Barn blind? Ignorant? Or intentionally misstating? [Archive]

Dunhorse

Oct. 10, 2002, 01:37 PM

Sigh. Unfortunately, those people are most likely NOT just barn blind. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Apart from the severe over-at-the-knee conformation (usually you find calf knees instead), that is what a lot of "halter" people are looking for. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif That baby has the "square" build, stick neck, upright pasterns, short humerous, and posty hocks that often win in the AQHA halter world. It potentially could win at halter. Pretty sad, isn't it?

Just look at the foal's dam. Severely over at the knee, poor hock and shoulder angle, absolutely no bone what-so-ever, and standing Grand at shows. Sigh. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Do not even get me STARTED on the hypp n/h issue. Non-symptomatic DOES NOT mean that that horse will not ever show symptoms, or that it is not perfectly capable of throwing offspring which are severely affected. That does not stop people from exclaiming that their horse is non-symptomatic to unedjucated buyers, or those halter breeders who do not care either way.

A great deal of the "world class" halter horses out there would break into little pieces if they were ever subjected to regular riding. If you ever want to have a fun time judging conformation, pick up an AQHA Journal and check out the halter horses. It is sure to be a fun time.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Sonesta

Oct. 10, 2002, 01:42 PM

Alagirl, My former inlaws were from Alabama. My father in law was for many years way back when the dean of the journalism department at U of Alabama. He always used to say that he wanted to write a book entitled "Born in Pickens County and Raised Under THEM Conditions." I wish he had. It would have been a hoot.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) Hanoverian, Knabstrupper & Arabian Sport Horses

"Find something you love & call it work."

Alagirl

Oct. 10, 2002, 03:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sonesta:
Alagirl, My former inlaws were from Alabama. My father in law was for many years way back when the dean of the journalism department at U of Alabama. He always used to say that he wanted to write a book entitled "Born in Pickens County and Raised Under THEM Conditions." I wish he had. It would have been a hoot.

http://www.sonestafarms.com Hanoverian, Knabstrupper & Arabian Sport Horses

"Find something you love & call it work."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that from a native /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Can you imagine, how this transplanted gal from Germany feels at times /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But the kicker was last election, one Al. woman proclaiming that she would not vote for Bush, since didn't bring the Lottery to Alabama /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (last time I looked, Texas and Bama didn't sound the same...)

<SIGH>

Just wish they had some activities here - or bothered to put the club in the phone book or something. Like they don't want anybody not from around to join them...

Ahhhhhh, Sweet home Alabama...

Sublime

Oct. 10, 2002, 03:38 PM

I think halter Quarter Horses look like beef cows.......

~*~Sublime~*~

"One good thing about music: when it hits you, you feel no pain."-Bob Marley

All points

Oct. 10, 2002, 03:41 PM

Poor thing is terrible, I feel sorry for it. I don't think it is walking away, sadly it looks like that is the way it stands. She would be good to use in teaching conformation faults. Barn blind and ignorant.

Lisamarie8

Oct. 10, 2002, 05:34 PM

Like Dunhorse said. Look at the mother.

Dam (http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1034040850&0)

Not only could you use a front leg as a boomerang but it honestly looks like a bad photoshop job. Draw a line along the shoulder, and it looks like the head and neck belongs on a horse standing back by the fence.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It's sad actually. If these were just someone's pets I would NEVER dream of being so critical, but they're presenting them to the public for sale, and for breeding no less. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

tuffenuff

Oct. 10, 2002, 05:57 PM

What is with the front end OY!!!!!!!

Little Indian

Oct. 10, 2002, 06:10 PM

it actually looks like in the dam's picture, her leg is up (you can see the hoof is at an angle in the shadow.) but i agree, the filly has very bad knees

Bumpkin

Oct. 10, 2002, 06:13 PM

EEEKKKK
Did that say she had the foal when she was a 2 year old?

Palomino Leopard WB

Oct. 10, 2002, 07:17 PM

I think this one beats the picture of the yearling for sale with a little boy (not so little) on it's back.
As bad as the filly looks I believe the mare looks worse conformation wise, not a promising thought what the filly will grow up to look like. It does look like another horses neck and head have been put on that mare, very odd looking. Poor conformation in the hind end and front legs. Sad thing is the price listed for both horses...

Oct. 11, 2002, 05:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lisamarie8:
Not only could you use a front leg as a boomerang but it honestly looks like a bad photoshop job. Draw a line along the shoulder, and it looks like the head and neck belongs on a horse standing back by the fence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a huge problem with most pictures taken of QH's, particularly (it seems) those of the Halter type. The pictures are taken to make the butt appear as large as possible, and the result is the Incredibly Shrunken Voodoo Head.

Little Indian - yep, the left front leg is off the ground, but the right front definitely has a curve to it that shouldn't be there, especially with the whole weight of the front end on it. Look at the back of the leg and you can see it better.

jcotton

Oct. 11, 2002, 06:23 PM

Not all beef cattle are built like that!!!!!
At least mine(cattle) do not have contracted tendons in front or non-exsistent hocks(not enough angle to the hocks). And my cows must have shorter necks with some leather(dewlaps) with sheath and level hooks & pins. And solid bone with very good personalities.

But I agree that this filly should never be shown to the public. And why didn't she have check ligament surgery to correct that front leg-- What does the front leg look like?--when she was between 2 months and 3 months. If this is heriditary, ---euthanize the animal or never ever sell it or let it never be seen. It trauma related, still hide it or never sell it. In my opinion, it is the breeeder's responsibilty to cull what does not represent the breed to its highest quality, or make sure it is not reproduced(colts--gelded. fillies--???you decide).

Paloma

Oct. 12, 2002, 07:00 AM

C'mon, guys! This is the twisted world of the AQHA, where they see nothing wrong with breaking horses at 15 months so they can compete in 2 year old futurities in reining (at 18 months), round-penning them to death, never turning them out, standing them tied in stalls after being worked to a sweat then wrapped in neoprene to shrink them, breeding for size OOO feet on 1500 lb bodies, and requiring that all horses over age 5 show in a curb bit. Oh, I forgot about the steroids to give the beefcake look to the yearlings, and that most of them get navicular by age 7. Did I leave anything out? Oh, yeah, peanut-rolling! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

>> If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<

Tannenwald Trakehner

Oct. 12, 2002, 08:54 AM

I knew a person who had a QH judge's card, along with several other cards. She said she tore up the QH card at a show, after being instructed that in judging halter she was not to look below the knee. Seems halter QH's are definitely not geared for riding.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Alagirl

Oct. 12, 2002, 10:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
I knew a person who had a QH judge's card, along with several other cards. She said she tore up the QH card at a show, after being instructed that in judging halter she was not to look below the knee. Seems halter QH's are definitely not geared for riding.

http://www.atrakehner.com, Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:::::::::Rolling on the floor, laughing hystericaly::::::

I never understood the reason for having a horse to just show it in hand, but that is by far the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.
But then, I think the horses are not too impotant anyway, as long as the human wears the right "en voge" outfit - I would not dare to call it *clothes* /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and the horse looks like it was spraypainted by Breyer...
Wicked world.
I don't think every horse has to be ridden, but they sure ought to be able to handle it /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The poor horses.
Fortunately, they are way overprised, so the common Redneck won't dare to throw a saddle on the pathetic creature... /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Evalee Hunter

Oct. 12, 2002, 10:39 AM

My cousin's long time "spose" breeds QHs (in upstate NY). She round pens them but I never see them ridden so I asked once if she ever rode them & I was told they were "too valuable" to ride. I said "oh" because I know that some of our horses could be sold for more money than her QHs (I know what prices she is able to sell for) & our horses are expected to gallop xc over jumps.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Alagirl

Oct. 12, 2002, 10:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evalee Hunter:
My cousin's long time "spose" breeds QHs (in upstate NY). She round pens them but I never see them ridden so I asked once if she ever rode them & I was told they were "too valuable" to ride. I said "oh" because I know that some of our horses could be sold for more money than her QHs (I know what prices she is able to sell for) & our horses are expected to gallop xc over jumps.

http://www.rougelandfarm.com Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Redneck is a state of mind, not of geography /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They have plenty of Rednecks all over the world /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Paloma

Oct. 12, 2002, 03:57 PM

Well, being the Type-A trouble maker that I am, I e-mailed the owner to see if they had any more flattering pictures of the filly because, "surely the camera angle must be contributing to the illusion that the filly is over at the knee. But the photo cannot be accurate. After all, a true model horse would never have such a serious conformation flaw". /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Haven't heard back yet. Gee I wonder why...? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

>> If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<

Sonesta

Oct. 13, 2002, 05:29 AM

OH, Chimeara, you are a bad one! Sounds like something I would have done (except that I started this thread and thought it would be WAY tacky of me at that point). Did you tell them about this thread?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Let us know if you hear anything.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) Hanoverian, Knabstrupper & Arabian Sport Horses

"Find something you love & call it work."

HeyYouNags

Oct. 14, 2002, 07:41 AM

I have some clients who are getting more and more into the QH halter scene. They're really nice people, and genuinely care about their horses, but the more I learn from them, the madder I get.

We complain about the abuse and mistreatment of racing TBs, but I think the QH world is perhaps the most guilty of horse abuse.

And to second what some other posters have said, we may think that filly looks deformed, but she has quite a few desirable characteristics for halter classes. The judges still want the young horses fattened up like pigs, nevermind what it does to their tendons. The horses wind up so fat and overmuscled that they walk like pigs. And the goal is to get plenty of halter points by the time they're 2, and breed the fillies young. I don't want to know what becomes of the geldings.

Yuck.

HFSH

Oct. 14, 2002, 09:11 AM

I have a friend who's in the QH world. The stories she tells me curls my hair. From what I've heard, the halter horses aren't expected much to live past 7-9 years. They founder and die. Don't ya love watching the big beefcake mare shown in halter with a lip chain? They feed them to the point they want to explode, then strap on a lip chain to show. Sick sick stuff. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Home of the RPSI & AWR approved stallion, Remarkable. Homozygous for BLACK!
The ALL NEW "I hate Physical Therapy Clique" *MidWest Clique* *Crippled Knee Clique*

Sophie 71

Oct. 14, 2002, 01:32 PM

I just picked up a western-type magazine that they were giving away at my feed store. There was an article on "fitting the halter horse" and they interviewd some big QH halter horse trainer. Every day, the horses are fed and tied in the morning, brought out for "exercise", which consists of having the horse jogged behind an ATV for about 20 minutes "only in a straight line, NO turning". Then they are tied up again, fed at 5pm, and then the lights go out.

The article was written so that the reader was to assume that this trainer's methods were great. After all, he was winning!

findeight

Oct. 14, 2002, 01:41 PM

I wouldn't condemn a whole breed based on this pathetic individual and those trying to unload it.

Face it, they aren't trying to sell her at an AQHA site or auction and they are selling the dam that produced her too. They're just trying to get some money for it from somebody too ignorant to know any better.

I still have friends active with this breed so y'all lighten up on the QH folks a bit. Don't form opinions based on this picture or an article you disagree with.

Most are very good to their horses and strive to be honest in all dealings.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

creseida

Oct. 14, 2002, 02:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by findeight:
I still have friends active with this breed so y'all lighten up on the QH folks a bit. Don't form opinions based on this picture or an article you disagree with.

Most are very good to their horses and strive to be honest in all dealings.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad your friends are among the Few Good (Wo)Men left in the QH world. My opinion about the QH world is similar to those who have posted previously. Not because of the one article or this one pathetic filly for sale, but because of what I've seen at several QH barns and shows with my own two eyes, and heard with my own two ears.

The "Day in the life of a Halter QH" article does not differ significantly from what I've seen. They left out the part about keeping blankets (not sheets) on them year 'round, and neck sweats 24/7. The rest, being worked hard for 30 minutes (no walking or warm-up) then tied in a stall to sweat is commonplace. Navicular, colic and laminitis are common ailments, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

sixpoundfarm

Oct. 14, 2002, 05:40 PM

Just cruise around some of the QH for sale sights,
ie: QHD.com and you are bound to find more tough to bear sights of horses..
check out

Miss Cool Trouble (http://qhd.com/photos/14556fs.jpg) "Healthy, sound and ready to breed for 2003 N/H "

Secure in her future (http://qhd.com/photos/13308fs.jpg) "Beautiful big body and gorgeous head. HYPP N/H "

Quite sad

Six Pound Farm http://www.geocities.com/sixpoundfarm

[This message was edited by sixpoundfarm on Oct. 15, 2002 at 09:56 AM.]

stronghold

Oct. 15, 2002, 02:35 PM

They never get to be horses. No turnout, always blanketed and or/sweated, insufficient exercise, bred for non functional conformation, and then being so overfed that they have no hope of staying sound. How can they call it "fitting"?

I remember reading the obituary of a a champion halter stallion in the QH Journal, I'd seen his ad many times and noticed how fat he was, so it stood out to me. He was under ten, and died of heart failure. What a waste. Not to mention all the deaths from colic, navicular or laminitis.

I always thought that the idea of showing a horse for conformation was to showcase the breed/sport ideal. To pick the animal who exemplefies what the lomg range goals of a breeder should be. A horse that is harmoniously built, sound, free from defects that lead to unsoundness, good temperment, and lastly, has a pretty face/colour/markings should be the winner.

Most of those western halter horses (not limiting to QH's) are bred for such unrealistic ideals. Who thought that a 1500lb horse would look good on 00 feet? (My finely built 16.3 WB is about 1100 lbs and wears size 2 shoes) These poor animals look like stuffed sausages, and they will never be able to do anything that requires the least bit of physical effort. And don't get me started on the creation of a genetic disease that is able to be tested for, and could be FULLY eradicated by simply not breeding individuals that have that trait. That is purely irresponsible!

There is no doubt in my mind that they are abused. And the worst form of abuse at that, abuse in search of the almighty dollar.

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Beezer

Oct. 15, 2002, 03:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by stronghold:

I always thought that the idea of showing a horse for conformation was to showcase the breed/sport ideal. To pick the animal who exemplefies what the lomg range goals of a breeder should be.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Quarter Horses have a monopoly on breeding *different* kinds of horses for halter than for performance. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif One could make the same observation about Appys, Arabians, Paints and others.

Heck, I was always greatly puzzled by results of many of the warmblood breed/sporthorse shows out here. I would have thought that if the intent of the breed was to produce sporthorses, then the horse that won in-hand in its breed class would also be the winner in the in-hand sporthorse class. But it almost never happened. Which, like I said, was always a puzzle I couldn't work out.

Proud member of the "Huh. I thought I'd fixed that" phase of baby green hunter ownership.

CourtneyLiz

Oct. 15, 2002, 03:30 PM

what HYPP N/H and H/H means?
I understand it has to do with a genetic disease, but which one? what are the effects of the disease?

Thanks
Courtney

Tucked_Away

Oct. 15, 2002, 04:27 PM

Thank you, Impressive... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.aqha.com/association/registration/hypp.html

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/hypp/hypp_facts.html

Erin

Oct. 15, 2002, 04:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:

This is a huge problem with most pictures taken of QH's, particularly (it seems) those of the Halter type. The pictures are taken to make the butt appear as large as possible, and the result is the Incredibly Shrunken Voodoo Head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coming into this thread late, but just had to say that I burst out laughing at the very apt Incredibly Shrunken Voodoo Head description! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was wondering what the hell they thought they were doing with that picture... but that angle makes sense if you want to amplify the butt. Of course, it makes the horse look stupid, but at least the butt also looks big. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CourtneyLiz

Oct. 15, 2002, 04:53 PM

I'm pretty surprised that people continue to breed horses that are N/H. Certainly seems counterintuitive.

Courtney

Evalee Hunter

Oct. 15, 2002, 06:00 PM

The REASON they keep breeding HYPP positive horses for halter is that one of the side effects of HYPP is that the muscles become super-large (can't think of the right word). Even in horses that are asymptomatic for HYPP, the muscles are constantly undergoing tiny (unnoticeable) contractions which cause the muscles to become larger & larger, almost a caricature of the usual horse. This is why Impressive was so successful in the ring & as a sire. This super-large musculature is regarded as so desirable that they purposely breed horses that are HYPP positive for the halter ring.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Dunhorse

Oct. 15, 2002, 09:39 PM

Well. I just got back from three days at the AQHA Congress. The shopping was excellent, some of the showing was enjoyable, and it was a very good time.

I was able to see true "world class" halter horses in person for the first time. If you think the pictures of the halter moos are bad, you really should see them in person. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif The pictures truely do not do these horses justice. The crooked legs, microscopic feet, and overdone musculature are truely enlightening.

If you close enough to check out the show and have a strong stomach, you really need to see stallion ally. There are several former world champion halter horses availible for viewing. The most muscular of these, Kids Classic Style, literally made me sick to my stomach. He was literally 4 feet wide, with forearms that had to measure over 28 inches around, blown out knees the size of soccer balls, about 7 inches of bone, large osslets, small feet, gaskins like basket balls, pronounced cow hocks, and literally dripping with fat. I could have curled my entire body into one of the horsess butt cheeks. Too top it all off, this horse is HYPP N/H. People were coming up and exclaiming that the horse was gorgeous. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Truely enlightening.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Evalee Hunter

Oct. 16, 2002, 02:39 AM

see my post before yours.

The supersized musculature is a clue. I read an article once by a QH judge who said the HYPP gene would quickly be eliminated from the breed if halter judges would QUIT PLACING horses with that physique.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Dunhorse

Oct. 16, 2002, 05:24 AM

Evalee,

I have done extensive reading into HYPP over several years and fully understand about the effects of isometric muscular contractions bulking up the muscle. I like to know the why and how of a diseases pathology. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You simply did a nice job of explaining why HYPP causes the massive musculature of positive horses. I did not feel that I needed to cover the same territory again. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The HYPP horses could be more quickly eliminated from the stock horse breeds if the almighty dollar did not take precidence over the health of the animals within the breed. HYPP is listed as a genetic defect in the rule book, in the same section which names a parrot/undershot mouth and cryptorchidism/monorchidism as severely penalized faults in the halter ring. HYPP however, is not penalized. It would be simple to identify positive horses within a class simply by absolutely requiring a decendent of Impressive to be tested, and then penalizing those horses which test positive to the degree that they could not place in the show ring. (Currently, horses decending from untested or known positive parentage simply have the notation, "This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect. AQHA recommends testing to confirm the presence or absence of this gene." They are not absolutely required to be tested.)

AQHA could also go a step above simply heavily penalizing HYPP positive horses by requiring any animal which tests positive be gelded if male or if female, either spayed or ineligible as breeding stock. This step would drastically cut into the money flowing through the halter industry, however, and will probably never come to pass.

Nothing will get done if the association continues to evade the hypp issue. (Not surprising as rule changes must be voted for by members, many of which would loose money if Hypp was strictly regulated.) In general, the breeders and buyers of halter horses do not seem able to police themselves. Greed takes over and many delude themselves that because their horses are "well cared for", their HYPP status does not matter. Run a search on line for the Halter Horse discussion forum. Again, truely enlightening.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[This message was edited by Dunhorse on Oct. 16, 2002 at 09:50 AM.]

creseida

Oct. 16, 2002, 05:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evalee Hunter:
see my post before yours.

The supersized musculature is a clue. I read an article once by a QH judge who said the HYPP gene would quickly be eliminated from the breed if halter judges would QUIT PLACING horses with that physique.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or, better yet, if the AQHA would stop allowing any foal except HYPP N/N foals to be registered /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif, then people would stop breeding HYPP carriers, because they would simply be unregisterable "grade" horses.

They go so far as to say they consider HYPP to be "among conditions commonly considered undesirable traits or genetic defects, such as parrot mouth and cryptorchidism". /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Yeah, those are annoying flaws, but they won't kill the horse, or the unfortunate soul who happens to be riding an HYPP+ horse when it falls over in a seizure. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

sixpoundfarm

Oct. 16, 2002, 05:46 AM

Kids Classic Style (http://www.tallentquarterhorses.com/kidsclassicstyle.htm)

Six Pound Farm http://www.geocities.com/sixpoundfarm

Dunhorse

Oct. 16, 2002, 05:53 AM

Sixpoundfarm,

Unfortunately, the horse's website put up by his former owners appears to have been taken down. The pictures were MUCH more graphic and really highlighted the deformed body builder appearence. I wish that you could have seen it.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Norsire

Oct. 16, 2002, 05:56 AM

He does not look 16.3 hds to me at all. Dunnhorse did he look 16.3 hds? Have any of you ever seen a video of one of these fine animals loose in a field trotting? I have, and 15 seconds into the video, I had to cut it off. I was making me so sick and quezie! As, they trotted through a field, I literally was waiting for their lower leggs to break off from underneath of them. The lower leggs looked so bendable and wobblely, I really thought I could witness the lower legg breaking in half!!! I could not watch the video and this as some 10 years ago. I doubt they let them trot in a field, due to the fact that some probably did break their legs!!! YUK!!!!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:07 AM

as my precious RRB is not only a QH but also was extremely successful as a halter horse (10th at World Congress as a three year old) and he doesn't look ANYTHING like the pictures I've seen. He's only seven years old, so he would have won 10th in 1998 (?) Have standards changed so very much in 4 years?

This is RRB all braided up ready to be bridled before our first show. You can see he doesn't look like a bull... his face IS small, as are his feet. And yes, his grandaddy WAS Impressive. His mind is wonderful, he got oodles of character and he moves beautifully... yes, even on a circle.

Why the HUGE difference?

Just a thought...
KT

Dunhorse

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:07 AM

Um NO. He definately did not look 16.3 hh. I had estimated him at 16-16.1 hh when I saw him at the show. It was difficult to estimate the stallions' height because each stall appeared to be raised above aisle level by 2 inches or so. He was a large, bulky horse (1800 lbs actually seems low!), but definately NOT 16.3 hh.

Actually, most of the stallions there were drastically under their advertized heights. There were two "17.2 hh" horses which would stick at around the mid 16 hh height range.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Dunhorse

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:21 AM

KT,

Please do not feel that everyone is bashing your particular horse. The statements being made about halter horses are generalizations. A great many halter horses ARE excessively muscular with poor conformation of the legs. (I would say the majority after viewing online ads, journal ads, and actual halter classes.) There are of course, exceptions to this trend.

I myself own two QHs. They are both willing, sweet, sound, and the 7 year old mare is a joy to ride. My other qh is an 8 month old weanling and is an N/N decendant of Impressive, as is my APHA colt. I have nothing against the quarter horse breed as a whole, but I do take exception against those breeders and judges who place muscular development over sound conformation and the health of their animals. The whole idea of breeders intentionally selecting for upright pasterns, light bone, and posty hocks because "angles in these joints take away from the clean lines of the horse" is ludicrous. I have actually read that statement on the halter horse forum. Sigh. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:35 AM

Oh heavens, Dunhorse, I don't think you're bashing the breed (BtB???) or my sweetie!!!!

I'm just wondering what's happened.

RRB did well as a halter horse. And, as you can see he doesn't even closely resemble the ones on this thread. I think he's pretty great looking and very well balanced. But what do I know...

If the standard is what I've seen on this thread, ... well, I'm wondering why he didn't end up dead last!!!

Just a thought...
KT

Dunhorse

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:56 AM

KT,

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Good. I did not want you to feel as if I was personally attacking your horse due to his halter bloodlines.

I do not know what has changed in 4 years. As far as I know, 4 years ago massive crooked legged halter horses were still the "in thing".

In one of the Aged Stallion Halter classes, 8 out of 10(?) had severely crooked legs, terrible pastern angle, amazingly posty hocks (ick, ick the movement!), and HUGE muscles. The 7th place halter stallion in the Aged Stallion class had actual pastern angle and less posty hocks. The 10th place stallion was a hunter under saddle type horse.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

HeyYouNags

Oct. 16, 2002, 08:02 AM

Just the extremes that are deliberately bred for halter classes.

KT, your horse certainly looks normal and handsome! I'm curious, too, how he happened to do well in halter classes on a National Level. Did you show him in halter, or buy him after the fact? (As I prepare to ask questions that may sound offensive... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I wonder if competition is tougher, and horses need to look more freakish, in stallion and mare classes, since that's breeding stock? Maybe gelding classes aren't as competitive?

And another evil insinuation (not directed at the QH owners on this BB!) - I understand that anabolic steroids are used pretty liberally to pump the halter horses up.

Other oddities: my halter clients were taught that they need to incorporate backing into their yearling's workout, to muscle up the front of the thigh above the stifle. So the horse is backed in hand, either in a circle or just straight, for 10 or 15 minutes a day.

They've also told me of people who would willingly buy or breed a horse that was H/H, if it could win or live long enough to sire some successful halter horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I agree with Beezer, that QHs aren't alone in breeding halter or in-hand horses for characteristics that won't necessarily pay off under saddle. But haven't QHs really carried that to an extreme? To me, the freaks that are being bred in the QH world are like the freaks that have been created in dog breeds (think SharPei, Bulldogs, Pekinese) that have been selected for show characteristics that are seriously detrimental to the animal's long-term health.

It's not the animal's fault, it's ours.

LMH

Oct. 16, 2002, 08:37 AM

I am really wondering-and believe me I agree that the extremes regarding halter horses etc are disgusting....but is it not narrow minded to bash a breed or discipline.

I know this has been discussed before-but let's remember every breed and discipline has it's dirty little secrets....heck I think hunter/jumpers did a pretty nice job cornering the fairly recent market of killing horses for insurance money.

How about the use of things like ACTH to have perfectly quiet little hunters that march around the ring. Keeping a horse on the road 30-40 weeks out of the year so one can win the zone or whatever?

Plastic chips in boots so horse is snappier over the jumps? We can go on and on.

It is all pretty sad if you ask me.

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

stronghold

Oct. 16, 2002, 08:41 AM

At least humans can make a decision regarding their health in Muscle competitions. To take steroids or not, or whatever. And I think purposly breeding for defects, conformation or genetic is deplorable.

Beezer, thank you for clarifying, I wasn't just referring to western breeds, but all breeds when I wrote about judging the best horse for breed/sport type classes. I too am confused by this. I was trying to show the difference between what these classes are supposed to be about (ie breed standard/sport ideal) vs what actually goes on (who knows?).

And I love all horses. My first horse was an unregistered QH. She was muscular, but in a way that was useful. She could jump, run barrels, chase cows, do dressage, play polo, hunt, trail ride, pony club, babysit, and more! She exemplefied the Quarter Horse in every way, versatility!

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

stronghold

Oct. 16, 2002, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:

I know this has been discussed before-but let's remember every breed and discipline has it's dirty little secrets....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's true, but I think the main topic is breeding for halter; reputable breeders try to breed the defects out, not in. And if something undesirable shows up in a breeding program in spite of ethical practices, it is culled.

There is no shortage of inhumane treatment of horses, but at least many of those animals can be resured from that life, rehabilitated and go on to lead normal, productive lives. If they were sound stock to start with, they have a decided advantage over one that has inborn physical problems.

I have a rescue case, a mare who was beaten and over worked to the point of not only extreme sourness, but violent response every time she felt cornered. It took a lot of time to change her mind about people, but it was worth it, she went on to be a very successful show horse, and a great mom. However, if she had some deformity or otherwise, she would have ended up as meat long before I ever laid eyes on her.

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Bumpkin

Oct. 16, 2002, 03:58 PM

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Evalee Hunter

Oct. 16, 2002, 04:08 PM

AdrenoCorticoTropic Hormone.

Affects growth or activity of the adrenal cortex.

Chronic excess leads to Cushings disease, increased appetite, thick fat pads, especially around the neck & shoulders, etc.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

LMH

Oct. 16, 2002, 06:34 PM

little trick used on the circuit to ensure hunters go in the ring well behaved as they should. Can't be tested.

Would assume some unscrupulous souls would use it to sell a horse as well.

They was I understand it works is it overworks the adrenal gland-so they are on adrenaline overload all night-that way they don't have to be longed in the am-they are just flat exhausted.

Great idea huh! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

Palomino Leopard WB

Oct. 16, 2002, 07:04 PM

Unfortunately most breeds have had problems with the things that people will do to get the winning edge. Arabians, Walkers, Saddlebreeds you name it there are things done that could be considered less than humane.
I personally have problems with the hunter QH and Paint horses, actually it carries into the Pleasure classes from where it probably orininated...the low head carriage of the horses. How many horses are really going to go through life with their noses in the dirt practically.
As far as showing QH's or Paints there are tricks to get a horse in top condition, many are naturally muscled some need help. It isn't that these horses will always be that bulky naturally, most are trained in a way to give them the edge. Can't say I miss showing that type of horse it is alot of work to prepare. Many natural steroids are sold over the counter like More Muscle...when these horses stop placing so well then perhaps people will stop going to extremes to produce them. One could hope at least.

Bumpkin

Oct. 16, 2002, 08:19 PM

NinaL aka Chrissy

Oct. 17, 2002, 04:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
little trick used on the circuit to ensure hunters go in the ring well behaved as they should. Can't be tested.

Would assume some unscrupulous souls would use it to sell a horse as well.

They was I understand it works is it overworks the adrenal gland-so they are on adrenaline overload all night-that way they don't have to be longed in the am-they are just flat exhausted.

Great idea huh! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why it is scary that horse trainers are playing amateur endocrinoligists. ACTH does not have anything to do with the production of epinephrine (adrenalin).

The adrenal gland is actually composed of two distinct regions: the adrenal medulla and the adrenal cortex. The adrenal medualla is essentially an extension of the sympathetic nervous system which is responsible for the control of involuntary functions such as cardiac contractions, blood vessel dilation and sweating. The adrenal cortex is responsible for the secretion of steroid hormones.

The adrenal medulla is stimulated to secrete epinephrine and norepinephrine by acetylcholine release from preganglionic sympathetic fibers innervating the medulla. Many types of "stresses" stimulate such secretion, including exercise, hypoglycemia and trauma.

Mineralocortoids and glucocortoids are produced and secreted by the adrenal cortex. Glucocortoids (or cortisol) secretion is affected by the presence of ACTH which is produced by the anterior pituitary gland. This is an example of a classical negative feedback loop. When blood concentrations rise above a certain theshold, cortisol inhibits corticotropic-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus, which turns off ACTH secretion, which leads to a turning off of cortisol secretion from the adrenal.

If blood levels of cortisol are consistently high due to the administration of corticosteroids such as Azium (dexamethasone) then ACTH is never secreted by the hypothalamus. This one of the reasons patients given corticosteroids are slowly weaned off of the drug (ever decreasing doses).

When ACTH is administered to the horse the adrenal cortex will be stimulated to produce corticosteroids. This may lead to a feeling of euphoria (although I am not sure how you would measure euphoria in a horse!) and other common responses to high blood cortisol levels. It is a little like giving the horse a dose of Azium but the route to the cortisol "high" is a more indirect.

ACTH and Dexamethasone administration are two good examples of equine drug abuse that is based on misconceptions. The first, ACTH administration, is based on the idea that if it works on the adrenal gland it works on adrenalin production. The second, Dexamethasone abuse, seems to be based on the idea that, since vets give Dex (Azium) to horses that have allergic responses, then the drug's actions are similar to Benadryl which is also given for allergic reactions (and everybody knows Benadryl will make you sleepy). However, the two drugs could not be more different.

I found a very good website which explains a lot about the rule of the adrenal gland: Adrenal Glands (http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/adrenal/index.html).

And, yeah, this is one of my favorite soapboxes.

Nina

LMH

Oct. 17, 2002, 05:25 AM

So Nina-I got lost there....

if I understand your post ACTH does NOT overwork adrenal glands?

Then why do horses on it look like junkies that have been out partying for three days straight?

What IS it doing?

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

SillyHorse

Oct. 17, 2002, 06:59 AM

I want to know if chimaera got a reply to the e-mail she sent to the filly in the ad's owner.

SillyHorse
~ ''There are practically no cases of radioactive watermelons this year.'' - Andrei A. Buyanov, deputy chief of the Moscow City veterinarian office, commenting on produce turning up this year irradiated by the Chernobyl explosion in 1986

Tawanda

Oct. 17, 2002, 07:24 AM

These pics of halter horses are DISGUSTING! one pic looks as if it were a train with a horses head stuck on it!

I cannot understand what the appeal is in these bulldog-looking beasts.

And Findeight, why are you always comming up with some way to deffend anything that most people disagree with? I've noticed your posts are mostly just a way of arguing for the sake of argument. You present yourself as a reasonable person, but I can't help but wonder if you have a personality disorder?

Horses are not intended to look like a sausage on four toothpicks. I realize I'm opinionated as hell, but damnit! These horses are HURTING! They're dying to be thinner! They need help! Why isn't Animal protection doing anything? ARGHHH!!!!

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 17, 2002, 07:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tawanda:

And Findeight, why are you always comming up with some way to deffend anything that most people disagree with? I've noticed your posts are mostly just a way of arguing for the sake of argument. You present yourself as a reasonable person, but I can't help but wonder if you have a personality disorder?

Why isn't Animal protection doing anything? ARGHHH!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tawanda, you are new here, but your post is WAY out of line.

Check the rules.

And, "animal protection" isn't doing anything because breeding inferior quality animals isn't against the law. They are pretty busy trying to keep people from...oh, you know...not feeding them, beating them, etc...

Priorities you know.

Tawanda

Oct. 17, 2002, 08:05 AM

...I'm just frustrated at findeight for her defending these people who breed horses for a life of pain.

I've lurked more than posted, and see a pattern in findeight's posts...he/she seems to thrive on argument. It is annoying and confusing. The original poster of this thread was correct in her assesment of this halter industry and supported her argument well. Then findeight comes in and tries to make the people who agree with the original poster look as if they are attacking without proof. This is confusing because the national magazine put out by AQHA shows page after page of halter horses looking just as they do in the pics people have posted on this thread.

And as to the person's response about what Animal protection does or doesn't do, you are mistaken. In the late 80's, the walking horse industry was cited by an animal protection organization in regards to how their feet were grown in a harmful way. So answer me this: why can feet be of concern, but body weight and unnatural life-span cannot?

You may not like my way of assessing a situation, but I call a spade a spade!

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 17, 2002, 08:18 AM

And one of the premier rules here is "issues not individuals". Drop the case against Findeight. You may not agree with her opinion, but it's her opinion...nonetheless. She shouldn't be attacked or accused of having a "personality disorder" for giving it.

As for your opinion on "animal protection". There are many, many different levels of "animal protection". I know not of the case you mentioned, but to my mind physically changing a horse's appearance through surgery or otherwise is MUCH easier to prosecute. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. But chopping off a horse's tail, soreing a horse, doing something physically to create pain is a different ball of wax than trying to build a case against poor breeding selection, feeding to enhance physical attributes etc. Those are hard things to prove.

As I mentioned on the dog thread on Off Course - my mom works for the SPCA as an inspector. She can't make abuse cases stick. Starved animals, beaten animals, things that would make you and I sick are left unpunished. How the heck do you expect her to legally punish someone for "breeding a horse with too little feet"?? There are people all over the planet breeding indiscriminately, to make it an offence (which is the only way the SPCA can get involved)...well, that's a slippery slope.

I am not defending these people. I think it's wrong. But making breeding certain animals against the law (just like breeding certain types of dogs) is impractical and ineffective.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 17, 2002, 08:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tawanda:
In the late 80's, the walking horse industry was cited by an animal protection organization in regards to how their feet were grown in a harmful way. So answer me this: why can feet be of concern, but body weight and unnatural life-span cannot?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There has never been any successful prosecution that I am aware of concerning the shoeing of Tennessee Walking Horses. The Horse Protection Act does set some standards for heel height relative to toe length, to weight and height of pads, and weight of chains that can be used at shows. Also, "pressure shoeing," incorporation of metal fragments under the shoe, or other blatantly painful shoeing techniques are violations of the Horse Protection Act, when federal or show-designated inspectors can find them.

I certainly don't agree with the shoeing of TWHs, or with any form of soring, but I'm fairly certain there hasn't been prosecution outside of the Horse Protection Act.

And I agree with goodfourshoes in her observations about the impossibility of legislation against crappy breeding. There are a number of things some of us would like to see made illegal in the animal world, which will never happen.

stronghold

Oct. 17, 2002, 08:40 AM

Tawanda:
The point of the BBs is education and debate. If someone wants to play devil's advocate in order to spark more discussion, great! We should be glad that they are prompting us to think deeply about issues, and be creative about solutions.

It is not the place of any of us (except forum moderators) to criticize a fellow poster. It is not considered good BB etiquette. I'm with goodyfourshoes and I suggest you read the rules thoroughly, and if you have any questions, check with the BB administration.

I'm glad you've chosen to participate after lurking for a while, BBs are fun! But it is up to all of us to keep our personal comments in check about eachother, and remark only on the topic at hand.

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Policy of Truth

Oct. 17, 2002, 10:48 AM

I thought recently there was a case regarding TWH's and the soaring done on them within animal protection.

Didn't the TWH people place an ad denouncing the ruling in one of our sport's magazine's? Maybe I'm recalling information wrong.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 17, 2002, 11:50 AM

The American Horse Protection Assoc. filed a suit that was settled within the last 6 to 12 months, but I can't remember the details of it. I *think* they were challenging the way the USDA inspects for violations (i.e., the fact that inspection authority is turned over to the show organizations.) The outcome of the suit was primarily to re-affirm that USDA does have the authority to enforce the Horse Protection Act, but didn't stop USDA from continuing with its program of allowing the shows to appoint Designated Qualified Persons (DQPs) to conduct the inspections on USDA's behalf.

Totally confusing, right? Maybe someone from AHPA will clarify.

Pacificsolo, you may also have seen some local legislation in VA that was supported by various humane organizations in the state. VA passed a law earlier this year that makes soring a violation of VA state animal cruelty laws, and also makes it possible for animal control officers to check for violations at VA shows. That state law was certainly opposed by the TWH industry.

By TWH industry, I mean powers-that-be at the top of the breed organization, not the vast majority of TWH owners who wouldn't dream of soring their horses.

MeanderCreek

Oct. 17, 2002, 12:25 PM

I think what everyone is missing is that the QH halter world has a different set of priorities. As long as what they do is not BLATANT abuse - and I have not ever personally witnessed blatant abuse at a QH show and I've been to a few - why is it necessary to sit around screaming about it?

Most halter bred horses are never asked to perform in any athletic capacity, so who cares if they're not built to withstand the rigors of dressage, jumping, or whatever else YOU think they should be able to do. They're bred to stand around and look like halter horses - which some people find beautiful. We allow beautiful but otherwise useless humans to procreate, so why should we not allow people to breed horses that they consider beautiful but are generally accepted as otherwise useless?

Go out to the barn, enjoy the horses you have selected for the attributes that are important to you and leave everybody else the hell alone!!!

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Dunhorse

Oct. 17, 2002, 02:32 PM

Meandercreek,

I am sorry but I cannot agree with you about the halter horses. The QH world halter world may have different priorities, but that does not automatically make the priorities which they do have right. Yes, they chose to breed horses which they do not ride. That is not the issue. The issue which I personally have against the halter horses is the deliberate breeding for traits which adversely effect the horses well being. Why not breed for horses which can look attractive standing in the ring, while at the same time breeding for functional angles in the horses' legs? Why do they need to create a "cleaner line" to the leg by deliberately reducing the angles of the joints and reducing foot size?

Halter horse ads often rave about their horses' posty hocks, which "create a cleaner look to the hind leg". These same posty hocks and corresponding upright femurs often result in a horse affected by upward fixation of the patella, a condition in which certain ligaments in the joint lock the leg in the extended position while the animal is walking. This results in a horse with one hind leg trapped in an extended position behind the body; unable to bear weight. The horse must be physically backed and often the joint must be pressed from the side to allow the animal's leg to return to a supportive position.

Many of the halter horse's in the stallion ally had obvious signs of side bone, with the ossified lateral cartilages protruding obviously at the coronary band. A large percentage of them also had signs of ringbone, both low and high. Osselets were also common. All signs of wear and tear on the legs due to upright joints, tiny feet, and massive body weight.

I also have a major issue with the breeding for HYPP, and the utilization of HYPP positive horses for breeding. I cannot tell you how many ads I have seen which advertise a horse as nonsymptomatic and an obvious attempt to imply that said horse will never have symptoms or pass them on. There is no guarentee that a "nonsymptomatic" horse will never have an attack. All hypp positive horses are fully capable of having an attack.

Unfortunately, I did personally witness several cases of what I would consider to be abuse at Congress this weekend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

There was the buckskin horse in the warm up area with its lowerjaw rubbed raw by the bosal his rider was yanking on. (A bosal is a braided hackamore type device). The horse's face was torn up from under the chin to the jowels and blood was dripping from its chin. This same horse also had bloody marks on his sides from his riders spurs. My friends and I were shocked.

My friends and I witnessed several other horses with bloody marks/sores on their sides caused by their riders spurring. Other horses had white marks which were obviously caused by former sores due to spurring.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Paloma

Oct. 17, 2002, 05:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SillyHorse:
I want to know if chimaera got a reply to the e-mail she sent to the filly in the ad's owner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did.

He assures me that the filly is not over at the knee. His friend took and posted the photo and he only saw it after they'd been posted on the ad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

>> If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<

Beezer

Oct. 17, 2002, 05:18 PM

I'm thinking that Chimaera either really likes that post of hers or else Infopoop is having an attack of the hiccups. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the "Huh. I thought I'd fixed that" phase of baby green hunter ownership.

stronghold

Oct. 17, 2002, 05:33 PM

I was writing a post on another thread, when my email messenger went nuts, and crashed my window! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Oh well, I hadn't typed very much. Computers do strange things...

PS, Beezer, don't you mean Infopop? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

MeanderCreek

Oct. 17, 2002, 05:43 PM

Dunhorse - the QH halter ring isn't the only place posty hocks are considered desirable - take a look in the HB ring.

Some also select for a hock more straight than I would consider ideal to acheive that swinging from the hip, tight hocked movement that is rewarded in every subjective discipline I can think of except dressage.

As for the horses on stallion alley showing singns of wear and tear - of course they do. They're breeding stallions - as in most of them have served their time as show horses and most do have LOTS of miles under their belts.

I never have nor will condone the breeding of HYPP N/H or H/H horses.

A certain olympic medalist once left bloody spur marks on one of my event mares - that doesn't make her abusive. The mare was laying on her leg something fierce and by the time I got back on, the mare was off the leg and jumping straight. It was a necessary schooling technique that drastically improved the mares performance and saftey that day. I'm sure there are a few bunny petters out there that would have considered it abusive, but I'll take a spur mark over a horse getting in trouble over a solid x ctry fence because she was landing crooked any day.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Policy of Truth

Oct. 17, 2002, 07:12 PM

the KKK thinks it is ideal to treat black people as second-class citizens /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Does this make their ideal OK?

WHY are you so defensive about what many of us think about AQHA halter horse ideals? Do you breed for them?

As for your comment regarding your mare's bloody side, I am disgusted by your cavalier attitude. Did you consider NOT showing that day? Maybe your mare was trying to say something. I don't understand how you can condone such treatment.

Then again, I guess you have little respect for us "bunny petters" /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Paloma

Oct. 17, 2002, 07:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
I'm thinking that Chimaera either _really likes_ that post of hers or else Infopoop is having an attack of the hiccups. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_Proud member of the "Huh. I thought I'd fixed that" phase of baby green hunter ownership._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No Sh**! I posted once, and the reply never appeared..So I posted once more...it never appeared, so I gave up. I've just come back to try again, and find my reply is listed SEVEN times! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif What happened to the little "Error: you have already posted a reply identical to this one..." thingy? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
I am going back and deleting the redundant 6 replies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif like I've nothing better to do... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
>> If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<

Medievalist

Oct. 17, 2002, 07:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by chimaera:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SillyHorse:
I want to know if chimaera got a reply to the e-mail she sent to the filly in the ad's owner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did.

He assures me that the filly is not over at the knee. His friend took and posted the photo and he only saw it after they'd been posted on the ad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_>> If Noah had been _Truly_ Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I bet /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If you believe that, I have some time-shares in FL you can take a look at /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Check out my barn's site:
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Comment est-ce qu'on dit <quiche> en anglais? Mapi LaJoux

Paloma

Oct. 17, 2002, 08:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Yeah, I bet If you believe that, I have some time-shares in FL you can take a look at <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was not offering an "opinion" regarding the reply. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, maybe the winking smilie sorta gave it away...just a bit.

I figured we could draw our own *ahem*...OBVIOUS...conclusions regarding whether or not the filly is over at the knee. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

>> If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <<

Medievalist

Oct. 17, 2002, 09:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by chimaera:
I was not offering an "opinion" regarding the reply. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, maybe the winking smilie sorta gave it away...just a bit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't get me wrong-I meant a collective general sort of you, not you as in you=chimaera. Does that make sense?

The guy probably read your e-mail and was like "Doh, I can't believe someone actually noticed that." I had been waiting in suspense for his reply to your mail all day...and I was not disappointed /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Check out my barn's site:
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)
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Comment est-ce qu'on dit <quiche> en anglais? Mapi LaJoux

stronghold

Oct. 17, 2002, 09:59 PM

I agree with you pacificsolo, that the horse must have been trying to communicate something. Horses are rarely disobediant just for the sake of being so. Resistance is the only way a horse has of letting the rider know something is wrong. It can be as simple as the horse saying "I am not as flexible to the left" to something as severe as "my back hurts because my saddle is pinching my spine every time I move." It is up to the rider (the reasoning one in the equation, hopefully) to figure out what is up.

I have a horse that is a very difficult ride, she seems to many people as willfully disobediant. But she had been beaten in her past, and these resistant periods were a result of her feeling confusion and mental pressure. As her owner, I wanted to find out what the problem was, and find a way to work it out.

Meandercreek: have you ever watched any of those daytime talk shows like Maury or Montel? They bring on these poor fat kids, 3 year olds that weigh 100lbs or more, and ask the parents how this happened, and what they think the consequences are. Almost invariably, the parent is feeling guilty about something else, and is trying to make it up to the kid with food. The parent is usually aware of the hazzards of obesity, yet continues to do it. It is just another form of abuse/neglect when it comes down to it. It's not an exact parallel, but I think there are enough similaraties to be valid.

So yes, I think the over feeding of halter horses IS abuse. And I also think that breeding for "fashionable" conformation IS abuse. There are many ways to get a "clean" line to a hind leg. The best way is to breed for traits that have shown longevity, feed the horse a balanced diet, and allow for plenty of exercise, either free or guided.

I think horses in general are too valuable NOT to be treated this way, no matter what their job. Right from the backyard lawn ornament up to the high performance athelete, they deserve to be treated as living, feeling creatures. If we can't do what is best for the horse, then we don't deserve the title of "horseperson".

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Daydream Believer

Oct. 18, 2002, 04:58 AM

Interesting thread. That one horse looks like a large pig ready for slaughter. No joke.

I have stabled in a QH barn where they stood a HYPP positive stallion at stud. He probably sired some 15 foals total. He would fall to the ground twitching and shaking almost once a week. I heard that they did eventually geld him when he nearly died. She now feeds him lime (yes the kind you put on the stall floor) to offset the potassium or something like that. She tried the prescription drugs but couldn't afford them (about $300/month) so she went to the lime. I tried to talk sense into her several times but gave it up as a lost cause. I didn't stay at that barn long as I couldn't stomach the training methods (single twisted wire bits, draw reins, spurs, tying heads down, you name it) they used on their young horses. These were mainline AQHA people and went to Congress every year.

MeanderCreek's comment about spur marks. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I can't believe that anyone could condone physically wounding a horse like that for the sake of a competition or training. I too have seen this at events and will report anyone who rips bloody stripes on a horse's side with spurs. It's poor riding and abusive, and if the horse "needs" to be ridden that way to get around XC or stadium, than they need to scratch, go home, and train the horse properly.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

MeanderCreek

Oct. 18, 2002, 05:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:

WHY are you so defensive about what many of us think about AQHA halter horse ideals? Do you breed for them?

As for your comment regarding your mare's bloody side, I am disgusted by your cavalier attitude. Did you consider NOT showing that day? Maybe your mare was trying to say something. I don't understand how you can condone such treatment.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, never bred a halter horse, never owned a halter horse, never shown a halter horse and have no plans to do so. However, I find it childish, counterproductive and a waste of time to sit around criticizing people because I disagree with them. If that's indicative of a personality disorder, well maybe findeight and I can get a group discount on therapy.

As for my mare - yes she was trying to say something - that she was not going to jump straight into the water, she was going to jump to the right where the water had receded and it was dryer. Considering she was pretty well schooled and experienced jumping into water it was an issue that needed adressing and since it was a clinic situation, the clinician got on her and adressed it. What if there had been a revetted bank on the right and she had landed half on it? I'll tell you what if - she could have been another dead event horse. I love the mare, and no I didn't enjoy seeing spur marks on her side, but it was sure better than seeing her break a leg could have been.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

MeanderCreek

Oct. 18, 2002, 05:51 AM

and no, I don't watch Maury or Montel, or any other daytime TV. I'm usually a little too busy in the barn to waste time like that. I take a little time while they're eating in the morning and check my computer, but other than that I don't spend very much time in the house and have no patience for talk shows anyway /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

NinaL aka Chrissy

Oct. 18, 2002, 06:25 AM

I have not ignored your question. I'm just trying to formulate some sort of meaningful and coherent response to it.

Nina notverycoherentonaFriday

creseida

Oct. 18, 2002, 06:46 AM

but if a "training method" draws blood, then it is not effective training; it is abuse. No ifs ands or buts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Well, ok, one butt; the one doing the abusing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

Policy of Truth

Oct. 18, 2002, 06:59 AM

...I stick with my instinct that the mare was trying to tell you something...beyond your assessment, meansercreek.

I agree with the poster who said the training methods need to be re-evaluated. And maybe a day or two off from showing??

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who was disgusted by spurring a horse to the point of drawing blood. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sophie 71

Oct. 18, 2002, 07:20 AM

So the only reason your mare was jumping crooked was because the side of the water jump... Looked SAFER to her? And your response was to physically force her to land where she didn't feel comfortable.

I would be surprised if this mare was willing to do anything she felt uncomfortable with in the future, if that is how she is trained to deal with "iffy" situations.

findeight

Oct. 18, 2002, 08:04 AM

Devil's Advocate?

MOI????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Could be...

But I did show QH for years and mine were not treated anything like these worst examples even though a couple had done the Halter classes as youngsters and my friends out in California don't treat theirs that way either.

Big bucks tend to corrupt all levels of our sport.

Absolutly no excuse for the HYPP thing continuing other then too much money is involved. Too bad more breeders don't follow the lead of Impressive's owner's, who pulled him from service immediately. BTW he was a nice horse, big, but not a tank at all.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

MeanderCreek

Oct. 18, 2002, 08:04 AM

Considering that the mare was jumping in perfectly straight the other way where the water had not receded the clinician and I both felt that it was a willfull mare issue and nothing more.

Initially, we tried a placement pole and it was effective up to a point, then she landed, stepped sideways over it and continued on. Then, we tried a person standing on the landing and that was effective to a point, but when the person moved past the comfort zone she ducked right and that was no longer effective. So, the clinician got on her since I was riding like a "weenie" hooked a spur in her and viola the mare was jumping in straight after about three times through. I got back on - without spurs - the mare was wonderful and it took about three days for the spur marks to heal and the mare hasn't looked at water sideways since.

I thought about it on the way home, and I really could not think of another way to have solved the problem. If anyone has any other ideas on how that could have been fixed I'd love to hear them. I still believe it was fair to aske her to jump in straight - especially considering she was perfectly comfortable the other way. The direction where the water had receded was the only problem we were having and placement rails and a person on the ground are the only things I've ever heard of being used to straighten on landing.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

LMH

Oct. 18, 2002, 08:09 AM

Thanks-I was starting to pout over here....what I am asking I guess is what exactly does the ACTH do then when it is given in the manner I described....not for medicinal purposes.

Shoulda taken those science courses huh?

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

Tucked_Away

Oct. 18, 2002, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Too bad more breeders don't follow the lead of Impressive's owner's, who pulled him from service immediately. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did they really? Immense kudos, then. It's only ethical, but too often doing the ethical thing takes some serious guts.

Policy of Truth

Oct. 18, 2002, 10:04 AM

So if Impressive was pulled from the breeding shed, how did so many "Impressive bred" foals come into being? I'm not doubting you, but this makes me wonder about the higher probability of inbreeding than before.

Meandercreek, I can appreciate you thinking so hard on the question of what could have been done differently. I think what I would have done is to pull her that day and schooled over various water situations at home. It may well have been a "mare" issue, but someone pointed out that her perception of safety may have been the issue.

I still disagree with the use of spurs to the point of drawing blood. You said she moved off your leg after the trainer/clinician had spured her...well, wouldn't you, if you were bleeding? Her natural tendancy would have been to move at that point. But it was not what I would call a solution....it was a quick fix.

BTW, I did look at your website, and I can see you do not breed for the bulky AQHA's. I do have a question: what is a "sneaky" mover? How does that translate as far as class suitability? Is that for WP?

stronghold

Oct. 18, 2002, 10:05 AM

As I am not privy to the ins and outs of QH breeding, but I thought that the problem was not with Impressive himself, but cropped up when people started linebreeding too much.

But, it would make more sense if Impressive was H/N due to a random mutation, and only due to the extensive backcrossing/linebreeding/inbreeding that it got a foothold in the population. If Impressive and his descendants had only been out crossed to unrelated lines, we may never have seen it. Until one day two distantly related horses who just happen to have that recessive gene and the offspring ends up H/H. HYPP may never have been tracked as having a genetic foundation.

Just a thought...

BTW, Meandercreek. I happen to be a busy person too, I don't sit around watching daytime TV. If it happens to be on while one is sitting in a waiting room and one sees it, then uses it as an example to prove a point, so be it. And you know what? So what if someone does watch that stuff, who cares?
If you feel the need to defend your point of view whild belittling others, you must feel ddp down that your point has some flaws...

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Daydream Believer

Oct. 18, 2002, 10:48 AM

Stronghold,

I'm not sure if you realize it but HYPP is a dominant gene not a recessive. Impressive was a positive/positive and everything he sired carried one of his positives. HYPP works under the same rules as gray color. 50% chance of passing it on if one parent is heterozygous gray and 100% if homozygous. If both parents are positive/negative then the odds of an HYPP positive/negative are still 50%, 25% for a pos/pos, and 25% for a neg/neg. It is because it is a dominant gene that it has spread so quickly and why so many horses are affected. One copy of the gene is all it takes for a horse to be affected or even die from it. I'm told the pos/pos horses don't usually live very long and generally die from cardiac or respiratory failure while having an attack.

The sad truth is that it would take only one generation to wipe out HYPP. Unfortunately, the disorder has been passed on to Paints and Appies now too due to outcrossing to QH's. I doubt it will ever be eradicated because a lot of the QH people that own these horses have got too big of an investment in their horses to admit that it's a problem. My friend's comments about her stallion was that "it's no big deal" until he nearly died on her. She did change her tune but many people are making way too much money to stop breeding these horses.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

hitchinmygetalong

Oct. 18, 2002, 11:26 AM

Been lurking around with this thread, and I have finally gotten the guts to tell you my simplistic view of this mess.

IT'S THE JUDGES, PEOPLE!

If they STOP pinning these freaks, people would stop breeding and developing them.

Get some ethical, horse-savvy judges and you won't see a pig in the ring after one year. I guarantee it.

Yes, yes, yes. I KNOW it's not that easy, I know there's more to it than that. But I still think the judging is the foundation of the whole problem.

(Insert sound of me running for cover over to Off-Course, where I came from...)

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

TrakHack

Oct. 18, 2002, 11:53 AM

The pedigree on that filly looks like it contains a lot of line breeding/inbreeding. Does anyone who's familiar with the horses shown in it know how close they are?

We have a Conclusive bred gelding in our barn. He's big. He's got a smaller head. He's heavily muscled. He's also sound, and is ridden every day. We just had a KWPN mare put down as a result of an awful case of founder. She was fat, never got out, never got ridden. I think it's the owner as much as the horse.

My horse is an 1100lb cow-hocked, pencil-necked, size 0 hooved, 8.5" of bone, product of APHA breeding. She probably wouldn't stand up to the demands of high-level riding, but I doubt I'll ever make it past 2nd level anyway. Given the choice, she will carry her head low; not peanut-roller low, but more like free walk low. She is sound and healthy, and is a great horse for me.

This concludes the random thoughts of Sister...

Lisamarie8

Oct. 18, 2002, 12:41 PM

Real quick...the stallion that someone mentioned earlier that dropped dead from a heart attack was Kid Clu. I remember seeing a picture of him in the quarter horse journal YEARS ago and almost barfing. Here's a reason why... (http://www.qhd.com/photos/247sa.jpg) I was always amazed that the horse could walk more or less put forth the effort he was in this picture...

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Policy of Truth

Oct. 18, 2002, 12:52 PM

Looks like a hog running for his dear life!!! No wonder he died so soon!

Lisamarie8

Oct. 18, 2002, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Looks like a hog running for his dear life!!! No wonder he died so soon!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me about it. I honestly had nightmares about that picture...Kid Clu storming around the corner knocking over transport busses of senior citizens and leaving human rubble in his wake.

I, personally, think it's an abomination. Scary at the absolute least, irresponsible at the absolute most.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Hephaistion

Oct. 18, 2002, 01:40 PM

wow. that is horrible. Reminds of when I saw someone walking their overweight overly-long daschund - its was sick to look at /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I've read this thread, and I've got to say that my gut reaction is that is wrong, terribly wrong. Horses are not meant to look like that /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite because I know that other animal breeders such as those working with beef cows, dairy cows, pigs etc, breed for genetic traits that are not conducive to the lives of the animals themselves but rather for consumer purposes - and yet I buy those products, but for some reason it just seems worse when its done purely for cosmetic reasons just to win a ribbon.

MeanderCreek

Oct. 18, 2002, 03:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:

BTW, I did look at your website, and I can see you do not breed for the bulky AQHA's. I do have a question: what is a "sneaky" mover? How does that translate as far as class suitability? Is that for WP?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A sneaky mover is a term that is used to describe a WP pleasure horse that is extremely flat kneed, swings its whole hind end from the hip so there is as little articulation of the hock as possibe and hits the ground very lightly. Basically, an extremely short strided, but otherwise beautiful mover - if that makes any sense whatsoever.

The funny thing about that particular filly is that I've had several full siblings to her and she is the complete opposite of all the rest. She's absolutely a natural WP horse, where the other three were MUCH too long strided. One is a lovley pony that the child has to whoa down all the lines, one is a little novice event horse, and the other is a nice local hunter. The one I still have would be doing triple adds at least - not that I think she'd be even slightly inclined to jump a fence she could go around in the first place anyway.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Lisamarie8

Oct. 18, 2002, 05:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:
wow. that is horrible. Reminds of when I saw someone walking their overweight overly-long daschund - its was sick to look at /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jair, that is a PERFECT analogy. In my illustrious /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif career as a pet sitter/Vet tech(assistant) I had to give insulin shots to TWO daschund's like that. They were so fat there was a crease going down their back and I was constantly amazed that their little legs could withstand the strain...it's down right creepy.

...as are some Halter horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Policy of Truth

Oct. 18, 2002, 07:13 PM

....After I posted my "sneaky mover" question, I got to thinking that it most likely was a WP term...and that makes since after watching some WP classes. I never thought of it in terms of "sneaky", but that term fits perfectly what the eye sees while watching a fancy WP horse.

Something else I've only seen in AQHA barns (I used to do Arabians and never saw it and haven't seen it in any H/J barns) is the horse being tied to the stall...relatively short. Why is this done? Also, why do some AQHA people tie their young horse's heads to the horn when they misbehave? Again, I've never seen this done in any other breed barn...not to say it isn't.

MeanderCreek

Oct. 18, 2002, 08:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:

is the horse being tied to the stall...relatively short. Why is this done? Also, why do some AQHA people tie their young horse's heads to the horn when they misbehave? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people tie a horse's face around (reins to horn, girth, or dees pretty tightly) to try to make it give to the bridle. I personally think its just an excuse to go to lunch when one is being difficult.

I sometimes loop the reins around the horn just enough to keep the horses head up enough to keep it from rolling or getting in trouble if I have to get off and go do something else. For example, if the vet pulls in I'll loop the reins up and leave the horse in the ring while I go hold horses for the vet. Or, if I think one is inclined to be fresh I'll loop the reins up and let them buck and fart while I return a call or two. Keep in mind this is only at my private barn - never anywhere anyone else is riding.

As for tying up in the stalls, when I get off one I untack, throw a cooler on and tie the horse in the stall while I ride the next one, then come back and groom up the one standing and put him away properly and so on all down the isle. The ties are fairly short so that the horse doesn't get in trouble.

Some people believe that standing tied teaches the patience and do it for that reason. Others that "hang 'em" believe that if the horses head it tied up high, he'll want to come out and put it down. I think its a figment of their imagination.

One thing I find VERY usefull is tying them in the corner of the arena. Since I ride by myself most all the time, its sometimes hard to get them used to working around other horses. So, I tie one in the corner and ride around and it gets used to another horse coming and going and leaving the arena - which is usually the worst part.

My favorite trick from the QH world is turning a young horse loose in the arena while riding another. I know it sounds dangerous, but if I can keep my horse's attention on me and doing his job while a rambunctious baby plays it up - you can bet I can keep that horse's attention in the show ring. Again, this is at a private barn - never something to do while beginner group lessons are going on - but then again, sometimes beginner group lessons are just like having a bunch of horses loose in the arena while you ride!!

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

stronghold

Oct. 18, 2002, 09:45 PM

Daydream Believer: thanks for the info, I knew I was confused. I must have been thinking about the CID in Arabians as the recessive trait.

lisamarie8: Not only were you right on about which horse I was referring to, but that is the exact photo that I had in my head! Yikes! I would get out of the way too if that 1800lb sausage came galloping at me. I also remember being surprised that he would be capable of such movement, and I bet his feet and legs really hurt! Poor thing. I hate to say it, but he is better off at the Rainbow Bridge.

*****If you can't be a good example,
at least be a horrible warning*****

Daydream Believer

Oct. 19, 2002, 12:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:

My favorite trick from the QH world is turning a young horse loose in the arena while riding another. I know it sounds dangerous, but if I can keep my horse's attention on me and doing his job while a rambunctious baby plays it up - you can bet I can keep that horse's attention in the show ring.

http://www.meandercreekstable.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (http://www.meandercreekstable.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

What a good idea! I too have my own private place and have trouble finding someone to ride with. It can be tough getting a horse prepared for the bustle and confusion of a warm up ring when you always ride by yourself. I have two weanlings I may turn out in my arena when I ride. They ought to get out of the big horses way (they know these horses as they live out with them) and may cut up and play a little which will help me school the horse I'm riding while there are distractions.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence