Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!) [Archive] - Page 3

Bensmom

Mar. 22, 2003, 07:18 AM

ACK! Robby, he didn't lose lose the shoes, did he? My farrier's four favorite words are "I found the shoe." Actually, those are his four favorite job related words http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I would love to come play -- but the only place I'll be going until my vacation rolls over mid-year is to Foxhall and you know, we could try to convince you that you need to do Foxhall and Rolex back to back! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree that the photos are not exactly the same, but I can say that at least on the Feb 2003 ones, I'd still finger the lack of support under that boney column as the trigger for the flare up of the mechanical lameness. Like I've said before, I'm not a vet, or a farrier, but until someone can conclusively show me that the lack of support for the boney column does NOT cause or irritate a lot of injuries, I will remain convinced that it does.

This is a fascinating article on why the misalignment of P1/P2/P3 is such a bad thing:

http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/stovall2/phalangeallever.htm

slb -- what do you think of what's said in that one?

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

mcmIV

Mar. 22, 2003, 02:23 PM

I have GOT to sit down and reread a lot of the last few pages here. TOo much good stuff!

Have we talked about differences between inside and outside views of feet ...? In my case, and I need to take pictures, I noticed last night (after 30 minutes of laying on the concrete on my belly examining his feet while he sniffed my hair...) That Java's inside heels are far more underrun then his outside heels all around.

In fact, the height of his feet, seems much higher on the outside then the inside (particularly behind), and I'm inclined to say the outside is correct and the insides are way too short hairline to ground. They look like nubs from the inside view.

I noticed his front shoes... the hoof is growing into the shoe all the way to edge of the shoe on the outside, but there is a good 3/4" of shoe overhanging the inside hoof/heel. The shoe appears to be square and centered across the front, leading me to say his inside heel is 3/4" MORE underrun than the outside.

I need pictures!

Point me to previous comments (I'll do the search with some key words!) or give me some feed back on fixing uneven underrunnedness, etc.... This is worrisome! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and I see on his RF (i need a pic of it too), that he has a bulging crack about an inch long parallel to the ground just below his coronet band well into the hoof part. Wonder what this could be? It's been dirty and mud encrusted, thus I just noticed it when my face was planted 6" from his hoof.

He hasn't been lame, but he is incredibly stoic about this stuff.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb

Mar. 23, 2003, 04:58 AM

Some interesting new stuff here...
I think that while it is sometimes difficult to tell what the shape of the hoof capsule is from pics (dependent on angles and other things), that generally, it is not to diffiuclt to see underrun heels or changes as noted in Robby's horse. While it is difficult to compare the two to get an idea of the extent of the change, it isn't difficult to tell that there was a change.

Bensmom....I agree, excellent article. I don't care for Stovall's attitude toward "natural" trimming, but in essence he is saying that balance and alignement (similar to "natrual" trim methods) are key in keeping horses sound and healthy footed.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Seven

Mar. 23, 2003, 05:08 AM

I have to say....I love this thread, being a fellow hoof nut and bain to my own wonder-farrier....but *SHEESH* PEOPLE!!! I can't keep up with it!! I try and try...but the pages just keep growing and growing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Grrr...more reading to do....

slb

Mar. 23, 2003, 05:10 AM

Martha...good topic! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I just looked as a pic of Java that I downloaded and see what you mean. Although the angle wasn't good enough for me to make any comments, it was evident that you aren't "seeing things".

By definition, this is probably not sheared heels, but it could be the start. This is what my husband calls a "right handed" farrier fault. In other words, the farrier is not as skilled with the knife in one hand as he is in the other. Generally, he simply can't reproduce a symetrical image on the other side of the foot.

Look from the back of the foot and see if the blulbs of the heels are in alignment and symetrical. If not, that is true sheaded heels and generally means that one side of the foot is higher than the other...M/L balance is off, but probably only in the rear of the foot.

Do take some more pics and see if we discover what the problem is.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 23, 2003, 05:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Saddith:
I have a question about Robby's underrun heel.... on the first pic the heel has an almost cracked or flaking look. Like a layer of hoof is growing down from the bulb and stops halfway. Does that make any sense what part I am trying to describe? Anyways, is this common in underrun heels? Because my horse has them, and I couldn't figure out if that was a "symptom" of underrun heels. Are they?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed that too....I can't tell if it is a real crack or just where new hoof wall has grown down overlapping old hoof wall.

A crack wouldn't surprise me...if the heels are underrun, they are most likely to long and therefore causing undo pressure on the quarters. So, the result would be cracking from excess forces.

If it is new wall growing over old, then it could be that he blew out an abscess in tha quarter and lost some hoof wall or had some separation at the cononary.

Either way, it will grow out...but may occur again unless the excess forces are corrected.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Mar. 24, 2003, 06:41 AM

slb -- I noticed that he seemed to be taking "swipes" at natural trimming methods, but was espousing a return to the proper balance of the horse's foot -- would I be correct, or at least along the right path if I were to suppose that the biggest difference in the two "methods" is that the natural trim/natural balance is looking for the clues to that proper alignment in the outside of the foot versus always shoeing to x-rays?

It seems to me that the best "approach" is to get the trim as close to perfect as possible and then to only use shoes for performance and/or correctional modifcations -- i.e. yes, Buzzy's bar wedge shoes are a great addition to keeping him sound, but if his feet aren't trimmed correctly before the shoes are applied, you can forget them helping. Does that make sense?

I've talked lately with lots of vets and farriers, and the idea of the correctly balanced foot transerring the loading/motion forces correctly up the leg, which just makes so much sense to me, seems like a foreign concept to many of the professionals I've talked to. Why? Am I so simplistically educated that I'm making something that is way more complicated that I can see too easy? Or is it actually sort of a foreign concept to these guys?

For example, in Tom Ivers's Bowed Tendon Book, he mentions a filly with a check ligament injury. She'd get trimmed, and race/work fine for about 3-3.5 weeks and then come up lame. If she was trimmed and reset every 3.5 weeks, she'd stay sound, so that is what they did. Buzz will start to have his ankle flare up if he goes more than 4 weeks between trims -- that much toe growth will irritate his DJD in his ankle -- it changes the rotational force just enough -- and he'll start to be sore on it, with inflammation in the joint. My farrier was very reistant to giving me four week resets, but I insisted and the little monster is much better.

I guess what I don't understand is why someone who is pretty good at his craft such as my farrier (slb, I know you have concerns about some of his ideas, but at least he is open and willing to work with me, even if he disagrees, and he's the only one here that will do that) would tell me about another client's horse, who has been having undefined lameness issues, "<grumble, grumble> I don't know why they are computer hoof balancing this horse -- they should get him sound and then try to get his feet perfect."

What did the computer show? That his angle on the lame leg was severely broken back, and he was intermittantly sore in his heels because of it and it was also causing him to be sore in the shoulder. Well, duh. Take my orthotics away and make me walk a couple of miles and my hips and knees will be out, and inflamed. Why do people think horses are different?

Anyway, off soapbox now -- Martha, I'd like to see more pics of Java as well.

Thanks!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 24, 2003, 08:35 AM

Gee Bensmom...hope I pass this test http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think that there are two big differences between "natural" methods and "traditional". One is the word "natural" and the discovery that feral horses and domestic horses have some things in common and therefore shouldn't we look at the "natural" foot to determine what might be optimal form and function...especially since we have not been able to define it since we first started thinking about it around 200 years ago. The second thing is really the opposite of what you are implying, but needs some clarifcation. While the "natural" methods...at least Ovnicek's and a couple of others...seem to look to the outside for landmarks to help determine correct form, those landmarks are really indicating where the coffin bone resides in the foot, as well as some other internal structural details. Traditional methods more often look to the outside to determine how to shape the foot. The important things are addressing angles and getting them parallel with pastern/shoulder angles. We discussed how this doesn't work as those angles are not fixed and subject to change as the foot is correctly or incorrectly aligned. Actually, Ovnicek and others promote the use of x-rays for proper balance and alignment...much in the same manner that your computer program works. However, they never look at external angles. Those fall into place as the foot approaches optimal form.

Yes, you are right on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Getting the underlying trim as correct as possible is the key to any problem. Shoeing then becomes optional...sometimes necessary to facilitate healing, but always optional. Generally, shoes have theraputic value...like a cast does when healing a broken arm. They also have protective value as you noted. And sometimes, they are neccessary for very particular cases that just can't seem to be corrected, but those cases are very rare and generally related to conformational flaws.

For some reason, optimal form creating optimal function does seem to be some strange concept to many professionals. "Why" is the question of the decade. I have no idea. Many farriers argue that they were taught this 20-30 years ago...could it be that schooling has digressed, or understanding of these concepts are no longer "natural". My husband and I talk all the time about how farriery is a fine blend of mechanics, art, and science. I theorize that as we move into a more technical world and rely more on "skilled" professionals to provide services for us, that we have all lost skills and knowledge that our parents and grandparents had...unfortunately that includes some of the skilled professionals. For instance, when I was a kid, nearly everyone I knew fixed their own cars (unless it was a real big problem). Now the cars are so hi-tech that you almost need a degree to change the tires. Other than some teenage boys, I no longer know anyone that can fix their own car...these skills are lost. I think the same is true of farriers and other professionals that rely on their eye, hands, and some mechanical thinking to be good at their professions. They simply seem to have lost the skills, so they come to school to learn what has been taught for decades, but without the "natural" background that their predicesors had befoe them.

As far as vets go...they are given a crash course on the hoof and its workings. At Cornell, the vet students have a one week course in trimming and shoeing taught to them by the farrier students! The only other thing they learn is from a text book...I wonder if they even disect a foot, or if they just see drawings and maybe a prepared sagital section in the lab.

I think you are also right...sometimes way to much thinking goes into all this. If the horse has no problems when first trimmed, and then has a problem a few weeks later...how hard can that be to figure that the foot has changed and that the horse needs to be maintained within a very narrow range of perameters to funtion painfree? This isn't rocket science.

Don't get me wrong Bensmom...I am not that down on your farrier. I may say some harsh things, but I feel that he is doing the best he can to try and gain an understanding and help your horses. We don't all come to the table with the same skills and knowledge...if we did, there would be no discussion and we would stagnate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif But, I hear what you are saying. I know a young farrier that used to apprentice with hubby...he is very knowledgable, thinks out of the box, and has great skill...but he often trims to short (doesn't have to trim so often that way) and is easily swayed into following "short cut" methods that only get him into trouble. His approach would also be to attempt to get the horse sound and then try to get his feet "perfect". They just don't see the connection...maybe it is to simple, maybe there is a lack ofunderstanding of a contenuity between external and interal form and function.

And you are so right...why don't they think of horses like humans? I think that there is mass confusion in the equine world as we move from a livestock mode into a companion/pet mode. I think we have to distance ourselves from livestock in order to justify certain things. But, we don't have that distance with pets. As horses make that transition...or rather we make that transition in our thinking...we are starting to look at them as having the same feelings and problems that humans do...and for the same reasons. Given several more decades, we may just see a change in how professionals view horses....there is definately a change in how owners view them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Robby Johnson

Mar. 24, 2003, 08:53 AM

Of this I am certain - my horse doesn't have any cracks in his feet.

If you are talking about that rather big flaky skin thing - he does wear bell boots 24/7 and it was very wet/muddy then.

Robby

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

slb

Mar. 26, 2003, 09:48 PM

Robby...thanks for the clarification...it was very hard to tell from the pic if it was just a layer of horn or a crack.

Bumping this up as we have new people coming from other boards to look...maybe we will get new pics! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Saddith

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:31 AM

Thanks robby, for clearing that up - my horse has it too, and I was pretty sure that it was hoof growing down from the bulb.

I have another question about farrier ways... mine seems to use a protractor looking instrument to get a toe trim line. What is this instrument and what does it tell him? I am not sure, but he seems to compare it to the other hoof - is this to make sure he is in the ball park for length or angle?

Bensmom

Mar. 27, 2003, 08:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I think that there are two big differences between "natural" methods and "traditional". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I think where I wasn't clear was that I wondered if "natural" methods, and the theory of shoeing to the x-ray revealed angles weren't actually quite similar, rather than comparing "natural" and "traditional" methods. This is what I understood that "natural" methods were doing:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> . While the "natural" methods...at least Ovnicek's and a couple of others...seem to look to the outside for landmarks to help determine correct form, those landmarks are really indicating where the coffin bone resides in the foot, as well as some other internal structural details. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, we really are talking about the same thing -- they, at least the ones you have mentioned, are looking at external landmarks to ascertain the angle of the phalengeal lever, rather than always using x-rays, though as you also point out, some also use x-rays.

What I thought was interesting was that Stovall's article seemed to be negative on all "natural" methods, when at least some are doing exactly what he says is the only way to do a horse's feet -- getting p1/p2/p3 in correct alignment.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> For some reason, optimal form creating optimal function does seem to be some strange concept to many professionals. "Why" is the question of the decade. I have no idea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me either, in fact, I am so frustrated right now, I feel like just giving up. <see below>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Don't get me wrong Bensmom...I am not that down on your farrier. I may say some harsh things, but I feel that he is doing the best he can to try and gain an understanding and help your horses. We don't all come to the table with the same skills and knowledge...if we did, there would be no discussion and we would stagnate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, warning, vent ON. You may not be that down on my farrier, but I'm not happy at the moment. I KNOW I'm not a vet, nor am I a farrier, but I am so darn tired of defending what I *know* to be the right way of caring for my horse I could scream.

He refuses to let go of the idea that since my horse lands outside edge of hoof first on his back feet that he is higher on the outside than on the inside and that the flare on the outside of the hoof also absolutely, without doubt means that he is unbalanced m/l with the outside higher.

This is wrong. I have radiographs that show his p1/p2/p3 tilt to the outside. There is clinical evidence that while he was on stall rest, and I wasn't riding him to catch the difference and he was being trimmed the way the farrier thought was correct, he became totally unable to canter at all, and yet, when he was trimmed in the way I insisted on, he was back able to step under himself. I got down on my hands and knees under the horse yesterday with a measuring tape and made a concerted effort to check, at the same points on the back of the foot, inside and outside, hairline to ground, and he was almost .5 inch higher on the inside of his foot. I can see it with just my naked eye!

He argued with me yesterday, basically in a teasing manner, but with a bite to it, and I can tell he seriously disagrees with me. He had no answer for why all the hard evidence agrees with me, and nothing backs up his opinionn other than he swears absolutely that the edge of the foot that lands first as the horse steps is the higher one and the same thing with a flare -- that it only flares on the side that is higher.

This would be true in an ideal situation, i.e. if the hoof had no bones within it, or above it, causing it to tilt differently and strike unevenly.

If it were just a dispute, and I had the knowledge to tell him precisely what I wanted, it would be one thing. But, it isn't. He really resents the fact that I disagree with him, and it has affected my horse. He wanted to pack his contracted heels in the front with cotton to soak with thrush medication last night -- I know better -- the times we have tried this, he goes lame from any pressure there. But, I was so intimidated that I didn't argue with him. Guess what? He was lame right front. Thrush is an ongoing problem with his problem feet -- as soon as it rains, I have to be very diligent, and since he is poured in front, I don't think to check all that often and I missed it. During the summer I just have to remember to medicate it preventatively and I hadn't started yet.

In addition, for some reason he also ended up lame on the right rear, for which we had no explanation, other than perhaps he was cut too short there in an effort to satisfy my request to lower his inside. The farrier did pull a nail that he didn't like and didn't replace it, so perhaps he quicked him.

I am so frustrated. I cannot switch farriers, as this one is the only one in the area that I have a prayer of getting to do a good job on my horse. At least he has the mechanical skill to do what I need done, and I CAN talk to him, most of the time. The other two in the area that have the skill to do my horse 1) won't take him as he has a reputation for having difficult feet (he has been the subject of the farrier's monthly breakfast meeting more than once) and 2) would never allow me to ask questions/make suggestions, so that would be right out.

Probably the best thing for me to do would be to figure out a way to disprove my farrier's main two assumptions about how the foot lands, and I'm not sure I know how to go about that.

Any ideas?

Libby (who came close to losing it when her horse was sound prior to reset and lame on 2 of 4 feet afterwards. argghhhhhh)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 10:30 AM

Hello everyone. I have just been directed to this thread from the Ultimate Dressage board. After 2 days of reading the posts and looking at the pictures, I have gained a great deal of education.

I have a question if y'all are not too busy.

I have a 1 1/2 year old who just came to Memphis, TN (where it has been WET, WET, WET and muddy) from Denver, CO (where it has been DRY for the last 2 years). What do I need to watch out for as far as hoof problems that can develop.

I have noticed that the frog is softer now than when he first arrived (about 1 1/2 mos ago). I don't see any evidence of thrush or other icky stuff. I am mainly trying to be proactive.

I will post pictures soon. Thanks for your replies. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

slb

Mar. 27, 2003, 11:27 AM

Bensmom...there are almost 50 NB trimmers listed in FL...you should be able to get one to come and help your farrier, or maybe even trim for you. Check out the tech support link/farrier finder on www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com). The other thing you might do is host a clinic and have Ovnicek come and trim your horse and help your farrier learn to do a balanced trim.

I cannot understand how he cannot see that the bones are out of alignment and how to address that. He is clearly trimming to what he sees outside and not what the x-rays indicate is true.

I am guessing that you have a problem similar to my QH mare. She has a not too obvious crooked leg that results in her foot slightly toeing out and then rolling over on the quarter...instead of a flare, she gets the wall to start to roll under...but for the same reason. If she is trimmed every few weeks instead of every few months (geezzz does anybody know a farrier that makes their scheduled appointments http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) she is sound with no imbalances in the foot, but that doesn't generally happen.

It should be obvious that if there is a flare on one side, the forces that cause it come from an opposite side. This is so obvious now...but, I understand your farrier's problem seeing this as I didn't at first either. Geezzz...this was so simple, so clear and I couldn't get past the books to understand it...the books also say that the foot hits on the high side...but that is on a stright leg! I have two crooked legged horses...but you can't see it, so most farriers cannot balance them. But, hubby holds the foot on the stand or under the horse so it hangs in a loose, natural manner and he can show me which way the leg turns and where the foot wants to be. He trims to that....it is the opposite of what anyone would think should be done based on how the horse stands.

I will discuss it with hubby and see if he has any ideas. The one thing I think I remember was the angle to the hairline when viewed straight on. It is very evident that which side is high and which is low...is this Ben or Buzz?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Mar. 27, 2003, 11:53 AM

slb -- the thing that is soooo frustrating is that my farrier thinks of himself as being somewhat NB educated, but you are so right here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It should be obvious that if there is a flare on one side, the forces that cause it come from an opposite side. This is so obvious now...but, I understand your farrier's problem seeing this as I didn't at first either. Geezzz...this was so simple, so clear and I couldn't get past the books to understand it...the books also say that the foot hits on the high side...but that is on a stright leg! I have two crooked legged horses...but you can't see it, so most farriers cannot balance them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!! You cannot *see* Ben's crookedness, I mean, even the vet that originally shot his hind x-rays had to stand next to him, holding the films to actually "see" where the crookedness is. But, you can darn sure feel it when you ride him if he's not right. <sigh>

This is Ben that we are debating at the moment.

Buzz is another story all together. He has one hind foot that is high inside and one that is high outside.

But Ben is my immediate concern and his way of going seems more affected by the imbalance.

The good news is that apparently he is close to 100% sound today, and just a tad bit sore in that heel where the cotton got stuffed inside.

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 27, 2003, 12:25 PM

Bensmom...look you can see it in the hairline...tell your farrier to trim to straighten the hairline...its as simple as that!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 27, 2003, 12:32 PM

Shadytrake...welcome to the board and to this ever-growing thread...we can't wait for your pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think that the one thing to watch for is that the heels stay nice and open...that they don't get contracted...if he is barefoot, then is can happen on soft ground, but good trimming addresses this. As long as the foot has good form, it will have good function...that optimal circulation and self cleaning will serve you well and be your biggest aid in preventing thrush.

IMO, probably 90% or more of thrush cases are on horses with contracted or otherwise compromised feet.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LimeKiwi

Mar. 27, 2003, 01:35 PM

feet or hoofs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TIFF
http://www.livejournal.com/users/equinekisses/

LimeKiwi

Mar. 27, 2003, 01:36 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TIFF
http://www.livejournal.com/users/equinekisses/

slb

Mar. 27, 2003, 02:52 PM

USAPJ...can you repost and make your pics a little bigger? Its a little hard to see them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 06:44 PM

Okay, I have pictures. This might take a few posts so bear with me.

For those of you who have tried photographing your "babies," I now know how you feel. Mr. Wiggle Worm did not want to stand still. Thank goodness for digital cameras. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by shadytrake on Mar. 27, 2003 at 09:54 PM.]

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 06:55 PM

And the next one...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:00 PM

Okay, the right one...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:02 PM

Right Front Solar...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:03 PM

Both Front...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:04 PM

And the other side of both front...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:04 PM

Left Rear...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:05 PM

And the left rear solar...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:06 PM

Right Rear...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:08 PM

Right Rear Solar...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:08 PM

Both Rear...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:09 PM

He was wiggling. Here are both rear again...

shadytrake

Mar. 27, 2003, 07:11 PM

And the last one of both rear...

These are all BEFORE PICTURES. The farrier is due on April 4th. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What do I need to focus on and discuss with him??

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 12:25 AM

Bensmom....can you tell me if Bens hind feet have frogs that touch the ground? Also, do his bars curve in and are his heels sort of crumbly and not producing healthy horn?

How about Buzz....does he have this configuration?

Can you re-post the link to Ben's x-rays...can't seem to find it.

OK...never mind...I found them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 31, 2003 at 03:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 31, 2003 at 03:44 AM.]

dressager

Mar. 31, 2003, 12:56 AM

Quick update: The farrier was at the barn today and claims (broken english) that making the toe shorter and putting him more on his heels will make him lame. I have to call the vet before he will change anything. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I got down and really looked at the hoof. After doing so I really understand what you were saying slb.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
California, here we come!!!

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 02:46 AM

Dressager....well, maybe something good will come of this. If he will listen to the vet...maybe the vet will be a little more insightful or at least more open minded.

Here's hoping! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 03:08 AM

Shadytrake...overall not too bad, but looks like you got some quarter flares in all feet and underrun heels starting. It's difficult to tell from the pics, but when I lay lines on them, there is a little more difference between front and rear angles than there should be. Also, the solars seem to indicate that the heels are a little forward of the widest part of the frog (where the straight edges turn into the rounded part).

Shouldn't be to much to fix if the farrier takes the toe back just a little and gets rid of the flares. Also, needs to take the heels down just a little...that will get them back where they belong.

Hope this helps... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

dressager

Mar. 31, 2003, 04:50 AM

slb- I talked to the vet a few hours ago. He claims these horses are different but will look at him tomorrow when he comes to the barn and then call my trainer (who agrees with you). The trainer is going to try to convince him that the horse needs to have a shorter toe.

Question- the vet said that a horse can't have "more heel"... what does this mean? (I said the horse needed to have a shorter toe and more support/build on the heel)

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
California, here we come!!!

betsyk

Mar. 31, 2003, 07:16 AM

Unfortunately I don't have any new photos but wanted to give an update on my TB whose pix are posted earlier in this thread. I SCORED, and managed to get an appt with our regular farrier on one of the days he works with the Fancy Referral Farrier from the Vet School (otherwise known as the man who saved my horse's feet last year). He hadn't seen Texas in a year, and I wanted him to see how he looked a year later and make sure we were on track. He was really pleased, and was especially pleased that he is holding his angles for 6-1/2 weeks. There was a lot of very technical farrier-type conversation http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. The referral guy is much more willing than our regular guy to dremel and fill cracks, so I had him open up the one I was worried about - and it was CLEAN!! no sign of recurring WLD (knock wood). So I am a very happy camper and Texas seems happy with his latest feet.

shadytrake

Mar. 31, 2003, 07:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Also, needs to take the heels down just a little...that will get them back where they belong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SLB,

I guess I don't understand what this means. Can you explain with a visual aid? Or can you recommend a good basic reference book for "lay people?"

Bensmom

Mar. 31, 2003, 08:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
Bensmom....can you tell me if Bens hind feet have frogs that touch the ground? Also, do his bars curve in and are his heels sort of crumbly and not producing healthy horn?

How about Buzz....does he have this configuration?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm -- right off hand, I think both boys have frogs in back that are fairly normal, say, unlike Ben's front feet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif but I will check for sure this afternoon.

Buzz is due to get reset today, (good thing too since he ripped a shoe off Saturday night apparently. <sigh> ) I've also asked the vet to come out at the same time, as Ben is still lame in his right front. We are almost positive that his heel is irritated down in the cleft where his heel is contracted -- first from the farrier insisting on stuffing the area with cotton to try and treat the thrush and then from me using a harsh treatment to squirt down in there after the cotton caused too much pressure and was removed. Poor Ben. So, we are going to take a look and as I'm still not happy with Ben's rear feet, we are going to address that area as well.

slb -- This is turning out to be a nightmare of traditional thinking vs. what science can show us. Argghhhh. Would you ask your hubby *why* farriers are taught as an absolute that the side of the foot that lands first is the higher side of the foot. This would be true on an absolutely perfect otherwise foot, but the bones of the leg can affect what goes on below when the horse moves -- i.e. a horse that has crooked legs could still land on the lower side of the hoof first in motion, as Ben does. This is where we are having a problem. <sigh>

Thanks for all the help!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 08:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dressager:
slb- I talked to the vet a few hours ago. He claims these horses are different but will look at him tomorrow when he comes to the barn and then call my trainer (who agrees with you). The trainer is going to try to convince him that the horse needs to have a shorter toe.

Question- the vet said that a horse can't have "more heel"... what does this mean? (I said the horse needed to have a shorter toe and more support/build on the heel)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly is "these horses"??? Horses are horses, things vary as individuals and there are even small noted differences between breeds, but regardless, the foot needs to be balanced and although the "measurements" would be different, the general form shouldn't vary. No horse should have deformed hooves!

Not sure what the vet ment...it is common practice to make the heels of a shoe longer then the actual ground surface of the foot to facilitate support under the boney column and therefore encourage the foot to grow back where it belongs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 09:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by shadytrake:
SLB,
I guess I don't understand what this means. Can you explain with a visual aid? Or can you recommend a good basic reference book for "lay people?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shadytrake...in the attached pic, the red line on the toe indicates the current dorsal hoof wall angle, which should be approximately paralleled by the wall at the heel...green line (variation is allowed, but should be within 10 degrees). The red line on the heel is laid on the current heel angle....big difference between what is (red) and what should be (green).

In the solar view, the red line indicates where the heels currently resides (too far forward) and the green line approx. where the heels should ideally reside...widest part of the frog.

Now, notice the white line on the side view...if I start to lower the heel, the angle becomes more upright (more correct) and the heel moves back closer to optimal position.

Does that make sense?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 31, 2003, 09:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
slb -- This is turning out to be a nightmare of traditional thinking vs. what science can show us. Argghhhh. Would you ask your hubby *why* farriers are taught as an absolute that the side of the foot that lands first is the higher side of the foot. This would be true on an absolutely perfect otherwise foot, but the bones of the leg can affect what goes on below when the horse moves -- i.e. a horse that has crooked legs could still land on the lower side of the hoof first in motion, as Ben does. This is where we are having a problem. <sigh><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bensmom...I hear you frustration http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Hubby is studying the indside of his eyelids right now...but I can hazzard a couple of guesses. First, I would say that many farriers are taught the basics and encouraged to learn corrective/therapeutic applications on their own. I think some of this comes from a previous apprenticeship/master system. Second, I would have to say that many farriers might be taught some basic corrective work, but of the hundreds of horses they see in their working life, the majority don't need corrective work, so it becomes obscure when they don't practice it.

Then there is MNSHO....
I think that as a culture advances...it sometimes fails us in what we "intuitively" understand. For example, when I was a kid all our friends/neighbors worked on their own cars (except for the really rich ones). The technology allowed it, and the men/boys were expected to learn some info in classes like shop and also worked with their dads...there was time to spend doing it...for some it was a hobby. But, as we advance, the hobby fades...or becomes to high tech for the average backyard mechanic, the cars become to high tech to work on with just a screw driver and wrench. And, time is well spend doing other things. Society looks to the guys in white shirts as role models for young men....not those that have mechanical minds and get their finger nails greasy. Even in my rural area, the mechanically minded boys are frowned upon...cars take up too much of their time....they are "loosers" going nowhere. But in reality, the skills that they learn are important....thinking out of the box, problem solving, innovation...many of these things have become lost to us...and our farriers....we rely on a handful of well paid people to cover it. The problem that I see is that many farriers don't have the mechanical mindset to understand forces. Many lack the artistic skills to understand symetry. They simply trim and apply shoes the way the guy before them did....right or wrong, the horse is sound, it must be ok. Many have only one standard shoe and method that they use...they don't vary from the basics that they were taught in school. They just don't have the inclination to think for themselves....most of our society has come to this...it is just to easy to let a few others do it for us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:29 PM

OK, FINALLY I took some pics of Ozzy's feet. The farrier was coming out (first time with a new guy since I moved south, he was great) and i took some before and after pics...but for the life of me I can't find all the after pics.

Here are the specs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Ozzy hadn't been trimmed in over 8 weeks before the farrier came out, he's been barefoot his whole life (all 4 years of it), he's JUST come back into work after having the winter off. We hack on roads, gravel, mud, dirt, grass, trees, small childeren you name it. Anyhoo, Here they are. He's got a great ole big flair in this first front on shot.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:31 PM

front side

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:36 PM

another front view

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:37 PM

front solar

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:38 PM

right hind

OK, I keep TRYING to attach this pic and the BB is going all whacked on me...hold please...

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

[This message was edited by lisamarie8 on Apr. 01, 2003 at 04:46 PM.]

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:42 PM

left hind

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Lisamarie8

Apr. 1, 2003, 01:44 PM

another front solar...

pay no mind to the left and right labels on the pics...I'm SAVAGE in my dyslexia and left and rights KILL me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know i took more, but I can't find them...i have issues http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So that's all for now. Tell me what you see. He's a super sound guy (now that I said that I'll go home and he'll be 3-legged) and seems to have great feet...but what the hell do i know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

HunterWithoutACause

Apr. 2, 2003, 08:06 AM

Can anyone recommend a good book on hoof conformation? I want to be able to look at a hoof and have a solid layman's understanding of what's right and wrong with it.

Thanks!

slb

Apr. 2, 2003, 09:00 PM

I would highly recommend the "New Hope for Soundness" book sold at their website - www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) . It is an overview of their research on wild horse feet and provides some good diagrams comparing good and bad foot forms. However, it doesn't cover interior information. They also have a very good video on trimming that would show the application on a real foot.

Somewhere in the last half of this thread there is a list of books and references that I use...including websites that provide lots of good pics and info on correct trimming.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Apr. 2, 2003, 09:45 PM

Lisamarie....thanks for adding those last pics they were good, the others didn't help.

In the pic I attached, there are a few things...

There are slight flares in the quarters. The configuration of the foot is too long and the heels are underrun. Note the white line on the rear solar view (on the right)...it indicates the length of the foot from widest part to point of breakover and to heel (green lines). Note that the ratio shows more weight bearing surface at the front rather than at the rear of the foot. The optimal configuration is 1/3 (front) 2/3 (rear).

The red lines indicate where your heels are now, and the green line where they should reside. They appear too long and if they were cut down, the angle would change and the heel would be moved back to widest part of frog.

The curved red lines indicate the curve that is starting in the bars. The bars should ideally be straight. Curving indicates unusual forces that most likely are caused by the heels starting to contract in as they move foreward. The bars will straighten when the heels are in position.

Also note the white angled line on the toe of the front solar view (on the left). This indicates the current point of breakover. This is most likely because the toes are too long, so the horse tries to compensate and get out of its own way by rolling over the side of the toe rather than the front.

Think I covered everything....hope this helps.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Hilary

Apr. 3, 2003, 07:37 AM

I posted back when the thread was in the teens - but wanted to report that when the farrier came yesterday she said his feet were looking really good (with, of course the caveat of "For Clancy). My walking on the paved roads had worn his feet down so she didn't need to trim him, but said his soles were really tough and the walls looked good. The crack in the right front (caused by hitting a fence at coronary band) is now a ding, halfway down the hoof, and is NOT extending up. The one on his left, which he's "always" had is the same - starts at coronary band, barely visible, and widens as it goes down.

She did not have the equithane, but tried something that was sort of like sillyputty, you mixed the 2 colors together and mashed it in the hoof. Then put shoe on with mesh and let it harden. Bottom line was one foot didn't last the night, and the second looked ok, until I rode him, and then it looked like it would fall out soon.

Its very wet here, with mud, and I'm assuming this stuff just isn't meant for muddy turnout. He'll be OK without pads for this shoeing, and hopefully it will be dry in 6 weeks.

Hind shoes were pre-made, fairly wide web steel, with quarter clips fairly far forward.

Shortly after shoeing it began to pour, and I didn't ride that day, but this morning took him out and he's feeling good.

While it's been frustrating not being able to ride faster than a walk while the remaining ice goes away, it actually did his feet some good. And the Keratex is helping too.

Robby Johnson

Apr. 3, 2003, 08:08 AM

slb, I'm a little confused. You refer Lisa to the hopeforsoundness site and talk about horses in the wild and how they wear their feet. Ozzie has been barefoot his entire life, and lives in what is probably a semi-wild environment (he's on 24/7 turnout, I'm pretty sure), so why aren't his feet more like the feral horses studied by the New Balance folks? Lack of extreme conditions/changes (like going from rock to steppe to plains?)?

I'm just curious as to how his trimmed hoof can look basically like what we're all hoping to change about our shod horses.

Robby

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

slb

Apr. 3, 2003, 07:32 PM

Robby...I'm glad you asked this as it allows some discussion on the important aspects of the differences between domestic and wild hooves.

The main difference that I would suggest is the 20+ miles a day that wild horses travel to eat, drink, and other wise survive. In his new book on founder, Jamie Jackson describes one extreme of what happens when wild horses can't move. While it may be speculation, it does have some merit. He describes how a small band got "trapped" in a protected area (fenced off from the rest of the BLM reserve) that provided very lush grass, water, and natural mineral licks...everything a horse wants right! They stayed there for days grazing, drinking, licking, and bearly moving to reach any of this. By the end of a few days, they were all severely lame...suspected laminitis/founder. The BLM employee that pointed this band out to Jackson had been following the band for years...there had never been an instance of lameness in any of them until they had this lack of movement. Movement is a key to good hoof health, form, and function. It is imperative that a horse travel at least 15-20 miles/day in order to wear its feet. While this may not be the case for all domestic horses, it is the case for those with good, hard feet as those feet need excessive wear to be self-trimming. Unhealthy feet are generally softer, wear easily, and are often slow growing. Healthy feet produce denser horn and generally grow faster.

The other problem is that we cannot overlook human intervention in domestic horses. You can have a barefoot horse in a "semi- wild" situation, but still need trimming. If there isn't hundreds, or thousands of acres, varied terrain as you noted (generally abrassive terrain), and if the horse has no motivation to move throughout that acerage, then self-trimming generally will not take place. So, enters the farrier/trimmer.

Unfortunately, the nature of the foot is to run forward (developing a long toe and underrun heel) as that is the "nature of the beast". The foot sticks out in front of the leg and tends to want to keep growing out there. And, likewise, many farriers/trimmers believe that this is the way the foot "wants to be", so they keep trimming the foot this way. But, studies now show us that this is not what the foot "wants", it is what it does when growth is out of control because of lack of self-trimming.

Does this help with the confusion? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Robby Johnson

Apr. 4, 2003, 03:24 AM

Yes, that helps greatly! Thanks!

Robby

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Lisamarie8

Apr. 4, 2003, 04:59 AM

How Neat!

And yup, Robby, The Oz man is out 24/7 and wanders around 12+ acres.

I wish I had a good picture of Ozzy AFTER he was trimmed. Like I said it had been well over 8-10 weeks since he had been done. Perhaps this afternoon (as I'm getting ready for our combined test tomorrow YAY!) I'll take some more pictures.

slb, thanks for taking the time, with the diagrams and stuff. I find all of this fascinating. I'm going to go back and read it again, I'm sure to have questions.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

SaddleFitterVA

Apr. 4, 2003, 05:26 AM

I keep meaning to grab the digital camera and take pics. I told Henry about this thread at our last appt and he was going to grab his wife's digital camera for me, but couldn't find it.

Anyway, I'll see if I have time tomorrow morning. I'll sweep out a stall (rubber mats) and stand the barefoot ones in there and the shod (fronts only). All were barefoot for almost 4 months this past winter and Romeo & Pico just got front shoes on.

Not only that, I'll be sending Henry the URL to this thread so he can read (and possibly participate) in any comments about his work on my guys.

Mel
P.S. slb, it is Henry Heymering (you'd had Hammering sp?) in an earlier post. And, last year, when he was studying the Strasser method before the Tufts panel on it, we actually compared my horse's feet to her "template" and agreed that I would have lame horses if I tried those angles!

slb

Apr. 4, 2003, 10:15 AM

SFVA....that is great....I don't know why I couldn't think of Henry's last name when I wrote that (dain bramage moment). It would be great if he could come and join us. I conversed with him several times when he was researching Stasser. He seems like a very nice person and extremely knowledgable. I am sure that your horses feet look great. You are lucky to have such a competent farrier. I don't know his take on Natrual Balance principles (which is generally the principles that I support), but very much agree with him on what he learned about Strasser's methods and how they are, or aren't, applied in the field by her trimmers.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Saddith

Apr. 4, 2003, 10:36 AM

I have another question... and it is spawned by Instant Karma's thread about her shoer messing up her horse.

My shoer sets my horses shoes back and leaves just a touch of hoof overhanging on the toe. (For breakover I am guessing) I noticed that the clinches seem to come out awfully high on his hooves - probably due to the setting back of the shoe. Does this mean that the nails are going through the sole? And how far back can you safely set a shoe and nail it without getting into the hoof wall?

Obviously, the shoe has nail holes in it, and if you set it back far, the nail holes are not near the edge of the hoof. I was watching my farrier after he had taken off the old shoes, and when he trimmed the toe area, there was discoloring on the sole - an orange line appeared in a half circle near the toe (akin to a smile formation). My farrier said it was normal. I am worried that he maybe setting the nails too far back, quicking him barely but how can you tell that? He hasn't been lame, and I haven't noticed any difference in his movement. Maybe a shortness, but he will extend his trot evenly when he wants to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cassie01

Apr. 4, 2003, 10:37 AM

I can't believe this thread is still going! The info here is amazing.

Finally I got the chance to take some photos and set up a simple photo page. I guess it's been a couple of months, and two trims, since my last (and somewhat irate - I'm still irate, but...) post about my little girl's feet. I asked the farrier to go back to what he had been doing with the clubbed foot and he did.

Just so you don't have to go back and find my last post, the clubbed foot was doing well then farrier decided to do something different without my knowledge or consent. That's what I get for trying to let my baby be a big girl and stand in the cross ties by herself without me standing there. My fault. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Anyway, he had trimmed the heel down, but left the toe really long so it looked like she was wearing a swim flipper. Then he proceeded to tell me that because she was going to be 2 this year that there was no hope. What happened in the weeks after that trim was disgusting. By the time I was able to get him back out - and I made him come back out just for her - the clubbed foot looked hideous. The last two times he has worked on her, he hasn't even stopped to LOOK at her feet. He just does a little rasping and that's it. Every time I tried to ask anything or get him to stop and LOOK he would just tell me that it's "so hard" or "she's too old now" or some other evasion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif The trim 2 days ago was the last time he will touch her feet. I am moving in a few weeks and the new barn has a Natural Balance farrier http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (which I just found out yesterday) who has done really great work with their horses.

Believe it or not, the clubbed foot now looks better than it did. Yes, it was worse two trims ago http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif She did not look ***anywhere*** near this bad when this guy started working on her. The RF was a little more upright than the left but there was no dish. That's what I get for trusting him when he told me he's helped lots of clubfooted horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif When things started going downhill I tried finding somebody else to come do her, but all the shoers in this area are so busy that nobody could come out for just one trim.

I just don't feel that all of her feet are balanced well over-all either.

When I first purchased her, I really backed off the feed that her breeder was giving her. She now basically lives on hay with just a small amount of grain (and sunnieflax http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) to mix her vitamin supp in. Her growth definitely hasn't suffered http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am just stumped on the thrush. Her stall is clean and dry and picked multiple times per day. Her feet are picked atleast 2x per day, once when leaving her stall and again when coming in from turnout. I can't even tell you all of the thrush remedies I've tried. I'm about ready to ditch remedy #1000 (a Tea Tree based product) and go back to Thrush Buster which has produced the best results so far.

At her new home she will have 12+ hours of turnout a day which is far more than the 5 hrs max she gets now. I'm hoping that will have some sort of positive effect also.

***edited to add - I'll be getting radiographs ASAP and if she needs the surgery, then, well, she'll get it.

***edited again to add - she moves beautifully http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. That is my remaining ray of light in this whole issue. Her movement is even on both front legs and she takes both canter leads equally.

Anyway, please fire away. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Cassie's icky feet (http://www.geocities.com/harmony1679/cassiefeet403.html)

[This message was edited by cassie01 on Apr. 04, 2003 at 01:46 PM.]

SaddleFitterVA

Apr. 4, 2003, 11:07 AM

slb,

Henry has my gelding in the steel Natural Balance shoes. We started using the NBs on Romeo...oh gosh, well before he was my regular farrier...5 or 6 years ago maybe-when they were only available in Aluminum. He'd fix up Romeo's angles for me, leave me the instructions for my regular farrier, and I'd take shoes and go for another year...while the angles would just gradually get worse again.

He actually put my mare's first pair of shoes on in 1995. He was over for a party and trail ride and she was barefoot and getting ouchy, so he put a set of shoes on her.

I do have to haul up to him, I'm about an hour away and well outside of his normal working area, but that actually works fine for me.

I now have weaseled all 4 of my horses onto his schedule, I did it gradually...over about 2 years. He was actually my friend before he was my farrier http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif.

IMO, their feet all look great and all the intermittent soundness issues I had been having with Pico went away after I talked him into doing her as well as Romeo.

I'll get pics this weekend.

Pico doesn't use the NB shoes, but he sets the shoe well back.

I don't know if he'll register and participate, but I'll email him the thread.

Mel

slb

Apr. 4, 2003, 01:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Saddith:
I have another question... and it is spawned by Instant Karma's thread about her shoer messing up her horse.

My shoer sets my horses shoes back and leaves just a touch of hoof overhanging on the toe. (For breakover I am guessing) I noticed that the clinches seem to come out awfully high on his hooves - probably due to the setting back of the shoe. Does this mean that the nails are going through the sole? And how far back can you safely set a shoe and nail it without getting into the hoof wall?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If nails are too high or low, that is the way that the farrier applies the nail. High means that the nail is to close to the sensative tissue (or actually putting pressure on it), low means that the nail is too close to the outside of the hoof wall. It really has nothing to do with how far back the shoe is set.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Obviously, the shoe has nail holes in it, and if you set it back far, the nail holes are not near the edge of the hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would this change things. The shoe should still fit the hoof, just because it is moved back, doesn't mean that the nail holes shouldn't match up with the hoof wall. Depending on how far back it is set, the shoe may need to be spread and some of the nail holes may not be used as they may line up with the sensative structures.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I was watching my farrier after he had taken off the old shoes, and when he trimmed the toe area, there was discoloring on the sole - an orange line appeared in a half circle near the toe (akin to a smile formation). My farrier said it was normal. I am worried that he maybe setting the nails too far back, quicking him barely but how can you tell that? He hasn't been lame, and I haven't noticed any difference in his movement. Maybe a shortness, but he will extend his trot evenly when he wants to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally if the sensative tissue is compromised either through the nail actually entering it, or by the nail being too close and putting excess pressure on it, the horse is or becomes lame. But, some horses are just "tough".

The orange cresent shape that you see is a solar bruise generated by pressure on the sole. The problem now is to determine if the pressure comes from inside...rotation or sinking of P3 (founder) can result in this....or if it comes from the outside...pressure from the shoe touching the sole. Sometimes when normal shoes are set back, they touch the sole...shoes like Natrual Balance are beveled to provide sole relief...some farriers bevel keg shoes for the same purpose.

Hope this helps... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Saddith

Apr. 4, 2003, 03:13 PM

Your answers always help slb! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you don't mind, I am going to try and take some pics of his new shoes - maybe you could give your opinion on clinch height and shoe placement?

I haven't ridden him since he got shoes yet to feel if he is off - I have only turned him out because he seemed a bit egg shelly the last two days. He trimmed a bit more of his toe this time it seemed, and did not touch his heels at all. Only trimmed the edge of the frog, but basically left everything else alone.

I appreciate everyones input on this thread - I have learned a lot so far, and am eager to learn more about the elusive "perfect hoof".

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slb

Apr. 5, 2003, 04:25 PM

Saddith...looking forward to your pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cassie....first, IMO, I would suggest that there is NO way that she needs surgery...the heel isn't that high and there is no reason to cut tendons to accommodate the little bit that it needs to go to be balanced.

Check out the pics....not only is the club dished, but the other foot is slightly dished also. You are correct, all the feet are unbalanced.

The club foot is also beginning to "lean" to the side (check out the white lines on it compared to the vertical black lines - top left of pic). The heels are begining to shear. They have not actually done so as yet, but the heels do not match, which means that the bulbs will follow. In the center pic, the white lines drawn from the widest part of the foot to the toe and heel area indicate that the toe is even longer than the max. accepted 50:50 ratio. The red circle indicates that the frog has attached itself to (or grown over) the heels and needs to be trimmed back. The reason that his has happened is because of the contraction. The green lines indicate approx. where the frog should fill in and the heels should reside outside of that area. Luckily, you don't seem to have underrun heels to deal with. This is a classic example of how trimming to match angles really doesn't suffice...the angles are ok, but the feet are distorted.

If the toe is moved back, the dish will disappear. It is from the white line stretching as a result of the toe being too long. The horizontal green line indicates approx. where breakover should occur, the end of the toe should be slightly (approx. an inch or so) in front of that.

Note the overlay in the pic beside it where I took the shorter toe and placed it on the old foot...it already starts to look more round and will in turn help open up the heels and get rid of the contraction. From the other pics that I saw, you have a similar problem in all feet...long toe and contraction.

About the thrush...one of the most common causes of thrush is not wetness or uncleanliness, it is contraction. When the foot is contracted, the frog becomes pinched (depending on degree of problem). The circulation becomes compromised in the heel area, the foot becomes unhealthy in general...opening it up to opportunistic fungus and bacteria. The crevices become excessively deep and sometimes pinched. The natural "cleaning" mechanism of the frog and foot cannot work. Fungus and/or bacteria get trapped and maultiply. It becomes a never ending cycle and you can't get rid of the thursh....no matter how clean the feet/stall are. You need health, circulation, air, and self-cleaning to beat thrush.

Good luck with your new farrier...please come back and post pics of Cassie's "new" feet!

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cassie01

Apr. 6, 2003, 07:41 AM

slb - Thank you so much!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You have no idea how much better this makes me feel. Everything that you said is what I've been feeling in my gut, but just don't have the knowledge to back up (does that make any sense?).

I kept telling him I thought the toe was too long, but he kept telling me that it needed to be longer to correct the club foot. ACK! I knew that wasn't right, but what do I know? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And this guy really does do an amazing job shoeing the dressage horses here. I guess trims aren't worth his time http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I will keep the angry rant to myself right now...

Even though I haven't had radiographs done ($$$$$), the vets are sick of looking at Cassie's feet http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Every single time one of them is at the barn for anything else, I drag them into her stall. Even they say she isn't a surgery candidate, but of course I know how little time is spent on hooves in vet school - and of course I've just been super paranoid about her feet, too.

I've already decided to make a photographic diary webpage to track her progress. I had wanted to do one of her training, but I think this will be a much more interesting subject!

Robby Johnson

Apr. 10, 2003, 11:11 AM

The thread that just won't die!!!!

OK, this morning I had a very pleasurable and educational shoeing experience with my farrier. I went out for Rhodey's shoeing reset and we put him back in his squared off front shoes (the ones he wore for a week before we had the Big Whammy pulled on us).

I have been emailing my AFA/CJF farrier all of these links about correcting underrun heels and he took the opportunity to educate me on where he's coming from. Clearly I cannot go into all of that here since it was so much information (my liberal arts mind can only process so much before my eyes start to cross), so I'll just skip over to the good stuff.

It ended pretty well. The front toe(s) is now 3.25" with a 54 degree angle, and we have cut off and "floated" the heels hoping they will grow back down. The shoe is also set back and the toe is rolled/squared off. Behind we have neat "rocker toes," that my farrier forged, to help keep the shoe on. Rhodey is a really bad stomper and kicks his stall wall quite a bit (he hates his next door neighbor). The farrier didn't want/like to use clips - particularly on Rhodey - and here's why.

The horse has virtually no hoof wall. And the other farrier took off all of the "side wall" that my farrier had been growing up front. My farrier said, "we are going to have to somewhat 'cowboy shoe' him until I get more wall on the sides to nail into." As it is now, the nails come out really high up!

He does like the idea of doing the pour-in pads with Rhodey, but I opted not to this time since I'm not sure if he'll have his shoes pulled for the bone scan in a few weeks.

The other issue we have is m/l balance and we have a bit of a conundrum because Rhodey could have the bony column on the left much more in line, but to do that the shoe has to be offset a tad with more trailing the inside; and he pulls those off as he is narrow and steps on himself (even with bell boots).

So maybe to correct this we'll just start in small micro-millis? At this point, we need more wall anyway before we could even attempt it.

I gave Rhodey 1g Bute since he is usually sore for a few hours after a shoeing.

Thanks to this thread, I do feel like I've worked through an issue and have really been educated on an issue that I wasn't familiar with at all. And my farrier was so kind and accommodating to me. It's hopefully a win-win!

Robby

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

flshgordon

Apr. 10, 2003, 12:16 PM

I for one am hoping this thread doesn't DIE because I am getting a new farrier---1st appointment is in 1.5 weeks. I have one TB mare that is currently barefoot & will be until she weans her foal, as well as a show hunter. I'm curious to see what he will suggest for both of them--I will be taking pictures & asking for opinions as soon as I meet him.

Bensmom

Apr. 10, 2003, 01:05 PM

YAY! Sounds like you had a great session with your farrier Robby -- I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this really helps Rhodey. It sounds as if he's chosen a route that will really help those heels. I think with better angles and better boney column support, he'll be much more comfortable.

My farrier and I are communicating better, but the jury is still out on Ben's hind feet. The vet re-read the x-rays and says definitely that Ben is high on the inside of his hind feet. My farrier will still not agree with that, and took care of the hind flares by narrowing the foot, which I am not happy about.

So, for the moment, we are agreeing to disagree, and as long as my horse goes well, and his feet stay closer to balanced, I will not force him to agree with me.

slb -- the frustrating thing about this farrier is that he is a very qualified machinist and ran a tremendously successful brake and alignment shop before becoming a farrier. He can fix/fashion from scratch *anything* and makes the best handmade shoes. When he is on board with the vet and with me, he can work wonders -- i.e. Buzz's wedge steel eventers.

But, we have this central disagreement about what the foot behind is telling us. I can SEE the medial/lateral imbalance with the outside low and he insists that because that side of the foot hits the ground first, it is the high side. Is this what the textbooks teach? I can't figure out how to deal with this philosophical problem. When shown the x-rays, he suggested the x-ray film was flopped. HUH?!

Argghhhh -- he is usually open to new ideas and reads articles and whatnot -- any suggestions in farrier mags that I can direct him to?

Another shoeing where I have to get down on my knees and measure everything at his request will push me over the edge!

Thanks guys, and yay Robby!!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

lucky2day99

Apr. 10, 2003, 05:35 PM

My mare's weird foot

I was going to post this on the other thread I started, but I figured more people are looking at this one (I know I do).

This mare is a 19 year old TB mare. She has severe ringbone in her right front however has been "pasture" sound for about a year now. Originally this foot was nerved (though that did not really desensitize much of her pain at all). She has been turned out 24/7 for 2.5 years now in a soft green pasture. She has not had shoes since the day my farrier pulled them off.

Since she has been trotting "sound" (after a flex test by vet gives her about a 1/5 which is remarkable considering she was a 5/5 lame) we took some xrays in late January. Her coffin joint in her RF has completely fused miraculously. Her pastern is about 85% fused.

I have chosen to keep her out of shoes considering that she has done so well since her surgery. She basically just hangs out.

Her hoof is mishapen. It reminds me of a club foot. My farrier has basically been trimming her to try and keep her as balanced as can be but to not interfere with how the hoof is growing. Like my two vets-- the farrier is worried to do too much with this foot because she has done so well with little interference. We tried all the therapy shoeing we could and it was just terrible for her. When her shoes finally came off-- it took my farrier over an hour to pull off her fronts she was in so much pain.

Anyhow long story short. Even though my farrier has seen this now about 3 times, I was a little concerned about this hole. She has not shown any signs of an abscess unless he drained out and popped before it was caught. She had one abscess several months ago (probably 6-8 months ago) which popped out of the coronary band.

Other than that this is all. The sole is far more prominent on this foot than any of the others. Not bulging out just pretty level with her frog.

Excuse the muddy picture. I had her sprayed off and as I was trying to take pics-- she decided to gallop across the muddy field (we are having flooding here the ground is so wet) as soon as she heard the tractor start to bring out the feed she took off like a bandit. Afterall-- all the pesky mom stuff she feels is inappropriate now considering she is a retired pony. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I did not have the time to wash her off again so I had to make due with these shots while she was munching dinner. I will try to get some better ones soon.

C

lucky2day99

Apr. 10, 2003, 05:45 PM

Mare's all 4

She is not standing square at all. I had to get below her feed bucket and she was then trying to eat the camera. Though I think you can see a pretty decent look at how her right foot is mishapen and how buttressed her pastern area is. I find the foot paddles in a little bit. I put little blue markers to point where I see this.

C

~*CookiE*~

Apr. 10, 2003, 08:12 PM

Ok, So I have a few questions.
I am trying to get pictures of my mare's feet this weekend, but we'll see what happens.
Ok, so here's the deal. I have an 11 year old OTTB mare, her back feet stay in impeccably good shape. Frogs on the ground, nice smooth roll over, barely any chips if any within a 6-10 wk. span. BUT her front feet are feet from hell! She often over reaches and chips off the heals that we have been trying to hard to get on her. We were almost sucessful in the last trim, but since, she's pulled off one of the shoes and we're back to square one. SO my question is, turn her out with bell boots on when she gets her next trim or what? The chipping of the heels is just really starting to get to me and I am at a loss at what to do.

Thanks!
Melissa

Can't wait to go to farrier school...

~*persistence pays off! hehe!*~

slb

Apr. 10, 2003, 09:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
My farrier and I are communicating better, but the jury is still out on Ben's hind feet. The vet re-read the x-rays and says definitely that Ben is high on the inside of his hind feet. My farrier will still not agree with that, and took care of the hind flares by narrowing the foot, which I am not happy about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bensmom...what exactly do you mean by "narrowing" the foot? The foot will look narrow if the flares are removed. If it looks too narrow, then most likely the toe needs backing up....but it may just look narrow as you are not used to looking at this configuration.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>slb -- the frustrating thing about this farrier is that he is a very qualified machinist and ran a tremendously successful brake and alignment shop before becoming a farrier. He can fix/fashion from scratch *anything* and makes the best handmade shoes. When he is on board with the vet and with me, he can work wonders -- i.e. Buzz's wedge steel eventers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is strange with a background like that...most people with these skills find it easy to think out of the box.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But, we have this central disagreement about what the foot behind is telling us. I can SEE the medial/lateral imbalance with the outside low and he insists that because that side of the foot hits the ground first, it is the high side. Is this what the textbooks teach? I can't figure out how to deal with this philosophical problem. When shown the x-rays, he suggested the x-ray film was flopped. HUH?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bensmom...I'm soooo confused!!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
You are talking about the left hind, correct? I don't see that if that is the correct foot.

Sometimes the x-rays do get flipped, but I don't think this is the case. But, I am sooo confused at this point. Verify which foot we are taking about and I will tell you exactly what I see.

Robby...this is great...sounds like things are on track...maybe you can post new pics after a couple of trims so we can see progress.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Apr. 10, 2003, 09:52 PM

slb -- you are SUCH an angel to try to keep up with both of my boys. On Ben, who is the concern of the moment, it is both hind feet. I will ask him exactly what he means by "narrowing" the foot -- he did take off the flares from the outside of both hind feet.

One other thing that is interesting -- to me, I look at a flare and one thing that occurs to me is that where the flare is is taking too much stress -- i.e. when the hoof flares on the outside, it makes sense to me that the outside is lower than the inside and the tilt is squooshing the hoof outward to deal with the pressure. My farrier says the opposite -- that a flare proves that that is the high side, since it is striking the ground first and flaring out to try to compensate for being too high.

So, you see, we've got a basic disagreement as to what we see and what it means. Just to recap -- this is both of Ben's hind feet and I believe that both the photos and the x-rays show high inside/low outside. In fact, I should go back a couple of pages, as you drew me lines that showed that the hairline backs up exactly what I think is going on.

I'll be printing that out for our next reset!!

Keep up the good work guys!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

paddington

Apr. 11, 2003, 05:38 AM

I've been following this thread for awhile now, although I do have to admit I'm a couple of pages behind. However, I am looking for some opinions on a new type of shoe my horse is currently in. Like many horses, he has that long toe, low heel syndrome so my farrier has him in shoes that are convex, so that when he stands the back of the shoe does not actually touch the ground. Only the toe of the shoe touches. In theory, it's supposed to act something like a wedge by changing his toe angle, but at the same time it's supposed to allow his heel to grow since there is no pressure on his heel (not touching the ground). However, he's having some new back end issues that are currently pretty subtle, but I am afraid that they may be due to the shoe and may get worse. Any opinions on the shoe, good or bad, will be greatly appreciated!

slb

Apr. 14, 2003, 08:40 PM

Hi everyone....sorry that I haven't had time to answer questions lately...under the gun to get taxes done!

Anyway, thought that I would post these two very good articles that might help in filling in the gaps of my "simple" summaries of what is going on with balance and underrun heels.

http://www.equineoz.com.au/art20.htm (underrun heels)

http://www.equineoz.com.au/art14.htm (balanced defined)

Happy reading.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

subk

Apr. 15, 2003, 07:36 AM

Thanks for the articles!

Question (hope it hasn't already been discussed): Why are underrun heels so incredibly prevelant at the track. I know that "tradition" has alot more weight with trainers than science, but I don't get it. Go to Churchill and watch the paddock and underrun heels exisit in more than 50% of the horses. Higher in younger ages. I don't beleive it's genetic because I've seen it fixed again and again with OTTB. I swear I think trainers shoe intentionally to create underrun heels! What's going on?

slb

Apr. 15, 2003, 10:14 AM

Well...they don't exactly shoe to promote underrun heels...they shoe to promote long toe, the heels just follow!

Old track tradition dictates that horses run better with long toes...short breakover shortens stride, long breakover lengthens stride. But, as we have discussed here...point of breakover is not at the end of the toe, it is at the end of the coffin bone. Additionally, enhancing breakover can create many things...it can either lengthen or shorten stride, depending on how it is addressed and what the intent is.

I could hazard a guess at why you see it more on younger horses than older...those younger horses will have a shorter career because they will fall into some sort of typical hoof/leg injury/pain that prevents them from furthering their careers. The older horses have better balanced feet and therefore can continue in their jobs longer without problems.

I have a link somewhere to a winning TB that had its career suddenly ended as a result of it becoming so over at the knee...couldn't even stand straight. The person that now owns him balanced his feet and he is now sound and standing correctly!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Apr. 15, 2003, 06:27 PM

Bensmom....sorry I am pressed for time, but here is a link that might help you understand how fast a horse can and should be balanced.

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/

Look under case studies...3 (I think)...the unbalanced foot. Note how she indicated that she didn't shorten the longer side, but let the shorter side grow to match it. This is what I suspect needs to be done on Ben. Maybe your farrier can see that! Maybe if you say...good job with this side, now take off the flare and get the other side to match in length, he will get a clearer pic and be more postive in his approach.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

redpony

Apr. 17, 2003, 03:38 AM

I decided to post the updated pics under this thread rather than the "Need donor legs" thread I started. Just a quick recap - redpony bowed his left front tendon in January. In looking for answers as to why this happened again, (third time, second time this leg), I posted some pictures I took in February and got some excellent feedback which resulted in a change of farriers. I think you can see the difference in the last two trims. His heel is starting to come more under his leg and he has more support. Let me know what you think.

slb

Apr. 17, 2003, 12:40 PM

WOW Redpony....what a difference! You must be pleases. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This is a standard example of how quickly those underrun heels can be brought back into shape. The solar view looks nice...bars nice and straight, heels full and in good position at the back of the foot.

Thanks for posting the progressive shots...it really helps for everyone to see the way this can go.

All you guys still waiting for underrun heels to be fixed...this is a heads-up....it can and should be done in a few trims...it doesn't take a year or more...unless the foot is really distorted.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

inspired

Apr. 17, 2003, 01:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
Well...they don't exactly shoe to promote underrun heels...they shoe to promote long toe, the heels just follow!

Old track tradition dictates that horses run better with long toes...short breakover shortens stride, long breakover lengthens stride. But, as we have discussed here...point of breakover is not at the end of the toe, it is at the end of the coffin bone. Additionally, enhancing breakover can create many things...it can either lengthen or shorten stride, depending on how it is addressed and what the intent is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* well THAT explains a lot. Thanks to this thread, and some other reading I've been doing, I've been quite disturbed by how long and un-balanced my horse's feet are. They seemed "normal" to me because it seems that MOST of the horses around here look that way, and all *4* of the farriers I've used in this area have trimmed that way. No wonder so many horses around here are navicular!!

Turns out the farrier I've BEEN using for the last 2 years does a lot of track horses. DOH!

I'm so desperate to fix my horse's feet that I'm flying a farrier in from the other end of the coast.

My horse has long toes, narrow solar views, heels tending to under-run, and wind-puffs in his hinds. My trainer's horses had wind-puffs, too, that went away with the new farrier. I have a sneaking suspicion that his stifles will straighten out a bit, too.

inspired

Apr. 21, 2003, 01:15 PM

Okee Dokee, I figured this thread needed bumping, and I've got some questions related to my previous post.

My horses front hooves are pretty normal, just way to long with a broken axis - I suspect they will be pretty easy to fix. It's the hinds I'm worried about. I'd post pictures, but it would be a major project to make that happen..

The last farrier has been shoing him with a rocker toe in back for the last year. At a glance, it always looked just fine, but on closer inspection, I'm worried. His heel angle is very low to the ground - I'd say it was under-run, but the front hoof angle is about the same! How could I not notice? Becuase the front of the hoof appears rasped off, so that the front is actually convex. ...not like squaring a toe at all, it's actually quite odd looking, now that he's over-due and it's starting to grow out. He's got trailers traight off the back of the shoe that look over 1" long. Looking at the growth of the tubules, it seems as if his foot would be enormously long if it weren't chopped short! We are letting him go over-due waiting for the new farrier to get here in 3 weeks (seems like forever!) and I'm planning on pulling his shoes next week. It looks like he must have a terribly broken axis, and likely explains the mystery wind-puffs in his hinds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

My questions: he's been having intermittent trouble with catching stifles, for which he has no conformational pre-disposition - is it possible that the broken axis in his hind is contributing? What should I do for him over the next 3 weeks? I ONLY have hilly terrain to ride on - do you think I should put him on vacation? (I hesitate, because time off always makes the stifles worse) Light hacking? He's turned out 12hrs/day.

I AM planning on calling my new farrier, but wanted some other thoughts on the matter. The farrier we're flying in is familiar with this horse and is very good with corrective and preventitive trimming/shoing. Right now, 3 weeks seems so VERY far away!!! Oh, if only I had learned more about this stuff sooner...

Am I blowing this out of proportion?

slb

Apr. 23, 2003, 03:54 AM

Hi Inspired...
Yes, the stifle problem could be related to his feet, but more often I think if slight EPSM, mineral deficiencies (specifically magnesium and/or selenium and vit. E). Have you tried a high fat/low carb diet with added Se+E?

I think you are right, exercise is the best. Riding at a walk should not be too taxing while you wait for the farrier.

It sounds like your guys feet are long and flat looking as opposed to upright? Although not generally called for, radical dubbing of the toe would help get the foot back under him and get rid of the broken axis.

Good luck and keep us updated with the results of the trim.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Apr. 23, 2003, 11:06 PM

Hi guys....I just wanted to put a few thoughts out there about weak feet and shoeing to fix them...

I have recently been reading some threads about how owners have noted that some shoeing applications...egg bars in particular...have increased or created underrun heels. The replies from the professional farriers and trimmers were interesting.

While we have touched on the frog touching the ground or being supported, I don't think we really noted its importance in getting underrun or contracted heels fixed. It is pirmary to affording the correct support that allows the heels to grow correctly! Without correct heel support, the frog could prolapse through the shoe. Additionally, an already weak heeled hoof wall would only be supported on the wall and not on the structures in between that are primary in getting the foot to open up and move back. Further loading of the hoof wall (applying forces directly to) will only cause the weak wall to continue to move inward/forward, or even crush it.

The foot does not bear weight on the hoof wall alone...it should be distributed thought the foot. The rear 2/3 of the foot should be the primary weight bearing surface and the frog plays an extremely important role in this.

In addition to this, if the toes are not adequately shortened and point of breakover addresed, and the heels brough down...then the foot cannot be returned to optimal form.

Hope this wasn't too confusing.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

inspired

Apr. 24, 2003, 10:36 AM

Thanks slb, I've already been keeping the EPSM idea in the back of my mind, however he seems to be blooming on his diet with nearly 20% fat INCLUDING oats (carbs). I did notice an improvement in muscle building on the higher fat diet, which has enabled me to condition the catching mostly out of him - although right now, with his toes so long, I don't think I can do much for him in that regard.

The think about chopping the toe off is: his axis is STILL broken. The angle of his heel is so flat, it is only about 15-20 degrees off the ground, and the rest of the tubules seem to line up with it. If his toe wasn't chopped off, his toe looks like it would be about a foot long!

Fortunately, my horse has good hoof, consistancy and growth. His feet are quite long right now, but not flat like some of the "pasture feet" I've seen.

The selenium is a good question. He does get supplimented with magnesium in his electrolytes. The vet's coming Saturday for spring shots, and I was thinking of having some blood work done...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Although not generally called for, radical dubbing of the toe would help get the foot back under him and get rid of the broken axis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can it correct a broken axis if the angle of the trim still appears to be at the wrong angle? Maybe I just don't understand.

I should also note that his hoof walls are not symmetrical, one side being higher than the other and at different angles, front and back, looking generally unbalanced. They didn't look like that 2 years ago...

slb

Apr. 25, 2003, 05:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
How can it correct a broken axis if the angle of the trim still appears to be at the wrong angle? Maybe I just don't understand.

I should also note that his hoof walls are not symmetrical, one side being higher than the other and at different angles, front and back, looking generally unbalanced. They didn't look like that 2 years ago...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sounds like your horse's feet are overall unbalanced. Look back of some of the pics that I posted and comments that I made addressing unbalanced feet. The feet should be as symetrical as possible, otherwise there is misalignment in the joints...this will eventually result in pain somewhere in the upper body or legs. There really is no excuse for the hoof wall to be unbalanced like this...the farrier must be having lots of "bad hair" days if it is.

As to changing angles through trimming:
This is done all the time...it is how a deformed foundered foot is returned to healthy form. The farrier must realize where the underlying coffin bone is and trim to make the hoof wall parallel the same planes. The angles are set by nature, but the farrier's hand changes them everytime he/she trims. Sometimes the changes are positive, sometimes (as it sounds in your case) the changes are negative.

In the case of long toes...most likely the toe is slightly dished...generally the upper 1/4-1/3 (depending on severity of deformation) of the hoof wall is growing at a correct angle. The toe hasn't really started growing at a "wrong" angle, it has started to stretch and seperate at the white line and thus the forces of the long toe have pushed it out and away from the parallel connection with the coffin bone. The connection at the bottom of the toe (depending on how severe the stretching/seperation is) is just causing problems for the horse and is not of any value anyway because it is usually damaged. By cutting it back, the leverage is relieved and the hoof wall can now grow straight at the correct angle from the coronary band. This is sometimes refered to as "unloading" the hoof wall...this relief of forces on the wall allows it to grow as it was intended. The same is true of flares that form on the side of the foot. Farriers generally understand not to leave them, it just doesn't make sense that they don't understand not to leave one at the toe...they are identical.

As the hoof grows, if the toe is kept at a proper length, it will allow the hoof to keep growing parallel to the coffin bone...the angle it was intended to be at. Once the angle of the hoof wall is back in parallel with P3, as long as the heels are the correct height, then there cannot be a broken axis.

As the toes come back, the heels will also follow...just as they did when the toes crept forward. They will need to be trimmed (many times farriers back up the toes, but do not trim heels thinking that they are too low) to help return them to the widest part of the frog. Look back up the page and find Redpony's post...it has great examples of how the hoof angles and heels can be changed in just a couple of trims.

As to the low angles on the heels...they are either crushed or underrun. There are at least a half a dozen posts with drawings on what the angles should look like throughout this thread. Since I refuse to pay to post pics...I can't do that anymore, but they are mostly already there...you just need to find them. Probably if you run a search for my name, it will be easier to find them. When the toes get out of control, the forces on them cause the heels to follow forward. This in turn generally makes the bars start to curve. When the bars straighten, then you know that the forces are balanced and the toe and heel are in correct alignment.

Hope this helps.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

inspired

Apr. 25, 2003, 06:29 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks, slb! You've been so helpful in helping me understand some of the theory in a more practical sense.

You know, before he started putting shoes on my horse's back feet, the only problems he had were some minor cracks (which I now understand was likely from his toes being left too long). They were a bit out of balance, but never any sign of dishing, etc.

I'm trying to wrap my head around all this, so that I can be an intilligent horse-owner from now on. I've taken some books on horse-shoing out from the library, and reading discussions like this one have really helped, too. Yup, this farrier has been having "bad hair days" a bit too consistantly. ...that's why both myself and my trainer are switching.

You know, he was trimming the resident ancient pony, who moves so slowly, you only see her trot once in a blue moon. He left her toes so long over the winter, she actually bowed both tendons! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Poor little girl. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif The last time he came out to trim her, he left her sooooo long STILL that she didn't even look trimmed - her owner was so frustrated that she took the situation into her OWN hands. The woman, having NO experience with trimming horses, rasped the pony's toes herself, and I SWEAR I've never seen the pony move better!

*sigh* What does it take to get a good farrier these days? My trainer and I are resulting to flying in the farrier she uses in FL during the winter...

inspired

Apr. 28, 2003, 07:16 AM

UPDATE

The new farrier won't be here for another 2 weeks, but over the weekend, I had someone else (new to shoing) come out to pull his shoes and give him a "pasture role" without taking off too much. That was the plan, anyway, but he was missing too much sole in the quarters of his hind feet that she had to do more trimming to prevent his hoof wall from breaking up without the shoes on.

The result? Well, his toes are still too long (we intentionally didn't try to fix that much), but his feet DO look closer to being balanced in back, AND his STIFLES are AMAZINGLY improved! I simply CAN'T believe how much better he's walking!!! I haven't seen him walk that well, just on his way to the pasture hay, ever!

I wish I had taken before pictures. I guess we'll see what hapens over the next 2 weeks. Now, I'm REALLY looking forward to my new farrier!

YAY! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb

Apr. 28, 2003, 08:39 AM

That's great! It is amazing how much better a horse does if he is allowed to share the load between his sole and hoof wall rather than just walking on the wall.

A lot of people ask what is all this "natural" stuff and how can it be better...it is mostly based on the premise that the current/old model of trimming (and even research) was based on the hoof wall being the primary weight bearing surface. The new or "natural" model explains how a shared load provides a better structure for the horse to walk on.

A quick analogy would be think about pressing down on just the tip of your finger on something hard. Which would feel better...pressing with just the nail or pressing with the whole tip? If just the nail (hoof wall) is bearing all the forces, then you get some pain, tearing of sensative tissues (especially with a longer nail/toe/wall), and potential for many other problems created by the loss of shock absorption. If the load is shared, the shock absorption is so much greater and there is prominant forces on the part that is attached with sensative tissues (the wall).

It is a known fact that horses treated for founder with attention to load sharing are quickly and easily healed as opposed to those that are left with a load bearing wall. The wall can never correctly reattach parallel to the coffin bone if the lamina are always being streteched.torn and the forces on the hoof are always pushing it away from the coffin bone (that is how the curved "slipper" toe is created). Additionally, if the foot is in a shared load "mode" when a horse founders, there is less change in the structures (rotation).

Thanks for the update...we look forward to hearing about the results from the new farrier! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bumpkin

May. 12, 2003, 06:30 AM

Hey this was getting shuffeled way back in the pack here..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"

inspired

May. 12, 2003, 08:02 AM

Good timing Bumpkin - I have an UPDATE!

I LOVE my new farrier. I just can't get over her. She's my HERO!!!!

In the back of my mind, I thought it was rediculous to fly a farrier all the way up the coast when there are so many to choose from at home. IT WAS WORTH IT!!!!

I swear, this was the FIRST time I've actually seen a farrier really balance hooves. I watched her very closely and she hapily showed me what she was doing, why, and what was going on with my horse's feet. I've gotta say, he methodologies were RIGHT in line with this thread! What was even cooler is that I UNDERSTOOD what she was talking about and was able to speak intelligently with her about it. She loved it.

More importantly, my horse loved it. My horse is now on his way to recovery. All 4 feet are balanced, their heels brought back to where they belong, that terrible excess length of toe brought back ALMOST to where it belongs (she could only do so much the first time), and he's moving better than I've EVER seen at liberty. The catch in his stifles is dramatically improved already.

Now, she was not just a farrier, she also does some message therapy, which I also believe contributed profoundly to his improvement. Total, she worked on him for 6 hours! She said next time wouldn't take so long, and she should have him "perfect" by the 3rd shoing. YAY!!!!

I told her about this thread, too, which she thought was neat. HOWEVER, she's asked me to not divulge TOO much about what was done until we have a complete success story to report. ...but from my perspective, it already IS a success story!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

She had a similar kind of impact on the other horses she trimmed and shod this weekend. A lot of the horses she worked on had been left with their toes too long and their break-over in the wrong spot. Many of them had narrow front feet, as well.

One thing that was really interesting for me to see on my horse's feet. His hoof walls were paper thin on the sides and super thick at the toe (which was too long). She explained that to me as being the hoof's way of trying to protect the toe from the excessive force from being too long. This, of course, explains why he was constantly getting cracks at the nail holes from the other farrier. She had to nail in very carefully in the white line in order to get shoes on the front without doing damage, and we left the back feet nekkid, hoping to encourage them to widen out over the next 5-6 weeks. All 4 feet already DID start to widen out during that 2 week period of barefootness, which was truely amazing to see. She did some cool stuff with the front shoes, too, in order to give my horse support where he didn't have any hoof. When she was done, he actually looked NORMAL.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding. My horse is now trotting around his field just for the sake of feeling good. I've never seen him so happy!

Lookout

May. 12, 2003, 05:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by inspired:
_UPDATE_

The new farrier won't be here for another 2 weeks, but over the weekend, I had someone else (new to shoing) come out to pull his shoes and give him a "pasture role" without taking off too much.
The result? Well, his toes are still too long (we intentionally didn't try to fix that much), but his feet DO look closer to being balanced in back, AND his STIFLES are AMAZINGLY improved! I simply CAN'T believe how much better he's walking!!!
Now, I'm REALLY looking forward to my new farrier!

YAY! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi. Sounds great about the trim helping your horse's stifle. If the trim is this helpful, I'm wondering why you don't just have this new person keep working on your horse, rather than the farrier that's supposed to come in 2 weeks. Why not stick with the sure thing?

inspired

May. 13, 2003, 08:05 AM

Your response came after the 2 weeks, but for an update on what happened since then and why I didn't use that farrier...

The "junior" farrier that pulled my horse's shoes just went to farrier school last summer, and last fall messed up her own horse so bad that he abcessed several times. Even SHE knows she is not equipped to handle a problem of this magnitude. ....and since the initial 2 days, he became foot sore, and his condition deteriorated rapidly. For the rest of the story, see my post above yours.

Suffice to say, the other farrier was worth the wait - my horse has NEVER looked better...

netanyajean

May. 13, 2003, 03:14 PM

Inspired, I was just curious as to where you live....my farrier does Natural Balance trims, and if you live in my area, I would highly recommend him. I live in Northwestern Pennsylvania, and he also travels to the Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh areas, as far as I know.

YoungFilly

May. 25, 2003, 05:34 PM

Hi this is the post I posted about a week ago. She is due to get reshod this week. She really seems short in front. Any ideas? Thanks!
-----------------------------------------------
Hello, I posted a while ago about my horse (Dutch WB) having high knee action. My trainer feels that her gaits could be improved by using a different farrier who specializes in dressage horses. When I first purchased this horse in September, she had platter feet. She has only been shoed a handful of time over the winter, and only in the front. She is three, is there a big chance that she will out grow this type of movement? It’s very accentuated. Its not horrible, but as my trainer put it she needs to be freer in the shoulder. She moves more up and down than springy and sweepy. Thanks

Bensmom

May. 27, 2003, 10:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:

My farrier says the opposite -- that a flare proves that that is the high side, since it is striking the ground first and flaring out to try to compensate for being too high.

So, you see, we've got a basic disagreement as to what we see and what it means. Just to recap -- this is both of Ben's hind feet and I believe that both the photos and the x-rays show high inside/low outside.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought I should post an update on the farrier disagreement issue. (I just know you all were waiting breathlessly for this!)

After chatting with the farrier group at Foxhall and getting them to review my radiographs and photos when they had a slow moment, I was able to come home and report that a Famous Farrier that my guy had read articles by, had agreed that Ben was high on the inside.

Astonishing what a difference that made! And then, last Friday, he stands behind Ben and says "ok, so in the back he's clearly high on the inside."

I did not scream, I did not beat my head on the wall, I did not say "gee, are you now going to reimburse me for the set of radiographs I shot extra to check it after you argued with both me and the vet?!!" I just smiled sweetly and asked how he came to that conclusion.

He said, as if it were the most obvious thing in the world "well, you can SEE it."

Arrgghhhh!!! I've been saying this for three months -- the vet has said it as well. The vet and I have been going nuts trying to figure out if he sees something we don't, but no, we were right all along and now the farrier is on board as well.

Thank goodness! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Finally!

So, now I just have to hope we can keep it this way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

May. 27, 2003, 11:17 AM

Ohhhh Bensmom, you must be sooo happy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

lilblackhorse

May. 27, 2003, 01:52 PM

ok you guys-I remember when this thread was small, and it got away from me. I lost my scanning abilities and was bummed I couldn't play.

Now that it's at 31 pages! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I am joining the party late---like those of you on page 6 saying that!LOL

Ok, so I am going to get the digital camera out tomorrow and take photos of Will's feet before the farrier comes. That was you can see what his feet look like and then maybe give me some concrete ideas on how we should "raise his heels" like he requested of the animal communicator http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif--anything to make his back and hips feel better.

I apoogize for only getting to pg 11--you all were busy there for awhile! I'll finish reading it later-so far I think he has decent feet looking at the photos to compare, but will be back her hopefully tomorrow...Martha or Libby I may have to email you the photos as I am not a premium member and I have no idea how to post multiple photos on one page. Thanks.....be back soon!

I can't believe this thread got so big-I am glad it did. THIS is what this bb is all about http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

aimee

Elippses Users Clique........Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group

"And how's that working for ya?" Dr. Phil

HossShoer

May. 27, 2003, 07:48 PM

Bensmom, Ya make me smile. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Gotta give big time credit for helpin your farrier through this spot.
I bet ya a latte that this works out big time for ya.
Regards John

Bensmom

May. 27, 2003, 10:20 PM

John -- you made my night! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The Little Monster got reset this afternoon, and he was great, the farrier was happy, and he hung around to fix a couple of nails we weren't happy with and gave me a backrub before he left to boot -- made me really glad I didn't beat my head against the wall literally on Friday when he did Ben http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And Aimee, I'm glad that all this stuff is actually helpful to others -- I have learned an amazing about here and am so grateful that folks are so willing to share their knowledge. At the moment, as my Paypal account seems to be on strike and I haven't mailed a check off yet, I can't post pics either, but I'll see if I have the shoe photos on this machine and I've got your e-mail address -- I'll send 'em on.

Thanks guys!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Robby Johnson

May. 28, 2003, 03:22 AM

I also need to report that the Rhodes man is now on his second reset/shoeing with a shorter toe and has had his heels cut off in an effort to correct their underrun growth pattern. His feet are really looking great. I will clean them up and post some photos this weekend.

Robby

I'm drinking a soy latte
I get a double shote'
It goes right through my body
And you know I'm satisfied

mcmIV

May. 28, 2003, 08:37 PM

*sigh* It seems like just yesterday SLB and I were wondering what would happen when this post hit the big 10K views..... would the board disintegrate? Would it be able to turn over to 5 digits without a numerical disaster?

And just look at it now! 18K+ ! I'm shocked and amazed and oh-so-proud. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

RugBug

May. 30, 2003, 04:50 PM

Okay, I'm gonna add my picts to this and bump it back to the top http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Please comment, especially if you can tell me what those ridges are on his back hooves. They have appeared at two separate times over the winter, both after sun dried everything out and then a sudden deluge brought back tons of mud and muck. They started at the coronary band, feeling like little rubbery cuticles and then grew down into ridges. He has not been unsound because of them.

This is about halfway through these shoes and I think his feet normally look better than this.

Also, please ignore the little bit of yuck in his feet. I did full set in the crossties but he was freaking out at the flash. I turned it off and the picts didn't turn out so back out for another try by the pasture with no hoofpick...oops!

Feet (http://community.webshots.com/photo/74971839/74982550UcRkJM)

RugBug

Jun. 3, 2003, 08:18 AM

Bump.

Anyone?

inspired

Jun. 3, 2003, 11:22 AM

I'll take a quick stab, but I think you'll want to wait for someone else that actually knows...

At a glance, they look pretty good. The right front looks like it could have a flare, but it's a bit hard to tell from the picture. The hinds look like there's a bit of a wave in the cornary band, but I'm not sure if that's an illusion of the hair-line. The heel looks like it needs to come back a bit, although it's hard to tell with the shoes on. The angle looks about right. I don't know anything about ridges, etc...

We've certainly seen worse on this thread! ...but really, be patient, and someone who actually IS in the know will respond. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cassie01

Jun. 5, 2003, 06:30 AM

Cripes! I'm offline for 6 weeks while moving and I come back to find this thread still going! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

So the natural trimmer guy here has done my girl once already. For the first time in a long time I am happy with how she's been trimmed. He feels very confident that the clubby foot will be fine and that I should get the surgery idea out of my head. I am getting that foot x-rayed - hopefully I can get the vet to do that before her trim next week.

The other big plus, she gets much more turnout here. At the other place she would get 5 hours max. Here she gets 15 hours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Her feet have already spread out a LOT!

What a huge relief!!! I will post photos again after she gets trimmed a couple more times. I'm sure this thread will still be here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lilblackhorse

Jun. 5, 2003, 06:50 AM

I never got the photos, but wanted to let you know the forging has improved-I do think it has to do with his back end moving more freely. He gets his "muled" heels on the back today or tomorrow.

will take photos then (he may not like the flash either!)

Elippses Users Clique........Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group, Pony Club (Graduate) Clique

"And how's that working for ya?" Dr. Phil

Riverdale

Jun. 5, 2003, 11:40 AM

Hi Rugbug,

Again..not an expert opinion, but these definitely look much better than an average shoeing job. The lines on the horses hoofs are stress lines..likely nutritional...or disease related. They could be related to shoeing and hoof moisture content but the other reasons are more likely.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

mcmIV

Jun. 5, 2003, 10:08 PM

HI.

Rugbug - I like the feet overall. I am obsessed with underrun heels, and I see little evidence of that - I guess they could be more perfect, I didn't draw on them, but they look pretty darn decent.

Java has those ridgey bumps too. His aren't quite as pronounced, but they're obvious enough. He has them in front.

I have been really wondering what the heck they are. I was expecting them to go away with new shoeing, improved soundness through medication.... nope. Fairweather once asked if he had foundered in the past because she saw those ridges. Nope, he hasn't. Or if he did, he didn't rotate.

I would agree with Riverdale's assessment that it's due to nutrition or disease... but Java is pretty freaking healthy. He is an easy keeper. He gets good quality hay and good pelleted feed. He is on MSM, Flax, Vit. E/Selenium, and sunnies, of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He is super shiny, plump, and his personality has been stellar for months. I don't buy that he has a deficiency or disease.

But obviously it's SOMETHING..... hmm.... the ridges have been present for at least 2 years. He has only been on additional supplements above for 1 year or less. The ridges are still coming down...his new more balanced and correct shoeing has been underway for 6 months.

So I'm curious about the ridges! Keep offering detailed suggestions.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

RugBug

Jun. 6, 2003, 01:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
HI.

Rugbug - I like the feet overall. I am obsessed with underrun heels, and I see little evidence of that - I guess they could be more perfect, I didn't draw on them, but they look pretty darn decent.

Java has those ridgey bumps too. His aren't quite as pronounced, but they're obvious enough. He has them in front.

I have been really wondering what the heck they are. I was expecting them to go away with new shoeing, improved soundness through medication.... nope. Fairweather once asked if he had foundered in the past because she saw those ridges. Nope, he hasn't. Or if he did, he didn't rotate.

I would agree with Riverdale's assessment that it's due to nutrition or disease... but Java is pretty freaking healthy. He is an easy keeper. He gets good quality hay and good pelleted feed. He is on MSM, Flax, Vit. E/Selenium, and sunnies, of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He is super shiny, plump, and his personality has been stellar for months. I don't buy that he has a deficiency or disease.

But obviously it's SOMETHING..... hmm.... the ridges have been present for at least 2 years. He has only been on additional supplements above for 1 year or less. The ridges are still coming down...his new more balanced and correct shoeing has been underway for 6 months.

So I'm curious about the ridges! Keep offering detailed suggestions.

martha

Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish Clique *_

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rooster's feet normally look a little better. I thought his heels were slightly underrun, but wanted to see what everone else would say. His owner is always telling me how good his feet are, but I think that's only because she's parroting the farrier and not from real foot knowledge. I started reading this thread to see what good feet really looked liked (I've learned sooooo much!), and after 31 pages, I think his measure up admirably, but that there is a little room for improvement. Doing something about it is a different story. Can't really ask for changes when I only half lease him. At least they're pretty darn good anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the ridges, both times they appeared after rain turned everything muddy. I tend to think it's more due to the weather than diet/nutrition. He's been getting the same supps for at least two years, and this is the first sign of the ridges. (he gets MSM, Biotin, Platinum Performance, and sunnies along with his Purina Senior...and alfalfa in the am, oat hay in the pm). They are slowly growing out and hopefully thing will stay dry enough so a new set doesn't show up. I keep playing with the idea of using Corona on his feet, but haven't yet.

Anyway, I reference Java when someone says underrun TB heels can't be fixed. His look soooo much better than when you started.

mcmIV

Jun. 6, 2003, 02:40 PM

Yea - they look even better now i think! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

take your pictures and draw lines all over em! show em to the owner... BINGO - PROOF!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb

Jun. 6, 2003, 06:45 PM

RugBug...
Those feet don't look too bad http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I would say overall that there might be a little underrun heel, the toe is a little long...look back over the posts about addressing breakover and placing the point of breakover just in front of the coffin bone and not at the end of the toe.

Also, check out the line of the hoof wall from top to bottom when viewed from the front. The sides look like they want to dish a little as they get to to bottom...just a little flare starting...this could be from an over grown hoof that needs trimming.

When the shoes are off, check to see if there is any white line seperation/stretching...this is a good indication of where the hoof wall is creating excess pressure from a toe that is too long or a flare (same thing).

And the lines....those pesky lines....where do they come from? That's the question of the week...

Those are typically refered to as stress, fever, or founder rings. They can be caused by any number of things: stress, changes in management, illness, changes in weather (ground too wet/dry), nutritional needs/excesses. Often they are seen after a winter that causes rapid changes in the ground. What you see half way down the foot was created from changes that took place 3-6 months ago. They are typically not something to worry about. They will grow out and you can always hope that your horse's life is so serene and unchanging that they never come back...LOL http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

MsDuch

Jun. 15, 2003, 05:03 PM

Hi,
I've been a long time lurker at the BB (since I read it at work), and have been following this monster thread on and off.

My 15 yo Tb mare normally has (I think) fairly decent feet. I've been struggling with two farriers over the past year to work on getting her to have more heel. I'd finally been making progress when, about 3 weeks ago, we moved barns. Now my mare's feet are falling apart.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/sarahbj100/lst?.dir=/Duchess+feet+06-14-03&.src=ph&.view=

1. Sand arena, sand turnouts, and hard ground on trails (didn't keep that up for long) are sucking moisture out of her feet. They're chipping up like crazy. We came from a barn with no outdoor, no trails, and t/o in indoor arena. So, presumably, her feet need to get used to it. In the 9 years I've had her, she's never had a chipping/crumbling problem, even when in similar footing conditions. I'm applying Rainmaker and plan to have the shoer put hind shoes on.

2. She was last trimmed/reshod on May 8th. I've had her on a 7 week cycle throughout the spring. Toward the end it is more noticable that her two fronts grow at slightly different angles. However, about a week ago (just over 4 weeks from last shoeing), she started looking like her LF was falling off her heel. It has continued to look worse and worse. Her shoe has also twisted slightly, and she's taken a chunk out of the wall on the inside (can't see it in the pictures).

I'm particularly concerned about the collapsing heel/increasingly long toe/poor angle because she had a slight suspensory strain on that leg a year and a half ago. I was living overseas, she was leased out. I suspect that her shoeing wasn't great (long toes and low heels) and aggravated by being turned out in deep mud.

I've been trying to get a shoer out to do her sooner, but have been unable to find someone to come on short notice. My shoer doesn't come to my new barn, so I'm callng up new shoers (understandable that they won't rush around for a new client). My new barn's primary farrier can't even get to her until Thursday.

I'd be curious in general what you all think about her feet. Any recommendations for dealing with the new dryness? Any recommendations for shoeing (since I'm starting with a new shoer it's an easy time to bring up concerns)?

We do lower level dressage, going to start doing some jumping, and hope to trail ride a bunch this summer.

Let me know if there's any other information I could provide.

Thanks!
MsDuch

mcmIV

Jun. 15, 2003, 08:16 PM

Wow - I see major underrun heels/long toes. You could probably do a major amount of good in one shoeing just cutting those toes off and bring back the heel. They could look completely different.

I think you are right to be concerned about her suspensory problem - this could easily aggrevate it or cause it again.

As for dryness, I don't know what the experts think, but I know people at my barn soaked their horses feet in water/applecider vinegar or some concoction. Now these people were obsessive weird about soaking feet every night, but I think the process had merit. If you have an unusual dryness problem it might be useful for you.

Ok - I hope my attachment works out. I tried some fake repairs to the front angles. See the current angle compared to my "fix". It's rough but you get the idea! Do you experts think the fix is appropriate to aim for?

My repair might be too upright, looking at it now that ive posted it, but I think its close to the aim, right?

THe shoer needs to set her shoes back under the heel, she needs the toe cut off and the heel brought back - more complicated than im making it sound, but thats what this thread is all about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

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