The Anky thread that has nothing to do with anything but has a whole lot to say about alot

[Brookes]

OHHHHH Miss Viscious Velvet!!!!

Ouch! Please not the face!

I hope you broke two nails!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Velvet]

EvilVelvet, to you, Brookes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[suzy]

That would be "Mrs. Evil Velvet" to you!

Hey, where's Louise and her frying pan to knock us back into a more equine conversation...

[suzy]

I was dubbed "Evil Witch" at the last barn I boarded at because I had the NERVE to complain when I repeatedly found my horse without a single drop of water night after night after night. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Go ahead; try to beat THAT!

[Rosey]

After wading through 13 pages of posts...I have just a FEW things to say:
Jen West: Hon, please, as a very wise man once said: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". That said, I will address some of your complaints. Are you really that old?? You've ridden a REAL war horse?? COOL!!!!! So, the didn't spook huh? really? Have proof??;)
I'll be honest, I have noticed a lot of floppy legs in dressage myself, but if western saddles weren't so stiff...you'd see a lot of floppy legs there too.Now, I am sure you are a very good rider and do incorperate dressage into your training program, however, I don't think you can say you are the best Western Pleasure rider in the world...so I hardly think you are in a position to say you can ride better than the current leading competition dressage rider in the world, as dressage is not your sport. Now, that said, I wouldn't want to ride like Anky either...I don't feel her method of warm up is the best...but then again, who am I to say. If it works for her, then so be it...mine works for me.
Western Pleasure needs ALOT of help. Peanut rolling is not pretty and it is very bad for the horses. I know most WP people don't do that any more,but still.
Now, dressage riders, DQ's, hunters, jumpers, etc who posted:
Have you ever ridden a barrel racer? Nope, didn't think so. I have, so I'll say a few things. Tie downs are not cruel or anything else...ride most barrel racers without one, you'll and up with a smashed mouth and a broken nose. Barrel racers, for the most part, do have quiet hands. My mother rode in the gaming events when she was in HS. She trained her horse from the ground up. He was #1 in the nation for barrels, #2 in the nation for Pole bending, #1 in the State of California for Pole Bending, #1 in the State of California for Barrel Racing. That horse, who was a grade gelding, continued to win saddles into his late 20's. My mom tried to look him up to buy him back when she got back into horses when I was 3....everywhere she went people would say "Oh, that little black gelding...yeah, the last time I saw him, he was winning a saddle!". Now, does my mother (she doesn't ride anymore) have bouncy hands, nope! Does my mother jerk on a horse's face..nope! Do her ankles wobble, nope!
So, like I implied to Jen West, unless you've been there, done that...please keep your mouth shut.

All that said, we all need to remember that bad days are had, people make mistakes, horses make mistakes, people fall off, horses go lame, and...no one is perfect!
Yeah, I'll probably get killed for this post, but I felt the need to say a few things.
I've ridden barrels, hunters, and now dressage...I like dressage the best, but it has its faults and its nasty people, just like anything else.
Ride because you love horses and want to improve yourself as a person, not because you have to prove something...there will always be someone better than you.
Rosey
P.S.
Yep, I'd bet there are better riders than Anky out there...as wonderfully talented as she is:) Just ask the Spanish Riding school!

[suzy]

Rosey, you're my new hero. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[neighsayer]

Velvet I believe your age is showing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Nothing sadder than a DQ who still thinks she's stylish but is wearing the style from 20 years ago. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I mean really darling!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

Where???

[suzy]

that she doesn't even recognize her fashion faux pas. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Oops, and Suzy is talking to herself again. That's what happens to aged DQs.

[Brookes]

Rosey! My, my so terribly eloquent dear!! I can see that our pal JW has gotton under your skin also.

Your mothers sounds like she was quite the rodeo gal! You must be so proud of her. Does she still have all those darn saddles she won? I've always wondered what people do with those after they have won 5 or 6? Do they sell them or keep them as trophies?

As for you Suzy and Velvet you dear, dear ladies, eh hemmmm. . .. sorry something got caught in my throat! Must have been a furball, meow! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just to make sure this continues to be horse related and we don't get busted royally by our oh so understanding, compassionate and good natured moderator.

Here's a question for you two. We are introducing my younger gelding to the double bridle, he is schooling 4th level now. If I so much as put even the slightest bit of pressure on the curb (right side only) he immediately goes rein lame! I'm pretty good with a double bridle, so my trainer tried and she had the same problem. She wants to wait for my clinician to come and figure it out, which I agree with. I would like your feedback on this, pretty, pretty please!!!!!!!!! I'll say nice things about you!
Promise I will! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Rosey]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I try!!
Yeah, I'm proud of my mum!!! She has taught me so much about horses, riding, life, etc.
No, she doesn't have any saddles anymore....but she has 4 GIANT boxes of trophies, ribbons, buckles, and all that. Over 300 ribbons...not bad for a highschooler with no trailer (she rode to all her competitions).

I think that people need to chill out, because unless you've ridden every horse in the world, in every fashion that exists...you aren't in any place to pick someone else apart. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[coppelia]

I didn't mean to offend you or any other reasonable person on the board with my comments about barrel racing. I used to do all the fun stuff with my pony club mounts when I was younger and I'd love to do it again if I could get my hands on a horse that could turn like that!!
While I don't have the personal experience that you do by the sounds of it, from what I've seen, those barrel horses are not just for anyone. They look so fired up to do their job that I've seen it neccessary to have a person leading them sideways into the arena & then just let them go to do their job. I have no doubt that there's been some broken noses out there.
I guess I just don't see how you can compare the two sports, besides the fact that you're riding horses in both. And obviously I think we've all learned that you can't paint all the riders of every dicipline with the same brush. That would be like saying all dressage riders are good riders. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Rosey]

Hope I spelledyour name right.
No offense taken actually:)

[muley]

Your mother sounds like me!
I used to barrel race, had to ride to all my competitions, and had boxes of ribbons and stuff from way back!! Whoa, that was strange reading that.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

In the summertime, the competitions would be held in the evenings, and by the time they were over, I would be riding throught the desert in the middle of the night...Only ran into a few Rattlesnakes.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

[Rosey]

How odd!!!
Its funny, there are a lot of people who now ride English/dressage who use to ride western...they are now ashamed to admit it!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[muley]

I loved my western years! Barrel racing, WP, trail classes...

Waiting for the dust storms to blow over so that we could see the barrels well enough to run them!
I don't live in CA, but in AZ.

In the summertime, we had our shows at night, and in the late summer, the Monsoon would always bring a dust storm or thunderstorm. It was a very fun time for me. I learned a lot about riding, and horses in those days..

http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

[Robbierox]

Velvet wrote:
Brookie, dahlin...
*sigh* Yet again, I must teach you a DQ lesson. No, we do not use French manicures, we use red nail polish. If we didn't everyone would be able to see the blood under our nails after all of our gentle little "scratches" we give DQwannabes.

Really ladies! Even we Canadians KNOW that U.S.A. DQ's don't wear RED nail polish....they wear "U.S.E.T. Red" nail polish! Duh!

[Velvet]

To Robbierox, kudos! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And a child, er, Canadian shall lead them... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jumpinghfarm]

brooks,

If he is having problems on the right side only could the curb bit be hitting a sore spot in the gum or even interferring with a tooth? I am not that familiar with double bridles although my arab stallion has shown in them before. His previous owner warned me to get the correct curb because some will bother his gums..????? hope this helps. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[marianne]

I do you believe you are right about the comment regarding the western riders and dressage. It fits me. My deep secret in my equestrian life is: "I WAS A TEENAGE RODEO QUEEN" and I can probably tie a goat faster than Velvet can touch her tiara and yes I have run barrels in a previous life. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Welcome to the board.

[Brookes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marianne:
"I WAS A TEENAGE RODEO QUEEN" and I can probably tie a goat faster than Velvet can touch her tiara .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please, please tell us you have a scanner and pictures of you hog tying a goat!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Besides don't all rodeo queens already have tiaras? They wear them on their cowboy hats, an affectation I always found delightful! But wait, that means you must have a matching sash, ohhhh, we must get some of those!!

Jumpinhigh! Thanks for the tip, that was the first thing we checked, he did have his teeth done recently, perhaps they missed something, I wasn't going to stick my hand in there to find out! We didn't see any obvious sores, I do think that I will have my vet check his mouth again just to be on the safe side. Thanks!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Rosey]

Congratulations!!! Riding western is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is riding English and dressage. Each type requires skills, some different, some the same.
I'll have to post a pic of me goofing around on my 19 yo Paint mare, critics welcome on my lovely bareback posture:)

[Brookes]

Hey Robbirox! Canada Sucks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[neighsayer]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
You won't be saying that when California's trying to buy our water!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Brookes]

LOL Neighsayer! It's raining here! Ha! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Besides us DQ's only drink bottled European water! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[slc2]

Here's a question for you two. We are introducing my younger gelding to the double bridle, he is schooling 4th level now. If I so much as put even the slightest bit of pressure on the curb (right side only) he immediately goes rein lame! I'm pretty good with a double bridle, so my trainer tried and she had the same problem. She wants to wait for my clinician to come and figure it out, which I agree with. I would like your feedback on this, pretty, pretty please!!!!!!!!! I'll say nice things about you!
-------
his contact on the snaffle bit is maybe not even, and it is only noticeable when he hits the curb.

go back and correct that so he is even behind, get both hind legs to come thru better.

also think he could be getting behind the bit and you just need to push him to the bit more with your legs. i've seen that happen a lot when the double bridle goes on. but be wise and ponder if maybe he just lacks the strength and steadiness of contact still to go onto the double bridle (by this i mean a horse needs to be strong to go on the bit in the double bridle, it takes more strength in him and the rider for sure), it is not such an easy thing for the horse.

he can also be crooked and made more crooked in the double bridle.

the double bridle always magnifies any problems in the training, so it can be there is something you need to go back and fix, such as making the hind legs carry the same amount and making the suppleness in the poll and jaw, and making the shoulders not go to the outside, in other words making the horse more straight and ''standing up on his legs'' with the same amount of weight on each leg. think about using position fore if you need to make straight and watch the outside aids when making any circular track, bring the shoulder around with the outside aids.

in general i'd suggest you do like most of us here do and ride with the curb reins tied up on his neck for about 6 months, too only school 1-2 x a week in the double (so that six months isn't really that many rides in the double bridle). after some months you take up the curb reins but leave them loose without any pressure. only later you take up the rein, and then use it very sparingly, and on the other rides confirm very much the forward and a good contact and fix any issues the double bridle brought up.

also check the fit of the bits. the mouth piece of the curb may be too thick for his mouth; at least that's common in my area.

a lot of people start putting on the double bridle earlier than you, but don't pick up the curb rein for ages, that way the horse can get used to the bridle and bit with plenty of time and no difficulty. but you don't have to show at 4th level in the double bridle so you have time now too anyway.

alot of horses will have it on for a long time with the curb reins tied up so that they get comfortable with it easily over a long period of time.

[DQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dezertrose:
Maybe I'll come back, but I probably won't... Attack me all you want.... Basically as I was once told by someone I consider to be a "hero" -
Quote: " When someone is losing the battle, they attack you personally because they cannot deal with the issue. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The irony there is too funny
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Are you even old enough to understand it?!

Sole: The foundation in
ladies footwear.
Soul: Ladies footwear....

[slc2]

where there is snipping and catty remarks there is little learning going on, and little listening and thinking about what is being said.

i haven't seen any really good dressage riders that were any floppier than the movement of the horse might warrant with a correct deep seat. you have to realize what type of movement the upper level horses produce and what it's like to sit on them before you start condemning people. try sitting on one of those horses sometime and see just how well you do, and you'll have more appreciation for what's going on and what it takes to do the upper levels.

AND....it really would be good to watch some top level dressage riders, instead of the local ''big fish in a little pond'' who have convinced locals that they're legends in their own time....and can't ride their way out of a paper bag.

too, i'd be sympathetic to the lesser lights who are going through the painful process of learning to sit a better moving, bigger moving horse. it isn't easy, and it's something most people don't even have the guts to TRY to learn, let alone to drag themselves out in public and listen to the snips of the know-it-all railbirds who have never done anything, but know all about how everyone who IS should be doing it.

it takes about 3 years to learn to sit a bigger moving horse so most people when they finally get a good moving horse are going to look pretty bad for a good while, unless they ''cut down'' the gaits of the horse so they can ride them. and in fact, every time they move up, they're going to ''revisit'' those learning stages, and you see people going thru these stages repeatedly.

some horses can withstand this cutting down for a time, for others it will interfere with their final amount of gait development reaching its full potential, and wind up permanently restricting them, so it's a gamble sometimes.

so if the rider can withstand all the inevitable snotty nasty remarks, it's better for the horse usually to just let 'er rip and hang on as best you can and let the ability to ride the bigger mover develop, and hope that people around will be knowledgeable enough to understand what is going on.

there are inevitable development stages a person's seat goes through, and if you try to keep them from happening and fight them, your seat just won't develop.

it means that for a time at the start, a person MUST flop loosely in the saddle, and probably will no matter what sort of tiny little mover they're put up on. that stage goes on for a long time, and without that relaxation and looseness, a proper seat won't develop.

later on, the rider will learn to follow the motion and will develop his muscles so he is stronger and has the stomach and back muscles to stabilize himself in the saddle and take on a more elegant, still position.

and at THAT time, he'll look pretty lousy too - too stiff and too unyielding in the saddle.

but it's all a part of the game. if you don't go through the loose phase you'll never get a good seat....if you don't go thru the stiff phase later, you won't progress either.

the only way to avoid these is by restricting the horse with artificial aids and harsh use of the hands so he doesn't use his body fully. too, less talented horses, the ''comfortable horses'' that never swing their hips or back, can give a person a false sense of having a good, supple, following seat.

a part of developing the seat is an awful lot of bouncing and flopping and looking basically just horrible, riding without reins, without stirrups, with ONE stirrup, with ONE rein, making circles with your arms, doing exercises and stretches in the saddle, and basically just a whole lot of flopping around. without that, the seat will never improve. but a lot of folks THINK they sit very well and very quiet - sure they do, as long as the horse has no gait, or they don't try to sit down in the saddle. suffice to say, most people don't sit anywhere near as well as they think they do - there is always room for improvement, and always the more challenging horse who will come along and say, ''sorry, sweetheart, but you need to sit better to ride MOI''. and that's when you start realizing how far you have to go, and how much there is to learn. and THAT is the point where you really start learning, when you realize that you can always be better. AND that someone being not as good as you doesn't make you any better, or any LESS in need of improvement LOL.

there is a certain amount of education people need to understand dressage riding and to look at it.

for example, some years ago, a junior rider who was my buddy came over to watch riding videos.

with no introduction i put a video on. she proceeded to tear the fellow down mercilessly, criticizing his horrible seat and how he rode.

it was reiner klimke.

[This message was edited by slc on Nov. 12, 2001 at 01:00 PM.]

[suzy]

What SLC said!!!!!!!

[neighsayer]

Thank-you.
Very well said and something we should all keep in mind.

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

Floppy, bouncy suzys and Velvets. What an awful thought. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Never, I say! Never!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jumping isn't hard, once you've learned how to first "get over" yourself.

[DocHF]

Velvet, come sit by me hon, a minute. ( ooof, I said by me, not on me)
Now there are those who simply love to watch the flopping and bouncing. Some love the actual process for anatomical reasons. We call them men. And others love to cut down their competition. We call them DQ's. So please don't deprive them.
Keep sitting and bouncing until the bounce becomes one with your horse, like Suzy.

[Brookes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr Horsefeathers:
Now there are those who simply love to watch the flopping and bouncing. Some love the actual process for anatomical reasons. We call them men. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that what Baywatch is for?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Run Yasmine Run!!!

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Camstock]

I want to kiss you for this paragraph that you wrote way back on page 5 or something: "As the horse's musculature develops and he learns to lift his withers and keep them lifted while bringing his hindlegs under and sitting, you can then ask him to bring his poll up so that it is the highest point without risking the withers dropping and the horse hollowing his back. I see far too many pictures of horses whose polls are the highest point but to the detriment of everything else. Poll up is last on my list of things to do when asking for collection. Start with active hindlegs, good connection into the bridle, swinging back, and withers up - then bring the poll up. To bring the poll up first invites the horse to drop his withers and hollow his back."

That's it. You've reduced it to its most elegant terms. You're the Einstein of Dressage. He said something like, "Reduce things to the simplest terms, but no simpler." You've done it. I've saved it on my desktop and will write it on my dry erase board in the barn tonight and ride on with renewed confidence.

What you've said is where I'm going, and it feels great to read what I have always known and felt in my horse, put so precisely and plainly. Thank you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To Jen W, you are correct in many things, but you'll catch a lot more flies with sugar than vinegar. I read ODGs too, and lots of them had great humour and generosity to go with their knowledge. Good old Alois P. springs to mind. They did a lot of learning from each other, and only the weakest among them took potshots at each other instead of letting their training do the talking, if they disagreed. Furthermore, many of them were riding fundamentally different types of horses than we are, which affected their training methods. I hear the ODG's ghostly voices wisely advising you to lighten up if you want to carry their work forward. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Read some Sally O'Connor to learn about accomplished horsemanship with confident flexibility and KISS.

[Louise]

You have made your points, now move on. Get back to the issues.

[suzy]

And the Relevant point is that I am the "Einstein of Dressage." Eat your hearts out Velvet and RileyT. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Velvet]

Where's that icon--that throwing up emoticon--that the booger board has? I'm in desperate need of it right now.

Louise, can you get one? Otherwise I can't give suzy an appropriate response. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[This message was edited by Velvet on Nov. 14, 2001 at 02:49 PM.]

[Camstock]

Don't sweat it. I'm the one who gave her the Einstein of Dressage moniker. One thing I didn't mention is that Einstein used to habitually get lost in the building on the way back from lunch, wandering around aimlessly until they sent someone to find him. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[suzy]

Your point would be...? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

P.S. and Velvet, as to that appropriate response, back at ya, dearie! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Louise]

I'm afraid that if I had that throwing up booger icon, I'd be tempted to use it entirely too much here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[egontoast]

off my regurgitating icon.I was talking with AvK over lunch and she's not happy at all with the way this thread has turned out. Plus there was false advertising since it was not about boogers at all and she was peeved about that as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DocHF]

who is this "suzy" person anyway?
I think I have figured it out.
SLC kidnapped KBG.
You can see a classic example of "prisoner" syndrome as KBG had to grovel at SLC's feet in several posts, sucking up in such an obsequious manner that the spewing emoticon would surely have been appropos. Now once KBG got over here, he was mistaken for a spy and was not allowed to use his real name, hence the quick sex-change to "suzy". And now I have confirmation, because Velvet obviously helped in kidnapping one of our ODG's.
This thread has nothing at all about sex in it either!
Whatsaboogertodo?
Toodles.

[hushpuppy]

but, I'm going to anyway.

A few years ago, when I could get OLN on TV, I'd watch all the GP jumping I could. I noticed many of the riders would enter the arena and canter around waiting for the bell to announce the beginning of their round. During that canter, many of the riders, particularly the Germans, would flex their mount's heads into that deep frame, first on one side then on the other. I was amazed at how deep those heads would go! I thought this had to be horribly uncomfortable to the horses. The bell would sound and the riders would begin their rounds. Those horses, the ones warmed up "deep," were much rounder and quieter over fences.

I've read the "deep" bashing on these boards for a couple of years now. The hunter/jumper riders seem quite confused about the deep thing, and I might be too. I can say that it's indeed used in warm-up and that it's not only used in the dressage arena.

As for the 4th vertebra thing, if a horse isn't through and connected, regardless of vertebrae, one won't even get a decent trot/walk transition, let alone a leg yield, half-pass or canter pirouette. I think all of us here can attest to that.

*booger proudly representing the wrong side of the tracks*

[DebS]

Night of the living DQ
The Booger Body-Snatchers
Village of the Damned DQs

"It's aliiiiiiiiiiive

boogers don't flop...they bounce...and occasionaly stick to the wall...but NEVER flop

[jl]

If I could get my horses to look like Anky does-I'd gladly get bashed on any BB out there.

(quick,while she's distacted, I'll hit her on the head. Dr HF-grab her arms-Egon-grab her legs-DebS-prop up the middle and run!)

[Velvet]

No kidding. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[egontoast]

of her legs but it 's hollow and reeks of Mike's.

[suzy]

grog -- what's happening? Helllllpppppppp! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[DocHF]

club her again, Egon!http://pub9.ezboard.com/fthehorsecommunitytrainingquestions.showMessage?to picID=840.topic

[egontoast]

On YOU HUSKIES!!

[egontoast]

I've been in contact with Avk again(Ayn van Kassel, my dog groomer)and she's really annoyed about all this...so what were we saying ...if only we could ride that well and so on....and umm stop being unfair to DQs, it's boring!! oh and stop whining, I think that was it....that should get you started back on the right track again....Toodles! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[suzy]

Just get your box of popcorn, pull a chair up next to me, and we can watch one of these videos. The leading man in all of them is that infamous ODG KBG. So, which one are we going to watch?

Night of the living DQ
The Booger Body-Snatchers
Village of the Damned DQs

I thought so.

suzyinsertingtapeinmachine

[suzy]

Quick, turn it off before anyone else sees Maria and Velvet in their birthday suits!!!! Darn you, Eggy, you said the rating was DQ!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[jl]

What in the name of blue blazes is it going to take?
Cajoling?
Beating around the head and buttocks?
Begging and pleading?
Sniveling and whining?
Getting us all kicked out of here because Louise is sick of us sidetracking?
WHAT??????

Back on topic-does anyone have the Gurney half halt video and is it worth getting?

[suzy]

I'm not aware of the Gurney half halt tape, but Jane Savoie has two tapes out "The Half Halt Demystified" Parts 1 & 2.

I think her tapes are pretty good, but if my recollection is right, she doesn't clearly state that she's describing "connecting" half halts as opposed to "collecting" half halts, and this throws a lot of people.

[jl]

but now enquiring minds need the difference explained, bitte,* so that we* won't be confused when we order the tapes.

(*note the use of first names-implying a certain familarity with complete stangers and the royal "we". Not to mention throwing ein klein German.
We are feeling quite pompous today. We thank you in advance for your answer.)

[This message was edited by jl on Nov. 17, 2001 at 10:14 AM.]

[This message was edited by jl on Nov. 17, 2001 at 01:05 PM.]

[Kathy Johnson]

jl, schatze, you are a person after my own heart. We give you permission to address us as Kathy.

The Half Halt Demystified is very clear, and extremely helpful to some of the unterminchen (students in Anglais). Others found it confusing, mostly due to the timing of the Half Halts. Jane clearly defines 3 steps to the Half Halt. However, depending on the ability of the unterminchen, 3 steps take 10, and they end up holding the half halts too long, which rattles pferden.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[jl]

MS Kathy-you are too kind. Quite frankly, I sometimes suspect that the half halt has evolved just to make me crazy.

[egontoast]

the movies....and they were my favourites too

[egontoast]

About HH Demystified....It's 2 tapes , so fairly pricey if you are buying , considering the narrow focus. I think it could have been covered on one tape or less. Also, I think she wants you to hold the HH for about 3 hours or something(haha or was it 3 minutes> )

[suzy]

I'll just wade on in and comment on the CONNECTING as opposed to COLLECTING half halts. Then, everyone can have at it. Okay, the collecting half halt is the brief call to attention in which we ask the horse to articulate his joints better so that we can prepare him for a movement, a transition, or a higher degree of self-carriage. It can be a split second or slightly longer. It involves a brief stilling of the seat, closing of the legs, lengthening of the rider's body, and closing the outside fist. Then the all important release so that the horse can step under and carry himself better.

The connecting half halt can last for a number of strides. It is the placing of both hands on either side of the withers and asking the horse to come evenly into both reins using the same aids as above but for longer. The hands must be still until the moment that the horse goes into the contact and offers to yield - then the rider gives both hands forward evenly. At this point, the horse will offer to lift his back and reach further down if the connecting half halt was correctly executed. The horse is now connected back to front and straight.

Then there is the modified connecting half halt (Yea, yea, so I made this term up. Sue me. No, wait, you'll have to get in line). Anyway, the modified connecting half halt is more of what I see Jane describing in her videotapes. It is the half halt that brings the horse together into a "unit" and is safer to use for less experienced riders than the connecting half halt I described above. The above half halt involves a lot more rider skill because there's a chance that the rider will meet with resistance and has to have good enough timing to circumvent that resistance before it turns into something undesirable such as the horse standing up.

Jane's connecting half halt is good for teaching riders how to get the horse on the aids. Once the horse is reliably on the aids, the rider works on the collecting half halts. Trainers use the longer connecting half halts.

[Kathy Johnson]

Suzy, schatze, why is it so undesirable that the horse stands up? After all, my singing horse always stands up when he goes into his rendition of "Mammy, How I Love Ya."

Teaching the horse to stand up was easy through the use of the modified connecting half halt. Teaching him to stay on pitch was another thing entirely.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[DocHF]

slay me :lol
Here I am just trying to figure out HOW to make my seat still for a stride or two. Connecting half-halt? Just let me figure out how to keep my connection first, ok?

As for making the horse stand up, that is so easy I can even do it. Here's what you do: Squeeze both legs and drive both seat bones into the saddle. At the same time, take the ole death grip on the reins as the horse leaps forward. Teaching him to take a bow after staying on key and singing "Mammy", now that is the next challenge.

This, the thread that will not die, has taken on a new life!

[suzy]

Hey, quit talking dirty before we all get thrown off. I'm really impressed with both of you - Kathy and Dr. HF - your ability to train your pferden to stand and sing is truly an amazing achievement. Ah, you put me to shame; how can I top that? sigh /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jl]

alright-you've talked me out of those tapes- got any other recommendations for my Christmas list?
Like how to perfect the yodeling horse or singing ponies and you?

[Kathy Johnson]

Oh boy, you asked for it:

10. New Victoria's Secrets Equestrian Lineup with Mary Kate and Ashley (or How to Spend A Winter in Jail).
9. Romancing the Half Halt--10 Easy Steps to a Total Whoa.
8. Velvet's Mudwrestling Debut (rated X)
7. Christmas Carols by Kathy's Singing Pferde (subtitled)
6. "Let's Talk About Me, Naturally" by John Lyons
5. "A Chrismas Carol with the Boogers" featuring Kram as Scrooge and KBG as Tiny Tim.
4. Fencing With Hans
3. Lost at C by the ODGs.
2. The Dressage Competitor's Handbook by Suzy Fraser, now available on video!
1. Kalming Kuers: a special holiday performance by N2Deep with SLC as lead vocalist. Also available on Kasette.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Maria]

Good Good Good Good Good

LMO

[Cowgirl]

to hit the Rupiet button on the Calming Kurs video or you won't get the full effect.

Might I also suggest, for fun, all seventeen volumes of the reruns of Fantasian Island.

[Maria]

Alright, you guys can stop now. I am about to pee my pants. :eek

[jl]

can lead to serious chapped thighs.
Been there, done that.
Kathy-huge guffaws.

[rescuemom]

Ya know, it does my heart good to know that this thread is still alive. Louise is probably less thrilled. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BUT HEY! No fair sneaking in actual dressage tips! Cut that out! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Kathy, your list cracked me up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And jl, could you change the phrasing on that so it comes out haiku? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[suzy]

this thread is mellllltttttting... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Maria]

Suzy, how many times have I told you, that silly I've tripped and spilled water on Velvet just doesn't get it anymore. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[cortez]

so check this out. the picture on this page. Deep? Too deep? or just right?

http://www.dressageexcellence.com/alexa.html

www.thistledown.net (http://www.thistledown.net)

[Louise]

That this thread was started on Sept. 8? A little more than a week more and we will have three months under our belt.

Hmmm, I gotta ask Erin. I know that there are threads that are longer in length, but, I wonder if there has been a thread that has stayed active as long. Come to think of it, I have to check out the "Fred" thread on the Breeding Forum. That one might have this beaten.

[DocHF]

there's a thread on the Booger Board about her right now.
As much as I don't like the highest point third vertebrae and behind the verticalappearance on the picture, if you can ignore that, it looks like a happy, forward going, attentive and brilliant horse she is riding. It is hard for me to argue with a method that produces such spectacular movement, even though I cannot yet ride like that even with a good coach who understands "deep".
I really have nothing bad to say about the picture- she is after all, scoring in the high 70's under european judges!

[DQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cortez:
so check this out. the picture on this page. Deep? Too deep? or just right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At first glance I'd say none of the above. Instead - behind the bit...
But then when you take in the whole picture: Nice angles, forward movement, beautiful/happy expression on the horse. I would say just right.

I am sorry... I think the name influenced my second opinion... (should never happen I know! I know! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) Going back to the photo and looking again I have to go my original thought: behind the bit.

[This message was edited by DQ on Dec. 09, 2001 at 09:23 AM.]

[suzy]

This photo shows behind the vertical rather than deep. I'll give this rider the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was just an unfortunate moment that the photographer hit the shutter release. Even the best riders on the best horses have less than perfect moments. It's the overall "picture" that counts.

[Velvet]

Behind the vertical (not behind the bit, that's an entirely different thing than behind the vertical).

Pictures are only a moment in time, but haven't we all noticed that most horses these days are behind the vertical? I don't like it when they're in front of the vertical most of the time either. I guess I'm from the old school where horses are supposed to be as close to "on" the vertical as possible throughout most of the ride.

(Oh, and I don't believe that riding deep creates this situation because I've seen Anky and others "on" the bit.)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[cortez]

Hee hee, figured I could get this all going again! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Does that make me a troll or just a garden variety gnome?

Personally I was wowed by the power of movement in that picture. The hindquarters on that horse are something else. That was the FIRST thing that caught me and then I looked further at his head and neck position.

www.thistledown.net (http://www.thistledown.net)

[Kathy Johnson]

Y'all are so wonderfully tactful.

This 'unfortunate moment' was not only captured in time, but put up on a website.

Calling a spade a spade, I'd say the horse is behind the bit, broken in the wrong vertebra, not over his back, and leg moving rather than back moving. It is not deep, nor is it correct.

I am sure Alexa has much better pictures to feature, but this kind of shot of a leg mover is just the kind breeders and others put forth as "dressage excellence" to deceive the unaware. It is flashy.

Whether or not We (that is the Royal We) can ride as well is not the issue. I still can not ride my way out of a paper back into the light. However, I can look at a photo in a semi-educated fashion and tear it to shreds with the best of them.

The rider is looking ahead nicely and her heels are down. The horse has a lovely shiny coat, but I do not personally care for the fuzzy girth.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Ninja]

It bothers me to see horses behind the verticle. It is NOT correct. I HATE IT! It's most unfortunate that everybody these days seem to be riding with WAAAAAAAAY too much hand and are overbending their horses and are in no way concerned with it (including the coaches). 99% of the photos I see in magazines (incl.COTH), or on websites, or on posters promoting dressage the horses are behind the verticle. Bonfire was always behind the verticle and he won everything, that's not right. Allowing your horse to accept the bit and riding the horses engine not pulling at your horses lips are dressage BASICS and yet the top riders have no concept of that!

If there is one thing I detest about dressage, it is riders who pull their horses noses into their chests and think they are wonderful riders for it. *ICK* Why do people do that!?!? If your horse goes behind the verticle then you are doing something WRONG!! period.

O.K Im done.

[suzy]

I'm glad your brought the most salient point to light -- that dreadful fuzzy girth. That is simply unforgivable!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

>>>If your horse goes behind the verticle then you are doing something WRONG!! period.

Sorry, but I will argue this point. Horses can be very sneaky and get behind the bit and/or the vertical through no fault of the rider. You'll see this a lot with really young horses as they try to find their balance under the rider.

[Kathy Johnson]

Behind the bit vs. behind the vertical

Alexa's is an interesting picture because usually a horse is deemed behind the bit when he has come behind the vertical AND dropped contact.

I think this horse is behind the bit, because it appears that the rider is leaning slightly back and hanging on her curb rein, thus pulling the horse behind the bit. The horse is no longer reaching for contact, but is forced into it. This happens sometimes because of the horse's extravagant movement and the rider's efforts to literally "curb" it or keep it in in check.

Go to the website below and compare the trot extension to Reiner's and Ahlerich's. Notice the forward giving arms, the soft shoulders and elbows which allow the horse to be slightly in front of the vertical. If you drop a plumb line from Ahlerich's nose, it will almost touch his front toe. This give allows the horse to come over his back and makes him a back-mover rather than a leg-mover.

http://www.theequinejournal.com/issue33/lmckee.html

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Peveril]

They are all behind the vertical -- that makes for a lot of unfortunate moments. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[rescuemom]

I still can not ride my way out of a paper back into the light.

Its a paper BAG you're supposed to be able to ride out of, not some mass-market book! Of course if you ride into the light, it will blind you, coming out of the dark that way, and you won't be able to see whether or not the poll is the highest point. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, I can look at a photo in a semi-educated fashion and tear it to shreds with the best of them.

And we cherish this in you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If people don't have non-bashing discussions of "this is what I see and why", how will the lowly beginners among us ever learn to differentiate between correct and incorrect, and why?

[muley]

Thank you for posting the link to the article about Reiner Klimke. It brought tears to my eyes. He was the best. The photos tell the story much better than words could.

http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

I'm aging like fine wine....I'm getting complex and fruity...

[smashing fishnets and feathers]

ok...name that Old(i dont know if she's alive)Woman! and performing a Piaffe on a Welsh Cob/Arab! i can tell you that a well known man trained with her, and that she often rode side saddle..
and for you deep entrepreneurs(as i am one myself), i have found MANY photos of her riding DEEP. Correctly.

The mem'ry of your Saint-like life, It spurs me on through storm and strife; And often at the Throne of Grace, So plain and clear I see your face.

[smashing fishnets and feathers]

and we DARE NOT say she has bad position or incorrect principals... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif the same woman riding THE SAME welsh cob/arab mare in Courbette.

The mem'ry of your Saint-like life, It spurs me on through storm and strife; And often at the Throne of Grace, So plain and clear I see your face.

[smashing fishnets and feathers]

ok last one...
here is the man who trained with the woman riding above. and OH OH LOOKIE LOOKIE! how is he riding??? ..... see if you can tell who this is..

The mem'ry of your Saint-like life, It spurs me on through storm and strife; And often at the Throne of Grace, So plain and clear I see your face.

[suzy]

My socks are halfway into the next county. Tell us more about that courbette photo!!!!!!!!!

[Velvet]

The last "deep" picture looks VERY recent. Were they using that back then? Or now? (Not that I'm against riding deep. Everyone knows I think it's a useful tool.)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[Kathy Johnson]

Time for a hasty discussion of deep vs. forward and down. That's Dorothee Falaskee (sp) of Von Neindorff's.

The gentleman in another unfortunate moment about to perform "die kersplatt" is Thomas Ritter. Because of the odd angle of the photo, which makes it hard to tell, I think the horse is also forward and down, and not deep.

I think neither of these classical riders advocate deep, but are shown riding forward and down. A picture of Dorothee forward and down, please? And perhaps someone could post a photo showing "true deep?"

Rescuemom, I have had my nose buried in that paper back "Dressage for Dummies" for months now. Thanks showing me the light.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[smashing fishnets and feathers]

oh dear me... i attached the wrong picture in that last post! i named some of my files by number, and well, it gets confusing sometimes.. i guess i should rename them with their proper names. Yes, it is Dr. Ritter, and yes his horse is stretching.

Got Schwung?

[smashing fishnets and feathers]

and yes kathy you are correct, that is Dorothee on the welsh cob/arab mare performing both piaffe and courbette. Dr. Ritter trained with her, among other people.

Got Schwung?

[Tin]

o.k first congrats to me for reading the whole 18 pages of this, actually kind of sad that I don't have anything better to do on a friday night..... aw geeze now I want to cry /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyways you guys are hilarious and are opening my eyes to "real" dressage, not just the stuff a fellow boarder used to do and call it dressage because she didn't jump.

Anyhoo I ride hunter, maybe not very well but my main goal is pefection in my disipline (hey there's something in common right?). My coach right now is a level 2 with her background in dressage, though we haven't gotten into a debate about "deep" or vertibraes (which I still don't fully understand, but I should) it's still very present in the work we do. It's wonderful and has improved our hunter/jumper performance greatly ** though I want to make it clear that I do not claim to ride dressage **

I can't comment on anything major that has been written in this thread but I don't think everything is black or white like people hope (or expect?) it to be.

That's it, nothing really to contribute /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<...and a big ol' can of whoop a$$>

[Monica S]

this may not be the longest lived,or have the most posts, but it sure has covered a diverse set of topics - and ranged from serious to amusing, and it even took on a life of its own apart from the contributions of a troll!

Now about the picture of Alexia, this is a horse being 'held together'. This is a common phenomenon in modern dressage, because it is VERY difficult to get a horse to manage this degree of extravagance without support from the rider. Now the question is - do you want to have to hold your horse up with the reins. If that doesn't bother you, and your horse can tolerate it, then you can go 'over the edge' with what you ask in extensions, etc. If you choose as a rider NOT to start being a 5th wheel for your horse, then it will take a bloody long time to develop this amount of extravagance that is actually in Self Carriage, in fact I am not 100% convinced it could really be done.

The 'behind the vertical' appearance is the result of a slight on the forhand carriage. This is NOT behind the bit, because this horse has hardly dropped the contact, instead he is depending on it to stay on his feet!

I will not get into 'right or wrong' because how each of us rides our horses is a personal choice. There is no mistreatment of the horse is becoming a 'forhand enabler' and supporting the front end in extensions. The horse sure doesn't care, heck there are tons of lower level dressage horses who are absolutely Counting on their riders hands to hold them up! So, just as deciding whether to ride Western Pleasure, run barrels or ride dressage is a personal choice, so is the choice as to whether you think dressage requires complete self carriage in the horse, and therefore the nose should reach slightly in front of the vertical, or is a riding partnership that includes some support from the rider's hands which allows the horse to move in a flashy manner that is slightly out of balance, but really cool to watch your goal. And THAT is why people can't agree on deep, not deep, etc, etc. Because it is all a matter of taste, and why would we want to argue whether Purple is prettier than Orange, and vise versa??? m

Things Take Time

[Kathy Johnson]

But I am a disagreeable person. Purple is much prettier than orange.

Seriously, there are rights and wrongs in dressage. There are wrong leads (not deliberate counter-canters), there are shoulder ins that degenerate into leg yields, there are half passes with haunches leading. There are flying changes late behind, walks that pace, missed tempis, false passages, piaffes without sit, and a million other mistakes we all have made or will make. None of them will kill the horse, that is true. But they are not right, nor correct.

They are absolutes because they interfere with the horse's balance. I am specifically addressing Alexa's horse who is pulled behind the vertical when she is supposed to be on the bit. This is a mistake, an unfortunate moment, not a choice or a deliberate way of riding. If it is a deliberate method of riding, it is an incorrect method.

It does happen for the reasons Monica and I cited--the horse's extravagant action. That still does not make it correct, nor an example of "Dressage Excellence." If someone wants to ride that way and post it on their website as an example of "dressage excellence," then they can expect some flak.

Glancing at all the horse's on Alexa's site, I too see a propensity for the horses to be behind the vertical. Some are pulled well behind the vertical, but are not in a deep shape (PC word of the day--outline is passe', Suzy). This is indeed one of the pitfalls of deep; the riders can not ride the horses back up in front of the vertical when they need to. Look at the little mare named Viola on the for sale page below. Notice how low and short her sidereins are on the longe line.

http://www.dressageexcellence.com/shopping.html

I can't go further than that. I would like to conclude that these horses are behind the vertical because they are routinely ridden deep and their riders can't get them back up. But, I can not draw that conclusion from the pictures. I will conclude that the horses are behind the vertical when they are supposed to be on the bit and that is wrong.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[This message was edited by Kathy Johnson on Dec. 03, 2001 at 11:58 AM.]

[Velvet]

Sorry, but this doesn't look behind the vertical to me.

Anky (http://www.junior-riders.com/reports/99adam/psg.html)

or this one

Another Anky picture (http://www.eurodressage.com/news/focus/foc_anky.html)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[lisalou]

Kathy
Does this book really exist, or are you pulling our collective legs? If it does, I may have just found my "bible" : /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[slc2]

the 2 anky photos linked above do not show a behind the vertical horse. the first one is quite a lot in front of the vertical, the second one less so, but still in front.

i would say the piaffe on the pictures above of the lady is very incorrect. the balance of the horse is incorrect, the position of the legs and the rider position and aids is incorrect, the horse is falling forward on to the forehand, so that is why the extreme sit behind and the hind legs coming into such an extreme sit. this is a bad way to piaffe as it strains too much the horse and no transitions can be done correctly, nor can the piaffe be sustained, he will fall out of it.

for further discussion of why that piaffe is incorrect, look at decarpentry's book on piaffe and passage, called prosaically enough, ''Piaffe and Passage''.

as someone once said just because foreleg is up and there is sit doesn't mean it is correct piaffe. there has to be balance and correctness, and it gives lie to the saying, ''too much is never enough''.

too much sit IS too much sit, it is an evasion and a problem.

if you think it is a good piaffe in the pictures, i wish you all the best and hope you have a wonderful dressage journey. i just happen to feel it is not a picture of a good piaffe. in fact extremely bad. this is not to condemn rider or trainer or horse, it is just one moment and perhaps other moments were better, but the image shown is not correct.

[This message was edited by slc on Dec. 03, 2001 at 02:24 PM.]

[mbp]

Velvet - luv this - ANKY is retaining her title as "unbeatable tank girl" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Does this mean we can call her Sherman?

BTW, Joker, in your 1st pic, is 1/2 TB thank you very much. Anky seems to do very well with hot or hotter horses, something that can't be said for each and every of the ODGs. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[slc2]

anky's first horse and the one she won dutch national YR champs on was prisco a thoroughbred and very very very hot.

but most of the competition horses are very hot.

[Ninja]

Holy cow batman a photo of Bonfire and he's not behind the verticle! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

BTW I love the top photo of Anky and the horse is certainly not behind the verticle...looks great!

I have nothing against the way Anky rides and I have seen her ride several different horses very well but for some reason Bonfire almost ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) always seems to be dipping behind the verticle.

[slc2]

there was definitely a reason for that. she doesn't work junior or others the same way. but also several people just out and out strove to get bad pictures of her and taking some extreme moments wanted to make it seem as if she always schools like that.

it's just as valid to say kyra always rides like the last photo in her book.

[This message was edited by slc on Dec. 03, 2001 at 05:28 PM.]

[egontoast]

just check out 'trying the young prospect on saddletude'...chuckle chuckle......it's just silly to say she doesn't ride the juniors behind the vertical.......they don't claim not to do this and it is apparently part of the deep training they espouse if you read their articles on it...it's not a question of photographers catching a zillion 'bad moments'. i suspect she doesn't view them as bad moments.

[slc2]

no, there is a reason she does it, but the position she puts junior in is different from the position she put the bonfire horse in. there's a method to the madness egon.

i have no inside knowledge, except one friend i talk to occasionally who trains with her and sjeff for a few weeks a year. she seems to have some handle on how and when and why to do this - and unlike others actually seems to get some good out of it. i don't think most people who try it really understand it or get any good out of it.

but it isn't even necessary to talk to my friend as this has all been written up in dozens of magazines time and time again, ad nauseum ad finitum.

people do try to get bad photos of her, that was also covered pretty generously on various web sites and articles. one photographer was very clear about that in fact, can't remember his name but he was very clear that was what he was trying to do.

i'm not schooling my horse that way, egon, so there's no need to try and start a big debate with me. i'm not in favor OR against deep schooling. i'm just watching, learning and pondering.

i think there is highly emotional diatribe on BOTH SIDES, and that it will take some time for the method to be proven or disproven. i don't really think there will ever be a totally clear decision or a totally clear view of the ruckus. everyone will just have to decide themselves if they want to do it or not.

for myself, i have made the decision to avoid trainers who EITHER are adamantly FOR OR AGAINST deep schooling. and frankly i don't find that really knowledgeable trainers EVER TOTALLY discount one method or another. the key is knowing when a method is appropriate and why, and knowing when to say, ''time for plan b''.

you will hear classicist say to never made haunches in at canter, and you will hear classicists say never move the hind end to make straight, always move the shoulders.

but it depends on what is wrong.

if the horse simply has his shoulders to the outside, do not move the haunches out, move the shoulders in a classicist would say. but if he is extremely stiff through hips, positioning the haunches may be the only way to improve that.

[egontoast]

if you read my post again you'll see i am not entering the debate about the pros and cons on deep. I only took issue with you saying that she doesn't ride juniors behind the vertical. It appears that she does...I make no comment on whether that's good or bad.

Could you please give us the source for these comments:
"people do try to get bad photos of her, that was also covered pretty generously on various web sites and articles. one photographer was very clear about that in fact, can't remember his name but he was very clear that was what he was trying to do"

[slc2]

i didn't think she didn't ride junior behind the vertical, but he is not schooled the same as the other horse either. he is a different horse.

i also saw sale tape maybe it was, of her trying a young horse and believe me egon i was sitting there thinking holy jesus, this is nuts what in the name of he** is she doing to that horse. so i guarantee i'm in the ''definitely undecided'' and at times the what the he** category on this issue.

i can't remember who had the sale tape, nor can i give you a source for the comment you quoted. i can't remember where i read it. so it's probably made up, huh, egon. fact is i read it quite some time ago and i just don't remember where.

[Velvet]

Go out to this site and look for the Equitana Masters Class with Anky van Grunsven.

Anky Masters Class (http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/tve/)

You have to dig a bit to find it (there's no direct URL).

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[egontoast]

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the source of your comments about photographers deliberately trying to get bad photos and saying one photographer admitted it. Is this just from idle internet discussions (like these:rolleyes:) or if not , who was the photograher and what did he say.

Also, on the other point, In response to someone else above commenting on Bonfire being behind the vertical a lot, you responded that she doesn't ride junior and the others that way. I disagree,. She does appear to ride lots of them behind the vertical, and not just in aunauthorized photos. ...but AGAIN, i make no comment on whether that's good or bad.

[slc2]

perhaps i wasn't clear. once again, the horses all get ridden in various positions, some deeper and more behind than others. anky herself says each one gets schooled somewhat differently, so does sjeff, the student i mentioned, and all the articles i read with interviews from proponents of the method. no one including them says any one horse of theirs is always in front of vertical or never deep; nor do they say they are always deep and always behind, and this is independent of whether they're currently being shown or not.

and when i saw her tape of junior, he was warmed up differently than the bonfire horse. he was more often up in an unrolled position.

then i have another tape of her schooling another horse and it is never once put deep or behind the vertical during the whole schooling session.

that one she is in show clothes i think so she is most likely schooling before taking that horse in the ring, but she rides several at most shows so can't say for sure about that specific occasion. but what i see i have to say in general goes along pretty well with what she has said on numerous occasions.

and while the thing about the photographer wasn't in a web site discussion, but an article, i still don't remember the year/month or the publication. and i probably never will. sorry.

[egontoast]

that was interesting. Hands without legs/legswithout hands is a method my last coach used to get horse more responsive to forward aids. I do notice from the masterclass photos that 'deep' appeared to be the remedy for all the horses, didn't see any not ridden deep.

HEY, I just report what i see and make no comment on these things being right or wrong (HAHA, my new signature line)

[mbp]

deliberately chartreuse!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'm just green with envy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif chuckle

I thought the Anky article was interesting - hands no legs, legs no hands. Put me in the mind of some of Kyra's "stop and go" approach.

I'm still trying to decide if "unbeatable tank girl" lost (or added) something in the translation

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[BoldChance]

I have to say I'm impressed with the MasterClass.

I'm one of those people who has ALWAYS been told "leg into hand. hand and leg. When you ask for downward transitions, and halts, use your leg too!" etc...and LOTS of hand with LOTS of leg for otb/etc...

Well.. recently purchased first horse (actually, my dad purchased. merry christmas to me!), and, albeit EXCEPTIONALLY green (w/t/c, is balanced, but that's about it), too much rein just makes his head come UP. when I remind myself to DITCH the rein, or lengthen it a couple inches, suddenly he's there.

I've also been told to always use leg, and LOTS of it. The stronger the leg, the better. I still don't know what to think re: that one...

OTOH, maybe, lower level horses don't require the same "hand or leg, no both" regime??

I don't know. I'd certainly be interested in learning more about it.

*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
Lindsay & Chance
"The problem is not that I am insane,
it's the everyone else is sane."
&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

[cortez]

So here is the other end of the scale. What do you all think of this picture?

http://www.if-wishes-were-horses.com/NunoExTrot.html

www.thistledown.net (http://www.thistledown.net)

[canyonoak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cortez:
So here is the other end of the scale. What do you all think of this picture?

http://www.if-wishes-were-horses.com/NunoExTrot.html

_____________________________________________


Wow.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

a helluvalotta WOW's

"I dont know about that guy...with his long coat, top hat and that..cane...What, are you OUTING Mr.Peanut???"

[lisalou]

Beautiful. The horse is using its whole body, and not just throwing its legs around.

[Kathy Johnson]

>Hands without legs/legs without hands is a method my last coach used to get horse more responsive to forward aids.

OMG! Here I thought I had this brilliant original idea "hands w/o legs, legs w/o hands" and now I find that Anky and somebody's coach are stealing my thoughts.

"Hands without legs and legs without hands" is the battle cry of the Baucherists, for Pete's sake. Are we supposed to be impressed with this?

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[canyonoak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy Johnson:
>Hands without legs/legs without hands is a method my last coach used to get horse more responsive to forward aids.

OMG! Here I thought I had this brilliant original idea "hands w/o legs, legs w/o hands" and now I find that Anky and somebody's coach are stealing my thoughts.

"Hands without legs and legs without hands" is the battle cry of the Baucherists, for Pete's sake. Are we supposed to be impressed with this?

______________________________________________

Hands without legs, legs without hands..

If these words came out of Sjef Janssen's mouth, I would KNOW he was putting everyone on.

I can only wonder if Anky has finally decided to start putting everyone on as well.

[egontoast]

"Hands without legs and legs without hands" is the battle cry of the Baucherists, for Pete's sake. Are we supposed to be impressed with this"

please don't hate us because we are igno-baucherists /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[slc2]

i think the last photo shows a horse that has his hind legs a mile wide apart making some sort of trot, and is very incorrect too. it is a very bad example.

[egontoast]

you must have xray vision to make that statement about the hindlegs and declare it to be incorrect.

[Maria]

Just gotta make it to 20 pages.

[Maria]

Just one more....

[Maria]

Well, maybe another

[Maria]

Ahhhhhh, there did it.

That's my contribution.

[slc2]

i've seen the original of the photo without the background cut off - that photo's been floating around for many many years in various formats, and has been done to death many times on different websites. the shadows in the original make it more obvious, but you can see it even in this one.

some years ago i was watching a well regarded local do her test and remarked on the excellent extended trot.

got myself wacked on the head with a cat for my comment. those legs must have been three feet apart. on the horse, not the cat. after a very pedantic and lofty lecture from an R judge on how grave and severe a fault that kind of er...''engagement'' represents, now i always look.

[cortez]

whacked on the head with a cat? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

too funny, haven't heard that one! BTW what's a punam?

www.thistledown.net (http://www.thistledown.net)

[rescuemom]

Now that you've boosted this thing to 20 pages, what do ya wanna talk about?

[Maria]

Hmmmmmm, lets see, how 'bout rileyt's wanton desire to become a DQ. So sad really, she just can't seem to pull it off.

rileyt, now your fly is down.

[egontoast]

If that's your opinion, fine and dandy,but puleese, just because something is done to death on various websites doesn't make it true...ditto what some clinician says about ANOTHER horse being wide behind. EGAD!

I have seen this photo in his book and I don't know if there was background or not but I still doubt anyone could (or would even bother to try) to determine how wide apart the hind legs are unless they airbrushed out acouple of haybales he was straddling(perhaps you have access to the original negatives).....but do carry on .......or post something that is not in your view so terrible as NUNO for an example. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[slc2]

oh there are plenty of good shots of nuno. i used to have one that would curl your hair, though, LOL. whooo-eee, from when he was young - the horse's mouth wide open, back dropped a mile, it was not pretty. it was in a horse magazine and presented to complement nuno's ability...i was like...eeeh chihuaha, get a better photo.

just goes to show you, a picture is not always representative. it's just one moment. but...you mean if you look at the horse's back end, you can't see it egon? i believe you, i'm just...surprised. different strokes for different folks i guess. maybe everyone looking at a photo sees different things.

punam means face in yiddish.

look at that punam is what dr. evil said when his son scott accused mini-me of being a psychotic killer. then mini-me looked appealing and innocent.

i only said i don't read trash books. watching trash movies is FINE.

yup a cat. but i lied. the woman just wacked me with her printed show program and said 'atsa notta good trot.

the cat. now the cat was in the parking lot at mary yoder's family restaurant AFTER the show (when we drove away, hilda gurney was out there in the dust and 100 degree temperatures schooling a kid - the woman is amazing...anyhow).

when we went in, we saw the cat. it did not look like it was long for this world.

so i can say we were one of the few dinner parties that almost got kicked out of yoder's for loudly inquiring about their blue plate special - was it true it would be ''MEOW-LICIOUS?''

[egontoast]

when are we going to talk about "sexism" as advertised in the title. My dog groomer is concerned that this brief thread is going off course again /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[suzy]

You wanna talk sexism, you ignorant s___! How's that for a start? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[egontoast]

Who you callin spaghetti!!I done chased you off one board and I sure as heck can do it agin! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[suzy]

You DID NOT chase me off of any board!!!! You give yourself far too much credit. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (wish I could make this emoticon ROTF and WHP, hehehe). I didn't really appreciate being hurled on -- or at least, I'm told I was hurled on; I can't always be sure. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Nope, I'm counting on you to stay here so that I can have my daily dose of egg on toast. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[egontoast]

steal that little blue regurgitron for over here...I am really going to need it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[suzy]

NO WAY! You are exactly the reason that Louise won't make that emoticon available to us. The dry cleaning bills submitted to the Chronicle would get her into deep trouble not to mention troubling explanations! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[egontoast]

can we at least have the little green dry heaver? I sure am glad this thread is back on track.

[Louise]

that just looking at the thing makes me want to get sick in sympathy.

[egontoast]

But this is a very informative thread. Did you know , for instance, that Nuno was in the Spy Who Shagged Me? Dressage is everywhere! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Kathy Johnson]

It was around page 10 I think.

Now that I have to go back to another page, because of you Maria, thank you very much, I will have another look at Nuno's picture.

I think Nuno's horse's head is slightly tilted. I don't know why I say this. He doesn't look quite straight, through the neck and jaw. Also, whoever did the matting job on the photo did a not so hot job. (It was probably that darn Weegee again). Something is not right with with the left hind. I would love to see the original pic in its original background.

But, if I had to place the photos I would place Reiner first, Nuno second, Anky third and Alexa fourth. Reiner's and Nuno's horses are in the same suspension phase of the trot. Alexa's and Anky's are in the phase before suspension.

Reiner's horse has more suspension than Nuno's,and he appears to be straighter. Anky is a master of "riding her horses down and showing them up." She can get them back in front of the vertical, but not everyone can. Anky's trot looks powerful but not as light as Nuno's. The parollelograms of her horse's legs are not quite perfect--he could use more push behind, and more bending of the hock.

Alexa's curb rein is the antithesis of Nuno's, whose horse is travelling in lightness, where Alexa's looks to be pulling.

Now, we can probably find some sexism there. Anyone else want to play judge?

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[slc2]

nuno played dr. evil. it's a little known fact.

[Kathy Johnson]

LOL. I knew that!

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Maria]

Glad I could be of service Kathy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Maria]

Yeeeeee haaaaa, got it to 21.

[suzy]

KKJ wrote: I think Nuno's horse's head is slightly tilted.

Oh Kathy, get up from your reclining position, would you?! It's Nuno's head that's tilted, not the horse's.

I do believe that Eggy played Dr. Evil's cat. Oh wait, no. Eggy played the homicidal son. Yea, that's it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[mbp]

someone once told me the world was tilted, but then again, he thought the universe revolved around him.

Come to think of it, he may have told me I was wide behind. Ad-Duck-Tion, that's what we need. Ad-duck-tion.

[canyonoak]

From what I hear from a friend who actually did go study with The Master, he was quite the pig to be around.

On the other hand...there is so much COOL stuff in the photo of the trot...to bitch about the hind legs...hmm.

Young horses, horses that are not sufficiently strong, will spraddle when asked for more engagement--yes, they will go wide.

I for one suspect that is why The Big O is asking for more of a medium here.Not to mention riding completely off the snaffle. Yup==that pony aint strong enough. Yet.

But the horse looks happy and energized and balanced.

ANd I do not think anyone can complain about That Seat. And back.And stomach. And legs.

Any takers?

And--although my head reels from even trying to follow this thread--where is the photo of Dr Klimke that is being referred to above??

cheers,

[Kathy Johnson]

but here are the 4 extended trot pix in order: Reiner, Nuno, Anky, Alexa.

http://www.theequinejournal.com/issue33/lmckee.html

http://www.if-wishes-were-horses.com/NunoExTrot.html

http://www.junior-riders.com/reports/99adam/psg.html

http://www.dressageexcellence.com/alexa.html

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[egontoast]

I am unworthy to even rate them ...let me say that first....but if I was worthy I'd agree except not sure about the order ofthe last 2 unless you just look at head and neck and not the parallelogram(how Do you spell that) and you can't 't really call them all ex-trots.

Oh and Suzy, re: hurling on you
I was hurling in grief ,sick with worry, couldn't keep a Thing down!

Hurlingwithyounotatyou.....the evil one /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[This message was edited by Egon Trip on Dec. 07, 2001 at 07:34 AM.]

[slc2]

i too am unworthy to rate them. so like the rest of the world i will proceed to rate them, chuckle.

reiner - HO-OH-OLY SANTA MARIA! WOW! that is fancy. just about over the edge.

nuno - yes happy pony and good sitting. and losing the back end asking for too much. but that is how you get more, by asking for too much some times, eventually it comes right if the horse is strong. sometimes you take risks, because if horse is not strong it won't come right and will stay like that. judges nail the wide behind horses at medium and extended trot for a very, very, very good reason. most will tell you it is THE worst fault a horse can have at medium or extended trot, i mean, other than not HAVING one.

ankster - yes that is really nice and correct.

last one - this is bad. it is what they call all the generals out in front and no soldiers bringing up the rear. there is only bending at the hocks, no engagement, one friend calls it ''chicken steppin'''. at that point the hind leg should come through. also the head and neck is not good.

i think the hardest time people have looking at especially extended trot is it should NOT look spectacular, there should be no toe flipping and no exaggerated stepping front or behind. no ''generals out in front'' with the forelegs flying everywhere and the back legs dragging along behind.

i don't know if anyone saw the borsalino horse at essen that got a 10 on its extended trot a few years ago, but it is rare for horse to do that, to get a ten on that movement.

they shot horse from knees and hocks up, and it looked like NOTHING. rider is just sitting, horse is going bink bink bink as regular as a clock, same rhythm as the other trots. exactly the same. happy little face on horse.

you're sitting there watching thinking, ''THIS WAS A TEN?''

then they pan down to the feet.

the feet are 12 inches off the ground.

then they show the scenery going by.

quickly.

[This message was edited by slc on Dec. 07, 2001 at 09:19 AM.]

[canyonoak]

1. Dr K and Ali

well..I was there at Santa Anita, volunteering my little heart out for a chance to watch people/horses like this up close.
My first realization that Dr. K has balls of titanium: after countless one-tempis all around the racetrack (I have all this on cherished videotape thanks to a friend in the stands) and various other one-handed maneuvers...the pair took off down the long side towards the tunnel in an extended trot that grew and grew--notice Dr has TWO hands on the reins at this point--and as he WHOOSHED past us into the tunnel--where he grabbed for dear life as he did not have a death wish==I really thought there were a couple of strides where Ali's feet never touched ground==but then realized I just could not hear the footfalls over his roaring breath..

yes. it was an eventer's heart wedded to a dressage rider's brain. a lawyer's intelligence to a poet-athlete's body.

2. Nuno O. Well, I dont know anything about this photo, but I continue to believe it is a young horse. And Nuno O continues to amaze and fascinate me. I really believe the top horsemen find it physically uncomfortable to be on a horse that is out of balance--that they feel a NEED to find real balance. And I first got this idea from thinking about Nuno O's face...

3. Anky is not doing an extended trot here. I think it is a really nice photo and deserves to be with the other two--a horse that looks in balance and engaged and basically a partner.

4. Alexa S-B on mare.

Well, now that she will have Dr. S-B's FULL attention, as Isabell W has left the barn..I REALLY hope he fixes this kind of stupid non-process.If I cut the reins..the result aint pretty.

cheers.

[slc2]

she is just inexperienced, canyon. everyone rides like that for a time. i've watched many juniors over the years come up thru the ranks and you can put them on the best trained horse in the country and they just look like this for a while. it's part of learning.

i'm not knocking juniors, this is true for everyone, but isn't as obvious if the person doesn't have the exposure or try to do the things the juniors have to do.

a person who tries to do more and tries to move up, like the juniors trying to go to the young rider championship, are just more obvious and more in the public eye. but this is same for everyone.

we just don't want to get fossilized at that point, the point is to keep trying to get better, not to start out perfect.

[mysta]

Could the horse everyone says is wide behind be due to his private parts?

[egontoast]

but then I am a creampuff. That photo didn't look too much different than anything you might see in a World Cup , not necessarilly wonderful but in keeping with the trends.

Mysta, those titanium neuticals can be painful

[slc2]

judges give no breaks for extra tackle.

[suzy]

I knew they were wrong and that you would NEVER hurl ON me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

suzyhurlinginyourgeneraldirection

[Velvet]

It's interesting to armchair QB, but as they say, opinions are like a** h****s. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them. So, we go to shows and pay for opinions from those we DO want to hear from and what we are doing out here really doesn't mean much. (This is for all of you neophytes who are being confused by this display of AR DQ-ness.)

Velvetwhoadmittedlyhasone /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[egontoast]

that's so >GAG< touching

egyawningintechnicolouronthebigwhitetelephonenotet hecdnspellingofcolour

"Velvetwhoadmittedlyhasone"
Oh velvet,let's hear it,come on, you want to..

[canyonoak]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
It's interesting to armchair QB, but as they say, opinions are like a** h****s. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them.
Velvetwhoadmittedlyhasone /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_____________________________________________


But geeze, Velvet, what ELSE is there to do in cyberland-dressage BUT armchairQB, make lofty assessments, take on the entire dressage pantheon,re-train absolutely EVERYone and their horse...??

On another note, and here I feel like the hooded mesenger, Chacomo has definitely been put to sleep.
The de Ridders hoped to retire him, but he was going into more and more distress, so they did what had to be done.

I shall always remember him dancing.

[Velvet]

I just wanted to make sure all of the newbies out there understood that what we are doing is just an exercise in futility. (Well, with the exception of insulting each other out here, that is.) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I didn't want to mislead them, or anything. Or make them believe that we are the be all and end all--except in our own minds and on this board. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, wait, I forgot, suzy and I ARE still the biggest, er, experts even off this board. Yeah, yeah, THAT's the ticket. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(I hope suzy realizes she was only included because I've been under stress lately and am not paying attention to what I'm doing until it's too late.)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

with the definition of an expert being

expert, n. (pron. x-spurt)

X = an unknown quantity
spurt = a drip under pressure

Yup, we're experts all right!!!

[slc2]

experts my eye. we're just yakking here. i think it's good for people to see just how many different views there are of a thing, and to realize the ancient mantra of the east that will always soothe and enlighten you, which is just what someone said = opinions - everyone's got one.

[neighsayer]

I just like to keep in mind that my opinion is worth exactly what you all pay for it. And I value yours with the same degree /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Except for Velvet's...I just skip over her posts /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[DocHF]

sl*t- mare in heat

tart- mare not in heat

ignorant motherf*cking wh*re- mare who has just kicked you whilst trying to examine her genitalia to determine if she has hidden her heat.

angel-mare who has just given birth to the perfect warmblood baby

[DebS]

not enough boogers.

[Velvet]

Booger, booger, booger, booger,
booger, booger---BOOGER!! BOOGER!!!

Booger.

(Pick the tune. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[slc2]

sl*t actually was the term for a female dog, look it up in dictionary.

[neighsayer]

do you not mean b*tch?

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Kathy Johnson]

I honestly gave up looking up dirty words in the dictionary in the seventh grade. Really, I did.

Except for foreign dirty words. Those, someone usually takes the time to teach to me. Why is that? When you go to a new country, the first words people teach you are the dirty ones.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Maria]

Because in general we are all a bunch of trash mouths.

[Velvet]

Speak for yourself! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[HeyYouNags]

I need new pet names for the nags.

All those years of French class, and the only good word I learned was "merde". (Can I type that on the BB?)

[Velvet]

Well...I was trying to stop swearing, but maybe you'll like this French word: Foutre.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[Gry2Yng]

Wow, work is abysmally slow, so I came over from the eventers board and have successfully read all 22 pages (count went up from 21 to 22 as I was reading). You guys are really fun/funny!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[slc2]

the word bit** came into use later. the earlier term was sl**.

you can read old books on dogs and the terms were at one point not swearing at all. they became swearing recently, they didn't start that way.

neither did fu**. it was a german word for what farm animals do to make more little farm animals. it never referred to hominids and wasn't swearing.

nor was sh**. it was an old english word for what farm animals make, other than more little farm animals.

basically nearly all obscene words were once just ordinary usage. in english there was a caste system reflected in the language. the old english anglo saxon words wound up becoming swearing, originally they were just how poor people and farmers talked. eventually the norman french and latinic words became proper and the low class anglo saxon words became swearing.

it's even in terms for animals vs. meat.

meat is porc, beef etc. french words for what it is when it is on the table of the french lord.

the animal in the barnyard is anglo saxon words, pig, cow, horse, etc, for while the anglo saxon doofus farmer/impoverished uneducated near-slave conquored person is taking care of it.

when winston churchill wanted to really grab ahold of his british audience he dispensed with all latinic or norman french words in his speech and used only anglo saxon words: ''we will meet them on the beaches....''

[Mogwai]

From what i understand Fu** means "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" from back in the days of the scarlett letter, not a good thing to be accused of at the time. I have never heard the German barn animal story before...

[Velvet]

Here's a few:

sh**
Etymology: alteration of earlier shite, from Middle English shiten, from Old English -scItan; akin to Old High German scIzan to defecate and probably to Old English scEadan to separate

f***
Etymology: akin to Dutch fokken to breed (cattle), Swedish dialect fokka to copulate

sl**
Etymology: Middle English slutte

bi***
Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce

And that, my friends, is the English lesson on swear words for the day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[neighsayer]

We can always count on Velvet /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I hear she's spent a lot of time with sailors and that's actually where her research comes from.

* * * *

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[Velvet]

I'm blushing at the compliment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[canyonoak]

she is just inexperienced... everyone rides like that for a time. i've watched many juniors over the years come up thru the ranks and you can put them on the best trained horse in the country and they just look like this for a while. it's part of learning.

_______________________________________________


Alexa S-B is an ADULT..this is not Ellen S-B, the grand-daughter..who not only rides GP, but just won some hotsy-totsy German prize for being winningest GP rider under 25 .

I could be wrong (gee? really?)but I think Alexa is Dr S-B's daughter, roughly the same age as Uwe, her brother..and heaven knows, there is a lot worse riding out there than this photo, but it is not in the same class as the others..

OK..just trying to keep those S-B's straight...

[DocHF]

l*cture:

I liked Velvet's better.


who needs schwung if you've got scha-winggg

[slc2]

i think if she rides like that she's inexperienced. or it is just a bad moment and the rest was better perhaps.

i just came from clinic and everyone pretty much was riding like that. people do that.

[Maria]

Doing what I do best. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DocHF]

I thought slc had succesfully killed this thread!

[Velvet]

Never shall this thread die. It MUST go on...and on...and on. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[This message was edited by Velvet on Dec. 10, 2001 at 03:50 PM.]

[suzy]

"Nev-ah shall this threat die."

Is that one of those Freudian slips or camisoles?

[Velvet]

It will be a choice between work or posting on these boards. Hmmmm...I wonder which one will win.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[BoldChance]

I'm sure you guys can aspire ;-)

As for me, I need to perfect my theoretical knowledge so when I go home to ride my horse in a week, *I* can get some idea of what on earth he's doing, when HE doesn't even know.

Is that talent, or what? hehehe

*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
Lindsay & Chance
"The problem is not that I am insane,
it's the everyone else is sane."
&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

[Monica S]

Merde - French for Sh*t

Just wanted to keep the thread alive, and this is the only cuss word I recall from French 1&2 in High School - which was about a million years ago. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 120 pages huh? Just proves JR have too much time on their hands. Now, what is OUR excuse? m

Things Take Time

[BoldChance]

Not sure what it means, but, being french, I do know it's bad. Calisse (not sure on spelling) is another one.

Lot of people around home go "Calisse de Chris(t) de Tabernac".. not sure how correct it is, but it's something.

Funny that I'm extremely fluent in french, yet don't TRULY know any swear words /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But since you guys LIKE them so much.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
Lindsay & Chance
"The problem is not that I am insane,
it's the everyone else is sane."
&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

[Louise]

Wait, I've forgotten what the track is!!!

I'm getting a little nervous about all this swearing stuff. I'm afraid Erin might fire me, and replace me with Terrible Brunhilde! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I know! Why not start an argument (er discussion) about three-tracking vs. four-tracking. We haven't done that in a while. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DQ]

Do you think that the trend toward the straighter flapped saddles put riders in a position that predisposes riding a horse behind the bit (a la hanging on for support)?

Or we could have a food fight... DQ flings a strawberry tart at Velvet /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sole: The foundation in
ladies footwear.
Soul: Ladies footwear....

[Monica S]

besides, I prefer to refer to it as 'footpaths' rather than tracks - because how can a horse be on 3 tracks in his 'two track work'. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now I hope that actually discussing something about dressage offsets my earlier lapse in offering french swear words! I don't want to upset Erin - heck just the Thought of "Brunhilda" makes me nervous! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif m

Things Take Time

[Kathy Johnson]

>because how can a horse be on 3 tracks in his 'two track work'?

That question has been confounding the dressage community for decades. A very important question, I think.

This is my best guess. The first track actually consists of 2 rails. When the horse is travelling straight, he is on one track, like a railroad track.

When you put him on 2 tracks, say for shoulder in, he is on his first track, plus you have laid another rail, or track. So you have 2 tracks, the original consisting of 2 rails, and then the second track, consisting of 1 rail.

I think footpaths is a much clearer term.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Velvet]

In shoulder in, you are on three tracks.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[DocHF]

that I scribed for this summer, who insisted that the only correct shoulder-in was on four tracks.
In one of my more tactful moments I declined to advise her that most of the great classicists describe the shoulder-in on three or four tracks depending on the degree of bend and the level of the horse. So's I don't get off track, I will now switch to Kathy's nomenclature.

Shoulder-in on three tracks, has the inside hind falling on the foot path of the outside fore, the outside hind following its own footpath and the inside fore creating a third footpath. This is what we mostly see in lower level competition. On four tracks, the forefeet travel on footpaths that are entirely inside the footpaths followed by both hinds. I have rarely seen this done correctly except on videotape by a master- mostly it looks like leg yield, or gets perverted by the degree of neck bend and loses engagement behind.

The judge gave everyone (Basic3/4/second level) 5's if they were on 3 footpaths and 3's and 4's if they only showed shoulder fore, where the outside fore travels in between the footpaths created by the two hinds.

DrHFmerrilytravelingdownthegardenpath

[rescuemom]

Velvet IS a strawberry tart. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kathy Johnson]

>But In shoulder in, you are on three tracks.

You are on three rails, one track of two rails and an extra rail or track. This translates to two tracks. Think of it like laying a railroad (well, don't go there). This is the only way I can ever understand anyone using the term two track, which generically seems to cover all lateral movements except leg yield.

A s-i on 4 tracks has a foot on every rail, 4 different ones. It takes a lot of collection or it degenerates into leg yield as, Dr. H. says.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Velvet]

You are on three tracks, as opposed to two tracks, when the legs are moving in a specific direction and the one behind is following the tracks of the ones in front. So, when you are doing shoulder in, you are on three tracks since there is a clearly defined "track" that the leading fore is on, one for the outside foreleg and inside hind and the last is for the outside hind.

That's my definition.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[neighsayer]

semantics! This conversation could on for weeks and we'd all be saying the same thing in different terms.

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[neighsayer]

And most of those french swear words originate from name of things used in the church.

Tabernacle, Chalice, etc. Very insulting to a stringly catholic francophone.

http://communities.msn.ca/KristinSaunders/PhotoAlbums

[slc2]

the horse is on two tracks, one for the front, one for the back.

movements in which the forelegs are on a different line than the hind legs are called two track work in old books. some old books call two track work any work where the horse crosses his legs and goes sideways.

his feet however make three lines of foot prints in the dirt in shoulders in.

the shoulder comes in so outside fore and inside hind make only one track. that makes 3 lines of hoof prints on the ground.

outside hind, the pair of outside fore and inside hind, and inside fore.

in position or shoulder fore the angle is not so much, there are four lines of hoof prints, but prints from outside fore are farther toward middle of ring than prints of outside hind.

what i'll never get is jenn saying horses make 6 beats.

if they had two more legs, i could see it. when my horse drops he can do 5 beat work. but 6?

[suzy]

For an example of a 6 beat walk, you'll probably have to visit Kathy Johnson. Heck, if she can get horses to sing and dance, then a 6 beat walk should be a piece of cake! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Please report back and be sure to include photos.

[slc2]

i can post a photo of my horse doing a 5 beat walk.

the aid for the 5 beat walk is to lead a mare without a saddle on in front of him.

it also works if someone leads a pony under 10 hands of either gender into the barn, but perhaps that isn't very classical.

i discovered this in an ancient work on classical dressage that was published in 1698 by the famous alberto di grisone, better known as ''illegitimi grisone'', the illegitimate son of the original grisone, and hailed by some as even more of a genius than his ashamed papa.

he is quoted in a delightful book available only in the original german and authored by utta berolge, the incredible dressage master from whom i learned everything i know.

oh the many delightful hours i spent observing the masterful techniques of utta in her adopted home of venezuela.

the rumors of her nazi connections are totally false.

[suzy]

The Seven Beat Walk

I discovered this in an ancient work called "Classical Shmassical Dressage" that was published in 1608 by Udidda G'terpreggie, illegitimate son of Idinna G'terpreggie and hailed by some as even a more convincing twister of the facts than his unashamed pond slime papa.

He is quoted in a delightful book available only in the original Sanskrit and authored by Ima Charlatan, the incredible dressage master from whom I learned everything I know.

Oh the many delightful hours I spent observing the masterful techniques of Ima in her exiled home of I-know-where-but-won't-tell.

Most rumors regarding Ima are easily confirmed. Nazi connections, mob connections, Barbie Doll collector, license plate maker - they're all true, I tell you.

BTW, slc. I'm way ahead of you -- 1311 to your measley 1068. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[This message was edited by suzy on Dec. 11, 2001 at 02:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by suzy on Dec. 11, 2001 at 02:12 PM.]

[Velvet]

I finally have you, suzy!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> there all true, I tell you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that would be "they're all true".

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

What ARE you talking about? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Maria]

YES!!!!!

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP

Kudos to Velvet for finally getting suzy for a spelling boo boo.

Maria doing a happy dance 'cuz goodness knows I have been caught waaaaayyyyyyy too many times by Ms. Suzy's perrrrrfect grammar and spelling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Velvet]

suzy has been caught!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*Maria and Velvet are off to do a happy dance*

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

I was testing you, you dolts!!!:rolleyes: /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The two of you dancing should be very entertaining. Both with left feet and with counting skills that are second only to your spelling skills. Pull up your chairs everyone and place your bets on who takes a header first. I'm voting on Maria. She may be scrappy but Velvet is bigger! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

Emoticon lesson #1: Always place spaces before and after to make sure the thing actually shows up!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Wow, just the thought of Maria and I doing a happy dance must have shaken you up. Must be because you are still on the floor after your last Martini. Hmmm...the bar isn't that high and you do have a LOT of padding, so I don't see what you're worried about. Maria and I will be well protected from the floor after we fall off the bar and on you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

The :rolleyesthing was on purpose!!! so there.

[Maria]

1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4

SUZY, get you cane back where it belongs. Quit trying to trip us. Velvet and I are doing quit well, THANKYOUVERYMUCH

1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4
1 2 3 4

[suzy]

So sorry. Didn't mean to spill my salad with oil and vinegar dressing ALL over the dance floor. You okay? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh my! Salad dressing wrestling beats mud wrestling any day. You GO, MARIA!!!!!!

[Velvet]

suzy, how can you be cheering for Maria when she's beating you? Quit trying to make people believe it's me wrestling with Maria when she pulled you out of your chair after you slimed the floor in front of us during our dance.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

And what comes after 4? Here's a hint - it's another number. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Maria]

See what happens when you try to be nice and take the old and decrepit out on the town. She ends up embarrassing all of us.

Suzy, would you kindly adjust your Depends please?

That would be 5. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[suzy]

Winning was too pathetically easy. I was able to hold Maria down for the full count of 10 -- okay, so we're at 189 and still counting as Maria tries to figure out the answer to my question. There's just no challenge in this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Maria]

So sad.

I'll make an appointment for you next week to have your tri-focals adjusted. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Monica S]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I once green broke a Standardbred pacer who was a native trotter, but they had put pacing shackles on him because pacing is faster. Anyhow, the poor darling really didn't know WHAT to do with his gangly legs - took him a month to learn how to Trot again. Well, when we started trying to canter, he could just TTRRROOOOOTTTTT and then he would start a pseudoPace. So, with much encouragment using a tap of the whip on his hind end, I DID teach him to canter - but.... he would often slip back into trotting in back which did indeed create a 5 beat canter. He could go left-right-left in back in the time the front end went left-right-pause. As odd as it was to look at it was incredibly Smooth, but impossible to collect. I guarantee it was 5 beats, without any use of a 5th leg. It was just in the time it took to cycle a full stride in front, he would slip in a extra step behind.

(LOOK Louise - I got this Back into a discussion on horses! See, you can't dump this thread yet! Hahahaha!)

And SLC - you are talking about imaginary books - you need to get a hold of a book by Rumi with all his off color stuff - written back in 800 AD! Wonderful moral stories - like the one about the princess's hand maiden who had a 'cooperative' little Jack burro. She had arrainged some contraption with cocoanut shells to prevent too much *AHem* "DEEP". Well, the princess was jealous, and sent the hand maiden off on a fool's mission, just so she could have some personal time with old Jack. Of course she didn't know about the coconut shells, and well, we all know that Deep Work Can KILL you!!!! (I swear this is really the story, and it was originally written in Arabic, and it actually is a Sufi story!) So, who needs make believe when there are classic works like this floating around! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif m

Things Take Time

[Velvet]

I'll go and get suzy's walker and you, Maria, can get James from my car and have him pick suzy up off the floor. We'll also let him pour her into the car and give her a ride home.

See, I do have a heart. I can take pity on decrepit lushes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(Just a little something to help you through your day, suzy dahling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[Brookes]

Drinking and Dancing??? And I missed it????

I need to do less working and more lurking! What time are the Cha Cha lessons Velvet?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Kathy Johnson]

You have answered the question that has confounded the dressage community (ok, at least me and Monica) for ages with an answer that makes perfect sense and beats the tar out of railroad tracks.

Of course we are arguing semantics--it is my favorite pastime.

And here are a few thoughts brought to you by my 13 year old students:

Why is a vertical (jump) called a vertical when it goes straight across?

Have you ever noticed that a horse's front legs bend like a human's legs, and a horse's hind legs bend like a human's arms?

I missed the dance but it is available on video for Christmas.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[slc2]

i have a lot of books by rumi monica. he's my main man. he also had a lot to say about dressage.

kathy, why is a door called ajar?

the book that just came out called ''In One Arena'' is probably the best thing every published on dressage. has anyone read it.

monica i think you need to explain the footfall of the 5 beat boogie the standardbred did as i don't think it is a 5 beat canter or a canter at
all, but a broken pace with a hop. a videotape would be interesting, but i don't suppose most of us go out of our way to video tape such things.

[Velvet]

I prefer the Rumba, when doing a Latin dance. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You must come out here more frequently if you wish to join in the dance (no reference to the Garth Brooks song). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[suzy]

Oh Monica, I'm shocked!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Okay, I've recovered. What are some of the titles and where can I find them?

SLC, who wrote "In One Arena?"

[slc2]

author of in one arena is sharon biggs.

you may not like some of what you read - it's a bit of a dose of reality. the advice on buying a horse especially.

there is no such thing as a shoulder in on 4 tracks because of more angle. if there are four tracks on the ground because of more angle (unlike shoulder fore where there are 4 tracks on ground because of less angle), it is leg yielding.

as reiner says in one video, ''it is not shoulders in, it is lek yieldink already''.

so all you geniuses, how many tracks with haunches in. don't say 3.

[Liz Steacie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>so all you geniuses, how many tracks with haunches in. don't say 3.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TWO

YMMV
L

Liz Steacie
Porcupine Hill Dressage
Maitland, Ontario

http://www.porcupinehill.com

[slc2]

actually it's 4. the hind end can't be deflected that much or there is no bend and it is lek yieldink already or if you prefer shoulder out or some other fabricated name - maybe the old head to the wall is the best thing to call it.

[lisalou]

Yeah, my copy just came on Sunday, and I'm loving it! Sent for a second copy to give my trainer.

[lisalou]

Hey slc,
I think you're confusing Reiner Klimke with Natasha of Rocky and Bullwinkle fame.

[slc2]

to be killink moose and squirrel!

[slc2]

did you see fearless leader pretending to be al pacino in ''taxi driver''? oh that was so good.

[Kathy Johnson]

because haunches in is a two track movement, semantically.

Hubert Rohrer asked the same question about haunches in, and what was the optimium angle, at a clinic before he died. No one there knew the answer either, and I believe his non-answer was that it was most important that the angle stayed the same.

More fuel for the fire:

Anky (http://www.dressageextensions.com/images/115.jpg)

PS Which ODG had the leading role in Shrek?

[DocHF]

Its not really classical is it? I mean , classically speaking, the horse should be bowing when he's that deep at the halt?

And how many tracks is Suzy and her walker?

[lisalou]

Is Ankly von Gruesome teaching her horses to bow, or is the horse just so accustomed to traveling like this he can no longer go in any other position. And why, oh why did Dressage Extensions choose this extremely strange photograph for their cover?

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Maybe it was just a crowd-pleaser /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"It is amazing that horses, or any animal for that matter, choose to love us, for we will never deserve it"

[Kathy Johnson]

I really wanted to be #500 on this thread. But, now like Suzy's going to get it. Wah.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Maria]

Well Kathy you can always shoot for 600. So get typing.

Poor Louise.

[slc2]

as i observe horses free in the pasture, i often see them assuming the same position as the horse in the above photo naturally, with no compulsion from a rider, at approximately the moment when an insect lands on the chest and bites them.

i often wonder if perhaps, just PERHAPS, we may make too much of the photos we see.

froth on the chin, a bug or just anticipating the free walk on a long rein after the salute will make a horse do this.

unfortunately for our anticipated stellar career at the grand prix, my horse has a violent aversion to having spittle dribble down his chin, and he does far more than the photo depicts, in fact he slams to a halt, catapulting me onto his neck, and spends about 30 minutes rubbing his chin vigorously on his knee any time a stray fleck of spittle dares to get out of his mouth. he also spends a great deal of time before that swallowing and grunting with annoyance if any spit actually comes out of his mouth, and the sense one gets is that FINALLY WHEN HE CAN'T BEAR IT ANY LONGER, he slams on the brakes and takes care of the matter.

i shall spend most of the winter stuffing his mouth with sugar and see if i can get him over this. God would be generous and bless me if we can get through to the final salute before he does this.

i tried the sugar this summer, but it resulted in us having a tiny cloud of flies buzzing constantly around his chin, and that drove him even more nuts than the spittle. he eyed the bugs with horror, chin tucked in to his chest, and would occasionally try to dodge them and ''lose'' them through evasive maneouvers. unfortunately, the old man doesn't move fast enough, even at a hand gallop, to confound his own private little swarm.

there was nothing in the book ''In One Arena'' to address this show-stopper issue.

[suzy]

I do not ride Tennessee Walkers!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[rileyt]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[egontoast]

where am I?

[suzy]

It's about time you showed up, Eggy. That threadicidal maniac, rileyt, is on the loose trying to kill this thread. Nev-ah!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[monstrpony]

Excuse me, all, for having the poor form to interrupt this (of all) threads with an idea, but--have you tried slobbering his chin with something like baby oil before you begin riding? Maybe the spittle won't feel as irritating over a greasy base. Or--or you could hire one of those helpful, neophyte first-time dressage show helpers who carefully wipes all the slobber off your horse's face just before you go into the arena, so that he looks "neat & clean".

sorry, sorry, I can't help myself....

back to pseudo thread killing and Anky bashing.

[Kathy Johnson]

SLC,

I have a mare in training, the oh so gentile Rambling Skye, who can not stand a drop of spittle on her either. Fortunately or unfortunately, she has taken matters into her own capable hooves.

Skye knows it is wrong to stop and wipe her muzzle. She knows what we would do. So, she has learned to take her front feet in some sort of semblance of Spanish Stomp, and wipe her muzzle with her feet.

It is amazing, extraordinary to see her wipe her nose with her front feet at the canter. You can't even pull her head up, because her head doesn't go down--her feet come up.

She is completely ambi-nostrous. I am going out right now to invest in a case of Vaseline.

Eggy, I envy you being the 500th.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)