The Anky thread that has nothing to do with anything but has a whole lot to say about alot

[cortez]

So off I went to Spruce Meadows to watch Anky do her demos on Junior. I have to say that he is a nice horse but he didn't blow my mind. VERY obedient and looks happy in his work. He took all of the big jumps that were in his way in stride and had a good look at the big crowd.

To those of you wondering, yes, Anky did all of the movements with a very deep neck on Junior. Even his piaffe was done very deep and I think (in my most humble opinion) he could have lowered his croup a bit more if she had allowed his poll to come up a bit more.

The best thing about Anky though was that she speaks so well to the crowd. The people that generally go to Spruce Meadows are a mixture of families wanting to see pretty horses jump, to those who are fairly educated in the sport of show jumping, to riders in the area that one day aspire to be in that big ring. Anky wowed all of these people with her humour and charisma. If nothing else I think it is great for dressage to gain public recognitian, maybe next time we approach a prospective sponsor they will have heard of the sport called dressage. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by cortez on Oct. 12, 2001 at 06:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Dec. 10, 2001 at 10:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Dec. 10, 2001 at 10:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Aug. 13, 2002 at 09:50 AM.]

[cortez]

So off I went to Spruce Meadows to watch Anky do her demos on Junior. I have to say that he is a nice horse but he didn't blow my mind. VERY obedient and looks happy in his work. He took all of the big jumps that were in his way in stride and had a good look at the big crowd.

To those of you wondering, yes, Anky did all of the movements with a very deep neck on Junior. Even his piaffe was done very deep and I think (in my most humble opinion) he could have lowered his croup a bit more if she had allowed his poll to come up a bit more.

The best thing about Anky though was that she speaks so well to the crowd. The people that generally go to Spruce Meadows are a mixture of families wanting to see pretty horses jump, to those who are fairly educated in the sport of show jumping, to riders in the area that one day aspire to be in that big ring. Anky wowed all of these people with her humour and charisma. If nothing else I think it is great for dressage to gain public recognitian, maybe next time we approach a prospective sponsor they will have heard of the sport called dressage. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by cortez on Oct. 12, 2001 at 06:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Dec. 10, 2001 at 10:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Dec. 10, 2001 at 10:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by cortez on Aug. 13, 2002 at 09:50 AM.]

[Jen West]

that "deep" is really just hanging on the reins at the upper levels?


It's not that he could have just "lowered" his croup more. It's that he was not engaged, connected, and "through."

It's wonderful that she speaks well to the crowd, but so does Monty Roberts and he's the biggest charleton there is.

I personally consider riding a horse cranked in to be, well, cruel. My impulse when I see people riding the way Ankey does is to go grab the reins and yank them out about a foot. If the horse is that far behind vertical the rider is NOT using her seat or her legs adequately. Can't be. If she were the horse's head would be elevated and he'd be stepping forward underneath himself. Short reins and a cranked in head block forward impulse before it is even generated. Period.

[cortez]

I do think at a huge venue like Spruce Meadows where 30,000 or more people would be watching Anky, including some pretty influential sponsors, it can only be good for the visibility of the sport. She entertains. Sponsors like to be entertained. And yes, I do place importance on sponsorship for shows because I have watched what the Southerns have done with Spruce Meadows over the last few decades. Wouldn't it be something to have a top quality tournament in dressage in Canada like the three that Spruce puts on for Jumpers? It would be cool! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[This message was edited by cortez on Sep. 20, 2001 at 07:02 PM.]

[Sannois]

I think she must have done something right in the past several years to have won several major world competitions. I always have found her a pleasure to watch. She was always in perfect harmony with Bonfire, although I always felt that he moved with way too much knee action, looked like a Hackney pulling a carrage. I really loved watching Isabell and Gigolo. They looked like they were in their own world in front of those huge crowds. Just my humble, dont know that much about Dressage opinion. Other than the Dressage we manage to do to survive at our events, /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[coppelia]

Her contact with Junior's mouth NEVER looked hard. Not once - so I would disagree that he was "hanging" on her hands. But to each their own opinion.

[4_beatin_it]

Three of us went to see Anky and Junior perform, never was the contact harsh, at the trot and canter, there was quite a bit of give in the reins. Anky was definately not hanging onto the horse's mouth

[JumperEq]

Obviously Anky's been doing something right over the last several years. But then I am just a hunter and eq rider venturing over to the dressage forum....what do *I* know about dressage?

~*~Erin B~*~
Have you hugged your horse today?

[Heidi]

I hope one day to ride as 'poorly' as Anky...

[PaulaM]

I happened to get some half way decent pictures with my digital. I hope you guys don't mind me sharing. I enjoyed watching it both Saturday and Sunday. I got to watch the Nation's Cup on Saturday but didn't get to watch any of the jumping on Sunday even though I was there. I spend until 2:30 helping at a booth and well, there were no seats to be found. My hubby did get some candid shots of Anky riding the chestnut around as well.

[PaulaM]

Anky on the chestnut. Did anyone ever hear who the chestnut was???

[This message was edited by PaulaM on Sep. 10, 2001 at 01:04 AM.]

[suzy]

Thanks for posting your beautiful pictures.

There is so much misunderstanding regarding deep, and it's something that cannot be adequately explained on a bulletin board. You really need to watch and listen to people who are doing it CORRECTLY to understand when and how to use it. It can be a cruel method if applied incorrectly, but so can anthing else applied incorrectly. I think that the proof of Anky's correctness is in the beauty with which her horses move and the willingness with which they perform. The horses tell the story.

[Jen West]

That's all. Maybe she ISN'T pulling. Not worth arguing. She still needs to grow some guts and give her horse his head. That's my opinion and it's based on what the Old Dead Guys say, not on what some up and coming superstar is selling.

Steve Solomom writes (in a gardening book of all things) "The disappearance of old books would be okay if the new stuff were better and wiser, but usually the opposite is the case. I have observed this tendency in every area of scholarship I have taken up seriously. As the sort of person Sir Albert Howard calls 'the laboratory hermit...someone who knows more and more about less and less' increasingly comes to dominate ever-wider areas of scholarship, the focus of scholarship gets ever narrower and less wise."

It is not that the flexion itself is evil, it is that it is a sign that the impul;sion generated is not matching the contraint taken by the rider. If a horse is overbent he is conclusively being ridden front to back. Period.

[Jen West]

From John Richard Young-

"This flexion of the poll, with the 'break' occurring just behind the ears, is a very different reaction than the fault of arching the entire neck. In arching the entire neck the horse brings his head in low nearer his breast. Since this necessitates lowering his head, the horse shifts more weight onto his forehand; he thus becomes heavy in front, which is the exact opposite of the balanced lightness flexion seeks to achieve."

That would explain the lack of lowered croups as well as the pervasive "double-dipping" (making TWO beats with each hind foot for each forefoot beat in the piaffer and yes, even in the passage) exhibited by World Cup horses.

[Jen West]

one can tell how hard the contact really is on a horse being ridden on contact? I'd imagine his nose is cranked shut, since that seems to be the fashion, and that alone tells me that the horse is not supple and relaxed- can't relax aND SOFTEN THE JAW IF IT'S CRANKED SHUT. Darn caplocks.

[Jen West]

when this book, Noel Jackson's Effective Horsemanship was published stated, with regard to the passage, that "The neck should be RAISED and gracefully arched with the poll as the highest point, and the head close to perpendicular."

If NObody is doing it "right" then the judges are forced to choose from among those who do it wrong the best.

[neighsayer]

Nice to hear from you Jen but you do seem to be having a conversation with yourself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Robbierox]

Maybe we could get Jen to do a "proper" demonstration on her own horse at next years Spruce Meadows tournament!

[Sparky]

LOL Robbie--you do indeed rock! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Cactuskate]

Well neighsayer, it has to be very lonely in Gaston, Oregon.

I am fascinated my those that though entitled to their opinions, find ease in criticising the "best" of our time. I, myself, would need credentials, or some proof that this person might be able to practice what they preach. Or maybe they are just good at reading books and interpreting the "written" word.

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[Checkers324]

For the most part, I agree with Jen West! But, I would like to take a moment to analyze the wonderful photos taken by PaulaM.

Starting with the photo of Junior: Poll low, curb shank horizontal (heavy contact), head on or slightly behind the vertical. Tail appears to be held down tightly. Although the horse is still somewhat in mid-stride, his hindleg appears as though it could still be further under his body as this point.

Now, the photo of chestnut: Man, that is a gorgeous horse! I have to know who that is. Overall, very pleasing picture. Very soft contact, the whole horse appears very relaxed and quite happy. He could be stepping under more, however. But again, it is overall a pleasing picture. Also, Anky's position is quite exemplary in this photo. Do you mind if I save it to add into my Webshots screensaver?

I'm in a passive, kind mood today, so I'm not going to complain too much. I thought I'd just post my comments on Paula's beautiful photos.

[Maria]

"I hope one day to ride as "poorly" as Anky..."

[Cactuskate]

And I would have to grow more than "guts" to ride with the jump crew running in the background, with the tractors resetting the jumper course.

Pity these photos are an instant in time, yet we assume every step is taken in this exact frame and contact and that Anky doesn't have the "courage" to let go of her horse's face.

Hellooouuu.

Yes we should all aspire to ride so poorly.

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[Jen West]

Oh yes- God forbid a horse pay attention to the rider with distractions in the background.

I'm sorry, I do a great deal of my riding with farm equipment running in THE SAME field. Jump crews would be nothing.
Considering that dressage's main application was originally for the training of warhorses it's a sad commentary indeed that the "top" horses cannot work with distractions or that when they do it's considered worthy of comment.

I do not "ride dressage" so you would never see me at Spruce Meadows even if I were to win a lottery and were able to afford that whole program. What I do do is apply the principles of classical dressage to the training of horses that I buy, reschool, and sell. They are not high dollar horses. Many are wonderful athletes with "issues" and a fair number are just good workable horses.

I didn't realize there was a minimum income required to post opinions on this board. If there is, please fill me in and I'll go somewhere a little "poorer." I also did not realize that winning is everything or the only thing. I am very very very sorry that so many people seem to think that quality and trophies are synonymous, and I am even sorrier that so many are willing to forego the principles on which this sport was developed in order to advance a level and to win.

When everyone is doing it wrong or poorly, the judges are forced to pick the best from that lot. I don't give a rip what anybody has won. I flat guarantee that the piaffer is NOT supposed to have six beats, and I will reiterate, virtually EVERY World Cup horse I saw on OLN was tapping a hind foot between each step. No, I do not wish I rode that poorly. I would rather walk and trot correctly the rest of my life and never even canter again than to force a horse into a six beated gait. Period. That wouldn't even fly in a good circus, and THAT is sad.

[suzy]

>>>I am very very very sorry that so many people seem to think that quality and trophies are synonymous,

Nope, that's not what we think. It's just that we see something different than you. There is no such thing as perfection in dressage -- the scores prove it: a 10 = excellent, not perfect. So, yes, we are able to forgive something that isn't perfect. Anky is so fluid and as one with her horse that I can "forgive" her for her occasional mistake. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm just another who would like to ride like that.

[AMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...virtually EVERY World Cup horse I saw on OLN... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WAIT! I can't get involved in the discussion because I've never seen any of the people we are discussing ride and haven't watched any dressage in far too long--BUT when did OLN show dressage?!? I watch the Grands Prix when they are on Tuesday nights, but would LOVE to see dressage!Will there be more?

[Cactuskate]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen West:

I didn't realize there was a minimum income required to post opinions on this board. If there is, please fill me in and I'll go somewhere a little "poorer." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

??????

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[Louise]

Jen West, if there were a monetary worth requirement for posting on these forums, I suspect the boards would be just about empty.

You know that you are welcome to post your opinions, just as everybody else is welcome to post theirs.

Just remember everybody - "Issues not individuals"

(Haven't had to post that in a while /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[Jen West]

that win international medals. When horses have six legs I'll change that.

It takes a fair bit of money to compete in any equestrian events at any level. More than money it takes free time, which, with three children and a (small) farm in addition to horses, I do not have. When people say that because they haven't seen me at the big shows then yes, it DOES come down to a financial commentary. Just about the only sport in which one can pay one's own way at ANY level is barrel racing, and, well, ya jus' AIN'T gonna see me runnin' cans. Period.

I'd rather be right than president and I'd rather ride lower levels well than international levels appallingly poorly. Any time a horse is performing so unnaturally as to mark six beats in ANY gait that horse is being ridden appallingly poorly in my book. I just can't see where the opposing side can be argued with any merit, but please, have at it. I'd love to hear the justification for showing a horse who cannot keep his hind feet in SINGLE time with his fore at the international level. Takers?

[PaulaM]

Checkers324, feel free to save it if you like.

[PaulaM]

If anyone else in interested here are a couple more pics.

[PaulaM]

And last one.

[Jen West]

a "dressager" I'll throw this into the mix- it's from this week's Chron --- "Much of what I have learned has come from books and old photos, "---

If it's good enough for George Morris, well, enough said. When I see a CURRENT GP star doing advanced moves on a floating rein or better yet one-handed on a floating rein, I will put the same credence into their philosophies as I do in the ODGs.

[Brookes]

Jen West, perhaps what you saw was Anky having a difficult time with a difficult horse. That's all there could be to it. Perhaps this horse's training needs some polishing. If he was doing a six beat movement, yes that is incorrect.

However . . . .Anky is a goddess in the saddle. She (from what I have heard in reviews) is also a very classical teacher. Classical as in ODG's! I ride with an almost ODG (he's pretty old) and I asked him about this. He laughed and said "they are horses aren't they?", I believe this to mean that they make mistakes and we can't always fix it right then and there, especially during a demonstration.

Please don't get upset with everyone, we believe in our heroes and will stand up for them. Perhaps Anky herself had a bad day, been known to happen, just ask Isabelle Werth each time she beat her! What a great battle that was, watching those two go head to head, loved it!

Oh and Jen your remark about running around cans, cracked me up! LOL! I wouldn't ride a barrel racer for love nor money, those ponies go way too fast for me, thank you very much!

Hang in there Jen, our barks are worse than our bites, except for a couple of us anyway, kidding.

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[coppelia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The best thing about Anky though was that she speaks so well to the crowd. The people that generally go to Spruce Meadows are a mixture of families wanting to see pretty horses jump, to those who are fairly educated in the sport of show jumping, to riders in the area that one day aspire to be in that big ring. Anky wowed all of these people with her humour and charisma. If nothing else I think it is great for dressage to gain public recognitian, maybe next time we approach a prospective sponsor they will have heard of the sport called dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this whole discussion is what an amazing job Anky has done as an ambassador for dressage.

The dressage scene around here stinks. And I mean badly! I have a lot of issues with it, and unfortunately I compare the dressage scene to the jumper scene... and not much can compare to Spruce Meadows and the intensity of the hunter/jumper community in the surrounding area.

But take a minute to look past Anky and her correct or incorrect riding for a second... look at the background in some of PaulaM's pictures (thanks for posting them by the way!). There's thousands of people with their eyes glued on a horse and rider in that ring. They listened very carefully to what she said. They learned about pirouettes and passage and extended trots. They thought it was beautiful! And in 10 minutes Anky & Junior did more for dressage than any of us could have done in 10 years. That has to be respected.

And Joe Schmoe who brought the family to Spruce for the day doesn't give a crap if Junior's nose is in the air or at his knees. But he might now know a little bit of what Dressage is about.

[Checkers324]

Once again, I have to agree with Jen West.

I really don't think Anky's riding is a good example of dressage. Joe Schmoe will see a horse on a heavy contact with straight hocks out behind him, and think that's dressage at its best. That is NOT the picture I want people getting of dressage. I think the main reason dressage is so unpopular is because the average non-horse person who doesn't know a thing about the technical stuff, just sees a tense and unhappy horse and gets very turned off, understandably.

We are not just talking about a few secons of ONE difficult ride on ONE difficult horse. We're talking about World Cup-winning, Olympic silver medal-winning tests on BONFIRE! Heavy contact, poll dipped down, head on or behind the vertical, weight-bearing hocks straight, airborne hocks pointing skyward, croup high, back hollowed, four-beating at trot and canter, very nearly pacing at the walk. Things you WISH you saw in just the losing combinations. Nope, this is WINNING World Cups and Olympic medals! Just because someone's winning everything in sight does NOT mean she is in any way good. I believe one of our fellow BBer's once said "You are only as good as the judge thinks you are". Many judges have not even ridden or trained up to the level they are judging at!

I just do NOT see in about 99% of winning pairs -- INCLUDING Anky and her horses -- the same collection, energy, engagement, fluidity, HARMONY and overall CORRECTNESS I see in the horses of the classical masters. Now, of course, that's just my NON-competitive, NON-moneyed, opinion.

[Velvet]

I've ridden Andalusians in a barn that was purely "classical" to the point of "new age." I've also ridden in very competitive barns. In both I've experienced horses who were taught the upper level movements by top riders.

If you've ridden it and you have an eye, you can see that Anky's horses are light and free. You can also see that the most of the Lippizans ridden in exhibitions in this country are sucked back and usually not sitting down as they do movements.

You can ride a horse deep and it won't be heavy, nor will it be behind IF RIDDEN CORRECTLY. The problem in this country is that no one has any experience (usually--not always) on horses that are trained by top international riders. So, what they feel are on horses that are incorrectly trained by other local riders or trainers who don't necessarily know what they are doing.

Now, do I think all horses need to be ridden deep? Nope. Do I think all riders can ride a horse correctly in a deep frame? No way.

So, unless you've dived into both ends of a black bottomed pool, don't tell me which one you "think" is deeper. I'll only trust those who have successfully touched bottom (ridden to the FEI levels) when they say one is deeper (better) than the other. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[GO-dog-GO]

I'm not too smart Jen, could you explain this statement to me please?

"but so does Monty Roberts and he's the biggest charleton there is."

[Velvet]

charlatan /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[GO-dog-GO]

Oh. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Cactuskate]

coppelia, thank you for steering....

You are absolutely correct in focusing back on the exposure to dressage. We do need it seen by "the masses" before we can expect the interest to follow.

Bravo to Spruce for opening that door and with someone of International acclaim. I suppose they could have opted for someone of lesser acclaim. But from what I gather the Southern's don't do anything half way. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[KellyS]

From the October 2001 Practical Horseman:

"USDF Needs to Grow Up" article by Janine Malone, Regional Director for USDF. This is an excerpt from the article describing some of the problems with USDF and the horse community on a whole.

"Lose the "sour grapes" attitude!"
Let's acknowledge expertise and be willing to learn from it. Too often, there's a culture of criticism among lower-level riders and trainers toward top riders in our sport - "S/he's no that great; my ideas are better" - instead of "I can learn from this. Nobody's perfect."

I thought this rather aptly applied to this thread!

[Sannois]

asking? Who do you admire as a Dressage rider? And what are your credentials as a Dressage rider? Not trying to be sarcastic, but just wondered. I am hard pressed to find any fault with Anky, or Isabelle or many of the big names, There is a German Rider Monica Theroaudescou, ack, killed the spelling that was really hard to watch ride in a Volvo world cup tape I have from 92. He legs and body were all over, and her horse was looking like he was sick of the whole thing. But that was just my opinion, She won one of the competitions. Oh and By the way Good point KAM /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Sannois on Sep. 22, 2001 at 07:39 PM.]

[easyjumper1]

Here's another pic of Anky, with Idool.
Personally I like her way of riding(not just because Im dutch meself ;o)). I really think this way you keep the horse sound longer than if you
ride horses with their head always janked up. It
spares the back of the horse. Many riders ride this way nowadays. It has proved itself to
be a good method because in earlier days. People like Anne-Grethe Jensen did not ride this way and
her horse Marzog was burnt up long before. And
if you look at Bonfire and think of how happy he looks and observe his soundness and at many other horses who were ridden this way and retired, I conclude this IS a much better way. But thats just
my own little opinion.

[muley]

I would like to say a couple of things here.
One, I really hate that photo.

Two, is a question to y'all. How can a horse be connected, on the bit, and using the ring of muscles if he's touching his chin to his chest like the above photo? Anky may be the most successful rider of our time, but I still think it's ugly.

I have no "credentials", I'm not a trainer, I'm just a person who's been studying dressage for the last 15 years, and this "new" style riding has just come along in the past few. I'll stick to the "old" style thank you!
But I have my opinion, and you just read it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[muley]

I see in the photo that Idool is using himself, he is stepping way up, he is free and looks light. But, he is also broken at the 4th vertebra which has always been a BIG no no in my training.

I am a bit confused I guess, I see a horse who's "head" is being ridden, another big no no as far as the training that I have received in past years.

But I see a horse who is going nicely "if you look past the chin to chest thing, the body looks correct".

I guess the thing that concerns me is that Anky seems to know what and WHY she's doing this. But it looks to me like if you DON'T know how and WHY you are doing this, it could be dangerous in hands that are not as talented as Anky's.

In other words, just because it's a useful tool "or seems to be" in an Olympic rider's hands, doesn't mean that every training level yahoo should try this technique. I think there must be more to it than meets the eye. Kinda like lunging, to do it right takes a lot of training and practice.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[judy]

I agree, Muley, the way Anky is riding in the pic doesn't look like what I've been taught. I suspect that a novice (anything less than expert)rider would run the risk of the horse not using the scalenus muscle if they tried to ride 'deep', but this horse looks as if he is using his. Perhaps the expert riders can do so correctly. I think the novice would end up with the horse pushing down at the withers instead of telescoping the neck. It looks so artificial, also. I'm a bit skeptical that it's any more than a fad, but, who knows, maybe I'm in error. I certainly don't ride at an expert level, so it's entirely possible that they're right and I'm wrong.

[Maria]

KAM, CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!

I know Janine. She's spot on!!! I wish I knew what she has forgotten.

We all have so much to learn. Some of these people that are being condemed, heck, they are flying over here or we're flying over there and they are WILLINGLY passing their knowledge on to us. And what are some of you guys doing, you're beating them up.

[sugarlump]

Well Cortez you really started something didn't you? Who would have thought this would nearly take on a life of it's own.

[cortez]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif First let me say Welcome Sugarlump! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I really wanted to head in the direction of how events like this can help us market dressage.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Little did I know..........

I am a little naive, I believe.

[coppelia]

Just try reading this discussion from an outsider's perspective. Yuk.
KAM - thank you for posting that from PH. SO true.

I also have watched Anky perform both years at Spruce, as well as the Celle stallions. I love watching Anky and will applaud her style and accomplishments till the cows come home.

The Celle stallions put on a fabulous show also... But my opinion was that it was A SHOW - a demonstration and a good one at that, but it was not the highest level of dressage.

Those matched chestnut stallions are all wearing matching tack, with highly polished gold breastcollars & other fancy trimmings. Then there are the motionless riders with their long red coats and big hats. Their turnout is flashy and flawless, and their timing in their riding superb. They did the "tricks" that got oohs and aahs from the crowd, and from what I remember, for me it wasn't the most amazing performance ever. If you took away all the glitz and glamour attached to the Celle show and put just one chestnut horse in the ring with a rider in a top hat and tails, it would have lacked sparkle and energy. Sure you would have seen a beautiful rider on a horse with a big trot and great movement, but the really collected GP movements... just not what I saw with Anky on her horses.

Her horses were working very hard, but still made it look easy 95% of the time. And my thought is that sometimes all the movements still aren't so confirmed in the horses she brings over on the long trip to Canada to do a demo. You could tell that Junior's piaff needed work - it's not automatic for him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> These hanoverians were soft and flexible their ears were forward (or to the side,but never back!), and their movement... WOW. I've YET to see any dressage horse that compares to those Hanoverians with movement, grace and style.... It was as though they were floating a good foot off the ground - and they were quiet and relaxed amidst all the distractions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm... If you were there for the DuMaurier, you must have been so taken by all the big trots that you missed the one saucy stallion who was so full of himself that he broke his breastcollar? His ears were NOT always forward, and he thought the "distractions" of the crowd were just reason for him to be extra fancy! He was absolutely my favorite boy out there because he was full of personality, where some of the other studs looked like robots.

All the top riders are only human. We can chose to learn from them, or criticize them without really understanding what we've seen. Like I said before, I will applaud Anky always, but that doesn't mean I don't see some mistakes in her performance. I don't think she's perfect. But I know that if it were me in that big ring riding for 50,000 people I'd make a lot more mistakes than that!! I'd give anything to be 1/2 as good as she is. Just my 2 cents.

[sugarlump]

Thanks for the welcome Cortez. I believe you and Coppelia among others are spot on.
Anky may not be the most flawless rider in the dressage universe but she is likey the most 'real' person in that universe. She deserves praise for bringing dressage to the masses

[PaulaM]

I too watched the Celle stallions last year and in all actuallity, yes, they were nice but they didn't blow my mind away. In fact, on Sunday they did leave one of the stallions in the barn as he had kicked one of the other ones. Anky did a great thing for the dressage world here in Alberta by coming over and doing her demos.

From what I have seen here in Alberta, the only people who come to watch dressage are family members and competitors. Not many people just come out to watch for an afternoon like they do for jumping.

[rebecca yount]

I am not being critical. But I noticed that the left front and the left hind of the Idool horse are both on the ground at the same time in this (admittedly only one instant) photograph. It looks like he's cantering. In a 3-beat canter the outside hind would be on the ground by itself, then the inside hind and outside front, then the inside front. Does this show that he's not in a pure canter? At that instant?

[Velvet]

Did someone say Anky has never competed against the best in the world? What alternate reality are you living in??

Ahem, here are some of her many accomplishments:


Worldcup Finals:

2000: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1999: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1998: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1995: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1993: 9th with Gestion Cocktail
1990: 9th with Prisco
1989: 7th with Prisco


World Championships:

1998: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
2nd team
1994: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
2nd team
1990: 23rd with Prisco


European Championships:

1999: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
2nd team
1997: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
2nd team
1995: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
2nd team
1991: 5th with Gestion Bonfire
3rd team
1989: 22nd with Prisco
5th team


Olympics

2000: Gold medal with Gestion Bonfire
Silver Medal Team
1996: Silver Medal with Gestion Bonfire
Silver Medal Team
1992: 4th Gestion Bonfire
Silver Medal Team
1988: 26th with Prisco
5th team


Dutch Championships:

2000: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1998: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1995: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1994: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1993: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1992: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1991: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
1990: 1st with Prisco

Titles of honour:

2000: Rider of the century
1993 t/m 1996 and 1998: Rider of the year
1994: Sportswoman of the year

[coppelia]

Thank you Velvet.

[coppelia]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[cortez]

Sooooooo, Dezertrose, who is "your type of horse and rider"? Who is your ideal, your icon, the person that you look up to as an example?

Man, I am so sad this topic has turned into Anky bashing and those who feel they must defend her. Could this be why we have such a hard time marketing dressage to sponsors and supporters? I must reiterate that Anky is a GREAT ambassador for dressage no matter how you look at it. She is fun to listen to and fun to watch. I look forward to the next time Spruce Meadows brings an international competitor in dressage back into our area! Kudos to ya Spruce no matter what the critics have to say!

[Maria]

sigh

<<<<Don't forget that, my idea of riding style is different from yours... I like a pretty hunt seat [that is effective) with the heels down, and the body extremely quiet [no floppy legs that I tend to see in the dressage world).....>>>>>

No offense ment to hunter riders here, but, what's your point? Although GOOD dressage and GOOD hunter riding have simularities, they are different.

mariaknowingsheshouldjustleavethisalone,banginghea donthewalltimeandtimeagain

[Velvet]

Anky NOT a beautiful rider? Hello? I've watched enough jumper riders over the year to know a beautiful seat when I see one, and it belonged on Conrad Homfeld. I also know a gorgeous style in dressage, and that belongs to Anky--you just need to be more well rounded in your education of riding abilities.

And there is NO WAY to buy a World or Olympic top position. You have to have talent. You cannot be a passenger in dressage and be at the very top. Not ever gonna happen, no way, no how. Maybe in the jumpers it can happen (I didn't think so, but maybe the horse can overcome the riders lack of ability--you can enlighten me on this one), but in dressage there is no longer this hole. You must be able to ride, or you won't win.

Sure, money plays a part, and getting in front of the international judges help, but the competition is very, very tight at the top (because they all have the money, the horse and the talent) and she's on the top.

Your opinion is, at best, misguided. And that's not my opinion, that's based on the facts I listed.

[cortez]

Anky is a gorgeous rider. I think that the picture that PaulaM posted of Junior was typical of how Anky had to ride him with all of the hubbub going on around her. There were sponsors out looking around the course, riders walking the lines, and kids rolling down and running up the grass hill in front of the stands. Junior did not put a foot wrong, he was obedient and did his job------he just looked very strong. She reassured him but he is a young stallion and the atmosphere was alot for him to handle. On the Wednesday that we watched Spruce Meadows gave her NO time to warm him up so she did it in the ring!!!! If you have ever been to Spruce you know that's a holy sh&% experience for anyone. So back off the slagging of Anky and appreciate what she did and will continue to do. Show Dressage at it's top level.

[Eilonwy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Accomplishments don't mean a lot all the time either <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um ........I don't agree. Especially not in dressage. I know how gosh darn hard it is for me to do my dinky little Training level tests. For someone to acceive that many accomplishments in such a hard dicipline she has to be doing something right. It isn't like there was just one instance. I don't think you can accuratly judge a horse and rider untill you yourself have ridden at the level they do. And I certainly don't think you can deny a list of acceievments like the one she has. To say she didn't deserve those awards is basically saying all of competative dressage is wrong because she is obviously what the judges are looking for.

[suzy]

Totally agree with Velvet on this one (shocking, huh?). And adding on to Eilonwy's good points is this: Anky has brought a number of horses to the FEI levels; not just one! Also, Bonfire is at least 17 (maybe older) and still SOUND! If that isn't a testament to the correctness of someone's training methods than I'm sure I don't know what is. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think there is any ONE person in any discipline that you can unequivocally say is the BEST. There are a number of people in every discipline who are among the best, and that's a pretty nice place to be.

P.S. I personally do not see where comparing a hunter rider's seat to a dressage rider's seat is of any value -- they are two different disciplines!

[marianne]

I would much rather watch a dressage rider who may flop their legs in rhythm than a hunter rider kissing the horse's ears. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif As for good seats, how about Gunther Siedel or C. Traurig or Klimke, or Debbie MacDonald?

[muley]

I like her riding, I think she presents a pretty picture on a horse.

I have a question that on one has answered yet however...

How can one be correct if a horse is broken at the 4th vertebra? Is it ok now not to be through and connected in Grand Prix tests?

If you look at Anky's photos, you will see this over and over.

Is it not considered important to have a "thru" horse anymore? Or one that is engaged? I see in many photos her horse not working off the hind end.

I'm not trying to say what she does is wrong or trying to stir up more trouble, I'm just trying to understand what is correct and what isn't.

In the 15 years that I have been riding dressage, these things that I mentioned above, have been incorrect. When did this change?

Can anyone explain this to me? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[suzy]

The pictures of her horse in that deep outline were taken in the warm-up arena, not during competition. She warms-up very deep, but right before her test, she rides her horse into an uphill outline and the competition photos show that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[muley]

Ok, so this brings up another question.
It's ok to school incorrectly, broken vertebre, overbent?

I again, have been taught and all that I have read tells me to school correctly, show the same, not school one way, and show another.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[judy]

I would like an explanation of what riding with the neck over-bent does for a horse. I've not heard or read anything that gives me a good idea. I may just be over-sensitive to the issue, having had a horse whose main evasion was going behind the bit. Why wouldn't it be as easy for horses trained this way to use it as an evasion? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they *are* going to do it in expert hands, but if this becomes acceptable, many less than expert riders are going to be doing it.

As far as Anky's riding, there's no denying that she's an expert. That doesn't mean, of course, that she's perfect. If I question some of what she does, that does not take away from her expertise. There are many very good riders, but apparently she has had the winning combinations many times. She certainly has been a boon in popularizing dressage, all the more reason to not ride a horse with its neck over-bent and waaay behind the vertical, unless she can say what the bio-mechanics are of the activity.

If any of you reading this know what it is accomplishing, I would appreciate an explanation as I can't quite understand yet.

[Robbierox]

Mary Wanless stated publicly in a clinic in Canada last November that Anky is the most perfect rider she has ever seen. Mary stated that Anky's position is absolutely classic and that she uses her body position, particularily her front, in a way that enables her to be very effective with her aids yet ride very softly at the same time.

[Checkers324]

You know, I'm really tired of hearing about Anky, competition, deep vs. not deep, etc. I'm not even reading this thread anymore. I just hope at least some of you guys have some common sense. Bye y'all.

--Checkers324, forever faithful in the classical methods... The old masters' knowledge cannot be denied!

[muley]

I never understood this to be a problem with how Anky looks on a horse.
I thought we were talking about how the horse was being schooled.

Anky is a beautiful rider, her position is perfect.

That's never been in question.
My question is, and has been...

How do the mechanics of riding a horse way behind the bit, and over bent, help a horse in his training? Especially when you are showing in a completly different frame? Is there anyone out there that can explain this??

Anyone??

[Maria]

Ok, I'm going to step out on a limb here. I know very little of the mechanics of deep. But from what I have read and seen, deep does not just employ the horses neck. Deep is the haunches engaged, the horse working over the back, a lift to the shoulders. You are NOT holding the horses head down with your hands. Deep actually promotes flexability and engagement.

Oh goodness, please some brave soul help me out here.

There was a good article on deep in I believe "Hunter and Sport Horse" magazine. Jean Brinkmann was describing deep. If you can wrangle up the magazine it is worth the read.

What gets people in trouble, is those who see Anky, or Isabelle doing this exercise, they go home, try to duplicate it and get their horses all stuck and on the forhand. Correct deep work is misunderstood by many many many people. And as someone earlier stated, deep is only done for short periods of time. You don't spend your hour schooling session, 6 days a week riding deep. As with everything, good in moderation.

HELLLLLLLPPPPPPP, Why can't I leave this thread alone.

[KellyS]

For a super article on "riding deep", read the July/August issue of "Hunter & Sport Horse" - it really describes how "deep" is a tool for getting the horse "through" and "engaged".

I just started taking dressage lessons with an upper level rider who trains with an Olympic dressage rider. I have made more improvement in a month with my mare than over the past year. We do incorporate "deep" into our warm-up.

The top riders and trainers use this method with great success. I have refrained from getting into this argument since I know that the training I am receiving is correct and it is kind of pointless to try and debate it with people who really don't seem to have a clear idea of what it is like to ride at the upper levels. When they are asked to ride at a demonstration at Spruce Meadows or when they win an Olympic Gold Medal, then they can judge all they want.

And I think that picking a horse or rider to bits from one picture is nonproductive to say the least. The picture only catches one moment in time and without witnessing an entire test or performance, how can we adequately judge a horse and rider at all?

Donning flamesuit now!

[DMK]

I won't profess to being (*giggle*) anywhere close to being a dressage expert, but all the same, I have just one question to pose...

What if the ODG's aren't right?

I mean, speaking from the hunter world, we have a bunch of current ODGs that have usurped the last group of ODGs. But if we hadn't taken the time to listen to the current ODGs, back when they were NOT actually OLD or DEAD, but were alive and kicking, we would still be sitting somewhere around the horse's tail over the top of a jump...

[Velvet]

The problem with trying to explain how it is done correctly is pretty near impossible. Riding is a feel. You have to be able to ride under someone who really knows how to ride a horse deep so they can tell you when it's correct. If you just watch and try to emulate what you "think" you see (with no idea of the feeling), you'll get the wrong thing.

When you ride a horse that is truly deep and over the back, but elastic, supple and free in the front...you'll know it. And you'll know there is nothing like that feeling and everything you thought about it was wrong.

Guess that's my last comment on this issue (yeah, right--if I can stay away).

[Maria]

Velvet,

Eggggggggxactly!

[muley]

This is how I look at it.
Anky, Nicole,Isabel, and all the others that are top riders in our sport have a big responsibility.

Because they have the ability, and the feel to do something that "appears" to be less than correct or accepted training. They go on to win the gold medal, then every yahoo in the dressage world with no idea of the why's and wherefore's of riding deep will go and bury their horse's head in their chests and think they're riding "deep" when in fact their doing more harm than good.

I have always been taught that a horse cannot be through with a broken 4th vertebra. I don't care what anyone says, it cannot be through in the back and hind end if he's broken the connection in the neck. He also cannot be raising the wither if he's not connected.

I think it's wrong, incorrect, and flawed training. and i imagine that we will be arguing about this for a long time. But I am hoping that one of these days, this "fad" will subside, and the top riders will come back to the classical way of doing things.

This is also my last post on the subject as we could be argueing about this forever. Kinda like religion and politics heh?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[coppelia]

Well, since I set myself up on another thread for a critique, I may as well crucify myself here....

Here's me and the same 4 yr old, same day as the other photo was taken but earlier in the ride. I KNOW that he's behind the vertical and normally his position is not this way. But he's only 4 and still not always steady in his position and this kind of thing can happen. But I do warm him up "deep" like this in the neck...

I know it's impossible, but TRY to ignore the nose position and look at his legs. Do you think he's stepping under? I do. And this is the warm up of our ride - you can see another picture on the critique thread of our "working frame". I can move his neck where I want it and to me that's a good thing.
Besides, I wuv him /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[judy]

If we assume (for the moment only) that I am an expert rider, capable of riding my horse through and forward in all gaits, at what point do I start riding deep? Is it started at the low levels or is it only a higher level exercise? Once that is figured out, *why* do I do it? What does it accomplish? People are saying it's good to do it but not why. So I do it for a few minutes at a time and I do it correctly, what have I done?

This appears to be the same type of situation as there is in the rein back. There is the opinion that the rein back is never to be over-trained, then some say that reinback can help develop muscles in the hindquarters and should be used accordingly. Two different points of view, but what are the mechanics involved?

A lot of us go on hearsay, we do it because it works for someone else, but how often do we actually know *what* we are doing? For the tried-and-true training, it's probable safe to accept and use the principles that are taught, but for something new and relatively untried, shouldn't we know more than just that the Olympic riders are using it?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I just want to know what it is supposed to accomplish, and why.

[GO-dog-GO]

Seems like the only answer to this thread is to get Anky involved. She then can explain what was going on at SM and what she�s doing when she trains/rides/competes with her horses. You all can argue for ever about training/riding but if the object of you criticism is not able/here to defend /explain herself, you�d be best off to not relate your remarks to that persons riding. It REALLY easy to criticize someone when their not around. Sure, you can have an opinion and express it but critics are a dime a dozen.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[suzy]

Regarding Coppelia's two pictures - go look at her first picture in the thread "4 year old critique please." Overall a nice photo with the horse's poll up. Notice though (and Coppelia, I'll even loan you my frying pan to smack me with after I make this point) that he is not trotting in diagonal pairs. Three legs are grounded almost simultaneously. I can forgive this since he's 4 and stuff like this will happen during those moments when the hind legs aren't active enough.

Now, go to the picture of this nice, young horse being ridden deep. In addition to a wonderfully round outline and good reaching under of the hind legs, you can see that his legs are moving in clear diagonal pairs with two legs off the ground and two legs on the ground. The loosening of the back that deep encourages will improve a horse's gaits (when done correctly, of course) -- the schwung and the purity.

And Velvet is right when she says you can't explain deep - you have to ride it under the supervision of someone like Anky.

[fiona]

Lovely horse and rider but
I'd like to see a better defined trapezius muscle....

[cortez]

Wow, Suzy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif cool.

We have had to really work to make sure Coppelia keeps the 4 year old active. He sometimes is concentrating so hard on the task at hand that he gets almost "stuck" on the ground. We have done loads of trotting poles and encouraged him to do these poles in a "deep" frame /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif . He has even gotten to the point of doing raised trot poles and his topline and strength of movement has changed dramatically.

Very cool what you have observed just from these two photos. Soooooo, how about doing virtual coaching? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[muley]

Your boy is beautiful, however, he is quite on the forehand, and his back end is not as forward as his front legs are behind, which means that he is not working up as well as he could be. The rider is also perched forward which could also will contribute to the horse being forehandy.

This is not a pretty picture especially to see a young horse so behind the verticle as he is. His nose should be out and not nearly so restricted especially at this stage of his training.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[magnum]

As a pro-deep (WHEN NEEDED AND NOT OVERDONE) rider, I have to comment how much I was also ONCE AGAINST DEEP.

Then, as Velvet says, I rode it.

Fred, with his short neck, tight back and stiff withers, came around like a pro. In one season, we moved successfully from 1st level to schooling third level. With so LITTLE effort. DEEP proved key to be the key to unlock Fred's tight back and withers -- it LENGTHENED HIS NECK, ENGAGED HIS HOCKS BETTER (no more pogo stick horse! WOW!), and got enough SWUNG so for the first time EVER I could sit the trot.

All other instructors before me told to do "this or that" so I could sit the trot. It was always my fault and I believed it. Then, a European-based trainer came over and said, "Your back is excellent - it isn't the problem. NO ONE could sit on that back because he isn't has no SWUNG -- He isn't letting you."

Immediately at that point, I was instructed to ride deep. In a DAY I was COMFORTABLE SITTING the swinging back in the trot. As Velvet says, don't knock it until you have FELT IT.

Oh, and thank God Anky, Isabel, Ulla and Nicole did NOT refuse DEEP as a concept. If so, we would have been deprived of their lovely horses with swinging backs, upraised withers, etc.

Copp: As for your last photo, the horse could be more UP and more ROUND in the withers and at the base of the neck. He looks somewhat collapsed in the withers -- downhill and not stepping UP AND THRU enough.

Keep at it, we all struggle most of the time. I am sorry to be critical, but those who are anti-deep are gonna LOVE that photo -- maybe you were just caught at a bad moment?

"If dressage were EASY, everyone would do it."

[Velvet]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I will say only one more thing...I think the word they used was probably "schwung." /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[magnum]

I am getting KILLED on the UD BB:

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006517.html

[magnum]

OK, Velvet, you say POTATOE and I say POTATO, You say TOMATOE and I say.... LOL! Yes, you are correct, as always. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[judy]

You have started to tell me what you're accomplishing, or trying to accomplish, with riding deep. Tell me more. Why do you think it works, what is happening?

I am not criticizing anyone. I'm asking why certain things are done. Granted that you may not be able to explain how it feels until you've ridden it, but you should know *why* you're doing it.

[Velvet]

If you're going to play in the Devil's playground, you have to be willing to beat up some demons! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Runaway from the darkside! Come back to us--the good side of the force! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[judy]

I went to the site you posted and read your comments. Thanks again, you've really helped me get an understanding, as did Oakhill Stables. Very good explanations and I'm beginning to see how 'deep' could be a useful tool.

[magnum]

my alias. One of those ladies will probably be judging me at the next show ... if they have ever ridden, that is.:)

Ah, I tend not to be loyal to any one board, but I do love hearing all the funnies on this one. It is much more lively than many. Thanks for the laughs, gals.

[Robbierox]

Remember.....people used to think that world was FLAT too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[suzy]

>>>Your boy is beautiful, however, he is quite on the forehand, and his back end is not as forward as his front legs are behind, which means that he is not working up as well as he could be. The rider is also perched forward which could also will contribute to the horse being forehandy.

Wow, you are a tough crowd to please. To everyone who has made criticisms of this horse, PLEASE remember that he is ONLY 4 years old. Also, he is a big, rangy horse. Of course, you can't have perfection at this stage. Please give this talented rider and nice horse a break, would you. There is more to praise about this horse/rider combination than to dis. If you have better pictures, please do post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Velvet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Of course, you can't have perfection at this stage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What sort of a DQ are you? Shame on you for tarnishing your tiara!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[muley]

She is the one that asked us how we thought the horse was. I told her. I realize that the horse is a 4 year old. But this person thought that this was a good frame? This is what I perceved her to be saying. I was just telling her that he was in fact not stepping up as far as she thought, and he was so far behind the verticle to be dumping on the forehand. Having a baby on the forehand is expected, but it could be lessened if she would sit up and back, and push his nose in front of the verticle, so that he is a bit more free to balance himself. I did say that I thought he was a lovely horse! Are we not supposed to give an honest reply when one is asked? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[cortez]

Hey Muley, it's ok.

It's the positive and negative responses that help us all learn. ANY opinion is valuable as long as it is not mean spirited and none have been so far.

I know Coppelia is very interested in what everyone has to say and she does not get discouraged or disgruntled in the least. She would not open herself up to such a discussion if she was not ready for the good......and the bad.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Smart Alec]

I am new to dressage (from Hunter background) andI've been doing so much reading and watching etc. and I think the one thing that 'bothers' me about how Anky's horses look, is that the neck is just a little too tight and the face is behind the verticle like ^] instead of ^\. ^=horse's ear.
From what I've learned, it seems the horse needs some freedom in the neck and head to be able to move forward freely. Is the fact that she is constricting the head and neck slightly what is 'deep'? Please don't be offended, I think she is a beautiful rider, but it does appear she doesn't follow classical dressage in these photos? Anyone who can explain---please do! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Velvet]

When you ride deep, the horse learns to stretch over the topline and round in the front to complete the "bouncing ball" effect through the back...and naturally wants to stay rounded in the front as well. So, there's no "restriction."

[This message was edited by Velvet on Sep. 27, 2001 at 01:11 PM.]

[Smart Alec]

Sorry, still confused...I know...it is a feel not a description but I am curious. okay, so the horse is stretching and rounding....down around the bit? Why couldn't she just let him have that extra inch or two? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[suzy]

You must be kidding. I *know* better than to venture over there and discuss deep. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I've said it before: Deep cannot be explained on a bulletin board. You simply have to ride with someone who can teach you the correct method of doing it. The feel you get when you do it right will answer all of your questions. With my own horse, it gets him very loose in his back leading to schwung. When I go from deep to "up," I suddenly feel tremendous amplitude (or expression) to his trot or canter. Everything is soft, he is much freer in his shoulders, and springs off the ground. It's not a technique that riders should try to replicate without really good instruction. It's also something I use in short pieces, not for an entire ride.

What I've observed over the past two years are that there are two camps -- the first camp that wants to understand and possibly utilize this technique, and the second camp which is terrified of change and anything that doesn't conform with what the old dead guys said. Let's face it, though, the old dead guys have been wrong before. Furthermore, our modern day sport horses are conformed and move differently than the horses of 300-400 years ago.

These discussions really never go anywhere, so I think I'll politely slink back into the background. The rest of you can have at it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P.S. Are you some kind of twisted masochist, mona, doing battle with that crowd!? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You did good, IMO.

[This message was edited by suzy on Sep. 27, 2001 at 03:26 PM.]

[Dry Clean Only]

Here is how I see it. Riding deep is somewhat like a person doing 'cat stretches' - get down on your hands and knees, drop your chin and rock back a bit, lifting and rounding up your back. Feel the stretch on all of the big muscles in your back?? This is what riding deep does for the horse.

-Lexi (who knows better than to try doing 'deep' herself!!)

[judy]

Mona posted a link to a website that was discussing 'deep'. It had what I thought were some good explanations. Check out her posts on the previous page of this thread to find it.

[Coreene]

So there you go. Totally behind you in this one, Velvet!

[Cosmo]

I have been reading this thread with interest (well morbid curiousity). I will use 'deep' in warm up and I can put the horses head where ever I want also.
But in my Very humble opinion, the horse that is photographed is not 'deep', he is on the forehand and overbent. Can you see the rider tipped forward on to her crotch, and the way her elbows have come back behind her, she is being propelled forward by her horse. She has no connection in her seat, it is all in the hands. If this horse didn't have a flash on then its mouth would probably be open (you can see some parting already). This is not a good photo of how deep is ridden. This exact observation is why riding deep cannot be explained over the internet and even through photos. Why? Because of the above photos very reason. This horse is a lovely horse, and perhaps this was a bad moment...
I willnot go into the mechanics of riding deep, because as others have said it is a feel and should not be used for more than a training tool for a few moments, and then you ride back in a normal 'frame' (whatever that may be on the horse you are riding).
I donot, however, advocate deep frame work for horses, that cannot show forward impulsion first, and cannot show reaching for the bridle first. Only after they have established the basics for going forward, will the use of this method help. I have however used it on some hotter types of horses, and then used it on a smallish circle to get them back to me, incorporating the use of major half halts as well. I have found that this has soften their back to become a bit more responsive to me.
Now as for the question is it okay to train a horse to be constantly broken at the 3rd or 4th verebrae? No never. And there is no but in that sentence. If you are training that way for an hour a day, then that is not dressage training, you may as well put a western saddle on and start doing western pleasure (no offence to western people out there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). Think of deep as an exercise, like you would use spirals, shoulder fore, shoulder in and leg yeild. Don't think of it as a method. It is not a method, it is an exercise. If we think of it that way, then we can go back to the age old saying, get taught it before you try it. I know that I wouldnot attempt to train a green (green being not knowing much, not young) horse using deep if I had not been taught how to correctly feel it. I was lucky to have a great instructor who successfully ( I think) taught me the way to use this exercise.

We need to move away from the thought that we would ride this way all the time, and more towards this is just an exercise. Now there is some discussion as why we would do leg yeild (head away from the direction the horse is moving) when we want to teach a horse to basically always follow the direction of its nose... but again leg yeild CAN be a useful tool...

So this debate goes on and on... it will go on for as long as this world stays as one.

If you don't think it is a good exercise, then don't use it. But don't stand back and criticise others for using it, particularly those that use is to its full effectiveness. If you have tried it and not liked it, that is great that you came to your own conclusion through feeling it first hand. But for those that do like using it, don't get caught up in it. Do it for short periods, and use it as it was meant to be used.

JMHO.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cosmo

"Acceptance of the bit happens in the haunches, not in the mouth."
Dr. Thomas Ritter

www.geocities.com/bluejaystables (http://www.geocities.com/bluejaystables)

[magnum]

Suzy: Yeah, you'd think I was out killing babies or something to read the abrupt responses. Thanks, too, Judy,for your support.

Oh, who said that about the world being flat? That's PRECIOUS, to be sure!!

Anywho.... if dressage is not our religion, what kinda DQ's are we anyway? I say: OPEN MINDED!!!

Oh, dear, there's fodder for another thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[coppelia]

Well, I must say it's been interesting reading the responses to the picture I posted. I'm not offended by anything anyone has said... I knew I'd get a can of whoop-ass opened on me, and I'm actually suprised at some of the nicer things that have been said.

I would like to say a few things however - not as an excuse, but as an explanation. First of all, I am doing a RISING TROT. Maybe I'm a bit of a moron, but I can't get my arse out of the saddle without a little forward momentum... I've tried and come crashing down on the saddle when I sit again. I don't ride Colossus (or any other horse) that deep/low when I'm doing a sitting trot. Neither of us are ready for that.

Also, I know he's way behind the vertical. I guess I wasn't clear before, but that's not where I want him. I like his neck position, but not his nose. If his nose were more forward in this picture, I'd be thrilled. I don't encourage this position.

Where are my elbows supposed to be? I thought it was all a straight line - ears, shoulders, elbows, hips, etc. (having said that, what the hell am I doing with my legs?!) I know I'm not perfect, but should I be straightening my arms? I'm asking seriously here.

I'm going to post some more pictures on the 4 yr old critique thread, so as to not clutter up this one. But please come share your opinions - maybe other riders out there can learn from my atrocities. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know people get frustrated by the crazy new-age deep vs. Old Dead experts discussion, but this has really been a very positive and constructive thread in my opinion. I'm hoping people are enjoying it.

[muley]

I have enjoyed this thread and have learned from it too! Thanks to all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[bonnzilla]

now you guys REALLY have me wondering. I have learned under my trainer to use deep to unlock my horses back. The schwung I feel when this happens is INCREDIBLE.

But maybe that's all the devil in disguise. Will I pay the price later in that my horse is RUINED! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I mean just because something FEELS right and FEELS good doesn't mean it's correct. Maybe it's all just another DRAWREIN type quick fix which helps momentarily, but in the long run will cause my horse to break at the 3rd vertebrae and turn into a donkey?

Oh well. Guess I will just have to see "later"...

Will report in a few years. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bONdoesn'thinkdeepismajic

[suzy]

>>>Also, I know he's way behind the vertical. I guess I wasn't clear before, but that's not where I want him. I like his neck position, but not his nose. If his nose were more forward in this picture, I'd be thrilled. I don't encourage this position.

The good thing about this is that the fix is easy. If you were to reach your hands 2-3 inches further forward towards his mouth and slightly down, he would open up through the throatlash area more and not be so far behind the vertical.

>Where are my elbows supposed to be? I thought it was all a straight line - ears, shoulders, elbows, hips, etc. (having said that, what the hell am I doing with my legs?!) I know I'm not perfect, but should I be straightening my arms? I'm asking seriously here.

First, your hands. As I said above, reach a little further forward, but also reach slightly down and you will have a perfect line from your elbow through your wrist to the bit. In this photo, your hands are a wee bit too high. Your upper body is tipped slightly forward which has caused your lower leg to slide a bit further back then they should be. Not sure whether this is just the moment in which the photo was taken or something that you need to work on. At least it's an easy fix. Concentrate on keeping your shoulder blades behind your hips.

You are a nice rider, and the "flaws" I have pointed out are minor and easy to fix. Every rider should be so lucky.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Smart Alec]

judy- thanks for the link---it was great to read through.
Also, thanks to cosmo, great post--very well said.
For myself, I find this excercise very interesting...would I use it on my horse? hmmm...at this time no. He is still very green --we are in the forward/contact stage... and without someone who really knows what they are doing (Anky, want to ride Smart Alec?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) I know I don't understand it enough to really make it work.
Also, I am sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, while this excercise appears to work for many of your horses, its hard not to be cautious with newer methods/excercises. There are many gimmicks out there (not that this is one) but its hard to know what is and what isn't. ODG methods are tried and true, they have been developed over so many yrs. with the art and science of the natural horse in mind. Riding deep may be a real breakthrough, but everything takes time, so if it really is a great new method that works...well, then it will come around to more people. Again thanks Cosmo, you really said it all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jen West]

the horse should be paying attention to the rider. By the time a horse reaches ANY "Prix" level in dressage spooking in competition should be a non-issue. Classical training ensured that it was. The whole PURPOSE of having a horse between the hand and the leg is so that it will not shy. If the horses are shying they are not between the hand and the leg.

Also, nobody cares to comment on horses putting in TWO extra beats with their supposedly engaged hind ends?

The arguments being made in favor of the "new" style of riding "deep" are the EXACT same arguments made for riding AQHA pleasure horses with their noses on the ground. This is the new style, they use their backs better, they move "prettier", Mr latida Big Silver Buckle knows more than you because what have you won? What was being done to pleasure horses ruined the "industry" for many, and it is only beginning to recover. What is being done in dressage is ruining it for many, and it will hit the industry hard soon. Watch.

Any time the modern "ideals" deviate from that which is classically correct you know they are doomed to fall by the wayside. Those that take the time and effort to train a horse correctly are rewarded by having a correctly trained horse.

[Jen West]

ain't gonna fly with me. Stirrups wer not a European invention and those that did originate the stirrup rode fairly short. Jumping leaning back on the horse's flanks was more of the "new" thing than riding short and with the horse. Just because western Europeans created the new leaning back long-stirrup style of jumping a few hundred years back does not make it "classical." It just proves that some fads take longer to get over than others. *s*

[atw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen West:
that "deep" is really just hanging on the reins at the upper levels?


It's not that he could have just "lowered" his croup more. It's that he was not engaged, connected, and "through."

It's wonderful that she speaks well to the crowd, but so does Monty Roberts and he's the biggest charleton there is.

I personally consider riding a horse cranked in to be, well, cruel. My impulse when I see people riding the way Ankey does is to go grab the reins and yank them out about a foot. If the horse is that far behind vertical the rider is NOT using her seat or her legs adequately. Can't be. If she were the horse's head would be elevated and he'd be stepping forward underneath himself. Short reins and a cranked in head block forward impulse before it is even generated. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
just curious..how many world class dressage events have you aced?

[Cosmo]

and I am no Anky, but I'll ride him!! lol

Jen as for spooking being a non issue, unless I am mistaken it takes a certain amount of pizazz and attitude to make a GP horse or as you said it a'prix' anything horse. With pizazz and attitude comes a look at me, and in return there is OMG what the heck am I looking at!!

I don't think that anyone riding that level wants a totally quiet horse (not saying that being really focused doesn't lead to a 'quiet' horse, or that quiet is bad). I haven't seen that the classical methods, will make your horse any less spooky or whatever, just miles and miles and miles will do that. And even then no horse is totally spookless... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif JMVHO...

I cannot comment on the jumper thing, I have been out of that for quiet a while, through no fault of my own though! lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the it being the exact same arguements as the AQHA horse people, well I can't really see that. There are many and yes I will say it again MANY AQHA western pleasure people out there that donot and will not tolerate that type of style. If you read at all about that and what the judges and what the trainers really think, then you will understand that it is not very well welcomed, although some of the bigger judges have gotten lost in the whole thing. So I cannot see the correlation at all..

That being said, and I am sure you will disagree, 'deep' is not really a fad, it is an overexageration of some of the older style exercises. I don't believe for a minute that this was just thought up in the last 25 years.

Anyways, I think like every exercise it can be helpful. Just to varying degrees and moving from FDO and l&l and deep. All together it works, and again as long as the end is not compromised (which we all know takes a he!! of a long time to get there) then using whatever (whether it be deep or leg yeild **yikes**) to help you along the way to get over a stumbling block surely shouldn't be crucified, as long as it doesn't take away the horse's opinion and voice!! And as far as I have see deep used, it hasn't taken away their voice. I donot see ropes tieing them down there, but skillfull riders working their horses round and down.

JMVVVHO!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Keep up the good work guys, by discussing we all learn.

Cosmo

"Acceptance of the bit happens in the haunches, not in the mouth."
Dr. Thomas Ritter

www.geocities.com/bluejaystables (http://www.geocities.com/bluejaystables)

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen West:
That's all. Maybe she ISN'T pulling. Not worth arguing. She still needs to grow some guts and give her horse his head. It is not that the flexion itself is evil, it is that it is a sign that the impul;sion generated is not matching the contraint taken by the rider. If a horse is overbent he is conclusively being ridden front to back. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, riding deep is not worth arguing, but it is always worth debating and discussing. Let me just say this, and I do mean this in the nicest spirit: Until we ride at Anky's level, and until we have ridden and worked with the horses she rides, we really have no place to be so critical.

Riding deep means different things to many different people. Some horses fare better than others. I always try to do what is best for the horse and if riding him deep is what is called for, then thats what I do, but believe me, just because a horse is ridden deep or appears to be over flexed (behind the vertical), that does not always mean horse is being ridden incorrectly.

Riding deep is not something one does ALL the time, it's like a tool used to help and encourage horse to use his hind end more efficiently as well as develop a correct top line. Done correctly and with tact, the tool doesn't have to be used all the time, just now and then.......

Riding deep is not for everyone or every horse.

[suzy]

>>>the horse should be paying attention to the rider. By the time a horse reaches ANY "Prix" level in dressage spooking in competition should be a non-issue. Classical training ensured that it was. The whole PURPOSE of having a horse between the hand and the leg is so that it will not shy. If the horses are shying they are not between the hand and the leg.

Don't agree. A horse is a horse first and foremost and don't ever forget it. It doesn't matter what level of training they reach, there are still going to be frightening things that happen that the horse will react to instinctively. Yes, you can minimize a spook, but you can't always get rid of it altogether.

Podhajsky spoke (in one of his books) about giving a demo and having a helicopter land next to him. He Halted and said that it was all he could do to keep the horse in one place. He did, but he also didn't try to perform any further movements since he knew it would be a struggle. So, here you have one of the acclaimed masters on a GP level Lipizzan doing his darnedest to control the spook.

Horses spook. Plain and simple. You can limit the spook, but you can't train it out of them. If you could, they would become extinct pretty fast.

[Maria]

At the risk of sounding like I stutter. Suzy, I admire your tenacity.

[suzy]

Is tenacity just another way of saying "stupidity?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wait until I get going on the "blooming necks!" hehehehe!

[Cosmo]

no not stupidity!! lol.. faaarrrr from it!!

"tenacious: persistent in maintaining or adhering to something valued or habitual"

Nice quality to have... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cosmo

"Acceptance of the bit happens in the haunches, not in the mouth."
Dr. Thomas Ritter

www.geocities.com/bluejaystables (http://www.geocities.com/bluejaystables)

[suzy]

Thanks Cosmo. Does that give me permission to launch off on the neck topic? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzy:

Don't agree. A horse is a horse first and foremost and don't ever forget it. It doesn't matter what level of training they reach, there are still going to be frightening things that happen that the horse will react to instinctively. Yes, you can minimize a spook, but you can't always get rid of it altogether.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the above statement. A horse is a horse; no matter how well schooled or how much mileage a horse has, a spook or startle is going to happen. If rider is paying close attention to horse the subleties of spooks can be felt before they come to fruition. And rider can react accordingly. Spooking, startling and other horse reactions to various environmental stimuli can be minimized, but we still get down to the same road: A horse is a horse; we as riders must know how to deal with their various and assundry reactions.

[suzy]

Show me a horse without a spook, and I'll show you a horse without a pulse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ninja]

LOL Suzy! good one! J West are you telling all of us that Rembrant wasn't well trained?? because he had one heck of a spook! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Robbierox]

I found this on another board (sorry COTH) and it may help some people to understand "deep" better. I really like the way she explains the workings of the underside in conjunction with the topline of the horse. She also states the same type of work what John Lyons advocates - lowering a horses head and neck to relax them. Like I said before....the world used to be flat....

In the KWPN Magazine �In de Strengen� of 27th september I saw a very interesting interview with Physiotherapist Solange Schrijer. She explains why she thinks deep work benefits the horse. Some highlights:
(exuse me for my english, I'm certainly not an english translater If you don't understand things, please ask.)
...Fysical and Mental condition of the horse is of great importance for the ability to perform. ... The fysical consequences of stress can be explained by looking at the nervesystem. Simply explained, the nervesystem has a �arbitrary� and an �involuntary� part. The involuntary part arranges certain bodyfunctions like temperature, muscle tension in rest, metabolism etc. A horse trained under stress is experiencing a constant increase of the activity of the involuntary nervesystem. He is constantly in a Fight or Flight stage.

...By riding a horse low and round, you invite him among other things trough his nervesystem to relax more in his body. This is the opposite posture of the flightposture of the horse, which is overstretching. By riding a horse round and deep, you bring the head and neck down and you stretch his topline; the neck- and backmuscles and the loins. By riding like this you can make a contribution to the fysical and mental well being of the horse.

...In the end you are searching for a balance between the contraction of the bottom-line (bellymuscles) and topline (backmuscles). A horse has to shorten its bellymuscles to use its back properly.

...Riding deep askes for an adjustment in �thinking� of the belly- to the back-muscles. The contraction of the backmuscles overstretches the back which causes hollowness and a hindleg that stays behind. Contraction of the bottomline muscles (the belly and hip-muscles) make that we get everything we want out of good training, a swinging loose back in dressage and a nice bascule when jumping. The engagement of the hindleg is directly related to the contraction of the bottomline. The use of the bottomline-muscles is because of that very important.

I thought this was pretty interesting and more food for thought.....

Bye Yvonne

[Maria]

And another thing about "The Spook".

GP dressage horses are fit. Fit I tell you. Fit sometimes may lead to a bit of expression.

:rolleyes

[Velvet]

Oh no! LOL

Hey, and I have a green horse to prove it! The stud bolted on Sunday when he was suprised, and he isn't ridden deep...yet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Heck, I've ridden top FEI horses that were trained and shown in europe by top riders (not my horses...they were owned by someone else and I got to ride them), and these were riders who did not adhere to the "deep" method. Well, some were quiet and some were spooky. It has NOTHING to do with the type of training. (Granted, more riding in stressful situations usually makes a horse more quiet in the long run...but not always!)

[suzy]

Yvonne's description is good. I'd add one thing. When horses are deep (in the good sense - ridden actively from behind into the bridle as opposed to having their heads pulled in and their hindlegs inactive) - the withers lift up and the base of the horse's neck "blooms." (Hey, I warned you I was going to get into those "bloomin necks!"). This is something you can actually see when sitting on the horse and is one of the elements of real "throughness."

As the horse's musculature develops and he learns to lift his withers and keep them lifted while bringing his hindlegs under and sitting, you can then ask him to bring his poll up so that it is the highest point without risking the withers dropping and the horse hollowing his back. I see far too many pictures of horses whose polls are the highest point but to the detriment of everything else. Poll up is last on my list of things to do when asking for collection. Start with active hindlegs, good connection into the bridle, swinging back, and withers up - then bring the poll up. To bring the poll up first invites the horse to drop his withers and hollow his back.

P.S. Just love it when Velvet has to agree. muhahahaha. And Maria, is this tenacious enough for ya?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Robbierox]

Atta girl Suzy!! I completely agree with you!

[suzy]

But if you have a lick of sense, you will duck, run for cover, and change your identity. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

Then you just stand out in the middle of the courtyard and dare people to "fire" at you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Cactuskate]

Reminded me of a H/J clinic I rode in years ago. Some of our horses were a bit too fresh for the outing. One let go with a "Calgary Stampede" quality buck, unseating the rider rather firmly in the sand, then proceeded to gallop the arena. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

My kind soul school horse humped his back and spun right out from under me. I am now in the dirt. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Another rider very quickly and gracefully dismounted as she saw the writing on the wall, much sooner that most of us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

There was one schoolhorse that just stood in the middle of the arena, didn't move a muscle. The clinician commented, "Now that is the one that would have been eaten by the cougar." /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Then informed those of us that "dismounted", we owed him a bottle of wine each. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Point being they all have some "spook" in them, they should. It is their instinct. The task seems to be the level of focus we instill in them to continue with their task at hand. I always appreciate a good horse that wants to save his own butt. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[suzy]

I totally forgot to address someone's concern about riders pulling their horses into a deep outline, which is a legitimate and real concern IMO. When deep is ridden correctly (emphasis on "correctly"), the rider PUSHES the horse up into the bridle; he does not PULL him into an outline. When the horse reaches the moment of stepping under, shortening his underline, lengthening his topline, sitting down, lifting his withers, and truly yielding to the bit, the rider GIVES on both reins simultaneously so that the horse has nothing to hang on and will move in self-carriage. That moment of giving is a huge piece of the deep puzzle, and if the rider doesn't give, he will end up with a horse that's heavy in the bridle and not carrying himself. That loose rein stage can last for one stride or 5-6 strides. In these moments, the rider will see the neck bloom as I described before and the horse actually feels wider and bigger all over. It's as though he's puffed up (says suzy hiding her bicycle pump).

Anyway, it is a training method that I would NOT recommend anyone trying on their own because the timing of the aids is tricky and so incredibly important to riding a horse deep correctly. It's also way too easy to think that your horse is deep just because his neck is down and his head is in. This is the smallest and least significant aspect of riding deep. It's the underline of the horse, the activity of the hindlegs, and the placement of the withers that are the highest priorities.

[cortez]

How exactly can a rider "pull" their horse into a deep frame? Certainly it conjures up an image of a rider with their hands down around their ankles pulling the horse deep. The only thing I have seen when a rider takes the "big pull" is a horse suck their neck in short and certainly not get deep.

When I was reschooling my crazy TB who only knew the h/j rings the first thing my coach made me do was put him deep. Granted me in my most hunterish form plunked him long and low and on his forehand. I was quickly reprimanded and told to "ride" the horse and make him get his hind legs moving up under himself. WOW, what a feeling! But there is no way I could have pulled him deep, he would have just flicked his head in the air or sucked his chin up and into his chest. There is so much softness associated with this style of schooling.

[suzy]

"Pull" was probably the wrong word -- "manipulate" by sawing on the mouth (side to side pulling) would be a better way to describe how some people get their horses' heads down. And that's precisely the problem -- they are focusing on the head and no other part of the horse's anatomy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But, who can know for sure -- maybe they're contemplating the horse's belly button, too.

[Velvet]

"shuttling" the bit??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[cortez]

My horse doesn't have much of a bellybutton but he does have a little scurfy spot /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Maria]

Belly Button Lint!!!! ewwwwwwwwwwwww /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Chaser]

Hhmm. I'm not sure if what I do is "deep" or "long and low". I hope you don't mind me going on a bit about this and what I try. I would like some feedback. It feels right but another viewpoint is always interesting. My mare, when I got her, used to go with an almost horizontal nose and a shuffling trot. My aim has been to lengthen the neck and obtain a proper communication with her mouth instead of the dead feel that used to be there. We have come a long way, but still have very far to go! At last we have a proper trot!

My mare stretches to the bit, lowered head/neck, my hands are still, just a little vibration/feel in the reins (always within the contact)and a light connection with her mouth. My legs feel as if they are wrapped under her and she is lifting her belly. They wrap under, I think, because she is lifting her belly, and not vice versa. I confess that I have my hands lightly next to her neck to give a "datum point" so as to avoid inadvertantly pulling back, but yet not yielding too much if she asks for a little more rein (if I don't want to give her any at this stage). There is no force or rigidity in the contact. Her back gets broader and lifts. I haven't noticed what her neck looks like...I'll observe next time. Her poll is probably about wither height (I'll look next time).

I don't need to pull or see-saw into this way of going. I ask by small (fractions of millimetre) movements of whichever rein "works" at that time, with supporting legs.

I did need to show her how to do it (and learn myself from my excellent instructor) initially by working on a circle and taking/giving on the inside rein within the (light) contact and elastically, so she stretched into the outside rein on the "give" whilst keeping the inside contact. Of course, legs are required also, inside to outside. When I got this stretch I would keep my hands still, legs on softly, until she lifted her head, and then I'd ask again. We were eventually able to go with a long neck, stretching down, with a light contact fairly even on both reins and keep this through a change of rein whilst maintaining balance. I find it hard work myself and it requires a lot of concentration!!

Once we could do this, I found I could get the stretching to the bit within a shorter frame, but still long enough to lengthen her neck. I now find that she comes into a higher frame when I take up the reins, without me asking, and without shortening the neck and my contact/feel has improved immensely.

My instructor is wonderful. I was at a loss as to how to proceed when I first got my mare, but now we are on our way. Please don't tell me what I'm doing is wrong! well, only if it is... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[suzy]

I imagine that there is more than one way to achieve deep, but what has worked best for me is this. I place my hands on either side of my horse's neck below the withers. They must rest there quietly; no pulling, no manipulation of ANY kind -- absolutely still. I then drive the horse up into the bridle. He has to really step under and go into the bridle.

Typical evasions are swinging the quarters to the side or coming against the hand. If he swings his quarters to the left, I position them to the right. Always ask the horse to do the opposite of what he's offering. It's what Jane Savoie refers to as benign antagonism. If he comes against your hand, resist the temptation to do anything more than keep them in one place. If he tries to back up, really drive him forward -- tap with your spurs or whip; whatever works best on your particular horse. The instant you feel him yield in his poll, reach both hands forward 2-3 inches and let the reins loop. This is where you feel his withers and back lift, and he will be light to your leg aids.

I work on transitions in this outline and use a stilled seat to collect the gaits, then open my hips to lengthen. Any time he comes against my hands, I put them on the side of his neck and push him back up into the bridle. The instant he yields, I push my hands forward together and the same amount. The give is the most important moment. Riding the horse deep reveals probably better than anything else whether or not the horse is sucked back in front of his withers.

When the horse becomes really through in this deep outline, you will be astounded at how much easier it is for you to maintain an elegant, around the horse position.

I wouldn't recommend anyone running out and trying this without a knowledgeable instructor.

[coppelia]

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/europe/2001/gdf.html

This just in! Discussion & demonstration without frying pans or catfights! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Velvet]

But I did have to pull out a quote that I thought was great fodder for the classical vs competitive arguments we have out here all the time:

Rafael Soto from the Jerez School held the audience captive with his account of how the Andalusians progressed from "high school" exponents to realistic competitors over just a few years. He said they learnt from many people, were humble about their naivety concerning the basics and said the competitions were one step beyond the classical dressage of the school.

[AWIP]

Interesting ...

what you were describing is what I have stumbled onto with my horse sort of on my own. Its worked quite well so far to point out the moving forward and being light and round (where I instantly give and let her alone) is infinitely preferably to bracing against the bit and chucking her head in the air where I have been resisting in almost exactly that manner and driving her up into the bit.

Suddenly she's choosing to be round and carry her self much more automatically. (trust me, you can't bully her into ANYTHING)

Well, except for this week, but neither of us feel like doing a thing...

[canyonoak]

Thoughts( ok, opinions) on deep, Global Dressage Forum (wish I coulda been there) and so on. I found this threaad interesting, and thought Id jump in.


..And at this Global Dressage Forum, Erc Lette
(O judge, former head of FEI, now Swedish team trainer)said:

"It is not what is done but how. Bad riding kills the horse, whether he is deep or high."


EGG-ZACKLY.

What makes deep work for Anky/others is:

one. Sjef-or-equivalent on the ground
two. TIMING and talent and experience/knowledge quotient.
three. the specific horses s/he chooses to ride.


OK, you can change 1, 2 and 3 around--but you can NOT remove any one of these.

Try this perspective:

Let's say, for the moment, that deep has been around forever. It is a means of momentary control-- the horse locks in its back/jaw/brain--and deep is a way to ask it to restore its focus back on the rider.
After all, in deep, the horse is basically looking at its weenie.
This has to be true, because a horse 'on the bit' in the accepted sense is, basically, looking at the ground in front of it. One of the best short descriptions Ive heard of dressage is that the horses have to accept being 'introverted' in personality because they are not looking out (extroverted) as do jumping and eventing horses.

Thats why martingales were invented--for control.

OK..so when the rider/person on ground feels that the horse is losing focus and therefore losing rhythm and therefore losing ridability--a re-balance move is called for, and the horse is asked for an obedience move--lower the head.

Lower the head is just about the first obedience move ANY horse ought to be/is taught. It is what a horse does to show submission to another horse, and hopefully, the human handler.

In lowering the head, of course the entire balance is affected. And of course--one cannot and does not keep the horse there, it is not healthy mentally or physically for the horse.


From this perspective, it is not deep that accomplishes anything much--it is what the rider does immediately AFTER asking for this obedience move,.

And it is THIS moment or two in time that determines whether or not deep is going to actually accomplish anything positive.

IF the hind legs lose rhythm or energy--then deep has accomplished a negative and it is in the horse's memory banks.

IF the horse does not stay through in the circle of aids, then ditto.

IF the horse cannot maintain focus, rhythm and balance during the following of the rein, then ditto.

Why wasnt deep used a lot by people like Watjen, Podhajsky, Klimke, Theodorescu, Wahl, Andersen, Chammartin and whoever else?

Well..they ALL use forward-down, but the horse-rider ratio in terms of size and outsized athleticism was very different for these people.

Deep became popular because the horses are always being asked for more athleticism, but the riders are female and lighter..The playing field has to be levelled somehow, so deep--which has been around forever--came more to the forefront.

It is just it went from a straight obedience move that any sane rider uses when necessary, to some kind of training technique on its own.

OK..I think that says what i am trying to say..

and for the record: I have trained a horse thru GP and coached riders at FEI and been eye on the ground for some rather hefty FEI rider/trainers...and I try never to stop learning.
It has been my privilege to talk to and gain insights from many horsemen, in interview/clinic/etc.

cheers to all

[Kathy Johnson]

This is a pain, but if you can get there, you can see a video of Anky schooling deep.

Go to www.saddletude.com (http://www.saddletude.com)

Then, at the bottom of the page go to "dressage" then "Anky warmup."

I don't care what medals she's won, I NEVER want to ride like that. Every other step she's way behind the vertical, her hands are high, her feet are in her horse's shoulder. Her horse is disunited in passage, his tail is rampant, and his nose is on his chest. It looks like saddleseat.

To each her own. Anky is a master of what she does. She is capable of of bringing the horse back up to an appropriate frame and winnng gold medals. I think she is a phenomenal rider. But she is not a role model for me.

"Deep became popular because the horses are always being asked for more athleticism, but the riders are female and lighter..The playing field has to be levelled somehow, so deep--which has been around forever--came more to the forefront."

I read a comment like this somewhere else and find it extremely sexist and offensive. In riding, women have always been able to compete with men--it was the first Olympic discipline in which men and women competed together. This type of statement implies that riding takes strength, weight and force. That's just WRONG!

Too bad there aren't some North American riders with the same name value or "credentials" to present in such venues.

All that's gold doesn't glitter.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[This message was edited by Kathy Johnson on Oct. 08, 2001 at 08:34 AM.]

[canyonoak]

If one goes back and looks at the make-up of European dressage teams...there is a distinct shift from all-male teams to all-female teams or nearly all-female teams.

if one goes back and looks at the horses that made up the dressage teams, there is a distinct shift from big, heavier horses to lighter, more TB-influenced horses.

This is true for show jumping as well.

The sport of dressage used to be a world where cavalry-trained and influenced riders-who-had-become-trainers showed what they could do with a horse. That horse was not bred specifically for dressage. It was a horse of some talent--or it was the horse that was available.

These days, we have horses that are bred out the wazoo for specific purpose.
The riders at the top are professional riders.
The most successful have a superb eye on the ground as part of the integral team that produces such success.

There was a time when the top trainers rode the horses and then 'produced' the rider and horse at competitions. If you want names, email me privately: Im not going to produce tempests in teapots here.

But it is not so long ago that Rehbein once finished the changes on a horse, admonished the rider to NOT practice them, but just go in and ride the test.

We have moved on; the top riders actually ride and train the horses, developing that special timing partnership that is required for performance these days.

In no way was I making a sexist remark.
It is a reality that most riders these days are women. It is a reality that most trainers are men.
(I am talking about the top of the tree here.)
It is a reality that the horses have changed.

It is a reality that asking a horse to lower his neck and follow the rein connection has been around for so long as people have ridden and thought about it. It is a reality that for the connection to be true, the horse must ALSO work in proper balance and rhythm wherever one has asked the front end to stay.

It is a reality that the ideas as to what composes athleticism in performance have altered somewhat.


I agree that no one should really try to do what Anky does. In various interviews, Sjef Janssen has said over and over , he does not enjoy teaching--because a talent like Anky's is so rare; because the timing to feel and know what to do with his ideas --to sense what to do on one's own-- take too long to develop and most riders cannot develop them.

There is a view at the top, that some tension is all right in the development of the horse. That this tension will dissipate as the horse becomes stronger in mind and body.

I have no answer to this.

I am small. I find tension difficult to ride through. I find it difficult to get the horse to truly use its back and stop leg-moving.

I have seen Anky and Sjef work. There is no doubt in my mind that extreme deep, rollkur, what ever you want to call it, is a control move.

If the formula is 90% seat, 8% leg, 2% hand...and Anky or whomever is using her seat max effort--and geting no repsonse...then the playing field must be levelled.

She is not pulling those horses' heads...they go where she asks them to go. That is why and how they come up again.HOW she trains them to accept this--aha...that is timing and talent and knowledge and experience. And frankly--horses will do justy about anything a human being asks them to do, if it is explained to the horse logically. Certainly, I think it is much harder to get a horse to jump off a high diving board then stick its head between its knees.

I do not pretend to understand deep very well, and I do not use it as part of a day's schooling. Except on one horse (out of 9 or 10) and I have misgivings every day that I seem to need to do it on him. I accept that there is a problem somewhere I am not addressing. But after he is deep for a bit, his gaits are sparkly and he is through.

The reality is..when my favorite clinicans (neither is a fan of deep)come, they usually make me work him LONGER in flat, forward leg-yield, sh-in, etc etc..and this produces the same result: he gets to using his back.
It takes longer their way and I am a sloth sometimes when it comes to self-discipline(<G>..

When Anky says she is 'flying' on one of her GP horses..I am sure she is. Those are strong,responsive athletes that she and Sjef pick out and like. During a performance, those ponies seem to understand and accept, that so many 'tape-loops' of deep have been repeated, that the suggestion of deep (watch Anky's left hand on Bonfire) is enough for them to stay focused and responsive..Others also use deep--in fact, I venture to say that nearly everyone uses deep some of the time. It is a TOOL, not a be-all and end-all.It is just--as I have said--it is a tool that has suddenly become a 'technique'.
No one seems to attach nearly as much significance to Anky's seat or Isabell's seat or their phenomenal timing.
That is because anyone can 'see' and therefore understand the horse's head going down..but it is difficult to see and therefore understand the rest of the technique being used.

You can train a horse to piaffe when he hears you hum Yankee Doodle Dandy but it is not very useful in the show ring--you will lose 2 points at the least.

The above is a quote. here is the other part of the quote:

If you dont like what Sjef and Anky do, then train classically and get out there and beat them.

Those are not my words and not my challenge. It was said to me in a round robin discussion ,years ago, about the non-classic elements that were seeping in to international competition.

Dr. Klimke sneered and called it 'pattern riding' and felt that dressage was getting to the point where riders felt (correctly) that they could not afford to make a mistake. Deep does help limit mistakes: the horse becomes more obedient.

When Dr. Klimke died, he was involved in trying to rectify this.

That discussion is still ongoing.

cheers,

[Velvet]

You go away for a few days and look at what happens...everyone starts publishing novels out here! What's up with that? Are you all trying to steal suzy's cheap tiara? (We know that no one could ever steal mine...it's now permanently imbedded in my head after my "crimson stain on the wall" experience last week. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[Jen West]

precisely what I do with a RAIL HORSE- ie, a horse whose forward impulse is to my economic advantage to squelch. Hallefreakinlujah. You are mainstreaming "the beast". Be proud. You are bringing dressage closer to "the masses." Soon there will be no discernible difference between the Miller's Under Saddle Futurity winner at the Congress and the World Cup Dressage Finalist. Is that the ideal for which you strive? If so, zieg heil.

[Jen West]

sorry that you are so narrow-minded and simple as to think that you are training horses that are never actually listening to you. A horse without a spook isn't a horse? Learn to ride.

[Jen West]

A helicopter landed beside Podjhasky and he kept the horse in one place. DUH!
Helicopter/jump crew. Helicopter/jump crew. Duh. I hope to freaking god that anyone showing a horse in a discipline created for the training of WAR HORSES can hold a horse to ground while an aircraft lands. *s* Too bad he's not alive today. If we had to count on US dressagers to win this one for us we'd just get the same excuses they've been giving all along. "Too distracting. "

[Jen West]

A horse ridden ON THE BIT is looking out before himself into the big world around him.

[This message was edited by Louise on Oct. 08, 2001 at 07:19 PM.]

[Jen West]

you are clearly consuming what the Taliban is being paid to not produce. Dressage horses are getting LIGHTER and more FINELY bred? Did you just roll off of Mars with the Yemenies sueing us for littering Mars with our space debris? Where in the World Cup have YOU been the last ten or more years? You did not notice the DEFINITE SHIFT from OTTs to WarmBloods? WELCOME to America!

DRESAGE HORSES in the US are definitely shifting toward the warmblood European horse. That would be a HEAVY CLUNKY dull-sided canon-pulling WARHORSE. ??? What am I missing in your proposition? How are dressage horses any lighter and more finely bred than they were one, three, five, or ten years ago?

[neighsayer]

I'm not trying to start nuclear war here but was wondering what your dressage credentials are? I understand from your posts that you use classical dressage methods to start your WP horses. To what level do you or have you ridden (not talking competition just the movements themselves).

You feel so strongly about deep and I'm trying to uderstand your prospective.

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Jen West]

I have eked a passage, piaffer and levade out of various and sundry ponies. I would roll over and die before I would allow a video of myself riding as poorly as the WC finalists do on OLN. I would shoot myself before I would pass off a six-beat gait as a piaffer or passage, and I have trained SEVERAL horses to do the smooth, effortless, non-jerky flying change so ubiquitous in the reining horse world.
My argument is not so much that I use dressage when training wp horses- that is a bit of a stretch- as it is that the TRAINING USED IN DRESSAGE TODAY is the same as what I use when I train a WP horse, which is the ANTI-THESIS of a dressage horse. Follow? I do NOT "use classical dressage principles" specifically in WP training; it is that WHAT IS BEING PASSED OFF AS CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is actually what WP trainers are using to get their horses to suck back. Got it?

Riding "deep", whatever, is what western pleasure trainers do to "punish" horses who exhibit too much impulsion for wp horses. HAH- and the "top" dressage riders use it to "control" their horses' spooking? Shake my head. In WP circles it is considered a "quick fix" for a charger, a "sure cure" for a speedster. Just drive the sob UP to the bit, curl his face around, and DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE. Know what ALWAYS happens when you let up? The horse shifts down more gears than a NASCAR going into the pits and just jjjjjoooooooggggggggssssssssssss along. Why do I think that riding this way is bad for dressage? Because, in every other discipline to which "deep" is applied, it is used to KILL impulsion.

[This message was edited by Jen West on Oct. 08, 2001 at 07:46 PM.]

[Duffy]

First, how the heck can someone weighing in at, what, 60 lbs soaking wet "ride deep"??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Personally, and I know I'm a hunter/eq person, I much preferred to watch Isabelle and Gigolo to Anky and Bonfire. Perhaps I just saw them at the end of his career, but they didn't give me the goosebumps I got from watching Isabelle and Gigolo. Bonfire looked choppy, (dare I say I agree with Jen here - looked like a few too many beats to me too at times), as well as uneven at times. Maybe it was at least in part because of his way of going, i.e., he is NOT the mover that Gigolo is. I'm sure he never was.

That said, I do think Anky looks beautiful on a horse and I'm sure she's a great dressage rider. I also think that having her at Spruce Meadows was a wonderful idea. And I have to disagree with whoever posted that The Schmoe family would come away noticing that perhaps the head/neck/croup/hocks were not "just so" and that they should not be told it's correct.

Oh, and HOW could anyone refer to Suzy as tenacious????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[canyonoak]

Jen West...a horse on the bit is most assuredly not looking proudly out at the world.

On the bit is artificial, and if a horse was on the bit in the real world, he would be someone's dinner.

he would also not be much fun to ride cross-country.

OTOH, as Dr. Klimke put it, "when the horse is truly 'on his own', then the rider know what it is to feel as a god."

As for your other posts...hmmm.

one. I dont think you read my post, just saw a few buzz words and took off a runnin'.

two. if you really think that Bonfire and Rusty and Gigolo and Rembrandt and Invasor all look pitiful, and their riders are so bad you would hate to be videoed riding as poorly...well...hmmm. Again. To compare any of these horses to western pleasure horses is silly.

I think it is hard to stay graceful under pressure. that is the point of competition.
it is why Oliveira didnt want to compete--because those pressures were not internal but external and he saw them as taking away from his goal to reach perfection.

athletic endeavor is not about perfection. it is about the best possible on a given day at a given moment.

if you dont like deep , then dont use it.

but that which we do not understand, we are condemned to either ridicule or remain afraid of.
Im trying to learn more about it, just as I like to learn about nearly anything that has to do with horses. I may learn something I don't want to use--but at least I will know WHY.

cheers,

Lita

[Chaser]

(Another long post I am afraid, but I find this topic interesting)

Jen West,thank you for your insight. I wasn't sure if I was riding deep, but from your description I am not (although I don't know how I would describe it, but then perhaps there doesn't need to be a name for everything!). (Perhaps "riding deep" means that the horse's neck is curled up?? which is the opposite to what I am trying to get). When my mare lifts her back as I described, she is light in hand but connected, balanced (certainly not heavy on her shoulders) and goes forwards willingly of her own accord. I certainly don't have to drive her or force her....I just stay in balance, central-feeling. If I waver for an instant and my weight goes forwards a fraction, she lifts her head and hollows. If I go behind (rarer for me) she shoots forwards and rushes. I need to maintain lateral position also. A difficult task all round. The key is my position. My horse tells me when it's right!

Which brings me to a point I have often wondered about. Why do so few instructors correct or develop the rider's positon? It is so crucial. My current instructor is constantly giving me feedback and correction. When I get in first with my observation that I have gone wrong and why, she is pleased because it shows I am paying attention! I don't think any of my previous instructors have made any but the most coarse corrections, if any at all. They spend all their time on the horse's way of going, but unless the rider is correct, the horse cannot possibly move properly, although their generous nature means they try. I am not a good rider by any means. It is a very long road, but I hope that at least I am striving to improve.

I am sorry that this post is too "me" oriented, but every lesson, and in many solo work sessions, I make an improvement, and it is so exciting for me to see how we are progressing. There aren't many people in my circle that understand what it means to me.

[KellyS]

I am also not trying to start a war here, but....

Jen West, why don't you post some pictures of yourself riding and showing us how to do the dressage movements better. Since all the pictures posted have been such a bad display of dressage, it would be a relief to see it done right.

I'm being completely serious :-)

[Maria]

Jen West, do you even ride dressage?

[suzy]

I now have a huge chunk of cinnamon roll lodged in my nasal passages! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Maria]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww

Snort that bad boy out.

[Louise]

Please avoid getting personal. Remember, we need to discuss issues, not individuals.

So says the cranky old moderator, who is sucking on a grape tootsie-roll pop and begs people not to make her snort that up her nostril, as it could really, really hurt!

[Maria]

Sorry Louise. It's just, just, just....oh, never mind. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Do I need to call 911 for you and Suzy?

[wannabegifted]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jen West:
From John Richard Young-

"This flexion of the poll, with the 'break' occurring just behind the ears, is a very different reaction than the fault of arching the entire neck. In arching the entire neck the horse brings his head in _low_ nearer his breast. Since this necessitates lowering his head, the horse shifts more weight onto his forehand; he thus becomes heavy in front, which is the exact opposite of the balanced lightness flexion seeks to achieve."

That would explain the lack of lowered croups as well as the pervasive "double-dipping" (making TWO beats with each hind foot for each forefoot beat in the piaffer and yes, even in the passage) exhibited by World Cup horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Winning must count for someting Jen, Those stirrups are adjustable, lets see you give it a shot.

[Kathy Johnson]

C'mon folks, forget deep, I am trying to wage a war on sexism here. Where is Harry Boldt (owner or the original sexist remark?) I'll take him on.

Where all the feminists? The ex-hippies, flower children? Girls with guys names like Toni and Bobbi?

Why do you think men have dominated as coaches? Do we really think they're better than women?!?!

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Velvet]

"I want to go deep."

It's a proven training method. It works. And anyone who can't back up their screaming about it being bad with a wall full of International ribbons/trophies must be one of the pathetic few who live in a fantasy and don't really know anything about how to ride dressage. Hey, I've known quite a few of those. They're the type that go in the show ring and blame the judge for being blind (no matter how many they ride in front of--and hear the same remarks from) because they always lose, and the photographer for catching only bad moments.

Ah, reality can bite...hard. I guess if you can't deal with it, you just pontificate about how wonderfully right you are in an attempt to drowned out reality. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(Suzy, what in the world are you doing snorting things and risking your latest nose job??? And here I thought you were more careful in your attempts to make Michael Jackson jealous... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[This message was edited by Velvet on Oct. 09, 2001 at 11:00 AM.]

[suzy]

And having nasal passages and nostrils widened to accommodate whatever I may be ingesting at the moment I read one of Maria's or Velvet's posts. It's just too painful otherwise. LOL.

On a totally different topic, when is our favorite reprobate rileyt due back?

[Velvet]

We need rilety out here again! Someone put out a call to the center and tell them to get her back online NOW!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[marianne]

I just don't know whether or not to wade in here. I may get a howler reponse from Jen West. (you Harry Potter fans know what I mean). I was at our local state fair this past weekend. And what I saw passing for English riding by Western riders is in no way close to riding "deep". More like long and low and all strung out. Deep is ridden with contact on the reins and from behind like Suzy said. I first learned about it from Gerd Zuther, formerly of November Hill Farm in VA now based in MA , in the early to mid 80's. (quite a bit before even Nicole Uphoff appeared on the scene). It was for relaxing and developing an OTT TB. AND IT WORKED. One thing that MUST pointed out is to learn it under a qualified eye. As with so much with dressage, it is the feel that is so important when something is done correctly.

I also pulled out any and all tapes of Olympic competition and on Slo-Mo watch, Rembrandt, Gigilo, Bonfire, Goldstern, Gifted, etc and can not see what Jen West is talking about on the foot fall. But then I am now in bifocals /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do remember that a few months or year ago, Dressage Today did have an article on Hillary Clayton on analyzing the Piaffe biomechanically and saying it did not really work in diagnal pairs. And this is from a respected researcher in the McPhail Chair at Michigan State using film, live models to analyze the science end of dressage. Granted this research may only appeal to those of us who are anal about detail /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif With respect to the ODG, until the early photographers caught the footfall of a galloping horse on film, the ODG of painting showed horses running like dogs-see Currier & Ives.

I am now prepared for my howler.

[Brookes]

I warm up deep, I warm up deep, I warm up deep, now I'm running for my life, it works!!!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[AMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chaser:

Which brings me to a point I have often wondered about. Why do so few instructors correct or develop the rider's positon? It is so crucial... I don't think any of my previous instructors have made any but the most coarse corrections, if any at all. They spend all their time on the horse's way of going, but unless the rider is correct, the horse cannot possibly move properly, although their generous nature means they try. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is an interesting topic in itself, Chaser! (Never having seen "deep" riding myself in my H/J world, I have no basis for commenting on that kettle of fish! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

In some ways I think it is a "chicken and egg: type of problem: If you put a less experienced rider on a horse who is not schooled properly and is going around inverted and resistant, it is hard to focus on position. But you can't get a horse schooled up and soft again if the rider is lacking in fundamentals of proper position. I think a lot of instructors find it much easier to deal with the horse's issues than the rider's because it generally takes less time and patience!

Well, I haven't really answered your question, I don't think, but that's my $.02! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[suzy]

You are welcome to hide behind Velvet, Maria, me et al. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Well, under one condition -- bring food and make sure that it's small enough to fit comfortably through our nostrils, okay?

[Brookes]

Ewwww! Visions of m&m's covered with snot!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Maria]

Boogers are not necessarily a bad thing.

[Velvet]

Maria likes salt, water, and discarded body cells. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Maria]

yummmmmmmm

Pull up a chair and join me.

[suzy]

I know that Louise says we are only supposed to talk about issues and not people, but really, you guys are just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO totally gross!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Maria]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think I will add a Snickers to my diet as well.

[PaulaM]

I audited an Albrecht Heidelman (sp?) clinic on Saturday and boy, did he ever want those horses ridden deep. But as a result of this deep riding it was amazing to begin to see these horses finally starting to come through over the back. Of course, he doesn't recommend riding this way all the time. Many horses just cannot physically handle the exertion required to maintain this deepness. But he also insisted that the horses move FORWARD no matter what, it the horse resisted you were to send it on immediately. Very interesting to watch. Hopefully I have learned something from it as well.

[judy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think a lot of instructors find it much easier to deal with the horse's issues than the rider's because it generally takes less time and patience!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Also, many instructors don't know HOW to help the riders. Many times it needs very subtle adjustments that are not easy to see. If you have an instructor who is gifted in that way, you are lucky!!! We have one, that I know of, in our area. That's ONE, out of many instructors, that knows how to help the rider balance and get out of the horse's way, and be effective.

[Velvet]

Try teaching for hours and hours and having some students who really want to know how they influence the horse and how they can improve, and then working with the majority who love to blame their horse. The majority of people want instant gratification and when you take the time to adjust their position and help them find a balance feel, they get bored because they aren't doing anything exciting like shoulder in, piaffe, passage or tempi changes. People in the U.S. need reality checks on their own riding...and often don't want to hear them.

The few who really care about their position are rare and are gems to work with. It's not always the instructor...it's often the students. (Based on percentages over the years of teaching lessons and clinics.)

[suzy]

It has NOTHING to do with talent OR desire and has everything to do with having a perfectly sculpted butt, long legs, and a short torso. Everyone else can either go to the plastic surgeon or just sign up for Riding for the Masses. It's that simple. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Velvet]

suzy's, er, *gasp* *gag* *choke*, right. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You can only be a true DQ if you have the perfect body. Other's need not apply--until they have completed their reconstruction with a plastic surgeon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[muley]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on one point. I have been involved in dressage for about 14 years, and the majority of people that I have worked with and have known, are very dedicated to riding dressage correctly, no matter how long it takes! The people who aren't, usually don't stick around for long. I can think of no one in my barn that gets impatient to do the fun stuff! Heck, a 10 meter circle, when done correctly can be fun! What about a correctly done trot lengthening, or a great leg yield? To me, getting these basics down and executed CORRECTLY is a great thrill. Why? Because I know it's done right, and it'll just make the fancy stuff even fancier! I can think of MANY riders who are difficult or near impossible to teach because they have the attitude that they already know what your trying to tell them. Or, they will say that they are doing something when in reality, they are not..These are the riders that I have a hard time with. Not the impatient ones, as they're here and gone too quickly.

Maybe different trainers attract different types of people, but the people that come to my trainer, are dedicated riders who really could care less how long the process takes as long as they learn the correct way to train and ride their horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

You're lucky. Sounds like a good barn. Most of the ones I'm at (and have been at in the past) are truly filled with an overwhelming majority of DQs (go figure /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) who buy advanced horses and think you are holding them back by teaching them basics. They seem to feel that if the horse can do it, they can ride it. Thus the reason I now like to focus on lower level riders with their own horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[AMom]

I do understand your point, Velvet! What do you do about the folks who are riding unschooled/poorly schooled horses as far as working on fix position first vs. fix horse first vs. perhaps try to fix them at the same time, etc.? I surely don't pretend to have an answer, looking for more experienced folks to help with their wisdom!

Also, Suzy you crack me up! The Learning Channel has replaced "A Dating Story" in the morning with "A Personal Story" which is based on people who are getting plastic/cosmetic surgeries either to correct abnormalities or enhance their looks. Would love to see "A DQ Story" on sculpting the perfect DQ body (booty??) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

But I will say that most of the time I still focus on the rider. It's actually even more apparent when they find a feel or a position. The horse will typically give them a big reply and make them have an even bigger "A ha!" moment than with schooled horses. Of course, there are those horses so ingrained in bad habits with their riders that they keep trying to compensate. With them, I'll usually hop on for a few minutes and show the horse what is expected and how nice it is when they get balanced and how soft the rider can be, then I get the rider back on, get them as far out of their rut as possible, and they have their epiphany when it all comes together. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[judy]

I know what you mean about students not wanting to do 'boring' stuff. I said to a friend once, that I was doing longue lessons to try to improve my seat. She said she didn't need to do that stuff as she had already done "Equitation" (saddle seat)! What do you say to someone with that attitude?

I suppose there are just as many trying NOT to do the 'hard' stuff as there are those trying to find an instructor to teach them the 'hard' stuff. When people buy a horse that has done higher work but can't do it with them riding, they blame it on the teacher for not teaching them where the buttons are. My sympathies to the teachers with those students.

[Brookes]

I'm back! Ha, I agree whole heartedly! Operator error caused me fits and fits! I finally met a trainer about 5 years ago that set me straight! Literally. I was just not effective with my seat at all. I looked pretty sitting there but wasn't "getting it". She was a disciple of Mary Wanless and the next thing I knew I was standing on the "edge of the diving board". Within a few short months I was actually riding my horse not just sitting there.

I just kept getting better and better along with the understanding of what and why I was doing certain things with my bod. It was absolutely amazing to me, I had thought that I was really doing pretty well, WRONG! I can only give myself credit in truly listening to this trainer and learning from her. I have the ability now to really ride my horses thanks to her.

She would not let me go forward with the training of my horse until I had a strong seat that I could depend on. Can you say lunge line! God my whole life was 20 meter circles for months! No stirrups, no reins, whew! It was alot of hard work but boy was it worth every sore screaming aching muscle! Thank god for hot tubs!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[muley]

Has always told me, "fix your position and the horse will follow". I believe this to be true.

I have made very subtle adjustments to my seat or leg and produced HUGE changes in my horses way of going. If your position is incorrect, you are blocking your horse.

[Cosmo]

exploded or what.

Just what I know, Jen West has been on a few boards and professed to not riding dressage, but still insists on clearly being better than everyone... but heck I ain't getting into discussing individuals.

Anyway, this weekend was the first weekend in a long long time that I have actually seen someone 'try' to teach deep to someone.

I must say that I was apalled. These people basically paid for one hour of stories. I asked questions and was told (in a certain tone...)'well I've just gotten back from such and such a place where the 6 masters of dressage were giving speeches about each of their 'systems'... and they all use their own variation of deep, this is how everyone warms their horses up', okay I say but the student you have right now is v v green and the horse is also v v green. So why are you teaching this to someone that has trouble keeping a contact and their seat (but is getting so much better at everything), why are you putting that horse so deep right now? The reply, well they all do it, so this is how we will do it... hummm okay if you were secure in your teaching why are you suddenly changing your whole system to doing it this way? Well I didn't really have the guts to ask the last one.

Okay so how were they teaching it?? Well not like I was taught, and we have this on video. She took hold of the reins down near the bit at a halt and pulled down to the chest. Pulled down so hard that said horse opened mouth (personally I would have bitten them), and resisted, still halted, pulled harder, well said horse reasoned with themselves and dropped head... I was never the less disgusted. Oh and pulled the rider out of their seat they had pulled so strongly, now this rider is a fairly strong person themselves (not saying that you need to be strong to ride.. but heck you know what I mean), so to see them getting pulled forward I know that there was a lot of pressure on that poor horses mouth. At a halt, no forward movement... okay whats wrong with this picture? Anyway, said horse and said rider go round for the next hour, listening to stories, and being told to ride more forward (granted that is sometimes an issue), but you ride more foreward but keep that contact. Said horse on video goes round for an hour with ears flat back against neck, said horse is grinding teeth, said horse has this nasty nasty look in its eyes...

Okay end of lesson, we say thanks watch said trainer school another horse, well that was ugly too.

Now said student and said horse have been to this trainer before, and they have always done really well under trainers instruction. Been deep, but getting it there differently, much nicer and much more asking rather than telling.

Hummm, I was appalled at how this was handled and how this was taught..... please someone tell me that there are still trainers out there that will help a student to encourage a horse down not just haul it in. I was so under the impression that everyone rode it like I was trained, but after seeing this display I was so angry that I couldn't talk to this person. I then watched the video and said okay this is what I see and you people tell me how it is different to the way this horse usually goes...

Unfortunately there was another person there that witnessed this, and although I cannot tell you what they were thinking, I could almost see that they may think it may work for their horse. So next lesson, I showed her how what would happen if we did it that way, and then showed her how we had been asking... never the less, the horse was happier with influences from the rider position and light elastic band rein pressure, was happier to stay there, and knew when they had done right...

Please someone tell me that I have not been going round thinking that everyone doesnot just pull their head down to get this way of going for warm up... it was so sad to see.

The point of this very long post.. well really to say if you want to ride deep good, but please make sure that your trainer is not just having you pull your horses head down. You guys out there know that no one trainer is god, use many different methods and make up a system of your own, and go with it. But keep learning and amending your own training processes.

No one person is right, no one person is perfect.

Cosmo

(who really likes Peron the best!!)

"Acceptance of the bit happens in the haunches, not in the mouth."
Dr. Thomas Ritter

www.geocities.com/bluejaystables (http://www.geocities.com/bluejaystables)

[suzy]

Cosmo, It's this type of training that gives deep a bad name. Heck, it gives dressage a bad name.

CWP, I'll happily go on that TV show if someone will front the money for the surgery. I'm either a plastic surgeon's dream come true or worst nightmare depending on how big a challenge he/she likes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sandy M]

or as my old (first) hunt-seat teacher said, "Everybody wants to jump, nobody wants to learn how to RIDE!"

[Velvet]

I always want to mangle the quote from "Field of Dreams" and say "If you fix your position and ride correctly, it will come together!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It's so true that there are those who just want to ride on a horse and not work. Gee, isn't that what it's supposed to LOOK like when you're at the top? Well, gee, honey, it only looks easy because they've developed the muscle, skill, and tact with their body, and the subsequent communication skills with their horse!!!!

I love these people who think that it's all going to come together by osmosis, or chanting a mantra...or something just as absurd. It takes good old plain sweat, tears and (as was pointed out) hot tubs! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The other thing that gets me is when a student knows they have to work hard for to get to that point, but forget that a green horse has to work just as hard. Hmmm...if a rider needs to sometimes feel like a pretzel to get corrected and brought out of bad habits, doesn't the same thing sometimes apply to a horse? If it's not natural...it takes work. And let me tell you, most of what we ask of dressage horses is NOT natural. You are building on something natural in most cases, but for an all around dressage horse you are backfilling holes in their talent and making them work beyond themselves...just as any athlete (including dressage riders) has to do.

Maybe some of this is also the problem with riding "deep." People don't realize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Most of the time it's not that difficult, but sometimes the first few times you try something new it's not easy and it doesn't look pretty. I love my coach. She always asks if you want to "die in beauty at a lower level" or really ride and work to the point where you find yourself close or at your dreams?

[canyonoak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy Johnson:
"C'mon folks, forget deep, I am trying to wage a war on sexism here. Where is Harry Boldt (owner or the original sexist remark?) I'll take him on.

Where all the feminists? The ex-hippies, flower children? Girls with guys names like Toni and Bobbi?

Why do you think men have dominated as coaches? Do we really think they're better than women?!?!"


Hey,I've taken on deep--now for sexism!


well..the world of dressage used to be dominated by cavalry-trained and influenced riders: eg--men.

and when these men grew up and wanted to impart their knowledge...for the most part, they turned to those with whome they were comfy: eg--men.


So part of it has to do with who got the Secret Knowledge of the Priesthood.

And part of it has to do with the physical--the muscle tone required to sit properly.
One can argue with Mary Wanless, but there is little doubt (heck, none) in my mind that she has provided THE vocabulary for the biomechanics of seat position. That is--whether riders think they sit a certain way or not, say they do or not--all the good riders DO sit a certain way and use certain muscles,connections, etc.

And it is easier for males to acquire the isometrics required for a truly independent seat and put it all on 'auto-pilot' and produce the seat of velcro,etc etc..so that they can actually get to the rest of the necessary stuff.


So even though at the top of the competitive pyramid the names are for the most part those of women--the eyes on the ground will still, for the most part, be male.

Will this change, is it changing? The chance to ride a lot of hoirses, to gain a LOT of experience/knowledge, is finally being given to women..
Ingrid Klimke appears to be following in those giant footprints--a Three Day Champion, now also showing very successful GP dressage AND Young Horse Championship dressage.... Ulla Salzgeber was the Young Rider Team coach for Germany, until she decided it was too much time away from her own training schedule. And Holger Schmezer, the current German Senior Team Coach, was the Young Rider Team coach...

Kyra Kyrklund has been acknowledged a prodigy since she was a teenager, and certainly can teach--so it will be interesting to see what she decides to do after she stops competing seriously.

I think there are hardly any riders in the world who would not work with these trainers based on their sex.


cheers,
Lita

[muley]

If I put a magnetic browband on myself, will I ride better? Or will it make me "calm" when I have to go visit my mother? Hmmmmmmmm

Opps, this is supposed to be the "deep" thread..
Forgot....Where's that browband... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Velvet]

You just forgot to chant your mantra "oooohhhhmmmm....riiiiiiiiddddde deeeeeeeeeeeeep." The magnetic band around your forehead will obviously add to the power of this chant. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Kathy Johnson]

That was a very thoughtful and thought provoking reply, Lita.

What men might make up for in "seat" they often lack in feel/timing/tact. This is perhaps why the women can excell riding these hot animals, where perhaps a man might fail at riding them, yet excell at coaching.

I agree that Anky has amazing timing and tact, although I don't find her seat particulary attractive (cut it out there, Suzy!)

I firmly believe that a woman can almost always ride a "man's horse," but that a man can almost never ride a "woman's horse," if you know what these types of animals stereotypically are.

It has been said that women ride with more sensitivity and feel than men and that is what levels the playing field. Although you might say that is reverse sexism, I think, by definition, reverse sexism really can not exist.

Timing, tact and feel are very hard to teach. So, it also may be harder for a woman to teach what she excells at: timing, tact and feel, where a man can fairly easily teach the biomechanics of the seat.

I too will be interested to see what happens as the new generations of female coaches come along.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[suzy]

>>>I agree that Anky has amazing timing and tact, although I don't find her seat particulary attractive (cut it out there, Suzy!)

Sheesh, and I was minding my own business for a change. Where'd that come from? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Maria]

Uh huh, likely story.

[suzy]

You need to get a life and point that videocam in a different direction. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[canyonoak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy Johnson:
<<What men might make up for in "seat" they often lack in feel/timing/tact. This is perhaps why the women can excell riding these hot animals, where perhaps a man might fail at riding them, yet excell at coaching....>>


Wait a minute! Theodorescu was famous for his hot, fancy mare, Cleopatra!
Podhajsky was famous for his hot, non-fancy mare (whose name escapes me)And Neckerman's mare Venetia was not a saint. And I doubt that anyone in their right mind thinks Dr. Klimke's Ahlerich was a packer...At the TOP of the heap, the great horsemen are great because they have the whole enchilada-- timing, tact, feel, AND a great seat.
And I dont think this has so much to do with their sex as their sense of self-security and perspective.

<<Timing, tact and feel are very hard to teach. So, it also may be harder for a woman to teach what she excells at: timing, tact and feel, where a man can fairly easily teach the biomechanics of the seat.>>


I think seat biomehanics are equally difficult to teach..and I hardly think the male instructors Ive had had even one atom's more interest in seat and position than the female instructors..I think GREAT instructors decide what the priority of the moment is and find a way to instruct upon that point...weaving in pointers about seat along with the necessary timing patterns.
What I DO think is that women have had to develop the muscle between their ears because they recognize--and accept--that they are not going to physically overwhelm nearly any horse.

The best horsemen ALL know that,men or women.
But a lot of so-called trainers are just people with long legs who can stay on a horse long enough that the horse gets tired of fighting..

I do not call that training. That is just teaching a horse to be fit and sour. And unrideable for the next person.

cheers

Lita

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Podhajsky was famous for his hot, non-fancy mare (whose name escapes me) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The moment you've all been waiting for, joliemom joins in /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Podhajsky's mare was Nora. He also rode the quite fractious Lipp, Maestoso Alea who he believed had severe mental problems.

[Kathy Johnson]

What I DO think is that women have had to develop the muscle between their ears because they recognize--and accept--that they are not going to physically overwhelm nearly any horse.

>This is the point. Women physically aren't going to overwhelm the horse riding deep either. If Boldt's original statement were true, then men would never ride deep, because they wouldn't have to.

The best "horsemen" ALL know that,men or women.

>I think to be politically correct here, we should address them as "people of horses."

But a lot of so-called trainers are just people with long legs who can stay on a horse long enough that the horse gets tired of fighting..

>We are in total agreement here, although I think we are addressing the dressage hack rather than any rider of Anky's caliber.

It is certainly easy to spout off examples of world class male trainers riding hot horses successfully, but I have often wondered how much better those horses, such as Biotop, might have gone under lighter women riders. When exactly did the Spanish Riding School even admit women?

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[cortez]

I just had to do it!! I just had to add to the title. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dezertrose:
Don't forget that, my idea of riding style is different from yours... I like a pretty hunt seat (that is effective) with the heels down, and the body extremely quiet (no floppy legs that I tend to see in the dressage world).....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

READ: perched, w/@ss up in the air riding an inverted horse flat to the jumps /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif LOL

Really... 6 months and you have an 'eye' for dressage. WOW, how did you do that?! It must be awsome to completely cover dressage in that short of time.... It takes more time to get my new custom tiara made!

I must go now and sharpen my claws.

Sole: The foundation in
ladies footwear.
Soul: Ladies footwear....

[suzy]

I think your claws are plenty sharp. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Don't go gilding the lily.

[rescuemom]

DQ, thanks for the laugh. I'm sure it wasn't Classical Dressage our hunter gal was talking about! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

suzy, if you would loan her your frying pan the nail sharpening would be superfluous. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Jen West]

Make fun of DesertRose all you like- that does not change the fact that MANY even upoper level dressage riders flop like mad on a horse- I'd reward the horses for carrying them- call hunt seat riders perchers all you like, but seldom will you see a flat sloppy floppy person on a hunter whereas on a dressage horse lousy floppiness and pure sloth are given some non-offensive euphemisms and are rewarded if the horse can be persuaded to capitulate in spite of the rider's purely inpt machinations.

[AWIP]

I think I smell the beginning of a new crusade ... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[suzy]

Okay, my weekend agenda:

Sharpen claws to razor point
Tune-up bus
Cut bus brakelines
Get a heavier frying pan

I do think I'll be ready come Monday. Muhahahaha. And maybe rileyt will be back to join in the fray by then.

Meow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[neighsayer]

Good luck! I am more than willing to puchase a back-up frying pan in case you need someone to help!

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

don't flop. And DQs would NEVER be caught flopping (we use artistic plastic surgery to avoid that nastiness).

Methinks JW has seen too many wannabes riding around. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[neighsayer]

Here we go again!

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Jen West]

The only wannabes I ever see are chickens that wannabe stew. The ONLY dressage I see regularly is on OLN, so if the best that the World Cup has to offer are a bunch of wannabes, well, I can't argue there. That has been, in fact, the point that I have been trying to make. Thank-you for your help making it.

Frankly, it hurts me to watch it. We no longer watch dressage. I've seen barrel racers with softer hands and quieter legs.

[Brookes]

Why is it whenever a perfectly lovely conversation is happening here, Jen West shows up with her storm clouds to rain on the parade??? Jen West, may I suggest that since you find world cup level dressage so terribly offensive, that you no longer tune in. Everyone has tried to be reasonable with you in the past, frankly I'm getting tired of your negativity. If you would like to send us tapes of you riding dressage at the world cup level so that you can assure us that you are neither fat nor sloppy or floppy in the saddle, I'm sure we can all find a six pack of Domaine Chandon and a DVD set up for a fun filled evening of enlightenment. In the mean time I also have an appointment to see my manicurist! Ta! Ta!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[neighsayer]

I am also finding it extremly frustrating that every time we try and have a civil conversation it becomes a war were JW gets to slag everyone off! Whenever anyone fights back we get told to cool it!

JW if you prefer the western pleasure scene and think that modern dressage sucks then why do you torture yourself by coming to this board?! By now, haven't we all figured out that we will never convince you and you will never convince us?!

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Louise]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Maria]

YEA!!!! What Louise said!!!

Mercy.

[coppelia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've seen barrel racers with softer hands and quieter legs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? While I'm sure there are exceptions, I've always thought that in barrel racing it was a prerequisite to try to fly with your legs, all the while hissing & yeeeeeehawing at your pony while flicking the reins at his head? Hmmm. And, have you seen some of the western bits out there? No doubt your hands can be quiet with them... move the reins more than the required 1/2 inch and your horse has had the top of his mouth ripped to shreds. Nice.

Personally, I keep getting excited every time I see there's been a new post or two on this thread. Especially when it's inflamitory or just plain stupid (in my opinion that is /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )... it's always fun to see what comes next!

[suzy]

Stupid + inflammatory = funny.

Don't chase away the troll!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

I'll just repeat myself. REAL DQs use surgery so they don't flop. Real trainers at the upper levels will sometimes flop because that is the nature of riding trots that were never meant to be sat upon...but rather only driven from a carriage. It's the nature of the beast. Now, if they would all just quit training fantastic horses and instead would learn to sit like perfect little dolls riding those perfectly trained horses at a casual crawl around the arena, like every DQ who is worth her salt...um, well, I guess we wouldn't have any perfectly trained horses anymore now would we? Thus...

Oh, no! I've figured it out! Jen West is trying to remove DQs from the planet! Someone abolish her! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Brookes]

Oops, sorry Louise. I just get snotty when I haven't had my morning champagne cocktail, it was the maid's day off. Geez, trolls huh?

Although whatever we said seemed to have worked! I haven't seen any troll posts since hmmm? Are you sure that wasn't just Suzy's evil twin or something. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Helter Skelter!!!

Oh and Velvet, no DQ ever flops, you know better than this, we bounce slightly, due to the prosthetic inserts in our rear ends to give us those wonderfully shapely bottoms!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[suzy]

Sheesh, I get blamed for everything. Now even Brookes thinks I'm trolling around. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But, seriously, Velvet makes a REALLY good point. Riding the gaits of a really, good moving warmblood is dramatically different than riding the jog and lope of a QH who takes short, low to the ground steps. All I have to say is that until you've ridden some of these big, spectacular movers, don't be so hard on riders whose legs, seats and lower backs are absorbing all of that beautiful movement. ANYONE can sit a jog or lope without moving. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Velvet]

Methinks Brookes did not really read my posts! *pout*

I said DQs do NOT bounce, but some talented trainers might...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif So there!

VelvetstampingherfootlikeanyDQwouldforemphasis

[Brookes]

Ahhh Suzy, you have the best sense of humor! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif What a great sport you are! See I'm nice Louise, my maid just brought me my cocktail and my medicine! Ha!

Suzy, I know what you mean, a lady I used to board with a million years ago had a western pleasure horse, she let me ride him a couple of times. I swear you could sit there and put on your makeup while the thing was moving. I wanted to kick it and yell "FORWARD"!!!

One of my guys has the trot from hell! I have spent sooo many long hours on the end of the longe line learning to sit that sucker. And I wonder why my back hurts all the time? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Every once in a while I will loose it on him and just start bouncing out of the saddle if I'm not really paying total attention to transitions through the trot, oh well back to the longe line again for me. My riding pal has a gorgeous W line mare that trots like shes floating on air, so so comfy! I always ask her, gee wanna trade today? She just laughs and says no thanks! Some friend! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Although I always get to ride her when she goes on vacation! Maybe I should buy her an airline ticket to anywhere!


Soo Soorry Velvet, you're right I moved all your words around to suit my own post, I am the most selfish self centered DQ around. I guess I should get an award for that right? You are of course correct as always, I bow to your superior insight and knowledge. Gee, I wish I was you.


Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

Well, I guess I can accept your apology, Brookes, but a little more bowing and scraping wouldn't hurt.

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[Brookes]

Oh ho Velvet LOL! Bowing and scraping huh?! Well ok, you deserve it.

Oh Velvet, you're soooo pretty, oh Velvet, you're soooo smart, oh velvet, you ride like a dream, oh Velvet, there isn't enough medication on earth to make me continue this! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I mean really Velvet I am a DQ afterall, I only normally bow and scrape to ODG (who are still alive) and my god awful in laws! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I will only make this one exception, unless of course I'm wrong again! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hey by the way, don't I get any credit for chasing off the troll? (hopefully!) Heaven forbid she's only on vacation or something!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Maria]

I think I may throw-up.

[Brookes]

Maria, ROTFLMAO!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Velvet]

Don't you know that throwing up is passe? Long ago suzy and I discovered that liposuction was much more simple and also allowed us to continue our natural eating and drinking habits--while being able to fit into our size 20 (european size) breeches. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[suzy]

>>>a lady I used to board with a million years ago had a western pleasure horse, she let me ride him a couple of times. I swear you could sit there and put on your makeup while the thing was moving. I wanted to kick it and yell "FORWARD"!!!

Well, (naturally) I can one-up this. My dad had a QH that was so comfortable that I could ride him standing on my head while simultaneously getting dressed, putting on my make-up and talking with one of my many beaux on my cell phone.;)

So there.:p

If Velvet can show me how to post pictures, I could post a picture of my Dad's newest horse. The one I can barely stay on even with one leg on either side, sitting upright AND facing forward (a novelty for me), and with one rein in each hand. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[jumpinghfarm]

i have followed this post for a while and have found some of the posts quite amusing...... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I just wanted to add thank god I am not alone!!!! One of my students just bought an upper level dressage horse (gran prix) and when I rode him to sit his trot I thought my life not to mention my back muscles and stomach muscles had come to a painfull end. lol. This horse is incredible to watch and very easy in the bridle we ride him in a loose ring snaffle for most of his movements but to sit his trot in a straight line. Please god shoot me.... I think I am going to ask Brooks, velvet and a couple of the other who is your surgeon for those non-flop implants.... <grin> I too want to become a dressage queen and not bounce.

Nicole Huttar
www.jumpinghfarm.com (http://www.jumpinghfarm.com) /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[Brookes]

jumpingh! Welcome and jump in anytime. Get thee a tube o' "Saddletite" and use not sparingly! I figure if I can glue my sorry butt to the saddle I won't smack into the rafters in the indoor! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for being a DQ, any type of "enhancement" surgery is acceptable. Although never admit to coloring your hair, even though we all do! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The only gray I want to see is on my horse, of course I should be looking ahead not down at his stupid neck!

Oh and Ms. Suzy (D)Q! Of course you can top my story, although the picture better have you standing on your silly head on that horse!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[marianne]

Supposedly, according to Jen West, they do not flop and have quiet hands. However, they use tiedowns that do just that and can be made of wire and have long reins to whip horse from shoulder to shoulder. And have stirrup lengths that make old time jockeys have short legs. And while their legs may not be flopping the upper body is going back and forth and every which way to stay with the horse. But you must admit they do have better colors that our black and white. And hair like Farrah Fawcett must be streaming out behind, not up under a hair bow. As for the bits, if you really want to get into the ODG bits in Western riding, then look at the Spade bits, these had Ports of 2-3 inches long and long shanks to. very ornate but very deadly. No, I will take my floppy legs and snaffles. Any day.

[neighsayer]

being a DQIT (DQ in training) I must confess I have not yet been able to afford the surgery to keep me from delicatly moving with the horse's movement. I did however find that an overgirth attached across my lap has a similar effect ( I knew all that darn eventing gear would come in handy /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

Just letting you all into my little secret. I know we can't all be as well "sculpted" as some on this board (*cough* velvet *cough*)

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

Too true, neighsayer. *buffing perfect red nails on lapel of Harry Hall dressage coat* But you are indeed learning, and we will get you there...yet. suzy, dahling, needs to come out and post some pictures. Her latest surgery did wonders for her position!

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[Brookes]

Is this suck up to Velvet day?

My, my Velvet, aren't you just getting the lion's share, or should I say lioness's share of lovin' here today!

By the way my dear red nail polish is for hook...never mind, true DQ's have french manicures with toesies to match! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[muley]

That it's true, riding a warmblood with a nice relaxed and moving back, is much different than riding a horse with his back braced. I rode a horse a few months ago with such a tight back, that I had to look down to see if we were trotting. I found this difficult to post as I didn't know what diagional to go on...and nothing was moving. Sure it's easy to ride those horses.

Also, one more point.. Aren't we supposed to be loose and relaxed? Loose ankles and knees make for a better and more secure seat than pinching with the thighs... I could ride quietly too, if I had a tight horse, and rode incorrectly with my thighs...

But then again, I'm not a world cup rider like some who post here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

[Velvet]

*sigh* Yet again, I must teach you a DQ lesson. No, we do not use French manicures, we use red nail polish. If we didn't everyone would be able to see the blood under our nails after all of our gentle little "scratches" we give DQwannabes.

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(Oh, and of course I'm getting all the love. It's all about ME, isn't it? I think I was told this a time or two on Off Course.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[neighsayer]

you're right! I was shocked to hear that velvet would consider RED /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif nailpolish!! Even as a DQIT I realize how passe that is. One would wonder if she worde little short red hook......er I mean ankle boots as well.

Goodness, was I looking up to a ficticious internet DQ?!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

Neighsayer, I don't see the need to repeat myself. You just further display your ignorance of what a real DQ looks like when you make such statements. *heavy sigh*


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[suzy]

Okay, then, Velvet. Post a picture of what a REAL DQ looks like! Muhahahahaha.

[Velvet]

Doesn't this look like a good DQ to you?

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[suzy]

You evil witch. I'll get you for this... and your little dog, too!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hey, hey, wait a minute. Did you use Photoshop to remove my 5 carat diamond studs!!!??? And you put a sweater and scarf on to cover up my $2M Harry Winston diamond necklace!!! Also, it was downright cruel of you to "age" me like that. In real life, I look at least 20 years younger than that photo.

[Maria]

Ahhhhhhhh, my eyes my eyes, burn, pain, hurt. HELP.

[suzy]

Zeroing in on you AND your little dog, too, while I'm at it. Be afraid, be very afraid. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Brookes]

Wow you guys, I go out to ride and look what happens here! Suzy I have to admit you're pretty cute! What is the name of your plastic surgeon, I must have it!! Sorry that your diamonds don't show, however if you were wearing your tiara like any good DQ we would have recognized you immediately for what you are! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thank you ladies! Yes the french manicure is in for the DQ! Those red nails are totally passe Velvet dahlink!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LOL! I bet she does have some of them hot red little hook. .. oops boots to go with the claws!! Besides a proper DQ has a nail brush at the barn to clean the forensic evidence from under ones nails!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[suzy]

I don't know who that poor wretch is, but it's NOT me!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

Oh, darn, after swiping at Brookie I now have to get a new manicure. Ah, well, at least the blood doesn't show...

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