude!

There is another 4/5 year old that I know out of an I'm A Star dam that has been winning a ton at training level....belongs to Courtney Cooper. Very nice young horse who certainly has the look of a potential top UL horse.

eventingfan
Nov. 25, 2008, 11:41 AM
Take the Mick, 4th in Training horse at the AEC this year is out of Aberjack.

PhoenixFarm
Nov. 25, 2008, 12:27 PM
I know someone that had two in the barn--full sisters. They were both as described in this thread--confident, unflappable, and just got it at the jumps. Nary a stop or a squirelly fence to be had. One of them, sadly, got injured in the field and the vet initially missed how serious the injury was. Infection set in, blah de blah, and so she's probably going to have to go be a broodmare. This person and one of her owners though so much of the pair, that they bought the other one to be developed as an UL prospect. My friend, the pro, says she is the easiest horse to train and ride she's ever dealt with--the only challenge is not doing too much too soon. These two mares were VERY fancy movers. I'm given to understand their Mom was quiet a lovely horse, and Jacko is certainly a lovely mover.

Evalee Hunter
Nov. 25, 2008, 02:10 PM
Yes, Gillian's two fillies by Aberjack out of Sportscar are 4 now.

What do you want to know about them.

I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING about any horses by Aberjack. As I pointed out, this thread was dredged up from who knows where & the person who originally asked the question (over 6 years ago) probably has their answer by now. I did NOT ask any questions about Aberjack, have never asked any questions about Aberjack as far as I remember.

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 25, 2008, 02:21 PM
I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING about any horses by Aberjack. As I pointed out, this thread was dredged up from who knows where & the person who originally asked the question (over 6 years ago) probably has their answer by now. I did NOT ask any questions about Aberjack, have never asked any questions about Aberjack as far as I remember.


No...by looking at what you posted years ago, I suspect you could care less. But one of the things about this thread...old as it may be...was questioning what he had produced (and you were one of the posters who was questioning that).

Well now, six years later, many of his offspring are old enough that we can actually evaluate what he has produced. And many of his offspring are doing quite well for their age in eventing. My mare would have been at Prelim sooner ....but she is stuck with my ammy ass and I took my time with her since she was young and a late baby (and running Prelim at 6 is still young as far as I'm concerned). My trainer liked her so much as well as others that she has seen eventing that she wanted to breed her TB broodmare to him as well. He is a good stallion just like there are many good stallions out there and now he has enough older offspring on the ground and competing that people can more easily evaluate whether he is a good choice for their mare.

Elliot
Nov. 25, 2008, 03:20 PM
I have a coming 6-year-old that I adore. It was actually Lauren Kieffer's Take The Mick that convinced me to look for one because he is such a lovely jumper.

My Aberjack got a late start, but he is an athletic jumper, a lovely mover and has the best attitude. Can you tell I'm a doting mom? I wish I could find another one! We tried to breed another one, but so far that hasn't worked out.

I will admit that my boy isn't so much to look at in the pasture, but as soon as he starts moving it's a whole different story.

Janet
Nov. 25, 2008, 04:05 PM
I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING about any horses by Aberjack. As I pointed out, this thread was dredged up from who knows where & the person who originally asked the question (over 6 years ago) probably has their answer by now. I did NOT ask any questions about Aberjack, have never asked any questions about Aberjack as far as I remember.
Not "you" singular.
"You" plural.

LAZ
Nov. 25, 2008, 04:22 PM
I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING about any horses by Aberjack. As I pointed out, this thread was dredged up from who knows where & the person who originally asked the question (over 6 years ago) probably has their answer by now. I did NOT ask any questions about Aberjack, have never asked any questions about Aberjack as far as I remember.

Evalee Hunter put on her grumpy pants this morning!

:D:lol:

On Second Thought
Nov. 25, 2008, 06:15 PM
Evalee Hunter put on her grumpy pants this morning!

:D:lol:

She takes them off?

flutie1
Nov. 25, 2008, 11:01 PM
Somebody needs a nap!

Carol Ames
Nov. 25, 2008, 11:33 PM
Summersong is the most incredible event horse I have EVER seen:yes:! Please please please post some pics of your foal.

hldyrhrses
Nov. 26, 2008, 09:39 PM
My trainer had an Aberjack baby. Unfortunately he had to be put down last year. He was constantly colicing. He had 2 surgeries and the "corrective" surgery that was supposed to prevent the cause. If I remember all the anatomy correctly, his intestines kept floating up and getting caught near his spleen (???) anyway, after the correcting surgery failed and he coliced again and was not recovering, the decision was made to put him down.

As for a horse, he was pretty friendly but a huge coward on XC. He HATED water and wasn't thrilled about XC in general. He was a lovely dressage mover and decent enough in stadium.

My trainer was trying to find him a better home for him that he could do something he liked better, but trying to find a good home for a horse that had two colic surgeries is not easy. He ended up colicing again with a student that had "adopted" him and the decision to put him down was made.

GAEventer
Nov. 29, 2008, 12:07 PM
I wanted to pipe in with my two cents about the Connie stallions mentioned. Go Bragh is a proven producer of event horses, both purebred and half-bred Connemaras. They do have the "edge" to compete at the upper levels, but I know a number of them, and they have all been amatuer friendly. He does tend to throw over pony height, so even on your small mare you may get something in the 15-15.1 hd range. Having seen a large number of his offspring, and not to discredit their abilities, there are some conformation flaws that I have seen repeatedly-ie crooked front legs. I've never seen these fault affect the horses' way of going, or jumping ability, but it's something to think about.

Someone else mentioned a "Sparrow" stallion-I'm guessing your speaking of *Grange Finn Sparrow, who is no longer breeding, but is still alive and well at 33 :) I own three of his offspring myself and they are PHENOMENAL movers and jumpers. It's hard to find one that an owner is willing to part with! He does have an unproven purebred son standing in Alabama. This particular bloodline is VERY preponent-all of them can JUMP.

Another up and coming PB Connemara eventing stallion, is the winner of this year's AEC Amatuer Training Division, *ArdCeltic Art. He's already made a successful move up to Prelim. His first foals are due in '09. He's and incredible mover, tidy jumper, and most importantly extremely sweet and quiet. I've had the opportunity to ride him myself, and he is so EASY. He's been shown by his Ammy owner, as well as her 14 y/o daughter.

Happy hunting!

rideforthelaurels16
Dec. 1, 2008, 02:28 PM
We have an Aberjack baby here at Windchase; he's 4 and out of Sirius, Phyllis's former Advanced mare. He's a cool horse but has quite a buck in him! Amazing jumper & mover, though, I love him.

Janet
Dec. 1, 2008, 04:18 PM
We have an Aberjack baby here at Windchase; he's 4 and out of Sirius, Phyllis's former Advanced mare. He's a cool horse but has quite a buck in him! Amazing jumper & mover, though, I love him.
Both of Gillian's are a bit "cold backed" too, though they seem to be growing out of it.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 1, 2008, 04:22 PM
Both of Gillian's are a bit "cold backed" too, though they seem to be growing out of it.


Mine too had a pretty good buck in her when she was started as a 3-4 year old....my friend started her and did a little more ground work with her than she normally has to because of her tendency to buck! I haven't seen it undersaddle since (she's six now)....but when I was rehabbing her, she did let go with a few good ones while being ponied! But other than her talent with a buck...she was not very difficult to start undersaddle.

LisaB
Dec. 1, 2008, 04:43 PM
I don't breed and don't intend to but here's a thought. I was at the Montpelier hunt races and was looking at the list of horses. They listed the dam and sire. I saw a few Reputed and Deputed Testimony horses out there. And boy, what a power ass! They've got a serious kick in gear in them! I've always liked their get. Anyway, why not pick on the steeplechase people and look at their records? They kind of need the same longevity and gallop that we do. Granted they don't need rideable :D But it's a start if you want to stick with the full tb.

Badger
Dec. 1, 2008, 05:12 PM
Mine too had a pretty good buck in her when she was started as a 3-4 year old....my friend started her and did a little more ground work with her than she normally has to because of her tendency to buck! I haven't seen it undersaddle since (she's six now)....but when I was rehabbing her, she did let go with a few good ones while being ponied! But other than her talent with a buck...she was not very difficult to start undersaddle.

When we started tacking her up, mine was quite girthy and could SERIOUSLY buck, so she ended up getting extra groundwork to address that. Only after it was address from the ground did she get started under saddle and she hasn't bucked with a rider (she has humped her back about 4 or 5 times but that's it). And I want to thank Janet for putting me in touch with her sister for some advice on that girthyness issue.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 1, 2008, 05:17 PM
When we started tacking her up, mine was quite girthy and could SERIOUSLY buck, so she ended up getting extra groundwork to address that. Only after it was address from the ground did she get started under saddle and she hasn't bucked with a rider (she has humped her back about 4 or 5 times but that's it). And I want to thank Janet for putting me in touch with her sister for some advice on that girthyness issue.


yup...that about describes my girl as well. It def. goes away with proper work. As I said, I've only even seen the buck again when she was coming back into work after extended stall rest.....and if they don't buck in that situation, I start to think something is very wrong with them!:lol: I knew she wanted to buck so I gave her the opportunity in a controlled situation without a rider! After that...she was super easy to re-hab.

Badger
Dec. 1, 2008, 05:34 PM
When I was researching Aberjack before I made my breeding decision, I read (maybe in Blyth Tait's book?) that both of his Aberlou mares Messiah (Olympic medalist) and Delta (2nd at Badminton) had a buck. I do think it's likely that this is part of the line. However, bucking ability and jumping ability often go hand in hand. As long as she does it when at play and not when at work, it's fine by me.

BAC
Dec. 1, 2008, 06:07 PM
Here's a link to Catherston Dazzler's page (http://www.catherstonstud.net/Stud%20Book%20-%20Dazzler.htm). Another excellent US-based event sire was the late 'Hanoverian' (a 7/8ths TB, actually) stallion Lanthan. Passed on his athleticism and his great mind.

Catherston Stud has a long history in the UK, the Bullen family (now Jennie Loriston Clarke and Jane Holderness-Roddam) was breeding horses as far back as the early 1960s and probably even earlier. I still have a book from the 1960s with Jane Bullen on their homebred Prosperity of Catherston, a gorgeous show pony. There was a brother too, can't remember his name, he and Jane were avid eventers, Jennie was more interested in dressage.

alwynne hellfach
Dec. 7, 2008, 09:45 PM
I for one found Jack when looking at stallions for someone else, I was so impressed that 4 years later I breed a mare Jessica Moore had. He is an fanominial (sp) mover and I love my coming 6 yr mare. Jackie is a BRAVE XC horse with lovely movement, rythum,tempo! I also have a coming 6 yr gelding by Test, out of a grade Tb mare that I have. As a 2nd generation breeder I know that 65 % to 85% comes from the mare, so you had better like your mare.
Both of these young horses have been nothing but wonderful, their temperment, movement and bravado out and about is the best. Their conformation is very good, the only negaive thing is that Aberjsck is a bit long pasterned (adds to his movement)and it came thru with on the filly, other than that both are very nice.
My 2008 foal crop (colt and a filly) are both by a wonderful young stallion (Canadian Wmbld) grandson of Romer. One dam is a half sister to the Reputed colt (3/4 Tb) and the other dam is a wonderfully bred Tb. Both are very nice but the mare with LOTs of black type droped the best colt I have seen in years. Definitly should be kept whole.
I have this real sick need to look at stallions and their get, so throughout the last 30 years I have probably looked at a thousand stallions and their get. I think that in my area (New England) Denny is one of the most knowledgeable breeders of event horses, I know there are others but I think that he is very good. I also find his honesty and plain speaking very refreshing.

rerponies
Mar. 27, 2009, 12:40 AM
I am wondering about Aberjacks virus that ended his career? I have found very few articles about this online, it just states that this virus has continued to surface within his system therefore ending his career. Could this be transfered to his get? Does anyone know what the virus was and has anyone had any issues with the Aberjack babies and reoccuring illness? This article talks about the illness but never stated what is was?
http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/aberlou/aberlou.html

Robby Johnson
Mar. 27, 2009, 12:55 AM
When I was researching Aberjack before I made my breeding decision, I read (maybe in Blyth Tait's book?) that both of his Aberlou mares Messiah (Olympic medalist) and Delta (2nd at Badminton) had a buck. I do think it's likely that this is part of the line. However, bucking ability and jumping ability often go hand in hand. As long as she does it when at play and not when at work, it's fine by me.

I'm pretty sure Messiah was a gelding.

denny
Mar. 27, 2009, 08:31 AM
No, the virus Aberjack got was from an IV in his juglar to transmit fluids, during a relatively minor colic. The injection site got infected, and got so bad that the vein was blocked.
It is not a transmittable thing in any way.

He`s is absolutely going to be one of those sport horse stallions who gets very popular in his old age, as his foals that I`m seeing are quite spectacular, one after another.

There were 3 of them at So Pines last Sat, big, scopey, great gallopers, and beautiful.

Bekki Read`s Abracadabra, in Vermont, is one of the nicest young event horses around, and we have one 4 year old mare by him, out of an Irish mare, who jumped our entire maiden xc course on her first xc school.

Sue Bruns just sent me a photo of him from U-Mass yesterday, where he`s being a student grooming project (as well as stallion), and he looks fabulous.
I`ll see if I can get some technologically savvy person to post it, as I`m stone-age.

denny
Mar. 27, 2009, 08:50 AM
Here`s the photo (I hope) of Aberjack from a couple of days ago.

Badger
Mar. 27, 2009, 09:03 AM
I'm pretty sure Messiah was a gelding.

Yep. I just looked in his book and Messiah is, indeed, a gelding. Good catch.

Badger
Mar. 27, 2009, 09:12 AM
Thanks for posting that, Denny. He looks great. And boy, can I see him in his daughter! When I saw him in person, I thought he had one of the strongest loins I'd seen, really strong through the back, and she's got that. And a powerful engine. But my favorite thing about my Aberjack daughter is her wonderful, people-pleasing, quietly confidant "I can do that!" attitude.

ZEBE
Mar. 27, 2009, 09:26 AM
Hi Denny,

Are you still "collecting" for Aberjack-- or do we contact U Mass? What is the contact info?

Our Plan A for breeding fell through and we are still deciding on a stallion.

thanks,

Barbara C-K

horserider12
Mar. 27, 2009, 09:55 AM
"This is a true breeding PROGRAM, which is not so easy to find in this country". that bred their stallion to "an unbelieveably hideous mare"??????

Groro
Mar. 29, 2009, 07:43 PM
Aberjack is a good looking stallion. Thanks , Denny, for posting the photo.

Has anyone actually taken a hard look at the Rolex horses at the last jog? Most are not what you would pick in a FEH or YEH class. Most of them look like spare parts from several different horses. Their heart, soundness, talent and their riders' training have gotten them to a 4 *.

The stallion you pick should be prepotent for the qualities you are picking. Many a time a gorgeous, talented stallion cannot reproduce himself or produce what is wanted.

I personally am sticking with the Holsteiner for my stallion pick. Top eventers, top jumpers, good movers, sound and there is always a good market for them.

I did just make a deal on four Aberjack yearling grand babies, so we will see what happens.

purplnurpl
Mar. 30, 2009, 11:11 AM
I stopped reading at page 4. But here is what I like.


Denny has the Coolman baby in partnership with the Pollard's (I think).
http://www.fermebeaulieufarm.com/id97.htm

If I had a mare I'd breed to Coolman. Or wait for Skybreaker.
scroll down just a bit for the pic of Skybreaker in the water.
http://www.fermebeaulieufarm.com/home.htm

I wish I had Boomer's sister. She's just down the way in McKinney doing nothing but being big beautiful and fat in the pasture. What a shame and waste. The best animal I will have ever sat on, hands down.

Reputed Testimony was always one of my favs.

rerponies
Apr. 14, 2009, 11:21 PM
Thank you for the clarification on this virus. The articles Ive found online have been very vague.

ThirdCharm
Apr. 15, 2009, 05:49 PM
Haven't read the whole thread yet... but....

I "know" one Loyal Pal colt, and he's competed through Intermediate, name of Paladin ridden by Chris Hitchcock. Lovely animal.

Oh and Loyal Legacy who I saw at a FEH competition. Don't think he's old enough to have competed yet...

I saw a horse named Aberjoy compete Prelim with Boyd.... I think that is an Aberjack baby. Very nice horse....

Not sure if he was bred in the USA like JER's foal, but Courtney Cooper has a Catherston Dazzler colt competing Training... Star Dazzler. I've got two mares I'm breeding to Dazzler, yay!

I have no problem with going overseas obviously, but the main reason I'm breeding to Dazzler this year is the limited availability.... I have USA based stallions (including at least one of Denny's) picked out for upcoming years..... I am a great admirer of Denny's program, not the least of which is because he is very aware of his stallion's strengths etc., and suggested a non-THF European WB stallion for a particular mare....

Jennifer

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 15, 2009, 06:44 PM
I saw a horse named Aberjoy compete Prelim with Boyd.... I think that is an Aberjack baby. Very nice horse....

Not sure if he was bred in the USA like JER's foal, but Courtney Cooper has a Catherston Dazzler colt competing Training... Star Dazzler. I've got two mares I'm breeding to Dazzler, yay!




Aberjoy is my mare...turning 7 in July. That was her 2nd Prelim....she was a very good girl and ended up 4th in a pretty competitive division (From was 2nd...she was less than a rail away from beating him!). But better and more important than the ribbon was how well she did xc....it just looked very easy for her. I'm having Boyd put some good prelim experiences on her....then she will be better able to pack my sorry a$$ around.;) He will hopefully take her to her first CCI* in June and then either he or I will aim her for a classic CCI* this fall (shhhh...don't let her know). I think that you will see quite a few Aberjack babies competing at the CCI* and ** level in the very near future.

Courtney bred Star Dazzler her self...here in the US. He is out of her I'm A Star mare. Pretty darn nice pedigree for an event horse!

denny
Apr. 15, 2009, 07:04 PM
I have my nice mare Jetting West at U-Mass right now, to be bred to Jacko. She`s 15, so I hope I haven`t waited too long, but she kept competing so well, I didn`t want to stop.

Aberjack`s babies are really starting to rev up, now that he`s 19. So typical of sport horse stallions, the foals only start to hit once the sire is old.

It`s so much different with race babies, a stallion can be 7 and already have runners.

TB or not TB?
Apr. 15, 2009, 07:36 PM
Wow, Aberjack looks great!! Nothing better than seeing a happy guy enjoying his life.

BFNE, any pix of your mare? It sounds like she's spectacular! I wish you absolute success in your plans. :)

luckyducky1983
Apr. 15, 2009, 10:53 PM
Courtney bred Star Dazzler her self...here in the US. He is out of her I'm A Star mare. Pretty darn nice pedigree for an event horse!

Courtney also has a very nice 6 year old going preliminary now that is out of the same mare (I'm A Star) and is also by Aberjack. Who's A Star was the first colt from I'm A Star, and is Star Dazzler's older brother.

For those looking at "Aberjack Baby Types" There's a video of the Who's A Star horse going XC (Training) here: http://www.csquarefarm.com/event_team/horses/whos_a_star.htm

Video link is at the bottom.

He's such a lovely type to watch go, and I love his dressage too --- definitely makes me want an Aberjack baby....

JER
Apr. 16, 2009, 03:25 PM
That's a really nice photo of Aberjack, denny. Thanks for posting it.



Not sure if he was bred in the USA like JER's foal, but Courtney Cooper has a Catherston Dazzler colt competing Training... Star Dazzler. I've got two mares I'm breeding to Dazzler, yay!

My Catherston Dazzler mare, who is now 7, is doing her first Prelim this weekend (I'm hoping it goes well :)).

Badger
Apr. 17, 2009, 08:51 PM
How much breeding did Aberjack do in the UK? Any idea of how his kids are doing?

I found one through google, Aberjet has been competing at Intermediate:
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=65305&section=000100010002

If there is a way to search for get of sire through the BE site?

ThirdCharm
Apr. 17, 2009, 09:23 PM
That's a really nice photo of Aberjack, denny. Thanks for posting it.



My Catherston Dazzler mare, who is now 7, is doing her first Prelim this weekend (I'm hoping
it goes well :)).

Cool! What does she show under, what show will she be at? Everyone around here is at Longleaf.....?

Jennifer

JER
Apr. 17, 2009, 09:29 PM
Cool! What does she show under, what show will she be at? Everyone around here is at Longleaf.....?


She's at River Glen this weekend.

This is my mare at Poplar (http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/ThumbPage.aspx?e=4652277&g=0BEF007H51) a few weeks ago.

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 17, 2009, 09:51 PM
BFNE, any pix of your mare? It sounds like she's spectacular! I wish you absolute success in your plans. :)


These are her from last weekend. Footing was pretty deep....very deep in stadium (as in everyone was using massive studs and they were pulling people INto the trailer parking with tractors...as well as pulling out). I still am cleaning up the mud.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/ViewAlbum.aspx?a=586284

TB or not TB?
Apr. 17, 2009, 09:55 PM
Wow, they both look fantastic!!! Aberjack really seems to stamp his offspring. Good luck!

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 17, 2009, 10:00 PM
Wow, they both look fantastic!!! Aberjack really seems to stamp his offspring. Good luck!

Thank goodness....cause Joy's mama didn't have the prettiest head!:D

Janet
Apr. 17, 2009, 10:57 PM
She's at River Glen this weekend.

This is my mare at Poplar (http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/ThumbPage.aspx?e=4652277&g=0BEF007H51) a few weeks ago.
What is her name? I am apprenticing at River Glen.

Janet
Apr. 17, 2009, 10:58 PM
I think that Gillian's two Aberjack x Sportscar daughters will be at Redlands (Dirt Bike and Motocross)

JER
Apr. 17, 2009, 11:06 PM
What is her name? I am apprenticing at River Glen.

Dekorum. Michael Pollard is riding.

But just to clarify, she is not by Aberjack! She's by Catherston Dazzler. (This is a stallion who really stamps his offspring. They all look alike.)

(BTW, my mare's half-sister -- same TB dam -- by Heroicity is going to be the token TB at the Rolex FEH Demo. :))

TB or not TB?
Apr. 18, 2009, 12:05 AM
Dekorum. Michael Pollard is riding.

But just to clarify, she is not by Aberjack! She's by Catherston Dazzler. (This is a stallion who really stamps his offspring. They all look alike.)

(BTW, my mare's half-sister -- same TB dam -- by Heroicity is going to be the token TB at the Rolex FEH Demo. :))

Oh just kidding!! That's what I get for posting while watching TV! :lol: She is lovely.

ThirdCharm
Apr. 18, 2009, 11:46 PM
Oh, the mare that Andrea Leatherman rode! Lovely lovely horse.

Jennifer

Moderator 1
Apr. 19, 2009, 07:45 PM
A reminder: no links to/specifics about horses available for sale, regardless of who owns them. We removed a couple of posts.

Thanks!
Mod 1

denny
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:14 PM
Has David un-retired? He seems to have won a novice division at the Florida event yesterday on an Aberjack baby.

sassparella
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:29 PM
DOC's become a smurf... he's been competing Crackerjack in Ocala this winter.

JER
Apr. 20, 2009, 03:00 PM
Oh, the mare that Andrea Leatherman rode! Lovely lovely horse.

So she did her first Prelim this weekend at River Glen....

...and won! :D

(She's also a really sweet-tempered mare. I know for a fact she didn't get this from her mother...)

Janet
Apr. 20, 2009, 03:33 PM
So she did her first Prelim this weekend at River Glen....

...and won! :D

(She's also a really sweet-tempered mare. I know for a fact she didn't get this from her mother...)
What I saw of her looked great!

Badger
Apr. 27, 2009, 12:13 PM
We finally had a break in the weather and I got to school my Aberjack daughter x-c. This was only her second time on x-c course (the other time was last November) and she was SO quiet and fun. A couple pics:


http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs014.snc1/2942_1065545601399_1308808694_30222278_2886886_n.j pg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs014.snc1/2942_1065545681401_1308808694_30222280_5633464_n.j pg

JER
Apr. 27, 2009, 12:29 PM
Very cute mare. She looks like a lot of fun.

(Nice round barrel too -- I like the ones who are just as comfortable bareback. :))

Badger
Apr. 27, 2009, 07:11 PM
Thanks. That barrel is a blessing because it takes up my 5'11" leg and it lets the saddles I got for her 17 hand warmblood half-bro fit her.