Article in HorsePeople on Barney and McClain Ward entitled "We've Been Wronged"

[TBLover]

Has anyone else on this BB read the article in the April 2000 issue of Horse People about Barney and McLain Ward entitled "We've Been Wronged?" by Jeff Shields. It is billed as the first time Barney and McClain "tell their side of the story and how it affected their lives".

I'd be interested in hearing about the reaction of others who have read it. I thought about posting some of the statements by the Wards here, but have decided not to because I don't want to inflame the board by quoting the outrageous parts without people actually reading the entire article.

Unfortunately, I think Horse People is primarily available only in the NY/NJ/CT area and to my knowledge, doesn't have a web site, so I can't offer any guidance to those who might want to read the article but don't get the magazine. Perhaps others on this Board can, though.

[TBLover]

Has anyone else on this BB read the article in the April 2000 issue of Horse People about Barney and McLain Ward entitled "We've Been Wronged?" by Jeff Shields. It is billed as the first time Barney and McClain "tell their side of the story and how it affected their lives".

I'd be interested in hearing about the reaction of others who have read it. I thought about posting some of the statements by the Wards here, but have decided not to because I don't want to inflame the board by quoting the outrageous parts without people actually reading the entire article.

Unfortunately, I think Horse People is primarily available only in the NY/NJ/CT area and to my knowledge, doesn't have a web site, so I can't offer any guidance to those who might want to read the article but don't get the magazine. Perhaps others on this Board can, though.

[brilyntrip]

you know I saw That magazine in the tack shoplast week and my comment was...........OH PULLLEEEEZZZZEEEE!!!
I couldnt believe they woould print that,needless to say i didnt buy the magazine

[JRG]

I read the article. I found that it squashed alot of misconseptions that I had. Now I only moderately dislike Ward SR. for his part in the "act".
As for Ward JR. I am still waiting to hear all the facts.
I do believe that it is entirely possible to have things happen that is beyond your control. I had a friend get back from Florida, and there was a minor incedent of a couple of horses getting loose and grazing about the ground in the middle of the night, Very well known horses. Some person just opened the doors and let them out. So it is possible for people to have access to an animal that should not, security is not iron clad.
I also know that when people are winning, and alot that someone may be jealous or stupid enough to do something dumb. My example is the Tanya Harding and Nancy Karrigan incident.
That is why I am still waiting for all the facts.

[Regalmeans]

I read it - in fact I got a copy at the last show I went (at this show my horse pulled up lame so I ended up huddled in the trailer to keep warm - and thats when I read it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

I was abit annoyed at BArney Ward - I am sorry but I think he deserves everything the AHSA/legal system inflicted upon him. I don't care if he 'reformed' - he still has to serve his punishment. We don't let a murder out of a life prison term if he reforms, do we? For once I agree with the AHSA here!

As for McClain I can't judge until I have all the facts - but I can say I don't especially like either of their attitudes and alot of what Barney Ward said had me rolling my eyes.....

It was a very interesting article though

Sarah

[Snowbird]

I just received my copy of "Horse People". I must say that I was convinced by the article that Barney has no remorse or regret except for the way it affected him. As to the big sympathy bid, many people have come up from hard and poor backgrounds without adopting any short cuts for success.

Most of us would find it difficult to raise $300,000 to purchase a horse regardless of it's potential. So I guess things are not that bad at Castle Hill.

I think that if as Barney Ward said,
"And, he doesn't accept judgment from others on the horse show circuit, he said, knew as much as he did about what Tommy Burns was doing at the time."

Well then an honorable man would have realized his guilt and turned in all these other people who are now looking at him so unkindly. Why because yes, if this is true they are as guilty as he, and that doesn't make him innocent.

"He will never moralize over the death of a horse like others in the AHSA, he says. He grew up around stables and farms where horses that were beyond use were put down".

Here the applicable phrase is "beyond use". By whose determination is this done? That is what makes the difference. If a horse has lost his use at 4'0" but could make a wonderful companion at 3'0", is that beyond use? If it were not insured would the same decision be made? That is the issue.

"He built himself a code of ethics based on loyalty more than morality, and if he knew his friends were killing horses for money, that was their business."

In that we have the reason for the problems which Barney Ward has created for himself.

As to McLain,
"He says there was no sign of any harm done to Beneton, and he argues that the miniscule amount of cocaine found in Oliver would not even ground a commercial airline pilot."

Whether or not the was a sign or evidence of harm, is to me irrelevent. What is relevant is the intention of those chips. And, I certainly hope that the airline pilot when I fly has not handled any dollar bills. McLain is not the one to determine how much cocaine is acceptable. It is the drugs and medication committee with the veterinary committee that make those decisions. I trust these decisions are made based on what is in the best interest of the horses and not McLain Ward.

"Now, I want to go for myself, for the people who have supported me," he said,"not for my country, which hasn't done much for me through my troubles".

That does not sound like the Olympic Champion and role model we want for all those young people who might aspire to one day be on the team. Nor, those of us who are expected to donate money to pay for the attendance of the team.

I hardly can visualize that the Wards have not gained from every aspect of the American Dream. And, I think for all the blessings he has had McLain should respect this country.

Mr.Barney Ward says that he rose from poverty to Castle Hill where his son built him an elaborate private gym, there is a lap pool on the deck. Sounds like the very best of the American Dream to me.

"What separates Barney Ward from his acusers is that Barney is a businessman and a farmer."

He is therefore still a busy and successful person with lots of opportunity.

"And he cannot bow down to the AHSA and others in the horse world whom he considers morally inferior to him."

If that is so then we are all doomed, and so are the horses.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 03-30-2000).]

[TBLover]

I guess the thing I found most pathetic about the article were the statements that because Barney cannot watch McClain ride in person, and because he can no longer compete himself, Barney has a hard time finding a reason to get up in the morning. Carol Molony, a friend of Barney's, is quoted in the article as saying "What does he have left? Horses are his life. He's got a son who's very talented, and he can't watch him. What does he have left?" Seems to me he has quite a bit left.

[Black Market Radio]

And maybe he should have thought about those things before he took part in what he did. I can't feel sorry for someone like that. That is like feeling sorry for the unibomber!

[marianne]

M. Scott Peck once wrote in one of his books, a sequel to "A Road Less Travelled" that there were truly evil and amoral people in this world. I do believe we all have found at least one, probably two.

[Jessica Kuhn]

How come the topic about tom trout not only got deleted but even the topic that talked about it getting deleted got closed, but anything on the Ward's just goes on and on and even george morris himself has to accept being a target of this talking? I don't know Tom Trout, but I guess he has better lawyers than the Wards or Morris. Or does he just have a lot more going on with the magazine? I think it is unfair to subject some people to what is talked about here but not others. It is even more upsetting when no one here defended Trout at all, unlike all the other discussions that have criticized real people, and yet he got protected by the magazine?

[ponyjmper13]

Well, I didn't read the article in horse people--but my boyfriend did. While his answer was PPUUHHLLEEEEAASSSSE!!!!, i didn't read it so i can't say that.

But one thing (maybe 2 or three really /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) i will say is:
I think barney ward got everything he deserved, he should've had more!!! What he did was entirely inexcusable, and i agree that he shouldn't be able to watch his son ride! If he's SO hooked up on watching his son ride , well, he should of thought about that before he did ...well, we know what he did(i can't even say it, i find it so cruel, & disgusting!!!) and if horses ARE his life, then why did he kill some??

As for Ward jr. I'm not sure how many facts i've heard that are actually correct, but i believe(right now at least) that he's innocent... but you never can tell....

[shiloh]

I have zero respect for these men. All I can say, Well, boo-hoo, wah wah wah. Quit sniveling - you made your choices, now live with them.

My big question/point is this: Why should there have been ANY cocaine in the horse's system? And if you are putting coke up your horses' noses, whose other noses is it going into?

As far as Benetton goes, what kind of defense is "Well, he didn't get hurt." What kind of lame-o statement is that?

Keep talking, Barney and McClain - you opened your mouths and proved you are fools, now let's make it really definite.

Jessica:

May I point out that the Wards apparently
voluntarily submitted to the interview that lead to this article, that they apparently wanted it published, and that therefore I feel justified in discussing it. I agree with everything that Snowbird said in her analysis, except to add that I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, for Barney Ward to FIND many, if any people, who are "morally inferior to him." The arrogance that I read into the comments attributed to him is astounding and I believe he got the minimum that he deserved.
What confounds me is that in a forum in which he participated, this article, as in his letter of defense to the Chronicle earlier, he STILL cannot hide that arrogance and even appear to be contrite.

[pwynnnorman]

I don't see the distinction in the online treatment of the threads either, but, oh well.

Maybe I'm too soft hearted, but I just have a hard time getting too worked up over someone like Barney Ward just because at some point in his life he considered horses to be mere commodities, rather than living, breathing creatures. He's hardly alone in that mindset.

In fact, don't human beings think that way all the time, like everytime most of us sit down to dinner? What makes a horse any more deserving of our consideration than a cow? What makes Ward any more a monster than your average farmer?

Ah, but he broke a rule and he won't shut up, either. Geezum, folks, murderers are treated better than BW! Can't anyone see how inconsistent that is of us?

I haven't read the article yet, but I think I would have to weigh in on the side of the Ward's regardless. The only reason, it seems to me, that they are getting so much bashing is because they, more or less, got caught--and maybe because, for some reason (like just maybe because they didn't come from a line of silver-spoons-in-mouths?) no one will forgive them, unlike, it seems, those many who have forgiven Valliere (to the point of thanking him in an ad in The Chronicle--no one got upset about that, did they?)

I guess I even have to admire the Ward's courage, in a way. They DO keep trying, in spite of the fact that the whole industry, it seems, just wants them to go away. It's a bit bizarre to me, really. Why are we so hard on them, but not others? Could it be because of what they remind us of? Something we'd rather not have to acknowledge about certain aspects of our sport?

BTW, has there been any research on giving horses cocaine something like a week or so BEFORE testing them--to see how much residue would be left in their system? Didn't someone at some point say that maybe people get horses "high" so they can come down and are "low" by the time they show? Wouldn't that be something that a vet school or some other entity could actually do an experiment on?

And what would the dose be? Wouldn't it get pretty expensive? And dangerous?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but P. Valliere NEVER pled guilty to killing horses.

[Bethe Mounce]

Eventually this article will make its way to the internet I would think. I feel I could not make a valid comment until I read it....except for the following........I do believe Barney Ward will cry "foul" until his dying day. And, if the comment about McLain saying he wants to ride for himself and not his country is true, I do hope the USET gets wind of that. That type of demeanor surely would not bode well for team unity/comraderie........

[LucianCephus]

EXCUSE ME?????

"haven't read the article yet, but I think I would have to weigh in on the side of the Ward's regardless. The only reason, it seems to me, that they are getting so much bashing is because they, more or less, got caught--and maybe because, for some reason (like just maybe because they didn't come from a line of silver-spoons-in-mouths?)"

Yeah, Barney got caught---arranging for the execution of multiple horses. And he deserves more bashing than this board can ever deliver. I'm not a silver spooner, but I've never killed an animal as an indulgence for a client either. Come on, this is ludicrous. How can you feel any level of empathy for this creature?

And while I'm not a proponent of the canonization of Valliere, at least he's accepted his punishment and gone on with his life. True, he continues to make a (very)good living on the fringes, but he has never, to the best of my knowledge, attempted to defy the conditions of the plea bargain he struck. And, God help us, he is not a whiner.

P. Wynn, gotta say it--cannot believe you would stand up for this skank.

[MBS]

Goodmudder. P Valliere admitted to his part in this scandal. I don't recall if he plea bargined or what to get less of a sentence than Barney but he did Exactly what Barney and many others did. He just took a different approach to the situation in his letter to the chronicle and "apologized". And in the eyes of "some" that makes him a better person.

[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 04-01-2000).]

MB Stark, I will check the facts tomorrow, but I guarantee he did NOT do "exactly what Barney" did. I believe he pled to wire fraud, but NOT to killing horses!

[LucianCephus]

If memory serves, P.V. passed the name of the horse killer to a client, who then contracted with T. Burns to have his horse murdered. Ward, on the other hand, arranged directly for the slaughter of at least 3 horses. Both accepted plea bargains...Ward's more severe punishment (i.e., imprisonment) was due to the "hands on" nature of his involvement in multiple killings.

[This message has been edited by LucianCephus (edited 04-01-2000).]

[Bertie]

Back to Pwynn's post...What was the thank-you to Valliere for? Was it for doing something decent, or going out of his way to help someone or some group? Thanking someone for help seems a creditable thing to do. No matter what a person has done, if they help someone, a thank you is not out of order.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-01-2000).]

[LucianCephus]

Several people who continue to ride with Paul have thanked him for his assistance in the year-end vanity ads run in the COH. Despite my earlier comments (that may have appeared to defend Valliere), I personally find these endorsements tasteless to say the least.

[Duffy]

I agree totally with Bethe. I continue to be amazed by Mr. Ward's attitude towards his crimes and his whining about his "punishment". I could think of a lot more appropriate punishment than they all got. . .Too bad it wouldn't be legal. And if that quote of McLain's is accurate, how can the Olympic selection committee even consider him? It certainly doesn't appear that he's interested in representing this country and isn't that the point of participating in the Olympics???

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jessica Kuhn:
How come the topic about tom trout not only got deleted but even the topic that talked about it getting deleted got closed, but anything on the Ward's just goes on and on and even george morris himself has to accept being a target of this talking? I don't know Tom Trout, but I guess he has better lawyers than the Wards or Morris. Or does he just have a lot more going on with the magazine? I think it is unfair to subject some people to what is talked about here but not others. It is even more upsetting when no one here defended Trout at all, unlike all the other discussions that have criticized real people, and yet he got protected by the magazine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply put, the Chronicle is trying to avoid a lawsuit. So until I know for sure what's going on, that subject is off-limits. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that I try very hard to be fair and stay out of things, but in this case it's just not possible.

I will explain more when I can.

[Weatherford]

Thank you, Erin. I would also like to point out that the primary difference in the threads is that one person is a convicted (that is guilty) felon. The other was not involved (contrary to the previous thread's comments.)

By the way, for those of you who are newcomers to the boards, this subject was discussed quite fully in several other threads - Oct or Nov through Jan/Feb. I hate to repeat myself, but Paul Valiere not only cooperated with the FBI, but he wore a wire for them for a year, which in those circles, was taking his life in his own hands. That wire allowed the FBI to solidify it various cases.

I remind you, too, of the definition of "sociopath" that I posted once before, as sent to me by a (non-horsey) psychologist upon reviewing statements by BW.

I, personally, find BW frightening. Even when he is being "nice". The article - which I will admit, I have not got the stomach to finish, made me very, very angry.

[Louise]

I agree with Weatherford in that the Wards truly frighten me. Everything else has been said, so I am not going to repeat anything here.

I also thank Erin for giving us a further explaination on why that particular thread on the lost horse had been pulled. I can certainly see where the Chronicle might be concerned. However, as it happened, there was an interesting article in our local paper yesterday. The article was entitled "British firm to pay in Internet libel case", and went on to describe a rather large settlement that a provider of an electronic bulletin board had to pay to a certain individual who had alleged libel. As I was reading, I was wondering what effect this would have on our forum. The truly interesting statement, though, was the last sentence in the article. "It is unclear what implications the settlement will have for companies based in the United States, where Internet service providers are no more liable for messages than the Postal Service is for the contents of mailed letters." Erin, I thought that this might ease your mind, and the minds of others with the Chronicle. Looks to me like you might not have as much to fear as you thought. I think though, that it is something that you need to research for yourselves.

[Twister]

One thing I remember about a letter Barney wrote to the Chronicle was that he never injured horses who were directly in his care. I remember thinking that would be similar to a murderer saying he only killed strangers, or a robber only burgling businesses not owned by his family.
On the 'what does he have to live for' statement... I would be a very unhappy person without horses in my life...Wait, Barney still has horses in his life...sctratch that. If my happiness depended on attending, in person, every athletic event of my child, I would have no life indeed!
On another note, the very killing of these horses for the insurance money is indicative of massive ego overload on the part of George Lindemann, Paul Valliere and Barney Ward. The saddest part of Charisma's case was that the Wheelers offered to buy him back since he wasn't working out. The way I understood the horse in Paul's case was that he sold the horse as an investment to his brother and it was not working out and he wanted to get his brother out of it. George had the horse killed because he couldn't ride it, but he wasn't about to let it be successful again after he had failed with it. Not only that, he wanted US to pay for his inability. WHY did he have to get the insurance money?? Was Paul such a poor horseman that he didn't know not every prospect works out??? I don't think so, he just couldn't admit failure, so WE paid for that horse. Wealthy people took OUR money rather than bite the bullet and admit the horse just wasn't working out...

[This message has been edited by Twister (edited 04-02-2000).]

[Twister]

We can discuss Barney, McLain and George because we are discussing documented events. We cannot discuss Thom because no one knows for sure his part in the disappearing horse situation.

[pwynnnorman]

But LC, I just don't get it! Valliere "condoned" the killing, didn't he? And Ward didn't actually pick up the metal rod and hit that horse in the leg, did he?

If anything, Ward may suffer from a certain mindset that makes him think that he can fight his way out of a situation, when Valliere just accepted it, but so what? What's the ultimate different in the cases?

If you get so upset about horses being killed, and hate anyone who would do so, then there's an awful lot of people out there you must really despise. And, I repeat, do you despise the hog and chicken farmers, too?

Why should Ward be more villified (sp?) for refusing to shut up? Villify him if you want to, but we live in a free country where even a convicted felony has a right to free speech. I still feel that people are as mad at him for exercising his rights as they are for what he did in the first place.

And that's what I don't understand.

[Portia]

Hi Gang. I just want to put in a plea for understanding for Erin and the Chronicle. None of us like what we perceive to be censorship, and I doubt very much that Erin or the Chronicle do either. The Chronicle was threatened with a lawsuit, and while I personally don't believe there is any basis whatsoever for liability in this instance, or in anything else I've seen here, a business has to be conservative and act prudently, which is what the Chronicle did in this case. Even if you are in the right, you can still get sued, and it can take a great deal of money, effort, and time to prove you were right all along. And in this country, unlike England, defendants who win still cannot recover their attorney's fees and costs. While it has a long history and great tradition in reporting American horse sports, my perception is that the Chronicle is not some deep-pocket who can afford to litigate unnecessarily. Sometimes it's just better to be safe than sorry and choose your battles wisely, even if it means doing something you would rather not do.

The fact is, the law in the area of defamation and internet bulletin boards and chat rooms is in its infancy, and we will not know for several years exactly what may or may not get a host in trouble. In my personal opinion, I think it will ultimately shake out in favor of the BB hosts -- although I suspect plaintiffs will be able to go after the people who knowingly post defamatory content. But until the law is settled, a BB host must be concerned about potential liability, however small that risk may ultimately prove to be. I have no personal knowledge of this, but I'm quite sure the Chronicle is being advised by competent lawyers, and that they are following the advice of their counsel.

So, please, try to give Erin and the Chronicle a break in this and similar situations. The alternative to having a minimal degree of "censorship" is for them to eliminate the risk of liability by doing away with the boards entirely. And none of us want that, do we?

Pwynn, Sure, the Wards have a right to say whatever they want to. And WE have a right to react to WHAT they say. But I would respectfully suggest that those of you defending the Wards READ the article we are talking about, Seems to me that what they said "says it all." - Barney is morally superior to lots of people, everyone has it in for him, a little bit of cocaine isn't so bad, and the rules shouldn't apply to Barney, he should have the right to defy the AHSA. Excuse me? The best thing they could do for themselves, I think, is to shut up. At least others, having admitted being wrong, are taking their punishments. I'm sure Paul V. would also like to be on the show grounds, to see his students, to see his wife. I'm sure other suspended people would like similar privileges. But, again, the arrogance that I read into this article is gross.
While this may be a bit off the track - I find it curious that on a bb that, in many cases, is screaming at the AHSA for MORE enforcement of the rules, there is so much sympathy for one who got the discipline that many felt was deserved. I am certainly only an interested bystander, but know that this case was investigated as much or more than any other "horse" case I can think of. What more evidence do we want?

[pwynnnorman]

I'd like to read it. And, goodmudder, we can at least agree that his right to free speech has a healthy effect on the liveliness of our discussions!

But what about this possibility: what if the Ward's are simply brave (or foolish) enough to state publicly what other trainers and riders think privately?

That's why I'm reluctant to villify him to the extent that others do. Again, I haven't read the article, but if, as you say, he implies that a little cocaine isn't so bad, that seems to indicate that "a little cocaine" is indeed being used.

Next question:...being used only by the Wards? I doubt it.

And the same applies to all those other ugly things they've been accused and/or convicted of doing. They aren't alone, not even in killing horses: again, he got caught, sure, but don't you think there are those who haven't? Who do you think they are?

And the same applies to cocaine use, putting stuff in boots, and whatever else the public's constant scrunity and criticism has unearthed about the Wards. How many guys in Barney Ward's generation of horseman would stand up to the same scrutiny, I wonder?

(I haven't a clue as to how many in the generations between Ward and his son, but I think there would be at least SOME, unknown but out there, who wouldn't hold up so well either.)

I mention BW's generation in particular, though, because I do sense, in a second-hand way, a certain cold brutality in his actions, a brutality I've met in other men of that generation.

For example, I once tried a rider of that age who took some kind of perverse pride in "hooking" a young horse to get it to jump more cleanly (spurring it sharply and suddenly, just as it took off to jump). It's not what he did, which I certainly don't find complimentary of his techniques, it's the way he said it: it was like because the horse didn't make enough of an effort, he could punish it, yeah! He seemed to take pleasure in having a reason to punish the horse.

We've mentioned ego-involvement before. Acts of cold, cruel brutality and high levels of ego, especially in a certain generation of males, seem to go hand in hand, IMO.

Which gets me back to where I began: I cannot believe that Ward is alone in his outlook--it may be part of his generation's mindset (no, not everyone in his generation, but also not a few either). Ward is just arrogant and/or brave and/or foolish enough to admit it instead of hide it.

So which do you prefer: the devil you know or the devil you don't know? At the very least, maybe Ward's statements will open people's eyes, enabling them to see some the other devils out there.

Me, on the one hand, I see devils everywhere. On the other hand, I keep forgiving them. I don't know why.

[LucianCephus]

P. Wynn,

Not to belabor this, but....

I don't "hate" Ward; as you indicate, there are many trainers who've done as bad and worse. I also, tho, feel NO pity for him, and fervently hope the AHSA sticks to its guns vis-a-vis his banishment. My point with regard to Valiere was not that he should be forgiven--this sort of charity is just not part of my makeup--but that rather he has seemingly accepted the consequences of his actions. That doesn't make him a good man, but it does make him something less of a sociopath, I think. As you note, the Wards are being punished because they got caught--isn't this at least marginally better than not punishing anyone??

I'm really not a zealot and would certainly not seek to make an "example" of the Wards...it just makes me (somewhat) postal when people defend actions involving the gratuitous brutalizing of animals. Ward did the crime and, therefore, IMHO, he should do the time.

[JerzeyPrincess]

Hehe doesnt have anything to do with this topic, but my barn is on Page 7 of that issue /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[woodbern]

The Ward "mindset", huh? Uh, hmmm ... right.

Their most recent common collective mindset seems to be "duh .... we been done wrong..."
http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

You know, just like the mindset of most of America today!

I can't figure out how to get this article on the net, but, if you want to get it, call:

Trader Publications/ Horse People
(914) 696-8262

One Gannett Drive
White Plains, NY 10604

[Lily]

Is Horse People still published by Barbara Messina from Long Island?

I don't believe so, but am not sure. She is listed as "founding editor," but I believe the magazine was recently sold. Trader Publications is a division of Gannett Custom Publishing. Editor is Arlene Newman. Nancy Jaffer is a contributor. The article we're discussing was written by Jeff Shields.


Comments on the article? Email to the editor is: anewman@westche2.gannett.com

[Lily]

Thanks goodmudder! I haven't seen the magazine in a few years so I wasn't sure.

[wtywmn4]

Woodbern, I think you have it! It's the cliche of the century right now.....Someone else did it, I'm innocent. The world would come apart if anyone took responsibility for their actions.. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

Right on! Everyone is as guilty as me so why am I the guilty one? At least I'm honest about it!

A classic example for a psychology class of a sociopath rationalizing "the devil made me do it". It's not my fault goes with the "dollar bill" theory and the twinkie defense.

The quotes I listed are accurately from the article. I hope that the USET will consider the McLain quote when they establish the qualifying criteria for "OUR" Olympic Team.

I noted in an article by Nancy Jaffer today, that McLain feels he has learned a great deal, he is more competitive and his horses benefited from the rest!

[Twister]

Pwynn, comparing the Wards to chicken farmers is apples and oranges. Were these horses raised for slaughter? No. Were they killed so the owners could collect money from us?? YES!! If any of these people had called their vet and said, 'I have a horse that is lame, crazy, worthless, eating me out of house and home and I can't even give it away so I want you to come and put it down.' I could have sympathized. But, not only did they killed these horses in a decidedly inhumane way, they robbed US in doing so!!

[AHC]

I read the article this weekend at the barn, and I must agree with those who put Barney Ward in the category of sociopath. As far as the "moral inferiority" of other horse people," maybe not everyone was caught, but that doesn't change BW's responsibility for his illegal actions.

One of the quotes I found most interesting was the one where BW talked about being in solitary confinement for 15 days after a fight. Guess he wanted to let everyone know how strong and tough he is. To me it sounded like he was a little too pleased with his bad behavior in jail.

[Ash]

Can someone post this article? I would like to read it. (Don't worry, I will make sure I do so on an empty stomach).

I find McClain's comments about not wanting to compete for his country because they haven't supported him, a joke....no, make that disgusting! I really hope the USET has something to say about this.

Rather then work myself into a frenzy this dreary Monday morning I think I will just agree with everyone else and say PA- THE- TIC!

[Jumphigh83]

If you lie long enough and loud enough not only do you start believing your lie but other people start believing the lie too. You start to doubt your own sense of right and wrong when someone is so passionate and persistant about glossing over the truth. That's how tele evangelists part ALOT of people from their money..I think Tammy Faye Baker is available if BW needs some company!

[Jumphigh83]

PS That spoiled little deviant MW can stick his olympic dream where the sun doesn't shine. His arrogance is exceeded only by his ignorance. Way to go MW...How to win friends and influence people!

[DOME]

CAN SOMEBODY TRY TO SCAN AND POST THE ARTICLE PLEASE? Thanks so much, I really would love to read it just in case I can't drive up to the tack shop and pick one up.

[pwynnnorman]

Someone said: The Ward "mindset", huh? Uh, hmmm ... right. Their most recent common collective mindset seems to be "duh .... we been done wrong..."

ROTFL!!!!

Yeah, someone please scan it in or something. This I gotta see.

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've dealt with the lower end of the intelligence scale a lot?

[AHC]

For some of us who read the article it appeared that the people about whom it was written are the low end of the intelligence scale and don't even register on the morality scale.

[Snowbird]

Horse People published the article in their issue April 2000.

They can be reached by phone: 800-689-5933
you can email your request for the article to:
horsepeople@mindspring.com

[TBLover]

Here's a question I haven't seen addressed (or if it has been, I've missed it): If McClain makes the Olympic Team, will Barney be allowed to attend the equestrian events in Sydney? And how about other events outside the US -- like Spruce Meadows, Monterrey and Europe? Can he go to those? Does anyone know the answer to this question?

[AHC]

Great question, TB Lover. Barney's ban is AHSA, the Olympics fall under the USET/FEI and they're outside of the country as are Monterrey and Spruce Meadows. I hope someone out there knows whether there are any reciprocal agreements among AHSA, USET and FEI about banned members. If there aren't, it would seem to me that BW would be free to attend.

[fairplay]

fair play

[wtywmn4]

Thought that was spoken about on a previous thread. The reciprocity rule of the AHSA was what MW had to deal with. This concurred with the FEI findings and suspension. One would think that would also hold true for BW.

[fairplay]

What is fair is Fair -
How is it that Maclain Ward gets accused of using chips in his boots - is set down almoist immediately - misses Florda 2000, The American Invitational,The World Cup Finals ........... But at least 3 Riders/trainers got caught by the AHSA drugging their horses over a year ago and they are still showing and competing for world cup and olympic positions ???? How come there is no discussion on that subject ?? Do we want these cheaters on our Olympic Team ???

[poltroon]

I believe it's due to a combination of the FEI justice system working more quickly, and some negotiating on McLain's part to stipulate to the suspension in exchange for it not being during the Olympic trials.

[woodbern]

So, fairplay, name the cheaters.

[arlenejn]

If anyone is interested in reading the Ward article in Horse People, I will mail the magazine to you. You can e-mail me at anewman@westche2.gannett.com or arlenejn@earthlink.net with your address. Arlene Newman, editor of Horse People

[Erin]

Unless the people you're referring to have actually been reprimanded by the AHSA (i.e. with a printed notice in Horse Show), do not name them.

[Snowbird]

Arlenejn,
Good , I only had one copy and someone stole mine at the horse show. Could you please check and find out if my usual bundle is coming?

I know it's a very hot issue.

[horsluvr]

I felt like I should call a transplant team since their hearts were in such danger of falling out of their chests. PLEASE! Surely they jest??

[arlenejn]

I am in Tampa now but will check with our distribution department in the a.m. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Arlenejn,
Good , I only had one copy and someone stole mine at the horse show. Could you please check and find out if my usual bundle is coming?

I know it's a very hot issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Clarke County]

Reading all the posts on this topic, I must say I thought people were probably exagerating - I just got my issue of Horse People today, however, and I was astounded by some of the quotes. I would also like to commend the new editor of that magazine for publishing what was sure to be an unpopular piece. I am not sure whether the intent was to glorify them by putting them on the cover, but given some of the quotes in the article and the comments on this board, the result was surely the opposite.

[Timex6979]

you know, growing up, barney was my idol pathetic, isn't it? LOL he lives about 20 minutes for me, so i used to see him a lot... but know that i've gotten to see how he does business, and i don't mean just the whole charisma thing, i really don't care for him. and now for him to say that people are out to get him, yeah, right. how about taking some responsibility for your actions? same goes for mclain, whether he did it or not, he has to accept the punishment. so let's be adults and deal with it, ok? oh, wait, i forgot, that's too difficult, it's easier to just blame someone else

[DOME]

AS far as I know, Mclain IS accepting his punishment...

[slc2]

well, with these cases, we never will know the truth of any of them. the only thing we do know for sure is these fellows seem to get in an awful lot of trouble, more than other people do.

people who get in trouble for doing things almost always say ''we was wronged''. that is because when you get in trouble for doing something, you get punished, and punishments are unpleasant.

i was in traffic court for expired plates and the guy sitting next to me had an incredibly sad and moving story about why he did not return a rental car to the detroit airport.

and why it wound up in phoenix, arizona.

when i came up, the judge asked me why i was driving with expired plates. i said, i knew they were expired, and i was worried about it, but i just didn't get the plates.

he let me off with a reduced fine. he said, ''that's the first honest comment i've heard all day''. people don't generally tell the truth when they get in trouble. they tell something else. so i would not comment one way or the other on the wards. all we really know is that someone reviewed their cases and saw fit to punish them. and they don't like it.

[Weatherford]

What irritates me most, and I have posted this before, is the fact that the AHSA has ALWAYS made a sentence occur over the date(s) in the year following the dirty deed. Thus, if you are caught for drugging your horse at Devon, your sentence will be scheduled to PREVENT you from showing at DEVON the following year. With one exception, and that is McLain on his AHSA cocaine charge - his sentence was tacked on to the end of his FEI sentence. Why? because, if it had been done in the usual manner, he would not be able to go to the Olympic Games. (He was caught at the GOld CUp in September; the Olympics are in September.) This is clearly unfair and discriminatory.

[Ash]

Why do we even want somebody representing this country who has stated he is not doing it for the United States but for himself??

What a jerk! If you are doing it for yourself McClain then don't use any of the USET's $$$-I know I don't want any of my donations going to support you!

[Snowbird]

A agree that "anyone" who has publicly stated that he has no respect for this country (in spite of the obvious benefits he has derived from this country) is not a proper role model and does not meet the standards set by the Olympics even if he has the best horse and is the best rider. I pray, that our Olympic Team will find a way to save us from a "Tonya Harding" type scandal.

[Jumphigh83]

Those two (MW, BW) make Tonya Harding look like a girl scout.

[woodbern]

I am with you, Ash..... but if you don't want any of your money helping support MW (if he makes the team), you'd better not send them any!

They will do what they d**n well please with it.

[ccoronios]

This is too disgusting. And it makes me very ashamed of myself. I have seen colleagues "hang" pleasure horses so they'll go quietly and with their heads down; I've heard colleagues give instructions not to water a horse so it'll be quiet and go "dead"; and I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. When good people don't do what we know we should do, BAD people WIN - and WE HELP THEM DO IT.
The fact that the Wards, et al., got caught and are being/have been punished DOESN'T give us the right to say "whew - the bad guys have been caught, all's right with the world (sport?) again".
We're all caught in a vise - if we're competitors, we need to live with our colleagues - sometimes, we see more of them than our families! If we're vendors, we depend on competitors as customers. Show management depends on competitors for the continuance of their show. I'm now a videographer; I could get a lot of "good" footage under the guise of "atmosphere shots" - but if I turn them, who will purchase tapes from me? What management will contract for my services, knowing that some of their top entries would be loathe to attend, fearing exposure? And who would protect my equipment - or me - or my assistants from acts of retaliation?
I don't know what the answer is - but I do know that if we aren't willing to ACT, then we have no right to COMPLAIN! (or feel that we're any different, for that matter)
Any ideas? Seriously - people who know me know I have no problem speaking up - I'm the one who refused to accept a check in an eq class at an multi-breed show - and confronted management with the rules - so everyone else sort of had to return their checks, too... I was popular (yeah, right!) Let's DO SOMETHING!
And if MW is even allowed to be CONSIDERED for the Team, SHAME on the USET! What could they possibly be thinking????

[Snowbird]

Send letters, send email, send faxes and let them know what your think.

My question is if 12 people go through the red light and only one gets caught and gets a ticket does that make him innocent? I don't think so.

The problem is how to catch the other 11 who got away?

[Jumphigh83]

By hiring a CIVILIAN POSSE of course...like the old west..deputize a few of us and let us "go to town"..or better yet, LET the stewards have SOME teeth not just "could you please?? or might you not please do this or that???" How about "stop that now and if I see it again you'll go on a 'vacation'!" and then DO IT!!!!!!! Kissing the offenders butts like they are china dolls is revolting. Hit them once, and hit them HARD and then EVERYONE would think twice or three times before doing anything outside the rules..the way it is now, it's a slap on the wrist (gloved wrist of course) and it has no muscle, no teeth. Say what you mean AND mean what you say..it's that simple.

[Snowbird]

Please remember that everyone is afraid of their personal exposure for liability. Even if they have insurance which many don't it is not a viable policy, and they can not be insured for punitive damages.

Would you risk your family, your retirement and everything you have to be an enforcer? The Steward is an advisor. That is the weakness they have no immunity against prosecution. The AHSA will not send their lawyers to protect them. The daily fee for a Steward with all the risk it entails is so small that most prefer not to steward. Soon there will be a proble for shows to even find stewards.

I think the Steward is the most maligned and abused show official.

[Jumphigh83]

ACCOUNTABLITY. It's funny that the AHSA has none, but they throw their weight around with the lowly exhibitor like a tyrant. The AHSA is a "club" and as such should have immunity from "liability" You aren't forced to join the club it is a privaledge NOT a right..if you break the clubs rules..SEE YA! All this litigious B*llSH*T is so wrong! PERSONAL ACCOUNTABLITY THAT'S what should be foremost in people's mindss NOT how much can I SUE them for....ARRRGGHHHH!

[Snowbird]

You are so right JumpHigh. Yes, the AHSA needs to be accountable and willing to defend their officials and their sanctioned shows if they want the rules enforced because they believe in them as necessary.

They don't, they leave them in the lurch. Even the old rule, a favorite of mine was where the Steward was allowed to tell "anyone" who was guilty of unsportsmanship behavior to leave the show. That was a great rule while it lasted, it sure helped me teach my kids their manners. There was another great idea, that if you exhibited bad manners (like keeping the ring empty, being late in the ring or making nasty hand signals or groans) the judge could give you penalty points against your score. That could cost a ribbon.

Today, because shows are no longer by invitation only the Steward doesn't have that privilege, nor does the judge who might be accused of reducing the value invested in an animal.

[lillian]

As a lawyer, I find this whole issue disconcerting, to some degree, and have had some questions since it all began. I'm not an expert in this field of law, but I believe that it is not illegal to kill a horse in this country. I also seriously doubt that there's any hard law that prevents you from killing it in any fashion you desire, as long as you are the owner, or the owner's legal representative. Horses are classified as "livestock" and "property" in the U.S. Just like cattle, sheep, or chickens, they are not considered companion animals and the courts recognize an owner's right to dispose of livestock or property, as they see fit. Like it or not, that's the law. BW's crime, as I see it, is that he killed a horse (or participated in someway) in order to defraud an insurance company. THAT'S a crime. I believe this, along with some other charges thrown in, is what he was convicted of. What I question is whether the ASHA had a right, based on BW's conviction, to suspend him from the organization. If killing a horse is not a crime, did the ASHA suspend him for defrauding an insurance company? If so, if a member robs a bank, or murders someone, is that person suspended from the ASHA? If cruelty is the issue, does a horse owner and a member of the AHSA, who sends a horse through a sale and it ends up on a rendering truck, breaks it's leg during transport and suffers greatly prior to death, get suspended from the AHSA? I'm unfamiliar with the rule book, not having joined the ASHA over the past years, for personal reasons. So I'm curious as to just what the ASHA suspended BW for. Can the ASHA enforce rules (i.e., killing a horse) that the courts would not recognize as a crime?

[wtywmn4]

Bless you Snowbird, for every Steward out there /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That is true and many stewards have learned the hard way you are out there on a limb.

[shiloh]

Just to correct one thing - Lindemann (a spoiled brat if ever there was one) had the horse killed because he "wasn't winning enough" on the animal. And that's what is boils down to with these people - it's just a thing, an object to gratify their immediate desires, a toy. What jerks....

As far as MacLain representing the US at the Olympics, I should certainly hope NOT! To have this reprehensible man and his actions apparently sanctioned by us - the entire United States - would be a huge blow to our credibility and create in his mind, and in others's, an approval of his "crimes." I think he and his father are loathsome individuals who will not stop whining and trying to justify themselves and their acts so long as they think they have an audience.

Here's an ugly thought: George Lindemann owned Graf George and apparently was not doing so hot on him. Imagine what could have happened if he had not had to sell the horse........would we not have Graf George?
Hmmmmmmmm........

[Hattie]

Thank you Snowbird for the Steward commentary.
I gave up my steward's license back in the early 90's. I couldn't afford the liablilty of all those ponies that had to be remeasured then. There were quite a few that I had to tell them to get another steward to measure them at another show because MANY of those large mediums became small larges and they were moving up with me. Then the AHSA did away with the freebie measurement! There were alot of angry people with ponies that dropped in value and quite a few lawsuits going on! There are a great many of good helpful stewards out there and people do need to remember, they are advisors not enforcers!

[doug]

First of all, I agree with many of the statements given above attacking the Wards.

But I must pipe in (first time since that IHSA scuffle...) because I have problems with the actual writing of the article. To me, the writer didn't seem to ask questions that SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. The questionable parts of both the Ward's lives were breezed over, and only the redemption was pushed.
Personally, I thought the article was a little patronizing and simply bad reporting...

[This message has been edited by doug (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Snowbird]

Good questions! I doubt that anyone is an expert at this kind of law.

1. It may be that the killing is covered under the livestock description, however cruelty is another issue. Electricution, and plastic bags over the head could be illegal under the animal cruelty laws.

2. I am of the opinion that any convicted felon could be suspended or refused membership at least for a time. This not based on my knowledge of the law but my understanding of membership over 30 years. I think that a show manager could refuse to accept their entries and be able to defend the case if it were brought.

I think it was the criminal "conviction" that was used to suspend those penalized and not just their crime definition.

3. Locally we have been dealing with a situation of an "accused" pedophile who is a professional trainer. At least at my shows I would not tolerate that kind of competitor and take my chances in court. There are not many but there are at least four trainers who are not welcome here. They have been told and if they arrived I would refuse their entries, and if they stayed I would call the police. A a private farm I think it would be covered under trespassing where there is a question of risk to other exhibitors.

4. The issue of companion animal vrs. livestock is a very hot item. As horse owners we need the support of the department of agriculture to do research and protect the horses. We also need the support do to the tax benefits we receive as farmers. The animal rights people are seeking to have the horse declared a companion animal like the dog and cat. This could devastate the industry.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Portia]

Lillian, you're right - It is legal to kill a horse that one owns, just as it is legal to kill one's own dog or cat, and that's as it should be or else we would not have the right to end our friends' misery when the time comes. Cruelty to animals, however, is a very different thing and not legal.

Ward was convicted of wire fraud, not horse killing. He may also have been convicted of making threats against the life of certain individuals -- I know that was one of the charges against him. As I understand it, the AHSA suspended B. Ward and the others in the killer/fraud incidents based on the provisions of its Rule VII, Chapter I, Article 701-704. Rule 702 provides in relevant part:

"A violation is an act prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA, including but not limited to the following:
a) Violation of the rules of the AHSA.
...
c) Penalization by an administrative agency, humane society, or court of law for violation of AHSA Rules.
d) Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the AHSA, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or interperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA.
...
f) Physical assault upon a person and/or cruelty to a horse as defined in Article 302.
g) Failure to obey any penalty imposed by the AHSA.
..."

[lillian]

Portia: First off, let me say that I'm not defending the Wards in any way. I find their acts deplorable and unacceptable. That being said, I'm a lawyer and always look to the finer points of law when legalities become an issue! Can't help myself. In any event, the sections of the rule book you mention are extremely vague. Animal cruely laws vary from state to state, but killing a horse outright is not illegal. I seriously doubt that even electrocuting or covering a horse's head with a plastic bag would be deemed cruel in most states. On the other hand, placing a horse in a pen, depriving of them of food and water and letting them slowly starve to death, would be considered cruel and inhumane. Sorry to say, but probably true. I would even stick my neck out on a limb and say that had BW or any of his minions simply killed the horse and walked away (i.e., made no claim to the insurance company), they would not have been convicted of anything.

The AHSA suspension of Ward still puzzles me. If in fact, (and I can't really tell from the section of the rule book you produced) that convicted felons are suspended from the AHSA, they do not apply this rule uniformly. No where on the application is there a section asking if the potentional member has ever been convicted of a felony. Besides, how would they police this policy? I, for one, would venture to say that there are dozens of current members who have felony convictions. I, myself, personally know of one. This guy has a felony drug conviction and is currently a member in good standing, attending shows, training, selling, etc. So, unless a rule is uniformly applied throughout the membership, one could argue that it has no standing. This begs the question. If BW was not convicted of killing a horse, or cruelty to a horse, how can the ASHA suspend him? From what I understand, he never laid a hand on the horse. I certainly don't want cause a huge argument here, but I find this sort of controversy typical of the ASHA. It's one of the reasons I choose not to belong to this ineffectual and irritating organization!

[Black Market Radio]

Lillian, I don't know if you know this, but Portia is a lawyer as well!

[Portia]

Lillian - It never occurred to me that you were defending the horse killers, and I hope my post didn't come across as antagonistic, because I sure didn't mean it to be! I understand the way lawyers are taught to think -- I'm a lawyer too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You were right on the law, and on the facts; I was just trying to give you the citation to the basis for the suspension.

I absolutely agree with you that the AHSA rule is horribly vague. I doubt very mucht that it would pass Constitutional muster if it were a statute and someone challenged it as void for vagueness. Anyone who's seen my posts over the months knows I HATE the way the AHSA rules are written and organized -- if you want to call it organization. Who in the world organizes a code by Part-Rule-Chapter-Article, and designating Part, Rule, and Chapter all with Roman numerals? hmmph. I'm engaged in a completely unsolicited, and very likely unwanted, project of trying to reformat the AHSA rules to make them more readable, but it's going to be a long haul. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 04-14-2000).]

[lillian]

Portia -- oh, no -- I found your comments interesting and to the point. I didn't want anyone else on this board thinking that in some way I was defending the Wards. I think if I saw one of them at a show, I'd start throwing rocks, or something. I'm not a shrinking violet, if you know what I mean! You're right, lawyers are trained to look at things objectively and without emotion. I can see, now that I know you're a lawyer too, that you'd want some sort of reorganization of the rule book -- what a mess!

I've only occasionally visited this board and don't have the full details on the BW issue. However, I'm interested, does anyone know if BW has sued the AHSA over his suspension? I hate to say this, but from what little I know, he may have a case.

I would add, that even the horse community shunning this man would probably have no effect on him whatsoever. He seriously believes he's done nothing wrong, and even if he has, he's "paid his debt", says he. True, but the broken trust he has caused in the horse community has done damage that is beyond compare. In a sport that attempts to build character in young persons, shows them that hard work and persistence pays off, and that dedication to the health and well being of your equine partner will get you far in life, BW comes along and provides a horrible example of what can go wrong with the sport. Ironically, from what I understand, his son came up the hard way, and look how far he's fallen, possibly due to his father's influence throughout his life. Just goes to show that talent isn't everything and that you stand to lose everything when you don't play by the rules.

[Snowbird]

Thank you both. I have enjoyed the discourse. I managed to get New Jersey the Equine Activites Law passed. And, in my position on the NJ Horse Council and NFIB, I am a person who desperately believes in "lawS". I do so agree that it is the loop holes that give an area for "interpretation".

I can not comprehend why the AHSA attorneys are not required to participate in the rules process. Pwynn and I sent in 10 rules changes and the process of doing that opened my eyes as to how the shoddy rule making process happens. There is no debate or opportunity to barter changes. There is no opportunity for the legals to check for conflicts of interpretation between various sections, articles and chapters. It is designed to keep the average person with an idea silent. If PWynn and I were not so stubborn, it wouldn't even have made the first step.

I have little doubt that without a ground swell of hysteria from the grassroots all 10 will be filed in the round floor file after a good chuckle. It is irrelevant whether the ideas are good or not.

I have heard (hearsay only) that there has been an Executive Committee Meeting which has already approved the addition of the PHR. There has been no study made as to workability or impact. I also have heard that every horse entered in every AHSA Horse Show will be required to be registered with it.

Since the Press Release indicates it will not change the current system, this implies to me that it means another registration fee to another department of AHSA.

As a show manager I wonder how we are supposed to certify that the same horse competing is the same horse registered? None of this information is available.

To this extent I am just a "touch" sympathetic to the Ward dilemma. Not at all for what they have done and been convicted of, not at all for what they have expressed as their opinions and beliefs, but like you as a matter of rules and regulations which have been corrupted by an undemocratic association.

I wonder if either of you have considered what rights exist for members of a Non-Profit Corporation? What laws are there that protect members in a case like this? Are there regulations which can be applied not just for the illegal actions to slide through but for those of us who honestly love this industry?

My concern is the impact on all the states and their economy which is dependent on the Horse Industry for so large a part of the Gross Income, and employment. This seems to be ignored.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 04-14-2000).]

[Janet]

I think BW DID challenge the AHSA's right to suspend him in a NY court. The AHSA won, but I don't remember the precise details. I DON'T think he was challenging the vagueness of the rule, but simply their right to suspend him.

[Lily]

More specifically, I believe Barney was challenging the rule that forbids him from attending any shows as a spectator- he didn't think the AHSA had the right to ban him from attending a public event.

[lillian]

I wonder if either of you have considered what rights exist for members of a Non-Profit Corporation? What laws are there that protect members in a case like this? Are there regulations which can be applied not just for the illegal actions to slide through but for those of us who honestly love this industry?

Snowbird: My past experience indicates, that believe it or not, not-for-profits live by a different set of rules and have less responsbility in the same way that a publically-held company has to answer to a board and shareholders. While the AHSA has a board, are the board members elected by the general membership? I'm not aware that they are. Aren't they appointed, or at best, elected at the annual meeting where only a small majority of the members attend? If this is the case, chances for changes are slim to none. If the general membership of an organization cannot directly affect the outcome of rule changes, enforcement, etc. they are out of luck.

Usually for something to change, the organization has to be sucessfully sued and the suit has to have a major financial impact. The problem, as I see it with the AHSA, is that they encourage a meek and silent membership because people are forced to join in order to attend shows and win awards. There is no ownership of the organization by the members, and they could care less how its run. With no accountability to the membership, the AHSA can (and does) get away with whatever it wants, which includes "selective" punishments, vague rules, and arbitrary enforcement.

To put it simply, I don't have an answer to your question. As long as the majority of the members are willing to put up with this treatment, it will continue. Perhaps the problem lies with the shows themselves. I've always had a vague feeling that there's something wrong with a system that requires I join an organization in order to participate. Perhaps, herein lies the problem. AHSA knows it has everyone over a barrel, including show organizers and management. Let me tell you, the unapproved shows are starting to look more and more attractive -- but that's a whole other story!

The ASHA is doing nothing illegal, from what I can determine, and no, you probably don't, as a member, have much in the way of rights. AHSA determines the rules, when you join you agree to abide by those rules, end of story. One could make a weak argument that you have to belong to the AHSA to participate in the shows, but the AHSA gets around this by allowing for the payment of a non-member fee at the shows. Show management further solidifies the case by agreeing to this condition in order for the AHSA to grant the show approval.

Maybe BW, if he has filed suit, will shake the whole thing up. We'll have to wait and see. Sorry to get off the original topic, but I could go on and on about the AHSA!

[poltroon]

IIRC, Lindemann filed suit and mounted a rather aggressive attack on the AHSA and its right to suspend him. He lost.

[Lily]

Barney Ward lost his lawsuit against the AHSA, I believe.

[Twister]

I am not 100% certain, but I believe he mounted a case saying the AHSA's jurisdiction on spectating was limited to NY. In any case, he lost. Rule vagueness or not, the rules of the AHSA have generally been upheld when there were taken to court.

[N&B&T]

Yes, he did lose...a report was posted somewhere--anyone recall where?

[Lily]

Nancey, I'll try looking through the Chronicle's archives later and let you know if I find anything...it might have been in the NY Times as well.

[Lily]

Nancey,
I just checked the Chronicle's "In the Country" archives- the report is in the Jan. 21 edition. The gist is,

"On Tuesday, Jan. 11, New York Judge Leland DeGrasse ruled that the AHSA could bar Barney from attending horse shows as a spectator and that he had violated his suspension by attending shows in Florida and New Hampshire in 1999. DeGrasse also ruled that the AHSA has the power to enforce its suspension in states other than New York, where the AHSA is incorporated."

The lawsuit was also mentioned in several other back editions. Hope this helps! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[N&B&T]

Thanks, Lily, I thought it might have been the Chronicle.

[Sit up Add leg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JRG:
That is why I am still waiting for all the facts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh Hello?!?!?!?!?!.....I thought all the facts were in regarding Barney Ward. ANd a jury of his peers found him guilty. The AHSA has barred him from any AHSA show grounds for X years. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Sit up Add leg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lillian:
So I'm curious as to just what the ASHA suspended BW for. Can the ASHA enforce rules (i.e., killing a horse) that the courts would not recognize as a crime? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the AHSA can enforce rules that the courts would not consider to be a crime. For ex. I don't think it is a court crime to drug a horse, but it is to the AHSA. ALSO,
I think the AHSA can kick people out, who they feel are not representing the association well. ( Same as with ice skating and Tonya Harding.) The ice-skating governing association kicked her out, because the felt that she was not an upstanding member of their association.

BTW, I don't think that the courts found that killing a horse was illegal. The courts didn't like the insurance FRAUD part of the whole thing.

No one seems to talk about that part. With insurance FRAUD so rampant in this industry, it causes rates to go up for all of us, I'd like to hear comments on that from this group.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sit up Add leg:

Oh Hello?!?!?!?!?!.....I thought all the facts were in regarding Barney Ward. ANd a jury of his peers found him guilty. The AHSA has barred him from any AHSA show grounds for X years. Correct me if I am wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barney never went to trial. He pleaded guilty to several counts of wire fraud, I believe.

[arlenejn]

Erin, you are correct. BW pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud on 3/19/96

[lillian]

Dear Sit Up:

Ah, but the argument is, does the AHSA arbitrarily decide? My beef is that the AHSA is rather "selective" about who it punishes and who it doesn't. I personally find drug dealing and drug use offensive and believe that a member convicted of such crimes should be expelled for life. The AHSA says no. However, a man convicted of wire fraud, (and, remember, he never laid a hand on the horse), is suspended for life. Go figure!

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lillian:
Dear Sit Up:

Ah, but the argument is, does the AHSA arbitrarily decide? My beef is that the AHSA is rather "selective" about who it punishes and who it doesn't. I personally find drug dealing and drug use offensive and believe that a member convicted of such crimes should be expelled for life. The AHSA says no. However, a man convicted of wire fraud, (and, remember, he never laid a hand on the horse), is suspended for life. Go figure!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<shrug> Baseball banned Pete Rose for gambling and has not yet reinstated him but there are players with repeated drug offenses that are given chance after chance. For whatever reason the Powers That Be decided that gambling is more prejudicial to the game than drug use.

It may be a reflection on our society that we see drug use as a "weakness" or "sickness" and wire fraud or gambling as a reprehensible act.

I'll be honest when I say I have not really resolved ANY of this in my own mind. I'm not sure if it's quite fair that BW can't sit in the stands and spectate but, then again, short of shackling him to his seat I fail to see how you could prevent him from "visiting" the stabling, schooling area, etc.

[pwynnnorman]

Good point, Chrissy. It makes no sense about Pete Rose. I'm not into baseball, but he must really rub the right people the wrong way. Some players have been charged with attempted MURDER, for chis' sake! And look at that Darryl Strawberry. How many times was he caught?

BTW, there some interesting, years later, fines and suspensions involving forbidden substances this month in Horse Show, weren't there? There seems to be a new drug name cropping up a lot. (I don't have the mag in front of me.) It is administered with two others. Does anyone here know what it is. I think it begins with an "r"? (Maybe not. I just can't remember.)

[Quinn]

Reserpine.

[Ash]

Wasn't reserpine big in the 70's? I seem to remember a book I read as a kid called "The Monday Horses" that dealt with a pony injuring it's rider because it had been given reserpine.

[Kathy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lillian:
Dear Sit Up:

Ah, but the argument is, does the AHSA arbitrarily decide? My beef is that the AHSA is rather "selective" about who it punishes and who it doesn't. I personally find drug dealing and drug use offensive and believe that a member convicted of such crimes should be expelled for life. The AHSA says no. However, a man convicted of wire fraud, (and, remember, he never laid a hand on the horse), is suspended for life. Go figure!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lillian,

I just had to reply to your message. Even though BW was convicted of wire fraud by the courts, I don't think the AHSA suspended him for that solely. It was what that wire fraud was connected to--involvement in horse killing. Maybe he didn't kill the horses himself, but he made it possible for others to do so easily. Also, did he set these killings up for nothing? I don't know all of the facts, but he must have received something for his "help." This type of behavior is unacceptable. I think the AHSA was correct in suspending him.

[Glimmerglass]

Barney is a topic unto himself and as a convicted person he certainly will have "baggage" that will follow up him forever.

McLain is a different story as I'm not overly convinced that the various accusations against have been correct. Now I wonder with his engagement to Megan Johnstone will this on-going and wide dislike of the Wards - any of them - will it rub off onto her too?

[pwynnnorman]

No, then that must not have been it. I've heard of that one. This was something I hadn't seen much before on those pages of Horse Show. Three or four were set down because of this mix. There were three different drugs and I think one was flunixin (as usual) and maybe another WAs reserpine, but there was this third one...

[pwynnnorman]

No, I've heard of that. It's been around awhile. I'll look it up when I get home.

[Kathy]

This is a bit off subject, but Chrissy, I think baseball's condemnation of Pete Rose does make sense in context of the history of baseball. In 1919, members of the Chicago White Sox were paid by gamblers to throw the World Series. This was a huge scandal at the time. Obviously, baseball has a long institutional memory. The sport can't afford to tolerate players' involvement in betting on games (however, Rose apparently never bet on his own team); it corrupts the sport.

[ccoronios]

and the reprehensible acts of Wards (and others who haven't been caught/convicted) DON'T "corrupt the sport"?????????

[Kathy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
and the reprehensible acts of Wards (and others who haven't been caught/convicted) DON'T "corrupt the sport"?????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding your post or if you misunderstood mine, but my post about Rose was not intended to defend those who break the rules of their respective sports organizations. A couple of posters seemed mystified as to why Rose was so heavily penalized for gambling on baseball games. If you see my post a few "windows" above, you will see my opinion on BW's suspension. I certainly agree with you that those who break the rules of any sport (whether they are caught or not) are corrupting the sport.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
BTW, there some interesting, years later, fines and suspensions involving forbidden substances this month in Horse Show, weren't there? There seems to be a new drug name cropping up a lot. (I don't have the mag in front of me.) It is administered with two others. Does anyone here know what it is. I think it begins with an "r"? (Maybe not. I just can't remember.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"naproxen, keptoprofen and phenylbutazone", tolmetin, mepivacaine, "flunixin, meclofenamic acid, and naproxen", acepromazine (in '98). Nothing starting with an r.

[ccoronios]

Roxi - I think we're on the same wavelength - but I had to emphatically react in case others thought you meant that gambling corrupted the national sport and killing horses (directly or indirectly) was ok since it's just a rich person's hobby and not a "REAL SPORT". (PLEASE, everyone - I AM BEING *VERY* SARCASTIC HERE!!!! )

[EquiMom]

Just some thoughts about BW's suspension and bar from spectating...Right after all of this horror hit the media, whenever I was in the stands watching MW compete, a furious, hushed whispering accompanied his entrance into the ring. "That's Barney Ward's son--his father is the one who..."

As a parent, my heart ached for one so young--who was seemingly the innocent "receptor" of all the heat and outrage visited upon his father. Yet, as time went by, his amazing talent overshadowed the spectre of those nefarious doings--and I seldom heard..."That's BW's son who..."

The point is only this--if, as a parent, BW were truly contrite about his involvement, he could have willingly (if not happily) sacrificed his own interests--in furtherance of his son's right to a personal "identity" exclusive of his tarnished one. By not instigating the re-hashing of the sordid apects and details of his case, he could have taken a noble and redeeming stance in the eyes of many--and offered a sterling example of responsible conduct to his young son. By not allowing his bitterness to become a loyal child's burden, a bright star might have continued to emerge, unsullied. The defensive and self-aggrandizing stance that the younger Ward has now adopted regarding Olympic aims will surely follow him...long after the debate over his claims pertaining to the veracity of the charges leveled against him, which resulted in his suspension. As a parent, I would not want this to be my only (publicly) perceived legacy.

[N&B&T]

Absolutely agree.

[Snowbird]

EquiMom,
I agree with you. I think that it is the behavior of BW that has affected the sttitude of MW.Yes, it is a pity but you have to deal with it.

Coping a plea is never an answer for anyone but illustrates the tendency to accept guilt to perpetuate personal glory, safety or benefit. This is not an indication of sincere
regret for the incident but regret for having been caught. It is the present weakness of the entire system and is far greater than just the current guilty pleas in our industry.