Are North American breeders missing the mark somehow? [Archive]

HFSH

Mar. 7, 2002, 03:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by maggymay:

The difference was huge, particulary in overall philosophy. The QH and Arab people (all small farms except two) really knew their stuff on the breeding better than the WB people (three small, and one rather large and well known). WB People here are crossing crossbreds then claining that the offspring are comparable in potential to foals that have been line bred. They might be nicer individuals BUT you cannot evaluate them the same way as babies as you can a horse whose family and its talents are well known.

Over and over: 1/2 Han mare out of their OTTB bm, who gets a premium rating. Great. Then they breed it to a crossbred stallion, maybe an ID cross or a Han/TB cross. Then they claim the baby as comparable as an Han or Irish bred. NO ITS NOT. It's 1/2 American TB, and half the time the mares breeding is only presented in vaguest detail unless you probe, ie "oh she has Northern Dancer lines", preferring instead to go on about the sire, or in some cases the stallions sire. And the mares aren't even broke. I did not see one QH person who claimed their BM had "a good temperment" b/c she came over to the fence looking for treats when we walked by, whereas I heard it twice from WB breeders. I mean, come on /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Twice they couldn't find the mares papers and faxed them later. PLus it pi$#%%d me off.

The QH and Arab people on the other hand were upfront with photocopies of the mare pedrigrees, assuming we would know the studs (but they had that too). They discussed the mares acheivements, their siblings acheivements and even had pictures/videos. They talked about known crosses and outcrosses and generally treated us like the knowledgeable horsepeople we were.

There are obviously some great breeders here, breeding truly fabulous horses, but the local small breeder where so many people in Europe get their horses are simply not up to snuff here on their customer relations.

I also think if they dropped the imported stallion trends and concentrated on breeding to locally known horses they would sell a heck of a lot more. Just my $.02 but if I consistently get beaten in the ring by your wonderful mare, who is evantually bought by a local breeder and bred to a stallion I have also seen and like I am going to want to own that foal a LOT. I will breed my mare to the stud I know b/c I know his whole family and the worst of them is still a pretty nice horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. There are a lot of WB breeders who are totally ignorant of breeding. I have a ton of books on bloodlines, I save magazines from 20 years ago, etc. I'm constantly trying to stay on top of bloodlines. The problem arises when you have 20+ different WB breeds. I am most familiar with Holsteiner, Hanoverian, and Oldenburg bloodines as well as TB bloodlines. I'm relatively new with Dutch and am only familiar with about 2 generations. If I were dealing with only one breed, I would feel more secure in knowing 7 generations of breeding. I'm familiar with my stallions breeding past 6 generations.

I think it is unfair to criticize the TB in modern WB breeding. The problem arises when people breed a TB mare because she is cheap and she has a uterus.

The most successful Warmblood stallions in the past century were 1/2TB: Landgraf, Lord, Cor de la Bryere, Furioso II, Sandro, Paradox, Pik Koenig. All were by TB sires.

If we have ignorant mare owners that continue to purchase TB mares that are of poor quality, it is up to the registries to evaluate these mares and turn them down--like the Hanoverian registry does.

The two broodmares I own, one is F1 (1/2 TB) and one is 1/4 TB. Most likely I will never own another TB broodmare. Not because I wouldn't own one, but because it is VERY difficult to find a top quality TB mare. I love the TB influence. I loved my recently deceased premium TB mare. She was very consistent in what she passed along to her offspring.

I used to send copies of my horses' pedigrees when sending out videos. I don't anymore because 99.9% of the people looking had no idea who any of the horses on the pedigree were! If it is requested, I send a copy.

Hopeful Farm Sport Horses -- Home of the licensed RPSI stallion, Remarkable.
http://www.hopefulfarm.com

mbp

Mar. 7, 2002, 03:28 PM

I too think it is unfair to criticize the use of TBs per se in NA breeding. I think one of the big problems, which set us back a few steps, is that originally when a NA breeder did use a TB mare, they tended to use the clunkiest warmblood available - or used that with the offspring. While Europe was breeding typeier and typeier, we were not breeding our TB mares to type here. I don't think that was a good decision necessarily.

I do think it is a problem to be breeding mares you don't want to ride. If you don't want to ride the mom - why would she give you a foal you want to ride?? So that is a very legitimate criticism.

And while our US costs are high, I don't think we can hide behind that - I think we have to bite the bullet and determine whether we can be competitive on the economic front - if not we have to be realistic.

By far our biggest problems, IMO, are that 1)we do tend to overprice weanlings; 2)we don't have good concentration of breeders for buyer or good concentrated venues (this gets me back on my regionalization soapbox - already nuff said there) and 3)BIGGEST PROBLEM IMO - we don't have a good economic way to get horses started and get show miles on them without it costing a fortune.

Getting a young horse on the ground and keeping it in the typical pasture setting is much cheaper in Europe AND getting a horse started under saddle and shoing is much cheaper.

So in addition to my regionalization soapbox, I have an infrastructure soapbox. Friend from Germany and who go to visit constantly comment on how many stables and trainers and instructors are available. We will have to address this issue. We don't have this in most areas of the country. We worry about marketing a lot - but we should be equally or more concerned about infrastructure. Instead of building it and worrying about whether they come - "If you build it they will come" we worry about getting everyone on the bandwagon before we have bandwagon.

"If you don't build it - will it matter if they come?"

Lack of infrastructure is a big reason we have such problems with developing riders, trainers, having competent development of young horses, etc. So this is not just a breeder's issue, but an overall development of the sport issue IMO.

Love my TB mares and am very happy to ride them too!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But we need a way to start horses that is not so costly as 600/month plus 800/month show expenses.

Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure.

Hephaistion

Mar. 7, 2002, 03:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jr:
It is often the case, that it is cheaper to get horse in Europe than in the states.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! This is one of the things I was thinking about when I asked if foals were overpriced. That same $15,000-$20,000 for a foal could get me something going from Europe! (although probably not including shipping etc).

I also totally agree with both posters who mentioned that in many cases just "any old mare" is being bred. I realize that is not always the case, but too often I see ads for really odd mixes like "hannoverian/morgan" or "dutch/qh/arab" and the like. And having seen some of these first hand while helping a friend look for a horse - they are NOT good crosses. And dare I say it, not what the "A" level h/j riders are interested in.

Maybe I am a snob, but I would more than likely go to Europe for my next horse. Although there are some nice horses being bred here, they are still not as nice as some of the imported ones I've seen AND the nice ones here are insanely expensive /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its too bad so many are over priced as there certainly are some nice ones, but I'm not paying $30,000 for a 3 year old or $50,000 for a 4 year old that has done nothing but look pretty.

Out of curiousity, why do some breeders cross their nice stallions on top of clydes, morgans and quarter horses? While they are all super breeds on their own, none were bred specifically for sporthorse purposes, and using them to make sporthorses seems rather incongruous.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 8, 2002, 08:09 AM

This is one of those subjects that causes breeders to climb the soapbox....

Price appears to be a huge factor in the European vs American horse purchases. The dollar is still doing well against the european currency, because countries like Germany have been in the economic dumper longer than the US.

The cachet of owning an imported horse is also a factor, even still. There is still the supposition of quality with imported horses, the grass is greener, snob appeal, or whatever it is.

Fact is, many American breeders are doing just great in producing good horses. The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality if better HERE.

Not all of us breeders are ignorant of bloodlines or follow the path of grabbing the cheapo TB mare to cross on a WB stallion, to bootstrap our ways into the WB market. Many of us realize that usually the preferred cross of TB or Arab into WB is to put the blood on top. Most people who have bred for any great length of time also see that the mare has more influence over the quality resulting foal than the stallion, assuming a good mare and good stallion to begin with. Why exactly the genetics work that way I do not know, but I have seen it over and over. Many of us breeders have invested significantly in excellent breeding stock on which to found our breeding operations.

At the risk of sounding snobby, as a breeder who is doing her utmost to make good crosses and produce excellent foals, it becomes very tiresome that many typical shoppers do not really know what they are looking at. When they are comparing so many horses that are all advertised as "FEI potential!" and "stallion prospect!", and don't have the knowledge to discern between these prospects and realistically make their own calls, the supposition seems to be that the cheapest "FEI prospect" is the price to beat, those above are over-priced, and something from Europe is intrinsically worth more.

I know this is a point of contention, but generally Europeans do not really let the best horses go. They will not sell their top breeding stock or competition horses without other motivations. I know of one person in Germany who has taken heat in Germany for her part in arranging the export of a highly credentialled and promising horse.

Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses because of the rarity factor of WB's, the fact that part WBs are advertised as WBs and dilute the market, and the fact that it is extremely expensive to produce and raise a horse here.

Now that US breeders have made such strides in improving the quality of our warmbloods, I ask that people with money in hand do not shoot us in the feet by buying elsewhere. If you drive the good, conscientious breeders out of business, all that will be left to buy are the horses that can be made more cheaply (ie, with cheap mares, often OTTB). Support America by buying American! When the Euro rises against the dollar, and it is cheaper to buy here, what will be available if our breeding standards fall?

For those of you ready to buy an unstarted prospect, please give US breeders a chance. In fact, come look at my horses! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ingrid
Tannenwald Trakehner

Breeding American Trakehners -
European Engineering, Made in America

Hephaistion

Mar. 8, 2002, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality if better HERE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not quite the right statistical look at it. The science of averages indicates that a smaller test group will yield a higher percentage than a larger group. There are fewer horses here, so the average number of good ones will be higher. There are more warmbloods in Europe, so the average will be lower. It does NOT mean that the horses here are better. Sorry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I also disagree with. Prices are high here in general, not just for the top quality ones. I have seen some not so nice homebred warmbloods being offered for sale for large sums of money. As an owner of a St.Pr. Hannoverian mare I am quite familiar with quality!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Someone on my other thread mentioned that these prices were a reflection of the breeder's "dream horse" and I tend to agree with that. I think in many cases the reality is quite different.

Call me cynical if you like, but I have just seen too many over priced horses.

mbp

Mar. 8, 2002, 10:15 AM

well, I put on my TB mare hat again, the one with the ears pointed straight back! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

First though - saying that it is expensive to raise a good foal here in the US does not address the buyer's issues - if the foals are so spread out here and are more expensive and are harder to locate - why shouldn't they go to Europe?

Saying that they should sift through the plethora of ads and videos and discern for themselves the difference does not address their question. Why not just go to Europe to get a good concentration of nice foals (with some duds too but all in easy distance of each other) to pick from? I think weanlings here are overpriced - in part because of stud fees. This tends to equalize out later, but not if the breeder at 3 or so has to put in expensive training fees because there are no good economic options available. And the high cost of showing does not help equalize out the costs for miles either.

But the answer to the high costs is not to tell the buyers to just stay home and pay more. Instead the breeders need to be realistic on weanling and yearling prices, put pressure on stud fees, and then work together for sensible training and sales venues. It is not the buyer's fault or problem - it is our (the breeders')problem. We have to be the ones to fix it if we want our business to succeed.

I completely do NOT buy into the "only proven approach is the blood on top" theory. Baloney boogers.
1)Every great TB stallion that you are putting on top had blood on the bottom too /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
2)I suppose every filly that resulted from your blood on top crossing should have been rigorously culled from the breeding population in Europe because now, heaven forbid, the blood is coming in on the bottom. Funny the Europeans didn't notice that and follow that system
3)Warmblood mares in Europe were big coarse farm horses by and large - they could not import a whole new mare base to replace their rather inappropriate sporthorse models, so as united regional registries that recognized what their regions needed, they brought in refining stallions to refine their coarse mares. How in the world can this be genetically extrapolated to saying that you cannot get a nice horse using a TB mare because the blood has to be on top - don't think there is any logical nexus or reasoned support for this, although it is a popular phrase to drop when you want to sell European mares
4)Heaven forbid that we should attempt to utilize a breed in our breeding programs that has never done anything but excell for us in competition (Gem Twist, Touch of Class, Bally Cor, Sloopy, Jet Run, Keen, Idle Dice.....) Everyone knows, you destroy a breed when you use ol OTTBs like Ladykiller and Furioso in your breeding approach. I don't mind being the unpopular one here - I think we have a FAR superior mare base, with our crummy TBs, than the Europeans had - I guess the fact that they are breeding more and more for a modern horse that looks more and more TB means that they have realized that TBs are useless in any breeding effort. HMMMMM. Balderdash. The issue is not whether the mare is a TB or even, heaven forbid, an OTTB, but whether the mare is a nice performance animal, with TRY.
5)Gee, get 100 foals from a stallion, 40 really nice, 40 ok and 20 crappy, and the stallion is thought to be pretty good - get one bad foal from a mare and she is junk? Numbers will never support the TB mare bc you get more to pick from with the stallion
6)What were we thinking breeding those mares to old, old, old fashioned stallions? The stallions the Europeans wanted to get rid of, because they were moving on to a different, more modern style. So we went backwards, not forwards, breeding our mares- not to similar modern types of stallions, but to oldfashioned tankers. Duh. THis is not a resounding success. This is not the mare's fault though.
7)REally believe in putting the blood on top - fine, lets get rid of all the warmblood stallions - obviously they just won't work out. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
8)while we have been busy taking the blood out of our domestic horses so that our riders don't have to bother to learn how to ride - the shining international stars are riding, hot, hotter and hottest. Why? Because they can and that is what wins for them. Our problem isn't our horses, it is that once upon a time, you used to be able to say about a TB horse that it needed an American rider, not a German or Germanic "tough" ride. Now, the only ones who seem able and willing to ride the hot horses are the Europeans (with a nod to South American jumper riders too) We need to kick bu** and put some finesse back in our riders, so they are good enough for our horses.
9)YOu will never have an economically competitive domestic product with a constantly imported mare base. The Europeans knew bettter than to try that and we should too. Econ 101.

OK, Icould go on but I need to stop. I don't mean to be nasty - but somehow no one ever seems to worry about saying nasty things about our TB mare base and my girls are like, well, my girls.

BTW, the Eurpopean girls don't shave under their arms. I don't want to do everything like the Europeans. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 8, 2002, 10:17 AM

My breeding animals are very carefully selected from top bloodlines. I have an Imported Hanoverian (mother is SPS), a Dutch/Hann cross, a Dutch/TB cross, and a TB mare. ALL have produced foals that have done very well at Dressage at Devon in open classes - 30 to 40 in a class against the imports. My mares have produced 2 - 3rd place colts, + a 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th place foals. (The 11th out of my TB mare by Nevada was in a class of 42 and placed higher than an imported filly that I recently saw advertised at $20,000.) I sold my filly for $5000.

Unlike several of the top farms, I only have a few foals per year and usually take them ALL to Devon, not just the best couple out of 20 to 50? Most of the time, they have placed TOP 10. One 3rd place colt, the 7th, 9th, and 10th were also handled by a girl that boards at my farm and had never handled before. My foals also have been younger than most as my 2 3rd place colts were 3 and 3 1/2 months. The 11th place filly was not even 3 months.

I consistently produce this quality because I have done my homework. There are lots of excellent horses being bred in the US and wonderful bargains here at home.

I also think we are making a HUGE mistake breeding lighter and lighter horses. Yes, Nicole Uphoff may be able to win double golds on them, but the reliable ones like Goldstern performed wonderfully too. I want a horse with true suspension, and power. I think there needs to be all kinds. I watch the Hanoverians license very TBy stallions that move like TBs, and then later award Champion foal to a Gold Luck baby that is an absolute tank. Why? Because NONE of the "modern" type foals can move like that. DUH! Maybe a little common sense here?

One of the best Ammateur Dressage riders I know rides and owns a huge, older type 6 year old Hanoverian. She didn't buy the "thud monster" because she can't ride, but because she loves riding the suspension, and rhythm of the older type - loves the brain and phenomenal gaits.

Everyone wants a pretty head, but when I see a stallion advertised covered in sweat, veins popping out, and eyes wild , I RUN!!!

Flame suit on!

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Mar. 08, 2002 at 02:35 PM.]

El Grande Stimpendo

Mar. 8, 2002, 11:05 AM

Spot -

I think its mostly a matter of Sport Horse breeders in Europe having a cost advantage. In Germany, there are a variety of govt programs that subsidize horse breeding just like we subsidize Dairy farming in NA. Also, Western riding, TB & Harness racing are conducted on a much smaler or negligble scale in Europe, so there are fewer competing forces driving up the price of horse-breeding resources (mostly land).

Over here, it doesnt help that breeding classes are geared toward picking 'all round' performers instead of horses that will excel in a particular discipine.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 8, 2002, 11:37 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality is better HERE.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by Jair:

That is not quite the right statistical look at it. The science of averages indicates that a smaller test group will yield a higher percentage than a larger group. There are fewer horses here, so the average number of good ones will be higher. There are more warmbloods in Europe, so the average will be lower. It does NOT mean that the horses here are better. Sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please elaborate on this. Barring a very small and statistically worthless sample, I missed this phenomenon when I took Probability & Statistics. And even when running isolated chemistry trials, statistically 3 samples was the best balance of statistical reliability and time efficiency, so how large of a sample is needed to show true "averages" may not be so high at all.

______________________________________________
quote: Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses
____________________

That I also disagree with. Prices are high here in general, not just for the top quality ones. I have seen some not so nice homebred warmbloods being offered for sale for large sums of money. As an owner of a St.Pr. Hannoverian mare I am quite familiar with quality!!
______________________________________________

I apologize for a lack of clarity here. I was defending pricing for TOP QUALITY foals, not saying that only top quality ones are priced high.

Indeed, I think the problem--and what drives a lot of people overseas--is too often seeing overly high prices for mediocre quality. Buyers who can tell quality when they see it get tired of sifting, and buyers who can't shoot for the lower prices. And a lot of that mediocre quality comes from a poor selection of broodmares and/or a poor match of a given mare with a stallion. Not to say every OTTB is trash, not at all, but the majority of track-bred TBs do not have warmblood conformation (ie, built downhill, lownecked, etc). I certainly am not saying TBs are good for the track or nothing -- very few top eventers achieve that level without good TB blood. I still maintain that the average race bred filly is not an ideal sporthorse breeding prospect.

_______________________________________________

quote by mbp:

First though - saying that it is expensive to raise a good foal here in the US does not address the buyer's issues - if the foals are so spread out here and are more expensive and are harder to locate - why shouldn't they go to Europe? Saying that they should sift through the plethora of ads and videos and discern for themselves the difference does not address their question. Why not just go to Europe to get a good concentration of nice foals (with some duds too but all in easy distance of each other) to pick from? I think weanlings here are overpriced - in part because of stud fees. This tends to equalize out later, but not if the breeder at 3 or so has to put in expensive training fees because there are no good economic options available. And the high cost of showing does not help equalize out the costs for miles either. But the answer to the high costs is not to tell the buyers to just stay home and pay more. Instead the breeders need to be realistic on weanling and yearling prices, put pressure on stud fees, and then work together for sensible training and sales venues. It is not the buyer's fault or problem - it is our (the breeders') problem. We have to be the ones to fix it if we want our business to succeed.
___________________________________________

From this it sounds to me like the breeders should just pack it in and not try to breed for the American market, unless they can afford to invest incredible amounts of money and risk then give away a good foal at the expense of production.

I think the only way to prevent large numbers of less than quality horses from flooding the market is to stringently apply inspection criteria. Problem with this, is most of the American wings of the registries are machines that need money from inspections for fiscal survival. If horses don't get approved, who will continue to present them?

There are enough people with pride and devotion to developing a viable American sporthorse to have founded registries to accomplish those ends. I am not for a minute saying I agree with their politics or approval standards in all cases, but apparently people think it is important to make competition horses in the US.

Even if a horse can be bought here for the same as in Europe, including import, plenty of buyers would rather have the imported horse for the panache. And with that philosophy, I don't know how the US can maintain a really good sporthorse base, and stay producing enough to be progressive and competitive with the rest of the world.

For all of the reasons to buy, and all of the problems with shopping, in the US, I don't have a simple answer. But I do believe that we will lose the ground we have gained in breeding if we do not support breeding efforts in this country.

_______________________________________________
quote by mbp:

I completely do NOT buy into the "only proven approach is the blood on top" theory. Baloney boogers

______________________________________________

Good for you. You are not quoting me. I can list several TB mares in the Trakehner alone worth their weights in gold, not the least of which is Arcticonius xx, dam of 3 approved stallions and 2 States Premium and Verband Premium mares.

It has been demonstrated many times in warmblood breeding that the TB/WB cross is more genetically reliable than the WB/TB cross, and that makes for preference in putting the blood on top. Notwithstanding mares influencing the foals, it is sensible for anatomical reasons to use a heavier mare and lighter stallion, in the interest of keeping the foals a healthy size for the mare.

The example of a pure TB having blood on top and bottom is not relevant, nor is the example using an Anglo-WB mare because it brings TB into the bottom. The issue is the first generation TB/WB vs WB/TB cross, the latter of which has been demonstrated as not as predictable from a breeding standpoint.

I am not trying to sell European mares. I do not advocate breeding every WB mare any more than I would advocate breeding every TB mare. I do not agree that our mare base is better than what is available in Europe. But for all of the good breeding prospects in the OTTB world, there seem to be a zillion more less-than-good that are routinely purchased and bred. Whatever your personal selection criteria are for your TB mare band, can you deny that there are a plethora of other people breeding non-broodmare OTTB prospects?

___________________________________________
quote by mbp:

Gee, get 100 foals from a stallion, 40 really nice, 40 ok and 20 crappy, and the stallion is thought to be pretty good - get one bad foal from a mare and she is junk? Numbers will never support the TB mare bc you get more to pick from with the stallion
_____________________________________________

Not sure where this is coming from. I would look at three foals by various stallions before writing an otherwise promising mare off as a good breeder. However, for all of the wonderful combinations that can arise genetically in each mating, and some excellent surprises where a foal has far out-shone both parents, those surprises are pretty rare. Generally you can see in a foal where each of its characteristics came from, top or bottom. So it is prudent to select only the most promising horses to try the breeding in the first place.

_____________________________________________
QUOTE by mbp:

REally believe in putting the blood on top - fine, lets get rid of all the warmblood stallions - obviously they just won't work out.
_____________________________________________

This is just plain silly. TB is added to WB to refine and add other good attributes. Putting the blood on top is a means of improving the WB base. Your argument seems to be from the perspective that the goal in using WBs is to make TB crosses, which is beyond left field.

No one is trying to slam every person who uses TBs in their programs. If you are a breeder scooping up cheap mares without regard to quality, in the effort to make a buck in the
business with minimal investment, you know who you are. No offense intended to anyone else.

While American women may have the Europeans whipped in shaving (and I have had some pretty icky experiences pool-side in Germany), I think we do better to drop the bravado and learn from the European breeding model. Not that I agree with everything they are doing at present in the evolution of the WB type, but they have been cultivating this kind of horse a lot longer than we have.

El Grande Stimpendo

Mar. 8, 2002, 11:50 AM

O yeah I forgot to add my .02 on the TB/WB debate.

I dont think there's an advantage either way. The only thing the different flavours of WB have in common with EACH OTHER is that they all have a whole lot of TB in their pedigree.

Hephaistion

Mar. 8, 2002, 12:11 PM

Tannewald said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality is better HERE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am not about to get into a whole scientific discussion on statisics and averages etc. - as that is my day job! But I guess another way of putting what I am thinking in terms of your quote, is that I find it very hard to believe, and I can't help thinking that the Director was just being nice. If the average of high quality foals is higher here, then where are they all now? Why aren't there more being ridden internationally etc? But then that goes back to the fact that the pros still buy overseas.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Thank you for clarifying your point about High Priced Quality horses. I do agree - the big problem is the poor quality ones that people think should be high priced /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I still tend to agree more with what mph and some of the others are saying more /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As someone who does have the income to buy a nice horse, it will be a while before I trust what I can buy here at home.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 8, 2002, 12:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
it will be a while before I trust what I can buy here at home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does "trust" mean? Think you are finding value for your money? Think you are finding equal quality? TIA for the clarification

Beans

Mar. 8, 2002, 01:20 PM

Sorry analysis was my profession. The average scores of US foals vs. European foals is just that the average of all those horses presented and evaluated. It's not a statistical sampling to render a norm or trend or range. Perhaps you were thinking "mean" instead of "average".

Regarding quality - it's definitely here and now the quality is coming through in our home bred fillies coming of breeding age and producing higher quality foals.

Why aren't these superior foals competing - well one HUGE problem is lack of suitable trainers. Germany, HOlland etal have farms that just specialize in starting young horses with a solid foundation. Here! Well we have to search high and low and then the cost is a killer. Here in NJ a good training barn is $1000 per month w/training. AND - we back our horses before they leave the farm because most of the training facilities are also boarding facilities. And believe me - THOSE BOARDERS - have NO patience for young horses.

Our homebred horses are moving up the ranks but it will be a few more years before that happens. Also - how do you even know if the horses were born here??? They seem to NEVER list the BREEDER on results unless it's an imported horse!

Our upper level Dressage riders seem to be allergic to riding lower levels - where Europeans will bring youngs horses along.

TrakHack

Mar. 8, 2002, 01:22 PM

I am not a breeder, only a buyer, and a buyer of inexpensive pleasure horses at that. I have no aspirations to compete beyond maybe Training level at local shows, and unless I win the lottery and become a sponsor for a under-funded rider, I won't be considering buying any FEI calibre horses any time soon.

Having said that, I have a friend here who recently bought a KWPN registered mare. The mare is about 15 years old, average conformation, below average temperament, and has washed out of being a jumper and then a dressage horse. My friend buys this horse to gain confidence at 3', or at least this is what she tells me (I'm already wondering about the purchase at this point). I received an e-mail from my friend the other day saying "Miss Mare is in heat, and the vet thinks she'll cycle again in March and then we should breed her in April. How do I go about choosing a stallion?" She's asking me this not because I'm a knowledgeable breeder or trainer, but because I used to work at USDF.

So. I debate whether or not to tell her that she's crazy and if she really wants to breed this mare she should wait a year and do her homework. Instead I gave her a whole lot of things to research, like matching her mare's strengths and weaknesses to a stallion that will improve upon them, like checking to make sure the stallions she considers are approved to breed for whatever registry she's hoping to register the foal with, like researching her mare's bloodlines and those of prospective stallions, like determining whether or not her mare is EVA negative. I told her there was much more to do, but that should keep her busy for a while.

Sigh. Why does someone decide to breed before determining if their mare is even breeding material? Why do mare owners automatically think "I should breed this horse!"? I own a mare, she has a lovely temperament that would be wonderful to pass on. BUT she is extremely lacking in conformation, and the type of horse I would like to breed her to would not improve upon her conformation. People willy-nilly tell me "You should breed her!" Um, why? Because she has bad heat cycles? I'm more inclined to have her spayed. We have such high standards for BS stallions, and I'm of the belief that the standards for BS mares need to be just as high. And my mare does not meet those high standards!

I do believe there are some breeders in North America who have excellent breeding programs and are consistently producing horses to rival most, if not any, in Europe. Unfortunately, the buyers in America, for the most part, have no idea what to look for.

Just my opinion, of course...

Well-behaved women rarely make history!

mbp

Mar. 8, 2002, 01:24 PM

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Not to say every OTTB is trash, not at all, but the majority of track-bred TBs do not have warmblood conformation (ie, built downhill, lownecked, etc).
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Well, I agree in part and disagree in part with this. I don't find a lot of truly downhill horses in many breeds. I do agree that sprint conformation (which is inordinately popular right now) is a low neck set. Not good I agree. I would also point out, however, that much "typical" warmblood conformation included no withers to speak of (a real pain) heavy thick necks that could be the opposite of supple and size that does not always comport with soundness. Not Trakehners, but many other registry base mares.
Much of the typical warmblood conformation was (and very often can still be found to be) work horse and not riding horse conformation. The adage that they just get heavier w/o regular infusions of TB, arab or Trak is pretty true IMO. Now, to what extent is heavy good?? Depends on your preference. The calvary remount program and the evidence of history (read some comments by researcher like Dr. Deb Bennett) indicate that a moderate size stays soundest. Not 17.2 and 1800 lbs. The size more typical of a TB.

I love warmbloods too - not a lot of horses I don't like and respect for their unique contributions, but what they have learned in Europe in large part revolves around what has been necessary when taking a non-riding horse broodmare base and convert it into a riding horse base. That is why I think we need to solidly think through the "European" approach before making blind application here.

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I still maintain that the average race bred filly is not an ideal sporthorse breeding prospect.
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I would agree in part again - the "average" race bred filly is not even an ideal race prospect. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
My point is that we do have a large base of good quality TB mares and that it is economic to work with this base. Not that the "large base" is all or even the majority of TB mares. But a very very good selection does exist if breeders have a focus and if they have a focus on what they wish to achieve from the result.
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quote by mbp:

First though - [omitted text] - why shouldn't they go to Europe? [omitted text] Why not just go to Europe to get a good concentration of nice foals (with some duds too but all in easy distance of each other) to pick from? [omitted text] But the answer to the high costs is not to tell the buyers to just stay home and pay more. Instead the breeders need to be realistic on weanling and yearling prices, put pressure on stud fees, and then work together for sensible training and sales venues. It is not the buyer's fault or problem - it is our (the breeders') problem. We have to be the ones to fix it if we want our business to succeed.
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From this it sounds to me like the breeders should just pack it in and not try to breed for the American market, unless they can afford to invest incredible amounts of money and risk then give away a good foal at the expense of production.
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If it sounded like that, I don't think you read the last part of the quote. I am offering suggestions on how to address the situation other than just telling buyers to pay more here. My suggestions - realistic weanling and yearling prices. They aren't. Even for the nice ones. I don't care how successful the breeder and the cross, there just aren't that many foals in the world, much less this country, that are 15,000+ foals. A handful only. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif On this we may just have to agree to disagree, but IMO if we can't put nice weanlings on the ground at a price under 10-15,000, we aren't competitive. Not to say if you have an exceptional animal, or one you want to keep to get more out of as a performance horse you shouldn't ask what you want - but I don't see realistic pricing on young horses and breeders seem to tiptoe around on this bc they don't want anyone to say THEIR horse isn't worth its price.
Sales venues - breeders shouldn't hang it up = BUT, they should learn to work much better TOGETHER if they want buyers to stay her. That is a lesson we should learn from Europe IMO. The regionalization of breeders and the regionalized activities help them out. HEre we are so concerned with being "better" than the Hann or AWR or Trak or ISR or Holst or Westf breeder up the road - we are constantly fractionalized. If you are happy with what you are producing, fine. YOu don't have to dwell on the perceived faults of all the other breeders. Work with them anyway in joint regional activities. If your horses are good - they will do fine. If not, you will learn boatloads from the interaction. So will the riders and members of the community. Work with other regional breeders to find economic ways to get horses started and get some miles. If we don't, it will be cheaper for buyers to pick it up elsewhere. So by all means - do not hang it up. But work with other regional breeders. They may not produce what you want or like, but if they are sporthorse (or even only "attempted sporthorse") breeders in your region, work with them for sales and young horse venues and opportunities. REly on your own well thought gameplan for the success of your breeding program, but join a regional community of breeders to insure success in marketing the offspring of that program. We spend much more time in this country determining why every other breeder is clueless than in working together on a regional basis to insure the promotion of our domestic product. You don't have to like someone else's horses to work with them on auctions, shows, regional seminars, young horse training sessions, etc. We don't need to hang it up - we need to learn how to "play well with others".

Also, we need to recognize that not everyone wants the same horse. The poster above doesn't want the horse that will win double golds for Nicole Uphoff. OK. They want a floaty big tanker. OK. there is a market for each, riders who want each. There is a market of riders who want drftx field hunters. There is a market of riders who want event horses. A market of riders who want flat kneed hunters. We need to recognize that if not everyone wants to breed the same horse we do, it may not be just because they are breeding "junk" but rather that they have a different view of what they are trying to produce. Amateur/pro/jumper/hunter/dressage/event - not every horse fits the bill for everyone. But we have to educate the breeders as to the differences (so buyers do not have to read ad after ad of "wonderful dressage/hunter prospect") and work together regionally so that buyers have a base to draw from.

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I think the only way to prevent large numbers of less than quality horses from flooding the market is to stringently apply inspection criteria.
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Nothing against inspections (although they are not always words from GOD or apolitical), but I don't understand how the inpsections keep the horses off the market? And even "quality" horses will flood the market if they are overpriced and if buyers are buying in Europe in preference to the US.

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But I do believe that we will lose the ground we have gained in breeding if we do not support breeding efforts in this country.
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I agree that the efforts should be supported - by the breeders! (including me) We need to make the better mousetrap. Not tell buyers to just pay more for less convenience here because , well because why? Because we will lose ground as breeders? If we can't do it as well (which includes convenience and economics to the buyer, not just the product itself) as others, we need to fish or cut bait.
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quote by mbp:

I completely do NOT buy into the "only proven approach is the blood on top" theory. Baloney boogers

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Good for you. You are not quoting me.
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OK. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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It has been demonstrated many times in warmblood breeding that the TB/WB cross is more genetically reliable than the WB/TB cross
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That's the part I don't agree with though. There have been many more crosses of that type in Europe on the European mare base to reach the goal of modernizing and converting the workhorse mare base, with that type of result. I don't think that means it has been proven that using a modern WB stallon on a good TB mare is not as genetically reliable. Interestingly, the last 3 years I have seen a LOT of very nice horses and breed show winners that were either wb/tb, or wb on a wb/tb mare. Now if I say that I have seen that MUCH more here in the US than I have seen a successful US horse that is TB/WB, what have I proven?

Not much - because here in the US breeders aren't using TBstallions (hardly any approved here by the REgistries) and they don't have the broad straight wb base to draw from. So there are, after all, lies, damn lies and statistics. While you say it is more "proven" I could probably give you stats that here, in the states, the much more proven cross, based on successful progeny, is WB/TB. Cuz we don't hardly have the other. Saying that WB/TB is the successful cross as determined in Europe has the same inherent flaw.
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. Notwithstanding mares influencing the foals, it is sensible for anatomical reasons to use a heavier mare and lighter stallion, in the interest of keeping the foals a healthy size for the mare.
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Well, couple of things here. First the vets will tell you this isn't the case - and they will cite the draft/pony cross studies. I dunno. But I will say that if you are using very disproportionate mare/stallion crosses, like draft/tb, I might well agree. but why would we do that when there are many much more similar much more "type to type" crosses available? I think the use of the tanker with the TB mare is not a good idea - I may not have made that clear.

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The issue is the first generation TB/WB vs WB/TB cross, the latter of which has been demonstrated as not as predictable from a breeding standpoint.
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How demonstrated? That is my point.

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I do not agree that our mare base is better than what is available in Europe. But for all of the good breeding prospects in the OTTB world, there seem to be a zillion more less-than-good that are routinely purchased and bred.
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I don't know if better or worse - as opposed to different - is my point. And a different mare base requires a different approach in stallion selection. I will agree lots of less than good mares, from my point of view and for what I want, are routinely purchased and bred. Goals differ. If your point is that breeders are actually using horses that are inappropriate for their own goals (be that a flat knee mover, a solid field hunter, a dressage horse for 5'-5'9 women, a jumper for 6'2 men, etc.) then I would say I don't have enough information, but I do think having our breeders participate in solid regional organizations would help to eductate them and it will take a lot of *education* for me to drop the TB mare or the wb/tb cross mare out of my consideration as inappropriate. I won't say it won't happen, but it will take a lot.
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Whatever your personal selection criteria are for your TB mare band, can you deny that there are a plethora of other people breeding non-broodmare OTTB prospects?
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NOpe. And I see lots of ocd ridden wb roarers bred too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif "Hot" trakehners like Peron /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And I see QH people trying for a low necked barrel prospect using sadly inappropriate distance bred TBs. Gosh you just see it all. ON THAT I bet we can agree. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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quote by mbp:

Gee, get 100 foals from a stallion, 40 really nice, 40 ok and 20 crappy, and the stallion is thought to be pretty good - get one bad foal from a mare and she is junk? Numbers will never support the TB mare bc you get more to pick from with the stallion
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Not sure where this is coming from. I would look at three foals by various stallions before writing an otherwise promising mare off as a good breeder.
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That is a well reasoned approach. My point was not well made - but it was that when there is discussion of crossing the TB stallion on the WB mare (as proven to be inherently better than vice versa), that stallion gets lots chances, and lots of different types and kinds of WB mares, and that TB stallion that had to survive much more stringent criteria than even a premium WB mare. When discussing the WB/TB cross, to begin to be similar you would need to look at numbers that don't exist, and also at the fact the the TB on top came from a different selection process than the TB on the bottom. Your point that too many bad TBs end up on the bottom actually demonstrates even more the point that this may predetermine the numeric outcome, more so than any actual genetic reliabilty.
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So it is prudent to select only the most promising horses to try the breeding in the first place.
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Agreed
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QUOTE by mbp:

REally believe in putting the blood on top - fine, lets get rid of all the warmblood stallions - obviously they just won't work out.
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This is just plain silly.
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Yes, it is. Agreed. It was kind of meant to be. It shows how drawing the black and white lines does not always work.

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. Your argument seems to be from the perspective that the goal in using WBs is to make TB crosses, which is beyond left field.
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Nope - but isn't that in large part what WBs are? They are not a breed, but a succession of crosses. And criss-crosses between registries.

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While American women may have the Europeans whipped in shaving (and I have had some pretty icky experiences pool-side in Germany), I think we do better to drop the bravado and learn from the European breeding model. Not that I agree with everything they are doing at present in the evolution of the WB type, but they have been cultivating this kind of horse a lot longer than we have.
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No bravado - I am not really brave. I think the Europeans know oodles about their mare base. Not as much about ours. I think the Europeans have developed a system to deliberately, consistently improve their mare base. Not so much ours. I think the Europeans have developed regionalization of breeders to an art form. We haven't. I think we can learn how to import their mare base and at a much higher cost and with lag time reinvent their product. They will be continuing to progress while we wait for them to invent. I think that is not the highest and best use of our resources and that it will not give our riders the best options.

I believe we have a very good asset base in TB and WB/TB mares and we better learn how to use it effectively. It will not always involve the same approach as the Europeans took with WBworkhorse and later TB/WB mare base. IMO.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 8, 2002, 02:59 PM

Must say the �****� division is a good idea�bravo on that one!

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I would also point out, however, that much "typical" warmblood conformation included no withers to speak of (a real pain) heavy thick necks that could be the opposite of supple and size that does not always comport with soundness. Not Trakehners, but many other registry base mares.

�. a moderate size stays soundest. Not 17.2 and 1800 lbs. The size more typical of a TB.
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My perspective is generally Trakehner, and it seems that the Hann & Holst, and Old, and Swedish, seem to be looking more and more like Trakehners. Used to be you could tell them apart almost as breeds (other than the Trak, they are in fact regional registries, not breeds per se), and now it appears they are heading more toward a �region of origin� classification.

The size appears to be common sense also, and since the trend in Europe is now to get away from the riding-moose, hopefully America will follow suit. Yet I can�t say how many women write to me saying they must have 16.3 or 17.0 hh of horse�it is still the fashion here.

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what they have learned in Europe in large part revolves around what has been necessary when taking a non-riding horse broodmare base and convert it into a riding horse base.
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True in some respects, but not so much for the Trakehner, which didn't really start out as a draft horse.

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My point is that we do have a large base of good quality TB mares and that it is economic to work within this base
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Economic? Maybe too much so. I can�t say it is best. I still believe in breeding WBs, and using TB & Arab for refinement. Making a heavier TB is not the goal I have in mind. By concentrating on TB mares, we wind up with so many � TBs that it will be tough to find a purebred Trak or a WB of true WB descent.

The addition of TB to the Trakehner has always been done carefully and with consideration, the blood added and results evaluated, then repeated or culled. The heavy use of TB on the bottom (which are great to get approved, since a money-driven registry can approve a bunch of those mares, collect the fees, and figure not much harm has been done to the total population in each case since the number of progeny is smaller than with a stallion) invites higgledy piggledy breeding that will leave less of a WB breeding base in future years. We�ll have to import some more European mares when all we have is TBs and heavily-concentrated TB crosses left.

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I don't see realistic pricing on young horses and breeders seem to tiptoe around on this bc they don't want anyone to say THEIR horse isn't worth its price.
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I agree with this to a large extent. There are exceptional foals, however, and it pains me when people make blanket statements such as I have heard like "There is not a foal alive worth $10,000".

So, granted, many are overpriced. How do you prevent that exactly? This is a capitalistic society. Everyone wants the going rate, and often the "breeder" lacks the knowledge to price accurately. Of course the buyer often lacks the knowledge to shop well, so it is a vicious circle.

I cannot really put in for regionalization as such. I believe in the auction or sale concept to bring horses together for shoppers, but American culture casts the auction as a place to get bargains, not to get great stuff at going prices. It is different than in Europe.

The times I have approached other breeders local to me about joining forces (heck, even asking what they had for sale so I could send a client their way) has met with tight-lipped suspicion. It is really a dog-eat-dog thing, unfortunately. Maybe I am just too cynical, but I think Americans are often in matters of business not up to playing nicely with others.

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although they are not always words from GOD or apolitical), but I don't understand how the inpsections keep the horses off the market?
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Goodness no, inspectors do not grade with divine inspiration. However, I think some controls are better than none.

The way the flood on the market will be reduced is that people may be discouraged from breeding unapproved horses.

While on that point, everyone who has an iota of WB in their horse (if the rest is Saddlebred, Appaloosa, or whatever) calls it a WB, or worse, the actual breed (Hann, Holst, Trak, whatever). People in this country have seen so much crap, and such crappy dispositions, that they don't even know what a good WB should look, move, or act like--let alone what each WB breed should be.

It seems to me that Americans don't want any restrictions on their breeding operations. The response to a failed breeding inspection is often to take their marbles and go home, presenting a horse to an alternate registry or breeding without approval.

Maybe if people became more diligent about monitoring which horses are advertised as Hann or Holst or Dutch or whatever... I don't know a solution.

I would be interested in hearing how such a unification of breeders can be wrought. Interesting topic.

Spot

Mar. 8, 2002, 03:34 PM

I couldnt be more pleased with the way it is going - lots of thought provoking thoughts on each side of the fence ...

True Story ...

Several years ago when I was doing a lot of buying and selling, I got a call from a lady in London, Ontario (which was about a 1 - 1 1/2 hour drive away from where I was located).
She had a nice gelding for sale, couldnt get anyone to even come and try him, let alone offer to buy him and they were now pretty desperate to sell him as quickly as possible.
His price had been reduced to $3500.00 and they would take pretty well anything for him.
I got him in and rode him and he was a pretty cute little horse, and I phoned her and told her that I believed he could be sold easily for around the $7500.00 range.
To make a long story short, a day or so later, I got some people in from London, Ontario to try him out, they loved him, got him vetted and bought him I think he sold for around $6500.00. They were tickled pink to find such a nice horse for such a reasonable price as "they couldnt find anything in London - it was just all junk being sold there"!
When I told his owner where the people were from that bought him, she got a heck of a chuckle out of that and got certain satisfaction from knowing that she got $3000.00 more for him than if someone had come to see him for $3500.00 or B/O while he was stabled in London.

Is this the same thing with NA buyers? Do they perceive the imported product as being better solely by virtue of it coming from "out of the neighborhood" or "out of the country" ? Is it the snob appeal aspect?

If it was financially possible, could NA bred youngsters be shipped to Holland or Germany and be regarded in a more favorable light by NA buyers solely because they perceive them as being "better" simply becasue they are there and not here?

To those posters that have stated that they would go to Europe to buy their next horse -why?
If the NA breds had lower price tags and were comparable dollar for dollar with their European counterparts in the same age and talent range, would they then be a more attractive option? Or - would you continue to make the trip to Europe because you truly believe that your $20,000.00 will buy a better 3 or 4 year old in Europe than it will in Michigan or Texas?

If the playing field was totally level - where would you do your shopping?

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

Peggy

Mar. 8, 2002, 04:47 PM

Just bought a coming three TB/WB cross that was locally bred (not very scientifically bred, though, I might add). Unbroke and ungelded at the time of purchase. Thus far, appears to have a great mind. Is a nice (but not international) mover with comfortable gaits. So, they are out there. Unfortunately for the girl who bred him (and had to pay to board him), I don't think she made much of a profit on him.

I've always been curious about the TB/WB vs WB/TB thing. Figured that the Europeans used WB mares b/c that's what they had more of and we in the US the opposite. But whether or not it makes a difference???

Fred

Mar. 8, 2002, 04:58 PM

stuff starts up. also when someone makes a blanket statement about European TBs vs American TBs, (there is a very long thread about this a few pages back) or, (guaranteed to make my eyes pop out of my head) when someone refers to Thoroughbreds as a "non riding horse breed". aaaargh aaargh
but I digress.
Spot's original question are we missing the mark is a timely one:
I just read a post on another BB and had a personal email from the poster, saying unequivocally:
1) her trainer WOULD NOT buy ANY TB - too hard to ride (thank you back there awhile ago who pointed out that it used to be the Americans who had the light riding style that suited TBs so well)
and
2) her trainer WOULD NOT BUY ANY Cdn bred horses,
period.
I can only wonder at the kickback her trainer is getting from the European sellers. (and of course the commission on the buyer's end as well) - not to mention free flight, wined and dined, etc. Sorry to sound cynical, but really.
With an attitude like that, we might as well all stop breeding, because when she said Cdn bred, she means NA bred.

But an excellent point was made earlier. We are not all breeding for one type of horse. There will always be an excellent market for a quality TB, or mostly TB, in the hunter ring. A horse with beauty, elegance, scope, who can make the line, jump 4 ft in style.
And in eventing there will always be a strong market for brave, fast, honest, athletic individuals,and if they have the movement to win the dressage too, then bob'syeruncle. Can you say "Thoroughbred"?
So, my feeling? Let this woman and her trainer go to Europe. I can't change their minds anyway. And neither can anyone on this BB. In the time it would take them to drive to the airport they could come to my farm, and at least 10 others in the area (including Spot's!). But they won't.

Unfortunately, when this happens, we have a self-fulfilling prophesy. We can't sell our horses to the top riders/owners. So more local - less likely to go to the Olympics - riders buy them, and they don't go to the highest level. Which then proves the point to some people that only European bred horses are capable of going to the highest levels. And the local breeders, faced with the never-ending work and bills, often just give up.

Thankfully, as I said, there is always a market for high quality individuals. I just had a call from a trainer in the US wanting 3yr olds and up by my stallion to resell as hunters. He had just sold one from the first crop on to Fla, and wants more. I don't have any to sell him, but the breeders do. and that is a good thing. This man is not looking for Olympic prospects, but quality hunters with the level head to carry an amateur.
At some point you can't breed for the market, especially when the 'market' is fickle, often uneducated, and just wants a horse from Europe anyway. The market in general is just too big, I think the best thing to do, is what Spot herself has done, find a niche and fill it. Or, in other words, don't try to be all things to all people.

To quote Shakespeare, 'to thine own self (and vision) be true..."

One of the reasons I got out of breeding TBs for the sales was trying to predict what buyers would want 3 years down the line. I decided to breed sport horses because I know what is good, what has the best pedigree, movement and athleticism. I have to believe I'm on the right track, and the success I've had so far is encouraging. I can't work this hard at something if I didn't believe it was right. And believe me, when things go wrong, you have to believe you are on the right track, otherwise, what are you doing it for?
So I guess the question might be not what are we doing wrong, but how do we change the mindset of the 'market'? That, I don't know.

and one more thing. I have been to Holland a number of times, and have seen young horses being raised on a postage stamp of a dirt paddock. Lovely young animals, but how in hell does that make them an athlete?
I bought this farm specifically for its long, huge rolling hills - to build up the heart,lungs, and legs of the babies I am breeding... only to have some girl who has never even lifted a muck fork tell me she "would never buy a Cdn bred".
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
okeydokey.

[This message was edited by Fred on Mar. 08, 2002 at 09:12 PM.]

Smiles

Mar. 9, 2002, 06:02 AM

Trying my post again!!! Info pop likes to delete my long post "noose coming out"!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Anyway as an American horse shopper I feel that u.s. breeders don't put an enfocis on training young prospects or spending as much time with them. Why, either they have to big of a program where every horse is not treated like individual or they just don't have the means. I went to a trak breeding farm it had a bigger breeding program, and they just leave there horses out in a field. They don't work with them and then when the hit 4 they add a 12k price tag and try to brake them. Now as a buyer I have a problem with this because youngsters should be handled every day. If you keep working with them than your going to have a more educated/well round young horse to start, and maybe they would be some what worth that price.

Also the u.s. horse breed feels that since their horses are "warmbloods" they should fetch a higher price tag. I do feel that if the horse is of quality then yes you should be able to get more for it, but I've seen manybe one of two high quality foals/youngster in the last 2 or 3 years of shopping that would merrit a high price tag. Thats one of my grips as a buyer. Prices are high and quality is lacking!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Beans

Mar. 9, 2002, 06:31 AM

Well if people are asking $15,000 for weanlings - I haven't seen it here in NJ. We price PREMIUM weanlings at $7500 to $9000 depending on the individual youngster. They are healthy, handled and when we wean they each get their own stall so they have stall manners. We don't advocate turning herds of babies out for a year or two and then trying to "cold turkey" approach to socialization. It just doesn't work - round pen or no round pen. We have excellent mares and breed to approved stallions with emphasis on temperament. So it always is mind boggling to us when we see people heading to Europe for weanlings. Unless you are looking for specific bloodlines that aren't here - it just doesn't seem worth it. The freight is expensive and many breeders have found it isn't a good practice to import foals under 2. The change in diet from Europe to the US seems to cause problems.

So where are the buyers?? Have a stunning premium almost black weanling gelding by Pablito out of a Premium OLD mare. Lots of chrome, pretty head, huge eye, short coupled - nice temperament priced at $9000 asking price. We pay all transfer fees, will help with shipping costs if not too much and he's 100% healthy & sound! Can't imagine the same product imported wouldn't cost more - PLUS THE COST OF THE TRIP TO GO FIND HIM IN EUROPE!

Regarding the TB issue. We've had some of our best foals out of two TB mares that are now 18 & 20 and probably retired from breeding. If we can find good mares with good bloodlines we will buy them. But they are harder to find. The TB's now are basicly fine boned QH's - built to spring and very downhill. It's hard to breed out.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 9, 2002, 06:38 AM

Smiles, certainly not doubting what you have seen. However, for every big farm that pursues a cattle farming type of operation (which is frequently a complaint about the large European farms), there are a multitude of small breeders who are conscientious about their programs and diligent about handling their youngsters.

From my own perspective, we produce only 2-3 foals per year on average (only one doted-upon baby expected this year). Our foals have attended births and are imprinted (not the super-invasive imprinting which seems so controversial, but they learn to accept touch, noise, and people in general). They are handled daily. They receive regular farrier attention, are on a stringent worming program, and receive routine vaccinations. They are fed a specially formulated diet, with a custom-mixed grain to complement their hay. Their vitamin and mineral intake are carefully monitored and balanced so that they have a minimal chance of developmental disorders. They are kept in healthy condition and at healthy (not ribby) weight at all times, without being fattened up to show-ring plumpness. They are raised outdoors with loafing sheds as close to 24/7 as possible to ensure development of good bones.

They are of excellent quality and our clients have been very satisfied with their horses, all of which have been purchased based on our thorough videos and candid discussions of each horse's character, ability, and conformation.

We know our youngsters because we work with them. They all have individual personalities and we are frank about helping our clients find a horse that matches their personality, and competitive goals. The joy in breeding, for us, is to raise a foal for someone in a manner in which the purchaser would have wanted to raise it themself. We want our babies to be placed permanently if possible, and that is only accomplished by providing a quality horse and being totally honest about each animal.

Please take a look at our farm website and draw your own opinions about our animals. Tannenwald Trakehner (http://atrakehner.com)

Spot

Mar. 9, 2002, 12:03 PM

A friend of mine just returned home from a horse shopping trip to Europe.
She, like most/all NA breeding farms, have large paddocks that the youngsters are turned out in either 24/7 or as close to it as possible. AS well as her mares and stallions.

At the farms they visited, total reversal.

The horses are turned out into this tiny mud paddock for an hour a day with 10 or 12 of their closest friends. One or 2 trot steps is all they can manage before they bump into another horse. No hay, no water, no toys - just 10 or 12 other weanlings or yearlings to try and avoid while they stretch (???) their legs. Then - back into their stalls for 23 hours.
1 stablehand for approximately 60 horses, so forget about the individual attention and handling one on one with these youngsters!

How does this lead to a better and more suitable show prospect?

No wonder the prices are lower over there - 1 stablehand to 60 horses and a small mud paddock that everyone gets turned out into for a few minutes each day!

I know too that the breeders get a subsidy from the government - XXX of dollars per every horse raised, so it behooves them to raise as many as possible, in order to keep the subsidies coming in.

Would be nice if we in the US or Canada could get the same sort of monetary relief from our governments!

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of uniqie coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

jparkes

Mar. 9, 2002, 01:43 PM

...that's what I've read on other posts from the past on European horses and how they're raised.
Now, if I'm not mistaken I read an article in PH a few months back, stating that the best suitable show hunter is a 3/4 TB and QH. Now, if that's the case, then why is everybody going overseas to buy warmbloods? Are they all for jumpers or dressage?
One concern I do have for the American TB, is that fewer and fewer are now being bred. Here in the NW alone, three tracks have closed their gates for good due to lack of funds or stiff environmental reasons. Breeders are selling off their stock, selling their farms, thus the beginings of a dieing breed. If the H/J trainers don't pick any of them up, they find themselves in an unfortunate fate...the canners.

Spot

Mar. 10, 2002, 06:55 AM

My husband works for a German company and part of the company's mandate is that they have new employees come over from Germany to Ontario for 2 to 3 months in a work placement program.
One girl that came over was a dressage rider and as she missed her horses terribly, we had her over for the weekend's and I took her to the barn with me.
She was amazed that:

a) we only had 1 horse in stalls that large (!). Except for the stallions and competition horses, all of the youngsters would share stalls. the stalls would typically be much larger - perhaps 12 x 20, but you would have 8 or 10 or 12 horses in there. They would take turns lying down, they would learn to respect each other's space and that is why -she told me - you could have one groom in Europe holding onto 8 horses whereas here in NA, you needed one groom per horse, because they were never taught to respect each other's space. make sense? I dont know ...

b) she was also amazed at the size of the paddocks and the fact that we had only 1 or 2 or 5 horses in there and they stayed out for such a long period of time!

Those were the main differences - it was an eye opener for me ...

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

Beans

Mar. 10, 2002, 07:27 AM

I went several years ago and traveled around the various regions visiting Verbands and farms. Some places were like the BLM holding areas out west. I suppose what bothered me is that the feeding process does encourage agression. Those bolder foals do get more to eat- so it is selective process. If you like agressive bold horses - well that's fine. The young horses aren't handled daily - except on the smaller farms. True the foals come into these huge holding areas with metal pipes like stancheons to stick their heads through to eat. Reminded me of our zoos here in the US. The worst are the 3 yo's that are in basicly enclosed very large run-in sheds. No turn out - waiting to be pulled out in small groups to start under saddle work.

I always wondered how (or if) they wormed these youngsters - with 110 horses in a group with no halters just an implant to tell their identity - I pictured some rodeo to grab one at a time.

We only saw riding horses and stallions in large stalls. Broodmares were only brought in to foal. Otherwise they were in large stalls together.

It's a huge business and reminded be in some ways of our cattle industry.

jparkes

Mar. 10, 2002, 10:24 AM

...we can go to Europe to see many horses in the feed lot enviroment, yet if one raises horses in that type of environment here in the US, they are shut down by the animal rights activists and enviromental nuts.
Race tracks have been shut down in our region because too many horses were on the property. Too much manure they say. The feed lots for cattle are under the same attacks. More land needed for fewer cattle. What does that do...it raises the costs, period.

Priya

Mar. 10, 2002, 12:15 PM

personally I was able to see lots of horses, I saw that postage stamp of a paddock, and many other interesting horse raising practises. I doubt that if someone came to my farm and we had some of these practises in place if a) anyone would buy from us and b) they would go and tell their friends/trainers/others about the practises of your farm and to stay far away. I swear you can use bailer twine for anything including fencing to keep youngsters in!!! and why we have so much space for our animals is beyond me.

On a serious note though some of the conditions were down right scary. At the state stud they had 20 give or take a few foals(I think stallion prospects) all turned out once again in a mud hole, possibly a concrete mud hole(although I'm not entirely sure) which was very small and I found one foal with an injured shoulder that had a gapping wound.....no big deal there. These little guys had no access to water, no hay, and no where to run and play. In the barns were a large shed with pregnant broodmares kept togeather and bedding is not changed daily, not even weekly at some places. I did see new born foals and those mares did have their own stalls. Stallions and horses in training had their own stalls but again the concept of turnout seems really not to exist esp on grass.....they have a sand/mud paddock out front. I noticed horses were not fed a lot of hay and straw was okay to feed(!). I noticed the steel bars that youngsters stuck their head through to eat and the more dominant/agressive foals got more and puched the others back. Foals are not handled.....ohhh boy its like a rodeo and I was told they need to tranquilize to trim feet(!). Some horses at the farm I stayed at are wormed concentiously while at another one I had to wonder. Prices IMO where high with foals being in the 8-12K usd range and at one farm the lady couldn't have given me the foals.

There were different practises at different farms and maybe going during winter wasn't the "best time" to see Germany, horses and horse raising practises....however having also been to Portugal to a training/show barn again horses were given no turnout(they honestly didn't even have paddocks), were kept in small stalls(although individually) and are not given free choice hay, minerals, or anything else like our horses.

I think there is still the mindset that Europeans breed the best horses. I saw some "nice" horses but I also say some "really nice" horses but to be honest I have saw nicer domestically bred(from domestic lines and TB mares to boot *yikes*) horses here at home and for less money. Shop around and you can find nice horses without import prices and we are getting excellent stallions to stand in North America(I mean not second class horses but some of the best). We need to educate our breeders, our buyers and also promote our own horses.....unfortunatly our horses often don't land up in the hands of the best riders cause we don't have the monies to send them and they are often going to buy oversea's.

Ok off my soapbox now,

Sarah

mbp

Mar. 10, 2002, 08:04 PM

I don't know lots about Trakehner lines (Mahagoni and is about it for me) but I have always liked pics of Kaspareit and recently Feurtanzer. So when I pulled up your website......

What a lovely Kaspareit foal! Congrats.

mbp

Mar. 10, 2002, 08:07 PM

Agreed.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 11, 2002, 03:18 AM

mbp

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
What a lovely Kaspareit foal! Congrats.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! Which one do you like? We have bred the world's largest collection of Kaspareit kids (we are expecting #8). Feuertanzer is also very nice, staying with the tall red-head theme.

Spot

Mar. 11, 2002, 04:50 AM

Buyers need to see past the carefully orchestrated performance that is perhaps (most likely!) put on for their benefit when they come to see and try out a green broke 3 or 4 year old over in Europe.
Ask to see the weanlings and yearlings whether you intend to buy one or not - see the conditions that YOUR 3 year old that you are trying out was raised in for the last 3 years of his life. How do the conditions that you see contribute to his future as a performance animal?

GGold is correct - if we did here what appears to be done in Europe a) either the humane society wuold shut us down and/or b) word would get out so darned fast about the appalling conditions at ABC Farm that no one would touch our babies with a 10 foot pole.

Yet - what, other than the cheaper price tag, makes it so acceptable for the Europeans to raise youngsters this way and makes it so acceptable for the NA buyers to purchase them?

NA buyers that have stated that you wouldnt buy anything here - but would prefer to go to Europe instead:

If you came to our farm and saw 15 shaggy 2 yr olds crowded together in a small mud paddock, and they were a pretty darned wild lot, but there was one you rather liked for $7500.00, and then you went next door to Tannenwald Trakehners farm and saw a lovely, well groomed, well adjusted 2 yr old that you also liked a lot, and the bloodlines and movement were pretty equal, and they wanted $10,000 or $12000.00 for their's , whose would you buy?

Geez - I wish I could remember the exact wording of this phrase but it boils down to the people that are shopping for price will wait for the oats to come out of the back end of the horse rather than buying them for a premium price before they go in.

Is it all part of the myth and the allure of waiting at the airport for your newly arrived ***imported*** WB, that makes you not see the forest for the trees in what horses are being offered right here under your noses? And makes you turn a blind eye to how your 3 year old was raised and in what conditions? Does thatnot matter to you at all?

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

Tippy

Mar. 11, 2002, 05:51 AM

When I was in Germany, Belgium, and Holland I did not see any of the horrid conditions you all describe, but maybe that has to do with the farms I visited. They were all very well-kept and cheap board! Granted the turn-outs weren't huge, but they all had grass. The horse I bought lived out 24/7 on grass except for a few times in a box. He knew how to w,t,c, started lead changes and jumping small jumps.
Everyone we dealt with treated you with respect and courtesy because they want you to come back! If you told them exactly what you were looking for then they showed you all the horses that fit your criteria. Not more, not lamer, not unbroke.
I have to say we did not get the same treatment in the states. Here, I constantly felt like someone was trying to unload some problem as fast as possible for an outrageous amount of money.
I got a better deal in Europe even with paying shipping! And no I did not do it for the prestige of having an import. The horse I bought has better training, better conformation, better soundness, and a better price than anything I found here.
Next time I look for a horse, I will try to find what I want here, but if it turns out the same as previous experiences, I will go overseas.

carosello

Mar. 11, 2002, 05:55 AM

<<Are we importing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate mares and stallions and producing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate foals, that the smart buyer realizes this and continues to go overseas to buy the first rate horses in order to be competitive?>>

I think maybe this may have been the truth 10 years ago or for the very uninformed types who let others make their decisions. But I see the movement at least within the breeding circles I am in to be the opposite. I have a friend who last year imported a SPS GOV mare for breeding. North of me is a Brillant Ring mare (this is very rare here for the States) and she has 2 foals coming this spring via ET. Myself I am importing a mare with foal and in foal this year. This is all in a quest to improve our stock...not just the stallions and certainly they are not 2nd or 3rd rate!!!! And this stock will go on to improve what we have in the US for years to come. I can honestly say that my imported sucklings price now is very competitive with what I see from horses already here...and it includes import and inspection in Germany.

But I also have a TB mare here and I see no problem with adding a little blood. I read somewhere an important statement that really stuck to me ..." everyone wants to see TB blood in the 3rd generation but nobody wants to put it there.." Wow now think about that statement,that is really laying it right down.
I also can say I have seen TB mares in Germany with Warmblood foals. The do breed this way but as they have fewer nice TB mares to choose from of course its not as well known. My own TB mare I have been told should be able to pass the AHS inspection as "this is what they are looking for" but she is already approved in another registry that I am very happy with. I dont think I could find a replacement for her very easily so I am hoping that she will produce the next one for me...this year we are expecting a colt (via ultrasound from vet) so we will try again with the same stallion for a filly next year. I never aspired to have a million mares, just a few really nice ones which I have now. And I have bent over backwards in the past to help amatuers purchase my horses (free board, payments) and as a small breeder having to compete with the "names" like Glenwood or Hilltop I have to have the best I can or get out!

Mar. 11, 2002, 10:42 AM

I agree with all of the posts that talk to the good quality of horses being bred here in the ole US.

This is the first time I've heard any negative comments about the living conditions and treatment of horses in Germany. And I do think that a lot of people are more interested in the status they perceived associated with horses from abroad.

BUT, that does not negate the factor I hear my peers cite most often for looking abroad or buying abroad. It is the $$$$. And the difference isn't just the exchange rate, although that is an important chunk of it.

Horses over here are selling at exorbitant prices. Childrens Jumpers upwards of $40K?? Green hunter prospects never in the ring $30K??. Horses showing potential for the bigger jumper divisions at $60K++

I have 2 nice horses, both imports, both comfortable showing at 3'6", both capable (it appears today) of going on to some of the larger jumper divisions, and both $25K or less. I tried to buy American. I couldn't afford to.

I'd be interested in hearing ideas from everybody about that aspect of the problem. I think a lot of it has to do with the commissions that get stacked up on many sales in the US. I know in my case, the difference between the horse I bought (from IRE) and the runnerup was a multitude of commissions that resulted in a sale price far beyond the worth of the animal. I'm not as familiar with all the goings on in the European market, so this may be a mistaken impression and that may be an element there as well.

Anyone have ideas on how to help our breeders get their horses to market economically??

mbp

Mar. 11, 2002, 12:37 PM

"Micky" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
He looks like the full package. I wondered what K put on the ground - I've never seen any. Micky is probably one of the ones to see! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Some other nice foals (I pulled up the "your next horse" tab) too. But from the pics, "Micky" seems to be pretty special. Congrat again.

mbp

Mar. 11, 2002, 12:52 PM

I think it is the breeders who have seen more of the young horse conditions - I think a lot of the riders are looking at 3 & going. The see the horse cleaned up, in a stall, nicely presented, and going with good basics. Sometimes the horse has been shown and has show miles(showing is easy and much cheaper in Europe). Not only do they see that horse, the see several others, all close by. Or they see them at a fun auction. They get coffee and kuchen and are treated nicely even if they don't buy a horse from that breeder.

These are some of the issues we have to address IMO. The European breeder has probably paid less in stud fee, less in "raising" costs on the foal that shares the 8/per stall. Then they have auction venues provided that are well promoted and attended. They have many good economic options to start their young horse other than the 800/month training fee. They have good inexpensive options to show the horse that don't have much hauling costs, stabling, entry fees, assoc. fees etc. that make a show a 500+ investment.

I don't think we can address all of these items without regionalizing (my soapbox from prior occassions) so that the breeders can make it more convenient, economic and fun to shop at home.

I also think we need to really work on the show and training infrastructure to address the needs of the horse community so that options are available for new riders, as well as breeders.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Mar. 11, 2002, 07:02 PM

mbp

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
"Micky" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
He looks like the full package. I wondered what K put on the ground - I've never seen any. Micky is probably one of the ones to see! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Some other nice foals (I pulled up the "your next horse" tab) too. But from the pics, "Micky" seems to be pretty special. Congrat again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, thanks for looking at star-baby! I have to confess, he is highly priced, but he aspires someday to step into papa's shoes!

HFSH

Mar. 11, 2002, 07:05 PM

I just received my "Scribe" newsletter and an article in there made me think of this thread. A lawyer discusses 3 relavent cases brought suit in America against Europeans for selling bad horses. REALLY good article, very enlightening.

It brings the attention to something I've always reminded people who insist on going abroad to purchase horses--if something goes wrong, your are no longer in America and not under American laws and it is very, very tricky if you are looking for legal recourse.

I recommend reading that great article. I could fax it out if anyone wants to read it (unless like 300 of you decide you want to see it...then we'll have to figure something else out!!!)

Smiles

Mar. 11, 2002, 07:40 PM

"Tannenwald Trakehner
Member posted Mar. 09, 2002 10:38 AM
Smiles, certainly not doubting what you have seen. However, for every big farm that pursues a cattle farming type of operation (which is frequently a complaint about the large European farms), there are a multitude of small breeders who are conscientious about their programs and diligent about handling their youngsters "

I know of a a few breeds that run small operation and do a fine job. There out there no doubt, but they are spread out. I'm from the midwest and I'll tell you we have to travel more then 3 hours in any direction to go and look. The farm I was refering to happens to be only about 30 minutes away, and for the most part is a nice facilty. I just didn't like the way they had all the horse situated. Atleast they seperated the fillys from the geldings/colts.

I don't know maybe I'm just a picky buyer. Also another grip I tell the people/breeder what I'm looking for. They show me horse either out of my price range hoping I may spend more, or they show me something I didn't want to look at example (chestnut mare 15.2h.) Just be upfront and let the buyer know> I won't waste your time if you don't waste my!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Spot

Mar. 12, 2002, 05:24 AM

I think you hit the nail on the head pretty well in your post.

There is no recognition, no awards, no accolades, etc given to breeders on a wide basis in North America. No one, watching that magnificent jumper in the ring has any idea what his/her bloodlines are unless you go and ask the rider or owner and even then - they may not know themselves.

I remember reading an article where the breeders of Next Milton were honored in several ceremonies throughout the UK for their achievement in breeding such a wonderful animal.

It would allow the breeders, even if they dont exactly get wealthy breeding show horses, to achieve recognition among their peers and would allow future purchasers to see what their dream foal out of that stallion, could possibly aspire to in the years to come.

The breeders are selling a dream to the purchasers of their youngsters, and once the sale is done, there needs to be a mechanism in place to ensure that that dream is kept front and centre in the buyers mind and vision, because if we - in North America - dont come up with the means to do so, the buyers will continue to flock to Europe where they can go and see the offspring of this stallion competing in different venues right across the country. And they will have that stallion's name front and centre in many areas because in Europe they DO believe in promoting their breeding stock at every opportunity that is presented to them.

I know, for example, that Beth Underhill's wonderful jumper Altair is related to Voltaire because so many of our announcers mention that fact when he has been competing, I know that Cagney is an Irish bred because that was mentioned in literally every competition he entered as the "great Irish bred Cagney", I know that Ian, Jonathan and Amy get the majority if not all of their horses from Europe because that is mentioned in every broadcast about this new horse that Ian just bought from Emile Hendrix, or whoever - but - I cannot recall once that a NA bred was touted in the same manner?!
Do the announcers at any of the shows ever mention even once that this horse ridden by Todd Minikus is by the up and coming young stallion XXX, whose name is starting to show up more and more in the jumper ring through his offspring?

Its a tough one - I do know however that the breeders have got to take the bull by the horns and not wait for someone else to do it for them, and get the names of their stallions out there, front and centre, for everyone to see

Off my soapbox for this morning! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

MsHunter

Mar. 12, 2002, 09:13 AM

I have read this dialogue with interest, and due to a lack of time, I want to only make a few points and move on. I think that when a breeder says we need to get the names of our stallions out there, I have a problem with this. It is only one aspect of the business. I am a professional and I am a breeder, I have high costs due to being on the other end of this equation. I own 4 mares that I breed, and I have a stallion list I breed my mares too. I hope I can have my own reputation by raising quality horses and work with knowledgeable and professional stallion owners that work hand in hand with my program. In fact, this is the only way it is going to work for any of us in the US.
Not every mare is wonderful, not every foal/young horse is spectacular. If you call me, I am not going to tell you that each horse is an incredible mover, with excellent conformation, and a great attitude. Gosh that would be nice, but it isn't realistic. Hence, the price ranges are different. I sell fillies for a little less than colts/geldings, etc etc etc. I think most breders who are professionals are realistic about what they ask for their prospects. I like mine, I personally don't care if they aren't sold when they are foals, and I sell them later. Gives me a chance to show them and then sell them. WHen you build your reputation you always have customers calling you to see what you have this year. Ask breeders like DARK HORSE FARM, Warioto and the like, they do alot of repeat business, based on honesty and professionalism. No one knows whether a horse is going to be a great 3'6" horse later when they are 2, and you know what? On the "AA" circuit there are so few GREAT ones that of course they cost a fortune. The 3ft market is much easier to break into, and lets face reality, they usually jump the 3ft when they are younger than when they do the 3'6". I dont have a problem selling fancy 3ft horses, I'd rather do that then sell a 3'6" horse that just missses. If people want to go to Europe and buy a horse jumping around 4ft at the age of 3 and and owning alot of miles and get 2 years out of it, that is their choice. Most of the pros I know that go to Europe are looking for GP prospects more so than hunters. Once we have more available WBs and crosses going to the hunter ring, people will buy our horses. I'd rather sell 2 nice horses a year and get accolades then 10 inexpensive easy to ride never win at the nice shows types. Sorry, that may be rude, but I am not in it for quantity, only quality. I think whether we are missing the mark is an unfair statement. Many of us have businesses that work quite well, and are quite content with our programs. I stay positive about what we have in the US. I think everyone else should too. Remember, you get what you pay for no matter where you are people just aren't stupid here or abroad.

Mickee Shaw Stables

Mar. 14, 2002, 06:41 AM

I'm not sure if I can add some light to this issue or not. But I have seen the same thing that Spot mentioned in her opening topic. However, Fernie Fox unknowingly and unintentionally (I'd like to think) offended me and all of the trainers in North America by stating that (I'm sure I'm taking it out of context) European horses are started properly. That is a mindset that has brought the USET down from it's Power House position.

Recently at the Gulf Coast Classic horse shows 4&5, I noticed a lot of recently imported warmbloods showing in the Pre-Green and Green Working divisions. They "seemed" quiet, jumped well, were eye catching movers. If you only watched the horses in the show ring, you were sure to be impressed with the quality. If you watched the schooling ring, you'd know how unbroke they were.

I'm not much of a person to go on the breeding of a competition horse. Either it can do the job or it can't. I'm sure there is merit to bloodlines. But to me, as a trainer, the merit lies in the performance.

I also feel that Americans, in general, do not know how to deal with warmblood babies. We grew up riding thoroughbreds off the track. It is only in the last 15-20 years that the warmblood has been introduced to the Equitation and Hunter rings.

Again speaking generally, warmbloods take a different program. They have to. It takes more of a hand and leg ride, whereas thoroughbreds take more of a feel ride. Thoroughbreds built our American style of riding more than any individual person. We tend to be quieter in the tack, more flowing and our equitation is usually better. It has to be to ride the "hotter" horses. Therefore we are not well equipped to deal with the European style that is necassary to ride the colder types of warmbloods.

Granted, warmbloods tend to have more power. More scope. So I can easily understand the desire to mix a powerful warmblood to a more sensitive thoroughbred. Thus creating a horse that can fit to the American style of riding. These horses can be found right here in North America. These types are an anathema to the Europeans.

I'm still a major proponent of the American Thoroughbred, although from a sales point, I know that the market for warmblood brands is much bigger. And when someone can say that they imported a horse, it makes them feel like the money was well worth it. Snob Appeal!

The horses in Europe do not cost as much here, unless of course you're buying something they wish to keep. If we could breed 6000 warmblood foals a year, our prices for warmbloods would drastically reduce. That's just economics.

Finally, one of the reasons that people are still going abroad is because our warmblood breeding program here has not fully matured yet. Not to mention the Oldenburg North America fiasco, the North American warmblood breeders do not have much validacy on their side. Although I think that the "European Shoppers" are missing the boat as far as quality.

There are a lot of points I have not addressed mainly because they probably belong on another thread. And if anyone cares to start a new topic discussing the ins and outs of registering and approving North American bred warmbloods that can hold dual papers with our own domestic registry as well as the European Verbands, I'd love to learn more about it.

Whatever happened to the slogan, "Buy American!"?

www.MickeeShawStables.com (http://www.MickeeShawStables.com)

Mar. 14, 2002, 08:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The 3ft market is much easier to break into, and lets face reality, they usually jump the 3ft when they are younger than when they do the 3'6". I dont have a problem selling fancy 3ft horses, I'd rather do that then sell a 3'6" horse that just missses. If people want to go to Europe and buy a horse jumping around 4ft at the age of 3 and and owning alot of miles and get 2 years out of it, that is their choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My observation is that you can go over to Europe, and purchase a nice young horse jumping 3ft. quite often for less $ than in the states.

My direct experience is that I can get an import 5-7 years of age, who has not been pounded into the ground, well schooled on the flat, and jumping 3'6" for less $ than in the states.

US Breeders are producing lovely horses, and they are selling to folks who have the $$. As an amateur with limited time, I need something started, not yearlings through 3 years of age. Many US prospects are priced beyond the means of many mortals by the time they're 4-6.

Many of us on a budget will continue to hunt for prospects overseas as well here at home until the US horse community can figure out how to get appropriate mileage on a nice prospect, and still maintain affordability.

Chaser

Mar. 14, 2002, 08:35 AM

Mickee Shaw Stables...could you expand on in what respect imported horses were less well schooled than their American counterparts? Is it possible that in some cases, it was just a communication problem, with the horses being taught a different system than the riders?

MsHunter

Mar. 14, 2002, 09:02 AM

Excellent post.

Question though? The WBs I have worked with from my clients that have come to my farm to show has been that they are sometimes difficult in a way different than a TB. Stubborn at times, an attitude, but quieter about it, whereas my experience with TBs is that as you said, a softer ride is necessary and they are a "hotter" type horse. This is exactly why I have started a WB/TB breeding program. It is in it's early stages for me, and the verdict is out, but doing
alot of sales, being ringside, training etc, I think I am going to be pleased with the results.
If I get a hack winner I'll be even more pleasantly surprised.

JR. Can you expand on your thought process about pricing? I want to think that maybe where some of us go wrong is by advertising only by word of mouth. You will hardly see an ad for one of my horses, normally someone expresses interest at a show, or has heard about what I have through another trainer and off it goes. I think that their are many price differences across the country and from state to state and barn to barn.
Also, I find it hard to believe a European import costs less with the expenditure to get it here adding 5K US onto the price from the get go.

I personally think the issue is how many horses a person can see in a day or a week. Go to Europe and you have given yourself a week-2 weeks with your trainer to find a suitable mount, I just wonder what happens after the trial period if you don't like it etc? Here, I send the performance horses out on trial with reputable professionals, including letting them take it to a show, before doing the vetting and making the final decision.

If a trainer could see 10 horses in a week here, typically they find something they like and take it home for awhile.

I haven't had anyone tell me my prices are too hight, but then again, sometimes when you have nice horses people make offers that you just can 't refuse. Not often, but it happens.

I think their is also a big difference if someone is looking for a horse to campaign on the "C"-"A" circuit and the "AA" circuit. I think it is great when someone decides to buy a younger one in the hopes that it will be able to go on the "AA" circuit. Rather than settling for one that they can afford that marches around and does it's job and can't rise above the "C" ="B" horse show.

I have sold MANY a horse as a youngster for under 20K now marching around WPB getting prizes. The unfortunate part, is no one is going to reveal their source are they? I can't take credit when they did all the training, but I can take credit for selling what I knew would be a nice horse in a suitable program in the right barn.

Mar. 14, 2002, 09:39 AM

Jane Ervin

I have no doubt pricing in the US varies region to region, state to state. (I grew up in NJ, teen years in IN, and now 15 years in VA)My observation about price I think is heavily influenced by the commission process.

I've seen some US breeders who are very involved in their young horses development. They do the ground work, break, put some flat work on, and take them to some small shows. In those situations, the horses are affordable and reasonably priced. But unless your jetting around the country, you need to be in the region to benefit. It also seems that many breeders do not take this approach.

Other US breeders like to sell their youngsters, prior to a lot of training. A great deal, but for those with limited time, an unlikely avenue to success.

Still others will work with professionals to train and put some mileage on. Showing and training is expensive -- and they need to recoup. Then you often seem to get multiple commissions --driving what may have been a reasonable price to start with, $thousands higher. In the end, these horses are either out of my price range, or less horse than I could buy if I could identify a prospect and work a deal without multiple intermediaries.

The key for many of us is identifying a talented prospect, without multiple agents involved. In both of my recent purchases, the horses were sent directly to the US by their European breeders trhough a single agent-- no multiple sales commissions. Also, the agent who did import went to one or more breeders nearly co-located, saw dozens of prospects in a single trip -- driving down the search expense. Then you have the help of extremely favorable exchange rates.

Could I have gotten the same quality at the same price with a US bred? If I could find the right horse, in the right sales situation, yes. But it is like a needle in a haystack -- with great distances. I cant fly or drive all over the country - no $, no time (I need to work a lot to support the wee beasties). The nicest horses (the ones I want) are identified early and sent to pros -- and eventually way out of my price range. Given exchange rates -- it was much quicker to find one I could afford the overseas route.

Beautiful horses are bred here! Perhaps it is volume. We breed nice ones, but they're snapped up. Europe breeds nice ones too, but perhaps in greater volume???????

This is my experience. But everyone's situation and experience varies -- so I'm interested in what everyone here has to say.

Freehold

Mar. 15, 2002, 03:36 PM

Hey while we are going on about the dollars and cents of things maybe the US buyers should be buying more Canadian stock!! Our dollar here is much weaker that the US dollar, the prices for horses are also generally much lower (maybe actually the same but in our dollars not yous so really half the price). Travel expenses here are relatively cheap and shipping from Canada has GOT to be cheaper than airfare from Europe. Plus the lack of quarantine time... I don't know, just a thought. We have some fabulous stallions up here and some wonderful mares having babies. It's worth a look. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JER

Mar. 15, 2002, 04:15 PM

This is a very interesting ongoing discussion.

One reason that a US buyer might get a better deal in Europe for a hunter-type WB is that there is NO special market for that kind of horse in Europe. 'Hunters' are an American creation and an American peculiarity. Because there is a specialty market for knees-to-the-eyeballs-over-a-small-fence jumping horses in the US, a good show hunter is expensive once it's on American soil. There's a good chance that the same horse in Europe would be considered a limited jumper without enough suspension for upper-level dressage.

Spot

Mar. 15, 2002, 05:21 PM

That is a very interesting perspective on this ...

I would assume that the market for jumpers that have a lovely bascule and spend a lot of time in the air doing so is not so great as those that get efficiently and quickly across the jump.
Plus - as you mentioned, if they simply dont have the scope necessary to jump the big fences, they are suited for the hunter classes which is a rather limited to non existent market in Europe.

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

Oakleigh

Mar. 15, 2002, 08:18 PM

I am a breeder. I have Oldenburgs, Holsteiners and Dutch offspring. I own no stallions presently. My travels bring to mind some points on the differences between Europe and USA.

It is definitely less expensive to breed in Europe. Stud fees are a fraction of those in the US. It isn't that the stallion owners here are making a financial killing, but that it is more expensive to campaign here, liability premiums are higher here, and promotion costs are higher here.

Europe DOES have some exceptional mares, stallions AND centuries of breeding experience and history to learn from. USA also has some exceptional mares and stallions, but unless we study their successful breeding philosophies (and their failures), we are just shooting in the dark. Breeders need to study and learn from successful models of breeding.

Raising a foal is less expensive in Europe. They have breeders and raisers. Raisers are set up specifically for this purpose. Board is less expensive there. Feet trimming is usually only a few times a year. No vaccinations are given. When one gets the snots, all get the snots. Foals are rarely handled, hence less labor required. I found several breeding farms where the care didn't meet my personal preferences... However, from these same farms came outstanding national and international champions. Hmmm, are Americans too emotional in their approach to breeding?

Europe has training programs for young horses. This is something we need to do on a regional basis, here. Anyone in the US can hang a shingle saying they are a "trainer". In Europe, it is very regulated and you know the trainer is tested and qualified. We need to have a way to get our young horses consistently started at a reasonable cost.

It is much easier to get some miles on young horses in Europe. Every weekend there is a show within a very reasonable drive. Entry costs are very low. There are spectators at the shows. There are willing sponsors for the shows. This keeps entry fees low.

There is much more interest in Equestian Sports in Europe than here in the US. It actually makes the newspapers and television! Here it might be a short lame report by an ignorant reporter (for the 5:00 news), more interested in his/her makeup and hair, than learning what they are reporting on. No flaming... I have been interviewed for television. I have seen this first hand.

The last problem is the distances that we deal with here in the US. A country in Europe is about the size of one of our states. An entire breeding region about the size of one of our counties. Farmers there meet in person to discuss their breeding philosophies. Buyers can drive to see hundreds of prospects in one day. Here, buyers request a video, then "diss" the horse and breeder based on this one 5 minute video without taking videography talents into consideration. The size problem is one we cannot conquer here, unless we establish regional training centers for young horses.... with qualified trainers, at a reasonable cost.

Just my humble opinion.
Pat
Oakleigh Sporthorses

fernie fox

May. 7, 2002, 12:11 PM

WE have just taken delivery of another really nice 6yr old from UK.
I will be travelling up to Maryland in November,I would happilly go and look at youngsters[6yrs.and up]that have GP.Potential,good breeding and training.
The warmblood craze has been around long enough that I would have thought there should be some nice US.bred youngsters out there.I am certainly not finding them.
I do expect them to be seen jumping a simple course and to pass a serious vet check.I am quite frustrated because I dont seem to be finding what I need here.But there must such horses out there.
Meanwhile am still shopping in UK.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

luckyduck

Jan. 17, 2003, 04:58 PM

I don't know about cheaper...but being so new into the SWB...I know that after my stallion died 2 1/2 years ago...replacing him with american bloodlines...proved IMPOSSIBLE! Not one...heck...he was one of what...4 palomino SWB stallions in the country as it was.

So...after all the looking...I am going with yet another line that is not HUGE in the States yet...

We are importing babies off of the late Opius...I have one from Induis (sp?) and Rambo.

I have ALWAYS bred AQHA horses and ponies, but fell head over heels in love with this one breeders SWB horses...am getting educated as I go, but I am a fast learner.

I hope our newest stud, will offer a good...fresh... dose of Swedish Lines.

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 17, 2003, 07:10 PM

There are some super quality foals/horses bred in the US. Unfortunately it is hard to separate the "wheat from the chaff". Serious, knowledgeable breeders with awesome mares compete with casual hobby breeders who could care less about the quality of their mares (but have the $$ to place ads all over the place). This is a great frustration of mine. Some people know how to market "anything" (regardless of quality). This is where US buyers get worn out when looking for a horse. There is very little consistency from farm to farm. Besides a few very large farms - WB breeding is in its infancy in the US. We are just "evolving" out of the great unknown.

Pretty much everything a dedicated breeder needs to learn - has to be done from scratch. Not just who to breed to whom - but care, nutrition, husbandry, showing young horses in hand. Even trying to figure out what market you are breeding for. Is it your taste (will it sell?)? Is it the amateur market? Is it the GP jumper market? Not every baby will meet your expectations - how do we deal with those foals?? Reality checks - are you being "barn blind"?. The learning curve is steep -and unfortunately many serious breeders spend more energy on the quality of their programs and care than on marketing/business plans. The nice stock is already out there - just no one knows it. FWIW I haven't seen too many 15K weanlings in quite some time - many super nice ones in the $7500-8500 range.

Europe is a well oiled machine for producing sport horses. The state and registries give lots of help to the breeders. They recognize the top youngsters and make sure they get into good hands - or get showcased as a top auction prospect.

We are just starting to see regionalized breeders groups that can showcase nice horses with "group" dollars. Hopefully in the next few years breeders will learn how to represent themselves - so that buyers can separate out the quality.

As others have mentioned - the cost of getting horses broke and trained is another "great challenge".

equescool

Jan. 17, 2003, 08:37 PM

I used to send copies of my horses' pedigrees when sending out videos. I don't anymore because 99.9% of the people looking had no idea who any of the horses on the pedigree were! >>>>> So very, very true. I have tried to educate myself about the WB's the way I was able to about the Arabians, but it is very difficult...mindboggling to try to keep track of all the WB breeds' ancestries. It has taken almost twenty years of study in the Arabians to feel somewhat confident reading a pedigree. It would take more than that for WB's for me.

nhwr

Jan. 18, 2003, 06:48 AM

Haven't read this entire thread, But I thought I'd ad my experience to the mix.

I was shopping for a horse 3 years ago. I live in California. I went to New York to look at a horse. I went to Texas to look at a horse. I went to Ohio to look at a horse. Are you getting the idea that I spent some $$$ on travel (not to mention the time).

I convinced my trainer and another friend that we should look in Europe because the prices were soooooo good. We used an agent (who showed us some nice but pricey horses) for 2 days and then went around on our own. I had contacted the Oldenburg and Hanoverian Verbands for recomendations of places to go. They each provided about 8 names and offered to drive us around and translate for us. I speak a little German badly, so we went on our own.

In one week, we saw easily 150 horses. My friend bought an 11 year old gelding with show results at GP special (62% to 66%) for $26K, my trainer bought a gelding that became 3rd level reserve champion in my state later that year for $8K. I bought an 8 year old mare with a good show record for jumping and nice gaits, mare test score of 7.38 and a full brother to a liscence stallion for $5.5K. These horses vetted well (friends' horses were perfect, mine small but acceptable issue). These horses are all still going strong today.

We have done this a few more times with the same kind of results. It is simply not possible to see so many horses in such a short amount of time in the US. The prices ARE better in Europe for the nice horse. The fabulous horses are priced beyond Midas' reach.

I think that there are many reasons for this. First horses are more common there, so they are treated as a commodity, somewhat. Second, most people who are involved have enough knowledge to know that even if they have a nice horse, it is not Pegaseus reborn. The breeders are business people. They know they must sell the nice horse sometimes for the cash flow to try for the GREAT horse. Third there are just more trained horses to choose from there. So the supply and demand theory works in your favor there. It works against you here.

I would love to buy in America, but the geography, the market and (flamesuit on) many American breeders' prices make it tough.

Alagirl

Jan. 18, 2003, 07:31 AM

I don't think it's the breeders, it's the trainers....

A memeber of a different BB just bought a new horse, n 8 yo Dutch mare.

He had been looking at a buch of domestic horses, characteria was under 16h, over six and trained to medium dressage - what he got to look at was either poorly ridden and/or overprized.
I have been window shopping, discribe breed as *Warmblood* and the prizes are horrendous, even for a draftXTB, not knocking those critters, but you get my drift. Add the fancy european stamp, and the $$$asked for rises to astronomical.

You can get a decent trained horse in Germany for what, 5000$? add S+H to the states at about the same amount and with 10.000$ you are still better off!
JMHO

HaltAtX

Jan. 18, 2003, 01:26 PM

A problem I have SEEn and often thought, when i was new to WB''s was "what's WRONG" with them (if they are priced *reasonabley*)

I know I'm not the only one, so it's hard... Because the prices have been stated so high to start with!

A Sport Horse breeder Of Color.

square halt

Jan. 18, 2003, 05:20 PM

I love this discussion, mainly because it IS a discussion. I have no interest in breed-bashing, it is not the point. I am a rider and breeder (teeny, tiny breeder). This past weekend, I was visiting an area where horses, wonderful horses were everywhere! One rider was on an amazingly beautiful and well-behaved stallion. He was simply magnificent. So.....being the rider/breeder type, I asked her the breeding of her horse. She didn't know! What she did know was that he was exceptional, wonderful to train and ride. In the preceding threads I agree that we need to educate the riders about bloodlines and the importance that breeding has in the performance horse world. Giving the breeding of each horse as they enter the ring would be so helpful. Through repetition, we would begin to equate names with performance. In that light, breeders could advertise using concrete info. And yes, I do believe it is very American to breed some pretty bad examples of a breed. Just look at what we have done to canine breeding: irish setters, german shepherds, rottweilers, etc. There is nothing more beautiful and dependable than a well bred thoroughbred, and nothing quite the opposite than the inbred careless bred examples we often see acting in eratic, mindless fashion. No, various breeds are not the problem, but shameful money-driven breeders are. As always, with a problem, the key is education. We can do the educating, but must work as one. There is nothing more damaging than catty gossipy breeders that carelessly criticize others that may do things differently. We are not in healthy competition if we are demeaning to others. I agree with Tannenwald T. that we should be able to collect and send clients to other farms if we have nothing that interests clients. By helping our area and breeders, we ultimately help ourselves and the buyers. With the size of our country, we HAVE to do something to make it easier for the buyer to buy! I bought my last riding horse from Europe because I had spent over $2000 on air fare going to see one horse here, one horse there, domestically. When I went to Holland, I saw over thirty horses in one three day trip! I think we can work through these dilemnas, and use our size as our advantage rather than disadvantage. But it will take cooperation, and breeders can either help solve the problems or remain a large part of the problem.

Spot

Jan. 18, 2003, 05:55 PM

Square Halt - what an excellent, articulate and hit-the-nail-squarely-on-the-head response!

Since I do breed for a very specific market, and am not a huge breeder, in many cases, by early in the year, I have sold out of all of my foals. I have no problem referring buyers to other colored TB breeders, nor do I have any problem in giving them contact information, telephone and email information for other colored breeders who stand stallions.

And yes - it HAS helped me in the long run - immeasurably so, and I will continue doing so in the future.

I truly believe if we can make our system "user friendly" to buyers of horses, then we can convince purchasers to shop and buy the North American product that is being offered.

If I, as a breeder, dont have what the buyer is looking for, and I can refer them to another breeder that does, then slowly but surely word will get around that NA breeders DO have excellent products to sell, and they are readily available, and you DONT have to spend mega dollars and mega time beating the bushes to find them.

By looking at the large picture and promoting NA breds as a whole (and not just in your own backyard), if you, as a breeder, produce commercially attractive products, buyers will start buying North American.

We are, literally, a hundred years behind the Europeans in their breeding history and structure. Surely to goodness we are also capable of looking at their programs, seeing what works, and implementing it back home within our own breeding programs and enjoying equal success?!

I am again very fortunate, that in my specific breeding program, I am not competing against the Europeans. Mine is a very specialized niche market, and all of the breeders (as few as there are!) are all within North America.
I truly believe that if the Europeans were to embark on a breeding program similar to mine, it would be THEY that are looking to my (and other colored TB breeders) successes and trying to emulate them.

Why can the Warmblood breeders not do the same and capitalize on the Europeans success ?

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sporthorses and Paints

ponnies

Jan. 18, 2003, 06:24 PM

As far as pony breeding goes in USA From a breeder and trainers standpoint i think we have a long waY to go before our quality is even close to what is bred consistantly in Wales, UK,Aus,etc.. There is no shame in importing the bloodlines of such carefully bred ponies. Over seas they DON'T sell a filly very willingly. The way to keep producing the quality they have is to keep their best filly foals for broodmares. WHEN THEy GET A REAL NICE STALLION its kept, or sold to another breeding farm. Here if its really nice ,its gelded for a hunter pony. So the best is in the pony ring not the breeding shed. In the past few years there have been some excellent young stallions imported,"Regency horse and Ponies" have the super welsh import "Menai Mr.Mostyn" and recently "Famly Partners Welsh" imported 2 fabulous fillies, AND A AWESOME Pal. Colt. CHECK THEM OUT! With top lines like these coming in we're taking the right steps to improve. In Canada also there is always a waiting line for filly foals. This is something we should learn from, not avoid. Importing quality for less is'nt so bad when you look to our future for more.

Perfecting Welsh/Crossbred's of Color at: "Crystal Acres Ponies " Major Fox, Foxen, All Dressed Up, Tower in Lights...[[This message was edited by PONNIES on Jan. 20, 2003 at 12:55 AM.]

[This message was edited by PONNIES on Jan. 20, 2003 at 12:56 AM.]

Celtic Witch

Jan. 18, 2003, 09:20 PM

Hmmm... interesting topic. Oakleigh seems to have had the same experiences as I have.

The last time I purchased a prospect for keeps was two years ago in England. I and my husband drove all over England, Scotland and Wales to no avail. Nothing suited save for one hurdler who was perfect but too hot for what I wanted at the time.

In the end, I bought a recently imported KWPN 2 year old stallion prospect. The biggest pro was that he was incredibly cheap for that amount of horse. I bought him for the equivalent of $6600, largely in part to his being approximately 200lbs undeweight (will go into that in a moment). However, had his condition been better, I still would have paid only around $12k whereas 2 year old geldings by this same stallion were selling for $30k plus in the US during the same month. Were I importing to the US, I still would have saved money buying in Europe.

The other pro is that he wasn't just brilliantly bred on top but was out of a proven (prestatie) mare who just happened to be what I wanted -mainly TB (French Anglo-Arab lines). The mare being equal to or better than the stallion is a major thing as I feel the mare contributes a good 60+% to the resulting weanling. Most WB breeders in the US are still utilising the readily available (and resultingly cheap) base of failed racing TB mares. Not something I want as I value longevity as much as performance.

There were no real cons to the purchase other than the fact that I thought he would top out at 16.3 and he's now 17.2+. I got exactly what I wanted for half what I expected to pay. He doesn't just move better than most, he floats. He doesn't blink at a 5'6 oxer. He was the easiest horse I've ever started. His temperament is so wonderfully laid back that people who meet him for the first time are amazed he's entire.

Now, what I don't like is that despite having a highly reputable, incredibly successful breeder, he was allowed to get into such an emaciated state in a bachelor paddock (yes, he is now unbelievable polite to other horses and an easy breeder for which I thank them, but frankly, it was abuse). He had never seen a wormer (his condition wasn't purely down to being low man on the totem pole but also to a pretty incredible worm burden) or been vaccinated.

Despite that, he takes his wormers easily, receives vaccinations loose in the stable (in fact, he tries to play with the vet while he's getting his jabs), adored grooming from the start, and never blinked the night I tossed his blanket on. Which I guess just says a lot for his breeding.

But it is the cons that make the cheaper purchase prices viable. I will be expecting my first US foal croap next spring and my main way of copying Europe is breeding for quality from quality. And since the quality US mare base is simply not up the Europeans in numbers, that means there can be no quantity. It also means that my costs are kept down and I can sell babies with excellent lines for a realistic price.

I'll let y'all know how it works. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Susie

P.S. FWIW, 5 year old Continental bred WBs that are schooled well to 2nd level dressage and happily jump courses of 1.20 meters sell for around $8k -$10k off the UK yard I managed. Not world beaters but good, rideable amateur's horses. You couldn't find the same in the States for that price.

alexandra

Jan. 18, 2003, 11:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mbp:
....
BTW, the Eurpopean girls don't shave under their arms. I don't want to do everything like the Europeans. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, had to jump in there. That is not true !!! You have to make a difference here. Older "girls" might not, but I have never seen any athlete or music, tv show Wtar from europe with unshaven armpits !!! ggg what a topic !

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

alexandra

Jan. 19, 2003, 01:11 AM

Boy, what a discussion. Great !!! I like it.

As beeing a German, I want to add something on prices and on conditions and on some post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
A friend of mine just returned home from a horse shopping trip to Europe.

At the farms they visited, total reversal.

The horses are turned out into this tiny mud paddock for an hour a day with 10 or 12 of their closest friends. One or 2 trot steps is all they can manage before they bump into another horse. No hay, no water, no toys - just 10 or 12 other weanlings or yearlings to try and avoid while they stretch (???) their legs. Then - back into their stalls for 23 hours.
1 stablehand for approximately 60 horses, so forget about the individual attention and handling one on one with these youngsters!

How does this lead to a better and more suitable show prospect?

No wonder the prices are lower over there - 1 stablehand to 60 horses and a small mud paddock that everyone gets turned out into for a few minutes each day!

I know too that the breeders get a subsidy from the government - XXX of dollars per every horse raised, so it behooves them to raise as many as possible, in order to keep the subsidies coming in.

Would be nice if we in the US or Canada could get the same sort of monetary relief from our governments!

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of uniqie coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

[QUOTE] from ggold: On a serious note though some of the conditions were down right scary. At the state stud they had 20 give or take a few foals(I think stallion prospects) all turned out once again in a mud hole, possibly a concrete mud hole(although I'm not entirely sure) which was very small and I found one foal with an injured shoulder that had a gapping wound.....no big deal there. These little guys had no access to water, no hay, and no where to run and play. In the barns were a large shed with pregnant broodmares kept togeather and bedding is not changed daily, not even weekly at some places. I did see new born foals and those mares did have their own stalls. Stallions and horses in training had their own stalls but again the concept of turnout seems really not to exist esp on grass.....they have a sand/mud paddock out front. I noticed horses were not fed a lot of hay and straw was okay to feed(!). I noticed the steel bars that youngsters stuck their head through to eat and the more dominant/agressive foals got more and puched the others back. Foals are not handled.....ohhh boy its like a rodeo and I was told they need to tranquilize to trim feet(!). Some horses at the farm I stayed at are wormed concentiously while at another one I had to wonder. Prices IMO where high with foals being in the 8-12K usd range and at one farm the lady couldn't have given me the foals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no clue where in Europe you have been to. I know some barns that have turn out as discribed. But I have not been to serious breeding barns where a horse has no access to hay and water !!! I am quite sure that I have never been to a breeding barn that had toys. We are not very much into having toys for horses. bedding might not be changed in the sence that everything is turned out and completely new stuff is put in the stalls, but horse get new straw on top and enough (!!!) straw on a daily base (we call that having a matrass, I know that is not that common in the US, but quite often done here).
Straw fed as addition to hay is o.k. since hay in some German areas has a lot of protein, combined with the grain that the youngsters get you would have to much protein if not feeding straw as a roughage. Breeders doing that have lesser problems woth OCD !!!
We also keep the youngsters with those steel bars (3 - 5 of the same agegroup), but we keep an eye on the stage they are in and if some do not get to their rights lets say enough food, the horses are seperated from each other !!!
But I have also heard of huge breeding barns (and if saying huge I mean 50+ pregnant mares per year) were these stalls are used as a natural selection. I do not agree with that sort of keeping horses, but I know that it exists. I bet not every barn in the US meets the wishes you would have for a barn, neither does it in Germany, so I think bad exceptions can be discovered everywhere.

A normal breeding barn in Germany is a farm. Seldom an "only" horse farm, mostly cattle or pigs or grain. That's why youngstes do not get handling as you might do it. Nobody takes them out just for taking them out, spends an hour on brushing, leading around or doing an imprinting program ! Youngsters (foals up to 2,5 yo I would say) are taken out when needed, e.g. trimming, vet services, leading them out into the paddocks or arenas. They are cleaned (brushed) if somebody has time or it is needed for clients or shows, or if really looking dirty. In the summer they are out 7/24. They are checked for wounds or injuries. People here very often have the opinion that a young horse has to go through infections that's why not every snot is treated with medication (so there are often lower vet costs I would say). Horses get feet trimming, for sure !! I pay for a foal approx. 30 Euro = 30 US in my area. Is that cheaper as in the states ?
At the family operated farms foals get attention such as kids that enter the barns, pad them and so on, or the owners themselves. Young horses get to know in a very early age all sorts of aggricultural maschines, cows and so on. But that is not like an imprinting program. It "happens" that horses get to know all different things in their environment. Who in the states would ride in an arena that also is used as a storage place for straw/hay bales in one end ? Who would ride in an arena that is used for parking a tractor and trailor because right in the hay harvest it started to rain. I guess nobody. German horses very often learn that, because the are living on a operating farm. And they have to learn it, nobody would let them get away with bad behaviour.

As a German breeder I never got any money from the government for having foals (I wish I would ;-) ). I am not sure if other european countries have such things but I really doubt it, knowing a bit of European politics of agriculture. The only advantage I have that has something to do with the government is the lower stallion fees from the state stud in Celle. But that is actually not a result of the state/government paying money to the state stud. Celle State stud is existing on its own and making money (without getting money from the state, even though it is owned by the state), because of its good managament.

Regarding prices: As I stated German breeding barns are in most cases earning their money as dairy or other type of farms. They are producing the food for the animals sort of anyway and do not have to buy it from others. So they can maintain a horse at selfcosts for let's say 100 - 150 Euro (100 - 150 US) maybe cheaper per month.
It is true because that there are often not handled (I would bet old breeders would say here fooled around) an hour or more per day so you have less costs for personal. And as already said, breeders are often farmers, do the work themselves and do not really include that time in their costs. For most of them it is hobby having horses in addition to cows or whatever.
If you combine this with a lower stallion fee and lower costs for buying a mare, it is quite clear that their prices are cheaper than thoses prices of people that have to pay for other people doing the work or buying food. Plus I think in Germany a lot of breeders are willing to sell their foals/young ones at a price that does not give them huge profit if any (what I experienced from breeders from your side is that more people are actually trying to make a living from horse breeding, than in Germany). I e.g. do not have a farm of my own and if I really would add all my breeding costs I would be at a price that is not able to compete with the price of foals of the same quality that are bred by farmers. For me breeding is a hobby were I have to spend money such as having a riding horse or having and maintaining a boat. But It is my choice and I am willig to spend that money.

Than I have to agree on the statement for starting horses. Often the mentioned farmers do it themselves and in that is not too bad. Again they are just having the "selfcosts" of their sparetime, which is cheaper then having a professional or hired person to do that training. They often do not include these costs totally in their prices for 3 or 4 yo.
If you can not do it yourself, than you can easily find places doing it for 350 - 500 Euro (350 - 500 U$) including the food and barn fee. For that you get a nice and decent training for your horse and after 3-4 months it has enough training that you are able to go with it to a basic horse show. If you want some really good trainers e.g those that compete at the big shows as the Bundeschampionat. You pay 500 - 750 Euro (500 - 750 U$). This quoted price is a price of 8 or 10 years ago and I do not know where we are today. But I guess a bit more expansive and I think for good upper level dressage riders (such as the ones competing at the olympics) you can end up with 1500 Euros just for riding (it is a guess, I have no real figures on that, but I think that this guess is not too bad).
I have to repeat that I think that a lot of horses over here are sold for less than the actual production costs of them would be. At least very often without any profit on top of the production costs.

All these mentioned reasons lead to the fact that you can often buy a horse plus importation costs for a cheaper price as for the same quality in the US.

The above stated price range of 8 - 12000 U$ for a foal before importation would buy you here a very very good foal. People on your side would consider these as FEI or stallion prospects.
Some German farmers are very often aware of the price difference and I have to admit that they try to get money out of the americans and give much higher prices than they would give a German for the same foal. But as long as the Americans pay that because it is still cheaper for them as in the states, these prices are given. And I think this had been even worse 10 years or longer ago, because in times of the internet a lot of people are much more informed.

To give you some sort of idea: You can easily buy a very good, above average foal at the Verden auction in a price range of 3000 - 7500 Euro/US. (And these foals are already preselected, vetted and above average). Better ones of course are more expansive, but for this sort of money you could buy a very very nice foal.

I do not want to say "Buy European because it is better", please do not get me wrong. I know that there are very good homebred american sporthorses. I just wanted to explain why horses over here can be cheaper.

hmh, know the post is longer than I wanted it to be.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Weatherford

Jan. 19, 2003, 04:55 AM

WBLover - PLEASE tell your friend that under EU LAW - (And GERMAN LAW), her horses HAVE A WARRENTEE!! It may be too late, but I do know some Germans who were gritching about this law, but glad he Americans were not aware of it!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

square halt

Jan. 19, 2003, 06:13 AM

Hey, Alexandra. Excellent reply. I think it goes back to the same old thing about generalizations. They don't fit all or sometimes even a few of the farms, breeds, people, etc. I think they are dangerous to make.
I also think different philosophies come into play here. Some breeders swear by the imprinting and consistent handling on a daily basis. Some believe in just handling when necessary, and let the horses be horses. Neither is right or wrong. Your point about farmers having their horses' experiences just happen is just as good as someone planning those same experiences. Different techniques, same result. Personally, I like to watch and learn from many different sources, then pick and choose the techniques that fit me, and my style of handling. There are so many gifted professionals and farmers, that all have wisdom to be shared. We just have to be open to learning new things constantly.

alexandra

Jan. 19, 2003, 07:27 AM

Square halt, do not get me wrong.
I would not say anything against imprinting and I hate e.g. to put a horse on the trailer the first time when I really want to go to a show ...

The only thing I wanted to state was: if you really plan to show your horses things and let them learn like that it takes more time and by this more costs arouse. One of the factors people over here are able to offer horses for lower prices.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

LCR

Jan. 19, 2003, 08:32 AM

This is has been a very interesting discussion and some of you have made very good points. The conversion rate between the dollar and the Euro has changed drastically in the past year. It is almost equal now to the dollar so bargains are hard to find!

When I purchased weanlings about 1 1/2 years ago, the price from a private farm was 8000marks, which was $4000U.S. Did we think this was a bargain, you bet and brought over 3 weanling stallions, figuring at that price, they could be good riding horses if they didn't prove stallion material! Plus, we really wanted weanlings that we could bring up ourselves and train our way, knowing that this would prove to be important later on.

The Europeans will always have the advantage over the U.S. Breeding horses is a business and the owners and people who work on that farm are all considered professional. They have respect! They have more horses, more places to sell horses and more shows. Europe is very small compared to the U.S.

Here, anyone can begin breeding horses and declare themselves the best! Even without knowledge of bloodlines, and how the Europeans bred these horses to produce consistency. I have been on large farms where the owner didn't have a clue what was in the pedigree behind his horses. When we looked at the pedigree and pointed out the Shagyas, in the background, he thought it was a stigma! Even though they were wonderful stallions that have contributed much to his breed.

Europeans have great knowledge of pedigrees etc. and they use that information skillfully. When U.S. breeders begin using this information and really studying the European way of breeding, slowly the good farms will emerge. But the great distances will always remain a problem. I believe that regional breeders forming co-op type marketing, is one way to improve this problem.

A good site to check currency rates is www.oanda.com/convert (http://www.oanda.com/convert)

www.shagya-arabian.com (http://www.shagya-arabian.com)

alexandra

Jan. 19, 2003, 09:37 AM

I do not really think that the Euro changes the fact that you can find bargains:

The farms that offered their foals for 8000 DM are now offering them for 4000 Euro since the conversion course was 1,95883 DM for 1 Euro the beginning of the Euro. Nobody would price the same quality with 8000 Euro, when it was actually 8000 DM. It is the same with all our goods. One liter of Milk was 1,19 DM in the Supermarket, now you have to pay 0,59 Euros.

I had problems with some people looking at horse in the beginning of last year, when we just got the Euro. They told us we want to spend 5000 so I asked what currency. They did not get it and blinked at me. I asked, how much you would want to spend in U$ and they figured 2.500 U$.
I told them that we would look at foals that are 2.500 Euro. They would again blink at me and say no we spent 5000 last year and want to do so again. Finally we all laughed and found something nice in their price range.

Yes, we have a new currency, but all prices for everything are converted - not kept. People do earn less if you look at the numbers on the pay check, but they earn the same after the Euro because they can buy the same amount of stuff for the money they get with the paycheck.

It is true that the Euro against the Dollar is stronger than a year ago, but not that much that it really makes a huge difference. I would need to look how much the Euro gained in percent.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

aurum

Jan. 19, 2003, 10:02 AM

Alexandra, in fact I think a lot of things have gone very much more expensive as the goods have raised a lot with the Euro. It is not that it changes 8000 DM now to 4000 Euro, that is not what I see really happen.

As far as Dollar versus Euro is concerned actually the Euro is stronger than the Dollar. For 3000 Dollars you get 2800 Euro only.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Spot

Jan. 19, 2003, 12:20 PM

I came across this ad today for a 2002 TB filly:

2002 Bay TB filly for sale. Very scopey dressage hunter/jumper and/or 3 day event prospect. Out of a 3-day event mare. Native Dancer/Raise a Native bloodlines top and bottom. Dam is Moon Memory by Trench Digger. (Raised in the Purple)
Olympic caliber filly

Now - unless this filly is jumping 5' over top of puddles that are 15 feet wide, I dont think that "scopey" should be used to describe something that is a few months old.
As well - as much as everyone thinks the world of their foals, to describe them as being of "Olympic caliber" at this early an age is a little off the mark as well.

I think there is where a lot of people (buyers) do get ticked off. Instead of having animals described to them in a realistic manner, these flowery superlatives and speculations are stated as fact, when there is simply no basis and/or facts for doing so.

"Spot"

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 19, 2003, 12:22 PM

I am jumping late into this topic, and many good points have been made.

I know there are many higher quality horses here in the states, and many lesser quality.

I know they are spread out over vast areas, making it difficult to select just one.

And I also know that quality is quality regardless of where you buy it and you pay for that on either side of the pond. One advantage the Europeans have over us, as has been mentioned many times, is the training factor. People will buy a less quality horse with good training over an excellent quality horse with no training.

But for me as a breeder during breeding season, I am struck by the breeding differences between here and there.
I am faced with a catalogue of gorgeous, famous, fantastic stallions. The best in the world. Every one of them is between $500-$1200 PER DOSE with NO lfg. Now it can take (as we all know) 2 or 3 doses to get the mare in foal....maybe. Now this is not a moan session about how expensive it is to breed - we all know how much shipping costs and vet costs can raise a standard breeding into the thousands over just a few days.
Rather this is an explanation of costs. If I am going to take the expense and most importantly, the RISK to do this, then someone later is going to have to pay for all the unsuccessful attempts I made in order to get the one successful attempt. Get it?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
Otherwise this becomes a charity organization, not a business.

Now in Europe, the BEST stallions may have a stud fee of $500 or more. However, there are many, many lesser stallions that are much less. In the States, the average very good stallion is around $2000 or more. That initial $1500 expense may not justify in the future buyer's mind an increase of, say $5000 or more in the final product. But WE as the BREEDERS took this risk. We invested the money on an animal that is trying to kill itself or at least maim itself every single day. In our minds, we are justified in trying to make a decent profit off them when they are ready to sell.

So when you go over there and find that trained youngster - what are the bloodlines? Are they obscure lines that are rare - and therefore cheap??

There are many breeders here, I know, that are overpricing their youngsters a bit. However, the breeders here tend to use the best stallions if they come from Europe. If you go to buy a youngster by, say, De Niro or Wie Weltmeyer, or whatever, you will be paying the same high price here or there.

If you buy a youngster by an obscure stallion there or a lesser stallion here, you will pay less. The difference is, there are many, many horses by lesser stallions there, and not as many horses by lesser stallion here - so you end up paying more by comparison.

Over there, you can't touch a Jazz, or a Ferro, or a Concorde. Over here, you can't touch a Contango, or a Contucci. Quality is expensive.

HOWEVER, if you take a mediocre horse and train it well, it will become more valuable and buyers are just thrilled because they can ride it.
Over here we don't train as quickly or as cheaply. Hence, the perception of cheaper horses.

Ask any professional importer. If they are honest they will say the same thing. The quality for the most part is as good here, or better, but the training is not.
You get what you pay for. Either you pay for the training, or you pay for the breeding. And in order to get both, it will cost you.

Celtic Witch

Jan. 19, 2003, 06:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Milliethefilly:
So when you go over there and find that trained youngster - what are the bloodlines? Are they obscure lines that are rare - and therefore cheap??

Over there, you can't touch a Jazz, or a Ferro, or a Concorde. Over here, you can't touch a Contango, or a Contucci. Quality is expensive.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My $6600 horse is a Burggraff x Nurzeus. Not exactly my idea of obscure. And I choose him from a bunch of 2 year olds that were by Jazz, several Ferro, several Concorde (and I had a very hard time deciding between the one I bought and a Concorde filly), and a lovely Cocktail gelding.

The importer I used has a selection of horses by Burggraff, Cocktail, Concorde, Darko, Flemmingh, Jus De Pomme, Landetto, Landgraf, Cor de la Bryere, Ahorn, G Ramiro Z , Voltaire, Lansing, Woolfgang, Belasaire, Gribaldi, Elcaro, Gracio, and Nimmedor at all times as their main lines. And the prices vary from $6600 -12k for nice 2 -4 year olds.

The main reason these are so cheap is that they haven't yet been started and run though the young horse classes. This, to my mind, is a good thing. I don't want my horses doing the FEI Young Horse classes. Its too much too soon as many are now recognising and voicing.

So yes, the training on young horses tends to be better in Europe. But at what price?

Susie

Jan. 19, 2003, 07:16 PM

As an American breeder and trainer who has also imported a lot of horses from Holland and Ireland I read this thread, and other similar discussions with interest and amazement. I think by now we have all agreed that Americans are breeding horses of excellent quality in all of the sport horse disciplines. Then we get into the topic of raising and training them....I have been in several of the top breeding establishments in Europe and seen the foals jammed into cattle barn type housing and turned out briefly in mud bogs and not handled at all. Our foals are out in grass pastures all day and are handled and haltered and led and groomed every day. Their feed programs produce consistent healthy growth patterns and clean x-rays. Some of them show lightly in Hunter Breeding classes and Hunter and Jumper Futurities where they do well and then come home to play in their pastures with their friends. They are confident, happy, healthy horses that enjoy their jobs. The work under saddle and the training over fences grows smoothly and logically one step at a time and the horses remain confident and happy in their work. They are rhythmic and balanced and responsive.
The horses we have bought in Europe have been wonderful athletes (obviously we would not have bought them if we didn't like them a lot) and they have been very successful in everything from hunters and equitation to Grand Prix Jumpers. They almost all had to be retrained to keep them from dragging the rider the last 2 or 3 strides to the jumps. They had to be taught to be responsive to a light American hand and leg and seat as opposed to the stronger hand and leg and seat of the European riders who were mainly big strong men while most of the American riders are mainly women and juniors. Every professional rider that has ridden the horses we have bred and trained has commented that they are so correct that they are very easy and fun to ride. They are easy and safe for junior and amateur riders.

It has been my observation and personal experience that the horses that are best suited to the American riders are the horses that are trained in the American style from the beginning. Since we imprint our foals, training begins at birth.
Celebrate and appreciate the American bred and trained horses and thank and support the American breeders and trainers.

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 19, 2003, 08:20 PM

very well said. TQ

And I have to say WHAT do people mean by overpriced??????

I took a look at the NAWPN Classified website and the Hann. website.
Have any of you who complain that horses here are overpriced and regularly go to Europe actually even really LOOKED at these sites??

There are a number of very well bred horses both broke and unbroke for very reasonable prices. I counted well over 20 that were below $20,000 before I lost interest in counting and over a dozen that were under $10,000 before I stopped.

But I don't really blame anyone for importing really. The trainers get to have a job by picking it out, and then they get an even longer job when the new owners can't ride the horses. And the owners get to have the status of owning an imported horse. Not to mention the fun of going over to act the rich American, visiting large numbers of horses and have everyone treat you like gold. I know that!! I've been there too!!

I just have to relate an amusing story and then I will not badger my point anymore...honestly!

My best friend imported a yearling. Her trainer picked him out. He is fairly well bred, has a famous sire, but the mare line is a little obscure, and is as talented as they come. And he was ugly, ugly, ugly as a baby. He grew up into a nice looking horse with a hideous temperament and incredible athleticism and she is desperately trying to sell him three years later, but that is a different story.
Anyways, when she got him, everyone knew she was importing a horse and it was big news because few people around here have the money to do so.

She had saved for years, convinced that 'over there' was better. Well, he came. And he was barely halter broke and just awful in many ways.

But everyone came to see him. Now she was also into breaking draft crosses for resale at the time. We kind of had a standing joke about it. 9 out of 10 people who came to see him would see one of her drafts in the paddock and say 'Ooooh is this him??? He is just gorgeous!'. Then my friend would say 'no, that's him, over there' and point to this hideous bundle of bones that she imported. No one could call him pretty in the least. But everyone would turn to him and say 'Wow. He is just beautiful!! He is going to be gorgeous!'

Now there is no way that anyone would have been able to say what he would or would not be, because the picture at the time was pretty grim. Even my friend burst into tears when he hit 19 months and made the mule down the road look elegant!

My point is, people see what they want to see. If they think imported horses are better, then by durn they are going to be, whether they really are or not....

[This message was edited by Milliethefilly on Jan. 20, 2003 at 12:51 AM.]

cherham

Jan. 20, 2003, 03:01 AM

To TQ's post....right on!

Except for the fact that I would substitute "Canadian" for "American" in your post you spoke the exact words in my mind.

As a breeder located in Canada I cannot describe the frustration of seeing riders and their trainers heading off to Europe to check out young horses that, as you so correctly noted, have literally been left out in fields together since birth and/or not handled at all.

When you consider the time, dedication and effort we put into showing all our youngsters in line classes etc. Having them get used to trailering, clipping, braiding, showing at large horse shows such as the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto(with all the clatter and commotion that goes on down there) Good grief you would think this would mean something in the education of a young horse for a prospective buyer.

AND to add to the frustration of those of us in Canada, with our currency being worth half of yours, I really don't understand why the Americans buyers would not head up here to purchase quality well bred registered horses either. It sure is a lot closer and cheaper then Europe!

Just my thoughts and wanted to let you all know that as a fellow sport horse breeder in North America I share all of your frustrations.

square halt

Jan. 20, 2003, 07:42 AM

Well......then perhaps it is up to the breeders to get the message out about the advantages to the breeding farms in North America. Instead of using the size as a disadvantage, promote size and turnout as a positive. It could only work if, in conjunction, breeders worked together as a consortium to connect buyers and breeders for the benefit of all. Germany has wonderful PR in promoting their fine system. And I do believe that there are many wonderful ideals to that system. We can just enhance the basic philosophy with our fortunate scope of agricultural land. Just a thought.

carosello

Jan. 20, 2003, 07:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
I came across this ad today for a 2002 TB filly:
<snip>

I think there is where a lot of people (buyers) do get ticked off. Instead of having animals described to them in a realistic manner, these flowery superlatives and speculations are stated as fact, when there is simply no basis and/or facts for doing so.

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Spot you are right on in my book. I HATE seeing people who talk about on the bit and forward & potential and then you go and see them in person and its a joke. I have taken the point that I dont want to convience people my horses are nice with language like that. And to tell you the truth...I have never not sold a horse that someone came and saw in person! I have always lived by the thought that you can sell 100 nice horsees but if you sell 1 bad one, that is the one everyone is going to talk about!

I think that you cannot equally compare horses brought up in Germany vs the US/Canada. Many farmers in Germany are given perks we North Americans do not get. Our expensises are overall greater and so horses will be more expensive. And remember the cost of finding one in Europe doesnt include the import often...add another $5k+++ for that!

~Where nice horses arent the fad...they happen all the time!~
www.carosello.homestead.com (http://www.carosello.homestead.com)

HFSH

Jan. 20, 2003, 09:27 AM

Okay, I'll admit I haven't read all the responses here, but, regarding pricing of US horses.

I think anyone that pays $60,000 for a 3yo here in the US is most likely buying the horse either through and agent or their trainer, who is doubling the price of the horse. Having been in the H/J world, there are far too many trainers that grab OTT TB's for $1500 and charge their clients $50,000 or more for the same horse. Why would a trainer bring a buyer to a breeder to look at $25,000 3yo's when he can grab something off the track for $3000 and make way more money? Gee, when the horse doesn't work out, they go get another one.
I know people who paid $100,000 to their trainer for a jumper who ultimately couldn't do the job. They dumped the trainer, went out and spent 1/10 the money on a new horse that they found, and he is winning in the jumpers for them.

Problem for breeders - many don't have the connections to get horses sold into the show homes.

...back to reading more from this thread....

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Arabbreeder

Jan. 20, 2003, 12:07 PM

Maggymay-VERY VERY few horses in Americe today will be bred by anyone with that kind of first-hand knowledge of the parents and extended family. And I don't expect to make money on it. I just want a nice sound horse with jump, heart and sense. (I figure I have 50% chance >>

I agree with you there. I am one of those breeders that pays particular attention to temperament in my horses and have chosen my stallion based on what years of experience with his full and half sisters and brothers as well as sire and dam have produced and accomplished in the show ring and other areas of competition. I have first-hand knowledge of many variations of the bloodlines through different crosses and so I have that much knowledge and background to go on before ever producing the first foal. I have ridden and handled my stallion's sire and dam and foaled out and raised several siblings and close relatives, enough variations to have developed my "ideal" cross and to breed for it, and to have a market for the offspring based not only on "my" program but on the basic breeding program that all of my horses thus far have come from, a solid program of 40+ years that is there to back up the knowledge I continue gaining each and every day.

I agree also with another poster that said that a lot of American breeders feel that buyers are "lucky" or should feel "privaledged" to have the chance to spend a fortune on one of their unproven weanlings or yearlings, I see that all the time in more popular Arabian breeding circles when the foals are most often not bred with even form-to-function of their conformation as a number one standard of breeding!

That said, I feel there is a lot of responsible American breeders who have remained small and select, producing quality animals by stand-by foundation lines of proven athletes and family pleasure horses with the type of personality that can win anyone over to be an avid horse enthusiast. It is just sometimes very hard to find them, and very hard for them to keep their prices low enough to appeal to the buyers who end up going overseas, while not dealing themselves out of the market (setting prices too low, and people think they don't have quality)

Plus... it just seems "elite" or "in style" somehow to buy overseas and have imported horses!

mbp

Jan. 20, 2003, 01:00 PM

Alexandra:

You have proven that it is NEVER to late for someone's words to come back to haunt them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hang my head and admit it - yes, a lot of Eurogals do shave. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks for all the interesting info on your posts. Another question I would have - what kind of vet costs are there for breeding in Europe? I know the AI costs for a lot of small breeders here in the states really mount up too. I get the impression the costs are more moderate for vetwork overseas. And the costs of keurings/inspections is quite a bit less - a lot of US breeders have to haul 8 or more hours to make it to an inspection.

BTW - I do think a lot of horses, even in the states, do have to contend with things like hay/sawdust/a tractor etc. in the arena - although maybe not everywhere. Were the costs you were mentioning for getting a young horse started for one month of work?

On the handling and turnout I do like the fact that lots of us breeders have lots of pasture/run space, but still do individualized handling/feeding. I know some EUropean breeders do as well, but I think that may be something that is a little easier to come by/cheaper in the US, unless you live in certain areas. I will say on the handling front though - that some of these wb foals do pretty well with very minimal handling and imprinting - a lot of it is in the disposition they have when they hit the ground IMO. You can almost tell a foal that will be one you can haul out of the pasture first time up and have him stand fine for trims and load first time up etc. Not that imprinting isn't a good thing, but there are a lot of foals that are still pretty easy to handle without it.

Millie - I think that while the 2,000 fee was too much of a norm for a decent stallion for awhile, that is changing. DBNA has 3 nice stallions for a great price. GW RANCH always has some great stallions with great deals. I'll think of more later, but those come to mind first.

More and more stallion owners are figuring out that if they want to breed stallions as a prestige point, fine, but if they want to breed as a business, you don't often get the numbers you need at 2,000-2,500. A few will, but not lots. IMO there are getting to be more nice stallions available at a moderate price point.

And finally - to whoever mentioned regionalizing sales efforts - that is my soapbox. Not just for sales efforts but in general - I think that European breeders revolve around their geographic regions and make that work for them - we have tried to incorporate a gazillion competing registries and tried implementing on a nationwide basis, and not only is it not as effective, it is divisive for the regional breeders who "owe allegiance" to too many different registries and are not as willing and able to interface effectively.

Allyn M

Jan. 20, 2003, 07:32 PM

I am always afraid to get into discussions like this for fear that someone will think that my participation will amount to advertising as we are selling horses on a full time basis . That being said I would like to explain how I got into this business. After a almost life-ending fox hunting accident my jumping days were over and I thought I could still keep my love of horses fulfilled by breeding . I had been breeding track horses and tried crossing TBs with quarter horses ( a lot of loveing care but no significant sales ) ; neither worked for us. Then after working on the 1987 Pan Am games I was given the tasty job of being the back-up timer in the show jumping ring and I met a horse the likes of which I had never seen before.THis horse was such a magnificant jumper and so business-like in his performance and then cuddled with his diminutive groom during the medals ceremony . Afterward I studied him and noticed that he was quiet and seemed to love what he was doing. So I went to ask his owner/ rider,Ian Miller about him and he explained that he was a Belgian Warmblood . The horse of course was Big Ben and after That I was off into a full year of studying bloodlines and the jumping conformation and techniques that followed those bloodlines.
I have right now about 100 videotapes of International horses jumping in all sorts of competitions. When I exercise each morning I study those horses and because I know their bloodlines I can see similarities in their styles. I began purchasing copies of the WBFSH breeding guide that has every International sport horse in the world listed with their pedigree and breeder; and began following the show results through www.bcm.nl/ (http://www.bcm.nl/) I went to Europe to horse shows and stallion selections until I could figure out which was the easiest way to start obtaining good bloodlines without spending our life-savings.Just about that time I met Branco ( he had just been imported by someone in Michigan ) and I joined the belgian warmblood registry and bred one of our TB broodmares to him . The result was a lovely foal that sold as a three year old for many time what the TBs or crosses ever sold for. Husband was very happy.I went for the next year trying to find mares that would improve our breeding program and although I knew that I could get TB mares cheaply I wanted to find mares that moved well. Not very easy to do . I have good track connections but I wanted distance horses and those were hard to find. Finally had some good horse sales and went back to Europe to look for mares and purchased a young mare .
Had absolutely no intention of purchasing a stallion prospect because at that time I had begun to purchase frozen from the best jumping stallions in the world and did not feel that we needed one.However I went to visit a young stallion because I thought he had wonderful jumping abilities . We discovered that his owner had purchased back about 20 or 30 black stallion prospects from his first crop. THey were in stalls ( about 5 to a stall)and I asked about the combination of the two stallions that they owned ( Non Stop and Feinschnitt ). There were two stallions with that breeding and we picked one. ( the other was 14th in the World Breeding Championships for 7 year old horses at Zangersheide this fall ) Our stallion's name is Simsalabim and the other one is Semsaladem.At any rate we purchased him for his bloodlines and the powerful rear end that runs with his bloodlines and good legs. I thought that he would be able to give those qualities to the TB breeding stock. We also purchased a mare by Jus de Pomme /dams sire Ahorn;a mare by Indoctro /dams side Alme and Pilot and a mare by Wellington.We have kept some of our WB/TB cross mare and bred back to warmbloods and I now use the TB mares as recip mares for the ET program. I never have trouble selling horses from the really good bloodlines ,but the buyers we have are normally looking for Grand Prix prospects and know their bloodlines and they are frequently professionals.
All of the things that people have mentioned about the differences between Europe and the US are true and I would agree with most of them.
What we don't do and neither do the English is treat horses as livestock. They do in Europe. The ones that don't work out and don't sell are not kept in a pasture or bred to a local stallion. They are sent to France or east europe to be eaten. That is not to say that they are not sentimental about some of their horses because they are.If a horse has worked his heart out for a farm he will have a charmed life for as long as he lives. You have only to see Nimmerdor in his giant stall to know that that is true.
All of the reasons that people have given that we have not been successful yet in competing with Europe are true . IMHO the most important are that we have no one in the US that wants to train youngsters in a slow and progressive manner or who will give them the basic Dressage they need to be sucessful,so a lot of young horses are ruined quickly .

The other reason I believe is important is that many people in the H/J industry don't know bloodlines and therefore don't think that they are important.In Europe you can ask a rider what are the bloodlines of his horse and he can tell you right away.
I also think we don't have enough good broodmares to compare with the stallions that have been imported.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 20, 2003, 08:41 PM

There are a number of good points made here. One thing that could really help the breeders is to aknowledge the breeding of a horse and its breeder. In the most recent Z mag it talks about one of the young horse jumping championships. Even if the breeder doesn't own the horse at the time of competition they get a percentage of the prize money awarded to the horse. The breeders have to be present to claim their "prize" - which I think is also great - because it gives some "face time" to people who are often only in the background.

I know very little about the IJF and IHF - except that they are pretty expensive to nominate a youngster - and the stallion owner has to pay a good chunk as well.

alexandra

Jan. 20, 2003, 09:43 PM

Since MBP asked I have to give the information, that all the figures/prices horse related stated above are not to be taken for granted for all over Europe.
These numbers are from my area. They can be different even inside Germany. E.g. to keep a horse in the Düsseldorf, Cologne area is very classy and much more expansive, because there is not that much ground to be used as farmland. Same as with some parts of southern Germany.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Allyn M

Jan. 21, 2003, 06:02 AM

Having fallen asleep during my posting last nite about how and why we got into the breeding business I never got to suggestions for promoting American bred horses. I am going to talk about Warmblood performance bred sport horses. Those bred specifically for Dressage or Jumping.
1. We need to concentrate on performance bloodlines in order to breed performance horses and since that is true the thought that one registry named for an area in Europe is superior to another is a false lead to follow. All of the registries have used stallions and mares from other registries if they feel that they will fit into their breeding goals. Ramiro Z at one time was bred into almost every registry and because he lived so long and was so fertile he became the most influential stallion in jumping horses for the last 50 years.If you talk to your registry you can see if you can use a stallion that you feel would fit into your program and I think most approve. I know before I import semen and I have imported semen from Darco, Concorde,Rebel IZ and Pavarotti I get approval from the main BWP office for that and if I get a foal they have to be DNA tested in Gent.Even if the Stallion is not Belgian approved they will allow it if it is a world class stallion as their main interest is in quality horses.So I think every breeder must start out with a knowledge of bloodlines.
2. You can breed the best horse in the world and if he does not start out right he will forever have an attitude problem. Raising a weanling in a box stall with no companionship or out with older horses that beat up on him will not produce a good horse.
3. We must have a way to get our horses trained well.There is a great lacking of amateur riders who actually can ride green horses.There are lots of young boys and girls ( mostly guys ) working at the big breeding farms who just back and train young stock in Europe.Our amateur system has been spoiled by the quickie approach of purchasing experienced expensive horses for the blue ribbon.Even at the highest level the horses have been trained over in Europe by someone else.
In the World Federation of Breeders of Sport Horses breeding guides list of world prominant breeders the only american breeder that I have ever seen in there was Lynn Little and she trained and rode all the horses she bred herself.
3. Our attitude toward auctions has to change. If we had a sport horse select sale several times a year sooner or later people would get excited about attending them and breeders would get reputations for breeding good horses. In Europe if the selectors pick your foal or older horse for one of the sales you are honored and excited and everyone buys at those sales.Last January Leon Melchoir told us about a foal he bought at the Mechlan auction last year and he was proud of it.
4.Concentrate on upgrading our mare base whether we are using homebreds or imported stock. I learned long ago when I attended a horse appraisal course in Lexington and spent many days at the Fasig-Tipton sale that the mare is the important thing. People spend millions of dollars on mare lines alone without ever having seen any performance out of the horse they are buying. We have the finest race horse breeding system in the world ; there is no reason we cannot have the finest homebred sport horses.
We now have access to inspection systems through the European judges. If we pay some attention to them and try not to get offended or have our feelings hurt or try not to become barn blind we can learn something. I believe the key to all of this is education and hard work plus "sticktoitivity "You have to be determined to be a breeder because it can be heartbreaking and discouraging at times. It can be unbelievably rewarding when you watch your stallion have clear rounds on courses with some of the best in the US or sit down for a good cry with your trainer when he gets third in Get of Sire at Dressage at Devon against some of the best stallions in Dressage.
Lastly whoever said we must work together was right. If someone can't find the horse of their choice at your farm make sure that they see the horses at other farms in your area.That way they will be more likely to come back to that area to shop.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Tiki

Jan. 21, 2003, 10:31 AM

Boy, you hit it right on the head with your statement:

"Our attitude toward auctions has to change."

I brought a very nice yearling I think he was at the time to a special auction by invitation only to quality breeders. A man came by and looked at him and expressed a great deal of interest. He was big and he was turning gray and he has a very nice disposition. He asked me to take him out of the stall and jog him up and down the aisle a few times - this was before the auction. I did, and he handled beautifully and showed himself off well. The man said he liked him and wanted to know what my reserve was. I told him $7500. He started yelling at me and asked me where I got off asking so d*mn much for a youngster, who did I think I was, etc. etc. etc. all in a very loud and abusive voice. The youngster, btw, just stood and looked at him. He offered me $750 dollars for him. I took a lovely yearling filly to another auction. She was the best mannered horse there, and I mean adults under saddle, everything. She behaved beautifully, did EVERYTHING the handler asked of her quietly and easily. I was offered $500 for her. People in this country look at auctions as a place to get a bargain. They're looking for 'white elephants' hoping that someone else's discard will net them a million dollars for the purchase price of 5 bucks. Unless and until we can change that attitude, I don't think we can be successful.

Another GREAT venue that no one ever talks about when they say they can't find good horses here without driving a gazillion miles between horses is the breed inspections. You can see anywhere from 10 to 100 foals, and some very nice broodmares - usually all well turned out and well handled and often with inspector's comments. Breed shows are a great place to see really good horses and also to see what the judges think of them. I took a 2yo filly to the Devon breed show this year and the only people watching any of the classes (with few exceptions) were the other breeders. They're not going to buy my horses, they're trying to sell their own. Buyers whine about the distances and the lack of quality animals, yet they refule to go to the places where they can see lots of horses together, well turned out, complete with inspector's or judges comments.

mbp

Jan. 21, 2003, 11:15 AM

I think you have a lot of excellent points Allyn.

One thing I believe strongly about is better tracking of TB performance and use here in this country. Realistically, our breeding programs at some point, to be economic and successful, have to incorporate a significant chunk of domestic mares. Yes, there are lots of "provens" with imported mares, but realistically a successful approach has to take the most appropriate domestic mare base (which I believe it TB, both from a numbers and prior usage history standpoint) and incorporate that base.

There will be lovely horses generated by importing high class mares and breeding them with successful proven crosses. But many of those will generat fairly pricey offspring and still will not have the appropriate supply. I do think you can look to Europe for some history of success, and there do not seem to be any countries, as important as the mare lines are, that have reached their breeding success by wholesale importation of a new mare base. THe economics and breeders don't support this.

So I personally truly believe that we need to evolve from a point of saying -oh, don't use a tb mare, get a nice mare - to at least attempting to generate some information about WHICH tbs mares and mare lines are NICE mares http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And really tracking the success of stallions in crossing with different segments of the DOMESTIC mare base. And that may be different for different lines within the domestic mare base.

PLEASE don't think that I don't believe it is a good thing to get a super nice quality mare with proven lines and import them and use them for breeding. That is a good thing on an individual basis. But it is NOT, IMO, the way to establish a successful breeding industry here. To do that, I think we have to make an actual effort to compile information on the domestic mare base and USE that information.

I know, for example, that SEVERAL tb mares in EVERY registry have produced premium foals and from several different stallions. But what summary information or even discussion do we have on that? HOw many registries that we are using here have compiled information on the tb lines that are producing here at home? It can't be that difficult - all the pedigree information is on file. Take the last four or five years inspections - look for tb mares that were high scoring and for tb mares that produced premium foals. Run the results - see if there are trends.

And realize that not all tbs are the same. For example, Allyn mentioned looking for some distance bred mares. There are distinct tb lines that generate different types of horses. I would cringe at a reference to a tb stallion as "the right" stallion to refine and improve ANY wb mare. I have the same reaction to generalizations about a wb stallion that is good "for tb mares". Which kind? The short necked, big butted, heavy gaskin sprinters - or the all willowy neck long legged clean lined distance horses. But we toss our domestic tbs in a pile and treat them like they are something less than worthwhile.

Think about it - even though TBs here are really bred for the track, no one does much (with some notable exceptions like Dr. Birdsall) with every even attempting to follow them or utilize them to create sport horses - we have had horses like Jet Run, Idle Dice, Gem Twist, Sloopy, Ballycor, Keen .... WOuld any European country take a mare base that, even without effort or focus generated one international horse after another, and ignore it? Like we do.

And I SO much agree about Allyn's observations on starting young horses - an issue I am dealing with now. At my age, I still remember a time when American where good with a hot horse, a blood horse - and they had nerve, a light touch, a good feel. I find it interesting that with all our focus on getting "quiet" horses for the amateur market (which we do need - it is THE market) it is now the Europeans that I see riding the hotter horse, finessing the "go" ride. Thank God for the event riders who will start a young horse. I think they are some of the only group left that seems to combine a light touch and REAL HORSEMANSHIP on a fairly consistent basis. Not that there aren't a lot of nice h/j, dressage and even NH trainers out there, but really, as a group, I think the eventers are much more reliable horsemen and women.

How do we get better access to a reasonably priced "good start" for our young horses? How do we get some recognition and incorporation of our domestic mare base? I think as an industry, we will trend towards having too high pricing and sparser availablity than the riding market wants unless we address those. But - that's all my opinion only and I realize that I am an incurable TB addict - so my judgement is tempered by that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS - I think as breeders too we have to realize that many many many of the buyers want something started. Other breeders are more likely to want the foal at the foal inspection, or the yearling or 2yo at the breedshow. SO I don't know that those will be the best venues for most buyers. I think if we started a good program of 3/4yo testing, of geldings as well as mares - not just IBOPs and star awards, but some generalized inspections, we would generate tremendous information to use for our breeding base and these types of inspections might very well generate some serious buyer interest.

Allyn M

Jan. 21, 2003, 12:25 PM

I would love to find a barnful of perfect for the job TB mares as I love them. I have definitely spent lots of precious time going through the shed rows at tracks and watching the claimers at the secondary tracks. I would have loved not to have had to spend the money on imported broodmares ,but I quickly found out that there are two kinds of TBs ;those you can afford and those that you will never be able to afford . There is a tiny middle class in racing
horses. Most of the horses that I looked at were bred for 6 furlong races . I could fit their cannon bones between my index finger and thumb.
They have usually been backed as yearlings and would not hold up to jumping. I have had three TB mares that have produced exceptional babies and I have kept all of the fillies from those mares.The products from those TB mares were the ones we took to Devon this year so I am as proud of them as any I have.
I tried to raise TB sport Horses and people would have been happy to have given me at least 1,000 by the time they were 2 or 3. That is because the cast off market is so cheap that there is no hope of supporting your farm on sales.I have a friend that raises track horses and by the time they are backed and trained and gate trained and entered into several races she will have almost 20K in them. If they then cannot make it on the track she has to practically give them away. For every canter race horse reject there is someone in the background with empty pockets.
Then there is the other aspect that is absent in most race horses and that is movement and or suspension.That was why I selected the three TBs that I loved so much and whose fillies I kept . They had that movement. That coupled with our Ramiro Z stallion Branco who always throws super movement produced the mare Song Sung Blue B that is one of our best broodmares.
You can find some good TBs but for exceptional GP jumpers I think I am going to stick with the warmbloods.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Tom King

Jan. 21, 2003, 12:44 PM

Good points all. Another is that the USA pool of would-be genius available to breeding is applied to misguided (IMO) directions. You know--certain halter classes, breed shows seen nowhere else in the world, etc.

mbp

Jan. 21, 2003, 12:56 PM

I don't mean to suggest that you shouldn't. Sorry if it sounded that way. I think that there is a lot of information, expertise and breeding refinement that have gone into developing those wb mares. Obviously, when you look to breed the best, as I know you do (I've seen some of your very lovely horses) then there is certainly nothing wrong with using the best mares available to you. I think all the substantial breeding operations will have some imported mares. No doubt about that and that is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

I just truly believe the industry, as a whole, cannot thrive if it is reliant on an imported mare base. I just don't think it can produce for the mid level rider economically at that point. I do think that your personal efforts to breed a grand prix jumper are benefitted by using the mares you have found and used. But I think the industry needs to look to how to utilize effectively what we have available. I just see that as fairly fundamental in a marketing, business development plan, etc. perspective, not so much for the individual breeder, but for the industry here.

For example, look to the HUGE evolution and growth of the AQHA. Not that we want to breed for that market - but look at the industry approach taken. Domestic mares. Domestic breeders - incorporated into a program focused on domestic riders. As a matter of fact, domestic riders that often DO know a little about their horse's bloodlines. Huge participation, huge growth, easy entry for new riders into this market. Yes, it has also come with proliferation and some sleazy sidestreets. I will not say you can't find some big flaws, but I will say that when you look at the successful industry approaches for horse breeding here, they had the same focus on utilizing domestic mare bases that the Europeans used.

I think having a database develop for the domestic marebase that are already being used here in the states would be tremendously helpful. It also seems to me that distance bred mares are very out of favor right now with the race industry - which is focused on 2yo stars and sprint speed. I maybe wrong in thinking that this makes them more available. I do know that I lost a tb mare that I was very happy with and had for way to short a time. I went to see another mare, only about 3 hours away, based solely on the fact that the mares were very similarly bred (an approach many might use when looking at warmblood mares too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). I was very happy with the mare, she passed her inspections with flying colors although injured at the time, and she was a very moderate price. I would go look at a relative in a heartbeat if I needed another horse. I have since found out that she is very similar breeding to another mare that a NA/WPN breeder used, and had tremendous success using. This kind of information should be easier to get IMO.

SO please dont' think I do not respect the imported mare and those who bring them over. I do - I think you will produce lovely horses. But as far as whether that approach will develop the industry, I just haven't seen a success model that has used that approach on an industry wide basis.

Spot

Jan. 21, 2003, 01:03 PM

Allyn and mbp - geez - you both have given us all an awful lot to think about! What wonderful and knowledgeable responses!

I think though, whatever breed you are involved with, the good breeders DO know a lot about those particular bloodlines. My forte is TB's, so yes - I DO know what bloodlines to look for for sprint and distance pedigrees, which bloodlines tend to produce hot or difficult animals, and in my particular case - which bloodlines are known for color production.
I think the good breeders over the years, simply make it a point to educate themselves in these areas so that they can be considered experts in these areas.

Yes - I have "heard" of many WB bloodlines, but I admit I dont have the foggiest of clues whether Ramiro or Rubenstein or whoever tend to produce superior jumpers or dressage horses!

I have truly "lucked out" in getting some very well bred TB mares that I literally just stumbled across. My Old Standby mare is not only by Stage Door Johnny (classic distance sire and a champion) but her female line is equally as stellar. Her dam had 73 starts over a 5 year period, won 134,000.00 and is a producer of stakes winning and placed horses, was named the 28th leading dam in Canada out of the top 200 mares polled, and on and on.
That type and quality of mare would be an asset to ANYONE's breeding program and should produce a fabulous athlete!

I think it all boils down to knowing your product and capitalizing on that knowledge.

"Spot"

mbp

Jan. 21, 2003, 01:30 PM

So for example, Spot - your mare by Stage Door Johnny. My Silent Darkness mare is by Silent Screen, another Prince John son. And the other breeder whose mare was such a successful producer had another Prince John granddaughter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For my mare, I actually went to see her bc her damsire was my lost mares sire. Darby Creek Road, who is Roberto - Hail to REason - Turn-To. Patterns DO start to develop when information is easier to come by. I know you and Allyn do both know a lot about tb lines - as did the breeder who owned the other Prince John granddaughter. Neither of my mares was pricey - though I really liked both of them or would not have bought them. The mare I lost is the granddam to a Cosequin Breeders Champ HOTY.

Now, were either of them the absolute without question nicest mare you will ever find. No. But among the realm of mares that ARE nice mares, they held their own pretty well. Those are the kind of mares, IMO, that due to availability, price, bloodlines, production records, and individual characteristics (both did well at their inspections - the Silent Darkness mare garned some 8s from the pretty tuff german judges) are worth breeding. Not just for any one of those things - not just availability or price definitely. But utilizing mares like that with the right stallions (who are not all 2500 stud fees) WILL generate some nice horses, affordable to domestic riders, and help the evolution of the industry IMO.

Just my thoughts on the industry - certainly do NOT mean to offend anyone or stir a pot. I am pretty likely to be wrong about several things today - this is just one of them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Allyn M

Jan. 21, 2003, 04:28 PM

Just going to add something else to ponder on .....When you are breeding for a horse or dog who'S performance or conformation is dependant on someones judgement call ; that very judgement call can change from year to year or even over a show season. I used to think that eventing horses were exempt from that ,but I had someone here looking for high level eventing prospects and I was showing him TB crosses thinking that they were going to be fast and scopey and he said ...." they need now to be super movers because if the Dressage score is really good you will stand a better chance of coming out well at an event regardless of the jumping phases. "Now our Dressage prospects have a floating sometimes flat kneed type of movement and the jumping prospects have a more break over at the knees movement so they can readily tuck over jumps so I'm not in agreement with this change because you are mixing a judgement call with performance and I always thought that eventing horses dressage scores were simple and indicative of minding well on the flat. The same is true for hunters . The hunters I knew as a young rider were heavier and more substantial and could jump 4'. Now hunter judging has changed so much that you are no longer looking for the daisy cutter movement but instead need some sort of flat kneed toe flipping type of movement. That is why I am breeding for Jumpers. They either do it or they don't and if they don't it is usually the riders fault so you have to really ride ( no just perching on the saddle )
mbp...... Why don't you start a group to research the TB bloodlines needed for jumping and then teach everyone how to look them up.People can start to purchase the Daily Racing Form and you can follow who is doing well and who is headed downhill and maybe some people who want to breed can learn from this. It would be great if the people who follow this forum would become interested.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jan. 22, 2003, 05:35 AM

Question about the need for people who will start your youngsters right -

Would you consider sending your youngsters away for a period of time to receive this start?

Roughly how long would you want them gone
what could you afford
what would you like the horses doing by the end?

I ask because my 5 year plan involves this niche for myself and my farm - I'm envisioning giving a correct liberal arts education to youngsters. Backing them, riding them forward and straight up and down hills, across puddles, in the ring, over logs and ditches and poles.

My fantasy scenario involves having these youngsters 6 months to a year, so they are well and truly started and able to go out in public, and have already gone to a dressage show or two, or some other public venues.

But this scenario doese raise the price issue, as donating these services isn't an option... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What would your fantasy scenario involve???

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 22, 2003, 08:29 AM

mbp wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I find it interesting that with all our focus on getting "quiet" horses for the amateur market (which we do need - it is THE market) it is now the Europeans that I see riding the hotter horse, finessing the "go" ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is important to point out that there is a definite difference between TB hot and WB hot.

After having started and ridden many of both breeds I can say with complete confidence that they are not at all the same.

Tb's are for the most part honest, non-aggressive horses. They may be 'silly' or they may lose their minds on a regular basis, but in general they want to please you. When they get confused they get scared. If something happens that is frightening, they get scared. When things change, they get scared. And then they want to go, go, go. They know that they are the subordinate in this relationship. They don't want to kill you - they want to get away. And if you want to come too, then that is fine with them.

Wb's on the other hand are much more aggressive and opinionated. When they get confused, they get mad. When things change, they get mad. And then they want to fight, fight, fight. They want you to back down and leave them alone NOW. They need to have the pecking order very firm in their mind at all times.

This is why you can jump Wb's over Volkswagon bugs in small indoor arenas. That aggressiveness, when channeled properly, can really work for you.

A hot WB combines both boldness and aggressiveness. The flight response is not NEAR what it is in the TB. That is why all the TB blood they are infusing into the WB breeds back in Europe are producing hot, difficult horses. Anky V. G. just broke her femur in four places after a fall from a half TB horse.

Which brings me to another pet peeve I have....
BREED SHOWS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This is a very bad way to go. We are trying to produce sport horses, not poodles. The qualities looked for in a breed show is not at all what we look for in a competition horse. In fact, I would say that most horses that win these shows very rarely have successful riding careers.
I am afraid that breed shows - popular only here in the United States - is just another venue for people who are afraid to ride their horses.
They are great learning experiences for the horses - (although I will say that showing a 2 year old in a bridle is very bad on their mouths. Every horse I have ever started under saddle that has been to a lot of breed shows has a very dead mouth.) And it is good for the public - but we could argue that the public doesn't really often attend.

I would be very happy to see breed shows fade in popularity. But they are easy and fun ways to party, so I think they will just get bigger. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Spot

Jan. 22, 2003, 09:45 AM

Milliethe filly - do you have your flame suit on yet ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think you may need it soon!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Which brings me to another pet peeve I have....
BREED SHOWS

This is a very bad way to go. We are trying to produce sport horses, not poodles. The qualities looked for in a breed show is not at all what we look for in a competition horse. In fact, I would say that most horses that win these shows very rarely have successful riding careers.
I am afraid that breed shows - popular only here in the United States - is just another venue for people who are afraid to ride their horses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know - I have to agree with a lot of what you say, in certain circumstances.
It was said, for the longest time in our parts, that winning the Governor's Generals Cup class as a 3 yr old, was the kiss of death for the horse, because not one single one EVER went on to do anything in the show ring after that.
People used to PRAY that their horse would finish 2nd, because then - it at least had a chance to be a show animal afterwards!

I think in all honesty, poodles are it in many cases. I know in the APHA shows that I attend, those poor weanlings and yearlings that are fattened up like butterball turkeys on those skinny little legs, bulked up on steroids, kept in the stall under hoods and blankets 24/7.

In the hunter breeding classes, I think you have a choice of allowing your horse to BE a horse and get turned out and play, not stuffing him with food, letting the sun bleach his coat and when you do show, knowing that you wont place well against the hot housed variety that lives inside, gets turned out at night - alone, and spends his days learning how to stand pretty instead of being out playing with his buddies.

you know - I dont 100% agree with the European system of doing things, but one point that was driven home was that by keeping all of their weanlings and yearlings together in close confinement, they learn tolerance and manners. Yeah - they may have nicks and scrapes on them, but one groom in Europe can hold 6 or 8 horses and they all stand in a row and behave themselves. In NA, its one groom for one horse.
They learn and understand their place in life. It is driven home to them so that they never forget it.

Is a breed show a good way to introduce a youngster to a show atmosphere?
I think so - as long as it has its limits and parameters and isnt the be all and end all, and that there is life after the breed shows are done.

"Spot"

Beezer

Jan. 22, 2003, 07:15 PM

Oh, boy, you can say THAT again!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
milliethefilly

I have been saying that about WBs and TBs for years and everyone just shouts me down LOL. The other big difference I see (and where I think a lot of NA buyers got into trouble initially) was in assuming that a hot spooky WB baby would calm down over time like a hot spooky TB baby. IME that rarely happens to the same degree.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't get me wrong ... I love WBs. But the spooky ones (and we did/do get them) are spooky till the day they die. Yes, you can control it through training to some extent, but that "duck and cover" reaction is never going to go away.

I said this the first time this thread came around and I'll say it again: Out here, it is VERY difficult to sell anything that isn't well-started under saddle, which obviously increases the investment the breeder already has in the horse. We are really, really happy if we break even; more often than not, we take a loss. Fortunately for us, though, breeding our few wonderful hunter mares is more a passion than a business. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Everyone's made some really good points about the differences between buying "locally" (i.e. North America) and going to Europe. But I just have to say (and I know that this is going to sound really funny coming from someone whose family breeds WBs), the day I pay the amount of money that many U.S. breeders are asking for weanlings or yearlings is the day someone needs to thwack me upside the head. Hard.

** Dear Cupid: All I really want for Valentine's Day is flying LEAD CHANGES!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif **

Jan. 22, 2003, 07:45 PM

To Milliethefilly:
Different people do things differently and we all have different experiences. I have certainly seen hunter breeding babies prepard the way you described and I too am concerned about feeding them too rich and not letting them be horses. I have sometimes seen some of them handled too roughly BUT that is not all I have seen and that is not what we do.
Out babies stay out in the grass pasture with their friends (we are careful that they are compatible friends and rarely have any nicks or scrapes to deal with). They are in pastures with ample shade trees when the sun is hot. They are fed a balanced diet designed to produce slow steady growth (allowing for the normal growth spurts). They learn to wear a rubber snaffle. Almost all of our horses show over fences in rubber snaffles. Just The Best was hunter champion showing in a rubber snaffle even while he was breeding. We still ride him in a rubber snaffle throughout the year, including breeding season....he was also shown on the line as a yearling in a rubber snaffle.

Everything we do with horses can be done well or done badly. A lot of hunter breeding babies are beautifully prepared without jeopardizing their physical or mental well being. We breed and train happy healthy champions.
If you are ever in our area stop by....maybe we can change your mind about hunter breeding.

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 22, 2003, 08:38 PM

TQ-
I actually never mentioned the hunter ring!
To be honest, I have no opinion either way about hunters, I am not very involved with that sport - although I have sold a few young horses as hunters!

The breed shows I was actually referring to were the dressage classes. I don't object to the care, etc. Obviously they are valuable animals and well cared for, and everyone (I think) is aware of the feeding problems.
Rather, I was referring to line classes
- where temperaments are rarely noticed. And actually even-tempered horses are usually not as well scored because they don't show 'flash' (Sound familiar??? think Arab)
- where the canter is not at all evaluated (and this is the most important gait)
- where ridability is unable to be evaluated (how many of us have been stuck with beautiful idiots?)
- where young horses are shown in a bridle with metal bits and yanked, yanked, yanked on until they are dead in the mouth (Yes, I know professional handlers are better than this. But how many out there are professionals? And I have started a few horses that were shown by professionals and they were just about as dead mouthed)
- And where jumpers don't stand a chance because who cares how well they move as long as they make it over the jump neatly and well (this is actually more geared towards kuerings, because I don't think any jumper breeders would worry about breed shows)

- whew! - I feel better now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And yes, breed shows are great for a youngster. But my preferred method of exposure is taking them to shows along with their RIDING siblings that are actually UNDER SADDLE (gasp!) and letting them take it all in that way. A few hours tied to the trailer or left in a nice stall, or best of all, put into a show paddock, does wonders for their minds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And yes Spot - my flame suit is zipped, resprayed with retardant, and the goggles are on nice and tight!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 22, 2003, 08:52 PM

I can think of lots of successful horses that win in the Sport Horse shows (In hand) and have successful under saddle careers. Juventus, Scimitar, Rodioso, and the mare Capricia have all had top honors at DAD - and they are also doing well under saddle.

Things are a little different with the hunter breeding - but it is only a few who kill themselves (and their horses) to win the national honors.

I show my young stock in everything we can locally (hunter breeding and sport horse in hand). There is no way I consider it the most important thing that the horse is ever going to do. I have had lots of great comments about how calm my 3 or 4 yr olds are at their first shows (US) - and I attribute it to having taken them out as babies. There is a place for showing horses in hand - IMO.

meghan1963

Jan. 23, 2003, 05:15 AM

I agree that horses that win at breed shows often go on to be very successful performance & breeding horses. Our now 6yr. old mare Persimmon (by Contango) has been Reserve Grand Champion at Dressage at Devon and Reserve Champion mare in in 2002 and she is a fantastic dressage horse. Last year she was the highest scoring horse & mare at the CBLM championships with 74% at Training lvl. and she had a lot of other wins. She is currently getting ready to do the FEI 6 yr.old classes and hopefully will get to go to Europe for the Championships. Persimmon was also had the highest IBOP (riding test) in the USA when she was presented at the Dutch inspection in 2001.

Johnny Be Good & Jamboree (both by Consul) both did very well at Dressage at Devon Breeding show as young horses, and now both are successful FEI dressage horses. One is trained by an adult amateur who is over 50 & the other has been ridden & shown by 2 young riders. I could go on & on (but won't do that to everyone) about other examples of horses that win breed shows and go on to be excellent performance horses.

Breeding for temperament and rideability is a must especially in NA where adult Amateurs make up the majority of riders. Fancy moving horses are wonderful to look at but they need to be rideable.

There are lots of NA breeder's (big & small operations) who are breeding really good horses. The overall quality of the US mare base has improved dramatically in the 15 years I have been involved with breeding. Breeder's have a much better understanding of what they are doing and realize that bloodlines DO matter. NA is a lot different than the EU so NA breeders need to keep in tune with this and find away to make their horses more accessible to buyers.

It is great to go to Europe and look at lots of horses in a short amount of time with a lot less expense involved for travel. That convenience is hard to overcome when people are working with professionals who have a limited amount of time to look for horses and want to make the trip worthwhile. American's are innovative capitalists, so I am sure we will figure it out soon.

Meghan

Allyn M

Jan. 23, 2003, 07:33 AM

Having read some of the latest posts I'm going to try ( without hopefully offending anyone ) to comment on these posts.
Jeannette...... If you are hoping to make an actual business of bringing youngsters along . Only try this if you have acres of pasture and will be able to feed them on a non- competitive basis. That way you will be able to charge your clients a conservative board and can spend your time with the babies when you are teaching them just the basics about once every two weeks or so. Being out with a group will teach them a great deal.If you are wanting to back and longline and all the things we do when they are about three years old then you need to decide ( IMHO )
a flat fee to get to a certain stage in their training. If you do it on a monthly basis you will discover that some can learn quickly and some seem to take forever ( Just like people ) and clients will want to spend as little as possible so it is always good to know up front how much it is going to cost.Good luck !! This is a much needed service in the USA.
Milliethe filly:I understand where you are coming from about the difference between a "hot"TB and a "hot" WB ,but consider that there may be another factor here.The American market for "Hunters"is made up of mostly TB geldings. That is what every amateur wants to ride and that is what they buy . There are some mares that have done really well but on an average most of the hunter and equitation horses are geldings.In Europe where they don't have hunter classes they ride both mares and stallions as well.So the "harmone factor " is more prevalent in imported horses. ( when was the last time you saw a TB stallion being shown in a hunter class? or even a jumper class ?) You know the "harmone factor"is a consideration even with people... some people don't start making decent decisions until their harmones quit running.
Also about showing horses in a bridle some people do not know that you must use a snaffle with an extra joint such as a Dr. Bristol because when you have the reins facing in a downward position and you are using a plain snaffle and you pull it down the jointed point will punch the roof of the horses mouth and make a sore there. I cannot figure how that would make them dead -mouthed though as the other action is on the bars of their mouth. /???
maggymay:
Simply because a stallion is not approved by a registry does not mean that he is a "mutt ". Perhaps his breeding and or performance is exemplary and his owners who are just breeding their own stock and don't care if they are registered or not ,have opted not to spend the thousands of dollars that it costs to have their horses approved or registered.For the most part I believe in the system of inspections. One of the major problems in the declining quality of claimers on the track and the reason that so many are sent to slaughter is that lots of owners have no one to rely on to help them make quality breeding decisions and a good inspection team will do just that.I don't however look for the jockey club to start that in my lifetime.
About breed shows ( for the good and for the bad )We have all seen what the halter classes have done to the American Quarter horse and I think no one wants that;but sometimes and I only am familiar with the dressage shows, I think that it is a good idea to get the horses out and get the breeders together so they can see what is being produced by what farms.I don't think anyone thinks that breeding scores are the ultimate criteria because that is how that horse looks at that time in his life and as we all know that changes from year to year. I do think it can help a young horse to sell and I can tell you from experience husbands are VERY happy when horses sell as young as possible.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Freehold

Jan. 23, 2003, 07:44 AM

I think it really depends on the breed the show is representing on whether the horses do well. Fred's AFR was unbeaten for five years straight on the line, and we all knowthathe is performing beautifully. I like the CSHA line shows. A really badly behaved horse is not all that likely to get pinned as well as one who behaves better. Of course any horse who won't move out won't pin as well. As for dead mouths, it really depends on the handler/trainer. My babies all get bridled a few times as yearlings even if they are not showing. Do any of them have dead mouths? Definitely not. Most of my leading training is done in a halter. Bridles are only introduced to a horse that is already leading well. Sure they do get the odd jerk on the reins, but not very often, and certainly not enough to deaden their mouths.

Arabbreeder

Jan. 23, 2003, 08:07 AM

Husbands and selling youngsters

Allyn M., I can totally relate to your comments here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As far as breed shows and showing youngsters, I believe there is a definate place for breed shows, and getting the youngsters out there gives them valuable experiences their "sponge" minds can absorb for later use. I do see major problems in how most youngsters are brought up these days, we are in too big of a hurry to get them going and rarely is enough time put into just pasture play. Horses NEED turnout no matter their ages but especially rapidly growing, developing bodies and minds of the young benefit tremendously from being left alone to learn and become part of a herd hierarchy in their natural environment. I feel many behavioral problems, resistances and unwillingness stems from immaturity and also from lack of herd-life not to mention being pushed too hard too early in their lives. How many youngsters spend their entire formative years holed up in a stall perpetually separated from their peers? By the time I showed one of my two year olds in-hand at her first show her competition had eons of experience, conditioning, training and prepping under their belts started from birth and continued on. I only took her as a learning experience both for myself and the filly, and observing some of the "fried" minds presented in that ring, I am a firm believer in slowing things down. And it's found in EVERY aspect of the Equine industry, in every breed, and in virtually all levels of competition and show.

www.blackvistaarabians.com (http://www.blackvistaarabians.com)

mbp

Jan. 23, 2003, 11:59 AM

some good points all around

Allyn - re: a research group - I think that there are several attempts being made at this. I would like to participate some in that, but I do have to admit that between work (with me as my sole means of support) taking care of 12 horses by myself and now with my mother's stroke, there may be some limits on how quickly I could make progress. I think that CM Frank is interested in working with USAEq to generate a better database for sport horses in general. It is really hard, tb or wb, here in the states to get some of the same performance info that they have available in Europe - no FN rankings, no BLUPs, etc. However, a lot of stallions are imported (or are being used through frozen) and have this info, so there is at least SOMETHING to look to for most WBs.

I don't really have a wb vs tb type of bias. I love both (although a typey tb mare will always steal my heart). I am looking more at the question of the industry - as an industry - generating horses for the bulk of the market here. I think that there are breeders here who are breeding just plain fantastic horses. But in addressing the issue of why are the horses so much easier to find/cheaper/better started/easier to look at in Europe - that is the context where I am saying I think that 1)we need to quit fractionalizing our breeders over too many registries; 2) work with the domestic mare base (which does not mean discounting imported mares, but simply that the organizational and promotional model needs to incorporate what is available; 3)push for 3/4 yo testings similar to what they do in Sweden, where you begin to get actual information about a stallions get under saddle fairly early and which would also be an optimal look/sell situation for US owners and buyers; 4)promote and push for records and databases that will begin to give us some of the info that is available in Europe (and again - our fractionalized breeders spread more thinly over multiple registries don't give as much clout or impetus here as if there were a more unified voice) and 5)address the issue of starting young horses more economically. Those are the things that I think are lacking, but that is jmo.

I do agree BOTH that in-hand classes are not the end all and be all, AND that they are great opportunities to both see what a stallion is putting on the ground and get youngsters out and about. I do think the canter issue is an issue. BTW - Several of the registries now include having breeding mares looked at free for canter evaluation - a very good thing for both jumpers and dressage(my fave) horses. While this would be more pandemonium and time restrictive than you could justify for breed shows, keep in mind that there ARE materiales classes at those shows too - so there is a shot of the canter to get a better evaluation, along with temperament, rideability etc.

I would also add, to the list that was given of Juventus, et al, as successful breed show and show horses, that LA Baltic Inspiration has had good success both with jumping and dressage and was a winner at Devon. But, I do agree that sometimes the trot is overemphasized (particularly a lot of "front", which is perhaps also being overemphasized in the performance ring as well?) and temperament perhaps not as much. But it's just a class - just a few ring minutes. There really is only so much that a breed show judge can be asked to derive in that time.

Again, IMO successfully implementing a "cross registry" 3/4yo testing (not just IBOPs for a few mares) here would go a long way to address a lot of these things. If we used something like the Swedish model, and perhaps got the USDF Breeding Committe or a USAEq committe to set up breeders regions and GMOs or similar, and worked with local breeders GMOs (not one particular registry) to organize these, we would have a multiple great spots for buyers to go look at young prospects at least, something that would begin to tie breeders and breeders groups together to get them working together, have a standardized goal and format that could be used for more consistently getting horses prepared for this testing and that could perhaps lead to an organized system to help support those trainers who want to work with owners and breeders for this; with the organization through a national org (and not mulitple registries all with slightly varying tests and approaches) we could have direct results for feeding into a database; and it would give breeders a great opportunity to see how some stallions get are doing when started - a bit of a showcase.

mountain girl

Jan. 24, 2003, 02:34 PM

Thanks for all the informative and thoughtful posts on this subject. I am responding mostly to Allyn, mpb, and Spot on the tb warmlood stuff. I too lucked into a mare in the family of mpb's and Spot's mares. She is sired by Stagedoor Johnny and awesome. I think I only lucked into her because Maine is the boonies, and someone didn't know what they had. I got her for dressage, but got converted to eventing, and when racing injuries interfered with that, we moved on to hunters. She has won a lot at all of these. At first I looked into another horse for eventing when she wasn't sound enough for my ambition, but could find no horse like her or as good as her. So I changed my sport to hunters. I also realized, since everyone told me, and since I could not replace her, that I should breed her. It was only then, that I found out she had a famous sire, who was the broodmare sire of Grand Prix jumper Tashiling, among other well known sport horses, such as Worth the Trust. I only found this out from consulting the (defunct?) PHR stallion directory. My mare is in foal to A Fine Romance, a young beautiful tb champion sire of top hunter, grand prix, and eventing prospects, some of whom are placed with some prestigious riders. My unregistered tb foal should have the potential to be a champion hunter or eventer like its mom, or a Grand Prix horse. What does this mean? I believe it can be done with our tbs and I would like a tb sporthorse registry with inspections and education on conformation and bloodlines. Maybe the Rolex Sporthorse Education Seminar that is brewing could be a start. I have had dumb luck stumbling on my mare, but she has made me a believer.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 24, 2003, 07:56 PM

Well, I have always thought that hunter prices are ridiculous. But most people who are complaining are in the east where the market might possibly be flooded. I know here, in northern California, the market is still strong.

Something to note though, and which has been mentioned before, hunters is not a universal sport in Europe, only England. Horses that are good for hunters here are not in the least desired there. They are usually poor jumpers or untalented dressage horses. The people that are bragging about getting cheap horses there are indeed finding deals. However, it might take a fair amount of training to get them to go in the desired 'frame' for hunters.

I think the most important thing to note is that makes a horse expensive is the training. Raw potential is not as valuable any more. It is the training that makes a horse go for good money. And that is difficult to get.

MsHunter

Jan. 25, 2003, 04:29 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Milliethe filly, Let me explain how Hunter Breeding done as a means that is not to an end can be applied successfully to a young horse. I routinely show horses for people (and myself) and explicitly state I will NOT CHASE ANY points of any kind. We show the WHOLE season and spread it out (as opposed to 10 shows in APril and 10 in May etc in our area) and I take horses/ponies to each show, but not the same ones everytime (therefore I look like I am chasing points LOL), we always get a zone, national, state award because I won't show something that IN MY MIND (not any other handlers mind) is a TO BE PERFORMANCE horse.
Thankfully at the BEST shows with the BEST judges I have proved to be right on all accounts. In any case, I bred,foaled, weaned a TB horse out of a JC mare by a JC stallion but bred AI so it has IHF and NJBHA papers only (oh well to the must have papers group). He showed LIGHTLY as a yearling, and NOT AT ALL at 2 and was broke at 2 at home and came back out at 3 and showed LIGHTLY at IHF and some local A shows u/s and in the baby greens. Numerous offers were turned down on him, but after IHF
and being BYHin HB and winning the IHF CHallenge and jumping around and getting a hack prize he was sold to one of the best hunter riders in the country. I am sure no one will know, no one will remember, his name might get changed etc etc (that is what is wrong with the system, not acknowledging the breeders) BUT that is the way my program is designed to work.
All but ONE of my homebreds successfully made it to the hunter rings competitively. The one that didn't sustained injuries in another state. That is also part of having babies.
I think anyones breeding program has to have a goal in mind, and if you stick to the goal, you'll ultimately be successful if your horses teach you more along the way. Things like culling come to mind. Sorry this topic annoys me sometimes as I still think we need to have a way to track who bred what and who the successful breeders are NOT just who the best SIRES are.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Spot

Jan. 25, 2003, 06:24 AM

MsHunter - amen!

I believe over in Europe, the breeders are mentioned and honored as well. It leads to more breeders wanting to be acknowledged and the ones that have been honored, knowing that they are on the right track and having the accolades to prove it!

It also shows buyers which breeders are at the top of their games. Which have a breeding program that has proven to work, has stood the test of time and produces winning athletes.

I dont think any breeder would ask for more - than to be publicly acknowledged for their successes.

"Spot"

Liverpool

Jan. 25, 2003, 07:37 AM

I would second maggymay's suggestion that you might want to look at the "selling" thread on the H/J forum.

As one of the posters there, and as a recent buyer, I found this discussion interesting. I'll share a few thoughts with you, as I think I am probably fairly representative of the buyers that some of you are trying to attract.

I am a good - but not great - amateur rider, and this is my hobby. I work full time and have *some* other responsibilities... so much as I would love to spend my day at the barn, the reality is I have to board my horses and depend on others to care for them.

I started looking for a new horse in late summer/early Fall. I wanted a nice young horse that I could point toward the hunter ring over the next few years, and maybe into the jumpers someday, if it showed enough scope, but that was optional. And I am talking about A/O level competition, not the Grand Prix ring, BTW.

My priorities were finding a sound, quiet, decently started gelding that I could put some miles and polish on. While I wanted something with the ability to move OK and jump WELL, first and foremost, I was looking for a good mind and a nice temperment - something around 3 or 4 years old, that had been at least started on the flat, that would be PLEASANT to ride and work with.

Riding is what I do for fun, after a long day at work. Over the years, I have had many project horses, and I CAN and HAVE dealt with hot and difficult ones with some success - they were talented, but not easy. At my age and at this point in my life, I really don't care if the horse has won everything and can jump the moon; if he's a PITA to ride I don't want him.

I don't know a lot about TB bloodlines (just those of my own gelding) and basically zero about WBs. However, I do see what other adults around me have bought, and most of them are warmbloods, many imported. I have an older TB and like him, but have not seen many young TBs lately with his mind and body type - big, strong, sound and sane.

So I think to myself, maybe I will look into the WB farms these horses came from, and see what the deal is... they seem like nice amateur horses, with all the characteristics that I am looking for.

When I called these (US) farms and asked about whether they might have any young hunter prospects available, I was always told oh, yes, we have PERFECT hunter prospects... and then it would start!

"We have one so-and-so baby, he is the grandson of whoosywhatsit, and you know of course that whoosywhatsit is the second cousin twice removed from mrbigname who got an 86% percent at his stallion approvals in 1963! AND, we have another fabulous, lotsofstuff filly that we have seen jumping over a pole in the arena by herself that we just KNOW is going to be in the Olympics someday! You know her dam prettysmallpony *almost* ended up in the hunter ring before we decided not to! Now, she is just a little teensy weeny bit small, but we are sure she will be perfect for someone who doesn't need a big horse who will be over 15 hands!"

Of course my response is, "uh, that's great... I am afraid I don't know as much as I should about XYZ breeding... I am just looking for a nice amateur hunter prospect for myself. Can you tell me a little bit more about what sort of training the colt has had?"

And the response was almost always "OHHH. long pause. You want something that is already under saddle. Hmmmmmm. Well, we really don't have anything in your price range that is really broken yet...you should really look at the yearlings though, they are PERFECT!!" This was in the $20-30k range.

The five year old I bought was imported in August. He came from a former E.German state breeding program. He is nicely built, correct to look at, a good (not fab) mover with a great jump and he is lovely to ride... As a bonus he is a handsome black with chrome, and 16.3 hands with a huge step. He has good dressage basics and will jump around 3'6" course in a business like way, and he was priced the SAME as the US two year olds I was shown...

I know breeders are passionate about bloodlines and can appreciate the expenses that go into breeding a nice quality baby. But if you want to sell them to people like me, you would do well to focus on the stuff that matters to me rather than to you! I am NOT trying to offend anyone, but I think the likelihood of the average amateur buyer learning the intricacies of bloodlines is slim and none. Breeding should be about improving performance. If you want to get the average buyer's interest, tell them about the PERFORMANCE of your horse and his relatives. I don't know if 86% at some evaluation I've never heard of is good or bad... but if you tell me, well, this stallion won a lot at the Nations Cup level or this horse's half brother is winning in the amateur ring at WEF, that is something I understand and will appreciate.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 25, 2003, 09:12 AM

You see, it is comments like this that drive me crazy. I don't mean to single you out Liverpool, but so many buyers have this opinion!!
and it is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Think of it this way, if you were to buy a car, would you do some research into which model is most suited? Would you look at the consumer rating? Would you look at the functionability (if that is a word!)? Of course you would!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Same goes for horses. Breeders obsess about bloodlines because we breed along certain lines to produce certain traits!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
If you are looking for a great dressage horse, then DON'T buy a horse that has strong Concorde or Alme lines (just as an example).
If you are looking for a horse that is a super jumper, DON'T look at a horse that is Weltmeyer or Contucci (for example).
Same goes for hunters!! You want a horse that has an average, but not spectacular jumping career, maybe a smidgen of dressage blood as well.

You see, these horse have been bred for many generations for a SPECIFIC job. Many are not suitable for every discipline. You are right, breeding is supposed to produce better performance horses. But usually they are bred for a SPECIFIC performance!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As a buyer, I would NEVER go with a trainer that does not have a very, very good knowledge of bloodlines. And I would never buy a horse without some idea of his bloodlines. WHY?? Because Europe has been breeding specialists for some time now.

For example. I have a friend who had a trainer who went to Europe to go horse shopping for her. This trainer bought a lovely young dressage prospect. Everything seemed to go well for a while. Everyone was happy. Then my friend wanted to progress further. Resistance, unhappiness everywhere. Well, the horse she bought comes from strong jumping lines. They are known to be difficult, strong horses. Now my friend swears that she will never buy a horse without looking into the blood first. And this is just one example, I know of dozens out there who face the same problem. There are many people out there frustrated with their horses without knowing why, but ten minutes on the internet could probably explain the problem.

As a buyer, it is YOUR responsibility to know at least what you want.

When I go to buy a horse I do this....
1) decide what discipline I am looking at.
2) Go on the internet and click around and see what lines the professional are riding. See what lines are selling in Europe. See what names are hot for whatever sport you want. You can easily become expert bloodline researcher in just a few evenings of internet time. Isn't it worth it to you to invest a little time in your future partner????
3) Find a trainer or go to farms that have these bloodlines and try to find something along these lines.

Or do the reverse. Find a horse you like, then look up it's bloodlines on the internet. Takes three minutes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Educate yourself!!! Bloodlines are as important to the buyer as to the seller!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Liverpool

Jan. 25, 2003, 09:46 AM

Millie,

I disagree with you, although I hear where you are coming from.

You can consider me ignorant, if you want. Many breeders would agree with you - but then, of course, that is also why you are losing out to the importers/sellers, who know how to market horses to buyers like me.

The original question was "why do buyers seem to favor imports" and the answer is they are often further along and less expensive than their US counterparts. In addition, to students of breeding, they do in fact offer very well documented breeding histories, which is a benefit but not the deciding factor for most amateur rider/buyers.

As a buyer, I know exactly what I am looking for, and I also know how to evaluate a horse as an individual.

While you can breed a horse AIMING to produce certain characteristics - and of course it is reasonable to expect aspects of conformation, temperment etc to be passed down - there is NO WAY to guarantee it. The worst traits can be passed down absent the good ones, or you can sometimes get a foal that seems to have inherited very little from either parent.

Many breeders expect buyers to accept that their UNPROVEN prospect will be a star in its discipline solely on the basis of its parentage. Some buyers are willing to agree and accept this; I am not one of them. I judge each horse as an individual, and evaluate them accordingly.

You may not like this - but again, this is probably one of the major reasons that US buyers import rather than buying locally.

As an aside, the horse I bought did come from a very well established breeding program. Thanks to some members of this board, I have learned a bit about his breeding, and was tickled to find he has some very accomplished relatives. So I am not saying that there is no point in breeding for performance - just that in terms of marketing to many buyers, it is a very secondary consideration, and almost meaningless if the horse has not accomplished anything as an individual.

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 25, 2003, 10:48 AM

I actually think the ones who mostly complain about there not being buyers are those attempting to sell unbroke young horses.

I know that I do not even bother to advertise young, unbroke horses. When any of my baby horses sell, it is strictly through word of mouth as my reputation is good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, for young, three year olds going under saddle...well, I am feeling worried if they are not sold after a month of advertising. Usually they are gone within a few weeks of the ads coming out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I wish I had the time to breed and train more. I can't produce enough to meet the demand. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

That would be the advantage the Europeans have over us...sheer numbers. Germany has over 50,000 foals a year alone (how is that for a baby mill!). Altogether, according to the WBF statistics, almost 100,000 warmblood babies are born EVERY YEAR in Europe. That compares to how many here? Maybe 10,000 per year?? Most of which are not for sale. You bet they are cheaper there. And you can bet they are very much picked over as well. Unless you pay good money for them, they are most likely someone else's rejects. Of course, another man's reject is another's star. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Just because it does not do its job well in Germany, does not mean it won't be great over here. I have seen some super, gorgeous imports. But they were quality animals that cost a wack load of money.

At any rate, I am glad there are some people who are very happy with their imports. There are some nice ones out there for sure. And there can be some good deals. I have imported a few, and my best broodmare is an imported mare. But I paid quite a lot for them, and only bought because I coudn't find the bloodlines here. It would have been cheaper to stay domestic in the long run if I hadn't had been concerned about breeding.

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 25, 2003, 10:59 AM

I just want to clarify - I don't mean to call you (or anyone else) ignorant in a negative, snotty way. I just mean unaware, or unknowledgeable about bloodlines. Does that make sense?
Perhaps ignorant was a bit strong.
But I would just love for people to be just a little more aware of how important bloodlines are when selecting a horse and not discount it when breeders attempt to explain them. Especially since it is so EASY to find out with our friend the internet!!!

And you are right, a baby horse can be a pretty much unknown as to its potential regardless of its blood. Hence the demand for broke horses vs. babies.

And your horse sounds absolutely lovely. I am glad you found a good one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Liverpool

Jan. 25, 2003, 01:03 PM

Millie,
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about bloodlines. I guess you could say that is ignorance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif No hard feelings.

I know breeders feel that bloodlines are really important, and that many spend lifetimes researching them. It must be lovely when a buyer comes along that can really appreciate it!

I do think that most horses with decent conformation can do the jobs amateurs want them to. It doesn't take a world class horse to jump around 3'6" - and most ammies don't even want to go that far. So honestly I am not sure it really IS important to know bloodlines, at least for someone like me. It is a point of interest - just like "oh, he's bay. That's nice." I don't REALLY care what color he is, but I like bays, so it could be a plus. Do you see what I am saying? When I try a horse, I like to see one that is well made, with good natural balance and a willing temperment. I like a big step and a good neck that comes out of a nice sloping shoulder, and a kind eye. And, even if he hasn't jumped much, I like one that will march down there and try to figure it out... not one that has heart failure upon seeing a pole on the ground.

Anyway, thank you for the kind wishes on the new horse. Sounds like yours are lovely too, and that you have put together a program that works really well.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 25, 2003, 01:04 PM

European horses are not cheaper for quality. The recent Hanoverian magazine had the record breaking foal at the Verden auction - $55,000. Euro - WOW for a baby! They are VERY good in Europe at doing a quick, "sales prep" undersaddle type training, and they are Excellent at making mediocre horses look good to a buyer. In many cases, that "quick training" method causes problems and the need for reschooling when you get them home.

The other hidden expense that I believe needs to be explored, is the long term health issues of being raised in a "mass produced" system. The imported horses I have seen have had lots of health and soundness issues - down the road.

If a horse basically needs routine annual vet work and deworming and stays sound and healthy until they are 20 - 25 years, and another needs joint injections, corrective shoeing, colic surgery, allergy drugs, etc. from 6 - 8 on, the life time cost difference will be tremendous.

Again, just what I have seen with the limited imports I have been exposed to. Not sure if it is a broad issue or not.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

MsHunter

Jan. 25, 2003, 02:02 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Liverpool, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!
I breed for TWO THINGS ONLY..........
"How does it move and how does it jump?
If you call me, I am going to tell you
how old it is, what it is doing and how it moves and jumps. I will tell you who it is by and out of and what the FULL SIBLINGS are doing or have done. BUT.. I also have TBs off track I reschool and sell, and ponies etc etc.
So many breeders are in a hurry to sell what hits the ground. I try SO SO HARD not to be.
Sometimes I have to sell one young and affordable to keep the program going. I have a
1/2 sister to the one who was sold to a great hunter rider, it is a foal, we have turned down ridiculous in my husbands mind $$, but unless it will go to the right home it is not for sale now. Yes, I'd love to have the $$, but I also do this because I enjoy it and i like to see them jump around at indoors etc one day! Ideally for me, they sell as weanlings or they sell as 3 year olds. Anything in between and I am guaranteed to lose money. I also don't care about ratings and approvals, but I do hunters, so again how doe sit move and how does it jump? LOL..

Oh and Liverpool when I sold my weanling we free jumped him (DOUBLE FLAME SUIT ON LOL)
he moves and he jumps and he will go with new owner to a few breeding shows until of age.
A professional bought him that rides great LOL!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

square halt

Jan. 25, 2003, 03:35 PM

As a very small breeder, with five more babies coming along, I am interested in selling my babies once they have "chosen" their paths, and have been correctly started. Not sure that is such a smart move, but part of what I love about it is getting to see how the babies will grow and compete. I know most breeders sell, if possible, in utero or as soon as the baby hits the ground. I don't like that idea, but also know there are several good reasons to do it this way:
Accidents
Injury
Illness
Developmental disappointment
Costs of maintaining babies such as vet, farrier, dentist, etc.
Still, I have a coming five year old gelding that I thought was OK, turning out to be spectacular. I paid to have him correctly started by a wonderful professional. It has been so rewarding to see him grow and mature. I think I would prefer it this way. However, will be interesting to see if I lose my shirt in the coming years!

Liverpool

Jan. 25, 2003, 05:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Liverpool, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!
I breed for TWO THINGS ONLY..........
"How does it move and how does it jump?
If you call me, I am going to tell you
how old it is, what it is doing and how it moves and jumps. I will tell you who it is by and out of and what the FULL SIBLINGS are doing or have done. BUT.. I also have TBs off track I reschool and sell, and ponies etc etc.
So many breeders are in a hurry to sell what hits the ground. I try SO SO HARD not to be.
Sometimes I have to sell one young and affordable to keep the program going. I have a
1/2 sister to the one who was sold to a great hunter rider, it is a foal, we have turned down ridiculous in my husbands mind $$, but unless it will go to the right home it is not for sale now. Yes, I'd love to have the $$, but I also do this because I enjoy it and i like to see them jump around at indoors etc one day! Ideally for me, they sell as weanlings or they sell as 3 year olds. Anything in between and I am guaranteed to lose money. I also don't care about ratings and approvals, but I do hunters, so again how doe sit move and how does it jump? LOL..

Oh and Liverpool when I sold my weanling we free jumped him (DOUBLE FLAME SUIT ON LOL)
he moves and he jumps and he will go with new owner to a few breeding shows until of age.
A professional bought him that rides great LOL!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MsHunter, is there room in your flame suit for me??? LOL.

I know your program is terrific, and congrats on the weanling sale!!!

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Celtic Witch

Jan. 25, 2003, 07:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
The recent Hanoverian magazine had the record breaking foal at the Verden auction - $55,000. Euro - WOW for a baby! They are VERY good in Europe at doing a quick, "sales prep" undersaddle type training, and they are Excellent at making mediocre horses look good to a buyer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you know where to look and have an honest middle man, they are a helluva lot cheaper; especially for the amateur who doesn't want to go past 2nd Level dressage, prelim eventing, or 3'6 hunter/jumpers.

Again, I can get plenty of those who are sound, solid citizens for around 12k at 5 years. No, they are not Intenational gonnabes, just a good horse.

And you can get "lucky" if you are patient. I had to force the sale through on my last guy as the show jumper who imported him to the UK did not want to sell as he knew he'd make a chunk more in just a few months (thank god his dealer is a good friend of mine!). He was vetted for me by the man who was at that time the Queen Mother's equine veterinarian. When he called to give me the report, he also asked if the horse was staying entire and, if so, could he book his daughter's show jumper to him.

Also, most Europeans will not drop the amount of money that the North & South Americans, Japanese and Swiss will for a prospect. Prices tend to go up when one of them walks into the barn just as a dealer I knew in the UK priced her imports according to the car and clothes of the customer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Now, if I were shopping for a customer who wanted a youngster, I'd probably suggest staying Stateside/Canada and get something hand raised as it will lessen later headaches if the two do not have to learn together straight away. However, if shopping for myself, I don't mind going home for a 3 year old and saving dosh by having to do all the ground work myself (which I rather enjoy).

And, for all those who insist Europe isn't cheaper, look at who the major buyers at the auctions are and my dealer friend in the UK has (possibly had by this time) a gorgeous, upstanding black 16.2hh 5 year old gelding by Darco who has had a year of successfully jumping BSJA to 3'9 for sale for $14k. Which would make it around $19k w/import.

Susie

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jan. 26, 2003, 06:03 AM

::When I called these (US) farms and asked about whether they might have any young hunter prospects available, I was always told oh, yes, we have PERFECT hunter prospects... and then it would start!::

What struck me, as a breeder, in Liverpool's first post is that the question was NOT "I am looking for a young hunter prospect already under saddle," but INSTEAD was " ... any young hunter prospects available."

In my experience, when you call a breeder looking for a horse you will find the majority of what a breeder has available are babies.

If I were given the question as posed in the post (and if I had hunter babies), I would respond that yes I did and would either start describing them or ask what age, gender, size, etc they were looking for. If a caller asked if I had "young hunter prospects already under saddle," and I didn't, I would say so and not try to pitch a baby to them.

Good breeders are very well versed in bloodlines, and if you are working with one who is knowledgable in this area, it is a good thing.

Liverpool, were you objecting to the pitch you described as just "name dropping" of sires, dams, and second cousins? Or would you object to a pitch more along the lines of what a serious breeder might give, which did describe the performance successes of sire, dam, grandsires, granddams, tail female lines, and select "lateral" relatives?

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Spot

Jan. 26, 2003, 12:12 PM

Tannenwald Trakehner - good points!

If you start babbling on about how this colt's full brother is a champion junior jumper, and his half sister excels in eventing, when the caller is looking for a nice, elegant hunter prospect - then I think you are going to turn them off in a hurry!

But, if you tell them that the sire of your colt is XXX, who is quite well known for the hunters he has produced, such as "ABC" and "DEF" and GHI" - who incidentally was 2nd in his zone in the Green Working Hunters this year, then yes - it has a lot of relevance and should be of great interest to the potential purchaser.
Then if you can go on to say that dam is by XXX which is a well know hunter producing line as well, having produced the excellent hunters "MNO" and PQR", and the dam herself competed up to the 3'6" level during her showing days, then again - you have shown not only specific knowledge relating to what they are looking for, but also a lot of smarts as a seller in really emphasizing how these features directly relate to what this client is looking for.

Approached in this manner, I would think that ANY buyer would really appreciate the information you are providing to them

"Spot"

MsHunter

Jan. 26, 2003, 03:58 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Spot I think your missing Liverpools point. She wants to buy a horse that is broke and going slightly. She wants to know how it moves and jumps FIRST.........

If she likes that AND THEN YOU TELL HER well it's sire and dam did this, or it's full or half siblings did that, it may further confirm what she sees in the prospect that she likes.

BUT NO a buyer that wants to go in the performance ring shopping want to know about THIS HORSE not it's mom and dad. or brother and sister. Breeders go off on tangents that are a turn off to buyers of broke/going prospects.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Pony1

Jan. 26, 2003, 04:23 PM

Just A thought about American Breeding programs and marketing ...

I wonder if Americans performance horse breeders would benefit from taking a leaf out of the American pony breeders hand book? I bred hunter horses for years, maily TBs and made it my business to know about the conformation type of lines, as well as temperament and suitability that seemed to follow certain TB families - TBs "Used" to take the sires name and the dams name and blend the two, so you could have a pretty good guess just from the name what bloodline it was from.

Successful American pony breeders use a prefix in the name of their ponies to identify offspring from their breeding programs. Names such as Farnley, Gayfields, Foxlore etc, let a buyer know immediately the type of pony the breeding program can be expected to produce, as well as once the youngsters are in the show ring, you immediately see the top performers coming from certain breeding programs, because the prefix is part of the show name.

With so many breed registeries, the naming rules get very confusing... is a horse with a name starting with A from the line that is named after the mare, or named after the stallion? Depends on the breed, and it does take a lot of research and effort to educate yourself on what lines are successful in what discipline in each breed available for the discipline.

Just wonder if sport horse breeders used a prefix it might help identify their programs and keep track of the resulting offspring once they start their performance careers.

Until we get some system of tracking performance horses here in the US, pedigreed and not, I find it very hard to get a handle on what is a good line and what is not.

Just some random thoughts,

Oh, and as far as breed shows go, conformation and mind are most important to me both can be readily apparent in the ring as a baby, and I make mental notes on the youngsters I see throughout the show season when looking for stallions for breeding.

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Standing the imported Caspian pony stallion Cheleken Zealandia aka "BAXTER"
www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

MsHunter

Jan. 26, 2003, 04:29 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Pony1 I agree that is an EXCELLENT point!!
Say as a farm I use my prefix for what I have bred. The thing is, do you think it will stay with the horse or get changed along the way?
My thought is it will get dropped/or changed.
I have been considering doing it, I think you make a really incredible point.

As far as manners in HB, I just can't judge a breeding program by that. I had a TOUGH one last year that broke EASILY U/S. Piece of cake really. Got a top prize in a competitive class u/s at IHF finals. But, all year I heard the gossip ringside how "no one is gonna ever ride that one chuckle chuckle wink wink". Well, they ALL shut up after they saw her go u/s at a local show ridden by a 15 year old LOL before going to KY u/s and being 4th. IN fact, those were her only 2 times u/s.

My point is some of them really change when they get broke and going, some for the better and some for the worse. But, I know you know that too LOL!!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Pony1

Jan. 26, 2003, 05:00 PM

Ms Hunter...

Glad you did not dismiss the idea right away - perhaps sport horse breeders could put their mind to a way to encourage, incentise or mandate? buyers to keep the prefix at a minimum even if the buyer did change the rest of the name? With the ponies you have to pay big bucks to change a ponies name I believe, and if my blonde brain is remembering correctly the VPBA will not allow a registered prefix to be removed from a registered name with out the owner of the prefixes permission.

I also breed Dobes, my kennel name is Trinity - all pups have Trinity in their name - I make sure of it by registering the pups before they are sold. My dogs are a certain type, owners who are strangers and meet because they are attracted to another doberman usually call me and say - I just new it was one of your dogs because it "looked" like a Trinity dobe and was soooo sweet.

I digress... maybe American breeders could somehow come up with a way to ensure prefixes were identified via the new USAE horse Identity number? it would take some doing but the benefit might be worth it.

There is more to brain than hi-jinks in the breed ring, its outside as well and on the trailer, I walk around and look at most all the breed ring entries - your baby had a better round house kick than you-know-who many times in the ring, but outside the ring and on the trailer I never saw her really mis-behave. Some babies feel good - and act up - I am talking about the man eaters who show after show never seem to be able to handle all the comotion and sights and sounds. Babies, you could not pay me to even hold for 10 secs. As I get older - good mind and trainablity is more and more important - been there and done that with the bad ones when I was younger - too many nice stallions, and mares out there with nice tempered babies for me to deal with a hard headed gorilla *grin*

I am a died in the wool TB lover - love a smart horse and a smart dog.

Very interesting thread - I think the breeders will have to do major education as part of their marketing - but also listen to the people who are buying and in order to get them to spend the dollars here in the USA -

Has anyone addressed why they think the young US horses are not being offered with as good a level of training as the buyers "think?" they are getting in Europe on a horse of the same age?

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Standing the imported Caspian pony stallion Cheleken Zealandia aka "BAXTER"
www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

crystalacresponies

Jan. 26, 2003, 05:22 PM

Crystal has become a die-hard believer in the "Prefix". From now on, Crystal Acres will be in front of everything I breed. Major Fox will have a name change. I learned the hard way how easy it is for a pony named Foxen to become a pony named Carolinas Foxen http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif. If only I'd put Crystal Acres in front of it before I'd sold her. Maybe it still would have happened. Its very a very trendy name right now. If a pony has Red Fox anywhere in its breeding its name is changed to Carolinas. Imagine my dismay the other day to find out that a breeder has decided to use Foxen as their prefix!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Geez...the only original name I ever came up with. No one will ever know who the hell bred that pony now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Yes everyone!!!! Adopt a prefix!! Preferably an original one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Crystal Acres"
Home of Major Fox, Tribute In Light, All Dressed Up, and Foxen the Pony Princess!
www.underthepinesfarm.com (http://www.underthepinesfarm.com)

Spot

Jan. 26, 2003, 05:32 PM

Pony1 - some really excellent ideas raised!

Now - I have a thought with regards to your comment:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Has anyone addressed why they think the young US horses are not being offered with as good a level of training as the buyers "think?" they are getting in Europe on a horse of the same age?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could it be simply because in Europe, breeding horses is a business, the same as manufacturing and producing any other "product" that is available in the marketplace.
Since the product is being produced in such great numbers, they also have the necessary infrastructure in place to get that product to market as cheaply and efficiently as possible.
It is a refined process that has been honed to deliver the goods to market in the shortest and most economical time frame possible.

Here in North America, we generally dont tend to view horse production in such cut and dried and clinical terms. There are more emotions and dreams attached to our breeding programs, and we dont have the infrastructure in place to churn these volumes of horses out, through the breeding barn, into the training barns and then into the purchasers hands.

Our systems (if they even exist at all!) are more cumbersome, costly and hit and miss at best.

Think about it - of all of the breeders you know, how many actually break and train their own youngsters, or are most sent out to other farms for that portion of their training and development?

Do we have too many breeders that are incapable of breaking, riding and putting the finishing touches on their youngsters? They are simply interested in the breeding aspect of things but dont think far enough ahead into the future, to figure out what they will do with their foals if they still have them at 2 and 3 years of age?

Is our problem that we have no logical process and no system in place to train and market what we are producing?

"Spot"

Liverpool

Jan. 26, 2003, 05:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Spot I think your missing Liverpools point. She wants to buy a horse that is broke and going slightly. She wants to know how it moves and jumps FIRST.........

If she likes that AND THEN YOU TELL HER well it's sire and dam did this, or it's full or half siblings did that, it may further confirm what she sees in the prospect that she likes.

BUT NO a buyer that wants to go in the performance ring shopping want to know about THIS HORSE not it's mom and dad. or brother and sister. Breeders go off on tangents that are a turn off to buyers of broke/going prospects.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, MsHunter, you described it exactly... sorry to have been unclear.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

alexandra

Jan. 26, 2003, 08:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:

Could it be simply because in Europe, breeding horses is a business, the same as manufacturing and producing any other "product" that is available in the marketplace.
Since the product is being produced in such great numbers, they also have the necessary infrastructure in place to get that product to market as cheaply and efficiently as possible.
It is a refined process that has been honed to deliver the goods to market in the shortest and most economical time frame possible.

Here in North America, we generally dont tend to view horse production in such cut and dried and clinical terms. There are more emotions and dreams attached to our breeding programs, and we dont have the infrastructure in place to churn these volumes of horses out, through the breeding barn, into the training barns and then into the purchasers hands.

Our systems (if they even exist at all!) are more cumbersome, costly and hit and miss at best.

Think about it - of all of the breeders you know, how many actually break and train their own youngsters, or are most sent out to other farms for that portion of their training and development?

Do we have too many breeders that are incapable of breaking, riding and putting the finishing touches on their youngsters? They are simply interested in the breeding aspect of things but dont think far enough ahead into the future, to figure out what they will do with their foals if they still have them at 2 and 3 years of age?

Is our problem that we have no logical process and no system in place to train and market what we are producing?

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot I think there is a great point in what you state:
As an example I can tell a bit oabnout the Hannoverian Verband: about 1000 horses per year going through an auction at the Verband. about 9000 per year are born (branded Hanoverian). This means the Verband alone is marketing 10% of the population of one year.

If you have a good mare and want to sell, it you can also inform the Verband, they get a provision (which is definetly not in the 50% range..) if the mare is sold. A lot of buyers contact the Verband for broodmares and here you go, the match is made.

Than the structure of the Hannoverian Verband is that it has subsidaries in in the certain areas. They are run on professional base, but in the sparetime of the members. You have to be member in a local and the main Verband to be able to show at breeding shows, so there are a lot of members in those local clubs. Quite a few of these local clubs also have an sale system: either the "president" or somebody in that club has a sales list were breeders can list their horses for a small fee and which buyers can look at. Some of the clubs are helding some so called sales days, almost like auctions where say 20 - 40 horses are shown, but the buyer is doing negotioation directly with the breeder/owner.
I also know that one breeding club organizes its own small foal auction.

So there is already a strong institutionalized structure for marketing. Plus it is very common if a client calls and you have nothing fitting the needs, that you say get back to me in a week and I try to find something like that in this area. The buyer calls back and the original breeder shows him some horses of breeder friends in the area during one day. The original seller that was called in first place gets a little percentage of the price and everybody is happy if a deal is done.
The last thing mentioned is possible because breeders here talk to each other a lot and breeders know who has which bloodlines and is producing what.
This is again a point that you as a seller have to know your bloodlines and those of others and what they produce. The client such as mentioned by Liverpool does not care about the lines, he/she just wants a going horse. But the breeder who received the call at the beginning tries to find out what the buyer needs and with his knowledge is able to show just the horses that most likely (because of bloodlines and other reasons, such as how the other people selling are training the horse) would fit that need. There is a very strong network here.

Somebody mentioned the identification number of the USAE. That is exactly what is done here. Each horse gets at birth /unique dentification a number. With this number it is registered with the breeding registry (or if not registered it has to be recorded to some other organisation because everyhorse in Europe must have a passport with identification number). So even if names are changed the horse can be tracked.
If a horse is competing in Germany you have to register it with the subsidary of the FEI the FN and they keep record of the riding show results and have also the pedigree and breeder in their system.
Every riding show is under the rules of the FN and the results have to be reported to them by the club who helds the show. They collect now even not just the placed horses. They collect the complete results of the shows for their database.
This huge database is used e.g. to evaluate the breeding values of stallion, but as a buyer you can call them and get a show record of the horse you are looking at. Nobody can tell you "this is really an FEI prospect and did this and that show where it placed second" and it is not true...
You can also look up in a book or CD which horses or if any of a certain breeder have been successful, maybe full siblings to the one you are looking at. Breeders have the advantage that even if the horse is at the other end of Germany and the new owner does not keep in contact that they can find the horse and it results in the mentioned books or CD's that are published every year.
This system is something to help the market to be more transparent.
A transparent market always leads to better results for each party then a market that is not transparent (this is pure economic science...).

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

[This message was edited by alexandra on Jan. 27, 2003 at 01:19 AM.]

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jan. 26, 2003, 10:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MsHunter:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Spot I think your missing Liverpools point. She wants to buy a horse that is broke and going slightly. She wants to know how it moves and jumps FIRST.........

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it wasn't Spot who "missed your point," it was me. And still, if "she wants to buy a horse that is broke and going slightly," that should have been the question! May seem like a trivial issue of semantics, and maybe when you called you did ask for started horses, as opposed to "any hunter prospects." The point I was making is that a "hunter prospect" may be anything from a pre-weanling to a 15 year old, depending on who you ask. And if you call a breeder (ie, producer of babies) and ask about "hunter prospects" without clarifying age/level of training, you should not be surprised to hear about babies. From your post it seemed that you were saying it is bothersome/timewasting/ignorant of a breeder to start telling someone about baby hunter prospects, and to then yammer about bloodlines.

I guess another way of looking at it.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jan. 26, 2003, 10:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Has anyone addressed why they think the young US horses are not being offered with as good a level of training as the buyers "think?" they are getting in Europe on a horse of the same age?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, one thing is that horses in Europe are started fairly early and fairly hard when they are being prepped for export to the US. Yes, there is classical riding in Europe, and good trainers and horses brought along slowly. So don't blast me for generalizing. But I have it from a great number of people that the training put on their imported horses has been along the fast-track, with dressage horses pulled into frames and held up and forward by super-human European leg muscles, and with jumpers doing 4 and 5 feet yet not being able to travel straight nor balance themselves at a canter on even a 30 meter circle. People I have talked to in Germany have also complained about the crash-course training providing by many who are "training for the US market." Of course, once a horse develops these habits and "baggage," it is a much more difficult thing to un-teach than it would be to teach them correctly in the first place.

So you are very correct in the "think they are getting" distinction.

Another thing is that it is simply easier to ride in Europe than here. In the US horses are either for country mice or for rich people--they are a luxury item with big pricetags and huge maintenance costs. In Germany, for example, my cousin grew up riding horses at a barn not a 5 minute drive from her home in town. She got group lessons for 10 or 15 DM on school horses in an indoor arena. There were lots of shows to go to within easy travelling distance. Germany is only the size of many of our states, so activities are consolidated. After she got married, within walking or riding distance to her home in town was a community indoor arena. This is something that I think is just about unheard of here, and certainly could be a nice option for people who can't afford to build and maintain an indoor on their own. Under these circumstances, learning to ride, continuing building your skills, and testing them at shows is more accessible and cheaper than here. Thus, more riders become capable of competently "training" than do here.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Freehold

Jan. 27, 2003, 05:38 AM

I personally do the prefix thing with my babies (my babies are all F.E. somthing). The buyers I've had actually liked it - the prefix added some "class" to the babies by stating they are from an established breeding program (well, I am getting established - I'm still relatively new with my first babies coming four this year). I can't stop them from changing the names later, but hopefully they will continue to feel proud of the fact that they have a horse by a real breeder and not just something they picked up from the local auction. As for having trained horses already going, I know that I lose out on this because I believe strongly in taking my time with the babies (they get backed at three and don't do serious work until four), and I don't plan to change for the market. Hopefully in the long run I will become known for well trained, sound horses who are still out competing well into their teens.

As for the breeding thing. Bloodlines are nice, and I certainly do look for it in my choices of breeding stock, but to the buyer I have met the conformation, movement, soundness and temperament are the top priorities - not bloodlines. I have had good luck selling my yearlings (at a decent dollar although not the rich prices some sell at in the US) to people who are willing to count on the temperament and potential the babies have at that point.

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 27, 2003, 06:15 AM

A friend of mine that was Head Rider at a barn that imported a lot of young prospects use to complain that the 3 and 4 year old riding horses would begin to do flying changes as soon as you headed them across the centerline and always lengthen down the long side. They were trained to "do a pattern" for the sales. Quick, show prep, riders really holding them "up in front".

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Liverpool

Jan. 27, 2003, 06:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Well, it wasn't Spot who "missed your point," it was me. And still, if "she wants to buy a horse that is broke and going slightly," that should have been the question! May seem like a trivial issue of semantics, and maybe when you called you did ask for started horses, as opposed to "any hunter prospects." The point I was making is that a "hunter prospect" may be anything from a pre-weanling to a 15 year old, depending on who you ask. And if you call a breeder (ie, producer of babies) and ask about "hunter prospects" without clarifying age/level of training, you should not be surprised to hear about babies. From your post it seemed that you were saying it is bothersome/timewasting/ignorant of a breeder to start telling someone about baby hunter prospects, and to then yammer about bloodlines.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TT,

I did not realize I needed to be so precise in my description, sorry about that. In fact what I asked for was quite specific; ~4 years old, at least 16.2 with a quiet temperment, decent mover and a great jump. I specifically indicated I did not want an unbroken horse, as I am a working adult without the time and energy to invest in putting those first steps on one anymore, and further, I wanted to be able to evaluate it under saddle.

The horse did not need to be the hack winner, but had to jump well and the temperment issue was really key. I was prepared to spend in the neighborhood of ~$25K and frankly, given that I am not looking for the next HOTY, just a nice amateur horse to show and have fun with, I thought that should be PLENTY. And it turns out, I was right. However, it meant that most of the US farms I spoke with did not have anything other than unbroken two and sometimes three year olds to offer.

The original question was "are NA breeders missing the mark?" and I think many times they are - I was trying to describe why I thought that. As someone who had no intentions of getting an import but ended up with one anyway, I thought sharing my experiences would be helpful to those breeders who want people like me as customers.

It has been fascinating to read all these different posts. I would offer just one additional thought to those who are having trouble selling - remember that if you want to SELL a horse (or anything else) to tailor your presentation to the BUYER. Find out what is important to them. You don't have to AGREE that it is the most important thing (ie, you may think they are idiots to not care about bloodlines http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) but if what they care about is color/movement/what kinds of snacks they can feed it... lead with that information. You can always "educate" them later.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jan. 27, 2003, 07:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I did not realize I needed to be so precise in my description, sorry about that. In fact what I asked for was quite specific; ~4 years old, at least 16.2 with a quiet temperment, decent mover and a great jump. I specifically indicated I did not want an unbroken horse, as I am a working adult without the time and energy to invest in putting those first steps on one anymore, and further, I wanted to be able to evaluate it under saddle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then, given the question posed in that manner, I too would be bothered by a breeder pitching a baby to me. A yearling is so much different than a started/going horse that your query was obviously disregarded by the breeder to whom you spoke.

Sometimes, however, we do run into issues where the buyer THINKS they are decided but are not really. For example, I once had a call from a woman who had been shopping for a couple of years for a dressage prospect. She had vetted 5 horses and not had them pass, and they ranged in age from 6 months to five years. Obviously, she was interested in exploring various ages but her preference was a horse that was going; she certainly had been looking around enough for long enough to have an idea of what she really wanted.

When she called, she wanted a gelding, preferably bay or black. Since we had just sold our only gelding, I referred her to an acquaintance who had a dark gelding for sale. Ultimately, she bought a horse from the acquaintance, but it was NOT the dark gelding! It was a filly! This really struck me, because we HAVE fillies for sale, and because I believed she really only wanted a gelding, she did not even look at our horses. Plus, we are in a neighboring state; the horse she bought was on the west coast in Canada (and no, it was not a "Canadian bargain"; the horse was priced in US Dollars).

So to buyers, please be patient if the seller/breeder asks some questions about what you really need. Some of us, though probably not all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, are trying to be helpful, and not just running a "bait & switch" kind of operation!

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 27, 2003, 08:28 AM

I am in that situation as well right now. A couple came here to look at my 3 year old, as they wanted something ready to begin riding. While they were here, I asked them if they wanted to see the babies. They said yes, and guess what they are bringing their trainer back to see? The 6 month old.

Actually if the breeders you are calling only have babies and yearlings or even unstarted 2 to 3 year olds, they must be selling all of the broke and started ones. That would be the sign of nice horses in my opinion. If a breeder still has a 5 year old, they probably have so much invested, that they will lose money when sold.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Liverpool

Jan. 27, 2003, 09:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Posted by Fairview
Actually if the breeders you are calling only have babies and yearlings or even unstarted 2 to 3 year olds, they must be selling all of the broke and started ones. That would be the sign of nice horses in my opinion. If a breeder still has a 5 year old, they probably have so much invested, that they will lose money when sold. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the cases I came across, there were generally several nice-looking "under saddle" prospects on a website that I called to inquire about. However, they were priced WAY above what I was willing to spend. So the conversations were along the lines of "Well, if you can only spend twenty five thousand, all we could offer you would be a yearling or two year old..."

Now, don't get me wrong; I think it is great for those farms if they can get that kind of money! But again, to answer the original question, that is why I ended up with an import.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Hidden Treasure

Jan. 27, 2003, 09:48 AM

After spending three days reading through these posts, I am finally ready to comment! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif I wanted to agree with what a couple of others have touched on earlier, and ask, why don't more American buyers come up to Canada to buy? Its sounds as though the American dollar has a better exchange on the Canadian dollar than the Euro. The horses here are as equally well bred, and they are priced WAY lower than in the US. So you now have two things going for you to get a bang for your buck!

MsHunter, Having gotten into starting a lot of babies, I have to agree with you. Many of the ones that have the "Big Attitude", and you expect to be problems when starting, end up being the real stars. They seem to have more gonad material, and really enjoy thier new mission in life. They also seem to do better in the show ring as well. But the pushy, bossy unbroke baby can be intimidating to riders who are afraid to attempt to start them.

Pony1

Jan. 27, 2003, 11:18 AM

American breeders who do it all - and those that don't

After 30 years breeding horses and being used ot doing it all, and now having switched to ponies I have to admit to now breeding with the idea in mind to sell my youngsters after showing on the line at the breed shows, hopefully to some zone titles, but before the baby needs to be broken and started. I am 50, and don't bounce AT ALL any more - So I have no desire to "break em" myself at this point in my life which is why I switched to ponies (and if I sat on a young pony, believe me it would litterally break *LOL*)but I have partnered with a young woman with a phenominal child rider - who has first dibs on all the young prospects - for breaking and training. Any youngster who does not sell by 2 from my Phase I of our program, will move on to Phase II at her barn for breaking, training and showing. I know of a trainer/friend that breeds, and breaks and trains his own babies and thens sells - but... here is the problem from his and my perspective with putting the training on the young horses... doning flame proof suit!! including gloves and goggles *grin*

We as old timers 50-60 years old, are finding it very difficult to find RIDERS who can ride a baby, who have the hands and seat, who can follow directions and bring a baby along in the training program. I guess its a sign of getting older, but I just think the quality of young horseman and his riding abilities is not what it used to be. (when I walked 5 miles in the snow without shoes to school!) We seem to have more and more riders, lots of people who call themselves trainers and when I stand at the in gate at any "A" show to watch the classes - I am EMBARRASSED by the horrible riding and amazed that more people don't either fall off or get thrown off by their horses.

I am so lucky to have a partner with a child that can ride, because if I had to pick one out from the crowd that I could pay to ride my youngsters I would not be writing many checks. I see this in hunters, jumpers, and dressage.

It may be what some of you have mentioned, with regard to the easy access to training for the youngsters, but maybe we also need to look at getting the young riders trained so they can ride the youngsters? Is this the real problem with getting the babies trained? and why breeders need to hand off to a training barn?

Once you peel back the top level of the problem I do believe american breeders are facing some really big problems related to being able to put the training on their young horses if they themselves cannot do the riding.

Again very though provoking thread, and I expect some young whipper snapper to come along and kick my cane out of my hand, remember this is just one persons observation and opinion on the state of affairs here in the US.

"wonder if I should have climbed in one of those steel shark cages after donning the flame resistant suit????" hmmmmmmm

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Standing the imported Caspian pony stallion Cheleken Zealandia aka "BAXTER"
www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

alexandra

Jan. 27, 2003, 12:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pony1:
.... It may be what some of you have mentioned, with regard to the easy access to training for the youngsters, but maybe we also need to look at getting the young riders trained so they can ride the youngsters? Is this the real problem with getting the babies trained? and why breeders need to hand off to a training barn?

Once you peel back the top level of the problem I do believe american breeders are facing some really big problems related to being able to put the training on their young horses if they themselves cannot do the riding.

Again very though provoking thread, and I expect some young whipper snapper to come along and kick my cane out of my hand, remember this is just one persons observation and opinion on the state of affairs here in the US.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When reading your post I remembered that this is exactly what a friend of mine from NA said when looking at horses in Germany. Very often these horses at farms are ridden by daughters and sons of the breeders. Kids at the age of 13-18 maybe even younger. My friend was very impressed and asked who broke the horse in. They laughed and said, we did. And my friend told us that from her experience kids in NA would learn to ride in the following way: Parents buy a bomp proof pony or horse. The horse is maybe 20 or above but basically so old that it would not dare to do a wrong step. These horses have a certain amount of training in them and would do the tests/shows even with an underpant on them. My friend said that she did not know of any kids riding a 3yo not to speak about breaking a horse. After a few years on that bomb proof horse they consider themselves as very good riders, and than the catastrophe starts. Horses are bought, because experience and knowledge is missing the poor horse is considered as not good enough and a new one has to be found. She might be exaggerating, I do not know, but since pony1 made this comment there might be something true to it ?
And this fact might be the reason, why American buyers are looking for trained horses often in Europe. One of you already asked why are people looking for trained horses.

Who has a flame resistant suit for me now ???? Or maybe I should join Pony1 in her steel cage...

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

[This message was edited by alexandra on Jan. 27, 2003 at 04:47 PM.]

MsHunter

Jan. 27, 2003, 02:33 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hidden Treasure are you trying to take our US buyers over to Canada to take advantage of the exchange rate LOL!!! How dare you !!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pony1, my child is 6 close to 7 (April) and has started riding, and I also have gotten into the pony business over the last few years, but for different reasons, for ponies for her to ride later.. You will see me this year with even more ponies on the line than last. It is good for them. call me in a year if you need a jock !!

I know I am not a skinny minnny, but believe it or not I still get them started u/s. I used a working student with me last year who has moved on, but I have 2 new 15 year olds all ready to learn. They start learning on the green broke off the track horses, this is a good beginning towards never sat on before !!!

I agree with whoever said the ones you think will be hard usually aren't and teh ones you think will be easy wind up hard LOL!! You just never know...

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Spot

Jan. 27, 2003, 03:18 PM

Pony1 - your post really made me smile - a lot ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How true.

I think of the really good catch riders that I grew up with. Kim Kirton, Mike Grinyer, Mario Deslaurier, Doug Henry, Danny Foster, Tommy Gayford, Jimmy Elder, etc, etc. What made these riders really and truly great was that they got on a lot of unbroken crap in the early days, and by afternoon, were riding it over a 3 foot course to show somebody!
Mike Grinyer used to ride for an old fellow - Stu Holding - that bought all of his horses off the Mennonites, totally unbroke and unhandled out of the field. Within a day or so Mike was up on them, jumping them over fences to show to people.

My happiest days way back when was when I would go up to Stu's place to ride. You never knew if the horse you were about to get on had ever even had someone on their backs before, but you sure found out in a hurry and adapted quick! And as this youngster would be bucking and pitching around Stu would be cackling away and waving his cane at you which would spook the poor thing even more!

My parents never bought me a made horse. It was always something dragged out of a field somewhere that you had to figure out what to do with.

It has served me well to this day. All of the horses I ride are ex race trackees, some better broke than others but most seriously lacking in basics. You simply adapt and ask for simple things until you figure out exactly what you are dealing with!

And Pony 1 - I agree totally - geez it hurts like the dickens to come off now and I avoid it like the plague! not only do you not bounce anymore but you cant move for a good week afterwards either!

But there are no more people like that that start these horses, simply for the pure love of doing so, or for a few dollars. No more sale yards like Stu's or Goldie Blacks or Al Greco's where they got horses from "up north somewhere" and brought them down to sell, where people would stop in just for the experience of riding these horses for them. I considered it an honor and a privelege that Stu let me sit on his horses - he probably just saw me as just another stupid rider willing to risk my neck riding these unbroke horses!

those sure were the good old days ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Spot"

Sporthorse South

Jan. 27, 2003, 04:12 PM

Tannewald said - "People I have talked to in Germany have also complained about the crash-course training providing by many who are "training for the US market." "

While this may be the case at some German training barns, the young horse specialists that I have met in Germany put every horse on the same basic program (adjusted as necessary for the individual horse - some may need more lunging than others, etc.), without regard to where they think the horse is going to end up. As one of Germany's top young horse specialists said to me - "Good basics are good basics." In fact, he would probably laugh at the idea of putting some horses on a "crash-course" simply because they might be headed to the U.S. When he starts a horse, he rarely knows where it will end up, so his program is to start them, instill good basics in them, and sell them to whatever buyer comes along - whether the buyer is from Germany, the U.S., Canada, the U.K., Holland, Denmark, Austria, etc. This philosophy seems to be working just fine for him, as he has a steady stream of international customers beating a path to his door. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Boss Hoss

Jan. 27, 2003, 06:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What are we doing wrong here that we cannot convince the serious buyers, with cash in hand, that buying locally rather than spending thousands of dollars to fly over there, and several thousand more to bring the horses back is not the intelligent and practical thing to do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to say what an utter waste of jet fuel unless you are looking for TOP breeding stock. I've seen videos of proposed imports from Holland, for instance, and wasn't impressed.

There are enough quality horses already in this country for breeding we should be buying 2nd or 3rd generation "European" warmbloods now in this country.

I think what might be part of the issue is that while the main breeding stock is here, most people don't want to hatch their next dressage horse but buy them already under saddle, and possible the European markets have significant hatchlings available.

It's time we start developing our own American Warmbloods and leave the Europeans to their types. They haven't cornered the market on how to breed a good horse.

Hidden Treasure

Jan. 27, 2003, 07:24 PM

Spot, I'm with you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have always had either ex-trackies or started my own youngsters. Consequently i have never really gotten "UP THERE" in the showing world. 3'9" Jumpers was max for me. But I have seemed to aquire quite a nack for starting babies. I have started the odd one for friends etc. Now what I am wondering is this. If there is a shortage of people with the talent to start babies, should I quit my(non horse) job, and start babies full time. Is it worth losing your Ammy status to start babies? Is it fair to lose your Ammy status cause you know how to teach a baby to walk/trot/canter? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Pony1

Jan. 27, 2003, 07:34 PM

WOW not even a singed eye brow *grin* maybe most on this thread are more mature *LOL* than some of the others - one can only hope

Truely a great conversation, wish were were all sitting around a big fire place with hot buttered rums -

OK - so far it seems that training on a young prospect has risen to the top of the heap, as the reason a lot of buyers are going overseas and realistically that could be a huge difference in the cost of bringing along a young sales prospect and impact the final sales price.

In Europe, apparently, there are breeding programs that either have relatives or local riding talent that are readily available to help get youngsters started under saddle. The riders doing the training also apparently, do not, apparently, charge 3 prices for the time spent in the saddle doing the training.

I think it would be interesting to compare the costs of breeding, raising, and then bringing a youngster along under saddle to the age of 4 in Europe, and the cost of doing the same in the the US.

We have all ready been told (some pages ago in this thread) that stud fees in most cases for good stallions can be found for approximately $500 in Europe - IMHO it costs twice that to find a good stallion in the US - so double the cost right off the bat just for the stud fee. Other breeding costs i.e. AI are also probably higher for the US vs. Europe because as someone pointed out - the breeders in Europe have a choice of many stallions in a close proximity that may allow for live cover?? which most times is less expensive than AI, but even if they are breeding via AI - i wonder if the costs are similar or less expensive in Europe.

Costs of raising a foal in the US vs Europe? - my gut says more expensive here, but maybe not - can anyone give us an idea on what it costs to keep a youngster for 1 month over there? figure in hay, feed, stall, bedding, blacksmith - or if they are just pastured out in a field situation they surely are not as expensive to keep in Europe as those that are kept in stalls in the US

Then we get to the TRAINING -- speaking with a friend this evening, we both agreed that if we needed to send a 2 1/2 year old off to be broken and given 6 months months under saddle, in preparation for selling, it would cost at least $750/month and more likely $900/month, or more, to get the horse in a nice barn with a respected trainer that has the contacts and network to help get your youngster sold. so add another $6,000 to the cost of raising a youngster in the US...

It really is no wonder that some people have their young horses priced so high - Some people think they should be able to recoup every dime invested in the youngster until the time of the sale, instead of honestly evaluating the individual and its abilities and putting a fair market price on the young horse. IMHO horses are one business venture that you rarely, if ever recoup all the actual costs of providing the final product.

So Training is a huge chunk of the cost - but with things the way they are in the US - having to pay top dollar for training because you can't or don't want to do it all, has a huge impact on the cost of raising a youngster to sale day.

Ms Hunter - I've got quite a few years on you I believe - 10 years ago I was still in the saddle quite a bit, you too one day will be old *grin* With this cold weather my body remembers every bit of real estate I bought and paid for with a pound of flesh over the last 35 years - enjoy doing what you can now - it is very rewarding "doing it all" I never had a made horse to ride, unless I made it *grin* and loved every min in the saddle matching wits with the babies - I am glad that I have "been there- done that" cause I am very content to do my showing with 2 feet on the ground these days. Will also keep you in mind should my parters kid discover boys - I have considered spiking the kids cool-aid with with an anti-boy potion *grin* to make sure she loves horses forever - or at least until she is 18 *LOL*

At the end of the day, America and Canada both have some beautiful horses - but here in the US, I honestly believe it just plain costs more, to get them to 4 and 5 and ready to market.

I do like the idea of how the community of Euro breeders seem to help each other out regarding sales when they have a prospective buyer and don't have what they want in their own barn.

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Standing the imported Caspian pony stallion Cheleken Zealandia aka "BAXTER"
www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

Spot

Jan. 28, 2003, 04:03 AM

Hidden Treasure - tough question!
I guess it depends a lot on what area of the country you are in, how much business you could drum up bringing babies along, and what your amateur status means to you in real terms.

Are you better off at the end of the day losing your amateur status but earning XXX a month or year riding and handling the babies for several breeders?

It seems like it is a real need that needs to be filled, so if you can capitalize on it and support yourself by doing so, it might be a good avenue for you to consider pursuing.

Good luck!

"Spot"

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jan. 28, 2003, 05:48 AM

So can any of you breeders speculate on a break-even point/ monthly or total cost at which it would be worth it to you to pay me and Hidden Treasure to start your kids?

As in, you can sell unstarted 2 yr olds for X, people don't want to pay more than Y for a 3/4 yr old who is well started but green, so if you could find someone to to the bouncing for you (LOL) it would be worth this much $$ ___

And, thinking a bit about the fond remembrances of horses coming in unstarted and that afternoon popping around 3 foot courses, is that a route you would be interested in these days?? If someone with good seat, hands, and guts were willing to come spend a day or two at your farm for the "crash course" prepping horses for sale, would you be interested, or is that too much like the alleged European "pull em together for sale " model?? It does sound like it could fit with a co-operative auction model, where a bunch of breeders near each other chip in for a week of a pro riders time, then hold a joint auction...

That wouldn't be my business niche, but I'm brainstorming here...

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2003, 06:31 AM

I said it before, and I say it again, I think the NA horses are at par with the European ones.

But here is what I have learned from BBs about the industry:

Trainers charge you an arm and a leg for everything, groomers, muckers, braiders, blahblahblah and keep a tight grip on their tallents (students)

Shows charge for everything, office fees, Ahsa (whatever) fees, high entry fees...

The Pro/Am rule - quiet frankly I think it is outdated and hinders the advancement of riders.
In Germany, there is no such distinction between them in the show ring, you can verywell be competing with BNT in a class, but since ther is a built in handicap system, you also have the chance to beat him:
Riders earn a ranking, as well as hoses, and some classed, lower lever, are restricted to successfull riders on green horses, or not so good riders on seasoned campainers.

Many breeders have a talented amateur showing their horses and schooling them, to mutual benefit.

I feel that the infrastructure is sadly lacking.

I can't blame the breeder for wanting the money back, or he/she would forced to stop all together...
It's too much business, all around, not much sport....does that make any sense?

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2003, 06:37 AM

BTW, yes the crash tune up on sales horse does happen, I am sure, but that would be on horses that are allready under saddle for a while, and I believe wiuld be the aquivalent to the 30 days (60 or 90) professional training....

Allyn M

Jan. 28, 2003, 07:17 AM

Lots of really good information to think about in this thread. Really surprised that it has continued on so long so there must be a lot of interest in improving North American ( don't want to leave out the Canadians) breeding and sales. I say sales because unless people are just breeding for their one horse in a lifetime and they are going to use their own mare then you are either thinking of your efforts as charitable or you are in business.

The major differences in Europe and the US are 1. they have been at it much longer and have a VERY good system for tracking their produce.
2. I believe ( not completely sure ) that a horse has to be registered and now have a passport in order to show.Most of the registries have passports provided to the horses with their papers.You must have the papers transferred when you purchase a horse and if you are going to change the name that is done at that time and costs extra.Each registry is different ( the Belgians brand and register our horses as foals and the papers come the next summer )Don't know if they have something besides the F.E.I.for Euro that is comparable to the USEA but I think it is not the same.
3.The stallion stations ( both state and private ) have programs with local farmers where they furnish the semen for young up and coming stallions for a buy back arrangement on the foals. The semen for the more established and world class stallions is shipped all over the world. If the foals look good from the young stallion the station will buy back the stallion prospects and help to market the rest. They ALWAYS know the quality of the stock in their area or circle of influence ( as we used to call it in the real estate business .)
4.They use the young mares at age three and usually get two foals which are evaluated and then decisions made about their future.The really great mares that produce great stallions and premium mares are NEVER sold.
5. They cull their stock much more then we do over here because of the cultural differences in attitudes toward saving each one.Therefore they are continually upgrading the quality.
6. They all know each other and do a lot of trading at considerably lower prices then we would imagine.
7. Their horse shows are all either jumping or dressage and are relatively inexpensive to enter.I think that sometimes expenses for the really great riders are paid to encourage them to show at some shows.Attendance at the most minor affairs is huge and I have been to stallion selections attended each nite by 5,000 + excited fans.Tickets are not cheap either so they are not encouraging people to come. It is not viewed by people as a sport of the rich and their major entertainers and politicians are not embarrassed by their connection to the English horse world.
8.But most important IMHO is the cost of training issue.The riders capable of doing this in the USA are few and far between and I for one am pretty careful who I hire not only because of the welfare of the horses but also the liability issue.

Back to breeding I would be more than happy to work with anyone who wants to get into a breeding circle and who would have the same goals as we do.We could trade information and see whats possible. I am open to any programs that could help the American breeder.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

mbp

Jan. 28, 2003, 09:16 AM

Allyn - you might want to check out http://www.breedersgroup.com/ sorry I can't get links to work under this new format yet. They are based more little north of you but in your area and HFSH posts here some and is very involved in the group.

I would like to see, now that the breed committees are up and running with USDF and USAEq, regions established and a "GMO" type structure available for breeding groups to give some organization and to help them operate locally but have a national tie and presence.

Sporthorse South

Jan. 28, 2003, 09:33 AM

Someone asked about costs for training in Germany vs the U.S. -

Trainers in our area seem to charge $650 - $1200 per month to start young horses (initial backing, basic w-t-c, etc.). Many of these are "backyard trainers" (no offense to anyone), who have a small place they either own or lease, and they just happen to have a knack for working with young horses and are unafraid to climb on a 3-year old and get it going.

By contrast, many places in Germany charge around about half that for boarding and training. For instance, one of Germany's biggest and best known training/sales/stallion operations charges around 450 Euros for boarding and training. The young horse specialist I mentioned earlier (one of Germany's best - he has won the Bundeschampionat numerous times) charges about 600 Euros for boarding and training. Now granted, these places aren't fancy by any means - the horses don't get much turn-out (if at all), but other than that, the care is pretty darn good. The horses get very consistent and correct work from people who know what they are doing, they get fed correctly for the work they are doing, and they get wormed, vax'd and trimmed/shod on a regular basis, plus they learn to work in a small indoor arena with lots of other horses, how to cross-tie in busy aisles with horses being led back and forth past them, (and at the bigger operations) how to go on a treadmill machine and how to go on a hot-walker, etc.

Basically, as others have pointed out, starting young horses and bringing them along is a pretty big business in Germany, which is why it is often easier to find good quality, already-started youngsters there for a reasonable price than here in North America.

square halt

Jan. 28, 2003, 01:56 PM

Just an example of American breeder costs. Now, I do not back my own - or at least not currently, and have this block about just sending them anywhere, so they go to a German Bereiter who has the best seat, hands and patience for the babies that I have seen. I will not include veterinary fees for vacc., injury, etc. as that varies.

$1700 stud fee
$500 boarding fee for insemination per month
$1000 vet fees for palping, inseminating, etc.
$1800 for six weeks backing training at 2.5 years
$3600 training fees for three months training at three
$6,000 training fees for five months training at four
Currently in training and for sale at five

Total: $14,6000
Does not include feed, bedding, reg. vet calls, farrier, injury
Now, can I logically sell this horse for $10,000?
I will not put the same money out for a baby that doesn't show promise, but they will be started correctly, and given the chance to show what they can or want to do. They are bred with quality mares and stallions. They run around on oodles of acreage and hills to develop strength and agility.
I don't think I will become rich in the breeding industry this way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CentrelineFarm

Jan. 28, 2003, 02:05 PM

Jeanette posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So can any of you breeders speculate on a break-even point/ monthly or total cost at which it would be worth it to you to pay me and Hidden Treasure to start your kids?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actualy, I don't think it is the 'starting' per se that throws breeders off. If I were not able to break and train them myself (and I thank God every day that I can!!!) then I would very easily be able to hire a competant trainer to do so for me. There are lots of them out there.

It is the CONTINUING trainining that kills us. A young horse that is going under saddle has to be KEPT under saddle until they go to the next home...however long that may take. It is not like I could send a 3 year old to the trainer for 60 days and then 'ta-da!!!' my troubles are over! I cannot just take it home at that point to show buyers. That young horse has to be progressing or at least ridden several times a week until it is sold. And if I cannot do this, than I have to pay some one else to. I have seen this many, many times.....

The trainer can either
A) Sell my horse for me and get a 10% or so commission. Let's say s/he sells a $20,000 horse for me. That is $2,000 bucks in their pocket. And of course I paid for training and board as well -(perhaps $1500 for two months at the very least). So I am out commission ($2,000) and training for two months ($3500 total). Now that is assuming the horse sells in two months. What if it takes four, five, more?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

or we enter a conflict of interest thing
B) The trainer has had the horse for four months. Now s/he has made more in four months off me than s/he would have if s/he had sold the horse in the first place. And the longer it stays, the more I have paid him/her, and of course the commission will have to be paid in the end as well. Win/Win for them. Meanwhile they have convinced me that shows will increase visability (they do) and marketability (that too) so I have forked over more for shows, etc. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

C) Then, finally I get frustrated. My horse hasn't sold. I have heard from others that the trainer hasn't really put much effort in. Who am I to judge? The trainer assures me that s/he just needs another month. I run out of money and take the horse home (or worse, maybe go to another trainer). Trainer is mad, won't help me sell the horse now no matter what. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It is just a depressing scenario over and over for the breeder. I see it happen constantly. In fact, I did this same thing once myself whenI was overloaded with too many horses to ride.

I understand the trainer needs to make a living. And this is not to criticise trainers at all. But the point is, that from a breeders perspective, unless the horse goes really, really fast, this can be a draining money pit with a huge potential for loss. From the trainer's perspective, the longer the horse stays, the better. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Some people have tried the 'I'll give you 20% if you provide the training for free' route. But that opens another can of worms. Boarding alone will eat you alive if you have more than one. And then you can never take the horse away because then you will owe for training!!! Indentured horses!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Spot

Jan. 28, 2003, 03:24 PM

You know MaggyMay - that is a heck of a good idea!

We have a facility up the road from us that has 3 indoor arenas, in around 400 stalls in the entire facility, and it is a wonderful facility for something like you are describing.

They use it for shows throughout the year, but for the most part, the stalls sit empty and there are about 100+ horses only boarding on a full time basis, so a place like this would be ideal to set up that sort of a training arrangement.

Im sure other regions must have the same types of facilities available to them as well?

"Spot"

Hexel

Jan. 28, 2003, 04:56 PM

Milliethefilly and Maggymay

You hit the nail on the head.
All my babies have been backed and started. It has not been easy though. I do not ride much anymore.
I was a good rider ,able to ride the greenies and OTTB but no longer. My reaction time and cordination are not what they once were. Bones break and I do not walk well for quite awhile after hitting the dirt. This may also happen to some of you in time.
I love horses .So now I choose to breed them. Show them in hand with a handler. If they do not sell as babies then I find someone to back them.

I had someone that came to the farm a good kind but firm western rider. She has a great feel for a horse. She continued with my stallion ,after he had 30 days off the farm. This was 25.00 a ride. I do not begrudge her this. She had to drive to the farm 15 mi. But this came out to 500.00 a mo with me still providing the feed bedding etc.

I came to the conclusion the only way to break even was to sell these babies as quickly as possible.
This is where I hear mixed reports. Some people seem to be able to sell the babies like hotcakes.
Others say the market for babies is poor. That most want something started . Maybe we need a survey to that effect.

Anyway if a breeder has multiple horses they can not back and ride themselves it is an enormous expense. Sometimes I must pick and choose who gets put on the back burner for a while.

We really do need (IMHO) a means of getting these babies started as reasonably as possible.

Hidden Treasure

Jan. 28, 2003, 05:05 PM

I would happily volunteer to be a trainer in my area! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I even have a small empty(for a short time) Barn at my disposal.

Spot

Jan. 28, 2003, 05:18 PM

You know Hexel - I think you are 100% correct.

From all of these posts, it appears that the product itself that is being produced is not the problem - its the cost factor attached to it.

Buyers are not saying that there is nothing to buy in North America - just that the product in Europe offers a better bang for the buck.

It really does appear, in a nutshell, that if a system could be put in place to get these youngsters started in an economical fashion, and preferably in a geographical area that could involve as many breeders as possible to give the buyers the best selection available, THAT is the winning combination and the ticket to success.

And that would be the incentive for North Americans to BUY the North American product instead of hopping on a plane and heading over to Europe.

For goodness sakes - I am sure each and every one of us has figured out the solution to larger problems than this in our lifetimes. The European breeders arent any more intelligent than we are (sorry Europeans members! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) they just simply have us beat hands down in the systems they have in place.

This discussion has come such a long way since its beginning several months ago - there have been some fabulous and valid points raised on both sides of the fence.

I think with the collective ideas floating around, some wonderful new systems may very well be put into place across the country to benefit all breeders.

"Spot"

Rocky XVI

Jan. 28, 2003, 09:14 PM

I am one of those poor souls who has joined the breeding game. I can't call our operation a business yet - it is much more of an experiment at this point. The experiment is not whom to breed to what, but rather what to do with what we get!
Having had nothing but older horses up to this point, we started years ago with a PMU weanling, just to make sure we could look after something that young and have it survive. Wouldn't you know, the darn horse made itself at home and thrived. Months later I was in absolute shock to look out the window and see my then teenage daughter lead this filly over to the fence, then use the fence as a mounting block from which to swing onto the 1-1/2 year-old's back. When sent to bring the horses in, she would tie lead shank to halter and ride her in bareback to save having to walk. Then again, this is the same daughter whose first horse was a hot chestnut ottb who she rode for the first time on her 11th birthday. I never thought that this might not be a wise choice for a young rider still taking group lessons, but if she learned anything that year, it was how to sit an unpredictable horse (and it wasn't in forward seat!).
Over the past 2-3 years (I've lost track a little) our little pmu has grown, and is now doing wtc and small cross-rails. In the meantime, my daughter got serious about jumping, and we (hubby and I) got interested in dutch warmbloods. My daughter now competes on an 8-year-old mare - they are both still learning the finer aspects of the sport. Hubby and I just bought another project: a 2-year-old filly. Both are future breeding prospects - the older mare when she is retired from the ring, and the younger filly when she reaches her third year, before beginning her final training as a riding horse.
The thing that I have learned from our "experiment" is how long this whole process takes, to go from weanling to riding horse. Preparing a riding horse is not just 30 or 60 days with a pro to get them going. It also means 4-5 years of handling, leading, grooming and instilling manners, along with the more formal aspects of groundwork and backing. Sometimes I think the buyers have it right - just fly to Europe and get one ready-made! It would be so much easier - but perhaps not as much fun.

DARKHORSE

Jan. 28, 2003, 09:56 PM

I have been to Europe but not to buy a horse/s.
I have ridden in Germany, granted many years ago. My question/comment is don't European sellers talk up the bloodline? They did when I was there.

MsHunter

Jan. 29, 2003, 04:14 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Putting Flame Suit on again:

IMHO showing in hand for HB or SH or Dress-age
is as expensive if not MORE so that $25-40/pro ride.

If it TRULY is to be a business and we are TRULY to make money at it, then we have to look at the whole program (at least that is what my accountant tells me)!

We board, train, teach, sell, show, sell, clip, bodyclip, ship, and try to be involved in every aspect of the business we can in the Hunter/Jumper Industry. The accountant each year looks at $$ IN and $$ out. Inventory, horses remaining, new ones bought, ones sold.
SO, should you sell one for $12000 at a profit and sell one for $6000 at a loss the average sale was X and the dollars spent on the 2 was Y. What was the return?

Digressing for a moment. We understand the high cost of getting babies started, but tell me why will people willingly board and train with you for say $1200 a month with the board, lessons, coaching at shows, shipping, entries etc but NOT pay $800 a month training board to start a youngster? We do the 90 day program
if people are interested, that is from wearing tack, lunging (they have to learn, although we are not LTD advocates), long lining, time spent mounting/dismounting, w/t first 60 days, WHOA is learned fairly early on, and then progressing to 90 days w/t/c. We like this to happen at the end of a 2 year old year. (Jul/Aug/Sept) (they are quieter when it is warmer outside http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Then they can GO HOME and the owners can at least say our 2 yr olds are started u/s etc.

We suggest they rest for the fall/winter and start again spring as 3 year olds w/t/c/ 60 days, progressing to some x/s.

My point is for 6 months total you can have a horse you can put into your own program in your barn or trainers barn with 6 month of training
for between $4800 and $7200 is my guess depending on geographics.

The question is this: Do you sell your horse
for more $$ after training/board or upkeep cost or when they are foals?

I have found I have to sell them as foals, or wait until they are 3 to be in the profit margin.

Take out all the showing and invest it into
training the numbers will be less, or take that fancy prospect and DO IT ALL and have faith.

At every corner they can bring more $$. Wait until they are doing a baby green course at a nice show with changes, if they ARE the hack and the jump prize you will get your $$ back.

As an aside, do you really think the WINNERS of the NATIONAL HB awards can get back what the owners spent when they are sold down the road?

Some of the showing has to be for the purpose of competition only and not as in investment for all of us. I think this is where we all
leave our business sense at home. My best sales have been horses who have stayed at home barely went to the ring, no one knows them and they get started and jumping and sold. Keeps my breeding program going!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Spot

Jan. 29, 2003, 04:52 AM

MsHunter - I think if the whole Hunter Breeding business IS to become a real business, then there has to be some return on investment, otherwise it is a hobby and not a business.

Whether it is a stepping stone to the hunter ring, a valid venue for showcasing the offspring of certain stallions - there must be a valid reason for spending the money to get the babies into the ring.

The AQHA, APHA and I am sure numerous other breeds offer cash incentives by way of different futurities for weanlings, yearlings and 2 year olds. It makes great financial sense to BUY Paints and Quarter Horses as weanlings because you cna make money showing them. You dont just get some pretty ribbons and people oohing and aahing over your babies - you get cold hard cash. Several thousand dollars a year in some cases. So - that is why there always has been and always will be a strong market in those breed registries for selling your babies in. For premium dollars.

I think if the new owners of these babies could see that by starting their babies properly and having the right training done on them, they could then reap financial gain at the end, it would be a much easier sell.

Why do you think the Europeans come to North America to buy all of their AQHA and APHA stock??? Simply because no one over in Europe is doing it better or in as many numbers, as we are.

nice to have the tables reversed for a change, isnt it?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Spot"

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 29, 2003, 07:19 AM

I have to 100% agree with Milliethefilly. It is the on going riding/training that will cook the price.

I have an EXCELLENT trainer that loves to back the babies (although generally she has only done mine, and they are quiet, and fairly well handled). She charges $750.00/month training board. Usually as 3 year olds, they come back after 2 months w/t/c, trotting over small x's, and maybe even a trail ride or 2. She is very talented. She just tacks and lunges for 3 or 4 days, and gets on. She only lunges for 10 to 15 minutes a day, and once she gets on, usually that drops to about 5. Then she rides working up to about 15 to 20 minutes a day during the first 2 weeks. By the 2nd or 3rd day she is on them, they usually step into the canter for a few strides. She begins also right away, with "steering exercizes" of stepping over a pole here and there - walk and trot. She works them all with a very soft snaffle and long contact. Some will seek the bit almost from the beginning, and work in a long Training Level frame. She does NOT ask them to stay there, but if they are bred to just do it, seem to be very comfortable there. They come home with a great base, but we have no one to maintain them. We have usually sold them as soon as she has them going.

The youngsters never fight or buck. It is always very soft. Maybe it is her calm, confident, relaxed attutude. I have to laugh when I have gone over there, and I ask if she wants me to hold them for mounting. She climbs on from a 5 gallon bucket, and says, "No, they should be fine"... and they are.

I sent her my unbroken 4 year old, had been bred live cover quite a few times, stallion this year for 2 weeks, while her stallion was away, and left for Devon. I told her not to kill herself, and I would be back to help in a week. He had never had a saddle on or lunged. She called me at the show the next day, and said, "Well, I got on him! We walked down one side of the ring, and I got off. He didn't care." The next day she was trotting. By the end of the week, he was cantering, and had stepped over a small x. I will mention that while she is doing all of this, her ring fence adjoins a field with a few very curious mares. Unfortunately, I had to bring him home after 2 weeks. My farm is NOT set up for stallions. To ride, you have to lead them across 150 yards of field with about 20 mares and geldings turned out, to get to the ring. They will all swarm around, and the geldings are looking to challenge the stallion for "their mare". He has not been ridden since. Hopefully her boy will go back to his eventing career this spring, and mine can go back to work.

Although she loves to do this, she can't make a living on the one or 2 a year I send her. She has had to fill most of her stalls with regular boarders, and squeezes one of mine in for short periods.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Hexel

Jan. 29, 2003, 08:27 AM

MS Hunter you are in a good postion ,you have a set up that works for you,it sounds like an ideal one. I do not think any of us begrudge the trainer taking on young horses and starting them at 500.00 to750.00 a mo. The issue is after 4 to 6 mo at 750.00 mo plus the cost of breeding them and keeping them for 2 plus yr.'s. The price becomes comparable if not more then the imports. We want to be competitive with Europe and it seems to me one way to do that is find a system to start our young horses and keep them going at a lower cost.

I've often thought if I could find the right talented rider to partner with. I would be willing to give them a percentage of a given horse in exchange for them training that horse. Not sure if anyone would be willing to risk that.

Pony1

Jan. 29, 2003, 10:07 AM

WOW - this just gets better and better !!

I think this discussion needs to get some kind of BB award for the most number of posts over the longest period of time with out anyone getting "excited" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif exluding baby Aiden of course

I think we brainstormed the problem down to "how do breeders, who can't ride their own, put the training on their product at a reasonable price?" I am thinking this is a great business opportunity for someone - done regionally - at a nice safe, facility - with affordable prices.

Perhaps one way to lower some of the monthly costs would be to contract with the training facility to let them act as the agent for a sale/auction (held maybe 2 times yearly) and extra income from the consignment fees etc could go to the management of the training facility - auctions make good money for people like Professional Auction Services, why not have it help subsidize the training costs?

Anyway - a regional facility - supported by the regional breeders sounds like it may be the way to go.

I kind of like the idea of an auction - you at least know what the fees are - the commission situation is really getting out of hand. I had a pony for sale, and before I put it in the auction I had a supposed friend call me and say, I was in the tack store and over heard someone asking about young ponies for sale - I gave them your name and number, if they buy the pony you don't have to give me 15 percent 10 percent commission will be ok - I know you need to clear as much money as possible. The person did call, and practically the first words out of their mouth was that they expected a 10 percent finders fee and the kids trainer wanted 15 percent comission. Now lets count that all up 10% + 10% + 15% equals 35% on a $3,000 pony yearling = $1,050 to strangers who invest minutes and hours and $1,950 to me who has invested 2 years plus all the associated cost to raise him - I am sorry but I know this happens on the high dollar horses as well. I told them they better put their piece on top of the $3K cause I would not take it off my end. They did not buy the pony - I sent him to the select breeders sale and got very very close to my asking price.

So a popular auction of youngster that had a reputation of young horses coming out of a program that had a good reputation would also be marketing the horses at more realistic prices with out all the commissions added on top

Great ideas people!!! we might just be on to something. Biggest problem I can see is getting 2 horse people to agree on the details much less an entire region http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif but then I guess miracles do happen cause we are all playing very nicely in this discussion and coming up with lots of good information.

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Standing the imported Caspian pony stallion Cheleken Zealandia aka "BAXTER"
www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

mbp

Jan. 29, 2003, 10:11 AM

I think the suggestion about trying to have a breeders band together to use a trainer(s) to start youngsters is a good idea - there are some good facilities (and some of those have $ issues where they might like to have something like that going on - like the expo center in MO?), but again, the approach of mutliple registries I think fractionalizes the breeders. Breeders have to have a regional mechanism to get together to start making these ideas work, IMO.

alexandra

Jan. 29, 2003, 11:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pony1:
... I am thinking this is a great business opportunity for someone - done regionally - at a nice safe, facility - with affordable prices.

Perhaps one way to lower some of the monthly costs would be to contract with the training facility to let them act as the agent for a sale/auction (held maybe 2 times yearly) and extra income from the consignment fees etc could go to the management of the training facility - auctions make good money for people like Professional Auction Services, why not have it help subsidize the training costs?

Anyway - a regional facility - supported by the regional breeders sounds like it may be the way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pony the idea is not new: This is exactly how the Hannoverian auction in Verden came to life. There is a huge facility. Maintenance paid by the fees of the members of the Verband. Actually once when it was built every member of the Verband had to pay a share. The Oldenburg verband in Germany just had this happen a few years ago to built their new facility.

At the Verband a number of riders, grooms and trainers work all over the year. They take in riding horses for breeders to break them in or train more. I do not have numbers for the training/boarding fee, but it is not overpriced. The horses trained there either go into the auctions or back to their breeders.
It is a going/working business and the Verband does not need to put additional money into it as far as I know.

Boy, what am I doing. Telling the Americans how to live without the european imports ;-) ;-)

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

Allyn M

Jan. 29, 2003, 12:11 PM

This is an exciting idea !!!! There is a North American Federation Of the Sport Horse Registries that has meetings and sponcers the 100 day test and hires the riders for that. Why couldn't they sponcer a 100 day training session and auction prep for sport horses and each interested barn could send one or two horses. They could interview riders for this and hold it it in a large facility ( in our area Lake St. Louis or the new one in Ohio ) . It might be hard at first to get a good price for your horses but I think that it could take off and be an excellant training and marketing outlet. I would be really excited about supporting something like that because at the end of the road there would be a sale.Lets talk about what we would encounter in order to get this off the ground.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Spot

Jan. 29, 2003, 03:07 PM

well - I know here in Ontario we have Black's Equestrian Centre, the CNE facility and probably Hendervale that have several hundred empty stalls available at any given time, so it would be easy to set something like this up in our area, for the SW Ontario group. Since we are 60 minutes away from Buffalo and about 3 hours from Detroit, it may also work to pull horses in from those areas as well.

I am honestly inundated with people contacting me to ask if I can ride and sell their horses for them and I simply dont have the time or the space to do so.
If there was a regional centre where these people could be referred to, where the costs were reasonable and the exposure and marketing were excellent, I truly believe that this COULD take off and be wildly successful!

I know on a lesser scale, we have our local auctions and everyone in the area knows exactly when they are held. If this was done properly and consistently, everyone would get to know that every spring and fall, an auction of young horses was going to be held at this facility.

I also do agree Pony1 - this exchange of ideas has been the very best that I have encountered in a long long time
(Arent you all glad that I started this thread ?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

"Spot"

Hexel

Jan. 29, 2003, 05:23 PM

Wow
I really like the idea of regional training facilities with a follow up auction.

Sounds like there might be a need for several of these training facilities. In Canada as well as the USA. North America is such a big continent.
This might solve some of the travel issues to look at many horses and prospects in one place at one time. I seem to hear over and over I can see so many horses in a few days with less travel in Europe.

Beezer

Jan. 29, 2003, 08:03 PM

This has been a wonderful, thought-provoking thread but I just have to add a note about pricing youngsters/horses of any age:

Most of you have probably come to this harsh realization anyway, but sometimes, no matter how much $$ you have into it, a $5,000 horse is a $5,000 horse. Sorry, but as a breeder/seller/buyer, that's a fact of life I learned long ago.

I'm honestly not trying to flame anyone here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I'm always surprised by breeders or people who buy greenies as "investments" who fail to realize that, unfortunately as often as not, the money you put in is just not going to come out the other end.

That doesn't mean that we, as breeders, shouldn't strive to produce wonderful horses or to make a profit. But I think we **do** have to take off the rose-colored glasses and realize that just because we have, say, $7,500 into a horse, that does not automatically make it a $7,500 horse.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. Sometimes that $7,500 translates into a youngster truly worth many times that; sometimes, unfortunately, that investment translates into something far less. And keeping the horse longer and investing more in it isn't going to change that reality.

** Dear Cupid: All I really want for Valentine's Day is flying LEAD CHANGES!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif **

Laurie@CBF

Jan. 29, 2003, 08:07 PM

There was supposed to be an ancillary "training opportunity" for young horses at the 100 day test this year in Ohio (aside from the stallions). It came together at the last minute - so I don't know if it actually occurred. I am pretty sure that they will offer this at each testing. My criticism of it was that they should combine it with an auction format at the end (maybe right before or after the last three days of the stallion testing - to make it a big event) - which I don't think they plan on doing.

The Midatlantic Hannoverian Breeders group has a sales fest every fall in combination with a mare show. I don't know how successful it is.

If people want to become involved in the auctions they need to be prepared to take some low prices the first year or two to get the program "off its feet". If you look at Jeff Marshes "Eurosport Auctions" - the ones that have become an annual event do the best for good consistent prices for young stock. Whenever anyone decides to hold a new one (ie KY last year) - it can be a bloodbath - as people just are not in the "habit" of going to that auction in that area.

Unfortunately - even though we have the quality horses - people are reluctanct to try "our domestic product". Just like in the car industry where people want to drive the beamers and mercedes. To dive into that market - Lexus sold the same quality car for a lot less to get people to drive their cars. Now Lexus is a name brand themselves (and their prices have gone up).

I don't know if our "regional breeders" as a collective group can swallow their pride (and take a loss) to "prime the pump" for a few years.

Another option is to do a massive marketing/party event down at Wellington Florida during the show season. The Jeff Marsh auction in 2002 did pretty well - although the reserves were high on the horses and a good amount weren't sold.

As the Equitana events seem to be really taking off - someone who is smart would coordinate a few special sporthorse events (more than what they currently have) at one - and then hold an auction in that area - in conjunction with it.

Kareen

Jan. 30, 2003, 12:20 AM

From my Germany-sited point of view I think a lot of NA breeders don't know that many many European breeders (I'd say the vast majority) does not make any profit with their breeding at all. Lots of them don't even break even. That's I guess part of the magic of successful horsebreeding. You just mustn't expect it to pay off for everybody involved...
It's true a lot of costs here in Europe are lower than they are for you guys. But then we also cope with the same amount of competition you guys in NA do in the let's say QH or TB department. Does that make any sense?
Most breeders I know consider their breeding a spare time activity and family tradition is an important factor to them. Sure enough everybody would love to break even financially and I don't say no one is making any profit. Also many don't even seem to realize they are losing money on the horses. They either don't care or aren't upfront to themselves about what money goes out and what comes in.

One more thing: While I do agree with the previous posters who said we do have more recources here in terms of english training and riding I have to say many breeders here are facing exactly the same problems you guys do. For instance lots of farmers who previously rode themselves and thus didn't have to really count in boarding / training costs get old and many farmers don't have kids who are willing to overtake the farm b/c you just can't make a living here on farming any longer.

Spot

Jan. 30, 2003, 03:01 AM

Kareen - that is very very interesting! I htink many times we see our own problems, and dont realize that breeders all over the world face exactly the same problems and issues that we do.

I also know what you mean about not really knowing about costs. I have some friends who just "turn their babies out with the cows" to grow up and dont have any idea what their actual costs are into each baby, or forget.
Then - if they get $3500.00 for them, they view it as *making* $3500.00 which totally is not the case!

Beezer - truer words were never spoken ...
I remember when I used to do a lot of buying and selling and people would call me up and say they had paid $5000.00 for their horse, have had it for 6 months, have $9000.00 into it now, and they would like to sell it for $10,000.00 or thereabouts.
It was often really eye opening for them to finally grasp the concept that their horse wasnt WORTH the $5000.00 they initially paid for it, so let alone it wasnt worth $10,000.00 - they would be hard pressed to get $3500.00 back out of it.

"Spot"

Hexel

Jan. 30, 2003, 04:56 AM

The reality of breeding for me is I do not make money very often. It is something many do for the love of the horse.

The money in horses seemsto be in training and lessons sales commisions and then it is hard to make a big profit.

Yes some are barn blind. But not usualy those that have done this for a few years. You learn.
I've found to break even will mean ,hoping you get an exceptional horse to offset those that are average or below. Yes often times horses bring less at auctions,it is the sellers choice of what reserve they might put on a horse. Or an opportunity to sell a few to make room for the next crop. Some sell for more then expected some for less.

There will always be those that feel foreign is better.

Allyn M

Jan. 30, 2003, 06:25 AM

Now that we are talking about money I feel the need to bring up an important point that we are faced with in the USA.( I would love to know how this is treated in European countries )That is that if you don't make money over a limited period of time you will be declared a hobby and that will effectively put you out of business no matter how much you want to make it a viable business. The government does not think of horses as agriculture no matter how big a business it is in this country . They think of it as a rich mans hobby. It doesn't matter how much money you have or how hard you try to avoid the label , if you are associated with English riding horses of any kind you are classified as rich and therefore this is your hobby.Western riding horses do not have this label. I expect that it come from the tradition of Foxhunting for royalty or polo or Racing "the sport of Kings". I think that the racing industry in Kentucky tried to get some relief for their small farmers from the government after their breeding disaster. Don't know if anyone listened to them or not. Our PR for any kind of English riding is terrible and as I said before entertainers don't want anyone to know that they are involved.
so if we are to make any headway with making this a viable industry then we all have to work together and keep educating ourselves.
Also I want to add that when I say auction that means no reserves. I have not been to any auctions in Europe where there are horses pulled for a reserve not met.I know that means some real bargains to begin with but maybe not because if two people really want a good horse then it may mean more.This goes along with what Beezer said. Sometimes you have to face the fact that that is what that horse is going to sell for and for breeders you can't store them like a good antique waiting for the price to rise .... you have to feed them and shoe them and muck their stall and medicate and train and ride ............ etc.etc.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

evergreenfarms

Jan. 30, 2003, 06:44 AM

I think that this will always be a problem area for breeders all over. I like the idea of a training session with a sale at the end. It would be interesting. But until then, what you have to do as a breeder is look at the costs of where the animal is sent. If it costs more to keep the horse, it costs more to train the horse. You have to look at areas where the actual upkeep costs etc are less. You can save money on monthly bills and when the said baby is ready for the show ring, there are schooling shows all over. With the money saved from monthly bills, you then can send the said baby to one or two 'A' shows. Even counting in the travel. We are lucky here in Manitoba, it is the cheapest place in North America to raise horses, with the best feed and pastures. I am also lucky, as I have a couple of breeder clients that I start horses for and take them to their first shows. I love to see how each baby is different and watch them mature. It is hard though when they are sold. But, I have a wonderful time. This has been a very interesting topic. I hope that something really good comes from it

MsHunter

Jan. 30, 2003, 07:04 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Allyn M, your right, and my corporation has 2 more years to "prove" we can make money. We surely depreciate inventory and reinvest $$ into the business, but I actually can show that I have sustained a profit, but it did take some learning about $$ to charge. My rates were too low shipping horses, they were too low teaching lessons, etc etc. The board as I was told SHOULD and CAN be a break even, but your professional services must have value.

Hexel, please DO NOT be fooled about European prices. We are talking to a limited audience on the BB. I can ASSURE you that the $$ aren't much less buying HUNTERS in Europe. My understanding from the TOP TRAINERS I have spoken with is the horse is show ring ready at
4 years old. WOn't blink right or left, will march around and jump the jumps. The prices I have been told (A circuit calibred) over and over again have been $35,000-$55,000 PLUS import.

3'6" Jumpers are much less, but, so are they here, and the dollars go up again for the 4 ft plus horses.

Once again, the most bang for the buck is retired race horses can you get them sound enough. Sad but true
at least in my neck of the woods.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Kareen

Feb. 2, 2003, 04:43 AM

@AllynM: Horse people in Germany do have precisely the same problem with their operation being considered their 'private hobby'. The situation here however is different b/c horse breeding (WB's at least) have always been considered a genuine branch of farming so as long as you have a farm going at the same time you will be fine as long as you make a little profit every once in a while.
We also have a § called 13a here that concerns small farms (working up to 20 ha of land). Those farms are allowed to run their farm without keeping books. They pay a flat tax made up by the amount of land they work. However if they volunteer to do book-keeping they are allowed to write off losses as well so for people who are investing a lot it makes sense to do the extra work of book-keeping.
Those who run farms with 20+ ha of land have to include their horsey money in their income tax. Worst case scenario of being considered 'hobby horse owner' is tried very frequent by the tax department on horse breeders but most find ways to avoid it by selling a good horse 'in time'.

Kareen

Feb. 2, 2003, 04:59 AM

@MsHunter: Not sure where in Europe you bought your horses but in Germany people still don't have the remotest idea of what a hunter is for most of it.
Also I sold a top jumping performance tested 4 yo mare easily jumping 5' lose with two 8's on jumping in her MPT, SPA who is now showing very successfully coaching with one of Canada's leading jumper trainers and she left Germany for no more than 23,000 DM a few years ago. Owner is still happy with her.
I see several problems: First of all most people don't realize how many agents there are between them and the horse. You wouldn't believe how many people run around here in Germany and tell owners: 'You know I have a very good contacts in N.A., it's not the buyer but I know how to get to them and there is this other person if he tells them to buy they will so how much do you want for this horse'. Now show me the owner who would NOT ad about 20% to what he initally had in mind if he knows there is enough flexibility and $$ on the buyers side to pay for 2+ agents aside of the real purchase price.
Secondly I often find N.A. horse shoppers not to be clear about what they are looking for. Because no one ever said horses were for free in Europe and yet it seems to take people by surprise to see what the real top horses sell for within Europe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It is possible to buy young green potential for very little, tons of people do it and I would assume there is a reason http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thinking WB's here not OTT TB's which are cheap all over the world I guess because they basically need to be restarted and some might not recover to an extend where they can really do the job for English riding.
It is also possible to buy good quality with some training for much less than you would pay in N.A. just a matter of a)how much time you have and b)where you shop.
You will most definitely never get to buy world class quality for anything but world class prices because people here generally know a good horse (some know a good horse that even isn't a good horse as long as it is their own to make it more complicated http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
Speaking of Hunters you can't buy them here because they don't exist. We don't breed let alone train for this discipline here so all you can get is HUNTER-POTENTIAL that is available for reasonable prices if you look around and know where to begin. You just can't expect them to be ready for the ring as a hunter ring is non-existant in Europe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Boss Hoss

Feb. 2, 2003, 06:50 PM

Responding to the posts on page 10 about starting the youngsters...

I really wish MORE folks would send their youngsters away for the 2-6 months of professional training they need. We've had to "fix" several horses that were do it themslvers at home or started really badly. When they are started right they are so easy and enjoyable. There is a critical mass of "training' that should be done with them, but a horse unapparoached about backing is better than one tried at home and then sent away for professional training after the wreck.

I think NA breeders make thier money on offspring at age 1 and 4 mostly..they are either cute factor at age 1 or they are well started at 3-4 years old. I wouldn't want to buy a 2 year old when they are still changing a lot..I'd wait a year then see them under tack.

I think the NA breeders should get behind the American Warmbloods (AWR/AWS) and take the breed to new heights. Stop worrying about European studbooks and develop our own.

However, I won't send any stallion to a 100 day test..and I know several other stallion owners who won't either. I don't think Europe has cornered this market, so we don't have to replicate everything they do. The performance of the offspring are what make the stallion a breeding candidate. Passing a 100 day test is only a small yet risky for horse owner part of the big puzzle. I ask where many of the 100 day wonders are now.

Also, what about an American Warmblood Breeders Auction?

Darlyn..I can relate. Some of my event lessons consist of me having to ride my stallion through the pasture at my trainers farm with horses coming up to him. They can become used to it.

AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk
2002 AWS Gold Medal Novice Award
Cool Breeze Farm, LLC

Hexel

Feb. 3, 2003, 05:57 AM

Boss Hoss
I have felt for a long time that it is the get ,that are the biggest proof for a stallion.

Ideal is a proven performer,correct,quiet,athletic for their discipline,pretty. But if none of this comes through in the foals ,welllllllll.

I look for a stallion proven or not (performance/ testing wise) that is putting babies in the ground of the type I'm breeding for . I want to see babies of a consistent type. Gives me a better chance of getting a type. The end goal is the foal so I look to them when choosing a stallion.

Could not agree with you more about do not start them at all if you can not do it well. We start them here,I have someone very capable that comes to the farm. But we did have one that we both could see was a little much. We quit right away and sent this one out. Unfortunately some do not realize it is easier to start fresh then undo the tangled web.

It is a refreshing idea to be innovative and start our own system.

Fairview Horse Center

Feb. 3, 2003, 06:24 AM

Not only can they be ruined when started, but many riders, even experienced ones don't understand how to ride a green horse. I have even seen Grand Prix riders that don't know how to balance a young horse. Young horses take their balance very seriously, and will get quite upset if forced to go in a unbalanced way - usually riders make them overbent in the neck and falling out thru the shoulder. Young horses are soooo easy if you just help them.

Mark - YOU know what my set up is like http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif We take Vada across all the time, but I really don't want to be the one to take the youngster, and especially try to ride there after only 7 or 8 rides. It is really hard when the whole herd of 20+ get galloping back to the barn - leaving the youngster out there. I am hoping to get him going again here once we bring them in on summer schedule so by next fall, riding will be routine there.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

OhioColleen

Feb. 3, 2003, 07:53 AM

MBR says: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>BTW, the Eurpopean girls don't shave under their arms. I don't want to do everything like the Europeans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!! Putting that comment aside, I agree with everything that was said regarding TB mares. TB's, as a whole, are the most accomplished athletic equine going!

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. --Albert Einstein.
~Colleen

ponnies

Feb. 5, 2003, 04:19 PM

crystalacresponies Go check out that website- The FOXEN thing has gotten way out of hand. Why cant they breed something of their own thats worthy of their own name and leave ours alone !!! I HOPE THEY ARE LISTENING, this is beyond RUDE,its unprofessional. Using another breeders name due to their success and effort of is plain wrong, and it should be extremly frowned apon by all of our fellow breeders.

Perfecting Welsh /Crossbred's of Color (Crystal Acres Ponies) "MajorFox "Foxen" "All Dressed Up", "Tribute in Light"

Spot

Feb. 5, 2003, 05:05 PM

I;m confused Ponnies ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

What web site?

"Spot"

MsHunter

Feb. 5, 2003, 08:58 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Hey PONNIES see you saturday!

Listen, I have you beat. Cosmopolitan was sold to a BNT after the big Chronicle ad stating the OWNERS as the breeders instead of me. The IHF HAD incorrectly listed the breeder (just got that fixed) and now it is hard to change the image of who bred the horse. Focus on what you do best and forget the rest. The people that really matter always have their eyes and ears open to reality and know.. The rest of the world stays in a perpetuous state of jealousy and denial..

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

ponnies

Feb. 6, 2003, 04:13 PM

MSHUNTER ok YOUR RIGHT, Just needed to vent that one. Hope we dont get too much snow. Look foward too seeing ya !!!

Perfecting Welsh /Crossbred's of Color (Crystal Acres Ponies) "MajorFox "Foxen" "All Dressed Up", "Tribute in Light"

sylvan farm

Feb. 7, 2003, 07:15 PM

Hi everyone,

This has been an amazing thread and I have given some of these ideas real thought. I am currently discussing with our staff the idea of attempting this 'regional' training center idea. We have been breeding Oldenburgs and Hanoverians for about 25 years and have struggled with the 'starting youngsters' problem. I am very particular that a young horse be started carefully, learns to enjoy working and is ready for an amateur or professional rider when through. Now we have a facility where we can offer this type of service.

Here's what we are thinking: offering board and training to start youngsters at a reduced rate, if the owner agrees (a contract) to enter the horse into an annual (or semi-annual) private sale arranged and promoted by the training center. The owner would have to pay a set promotional fee (to help offset the cost of regional and national advertising - again kept as low as possible) and pay a commission if the horse sells. Having shown horses on the East and West coasts, we would contact trainers to let them know our plans and provide a b/w catalogue of horses available.

More details: horses must be of riding age and have a minimum of 3 months of training prior to a sale. We also have some ideas about the quality of horses that would be entered for the sale. We also thought of allowing someone to arrange training for their own horse, with the horse arriving three weeks prior to a sale. In this case, the owner would have to pay a substantial entry fee to enter the sale.

WE'd be curious about your thoughts on a program like this. As others have pointed out, it probably wouldn't be too successful the first few years but it's a start.

We're located in WA state and could easily service British Columbia, WA, OR, ID, MT, etc.

Judy @
Sylvan Farm/North Star Farm

alexandra

Feb. 7, 2003, 10:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allyn M:
Now that we are talking about money I feel the need to bring up an important point that we are faced with in the USA.( I would love to know how this is treated in European countries )That is that if you don't make money over a limited period of time you will be declared a hobby and that will effectively put you out of business no matter how much you want to make it a viable business. The government does not think of horses as agriculture no matter how big a business it is in this country . They think of it as a rich mans hobby. It doesn't matter how much money you have or how hard you try to avoid the label , if you are associated with English riding horses of any kind you are classified as rich and therefore this is your hobby.Western riding horses do not have this label. ....

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
http://www.bannockburnfarm.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Kareen already stated (and I in one of my previous posts aswell) lots of breeders over here do not make money on the horses.
But also lots of people do not have the intention "let's go into horses breeding, make a business out of it and make money". Most breeders are farmers with one branch of breeding horses so if they make no profit with the horses, the can sort of mix it with the profit of the other branches. They breed because of family tradition or just fun (as Kareen said).
It is very very hard to be considered as a business by the tax authorities when you would get into breeding without a farm background. It seldom happens. (if not, somebody from over here has to correct me)
Horse breeding without a farm background is considered Hobby. I guess it is different if you own a stallion station or a training facility and breed some mares as a side effect. It is even worse, in my case my tax consultant told me o.k. your horses are considered hobby and even if the tax authorities never would consider it as a business, they might be after me and wanting that I pay taxes on my sales. He told me to keep track of any expanses, "just in case". So if they would approach me to pay taxes on my one or two sales per year I would have something in hands to prove the costs that have to be taken against the saleprice. Which of course being honest will exceed the sale price, but it is hobby...

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

CentrelineFarm

Feb. 8, 2003, 07:13 AM

I think that a lot of breeders would be very interested in this. Isn't that similar to what Glenwood farms used to do? Are they still having auctions?

I know I would be interested in sending my young horses there for the sale. And I know of several breeders in my area who might as well.

It might take a few years to get off the ground, but once it does, it could be very lucrative. Your area could service the West Coast nicely.

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

Allyn M

Feb. 8, 2003, 07:14 AM

Fruther exploring the idea of a regional training center and auction. My thought would be to have 3 or 4 year olds backed only and then sent to the training center for 3 months training and then have an absolute sale auction.This would be very much along the lines of the 100 day test. Is anyone familiar with the costs involved with the hiring of the trainers for that test?
What would you breeders pay per month plus auction fee to participate in this?How many breeders in the midwest would be interested?How many horses would you need for a good auction?What if we could get a top European trainer to do this and if he would be the one to select the horses ? Would anyone feel they could help to get something like this off the ground ? This is the answer to bringing the buyers back to the American market but just how many of you could participate?To do something like this would take lots of coordination.Just for instance if we did it for 3 months at the Lake St. Louis complex ( for the midwest)in the fall and coordinated the auction with the last Mascup show you might have a built -in client base. What does everyone think?

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

Allyn M

Feb. 16, 2003, 12:41 PM

How is it that I ask a few questions and completely kill this thread ??????

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

MsHunter

Feb. 16, 2003, 03:35 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Allyn don't take it personally, maybe in Indiana it is a nice place to be right now LOL!
Here on the East Coast we are battling a severe snow storm with gale winds and moving horses around,and getting supplies for days and on and on.. I think that it is hard to be focussed right now on anything but getting through right now, and many of the BB are east coasters I think!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

inmotion

Feb. 16, 2003, 04:20 PM

Ok, I have not read the entire thread and will only state what I've seen. The WB's being imported and bought by friends and other folks I know....are 4-5 yrs old and can lope around 4 foot courses. The 4-5 yr old WB's that friends and folks have bought that are bred and raised here, cna't even hold a canter around a ring and are unbalanced at everything they try to do. Forget the fact that they are cheaper overseas...they are easy to ride and that's the key. I know horses need to grow and shouldn't be worked until they are old enough..but what is old enough when the european horses are doing things so much younger. Us amatuers are looking for easy to ride. Myself, as a few of you know am a TB person, and my little young x-racers have been sound and very balanced at age 3. It's just so much easier. Please don't get upset, I'm only saying what I've noticed.

Allyn M

Feb. 17, 2003, 05:54 PM

I understand about the snow. We have lots and on top and under the snow is ice. Kind of a snow sandwich.Most of our problems are with water and how to keep a steady supply to the horses as we do not have automatic waterers.
My only thought was that we seemed to have so many good ideas about how to solve the problems facing the breeders that I had hoped some of them might actually come to fruition.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

dray

Feb. 17, 2003, 07:23 PM

Fairview and Tannenwald, I so agree. We have a small breeding operation based on mare lines I feel I can count on. The mare base is critical.

Fairview, particularly I concur with you. My mares are big, definatley NOT modern, but ultra moving machines. I like old type. When you loose that, ther's no getting it back and the movement is lost or at least compromised.

I have a sneaking suspicion that all this "modern type hype" is a marketing ploy instigated by the Europeans and also a line of crap. I don't see many modern horses in top International competition either. Perhaps that isn't the goal of every breeder. And that makes the difference.

IMPORTANT POINT: Is a breeder breeding to enjoy one or two personal mares and enjoy the foals or to fulfill a life's work? There's nothing wrong either way you play it.

Did it tork me when I heard that one verband didn't approve the stallar stallion Diamond because he was too old type? You bet it did. Did it stop me from breeding to him? You bet it didn't. I just won't even grace that org. with those three Diamond foals. If I'm lucky, I'll get to repeat at least one for an '04 foal. This is Oshoga, a Kirov Stud mare in foal to Diamond. Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

Tannenwald Trakehner

Feb. 17, 2003, 11:17 PM

Sort of on a related topic, what do any of you predict the effect of the failing strength of the dollar against the Euro is going to have on the number of horses imported? Is the political climate deterring anyone from going over to Europe to shop, or from importing?

For years (forever?) the buying power of US currency has been a motivator to buy horses overseas. Now that the situation is changing, are the training differences, status, etc of "imported" going to keep more shoppers at home?

As an American breeder, I guess I am looking for a bright side to the current socio-economic conditions ...

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Janeway

Feb. 18, 2003, 08:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dray:

I have a sneaking suspicion that all this "modern type hype" is a marketing ploy instigated by the Europeans and also a line of crap. I don't see many modern horses in top International competition either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What on earth makes you say that? How often do you watch international jumping or dressage? Because having watched it avidly for years, I can say that the horses are most definitely more modern than they were (thoroughbreds excepted of course). Look back at some of the big jumpers from 10-15 years ago, and look at them now, and there is a huge difference.

As for the modern type "hype" as you call it being "crap", well, I guess most of the very successful studbooks out there would disagree with you and call the moderization of their breeds a breeding directive and not "a line of crap". Breeding for the lighter, modern type isn't just being done on a whim, its in relation to what the top riders want - read any interview with a top rider like Ludger Beerbaum or Jan Tops and they will say that they need a quicker, lighter horse now-adays in order to win the jump-offs.

I hardly call that correlation a European marketing ploy. Plus if you read the directives of most of the big studbooks, they specifically refer to creating a "modern type". So its not just some myth instigated to frustrate american breeders as you seem to suggest http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The Europeans really are breeding for a more modern type!

I have attached a pic of one of the successful modern jumpers out there in case you have never seen him before. His name is Nabab de Reve and his is by Quidam de Revel. He is simply amazing to watch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dray

Feb. 18, 2003, 09:53 AM

Canada Janeway, Nababderevell is a gorgeous horse, well suited to the discipline illustrated. I have an Jalisco B mare that I am sure I undervalue in my mind due to her modern type. She is a stellar jumper and is in foal at the time. Her disposition is fabulous. She just isn't MY TYPE. A very, very nice mare and usually the one a lot of people drool over, especially riders who jump. those are the riders who look at my dressage mare and go.."oh..ah, um...it takes all kinds" (translates to...what is that thing? You actually enjoy riding that?)Please tell me more about the jumping mare."

However, as a breeder, I realize that my type isn't everyone's type, so I do have a "my type" program and a "modern type" program. A "my type horse" has big bone and legs of iron and a butt like a pink lady apple and can carry the front end around in a piroette with ease and grace. Is my type always an easy ride? willing, and trainable, yes, but not always easy in that they ahve so much power and strength. In my modern type program, the horses are agile and can turn quickly and jump high and have more distance stamina. Kind of like a power lifter vs. a runner. Two body types, both athletically gifted, but in different ways. In the "my type program", my mares and foals have all recieved 8s and 9s by the Westfalen ahd Danish and Main book RSPI. As such, I do not believe I am counter to all major registries. Somebody before me (all Europeans) did a great job producing the Warmblood I ahve now with the exception of hte foals, which are born here.

Here is a case in point illustrating one thing that has led me to the statement I made about modern type: Diamond, the Danish stallion, is very much "my type" horse and one Euro registry didn't accept him because he is too much of old type and not what they are looking for now in a modern type horse. So what if he has produced dozens of horses competing in FEI sports in dressage and jumping. Someone with a title said it, so it must be true? Not in my book. It took generations of families to produce him and he ahs withstood the test of time in his own lifetime.

Under some criteria, my best four mares would not hold up to the aforementioned value system.

As for the modern type comments, I could very diffinatley be wrong and my desire to continue to breed the power lifers for dressage could prove to be way off base, but I don't think so.

As usual, when I instigate a debate, there ensues a quesiton/s. Each individual breeder has a business pan with objectives which ansswer some of the following questions (as well as others) Am I breeding all arounders? for amatuers? for professionals? for jumping? for dressage? for international sport? As a breeder I am very clear on my goals for breeding and I need the type of yesteryear to get me there.

Forty years or fity years from now, we will see what effect this "modern" trend has on Warmblood breeding. Duellant and Gotthard were both kind of "also rans" in their early days. The test of time has proven their value and that of their contribution.

My next statement relates to what I hold as a foundation philosophy in my small breeding operation. I believe if someone does not carry the torch of maintaining these old lines and this type, once it is lost. It will take time (if ever) to replace.

So, your point is very well taken and I understand the value of your program. And for the current time, I am able to provide the rebuttal to hopefully continue this lively discussion.

dray

Feb. 18, 2003, 10:00 AM

Here's a photo of her sire. Her dam was also a GP jumper. I'm just to chicken to ride that, so my main focus is dressage horses, hence my obsession with preserving old type.

And yes, there are scores of modern horses cleaning up in dressage as well. Maybe I can be viewed as a "convervationist" of sorts. I'm sure others ahve other words as well!

To freedom of thought and the perpetuation of discussin!

alexandra

Feb. 18, 2003, 12:17 PM

hmh,
Europeans are not breeding a modern type horse for international shows ?
I can not really believe that.
If I have in my mind the great Brentina from the Olympics o.k. that is an old style horse.
But have you seen Piccolino from the German team (Hannoverian by Prince Thatch xx), or Farbenfroh (Westfalen), or Beauvalais (Hannoverian in the Spanish team) or Lone Jörgensen's Kennedy (Denmark), Anky v. Grunsven's Krack C? All these horses were placed in the top ten of the individual results. Look at pictures of them. Is anybody heavy, old style ? You can see some of them on:
http://www.jerez2002weg.com/jerez2002weg/wegonline-php/album/index.php.en.php?disc=7 or http://www.jerez2002weg.com/jerez2002weg/wegonline-php/album/index.php.en.php

Or Ludger Beerbaum's Champion de Luze, such a pretty, modern and light type. or Chandra ridden by Sören von Rönne (German, might not be very known, but competed in Los Angeles in the jumping team), or E.T. ridden by Hugo Simon, Or Helena Lundbeck' Myntha or peter Wylde's Fein Cera, coming from a very good sport horse breeder in Holstein. These are not heavy old style horses !
So we are defintely breeding more and more the modern type and they are more and more to be seen in international competitions (at least at those in Europe, I cannot speak for any other continent).

If it is ones own choice to breed the old style horse because you think there is more power and strength.
That is o.k. But please do not try to convince us that we are breeding for the heavy type horses, we don't anymore. We try to breed modern types with power, strength, elegance and great rideability.

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

danskbreeder

Feb. 18, 2003, 12:35 PM

as a warmblood breeder i made the decision to import my mares from denmark. they are from the top mare book, have passed their mare performance tests and are from well known bloodlines. i breed to elite stallions whose semen i import. my foals are athletic and get alot of attention from day one and i charge good prices for them. i've had no trouble selling foals of this quality.

(flame suit on) i believe there is a difference between a warmblood whose pedigree goes back almost two hundred years and a TB/WB cross.

arnika

Feb. 18, 2003, 01:40 PM

Danskbreeder,

I couldn't resist...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

After reading your and alexandra's post my first thought was that Piccolino was noted as being 1/2 Tb and he's on the German team. (And yes, I do understand the German insistance on a 1/2 Tb on the sire's side as being different from the 1/2 Tb on the dam's side.) But I do have to add that there are an awful lot of Wb/Tb crosses in the European breeding programs so the Americans can't be too far off the mark with our breeding programs.

Now dray, I also have an old style mare who is wonderful as well as her daughter who is a touch more modern in style (being 1/8 Tb). They are both great to ride as is my full Tb mare. We'll have to see how her two hann. crosses do under saddle although I've been getting offers on both of them since they were born and feel one will be a fab jumper and the other seems made for the dressage ring.

I guess my point is you're right, everyone has their own preferences for type. I tend to feel that a good horse is a good horse although I will admit to being a bit obsessive over bloodlines and body types when it comes to breeding my mares. Always hoping for the perfect one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dray

Feb. 18, 2003, 03:46 PM

Arnika/Danskbreeder/Spot/Alexandra...peace among us all...

I am in no way diminsihing the ability of a modern type WB OR even a TB do do upper level work. There are hosts of modern type horses winning top level international competitions.

As I go on and on about my passion for old type mares (remember my goasl is old type mares as a foundation for breeding), my favorite horse in the entire world to ride is my Baron. He's a TB gelding. Photo attached.

Danskbreeder...point well taken about having to go back generations and generations to find TB stock in the pedigree in your program. That's the route I'm trying to take with my foundation breeding stock.

Alexandra...I am by no means trying to convince anyone of anything. Your examples of modern horses in sport is stellar. and there are hosts of others you could have listed. I'm just stating my humble [and probably legendary in my own mind (in your opinion)] opinion regarding my personal breeding program. I just want to preserve old type horses for future avialability for breeding and I enjoy riding them as do a few others. There's a great big market out there and room for modern and old type horses.

Sadly, we don't have an answer yet for how to address the initial question about American breeders missing the mark...pallets of performance (not breeding, although there are some) horses are lined up in Amsterdam and Frankfurt for the next Polar Air on the runway. Why aren't Americans buying horses from Americans? We need to support each other in our breeding efforts regardless how difficult it might be to get along....perhaps this discussion illustrates that case in point.

Just because poeple are having a discussion doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong or trying to force an idea. This is a forum, a platform for discussion, not a bully pulpit. I didn't mean to try to impose my ideas on you at all.

Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

mbp

Feb. 18, 2003, 04:53 PM

Danskbreeder - other than Trakehners, which are a breed and not a registry, wbs have 200year pedigrees? I am curious - I have not seen that many - you mean back to 1800? O

Of those, how many have ox and xx in that pedigree? I think if lenghth of pedigree is at issue, we will all have to defer to the Arabian breeders, won't we? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Allyn - I think something like the auction you described is what a lot of breeders are looking for, but many of them would probably want to even get the backing done. I only breed a small number and want to pick and choose, so auctions are not my high point, but it is something that breeders in general want, and I think that riders would want too. I agree with the poster who indicated that most small wb breeders have even their 4/5yos pretty green or unbroken and that is one thing that draws them to Europe. I think coordinating with a show would be good.

My "reality input" though is that breeders would have to be ready to have some low prices the first years. I think several breeders are already having to face the fact that bloodlines don't sell the horses to riders UNLESS the horse is doing something too - it needs to be wtc etc. If they can't sit on it, they don't really care if it is certified back to Bucephalus.

I do also think the training centers, even without an auction, would be a good idea and would generate sales. Riders would know they could go look there and there will always be young horses in various stages of being started - they will be at least backed and started usually (unless they just got there) and there will be several to look at. So even for private sales, the training centers would be a good idea IMO. But auctions are what you hear lots of breeders interested in.

I think that even in Europe some of the horses have reserves don't they? In that they are "bought back" by the farm? Or do I misunderstand that? I think that it will be harder to get breeders to want to agree to absolute auction until the auctions have a track record. However, limiting the auction to "training center" horses would be a boon for the buyers - bc they would be able to look at going horses who have all pretty much had exposure to some standard baseline training and exposure to being off the farm.

danskbreeder

Feb. 19, 2003, 07:00 AM

mbp

yes despite the constant myth perpetuated that the danes started breeding horses in the 1960's, that was actully when two danish breeding societies merged to formDansk Varmblod, the danes have been breeding warmbloods for a long time. their studbooks go back to the early 19th century. i do believe that some TB and/or arabian needs to be introduced into warmbloods to improve the lightness and athleticism. my point is that in this country there are many horses marketed as warmbloods that are in fact either draft crosses or TB crosses. They are perfectly nice horses but in breeding a first generation cross you do not have the ability to know what you will get. just my own opinion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i also believe that given our TB population breeders who are interested in breeding to warmbloods should look to older style stallions to give that wonderful strong hind end and more muscular build so needed for both dressage and jumping.

NMS

Feb. 19, 2003, 07:27 AM

I want to share my story from a buyers perspective since there are a lot of breeders replying here:

This was three years ago...
I am an 40 plus year old amateur owner returning to horses after not riding for many years. I have $7500. I'm looking for a prospect between 4-6 years of age for eventing through training level (I'm not that brave anymore)and as a dressage prospect. Emphasis on good movement for dressage because that is where I will be spending my "older" years with this horse. Size is not an issue, nor color, nor breeding. I just want a sound, correct horse with good conformation and a decent temperment.

Where to look? I went on-line on dreamhorse, etc. I also looked at the Chronicle ads. What I find for the price is unbroken coming three year olds of mediocre caliber. What I also found were OTTB's in training, which is not what I wanted because I have easy access to many racing TB's and have had many in the past. I go from New Jersey to Canada and Indiana, and all points in between. So I change my price and up it, and narrow the field of horse choices to unbroke coming three year olds. Now I find a better class of horse. But again, where to look now... I go through stallion issues, find stallions with good scores at testings and/or good show records for jumping and dressage. I am limited here to those that advertise their stallions, and I have NO IDEA of where to find their offspring. Now many stallion owners have their offspring or know where they are, but many don't know of the ones for sale, etc. I asked. Really, I didn't care about the breed or the registry. I just wanted a good mover that could jump that was three years old. Finally I came across a site that had their stallion's offspring for sale by the owners, many times with the mares at the farm. Bingo, picked stallion, called breeder, reviewed the mare and bought the horse. This is a great service for the stallion owner to provide to the mare owners, IMHO.

This is what would have been useful to me:

1. A list of breeders with horses for sale that were bred for my discipline(s).
2. A record of success of offspring by North American stallions.
3. A record of success of offspring by North American mares.

I do keep in touch with the breeder of my horse and let her know of his progress so she can promote her mare. But I wonder if the stallion owner knows that the offspring of his stallion won "xxx at show xxx."

Anyhow, I did not consider going to Europe for a horse when I saw so many nice horses here, and frankly the whole shipping/quarantine issue scared me off in many ways.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Nancy

www.canterohio.org (http://www.canterohio.org)

danskbreeder

Feb. 20, 2003, 08:21 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
hi nancy
great story!! i have tried to find a good medium for advertising my horses and due to the size of our country it's seems impossible. there are so many websites, magazines etc. the chronicle is a great place but it is primarily east coast oriented. maybe someone needs to come up with a natinal publication that has regional sections? a place for horse buyers/sellers to be. as someone mentioned it's easier to look at horses in europe than here.

Jac

Feb. 20, 2003, 02:24 PM

danskbreeder
there are quite a lot of TB's in the Danish WB breeding program. years ago the father of jorgen steen jensen argued that the danish needed the tb blood to improve the breed.

danskbreeder

Feb. 24, 2003, 09:09 AM

yes there are TB stallions presented every year for approval at the NAtional Stallion show in Denmark and TB stallions are essential to put into the pedigree every few generations. my point is that in this country the predominance is TB mares being bred to WB stallions and so there's a lot of TB in the bloodlines.
my babies are exactly what one would purchase in Europe. the dams are imported and the semen is imported. the big difference is that my foals have had our prenatal care, farrier trims every six weeks to avoid any leg/foot problems, daily worming and regular vet checks.
all of the imported horses i have bought have had feet that needed work and/or conformation abnormalities that could have been prevented by a qualified farrier trimming in their first year of life. the proof is that not one of their offspring has anything but perfect feet and straight legs.

Fire Hjorner Farm (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

dray

Feb. 24, 2003, 11:37 AM

Further clarification regardng TB horses used in several Euro programs (in my last attempt I drew fire from Germany and will try ot be more detailed in what I present this time as I don't have the UN backing me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif):

For the Prussian type Trakehners, still bred in Russia (Hockey, Biotop, for exapmle) the use of an approved TB sire every six generations seems to be what is seen in many pedigrees. The Prussian breeding program was xx every six genereations on the sire line and an ox in G3 on the sire line only. I'm getting help from friends in Europe translating some texts and will be posting them on our web site. Horses of this "recipe" can be seen at our web site. some of them are the mares: Hlopatunica, , Oshogo (in foal to Diamond), and Poljanka (in foal to Morocco); Dreiskoole (Fidelio xx in G4, diamond embryo transfer foal this year), our stallion OTSCHAG (Pomeranets ox in G3). All xxox on sire line.

The Danish have leveraged several Lord sons and Cordelabryere (Rantzau xx) sons in recent generations. Such horse are now old and their sons are contributing, e.g., Caletto 1-3, Laurenz (since I have daughters of each of these and cam speak form personal experience).

The Dutch, German (some German Trakehner included)and Belgium Warmbloods have leveraged TB through Alme Z, Uriel, (Furioso) lines...and Pik Asxx, Cottage Son xx, Nerew xx, Nektar xx, Pastuer xx, lest we forget Ladykiller xx, Tin rod xx, Fidelio xx (well, Latvia used him also, not the Florestan I Fidelio, but the son of Eternal Bull by Bull Dog, whose Dam line is Man o War...and how in the heck did that horse get to Russia...very dramatic WWII story there)), Adlerschild xx (Hanover), Marfcio xx, Manolette xx (Hanover again...see De Niro, ..okay all Donnerhalls), Marlon xx, Black Sky xx...I know, blah, blah, blah. The Germans and Latvians both have used Lemon xx to good effect.

The lightening is done through the sire line. And this is where everyone got furioso with me last time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif (others, not me)

It will take time for America AS A WHOLE...to put the puzzle together. We have a nice base of quality TB mares that most hobby breeders and some professional breeding farms (myself included) need to use in our programs.

THIS IS WHERE I THINK DANSKBREEDER WAS GOING AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG:
However, to maximize the product of these mares, breeding to the "in vogue" fancy, modern stallions won't get the best F1 product for your performance horses. These mares require a heavier stallion to produce a similar sport type. We have some registries that are open to TB mares. The big deal is wise managemewnt selection practices for F2 generation production if you elect to put an F1 in your breeding program. (For example, I had an extremely nice Dutch mare by Bentley out of a quality TB. I bred her to Ferro and the foal was...well...the woman who bought the mare in foal named the colt WOW. that same mare bred to a more modern type horse would not usually produce a WOW...a good quality, sound riding horse of good mind, but that's not the same as WOW.)

There are some VERY competitive F1s in dressage, jumping and eventing.

So, that's a few thoughts to add to the discussion.

mbp

Feb. 24, 2003, 01:35 PM

You know, Dr. Vollstedt with the German Old Verband had an interview in the recent Old HOrse Breeder's SOciety mag, and seemed to say exactly to the contrary. SHe indicated that it was a big mistake to take a nice TB mare (assuming only the use of nice mares http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) and breed to an old style heavy wb in the hope of getting something "in the middle" and that is actually partly contributing to some of the lack of success in using the TB mares. She indicated that you should look for a stallion with a type more similar to the mare's type, and not breed very dissimilar types in the hopes of getting "in the middle". FWIW

Spot

Feb. 24, 2003, 02:59 PM

mbp - I agree with Dr Vollstedt 100% on her comments about breeding like to like.

I, too, believed in the past that if you bred a short necked mare to a long necked stallion, you'd get a foal with a perfectly proportioned neck. A stunning headed stallion with a butt ugly mare - you should get a foal with an okay head - right?!
A tall stallion to a short mare = a normal sized foal - right?

Genetics sure is funny that way ...
You can end up with a funny headed foal on a long neck with short stubby legs ...

I have seen some absolutely disastrous looking foals out of petite TB mares, and WB or draft type stallions, when that is what the owners were trying to accomplish - that medium boned, decent sized offspring with the positive attributes of both sire and dam. What they ended up with was a mish mash that looked and performed at a sub standard level.

"Spot"

danskbreeder

Feb. 24, 2003, 05:25 PM

if you keep breeding to like then how did we get the modern warmblood. it was by adding lighter horses. the problem is that one musn't lose sight of the qualities that make a warmblood a warmblood. and to do piaffe and passage one needs a strong hind end. i for one think that a lot of what we see being called piaffe/passage shows little collection and a lot of just nice steps. and as usual Dray voiced what i was trying to say only more succintly and cogently.

danskbreeder

Feb. 24, 2003, 05:32 PM

i forgot to add that i don't believe you get an animal that is a mix ie half and half. one of my mares is a fabulous mover and the greatest temperament. her faults are a somewhat short neck and that she's almost 18 hands. so i breed to a stallion with a beautiful neck who is a refining stallion and hope for a better neck on a smaller body with her movement and most particularly her temperament. i'm not expecting a neck in the middle but hopefully one that looks like the sire. so far in her first two foals it has worked.

Spot

Feb. 24, 2003, 05:34 PM

danskbreeder - I think in order to arrive at the new "modern" warmblood, you needed to get mares like my Old Standby mare, who had the refinement and elegance of a TB, but were larger framed, and more expansive movers than a typical, dainty TB mare.
THAT would be a successful cross! (in my opinion anyhow ...)

I dont believe that my Puchi Trap mare would cross well with a WB stallion, unless it was a very refined modern type already and then I think that cross would work fine, but never in a million years would I cross her with an old type stallion.

Thats what I meant by my previous comments - hope that clears it up

"Spot"

dray

Feb. 24, 2003, 08:40 PM

I GIVE!!!

I thought I said...we have a nice base of TB mares. I was trying to be diplomatic and try not to say that "some TB mares should be neutered or never considered for Warmblood breeding", but if it makes you and Dr. V happy, I'll say it. Don't breed every TB mare and expect a nice competitive sport horse. That being said, there are some nice, large framed TB mares of good bone and sufficient movement which can make an adequate contribution to the gene pool and those are the type I mean which do cross nicely on some of the horses.

I believe that most breeders in America do the best they can to make the best selections they can for the mares they have and the budgets they have to work with.

I in no way suggested that a person select the anthisis of the mare and breed to it. Sorry it got interpreted that way.

A little bit of compassion when reading the posts and a few questions regarding the posts requesting clarification (particularly when responding to a lengthy post expressing complex principles or thought processes) rather than blasting the poster and assuming the posters are ignorant would make all of us Americans look a little more civil, if not on the verge of intelligent. If I wanted this type of conversation, I'd sit in the den while my husband watches FOX news. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif enough uncle

Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

alexandra

Feb. 24, 2003, 09:42 PM

Maybe there is the difference:
In all breeds -European or American- the selection for stallions is much harder. They are only allowed to breed, if approved and in some breeds tested (either stallin performance test or show record) with a certain result.
Everybody on the other hand can breed a mare. (She has to pass certain criteria in the warmblood breeds, but nowerdays over here you seldom see mares that would not make it in the main mare book).
So maybe that's the key of the theory that putting a TB on top of a warmblood mare is more successful than using a TB mare. Who has a TB mare that would be good enough to pass the same criteria as a breeding stallion ? (and who has a warmbloodmare that would pass the same criteria as a stallion ?) These horses are rare.

The F1 generation after using TB in warmbloodbreeding is always a bit tricky, can be great but also not very great. It does not matter if using TB on the dam or stallion side. So maybe there is a difference. Since you use much more TB mares (and as some of you stated not only good ones), breeding could be a bit riskier in regard of getting the archieved results.

But in Europe the TBs used (since used on the harder selected stallion side) are in the average better that the ones used on the damside in the US. Don't shoot me: I particularly want to stress that I am talking of comparing a licensed TB stallion to the average TB broodmare, because using TB mares overhere is really seldom done, because of lack of good TB mares. So that's why using TB stallions in Europe leads to a different result than using TB mares in the States.

You could also turn it around: Those of you who use imported wb mares as a base use mares that are much better than the average WB mare used in Europe -since you go over and buy only the really good ones ;-). Maybe this leads to something I was wondering when staying in Canada and watching a Hannoverian foal show. The foals presented were either of really good quality or of lets put it nice: soandso. The broad middle that you would see on a German show did not exist. I wish I could have taken notes which foals were those that I really liked, but there was no list.

Conclusion: The reason for more success in the market can not be found in the pure "amount" of used TB in breeding WBs.
(Please note I wrote more success in the market, not breeding better horses, because that was somehow the initial topic !)

Alexandra

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de

alexandra

Feb. 24, 2003, 09:44 PM

Oups, messed with the quote and edit button...

Hexel

Feb. 25, 2003, 05:26 AM

Breeding type to type has worked well for me.
I do not believe breeding type to type (like to like).
Would NOT involve improving what the stallion or mare might be lacking. If I bred a big bodied Tb. to a (not of the drafty type) warmblood mare and she had a longish back ,I would pick a Tb. stallion that was not long in the back. If the stallion was a little short in the neck I'd find a nice long necked mare.
However the basic types of both would be alike.
Both big more drafty or both a little finer. Then fix it from there.

stillpointfarm

Feb. 25, 2003, 06:12 AM

Alexander
I think Europe used the TB or the Trakehner on the sire side because it had a greater influence on the refinement of the European Warmblood overall. For example... one mare, doesn't necessarialy have that much impact on an overall breeding program, but take the refining influence of the Takehner or the TB Stallion and cover 300++ or more mares and you have impact or effect in the gene pool. I feel this is why the Trakehner, TB and Arab was used extensively in refining the European Warmblood and making it the sporthorse of today.

stillpointfarm

Feb. 25, 2003, 06:14 AM

oops sorry I spelled your name wrong, no offense http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It was my computer not me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dray

Feb. 25, 2003, 07:13 AM

Alexandra, Stillpoint,

Excellent points made by both of you. I can only hope that my investmetn in top graded European mares will serve me well here in America. However, we have a ways to go.

In Germany you have Equestrian events on television on weekends. Here we have overpaid basketball and football and hockey players, etc. And golf...talk about watching paint dry. We don't have a sense of Natinal pride in what we strive for as breeders. Now Cutting horses, bronc riding, barrell racing, reining horses...a different deal. It's like a traveling circus, excitement, danger. But it started out as a male dominated sport. Now there are female barrell racers who could as said in America "buy me over and over agin".

In Europe, have high quality auctions that are well attened. There is one coming up in a couple of weeks in my area and I have still only heard about it work of mouth and what I hear is that...this is a great secret, there will be deals and steals there.

In Europe there are breeding extravaganzas. Well...the point is that in america, we don't have a good infrastructure yet and the big farms whith healthy advertising budgets get the first shot at the business. Many small breeders like myself (10 marfes, a stallion, etc) don't have a discretinonary income that supports the farm. How do we get the customers? One way would be to go to Devon and some of the big shows. Stillpoint has done very well in this regard. I'm stuck in the hinterlands of Texas, have a "day job" as well and can't do that yet. However, I hope to in a few years.

I spent a good 15 years dreaming of owning a Warmblood, reading books, ordering stallion directories from Germany and other places so that I could study blood lines and "patterns" (thank God for trhe companion translations now available) thinking that was probably as close as I would get, but it was my passion and I made it happen (still shaking my head in wonder over that). Like Danskbreeder, Stillpoint and others, I watch the American market guardedly. I'm not sure the average American buyer will discern the difference between foals rated an overall 9 by the DV and other foals available. Can I afford to sell them for $5,000 to $7,000? No, I can't. Do my friends tell me I am over pricing my foals? Absolutely. So what's the answer...time. I'm in for the long haul. We'll see what happens when they are under saddle.

And if there ever is a rule that Americans have to compete on horses bred in America, then the small farms will stand a better chance...which is actually a differnt discussion along the same vein.

Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

stillpointfarm

Feb. 25, 2003, 09:51 AM

Carson....okay a long one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Devon is a wonderful show and one of the largest and well known, and actually the most prestigious....BUT......where are the spectators for the Breed Show ?? There are none, it is very sad, many come for the Grand Prix on the weekend, but the stands are empty for the Breed Show. This is something that I don't understand. Everyone complains about how the US is spread out and the diadvantages of not being able to see many horses all at once.....WELL.... here it is and no one comes except for the people who are attendees and perhaps some friends. For me, this is when I can see what stallions are producing with certain crosses and their offspring, to see the Stallions themselves in person, to see their conformation, movement, temperment, etc. It is a wonderful opportunity to see so many beautiful horses, youngsters, broodmares and foals all so imaculately turned out and braided, everyone is so proud of what they have produced. Many breeders are there and would love to met contacts who would be interested in purchasing their young stock. Yet no one attends except for the breeders. Its so sad, everyone spends so much money to go to this show. This would be such a wonderful place to showcase young stock. How do we change this ??
For a long time I felt that as breeders we have to put more time and training into the best of our youngsters and compete them in dressage, equation, hunters or jumping and WIN, I think that's our respondsibility....to get attention that as Americans we can breed competitive horses and WIN with them. I'm not saying my goal is to export, I'm saying that we can produce competitive horses, we need to get them out there and be seen. To see how lovely they are, their ridability, conformation, temperment, excellent gaits, great behavior and that they are competitive and can go all the way in any discipline. I have attended many Dressage Shows and Inspections here in the US and have seen many horses in my life. I also go online and see what Europe has to offer, no I have not gone to Europe, but I have a very good eye and see that on both sides of the pond we have some beautiful examples of breeding brillance and some not so good. For some people we can never change the mind set that buying in Europe is better, its something they have the prerogative to do. Just don't dismiss what Americans are breeding here in the US.
Okay...that's my cent and a half http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.stillpointfarm.net

Tiki

Feb. 25, 2003, 11:04 AM

Stillpointfarm - I've been saying the same thing for a while. The buyers complain but they don't go to the inspections or the breed shows where everyone (usually) is turned out to the 9's and there are lots of horses all in one spot to look at (isn't that the big complaint about Europe vs America???) I don't get it!! You're right! the only 'spectators' at the breed shows and the inspections are other breeders. Also, anyone in this country going to an auction (where there will also be a group of horses to look at) is looking for bargain basement 'auction' prices. I don't think so! Not for my youngsters - at least until that attitude changes!!

alexandra

Feb. 25, 2003, 11:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by stillpointfarm:
Carson....okay a long one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Devon is a wonderful show and one of the largest and well known, and actually the most prestigious....BUT......where are the spectators for the Breed Show ?? There are none, it is very sad, many come for the Grand Prix on the weekend, but the stands are empty for the Breed Show. [....] I cut the rest out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is very interesting to hear.

For a few years now these are the things I would like to see in the US once:
I want to see a real good hunter show. We do not have anything like that at all in Europe and it is a huge secret for me, from what I heard what has to be done and expected in such a competition. Than I would like to see one of the bigger shows in Florida, because your riding shows seem different than ours from what I heard regarding e.g. timing and classes and how everything is organized.
But I always tell people I would love to go to Devon to see what they are doing over there (I meant watching the breed shows, I have not heard over here that they have riding at the same time). And now I hear that this show is not attended by spectators except for the people competing or beeing family/friends !!!
Wow ! I can hardly believe that.

dray: you would be looked at as a bigger breeder over here. About 60% or even more of the breeders registered with the Hannoverian Verband have 1 mare ! 20 or so 2 mares and I think people with more than 6 are considered quite big at the Verband. (I hope I remember the numbers from a speach I heard last year correctly, but I am correct with the picture that can bee seen in this.)
And you are right about the TV: I just recorded on my VCR at the weekend the GP at Bremen (there were 120.000 € to be won, so it is the biggest event regarding price money for dressage in Europe).
I saw: Isabell Werth and Anthony, Ulla Salzgeber Rusty, Lone Jörgensen Kennedy, Husenbeth Piccolino, Lisa Wilcox Relevant... It was not on one of the main stations in TV but it was 1,5 hour of coverage and most of the rides not cut. The GP Special was won by the way by Salzgeber with incredible 1994 points (almost 80 %), followed by Jörgensen with 1960 and than by Werth with 1909 !

Stillpoint: you might be right with the use of stallion because of the bigger influence, but history tells us that it started not purely for that reason. We had much more draft horses used in aggriculture than TBs. Some of the still existing state studs were founded in the late 1700 to breed lighter horses for the use in the cavalry than those used on the farms for work. So the mare (horse) base was more on the heavier side and the army (right word ?) needed more athletic, faster and enduring horses. Thats why they started to cross TBs in that were "imported" from England.
Especially the kings of Hannover that were related to and at sometime also beeing the Kings of England saw that other type of horse over there and imported those lighter types for breeding.

Alexandra

P.S: I do not blame your PC, mine does the same http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.bei.t-online.de