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VTrider
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:45 AM
I think the US is so blessed to have such amazing Equitation horses. I mean Grappa may be the most amazing horse (hunter/jumper/polo/reining, etc.) that we have in our country.

I am interested in knowing what roundabout lease fees for leasing an eq. horse for a season are. I know that some horses are also leased per show. I do not want to know specific names and numbers, as that is none of my business. But are lease fees on eq. horses more than say Junior Jumpers or Junior Hunters (ponies or horses). Eq. horses obviously have to be able to do 100times more things than a hunter or jumper.

Any ideas?

VTrider
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:45 AM
I think the US is so blessed to have such amazing Equitation horses. I mean Grappa may be the most amazing horse (hunter/jumper/polo/reining, etc.) that we have in our country.

I am interested in knowing what roundabout lease fees for leasing an eq. horse for a season are. I know that some horses are also leased per show. I do not want to know specific names and numbers, as that is none of my business. But are lease fees on eq. horses more than say Junior Jumpers or Junior Hunters (ponies or horses). Eq. horses obviously have to be able to do 100times more things than a hunter or jumper.

Any ideas?

Applesauce
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:47 AM
That a certain eq horse was leased for $5,000 PER DAY at the medal finals 2 years ago. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

Flashy Gray
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately, I can't answer it AT ALL. But I too am deathly curious as to the cost for a long-term lease on a top eq horse.

Like VT, no names, not trying to be tacky /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif by musing on other's finances, but if I know leasing rates for the top rock star horses, perhaps I can figure out what little old moi could afford. Someday /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wicky
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:55 AM
Standard lease fees for a year are 1 about 1/3 the fair market value of the horse. That takes care of the difference in "value" between disciplines.

So, a $100,000 horse would cost you about $33,000 per year (plus all of your usual expenses) - youch!

Flashy Gray
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:58 AM
OK, you figure $5K per day at the Finals - would that include any time with the horse prior to the finals? Just to have the horse for a few days to flat beforehand, no jumping? Obviously an eq. horse of that caliber doesn't need to be jumped beforehand.

At least I assume that when you "do" the big eq. finals classes you are looking at 3 days for prepping - or can a really talented rider like Maggie meet a really talented horse like Grappa the day of the class and hop on, work out the kinks in the schooling ring, and go out and shine like she consistently does?

Heineken
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:58 AM
I have a very well-schooled three foot eq horse and I was told that I could EASILY lease him for 1/3 his price, so I guess 1/3 is the going rate no matter what.

Aqha Clique

b328
Oct. 14, 2002, 10:09 AM
About 10 years ago, a friend of mine leased a not so famous, but good, eq horse for finals at $1000/ day. Her horse went unexpectedly lame right before finals, and that was all she could find at the last minute. I wouldn't be shocked at all to hear that a horse like Grappa goes for more than $5000 per day for finals.

Sunday
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:00 AM
2 years ago I heard $1000 - $2000 for some Ariat Finalists to lease eq horses. That included a couple of rides the week of the finals.

Scarlet 1
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:04 AM
You would fall over, if you heard the number that I heard. Way way way out of the ball park, with the numbers that have been guessed so far!

InWhyCee
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:34 AM
Yes, the Big EQ really is all about uncovering our best horsemen and hardest-working, most talented riders.

That said, I am going to "hurl" now, anyone care to join me?
_____________

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

VTrider
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:37 AM
If I paid a large chunk of change to lease a horse - it would be GAURANTEED that I would chip the first jump of the first round. LOL!

ken
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:40 AM
InWhyCee, I'm with ya sista. I was about to say the same thing. I was at the finals & saw most of the rounds.......I saw many damn good effective riders have not so nice rounds & I saw many pretty riders have pretty rounds.

I'm not knocking the winner because she had nice trips, but I give more props to many of the other riders who had not so nice trips.

I say if you're really judging horsemanship, then have the riders break, train & show their own horse!

b328
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:47 AM
In my opinion, no matter how good the horse, the rider still has to get out there with a plan and ride effectively. I don't think having a great horse means you are a shoe-in to win, it just gives an already good rider an edge. If a football team makes it to the superbowl, are they going to play the second string? No, they'll put the first string out there. I would hazard a guess that the people who are winning these eqs really are effective riders. Look how many cross over to GPs, hunters, etc and continue to be successful. I don't think they could do that if they were just posing.

GeddiupGirl
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:49 AM
At the beginning of the show year most people set up a schedule to meet their Eq horses at certain shows. But the better the horse, and the later you wait to schedule what shows you are going to do with it...the more you pay! But being able to even lease a super-star to do only a few shows is well worth it!

Just My Size
Wintarra Ring
Tazz
Calvin
Macallan

BB
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:49 AM
I agree! I always like competitions (such as the final round of the WEG) that require riders to change horses. I think that can be a great way to test someone's abilities as a rider. It makes it more about horsemanship and less about looking pretty on an eq horse.

G
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:53 AM
I have heard rumors of a certain big name eq horse being leased for $10,000 a show. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

-Jackie-
"Take what you can from your dreams, make them as real as anything." -Dave-
http://hometown.aol.com/jaxisback

McLeanHunterRider
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:54 AM
honestly, i think that at every major eq class they should make it MANDATORY for riders to change horses... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"DELIVERY!!! did you order a boumb? a BOUMB?!?! AHHHHHH"- Revenge of the Pink Panther

MKM
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:55 AM
does anyone have a picture of grappa? VT, what is so amazing about this horse? I'm not saying that sarcastically, seriously, what is it? Is he the grey one with Maggie on TH site right now?

Flashy Gray
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:57 AM
I can't even think about the millions of ways I would screw up this beautiful horse. I keep picturing Grappa giving me "the hoof" or at the very least the International "L" sign for Loser.

But wait, he couldn't do the "L" sign. He has no thumbs /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And to repeat my earlier post, this thread was intended as a realistic discussion about the costs of leasing a top level horse, and how those leasing contracts work. I think we can all agree that it costs a large sum of money to compete at the top national levels.

Professional football teams are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but I don't see anyone bemoaning the fact that little pee wee kids who play flag football can't "afford" to play at Fedex field.

BB
Oct. 14, 2002, 12:00 PM
$10,000 a show?!?!?!? Maybe I should quit my day job and train eq horses /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flashy Gray
Oct. 14, 2002, 12:01 PM
with a white star. There is a lovely picture of he and Maggie Jayne winning at Devon in the COTH Devon results article from earlier this year.

b328
Oct. 14, 2002, 12:06 PM
I am curious too, as it has been a long time since I have seen one of the top eq horses go. Can someone explain how Grappa goes that makes him great? I am just curious. I have only seen a few top eq horses go, and it has been a long time.

Applesauce
Oct. 14, 2002, 12:13 PM
The $5,000 per day includes schooling before the rounds. So, how much schooling you need depends on how many days you wind up leasing the horse.

I think BB has the right idea. Let's train eq horses!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Grappa is a big bay horse. I believe that Missy Clark ownes him but I may be wrong.

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

InWhyCee
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:03 PM
I'd like to see each finalist presented with a dirty schoolhorse that they would then have to groom, tack, and ride, with no assistance from BNT, Groom, or even Daddy.

At the very least, each rider should be required to show the horse they qualified on, and switching mounts should be MANDATORY. Maybe then I'd consider resigning from the BEQS Clique. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
_______________

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

FairWeather
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:09 PM
here's a pic of Grappa--not the most fabulous pic, but you get the idea.

Little surprises around every corner, but nothing dangerous!
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

ken
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:14 PM
InWhyCee, I like your sense of humor!!! I saw 1 girl who had 2 grooms- - one for the front end & 1 for the back end! no lie!!! and she just sat there, no thank you or anything.

There was 1 girl who had my vote-I think it was her sister who was traning her- - anyway, before they went in, the trainer pinched the riders leg & kissed the horse's nose & that was it.

BB
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:23 PM
InWhySee-- you forgot one crucial element: they have to actually catch the dirty school horse out in the pasture first!

RedEqHunter
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:29 PM
That sounds good to me InWhyCee!

"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun."

Jamie Taylor
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:48 PM
A nice horse from a BNT, will usually be about $50,000 a year....or more. For a show usually $2500 for a decent eq horse, PLUS all expenses which turns into close to $5000...For a horse like Grappa I wouldnt be surprised to pay closer to 10,000 for a show or a TON for the year, although he doesnt show much, so I'm assuming that anyone who rides him would pay by show...And also, Missy doesn't own him, I believe Sarah Willeman does...

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

DMK
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:49 PM
now, now, to be fair, "eq" is only judging the equitation skills of the rider... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But wouldn't it be nice if the class with the most cache was a class that involved how well a rider rode, as well as the quality of horsemanship involved? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

VTrider
Oct. 14, 2002, 01:58 PM
courtesy of bigeq.com - Eq. results for all major classes for the past 15 years.

http://www.bigeq.com/eqresults/36finals.html

InWhyCee
Oct. 14, 2002, 02:52 PM
Okay. I am convinced. Charge A Count is the best EQ rider of all time. If only he could tack himself and come to the arena when called! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
_______

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

~SC~
Oct. 14, 2002, 03:41 PM
The really *nice* Eq horses that get saved for the Finals and are consistently in the ribbons can go anywhere from $25,000-$50,000 PER SHOW. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Absolutely insane...but these horses are worth their weight in gold.

Ohter good/"decent" Eq horse are less. One horse that we looked at was around $30,000 for all of Indoors. It really depends what BNT you go to, how much experience the horse has, etc..

~Sarah~

~*Southern Comfort*~

Applesauce
Oct. 14, 2002, 03:45 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Can anyone remember a top 5 finalist from the recent years that wasn't well off and pretty much was an "underdog"?

It's sad to me, but a hard truth that while the finalists may be talented, you need lots of $$$$$ to get to the top. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

Flashy Gray
Oct. 14, 2002, 03:48 PM
a lease cost being 1/3 of the animal's purchase price that was mentioned earlier by Heineken and others.

Thanks to Southern Comfort, Jaime and others for clarifying how these leases work.

InWhyCee
Oct. 14, 2002, 04:13 PM
I had to ask, because it seems highly likely that the Medal/Maclay are bought more than they are won. Why the continuing fascination?
_______

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

MHM
Oct. 14, 2002, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But wouldn't it be nice if the class with the most cache was a class that involved how well a rider rode, as well as the quality of horsemanship involved? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like the New England Finals, an event that Joe Dotoli started which includes (I believe) a written test and a hands-on horsemanship practical, as well as a regular class over jumps. They pin each phase, then combine the scores to get the overall winner.

[This message was edited by MHM on Oct. 14, 2002 at 06:50 PM.]

findeight
Oct. 14, 2002, 04:39 PM
I think some are being unfair to these top riders.

They usually ride everything in the trainer's barn from piece of crap, dirty stopping ponies to sale horses that nobody knows anything about to dead green imports right off the plane to prep for these medal finals. Many are trainers kids who don't ever own a decent horse, if it is good it sells out from under them.

Face it, I could get on Grappa in the Ariat and lose easily. You have to be able to ride it even with the money to buy/lease it. I suspect at times something is worked out to allow the truely talented access to these wonderful horses.

What makes them so good? try a hand gallop to an oxer...roll back to a 4 stride line, jump in and halt, pivot on the haunches and jump back out over the vertcal, counter canter the corner to another fence......They know it all. But the rider must stay focused, organized and RIDE.


Lets not automatically dislike those who have access to these horses and win. Most have paid their dues and many will continue to do so as pros.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Chef Jade
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:06 PM
I know a certain Eq horse was leased for over $80k per year, and this was about 8 years ago. He would probably go for more, now!

I friend of mine leased a horse for $5000 for the Medal Finals. She spent another $5000 on training, flights, entries, etc. Her horse stopped 3 times at the first fence! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Come and visit the horses at: http://www.crosscreek.tk

Backstage
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:07 PM
Thank you Findeight!
I don't do much H/J and I stay away from Eq /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif However, while many eq finalist may very well be blessed with some funds to help out, they are by no means incompetent. I, like, findeight am pretty sure that I could manage to find a way to finish last, even with a 50,000 eq horse.

In the future, if your wondering, 'Crime, boy...' is when I decided to kick your ass. - President Bartlett, The West Wing

tyedyecommando
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:08 PM
I would be interested to see how many people rode their "own" horses. I hear countless stories about how someone went to indoors and "had" to lease an equatation horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Perhaps a better test for these riders would be schooling their own horses over the year rather than paying the top bucks for getting to ride a very made proven horse. There are going to have to be some new made horses coming around since Grappa, Ivy and the like are only going to last so long.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it.
Jack Handy

findeight
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:11 PM
Let's not forget that Maggie won the Midwest Regional Maclay a few hours after she won the GP...and nobody accused her of buying one of only 2 clear first rounds.
Believe it or not there are many of these big eq riders that DON'T own a horse. They lease or ride whatever.

Congrats to her and her pony tail.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

2Dogs
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:18 PM
Ahhh, Chef, I was around 5 years ago (CA)when a FNT leased her super dooper eq horse to rider x for $250,000 for the year. The horse was very cool - once again, if there is a market for it, it happens. Yowzer is all I can say....

Flash44
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:38 PM
Wow. Wow wow wow wow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Flash44
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:49 PM
I need to print this out for the people that are leasing my horse this year!!!

Cruising
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:52 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
And I still think $250k is an unbelieveable price to PAY for a horse, much less to LEASE one! Wow...thats crazzzzzzzyyyyyy.

* B E L E N *
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khobstetter
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:53 PM
2 years ago Karen Healey needed an Eq horse for the California USET and AHSA finals for one of her riders (Elizabeth something). We had just imported a beautiful grey jumper/Eq horse from Europe and they paid $3500.00 for USET finals for the week and then an additional $1500.00 for the one day of the AHSA finals.

Did she win???? No, BUT she got to compete and was VERY presentable. She was 9th out of about 60 after the first phase (Gymnastics) and ended up about 1/3 the way down the group for the final day. She jumped the banks, the open water and the "technical" combinations quite well.

That Finals at LAEC are pretty demanding and I really thought she did an EXCELLENT job "catch riding" a strange horse at the Finals.

No matter how nice the horse, the juniors still have to be able to get the ride done. YES YES YES it is sooooooooooooo much easier on a "made" EQ horse but it still takes the ride.

That said, if we got that much for a week here in the West for a "local" Finals.... the East Coast must really get a huge fee for the more important ones. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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Alex Pakzad
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Southern Comfort~:
The really *nice* Eq horses that get saved for the Finals and are consistently in the ribbons can go anywhere from $25,000-$50,000 PER SHOW. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Absolutely insane...but these horses are worth their weight in gold.

~Sarah~

~*Southern Comfort*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now, lets not get carried away... I know for a FACT that even the nicest equiation horses don't go for 25k-50k per show. That is just insane. Good thing it isn't true /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

adhock
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:14 PM
Sometimes leasing makes good sense and sometimes trainers and owners are very generous. Last year, my daughter's horse got sick just before a big California medal final and she was loaned a horse (never rode it before) and won the class. This year, we couldn't afford to ship our eq horse from CA to the East Coast for a few classes at Indoors--the cost can be well over $30,000 per horse when you factor in flight, grooming, stabling, transportation, layover care, training, etc. (and that's just for the horse). At the last minute, my daughter was given a chance to ride a young and fairly inexperienced horse at Capital Challenge (good experience for both child and horse) during the equitation weekend and NHJC final and then a trainer offered her a very reasonable and fair price on a lease for another medal final in exchange for her doing some extra riding of sale horses--nothing like the $ mentioned above. The leased horse was terrific, she had a really positive experience, and she learned a ton. All in all, everyone came out a winner and, while she would have given anything to have ridden her own horse, my daughter was thrilled that she was able to ride a lot of different horses, got to show in two medal finals, and met a number of lovely and generous people.

Duffy
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:20 PM
That is wonderful, Adhock! Congrats to you and your daughter. She obviously deserved the chance to ride those horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I can justify anything!"

PromQueen
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:29 PM
Do you think Missy (or Sarah Willeman) would lease out Grappa, or any other eq horse for that matter, to any old talented rider, even if he/she were able to afford the fees? Granted Grappa remains with Missy and you would have to train with her, or do you think, as Findeight suggested, that only those special juniors get an arrangement like that?

I read somewhere that Maggie said she was leasing Grappa because she wanted to finally ride a "made" horse, not because she wanted the advantage......and if you believe that, I have some swampland...... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

touchstone-
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:37 PM
Maggie Jayne won the regional finals on *her* horse that she did train right from the beginning. She has made her name riding green and sale horses, even at the big shows and indoors before this year.

Molly99
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Pakzad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Southern Comfort~:
The really *nice* Eq horses that get saved for the Finals and are consistently in the ribbons can go anywhere from $25,000-$50,000 PER SHOW. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Absolutely insane...but these horses are worth their weight in gold.

~Sarah~

~*Southern Comfort*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now, lets not get carried away... I know for a FACT that even the nicest equiation horses don't go for 25k-50k per show. That is just insane. Good thing it isn't true /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alex, Unless you know the lease price of EVERY SINGLE Eq horse for the past few years, you do not know for a FACT that amount is not true.

Sadly it is. There have been quite a few kids in the past few years that had multiple horses on standby, just in case. The amounts they were willing to spend amazed me. Did they win, no, but they had "the" horse to fall back on, just in case their normal was was not "on" that morning.

Molly99
Oct. 14, 2002, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PromQueen:
Do you think Missy (or Sarah Willeman) would lease out Grappa, or any other eq horse for that matter, to any old talented rider, even if he/she were able to afford the fees? Granted Grappa remains with Missy and you would have to train with her, or do you think, as Findeight suggested, that only those special juniors get an arrangement like that?

I read somewhere that Maggie said she was leasing Grappa because she wanted to finally ride a "made" horse, not because she wanted the advantage......and if you believe that, I have some swampland...... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe Grappa is only available to "certain" riders. Last year, Brian Walker got him, this year Maggie.

He is getting up there and cannot do every single week, nor should he.

Maggie does deserve the change to ride a "made" horse. She has ridden "her" horses most of the year, saving Grappa for the "big" ones.

I have nothing against a rider paying top dollar for a good eq horse. Hey if they want to blow their money on one day, that is their choice.

And i don't think having "the eq horse" is necessary. Randy Sherman won on a borrowed horse that wasn't a "big" name.

Kelley Farmer won on a greenie, borrowed at the last minute.

Emily rode one of her own that was difficult and while has continued with others, has not turned into a "great one"

FYI - Maggie did not do Grappa in the warm up on Saturday, so she might still have been deciding which one to do.

Jamie Taylor
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WC Princess:


FYI - Maggie did not do Grappa in the warm up on Saturday, so she might still have been deciding which one to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maggie DID do Grappa on Sat. and yes you CAN win without leasing a big name horse...I won on my own, I only leased this year because my horse is sore.

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

Hopeful Hunter
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:46 PM
I have to say I find this to be yet another depressing thread about my sport. Adhock, it was wonderful that your daughter got a chance to show, and I'm sure she deserved it. And for those on the board who did eq on their own horses, my hat is also off to you.

BUT...

The fact that we can even consider something like "25K" to lease a horse is frankly really, really disgusting. Stop to think for a moment -- what does that $25k actually GET someone? A ribbon? Maybe a saddle? They sure can't win it back in prize money, nor does it make a difference for most people in their professional lives unless they become trainers.

When you realize that many beginner TEACHERS -- you know, those people who help the kids learn to COUNT to 25K? -- may make that or even less as an annual salary I think you can see why it's totally insane to some people, myself included.

Toss these kinds of numbers around in public and you can see why for most people the idea of riding - of allowing horses to use public lands, or allowing people to run riding stables or keep a horse on their property - has so little support.
That is why I personally get frankly annoyed by these ridiculous costs -- it makes the sport totally inaccessible and incomprehensible to most people. I know people who own a horse that they love and pay to board and care for very well who make only $2000 more a YEAR than that figure, but we never talk about that. It's very sad to me.

I dont' think ANY sport is worth huge dollars. But at least with the major broadcast sports I can see the player costs being recouped in TV and ticket fees. Not so with any riding activity. And that's a shame -- I doubt few sportspeople are as totally nuts about their game as we riders are, but that love is just seen as a spoiled rich persons playtime with these kinds of costs.

Molly99
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamie Taylor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WC Princess:


FYI - Maggie did not do Grappa in the warm up on Saturday, so she might still have been deciding which one to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maggie DID do Grappa on Sat. and yes you CAN win without leasing a big name horse...I won on my own, I only leased this year because my horse is sore.

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mistake, I swear the announcer said "Chocolate." I remember thinking it odd, as I assumed she was doing Grappa.

Jamie Taylor
Oct. 14, 2002, 07:57 PM
Yeah, Maggie was entered on Chocolate...but definitely did Grappa...A lot of people just enter on a horse, then change the name when they figure out who they are riding however the announcer and the board don't always get the changes....I know I was announced on a different horse than I rode.

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

~SC~
Oct. 14, 2002, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Pakzad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Southern Comfort~:
The really *nice* Eq horses that get saved for the Finals and are consistently in the ribbons can go anywhere from $25,000-$50,000 PER SHOW. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Absolutely insane...but these horses are worth their weight in gold.

~Sarah~

~*Southern Comfort*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now, lets not get carried away... I know for a FACT that even the nicest equiation horses don't go for 25k-50k per show. That is just insane. Good thing it isn't true /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno...I was talking to a trainer in FL this past winter, no names, and he told me for a fact that he leased certain horses out for that much during Indoors. Of course, the people leasing it may be getting suckered in and overpaying, but it's their money. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Sarah~

~*Southern Comfort*~

havaklu
Oct. 14, 2002, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
BUT...

The fact that we can even consider something like "25K" to lease a horse is frankly really, really disgusting. Stop to think for a moment -- what does that $25k actually GET someone? A ribbon? Maybe a saddle? They sure can't win it back in prize money, nor does it make a difference for most people in their professional lives unless they become trainers.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think it made a difference to Emily Williams to win (granted not on a lease horse)? Do you think maybe Maggie Jayne will go pro?

For some winning an Eq final is the highlight of their riding career - BUT to Quote Mr. Morris

"So you win the Medal or Maclay. That is just a good start to becoming a true horseman and International caliber rider..."

Given that Mr. Morris won both titiles - do you think he got a good start????

Another thing - last time I checked there isn't any real "market" for the winner of a gymnastics gold medal other than some sponsorships - Do you know how much parents spend on a child with hopes of making it to the olympics in gymnastics? Most of them have to live away from home in one of the few cities where a top coach is located.

no longer a BBer
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:46 PM
I don't think we are being harsh on the riders today. Everything we are saying is true. They do have grooms. Most of the kids that are in the ribbons in the medal did not tack their horses up this weekend. The horse was brought to them tack up with their cooler on. They hopped aboard and schooled it. They then got off and gave the horse to their groom. They went and learned the course, while their horse was being brushed and fussed over. They came back and got on their horse and went to the ring.

They finished their trip and got off. They handed the horse to the groom. They went and went over what just happened with their trainer and then went and sat with their friends in the stands.

Notice I said SOME kids. Not everyone did this, or exactly like this but I bet the majority did.

I did hear a TOP, TOP trainer talking about revamping the medal finals. He said that the top four should be sent into the ring and have a bridle took apart on 4 different card tables. He then said that they should have 10 minutes to put the bridle together, get it on the horse, and adjust it correctly.

He said that these kids do not know enough horsemanship. He even said his kids don't know enough, and he and the system were to blame. If he had more time to spend teaching them the basics they could know. He said that he doesn't have the time because to qualify for the finals you must show a lot to get in. The parents aren't going to pay him to teach the kids how to do the stuff. If he make them learn, they will go somewhere else.

When you put the best rider (Maggie) with the best horse (Grappa) you are giving yourself the best chance for the win. And if I was spending 20,000 dollars on a horse per show, I better win the damn finals. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also don't like people complaining that they have had it hard. They have to ride green horses all day long. SORRY, but that is not having it hard. I know a ton of kids who would love to be able to ride one green horse a day, let alone a big fancy green import.

Go Get 'Em Tiger!!!

PromQueen
Oct. 14, 2002, 09:52 PM
Amen....

hillary
Oct. 14, 2002, 10:52 PM
I do not want to detract anything from these young riders who earned these great victories. I am especially appreciative of the costs to get a horse from the west coast to the east coast and the need to work with a loaner horse under these cricumstances.

I do however bemoan the "equitation horse".

Where has showing gone wrong here? These horses are described as superstars - but there is no division for them as performance horses? What is the message here? The horses are solid jumpers, obedient animals, well trained, responsive, ... but... not "fancy" enough for the hunters ???? and not good enough for the jumpers ? Or, at $3k-25k per day, is this where the really great horses are? What an interesting economics dilemma.

I love watching these animals in action. They look like heavy weight hunters from years ago. Look at Grappa, Editorial: big faces, not perfect with the front end, large barrels: what a pity that these horses are not the current "hunter type". Something is not right. The hunter courses are WAY too simple and not developing a robust animal. The courses could do more to encouraging a better schooled horse, not just line-diagonal-line. We are boring ourselves collectively with this situation, and then the horses get judged on minor stuff, like a tail switch or can its knees go above the nose.

Peggy
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:21 PM
I know there are kids who pose on nice horses and couldn't get their own horse ready for the ring or put a bridle back together. But there are some--trainers' kids, those with fewer financial resources, ones who plan to go pro...--who are effective riders who can ride a variety of horses, clean up a horse, evaluate a lame horse, and muck a stall. Sadly, there are more kids with the latter group of skills in pony club.

Riding those eq courses isn't easy and provides no guarantees, even on a super horse. Didn't Grappa stop last year?

I love watching medal finals b/c of the challenging courses and high-level riding (and, I will confess, the politics). It's probably harder to win by posing on a prepped horse in the eq than in the hunters (not that hunters is easy by any means). I also recognize the level of training that the horses have. I've only been lucky enough to ride one high level eq horse and he was a pleasure--easy to jump, but also well-schooled on the flat (easily could have done a third-level dressage test).

IMHO a groom at a show is a privilege that you earn when you can do it yourself, but that no longer seems to be the case in this hurry up society. I know of one BNT who won't let students groom their own horses at home b/c they might not do a good enough job. So, teach them!

What's my point in all this rambling? Maybe that there are a variety of stories out there and we shouldn't generalize.

Judi
Oct. 14, 2002, 11:26 PM
He's just not fancy enough for the Hunters but goes as steady and clean as the rest of them. We are deligated to Eq and Medals cuz he's just not "quick" enough for those Jump offs. Now mind you I do the Hunters for the experience... but will always be beat by the "pretty" refined ones. And forget taking my big boy in the hack. But I love him in all his jock glory...

Lets hear it for the big barreled.. big boned honest ones... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAD
Oct. 15, 2002, 04:41 AM
Custom Boots $1000
Coat $800
Show Shirt $130
GPA Hat $300
Show Bow $7
Tack $1800
GRAPPA Priceless

VTrider
Oct. 15, 2002, 04:46 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOLOLOLOLOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ScubySnak82
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:14 AM
Mad....I don't think that anyone at the medal finals was wearing a show bow! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Still funny though /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you have read hair and someone says you look like Opie...tell them, Yeah O.P...Orange Pimp!

Bumpkin
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judi:
He's just not fancy enough for the Hunters but goes as steady and clean as the rest of them. We are deligated to Eq and Medals cuz he's just not "quick" enough for those Jump offs. Now mind you I do the Hunters for the experience... but will always be beat by the "pretty" refined ones. And forget taking my big boy in the hack. But I love him in all his jock glory...

Lets hear it for the big barreled.. big boned honest ones... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rainier is a COOL horse, and WELCOME to the COTHBB.
I met you on the LWSC BB when you first found Rainier /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BB
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:00 AM
But MAD...

My show bow cost me $14.95 at Miller's /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

shmon
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:12 AM
How old is Grappa? Is he the same Grappa that Lauren Bass rode when she won the 1996 Maclay? I know she trained with Missy back then...just don't know if the time frame is correct.

Bumpkin
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:28 AM
I keep thinking I have seen Grappa For Sale in COTH.
Is this true, or my imagination. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Anne
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:29 AM
Schmon yes, same horse. Bumpkin I don't ever remember seeing that, but maybe???

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

AHC
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:56 AM
As far as grooms, I would beware making a judgment based on what you see at the medal finals. Lots of kids do some of their own stuff during the year and still have help at finals. It makes sense. Anyone who qualifies should be able, on the day of the finals, to concentrate on the course and their ride, watch the people that go before and after them, etc. and not worry about whether the horse and tack are spotless, braids are perfect, etc.

Certainly if I had a kid who qualified, I would insist that they have help that day. Same way I'd insist that they do most of their own work for the other show days during the year.

War Admiral
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:10 AM
When I rode in the Maclay (70s) I **wanted** to do my own grooming, tacking up, etc. Even though I knew I had not a snowball's chance of winning I was still completely terrified, and I bet I would have collapsed before the first fence w/ shaking knees had I not taken the opportunity to just disappear into my (self-owned, self-trained and much loved) horse's stall and have a quiet word w/ him under the guise of fixing the braids. But that's just me. Probably explains why we were dead last, too! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Reads Forums At Work Clique, Lame/Sick/Injured Horse Clique

InWhyCee
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:44 AM
Bless you, Tiger.... I pay $$$ to ride a greenie every damn weekend (I'm sure a lot of people on the BB do as well), and while I love the way he tries to enthusiastically rush every fence and I know it has made me a better rider, no one is throwing any sympathy my way, nor should they. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It isn't my intention to beat up on any riders here; if you're in the Medal or Maclay finals, yes, you can ride and ride well. But, I do have a problem with a system designed to encourage good horsemanship and superior riding in which one cannot hope to compete without a six or seven figure income. As they say in Texas, "Sometimes you gotta dance with them that brought you" but obviously that's not the case in the Big EQ.
________________

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

MAD
Oct. 15, 2002, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mad....I don't think that anyone at the medal finals was wearing a show bow! Still funny though <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought that Maggie wore her hair in a pony tail or something (???).

I have no idea what a *show bow* truly is or what they cost. All I know is that GRAPPA is priceless!

fancypants
Oct. 15, 2002, 10:27 AM
Grappa was the horse that won on the video of the AHSA Medal that they sell in tack stores if you want to see him go. I remember he looked like a hunter going around that course. Actually I think he did a lead swap in front of one fence, but the rest of the round was perfect. I think it was from 1996 when Lauren Bass rode him. I would love to just ride a horse like him some day, I don't care if it's in the medal finals or the schooling ring.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 15, 2002, 10:35 AM
A primer for MAD /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

According to the PH Missy Clark turnout article from this past summer, Ms. Jayne wears a subtle elegant little ribbon tying her hair into a pony tail that looks nice with the GPA or any approved helmet. The fact that it matches her shirt is pretty cool too. A newer hair trend as opposed to the "neat net" look that most folks sport in the hunter ring.

Show bows are those large snood-like barettes with the little hair net in the back. While they have their fans and look very neat in the Western pleasure ring with the matching Western show outfits, they are not generally seen in the hunter ring.

How's that? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAD
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by MAD:
Custom Boots $1000
Coat $800
Show Shirt $130
GPA Hat $300
Show Bow $7
Tack $1800
GRAPPA Priceless <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by Flashy Gray:
Ms. Jayne wears a subtle elegant little ribbon tying her hair into a pony tail <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Custom Boots $1000
Coat $800
Show Shirt $130
GPA Hat $300
Subtle elegant little ribbon $5 (???)
Tack $1800
GRAPPA Priceless

ScubySnak82
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:34 PM
Ha ha ha perfect!!! I thought your origional post was hilarious, just pointing out that show bows aren't usually seen at big shows....but you know, stranger things have happened and may one day be in style...lol....you can be sure as hell I wouldn't wear one! Did someone say that someone wore red pants at the finals?!

If you have read hair and someone says you look like Opie...tell them, Yeah O.P...Orange Pimp!

Flashy Gray
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:36 PM
You know how seriously we take issues relating to showbows around here, MAD!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hahahahaha!

BB
Oct. 15, 2002, 01:52 PM
Rick's Heritage Saddlery has them on sale for (gasp!) $2.99!! What an amazing bargain! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.saddlesource.com/showbow.htm

I can't imagine why they're on sale /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAD
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Peggy:
What's my point in all this rambling? Maybe that there are a variety of stories out there and we shouldn't generalize. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to take the subject away from the all important issue of show bows, but don't you think Maggie EARNED the ride on Grappa?

Now, I know NOTHING about Equitation and couldn't name the winners off from the last years, but it is pretty obvious that Missy historically doesn't SELL Grappa's lease to the highest bidder each year, but reserves him for the most deserving RIDER. It is a PRIVELEGE (and honor) to be the one that she selects.

The Jaynes have their farm across from my Mom's in Wellington. I've never met them except to smile at them. But during WEF those kids are on horses at 6am until it is dark - even many Mondays. I wake up and they are on horses, I go to my room (which faces their house on Appaloosa Trail) to watch "Must See TV" and lights are still on in their barn. Are they mucking stalls? I have no idea. But, they are on horses late enough that someone is still putting horses away after 8pm. They work hard and are under intense pressure. Competition is intense.

So, I am probably once again just being the gossip policeman, but I have been around horse shows for a long while, and this is my observation of Maggie.

As for why do people pay so much for an equitation horse (with what many of perceive as no "payback")? Well, how about because they can? One example that I know of, is that someone (that did spend lots of money on their children's junior career) once told me that they could have spent millions on "famous art". Many do. But to them, a picture of their child holding a blue ribbon, or any ribbon for that matter, at Indoors was woth more than a million dollars - and was lots more fun - because it was something that the whole family had worked for throughout many many years.

Blue Devil
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:21 PM
Bumpkin--
There is a chestnut (small?) junior hunter named Grappa who was for sale in the COTH a few years ago. He had done well at Devon with a girl named Chiare something-rather. Denise DeRisio-Perry had him for sale.

My karma ran over your dogma.
Emily@catchride.com

easy now
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:46 PM
I know that Meridith Taylor won the Medal in 1995 under a pretty strict budget. There was a big article in Practical Horseman about her at the time. She rode with Gary Zook and Missy Clark. I think she started out with Gary and then later on Missy became involved.

If I remember correctly, she rode in Gary's custom boots because she couldn't afford her own. She lost her eq horse (it was sold ) before one of the big eq finals (regionals I think) and she was told by Gary and Missy that they would find her a horse for the finals and not to worry. So...there are trainers out there who will take (or who have taken) kids who work hard and show an amazing amount of talent. I also believe that Meridith was a working student at the time and also drove the horses back from NYC (when it was at the Gardens) to the barn after winning the finals. That's a great story!

Flashy Gray
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:54 PM
Yes, when Francesca Mazella won one of the big finals in (I think) 1985, when she rode with (I think) Cooney & Madden at Beacon Hill, one of my favorite favorite PH articles from that time was the cover story on how she did the finals on a 'budget' - riding at home, trailering in for lessons, etc. etc.

And I also remember the gray eq horse she had was named Free Union, after (I think) the town in VA.

Perhaps another one of you oldsters such as moi /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif could provide more details. Alex Trebek, are you out there?

easy now
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:54 PM
Along that line...do you think that there are still trainers out there who will help a kid with a huge amount of talent but not a huge budget make it to the finals? It's expensive any way you look at it but if one didn't have to lease horses and pay training fees, worked as a groom etc. it would put it in reach for many more people.

It does get a little disheartening when you hear of these kids who don't ride all that well but whose parents have deep pockets and they make it to the finals. This is hard especially when you know many other kids who with half of the money would be more competitive.

This is not to take away from the Jaynes. From reading articles etc about them, the kids all seem to be really hard workers. They have basically made the money, not their parents. I think I read somewhere that Maggie used to hack ponies before afternoon kindergarten! Maggie especially, being the oldest, has had to make all of her horses, Grappa excluded. Her brother and sister have had the privledge of coming after Maggie and getting some of the more broke horses. They are in the business however and Maggie has been quoted as saying that it was hard to get a pony going and just start to enjoy it at shows and then have it sold. So I think she's paid her dues. Congrats!

MAD
Oct. 15, 2002, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know that Meridith Taylor won the Medal in 1995 under a pretty strict budget <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not that uncommon. We probably just don't hear about it that much. My sister didn't win, maybe she was 3rd?, but Frank & Bill (Beacon Hill back then) sure arranged for her to show one of the nicest Eq horses there ever was. What did it cost my Mom? $0. Why? Because that was about what she had to spend on a horse. Why the opportunity? I'd assume because my sister worked hard and was dedicated - and not just as a rider. Where is she now? A professional respected in the sport 16 years later.

MHM
Oct. 15, 2002, 03:43 PM
Francesca won in '84, I believe. She won the Medal and the Maclay finals in the same year, which is pretty rare. She was the first to do it in a while.

FYI- I hear she's doing well these days.

akrogirl
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:51 PM
Not to upset people or anything, but I did actually see some show bows at the recent A show in Scottsdale. Personally, I don't think they look that bad (putting on my flame suit here and, no, I don't wear one /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

dogchushu
Oct. 15, 2002, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Peggy:
What's my point in all this rambling? Maybe that there are a variety of stories out there and we shouldn't generalize. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to take the subject away from the all important issue of show bows, but don't you think Maggie EARNED the ride on Grappa?

Now, I know NOTHING about Equitation and couldn't name the winners off from the last years, but it is pretty obvious that Missy historically doesn't SELL Grappa's lease to the highest bidder each year, but reserves him for the most deserving RIDER. It is a PRIVELEGE (and honor) to be the one that she selects.

The Jaynes have their farm across from my Mom's in Wellington. I've never met them except to smile at them. But during WEF those kids are on horses at 6am until it is dark - even many Mondays. I wake up and they are on horses, I go to my room (which faces their house on Appaloosa Trail) to watch "Must See TV" and lights are still on in their barn. Are they mucking stalls? I have no idea. But, they are on horses late enough that someone is still putting horses away after 8pm. They work hard and are under intense pressure. Competition is intense.

So, I am probably once again just being the gossip policeman, but I have been around horse shows for a long while, and this is my observation of Maggie.

As for why do people pay so much for an equitation horse (with what many of perceive as no "payback")? Well, how about because they can? One example that I know of, is that someone (that did spend lots of money on their children's junior career) once told me that they could have spent millions on "famous art". Many do. But to them, a picture of their child holding a blue ribbon, or any ribbon for that matter, at Indoors was woth more than a million dollars - and was lots more fun - because it was something that the whole family had worked for throughout many many years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post MAD. I've been trying to think of a way to say what you said in your last paragraph, but now I don't have to. Because you put it better than I ever could.

sss
Oct. 15, 2002, 06:52 PM
I remember that article about Francesca in PH, Flashy Gray! Was she also in Seventeen magazine that year, or am I getting confused? I remember (through the fog) being pleased to see someone related to H/J's being featured in non-horsey magazine (I think Clea Newman was in there too).

I remember a picture of Francesca jumping on a trampoline, and it said she taught her dog to longe and jump (just like me!). I remember the important stuff! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I do recall reading about her showing on a budget. I think it was 1984.

Flash44
Oct. 15, 2002, 06:59 PM
Some people have a ton of money and can spend it on horses, art, whatever. If you want to play in a sport where the wealthy can legally, legitimately and fairly stack the odds in their favor by opening their wallets, you can't cry foul when they do just that. Get over it and go have fun with your horse.

Anyplace Farm
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BB:
Rick's Heritage Saddlery has them on sale for (gasp!) $2.99!! What an amazing bargain! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.saddlesource.com/showbow.htm

I can't imagine why they're on sale /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem! I think you can thank ME for finding that wonderful equestrian fashion accessory on sale! It was I who first posted (to the best of my knowledge) that said bow was on sale.

Being the fashionista that I am, I'm always on the hunt for fine designer clothing and accesory bargains and felt compelled to share it with my fellow COTHers.

Now, back to my search for the beaded thong. Pretty sure Rick's is selling those at full price.

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

Alex Trebek
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:

And I also remember the gray eq horse she had was named Free Union, after (I think) the town in VA.

Perhaps another one of you oldsters such as moi /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif could provide more details. Alex Trebek, are you out there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Are you insinuating I'M one of the oldsters?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Indeed Free Union is in Virginia. I, honestly, don't remember Francesca having a horse by that name, but there was a horse of the same era named Free Union that was shown by Keith Hastings to multiple championships for several years Indoors in the a/o's. Is that the same one?

[This message was edited by Alex Trebek on Oct. 15, 2002 at 11:00 PM.]

DMK
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Trebek:

Are you insinuating I'M one of the oldsters?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the wheelchair fits...

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

dogchushu
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:14 PM
Paying my monthly bills after reading this thread has made me decide we need to make some major changes in the equitation classes. From now on, riders should not be able to show on these stellar horses. Nope, they should be forced to demonstrate their riding abilities on a horse who

* will not change to the right lead without a major fuss
* bulges through left turns
* will not do rollbacks without a bigger fuss than a lead change
* thinks she knows how to take the jumps better than you and swishes her tail in fury when you don't let her have her way, and
* makes up for the above faults with a bascule from god!

In other words, from now on, riders will need to pay $5000 to lease MY horse for the weekend! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Email me at the address on my profile please. And I'll see if we can work something out!

Flash44
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:21 PM
How bout we just do away with the horses all together and make the riders jump the jumps on foot?

Medievalist
Oct. 15, 2002, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know that Meridith Taylor won the Medal in 1995 under a pretty strict budget <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not that uncommon. We probably just don't hear about it that much. My sister didn't win, maybe she was 3rd?, but Frank & Bill (Beacon Hill back then) sure arranged for her to show one of the nicest Eq horses there ever was. What did it cost my Mom? $0. Why? Because that was about what she had to spend on a horse. Why the opportunity? I'd assume because my sister worked hard and was dedicated - and not just as a rider. Where is she now? A professional respected in the sport 16 years later.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of MAD's sister, I just saw a pic of her in L'Eperon holding her twins. Have you seen it MAD? It's cute...

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Check out my barn's site:
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Comment est-ce qu'on dit &lt;quiche&gt; en anglais? Mapi LaJoux

AnnM
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:03 PM
One of my favorite articles ever in PH was in the late 80's about Tammy Provost after she won the USET (and I think placed 3rd in the Medal). She is another daughter of a trainer, and she worked very hard to get to the big eq finals, riding young and green sale horses throughout her junior career. If I remember correctly, she rode a 1st year green hunter the first time she went to finals, and only later on did she arrange a lease on Fabian, a really pretty black horse with a stripe if I remember correctly.

So, yes, it does happen. You can make it to the top without huge amounts of disposable income. It's definitely more difficult, though, and it hasn't happened in recent memory.

But I totally believe that the fanciest eq horse will only get you so far. I had just about the most made children's hunter that ever was, and believe you me, I managed to miss horribly to jumps all the time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Even those horses that just need to pointed in the right direction don't automatically know when to do rollback turns and serpentines without being told. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AnnM

JinxyFish313
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:09 PM
for whoever was talking about having the top riders switch horses...in most cases its the same group of top riders and alot of those kids hav all ridden the rest of the horses anyway, so switching isnt all that big a deal. Plus alot of them meet their horses @ shows n hav about as much experience on them as they hav on their competitors' horses. JMHO

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by medievalist:
Speaking of MAD's sister, I just saw a pic of her in L'Eperon holding her twins. Have you seen it MAD? It's cute...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you post right to the link - I can't find it! Thanks.

VTrider
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Trebek:

Are you insinuating I'M one of the oldsters?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the wheelchair fits...

_"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


DMK - 1
Alex Trebek - 0

Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Are you insinuating I'M one of the oldsters?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, um .... yes! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Medievalist
Oct. 16, 2002, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by medievalist:
Speaking of MAD's sister, I just saw a pic of her in L'Eperon holding her twins. Have you seen it MAD? It's cute...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you post right to the link - I can't find it! Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's in a magazine. I'll try to scan it for you today.

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Check out my barn's site:
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Comment est-ce qu'on dit &lt;quiche&gt; en anglais? Mapi LaJoux

InWhyCee
Oct. 16, 2002, 09:42 AM
All I can say is, if my parents had me working at their construction sites at 6 AM, Children's Services would have come calling. I sincerely hope that those kids love what they do....

PS: Dogchushu, en garde! ROTFLOL!
_____________

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

Flash44
Oct. 16, 2002, 09:51 AM
Right, isn't Monday a school day? And even the best tutors can't cram an entire school week into a few evenings.

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:01 AM
InWhyCee - as I said in my post, I don't know the Jaynes. What I said I did say were just my observations! What - do you think I am out there stalking them and keeping track of their every movement? I have no idea if they attend school or not. I do know that there is the school that many kids go to in Wellington that caters to children doing the WEF circuit. There are also many parents that do home schooling.

Besides, what business is it of yours? Why don't you celebrate Maggie's well deserved win?

FLAME SUIT ON: Why does every post of yours (on this thread and many others) drip with jealousy??? So you work hard for the limited riding you do get to do, good for you. We all recognize what you do. Just don't take away from what others also accomplish. Do I complain that my younger sister is the *star* of the family? Hell no, I am the proudest one of them all and never stop singing her praise. Of course you can post your thoughts on this board, but sometimes, if you don't don't have something nice to say...

CBoylen
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:06 AM
You'd be surprised Flash. I used a tutor every winter (Dec-April) from kindergarden to 12th grade. It rarely took more than a couple hours a day three days a week to keep up, easily fit in in the morning, evening, or between classes at the show. Actual schools waste a ton of time, and a one on one environment is way more effective. Most of the kids I grew up with used this option sucessfully.

Sunday
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:30 AM
And the one thing that has stuck with me is the year before she placed in one of the finals, maybe 3rd? But they knew that horse wouldn't take her all the way to the blue ribbon. Hence the new mount the next year and a double win.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:36 AM
As to Francesca's eq horse, it's now driving me nuts what his barn name was - Joe or something. He was a dappled grey horse, as I recall. I always liked that article because I just remember her dedication and hard work. Kinda silly to remember an article from so long ago, but the things that horse crazy kids fixate on!

A few years later I was riding a friend's horse that was kept at the barn where FM was then teaching, she seemed like a very nice person.

[This message was edited by Flashy Gray on Oct. 16, 2002 at 01:15 PM.]

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
Thank you MAD!
Thank you very much.

As to Francesca's eq horse, it's now driving me nuts what his barn name was - Joe or something. He was a dappled grey horse, as I recall. I always liked that article because I just remember her dedication and hard work. Kinda silly to remember an article from so long ago, but the things that horse crazy kids fixate on!

A few years later I was riding a friend's horse that was kept at the barn where FM was then teaching, she seemed like a very nice person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you for what?

Anyway, the gray horse that Francessca won on is the same one that Peter Wylde won the Maclay on.

And - something keeps telling me that Peter might have had a rail down in the Maclay when he won. I'm probably wrong, but that keeps going through my head.

Alex Trebek
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:48 AM
Native Surf?

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:48 AM
I think the gray horse's barn name was Joe, show name Free Union, and the bay horse he replaced was called Reggie. Peter did win on Native Surf. How's that for useless trivia? Now if only I could remember pertinent things from last week!

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:49 AM
The horse's name was

FREE UNION and barn name *could have* been Joe.

The barn name she really couldn't remember, but said that might have been it.

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by MHM:
and the bay horse he replaced was called Reggie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reggie was Charge A Count's barn name. You think they had 2 of them in the same barn?

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:06 AM
There must have been more than one Reggie, because Francesca certainly wasn't riding Charge A Count! The whole point of the PH article was that she couldn't afford that calibre of horse, but won anyway. Her Reggie was bay or brown, and I think Charge A Count was chestnut.

Now I'll have to ransack my mother's garage on my next visit to try to find that magazine!

Alex Trebek
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
Her Reggie was bay or brown, and I think Charge Account was chestnut.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yep, as was Count Tuscan, piloted in his golden years by your Jeopardy host. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:10 AM
I will gladly help you ransack your mom's garage for that PH! This is now driving me crazy!

Better yet, if I have time this weekend I am going to go through all my old kid stuff and look for it, too. Otherwise we'll have to get one of our EBay BBers to find it!

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:16 AM
Fear not- I'm supposed to go to my mother's this weekend, and I'd bet anything that magazine is there... somewhere! Ebay has nothing on my mother's garage.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:22 AM
Darn - I am calling Francessca's number and getting a BUSY SIGNAL!

How is this for desperation?

WindfallWorrell
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:53 AM
Working students can win -- but the emphasis is on WORKING! Meredith Taylor started working for Gary Zook & Ken Berkley when she was 14 -- every vacation, weekend, and summer -- she participated in ALL barn chores, rode EVERY horse, and often could not show because there was no horse for her. She had her "own" horse until she was 15, but by then her riding level had outpaced the finances to keep up and she was dependent on "rides." She went to FL every year, and usually "self tutored" -- kept up with her school work on her own, lived with the help and WAS the help. 6 am to dark would be an easy day. Guess who works on Mondays?

Her mom was a local professional, and also was a WORKING mom--shipping, braiding, helping -- not only her daughter, but for the barn as a whole.

She leased horses for the "big shows" Devon, Harrisburg, Maclay regionals, only a few times, and usually very reasonably ($500-$1200) because that was top of the budget.

Meredith indeed won the finals in Gary's boots and Ken's saddle on Missy's horse--that she had gotten on only the afternoon before because the one she was "used to" came up lame. She drove the horses home from Harrisburg all by herself in the Rivers Edge van, and was in school the next morning.

The next week in Washington, another of Missy's students opted for the horse Meredith won on, so she rode the one the other girl had ridden in Harrisburg. She was 2nd.

The next week at the Maclay finals, she paid $1,000 for the day to ride the horse that she had never sat on before (but which had won before) Again she was second.

The next week she was at work at her first job as a professional, and has been at it ever since. Still workin'.

So if you're poor, dedicated and willing to really really work for a really really long time, you can do it.

kd welden
Oct. 16, 2002, 11:55 AM
Speaking of big time riders who won on borowed horses or limited budgets...

Kelley Farmer got free rides for two years on 14 Karat (from Beacon Hill) before winning the Maclay on Brother (from Missy Clark)

Nicole Shahinian got rides on so many horses, one was Black Ice, I can't remember the others. I think she won on Black Ice.

And someone mentioned Meredith Taylor... something that was not mentioned is that she won or got top four placings at regionals, USET finals, Medal Finals, WIHS and the Maclay Finals on at least three different horses. I know that she rode Bob at USET finals, Keratin at one of the Medals and I can't remember the third horse. - This was a huge deal!!!

AS for leases... I'm ten years away from it but back then the going rate was $2500 per weekend on a big time equitation horse.

WindfallWorrell
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:03 PM
Yes, Meredith was 2nd in 1994 at the USET on Bob, 1st in 1995 at the Medal on Keratin, 2nd at Washington on "Gremmy" (oh, good heavens, I only remember the barn names) and 2nd at NY on "Buddy" (sorry) I remember. I'm her mom.

MKM
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:06 PM
i dont follow the hunter/eq world, and have, in fact, NEVER been in an eq class. but just reading this thread really had me down on the whole eq scene until reading about meredith.
congrats, you did something right while raising her! sounds like you have one heck of a young lady on your hands! reading about her was so refreshing and encouraging.

lonewolf
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:06 PM
Are there pros out there *today* who are still giving rides on top horses to deserving students? Because to me that it was easier a few years ago than today to make it based only on hard work and dedication. Today, I think you still need the work and dedication, but it just seems to me that you also need so much more...

Any recent winners on a budget? Or recent winners who won on a non superstar horse?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He who claims to have made a small fortune in the horse business probably started with a large one.

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:14 PM
Welcome to the BB!!!

How is Devon these days? What's she up to?

Tackpud
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:31 PM
Windfall - welcome to the board! Thank you for joining us and congratulations on such a great daughter! I remember watching her ride and being blown away by her talent on so many different horses. That's what horsemanship is about /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WindfallWorrell
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:33 PM
Devon is a Junior at Susquehanna University majoring in Writing with a minor in Sociology--plans to go to law school. She worked for Tustin two summers ago and over last Christmas, but other than that no horses. Her old pony, "Irene" is 28 and still lives at the farm, which we sold in '99. So who are you, anyhow?

EqChick
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:34 PM
"they should be forced to demonstrate their riding abilities on a horse who

* will not change to the right lead without a major fuss
* bulges through left turns
* will not do rollbacks without a bigger fuss than a lead change
* thinks she knows how to take the jumps better than you and swishes her tail in fury when you don't let her have her way, and
* makes up for the above faults with a bascule from god!"


Hate to say it, but that's what most of these kids ride every day. Acutally, more like TEN of them. That's what all their hunter classes are like. And nobody's giving that to them either - it's not a chance for them to go out and frolick on some young thing - it's usually another boarder or sale prospect that they've been told to fix quick (and by quick I mean, "school for ten minutes, then go in the ring and bring out a blue" or "teach this thing changes- you've got one day"). That may not be what it's always like, but the pressure on these kids is no picinic.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, but it has to be recognized that 99.9% of riders out there couldn't win the Medal or Maclay with $1,000,000 to blow on it. Including a lot of professionals! Those courses are HARD. The competition is RIDICULOUS. And they judges are even HARDER!! GHM will tell you that for himself - he prides himself on it, and so he should!

Plus, if you go back and look at top placers in the past, a whole bunch are now professionals or successful adults. I know I am a big equitation person (hence the name). I think it's important to every rider to have good, solid form. Every time I have moved and had to look for a new trainer, I ask them what they've done. If they've never been in a medal class in their life, it just isn't going to work between us. End of story is, this s**t is HARD!

One last note about grooms - in most cases, it is impossible to show twelve horses in one day and groom for yourself.

It's hard to show two in one day and groom for yourself. Can it be done? Have I done it? YES! And I have NO money and not a whole bunch more skill - so that's NOT bragging (if you doubt, watch me ride /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Most top juniors are schooling other horses from their barns for the wealthy ADULTS who go out there for a pretty ride and toss the reins to the groom. Then they get on a small, then lunge their trainer's GP horse, then do a few hunter rounds, then back to the pony's -wait, time for the U/S from that Hunter div. you've got 4 entries in-, then maybe, MAYBE you can try to scrounge up your own mount for an Eq class. You're not going to have time to curry.

Last comment, I swear - I have known several juniors who use jumper winnings to pay for Eq leases. Maggie won a GP the same day right? So she was probably still up for the day. Tell me again why a kid who wins a GP on a horse they trained themselves can't spend the money on a mount with talent to match their own for the one class that's about the rider...

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

EqChick
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:39 PM
Yikes! Sorry that was so long - I had seven pages to reply to!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:50 PM
I remember Devon from when she had that nice gray large pony, Forever Friends. (Or was it Friends Forever?) She was a hoot and a half.

I actually lived in the house you rented on Appaloosa Trail in FL about 7 years ago. The person I worked for at the time rented a room for me there. All together now: "It's a small world, after all..."

Email me if you want- my address is in my profile, I think. (I can't get these icons on this new board to work, but it should be in there.)

kd welden
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonewolf:
Are there pros out there *today* who are still giving rides on top horses to deserving students? Because to me that it was easier a few years ago than today to make it based only on hard work and dedication. Today, I think you still need the work and dedication, but it just seems to me that you also need so much more...

Any recent winners on a budget? Or recent winners who won on a non superstar horse?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He who claims to have made a small fortune in the horse business probably started with a large one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that Missy and Frank still do. I also think that Geoff Teal and Andre Dignelli have/do give horses to deserving riders. I think there are a few more that I don't know about.

I could be totally off my rocker but I thought that I read somewhere that Maggie Jayne is not paying a lease on Grappa. - Anyone know for sure?

Gladiator was not a big name horse and he won with Randy Sherman last year. Speaking of, I think Randy worked on a budget. I'm not sure about that... I think our own Jamie Taylor (who often posts on the BB's) might also work on a budget.

BB
Oct. 16, 2002, 12:57 PM
Most top juniors are schooling other horses from their barns for the wealthy ADULTS who go out there for a pretty ride and toss the reins to the groom.

Just an observation: while we shouldn't generalize that you have to be wealthy to succeed in the big eq, I also don't think we should make the generalization that adults go in for a pretty ride and toss the reins to the groom. A lot of adults also work their tails off to ride and compete.

Not trying to be argumentative...just my $.02 /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

InWhyCee
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:04 PM
Yes, I overstate my case and if the bitterness is all that comes through -- well, I have my theories as to why, which no one needs to hear. Believe me, I DON"T intend to criticize the riders -- as I've said before, you don't make Finals unless you can ride a course and ride it well -- but I DO have problems with a system in which anyone would feel the need to lease a horse for five healthy figures, having already proved themselves and the horse they qualified on to a very high degree.***

*** If a competitor has earned a free ride on a top horse -- well, more power to them. That's a prize in itself.

For too many reasons, I'm bidding farewell to the H/J Board for the week and probably for good. Ciao --
________________

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

EqChick
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:08 PM
I was sort of ambiguous with that comment. I know TONS of very hard working adults, and hope to include myself in that category (when I become an adult who RIDES more than once a month... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

I was commenting more on the fact that people comment all the time on juniors who have Daddy "buy" them ribbons, and I see plenty of adults who "buy" their own.

DEFINITELY NOT ALL!!!

See - we can be civil on here, it's amazing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

BB
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:11 PM
Glad we agree /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

EqChick
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:12 PM
I know if I had a good prospect, I'd want a rider like Maggie on it. I would think a lot of trainers would be willing -even today- to loan out horses to deserving riders. If the rider is so deserving, then they'll probably make the horse look like a superstar, and then the sales price goes up, I can put a nice big fancy add in COTH congratulating her on her win, yada, yada, yada. I've seen a lot of trainers/owners try to convince juniors to take their horse to big shows just to get the thing seen with them on it!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:20 PM
*First, she is doing well, and on the road to recovery. She said that brain injuries do take along time to heal. She has her horse, Melvin, at her mother's and works with him. Francesca told me that Melvin is the one that she was on when she had her accident, and not too shortly after that accident he was diagnosed with EPM (perhaps causing the accident). Since the EPM was caught quickly, he should be fine.

*Second, who mentioned REGGIE? Ding, Ding. His show name was Rugged Rule, barn name was Reggie. Big and Bay.

*Third, she did win both finals on FREE UNION, barn name JOE.

*Fourth, Peter Wylde won the Maclay on NATIVE SURF.

Francesca did give me her email address. Anyone have questions for her? I'll pass them on.

Jair
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by InWhyCee:
but I DO have problems with a system in which anyone would feel the need to lease a horse for five healthy figures, having already proved themselves and the horse they qualified on to a very high degree.***
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly InWhyCee! That is my thought after reading through this thread. It makes no sense to me, and in fact is rather oxymoronic - a good rider suddenly needs to lease a perfect eq horse in order to do well? Isn't the point of equitation to show that one is a very effective rider? How effective are you if you have to buy/lease yourself that perfect been-there-done-that eq horse just for the final? Very counteractive in my opinion.

Besides, what is the big deal about a great Eq horse? IMO they shouldn't be stars at all - its the RIDER who is supposed to be doing the work. A good rider is supposed to make any horse look easy to ride -why can't the top ones just ride their usual horses?

I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me - bringng in a "pinch-hitter" horse at the last minute. What's wrong with riding the one you qualified on? Perhaps there should be a rule that you must ride the same horse at the final that you rode in the qualifiers.

Can you imagine Ludger Beerbaum going to a major competition and suddenly deciding that his horses aren't good enough and wants to lease Milton for a day just so he can win?

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:31 PM
Well, you know.;)

Glad to hear Francesca's doing well. I had been getting updates through a mutual friend, but I hadn't heard anything lately.

MAD- Could you give me her email address? I'd love to get in touch with her. TIA!

Jamie Taylor
Oct. 16, 2002, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me - bringng in a "pinch-hitter" horse at the last minute. What's wrong with riding the one you qualified on? Perhaps there should be a rule that you _must_ ride the same horse at the final that you rode in the qualifiers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See I could see THAT as being unfair. I save my mare for the finals and ride green equitation horses during the year. I qualified on a 5turning6 year old 1st year horse at Indio. He had been a project of mine for about a year and it all came together then. Yes I had my eq horse at Indio to do USETs, because the young horse wasn't ready for that. I do know that Maggie has a situation like mine where she rides young horses she has been working with during the year and at the smaller shows and saves Grappa for the big classes that the young horses aren't ready to do. I could see if you were riding your made eq horse during the year and didn't feel like riding it at finals...that doesn't sound quite right, but a lot of bigeq kids ride green horses and sale horses during the year that either couldn't handle the stress of finals or wouldn't be around for finals!

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

dogchushu
Oct. 16, 2002, 02:44 PM
Uh-oh! I hope no one read my post as anything but an attempt (feeble though it may be) to be funny! Yikes! I read a post where I was quoted and realized that maybe my late night "god my bills are huge this month," punch-drunk slap-happiness didn't come through as I wanted it to!

I was trying to make a joke ("trying" being the operative word here) about how I'd love to have $5000... nothing more.

In all seriousness:
My mare is mine because, for all her flaws, she's very patient and (despite the lead change fussiness) very, very, very, very easy to ride. You could put your 90-year-old, never-been-on-a-horse-before grandma on her and she'd be fine. You can put a jump in front of this horse and 99.999999999% of the time she will get you over it--despite your best efforts to interfere with her. That's why I ride her--she's easy peezy! And she doesn't buck, rear, bolt or do anything more "nasty" than swish that tail of hers (which she deserves to with the way I ride her, lol.)

I certainly didn't ever mean to imply that the top eq riders don't ride anything difficult! Good lord! That would be the last thing I'd want to imply. Especially about the fact I make no bones about that I'm a beginner and riding a dead easy horse!

Good grief, I've seen a couple of the big eq classes and been in absolute AWE at how some of these kids can ride!

Just wanted to make it clear that I meant nothing in my jest other than "dogchushu really could use a cash infusion right about now!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 02:52 PM
Tell FM that "back in the day" (the 80s, sheesh!) she had a lot of fans and we still wish her well in all her endeavours, horsey and otherwise.

As to the Joe/Free Union thing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - OK, it wasn't as trivially outstanding as the Rugged Rule/Reggie thing from MHM, but still - neener neener neener /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And on the subject of folks leasing horses for the finals, or not riding the horse in the final that they qualified on - what about the rider who qualifies early on in the year on one horse?

I should think it would be a bit of a disadvantage to have to show a horse that hadn't stepped in the showring all year if you qualified early. Maybe in ye olden times when people rode their hunters in the eq classes, this wouldn't be a big deal. Or I guess some eq horses double as jumpers for some folks, thus giving the horse continued exposure throughout the season.

But in this era of the "eq specialist," wouldn't early qualification be a bit of a disadvantage if you had to ride the same horse in the finals?

Big eq riders, any thoughts?

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by Flashy Gray:
but still - neener neener neener <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I deserved that! And Alex Trebek gets points for Native Surf.

J. Turner
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:24 PM
I have the two part article right here. Francesca won on Free Union, barn name, Joe. She had another bay, "Reggie" ... the one that "wouldn't do" for next year after she was second in one of the finals.



"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

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J. Turner
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:26 PM
Reggie was not the same horse as the famous Charge Account that Mia somebody rode, as well as others.



"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

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J. Turner
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:29 PM
Gremmy is Grand Finale. My friends' daughter Katie Battison leased him by the show one year.

Which one of Missy's eq horses can't really back up because of a neurological thing? You almost have to leg yield him backwards to back up.



"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

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Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:39 PM
if you really have that old copy of PH around and a scanner, could you at least scan in the cover or something?

As I said earlier, as a teen I just loved that article, as well as an earlier one about Beacon Hill and their successes. I believe the Beacon Hill PH profile had a lovely picture on the front cover of 2 or 3 of the riders, including Clea Newman on Charge A Count.

Anne
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:53 PM
Jess you're thinking of Keratin with the backing up issue. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

PromQueen
Oct. 16, 2002, 04:57 PM
That's what happens to a lot of juniors (qualifying early) especially at Indio or at any of the other big winter circuits..... in fact, that's what most want to happen..(some juniors save a class for Devon more prestigious to win there)...so the pressure is off the rest of the year, to hurry up and qualify, and they can ride greenies, or whatever and "save " their eq horse for Finals.....I guess what they mean by "save" is to keep it free from injury, although that plan doesn't always work.....I think Jamie mentioned that her mare is sore and so she didn't use her for the Medal, and I don't know about Maclay.....and horses like Grappa, who have certainly been there and done that, and are getting up in age, are used only for certain shows; and this takes us back to the core of this thread....

I think it would be fun to see the Medal run like an IHSA show.....at least for the top ten.......have them draw for strange horses that are donated, without any schooling, and have at it......and may the best equitator win......of course this dream would only open up another can of worms with trainers yelling foul that their rider got a lousy pick, and so forth.....but it would certainly test their riding abilities no doubt and make a very long day very interesting!

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by Flashy Gray:
including Clea Newman on Charge A Count. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I feel another neener neener coming on, but wouldn't that be Jenno Topping on Charge A Count? (Lots of people rode Charge A Count, but going by the year, that is probably who was on him).

Jair
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:

I think I feel another neener neener coming on,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and pray tell what does that feel like? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Jair:
and pray tell what does that feel like? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember your Chocolate Thread on OT Day? And what I said about the First Bite of Chocolate? Not as good.

Jair
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:12 PM
I'm so disappointed /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

and here I thought I was missing out on something big /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flashy Gray
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:26 PM
I am not 100% sure about this, but I would never ever give up the chance for a /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif neener neener.

I think that Clea Newman had Charge A Count right before Jenno Topping.

(Slightly less confident neener neener /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

Coreene
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:27 PM
She is a delight to watch and good for her for having another great year. What a great gal you've got, you must be very proud.

Tiger, I totally agree with the Bridle Dismantle test, and I'd pay money to see it. Too bad the class doesn't start with a filthy, mud-crusted horse and the rider has to do all grooming, braiding, etc themself, THEN ride.

Coreene
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:28 PM
Yep, definitely the #1 eq horse in my book.

MAD
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>POSTED BY Flashy Gray:
(Slightly less confident neener neener ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK - Jair - shall I post how I feel now? LOL!

Where is J.Turner with that magazine?

VTrider
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Can you imagine Ludger Beerbaum going to a major competition and suddenly deciding that his horses aren't good enough and wants to lease Milton for a day just so he can win?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Ludger has such special powers as to bring horses back from the dead (i.e. Milton) - can you ask him what he can do for my very first pony - Sun Buns? Thanks Jair Bear /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

J. Turner
Oct. 16, 2002, 05:58 PM
I will try to. I think I have both parts. It may take some time. Gotta get the little one to bed. Maybe I'll start a new thread?



"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

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Sparky
Oct. 16, 2002, 06:00 PM
[/QUOTE]

Exactly InWhyCee! That is my thought after reading through this thread. It makes no sense to me, and in fact is rather oxymoronic - a good rider suddenly needs to lease a perfect eq horse in order to do well? Isn't the point of equitation to show that one is a very effective rider? How effective are you if you have to buy/lease yourself that perfect been-there-done-that eq horse just for the final? Very counteractive in my opinion. {QOUTE}

Maybe my memory is foggy, but wasn't it Grappa who just last year had a big spook at the fish pond in the medal finals, and put his rider out of contention? Even the "perfect" ones are still horses, not machines. Obviously, riding one of the top horses is an advantage, but it doens't make anyone a shoo-in for a prize. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Silly Mommy
Oct. 16, 2002, 07:05 PM
I only read the first and last page here, but here was MY experience.

In 1985, I was second at the southern regionals for the Maclay. The day we were leaving to go down to Judy R's to tune for the Garden, my horse hobbled out of her stall.

We had a horse come into the barn as a GP investment/prospect (rough around the edges, but MAN COULD SHE JUMP!) for me that I felt comfortable on so we took her, but had called ahead to see if there were any lease options on more seasoned individuals. At this late date, the primo horses were taken, and a glorified school horse was $5000! I tried what was available, but felt more comfortable on the jumper (she learned how to counter-canter in 2 days!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I rode my rough-around-the-edges prospect (I still had a year left), and made it til the last cut - I was ousted out of the final cut by the last horse to go--oh well...

Brought the prospect home, only to find out she was blind in one eye and 1/2 blind in the other - no wonder she jumped 6ft standards with me!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!

WindfallWorrell
Oct. 16, 2002, 08:01 PM
Keratin can't back up--or at least couldn't in '95

Silly Mommy
Oct. 16, 2002, 08:17 PM
Jenno had Charge Account first, then Mia Wood


Clea had another Chestnut with a star who is now retired and I think he's at Gary Duffy's (help MHM - name???)

Oh yeah, Playing Games!!!

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!

Jamie Taylor
Oct. 16, 2002, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PromQueen:
.I guess what they mean by "save" is to keep it free from injury, although that plan doesn't always work.....I think Jamie mentioned that her mare is sore and so she didn't use her for the Medal, and I don't know about Maclay.....and horses like Grappa, who have certainly been there and done that, and are getting up in age, are used only for certain shows; and this takes us back to the core of this thread....!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, darn horse...we take her to a show to make sure she doesn't get too rusty and she jumps so well that she bruises her foot. She isn't back for maclay because I cannot afford to fly another horse back here...We borrowed a horse from a friend thats kind of at our barn and also borrowed a horse for regionals...We could have brought Ruby but we didn't want to have a problem with a bruised hoof in the future and were offered a nice horse...I'd rather have my own horse, who I know like the back of my hand...but so is life =)

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive." - Van Wilder
"You can pick your nose and pick your friends, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

MHM
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:26 PM
I think I heard recently that Playing Games has gone to the big pasture in the sky. I'll have to doublecheck, though. He was a good horse, for sure.

The other old geezer I just saw on Sunday was Trapeze Act, aka Chris. I judged a show at the farm where he's retired. He was 6th in the Maclay finals with Louie Jacobs the year Peter Wylde won, 1982. Talk about a horse who was saved for the finals! I don't know if he ever went to a regular horse show in his life. Chris looks a little "mature," but he gobbled up the carrots I brought him in the blink of an eye.

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 05:30 AM
------------------------
quote:
posted by Flashy Gray:
including Clea Newman on Charge A Count.
------------------------
quote:
posted by MAD:
I think I feel another neener neener coming on, but wouldn't that be Jenno Topping on Charge A Count?

===================


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by SQW:
Jenno had Charge Account first, then Mia Wood
Clea had another Chestnut with a star who is now retired and I think he's at Gary Duffy's (help MHM - name???)
Oh yeah, Playing Games!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Flashy Gray - We are even!

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by sss:
Was she [Francesca] also in Seventeen magazine that year, or am I getting confused? I remember (through the fog) being pleased to see someone related to H/J's being featured in non-horsey magazine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jenno Topping supported her entire showing career by modeling. There was a whole spread about her in Seventeen (I am pretty sure that is the magazine) one of those years. That is probably who you are thinking about.

The reason I remember these years pretty well is that most of these people are the same age as my sister, and either my Mom or I took care of Alice's own horses. She only used a Beacon Hill horse for her final year of the Eq. finals.

Bumpkin
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SQW:
Clea had another Chestnut with a star who is now retired and I think he's at Gary Duffy's (help MHM - name???)

Oh yeah, Playing Games!!!

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Newman?
I believe they bought that horse out here.
But I could be wrong.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:25 AM
How could I possibly forget the incredible Playing Games, one of the rock star horses of the 80s?

MAD, we are indeed even. I respectfully retract the last neener neener /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I deserve an Aunt Esther purse-whoopin' for my mistake, thinking I was on par with old Alex Trebek, or something like that /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bumpkin
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamie Taylor:
Yes, darn horse...we take her to a show to make sure she doesn't get too rusty and she jumps so well that she bruises her foot. She isn't back for maclay because I cannot afford to fly another horse back here...We borrowed a horse from a friend thats kind of at our barn and also borrowed a horse for regionals...We could have brought Ruby but we didn't want to have a problem with a bruised hoof in the future and were offered a nice horse...I'd rather have my own horse, who I know like the back of my hand...but so is life =)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My offer to take Ruby and let her visit her baby brother Elliot, still stands /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DreamBigEq37
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
Custom Boots $1000
Coat $800
Show Shirt $130
GPA Hat $300
Show Bow $7
Tack $1800
GRAPPA _Priceless_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOLOLOL... but one suggestion - move that tack up to about $4000. You have to have the $3,900 Butet, the $400 Edgewood bridle, the $300 "equitation boots", the $100 martingale...the list is endless!!

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
&lt;3 Justice Served &lt;3
&lt;3 Nip N Tuck &lt;3

DreamBigEq37
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
Paying my monthly bills after reading this thread has made me decide we need to make some major changes in the equitation classes. From now on, riders should not be able to show on these stellar horses. Nope, they should be forced to demonstrate their riding abilities on a horse who

* will not change to the right lead without a major fuss
* bulges through left turns
* will not do rollbacks without a bigger fuss than a lead change
* thinks she knows how to take the jumps better than you and swishes her tail in fury when you don't let her have her way, and
* makes up for the above faults with a bascule from god!

In other words, from now on, riders will need to pay $5000 to lease MY horse for the weekend! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Email me at the address on my profile please. And I'll see if we can work something out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You just described my horse to a "T"! That's kind of scary, and the scarier part is... he's my eq horse too!!!

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
&lt;3 Justice Served &lt;3
&lt;3 Nip N Tuck &lt;3

Tobi
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:44 AM
I just wanted to add that this thread is an example of why i love these boards!! ignoring the griping (sp?) here and there, it is great to get the inside scoop on the great horses, riders, and trainers of today and yesterday.

i am the daughter of professionals who only show locally and i have a job in corporate america to pay for the shows. i certainly envy those with more $$, but i long ago reconciled myself to the fact that life just isn't fair all the time!!

i also enjoyed the medal final thread where people were discussing the course, common problems encountered, etc.

keep it up everyone!!

findeight
Oct. 17, 2002, 08:57 AM
Good reasons for leasing a finished Eq horse for Finals.

Your own is lame.

It's cheaper to lease for 3 days then pay to ship 15 states away+day charges for 2 weeks. Plus your own travel and hotel expenses.

Your own is green and your parents don't want to spend 5-7500usd to ship it back east where you will not be able to be competitive.

You already sold yours for college money.

You are a trainers kid and don't have your own.

I understand the dislike of the sums of money involved for these leases but the sad truth is, unless you live in the Northeast, these Finals are a ton of money to get to. I cannot understand some of the posts slamming these wonderful riders for doing what they can to win this or at least get a great trip for all that money. Remember alot of our leading pros come out of this competition, winning may not be everything but a great trip will stick in everybodies mind.

These are all about the rider. If Herr Beerbaum was in it, he just might want a different horse.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:08 AM
And, if I was going on a job interview, I'd buy a new or borrow the *best* outfit possible - not the stuff I usually wear

And, if someone ever asked me on a date, I'd wear or borrow the best *makeup* possible - not the stuff I never wear

Of course, I'll stack the odds in my favor to get what I want. I still have to perform to get what I want. Do I get the job? Sometimes. The guy? Almost never.

Janet
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>t's cheaper to lease for 3 days then pay to ship 15 states away+day charges for 2
weeks. Plus your own travel and hotel expenses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You still have to pay your own travel and hotel espenses, and probably day charges too, whether you lease or bring your own horse.

Alex Trebek
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
MAD, we are indeed even. I respectfully retract the last neener neener /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I deserve an Aunt Esther purse-whoopin' for my mistake, thinking I was on par with old Alex Trebek, or something like that /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


EXCUSE me? There appears to be an obvious typo in your last post. I suggest you proofread more carefully. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

With respect to you neener neeners, I could've sworn that you're all wrong and that the first owner/rider of Charge A Count was also the owner of Count Tuscan. For a new Frigidare freezer, who was the owner and where did this owner attend college?

Flashy Gray
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:45 AM
gosh, between taking all of my ginko and other meds for my various AGE-RELATED ailments /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, my shaky old hands must have hit some extra keys on the keyboard!!!!

You're a good sport, and little ol' me is stepping back from the trivia fray, as I just can't compete with the likes of our, um, wiser BBers.

And I agree with Tobi, this has been a great thread for learning about how the biz works at the highest levels.

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Alex Trebek:
With respect to you neener neeners, I could've sworn that you're all wrong and that the first owner/rider of Charge A Count <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think I'll deserve just one *neener* for this, if I am wrong, but Cara Beigel was the first to show Charge A Count as an Eq Horse (he was only about 5 yo?) and I think he may have come from CA. Pretty sure that was about 1980/1979.

For a deduction of a *neener*, Lyda Beigel got Devon the same year, and they rode with Nimrod.

HMMM, Alex, we need to find the first Jeopardy thread because this came up on that...

Anyplace Farm
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:

For a deduction of a *neener*, Lyda Beigel got Devon the same year, and they rode with Nimrod.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now THAT'S a blast from the past.

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

AHC
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:58 AM
Yep, MAD, you're right about Charge A Count and Devon and the Biegel's though I'm not 100% sure Cara was the first to have him. (On a very sad note, don't know if you guys know that Cara died a year or two ago of breast cancer.)

There's another name I'm trying to think of, Ashley something, who I think may have ridden Charge Account, but I can't remember if it was before or after Cara.

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by Anyplace:
Now THAT'S a blast from the past. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO - The past?? What are you talking about?? NO! With Alzheimers, it is only last week. LOL.

J. Turner
Oct. 17, 2002, 10:22 AM
I put it on a different thread.



"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

*** Member of the Rust Clique ***
*** Member of the Ebay Anonymous Clique ***
*** Member of the MKF (Michelle Kwan Forum)***

VTrider
Oct. 17, 2002, 10:24 AM
that I am amazed that I am capable of having a thread that has reached 10 pages of intellectual chatter that in not one single post am I, my horse, love life, or riding ability mocked /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This may end up being the highlight of my week.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 17, 2002, 10:28 AM
I was kind of thinking the same thing myself. Congrats to you!

Although I don't know if my earlier quote falls under the definition of intellectual chatter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I keep picturing Grappa giving me "the hoof" or at the very least the International "L" sign for Loser.

But wait, he couldn't do the "L" sign. He has no thumbs
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MAD
Oct. 17, 2002, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by VTrider:
I, my horse, love life, or riding ability mocked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mocked my own lack of love life to give Alex Trebek the points he deserved, and he was gentleman enough to not take me up on it.

Alex Trebek
Oct. 17, 2002, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
that I am amazed that I am capable of having a thread.......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me Ms. Rider....?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AHC gets microwave for partially correct answer: Ashley Lickle. No freezer because she missed part 2. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DCN
Oct. 17, 2002, 01:33 PM
OK '80s trivia queens, I've got some corrections! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The Beigels started out at Nimrod but moved to Hunterdon. Cara took over Devon and Charge A Count after Lyda, and when Cara was done Mikey Murphy bought them both. I think Jenno came next. Clea Newman got Playing Games from Lisa Tarnapol, who I think got him from Cismont Manor. Clea's equitation horse was the wonderful What's Up Doc and she also had Equus and Leave 'em Laughing (or was it Last Laugh? . . .) And don't forget Night Life and Dillon -- the queen and king of the leased hunter/equitation horses!

EqChick
Oct. 17, 2002, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PromQueen:
I think it would be fun to see the Medal run like an IHSA show.....at least for the top ten.......have them draw for strange horses that are donated, without any schooling, and have at it......and may the best equitator win......of course this dream would only open up another can of worms with trainers yelling foul that their rider got a lousy pick, and so forth.....but it would certainly test their riding abilities no doubt and make a very long day very interesting!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt interesting!

I have heard of the judges actually having people change mounts in the Medal and Maclay, but only from trainers from when they were juniors. I have to say it's really cool to see good juniors (should they choose to) compete in IHSA and clean up. Even moi enjoyed beating those cutsie-poo's who know nothing better than to stick their butt in the air. ("But that girl's not even wearing Tailored's - what the heck is SHE doing with a ribbon?!!?" To which I say "Let me tell you a little something about LEADS.")

Another cool thing is when the judges ask questions in medals. I've seen that happen a lot in the regular season. Unfortunately, I am getting the idea that judges only pull those tests out if they have to decide on a tie. (Like the flat phase this year. Could have been, and arguably should have been, more difficult, but they only wanted to break two riders, not drop any of the others.)

I've seen some fun tests in IHSA, which I will recommend to ANY judge - I think they had fun with them, too!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

EqChick
Oct. 17, 2002, 01:53 PM
To add a comment to that, I think they should only switch mounts at the end with finalists - I have also heard of people really messing with a horse's head (the thinking part, not the physical part) when switching 'cause they're just not a match- then when they get their horse back, they're falling apart.

That would stink, and I don't think it's really the point.

If this came into more regular practice, it might have some bearing on all these monstrous WB all these teeny girls are entering on, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

So tell me again how the 40 Hour Standard was created? I think my boss was busy...

Blinky
Oct. 17, 2002, 01:54 PM
MAD,
Who is your sister? I've been reading this BB for two years and am clueless??

AHC
Oct. 17, 2002, 02:30 PM
Ashley Lickle, of course. Can't imagine how I remembered one half of that name without the other half. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Someone mentioned Nightlife. Ruthann Bowers rode that one. I have it on good authority that in 1984/5 this horse was available for lease at finals for what was at that time an enormous amount of money -- way more than any of the numbers mentioned here.

findeight
Oct. 17, 2002, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>t's cheaper to lease for 3 days then pay to ship 15 states away+day charges for 2
weeks. Plus your own travel and hotel expenses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You still have to pay your own travel and hotel espenses, and probably day charges too, whether you lease or bring your own horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes but if you ship you are talking about 1500 miles+in many cases and up to 3000 in others...at least one and possibly three layover points..maybe 5 days from the west coast.

Lease that finished horse and fly in on Friday for a lesson...pay only the three days..

For example. In my Ohio barn it cost owners about $900usd just to ship to indoors because of the one layover stop and need to get there a few days early to school in the competition arenas. And we are only about 18-20 hours away.

This is an expensive proposition...and the riders still needed to fly in.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Janet
Oct. 17, 2002, 03:23 PM
I agree about the shipping/travel expenses (especially if you are coming from a long way away). But your post seemed to say that leasing would get rid of the hotel expenses, which I don't think would be that different. And I don't see why YOUR horse would need to spend many more days at the show than someone else's leased horse. It might need to spend a couple of days recovering from the trip, but that could be (probably would HAVE to be) somewhere other than the show grounds, and I would include that in the shipping costs.

Yes, if you are coming form some distance, leasing may be economically preferable. But quite a fes of the cases cited were just as local as the leased horses

Tackpud
Oct. 17, 2002, 03:32 PM
Jumping in on the switching horses issue - I personally think it's a great idea, but realize in this time of Liability and Lawsuits, what judge wants to be held responsible if someone has an accident on a horse that's not their own? Let's face it - even the best rider may have a miscommunication with any horse and if they hurt someone else's horse things may get ugly.

findeight
Oct. 17, 2002, 03:53 PM
Typically horses come in for the entire three weeks of indoors so it does cost. Based on my 37 years of showing experience with everything from A to Q(that would be Arabs to Qhs), arriving as early as possible benefits the horse and reduces stress on them........but that does rack up the dollars.


I believe our finalists should switch horses. By this stage in their careers these riders are capable of quickly adapting to any horse, especially one they have seen before.

I say again, I have seen Grappa many times and could lease him for the Ariat...and screw up big time........You still have to ride them.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Silly Mommy
Oct. 17, 2002, 06:21 PM
at the southern regionals ('85) for a second test - without stirrups of course! Couldn't get that danged Orpheus to pick up the counter-canter - I weighed all of 90lbs, and at that point in my riding career didn't have too much experience with WB's. Of course, my mare switched with him /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but at least she would pick it up!

The problem I saw with that particular test was that I was overmounted, and Neil was a bit big on my mare, and she struggled a little. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!

Peggy
Oct. 17, 2002, 07:48 PM
They made the top four switch horses in the 35 and over PCHA medal finals in 2001. I've seen several horse swiches in the 14/u PCHA medal finals and in the LAHSA medals. And this is in Los Angeles, land of litigation.

Jane
Oct. 17, 2002, 09:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blinky:
MAD,
Who is your sister? I've been reading this BB for two years and am clueless??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MAD's sister is Alice Debany. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I believe she also rode with Beacon Hill?

I'm late reading the thread, but what a great thread! I remember watching the medal final that year....the final four were FM, Chris Kappler, Mia Wood, and Jenno Topping. I can't remember Chris and Mia's horses' names, but Jenno had Charge a Count, and when they switched horses in the ride-off, FM and CK switched mounts, and Jenno and Mia switched...Mia put in a flawless trip and ended up reserve.

That was almost 20 years ago....yikes! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Marimee
Oct. 18, 2002, 07:57 AM
Since many of you were showing/watching the big eq during that time, I thought that I would give this a try. This photo is an old eq. horse that I rescued back in 1989 from the sales in NJ. I called him Machine - he truely was. I showed him in the Mini-Medals in 1989 and was told that he was around 28 years old. I got a little information when I took him to shows and one person told me that at one time he was at Coker Farm in NY and was a Big Eq horse, they told me that his name was Oz. I know that it's a long shot, but thought that it was worth a shot to see if anyone recognized him. He was an amazing horse and the only "made" horse that I've ever ridden!!!

Marimee
Oct. 18, 2002, 08:01 AM
Wasn't he cute!

Chrissy
Oct. 18, 2002, 09:05 AM
But HELLO what a CUTIE! Love him! And you were so wonderful to give him a (beautiful!) home after he was discarded. Awesome.

Common sense aint so common.

stephanie
Oct. 21, 2002, 04:54 PM
I think someone has posted this poem before, but I couldn't find it when I searched, and it seemed appropos to this discussion. A little hokey, but it still makes me tear up. My trainer gave out copies to all her clients one Christmas...

The Equitation Horse

Seldom an elegant mover,
Rarely jumps in great form,
Often a workman-like beauty,
But never a threat to conform.
Wearing the rewards of caring,
He's puffed and pulled and worn.
Though admired by all those who know him,
Few would know his show name.
But that barn name means plenty to those who
Know best -- Surf, Mort, or Rags.
He's the one we need most,
And the hardest to find,
And the good ones we fight hard to keep.
With all his shortcomings,
And all that he lacks,
What is it that makes this one special?
He's got stride, must have -- and plenty.
Size -- almost always has that.
But what makes him great is neither of these,
And hard to define as a trait.
Some call it heart,
Some attitude,
And some will just say he tries.
He'll absorb all the pain,
Spend days in the van,
Suffer mistakes and forgive.
He'll teach them to ride,
Get them qualified,
And take them around at New York.
Then when they've matured,
The odds they'll ignore,
And head to the finals for fame.
Then when that one is done,
And the tears have all run,
He'll go to the next one in line.
She's just off a pony,
And a little bit scared,
This one needs plenty of help.
This year those old feet will hurt even more,
Time has taken its toll.
He's jumped more jumps than any horse should,
In mud and on pavement-hard ground.
And though no one has asked if he'd like to retire,
There really isn't a need.
When the braiding begins before it gets light,
When the roar of the van breaks the quiet of night,
When the gate at the Garden swings open wide,
And a young heart pounds with fear it can't hide,
To answer the question--retire or show him?
Just look in those wise and knowing old eyes,
And love him for all that we owe him.

--Joe Dotoli, 1983

MHM
Oct. 21, 2002, 05:38 PM
OK, that got to me! Thanks for posting that poem- I'd never seen it before, but I've known plenty of those horses.