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mcmIV
Jan. 3, 2003, 07:16 AM
Bensmom, this means you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fairweather and I were recently looking at Java Feet and she mentioned how much she enjoys looking at all feet!

Well, my newest obsession with feet has led me to post this request. I would like to know what a GOOD shod/unshod foot looks like, truly.

We all know there are plenty of healthy looking feet out there that aren't actually well shod. It's misleading.

I want to keep my eye on Java's new feet so I can point my farrier in the direction I want each shoeing in order to avoid getting into the mess I find myself in today!

We can critique feet too! In fact, if you are afraid of critiques don't post em, cause you know these people won't be able to help themselves.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Feb. 21, 2003 at 02:46 PM.]

mcmIV
Jan. 3, 2003, 07:16 AM
Bensmom, this means you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fairweather and I were recently looking at Java Feet and she mentioned how much she enjoys looking at all feet!

Well, my newest obsession with feet has led me to post this request. I would like to know what a GOOD shod/unshod foot looks like, truly.

We all know there are plenty of healthy looking feet out there that aren't actually well shod. It's misleading.

I want to keep my eye on Java's new feet so I can point my farrier in the direction I want each shoeing in order to avoid getting into the mess I find myself in today!

We can critique feet too! In fact, if you are afraid of critiques don't post em, cause you know these people won't be able to help themselves.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Feb. 21, 2003 at 02:46 PM.]

Bensmom
Jan. 3, 2003, 09:08 AM
Oh Goody!

Ben was reset yesterday, and so now would be a good time to take some pics of his feet. Both fronts are now at 54 degrees -- odd to have the club and non-clubby one matching! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I need to scan some of the pics from the last computer balancing. But, I'd have to stay home for more than a few hours to sleep to do that, so it hasn't happened.

Unfortunately my mom made off with the digital camera (fooey, doesn't she understand that since I've had it more than a year, it should now be mine?!!) so I'll have to borrow one, or do the real photos and scan them route. I'll work on it this weekend and post some for your perusal.

The little monster is getting reset this afternoon, and since racing on a poor shoeing/trimming job is the cause of both the ugly old bow and his arthritis in the other ankle, it might be interesting to see what we are doing with his feet without the computer's input (I haven't been able to afford to do both boys feet with x-rays)

I'll snap some pics today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby

slb
Jan. 3, 2003, 09:53 AM
Oooo...what a good post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I love looking at feet! We have to trim soon, will get some good pics of barefeet when we do.

Can't wait to see all the feet....come on guys....lets see what ya got!

creseida
Jan. 3, 2003, 09:57 AM
I hope this thread is around in a week or so...it will take that long for the 1'+ deep mud to dissipate so that I can *find* my horse's feet again, at least long enough to take a picture. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

mcmIV
Jan. 3, 2003, 11:10 AM
Don't worry... I will bump it!

I am gonna try to clean his feet up and take pics of the bottom of them too this weekend.... maybe that will have some interesting results.

Saddith
Jan. 3, 2003, 12:41 PM
Oh goodie - I too am curious about feet. I am going to take some before and after photos - my new horsie is getting shod Monday morning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I will try to post some then!

FairWeather
Jan. 3, 2003, 01:02 PM
great idea!
I have BAD pics of feet--of my mare before we started trying to get them back to normal. Silly me thought they WERE normal until I learned better.

I'll get pics of my boys' feet--all three different, but I think all healthy and decent. Marks feet are a little screwy, but then again, he's a little screwy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ditto on the mud.

Bensmom
Jan. 3, 2003, 07:12 PM
Martha, I haven't got pics yet, but I do have to tell you that your request made my farrier's day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He was very impressed that his work was going to go out for display on the 'net.

I didn't tell him that y'all were gonna critique it, however. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

He is pretty wonderful. The little monster got new shoes made tonight. He wears St. Croix eventers that Larry takes bar steel and welds onto them to make eventer bar shoes, and then, since he needed to be raised a bit, and we'd done all we could by trimming, he set the bar on the outside of the shoe, rather than flush with it, and viola, wedge bar shoes that are actually St. Croix eventers. He charged me so little for this that it ought to be illegal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It was very cool. Then he took the set he took off of Buzzy and in about five minutes, I had a pair of new halter hangers made out of Buzz's first pair of worn out shoes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My farrier rocks!!

Libby (who must remember to take pictures!!)

MsRidiculous
Jan. 3, 2003, 07:33 PM
Here's a pic of Lexi's feet, taken the day we got her. She was 3 years old and had lived outside all her life.. most recently in a ROCK QUARRY for 7 months until we bought her.

I'll take new pics of her feet and all the rest of ems feet tomorrow. Jez's feet are very *ahem* interesting.. she has 4 totally different feet. My farrier has only recently started shoeing her, so he's taking it slow trying to correct everything.

-Amanda

Look Up, Keep Kicking
www.risingstarfarm.net (http://www.risingstarfarm.net)

slb
Jan. 3, 2003, 07:55 PM
Hey guys...I know its hard to do alone, but if possible, can you all include solar views too? This tells so much more than side views....but they're important too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FairWeather
Jan. 4, 2003, 08:16 AM
Everything that is wrong with a foot.

Before I knew what I was looking at, My mares feet looked like this. She was shod (BADLY!) the entire time I owned her I thought she had problems with her hocks--I now know it was most likely her feet.
I look back and cant believe my ignorance about feet until the last few years.

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

FairWeather
Jan. 4, 2003, 08:17 AM
solar.

Now, I know whats wrong with these feet--lets get the neophyte feet folks to pick these apart!

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

creseida
Jan. 4, 2003, 12:42 PM
Fairweather, I see first, underrun heels (ok, what heels http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) loooong toes, a touch of thrush (in this mud, who DOESN'T have thrush??? ) and what appears to be a seedy toe. The graphics card is going on my computer, so the photos aren't that clear, so I've probably missed a thing or two. Oh, and the hoof angle is different than the pastern angle. Good luck with your new farrier

FairWeather
Jan. 4, 2003, 01:02 PM
guess I should clarify--
These are old pics of my mare--she passed away in August http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

creseida
Jan. 4, 2003, 01:05 PM
Ok, here's Cressy's right front. I apologise for the "wet look", but I couldn't get it clean enough to see otherwise.

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

creseida
Jan. 4, 2003, 01:06 PM
OOPS! Sorry Fairweather! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Cressy "solar" view

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 4, 2003, 02:12 PM
Hehe, I might get flamed for this but...The only thing I see wrong with Cresida's horse's feet is that she has iron plates nailed to them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
She has what appears to be good angles and her heels seem nice, she appears to be a good candidate for BAREFOOT. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I dont want to offend anyone, jmho. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HossShoer
Jan. 4, 2003, 02:28 PM
This is one of my cross bred hunt horses. I make my own shoes for these bigger feet. It's inch wide by 1/2 inch thick concave bar stock.I feel that the calks help my hoses to stay on their feet alot better then the regular drive in or screw in corks.There is a toe clip on this back foot, cause I just like the way the foot tends to stay underneath instead of flaring off to the outside and being pinched by side clips. I always joke that if ya want to lose a barn/client just start using toe clips on the back feet.They figure I really have lost it.

creseida
Jan. 4, 2003, 02:59 PM
MissCapitalSplash, why would you think you'd be offensive by telling someone their horse has GOOD feet? I'm not offended at all, and Cressy would be barefoot in winter except for two reasons...

The primary reason is (in the attached photo) her left hind is deformed. If you look carefully, the hoof wall narrows (and flares) by 1/4 inch for the entire outside quarter. The wall is thin, and will develop a crack where the "dent" is. With shoes, it poses no problem and does not crack.

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~

HossShoer
Jan. 4, 2003, 03:11 PM
This is a TB that came to me with his foot waaaayyyy out in front. Tons of toe and nothing underneath the wall untill half way up his foot.After cutting away all the loose wall I stuck dental impression material on the sole to give him some support and nailed on a shoe so he could walk. After it grew out he was fine and went on to be a A circut hunter.
I have a few really neat pictures with the wall mostly gone and blood all over the place, but I have to get them scanned in.

HossShoer
Jan. 4, 2003, 03:14 PM
This is the first picture with the toe chopped off,

slb
Jan. 4, 2003, 07:30 PM
HossShoer, did you see changes in the coranary region as the foot returned to normal? If so, what changes?

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:59 AM
This horse's coronary band was pinched and sorta puckered up at the front and virtually straight on the sides and hooked in hard at the heal. By cutting of the front of the foot and 3/4 of the way up the wall at the toe the pinching pressure of the long toe was relieved and the coronary band just popped out over a few days.I think the measurement from the apex of his frog to the toe was almost 3 inches when I got him. It was about 1 1/2 inches when he left. A lot of farriers that I know are reluctant to be so aggressive on a client's horse because they can get pretty sore for awhile and it does not always work, so they don't want to be resposible. On my own horses I usually put the foot where I think it should be right off the get go. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. But at least I know in a few weeks not months. On this horse I figured it was something in his back or hips and had him cracked a few times and ponied for a month to get in shape before even putting a saddle and rider on him.

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 08:47 AM
This is just what ya wanta see when you get home from a long day at the office and you're ready to go ride for awhile.

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 08:58 AM
Wilt is a 15 yr. 17.2hh Han. G. with the toughest feet in the world. I've him since he was 6 and I hardly ever shoe him. Anyway last spring he was out being Joe Stud and ordering around everyone in the field and ripped up his back foot. I cut off the rip above the cononary band and wrapped it with a poltice for a month or so and stallrested him for 3 months. Then put on just a plain shoe and filled the sole with the Equithane Quick set, the really hard stuff and turned him out till the shoe fell off.Now you have to be down on your hands and knees with your nose a few inches from the seam where the rip was to see the area where he ripped off his heal. I deal with a lot of old quarter cracks and they never seem to heal up like this one did. I think the extended stall rest was the best thing to do.

[This message was edited by HossShoer on Jan. 05, 2003 at 12:07 PM.]

FairWeather
Jan. 5, 2003, 09:40 AM
wow! That was one helluva gauge!

Wondering if anybody has any opinions on this--4 year old TB, has had a rank nasty Quarter crack for almost a year. FINALLY getting some foot to grow--previously there wasnt enough to even get a shoe on for support.
Any opinions about treatment?

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 12:31 PM
I'd sure be inclined to back that toe up a lot. looks to me like it's jammin up the coronary band, thus less growth and thus the crack. did this one race???

elizabeth
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:44 PM
Crieseda, I have a question.

Cressy's hoof looks great, from the side, but when I looked at the picture of the sole, it looks like there is a lot of sole past where the point of the frog is. I always thought that was bad. Yet, with Cressy's foot, if you cut off that toe closer to the point of the frog, you'd darn near cut the toe off.

Am I wrong with my impression that you aren't supposed to have quite so much sole after the point of the frog? Forgive my ignorance - I don't know much about this subject, but I am THRILLED with this thread. I can LEARN here!!

Thanks.

slb
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:45 PM
Ha...HossShoer...you beat me to it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I agree, get the toe backed up to get the pressure off the coronary. Get the heels back under him where they belong. Whole foot is moved forward.

slb
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:53 PM
Hi Elisabeth...yes, the best "formula" to use, is to try and get 1/3 of the foot in front of the widest part of the foot (somewhere near the apex of the frog) and about 2/3 behind. The heels (where the wall hooks into the bars) need to be back where the widest part of the frog is...approx. where the straight edge of the frog strarts to round. Generally, just chopping toes off isn't enough. You have to make sure that breakover is enhanced. Generally the best way to determine correct breakover is to use x-rays to determine where P3 lies, but you can also tell from the toe calouse that protects the tip of the coffing bone. The toe should lie just ahead of that and to enhance breakover, a bevel should be applied from the bottom upward across the bottom edge of the toe.

slb
Jan. 5, 2003, 02:14 PM
OK, I didn't want to get too carried away and get people mad, but if this is truly a learning experience, then I should say what I think. I appologize if I step on anyone's toes, but we can't learn if we don't discuss things either. The following is MO only and should be taken as such. I do not claim to be an expert http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cressy's feet are excellent to use as an example of what doesn't look too bad, but really isn't well balanced at all. Since a couple of people commented on those particular feet, I will make my first observations on those.

Observing the striping in the hoof wall, you can see that they are "curved" looking. There is a slight dish in the foot...this means the horn tubles are not growing straight....toe wants to run forward and heel will go with it.

In the solar view, it is quite obvious that the heels are slightly underrun and not pulled back to the widest part of the frog. IMO, they are starting to contract and could eventually become a problem. The foot is evenly spit 50/50 front to back on either side of the intersection of the widest point of the foot. Althouhgh it appears the toe is being backed up, it is not being taken back aggessively enough.

Fairweather...let's get your prerspective on some of these feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 02:48 PM
Here's a couple of feet that might give you a clearer picture of the long/short idea.
I can't remember which horse this was but it's a new one cause the nails on the shod foot sure aren't mine. I tend to drive 'em in as high as they will go. The toe is gone on the other one.

mcmIV
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:01 PM
Ok I have some time before dinner to post my new pics.

I am aware the feet are all underrun, etc. But I have gained some valuable insight from fresh looks this board has that open my eyes to other problems.

Oh - and just to keep you all updated - if you didn't follow the last thread with Java's feet. heheh These are the 1st shoeing into fixing underrun heels and poor angles. We have determined his heels are too long and underrun which causes the bad angles in the xrays - particularly behind. The front angles were "ok" according to the vet, but I didn't personally see them yet. The shoer squared off the toes, left the heels and set the shoes back all around. Next shoeing we are prepared to take it further.

I am looking for comments about what to talk to my shoer about next shoeing. I don't think these can be fixed in one more shoeing, but I want to stay focused and not let them get worse or no better.

Of course, pictures can only say so much with some accuracy. Angles, details and other things are probably hard to nail down with pics... but we try.

I see some interesting stuff behind this post that I have catch up on after dinner! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

I edited to put the feet in the right order... hopefully it updated the picture, otherwise, sorry - the labels are correct, they aren't orderly.

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Jan. 05, 2003 at 08:25 PM.]

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:23 PM
Martha, why does this horse not have corks and inner rim snow pads if it's in Chicago????
On ice, plain shoes are like skates.
Why not let him go barefoot for the winter if you're just riding him in a arena???
Otherwise it looks good to me. Nice short toe, esp. on the rears. Lots of shoe at the back of the foot. If he's sound and travels OK look after your farrier if he shows up` on time and whatever he's charging you it's not enough.LOL

mcmIV
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:29 PM
Hoss - he has little nails with borium on em at the back of each. You bet I was paranoid about ice skates! Those things are working like magic. He is cantering little tiny circles now days without any slippage in the outdoor. I think he's feeling better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can't STAND the noise they make when he turns around on the cement though.... it hurts my ears. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He has been barefoot for about 6 months. His feet hold up GREAT but the underrun toe and long heel caused us to put the shoe back to hold the foot up for corrections. Vet's advice. Can't hurt to put the shoes on for this.

I told the shoer I want them off in a few months with no more toes too long and the heel where it belongs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The vet he saw for his bonescan said he "doesn't have enough hoof wall for his size". I didn't ask her to clarify - and I have no idea what she meant. I wish I had.

His feet aren't huge, but they are normal sized. She said he needed shoes on or he would wear his heel down too fast by nature of his foot construction. I think it was just a vicious circle of the toe too long and not breaking over and then the heel got too long and you know the rest.

His back xrays were severly broken angles.

This new farrier is pretty cool. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He charged me $98 all around for all new shoes and lots of talking and looking and talking and fixing. He called me 5 times to set up this first appointment, in ONE DAY. I was impressed. I'm keeping him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:49 PM
This is a "I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW TOUGH STANDARDBREDS ARE" picture, This mare had her foal in Ontario, was shipped to Pa. to be bred and shipped back to Ontario. In Pa. they figured she was foundering, so in their infinite wisdom slapped a acrylic product, that will remain nameless, all over her foot, wall and sole.
When she got off the van here she was broken leg lame and the infection was to the ankle. The stable guys said you could even smell it. The big time vet college, which is also nameless, said to put her down, impossible to save. Well the farm's regular farrier was away and I was the first to call back. Oh lucky me NOT. Anyway I figured a heartbar was the answer. The farm vet ran enough drugs into her she could have raced. The left foot was not as bad as the right, but close. This mare survied in spite of me and is still kicking out foals. I have no idea what she was worth, but the attitude at the farm was "Do all ya can to save her" So when someone suggest "Let's slap`on a little acrylic to ......cover up that hole, or hold on that shoe or make the foot look better or,,,,,,
think real hard about this picture.I know I do every time I glue on shoes.

achcosuva
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:18 PM
Can you critique my feet?
Or, rather, my 3 y/o's feet back when they were 2 y/o feet. You can really see the left one, it's kinda chomped off by the camera, but, yeah. I know basically nothing about feet but Zigg's seem to be a bit soft/prone to bruising. He drags his toes along in a horrible manner. The ploddiest 3 y/o I ever did meet. At anyrate, I think we're putting him in shoes once he gets broke (this spring) even though he won't be in hard work, just elementary stuff until he's 4 and his bones are finally finished. Shoes or no shoes?

I'll try to get a better pic sometime but at the minute our entire farm is a muddy mess and I'm not sure I'm willing to show you a picture of the mud. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And, no, I don't consider it weird that I have a random picture of my horse's feet on the computer. Not at all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Anne, the sister of a PrettyFilly and searching for the PerfectHorse-
"I'm not insane...I just compartmentalize!"

achcosuva
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:21 PM
Oh, and here're my old mare's feet. She went barefoot year round. They were great feet! Much better than the horse, actually... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, they rarely chipped, cracked, etc. She was never lame from having footsie problems. Actually, she was the healthiest horse I ever met in all respects... How is that the worse they are the sounder they are, just so you don't have an excuse not to ride them? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Anne, the sister of a PrettyFilly and searching for the PerfectHorse-
"I'm not insane...I just compartmentalize!"

HossShoer
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:33 PM
This is a GP jumper mare that kicked in her stall, a lot.That's a nail with the head of it in her foot, just short of the P3. ( The Vet has the x-ray and still keeps it for lectures.) We pulled it with a pair of vice grips. It bled a little and was on antiboiotics for awhile. But she was back to work in no time at all.

mcmIV
Jan. 5, 2003, 07:32 PM
Regarding the comments on Cressy's feet....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:


Observing the striping in the hoof wall, you can see that they are "curved" looking. There is a slight dish in the foot...this means the horn tubles are not growing straight....toe wants to run forward and heel will go with it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also notice that PrettyFilly's 3-yr old has dished feet in her last post - similar to Cressy's.

So my question is - how does one fix this? You said the horn tubules aren't growing straight. I'm not entirely sure what that means anatomically..... but more importantly, I'm curious how you correct it. This is interesting.

Do some horse's have a "dish" to their hoof by nature of their confirmation and it's "ok"? Is this always somethign that is a result of "improper shoeing" or maybe better said, feet getting unbalanced over time...?

martha

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 12:03 AM
Some good questions Martha http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

First, anatomically, if the horn tubules are not growing straight and in the direction they are supposed to, the hoof wall is weak. There is a lack of interlocking mechanism and spaces develop between the tubules.

As far as some horses having dishes....generally never. Conformation does not directly attribute to the shape of the foot, but the shape of the foot can directly contribute to conformation (if that makes sense). For example, a horse with unbalanced, misaligned feet can be buck kneed, or severaly over at the knee. Unbalanced feet can cause muscle atrophy in the hip or shoulder areas. They can also cause back or other pain that is often attributed to a poor fitting saddle (that happens to, but this is about feet). Such back/muscle pain can cause altered gait, changes in stance, changes in muscle mass (increase or decrease).

Essentially, a dish in the toe is nothing more than a flare. This presents a simple question: If you don't think a flare in the quarter is correct, then why would you think that one in the toe was?

To remove the dish...in many cases it can simply be treated as a flare...remove the flare, the pressure is removed, the tubules start growing straight and the foot becomes healthier. Sometimes this requires aggressive backing up of the toe.

In short, the foot should generally have a stright profile from the hairline to the ground. Any time there is a dish, there is a weakening in the foot. While there are of course exceptions...generally when there is a dish, there is pressure on the white line, the tubules and the coronary band. All of these things result in poor hoof health and loss of integrity. The best remedy is to remove the pressure...that is to shorten the toe and enhance breakover. But, it must also be remembered that none of this is the answer, if the rest of the foot isn't balanced or correctly aligned.

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 12:19 AM
Pretty Filly and others, can you post profiles of the feet as well as solar views? It is really hard to get any idea of how the feet are from the front...especially in a pic...lack of depth and no idea what's going on with the heel.

Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mcmIV
Jan. 6, 2003, 06:46 AM
Your critiques are in high demand, SLB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Don't forget to check out Java's new pics - anything I need to keep in front of my farrier next shoeing?

I personally believe he still needs to get his heel back under him quite a bit more. Is this accurate?

Anything else you might see that I'm missing?

Anyone else have observations?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Show me some *good* feet.

martha

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:33 AM
Ok, since I don't know when the farrier (my husband) will have time to trim, I have gathered some pics to show you what a balanced foot looks like.

First is a side view that shows a mustang foot and foot trimmed in a natural balance trim to emulate the mustang foot. The domestic foot is most likely prepared to apply a shoe to, thus the quarters are not relieved (or floated). Notice the straight horn tubules and hairlines, and the tight appearance of the healthy hoof wall. The mustang foot has a natural roll to the entire edge....sometimes called a mustang roll. This is from an abrassive terrain and doesn't happen on feet that are on softer ground. However, generally, the toe will be rolled and the quarters relieved regardless of the terrain. The domestic foot is a work in progress and therefore not perfect. Notice the bevel on the bottom of the toe...that is the one that I noted earlier as being cut from the bottom upward and is used to enhance breakover. It is emulating the toe roll on the mustang.

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:47 AM
The next image is of the sole of a mustang...but it could be the sole of any correctly balanced foot.

Notice how straight the bars are. The tight close white line and hoof wall parallel each other. The frog is robust and the toe is not far in front of the apex of the frog. The heels are set back to the widest part of the frog. (I think this is a rear foot, so it is a little more on the oval side than round as a front foot should be.)

The bars are one of the best clues to how good your horse's foot is. They should be straight and upright, if they are curved or folded over, then there is something wrong with the foot. Curved is generally a good indication that there is contraction and/or underrun heels...the inward /forward pressure from the contraction/underrun forces the bars to bend. When the pressure is relieved, the bars straighten.

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:57 AM
This final image is of a mustang hoof also. Note the concavity of the sole. The frog is robust and touches the ground. Recent research has revealed that it is essential for the frog to make gound contact or for it to be supported to emulate ground contact to promote good circulation and thus a healthy foot. The lateral cartilages in a foot that the frog doesn't touch the ground will be deminished and the frog will become overly enlarged and unhealthy in its attempt to make ground contact. The whitish rim that is next to the hoof wall is the toe callous; it helps bear the weight and protects the coffin bone. Note that the bars are lower than the hoof wall and are passive weight bearing...that is as the foot expands upon loading, the bars come in contact with the ground sharing some of the load with the frog, wall, and sole.

mcmIV
Jan. 6, 2003, 12:54 PM
Looking at feet now with a little bit of an obsession, I am starting to "see" things that aren't there, I imagine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So I look at the first SLB image of the NB trim and the mustang foot. The NB trim, I see the heel sort of "long" and a little far forward.

But then, I think, "hmm most horse's look like that...."

So, I'm pretty sure I'm just looking for imaginary things, sort of like when you write a word 50 times and it looks like its spelled wrong on the 49th try.

I'm not sure how on earth I would expect a foot to look if I look at SLB's NB trim picture and imagine it "more like I thought it should be".

OK... so I rambled there, I guess looking for clarification that that is indeed the proper positioning for a heel....

But now I will post a picture.

So I'm considering my own situation, and lookign at SlB's pics.... and I put the two side-by-side.

To the best of my ability (I was pretty careful) the RED lines are the angle of the pastern and the PINK lines are hoof. The PINK lines match in angle exactly and are copied to the heel.

The RED lines on both horses, by my manual measurement are a tiny bit more upright then the foot, but this could be my error, they are off by a similar degree in my pictures.

The PINK lines are where I think I'm getting thrown off in my imaginary perfect hoof.

So the heel is a signifigantly steeper angle then the front of the hoof. I think in my mind I imagine the heel matching the angle in the front. This does not seem to be the case.... Clarifications for me?

Both horses seem to have a really similar angle to the heel design.... I checked it after I posted this picture.

So what does this say about Java's current foot? How does it differ from the Mustang's? What am I missing, if anything?

I do think, that it's possible Java's front angles still need to come up a degree to match his naturally uprightish confirmation. I think they are most surely not matching his as opposed the example mustang, which is negliable and probably just my drawing.... but I'm not positive. Perhaps another round of xrays in a couple months.

martha

HossShoer
Jan. 6, 2003, 01:24 PM
Hey slb, great posts and pictures.
Regards J.

Hilary
Jan. 6, 2003, 01:43 PM
Hosshoer can I ask a question? And I actually took a foot picture a while ago and will try to find it. he's got funny feet, but they've been holding him up quite well for 14 yeras.

My horse (TB eventer) has fairly small hind feet (yes, with the fairly thin walls of your typical TB). They tend to, when he's shod, to almost twist underneath him - hard to describe, but if you look at the hoof straight on, instead of both sides being perpendicular to the ground, they seem to meet the ground at an angle. like / / rather than 1 1. My farrier prefers to make her own clips rather than use keg shoes that come with clips, and she puts the clips fairly far back. I think that this increases the likelihood of the hoof to not stay straight because the shoe twists off to the outside, and no longer supports the wall. She wants them back there, nearly on the sides of the hoof, not the edges of the front, because she thinks it makes the shoe more secure.

Once last summer I had to have a different farrier shoe him in a short-notice situation and she used St. Croix eventers with the clips already in place. They are fairly forward, if you're not familiar with that shoe. This shoe did not slide to the side even at the end of his 5-6 week shoeing period, and his hoof stayed straighter. I have not been able to convince my regular farrier (who except for complaining a lot about his thin-walled, slow growing TB feet, does a good job) that the St. Croix gave him better support and stayed put better than her own forged shoes.

Am I crazy? Your mention of a toe clip behind made me think to ask you this question -

I hope I'm not coming across as trying to bash my farrier - she is very good with the horses, her shoes don't come off, but she and I differ on where the clips do the best work.

Right now he's enjoying the deep snow barefoot.

Ponio
Jan. 6, 2003, 01:44 PM
I don't have a picture of my horse's feet but I do have a question.

I know a lot of the time people shoe their horse in front but go barefoot in back. My horse has a problem with his back feet and he needs to have these special pads to raise his angles or else his hips and back gets sore. This is probably ridiculous, but I'm curious. Is it possible to just shoe in back and let the front go barefoot?

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 02:08 PM
Yes Martha, the heel on the NB trim is still underrun...I noted it as a work in progress...this was a first trim to realign and balance this foot. Didn't see a before, so don't know what all was done. Most horses should not look like that....although as you noted, most do.

I will reread your post and look at the feet then make comments in a bit.

Here is another natural trim. This hoof is much better in the heal area.

mcmIV
Jan. 6, 2003, 02:18 PM
Oh fantastic... i like that pic. It is what i had in mind... it looks at first glance it looks like the heel angle matches the front of the foot angle.

I am assuming this is the goal.

Thank you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I will observe it some more, and maybe compare it with lines to my java foot so i can see the specifics....

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ok, I've observed with pictures. I think, based on what I'm learning... that this picture is a great side-by-side of what underrun heels means, compared to what's right. Correct?

If so, then I think this is what all of us more ignorant folks need to look at.

In fact, I believe the definition of underrun, based on what I'm learning, is specifically that the heels are a much more horizontal slope/angle then the hoof... as illustrated. If that's the case, that really clears this up for me at least as far as having an educated eye.

I actually have some more questions about the nature of underrun heels and how they become corrected... but I will wait for comments on the images and discussions above before I throw more into the pot...

martha

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Jan. 06, 2003 at 05:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Jan. 06, 2003 at 05:32 PM.]

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
So I'm considering my own situation, and lookign at SlB's pics.... and I put the two side-by-side.

To the best of my ability (I was pretty careful) the RED lines are the angle of the pastern and the PINK lines are hoof. The PINK lines match in angle exactly and are copied to the heel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like you did a farily good job placing the lines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The RED lines on both horses, by my manual measurement are a tiny bit more upright then the foot, but this could be my error, they are off by a similar degree in my pictures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will address this at the bottom of the post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The PINK lines are where I think I'm getting thrown off in my imaginary perfect hoof.

So the heel is a signifigantly steeper angle then the front of the hoof. I think in my mind I imagine the heel matching the angle in the front. This does not seem to be the case.... Clarifications for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. The object is not to match the angles...this is where we run into trouble.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Both horses seem to have a really similar angle to the heel design.... I checked it after I posted this picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is because of the difference in the angles that the pics were taken at...yours is a bit more head on then the NB trim pic. So, in my estimation, if your pic were at the same angle, you would see that Java's heel is still much further forward than in the one I posted.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So what does this say about Java's current foot? How does it differ from the Mustang's? What am I missing, if anything?

I do think, that it's possible Java's front angles still need to come up a degree to match his naturally uprightish confirmation. I think they are most surely not matching his as opposed the example mustang, which is negliable and probably just my drawing.... but I'm not positive. Perhaps another round of xrays in a couple months. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, here's where I tell you why we don't match the angles. In the NB trim, the trim is approach ed from the bottom only. That means that the trim is done to the live sole plane. The attention is on finding the true apex of the frog, determining where the tip of P3 resides, and a few other landmarks...like heels back to the widest part of the frog, 1/3 front and 2/3 back of widest part of foot, straight horn tubules, straight hairline (no bumps or dips).

How does this work? Once the foot is balanced accordingly, everything naturally comes into alignment and stays in alignment during movement...as evidenced by x-ray research. The foot is dynamic, therefore we must consider that correct alignment is maintained throughout movement as well.

Considering Java's feet at this time....the two biggest things that I see wrong are 1)nails in the holes past the widest part of the foot...it can never open up and become a more natural shape as long as it is held in place by nails. Since there is a consensus that the majority of expansion and movement takes place behind the widest part of the foot, it is also considered that there shouldn't be any nails there. The shoe will not fall off is correctly applied. 2)The toe and heels need to be aggressively moved back. Doing a little at a time will never accomplish the job...well maybe in several years if you are lucky. Checking the angles on the hoof wall and the pasturn will also never get the job done. The foot doesn't have to exactly match the pasturn angle because sometimes the unbalanced foot has created a false pasturn angle. By addressing the correct balance and "natural" alignment, somethimes sloping or upright pasturns are changed to more normal postions. The alignment is in center of the bones (P 1, 2, and 3) and should be aligned so that the joints have even pressure on them.

Hope this makes sense?

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 03:48 PM
5mgn...generally shoeing backs only is not something that can be done. The problem is that when a shoe is applied...even correctly...there is some change in gait. Often if a horse were to be shod in the rear only, the result would be interfenence or overreach...stepping on the front heels or clipping the front legs.

Do you know exactly what the problem is?

Coca-Cola
Jan. 6, 2003, 03:57 PM
slb, I looked at cresida's feet, and I don't see the underrun heel you are talking about. I see what appears to be a good amount of heel growing parallel to the front of the hoof. Quite honestly, the pictures you posted of the mustang feet look underrun to me.

I am confused. Can you enlighten? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

HossShoer
Jan. 6, 2003, 04:26 PM
Hilary,back in 98 or 99 I was in Virginia for shoeing clinic with Craig Tranka, current president of the American Farriers Association,American Gold Farrier Team member forever and World Champion Farrier at Calgary. So Craig is somewhat up on shoeing. Anyway in one of the live shoeing demos he made a back shoe for this TB and used a toe clip. Lot's of discussion and questions about it from the group of farriers. Hardly anyone in the clinic has used a toe clip as much as I have based on what I see in a foot. It's not for 'em all, but ya know I think it works quite well on certain feet. Craig stessed to us to be creative and not get stuck in a closed frame of mind and to try different shoeing techniques and see what works and look real hard at how the horse is going afterwards. If you don't think it's working try something else.

And the question about just shoeing the back feet. Try it. See what happens. How about putting the shoe on backwards and leave the toe open with sorta of a bar shoe at the back of the foot. The angle gets changed right off the get go and maybe with the extra steel out the back it will slow down the back foot so it does not hit the front. Or maybe take some of the quick set equithane and use that as a shoe. Heck I could run this bill up enough to get a set of braces for my kids.
Good Luck J.

Ponio
Jan. 6, 2003, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do you know exactly what the problem is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He has really bad angles in back and his heels are really low and that changes the way he works off his stifles and then we get all sorts of problems. He used to be used for saddleseat so I don't know the way they shoe them has anything to do with his problems. Although if that is the case I think eventually his feet will grow more "correctly". It is just he has such nice, healthy, strong feet it seems a shame not to let him go barefoot, at least in the winter.

mcmIV
Jan. 6, 2003, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lady cottington:
slb, I looked at cresida's feet, and I don't see the underrun heel you are talking about. I see what appears to be a good amount of heel growing parallel to the front of the hoof. Quite honestly, the pictures you posted of the mustang feet look underrun to me.

I am confused. Can you enlighten? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first mustang picture she posted - she clarified a second time (after I compared it to Java's foot) that it was a "work in progress". So they are a little underrun if you read her second post about it.

slb posted another picture later on that is a more correct foot, look back a few posts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

mcmIV
Jan. 6, 2003, 06:52 PM
slb - thanks for your explanation. I will have him take the 4th nail out next time, it's the only holding the traction nail for ice. I talked him into it the last time... I need some good traction in this ice or I'll end up with a busted ankle, but good feet.

I will also push for more toe off - how agressive can one be with toe removal as a general rule? The horse *can* bleed if cut back too far, right?

So basically - if I have this correct, the foot will grow differently - grow into a proper heel like you last posted a picture of.... if the foot is simply trimmed "balanced"? Easier said then done, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But good knowledge.

Thanks to you and hoss and any other knowledgeables for all your time spent on this thread - I think it might be enlightening a lot of people.

martha

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:46 PM
Lady cottington...I can understand your confusion. Perhaps part of it is that I am not using the word underrun in a correct manner. I am vaguely using it to mean that the heel is not back at the widest part of the frog...but that doesn't really neccessarily indicate that it is underrun...sometimes it just means the horse needs a trim. I think the technical term...one you might be more familar with....has to do with a particular degree (around 5 I think) of difference between the front and back of the hoof angles. Maybe Hoss shoer can give us some more info on that particular aspect. However, for the purpose of learning from this post, I called a foot that exhibited an inbalance of this sort underrun, because most likely it could become such or was such.

The criteria that I use to decide if a heel is underrun or not can be observed between the sole views of the mustang foot and Cresida's. Can you see that the heels on the mustang are pulled back to the widest part of the frog, while Cressie's are not yet there. That doesn't mean that they won't get there...they are probably improved over the previous trim.

Hope this helps http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:49 PM
Hoss Shoer...glad you are here to impart some of the techical and creative aspects of shoeing...although I know some about trimming, I don't generally stick around for the forge work.

Some good ideas on dealing with the problem of shoeing hinds only http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rebelspi
Jan. 6, 2003, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
Looking at feet now with a little bit of an obsession, I am starting to "see" things that aren't there, I imagine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

am i the only one who doesn't agree with the mustang trim? ( well besides my farrier)? Because there are no natural "mustangs" and only feral horses, the true effect of a mustang trim wouldn't be there.

Feral horses don't have to work, they have no natural enemies, they eat and walk around, and bred. A pleasure horse riding on a mustang trim would seem to aggrivate more than it could help...

maybe i'm just crazy, but it seems like a "trendy" thing to do, instead of just trimming the horse correctly the first time. My farrier refuses to do it for those reasons above, and once he explains it in his amazing fairy language most people back off in wanting it. oh well, just an opinion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:47 AM
Rebelspi...First let me explain that I only posted the mustang feet...and not all were....because some were asking to see what a "good" foot looked like. I totally agree, mustangs are mustangs and domestic horses are domestic horses...however a balanced correctly aligned trim, is also a balanced, aligned trim...regardless of the foot it is on.

However, while there is a difference, there is much that we can learn from a wild foot. Some of the things are good to emulate, some are not. The word "natural" doesn't make it bad....it just means that it is based on what is "natural" for a horse as opposed to forced to fit a criteria that no one seems to remeber where it came from.

I like what one person has named a similar trim - "less is more". In other words he has found what all "natural" trimmers have found...that if you address a couple of areas that seem highly relevant to the natural foot, then the foot just seems to do the rest on its own...with little intervention....to me that is the best way to trim...do as little as you have to. However, that also doesn't mean a quick swipe with the rasp and we're done.

I am very interested in hearing more about your impression of why a riding horse in a natural trim would be aggrivated rather than helped? What would be the cause of aggrivation? I agree that if a natural trim is applied incorrectly that it can be a problem....all trims need to be balanced and correctly aligned to provide comfort for the horse. IMO, a "natural" trim simply means a trim that is well balanced and aligned...not much more.

Could you also explain what exactly you mean by "...it seems like a "trendy" thing to do, instead of just trimming the horse correctly the first time." I totally agree, they should be trimmed correctly the first time...but I'm confused by this statement. Could you explain what you think is a good trim...do you have pics of a good trim? I'm always interested in learning more http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lisamarie8
Jan. 7, 2003, 03:03 AM
OK. I'll play. I just found these and they were taken this summer of my 4 year old TB/QH (AKA, Ozzy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) I don't have a solar view unfortunately. But tell me what you do see. In this pic his foot looks a little dished. If that ISN'T a trick of the camera, I can tell you it's not dished anymore.

Just some background. I've had Ozzy since birth. He's a super sound horse and in his 4 years has worn shows for about 6 months...and that was as a 2 year old. Don't ask http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif This past summer we worked on a pretty regular basis (rode 3-5 time a week, trails and some flatwork) I'm trying to keep him barefoot as long as possible. I event, and I'm thinking that should be hopefully up through training ... if we get there http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8
Jan. 7, 2003, 03:06 AM
Here's the front view.

*disclaimer* I didn't put a lot of thought into the taking of these pics, sooo they are far from being taken at the perfect angles http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

HossShoer
Jan. 7, 2003, 04:25 AM
Rebelspi, great point.That's the beauty of the horse business. It's like the BB'er with the signature line "2 people, 3 opinions" well with farriers it's exponentially way higher.
Anyway there is a horse dealer friend of mine on the east coast who maitains if it wasn't for fariiers and vets she wouldn't have any horses to sell. She buys em all and sorts through them and her farrier just does the basics. Mainly mustang type trims amd straight foreward BASIc shoeing.
That's another point I'd like to make about day to day shoeing. In my regular clientel 99 % of the shoeing is BASIC BASIC BASIC shoeing. The only time I get to play is when someone talks me into taking on their barn or I buy something that has a big problem, mentaly or physically

Geesh I need a coffee. It's too early in the am to get carried away on this. Anybody see that Pittsburg / Cleavland game?????
Regards J.

mcmIV
Jan. 7, 2003, 06:35 AM
As long as we are discussing "trendy trims" (so to speak), does anyone have opinions on the Strausser trim? I would be very curious to hear what the buzz is on that....based on my experience with horses having this trim.

slb - I can't speak for Rebel, but I sort of understand where the word trendy is coming from. It's almost as if these different "natural" methods of shoeing are following the same trend as the "natural" eating fad - where no matter what, as long as it's "natural" its healthy.

This isn't always true, of course, and instead of educating themselves to good natural and consumer-driven-natural-hype, people just buy whatever says "natural".

So in the same vein, my observations of the horse people in my own community - they are "drawn" to the notion of a "mustang" trim, without even understand what it means or how it relates to their horse. They are drawing to the Strausser trim, cause (according to amatuer hype I hear), it is bringing the horse's foot back to where it belongs.

The moment they hear something like that, there is no more knowledge seeking, it is all about going au-natural and making dramatic changes to bring the horse back to nature. *Sometimes*, I think people, and horse people too, are just going with a trim, or a product, because it sounds good - or is a trend. Like the mustang trim.

Whether or not I want to apply a straight up Mustang trim to my horse has no bearing on whether a *mustang* has a nice foot to look at. slb clarified nicely when she explained why she posted the picture - it shows a good foot.


Back to my question - any thoughts on the Strausser method?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Hilary
Jan. 7, 2003, 10:35 AM
Here are Clancy's front feet - yes, he toes out, from the shoulder, moreso on the right than the left.

He's got rocker toes to help keep his toes from 'ski jumping" out the front door (I think this was the technical farrier phrase she used) because his heels were not great, but his angles aren't too too bad.

It's worked well for him. I took this picture to show the toe-out, rather than the feet, but if you look carefully you can see the crack in the left one. It's always there and seems to be just on the surface, but it hasn't changed.

His right front is whitish, vet thinks b/c he was blistered at some point.

mcmIV
Jan. 7, 2003, 11:51 AM
Hilary - show some side views.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Then we can see where he really "stands". That's a bad pun.

martha

Hilary
Jan. 7, 2003, 12:06 PM
I'll try to get some done soon -and will do hinds and soles while I'm at it. He's currently barefoot, so we can see all the uglies.

He had sheared heels behind too, but they are gone now (I"m happy about this, but he would have been a good subject!)

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:05 PM
Ok, Martha....I really didn't want to go there because it often brings all kinds of people out of the woods and a long drawnout pro/con thing goes forever. But, since you asked, I will give you my briefest perspective on a Strasser trim.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Pros:
<LI>There are a lot of people that claim it has returned their horses to soundness.
<LI>Many noted a significant benefit or increase in soundness after the first trim.
<LI>Strasser has identifed that many behavior, joint, and back/leg/hip/shoulder issues, as well as poor hoof quality/health, are the result of poor trims and misapplication of shoes, not of conformation or genetics. IMO, this is probably the most significant contribution to the horse world that Strasser has made.
<LI>It is not just a trim, it is a whole management "system" that advocates natural horsekeeping....24/7 turnout, "natural" diet, no clipping, no blanketing, no wraps, daily exercise , no shoes.
<LI>It has won the attention of owners....for the first time, there is a "trend" amoung horseowners to understand hoof form and function.[/list]

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Cons:
<LI>The idea of trimming has been put in the hands of very unskilled, unknowing amature owners...some of Strasser's Certified Hoofcare Specialists (CHS) have only been horse owners a year...all that they know and understand about horses comes from Strasser and no other source.
<LI>Some owners are still trying to achieve soundness after 2-3 years of trimming.
<LI>The case studies that I have seen "returned to soundness" were originally largely cases of neglect or the worst trim/shoeing jobs that I have ever seen....not on the owner's part, but from lack of knowledge on both the vet's and farrier's part...the feet were not trimmed properly to realign coffin bones after founder and some were abandoned by their vet/farrier and left to stand with bad feet for as long as a year or more. Any attention to the feet would have improved the condition.
<LI>IMO, the trim is to invassive....opening cuts remove the hook between the wall and the bar, bars are often removed below the level of the sole, the sole is thinned by cutting into live sole to attain concavity. 2-3 years ago it was not unusual to hear of blood being struck during a Strasser trim....much complaint about this has prompted Strasser to warn agains hitting blood.
<LI>The trim is designed to create a "harmonic curve"....IMO, this creates a broken back axis.
<LI>The attention to hoof "mechanism" outweighs all other aspects of the trim...thus the opening cuts, bar removal, and sole thinning. There is no understanding of "too much" mechanism or lack of hoof integrety as Strasser evades these lessons in her teachings.
<LI>Strasser's ideas of form and function, both in the foot and other leg/body parts stray from the norm...they are not in compliance with standard vet/farrier research or standards on form and function.
<LI>Some CHSs discoverd that they lamed, foundered, or otherwise injured their own horses applying a Strasser trim...they returned their certificates...or they were revoked for lack of knowledge or proper application...depends on the perspective.
<LI>CHSs are NEVER allowed to attempt or even suggest shoeing or other trim methods.[/list]

A few other observations...CHSs privately disucss that they do not do full Strasser trims. Many do not recertify after the first year of trimming...a requirement to continue as a CHS. Several farriers and vets that sat in review of Strasser's work at Tufts have issued warnings about the dangers of the aggressiveness of the trim. Strasser has few, if any. research papers that have been published for peer review. It is reported that she is no longer well recieved in Germany (where her clinic is located).

There is lots more...some of it is gossip, some not...but it really isn't relevant to this post, so I'll leave this info for you to comment on.

HFSH
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:07 PM
HossShoer, can you explain how you work on a horse with narrow/pinchhed/contracted (take your pick) heels? I think most of this thread has been dealing with underrun heels. I'm curious about the high & narrow heel fixes. (fixes is probably a bad word).

I find shoeing absolutely facinating. in my former life I was a shoer, me thinks.

betsyk
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:22 PM
I wish I had photos to post; maybe I'll try to finish a roll of film tomorrow and get it developed before this thread dies out.

To make a long story short, my TB is a graduate of the "long toe/low heel saved by NB shoes/trims" program. My 20-y-o Arab is now trimmed by the same farrier who does my TB, and while we have addressed his formerly long toes, he still won't grow heel. He's not shod, and won't be, because he's semi-retired. What are the collective thoughts on my vet's comment that if he's made it to 20 years old with a good soundness history, maybe it's best not to force changes in his feet at this time in his life?

mcmIV
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:29 PM
My only experience with Strasser is a couple people I know who are very dilligent about this.... of 4 horses I know who have been trimmed this way for over a year, 3 are noticeably lame, and the 4th I haven't personally seen, but hear is looking really good.

The 3 that are still lame, one is looking ok under saddle and 2 can hardly walk on the pavement to get turned out.

So, it prompts me to ask "why would you do this!?" and "what the heck is this method?" I have asked them, but I get vague answers about it being more natural and right... but I can't understand why a horse would continue to be lame for over a year.

Despite that, these people are dilligent, knowledgeable and always seeking continuing education and truly trying to follow through on this so they acheive eventual soundness...so I reserve "judgement".

Thank you for the detailed response slb, it is helpful to me so that I can look at my fellow horse people with a more educated understanding of this.

Another foot question for anyone who has an answer. What does soaking the foot in water do? Keeping the water below the coronet, soaking for maybe 20-60 mins a day every day. Is this good, bad, sometimes good, never good?

I have always thought that soaking the foot in water regularly is a bad thing....but I see this done, and I wonder if I'm missing something.

martah

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
slb - I can't speak for Rebel, but I sort of understand where the word trendy is coming from. It's almost as if these different "natural" methods of shoeing are following the same trend as the "natural" eating fad - where no matter what, as long as it's "natural" its healthy.

This isn't always true, of course, and instead of educating themselves to good natural and consumer-driven-natural-hype, people just buy whatever says "natural".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Martha, you are so right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Yes, I would agree from this perspective...these are "trends". However, the NB trim that I posted about has been around for at least 20 years...but, its benefits are just now coming to light....the wonders of the Internet. Additionally, many other "natural" trims have been around at least 10 years. Strasser appears to be the only "newbie" on the "natural band wagon".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So in the same vein, my observations of the horse people in my own community - they are "drawn" to the notion of a "mustang" trim, without even understand what it means or how it relates to their horse. They are drawing to the Strausser trim, cause (according to amatuer hype I hear), it is bringing the horse's foot back to where it belongs.

The moment they hear something like that, there is no more knowledge seeking, it is all about going au-natural and making dramatic changes to bring the horse back to nature. *Sometimes*, I think people, and horse people too, are just going with a trim, or a product, because it sounds good - or is a trend. Like the mustang trim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I see your point. I would hope that everyone would take the time to find out as much as they could before attempting something like this that has such a significant impact on their horse's health and well being. From my experience of talking to Strasser followers for nearly 3 years, most are new horse owners, or ones that have never thought about how they managed their horse (especailly their feet) before. They generally get angry with this implication, indicating they have to start somewhere....I generally reply, "but please, don't stop with one choice, there is so much more to learn". However, they don't seem to agree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

HossShoer
Jan. 7, 2003, 03:07 PM
slb, that's the best explanation of the "other" trim and her disciples I've ever seen.
You in politics or what????LOL

HossShoer
Jan. 7, 2003, 03:31 PM
HFSH, good question.
Depends on what the horse is doing and if they're sound and comfortable as is.
Main thing would be to get the tubules as straight as possible and that usually means the toe gets backed up. I don't get carried away with dropping the heels on a older horse. They usually want to carry a bit extra height, as long as the heel isn't pulled forward and bent under.
Just upright heels can come from something higher up, I think. I've seen some clubby looking feet that got along fine with the owner.
It does get a little tricky when they develop a problem and don't get enough time to get better and are brought back too quick. That's when the you know what hits the fan, after the vet wants one thing, the trainer another and the owner just read about a "NEW" way to fix it in Equus.
I'm real big on what's going on up top. I have two differnt massage therapist and three vet/'chiropractors work on my own horses. They all know what's going on cause I tell 'em. We all work together to sove the problem and that's the way it is. No one has that magic bullet fix When ya punch through 50- 60 horses a year there's usually something interesting to work on. They enjoy getting a chance to figure out something without the typical owner/trainer pressures. By the time the cripples get to me there ain't nowhere to go but up.
Hope that sorta answers your question.

HossShoer
Jan. 7, 2003, 04:13 PM
http://www.americanfarriers.org
This is the web site for The American Farriers Association. For anyone who is interested in learning more about what's going on with your horse's feet, go to the clinics in your area. Most states have a chapter and run regular clinics that are open to anyone who pays the money at the door or takes out a membership. (Usually $50) Not all clinics are equal. I have driven to Florida, Virgina, New York and Michigan to some of the best there were. Some of the best have been within 30 minutes of home. There are hardly ever any owners there. You're missing out on some great opportunities to see the best there are first hand. It would help you to get a feel for who's for real and who is blowin smoke.
Regards J.

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:35 PM
Martha, your observations of Strasser trimmed horses and the dilligence of their owners is not an unusual one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The reason they continue is that they are instructed that shoeing and traditional trims (whatever that means) have damaged the inside of the foot (even if it isn't that evident on the outside) to the point that it will take 1 or more years to completely heal. During the "transition period", they are taught that it will not be unusual for the horses to be lame except on soft footing, to expect recurring abscessing as part of the healing process as circulation is restored in the foot (the primary reason why the feet were so badly damaged - shoes restrict circulation and thus can result in nerve damage, which is why shoes can temporarily relieve pain on pathological feet...the foot is numb). They are told that if the horse is lame, that the foot simply isn't healthy and the trim needs "tweeking". They are told to purchase boots as it will be a neccessary tool of the transition period (if they expect to ride)...some horses need them in the pasture also. In short, they are biding their time until the foot completely heals. Which leads people who want to ride sound horses to leave the trim and find other methods.

The horses are lame for so long, because the invasiveness of the trim causes trauma to the corium....in short, they are often creating the abscessing (something again that Strasser does not teach in her classes...that you can actually cause abscessing with an invasive trim). They are taught that it is not unusal for a Strasser trimmed horse to have continually warm feet...to see them steaming in the snow...as a result of the increased circulation. The sole thining keeps the horse ouchy on rough footing. The broken back axis (which often isn't all that evident) is most likely causing joint, limb, and muscle pain.

The bottom line is that Strasser is the only one that claims her trim is the "only" answer, 100 percent success, and talks of full restoration of health to the foot. From my experience, this becomes an exercise in faith for many "followers". They become fanatical in their quest and support of the "one true trim" and the woman that has taught them how to "save" their horses. They feel that they have had a revelation in understanding the form and function of the foot and that you and I simply can't understand until we accept Strasser into our lives....sound familiar (no offense to anyone)?

Soaking: Strasser advocates soaking to keep the foot flexable and restore mechanisim. It is recommended that the horse be inticed to stand in water around the watering tub, or that the owner do this approx. 20 mins 2x/day. It is additionally recommended that the owner soak abscessing feet in apple cider vinegar for approx. 20 mins 1-2x/day to relieve the abscessing...they can never be dug out.

The concensus at Tufts was that soaking in water is not a bad and is sometimes a neccessary thing...but like everything, to much is not better. They all offered that it does not benefit the hoof to be overly wet any more than it benefits it to be to overyly dry. They agreed that Strasser's recommendations for soaking were not beneficial.

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HossShoer:
slb, that's the best explanation of the "other" trim and her disciples I've ever seen.
You in politics or what????LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, HossShoer, when you spend 3 years posting on the Strasser board to subtly dispute her treachings, you learn to be a politician so you don't get kicked off or flamed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You make a good point that should be well taken...if owners spent some time learning what farriers are taught, then they would gain new perspectives of hoof care. This is definately a time of change in the farriery sciences and some of the best information is offered at farrier conferences. There was recently an online conference for $150 (I think). It presented the latest and greatest in new ideas on hoof care. It was open to the public and everyone that participated seemed very impressed with the way it went. There will be another next year...check out Horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) for more information and a great place to ask farriers and experienced owners about hoof care. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:57 PM
Lisamarie...I think the dish is an optical illusion. The horn tubules seem too straight for there to be an actual dish. Hmmm...on second look, it does seem like there might have been a slight dish near the bottom...looks like the tubules are a little curved there, but this must be grown out by now...the important thing is the top part is nice and straight and tight.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OK...I can't stand it, what type of trim is he in? Are the mustang role and relief in the quarters put there or are they naturally occuring? What type of terrain does he live/train/ride on?

Lisamarie8
Jan. 8, 2003, 06:13 AM
My Farrier is fabulous. She's a advocate of keeping them barefoot. And even better she's taken ALL the information that's out there (trendy or not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and uses that knowledge to trim however is best for the individual horse. As to what TYPE of trim he's getting, I don't know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I watch and ask questions When Katrina is working, but I've never asked that particular question. And to admit some of my ignorance (cause that's how we learn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) What is "the mustang role and relief in the quarters"

When those pics were taken he was being ridden on a regular basis. He was turned out on a pasture that was used as a polo field (grass) with a dirt track around it. Level and firm, but not hard. I was riding, however, ALL over the place. Serious hacks over all kinds of terrain. Gravel, rocks, mud, streams, you name it.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8
Jan. 8, 2003, 06:22 AM
Here's another pic of his foot. I took this one obviously to document one of the MANY boo-boos Ozzy manages to give himself. But gives you another angle.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

HFSH
Jan. 8, 2003, 07:08 AM
Okay, next question. Deep crack that runs straight up the very toe, ending just below the corornary band, about 1/4" below. Crack is deep but has not spread.

I have a mare with this. 2 summers ago she gravelled up this toe. Will it be possible for her to grow this out or am I looking at shoes and laces?

Proud member of the "I Hate Physical Therapy" clique | Auction for Aiden!
YaBB me baby! http://www.hopefulfarm.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

slb
Jan. 8, 2003, 07:54 AM
Lisamarie...a mustang roll is that slight "roll" on the edge of the foot. Relief in the quarters is the slight raise in the quarters so that they have less resistance with the ground on contact. If this is a fairly new trim, then your farrier must put them there...is it isn't, then it is the way the foot wears. Check back in the thread where I posted pics of mustang feet....there is something about a mustang roll there.

Your farrier probably doesn't have a name for the trim....my husband doesn't....he developed the way he trims based on accumulated knowledge and applies it differently depending on the individual.

mcmIV
Jan. 8, 2003, 08:24 AM
Hmm.... SLB your husband should name his trim after himself. Sort of like fashion designers....Maybe he will be famous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Same with lisamarie's farrier..... soon there will be hundreds of standard trims out there....

"What kind of trim is that? Oh, this? It's an 'slb', we started doing it back before it was famous!"

hah.

martha

slb
Jan. 8, 2003, 08:49 AM
Ya....IMO, that is the real "fad"....not the fact that people are doing the trims...but that what should be a standard trim now has as many names as it does variations.

The reason I use Natural Balance to explain trimming is because that is closest to the trim that I am familiar with (my husband's)....with the advantage of a web site with a trim tutorial already posted, it makes life easier for me. To me, the wild horse studies only provided support of "correctness" for what I had always thought was a "standard" trim.

I scratch my head when people talk about the "barefoot movement" or "natural trim fad"....to me this has always been the standard in the 30+ years I have been around horses. I also have to wonder what people think are "correct" trims when they think natural trims are fads http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Rebelspi
Jan. 8, 2003, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Martha, you are so right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Yes, I would agree from this perspective...these are "trends". However, the NB trim that I posted about has been around for at least 20 years...but, its benefits are just now coming to light....the wonders of the Internet. Additionally, many other "natural" trims have been around at least 10 years. Strasser appears to be the only "newbie" on the "natural band wagon".
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


there is my point exactly. real mustangs are thousands of years old, whereas the horses today that are being copied, are feral horses. there are no "real" mustangs to emulate with the trims. they are feral horses with no enemies. i disapprove of trimming a riding horse this way (mustang trim) because the mustang trim works for a horse who's walking around, grazing, and breeding.

so basically, a mustang trim is going on a horse expected to work, and it's not "natural" per say for a working domestic horse to be walking around on a mustang foot.

i have also heard that at the AFA convention last year the mustang trim," natural" and the strausser trim were put right out of line by one of the best blacksmiths in the country... if he doesn't believe in it, then i'll stick with him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb
Jan. 8, 2003, 06:41 PM
Hmmm...well...the word "mustang" comes from the Spanish...where the Mustangs of N. America came from about 400 years ago. Yes, I agree, today's "mustangs" are feral horses, not "wild" horses...never were wild. Additonally, feral horses do not have a "cushy" lifestyle...there are preditors...although limited...and they don't just walk around grazing all day. Even if that is your perception, how would that have differed from the life styles of "true" wild horses? Additionally, this does seem to parallel the lifestyle of western range bred and raised domestic horses...ones that are regulary taken off the range - in an untrimmed, natural foot - and broke and put to work with no change in their feet.

I agree that generally speaking, a full "mustang" trim is not correct for the terrain or lifestyle of certain domestic horses. Those feet are naturally formed to obtain optimal performance on the terrain that those horses live on...their feet are slightly different depending on if they are mountain or desert horses and live on soft or abrassive ground. I also agree that you can't prepare a foot in a full "mustange" trim if it is being shod. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn or take from nature. To the best of my knowledge, none of the natural trims are carbon copies of untrimmed feral feet. They are only taking the basic premis of breakover, balance, and alignment from horses that have a "natural" profile and use that information to determine how to correctly balance and trim a foot. BTW, these theories of applying natural trim perameters to domestic feet have now been proven to be beneficial and correct through research including x-ray (Page), studies in dynamics (Clayton), and comparative studies of feral vs. domestic hoof structures (Bowker). Additonally, Pollitt, the leading researcher in laminitis, now recommends the Natrual Balance trim and shoeing system for successful treatment of founder...over traditional methods, such as heartbars, that he used to recommend. He has studied its success.

Do you believe in the new programs that are being used at universities and clinics to correctly balance and align the feet? Where do you suppose they got the model that they use to do all this corrective balancing and alignment?

Not sure where you got your AFA info, but they did a big roundtable on natural trims....asked a number of natural trimmers to submit half trimmed feet with the other half untrimmed so they could compare what the trim actually accomplished. This was one of the highlights of last year's conference, so I don't think they are dismissing it. Yes, I am sure that there are some AFA officals and others with power that are still saying that it should be dismissed. However, some of the primary contributors to the study and applicaion of "natural" trim methods are AFA certified farriers.

Edited 9:44....If you are taking about Henry Hammering's (sp?) - president of Farrier's Guild, not AFA...warning about the Strasser trim...and several others were posted as well...yes, I totally agree with what he and the others said....as evidenced by my previous post. If you would like to read these warnings they are posted at Hoof Care and Lamness online (http://www.hoofcare.com)...scroll down to Strasser trim and follow the links. IMO, I do not put the Strasser trim in the same framework as other natural trims....IMO, there is nothing "natural" about Strasser's trim.

BTW, if you wnat to know why I am an advid promotor of "natural type" trims (not all just some)....I have 8 horses in natural trims....mostly barefoot, that do all kinds of work. All are sound...some were even rehab cases returned from severe founder to soundness on rough, rocky trails on hilly terrain. There is also Pete Ramey in the Ozarks that runs a string of pack and trail horses in barefoot, natural trims...he is so successful at rehabing bad feet that he is highly sought after for consultations and work throughout the country. My husband applies this trim successfully to eventers, hunters, jumpers, dressage horses, reiners, ropers, team penners, WP horses, halter, and trail horses....his work depends on his success as he is a theraputic farrier.

Rebelspi, you still haven't included your defintion or pic of a correct trim. Since you indicated "it seems like a "trendy" thing to do, instead of just trimming the horse correctly the first time"...I am still left in the dark by this statement. Isn't that the point of all this....the trim isn't correct to begin with, that is why we are looking at natural trim alternatives...not because it is "trendy". I am still looking forward to understanding your definition of a correct trim and how it is attained.

Thanks for the opportunity to debate this as I think we can all learn from it. I don't take any of this personally and I don't judge other's choices. We are all here for the same reason...to discuss ways to keep our horses healthy and sound. We all have different paths to the end, but, IMO, that doesn't make any one better than another...just different. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by slb on Jan. 08, 2003 at 09:55 PM.]

HossShoer
Jan. 8, 2003, 06:43 PM
HFSH, those really are tough to fix.
The best I've come up with is to really back up the toe. Demel out the loose wall and put a acrylic band-aid type patch, or a goob, about a inch or two wide, just below the cornary band. Leave lots of open space for it to drain should it get infected. DO NOT COVER UP THE CRACK WITH ACRYLIC!!!!!!!(Please refer to my previous picture of what this acrylic can do when it's not applied properly.) Then a regular shoe with lots of equithane sole pack to relieve the pressure on the wall to the frog and sole surface. You can get the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the wall to grow out, but the bottom 1/2 is real tough. The force of the movment of the wall rips up the horn tubules and it starts to travel up the wall again. Stall rest might do the trick for the last 1/2. If there's another pro out there that has had something actually work, I'd love to hear about it.
Regards J

HossShoer
Jan. 8, 2003, 06:53 PM
slb re your 9.41 pm post.
WOW.
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Regards J.

mwalshe
Jan. 9, 2003, 01:08 AM
My old farrier shod horses with a type of natural trim under the shoes (we rode on the road a lot we needed shoes in front at least most of the time or their feet turned to nubbies) He put St. Croix eventers on them.

He was a genius, I learned an immense amount from him! He had a neat gadget that showed you how the horn tubules grew in relation to the ground, My horses would have pencil marks all over their feet and I would have articles he photo-copied for his clients form various journals and mags in my pocket by the time he was done.

I told ALL my friends and clients about him, and many of them experienced fantastic results with his shoeing. After several trims many horses that had been on and off lame for years and in all manner of fancy shoes (including some from the vet school) were perfectly sound in plain shoes.

The only drawback was that I moved and now I am NEVER happy with any shoeing job I see LOL.

HFSH
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:46 AM
I've had several people recommend putting a shoe on her, and they would put small screws into the wall and "lace" her hoof (like a boot) to prevent the crack from spreading as the hoof naturally grew down. ShossShoer, have you ever done this?

Proud member of the "I Hate Physical Therapy" clique | Auction for Aiden!
YaBB me baby! http://www.hopefulfarm.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

betsyk
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:55 AM
My guy had screws and wires at one point but what really worked was a hose clamp screwed into the wall. I think he put a glob of acrylic over it to keep it from catching on things, and to keep the screw in the hose clamp from becoming tighter or looser. We were backing off the toe tremendously at the same time and he was in handmade shoes that were actually C-shaped. We kept the hose clamp on for several months, until it had grown down to the ground and the hoof above it was uncracked. This was during our bout with WLD so we were working with the farrier at the vet school.

I am happy to report that his beautiful new foot shows no signs of our year of misery. Our new farrier keeps a close eye on a couple of chronic sand cracks in the other foot and, knock on wood, his feet are healthy and sound. So with some effort and intervention, there is hope!

slb
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:58 AM
We had a mare come to us with 3 year old unresolved founder...her feet had been trimmed once or twice after she foundered and never again. She had huge splits (more than one in some) in all four feet...some going all the way to the cornoary. We didn't apply shoes or anything to hold the feet together. Just gave her double doses of vit/min, Forus HF (good in zinc and copper levels) and kept her toes backed up and trimmed often (about 3-4 weeks). Within a few months all there were left were toe cracks and they all grew out with no problem. They were a bear once they got near the ground, but we relieved all pressure from those areas and they didn't give us much trouble.

Saddith
Jan. 9, 2003, 10:59 AM
I thought I would post some feet pics, since I had my camera to take pics of the wierd shoes that my new horse had on.... I couldn't figure out how to get more than one pic on a canvas, so I have to post each one seperately - sorry.

This is the near front hoof by itself.

Saddith
Jan. 9, 2003, 11:00 AM
Here he is, both front feet from the front!

Saddith
Jan. 9, 2003, 11:02 AM
And here is the off side front foot, from the side. Sorry it's dark, I should have lit up the heel area to see the angle!

HossShoer
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:54 PM
Saddith, just a question about your horse's reset. I'm not knocking your farrier's work, just curious if he hot shod your horse? Because the side clips do not appear to be "set into" the hoof wall, just resting on it.
Regards J.

ciscolark
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:21 PM
What do you think of these feet?

ciscolark
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:24 PM
Here is another horse also done by the above farrier. She has natural balance shoes on, and we are gradually trying to shorten the toe and get more heel support. Advice, opinions, please? Thanks!

alsvider
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:48 PM
Feet pictures? I've got feet pictures.. I'd love to hear comments about my guys feet.. he's been to hell & back again with farriers.

alsvider
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:48 PM
Next

alsvider
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:49 PM
Next..

alsvider
Jan. 9, 2003, 07:49 PM
And...

Rebelspi
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:11 PM
SLB... i'm not trying for an argument here, though that seems the way you've taken it. i am merely pointing out that i don't approve of taking a domesticated horse and trimming it like a wild horse. there is no value of that for me. "natural" to a feral horse is not natural to a domestic horse. and the only predator that a feral horse has is man. they are far from a wild horse nowadays, and i don't think can be compared.

a correct trim, in my opinion leaves the heels wide and the pastern angles and heel angles flowing. my horse has huge wide open heels, front and back due to being correctly trimmed and shod by the same blacksmith i've had for 8 years.

everyone is entitled to what they prefer. i prefer to not have my horse trimmed this way. my view as trendy is because everyone is doing it, and 90% of the people doing it don't have a clue in the world what they're doing. if your husband does then more power to him. it's my preference to like and dislike what i choose. i hope you understand, and don't hate me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i will not mention names on the blacksmith at the AFA convention last march, but i will say that he puts down natural trims, and mustang trims. he is highly skilled in what he does, is a Journeyman, and has a list of credentials that i know for a fact that very few blacksmiths have, i leave that number as less than 10. Very less than 10. I trust him, second to my farrier only due to loyalty to my blacksmith, but they learned from the same professor.

creseida
Jan. 9, 2003, 10:07 PM
Just thought I'd check back in here. I have spent the past two days scrutinizing Cressy's feet, after the "dish" was pointed out. I was just beside myself thinking I hadn't noticed such a thing (other than on her left hind where the outside quarter is deformed.) My mare thinks I've developed a foot fetish because I keep coming out and picking up her feet and staring at them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Well, it turns out it was a camera distortion. Her stripes are as straight as can be "in person".

New camera + uncooperative mare = distorted photo.

I'll see if I can post a better photo tomorrow.

As far as making any drastic changes, my farrier has been slowly bringing back the toe...you can see it in the photo. It can't come back much further...just the way she's built. Also, he sees no sense in making a horse lame, especially an older one, by drastically changing angles or chopping off toes when there has been no history of lameness or performance issues in 23 years. In fact, he feels at her age, such drastic changes would *cause* joint problems, and why create a problem where none exists? He says if she were much younger, he'd correct her slight toe-in, but again, she's made it 23 years without a single foot or joint issue. Why risk creating one?

My farrier is a nationally recognised military farrier. I trust him 110%.

slb
Jan. 9, 2003, 10:11 PM
Rebelspi...I agree everyone is entitled to choose what they think is best for their horse/situation. I don't have a problem with that...I would defend that! I also am not looking for an argument...only a discussion on the concepts of "good" feet. Don't worry, I would never hate you or anyone for having a different view...in my mind if there is no different view...we could never learn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't even care to debate our different perspectives of feral horses as I feel that is irrelevant to this discussion. I am only curious as to what the initial post asked...what a good foot is. Since you disagree that the feral and domestic feet that I posted were examples of good feet, I am only seeking to understand what your perspective of a "good" foot is.

So far you have talked about wide open heels and "pastern angles and heel angles flowing". Not sure what you mean by a "flowing" angle. But we certainly agree on a wide open heel.

Do you have some pics or a link of some good feet that we can compare? Or how about you comment on what you precieve as wrong with the feet I posted (other than the one that has underrun heels). I am only interested in learning what you consider should be different from a "natural" type trim and one that you favor. I think that it will be an excellent opportunity here for everyone to learn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mcmIV
Jan. 10, 2003, 06:40 AM
Yes, I am avid watcher of this thread,and like Cresidia - have become obsessed with looking at my horse's feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please post your own opinion with pictures! slb has been bearing the brunt of the educated opinion posting and could probably use a break... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif heheh

No arguements here that I can see. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

FairWeather
Jan. 10, 2003, 06:52 AM
To answer for LisaMarie8--Katrina does not relieve the quarters, he wears that way naturally http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saddith
Jan. 10, 2003, 08:18 AM
HossShoer, sorry didn't see your question.

Yes and no. Yes for the backs (and I posted an answer to the other thread I started) since they are steel. The fronts are aluminum and he did heat them, but as you know, you can't get aluminum too hot or they become brittle. We were discussing that as he was shoeing. I don't remember them smoking like the backs did (and how do you get used to that smell????) but I assume they were warm enough to seal the sole - or else why go to the trouble to heat them?

I wish I had more options for shoeing around here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

HossShoer
Jan. 10, 2003, 10:52 AM
Saddith, Ah yes "THAT SMELL"
Well ya know, it's just part of the business.
The good part is we get really fast service in a restaurant on a damp day.
(Feed 'em and get 'em the H*ll out of here.) LOL
In check out lines at the grocery store or coffee shop, someone usually figures the place is on fire somewhere, or the clerk's computer is about to blow up.
Regards J.

slb
Jan. 10, 2003, 11:38 AM
LOL HS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bensmom
Jan. 11, 2003, 07:31 AM
Wow -- this thread is fascinating! I actually went out and bought a new digital camera yesterday so that I could take pics of the boys feet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Which I will do today. In the meantime, Martha, how do you put the pics into one .jpg? It is much easier to look at them that way and to compare and I'd love to be able to put up the photos and x-rays of Ben's feet side by side.

And, my farrier deals with hoof cracks as someone mentioned earlier but instead of a hose clamp, he is using a small mending plate with two screws into the hoof. On my two horses that had pretty bad cracks, it has worked wonders -- on the little TB monster with the nightmare feet, though he is also backing up the toe and he has on St. Croix Eventers, with the toe rockered and bars added to the back to move the weight bearing surface as much off of the too long toe as possible -- so it may have been a combination of things that so quickly made the crack grow out, rather than up.

I'll try to get pics this afternoon, with the nifty new camera!

Libby (slb -- thanks for the best explanation of the other trim that I've seen yet)

mcmIV
Jan. 11, 2003, 10:38 AM
Libby - I used photoshop. You should have some image editor that will be adequate to put them both on one page.

If you aren't good with image editors, I'll do it for you if you email em ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 12, 2003, 09:31 AM
Here are some of one of my horse's feet.She is a approx. 15 yr old Haflinger/belgian cross. She has been barefoot her entire life, and has NEVER taken a lame step!

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 12, 2003, 09:35 AM
Here is my mare, Mysti, a 15 ish haflinger/belgian. She has been barefoot her whole life and ahs never ever even been off.

mcmIV
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:15 AM
miss captial - you're pictures didn't load! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:50 AM
ARRGGH It is sayign they are too big! How do I resize them?

slb
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:11 PM
What program are you using? You should have a tool that allows you to resize the image. If it is in pixels, consider that 640x480 will fill a low res computer screen...try making them about 250-300, but make sure that if you have to enter 2 dimetions that they are directly proportional...other wise you will distort your picture.

Try right clicking...sometimes you can find a resize thing there. Look under edit or image on the tool bar.

If you can't do it...you can send it to me...but if it was too big to put up, it will probably be too big to send in an email also.

katarine
Jan. 13, 2003, 12:22 PM
My husband's 8 YO QH has a screwy set of forelegs, but a great mind, so we bought him to be a trail horse. He's turned out 24/7, never stocked up or lame.

his hooves Xrayed clean last summer, BTW.

Meanwhile, the horse is growing progressively less heel. The LF hoof heels appear crushed/underrun- the outside heel offers NO support it's so underrun, and the hoof grows a decent amount of outside wall, but VERY little inside wall- there's not much there to nail to, unfortunately. The outside wall is dishing just a little, while the inside wall is pretty much perpendicular to the ground. His frog is a little pinched, too. The whole hoof/leg structure cocks the foot to the inside- if viewed head-on, the pastern cocks to the inside and so does the foot- he's pigeon toed, but only from the fetlock down, and that strain worries me. He has puffy, apply fetlocks, but again- never any soreness or strain. The RF hoof doesn't look or grow 'as bad' - but it too has poor heels and too much toe.

We tried going barefoot two years ago- the moment his shoes were pulled, he was too sore to even walk to water, and when we did get shoes back on him (7-10 days later, after hoping he'd toughen up) he had multiple abcesses in both fore feet.

What suggestions do you have for encouraging heel growth, inside wall, and dealing with the too long toe?

I'll (hopefully) get some pictures this weekend for the group to review. I'm worried he's getting sore- more and more he contemplates for too long before moving off- like he's deciding if it's worth the effort.

What's your point?

slb
Jan. 13, 2003, 01:06 PM
Creseida....sorry, somehow I missed your last post. I think that your farrier is doing a great job. He is correct....if this is an older horse, the best approach is slow. And, as you said, when they have been toed in or out and remain sound, then why change it. They are built that way, and generally there is nothing to be done about it....nor is it ever beneficial.

Glad to here that the dish is a distortion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I hate critiquing pics, becasue of that very reason. The only thing that I would disagree with is that her foot is not made that way....it can be taken back further and needs to be...not much, but a little...I would guess that your farrier is probably doing that though and that she will be correctly balanced soon. Some of the best info that we have on keeping horses sound comes from the military. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb
Jan. 13, 2003, 01:20 PM
Katarine...hmmm, I have a 25 yo QH that resembles this....legs go first one way then the other, toed out, just a mess. However, he is sound and barefoot and has been for several years...my husband began trimming him before he came to live with us. He was a real mess to start with.

He is probably too sore when barefoot because he needs the heel support that the shoes afford. Simply cutting his toes back to where they belong will help in moving the heels back. The other imbalances need to be addressed in a similar manner. Flares are excess growth...it doesn't matter if they are on the side or the toe, they need to be removed. The reason you have a flare is because there is excess pressure from the straight up side opposit it. Commonly this is the cause of flaring...opposite pressure.

Check out Hope for Soundness (http://www.hopeforwoundness.com) for more info on correctly balanced trims. The best stuff is in their tutorial and newsletters. Also, there is a BB there for asking questions of some top notch farriers. They also have a video and will soon be releasing an owner targeted instructional video on correctly balanced trimming.

Perhaps Hoss Shoer will be by to add to this. It will also be helpful when we see your pics. None of this is "just the horse", or "the way nature intended", it is simply an unbalanced foot.

HossShoer
Jan. 13, 2003, 05:18 PM
Katarine, those crooked legs are tough when the foot gets away on ya.
I'm with slb on the toe etc. About the shoes being off, I'm a real big fan of pullin them and turn'em out and close your eyes.
Sure they will abcess a lot, but after awhile you have a foot you can work with. Circulation gets better, and the over all tone of the foot gets healthy.
When I buy OTTB's by the truck load at the end of the racing season, first thing I do is yank off the shoes and turn 'em out in the feed lot. They struggle for a month or so, to just to get from the round bales to the water, but it's amazing how good those feet are after a couple of months.
And low and behold there are a few sound ones.
If those crooked legged horses were out in the wild , nature would look after the problem.
Regards J.

Silver Screen
Jan. 13, 2003, 05:25 PM
Here are a couple pictures of my Thoroughbreds feet. My farrier tells me they are pretty good.

Hind Foot, Aerial view (the white lines are from the hoof pick)
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031134267093239227335.jpg

Hind Feet, Side view
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031134620301556704287.jpg


Front Foot, side view
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031138978127509268894.jpg

What do you guys think???

Silver Screen
Jan. 13, 2003, 06:57 PM
Are these pictures OKAY for a critique or should I go out to the barn and grab some better pictures?

SimplySarah
Jan. 13, 2003, 08:31 PM
This picture isn't the best quality, but the hooves in question are quite perfect.
Bella is a BLM mustang. She is 5 years old. She has never been shod, and has never had to have a trim. Her feet stay in wonderful condition on their own. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

________
Sarah

"Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping."~ Julius Hare

slb
Jan. 13, 2003, 08:35 PM
Alohamora, thanks for posting Bella's feet. Can you tell us about the terrain where she lives and her lifestyle, nutrition, and work?

creseida
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:09 AM
Any thoughts on what caused this?

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

slb
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:53 AM
Most likely an old injury to the area near the hairline that resulted in damage to the corium. This is not uncommon and shouldn't effect soundness...nor can it be fixed. I have a finger nail that looks like that. I injured the part of the finger between the nail and the joint...the bone feels flat right were the nail grows indented. I don't believe that I broke the bone...just severly damaged the area around it. It never looked damaged, but you can feel it.

creseida
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Most likely an old injury to the area near the hairline that resulted in damage to the corium. This is not uncommon and shouldn't effect soundness...nor can it be fixed. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That has been the theory of the various farriers and vets I've asked. The most popular theory is she was stepped on as a baby by her mum. It was this way when I bought her, although it also had a very bad crack in the dent, which has been resolved.

You are right in that it does not affect her soundness, she doesn't lose shoes on this foot or any other (although it looks ugly), and all but one farrier I've spoken with said it couldn't be fixed. The one that said he could... well the "cure" sounded horrific http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif but I was of the opinion that if it ain't broke... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The hoof wall in that area is only half as thick as the hoof wall on the rest of the foot, and yes, there is a flare/dish on the deformed part of the hoof.

I also figured that since we were showing photos of feet, I'd throw out an obviously imperfect foot for others to see. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

HossShoer
Jan. 14, 2003, 04:09 PM
Creseida, This back foot would be a prime candidate for a toe clip in my opinion. Not to knock your guy, but the lateral clip is hammered down into the hoof wall, and almost flat. Why not just grind it off???
If the horse was in hard work with a lot of twisting action on the foot, move the clip forward to the area of the first nail hole.
I think back at the beginning of this thread I talked about toe clips on back feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 04:17 PM
Would someone mind going back and telling me what they think of the two feet pictures (of different horses) that I posted (I think on page 5 and 6)? I would really appreciate it. I also have more pictures if they would be helpful. Thanks!

creseida
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HossShoer:
Creseida, This back foot would be a prime candidate for a toe clip in my opinion. Not to knock your guy, but the lateral clip is hammered down into the hoof wall, and almost flat. Why not just grind it off???
If the horse was in hard work with a lot of twisting action on the foot, move the clip forward to the area of the first nail hole.
I think back at the beginning of this thread I talked about toe clips on back feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi John, Thanks for the suggestion. I know these things are hard to judge from photos. I am a bit of a layman here, but let me see if I can explain why the clip is where it is.

The reason is, if you'll notice, the worst part of the dent is right where the third nail normally would be placed. Since nails placed there tend to fall out almost immediately, or go straight into the crease of the dent, causing a crack to start, my farrier uses the fourth hole. But, as you can see in the photo, the wall there is very thin and there isn't much for the nail to hold onto, and the wall tends to break up a bit. This photo is at 4 weeks since the last farrier visit, and you can see the wall is failing below the last nail. Also, because of the thinness of the wall, and the angle that it grows, the nail cannot go any higher. Note that it is placed lower on the wall than the first two.

Since the last two holes of the shoe are of minimal effectiveness, my farrier puts a little hook on the top of the clip. (Think of how a clinched nail looks, only face it inward) This, in effect, clamps that side of the shoe in place, and assisting the nails to hold the shoe in place.

As to the angle of the clip, yes it does appear almost flat, but that is because the hoof wall flares badly and the clip is following the angle of the wall. But I'm not sure how much help moving the clip forward would provide. The first two nails always stay nice and tight. They do their job just fine; it is behind those nails where the shoe needs extra stability and security.

I hope that makes some kind of sense. I'm not the best at explaining this stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif But I'll toss those ideas by my farrier when I see him next. We're always talking about different shoeing methods and strategies...me asking silly questions and him answering. Fortunately, he LOVES to chat about these things and everything else under the sun, too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

HossShoer
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:41 PM
Creseida, OK how about leaving out the 3 rd & 4 th nails and grind off the clip???? Having the clip down and with a hook on it really bothers me, cause I think it is jabbing into the wall and not really doing any good. Or a gob of acrylic at the bottom of the foot for the clip to rest against????
Interesting case.
Regards J.

HossShoer
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:50 PM
Ciscolark, Hi FWIW they look ok to me. A little difficult to tell. Maybe download Paint Shop Pro or some other picture management software to compress your pictures down to 20,000 Bytes +/-.
What do those feet look like from the bottom???
Regards J.

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:21 PM
Thanks so much for replying about my pictures, I will try to post better ones. First, this is a horse that has good feet and is shod correctly according to my farrier.

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:23 PM
This is the same horse as above from the bottom (the day he was shod). He is the "example" of my farrier's good work.

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:26 PM
This is the horse who has the feet I am most concerned about. She had been barefoot for all of her life and had the best feet any of the farriers I used had ever seen. She came down with some lameness problems last year which have been hard to resolve. After x-rays, we are trying to gradually shorten the toe and build up her heel for support with new balance shoes. I would love any advice on her feet in general as it will only aid me in the development of more comfort for her. Thanks for the responses

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:28 PM
same horse, different picture

ciscolark
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:29 PM
same horse, looking at the foot from the bottom

GrayHorseStudio
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:53 PM
12 year old TB in steel egg-bar with snow pads left front

Kathleen
http://www.grayhorsestudio.com
*member of artist clique
*devout worshipper of the American Thoroughbred
*member of the vertically-gifted clique
*owner of the most expensive "cheap" horse and dog EVER

GrayHorseStudio
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:54 PM
as above, right front

Kathleen
http://www.grayhorsestudio.com
*member of artist clique
*devout worshipper of the American Thoroughbred
*member of the vertically-gifted clique
*owner of the most expensive "cheap" horse and dog EVER

slb
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:08 PM
Ciscolark .....your good example looks quite good. The only thing that I would say is that heel should come back just a little to the widest point of the frog...just before the straight edge of the frog becomes rounded. The bars are nice and straight and the shoe is set back. Overall, I like it....but then who am I http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slb
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:12 PM
Ciscolark...your horse that you are concerned over...looks like a nice job of placing the NB shoe. Notice that the bars are curved....this indicates contracted and/or underrun heels (I think you noted that?). As the foot starts to become more round and heels go to where they belong, you should start to see the bars straighten out. It takes time, but I think your farrier is doing a good job overall. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:20 PM
Silver Screen...a little tough to see everything with those pics, but from here it doesn't look to bad. Heels look like they might be a little forward, but overall looks balanced.

slb
Jan. 15, 2003, 12:53 AM
Here are some feet for you all to critique. HossShoer I would like for you in particular to address these. They are not my horse. After some comments are posted, I will explain who trimmed them.

HossShoer
Jan. 15, 2003, 03:11 PM
slb, gee ya keep some late/early hours there.LOL
The feet look sorta Ok, maybe a little long in the toe. There's enough gunk on 'em to grease a pig. Looks like nail holes at the front. They were nice and high whenever the shoes went on.
OK so which "big name" used him as a demo????
Regards John

slb
Jan. 15, 2003, 05:17 PM
Yep....some late hours HS.

Curious what would you say about the axis...good alignment or broken?

HossShoer
Jan. 15, 2003, 05:43 PM
slb, ok not the best, but not all that bad.I've added a couple of lines, but I think the foot is turned out a bit, so i don't put much weight in the lines.
J.

mwalshe
Jan. 15, 2003, 06:10 PM
slb

I would say that those toes are too long and that the heels are going to become under-run,. Axis not great, horse is standing "behind his feet". I would not be terribly happy if my horse was trimmed this way.

Also why are the nail-holes so high?? If he just got trimmed it looks like the shoer trimmed only the heel area and not the toe at all. Weird.

PS I am not a shoer, just an interested customer!

slb
Jan. 15, 2003, 09:02 PM
Comeon kids....I'm not going to say which pro did this until I get somemore input! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Even if you don't feel that you are knowledgable enough to comment, just say if you like what you see or not and maybe why...just curious about what people think about this type of trim. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

betsyk
Jan. 16, 2003, 12:28 PM
There's something about the way he's standing that doesn't look right to me, but I can't put my finger on it. His cannons don't look perpendicular to the ground, but it may just be the photo. I'm also used to seeing toes rockered (is that the right term?). Overall, the hoof looks short to me. If my guy was trimmed that short I'd be hoping for soft ground and no bruises. Nothing else jumps out and yells at me, though. It's just different from what I'm used to seeing.

mcmIV
Jan. 16, 2003, 01:12 PM
The first thing that jumped at me was the longish looking toes. Ok, wait, the first that jumped out was "oh my gosh! is that blood all over his feet!?"

I assume it's hoof grease or something... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I like his heels, based on what I'm learning... but his toes seem a little long and I fear they would lead to underrun heels.

He is definately standing out in front of himself.... Cannons not perpendicular to the ground, so comparing angles of hoof/pastern isn't really worthwhile, considering he isn't standing under himself.

Oh, I noticed a bit of a dish on the profile there... if it isn't a camera trick. Maybe he has foundered and has more rings in his feet then we can see and that would also account for him standing out in front of himself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Although I doubt it based on what I *can* see....

His right front is toed out... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They do seem short, but I'm not sure that's a big deal if he is a smallish horse and it's appropriate.

La de da....

martha

slb
Jan. 16, 2003, 05:48 PM
Martha....looks like this thread is giving the sunnie/flax clique a run for its money http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I am glad that you started it and glad to see so many interested people. Maybe there should be an "I loff my horse's feet" clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mcmIV
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:04 PM
I know! I'm trying to subtley keep it going... without being obvious. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you going to tell us more about yer mystery horse!?

martha

slb
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:26 PM
OK...I guess no one else wants to comment...this horse is a work in progress (as evidence by the nail holes that haven't grown out), but is nearly done to specs...30 degree hairline, 45 degree toe, heels 3.5 cm from the ground to top of bulb (if I remember correctly). This horse was trimmed by Strasser.

The comment about the nail holes being so high indicating that the toe had little trimming done on it is typical. The attention is to trimming bars, heels, and paring the live sole to create concavity in the rear 2/3 of the foot.

Question is...if some of you didn't really think the horse looked comfortable or correctly trimmed, then why do so many Strasser followers not see this?

HossShoer
Jan. 17, 2003, 04:39 AM
Slb, does that tend to make these horse really stiff and sore through the neck, shoulder and back??????
J. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mcmIV
Jan. 17, 2003, 06:23 AM
Very interesting! Considering I look at Strasser horses everyday, I'm ashamed I didn't put my finger on it. :P

One of the strasser horses at my barn is currently going through a phase where he can't walk on his toes.... I think it's his toes when I picture his gait. His steps are tiny, and he is pretty lame on all four, he won't walk for many steps before he refuses to move.

He was trotting yesterday, somewhat sound, but he reminded me of a founder horse in his gait.

I got my fingers crossed he comes out of this whole strasser thing meeting the expectations of his owners..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I will look at that foot some more....now that I know.

martha

jreventer
Jan. 17, 2003, 08:01 AM
On the mystery horse-I am not too fond of the trim. It looks like the farrier has tried to make the foot level by trimming the heel to match the toe rather than trimming the toe to match the heel-make any sense? I would prefer to see the toe backed up a little. Seems this trim will definately lead to under run heels. Of course, I may be all wrong but that's why I pay a farrier to shoe our horseshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"There are times when you can trust a horse, time when you can't, and times when you have to."

www.boo.riana.com (http://www.boo.riana.com)

slb
Jan. 17, 2003, 07:07 PM
HossShoer...you would think to look at it that there would be muscle soreness issues...but that doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, because many horses were already suffering severe pain with stiffness (either from chronic founder or severely deformed feet), the trimmers note that there is a fast softening and relaxing of the muscles in the shoulder, back, and neck.

Martha...the lameness is common and accepted practice in Strasser trims. It is most likely abscessing...occassionally, it is laminitis, but if that is the case, then it is blamed on the owner as improper management, not the trim. The premis behind accepting abscessing...sometimes as long as a year or more after the trim is initiated...is that the foot is so compromised from shoeing that there is a great deal of necrotic tissue in the foot from a lack of circulation. When the foot functions properly (the result of a Strasser trim), the circulation returns, the damaged and dead tissue is then removed via abscessing. It is noted by the trimmers that this is expected and good for the horse. It is an indication of the foot being returned to optimal form and function....part of the healing process. However, IMO, Strasser doesn't teach about how loss of hoof integrity can result in a damaged corium and thus abscessing. I have asked CHCS about the differences and how they can tell if they are causing the damage or it is part of the healing process...the standard answer was that they would certainly know if they were causing the damage (but they didn't say how) and that they had only encountered this as an expected part of the healing process....even a year or more later.

Jreventer...you raise a good point about "creating" underrun heels with this trim. Many of the DIY trimmers seemed to have difficulting...even after attending several clinics...keeping the heels back where they belong. They would often be starting with underrun heels and couldn't get rid of them, but some actually produced them with this trim. Some would argue that they misapplied the trim, but IMO, some of these people seemed very knowledgable and now that they have changed methods to one more like Natural Balance (backing up the toe) they no longer have difficulting resolving these issues.

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 18, 2003, 10:28 AM
OK, I'll jump. I have 4 horses, but currently only pics of one of their feet. They are all barefoot, including our 3 yr old ottb who had his shoes pulled last week.
Here is my 16 yr old 14.2 hh haflinger cross pony. She has been barefoot her entire life. Never taken a lame step.
Left front:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/60479273/60479322LkuNny

Solar:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/60479273/60479366gjsDcv

both fronts:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/60479273/60479566oOBQiB

She has some darn tough feet, that crack you can see in her left front used to be almost all the way up to the coronary band, it has grown out some. Her feet get occasional chips/breaks. We very nearly put shoes on her this summer, she was having an awful time with getting chunks taken out of her feet, but she is horrendous to have foot work done, she is at the point where she doesnt have to be tranqed anymore, but is still a bit of a monster.

Here she is to compare her body to feet:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/57926340/57926474etNyHM

War Admiral
Jan. 20, 2003, 03:40 PM
Can I play?? Want to see some reealllyy BAAAD feet? Don't get me wrong, I loff my horse, but this is why I do NOT loff his feet.

Feast your eyes....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Left hind.

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

War Admiral
Jan. 20, 2003, 03:42 PM
...Left hind sole... and yes I know about the thrush, it's almost gone!

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

War Admiral
Jan. 20, 2003, 03:45 PM
....And, right front. Not too bad at first glance but - what's wrong w/ this picture? Anyone? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

War Admiral
Jan. 20, 2003, 03:46 PM
...Lastly, RF sole. Mr. Jitterbug was jitterbugging, sorry - and had just peed in the wash rack so I wanted to get it over with, too!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

HossShoer
Jan. 20, 2003, 06:59 PM
Lizviola, Mr. Jitterbug's feet look OK to me.
What don't you like about them????
Any reason for the wedge pad????
Regards John

MissCapitalSplash
Jan. 20, 2003, 07:17 PM
Hosshoer, what do you think of Mysti's feet?

slb
Jan. 20, 2003, 07:27 PM
HS...glad you said it...I thought it was just my poor old eyesight http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

War Admiral
Jan. 20, 2003, 07:36 PM
HossShoer: We are never sure at this end whether there is or is not a small *hole* somewhere in that morass on the LH near the coronet, inside one of the cracks... It seems to come and go periodically... We have also been battling delamination of the hoof wall on that hoof for the better part of a year. I would really like to shoe him behind (there is nothing near me but rocky roads, and he can't get a boot on over the osteophyte) but until we can get the delamination "gone", shoeing is not an option.

The reason for the RF wedge is that the horse has all 4 kinds of ringbone, rated +9, and was +5 lame when I got him. (Yeah, I know, THAT was a genius purchase! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm kidding - he was a rescue) If you run your mouse pointer along the front of the RF hoof in the pic from top to bottom you will "feel" what is not really visible in the pic - the rather large bulge in the hoof where the arthritic changes are taking place. Believe it or not he's actually +1-ish lameness wise nowadays, depending on how close he is to a shoeing, and no vet or farrier has a clue why!

HossShoer
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:45 AM
MissCapitalSplash, Hi, they look really good to me.
They must be really tough. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John

HossShoer
Jan. 21, 2003, 03:12 AM
Lizviola
"We have also been battling delamination of the hoof wall on that hoof for the better part of a year. I would really like to shoe him behind (there is nothing near me but rocky roads, and he can't get a boot on over the osteophyte) but until we can get the delamination "gone", shoeing is not an option."
I have a 12 year old tb g that my 7 year old daughter rides like a pony. Bought him in September from another dealer with a ankle, and abcesses in both front feet and the standard long toe no heel etc. Anyway he came sound, and would never pass a vet in a million years,but we joke he's our $50,000 US children's hunter. With 3 litte girls to keep in horses and ponies ya gotta take what ya can get. LOL. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
His back feet walls have sorta gone to h*ll, but I can still get a shoe on with really high nails,( i put in a small slim nail and it doesn't even come out to clinch). If I get beat on the shoes I was going to go with the quick set equithane as a horseshoe/glue on. I'm hoping that doesn't happen till spring, cause I have 4 corks in each shoe to stay upright on the ice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"The reason for the RF wedge is that the horse has all 4 kinds of ringbone, rated +9, and was +5 lame when I got him. (Yeah, I know, THAT was a genius purchase! I'm kidding - he was a rescue) If you run your mouse pointer along the front of the RF hoof in the pic from top to bottom you will "feel" what is not really visible in the pic - the rather large bulge in the hoof where the arthritic changes are taking place. Believe it or not he's actually +1-ish lameness wise nowadays, depending on how close he is to a shoeing, and no vet or farrier has a clue why!"
Good for you and your team to keep this character soundish and usefull. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
I bet it didn't happen overnight. The only thing I would suggest is a steel wedge on the ground surface of the shoe, instead of the plastic wedge pad.
I find the plastic wedge tends to hammer on the heels, and fold/compress them down.(Similliar to bouncing a basketball type of effect.) I used them for years and then switched and liked the results.
But, hey what the heck do I know. I'm just a blacksmith. LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John

War Admiral
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:52 AM
John - Thanks so much for your kind words! I feel about this guy much the same way you feel about your children's hunter - he has given me a new lease on life and I wouldn't trade him!

Not shoeing over the delamination has been pretty much *my* decision. I worry a lot about the overall integrity of that LH - don't want to cause the poor guy more problems. I've had farriers say that they *could* do it, but nobody says it with any great enthusiasm! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"Steel wedge on ground surface" - do you mean something other than a standard elevated bar shoe? Have tried bar shoes on countless occasions - soundness-wise he really does do better with them. Unfortunately he cannot keep them on longer than 10 days at a time, and it's usually more like 4-5 days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If there is an alternative we haven't thought of I would LOFF details!

We do constantly have probs w/ the heels. It doesn't help that he is one huge dude - 17.2h TB, close on 1400 pounds. Has gone from a size 2 to a size 3 though, so we're at least on the right track...

In my book, there is NO such thing as "just a blacksmith" - this horse wouldn't even be alive right now without guys like you!! I do have a great team - esp. the poor farriers who have on occasion been treated to such spectacles as the horse lying down in his stall and plucking his own shoes off if they are not to his taste!!

Many thanks for taking time to look and comment!

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

slb
Jan. 21, 2003, 11:35 PM
Lizviola...LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
That's great that his feet are a size bigger...something has to be on the right track.

OK, for all that want to see more good feet. Here is what I consider to be a good example of where the heel should be. This is a 7 yo that has never been shod and is generally self trimming. This was in the middle of a touch up trim...but the before pics didn't look much different.

BTW, I don't mean to get carried away with barefeet, but it seems to be where I find good examples and it is easier to point things out without shoes. I also know that this trim can be applied under shoes with the same results. For those who are put off by the talk of "natural" trims, in my husband's words...this isn't "natural", its just what the horse needs to be balanced. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

marta
Jan. 22, 2003, 03:50 AM
slb (or anyone else) -
i posted this separately but got no answers so i thought i'd try this thread.
kipper's front feet wear unevenly. the outside edge wears considerably more than the inside (especially on the right foot). farrier says we might have to put front shoes back on. he also says it's caused by conformation.
BUT someone else at the barn said that it's her hoof wall that's growing at different speed. i have to admit this sounds a little strange to me.
so what do you think? farrier is right? is putting shoes back on the only way to slow this down?

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:42 AM
Coming late to the game- these are pictures of my 9 y/o TB mare, Addie, six weeks after being shod last.

I had a new farrier out (because I moved) and he took about 1/4 inch off her front feet, and was unable to trim her back feet at all because she grew so little hoof. So, in a month he'll put new shoes on her back feet without trimming them, check her front, then he recomends I wait about another two months (for a total of three months) before he does all her feet again.

I did not take pictures after he was done; these are all right before she got new front shoes.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:44 AM
Front left again

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:47 AM
Front right

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:50 AM
Right hind

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:50 AM
Left Hind

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:51 AM
Right Hind sole

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

In The Gate
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:51 AM
Right front sole

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
UC Davis student

Bensmom
Jan. 31, 2003, 10:04 PM
Finally!

Martha has very kindly helped me with her considerable talent and prepared a way cool composite of Ben's feet for critiquing.

Ben is a 9 year old QH that has had just horrid feet. He has a club foot, as well as one foot that was until the last computer balancing terribly broken back, and surprisingly long toe, low heel.

These pictures were taken last night after his reset, and I didn't shoot solar views, because he is poured in front and that seemed sort of pointless http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Especially since I have posted so much about the fabulous success we've had since changing his feet, I am very interested to know what you guys think. I went through and read all the last few pages of posts today, and you guys are GOOD. I've been very impressed.

So, critique away!!

Libby (who thinks Martha is as cool as it gets!)

[This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 01, 2003 at 01:14 AM.]

slb
Jan. 31, 2003, 10:24 PM
BensMom....you must be so happy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
From the sounds of it and what I see in these pics...you must have seen great improvement in a very short time? I would like to hear what you have seen and what has happened from this trim. Has his gait changed? Has his behavior/attitude changed?

slb
Jan. 31, 2003, 10:26 PM
In The Gate....not ignoring you....just don't think there is much to comment on...looks good to me.

slb
Jan. 31, 2003, 10:41 PM
Ohhh....Bensmom...forgot to ask, was the club foot and the LT/LH foot both fronts by any chance?

There was a recent article in the Farrier's Journal about this. The author had looked at over 200 pairs of cadaver feet and concluded that this was common...one foot upright and one lower...and that the underlying coffin bone shapes were also mismatched. He suggested that this comes from horses standing with a particular leading foot while grazing. He also concluded that it is "natural and correct".

On the other hand, presenting this information to some very experienced DIY barefoot trimmers...there was an interesting reply. Many said that yes, their horses strarted that way, but now that they were balanced and correctly aligned, that the horses seemed to stand more with both feet equally weighted, or no longer had a predominating foot when eating.

This raises some interesting questions about if the mismatched feet and coffin bones (which could be resahped over time) that the farrier observed were the result of poor trimming, or if nature intended this. I know that as with any form of artistic endevor, it is not unusual for the artist to be better at drawing or otherwise forming one side of something other the other. I have also noticed similar inconsistancies in farrier work...either in the trims or shoeing applications. Just the differeence if they are standing on the right or left side of the horse.

Anyway...interesting stuff http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Late...too many typos

mcmIV
Feb. 1, 2003, 11:14 AM
Yea! - we see Ben's pictures! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Interesting to note about the coffin bone/club footed progression...

So I was talking to my trainer about Java's underrun heels (which aren't too bad, but could stand a bit more correction). See pictures on page 1. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He said that the fastest and most effective way to fix underrun heels is to cut the heel off so the base of support at the heel is back where it belongs because you cut off the long part of it which grows at an angle forward.

I haven't precisely heard this cut and dry advice yet for this problem. We still want to keep his toes squared back so the breakover is where it belongs, but do you also cut off the long forward heel to bring about a change?

I'm planning to discuss this all with my farrier in a week or so when he comes out for Trim #2 in the pursuit of good feet. I want to be armed with knowledgable ideas!

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb
Feb. 1, 2003, 12:54 PM
OK...going out on a limb here as I am neither a farrier or trimmer. But, here is my understanding of the issue of underrun heels.

I believe that trimming the heels back if they are tall or underrun is key to getting these horses to help "correct" themselves. Either type of heel generally results in some dysfunction in the rear part of the foot and can contribute to navicular syndrome or heel pain. This results in a cycle of not weighting the heel...growing more heel...causing more pain. After a while, you have a "navicular" horse walking on its toes.

The outer hoof capsule needs to be aligned with the coffin bone and excess heel (in any form) causes the hoof capsule to lose that correct alignment. Without addressing the heel, the foot will most likely keep creeping forward. There can be no restructuring of the horn tubules and thus, no correcting the underrun heels.

The object is to get the base of support rearward, under the foot. To do this, many times wedges are applied, but IMO, this often only serves to crush the heels more. Occassionally once the heels are the correct height, wedges do need to be applied short term to help correct alignement. But, they should never be left on long term. Also, frog and bar support is often overlooked in cases like this. If shod, frog and bar support are imperative as ground contact of the frog is key to healing these feet. It doesn't matter how it is done, but it needs to be. The reason is that in horses with underrun heels, sometimes the frog and most generally the digital cushion have lost integrity. This will get worse over time without frog support. Eventually, the frog will prolapse through the shoe in an attempt to touch the ground to support the rear of the foot.

Hope this makes sense http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mcmIV
Feb. 1, 2003, 02:31 PM
Interesting - I'm anxious to have the farrier out again! I notice his frog in the rear seems to be soft and almost sunken in. I need to look more closely - wonder if this is symptomatic.

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb
Feb. 1, 2003, 03:24 PM
Atrophied frogs can occurr for several reasons. Disease is one....thrush and deep seated thrush (which doesn't smell or look bad, because it is inside, but causes deteriation fo the frog. Additionally, contracted or underrun heels certainly add to the problem. Often, the old saying..."you lose what you don't use" comes into play...if the horse was shod for a long time and the frog didn't have ground contact or support, then this is a primary cause. The frog needs to "work" to attain optimal form and function. Additionally, if the digital cushion is greatly damaged from contracted/underrun heels, then the frog may become very robust to "replace" what is lacking in the digital cushion. This may look healthy, but actually isn't...the interior of the frog will not be comprised of correctly structed material.

creseida
Feb. 1, 2003, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HossShoer:
Creseida, This back foot would be a prime candidate for a toe clip in my opinion. Not to knock your guy, but the lateral clip is hammered down into the hoof wall, and almost flat. Why not just grind it off???
If the horse was in hard work with a lot of twisting action on the foot, move the clip forward to the area of the first nail hole.
I think back at the beginning of this thread I talked about toe clips on back feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi John,
Sorry so late in replying...I have a question (ok more than one)

Can you explain your reasoning on why a toe clip would be beneficial behind, especially in this case? How would that keep the shoe from twisting sideways, which is why this particular horse wears clips in the first place. Thanks!

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans Rock* clique~

HossShoer
Feb. 2, 2003, 12:23 PM
Creseida, if I recall the picture correctly, the lateral quarter clip wasn't doing anything, except laying down flat. Just a suggestion to draw a toe clip and burn it into the toe to just give the shoe a little more stability.
Just what is this horse doing for a living????
How corked up is it????
Regards John

creseida
Feb. 2, 2003, 01:48 PM
Right now she's not doing anything except standing in 2" of mud over frozen ground. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif We've gone from drought and 100 degree temps directly into foot deep mud and 40 degree temps, to frozen craters and 15 degree temps. Haven't ridden her in a month; just not safe (or kind) to ride her

She is a retired 3-day horse, and we still do through all the motions; dressage, jumping and field work. She just doesn't compete anymore, and she doesn't jump over 2'6" anymore. She is 23 years old.

I'm not sure what you mean by "corked up".

As far as the clip, it is in the hoof wall, it is just that there is more angle to that section of wall, so the clip is banged in to conform to the wall. It really isn't flat; more like a 50 degree angle /

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans Rock* clique~

HossShoer
Feb. 2, 2003, 03:40 PM
Wow, nice weather ya got there.
Why does she have shoes on???
By corked up I mean calks to keep her from slipping. Big, small or none.
Does your farrier hot fit her???
With all that mud it must be rough just keeping the shoes on.
I hate spring for that reason. Most of the time I really tighten up the fit till things dry up, then move up a size or two.
Regards John

creseida
Feb. 2, 2003, 06:05 PM
She has shoes because our winters are not normally quite like this. At least it generally doesn't start to get this way until about now, and even so, generally not this bad. The mud doesn't usually get bad until March when things start to thaw out. I usually ride year 'round. So when the farrier was last out, I was still actually planning on riding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Best laid plans.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

She also wears shoes to support the dent in her hind foot and the permanent quarter crack from a nasty coronet band injury in the left fore foot.

As far as traction, she wears plain heels all around. She is not "hot shod" as my farrier makes the shoes "at work" (in the army) and brings them when he comes "after work".

So far the shoes are still nice and tight. I think in 13 years, she's only lost a shoe twice.

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans Rock* clique~

Medievalist
Feb. 2, 2003, 07:13 PM
This is the only pic of my horse's feet that I have. For once in my life, I have been blessed with a horse with good, sound feet. Our farrier is pretty good too. He is standing a little funny in this pic...he must have been eating the bushes ont he other side of the hitching rack http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

March 14th 2003. D(idi)-Day

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Gallop On
Feb. 4, 2003, 06:17 AM
My farrier and I are going to have a long discussion this morning about how the vertical cracks on my guy's front feet will never heal if his toes stay so long. Anyone have any other pictures of good side views with good hoof angles that I can print for the farrier?

HossShoer
Feb. 4, 2003, 07:03 AM
DQ. good question, suggest to your farrier to take a look in the American Farriers JournalSeptember/October, 2002, Volume 28, Number 5.
Brian Gnegy from California has a article about cracks. His suggestion is to back up the foot, use a swelled heel shoe and burn a small hole at the apex of the crack with a 1/4 " diameter Phillips screwdriver. Alot more complicated then this explanation, but I think ya get the point.
Anyone in Ca. have Brian as a farrier?
I got his email address from The AFA and was thinking of asking him to take a look at this thread on the BB and maybe throw in his ideas.
Let me know.
Regards John

Bensmom
Feb. 4, 2003, 01:58 PM
I want to thank you guys for looking at Ben's tootsies and will post pics of the others as soon as I can catch my breath to get it done and hopefully tonight at home, I can answer the couple of questions I saw up there, which will probably lead to more from me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But, in the interest of time, I'll just ask my question that is on my mind today.

The vet said today that when heels are severely underrun the only way to fix it is to get another horse. He was told this by a noted lameness expert. Can this really be true?

What do you guys think?

Libby

slb
Feb. 4, 2003, 02:10 PM
You have to be kidding! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
From my experience, I have seen some of the worst looking feet taken back to good form and function in just a year. This is simply a matter of correct trimming. This is of course a generalization, and I expect that somewhere there is a horse or two that simply can't be fixed...but so far, we haven't found one yet.

HossShoer
Feb. 4, 2003, 05:06 PM
Bensmom, tell ya what, I'll send ya down a wack of money and you follow that vet and lameness expert around and buy up all them poor footed,underrun heals, never gonna save 'em horses, for cash, just ahead of the meat guy.(See if ya can get a few of them thar navicular ones as well.) when you get a trailler load or my money runs out, I'll slip down and pick them up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
What a great business we are in. Experts creating opportunities every time ya turn around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Ya all know what a expert is???
An "ex" is a has been, and a "pert" is a squirt under pressure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Is the heat too much down there or what???
Regards John

HossShoer
Feb. 4, 2003, 05:21 PM
Bensmon, another thing, Just had another look at Ben's feet and they look really good.
The shoeing job looks like a top notch professional job.
And how did Martha set up your pictures???
Thats a great way to present them.
Regards John

slb
Feb. 4, 2003, 05:24 PM
Come on HS....I want in on this too...you can't get all the good deals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HossShoer
Feb. 4, 2003, 05:30 PM
Hey babe, it's a tough world out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
But there's plenty to go around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Regards John

slb
Feb. 4, 2003, 05:30 PM
Hey guys...come on, just a little more to go to catch the sunnie thread. Yuuu can dooo it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bensmom
Feb. 4, 2003, 09:21 PM
Hey guys, we can catch the sunniflax thread!! Especially once you get a look at the problem I'm gonna bring you pics of tomorrow . . .

But, back to my beast. Thanks for the compliments on his feet, and you may be sorry you asked, as this is one of my favorite subjects, but slb asked:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> From the sounds of it and what I see in these pics...you must have seen great improvement in a very short time? I would like to hear what you have seen and what has happened from this trim. Has his gait changed? Has his behavior/attitude changed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the abbreviated version &lt;g&gt; In Fall 2001, I'm tired of this horse not holding an adjustment behind. He has always worn his feet more on the outsides of the hinds, and my farrier had been doing extended heels or trailers and it hadn't fixed it. So, he decides to allow the feet to "be themselves" and bam, I have a real pain problem in his hips. Chiro every four weeks and acupuncture once a week keeps him in work, but he's bucking really badly at the canter.

Make vet appt for soundness check, have both trusted vets present. Basically do throrough clinical exam on hind end. Told that I have a training problem and to teach the horse not to buck. Well, I knew better, so I made a deal. If I could be the first client to get the horse computer balanced, and could do the hinds, I would spend a month spanking him for bucking.

So, next reset, we shoot the x-rays, and hang out at the clinic to see what we've got. Vet offers apology to owner as x-rays showed a very serious "tilt" to hind feet, as well as very broken back axis. Hind feet get fixed with much shorter toe, larger shoe and "lifts" on outsides of feet and YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE the difference in this horse. Amazingly, he improves by leaps and bounds in dressage, he holds adjustments, his canter becomes nice, and most important, he ceases kicking me when I touch his hips! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This horse has been a farrier's nightmare from the get go. I ended up with a young guy that was just getting started, and for five years, he tried really hard on Ben. Ben's feet are too small, and he has a club foot (left fore) is short backed and long legged. He has an incredibly thin sole and thin hoof wall. Horrid feet.

So, for five years the same farrier did him with varying success, but staying mostly sound. In the middle of last year, I switched, not because my guy wasn't doing a good job (but it wasn't great) but because he just quit caring -- I'll put up with a lot in somebody if they are really trying.

New farrier has worked miracles. Ben has moved from a 00 in the club foot to a 1, from a 0 in the rf to a 1 and to 1s behind as well. We hoof balanced him all around in November of last year to check and see where the hinds were, and to go ahead and look at the fronts. Fronts found way LT/LH in the rf and a little too steep in the left front.

Last reset, when those pics were taken both fronts were at 3 inches of toe and at about 53 degrees.

Matched feet. I thought it couldn't be done. At 10 years old you aren't supposed to be able to "fix" a club foot. But, with both feet trimmed to match the angle of the coffin bone, they are pretty much the same.

Cool, huh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He is an awesome mover now, and even more fun to ride. Now if we could just fix the annular ligament as easily http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Actually we think the angle of the rf had something to do with the injury and hope that now that is fixed the ligament will stay good.

And I'll go on to the underrun heels horse first thing in the morning with some questions -- slb you and John have made me feel much better allready -- the horse in question belongs to a delightful young friend of mine and he has been slightly lame for THREE YEARS.

I finally got permission to start the reinvestigation into why today and spent a long time with their vet (we haven't done any looking at him for about 18 months) When we pulled his bell boots off and I saw his feet, I was FURIOUS. A master farrier does him, and I have to tell you that when I saw how bad his feet looked, I was very angry that a chronically lame horse has been given no more attention than that.

My campaign is now to fix this horse's feet, and hopefully to work with the vet to find out why he is lame and to develop a management plan. This horse is only 13 -- can you guys help me figure this one out?

I'll take pics tomorrow and post details . . .

Thanks,

Libby

Bensmom
Feb. 4, 2003, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmom, tell ya what, I'll send ya down a wack of money and you follow that vet and lameness expert around and buy up all them poor footed,underrun heals, never gonna save 'em horses, for cash, just ahead of the meat guy.(See if ya can get a few of them thar navicular ones as well.) when you get a trailler load or my money runs out, I'll slip down and pick them up.
What a great business we are in. Experts creating opportunities every time ya turn around.
Ya all know what a expert is???
An "ex" is a has been, and a "pert" is a squirt under pressure.
Is the heat too much down there or what???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, just because it was 70 degrees here today you think we are losing it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Its back down to freezing now, so maybe we'll come back to our senses! I love this description. The vet that reported this looked sceptical, but said the "expert" never would answer the question of how to fix it. I'll take him your answers when you know the details on this one -- I've now decided seeing that this horse of my friend's gets fixed or managed soundly is my new personal mission!

and:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmon, another thing, Just had another look at Ben's feet and they look really good.
The shoeing job looks like a top notch professional job.
And how did Martha set up your pictures???
Thats a great way to present them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll be printing this for my farrier tomorrow, as he is due to come out and shoe the little monster (that would be my 6 year old TB whose bad shoeing in the past caused one bow and one fetlock with DJD, but I digress) He'll be thrilled http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And Martha set the pics up with her brilliance!! I think she used photoshop to do it, but I know she was exploring other ideas -- Martha are you up to doing a couple of more horses for me? I'll get Buzz's pics after reset tomorrow and then the lame horse at least on front feet tomorrow.

This is an incredibly informative thread!!

Libby (who will also be printing the info about underrun heels and frog weight bearing for my friend.)

slb
Feb. 4, 2003, 09:45 PM
Bensmom...this is too good....I love this thread...I for one, will be looking forward to more pics. Wish more people would participate.

Waiting for pics (hurry)....
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

HossShoer
Feb. 5, 2003, 04:17 AM
Bensmom, thank you for writing up Ben's story. I love hearing about the tricky ones that finally get working sound.
Regards John

mcmIV
Feb. 5, 2003, 06:47 AM
Sure thing Libby! Anything to beat the sunnieflax thread! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am trying to get my farrier out this weekend for Trim #2. Pictures will follow if they're looking different. Let's hope!

Java told his Animal Communicator (which is mostly entertainment for me, although its hard not to take her accurate findings seriously!)..... he *hates* his new rear shoes and wants them off. (she didnt know he had been barefoot for months and just got rear shoes)

He said if I won't remove them for him he will remove them himself. He considers himself crafty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif HAH! He also said his friend the farrier would agree that they are *not necessary*. I agreed to ask to farrier his opinion but no deals were made. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pretty funny.

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom
Feb. 5, 2003, 06:50 AM
Hey, you guys are great. There are people that start slipping away when I start talking about Ben's feet, and have flat passed out when I start on the little monster's feet story. I will go there tomorrow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, for the lame horse one:

This is a 13 year old QH who has been chronically lame for 3 years. Was acute at first, got better on joint stuff for a while, was sound under light flatwork, started back over low jumps, lameness came back, but was still intermittant.

Diagnostics: Treated as a stone bruise for a long time, then finally x-rayed, no changes at all on x-ray. Went finally to Ocala when local vets stumped. Horse was barely lame enough to block -- vets there decided it was DJD in the coffin joint. Coffin joint injected with HA and Steroid. No improvement. Adequan series done with no improvement. When lameness came back last year, we injected coffin joint again, no improvement. Diagnostics were on the slim side then because of monetary considerations.

Horse went back to light work in December and everyone has been holding our collective breath. The only lameness was when he pulled a shoe recently. He went back to work after that and was lame on Monday.

At this point, owner has a big credit balance with a different vet in preparation for finally trying to find the problem. I called the vet (this horse is one in my boarding group at this barn -- I'm not really the manager -- i.e. they don't pay me board, but I buy the hay, bedding, feed etc. for this family's horses along with my own) and said "we got a horse finally lame enough to block, let's get started."

Now, this family, while nice and in horses for years, doesn't really have a clue on technical stuff, so I finally have asked to please let me help. I haven't touched the issue of his feet, though, because they have used the same farrier for years, and he is well respected, but utterly uninterested in change, and really hates for clients, or nosy clients of other farriers (me) to even ask questions.

I have just picked up this family's other horse and brought it home -- daughter has been living in MD, and shipped horse home ahead of her move. I was asked to get her feet done before daughter comes home. Their farrier doesn't do horses that might be difficult, so they let me ask my excellent farrier to do her, so the vet and I conferenced on her feet on Sunday, and my guy is going to do her.

When the same vet pulled the bell boots off of the lame horse yesterday, he referenced that conversation and just kind of pointed to this horse's feet. I was mortified.

Horse has really badly underrun heels, his feet look almost a size smaller than they used to, the wedge pads have crushed the underrun heels, and his weight bearing surface has slid way forward. The right front foot, in fact, is now more narrow and contracted, not a "club" foot, because the heel isn't long and upright, but the front has the same appearance as Ben's club foot used to.

I'd like to see him with some changes, and I'll take pictures of his front feet today and post those tomorrow for your opinions. I don't want to insist that they switch farriers, because it is possible that this one might make requested changes, but it isn't going to be easy. I'd love to see this horse in poured pads -- to reduce concussion if it is DJD of the coffin joint, and to spread weight bearing over the foot.

The vets blocks yesterday were only partially conclusive. We got 50% improvement with just the coffin joint blocked, 60% with more of the foot, and 80% with the whole foot. We are going to wait a couple of days and block just the pastern joint to see what we get.

There has to be some way to help this horse. I did tell his owner that there probably isn't a "cure" for what's wrong with him, but I can damn sure work on a way, through shoeing and palliative care to manage this problem where he doesn't have to retire. There has to be a way -- right? Keeping in mind that he is only barely lame as it is, but I just know somewhere there's an answer . . .

I'll put up pics of him and Buzzy tomorrow!

Thanks for any input!

Libby & Bear, who's tired of being lame

[This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 06, 2003 at 08:14 AM.]

slb
Feb. 5, 2003, 07:41 AM
Libby, has anyone checked to see if this horse is sore in the upper body...specifically the should, hip, or back area? IMO, this crushing of the heels that you see, is typical of what happens when wedges are improperly applied. I also think that wedges should be for theraputic application only...that would mean short term to help the foot correct itself, but any horse that needs them long term needs their feet evaluated or a new farrier.

Can you watch how he walks...does he land toe or heel first, or does he land flat. Also, does he fully weight his heels when he lands/stands? Not sure you can spot this.

I would say you are right...reducing concussion would be the first thing. Either some sort of pad, or rubber shoes with metal cores.

If he is in full pads, did anyone evaluate for problems like thrush, deep seated thursh, or white line disease? IMO, vets rarely look at the full spectrum of things that might be wrong with the feet.

If he has DJD in the coffin bone, then I wonder if he has an alignment problem...apart from the obvious...broken axis maybe? Or, what is the spacial alignment of the coffin bone? Does is sit tilted up or down, or is it more ground parallel? Also, did anyone inspect the digital cushion for atrophy? This could also be one of his problems.

Wow...it sounds like this poor guy needs a lot of help http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

cassie01
Feb. 5, 2003, 10:01 AM
Sorry, long and rambling post. This is a touchy subject with me right now and I can't type it into a coherent thought http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bensmom - I just wanted to say that your story about Ben's feet gives me some hope for my filly who has a mild club foot. What specific changes did your new farrier make? I didn't read the entire thread - is it in another post?

My vets say that Cassie is not a candidtate for the tendon surgery, that this can be taken care of with proper trimming. Well, long story short I really feel that my farrier has just stopped trying http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif. I had been happy with how he was doing her feet up until about 2 months ago when he left her toe *really* long for some reason. That one trim undid the entire year of progress that we had. When I said something to him about it he told me, 'well, she's two now, there's not much more that can be done for her' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif She went from a point where I was starting to feel very optimistic all the way back to square one (actually, I think it is now worse than we started with) in one trim after he made a big change and he tries to blame it on her turning two!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Am I right to be angry about this???

As I was grooming her the other day, I just sat down in the aisle and stared at her feet for about half an hour (I think our part time help thinks I'm nuts now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). None of her feet are balanced. The RF is clubbed and toes in slightly with a contracted heel (didn't when I bought her as a weanling!!!), the tubules in the LF are not perpendicular to the ground, and both of the hinds are at different angles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Unfortunately, changing farriers isn't an option. I manage the farm and he's the farrier who services us here. I have been unable to find anybody GOOD who will come out to trim just one horse. I am looking for a new job now (other reasons) and hopefully will be able to find one with a good shoer who can help Cassie. Until then, I'm stuck with this guy.

Sorry, just needed to vent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I just feel so helpless - I really wish I knew how to fix this.

mcmIV
Feb. 5, 2003, 10:21 AM
I haven't fully processed the definition of "tubules". How does one know the specific direction these are growing?

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb
Feb. 5, 2003, 10:29 AM
Chin up Cassie...the foot can be reshaped at any time. Most club feet are created...generally start by a baby that doesn't want to weight its heels for a variety of reasons. It can almost always be corrected by trimming. Check out the Hope for Soundness (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) web site. There is a trimming tutorial as well as a newsletter that gives some good pointers. They also have a couple of tapes...a new one that should be available soon is made for DIY barefoot trimmers. They also have a list of recommended farriers...maybe one is in your area. I know some of the people on their list and if they are all as talented as those, then any one of them should be able to help.

cassie01
Feb. 5, 2003, 01:26 PM
slb - thank you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I had looked at that site previously, but they didn't have the tutorial posted then. I'll sit down tonight when I have more time and read the whole thing.

I'm just frustrated that she had been progressing so well then in one trim was set so far back. When I asked, the farrier could not give me a good reason why he trimmed her differently. The only straight answer I could get out of him was that - she's two now and this is the way she's going to be - line. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I've also been increasingly unhappy with how he's been shoeing the horses I care for here. The farm owner actually made a comment last time because he left her precious old gelding with feet that were 4 different lengths and 4 different angles.

I'll have to see if I can get to use the digital camera to take some photos. I'd be interested in what you all think of some of these hooves.

martha - I'm probably using the wrong term http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but what I'm looking at is the "grain" of her hoof. From what I've read and been taught, the "grain" should be completely perpendicular to the ground. Cassie's LF is deffinitely not perpendicular - from the top to bottom it is angled from inside to outside. I'm sure somebody who knows more will answer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lisamarie8
Feb. 5, 2003, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Bensmom...this is too good....I love this thread...I for one, will be looking forward to more pics. Wish more people would participate.

Waiting for pics (hurry)....
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I have the ponies in my back yard, I will innundate you with pics! Since I leave before light and get home right at dusk, it will be this weekend, but I'll take a bunch!

wheeeeeeeeeeee!

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

slb
Feb. 5, 2003, 03:16 PM
Great Lisamarie....we will be waiting for your pics! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb
Feb. 5, 2003, 05:25 PM
Martha...here are some pics to compare. While you can't really see the tubules (they are microsocpic) the striations or "grain" on the outside of the hoof wall indicate the direction that they are growing.

The top pic is a foot that has good direction to the growth. Note that the "tubules" are parallel to each other...the heel lines are parallel to the toe lines. The tubules are aligned along lines of weight-bearing stress.

The bottom pic is a foot that has underrun heels. The tubules in the heel are not parallel to the ones in the toe....they are growing forward and not down. This results in a weakened heel with structure not growing in the direction of weight-bearing stress. You can also note on this pic (see arrow) that where the unnatural loading of the hoof wall occurs, that is where there is distortion resulting in flares and quarter cracks.

[credit: Color Atlas of the Horse's Foot, C. Pollitt, 1995]

Here is a link to further understand the microsocpic view and the value of quality horn growth: Hoof Care Study (https://www.lifedatalabs.com/navigation.asp?pathIDs=22,34,36&selectedID=36)

And here is a good article on what happens when there is a long toe/underrun heel: The Natural Angle (http://www.naturalangle.com/feature/2002nov.html)

mcmIV
Feb. 5, 2003, 06:22 PM
Ahh..... I see. Now Cassie said that she thought they should be growing perpendicular to the ground. Is this right? It seems to me like they should be growing at the same angle the pastern is...sort of like the hoof angle should match the pastern.....

Is that right? I will observe tubules tomorrow at the barn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb
Feb. 5, 2003, 06:52 PM
I think that the confusion might lie in what is typically depicted in illustrations verses what is seen in photos. In illustrations, typically the tubules are drawn straight up and down...perpendicular to the ground plane. However, you are correct, they should more closely resemble the angle of the pastern...but we don't wnat to get to carried away with that either because the pastern angle is a variable...not a fixed structure...and can be changed as a result of changes in hoof form and alignment. I think that if they were growing perpendicular to the ground, then that would most likely be more like a club or coon foot...while the more oval the foot becomes (as evidenced in LT/LH or underrun heels) the more parallel to the ground they become.

cassie01
Feb. 6, 2003, 03:13 AM
Ooops, should have been more specific again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Perpendicular to the ground as viewed from the front, not from the side

mcmIV
Feb. 6, 2003, 06:30 AM
Ahh yes, excellent clarification!

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom
Feb. 6, 2003, 12:40 PM
Martha is soooo cool!!

She made me two new composites of feet -- I love being able to see them like this.

First, I'll post Bear. This is the horse that has been lame for about 3 years. The vet shot films of his feet today to compare to the ones we had.

Bensmom
Feb. 6, 2003, 12:45 PM
And, next, I'll post my little TB's feet. He has a bowed tendon on the left front, and an arthritic fetlock on the right, both I believe from having his feet with waaayy too long toes and no support behind long pasterns.

In order to work on his angles on the front feet, my terrific farrier built him some steel wedge bars that give him the correct angle without crushing the heels. Let me know what you guys think . . .

(edited to say that I'm working on getting the pic up -- help, Martha, it says its too big!)

[This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 06, 2003 at 04:00 PM.]

mcmIV
Feb. 6, 2003, 01:46 PM
Erm! UH OH.. HOld on!

HOLD ON AGAIN. Jeez... Ben's pics were like 389K! This should work. :P hrmph.

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

mcmIV
Feb. 6, 2003, 01:54 PM
OK, so my question about Buzz -

It seems like his angles/heel legnth are different left to right. However, it's almost like the front and back match each other, just not left to right....

does that make sense? Is this my imagination?

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom
Feb. 6, 2003, 01:55 PM
Martha! You are a genius! (I think I shrunk Ben's feet pics a tiny bit at home -- I don't have that software on this computer, but you fixed it!)

Oh-kay, people! We can catch the sunniflax thread. You've got two new sets of pics.

Discuss. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby (thanks guys, this is great stuff!)

Bensmom
Feb. 6, 2003, 01:57 PM
Hmm -- I don't know that I've ever noticed a big discrepancy between the fronts in real life. I'll run out there now and check and maybe re-shoot those feet -- it might have been the camera angle?

Good eye!

Libby

betsyk
Feb. 6, 2003, 02:23 PM
The one thing I notice right away is that both horses' coronary bands aren't parallel to the ground - from the front view, both left fronts, and Bear's right front, are high to the inside. You can tell that Buzz is more sore on his left front because his right front is bigger and more splayed. I'd love to see what their soles look like. I'd be willing to bet that Bear's frogs point in towards midline a bit.

I work with a therapeutic riding program and we get a lot of horses with various minor lamenesses and feet that need work. It's fun to look at what we get when they walk off the trailer and predict where they're sore from the way their feet have adapted to their owies. It's also fun to see how much they can improve once their feet get back in shape. Let's hope you have the same sort of luck with your boys.

We should post follow-ups to this thread in about a year so we can see some of these guys with heels!

slb
Feb. 6, 2003, 03:06 PM
OK...let's get this show on the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bensmom...is the medial lateral balance off on Bear or is it just the pic...that's the foot when viewed from the front...is the hairline parallel to the ground or does it tilt?

Opps...sorry got sidetracked and took a long time to post...betsyk posted the same question.

Bensmom
Feb. 6, 2003, 08:47 PM
Okay, it was raining so hard I didn't get to take any more pictures, but I will check the medial/lateral balance tomorrow. I hadn't noticed just how bad Bear's was -- his foot is shaved there for the coffin joint block, so it is really apparent. I have noticed that the picture distorts somewhat, so I'll check in real life and see what we've got.

One thing we have is a diagnoses on him now.

It is still tentative and we aren't sure how advanced it is, but the vet has diagnosed Navicular.

So, with that in mind, take a look at his shoeing job, keeping in mind that the farrier didn't know he was Navicular and tell me what you'd change. This is the set of pics that just has the front feet.

Thanks!

Libby

slb
Feb. 6, 2003, 09:54 PM
OK...you should know my disclaimer by now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is Bear...right?
No wonder he came back with a navicular diagnosis.

His toes are way too long resulting in the foot being too far forward in general. Heels, of course, are underrun. Pads are probably hindering...crushing...rather than helping. I'm guessing that he is contracted in the heels and that if we saw his whole leg, he has a broken axis...that's probably why he is in wedges.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Are you looking for optimal treatment (= $$) or are you looking for pointers to get this done economically? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bensmom
Feb. 7, 2003, 05:35 AM
(arrghhh, I managed to lose my whole reply!)

The answer to fixing it as far as $$ is concerned is somewhere in between? He isn't going to continue trying to be a showhorse, but they would like to get him sound and comfortable enough for the older daughter to teach a few lessons on and to perhaps be 1/2 leased to someone to do small local stuff. He will remain in my care, though, since Buzz irritates every other horse he's been out with until they beat him up. Bear is his best friend. (See pic below)

We are supposed to take him Monday for another procedure that involves injecting dye to get a better handle on exactly what's wrong with him. The vet wants to meditate on the shoeing changes, but you can bet there will be some -- he wasn't happy and says the left foot is worse with the heels underrun. He shot the x-rays of that foot as well, just to see how bad the axis is.

The lameness is pretty slight -- not even lame enough for the vet to block yesterday, so the vet thinks that with good management, he can continue to have a useful life.

So, since John wanted me to throw a few navicular horses on the trailer with the underrun heels, there must be a good way to fix horses like this -- so what would you do?

Also what do y'all think of Buzz's wedge shoes - the design of which is to encourage the heel to grow down enough that the wedge would be no longer necessary. You can see 'em a little from the side, and I'll try to get solar views today if the rain stops.

Thanks!

Libby

Bensmom
Feb. 7, 2003, 05:55 AM
Betsy -- that is a very interesting observation about Buzz's soreness. He is actually more sore right front lately because that is where his djd is in his fetlock. But, the left is where the bowed tendon is and though it was done some time ago, I guess we'd still see the effects of him carrying the weight on the other leg in the hoof as it grows out. Interesting.

This pic is right after I got him a year ago.

mcmIV
Feb. 7, 2003, 06:46 AM
Hmm.. we had a mare diagnosed navicular. As a 5 year old she was schooling 4' courses and competing on the A circuit and as a 6 year old she was dead lame.

Hindsight is 20/20, right?

Well.... some stupid vet called it "pedalostitis", give her isoxoprin.

She remained lame for months, maybe years before we met our vet of today. He found that chiropractically she had a real twisty pelvis and of course that could blamed on being jumped hard as a youngster.

On top of that she had underrun heels, really bad ones.

After more years of nerve blocks, lameness exams, supplements and meds, she was finally diagnosed with navicular syndrome. Clean xrays, but all the symptoms were met.

Maybe if we had been more knowledgeable and had a better farrier it could have been fixed while she was still young! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Shes now like 20, and retired on a farm with 2 sheep and 4 goats and a lot of chickens. She's pretty happy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We had her nerved at least once. She was a beginner lesson horse, and leased to many a small pony-clubber. The nerving really seemed to help alleviate some of her ouchies.

I think navicular is mostly manageable and maybe even reversable - it is a "syndrome" not an "end". I hope Bear is ok. :/

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Hilary
Feb. 7, 2003, 11:13 AM
Finally I have pictures and got them scanned of Clancy's feet.

They were taken about 1 week after he'd had them pulled for winter. Usually he goes in rocker toes in front, and I posted way back about my hind clip issues.

He's a 17h TB, and knock on wood he is sound.

I'll start with the front view of the fronts. The cracks start at the coronary band, one he's "always" had, and the other appeared shortly after he hit a jump rail (I noticed paint on the corornary band).

Hilary
Feb. 7, 2003, 11:16 AM
Here are the side views of both front feet - I could not get him to stand on any board other than this one, which slopes down. So his left front doesn't REALLY poind downward.

Hilary
Feb. 7, 2003, 11:18 AM
And the hind feet -

He travels very close behind (don't know if that has anything to do with feet) and his sacrum can get out of whack causing a weaker left side when he's in need of a chiro visit.

Hilary
Feb. 7, 2003, 11:19 AM
and finally, the left hind...

slb
Feb. 7, 2003, 08:23 PM
Bensmom...got lucky...hubby doesn't usually do this, but he actually sat down and discussed Buzz's feet with me. So, here's a professional's suggestions and not my lamea$$ guesstimates http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

We discussed the hair line and why it does what it does. He suggested that it buldges up because the foot only makes contact with the shoe in the quaters. He said this is typical of a cold sets comparted to hot sets...too much contact in some areas and none in others. Additionally, he said this is the type of problem that you can pull the shoe, trim a little, wait a while (20-60 min) and the foot will already be reformed to get a better looking hairline. Then he said trim again and it will be nearly perfect. He also suggested that this was the type of problem that you could pull the shoes and let the horse fix itself...in a year his feet will be great with just minor adjustments in the meantime to avoid overgrowth in problem areas.

Now, for Bear....he didn't spend as much time looking at his feet, but here were his suggestions: That wedges were needed...but he doesn't typically use wedges, so he would put a bar across the spand of the heels or bolts on the bottom of the shoes. Then he would slowly take them down as the heel came into postion. He would just move the toe back as far as possible and keep trimming the heels back until they were in correct position. He does this nearly the same as can be found in Ovnicek's tutorial. at www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) .

Hope this helps http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bensmom
Feb. 7, 2003, 09:29 PM
slb -- are you kidding?! This is GREAT!!

Tell hubby thank you, but of course, I have a question. Buzzy is hot set, not cold. At least on the front feet, I think the rears may have been cold set last time. But we were standing in the warmth of the forge looking at the same book you posted pics from as the front shoes heated up. Does that change why he thinks the hairline is funky?

He will be reset behind tomorrow, since we messed up the hind foot balance on Wednesday, and I'm going to look at that hairline much more closely.

I'll be printing some more info for Bear's people -- my farrier agrees with your hubby -- not pads, but he would build the same type of shoe that Buzz has to wedge him up instead. Buzz has a steel bar welded to the back of St. Croix Eventers with approx 2 degrees of wedge applied to build it up on the bottom of the bar. Heels are unencumbered, and appear to be growing down to meet the shoe as planned -- is that the kind of thing he'd use for Bear?

Thanks a million!

Libby

Bensmom
Feb. 7, 2003, 09:36 PM
Hilary, keeping in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about . . .

It may be because I almost never see my boyz without shoes anymore, but I would venture a guess that perhaps Clancy has a tad bit too much toe in front, and I would prefer to see heels back a little farther, but it isnt' near as bad as Bear .. .

On his hind feet, if he is having his sacrum go out, I'd look hard at his medial/lateral balance. I don't know enough to look at his hind feet and state that he is probably carrying an unequal distribution of weight on the outsides of the hind feet. I've gone on and on about what a revelation finding that imbalance was for Ben and how much it is helped him -- there are several threads that I give my testimonial to the computer balancing stuff, but I'd take a hard look at that.

The dead giveaway that you *could* see on Ben was that when he was stood up in the aisle, more or less "square" he stood with his feet turned out like a ballet dancer, though he didn't really technically "toe out" Now we know, and when you trim the insides of his feet to make the medial/lateral balance balanced, he stands not straight, as that isn't correct either, but in line with his stifles, which is much straighter than he was, but not under his body completely. Interestingly, I read somewhere that at each shift upward in gear, the horse travels more under his body, so that if at rest, he was completely straight, at the gallop, he'd be interfering like crazy. Anyone else heard this?

Now, some of you know waaaay more than me -- what do you see?

Libby (who is beginning to think that the only place I don't see underrun heels is on Ben's clubfoot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

slb
Feb. 7, 2003, 10:25 PM
Bensmom...no, it doesn't make sense, but it also doesn't make any difference if it is hot or cold set...just generally, if hot set, the wall is burned to match the shoe so there aren't parts that touch and parts that don't....does that make sense?

In Buzz's case...the toe and quarters are basically weight bearing, while the heel and corners of the toe are not. This basically is the opposite of what is normally weight bearing...that is why the hairline buldges in the front and quarters. Look at some of the better feet I posted and see how the hairline is always generally straight looking, without buldges.

What you are describing for Bear sounds much like what hubby would do. He uses a lot of St. Croix and NB shoes.

Hang in there...this will take a while, but next year, all will be much better. Do keep us updated with pics so we can track progress.

Hilary
Feb. 9, 2003, 06:21 AM
Libby - I think you're exactly right about him having too much toe. My farrier is working on this with the rocker toes, and not trying too much too fast. When he's shod (even without the rockers) his feet don't look so toe-long. But that's the first thing to look off when he's in need of shoes.

I've wondered the same thing about the sacrum/hip issue and the hind feet, except that he injured his sacrum in an accident -slipped and split his hind legs (OUCH!) about 4 years ago. He was given some time off and some anti-inflammitories and then back to work. He needs to get adjusted 2-3 time a year and I can tell when he's "out" because his left hind seems weaker. He also has a huge hunter's bump. The vets/chiros/dressage folks can all tell he has an old injury by the way he moves.

I guess I would worry about ajusting the feet, when they may be caused the the higher-up problem but they do look very off-balance and will this eventually cause problems of it's own.

Any ideas about the cracks in front? His feet all around are very succeptible to coronary band dings - the horizontal cracks in the hind feet start up top. ON the plus side, I can see how his feet are growing by the downward progress of these flaws...

slb
Feb. 9, 2003, 10:56 AM
Hilary,
Cracks are generally from imbalances or lever action from too long a toe or flares (same thing). However, I am not as familiar with cracks like this that grow down from the coronary...generally that is more indicative of coronary band injury resulting in poor horn quality in that area.

Yes, years of imbalanced feet can/will eventually show up as lameness or upper body problems. I'm guessing that even though it is evident that an injury caused his current upper body alignment problems, that if his feet were correctly balanced and aligned, that you wouldn't need as much realignment work done on his upper body.

How often are his feet done? It seems from your description that he may grow excess toe? Perhaps you could do a little rasping in between farrier visits to keep him trimmed back. Also, if he is growing toe and no heel, then there could be other issues besides the imbalances.

His heels look a little underrun and it looks like the M/L balance is off. I hate to ask this from pics, but does he have "bumps" in a couple of places around the top of the coronary band...indicative of ring bone?

Also, he has more than cracks and chips, he has separation of the hoof wall...this could indicate other problems such as white line disease, or poor horn quality.

Natural hi
Feb. 9, 2003, 12:42 PM
This is a product that I use to help all my horse's feet.It is called Winstons 514
www.Winstons514.com (http://www.Winstons514.com) you can read about "fanci" in the testimonials.

slb
Feb. 9, 2003, 01:03 PM
Hey...thanks for the link Natural hi...looks like good products, and an interesting approach with the "bracelets"...I like it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We use a similar product called ShurHoof...it is also only applied to the coronary band and has oils. These types of products seem to be very handy when it comes to those "dehydrated" times of the year. I have seen surface cracks disappear in a few hours with an application to overly dry feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hilary
Feb. 10, 2003, 11:06 AM
Well I went back and looked at those bumps. Yes, they are there, but they've been there a while and he's not sore at all, and when he was vetted 18 months ago his flexions were totally non-reactive, and his X-rays were clean. Doesn't mean things don't change, but I'm pretty sure this is not new.

He toes out badly on that foot, though, from the shoulder.

In this neck of the woods, most horses have more problems with too much moisture in the ground, leading to soft hooves, so my farrier usually does not recomend any sort of oil, but as I mentioned I've started him on keratex hoof hardner. He definitely has poor hoof wall quality. Thin and flexible - so flexible in fact that he polishes his shoes to a miror shine and wears away any hoof growth between shoeings. He's shod every 5-6 weeks March -Nov. and given the winter months barefoot with no real work. Trail rides when the weather permits.

I will have the farrier and chiro talk about making his hind feet more level and how it might affect/be affected by his hip/sacrum issues.

After I had him thoroughly (expensively) vetted with X-rays everywhere, my other older vet eyeballed him up and down and said "well, they've been holding him up this far, they seem to be meeting his needs" or something to that effect. He's 14 this year.