Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!) [Archive] - Page 2

Bensmom

Feb. 11, 2003, 08:14 AM

Hi EqTrainer and welcome!!

My farrier has now diagnosed me as "dangerous" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and I have you guys to thank for making me more dangerous!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb -- I'm going to go to my balance debate that is ongoing with my farrier, and then I'll gather my navicular ideas in another post (see, if I keep "talking" we will catch that sunnie thread for sure!!)

Ok, when we originally computer balanced Ben, it was done in order to find the source of his hind end pain. We found that he was very "tilted" in his P1/P2/P3 alignment -- he leaned to the outside. My farrier at the time had been struggling with why he wore down the outsides of his hind feet more than the insides and when he quit attempting to fix it with extended heels and/or trailers, my poor horse was so sore in the hips that he couldn't canter.

So, flash forward to the reset that day at the vet clinic. We reset him, cut off a lot of toe on the hinds, put him in a larger shoe and build up the outside of his feet. The change in how he moved was nothing short of miraculous and the vets were stunned, because they hadn't been able to "see" the tilt from the outside.

But, what was odd about it, is that he no longer stood "turned out" in back. He didn't look like a ballet dancer any more, and instead, stood more or less with his feet properly supporting his weight and he could actually "push" to carry his hind end. We realized, after the fact, that he had turned out his feet to balance himself since he basically bore all his hind weight on the outside edges of his feet. (Try it yourself -- if you roll your feet to the outside edges, and then turn them out, you can balance much better -- so he basically had adopted this stance as a coping mechanism and it also hid the problem) The give-away should have been that though he stood turned out in back, his hocks were not close together -- i.e. he didn't toe out from the hocks down.

Now, we are working on Buzz. He stands the same way in the rear. I asked my farrier to adjust his medial/lateral balance as we've done Ben's and see if he would be able to stand better and hopefully, see the same sort of improvement in his comfort in work level. This is NOT the same farrier that originally made the improvement in Ben. This one has been working on Ben with the benefit of the x-rays from his beginning of doing him.

Instead of lowering the inside, he lowered Buzzy's outside. My trainer freaked when she saw him walk after that, saying that now he was wringing his hocks and told me to fix it. Well, I can't see that and neither can the farrier, so we haven't changed anything yet. He was very tranqued when she saw him, so perhaps he was just drunk. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, right now, the farrier wants to lower the outsides more, and his theory is that since he lands outside of the foot first, it means that the outside is high and needs to be lowered. I disagree with this. I think he is landing outside first because I think he has the same tilt that Ben has and he is bearing more weight on the outside. It seems that it would be impossible for him to stand and strike off in the walk toed out if he were high outside, because the higher outside of his hoof would naturally push the foot to the inside, not outside as he walks.

If you have ever studied, even casually, human walk/wear patterns, you can see that the lower part of something, in the case that comes most easily to mind, a running shoe that someone wears down by listing to the outside, once it is worn, it will be lower than the inside, but it will still strike the ground outside first, because that is the way the bones in the legs lean, and therefore, place the weight.

Am I making any sense at all? Right now we've agreed to disagree, and I haven't told my farrier yet, but I talked to the vet yesterday, and he thinks I'm probably right and that the horse needs to be lowered on the inside. We are planning to shoot just an A/P view of each hind foot, because that should answer the question definitively and that will be a whole lot cheaper than either going through several resets testing the views out and dealing with the problems that may go along with that testing.

Does my theory make sense or am I just knowledgeable enough now to be dangerous http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EqTrainer -- the website for the computer program that analyzes the feet and makes suggestions is www.eponatech.com (http://www.eponatech.com) and at one time, they had a good explanation of the views needed to judge the balance of the hoof -- they have a very specific set of x-rays that they have you take to feed into the program. If they have removed that as giving out too much knowledge, let me know and I'll pull my reports and check and see what views we did to check balance.

Thanks for your insight!

Libby

slb

Feb. 11, 2003, 11:29 AM

EqTrainer, asked hubby about x-rays and he said he likes to see lateral, dorsal and caudal/palmar (same) views.

Hope that helps.

HossShoer

Feb. 11, 2003, 12:56 PM

EqTrainer & slb, might I just throw in that it's nice to have a small light wire taped to the toe, to better identify the true position of the coffin bone in the foot relative to the hoof wall. Takes out the guess work. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Also a thumb tack in the frog, about 3/8 " back from the apex of a slightly trimmed frog.
Regards John

slb

Feb. 11, 2003, 01:54 PM

Thanks for the reminder HS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Since anything but the basics of M/L balance seems a bit out of my realm, could you comment on Bensmom's questions about Buzzy?

The limit of my knowledge is to suggest that true medial/lateral balance comes from the the bottom of the coffin bone being level (medially/laterally) with the ground so that it bears weight evenly up through the distal joints when loaded. This may not always be visable on the outside, but should be evidenced by x-ray. IMO, if the foot is trimmed to the natural sole plane, the bottom of the coffin bone should be level relative to the ground resulting in internal M/L balance. Additionally, adding wedges or other leverage is decieveing and generally does nothing for changing balance of the internal structures.

What say you HS? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HossShoer

Feb. 11, 2003, 03:01 PM

slb, yeah I'm with ya on that last post, (esp the wedges)
I think if Buzzy gets dropped on the outside quarter he will be one sore pony.
It would be interesting to see him with a goob of the quick set equithane in the shape of half a shoe stuck on that lateral quarter, just to see how he moved and felt before shoeing him and building up the foot with more than just a shoe. (That's under playtime shoeing ) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Regards John

rhymeswithfizz

Feb. 12, 2003, 07:10 AM

Just wanted to pipe up from my corner to THANK everyone for participating in this thread... I am learning a lot!

I will take some pictures of my mare's feet -- she is a 13 yo TB, and has been barefoot for about 8 years. Her feet look about as perfect as any feet I have seen, at least in front. I think she has a bit TOO much heel in back... but I'll let y'all be the judges. Stay tuned for pictures!

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

mcmIV

Feb. 12, 2003, 07:22 AM

Looking forward to them fizz!

I may take some updated pictures of Java's #2 shoeing towards good feet. He has natural balance shoes on his fronts now and I took the shoes off his backs.

I am fearfull he will get his long toe and bad heels back quickly without shoes, but I thought I'd try it. He did tell his communicator he hated them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Besides, in the winter, he either needs traction (which = torque) or no shoes.... cause it's too icey here! My farrier thinks they will hold their nice shape fine....

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom

Feb. 12, 2003, 09:24 AM

HS -- the quick set Equi stuff is what we used to build Ben up on the outside to balance the M/L on his hinds. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks he'll be sore if we drop him on the outside! We are talking about shooting an anterior view to see if we have p1/p2/p3 tilt on those hind feet -- sorta just a quickie to prove I'm right on that issue.

Now that we know you aren't frozen, HS, go back and take a look at the pics we posted of Bear, which is the first one we'd be loading on that trailer to bring up if we implemented your plan.

I'll write up what we found in the Navicular Bursogram next, but the upshot of it is that his films don't look so good and proper shoeing is where we are going first to fix it.

This is cool -- Martha you did good with this topic! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby (who still thinks we ought to start an obsessed with hoof balance clique)

HossShoer

Feb. 12, 2003, 10:02 AM

Bensmom, I am froze up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
If Bear did make it up here, I'd probably break him down from the weight of the blankets and all the calks and borium on his shoes to keep him from falling down on all the GD ice we have around here.
Regards John

mcmIV

Feb. 12, 2003, 10:20 AM

Ok LIbby - how bout this!

**Foot Obsession Clique (hoof, that is)**

or even

** Hoof Fetish Clique ** That has a nice ring to it!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom

Feb. 12, 2003, 10:47 AM

Doggone it John, you are supposed to wax poetic with how you'd fix poor Bear. The vet is lobbying for the KB-N shoe and less hard for it to be combined with pouring pads. My opinion, not that anyone asked me, is that he needs 1)shorter toes, and 2) something to reduce concussion. The caudal hoof lameness article in the most recent american farriers journal was very enlightening, especially to a knows-enough-to-be-dangerous one like me. What would *you* do with him?

And Martha, I think the hoof fetish clique has a nice ring to it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 11:25 AM

Ohhhh....Bensmom...you're getting toooo good at this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I always forget that hubby recommends reducing concusion with many cases. He says that it encourages use and helps promote healing. He has found that some worse cases or older horses sometimes need this protection continued even after healing. You are so right about backing up toes. One barefoot trim group I am on has several people that applied a trim (that shall remain nameless) without success. They now apply what trims that they independently arrived at...but collectively call the LIM (less is more) trim. For the most part, all that they are doing is backing up the toes to optimize breakover according to where P3 resides, and a little exfoliating. Some still need to address bars, flares and heels, but most found that just backing up toes has allowed them to do less and less trimming.

Personally, I generally like to see the NB shoes used. There are concusion pads and other things that can be used with them. Additionally, they have a urethane shoe with a removeable bar in it that can be used on some horses. The beauty of the NB is the rocker toe and the support of the wide web and I love the idea of the bevel on the inside that prevents sole pressure.

Opps....almost forgot...besides alignment of the Ps, check to see if the coffin bone is parallel to the ground in a front view. This is most likely the problem.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 11:43 AM

Martha....I think that now we have a handle on "good feet", its time to discuss the use of shoes. Your post has raised an issue that I find interesting, yet IMO, a misconception.

Here is the way I see it: Shoes are devices...tools...like a bandaid or cast for humans. They unto themselves provide no therapeutic nature to healing. No matter what the shoe or how it is applied, if the underlying trim is not correct in balance in alignment, then the shoe affords nothing in the way of aid. Additionally, if the trim is correct, then the second step is that the shoe is applied correctly to afford a good base of support (full in the heel, wide web), and enhance breakover (rolled/rockered toe, sometimes set back). Applied properly, shoes will encourage proper direction of new growth, but the underlying trim is more far more important in that aspect.

In short, if the hoof is fairly structurally sound, generally removing the shoe should benefit growth, rather than hinder it. If the foot changes shape, then the trim is at fault...not "the foot needs a shoe". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 11:45 AM

Fizz....bring on those pics!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

HossShoer

Feb. 12, 2003, 01:16 PM

slb, I sure agree with that post on the trim.
I was going to suggest the Bear wander around on some of that sand down there, before anyone gets around to nailing some steel on his feet.
I always feel they need a little time to let things settle down after a fairly aggressive trim. That's aggressive in the "change the position of the foot, not cut till they bled aggressive." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Regards John

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 01:21 PM

HS....good idea...that sounds like just the ticket http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

mcmIV

Feb. 12, 2003, 01:51 PM

We have our own clique! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Awesome SLB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The farrier seemed pretty confident his nicely squared toes would stay squarish and his heel would wear proportionately without shoes. I figured if they started to seem long and pointed in a few weeks I would just call him in early.

Something that bugged me about my conversation with him.... I asked him his opinion on fixing the underrun heels. Java's heels are not terrible, and I think if I took another set of pics they would look mighty close to "good", but nevertheless I was/am on a quest to have them "perfect".

I asked him about cutting off the heel in order to widen out the support and allow it to grow out more where it belongs. He said, in Java's case, He feels like his longish sloping heel is somewhat due to foot conformation and there isn't a lot he can do about it except carefully measure the angles his feet are taking on each shoeing and keep his toes squared, the foot balanced and the shoe on properly if I have one.

So in other words, he prety much said what's left of Java's underrun heel was more a matter of "the way he is" as opposed to a fixable problem. Now all Java's angles were low as well, according to xrays. So he has brought them all up a bit, the back signifigantly.

And I watched him trim, and he certainly cut down the heels to some extent, obviously he wasn't totally ignoring them. So I felt better about the conversation when he was done.

I need to take pictures again.

But do you guys feel like some amount of sloping heel on a horse of 10 is the conformation of his foot and not always 100% fixable? Libby mentioned a vet said a similar thing, only it sounded like the vet said it about some *bad* heels and was advocating dumping the horse. :P

I might be imparting my conversation poorly. Like I said, he did trim all around the heel also, and he is obsessive with his little measur-er. The NB shoes look nice and he was telling me about many horses he's used em on whose feet really opened up in size and heel correctness.

Just some more questions to add, that have probably been answered 23423423 times here already. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 04:45 PM

Well, Martha, I think you asked the million dollar question on this thread. To be or not to be..."perfect" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think that we learned from the feral feet that sometimes underrun heels are "normal" and functional. Likewise, sometimes, we see domestic feet that want to run forward because of conformation. I beleive that this is where experience and trial and error come into play. Some horses need "perfect" feet to attain optimal form and function and to always remain sound. Other horse can function with imperfect feet and never take a lame step. The key is in understanding which horses need "to be or not to be" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And that comes from experience...of which I have none...only good reading comprehension and retention http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So, we will have to rely on the wisdom of HS for a better understanding of who does and who doesn't and why.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

EqTrainer

Feb. 12, 2003, 07:21 PM

Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone for the advice on what films to have shot. I am going to at least have one of my horses done, doubtful I can talk the sales horse owners into yet ANOTHER expense...

On a happy note our barn manager hauled a new sale horse to our farrier today and he came home with, amongst other things - new shoes that were two sizes bigger than the ones he arrived in!

Thanks again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb

Feb. 12, 2003, 07:28 PM

WOW...that's a big step up in shoe size...it just goes to show you how bad things can be http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Hope you stick around for more discussion...I think it will get more interesting as we go http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 12, 2003, 09:47 PM

hmmmm -- I don't think we can do barefoot with Mr. Bear, at least at this point. He is pretty lame without them, and with them, even with this rotten trim, he is only barely lame with them on, and that is really surprising considering how bad his changes look.

It is interesting that in the films taken when he first went lame, you can hardly see anything at all, and he was *really lame* and in the recent ones, there are lots of visible problems and he is only off sometimes and usually not more than 1 or .5 grade lame. The interesting part of this seems to be that the bone spurs you can see on the top of his navicular bone could have been started by a tearing away of one or the other or both of his sesmoidian ligaments. He originally went lame after crashing through a fence and he and the rider went down in a heap. They never did an u/s to look for a ligament problem because he blocked to his PDN, but it is worth keeping in mind. I wish I could go back in time . . . oh well, hindsight and all that.

I agree with you guys about the underlying trim being your most important consideration -- without a good trim, your shoes are going to be no help. But what do y'all think about the idea that sometimes, when nature hasn't provided enough, using the shoe to augment what should be there -- i.e. more support behind the heel, and actually under the canon bone on a horse like Buzz, who has long angled pasterns and is not built to properly support his front end?

Martha, that is exactly what this vet was quoting an expert as saying -- an horse with badlly underrun heels is unfixable. This local vet and my farrier don't believe that, but this vet does have some issues with the idea of cutting the heels to regrow them properly -- all he could tell me was that he didn't think it worked -- thoughts?

Thanks guys!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Ishi

Feb. 13, 2003, 12:05 PM

OK, I need foot help. This is my OTTB I got in Nov. He immediately went into the vet hospital and stayed a few feeks, almost died from severe ulcers. He's not healed yet, but moving in that direction.

His racing plates were pulled and the vet thought they had been on about 3 months. his feet were/are a mess, but keepin him alive was the prioity. So now the feet. He's not lame at all, and but the left front scares me. I just moved and do not have a farrier. He goes in to be rescoped ain a week or so, so I was going to have the clinic's corrective shoer take a look.

What do you guys think?

Love means attention, which means looking after the things we love. We call this stable management.
- George H. Morris
http://community.webshots.com/user/flycak

Ishi

Feb. 13, 2003, 12:07 PM

Here is his right front:

Love means attention, which means looking after the things we love. We call this stable management.
- George H. Morris
http://community.webshots.com/user/flycak

slb

Feb. 13, 2003, 01:24 PM

Ishi...I would say that things aren't as bad as they look. Mostly it looks like they need a lot of clean up work...taking off the dead, exfoliating stuff. The biggest problems are the heels. They need to be taken back to the widest part of the frog (generally where the straight edge of the frog becomes round). Also, if the toes were rockered, that would help get the feet back to a more normal shape.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Ishi

Feb. 13, 2003, 01:47 PM

slb,
Thank you. They do look bad. Now that he's on the road to being healthy and gaining weight, I can focus on the rest of him and his feet. I'm trying to get a good farrier to come out! Thanks again.

Love means attention, which means looking after the things we love. We call this stable management.
- George H. Morris
http://community.webshots.com/user/flycak

rhymeswithfizz

Feb. 13, 2003, 01:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
Fizz....bring on those pics!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish Clique *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm picking up the digital camera tonight (borrowing my mom's fancy one), and should get some good pictures on Saturday. So everyone please keep this topic going while I catch up! I'm really interested to see what you all think about Aspen's purdy feet... they look darn good to me, but what do I know?

I think I'll also get some pictures of Sully's feet... he's really upright in front with LOTS of heel, because we have been working with the vet to relieve the pressure on his navicular cyst, as well as help his deep digital flexor tendon to heal. For a while he was on wedge shoes PLUS a 6 degree wedge pad!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif He looked like he was on his tippy toes! Wish I had a picture of that! He's back to regular shoes, but still with a lot of heel, and will be barefoot his next trim. By the way, this is my retired eventer, and has been off since June when we found this cyst. He'll at least make for an interesting discussion.

Ooh, I almost forgot -- I also have some xrays of his feet before the cyst was discovered (the durn thing didn't show up until the digital xray), and my vet drew in some really cool diagrams showing his incorrect angles. Such that even I could understand! I will scan those in too.

Now I KNOW you are all waiting with baited breath.

'Til then, carry on!!

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

slb

Feb. 13, 2003, 06:25 PM

Fizz...what a tease! I can hardly wait http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Glad to hear you guy is getting better.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 13, 2003, 09:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
hmmmm -- I don't think we can do barefoot with Mr. Bear, at least at this point. He is pretty lame without them, and with them, even with this rotten trim, he is only barely lame with them on, and that is really surprising considering how bad his changes look.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is where picture assessments fail us...really need to be there to make these types of recommendations. I think you are doing alright Libby...just follow your instincts and get good feet on him in shoes and then I bet he might be able to go barefoot...at least some of the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is interesting that in the films taken when he first went lame, you can hardly see anything at all, and he was *really lame* and in the recent ones, there are lots of visible problems and he is only off sometimes and usually not more than 1 or .5 grade lame. The interesting part of this seems to be that the bone spurs you can see on the top of his navicular bone could have been started by a tearing away of one or the other or both of his sesmoidian ligaments. He originally went lame after crashing through a fence and he and the rider went down in a heap. They never did an u/s to look for a ligament problem because he blocked to his PDN, but it is worth keeping in mind. I wish I could go back in time . . . oh well, hindsight and all that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup...all this could present some problems in trying to keep him sound, but I am betting that with a good foot under him that he will be at least greatly improved...possibly sound for a long time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I agree with you guys about the underlying trim being your most important consideration -- without a good trim, your shoes are going to be no help. But what do y'all think about the idea that sometimes, when nature hasn't provided enough, using the shoe to augment what should be there -- i.e. more support behind the heel, and actually under the canon bone on a horse like Buzz, who has long angled pasterns and is not built to properly support his front end?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree...that is why it is so wrong for the "all horses can be barefoot" idea. If they were in the wild and natural selection provided their feet, yes...then this works. But, human intervention in breeding, management, and foot care presents some issues that simply can't be addressed barefoot. However, I didn't really see where Buzz was "weak" in his pasterns....just a little long....but, I've seen worse. You do raise a good issue though...about the support being under the boney column. The problem is, the foot is often taken or allowed to get too far forward...especially if the heels are underrun and/or toes are too long. Addressing the issue of alignment is just as important as addressing proper hoof form...although generally, alignment follows form.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Martha, that is exactly what this vet was quoting an expert as saying -- an horse with badlly underrun heels is unfixable. This local vet and my farrier don't believe that, but this vet does have some issues with the idea of cutting the heels to regrow them properly -- all he could tell me was that he didn't think it worked -- thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I can tell you is that my husband does this all the time. Every time I have him look at these pics, he just keeps saying "cut the heels down, get them back where they belong". I think HS would agree with this also. I have seen hubby take all sorts of underrun feet and get correct form in a matter of a few trims....it of course depends on how fast the horse grows new foot, but even for slower growth and really bad cases, it generally only takes a year to see optimal form.

Libby...I think that you keep dwelling on "can this happen?" You need to consider "this can happen!" I have seen it too many times to be skeptical! The foot (and horse) is an incredible thing and given the opportunity, it can recover from many wrongs that we have bestowed upon it...just think about how badly damaged a foundered foot must be...they often recover fully from that too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 13, 2003, 10:05 PM

OK...here's an OT question...

Evidently, many people are looking at this thread, but few are participating. I would like to know if they all think this is strange and unusual...hogwash...or if it has been beneficial? I don't think I have ever seen a thread viewed so much and get such little response. Just seems strange to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

artienallie

Feb. 14, 2003, 05:44 AM

Nope, I'm just speechless! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm reading this thread regularly, and LEARNING! I know I can't keep up with you guys, so I'm just absorbing. It's great, really! Keep it going!

I could post pics of my guys' feet, but both are pretty boring compared to some of the feet here. I just have a barefoot draft cross with a severe tendency to thrush and quarter flares, and a TB with typical TB feet that don't seem to grow, which makes it difficult to do anything to her feet. We did grow out a REALLY bad square-toe trim when I first got her - it made her move like a jackhammer....

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Bensmom

Feb. 14, 2003, 06:27 AM

Nah, we haven't had that many responses because I've bored them all to sleep! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have that effect on people in person too as soon as I start talking about hoof balance, you can see their eyes glaze over http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

slb said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>This is where picture assessments fail us...really need to be there to make these types of recommendations. I think you are doing alright Libby...just follow your instincts and get good feet on him in shoes and then I bet he might be able to go barefoot...at least some of the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! He is getting done around 11 today, and the owner's mother has not been able to reach the vet or the farrier, so we don't know what they've been able to convince the farrier to try. I know that this farrier hates the KB shoe the vet wants and has thus far refused to pour any horse, so I have a feeling what I want done with him won't be the result! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, we'll see -- he has been shoeing for years, and probably has a trick or two up his sleeve, so wait and see is about all we can do at this point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I agree...that is why it is so wrong for the "all horses can be barefoot" idea. If they were in the wild and natural selection provided their feet, yes...then this works. But, human intervention in breeding, management, and foot care presents some issues that simply can't be addressed barefoot. However, I didn't really see where Buzz was "weak" in his pasterns....just a little long....but, I've seen worse. You do raise a good issue though...about the support being under the boney column. The problem is, the foot is often taken or allowed to get too far forward...especially if the heels are underrun and/or toes are too long. Addressing the issue of alignment is just as important as addressing proper hoof form...although generally, alignment follows form.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If Buzzy were in the wild, he probably would have been coyote dinner when he bowed, but then again, maybe not -- he is a real fighter that one. (I just wish he didn't want to pick on *me* sometimes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) His alignment was so bad when I bought him that he had NO support under the boney column or even close to it. Which is why I think the right leg has the djd in the fetlock joint -- the concussive forces of racing along with the simple physics of having to rotate the joint from too far down in back, from no support and too far over, from too long toes. That leg is relatively straight, though and so there is just damage to that joint. The left leg had about the same turnout as Slew's, and with no support, too long toe and the crooked leg, he hit a soft spot in the track, and Riiiiiiip went the tendon. Really sad. My farrier claims that I've asked for him to have two club feet, but with the bar shoes and now the wedge on the bar lifting the angle and leaving room for the heel to grow, he is going the best he's ever gone, and fingers crossed, so far, he's been sound. My #1 goal with him is to keep the inflammation out of his fetlock joint, and controlling the rotational forces on it seemed like a good place to start.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> All I can tell you is that my husband does this all the time. Every time I have him look at these pics, he just keeps saying "cut the heels down, get them back where they belong". I think HS would agree with this also. I have seen hubby take all sorts of underrun feet and get correct form in a matter of a few trims....it of course depends on how fast the horse grows new foot, but even for slower growth and really bad cases, it generally only takes a year to see optimal form.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes me feel mucho better! I would really like to see Bear end up with better feet -- I'll let you guys know what the farrier ends up doing today . . .

Libby (who really does find this subject endlessly fascinating)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

mcmIV

Feb. 14, 2003, 06:43 AM

Well, I think people are afraid of critiques, because after all, we have control over our horses shoeing and if the feet are crappy, then its "our fault". Of course, it's never to late to open your eyes to problems!

Or, people have average looking feet and don't expect a response. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

EqTrainer

Feb. 14, 2003, 07:31 AM

I've just been waiting to have something intelligent to add (sigh)... farrier comes a week from today to do the whole barn, so that should bring up some questions and also some answers that may be worth exploring and sharing.

BTW, the horse that he did Wednesday was ridden yesterday and moves like... mmmmmmmmm.... now. I will try to take some pics of his feet, which will be needing more work to be correct, and post them. Maybe we can track the progress, even tho' I don't have pics of his previous high heels/two sizes two smalls.

I have referred a lot of people to read this thread, also... I think people are reading and absorbing. It's a good thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

betsyk

Feb. 14, 2003, 09:48 AM

I finally have a quiet morning at work... Took a bunch of pictures of the boys' feet before the farrier came last time, but they didn't come out very well.

This one shows my 14-y-o TB, and believe it or not, this is an "after" shot! I kept meaning to take some "before" pix last year and never did. When I bought him a little over 2 years ago, he came from a very rural area where there weren't many (any) choices for farriers. I honestly believe his former owner honestly believed her farrier was doing the right thing. My vet, on prepurchase, said the first thing he needed was to get his feet in shape. He had huge flares, big plattery feet with thin soles flat on the ground, and L-O-N-G toes and no heels. My farrier worked on him for about 6 months but it wasn't enough, because we ended up with major WLD in the right front. Next we spent 8 months working with the referral farrier at the vet school, who worked MAGIC and gave my horse a new set of feet. It's been almost exactly a year since we were "discharged," and his protege has been working on him since then.

When the WLD was diagnosed, he had almost 2" of toe ahead of his coffin bone. He still has more than the ideal, but he's a whole lot better. The heels still need work but show a lot of improvement. The crack in the RF is now simply a sand crack, which he will probably always have. The crack in the LF, which you can't see in this photo, gets dremeled occasionally as a preventive because I'm paranoid. He's shod in Natural Balance shoes and I'm not sure if my farrier is still modifying them; at one point he ordered size 3's because he is so wide in the toe and quarters, he can make a bigger shoe smaller but couldn't make a size 2 wide enough.

This was taken shortly before he was due to be shod, I think at 6 weeks after his last reset. His LF doesn't toe out the way it looks in the picture; he's just standing funny.

slb

Feb. 14, 2003, 10:46 AM

WOW Betsy...from what you described, you must be pleased with the progress. Sometimes it can take a long time to attain correct form....a lot depends on how fast the foot grows. Looking good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

betsyk

Feb. 14, 2003, 12:58 PM

Actually, I wrote that whole long story and forgot to ask my questions. So with your fresh set of eyes, is he "looking good?" Where would YOU go from here? I don't consider that we're done with the remodeling yet, and we are actually trying to set up a consult with the Referral Guy for his next shoeing. Anyone else been through this sort of thing? when do you decide you've done all you can and this is the best you're going to get?

slb

Feb. 14, 2003, 01:37 PM

I guess the ultimate goal would be to attain this look: Good Foot (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,7686045802,ic,Y/goodsole.jpg). However, I don't think that every foot can be expected to look this good. This is a 7yo, never shod, on optimal terrain for the horse, basically self-trimming...only touch-ups are neccessary. Notice: white line is nice and tight and smoothly and evenly follows the hoof wall; hoof wall is symetrical with no flares or other problems; heels are back at the widest part of the frog; bars are not pushed against the frog and are fairly straight and not in excess...longer than half the frog, or folded over covering the sole; frog is full and robust; heels are nice and wide; approx. 1/3 of the foot is in front of the apex of the frog and 2/3 behind...very important equation for good form and function.

Edited 2/14...just realized I make a couple of errors in my haste...the bars should be no longer than approx. 3/4 (not 1/2) the length of the frog. And, apporx. 1/3 of the foot should be in front of the widest part of the foot (generally slightly behind the apex of the frog, not at it) and 2/3 behind. Sorry if I confused anyone with this.

While not every foot can get this good....it is a goal that should be strived for. There is a lot that depends on genetics, nutrition (probably the most difficult thing to optimize), terrain, environmental conditions, and exercise. But, knowing that this is what good form looks like, then that is a step in the right direction. Aiming for that goal is the best you can do.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Feb. 14, 2003 at 09:53 PM.]

mcmIV

Feb. 14, 2003, 01:50 PM

Betsy! At first glance I thought "wow his feet look great considering what she just told me!" .... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

They do look pretty good.... Based on what I know I'd say the shoeing is pretty good.

When I looked back again, the turned left foot lets you see the heel a little better, and it's still rather underrun.

I might believe what my farrier told me, that some amount of slopey heel is just "the way they're conformed". But I think that statement only applies to those horse's who aren't perfect, but darn close, despite efforts to make them perfect.

So I suppose that's my only critque - long heel that's too far forward. Rx - trim it off SLB and HS say! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like that the shoe is set back, and his toe is squared. That's why I would think you have a concientious(sp?!) farrier who is working towards fixing them.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Dune

Feb. 14, 2003, 05:46 PM

SLB, I have a question on the "good foot" picture. (reminds me of a James Brown song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) What size horse is that foot on? What size foot is that? My question is regarding the point of breakover. It looks as if it would be greater than 1 1/4" from the point of the frog to the edge of the foot. Is this just the picture or is this really the case? I'm assuming that this is not a *huge* foot. Now, from what I've learned, I always thought that the breakover should be *shorter* than this according to the NB principles. Is this the case or have I misunderstood? I do agree that it is a beautiful foot, wonderfully balanced medial-laterally and VERY healthy looking. I have a point to make after I hear the answers to these questions, and a couple other questions for you. Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slb

Feb. 14, 2003, 06:43 PM

Hi Dune...glad you could join the discussion...you have posed a good question.

This is, I believe, an "average" size horse. You are correct about NB principles indicating approx. 1 1/4" from apex of frog to breakover. However, the confusion lies in where the point of breakover is. It is not at the end of the toe...at the wall...but back under the toe at a callused area that lies just in front of the tip of the coffin bone. I have drawn a line on the "good foot" to indicate where that might fall on this foot....doesn't mean that I am accurate as I would need x-rays to be so, but you can see the callus, therefore I am guessing that this would be the point of breakover for this horse. In a mustang, or a barefoot horse that gets adequate movement, the toe will wear a "rocker" upward from the ground at about a 15-20 degree angle...thus enhancing breakover. For those who don't know...this is what we are trying to emulate by rockering the toe, or applying an NB shoe...that is part of why proper application of these shoes is so successful. It is imperative to get the point of breakover back under the foot where it belongs...instead of out at the end of the toe where it generally is...in order to facilitate returning the foot to a more optimal form.

If I had of known there was going to be a test...I would have studied http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS...just thought also, that this is a trim in progress...maybe the toe needs some shortening...although it doesn't seem that way.

Just thought...I should also add my disclaimer in case you didn't see it in the earlier posts...I am not a farrier or trimmer...I have never applied NB or anyone else's principles.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Feb. 14, 2003 at 10:06 PM.]

mcmIV

Feb. 16, 2003, 02:23 PM

I have new PICTURES. 6 weeks have gone by since this thread started - and thus I have Trim #2 to post.

I put them side by side to see for myself if there is increasing change.

Unfortunately I don't think I got any good ones of the front - the angle is too far from the front, and therefore his heel looks MORE slopey then it might if it had been dead on the side.

However it looks like the picture has the same problem from December, so they are comparable. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm thinking his rear's are looking pretty darn good. I like his heel much better, and I bet in one more trim it will be perfecto. Comments?

The front.... well, I think I'd like to see the heel shorter and less slopey - so we will see what happens in the Trim #3 - maybe I gotta bug the farrier more firmly. Comments?

I wanted to post my Self-Portrait of me and my friend Java taken on the same day - but I had coldweather boogers in my nose. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Dune

Feb. 16, 2003, 07:36 PM

Thanks, SLB, for the info. I figured that I must have missed something in the translation. That makes a lot more sense to me now. I had a farrier trying to apply NB methods to trimming my horse and it just never worked. I think that this was one of the reasons why. I now have a wonderful farrier that does understand where correct breakover should be and it looks like your "good foot" picture. Lucky me! Thanks a lot!

Bensmom

Feb. 16, 2003, 08:24 PM

Martha -- I see a tremendous difference! Good job -- I was expecting to think "hmmm -- put back shoes back on" just because I have a real "thing" about either shoeing all four or none at all, but I didn't think that at all -- the back feet look great!

What a difference good feet make!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 16, 2003, 09:05 PM

I agree with Bensmom...that's nice progress on Java. I don't think you could ask for much more. Looking forward to seeing the next reset. Curious...do you think he is happier without the back shoes?

Now...there is one thing I see that I am not quite sure of. The hairline angle on the back looks good, but on the front, there seems to be a small bump in the hairline (in the quarter) that wasn't there before...maybe an illusion, delusion, confusion, or some other "usion" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Perhaps something to check out. If it is there, it needs to go..created by pressure. The heels still look a little high...need to come down some...but you should be very happy with overall progress. Just make sure that you can still see progress as time goes.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 16, 2003, 09:10 PM

Dune....glad to clear up the confusion. The sad reality is that so many farriers that try to apply NB principles seem to have the same confusion. This is why there are some real horror stories of NB (mis)applications.

Glad you got a good farrier and are seeing feet like they should look. Please stay onboard and ask some more questions... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

mcmIV

Feb. 17, 2003, 06:59 AM

Well as I said, he told his "animal communicator" that he hated his back shoes. :P So of course, you can just hear me saying "We have to take them off, he said he hates them!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif J/K

But I did ask the farrier, and he did like the idea. One very interesting observation that correlates perfectly with removal of shoes....

He had gaping hock sores. Huge bloody holes that just wouldn't clear up, and I was at my wit's end with bulking up his bedding, cleaning them, covering them in goo......

So he has been on adequan, but on the same Saturday I gave him a Legend Shot and also had his shoes removed.

Within 4 days his hock sores were closed up and scabbed over. Is it shoes or is legend or is it coincidence? Those back shoes had "corks" in em for ice, and I wonder if they were causing some discomfort, maybe not only for laying down - but he twists his right hock and I bet that existing twist combined with winter corky grip was putting major torque on him.

I'm going to check the coronet band.... I think I need more pictures for my files. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Bensmom

Feb. 17, 2003, 08:33 PM

Martha, fwiw, when Ben wore tiny road studs behind 24/7 (before his feet were balanced) he got hock sores on a regular basis. They have gone away for the most part, but now that we are on self-care board, I can put in as many shavings as I like, so he's bedded pretty deep and just with back shoes on, I haven't had the problem.

And, hopefully tomorrow I'll have pics of x-rays to post. The vet called tonight, and the shots he took of Buzz's hind feet are Very Strange. It appears that the bottom of p3 points in one direction, whereas the coffin joint itself leans in the other. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

So, I'm going off to the clinic to see them and we are going to study them together, Cause folks, that just don't make sense. Only on the $450 horse would we find such a thing. Why am I surprised? The little monster is allergic to GRASS, after all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Update on Bear: The farrier wanted to make only one minor change at a time, so he's in the same shoes, same wedge pads, but the toes are rockered and the heels appear to have been cut some, as they don't look quite as underrun. I would have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at this problem, but he's been shoeing longer than I've been alive, so we'll see.

Hopefully pics of the x-rays tomorrow. In the meantime, any ideas?

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 17, 2003, 08:56 PM

Libby...please explain "allergic to grass"...what happens?

Could Buzz have a rotated coffin bone with remodeling at the tip which would appear like the bottom goes one way and the joint another? Is this seen in a side view or toe view? Can't wait to see the pics.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Some farrier's like to be very conservative when making these kinds of changes, others are not so. My husband has found that he has never lamed a horse by making several changes at once, but then that is probably easier said than done. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

HungarianHippo

Feb. 17, 2003, 09:07 PM

ooh, this is like a confessional. "you think YOUR horse had bad feet?! Look at MINE! " http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Anyway here is a pic of Kip's sad little feet when I bought him. Kip is a 16.2, 1400lbs heavy boned horse--he could barely walk he was so sore. I'll have to dig up some current photos. My farrier is my hero. Kip's finally able to go barefoot this winter--it's taken 5 yrs to get to this point!
Kip's front (http://community.webshots.com/photo/40866309/42913026IbIPLP)

Bensmom

Feb. 17, 2003, 10:01 PM

Cool, other night owls http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

slb -- Buzz is allergic apparently to, among other things, bahia grass. When the seed heads are long on the grass stems, the poor little guy makes a bee line for the grass, stuffs his nose in it, and immediately begins sneezing, sniffling, and trying to scratch his poor nose. He hasn't figured out what causes this yet, so he still goes through it.

The vet's office said that he'd probably test positive to so many things that we would be unable to remove from his environment, so we just put him on the antihistimine in his feed last year, and it really helped. Unfortunately, I bought a batch of alfalfa a couple of weeks ago that was really dusty, and appeared to be really blooming when it was cut. It took me several days to realize that he was once again sneezing, sniffling and coughing. I only give one flake of alf at night, so it wasn't until I rode him that I realized his allergies had reappeared. I took him off of that batch ofhay a.s.a.p, but he's still having some issues. The vet did several tests today, and trachea and lungs seem ok, just during exercise we sniffle, sneeze and get desperate to itch our nose on stuff. <sigh> We are working on it, slowly but steadily. It is pretty bad when you talk to the vet around 6:20 p.m. and the first thing he says is "I'm not avoiding you, really!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The young cousin of the guy that I bought him from is now working at our barn and since he started him under saddle, is a great source of info about him. I asked him on Saturday if they'd noticed allergies before (I was trying to see if maybe they were getting worse with age or better) and he told me that no, they'd not seen that, but while he was racing, he got lots and lots of colds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif They figured that it was from riding to the track and back in a stock trailer and coming home damp, rather than it being environmental in general. <sigh> They still don't quite understand why this guy bowed. When I mention his feet and balance, I get that "hey, this is a kook!" look. I guess that would make people feel responsible so it is easier to blame it solely on the track surface. (This is local bush track racing -- not recognized racing)

I'm totally in the dark about the x-rays -- how often do you see rotation in hind feet? I'll find out more in the morning.

HH -- I can't wait to see Kip's remodeled feet. They looked like they were pretty bad -- kudos to you for getting a good farrier to get him fixed!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 17, 2003, 10:14 PM

Bensmom...have you tried putting him on 2-3 oz of flax meal or the equivilant in seed per day? I had a horse with all sorts of allergies...not runny nose or sneezing, but itching, oozing sores stuff. It all cleared up in a couple of weeks with no recurrance just from providing the missing essential fatty acids in the flax. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Although rotation in the rear is not as common as in the front, it is not rare either.

WOW...HH...was someone paying to have a farrier trim this horse? Or was this a case of hoof neglect? Actually, I have seen worse when a "farrier" was attending. Do you think he could have been a good swimmer with those flares....he probably could have walked on water, never mind swimming! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 19, 2003, 06:18 AM

slb -- you must be trying send me over to that *other* thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif -- I may try the flax and see if it helps. I've got to do *something*

Ok, Buzz just gets weirder and weirder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
The chiro thinks that the joint was slightly rotated when the x-ray was taken, and that if we reshoot with him straight, the coffin joint will match the angle of the bottom of the coffin bone. It is the right rear that looks like it has a different angle to the top and bottom of the coffin joint.

His x-rays are online at:

http://community.webshots.com/album/62846873HWOGvh

along with the photos of his feet, so that you can zip between the x-ray and the pic of the foot, which is pretty cool.

He has a broken coffin bone in his right rear -- unhealed fracture of the lateral wing -- just EXACTLY where Ben's is -- same foot, same wing, even approx the same place on the wing. That is just too weird.

A bonus to the person that finds which bone has a zipper in it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm not kidding -- one of the vets yesterday said he'd be easy to do surgery on -- just unzip him!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And, just as an interesting aside -- the hip that we lowered the rear foot on at the last reset was so "hot" that he tried to kill the chiro as he adjusted him. He's never had a hip problem before, but his femur head was waaaaaay out and very uncomfortable. And we only trimmed a little bit off the outside of that hoof. Also, the chiro remarked that most people would have injected that right front fetlock several times by now, and that addressing the physical stress on the ankle, by shortening the toe, and putting on the wedge bar shoes is really helping. Cool!! He didn't even have any pain in it yesterday, and the fetlock was rotated at every adjustment before we changed his angle and added the support of the bars -- isn't physics neato? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 19, 2003 at 03:48 PM.]

slb

Feb. 19, 2003, 11:31 AM

Ohhh...Bensmom...you've made my day....now I won't get any work done http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And, yes...you probably should go read the "other" thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

mcmIV

Feb. 19, 2003, 04:52 PM

Left rear long pastern! I win! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

How on earth did that get in the picture?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb

Feb. 19, 2003, 06:59 PM

OK Martha...just becasue you won doesn't mean that you get off the hook! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Get busy and make some comments on those pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 19, 2003, 09:46 PM

Yay, Martha! Unfortunately, all you win is the right to comment first on the x-rays! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ok, while you guys are meditating on Buzz's x-rays, I've got another problem. A big one.

You know how pleased I've been with the original adjustment to Ben's hind feet, and how fixing that gave me a new horse? (I've told the story ad naseum now -- its pretty bad when your own stories bore you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Anyway, he's broken again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

He had almost a week off due to different reasons, and after seeing the chiro yesterday, I actually get to ride. We are three weeks into this reset, and I don't know that I've ridden him but a couple of times since he was last done -- I have a friend that has moved back home, and she has been helping me to get both boys worked, so I've not sat on him but once or twice myself, but I have noticed that since his return to work, he's been tripping. A lot.

So, back to yesterday. He was pissy. Really bad when I asked him to actually *work* and carry himself. Now, Monica rides well, and I don't think she'd let him get away with this crap, but she hadn't ridden him since he was hoof balanced, and what I had yesterday was at least better than what he used to be, so maybe she just didn't realize how bad he was when she was last on him.

I asked for canter last night and immediately had a sick feeling. He can't canter. And I mean CAN'T. When I insisted, he bucked and kicked out. I knew in my heart what was wrong, but I worked a bit more, found a couple of good canter strides and then quit.

My trainer called as I hacked back to the barn, and someone brought me the phone -- I told her about my ride and we decided that although the vet wanted me to give it one more week before he did a lesson, that I'd bring him for her to take a look.

He still couldn't canter to the right, and only a little to the left. She rode him, and I was HORRIFIED by what I saw. He is moving like he waddles. Terribly wide behind.

Put him on the concrete, got out the pics and began to poke around. Unless I am terribly mistaken my farrier has either allowed his feet to go back "natural" or he has started lowering the outsides instead of the insides of his hind feet.

Amazing that it could make such a difference, isn't it? We are right back where I was in the Fall of 2001. I wanted to cry as I sat there and watched my beautiful boy waddle in trot, and desperately try to canter. My trainer didn't even get frustrated with him -- she said it is clear that he just can't do it.

The vet is a sweetheart -- he saw my number on the caller i.d. on his cell phone and called me right back around 8 or so -- he is going to do a lameness evaluation behind and check stifles and hocks to make sure there isn't something else going on, and perhaps shoot x-rays of Ben's back feet. We need to re-shoot that anterior view of Buzz's right hind anyway.

It looks as if Ben's angle has also dropped behind, toes too long and medial lateral is unbalanced again. I love my farrier, but I wished he really believed me. Unforutnately, he wasn't my farrier when we first found the problem and started making the change, so he doesn't know just how bad Ben is as his old self.

At least we think we found the source of the tripping, though. He's pulling himself along on his forehand since he can't step through and carry himself behind, and that is making him trip.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I want the new, improved Ben back!! I was so afraid that there was something wrong with his annular ligament, but I was pretty sure all along that the imbalance behind was back.

Feet sure are complicated!

Libby (I'll be sure to let you guys know what happens!)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 19, 2003, 11:13 PM

Awwww...Bensmom....I'm going to go back and look at Ben's feet...maybe can get hubby to look in the morning. It definately sounds like the farrier is slipping. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Sometimes, this is way to easy to do. The foot gets into its own growth pattern and you don't realize it until its too late. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'll post when I think I actually have some answers...where HS when you need him?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 20, 2003, 05:01 AM

You know what's weird? The hairline on the back feet looks about even, but when you measure hoof wall length to the ground on the inside and outside (I'll try to scan a pic that shows how the Metron program measures this) he is pretty uneven. I don't see how that is possible, though I will say that that would explain how this was so hard to catch the first time. I mean, two vets and my farrier missed how unbalanced he was behind.

My farrier says this morning that he hasn't changed anything that he's aware of, but I think Ben is also too long toed behind and his angle is too low.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif So far, I haven't cried yet, but I'm still thinking about it. I did call in sick to work so that I can take them to the clinic. We'll see what we find . . .

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 20, 2003, 10:42 AM

Bensmom....don't get too upset...this can all be fixed again.

OK....I can see M/L imbalance in the hairline. I think we all noted this before and you said no, must be image distortion. The reason that you might not see it, but the program measures on side longer than the other (and this is common in these cases) is that one wall will be slightly flared out to the side and the other one grows straighter down. Check with a straight edge on the pics and see if this appears to be the case.

The right side seems to be steeper and have more heel than the left side (this could be "natural"). But, the higher heel still worries me. However, with that said, I think that the reason is because the left foot is more underrun.

Just throwing some ideas out there for now...I want to take a closer look later when I have more time.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 20, 2003, 01:30 PM

Bensmom...here's Ben's feet with lines drawn on them so you can see the imbalances. I used the exact same lines for the sides of the feet and superimposed them on each wall. The left side was done first and then flipped to create the same line at the same angle going the other way...does that make sense...you know what I mean....right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The lines at the hairlines are also the same...copied from one to the other.

On the side views, these again are the same lines on the front and back hoof walls...again transfered from one foot to the other. The hairline angles are also the same lines.

So, without words, expecting that an optimal foot would be "straight" along these lines, can you see how imbalanced the feet are? Can you see the problems that the trim is creating? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Opps...forgot the pics...

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 20, 2003, 01:55 PM

Here is a comparison of Java's feet so you can see how they have improved in just 6 weeks...left side original, right side newest.

Note the hairline has straightened out. Also, the hoof growth has changed angles and is starting to look much improved.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

JenL

Feb. 20, 2003, 02:40 PM

Bensmom- wow those x-rays were really cool.

Actually this whole thread has been really cool. I just sat down and read the entire thing. Now I'm thinking about posting some pics of my TBs feet. They're definitely not the greatest,but are much better since we've owned him. Well I'm going to go see if I can find my mom's digital so I can take some pics of Billy's feet.

All that is gold, does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost.The old that is strong does not wither. Deep roots are not reached by frost.From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring, renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.~J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.

slb

Feb. 20, 2003, 02:44 PM

CE....glad you joint us...the more the merrier http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
We'll all be waiting to see your pics!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Cruzinwikelover

Feb. 20, 2003, 03:47 PM

This is such a funny topic! I love it!

HossShoer

Feb. 20, 2003, 04:10 PM

slb, hi, I've been watchin, and you're doing a great job. I didn't have any earth moving comments to add. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Libby, I just feel so bad for Ben's recent regression. Sure looks like "busy farrier foot" to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Take a deep breath and just get on his case to get back to what ya had goin that worked so well. You know this horse inside out and ya care a whole lot about his well being.
What if you offered to pay your farrier on a hourly basis? Just so he can take the time in his mind to get around the problem, instead of gotta get to the next place to make the $$$$ for that truck/mortgage/whatever payment.
I thought he was into goin the extra on this pony.
I still think that if Ben could go just a few days barefoot in the sand to let those burps in his coronet band straighten out,then trim him and hot shoe him would help.
Regards John

mcmIV

Feb. 20, 2003, 08:51 PM

HS -

"I still think that if Ben could go just a few days barefoot in the sand to let those burps in his coronet band straighten out,then trim him and hot shoe him would help."

In a general way, I fully understand and agree that barefeet solves many problems.

But can you more specifically explain why, physiologically, pulling shoes for even a short time "straightens out the bumps" in a coronet band?

What actually happens to *cause* those bumps, and what happens to fix them.... I believe Java had/has similar coronet-burps. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Libby - all will work out..... at least Ben is under the care of a foot fanatic that will strive to help him instead of someone else who would "work him through it" despite discomfort. I know it will come together for you!

Hey I like that - Foot Fanatic..... we could make that our clique name too, just to be wishywashy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

*spring*

Feb. 20, 2003, 09:26 PM

I went out and took some photos at the end of my 'roll' on the digital camera of hooves, just for you guys! They're the feet of a 20y/o Trakehner x Arab mare who's a former eventer and is now teaching me the ropes of eventing and first level dressage. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(sorry its not on more level ground/clearer and cleaner..was sort of last minute)

http://www.geocities.com/tingastar//gaylafeet.html

- To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -

[This message was edited by *spring* on Feb. 21, 2003 at 12:35 AM.]

mcmIV

Feb. 20, 2003, 09:31 PM

Spring ! check yer attachment!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

*spring*

Feb. 20, 2003, 09:34 PM

fixed! (decided to stick 'em on a page instead, sorry 'bout that!) And how exciting, a reply already!

- To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -

Bensmom

Feb. 20, 2003, 09:39 PM

Thank you guys so much for the support -- I'm tired and cranky and my farrier is pretty unhappy with me, but Ben's hinds were reset today and his movement was better -- not 100%, but better immediately afterward.

I have the x-rays that I took at the clinic today to put up tomorrow and slb -- I love the drawings! I want to throroughly look tomorrow and come back with questions.

HS -- would you take a look at Buzz's x-ray of his right hind foot? The top of the coffin bone is high outside and the bottom is low outside. Should we further lower this horse outside/inside/not at all? He was Very Sore in his right hip at his adjustment on Tuesday and that is after a couple of weeks in his new trim which put him a bit lower on the outside. The left looks like it is a candidate for lower inside, but no one can agree what to do with the right hind on Buzz.

Thanks guys!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 12:35 AM

Martha....hope you don't mind my jumping in here to comment on your question to HS...

Although some farriers at some point seem to learn the concept of a "straight" hairline and how to get rid of those "bumps", it was a farrier named Lyle "Bergy" Bergeleen who explained the idea in his book "Hooftalk: The Hairline Tells It All". Probably one of the most significant contributions to modern farrier. You can get the book from his web site or Amazon for under $20.
http://www.hooftalk.com/

The reason that the "bumps" happen are because uneven distribution of load results in groups of horn tubule being displaced upwards putting pressure on the hairline and creating distortions. Simply put...an unbalanced foot causes uneven load distribution and the hairline bulges from the forces.

I don't really know why the foot will react quickly and return to a straighter hairline...I'll let HS tell you about that...but, I suspect that it is because we are dealing with a rather flexible structure (evidenced by its mechanics during loading) that acts much like plastic. Therefore, removing the solid support of the shoe from under the foot allows release of the pressure (unless the terrain is too hard) and lets the horn return to its normal postition resulting in the hairline doing the same.

Hopefully HS will exand on this.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 12:39 AM

Just another OT thought...
As we fast approach 9000 views, do you suppose that it can even register 10,000....doesn't look like room in the column for it. Guess we will just have to wait and see http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

EqTrainer

Feb. 21, 2003, 02:59 AM

Up early this morning, *getting ready to go meet the farrier* <VBG> got a new digital camera last night. So I will have a go of it today. We have just changed farriers back to the one I used for 5+ years with much happiness, this will be the first time he has done some of these horses, and some of them he did before for me. Last guy was good.. but not consistent. Much like Ben's mom is suffering with. The stress of knowing there's a problem and knowing you have to have a confrontation about it had become too much for us and so we have made this change back. Will try to do some before and afters, I am really excited about this!

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 03:03 AM

Ohhh...EQT...better than a cup of coffe to start the morning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 21, 2003, 08:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So, without words, expecting that an optimal foot would be "straight" along these lines, can you see how imbalanced the feet are? Can you see the problems that the trim is creating?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I *think* so. You are absolutely right that we thought the flares were distortion from the camera, and they aren't, they are real. I hunkered down in front of his rear feet last night (I really love my horse -- he didn't squish me!) and looked, and they both flare on the outside.

HS said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Libby, I just feel so bad for Ben's recent regression. Sure looks like "busy farrier foot" to me.
Take a deep breath and just get on his case to get back to what ya had goin that worked so well. You know this horse inside out and ya care a whole lot about his well being.
What if you offered to pay your farrier on a hourly basis? Just so he can take the time in his mind to get around the problem, instead of gotta get to the next place to make the $$$$ for that truck/mortgage/whatever payment.
I thought he was into goin the extra on this pony.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, this where I'm so frustrated. I don't think it is a case of him being in a hurry with Ben. He won't even shoe another horse, even one of mine on the afternoon that he's done -- he feels he can't concentrate and do a good job if he does that. The problem is more that we have a fundamental disagreement as to how the foot works and what it is doing biomechanically.

For example. He says the flares mentioned above, which are on the outside (lateral) of his hind feet, show that the horse is high outside. He also insists that because the horse lands high outside when he walks that he is higher on the outside hoof wall.

That is just simply not always true. The radiographs taken yesterday show that this horse is, no question about it, high on the inside of both hind feet, the right worse than the left.

http://community.webshots.com/album/64343045nhTrXP

The first four pictures in that album are Buzz, retakes of what we did on Monday, and then the other four are Ben's.

To give him a massive amount of credit, my farrier came out last night at 5:30 and did what I requested, though he was damn unhappy about it, and made me end up doubting myself. In fact, Ben is a little sore on his left hind, so we may have trimmed him a tad bit short.

A bit more info-- the vet could not find any indication of hind end lameness -- i.e. nothing hocks, stifles, etc. He was sound, but not tracking up when we jogged him on the straightaway. He wasn't back sore, and wasn't sore anywhere else that we could find. When we lunged him, his balance was so bad that even the vet said he'd think an EPM horse if we hadn't seen that there were no other typical symptoms.

So, the farrier made the changes and immediately, the horse strode off in the barn aisle, overtracking by a good bit. He was much better to ride -- not perfect, but much much much better. I could sit his trot, and he could canter. It wasn't his best canter, but it felt more like an unfit horse (which he is) than a horse that physically could not do the work.

So, where does that leave me? With a much better balanced beast and an unhappy farrier. And doing more research into biomechanics, so I hopefully will be able to convince him that I'm right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Libby - all will work out..... at least Ben is under the care of a foot fanatic that will strive to help him instead of someone else who would "work him through it" despite discomfort. I know it will come together for you! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Martha and everyone, thank you for saying such nice things. I was feeling by the end of this ordeal yesterday as if I were too picky and considered a bit stupid because I'd spend this kind of time and $ to get him right, 'cause after all, he's only a horse, right? Plenty more where he came from . . .

But then, I rode him with his feet redone and it made me cry. When he's balanced behind, his movement is like magic, and dressage is actually fun.

It seems to me that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. He moves great and is less sore when the hind feet are done like this, so why does my farrier refuse to believe?

It is especially frustrating, because in all other respects, he is fabulous. Likes to learn, read and research and is a terrific machinist. For the most part, he's always done what I asked, or explained to me why it can't be done. He's taught me to pull shoes and to nail my own on in an emergency, so I can't figure out why we are at such loggerheads over this issue.

John, am I running into conventional wisdom problems? Is there an absolute somewhere that says if the horse lands outside first, then that is the high side of the foot? If so, then this horse is definitely weird!

Thanks for the input and the support . .

Libby (who has been DREAMING about horse feet)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 09:38 AM

Bensmom....like you got nothing better to do...but could you take some pics of the resets? Also, could you take pics of his heels...looking for imbalance there also.

Here is conventional wisdom about addressing M/L balance:
http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/balancingnormalfoot/balancingnormalfoot.htm

Here's another site with some M/L info at the bottom.
http://www.aro.co.za/source/News/asian/Ware.htm

I have a similar problem horse. He has limb deformities that actually twist the leg first one way, then the other...therefore, he "looks" straight in limb. However, he toes out. Conventional approach would leave him highly imbalanced. Seen this as my husband has questioned several farriers about how they would trim him. Hubby holds the foot loosely, in a natural position bent up under the body. This tells him where the foot acturally falls...turned in! He then trims to address this toed in problem and the horse is sound and balanced. So yes, some horses can be "weird" and convention doesn't work at all.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:45 AM

slb -- thanks for the links and I really don't mind taking more pics -- I don't have anything more important to do with my time!! (Must remember to take solar view of Buzz's wedge shoes too!)

Spring -- Gayla is beautiful! I don't know that much, but I didn't see much to dislike in her foot. These other guys are much better than I am at this, but depending on where her heel actually is, that foot looks good. Ok, someone with a more technical eye, what did I miss?

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:49 AM

Bensmom....It probably won't help much with shoes on, but can you get some solar views too?

You are developing a good eye...don't discredit yourself...it takes time, but it comes. It's when the variances are slight that it makes it tough...like Ben. Can't add anything on Gayla...except what a cutie...her feet look good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Backstage

Feb. 21, 2003, 03:33 PM

Hi, I haven't read the whole thread but, of course, have read enough to get me wondering.

Could anyone take a look at these feet pictures and let me know what you think?

http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/517866294

There shouldn't be any pop-up adds, and I'd thought I'd save some BW this way instead of attaching them.

The white feet are the hind legs, the black are the front, the one good solar is the left front. I ended up taking them in the barn where the lighting wasn't ideal, since I kept getting pushed into a snowbank outside.

Thanks, I'd really appreciate it.

By poor, I mean we might have to share a helicopter with another family.

MyShadeOfPink

Feb. 21, 2003, 03:59 PM

I'll play... This was when she had no back shoes... we moved to more rocky property, and she now has front shoes and pads and back shoes

Ignore the message.. was showing a friend the difference in my mare'sf eet since i started using rainmaker

::Jennie::
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."-Invisible Monsters

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 04:32 PM

OK kids....here is a link for all the naysayers, nonbievers, and skeptics. This is the most current research released from U of Michigan Foot Studies Lab. I recommend that everyone...even if your horse is sound...read this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

*spring*

Feb. 21, 2003, 06:57 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone! Uh oh.. this could be dangerous.. I might become addicted to this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Gayla is a cutie, isn't she? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My instructor used to compete her when she was younger and said that she's always had very tough feet. She's been without back shoes for a few years.. got them put on just a few weeks ago because the sand was wearing away at her toes and feet too much. Anywho, thanks for the comments!

- To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -

Bensmom

Feb. 21, 2003, 09:12 PM

Pics of Buzz's wedge bar shoe:

http://community.webshots.com/album/31517240kUwBiNzacx

are in this album.

slb -- I didn't shoot Ben's as he was already full of hoof packing before I remembered. I'll get him tomorrow.

I'll be back to re-read and be ready to discuss after some sleep! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:00 PM

Backstage....pics weren't the best, but from what I could see...looks good to me. Can't really say much else, except happy riding.

MyShadeofPing...really can't tell too much from that pic. Could you get more shots straight from the side and a solar view if possible? Looks like there might be some problems, but its hard to tell from the angle.

Thanks for stopping by to play...this is a tough game to be in...but beneficial to our four footed friends http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:07 PM

Bensmom...just looked as Buzz's solar views. Ya know...I'm getting old and feeble minded (and lazy)...this has been a long lived thread. Could you refresh my memory about why Buzz is in wedge bars? These views look excellent. I'll have to look back at his other pics and x-rays to get some more ideas.

This is starting to get confusing....too many horses to keep straight. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:12 PM

Ok, just looked at Buzz's side views...he's a little underrun. Does the same farrier do Buzz and Ben, or is it a different farrier?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 21, 2003, 11:20 PM

Wow...don't tell anyone, but 19...oh, only 18 more posts to go to catch the sunnieflax thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wow...who would have thought!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Hilary

Feb. 22, 2003, 04:55 AM

An update on Clancy's lovely feet - my farrier was surprised (had to call her 4 times to convince her) that his feet had grown sufficiently since Jan. 1 to need a trim. He did!

They are still very flexible so on his right front, he had a pinkish line at his white line. She said stress on his laminae from the foot flexing too much every time he steps. His hind feet, however, were in very good shape - thicker sole, heels doing well, and while one still looks vaguely off balance with a flare on the other side, she gave him good marks.

She also (hallelujah) is coming around to the concepts of bondo and pour-in pads. She's never had a horse like him before, and I think her resistance came from not having ever needed the new technology. But working with him for the past year and with her mentor who used to do tons of eventers (including mine) she's coming around to how this stuff can help a horse.

The plan is that come the end of March when I can put him back into regular work (weather cooperating), he'll have pour in pads and a bit of bondo on the fronts to help his hoof be more stable, rather than flexing too much at every step, and promoting the cracks. She's never seen a horse develop cracks that start at the top like his.

Does this plan sound sound?

I would like him to wear pads just because of all the rocks around here, and he did not last year because we worried that the additional movement of the nails caused by regular pads would even further weaken his hoof walls, and he'd lose shoes. This plan worked, he didn't lose shoes, but I think there were times when pads would have made him more comfortable.

Bensmom

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:13 AM

Hilary -- It sounds like you will be really pleased with the pour-in pads. I wonder if you'd need both? I wonder if pouring him at first with the equi-build (the black stuff) would give you the stabilization you need, without needing to do the bondo as well. Ben was the bondo foot king at one point, and we found that once we started pouring him, he grew more sole, and hoof wall, and his whole foot is more stable and we haven't needed any bondo in ages. The Equi-build is a much firmer pour and we did two resets with it at first, to improve his feet and then moved to the Equi-pak, which I love. One of the unexpected benefits of it is that when he does pull a shoe, it stays in his foot and keeps the hoof wall from disintegrating. The only time he's lost a pad or had it tear was when he was in a pasture that had some buried hay string and he managed to catch that across his heel and it slipped under the pad and cut it when he took off. I always had problems with the different bondo materials staying on the hoof, particularly in a wet spring or summer.

slb -- I wondered that too -- if we had too many horse feet floating around!!

Ok, Buzz is in wedge bars because he is pretty poorly conformed in front. When I bought him, he stood waaaay behind his feet, so to speak. On his left front, he has a hideous old bowed tendon (the leg turns out about 15-17 degrees in front without a little correction and yes, he is a cousin of Slew! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and he had lonnnng toes and really low heels.

The farrier trimmed him the first time, put fronts on the second time, and I was really unhappy. So, I met with the vet and we decided to shorten the toes and set the shoes back -- farrier claimed I just wanted a second horse with a club foot, but he did it, and then stated that I was right, that was what this horse needed.

So, we go along, he puts himself to work in the pasture (gotta love those T'breds! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and he comes up lame, like really lame. So, we believe that he's strained his suspensory, but nothing shows on u/s, so we do stall rest and turn him back out after about 3 weeks. Plays in the pasture for a while, and boom! He's lame *again*. This time we x-ray and the films don't look bad, but vet decides that there is probably arthritis in the joint, based on the amount of effusion in the joint, so we inject him and rest him.

He's better but not 100%, so I start really thinking about this -- i.e. I am dreaming about horse feet (I think there is a pattern here!) I realized that his boney column support is still bad, even with the short toes and farther back breakover. It occurs to me that to rotate through its motion, the fetlock joint is still having to go too far forward over the long toe, and worse yet, dropping way too far to the ground, since there is no support under it at all. Therefore, anything more than w/t work is going to probably aggravate a joint that is low on lubrication at this point anyway.

So, I ask for a shorter toe and we decide to see if the bar shoes help with his support issue. They do, but he is still having an occasional flareup in his ankle. At this point, he is also on NAG injections, feed through joint stuff, and I was getting ready to try to put him to work. So, right after the AAEP convention, I got together with our vet that went to all the foot stuff that was available down there, and we looked at his feet/conf really hard. We decided he still had a low/slightly underrun heel, so I asked my farrier if he could build these shoes into wedge shoes (I HATE wedge pads and though that would have helped the ankle, it would have further crushed those heels).

So, what he did was to take the eventers that he wears, and weld the steel bar across the back, adding steel and tapering the wedge just so. He did a beautiful job, and it has had two benefits that we can see so far.

First, his ankle is finally standing more over his foot. He's been back in almost daily work (he doesn't do much, since he doesn't KNOW anything) but some days he's worked pretty hard, and the ankle has not flared up yet (I feel as if I am jinxing myself!) As we got started back to work, I did bute him lightly (1 gram at bedtime) if he worked really hard, just to be careful. He hasn't had any bute in a while, and seems to be doing ok. The second benefit to this shoe is that while his heel isn't really floated, it has been given room to expand, and darned if it isn't growing down to meet the bar. We'd like to encourage the heel to do what the bar shoe is doing and that is our goal -- to one day not need them. I don't know if we'll get there, but we are trying.

I wanted this type of shoe on Bear, who is the navicular horse, but his farrier doesn't believe that the wedge on the bottom of the shoe works -- like the KB shoe- he thinks that the wedge will just sink into the ground and not do what it is intended to do. I can see that argument, but it is obviously helping my horse and must work for others, or the idea wouldn't have been developed.

I realize that I am neither a vet nor a farrier, but it seems that applying some basic idea of physics to this horse has really helped him. The vet is stunned we have not had to re-inject that ankle, and if the time comes, I will, but I'd rather avoid doing it if possible.

Libby (who will take Ben's new rear feet pics later today when it stops raining -- hey, Martha, can we do a file that puts x-ray views next to feet pics? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:32 AM

What to do on a wet rainy Saturday morning?

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:33 AM

I hope this ain't too big. Gotta run meet my vet in 20 minutes. No time to change it.

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:34 AM

RF Solar

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:35 AM

LF Head On

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:35 AM

LF Side View

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

Robby Johnson

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:36 AM

LF Solar - pay no attention to all the gunk in the hooves. In a hurry and it was turnout time.

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

mcmIV

Feb. 22, 2003, 09:59 AM

Libby - Yes to xrays! I think that would be a very nice tool.

Tell me who to use and what feet!

Robby - IMO Rhodey's feet look similar to Java's in terms of degree of underrunedness (wow, what a word!).

I was looking most at his LF side photo - which really looks familiar! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rhodey's LF side (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,5066047,ic,Y/Left_Front_Side_View_Smaller_Brighter.jpg)

Java's Side views (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,2306025,ic,Y/Feet_Compare_FEB_2003.jpg)

I'm thinking this underrunedness is not "terrible" compared to what I commonly see everywhere, but it's workable!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Feb. 22, 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

Ponio

Feb. 22, 2003, 10:07 AM

Because this is the "official" hoof care thread I thought I'd ask this question here:

I recently had my horse's back shoes pulled because he finally has angles he can stand on without wedges after a year of corrective shoing. My question is should I still oil the back feet? I have heard that it makes the feet soft and pliable and I don't know if soft is a good thing for a foot without a shoe...

mcmIV

Feb. 22, 2003, 10:16 AM

DOes oil really do anything? I always figured that was one of those things that we do to make ourselves feel better, but it just sat on the foot and washed off.

It seemed like if a foot was going to be brittle and dry, a little external oil isn't going to fix it. It needs to be fixed from the inside out. And if a hoof isn't cracked and dry, hey, thats the way nature made it!

My opinion, because I tend to be a minimalist in terms of "things that pamper", is that it's not doing anything for the health, just making them look nice and also giving you a good opportunity to *see* his foot regularly cause you probably take a lot of time to clean it off, unlike some of us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Or, if you for instance, ride in an arena filled with salt, putting hoof lotion liberally all over it is necessary to keep the salt from sinking in to his heels and coronet and drying it out - but thats an external factor that isn't happening to most of us.

What do the experts think about oil/lotion?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

EventGurlie

Feb. 22, 2003, 07:27 PM

After reading all these things about feet and everything its just making me more concerned about my own horses feet. When I originally bought my mare her feet were in HORRIBLE condition, i mean chopped WAY too short w/ too small shoes on top of that and mis-shapen feet w/ all different angles, she also only had about 4mm of sole as we had found out later w/ x-rays, her hind feet had almost no heel at all too, and they were just pretty awful all around. Well its been a year and they are now appearing pretty normal but I am not completely surewhat exactly is considered "normal". I've owned this mare for a little over a year now and we are on our 4th farrier. Farrier #1 was Great and was definately the one to take the cake for getting her feet on the right track. but when i moved barns he was not willing to travel that far. So along comes farrier #2 who liked to leave 'em long in the toe and w/ this farrier she started getting flares and we just werent happy with the job so along comes farrier #3 who shaped her feet bettr and did a good job so i thought..but he decided he didnt want to travel that far either so then we have my current farrier who said "that she has pony shoes on and they were way to small...so her feet look pretty good right now and her hind feet look the best they have ever looked..but what is with the squaring of the front toe? The second farrier and my current farrier have done this with her and im not sure what the purpose of it is? She does have a tendency to rip her shoes off so i dont know if his is a reason they do this? I dont know about what farriers to trust anymore and which ones do thebest job..ahh i hate this part of it...but i will try to get pictures of her feet (solar, side, and head on) in the next couple days. thanks in advance

~Nicole~

MyShadeOfPink

Feb. 23, 2003, 07:59 AM

Posted by slb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>MyShadeofPing...really can't tell too much from that pic. Could you get more shots straight from the side and a solar view if possible? Looks like there might be some problems, but its hard to tell from the angle.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll try to get some shots this week. She gets her tootsies done monday so they'll be all spiffied up. I'm very happy with my farrier. He laid everything out to me, and sat me down and told me why he was doing things. He explained me me why he wantd to shoe my mare a certain way because she's so prone to navicular changes. I'll get back to you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

::Jennie::
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."-Invisible Monsters

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 12:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
Hilary -- It sounds like you will be really pleased with the pour-in pads. I wonder if you'd need both? I wonder if pouring him at first with the equi-build (the black stuff) would give you the stabilization you need, without needing to do the bondo as well. Ben was the bondo foot king at one point, and we found that once we started pouring him, he grew more sole, and hoof wall, and his whole foot is more stable and we haven't needed any bondo in ages. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bensmom...you're right...generally all that is needed to to stablize the foot and the rest will heal, strengthen, and grow. One thing that needs to be said about putting full support of any sort on the bottom of the foot...when the foot is supported in this method, it should be realized that there is a chance of resulting pressure points. These points can cause abscessing, sole corium damage, or other problems. The best thing to do is use hoof testers to find any sensative spots and relieve those particular places to prevent damage from pressure.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Ok, Buzz is in wedge bars because he is pretty poorly conformed in front. When I bought him, he stood waaaay behind his feet, so to speak. On his left front, he has a hideous old bowed tendon (the leg turns out about 15-17 degrees in front without a little correction and yes, he is a cousin of Slew! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and he had lonnnng toes and really low heels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure that this is just a "conformational" fault? I agree that a twisted leg is a problem...and can obviously be genetic. However, when a horse stands under himself or behind his feet, then it is generally more likely a foot form problem. I have even seen horses so over at the knee that they could barely walk become sound and straight in leg and alignment in a few months.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The farrier trimmed him the first time, put fronts on the second time, and I was really unhappy. So, I met with the vet and we decided to shorten the toes and set the shoes back -- farrier claimed I just wanted a second horse with a club foot, but he did it, and then stated that I was right, that was what this horse needed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I think that it is becoming apparent from this thread that this is the way to treat most pathologies. It was his long toes that were causing his heels to run forward and thus the whole foot moved forward. Here's hoping the farrier learned that this is a correct foot form and didn't go away thinking that it was just something that "this" horse needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
He's better but not 100%, so I start really thinking about this -- i.e. I am dreaming about horse feet (I think there is a pattern here!) I realized that his boney column support is still bad, even with the short toes and farther back breakover. It occurs to me that to rotate through its motion, the fetlock joint is still having to go too far forward over the long toe, and worse yet, dropping way too far to the ground, since there is no support under it at all. Therefore, anything more than w/t work is going to probably aggravate a joint that is low on lubrication at this point anyway.

So, I ask for a shorter toe and we decide to see if the bar shoes help with his support issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good thinking!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> They do, but he is still having an occasional flareup in his ankle.....and we looked at his feet/conf really hard. We decided he still had a low/slightly underrun heel, so I asked my farrier if he could build these shoes into wedge shoes (I HATE wedge pads and though that would have helped the ankle, it would have further crushed those heels).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good thinking again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>First, his ankle is finally standing more over his foot. He's been back in almost daily work (he doesn't do much, since he doesn't KNOW anything) but some days he's worked pretty hard, and the ankle has not flared up yet (I feel as if I am jinxing myself!) As we got started back to work, I did bute him lightly (1 gram at bedtime) if he worked really hard, just to be careful. He hasn't had any bute in a while, and seems to be doing ok. The second benefit to this shoe is that while his heel isn't really floated, it has been given room to expand, and darned if it isn't growing down to meet the bar. We'd like to encourage the heel to do what the bar shoe is doing and that is our goal -- to one day not need them. I don't know if we'll get there, but we are trying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is exactly the premis behind correctly applying wedges...and it should work. How long has he been in the bar wedges? If the farrier is correctly addressing the heels and not just letting them sit there and do "their" thing, then his trimming should encourage correct downward growth (rather than forward) and it should happen relatively quickly...within a few months...unless the foot is growing slowly (like in the winter).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I wanted this type of shoe on Bear, who is the navicular horse, but his farrier doesn't believe that the wedge on the bottom of the shoe works -- like the KB shoe- he thinks that the wedge will just sink into the ground and not do what it is intended to do. I can see that argument, but it is obviously helping my horse and must work for others, or the idea wouldn't have been developed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, logic would make us believe that this is the case. However, I think that Ovnicek's studies revealed why this works. He discovered that feral horses on soft ground develop something like a "hook" on their heels. It's hard to explain, but the heel isn't really high, but has more height to it in the rear in the form of what appear to be "hooks" (because of the scooped quarters that lead into them). These "hooks" break the ground surface and do sink....a system that is very similar to the exterior shoe wedges (my hubby useds bolts on each heel sometimes...even more chance of sinking). The facinating thing was that the heels were "highest" on the soft terrain horses and non-existant on the hard terrain horses...their heels never break the surface and land on top of it instead. The medium terrain horses had a heel somewhere in between the two extremes. The results were that regardless of the terrain, the working angle of the foot (from the dorsal hoof wall to the ground) evidenced no significant difference between the different terrain/hoof types.

Is this begining to make more sense all the time? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 01:02 PM

5mgn and Martha...this is an excellent issue to discuss in a foot thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

First a disclaimer....this is a highly subjective and controversial subject and the following will be my opinion only...

There are several reasons to apply hoof dressings...or not to....but that is the question http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

First, I would warn that any dressing or oil that is applied directly to the hoof wall is most likely to hinder than help. Generally it seals out moisture and prevents the hoof from "breathing", "drinking", and otherwise normally functioning in that manner. Sort of like the difference between blankets that breath and those that don't.

Second, IMO, if you need to "oil" the hoof wall, it is best done from the inside rather than the outside. Adding essential fatty acids (omega 3s and 6s found in flax and sunnies) is a far better way to address the issue.

And finally, if the environment is extremely dry and you need to address the issue, then there are a couple of ways that you can do this. Long term, like for desert terrain, provding a soaking area near the water tub or else where (but one that utilizes natural behavior to encourage soaking) is the best way to address hoof dryness. For short term applications...like when the ground gets dry during midsummer heat spells...then natural applications of oil that are high in essential fatty acids (like fish or flax) applied to the coronary *only*, is the best and most natural approach.

If the foot is healthy, and the environment is supportive, then I never soak or apply hoof dressings. However, if there is indications that there is an issue with either, then I address it in one way or the other (soaking pool or hoof dressing). I don't generally consider small surface cracks something that need to be addressed. However, if the crack goes deeper, or there is excessive chipping or other problems, then I first look at form and function before even considering that there might be an issue with "over dryness". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I didn't address some of your questions...ask again...I'll catch it in the next round http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 01:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EventGurlie:
..but what is with the squaring of the front toe? The second farrier and my current farrier have done this with her and im not sure what the purpose of it is? She does have a tendency to rip her shoes off so i dont know if his is a reason they do this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the "squaring" of the toes that you are seeing is from cutting them back to address two issues: long toe and point of breakover. Shortening the toe in this manner is sometimes called "extreme breakover" and is used on horses that have very oblong...long toe/underrun heels...feet. It is generally something that needs to be done for a period of "healing" time (several months to a couple of years) and then, the foot will begin to look more round and "normal" as it gains optimal form and function.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I dont know about what farriers to trust anymore and which ones do the best job..ahh i hate this part of it...but i will try to get pictures of her feet (solar, side, and head on) in the next couple days. thanks in advance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I think that as owners start to gain an understanding of correct form and function...something we used to leave up to the farrier....that we all face this delima. I think that as horses have become less expendable...as companions/friends rather than considered livestock....we are starting to want to take charge of their care and we want to learn how to go about it correctly. This is leading to some very interesting shifts in how we view what is optimal care vs just adequate care.

Waiting for pics....

~Nicole~[/QUOTE] http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 01:16 PM

Bensmom....don't remember seen a reply to this...does the same farrier do Ben's and Buzz's feet?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 01:18 PM

OK guys...if I cheat here, we can catch the sunnie/flax thread.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 01:26 PM

Hey guys....can you all vote in the foot poll I posted? Thanks...

Can you all tell that I am bored today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 23, 2003, 08:32 PM

slb -- you can't be bored, you've spent the afternoon analyzing my posts and Buzz's feet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Bensmom...you're right...generally all that is needed to to stablize the foot and the rest will heal, strengthen, and grow. One thing that needs to be said about putting full support of any sort on the bottom of the foot...when the foot is supported in this method, it should be realized that there is a chance of resulting pressure points. These points can cause abscessing, sole corium damage, or other problems. The best thing to do is use hoof testers to find any sensative spots and relieve those particular places to prevent damage from pressure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, a good point. We did find that Ben was a little tender footed for the first couple of days in the firmer pour material. It didn't last long, but shoot, there were parts of the sole of his club foot that hadn't had any pressure on them in *ages* so it wasn't much of a surprise. We have not had, (knocking on wood) problems with bruising or abcessing under this pour -- I wonder if it is because the equi-pak is so flexible? Hmmm -- as my vet would say, except that he is forbidden to use this word in relation to my horses -- Interesting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Are you sure that this is just a "conformational" fault? I agree that a twisted leg is a problem...and can obviously be genetic. However, when a horse stands under himself or behind his feet, then it is generally more likely a foot form problem. I have even seen horses so over at the knee that they could barely walk become sound and straight in leg and alignment in a few months.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a really good question, because, now that you mention it, you don't look at him and go "wow! What long sloping pasterns" If I can remember, I'll take a pic of his leg and see what you guys think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Yes, I think that it is becoming apparent from this thread that this is the way to treat most pathologies. It was his long toes that were causing his heels to run forward and thus the whole foot moved forward. Here's hoping the farrier learned that this is a correct foot form and didn't go away thinking that it was just something that "this" horse needed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, no. He seems to think it is an aberration that just Buzz needs. <sigh>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Yes, this is exactly the premis behind correctly applying wedges...and it should work. How long has he been in the bar wedges? If the farrier is correctly addressing the heels and not just letting them sit there and do "their" thing, then his trimming should encourage correct downward growth (rather than forward) and it should happen relatively quickly...within a few months...unless the foot is growing slowly (like in the winter).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He seems to be growing heel downward, and has been in the wedges only four weeks, I think. I'll have to look back in this thread, 'cause I posted on the night we put them on him. His heels look so much better, so hopefully it is working.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Is this begining to make more sense all the time? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so! But, between this thread, the posts on the Horsescience board and all the articles I printed yesterday, my nightmares will definitely be about hooves! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Bensmom....don't remember seen a reply to this...does the same farrier do Ben's and Buzz's feet?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm. And until this last problem with Ben, he's been delightful to work with and happy to try everything we've needed. Unfortunately, Ben still isn't quite Right, and I'll ask about that in a different post.

Thanks for putting support behind my idea to support Buzzy's boney column. It was my idea, and it seems to be helping. The little monster tore a shoe off yesterday, though, and sure enough, his ankle was a little warm yesterday evening. So, #1 get the inflammation out, so he had bute in his bedtime snack, and he was pretty quiet in turnout today -- and the ankle seemed fine tonight. We'll know for sure when the shoe goes back on. I did get to leave the farrier his favorite message "We Found The Shoe!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Feb. 23, 2003, 08:56 PM

Bensmom...now I know who you are...you got some great toys...do you like the Rayteck? Hubby uses something similar. Did you get your video yet...how was it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 24, 2003, 06:08 AM

I LOVE the Raytek -- unfortunately, it isn't perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It doesn't automatically find the problem, but it has helped to monitor that annular ligament. I have not gone through my video yet -- I let the vet have both for a while and had to steal them back -- since I did that, I haven't been home awake long enough to make it through 90 mins!

I lost my whole other post about Ben last night when my provider went AWOL, so in a nutshell:

How do you know when you've cut a horse too short in the toe?

We went to less than 3" on his rear feet -- maybe even 2.5" -- the radiographs showed that this was appropriate, but now I'm really doubting myself. He was resting the left rear foot after he got trimmed, so I packed him with a hoof packing based in icky-thamol, for three days and got a totally negative response to the hoof testers on both hind feet last night, but he still isn't quite Right under saddle.

The tough thing is that he isn't fit, and so that may be part of what I'm dealing with. But, I still have a nagging feeling that this is more than that -- the vet did find a positive response to flexion on the right rear leg -- about a 1 on a 1-4 scale, so maybe he does need his hocks injected, but I hate to do that if it isn't necessary.

Thanks!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Hilary

Feb. 24, 2003, 06:18 AM

slb - when you say pressure points under the pour-ins, do you mean they can create them, or just compress something that is already going on in there, and doesn't show up b/c there isn't anything compressing from the outside.

So when you say you need to relieve them, do you make a hole in the pour-in, or a divot in the sole?

I'm excited to see if they help. Do you recommend equi-build/equipak? One thing the farrier is very concerned about is the "quality of life" for the sole when pads of any kind are used - she dislikes not being able to see it and mentioned there are clear products. I can't really imagine that being able to see through a pad would really be of much benefit - it can't be crystal clear, but want to assure her that all will be OK.

Bensmom

Feb. 24, 2003, 06:25 AM

Robby,

I finally got to sit down and go back over Rhodey's feet -- slb, I'd like to know what you think, and HS, if you are out there lurking, please correct my amateur ramblings!

On the right front, on the side view, the toes don't scream at me that they are too long, but it does appear that the foot is too far forward and the heels are quite underrun. I would imagine that a radiograph will show you a broken back hoof axis and I'd love to see a higher up photo so we could see where his boney column is in relation to his hoof. On the front view photo, it appears, and this may be distortion, that there is a slight flare on the outside of the hoof and the coronet band seems to back this up -- it is very slight though, if it exists at all. I'd be interested to check the medial/lateral balance on him as well.

On the left front, the heels look more underrun to me than on the right. And for some reason, the toe looks longer to me on this foot as well. Again, not much, and since I'm spending so much time with this stuff, I may be seeing things, but I also see what may be slight flare on the outside of this foot as well.

From what you said on the other thread, it sounds as if your farrier is willing to work with you, so what I'd recommend would be to shoot a set of AP and lateral radiographs, and sit down and see what you have. You also will want to check and see where the support for his leg falls -- I'm going to hazard a guess that most of his weight is being carried by his heels, and it isn't centered over the widest part of his frog, which can not only mean that his fetlocks are rotating too far with every stride (i.e. not having a support system under them) but it also strains the ddft, the coffin joint and the navicular, so it can set him up for problems. If you can get this right before he really enters work, I think you'll have a much sounder event horse.

Libby (who would like to issue the standard disclaimer that I probably have NO IDEA what I'm talking about! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Dune

Feb. 24, 2003, 08:28 AM

Hilary-
I have been a customer of Equi-pak more times that I would like to admit...can you say expensive?! My experience was that the sole was actually in better shape than without it after a shoeing. Since it "seals" the hoof, it's not like using a regular pad and when you remove it, you don't have the thrushy, soft foot problem. Hope that helps!

Dune

Feb. 24, 2003, 08:32 AM

Bensmom-
Regarding your question of whether or not it's possible that your farrier went too short while using the Metron trimming suggestions, the short answer is YES..it is possible! My farrier(s) used that system and that is one of the problems we had. It may or may not end up being your problem, but I did want to let you know it IS a possibility. It is a great idea in theory, but is not perfect, and you still have to have a farrier that can perform the trim/shoeing job for you. I just don't see that it is any more helpful than just taking the x-rays and shoeing/trimming from those. Just my opinion, of course. Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bensmom

Feb. 24, 2003, 09:00 AM

Dune -- thanks for your experience -- this time we didn't run the pics through the program, but just used the radiographs and the vet's eye to determine how much to shorten the toe. We shot the pics with the shoes on, so that gave us a really good idea as to where the bones are in relation to his shoe.

And my experience with the equi-pak has been the same as yours. His sole is actually in better shape, and his frog, which was very desiccated, is actually looking like that of a normal horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He has also grown a thicker sole, I would imagine because some of the pressure from the ground has been transferred up to the foot. His sole is so concave on the club foot, that without the pour, neither his frog nor his sole would ever get any ground pressure. I pour him everytime and will continue as long as it isn't harmful to him.

Or until I go broke, which is a possibility! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

EventGurlie

Feb. 24, 2003, 07:09 PM

Ok well I got my feet pics now.. I put them all on my webshots page for easier viewing...Some of them aren't the best shots but i tried to do my best and got front, side, and solar views of each foot. Her hind feet are underun but they are actually better than they used to be. But just wondering what your opionions on everything are..also the new farrier has only done her feet once so far and already put on a bigger shoe.
Addie feet pics (http://community.webshots.com/album/64724727GOeqUn)

~Nicole~

J.Way

Feb. 25, 2003, 09:23 AM

mcmIV,

My horse has started getting hock sores too despite a fastidiously clean stall and lots of shavings. He has never had this problem until about 2 weeks after he got the ice "corks" too. Coincidence? He doesn't have any soundness or stiffness issues and gets Equinyl CM for prevention. I will see what my farrier has to say.

mcmIV

Feb. 25, 2003, 10:48 AM

Fozbein - interesting "coincidence"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Java had sores before the corks, but also had unresolved stifle.hock problems.... I think the corks came in and prolonged the sores when the stifle was fixed. Now with the corks off and the problems treated in addition to maintaining the stall they are pretty much scabbed over.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

slb

Feb. 25, 2003, 12:40 PM

Well...no mystery anymore...when it rolled over to 10000, the column just got wider...gee what a disappointment. But, we have changed the "face" fo this bb forever http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 26, 2003, 06:34 AM

Hey, slb -- this is pretty scary -- leaving the real amateur to discussing the posted feet . . . Have you lost all enthusiasm since we passed the sunnieflax thread? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Anyway, fwiw, Eventgurlie, this is what I see:

Left front: Toes look too long, but the heel doesn't look bad. On this foot, as well as all the rest, I'd look closely at the medial/lateral balance, as all four look a little tilted to the outside to me, but that may be just a camera trick.

Right front: The heels here look a little underrun and the toe too long here as well. Again, I would check the medial/lateral balance.

Left hind: The heels back here look a little more underrun to me, and the medial/lateral balance a little more off. Again, it may be a camera trick, but it appears that the frog even sits at an angle.

Right hind: I see an underrun heel, and almost a flare on the outside of the foot, which depending on who you ask can mean that he is high outside or high inside -- the dip in the cb suggests though that it is in fact, leaning.

Ok, Martha, slb, HS -- are you still out there? Am I right, wrong, or just utterly misguided?

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

mellsmom

Feb. 26, 2003, 09:29 AM

Bensmom-

Didn't the chiro come BEFORE you got the back feet fixed? Wouldn't it be nice if he just needed re-adjustment :-)

FWIW, we were sound yesterday :-)

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

EventGurlie

Feb. 27, 2003, 04:07 PM

Bensmom,
I definately see what you're saying. I always knew that her front feet medial balance was off b/c thats her bone structure (leg doc w/ very good reputation said we would just live w/ her like that and it shouldnt cause too much of a problem)but i never really noticed that the back feet were off center either. Also the underrun heels i know what you're saying I dont know if that has to do w/ the fact that she was in training at the track(i know they like to trim their feet like that)? The toes may look a little long b/c she is due to get her feet done this weekend! But thanks! and waiting for more opinions on her feet

~Nicole~

slb

Feb. 28, 2003, 10:00 PM

Geezz guys...I do some work for a few days and you let this thread grind to a hault! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Well, lets get back on track and get things "a movin' and a shakin'" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hilary:
slb - when you say pressure points under the pour-ins, do you mean they can create them, or just compress something that is already going on in there, and doesn't show up b/c there isn't anything compressing from the outside.

So when you say you need to relieve them, do you make a hole in the pour-in, or a divot in the sole?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, the pour-ins don't normally create the pressure. It is that the spacial orientation of the coffin bone is generally not correct, therefore there already is internal pressure that needs to be considered. Without considering this, corium/solar burising can occur. The best way to test for this is to apply hoof testers and then remove or thin the area where the pressure points are revealed. Generally, this is in the area in front of the apex of the frog to the toe.

Making a divot in the sole would generate more problems because the sole is already compressed at those points, so further thinning would result in weakening it and probably more pain.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm excited to see if they help. Do you recommend equi-build/equipak? One thing the farrier is very concerned about is the "quality of life" for the sole when pads of any kind are used - she dislikes not being able to see it and mentioned there are clear products. I can't really imagine that being able to see through a pad would really be of much benefit - it can't be crystal clear, but want to assure her that all will be OK.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must confess, I am not very up on all the pads, buid-ups, wedges, or even pour-ins. My main focus is in understanding hoof form and function and how best to trim to attain it. Shoeing doesn't interest me much and I don't have much more than a basic understanding of application...I can tell you if it looks like it is shod correctly, but I can't really tell you how to apply these things to attain a goal.

If you read www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) info on their application of dental impression material, I think that will give some insight...but I am not sure if they comment on trimming out the pressure spots in the download...it is in the video. Check under tech support/downloads/EDSS impression material app.

I agree with your farrier, the quality of life for the sole is very important. But, equally important is the support of the coffin bone and frog pressure to encourage correct mechanisim and improve circulation in the foot. I also agree with you that I don't really think that there is any material "clear" enough to really see what's going on underneath.

Hope I answered all your questions...if not, just ask again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 28, 2003, 10:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
Robby,
On the right front, on the side view, the toes don't scream at me that they are too long, but it does appear that the foot is too far forward and the heels are quite underrun. I would imagine that a radiograph will show you a broken back hoof axis and I'd love to see a higher up photo so we could see where his boney column is in relation to his hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your'e developing a good eye Bensmom http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Here's a couple of things to consider: See how the hairline goes up a little at the toe and curves down a lttle at the heel? That needs to be straightened out by adjusting the bottom to take the pressure off....cutting back the toe a little and cutting down the heel...hence making it go back to where it should be. It is long in this direction \ rather than the usuall case of high heels in this direction | ...does that make sense? Thus trimming to lower it will also move it back. (I know you know this Bensmom, but this is for the benefit of others...heard some complaints about this getting too technical).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>On the front view photo, it appears, and this may be distortion, that there is a slight flare on the outside of the hoof and the coronet band seems to back this up -- it is very slight though, if it exists at all. I'd be interested to check the medial/lateral balance on him as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, questionable as to distortion and angle, but there are possibilities.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>On the left front, the heels look more underrun to me than on the right. And for some reason, the toe looks longer to me on this foot as well. Again, not much, and since I'm spending so much time with this stuff, I may be seeing things, but I also see what may be slight flare on the outside of this foot as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Think I would have to agree again...but again distortion and camera angle come into play and may present something that isn't there. I also think that the left is slightly longer and more underrun than the right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>From what you said on the other thread, it sounds as if your farrier is willing to work with you, so what I'd recommend would be to shoot a set of AP and lateral radiographs, and sit down and see what you have. You also will want to check and see where the support for his leg falls -- I'm going to hazard a guess that most of his weight is being carried by his heels, and it isn't centered over the widest part of his frog, which can not only mean that his fetlocks are rotating too far with every stride (i.e. not having a support system under them) but it also strains the ddft, the coffin joint and the navicular, so it can set him up for problems. If you can get this right before he really enters work, I think you'll have a much sounder event horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, this is getting a little technical....we don't want to scare people http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, you raise some good issues and things that should be of concern to all that have underrun heels and feet too far forward.

Bensmom...you spend too much time reading! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 28, 2003, 10:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dune:
It is a great idea in theory, but is not perfect, and you still have to have a farrier that can perform the trim/shoeing job for you. I just don't see that it is any more helpful than just taking the x-rays and shoeing/trimming from those.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dune, you raise a good point. I evaluated the software for hubby thinking he may want to use it for tough cases, but in all reality saw what you did...x-rays provide much the same info.

IMO, it provides farriers that can't copy the x-ray info onto the real foot with a way to do that. I do see a need for it in some cases, but generally not.

And, I agree...you can still have a farrier trim incorrectly no matter what you use to determine correct balance. The key still lies in the farrier understanding the way to accomplish a trim that correctly balances and aligns the bones.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 28, 2003, 10:37 PM

Ok...that's about it for tonight...I'll come back to discuss some of the other questions tomorrow night (or is that tonight).

Dune...thanks for your contribution...I wish more people would comment with their experiences what worked or didn't work. We have a pretty narrow view here.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 1, 2003, 01:00 AM

OK, so I'm back...Bensmom's question about cutting the toe to short was bugging me, so I wanted to address it.

Yes, you can cut the toe to short, that's when you hit blood. So, now that I gave the simple answer, here's the complex one. If you try to match pastern angles (which are not fixed), if you assume the toe as the point of breakover, or if you "dub" the toe back (like make a verticle cut across it) with no regard for the sole, then yes, the toe can be cut to short. What happens...changes in stride/gait, possible soreness/lameness, and possible tripping/stumbling.

How to avoid cutting the toe to short...
Trim to the live sole plane. Pay attention to the calous at the tip of the coffin bone. This area needs to be left intact. Removal in any way means weakening of the structure that supports the coffin bone. This is generally the location for the point of breakover. The hoof should maintain a natural 1/3 (front) 2/3 (rear) ratio from the widest part of the foot (just behind the apex of the frog. Cutting behind that ratio or cutting into that calous result in to short a toe. Dubbing vertically can result in cutting into that area. Leaving the toe, placing the shoe back to optimize breakover, and rasping the toe in a 15-20 degree upward angle from the toe calous provides a natural toe that appears short, but is correctly balanced and will blend into the point of breakover and the shoe.

So, Bensmom...did that help? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 1, 2003, 01:38 AM

Bensmom...here's another thought that might be easier to understand...this is a big generalization, but serves to simplify the aspects of "toe shortness". If the spacial orientation of the coffin bone is correct (not rotated) and you parallel the dorsal hoof wall with the coffin bone, then the angle that it follows to the ground will be the correct length for that foot. In other words, to long a toe, or to short a toe is the result of the angle it assumes (unless it is to long from lack of trimming...which is a flare...like any other).

When the hoof capsule is not correctly aligned to the coffin bone, then the coffin bone will be "rotated". This could be from actual rotation, or more commonly, from the hoof wall being allowed to grow away from its correct postition around the coffin bone.

How's that? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

NRB

Mar. 1, 2003, 06:00 PM

Ok so I admit I didn't look through this entire thread for info I am searching for, it's late and I'm pooped. So perhaps wthe answer to my question is in this thread. Someone let me know if it is. But...

My horse is recently barefoot (well 8 weeks now)in the hind per my barn owners request. He has long toes low heels up front and in back. perhaps he has underun heels as well ? (I am just learning all this vocabulary) Anyhoo I read in a CHerry Hill Maximum Hoof Power book that the frog should not rest on the ground in a barefoot shod horse. My horses frog does. Actually if I pick up the hoof and rest a straightedge across the hoof, the frog is higher than the walls of his hoof, esp in the heel area. So therefore he must be resting his weight on his frog more than his hoof wall right? This is bad right? How bad?

mcmIV

Mar. 1, 2003, 07:16 PM

Hmm the frog question is interesting.... I'll let the experts take that one. From what I've been learning, the frog SHOULD in ideal circumstances (barefeet) be in contact with the ground, at least at maximum weight bearing.... but the to extent you describe.... hmm

As for long toes, low heels - READ THE THREAD. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's why I started it, I have the same problem, along with, oh maybe.... 60-90% of the horse population not living in the wild. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have some good pictures, I think, of my horse Java - I posted them from December on the first couple pages, and then updates later on in Feb., and there is a nice improvement in some respects. Many many comments here regarding the low heel long toe problem. You will see pictures reflecting this from all of us throughout the post.

martha

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

Zephyr'sMom

Mar. 2, 2003, 03:22 AM

Just now found this post! I've been working with Zephyr's feet for the last couple days. He saw the farrier 5 weeks ago for a trim, but was starting to flare. It will be another 3 weeks before the farrier is back.

I do not profess to be any kind of foot expert, nor have I ever worked on any other feet than his. However, a farrier-friend of mine gave me a rasp last summer, and told me to keep his feet cleaned up between farrier visits. I didn't do all that much, nothing more than keep the edges from being rough and chipped.

I've been doing a lot of research in the last couple days since I noticed the flares starting again, in the hope of being less clumsy about trimming, and more knowledgeable. I also suspect my farrier rushes through the trim, an leaves a lot to be desired! I want to be able to talk to him about it and not sound like an idiot.

In particular, Zephyr's left front foot tends to grow longer on the inside of his toe, and he develops a flare there. Also, his hind feet both have stretched white lines on the outsides with teeny tiny corresponding flares, and he stands a little bit toed out behind. Plus, he almost never stands square, behind. Usually, it's the right hind foot that he places forward, and it's usually by at least 12".

Can y'all take a look and give me your thoughts? FYI, he's a 7yo gaited RMH/Arab, and he goes barefoot year round.

Some of the photos have a "before" shot on top, and an "after" shot on bottom. I'm sure there is still work to be done - today I tried to do only what I knew was OK, with the plan of coming here for guidance about what else needs to be done!

Here's a link to a webshots album, with all the photos. I've made notes on the photos where appropriate. LOL http://community.webshots.com/album/38083743zOLXtA

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!
-Zephyr's Mom

http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

http://www.ZEGifts.com

greyiscute

Mar. 2, 2003, 07:34 AM

wow...i just found this thread and have spent the last 2 hours reading it. it is fabulous! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

so now i have a question of my own. about a year ago i bought a big 16.2 QH as a resale project. his feet, esp. the front, were pretty bad in that they didnt match at all. the left front was okay...a little long of toe, short of heel, and just generally flat, but not too bad. the right front however was totally different. much more upright (although not clubby) with high heel, not much frog and a short toe. the horse passed his flexion tests in all four legs, although the vet thought there was a *little* something in the right front, but couldnt pinpoint what/where. i didnt get x-rays because this horse was a bargin and i honestly didnt really have the money (i know, poor excuse...). also, this vet hardly ever gives a clean soundness check for any horse...we call him the lameness nazi http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. when i got this guy i was a working student in southern pines, so for 3 months he had a great farrier who managed to get both feet in better balance and more matching...the left still had a tendancy to be a bit flat and the right a little upright, but much better. then i went off to college, and the horse went home to alabama, where there is a shortage of good farriers (at least in my area). my mom had recently switched to a new guy, because of some personal issues with the old guy. ive never met the new farrier or had a chance to talk with him, but im not a hugh fan of what has happened to our horses feet. but i digress, thats another story for another day.

anywho, i have now brought the before mentioned horse up to school with me to work with a bit more and then find another home for him. his feet are right back where they were when i got him! if not worse! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif ive found a farrier up here who im happy with who has shod him once, and is again working on evening up the feet. now this horse has never, and will never be the greatest mover in the world, but i have noticed since i have him back in work (he was out of work for ~6 months) that he feels slightly uneven in the right front. defintly not lame at all but just slightly different. back during his soundness exam, i wondered if the *slight* something in the right front was due to his foot, and i also wonder if it is now.

i dont have any pictures, im sorry, and i realize that without actually seeing the horse, it is hard to give advice about this kind of thing, but i was just wondering if anybody had any opinions/ideas about it.

hope that all made sense. thanks.

NRB

Mar. 2, 2003, 10:30 AM

Thanks for the speedy reply martha. I had also thought that the frog was to come into contact with the ground to "pump blood" into the hoof area. But this one book, the Cherry Hill Maximum Hoof Power, states that is a myth. Increased activity pumps blood from the heart through the limbs. The frog is not a second heart or so this book claims. The book furhter states "It is not necessary or desirable for the frog to bear weight when the horse stands on level ground." pp48. ALso the book said the "short walls casuses the sole to bear weight." and that "the (hoof) wall can wear so excessivly (when barefoot) that the horse is walking on his soles. This often results in sole bruises and sole abcesses." pp 18.

So since the farrier had me use Venice Turpentine on my horses soles because they were so thin, I was assuming, that after reading this, my horse with thin soles, wet weather, low heels and short to no hoof wall leaving the frog exposed to bear weight, I was doing my horse more harm than good by leaving shoes off his hind feet.

But I am hesitant to trust just one book to be an authority on this subject which is why I posted here, seems some farriers are following this thread.

I'll read the thread to learn more about the low heel, long toe issue. thanks but still windering about the frog issue.

slb

Mar. 2, 2003, 12:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NRB:
Thanks for the speedy reply martha. I had also thought that the frog was to come into contact with the ground to "pump blood" into the hoof area.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi NRB, glad you joined us and brought such a good question. I'll try to add to Martha's comments and clarify why there is so much confusion. The "pump blood" theory is still a confusing and controversial issue. However, according to recent research at Michigan U (Bowker), when the frog comes into contact with the ground it increases circulation in that it improves action in the digital cushion. The digital cushion is a key structure that supports the rear of the coffin bone and absorbs concussion. It also is the one structure that suffers the most damage from poor trimming and shoeing. The problem is, with it being internal, it is often overlooked and the importance of its health ignored. It is thought that lack of health in the digital cushion could be the reason for several undiscovered lameness issues.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But this one book, the Cherry Hill Maximum Hoof Power, states that is a myth. Increased activity pumps blood from the heart through the limbs. The frog is not a second heart or so this book claims.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This statement is true to a degree. Most would not dispute the importance of increased movement playing the biggest role in increasing circulation...especially in the feet.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The book furhter states "It is not necessary or desirable for the frog to bear weight when the horse stands on level ground." pp48.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wild horse studies compared to improved health in domestic horses and studies of such, have now proven this untrue. Bowker, Ovnicek, Jackson, and many others have found that the frog must touch the ground to improve health in the foot. If this doesn't happen, often the frog will over compensate and try to grow down to touch the ground. Ovnicek's EDSS system of therapeutic shoeing is based on frog pressure theories and is highly successful because of it. If the frog deteriorates because it is not retaining its elasticity and health (due to lack of ground contact), then the digital cushion suffers. If this happens, the whole foot suffers.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>ALso the book said the "short walls casuses the sole to bear weight." and that "the (hoof) wall can wear so excessivly (when barefoot) that the horse is walking on his soles. This often results in sole bruises and sole abcesses." pp 18.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Noone can deny these statements...however, are these things beneficial or are they harmful? A seminar at Tufts U last year presented Strasser's trim (see previous posts early in thread) for peer review. The panel of farriers, vets, and a barefoot trimmer all questioned that Strasser's trim leaves the wall as a primary weight bearing surface. They all disagreed and indicated that the sole should play a part in weight bearing also. (See Hoof Care and Lameness Magazine (http://www.hoofcare.com)...Strasser trim link off the front page...for more info on what they felt was wrong).

Ir is very true that in a hoof without sound internal structures, with a thin sole, or with the coffin bone tipped or sunk (from high heels or founder) that excess pressure is placed upon the sole corium from within...with additional pressure on the sole from outside, bruising is generally severe and difficult to resolve. However, if the hoof capsule is balanced and the coffin bone is in correct alignment, then the sole will generally thicken to protect the sensative structures and no bruising will occur.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So since the farrier had me use Venice Turpentine on my horses soles because they were so thin, I was assuming, that after reading this, my horse with thin soles, wet weather, low heels and short to no hoof wall leaving the frog exposed to bear weight, I was doing my horse more harm than good by leaving shoes off his hind feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not convinced that putting anything on the sole actually helps much...except that it drys it out...so, if overly wet, that may be a help, but could also be a hindrance. In the case of your horse's frogs, there could be a couple of general reasons for it being overly large. It could be robust and well functioning. It could be trying to protect the foot from imbalances that casue pain, loss of integrety, or improper function and therefore it becomes overly large as a case of protecting the foot. The final reason is that heels are really too long, not too short (if they are underrun...generally they are too long, but appear short) and the foot may be contracted. In some feet the frog makes an effort to touch the ground to help repair the problems realted to contraction and underrun/overly long heels. It is very easy to believe that a foot is healthy when it has high heels and contraction. The reason being that it does "seem" to meet the criteria for a good hoof: concavity, robust frog, apparently short heels. The reality is that the concavity is excessive from the heels pushing in on the cadual structures. The frog is becoming enlarged in an attempt to heal itself. And the heels are long, just growing forward rather than downward.

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NRB

Mar. 2, 2003, 08:02 PM

Thanks for all the info slb!

So underrun heels are long heels that have, well the wrong angle, shooting forward under the hoof and having a smaller angle than healthy heels which may distance wise be shorter in legnth, but has a more open angle. ( ie open anlge like 45 degrees, smaller angle is like 35 degrees)

Lots to think about. I figured that one book doesn't have all the answers. In my case I just figured that there should be more hoof wall supporting the heel area than there is now, seems the frog and bulbs of the heel hold this horse up more than the hoof wall, but I'll need to post good picts to get more info here. And I'll talk to my farrier and see what he thinks when he comes in two weeks.

I guess what got me going was this horse has never been barerfoot in the 1 1/2 yrs I have had him nor in the 3 years his previous owner had him. So since it was wet soft going when we pulled the hind shoes I was happy to see his hooves stay intact. No tearing at the edges or anything. But now, some time after the second trim he's lost a fair sized chunk of hoof wall back near his heels. That got me worrying and looking closer. His hind feet are not perfectly flat, but they do not appear to be cupped enough, they tend more towards the falt end of the scale. And spring is coming, soft wet ground, seems to be ripe for stone bruises.

I agree that the frog should probablly contact the ground to maintain health, but to the degree that it contacts and carries weight is what I question. I mean even in a shod horse in soft or deep or wet ground the frog comes into contact with the ground, you can see it in the hoof print left behind.

Isn't a healthy sole cupped shapped a bit? Not flat? So in a sole like that the outer edges would bear mroe weight than the inner edges right? A flat sole would bear weight equally across all surfaces. My horses sole flexed under finger pressure at the farrier visit whne the farrier emntioned the Venice Turpentine idea. That is too much movement? A thins Sole?

I am aware of folks studying wild horses for more info on how we should shoe our own animals but am skepticle of how much info we can draw from these horse that live a life radically different from my horses. And really if my horse were wild, he'd be dead long before now. Natural selection would favor sound animals, kill off the weak and unsound. Man on the other hand goes around and actually BREEDS unsound animals. Sheesh, then nutbars like myself try to keep them sound as best we can.

[This message was edited by NRB on Mar. 02, 2003 at 11:14 PM.]

slb

Mar. 2, 2003, 09:59 PM

Yes, NRB, you have the right idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Just to help clarify in case others are confused, here is EventGurlie's pic. This is very generalized in that I am using angles to indicate where the correct shape of the foot should fall...since every horse is different and we don't know what's inside, we know that these angles are not perfect, but give us a guide to discuss a better shaped foot.

Note that the heel is only slightly underrun (compare red line (ideal) to green (actual). See how the two lines are much closer as the heel is shortened? And note that the hairline doesn't look to bad, but diverges from the straight as the heel runs forwad and pulls it. Then, if I take and put a line across where I want to start getting the heels more correctly placed...note how the heel shortens, and the whole foot starts to come into a better alignment. I would also need to move the shoe back toward the red line to offer support for the heels.

The frog: according to Bowker's and other studies, the frog should touch the ground when the horse is standing on a hard surface. It should probably be sharing the weight with the two points on the heel where the wall hooks into the bars. In order for this to happen, it would tend to be slightly higher than the wall (as it compresses). But, most agree that it should taper down to meet the sole and is only higher in the rear most part of the foot. An important point in having the frog touch the gound is that the propiorceptors are mostly located in the frog and rear of the foot. These are the sensors that send messages to the brain (actually the spine) to tell the horse where and how he is stepping.

Your concerns about the coming wet weather and bruising are understood. However, if the spacial orinetation of the coffin bone is correct, then you shouldn't experience bruising. But, in most cases, even if the coffin bone is correctly oriented to the gound plane, in many cases of imbalanced feet, it will reside to low in the foot and thus already be applying pressure to the corium, which is enhanced by the sole softening caused during wet weather....resulting in bruising. I know that doesn't help you now, but if you plan to leave the horse barefoot, then this should be a goal.

Yes, a healthy hoof should show some concavity, however, not all feet are the same and some (like drafts) are more genetically prone to being flatter. But, generally, the healthier the foot, the stonger the interior attachments, the higher the coffin bone sets in relationship to the ground plane, and the the more concavity can be attained. You are right, if you can flex the sole with your finger, it is generally to thin. This, however, can generally be fixed and a thicker sole is more the result of a balanced trim and environment rather than genetics.

You raise an important issue about the wild horse studies. But, I think that those who study would generally be the first to agree that wild doesn't = domestic (there are some that don't agree, and so far from what I see, they have not been as successful in their efforts as those who agree). The important thing was to note what parts of the foot were used (and how) to support the coffin bone/foot. When these particular principles are applied correctly, it is apparent from anecdotal evidence, as well as recent studies, that addressing these differences in domestic horses are generally all that is needed to create a much healthier, stronger, and correctly formed foot. Their attempt has not been so much to match form as to match function. I think that few would debate that alignment of the boney column and proper functioning of internal structures to provide optimal shock absorbtion, correct placement of breakover to provide optimal movement, or correct spacial orientation of the coffin bone to prevent it from pressing on the solar corium (thus thinning and even bruising the sole) are, or should be, that different between domestic and wild horses.

Well...just my opinion, but I admit bias because I see these methods fixing bad feet nearly every day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Opps...forgot to attach the pic

OK...that was freakin' huge...I'll try again.

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slb

Mar. 2, 2003, 10:22 PM

Here is a good link that offers some info from the mouths of some of those (Gene Ovnicek) that study wild feet.

Additionally, the article below it will provide more (and better) info on trimming to attain a more balanced foot and how to address underrun heels and frogs.

NRB, there is some good info on the frog and why it might be overly developed.

Natrual Hoof Prints Newsletter (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/hoofprints/volume2/vol2iss3.html)

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slb

Mar. 2, 2003, 10:41 PM

Also, wanted to show you all what would happen if we just took the heels down, and didn't address the toe. Now you can see how long the toe is and how steep the angles are in relationship to how the form would be if the heels are the right height. This should help explain why we sometimes don't see the flaws in some distorted feet.

Wanted to add...the begining angle on this front foot was about 60 degrees (better for a hind) and the foot trimmed to address the high/underrun heel now has a more appropriate angle of 50 degrees.

Please remember that these are simplistic in their attempts, and do not address the underlying structures or their orientation. But, serve to offer insight into what can happen when the foot is unbalanced.

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[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 03, 2003 at 01:51 AM.]

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 12:06 AM

Beyond the Trim
Here is another pic to show what the coffin bone is doing as we take the heels down and get the hoof in correct balance. This is a poor attempt, with camera angles different, mismatched scaling, and the coffin bone angle exagerated, but will give you all and idea of how the spacial orientation of the coffin bone changes as the heels are lowered. Note, that not only did the coffin bone realign, but it also came up higher in the foot. While the first issue can be addressed in a couple of trims/resets, the second issue sometimes takes a year or more...depending on how damaged the internal structures are.

As the attachments become stronger and the digital cushion healthier, the coffin bone slightly "rises up" in relationship to the hoof capsule. The sole has a chance to thicken and the coffin bone "rotates" to more correct orientation within the capsule. Importatant here is that in reality, the hoof capsule is being reoriented, the coffin bone generally is fairly static in orientation (often even the case in founder).

Is this too much info...am I confusing everyone?

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slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 12:54 AM

Hey Libby and Martha...how about some comments on Zephyr's feet!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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dressager

Mar. 3, 2003, 02:11 AM

Right now I don't have time to read through all 20 (!) pages, but if I took some pictures of my horse's hooves would someone tell me if everything is okay?

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 02:25 AM

Sure Dressager...glad you could join us http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I think at this point we are having problems keeping up with the thread...but, we'll get to it asap.

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dressager

Mar. 3, 2003, 03:06 AM

What angles do you want? Side? Frog?

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

Bensmom

Mar. 3, 2003, 06:21 AM

Ok, slb -- you come back from actually getting some work done and pose all sorts of interesting questions!

I'm in the middle of prepping for Red Hills (the barns are up and it is only MONDAY! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) but I'll go through and comment and look as soon as I can devote some actual attention to it.

Libby (whose been busy supervising the grumpy AAA guy changing my tire this morning . . .)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 10:15 AM

Dressager...do straight on side and front shots and a solar view if he isn't in pads.

Bensmom....did the AAA guy correctly balance and align the tires as he applied them? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

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mellsmom

Mar. 3, 2003, 10:32 AM

Two of my guys have the set back shoes. One is a navicular horse who was nearly crippled with eggbars and eggbars and pads, etc. Finally read something on a shoeing site, and took ot my long suffering farrier who turned this guy into an almost sound horse in two weeks. I had spent about 3 years on other methods and was considering putting him down. This was about 6 years ago. He's 29 now and still does a beginner lesson once a week.
My young horse tends to trip over his feet constantly unless he is trimmed fairly short and given a set back shoe.
My farrier though does the toe, not radically cut back, but shaped and rounded so that it does not compromise the hoof wall.

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

mcmIV

Mar. 3, 2003, 11:24 AM

Mellsmom - what was the treatment for the older navicular horse that "fixed" him? We had a mare like that who wasn't totally cripled, but fairly lame, all her life. Eggbars and pads on her, even had her nerved once or twice.

She's still kicking around happily on a farm with some goats and sheep and a pony. I heard they pulled her shoes and shes "sound".... I want to check in on her to see if its true!

martha

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slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 12:24 PM

Martha, there is a good chance that she is "sound". Are they riding her...pasture sound is one thing, riding sound another. But, it is not uncommon to return "navicular" horses to riding soundness either...especially using NB or similar principles. The majority of navicular cases are really just some sort of heel pain caused by unbalanced feet or generally contraction. High heels play a role too. With a return to proper hoof form and function (some believe that circulation also plays a role) the heel pain subsides and the foot becomes correctly weighted. The horse moves off sound...sometimes in 1-2 trims. It does, of course, take closer to a year to get the foot in optimal condition so that the horse stays riding sound...sometimes 2 years.

My husband's first therapeutic case was a referal when he was still in the last weeks of school. The horse had been standing lame in a stall for 8 years. He was donated to a therapeutic riding center and hubby was donating trims as part of his education. Within a couple of trims, this horse was pasture sound. Within a couple of more was able to work an hour/day in a flat arena. Later, he was riding sound for all day arena work. He then moved on to light trail work as well. He was retired to our house and a year later we pulled his shoes. We videoed him with and without shoes and saw no difference between the two. He was then shod in concussion reducing shoes for light trail work and some kid lessons until he died. Although it took about 4 years to get him barefoot sound, we now know that it was hubby's inexperience that slowed progress, not the method. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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mcmIV

Mar. 3, 2003, 12:30 PM

Well, her new retirement family is new to "horses" although old to livestock and farming and VERY concientous about health and happiness. Casey was "sound" in the way an arthitic old horse is - stiff, short, sometimes a little head bob. Needed to keep moving to stay sound enough, but never 100%.

The mare had shoes all her life - through the navicular diagnosis, etc. When the new mom asked me my opinion on pulling her expensive shoes, I said "go for it!, but expect her to be foot sore for a long time...." and I handed her some bute. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Little bitty kids were going to be walking her arond on the property and otherwise she just lives with goats.

I heard through the grapevine that she is sound now - but whether that's true or not I don't know - if they're beginners they might not know what sound is. However, I am very interested to see her and find out if pulling the shoes did the trick, it would be some nice anecdotal evidence for my bag of tricks.

Whether they have access to a "good farrier" is another question....

martha

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slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 12:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Whether they have access to a "good farrier" is another question....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's another good issue. From what I have seen, if the horse has been in pain for a considerable period, even if the trim isn't the best, just a change in treatment (generally barefoot) allows the foot to rehab itself somewhat. This doesn't neccessarily make the horse "sound", but the improvement is generally so dramatic that the horse appears sound to the untrained eye.

Here's a sad founder story for ya....
A horse was in such pain, that it walked backwards and dragged its front feet behind as it went. This lasted with "convention" treatment (actually some of the worst trimming/shoeing I have ever seen) for over a year. [Insert personal comment about quality of life here http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif] The horse was put in a sling, shoes were pulled, and trimmed in a "natural" manner...it walked off "sound". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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wildhorses

Mar. 3, 2003, 01:19 PM

Hi,

I am real need of advice. We had a mare in foal have laminitis with some rotation on only one front foot.

She is 7 months along in pregnanacy. The vets believe it has been caused by the dramatically cold weather we recently had.

It has been 4 weeks and we have tried medications from the vet and some different types of herbs and she is very slowly showing signs of improvement but still very sore. X-rays show she has stopped rotating.

What do we do to help her now? They first wanted us to tape foam to her feet but that was diffcult. I read a lot about the natural trim but our farrier was insistent on putting shoes and pads on her because her soles are thin. I just don't like the shoes idea because her frog and hoof are off the ground. I was thinking of pulling the shoes and putting a boot on like Old Macs to help her until her sole grows.

We have also started her on Farriers Formula to help speed up the growth.

Our vet said it is possible to use corrective trimming/shoeing to help correct the coffin position as the hoof grows but our farrier says no way.

Any advice?

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 01:56 PM

Oooo....my really fav subject! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

First, in my enthusiasm about the subject, I don't want to overlook the difficulties that you must be going through and want to say that this is one of the toughest "diseases" that horseowners encounter.

The first step is to get her comfortable. Taping foam to her feet is the best step...especially if she is barefoot. I am assuming that you are not using bute? If you are, please do not use it long term (2-3 weeks max). Long term use will actually encourage more lamintis in some horses as well as prevent healing in all horses. Check out the foam installation download at Hope for Soundness (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com). Although a pia, this will be the better thing to do for the moment. When she is sound enough to move about comfortably, then you can boot her in Macs or something similar. Just remember that boots must be used short term/daily. The horse can't live in them or you will get problems.

Exercise is also important...especially for a mare heavy in foal. She needs movement, but not forced. Whatever is within her realm of comfort. If she can be outside without other horses pushing her around, that is best. Also some brisk handwalking is good...up to 20 min/day. But, remember not to force her. If there is another, not too aggressive horse to turn her out with...one that will encourage her to move, but not push her around, that is best.

She will most likely abscess, if you soak her feet daily in epsom salts or apple cider vinegar (about 10 mins/2x) that will speed recovery from the abscess. Also, beware that she may abscess again after that...so further lameness may be from that.

The key is in teamwork. You need a farrier, vet, and yourself to work together closely and beable to discuss and agree on issues. It appears that you already have a negative minded farrier...as well as one that doesn't understand the mechanics of founder or healing it. Returning the coffin bone to its natural orientation is the easy part. It only requires applying techniques that address optimal form and function. Keeping the toe wall parallel with the coffin bone and keeping the coffin bone in alignment with the ground. That is all that is neccessary (for the basics). If these two things are followed, the foot will recover and the horse will generally be sound. There are other things that need tweaking and addressing, but that is the basic principle. You need to find a farrier that is open-minded enough to attempt to fix the horse. Check out the BB and farrier finder at Hope for Soundness. There is also a trim tutorial to help you understand the basic principles.

The other issue is that you need to discover and eliminate the underlying cause of the laminitis. You should have bloodwork drawn to check for potential metabolic disorders like insulin resistance, thyroid, or mineral imbalances such as selinium and vit E deficiency. This is the most difficult and time consumeing part. You may never discover the underlying problem. But, if you don't, it could very well happen again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Check out the pics I posted earlier about how the coffin bone sits in a high heeled horse. This is similar to the rotation in a foundered horse. See how "easy" it was for the coffin bone to be "derotated" and why it happened. The two, as well as some instances of club feet are identical in cause and "treatment" from the aspect of the trim. If you are worried about ground contact with the frog and such, then you could look into EDSS system (Hope for Soundness) but, if the underlying trim isn't appropriate, then the application of the shoe will not "fix" anything. Also, if the farrier doesn't understand the method of application, it will fail. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

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katelyn

Mar. 3, 2003, 06:59 PM

Foundered Horses (long)

I don't have any pictures, but would appreciate some input. I'll try to take some this week and post them soon.

I have a TB gelding who's foundered twice (botched farrier jobs), the first time he had rotation/sinking in all 4. The second time he only rotated in 1 front foot, and thankfully no others.

He has a very underrun heel on his LF, but the RF has a decent amount/height of heel (weird because this is the worse foot). He's barefoot behind (with no problems other than a small flare which is always there) and is sound on those feet.

He's shod in frog support pads (to keep some pressure on his frog/sole area) and Natural Balance shoes. This seems to be working, but his front feet aren't were I would like them to be (still pretty unbalanced). Its been about 6 months with this treatment plan...and while he's sound (the most important thing), I'd like to see his feet looking better.

He has rockered/rolled/beveled out toes....and we've also been cutting them pretty short in an effort to get his heels up. He's also in a size 3 (soon to be 4) in order to give him heel support.

Does this sound totally off the mark, or should I stick it out since he's sound and happy; even though his feet still don't look great? Like I said, I'll try to get some pictures scanned so you have a better idea of what they look like.

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 08:27 PM

Hi Katelyn....
It would be best if you can post some pics, but I'll answer your questions as best I can without. Please include a sole shot even though he is in pads.

First comment I would make is that from my experience, a bad trim doesn't generally founder a horse....there is only one type trim that I have heard of that commonly founders horses and I'm sure your farrier was not applying that trim. I think that you need to get bloodwork and look for underlying problems (undiscovered disease, liver problems, insulin resistance, and/or thyroid problems). Have you done any dietary changes since the founder? What other things have you changed in his management?

Second, treating rotation is one thing....treating a sinker is another. The problem is if the attachment separtated high enough up the hoof wall...near the coronary...then gaining a new, sound attachment that high up is a real bear! The new laminae will want to "stretch" itself to reach the dropped coffin bone. And, it won't "unstretch"...the coffin bone will slowly have to be reattached by shorter and shorter laminae each new growth. That could take several years. I have seen improvement in my own mare in 2 years, but we still have a long way to go. I have even heard of good reattachment in 2-3 years...but, that was told to me, I didn't see it.

Often the problem with sinkers is that they keep suffering small bouts of laminitis. These bouts often go undetected, especially if the trim is correct. But, each bout weakens the laminae and lets the foot sink a little lower
each time. Generally, these horses have metabolic disorders that are the underlying cause of the laminitis. Sometimes these metabolic issues are never discovered or resolved.

The final thing is, if he is sound, and you see continuous improvement in the way his feet look...judge the new growth at the top of the foot, not the old growth (can't do anything about that)....then you are probably progressing as well as can be expected. Is his white line getting tighter each time? This is an excellent way to judge what is happening inside. As the coffin bone resumes it orifinal position, the typical foundered foot stretched white line should start shrinking. I don't think that 6 months is enough time to see if this is working (in this particular case)...and I would suggest that because he is "sound and happy", things are working. Also, a size 3 or 4 is a good size foot, so he probably has good form, just bad looking old growth on the outside. Keep checking the growth nearest the coronary and see if it is smoother and the horn tubules straighter. If not, then either the horse has chronic laminitis that you are not detecting, or the method is not working.

Hope this helps...waiting for your pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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-ponybreath-

Mar. 3, 2003, 10:09 PM

Wow, great thread. I just read all of it at once. My question is pretty simple. Is it acceptable for your horse's to occasionally bleed after they get reset? There is more to the story, but I'll get to it tomorrow.
Thanks,
Meghan

slb

Mar. 3, 2003, 10:21 PM

I'll reserve my answer until I hear the whole story, but....I would generally question any bleeding (of the foot) that is a result of trimming. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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katelyn

Mar. 4, 2003, 04:27 AM

Thanks slb...

More info on the farrier. He had undetected White line for a while (had a resection, almost all the hoof wall was taken off) and typical bad feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It wasn't so much one botched trim, but more of a continual 6 month thing (stupid me, I didn't know). Its a long story, but my vet, the vets at Rochester Equine, a new farrier there, etc all said thats what it was from. I'm sure you can imagine how terrible I felt......I had no idea.

We too all thought of a metabolic/underlying problem. Actually, my vet thought it was Cushings or insulin problems (only 9 yrs old)...but all the blood work came back clear (did each test 2 times).

The new hoof growth does look better, so as his foot grows out I assume it will look better as it grows out.

The first time he foundered was 2 years ago, and the rotation/sinking was pretty much put back into the correct position. So he really only has rotation on the front 2 now...but his coffin bone is sitting directly on his sole.

He eats a lot less grain (was an OTTB), and also isn't allowed on grass (most recent founder was because barn workers put him on a new lush paddock for the entire day after being on a dry lot).

Thanks for the answers, I'll work on the pictures.

~katelyn~

mcmIV

Mar. 4, 2003, 06:33 AM

I think SLB should be salaried for this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What's your going rate SLB?!

I need to settle in and really read the latest info! Browsing from work doesn't do it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

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dressager

Mar. 4, 2003, 08:12 AM

Update: I took the pictures this evening and will upload them to my site tomorrow.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

betsyk

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:20 AM

I don't have anything to offer on the founder questions (thank goodness we've never had to deal with that - knock on wood!) but have another one.

My 20-y-o Arab has always been sickle hocked and had trouble with long toes and no heels behind, pretty much no matter what anyone did. This last trim our farrier must have decided it was time to take a chance. He took his toes WAY back, so it appears that there's about an inch of foot ahead of the tip of his frog, and voila -- he stands under himself like a normal horse! Part of me is still holding my breath, because messing with a sound 20-year-old horse carries its own risks, but he seems bright and perky and not at all sore. So my question is --

His front feet appear to follow the 1/3-2/3 shape described above in this thread. That 1/3 represents quite a bit more than an inch ahead of where my untrained eye estimates the tip of the coffin bone to be. His hind feet look more like my other gelding's feet when we were in the middle of reconstruction last year -- an inch or so of foot ahead of the tip of the frog, which is much much less than 1/3 of the foot. Why not do the fronts to match the hinds? it's not like he has much for heels in front. will the hinds reshape themselves to create that 1/3-2/3 ratio if he ever grows a heel?

I may see my farrier tonight and I'll certainly ask him these questions, but that 1/3-2/3 thing vs. 1" ahead of the coffin bone is still bothering me.

mellsmom

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:39 AM

MCMIV-

Well, you know my guy had heel pain as well. He was crippled in eggbars. We also had the rubber injected under pads for him. I was ready to put him down as it would take us 4 grams of bute a day to get him half way sound.
Then, we tried the set back shoe with the rounded toe. No bute needed, nothing. He's 100% sound at the walk. He's arthritic a bit and needs to be kept in work to stay fluid, but he is about 80% sound. He goes in SMB's in the front every ride and has for years. For him, this combination works. He also jumps a bit, up to 18 inches or so when he's feeling good. He's 29 now. Foundation QH bloodlines. If we don't work him some he gets depressed. In fact I need to get on him this weekend and putter aroundx some. He has spent the last 10 years teaching beginners how to ride.

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

Zephyr'sMom

Mar. 4, 2003, 01:48 PM

I don't want to be a pest, but please don't forget to check out Zephyr's photos, that I posted on page 20. When y'all get a chance, that is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (I know you're busy.)

http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

http://www.ZEGifts.com

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 02:25 PM

Hi, Zephyr's Mom...we didn't forget you...I have lots to say, but would like to have some of the others comment before I do.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Zephyr'sMom

Mar. 4, 2003, 02:46 PM

OK, Gotcha. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (How mysterious! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

http://www.ZEGifts.com

mcmIV

Mar. 4, 2003, 04:49 PM

OK - I'll try for Zephyr. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I did some lines on the feet - I picked the Left Front side images.

First - don't worry about his pastern angles, we have already decided that pastern angles are not what you should measure to - as they are not constant. See one of SLB's fabulous posts in a previous page. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

** my comments based on pictures provided, and MAYBE are incorrect if the picture is distorted due to angle! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ** EDITTED NOTE! I posted this and IMMEDIATELY realized my post was based on thinking the original was BEFORE and AFTER, not the same trim. WHOPS. But that made me realize that my line drawing indicated something interesting… read on!

Here are the originals, without lines (http://community.webshots.com/image5/2/21/74/65222174TNhtxE_ph.jpg)

So - After looking closely at them zoomed in - I think that the "Inside" has a more “under run” heel to it. The heels appears to be longer in relation to the foot, and its angle is more steep as illustrated by the blue line.

The Outside picture almost has a really nice heel - at least a good portion of the foot coming out of the heel is at a good angle, and seems as if it’s growing in on the right track.

So – basically there is a difference in the heel growth outside to inside on these LF’s. Maybe it’s camera angle. Maybe its causing these flares you mention….. or visa versa, chicken egg.

My other thought was that the toes could stand to be squared or shortened. They seem longish and pointyish.

I also stuck an interesting pic on the bottom of the image - the RF seems to have a dish in it? I know he is standing funny, but the HOOF should remain normal regardless of his "boney column", right?

I didn't look closely on the right front like I did the left's, but it LOOKS a little clubby or something, but that dish is throwing me off. Am I seeing things?

The bottom’s don’t look good to me. You said that yourself. I almost wondered, on the whiteline spread, if it was a gravel or abcess or something. Other than “they don’t look good” – I have nothing constructive to add…. And that comment in itself, isn’t really constructive, so I’ll stop myself there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Alright - I'm ready for another to critique *my* critique. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Don't take my word for it!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Mar. 04, 2003 at 08:05 PM.]

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 09:16 PM

Martha...some good observations and comments. Here is a sole pic that will help you understand better why you think the heels appear longer on one side than the other (they are), as well as the toe is to long, and what is happening because of it.

The red lines indicate where the heel currently is and approx. where point of breakover appears to occur. Notice it is at an angle. Generally horses with long toes will begin to breakover at an angle inorder to avoid the long toe and inappropriate point of breakover at the end of it.

The green lines indicate approx. where the heel and toe should be. The blue line, the point of breakover. Currently there is more than 50% of the foot in front of the widest part of the foot (a little behind the apex of the frog)...meaning that the bulk of the weight is being carried on the front half of the foot rather than the back half. The black arrows are exactly the same length, so you can see the difference in heel height....the right side (from the view) is forward of the left.

White line separation is most likely a simple result of the misplaced, distored hoof capsule and will resolve as the hoof approaches optimal form. The flares are also a cause.

I thought I should add....please Zephyr's Mom, don't use these examples as trim guides. I have no idea where the landmarks are for the coffin bone, so I am only guesstimating where these points should fall. You really should get x-rays, find the sole calous that protects the tip of the coffin bone and determine were point of breakover should be and how far back to cut the toe.

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[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 05, 2003 at 12:41 AM.]

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 09:32 PM

The dish....Martha, the reason that you are confused about the dish is two fold...one, because it is there (although slight - a result of the long toe and white line separation allowing the hoof capsule to distort away from the parallel connection with the coffin bone...similar to what happens in founder. It is simply a flare and should be treated as such...taken off. And, secondly, because the broken back axis results in an optical illusion that you can't quite pinpoint. But, you can see it well in another foot noted in my comment pic below.

There is also a slight difference in toe angles from one foot to the other. However, I wouldn't worry as much about that as I would all the other stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by katelyn:
More info on the farrier. He had undetected White line for a while (had a resection, almost all the hoof wall was taken off) and typical bad feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It wasn't so much one botched trim, but more of a continual 6 month thing (stupid me, I didn't know).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I think now I would agree that the farrier may have foundered your horse!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm sure you can imagine how terrible I felt......I had no idea.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I talk to people all the time that feel that it was their fault...but you can't blame yourself for trusting a "professional" and for not understanding the entire workings of the foot....that's like saying that you feel you must know the entire workings of your body because your doctor might be incompetent (but, that's another thread...)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We too all thought of a metabolic/underlying problem. Actually, my vet thought it was Cushings or insulin problems (only 9 yrs old)...but all the blood work came back clear (did each test 2 times).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a note about this...I also have a mare that continues to suffer laminits every winter (each bout is milder, so we expect that we are begining to get a handle on it). But, we have drawn bloodwork on her 3-4 times with no abnormalties. Because it is a defined cycle, it is obviously metabolic in nature. She is carb intolerant (responds to high carb levels with signs of laminitis, but doesn't have high insulin or glucose levels).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The new hoof growth does look better, so as his foot grows out I assume it will look better as it grows out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it should start looking better this summer as it grows out. The problem will be in keeping correct hoof form and alignment as it grows. The hoof will want to diverge from the "normal" parallel path to the coffin bone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The first time he foundered was 2 years ago, and the rotation/sinking was pretty much put back into the correct position. So he really only has rotation on the front 2 now...but his coffin bone is sitting directly on his sole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That will take time to fix...must first get a good stong laminar connection. But, as the new, stronger connection grows down, it will help "raise" the coffin bone up in the foot. Again, correct form with good verticle depth of foot (not the same as a long hoof wall) is important and helpful. You may have to wait 2 to several years for this to resolve.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>He eats a lot less grain (was an OTTB), and also isn't allowed on grass (most recent founder was because barn workers put him on a new lush paddock for the entire day after being on a dry lot).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would most likely classify him as carb intolerant and put him on a forage only diet...things like beet pulp (without molasses), alfalfa cubes or pellets, and sunflower seeds are acceptable foods. Hay should be low in NFC..no more than 20%. Some horses can't take more than 12%. The beet pulp, cubes/pellets, and seeds shouldn't total more than 20% of his total diet by weight. You would also do well to get hay test for mineral balancing if possible. There is a great Yahoo group that deals with treating metabolic disorders...even if we don't know what they are...with mineral balancing and all forage diets. Check out EquineCushings (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings) for more info. Lots of cutting edge discussion and people to help you. Start with the New Member Primer in the files section.

It sounds like you are already on the right track. Good luck to you and your horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
I think SLB should be salaried for this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What's your going rate SLB?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Martha...I'm not a professional, so I don't think I should get paid. I'm just sharing my opinions, experiences, and research. Wish HS would join in with his thoughts...but he is a professional and probably is busy with work.

My going rate...if I can get even one person to gain an understanding and get their horse in a balanced trim with sound, healthy, happy feet...then, I have been rewarded for my efforts. In the case of this thread...maybe more like 5 would be good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Meg!:
Well, the whole story is he developed an abcess one week after being reset and bleeding all over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you mean that the sole was bleeding from the trim or there was blood coming out of the abscess blowout area?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Vet thinks maybe the abcess was already there, and just didn't have anywhere to go as it was under his shoe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This doesn't sound good either. Can't really tell because I wasn't there, but an abscess under the shoe sounds like misapplication of the trim or shoe or both.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I have another mare that bled when he did her feet, and she is fine. The pony with abcess bled much more. I was a little put off because the farriers explanation was that the mare has funky feet, and she has bled before. I couldn't get a specific explanation about why my gelding bled. I've never had any trouble before, and all of ours have great feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this a different farrier than usual, or a new one? Any time a farrier draws blood, it should be questioned. Any time blood is drawn, there is a chance of damage to the sensative tissue and infection. If blood is drawn on the sole, the sole is being trimmed to thin. If is is drawn elsewhere, there better be a darn good explanation...not just "funky feet". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by betsyk:
My 20-y-o Arab has always been sickle hocked and had trouble with long toes and no heels behind, pretty much no matter what anyone did. This last trim our farrier must have decided it was time to take a chance. He took his toes WAY back, so it appears that there's about an inch of foot ahead of the tip of his frog, and voila -- he stands under himself like a normal horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't it GREAT?!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Part of me is still holding my breath, because messing with a sound 20-year-old horse carries its own risks, but he seems bright and perky and not at all sore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can understand your concern. My husband and I were discussing this very subject recently. He, too, was concerned, but I asked if his 5-7 year projects were still sound and with good feet even when they were in their late teens and my primary riding horse (at 26). He answered yes, so my reply to this would be, it might not work for all horses, but so far has worked for all that my husband has trimmed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So my question is --

His front feet appear to follow the 1/3-2/3 shape described above in this thread. That 1/3 represents quite a bit more than an inch ahead of where my untrained eye estimates the tip of the coffin bone to be. His hind feet look more like my other gelding's feet when we were in the middle of reconstruction last year -- an inch or so of foot ahead of the tip of the frog, which is much much less than 1/3 of the foot. Why not do the fronts to match the hinds? it's not like he has much for heels in front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are the fronts distored also? Sometimes you can get a 1/3 2/3 configuration and still have distortion. If that is the case, (like with underrun heels) then the hoof capsule has migrated forward and shortening the toes more than the 1/3 goal is sometimes neccessary to get the foot to move back under the horse where it belongs. I think you have a good basic understanding of all this and it sounds like your farrier has his act together also.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> will the hinds reshape themselves to create that 1/3-2/3 ratio if he ever grows a heel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, as the hoof capsule migrates gack to where it belongs, then the form will start to look more like the optimal goal. However, if the heels are not addressed, then just shortening the toe will not allow for correct form...just a distorted foot with a short toe. Do you understand the difference?

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slb

Mar. 4, 2003, 10:44 PM

There...http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif...I think we're pretty well caught up on all the posts. If we missed anyone, just hollar...not ignoring, just so many posts to keep up with.

Thanks for all your participation and thanks Martha for starting this...this is great! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Zephyr'sMom

Mar. 5, 2003, 04:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
However, I wouldn't worry as much about that as I would all the other stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your thoughts, slb.

I have to admit, I knew there were some problems, but I honestly didn't think it was as bad as all that! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (I'm referring to the sole pic.) I mean, when I bought him I thought to myself, "What fabulous feet! Nice and round, and tough. He'll never need shoes!" All I'm saying is that it's a bit nervewracking to find he's actually got some pretty bad issues.

Don't worry, I won't do anything drastic myself. Maybe after his regular farrier does him in 3 weeks, I'll take more pictures and see if you think he's improved.

I do have one more question. Martha mentioned that pastern angles had already been determined not to be a factor. But you mention a "broken back axis." What is the difference? Sorry if this seems like an elementary school question. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks!

http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

http://www.ZEGifts.com

Bensmom

Mar. 5, 2003, 04:58 AM

I too, think slb should get at least eternal gratitude, if not pay for all her work! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm on hiatus a bit at the moment. We are at D+1 for Red Hills (D-day for the barn staff being the day our riders arrive!) and I've been away from the 'net and the next five days will get worse.

However, I did want to add/ask about bleeding from a trim. Buzz bled a bit from the toe of his front foot at his reset on Monday. I looked like this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif but my farrier assured me that that happens when you square/rocker toes once in while. He said that if he had hotset him in front it would have sealed it and we would never have seen it.

I've never seen this before, and I actually wondered if he'd had a small abcess there -- he pulled that shoe a week ago, and went around without one for a couple of days. This horse abcesses more than any I've ever owned. It is almost as if he's allergic to nails and or rocks -- anything he steps on, he gets an abcess and he's had more close nails (even when they are outside the white line) than any of my farrier's other clients. Actually, he's had more than all of his other clients put together.

So, since it bled a little, stopped and he isn't pasture lame, I've not paid a whole lot of attention. He will be 3 legged lame if it develops an abcess, so I should know.

That is, if someone at the barn tells me. Today is the day I start running out of time, unless I go out at 1 am to check on them.

Speaking of problems like metabolic problems -- have you guys seen a horse like this that seems "allergic" to nails? We thought this was a joke until he had three hot nails in the same reset, all safely outside the white line and we noticed he is reacting now to any injection (the vet says he's allergic to needles) and any little cut type place is developing an abcess like area.

Really odd. Of course, Buzzy is odd, so maybe that explains it!

So, have you noticed any bleeding with a rocker or squared toe? Is it really "normal" once in a while?

Thanks!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 06:10 AM

Bensmom...IMO, a horse should never bleed. Perhaps there is a time when it happens that I am unaware of, but, in my mind, if the horse bleeds from a trim, the farrier hasn't a clue...or is pretty reckless with your animal. That's like saying its ok for you to bleed when you cut your fingernails! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If the horse bleeds, the farrier cut him too short, plain and simple. Even wnen resections are properly applied, there shouldn't be any blood. The farrier should know when to stop. In order to draw blood you have to cut into sensative tissue...not acceptable! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

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dressager

Mar. 5, 2003, 06:47 AM

I got my pictures up! Please let me know if I need to take more at different angles, etc. I took these right after I was done with my ride and dusted off his hoof with a brush (as well as I could- someone else was holding him). Please excuse the sand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hoof pictures (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm/hooves.html)

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 06:51 AM

Some comments on hot nails...
You'll need: 2 oz Scotch, 1 oz Drambuie, a dash of lemon juice, slice of lemon and orange, boiling Water, cinnamon stick... Oh, sorry, that's another thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There are a couple of ways that a hot nail can occur. One is to set the nail too close to the white line, the other is for the path of the nail to bend and come too close to the sensative tissue further up in. Also, the wall between the sensative tissue and the white line can be too thin. When this occurs, the horse might not ever be lame, or it might be lame a couple weeks after shoeing.

In some applications, I think that nails that are too big for the job might be a cause. With wide web shoes (like NBs) nail placement is criticle and small nails are required. Some farriers simply force fit larger nails into the holes. Also, if the shoe is being set back, there is a chance for a hot nail because of the placement of the nail groove in relation to the hoof.

I really shouldn't even be commenting on this stuff because I haven't had any experience with it. IMO....it simply shouldn't happen. Once maybe, if the farrier is new to the horse. But, if it happened more than once...again another simple case of incompetent farrier, or one that simply doesn't care about your animal. It's just sloppy workmanship and shouldn't be acceptable.

But, now that I ranted about that...
In this case, I guess there could be a chance that the hoof wall is very thin. If that is the case, then the farrier should seek alternatives...like barefoot or glueons...some farriers are now gluing on metal shoes. But, it still boils down to a problem with the application. The farrier should have the skill and knowledge to know if the foot needs alternative applications! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Do you think I am being too hard on your farrier? Geezzz Bensmom...I know uneducated iron hangers that have more sense than this guy. Sorry, but that's my experience. Bleeding, hot nails...just unacceptable workmanship to me.

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slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 07:04 AM

Abscessing....
I think that there are several reasons for abscesses, but your remark about allergies or more likely metabolic disorders is a good start. Many horses abscess because of unbalanced or misaligned feet, and/or thin soles. Generally, these are directly related. More often than not, correct form produces tough thick sole.

But, aside from that, horses with metabolic issues do seem to abscess more often. We have found that these horses are often mineral imbalanced...most often a magnesium or selenium/vit E deficiency...sometimes excesses of other minerals like calcium, aluminum, or iron can interfer with uptake of other minerals thus causing imbalances. Field trials that we conducted resulted in fewer to elimination of chronic abscessing in all cases.

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Dune

Mar. 5, 2003, 08:29 AM

Comment on the bleeding after trimming....never, never, never should this happen! I've been around horses for years and have seen some really not very good shoers and even those guys never drew blood. I would seriously consider finding someone else for the job! Something else to think about regarding the "hot nails", I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way. However, now that his feet are balanced, he is no longer overweight and is on more of a cushings-type "diet" he no longer reacts to the nails. This is not quite the same scenario as your horse, but I thought I'd throw it out there for you. It was just so peculiar and like I said, no vets would ever back me up on it, but it seems to be fixed now. Also, the current farrier uses very thin nails, which also help a variety of problems. Just thought I'd give you something else to think about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dune

Mar. 5, 2003, 08:37 AM

Just a quick addition, regarding the abscessing. I knew some people who were working on horses with some pretty severe hoof distortions. They would really "get into" those feet...too much, in my opinion. Those poor horses would abcess all the time. They claimed that it was the old, necrotic tissue coming out from the bad shoeing, trimming. I wasn't around to see if those horses got any better, I doubt it. I thought that they were abscessing because the trimming was compromising the hoof's integrity too much. I'm not an expert, but it just seemed like too radical. I really think that a good farrier can make some good positive changes in two, maybe three shoeings and that the horse does not have to get worse before he gets better. That was this group's spiel and I never bought into it. PS It was not a Strasser group, although I know it sounds that way. Anyway, good luck!

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 08:49 AM

WOW Dune....I thought Strasser followers had a copyright on this type of thinking! So, they're right, Strasser isn't presenting anything new...there are others out there...OMG! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 05, 2003 at 05:31 PM.]

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 02:49 PM

Dressager...your pics are ready http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
They were a little blurry, so I cleaned them up enough to talk about them. These present a very interesting issue. I think we would all agree that the sole view doesn't look to bad. I would say general shape isn't bad, but the protruding bulbs indicate contraction.

However, the side view presents the reality. The toe is long and low as well as the heel. This results in the whole foot moving forward, misplacing the weight bearing forces and forcing the horse to walk on heels that are probably painful (thus he doesn't fully weight them resulting in contraction, resulting in further pain)...that doesn't mean that he would exhibit lameness either. The red lines are the current trim with the matching coffin bone alignment to far forward. The green lines and matching (filled in) coffin bone show how the foot should be a little steeper and moved back under the leg.

There is a significant dish in the toe, so we will talk about that. I have incorrectly aligned the coffin bone with the red hoof wall angle(just thought of that and don't want to redo the pic). Had I correctly aligned it with the top of the hoof wall (where the dish is most indented) it would become evident why there is a dish to the foot. The hoof wall is moving away from the coffin bone at the bottom half of the foot. This is resulting in stretched white line and a toe flare (which I can't see, but can tell you is there). The laminar attachment at the bottom half of the coffin bone is weak. This is a setup for laminits/founder (mechanical). Some horses go their whole life like this sound, many do not.

Also wanted to add...notice how the top of the hoof wall is close to my "improved" geen hoof angle. While this is not neccessarily a correct angle, it is closer to an ideal than the red lines. The top of the hoof is trying to grow in at a "natural" and optimal angle, but the long toe and flaring take the hoof wall in another direction...resulting in the dished look. This would probably be easy to fix, just by keeping the toe short and addressing the heels.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 03:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dune:
...Something else to think about regarding the "hot nails", I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way. However, now that his feet are balanced, he is no longer overweight and is on more of a cushings-type "diet" he no longer reacts to the nails. This is not quite the same scenario as your horse, but I thought I'd throw it out there for you. It was just so peculiar and like I said, no vets would ever back me up on it, but it seems to be fixed now. Also, the current farrier uses very thin nails, which also help a variety of problems. Just thought I'd give you something else to think about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dune, I for one support you in your thoughts on this. I have seen it more than once and after 3 years of treating metabolic cases that suffered chronic laminitis and "allergies", I can attest to the improtance of how well they seem to recover when the trim is correctly balanced and their diets are addressed to meet their "low" carb needs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zephyr'sMom:
I do have one more question. Martha mentioned that pastern angles had already been determined not to be a factor. But you mention a "broken back axis." What is the difference? Sorry if this seems like an elementary school question. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No questions here are to elementary, this is just the basics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

Pastern angles are the angle that the pasterns exhibit. These are subject to change when the horse is in motion, or as the foot is moved forward or backward under the leg as the hoof angles change (or for other reasons). The angles and height of the heels also have a marked effect on pastern angle. This is evidenced when the heels become high and contracted. In order to relieve the pain, the horse starts weighting its toes...sometimes not enough for an untrained eye to notice. When this happens, it pulls the muscles short in the leg/shoulder area to help keep the painful heel from being weighted (or sometimes a non-painful heel from being over-weighted by a long toe levering the weight onto the heel). Soon the pastern and sometimes shoulder angles become steep and stay there. Think of this poor analogy...if you walk around long enough with your shoulders shrugged or head kinked over to one side, the muscles would eventually atune themselves to that position and shorten or lenghten to accommodate it. The same happens in the pastern and shoulders of the horse. If you relieve the heel pain or condition that causes "toe" walking, the pastern will relax and return to a more natural postition.

A broken axis (forward or back) is the result of the interior bones (P1, 2, and 3) not aligning on the natural central axis that is needed for pain-free and optimal movement. In the broken back axis, the toe is generally to long and the angle to low. In a broken forward axis, the toe is generally to steep and possibly to short....sometimes called club or coon footed. Although we don't want to let the pastern dictate the hoof angle, the optimal angle will generally align itself so that there is a straight axis through the center of the hoof and the pastern or P1 (coffin bone), P2 and P3 (sorry left this out). This axis optimally should not be "broken". Often, farriers use the pastern to align the hoof wall, but we have seen from the many pics posted here that the hoof can be deformed and still aligned. So, if the goal of the trim is to attain optimal form and function, rather than some "dictated" angle (that may follow a pastern angle that is to steep or shallow because the foot is painful...or for numerous other reasons), then alignment will become natural and correct (supported by x-ray studies done by Page). This allows for the pastern angles to be skewed, but doesn't affect the form of the foot, and as the foot attains optimal form, the pastern will also.

Does this rambling make sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 06, 2003 at 01:20 AM.]

katelyn

Mar. 5, 2003, 03:58 PM

slb....

Now that I think about it, he probably is carb-intolerant. He's now on about 20 lbs of hay a day (he's a 1300 lb 16.2hh boy) and maybe 3 lbs of grain. About 3 lbs of his hay is Dengie (an alfalfa/molasses/mineral mix) to keep weight on him in the winter. In the summer he's out on pasture (not lush LOL) and less hay.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KC was the same way.....we could never figure out why he was so hard to shoe (danced around, wouldn't stand, grinding teeth etc). We got the laminitis/founder taken care of. Now he'll stand ground tied to be shod. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bensmom: If he always gets hot nails....maybe consider glue on shoes? I used Singafoo shoes on KC (we used heartbars, but they also come in eggbar and regular)....a complicated process to get them on. But, they lasted a full 6-8 weeks without a thrown shoe (this was a horse turned out in heartbars without bell boots http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ). This gave his hoof wall the chance to heal and thicken so he can have shoes nailed on (with the smallest nails my farrier could find). Either way....I'd say no blood should be drawn. His toes must have been cut too short.

This thread is amazing.....

~katelyn~

asterix

Mar. 5, 2003, 04:30 PM

OK, I'm back from my xray/farrier excursion (this from the Rhodey thread a while back). Will try to obtain the digital xrays to post here.

My horse's coffin bones in both front feet were nearly flat, instead of the 3-5 degree angle they should be at. He's pretty lame at the moment.

We drew lines on the xrays to dictate where the breakover point should be (just like much discussion on this thread, further back towards the front of the coffin bone than his too-long toes had had it before).
Keep in mind this is a HUGE horse with HUGE feet; we brought the shoe back 2 cms!!! and rolled the toe.
Left room at the heel for the heel to grow down to meet the shoe.
Vet felt that wedges would only crush the heel structures more, particularly given how big my guy is.
He wanted Natural Balance shoes, but the farrier said they didn't come big enough, so he did his best to recreate the shape and balance with what he had.
Interesting side note -- vet said the medial/lateral balance was nearly perfect, which surprised him given our other problems.
We're now doing shockwave up through the frog and down from the bulb of the heel to see if we can alleviate discomfort in the areas that were getting crushed by the coffin bone/heels.

I'll try and follow up with the xrays; does this make sense so far?

Robby Johnson

Mar. 5, 2003, 04:37 PM

Rhodey got redone yesterday. He has square toes (much shorter) now, and square toe shoes to match. I guess that's a good thing.

Will photograph this week.

Robby (just in from Mardi Gras)

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 06:33 PM

Oh man...you guys had your own foot thread going and didn't invite me? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 5, 2003, 10:33 PM

Hey kids...found this interesting article on trimming to the live sole plane/high heels at the AFA site. This will be of interest to those who have underrun heels, dished toes, and parallel hoof walls/pastern angles.

Uniform Sole Thickness (http://www.americanfarriers.org/articles/article.asp?xid=2). Oh well, everyone has to have their own name for stuff. otherwise it wouldn't be their unique idea http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

dressager

Mar. 6, 2003, 12:43 AM

Thank you so much! Is there anything I can do without the farrier? I don't think he's a very experienced farrier and doesn't speak english. What do I tell him if I can find a translator? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Again, my horse and I thank you.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 12:59 AM

Check out the online trim/shoeing tutorial at Hope for Soundness (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) web site. They also sell a video that goes with it, a nice booklet that has some great pics to illustrate their information and a DIY trim guide video that they just released. Generally, the trim info is very helpful to most farriers.

Forgot the what you can do part....if you just get a rasp and keep rasping off the flares and keep the heels (where the wall turns into the bars) rasped down so that they are as close to the widest part of the frog (where the straight edge of the frog starts to turn into the rounded part) as they can be. That will help a lot. The progress will be slow, but it will happen.

Also...don't think I explained that the long toe is simply a "flare" treat it that way. Keep it backed up to the white line. Also, check out in the trim tutorial how they rasp from the toe calous upward across the toe to enhance breakover. This is a primary key to getting the form back.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 06, 2003 at 04:14 AM.]

asterix

Mar. 6, 2003, 05:55 AM

slb, there was a teensy weensy foot thread on Off Course about Rhodey's mystery lameness, but we all obediently zoomed over here once it became truly a foot thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dune

Mar. 6, 2003, 07:53 AM

SLB, thank for the link the the Savoldi article! I really want to see part II when he gets to the coffin bone. I hope that I will remember to look for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 09:50 AM

Asterix....I read the thread last night...I saw that you guys came over here for more info. Can't wait to see x-rays and more pics. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 09:54 AM

Dune....unfortunately, I have a feeling that they may not put the next section online. We used to get the AFJ, but they got a new publisher and we stayed with the old one, so we won't be getting the hard copy of the article either. They may be using that as a comeon for new subscribers.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 11:11 AM

For those dealing with long toes (flares) and underrun or long heels, here is a great site that gives instructions for trimming. This site is maintained by an ex-Strasser trimmer who turned in her certificate after a few months of applying the Strasser trim in the field. She does a nice job of explaing balanced trimming for owners. BTW, the trim would be the same, barefoot or shod, except that you can't scoop the quarts for a shod horse.
Barefoot for Soundness (http://www.barefoothorse.com/)

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

thecowboyway

Mar. 6, 2003, 12:25 PM

slb, I'm new to this thread and you seem to have lots of insights into foot managment. My question to you (I might have missed the answer somewhere and for that I appologize) is, where do you get all your information?

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 01:59 PM

WOW nmb...I thought no one would ask http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Actually, thoughout the thread I have put in many disclaimers and there was a couple of inferences of where I get my info. But, you have asked a very valid question, so for the record here are my some of my sources:

I am a farrier's wife, so we have lots of "feet" discussions in our house. Hubby specializes in theraputic cases and uses his own technique which parallels Ovnicek's Natural Balance method in many ways.

I have been interested in "natural" trim methods for about 3 years and have tried to find every source I could to research the technique.

I am on several other boards that discuss nothing but feet and trimming (generally barefoot, but it is the underlying trim that counts...barefoot or shod).

Here are a list of some of the books that I have read:
Butler's Horseshoeing Principles
Adam's Lameness in Horses
A Lifetime of Soundness, Strasser
Shoeing in Your Right Mind, Butler
Color Atlas of the Horses Foot, Pollitt
Equine Locomotion, Back and Clayton
Preventing Laminitis in Horses, Mansmann and King
Founder Prevention and Cure the Natrual Way, Jackson
New Hope for Soundness, Ovnicek
The Natural Horse: Foundations for Natural Horsemanship, Jackson
Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care, Jackson
Understanding the Equine Foot, Jurga

Magazines we subscribe to:
Hoof Care and Lameness
The American Farrier's Journal
The Anvil
The Horse
and numerous other general horsey mags

Online articles at these websites:
www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com)
www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com)
www.naturalhorsetrim.com (http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com)
www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com)
www.americanfarriers.org (http://www.americanfarriers.org)
www.hoofcare.com (http://www.hoofcare.com)
http://cvm.msu.edu/RESEARCH/efl/publications.htm (Dr. Robert Bowker's research)
www.thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com)
www.aht.org.uk (http://www.aht.org.uk)
www.hoofproject.com (http://www.hoofproject.com)
www.laminitis.org (http://www.laminitis.org)

And I have these videos:
Horse Foot Studies Video, Pollitt
EDSS Instruction Video, Ovnicek
Strasser Optimum Hoof Form - The Basic Trim

In the last year there have been some great new stuff released and I expect that I will be adding to this list over the summer.

As for my personal experience with trimming:
zippo, nada, nilch...I hold the horses while hubby trims. Like any owner, I only observe and ask questions. I don't claim to have any more understanding than any other horseowner. And, I don't claim to understand much in the way of actually trimming, other than the basics that most horseowners understand. I haven't rasped a foot in over 20 years, and never took nippers or knife to one. I have little knowledge of applying shoes, but more of forge work (hubby was a blacksmith before becoming a farrier). However, I do know in theory the proper application of a shoe and understand basic use of therapeutic devices like wedges, pads, and frog/sole support. I only know from my husband's success that correctly balanced and aligned feet make for sound, happy, healthy horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hope you aren't to disappointed....maybe you don't approve. That's ok too. I am only trying to share my knowledge and experiences. Not trying to force anyone into believing what I do. I am certainly no "expert" and find discussions like this to be exercises in knowledge for everyone. I certainly have learned from it! Just hoping that I can get others to research and try and gain an understanding of how the hoof functions and therefore how it should be trimmed to attain optimal form to accommodate that function.

So, do you disapprove? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Forgot to add...we also have a shelf full of bones and a bunch of feet in our freezer. I think that disections are one of the best ways to understand what happens under different circumstances in the foot.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 06, 2003 at 05:28 PM.]

thecowboyway

Mar. 6, 2003, 04:16 PM

Nope,not disappointed at all! I'm just amazed at your wealth of knowledge! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You put alot of thought and effort into your responses. (I was betting you were a vet)

hoofcare

Mar. 6, 2003, 04:23 PM

I seem to be hopeless with this discussion group, it must be my antique computer. I can't seem to post very easily at all but I really enjoyed seeing the photos of all the feet and shoeing jobs.

Thanks to everyone for all 23 pages of exchange and opinions and if you read through all of this, you might enjoy this conference we are working on:

Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
Hoofcare for the New Millenium
Exploring Natural Hoofcare
May 2-4, 2003
North Grafton, Massachusetts

Course description:
An in-depth examination of the options available to veterinarians, farriers and
educated owners in the correct of the horses hoof. Course will encompass
lectures, panel discussion, hands on labs and demonstrations.

The goal of this conference is to further explore the realities of natural hoof care
and what this term means. Through lectures, panel discussions and active
participant involvement, the myths and realities of both traditional and alternative
hoof care will be examined as applicable to both the healthy and diseased hoof.

Two Luncheons and a Saturday Night Kentucky Derby Event will provide an
opportunity for attendees to meet in a relaxed and informal atmosphere.

Speakers: David Hood, DVM, PhD (Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine,
and Director, The Hoof Project),
Robert Bowker, DVM, PhD (Michigan State University College of Veterinary
Medicine Equine Foot Laboratory),
Mike Wildenstein, AWCF, CJF (Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
Farrier Instructor and Lecturer),

PLUS Tufts faculty and staff such as
Carl Kirker-Head, MRCVS, Dip ACVS - Course Moderator - The Marilyn M.
Simpson Chair in Equine Medicine at Tufts University
and Mike Mooney, CJF (Tufts University farrier).

The course will be directed by Tia Nelson DVM, independently practiticing
farrier/veterinarian in Helena, Montana known as "the inventor of the four point
trim" (which makes her roll her eyes) and a widely known lecturer on the
principles and advantages of maintaining sound domestic horses without shoes
whenever the horse's environment and management allow.

Cost is $195 per person.

Contact: Continuing Education Department
Tel 508-887-4723;
Email susan.brogan@tufts.edu,
web site: www.tufts.edu/vet/continedu (http://www.tufts.edu/vet/continedu).
-- ================== C O N T A C T ==========================

::: h o o f c a r e :::
Fran Jurga, Editor and Publisher
Hoofcare & Lameness: The "Feet First" Equine Science Journal
and
Hoofcare Online: free educational e-letters for farriers,
veterinarians, therapists and horse owners
and
http://www.hoofcare.com...the horse world's home page
for hoofcare information

contact points:
:::mailto:fran@hoofcare.com
::http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gifffice tel:::USA 978 281 3222
:::mobile::: 978 857 5900
:::fax:::978 283 8775

by mail or courier:
::: Hoofcare Publishing
::: 19 Harbor Loop, Ground Floor
::: PO Box 6600
::: Gloucester MA 01930 USA

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 06:39 PM

nmb...thanks for the complement....glad I'm not a vet...job description is to tough. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Do you have feet to post for critique or to show us how good feet can be? We crave pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 06:44 PM

Fran, glad you could join us...geez...you're everywhere! How was the AFA convention? Haven't seen much intput except on your site. And thanks for the Tufts info. Sounds like a good conference.

I highly recommend Hoof Care and Lamness (http://www.hoofcare.com) be one of bookmarks in everyone's computer. Great site full of cutting edge news, and great magazine!

Two shoes up for Fran and Hoof Care! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 6, 2003, 11:45 PM

Speaking of clinics, I should probably tell you all about the Ovnicek clinic coming up in the Northeast:
* April 4th - 6th, 2003 - Gibsonia, PA: 1 Evening Lecture or Full 3 Day Clinic with Lectures, Demonstrations & Hands-on work. For more information contact Shelly at: (724) 443-0260 or e-mail: myojr@zoominternet.net

For a full brochure of the event you can download a pdf at: www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/nbhc-pitpa3day03.pdf (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/nbhc-pitpa3day03.pdf)

* April 10th - 13th, 2003 - Columbus, OH: "Equine Affaire" Gene Ovnicek will have 2 Lectures and 1 Demonstrations at the 4 day event. For more information about the event, please visit their website: www.equineaffaire.com (http://www.equineaffaire.com)

Lecture 1: How to recognize Navicular Disease before it becomes irreversible.

Lecture 2: Prevent Lameness & Improve Performance using Natural Hoof Care Guidelines.

Demo 1: Emergency Care for Laminitis; What you can do before the vet is available.

There are other clinic dates listed on their website: www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com)

I highly recommend that you attend if you get the chance. I was not able to attend his lectures last year at the Equine Affaire in MA, but was at his booth when it got over, the response from the attendees was terrific. They couldn't say enough about what they had learned. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:49 AM

Okay- here goes. I have always been relatively satisfied with the work our farrier does, nothing outstanding, but never any problems. We live in a rural area, and most of the farriers either specialize in racking/ walking horses or do not want to come out here for one horse. Well the last time he was here, he cut my mares rt front so short that (with shoes on) her frog was touching the ground. She was foot sore for a good two weeks (first all the time, then only when the ground was frozen) Then we had a few weeks of relative calm. Due to the weather I did not ride during this time, but I turned her out and put her up each day, and she was fine. As the feet started to grow back in, they did not match. Monday (a little over 7 weeks since last trim) I go out to the barn and she is lame, swollen right leg, although not hot. Hoof is warm, not hot. It was quite muddy, and I think she twisted/ stepped funny. Anyway I rubbed the leg down and kept her in that day. By evening the swelling was down, leg was tight and she was not as lame. By the next morning she wasn't "lame", a little off, taking smaller steps than usual, but no obvious favoring of either limb. That is how it stands now. Farrier comes tommorrow, and I am going to have to say something to him- right now I am inclined to just have him pull her shoes (she only has them on the front) and leave her barefooted until I find a new farrier. Am I over reacting? The things that concern me the most are 1) the feet clearly do not match 2) the rt front frog has went from a wonderful springy triangle to a shriveled, shedding one and 3) rt coronary band- what is that??? (see pics) Anyway I am anxious for everyones opinions and advice. I am pretty upset about this and am practicing what I am going to say, so I don't start crying tomorrow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Thanks, Nikki
also- I apologize in advance for posting all these pics, I need help.

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:50 AM

left solar

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:52 AM

rt profile

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:53 AM

rt solar

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:56 AM

I have never had a horse abcess before, is this an abcess getting ready to pop? Some sort of blister due to uneven pressure? This is new, as of this morning...

nikki3

Mar. 7, 2003, 07:58 AM

I appreciate any help I can get here--
Thanks,
Nikki

slb

Mar. 7, 2003, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nikki3:
....Well the last time he was here, he cut my mares rt front so short that (with shoes on) her frog was touching the ground.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Check back a few pages for the new hoof balance information. Also www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) trim tutorial. Both indicate that optimal function requires that the frog touch the gound...however, there is a right way and a wrong way to accomplish this.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>She was foot sore for a good two weeks (first all the time, then only when the ground was frozen) Then we had a few weeks of relative calm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This, obviously, was not the right approach for getting the frog to touch the gound...sounds like he cut her too short. What you experienced was common.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Due to the weather I did not ride during this time, but I turned her out and put her up each day, and she was fine. As the feet started to grow back in, they did not match.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, only hazarding a guess on this, but from what I can see, it seems that when the foot grew back in, that it started to attain a more correct angle. But, the thing that puzzels me is that it must have been at this angle all along...it didn't have time to grow a whole new angle in 7 weeks. Most likely, it just became noticable after this trim. The toe is still to long, but the angle is much improved over the other foot. The red lines on the right foot are the angles of the left foot superimposed. The yellow lines are much closer to optimal form....but since each horse is different, I can't say how close they are.

The left foot is much to long in toe and low in angle. Notice the dish in the left toe? This shows that the bottom of the hoof wall is starting to flare away from the optimal parallel position with the coffin bone. I'm guessing that there is some white line separation under the shoe in the toe area. This is the same as a flare and should be removed to balance the foot. Also, notice that when a parallel red line is placed on the heel that it fails to match up. Although not every foot has exact matching angles between toe and heel, they should be similar...closer than these.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Monday (a little over 7 weeks since last trim) I go out to the barn and she is lame, swollen right leg, although not hot. Hoof is warm, not hot. It was quite muddy, and I think she twisted/ stepped funny. Anyway I rubbed the leg down and kept her in that day. By evening the swelling was down, leg was tight and she was not as lame. By the next morning she wasn't "lame", a little off, taking smaller steps than usual, but no obvious favoring of either limb. That is how it stands now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like another option might be an abscess. If her angles were radically changed, foot cut to short, and/or weather conditions were unfavorable (to wet or frozen), then these could all contribute to abscessing. Also, the coronary band problem could either be the abscess trying to break out, or an injury from playing or banging into something.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Farrier comes tommorrow, and I am going to have to say something to him- right now I am inclined to just have him pull her shoes (she only has them on the front) and leave her barefooted until I find a new farrier. Am I over reacting?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pulling her shoes and getting the feet to come into a more natural form may be a good thing, but can't say without having been there. I can understand your concern. As far as over reacting...that depends. The form of the feet can be easily changed for the better. However, finding someone who understands how to do it may be a problem. It probably isn't this guy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The things that concern me the most are 1) the feet clearly do not match 2) the rt front frog has went from a wonderful springy triangle to a shriveled, shedding one and 3) rt coronary band- what is that??? (see pics)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The feet can be taken back to better form so they "look" alike. However, if you are considering that the left is the better form, it is not.

The heels and toes are too long on both. In the sole pics you can see that the distance from optimal heel placement (which you have not obtained) to the widest part of the foot and then from there to the current point of breakover is about equal distance (black lines/red arrows on side). The red line on the sole indicates where your current heel placement is...it should be moved back to the black line or the widest part of the frog (where the straight edges turn into the rounded part). The blue line shows where optimal breakover should fall...based on what I thought was the toe calous in the picture. This calous protects the tip of the coffin bone and can be used as a landmark for determining point of breakover.

The frog problem appears to be from contraction. The green line between the heels shows how much small that space is than the one on the other foot...much closer to ideal. The heels of that foot appear to be coming in toward the frog and are even tighter than the shoes. Speaking of shoes, if this is time for a reset, I can see quite a bit of hoof wall over the edge of the shoe. Considering it has only been 7 weeks, this seems like the shoe may be to small for the foot. The foot is probably one of those "in between" sizes and the farrier selected a small shoe and fit the foot into it, rather than altering a larger shoe to fit the foot. I must add on this comment, without being there, it is difficult to determine what happened, so this is just a guess. It could also be that the foot grew excessively in that time.

The other foot is also about 1/2 1/2...again from the current point of breakover to the optimal heel placement. However, to accommodate function and correct alignment and weight bearing, the rear of the foot should have more weight bearing surface. Ideal goal would be 1/3 2/3 (front/back).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>also- I apologize in advance for posting all these pics, I need help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's ok Nikki...we like pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hope this helps you with your farrier. If you have questions maybe we can get them answered before he comes.

Geezzz....keep forgetting to add the pics.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique * http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

HossShoer

Mar. 8, 2003, 02:56 AM

WOW, Fran's here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Welcome to the COTH BB.Thank you for the info on the Tuffs Natural Hoofcare Conference.
Regards John

hoofcare

Mar. 8, 2003, 03:53 PM

Hey, John (I think I know which John from Ontario you are) and everyone,

I really enjoy reading the Chronicle forums but have a terrible time posting. I have to quit out of IE and open Netscape and then the type is too small to read.

One thing these 24 pages have shown me is the wide range of shoeing styles we have for normal horses. The feet you all have posted are "real feet" not the picture perfect ones I see all the time at conference presentations.

One thing I like seeing is that so many of the shoes and nail heads do show wear, meaning that these horses are being used. It has been miserable here all winter and few horses are getting ridden on any surface that would wear the shoes, though some of the indoor surfaces can be really abrasive to the wall.

In my job, I get to hang around with some terrific farriers who are sooooo good at what they can do for lame horses. But I keep my horse in a "real world" boarding barn where farriers are nailing on out-of-the-box St Croixs and a good number of th e horses are unshod. Most of the horses have a resale value that is roughly equivalent to a year's worth of farrier bills at $100 or so a set. They're ex-racehorses, QHs, Morgans, you-name-it, and maybe their average age is a bit high...

That said, there is relatively little lameness other than pasture cuts and the like. These horses are ridden over rough, rocky trails and on deep sand on the beach and most are weekend warriors who aren't in great shape. It amazes and delights me how sound they are, espe cially because so many have conformational faults and/or clubby feet.

The farriers at this barn aren't superstars, and I don't think any except mine is AFA certified, and none of them have big shiny trucks. If you went to a conference and looked at these horses afterwards you'd think "wow, those toes are long" or "wow, why so many nails".

There aren't any NB shoes in use, no Equipak or impression material, very few pads, etc., although most the barefoot ones use or have on hand Old Macs, a great new product (in my opinion).

They're just horses, and lots of them would be en route to French dinner tables if their owners tried to sell them. And the shoers and trimmers are just doing their job and seem to understand the value of the horse and the budgets of the owners.

It's a beautiful thing when it works for the owner and the farrier and most of all for the horses.

I know we all think that our horses could be balanced a bit differently or we worry about that dish in the toe or high-low fronts, but if your horse is sound and has been for a while, you are so lucky. I hear from people every day in dire straits in the most expensive barns and in the most forsaken corners of the globe (even an owner of a foundered horse in Iraq the other day who wonders how to evacuate a lame horse). They feel helpless standing by as their horses suffer.

Yeah, if your horse is sound, don't change too much. Hug your farrier, and pat yourself on the back.

Thanks for letting me see what's under your horses. It's been an education for me, too.

Fran Jurga
Hoofcare & Lameness: Journal of Equine Foot Science
and "Hoofcare Online" e-newsletter
www.hoofcare.com… (http://www.hoofcare.com…)

HossShoer

Mar. 8, 2003, 04:42 PM

Hey Fran, yeap it's me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Are you coming up for the Ontario Farriers Convention April 11 & 12 in Guelph? Bob Racich abd Mike Pownall are on Friday and Myron is on Saturday.
Regards John

Ponio

Mar. 8, 2003, 05:04 PM

Making not so great feet better...

My horse was started saddleseat at a fairly young age. This means they shod him and grew his feet long when he was about two. Because of this his feet never had the opportunity to develope and spread. His toes are always very long and it is nearly impossible to get them short enough and his angles aren't that great. This causes the feet to be thinner at the toe so it is more brittle. He has good feet (as in the actual tissue is very healthy) but because of the way they grow they are not as strong as they could be.

Are there any shoeing/not shoeing tecniques that might help his feet be less like this?

I will try to get pictures but I probably won't be able to until next weekend...

Silk

Mar. 10, 2003, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
The reason they continue is that they are instructed that shoeing and traditional trims (whatever that means) have damaged the inside of the foot (even if it isn't that evident on the outside) to the point that it will take 1 or more years to completely heal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok...here's the funny thing: We have a "Strasser Follower" at my barn. Her horse has a rotation in the right coffin bone, and she is convinced this will "fix" him. Well, I pulled the shoes off my pony this winter, because he was on Vacation while I concentrated on my three year old. The pony is sound as a dollar. Here's the kicker: She says to me the other day "she noticed bruising on the pony's back feet (he has pink backs) and this is because of the hoof being able to "heal itself" without the damaging shoes.

I just smiled and nodded, as she was pointing out all of the "healing" going on in his little hoofs.

Guess what? This pony NEVER had back shoes on in his life! All the "healing" without shoes musts been spontaneous from just removing the front shoes? All I know is her horse is still dead lame after 9 months of this -- and the blacksmith actually had him sound with pads and a heartbar shoe.

**>>It's not bragging if you can back it up!<<**

Debbie

Mar. 12, 2003, 02:38 PM

GREAT THREAD!! I can't believe I've missed it for so long. I'm in a constant quandry over my horse's feet and wondering if he's "right." We pulled his shoes for awhile based on advice from the vet school and he grew much more foot in seemingly the right place (how's that for technical insight) but was off and sore for at least two weeks after every trim, so I was riding 3 weeks out of five -- not very promising. Now he's back in shoes, I've had him shod (front only) 3 different times, by two different farriers and his feet have looked quite different between the two farriers. I just read all 24 pages and am heading home to look at his feet through new eyes. I'm sure I'll have questions and will post photos as well, but have to say up front that I'm just so thrilled to have found so much to refer to here and to now have people to ask.

Bensmom -- my hat is off to you for how you've studied and thought through your horses' issues and the photos and xrays have been very informative.

slb -- wowsa, you know some stuff!! But even better you explain it incredibly well and the visual aids with the lines and whatnot are invaluable.

Thanks guys; I'll be back to pester you with questions....

slb

Mar. 12, 2003, 07:49 PM

Fran raises some interesting points. And, I would have to agree....to talk about obtaining optimal hoof form is easy and one thing...to actually do it, is another http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Even the most skilled farriers (especially the most skilled) will tell you that they rarely, if ever attain that optimal form, but that is the goal that they are always striving for. With the foot being a living, changing thing, fomulated by every change in body, management and environment, there is little that can be done to realize that "picture perfect", optimal form. However, to ignore the benefits of attaining it, or write off the principles that guide us toward it, is to dismiss our duties as horseowners...but, its evident that's why we are all here discussing this...because we all care and want to be better horseowners.

At most times during the year you can see my horses with toes to long, or heels to high, chips and some cracks where flares are being naturally removed...ok, so when you're the farrier's horses its hard to get an appointment!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, they don't have underrun heels, or totally unbalanced, misaligned feet. They are generally barefoot and self-maintaining, so depending on the conditions of the ground and how overdo for a trim they are, at any time they may be looking anything but optimal...don't actually have any that ever does look optimal...maybe one on trim day. But, they all ride anywhere sound, and that is, as Fran pointed out, an important issue.

However, on that note, I would also remind everyone that lots of horses go sound for years in long toes,underrun heels with contraction, and misaligned, unbalanced feet...but I also see so many posts that ask why is my horse lame...he never used to be? Why do I need joint supplements, chiros, and massage for my horse at age 5-10? Why does my horse look old at age 10? Why does my horse stumble, interfer, refuse to jump, or perform certain moves? Why does he have wind puffs, tendonitis, or other worse things wrong with his legs? How did he get ringbone or navicular?

We also have lots of backyard trail horses in our area and farriers with anything but shinny trucks (some don't even have trucks)...and horses that go everywhere sound. But, generally, the feet aren't too bad looking...not sure how or why that happens...many of the shoers around here haven't even been to school...maybe that's why.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif They wouldn't know optimal form if you asked them, they wouldn't agree on how many nails or what size is optimal either. But, they are getting the job done and their customers like them, 'cause their horses walk away sound...never lame. But, they also don't ask much of their horses either.

So, there is a lot to be said for those who attempt to do a good job...realizing it or not...and those who just don't "get it". Regardless of if they "get it" or not, the majority of farriers are out there to help horses, not harm them and should be commended for their efforts. I, for one, would not get under a horse 5-7 days a week (not even 1) for a living...to much like work! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 12, 2003, 08:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ponio:
_Making not so great feet better..._

My horse was started saddleseat at a fairly young age. This means they shod him and grew his feet long when he was about two. Because of this his feet never had the opportunity to develope and spread. His toes are always very long and it is nearly impossible to get them short enough and his angles aren't that great. This causes the feet to be thinner at the toe so it is more brittle. He has good feet (as in the actual tissue is very healthy) but because of the way they grow they are not as strong as they could be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ponio...this is a good subject to bring up here. There is some question about returning the hoof to optimal condition if the underlying structures are damaged. Sometimes horses raised in stalls or soft paddocks with little turnout as foals...or for other reasons...develop misshapen coffin bones and support structures like the lamina and digital cushion lack integrety. Bowker even noted in his studies that there is a particular "ledge" that projects out from the lateral cartilages in some domestic horses with generally good feet (like Arabs) and not in those with poor or misshapen feet (like Standardbreds). To put it in terms relative to optimal function: "The foot hits the ground. The bars of the heel come up, hit the axial projection of the lateral cartilage (a tiny shelf of cartilage that sits under the digital cushion in many good-footed horses), which in turn collides with the digital cushion. Blood is sucked up and back from the front of the foot to the blood vessels in the cartilage. Healthy feet have thick cartilage with complex venous networks to transmit and dissipate energy. Unhealthy feet have thin cartilage, might lack the one-piece "shelf" under the digital cushion, and have blood vessels on the inside edge of the cartilage instead of imbedded in it."

So, try as we might to restore optimal form and function to a horse that has sturtural deformitiies, it may not happen. But, the question here would be, should we try? From what I have seen, in general, yes, most horses benefit from it...some even regain the majority of optimal function. However, as with humans, there is no cure-all for anything...and words like always and never (and maybe even optimal) are scary and maybe shouldn't be in our dictionary!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ponio...we eagerly await your pics and will try to give you our best "guess" and only hope that we can give you some ideas to help your horse...

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 12, 2003, 08:26 PM

Debbie...I hope that was a promise and thanks for the words of support.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yep...Bensmom (and some others) have been great throughout this thread...don't think that I have ever had to think so hard about answering questions.

Big Thanx to Martha for starting it! It's the longest and best foot thread that I have ever been on...and with little disagreement http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Not saying I want everyone to agree with me either...and would enjoy the mental exercises involved in debate. But, discussion is just as helpful and generally less emotional.

COTH forum rules http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 14, 2003, 02:37 PM

Oh no, you guys let this slip on to the second page.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Bump....

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

katarine

Mar. 14, 2003, 02:57 PM

JJ< 8 YO QH , used solely for trail/goofing off.
Told the farrier to rocker the front toes, got this instead. His legs are a mighty fine mess from hell, heels are crushed and underrun---now I'm looking at squared forehooves, too. Oh Goody.

If he was yours, what would you do? This is the BEFORE Picture

"Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
Bugs Bunny

katarine

Mar. 14, 2003, 02:58 PM

this is the after.

"Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
Bugs Bunny

katarine

Mar. 14, 2003, 02:59 PM

here's the after

"Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
Bugs Bunny

katarine

Mar. 14, 2003, 03:01 PM

and JJ LF sole

"Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
Bugs Bunny

Charisma

Mar. 14, 2003, 05:22 PM

This is a great thread!!

My farrier has been working on my new 3 year old QH since I bought him in January. My QH came to me with terrible feet, you guessed it, long toes, foot way out in front, low, to little heel. He has blown out several abcess on his coronary bands (on 3/4 feet). Horse starts out a little stiff when you first start working with him, but works out of it. Was short strided when I bought him.

My farrier trimmed up the foot, changed the angles slightly and rocked the toe. My horse adjusted well to the trim, and the second time the farrier came out to reset, he said my horse held the angles well. The foot is better placed under the leg. My horse still starts out stiff, but does work out of it, his stride has opened up a little bit (Yeah!)

Here is my question. Do you think he is starting out stiff because of his feet, changing the angles and such? Could it be heel pain? Or do you think it is something else? Is it common for a horse to be stiff due to his feet changing?

(When I had him vetted, he flexed and hoof tested clean. The vet didn't seem concerned about his slight stiffness.)

He is out to pasture for 10-12 hrs a day, and I have him on a joint supp. Any ideas...comments?

Ponio

Mar. 14, 2003, 08:22 PM

I have the digital camera all set up and I plan to take pictures tomorrow. I'm excited to hear what you all have to say... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The bber previously known as 5mgn...

"The sweetest of all sounds is praise." --Xenophon

Bensmom

Mar. 14, 2003, 10:24 PM

Just dipping in -- boy I have lots of catching up to do!

Debbie -- thanks so much for the compliment! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Mostly I get lots of strange looks and many folks thing I am very odd, but both of my boys are better off having a strange mom http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A couple of things before I head back to read and catch up . . .

First, the farrier fixed Ben's back feet (I think several pages back I was not happy as he was broken again, and figured out that his toes were too long in back and the farrier had let his m/l balance slip) and WOW! He is so much better! The wide behind waddle is gone, and his first dressage clinic since his ligament injury in November went great -- now I just have to *keep* him balanced. <sigh>

and Second -- can y'all explain egg bar shoes to me? I was thinking through the physics of them tonight, and that is basically what Bear has on (he's back, way back, on page 12 or 13 or something!)

It seems, just from a physics point of view (and keep in mind here that I only did well in physics because the about to retire prof lost my midterm and so gave me an A+ on it when he couldn't locate it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) that the way an eggbar is made, it would almost create the effect of an underrun heel in way that it bears weight.

In other words, since in order to not hang totally off the back of the foot, doesn't the shoe cut back in before the edge of the heel, or before the edge of where the heels should be? Why doesn't this move the weight bearing surface forward, much like an underrun heel moving the weight bearing surface out in front of the boney column?

I can't see how they work -- can one of y'all enlighten me?

Thanks!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

slb

Mar. 14, 2003, 11:23 PM

Ok Bensmom...I'll take a shot at this...not good a physics either! Maybe HS will be around to help with this poor explaination.

To me it is relatively simple. First, I am not sure about what you mean by: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In other words, since in order to not hang totally off the back of the foot, doesn't the shoe cut back in before the edge of the heel, or before the edge of where the heels should be? Why doesn't this move the weight bearing surface forward, much like an underrun heel moving the weight bearing surface out in front of the boney column?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not too up on eggbars or any shoes for that matter, but from my understanding of the application, the purpose and correct application of an eggbar is to support the boney column by extending out behing the foot.

I have included a sideview of Bear in his eggbar for illustration. The red lines indicate his current base of support...and if you actually follow the line down onto the shoe and to the ground where the support really is...then you will see that because of the current (as per this pic) underrun condition of the heels, that the base of support gets smaller as it goes groundward.

The green lines indicate the current base of support that the eggbar affords him....notice it is nearly twice as long and extends back under the boney column where his foot actually should be.

Now notice the yellow "trim" line...more in keeping with a balanced trim that addresses the underrun heel and by shortening it (because it is to long) and thus, moving it back...that just by trimming alone, the base of support is moved back to approx where the eggbar is currently supporting his foot.

So, the question now becomes, does he really need the eggbar? How would you handle this in a barefoot situation? What does the eggbar provide that a balanced trim couldn't? That's not to say that eggbars don't serve a purpose, or that this should be attempted barefoot, or even that Bear should be without shoes. All of these things should be evalutated on an individual basis.

Hope this makes sense Libby....

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Ponio

Mar. 15, 2003, 03:34 PM

I have pictures

I have finally gotten the pictures I promised last week. I appologize for the squishy appearance of his feet--he was standing in mud for several hours before I took them.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to say!!!

Here are the front feet (I have no solar shots because he is wearing snow pads still)

The bber previously known as 5mgn...

"The sweetest of all sounds is praise." --Xenophon

Ponio

Mar. 15, 2003, 03:34 PM

And here are the back feet (WITH solar shots)

The bber previously known as 5mgn...

"The sweetest of all sounds is praise." --Xenophon

Robby Johnson

Mar. 15, 2003, 03:41 PM

I'm going to snap Rhodey's pics tomorrow morning. An update! Libby, his eggbars do trail behind (one of the important reasons they must always be in bell boots), but I understand the farrier to mean they also supported the bony column and were the best option when you were trying to realign it.

Robby

"Don't mince words, don't be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive"
Madonna

dressager

Mar. 15, 2003, 10:54 PM

Update: Just talked to my farrier on the phone through a translator... no notice that he was coming today. I keep trying to get my point across that the toe needs to be short and he needs to address the heel... talked about the dish... he said it was natural and there was nothing he could do about it.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
California, here we come!!!

slb

Mar. 16, 2003, 07:06 AM

Ponio...I had to study for this test! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope everyone takes a look at your pics as they present an unusual situation. I was very surprised with the solars as this is not the norm for a foot shaped like this. Generally, when the foot is too long overall, there is contraction in the heels and the frog is very narrow. However, in your case, the shape of the feet from the solar view is very good. The only thing that I see is some possible white line stretching....especially in the toe area...but it could just be the pic. however, I would expect to see it with the dish in the toe.

In the left view, the red line shows that there is a dish in the toe wall...to be expected with to long a toe. Additionally, the red line on the hairline shows that there is some excess pressure on the heels (too long) that is resulting in a raise in the line. The white line that I drew on the left view follows the top or the hoof wall (where the dish begins) and what is the "natural" path of the hoof wall and the angle it wants to grow at. Note that is in direct relationship to the line on the heel wall....this is good.

On the front views, note again that the hairline is not parallel to the ground and that it wants to "curl up" at the outside. This again indicates too much pressure in the heels.

A repeat of similar things can be seen on the right view. The only concerns I have overall, is that the toes are dished and it appears that the right shoe is not correctly adjusted to support the heel...it appears to far forward and not back fully under the heel. This could be a camera angle problem.

After careful consideration of your pics, I think that I would refer to look at the AFA article on Uniform Sole Thickness (http://www.americanfarriers.org/articles/article.asp?xid=2) that explains about "false sole". I think that if you were to get x-rays for your farrier to trim by, that it may be a highly likely possibility that your horse has false soles on all four feet and that they could safely be removed and the foot returned to a normal length.

I hope this helps and keep us posted on your findings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 16, 2003, 07:27 AM

Charisma....your questions are not easy to answer. I think that it sounds like your farrier is addressing the issues with the feet and overtime, the stiffness may resolve itself, and it may not. Each case is so different that there simply can't be any yes or no answers.

There are other issues that could be the cause of the stiffness...joint degeneration from unbalanced feet, heel pain (often classified as navicular) from contraction or imbalances, arthritis, nutritional deficiencies...specifically mineral or essential fatty acids.

It sounds like you are on the right path and that it will take time to determine what exactly all the problems are. I would give him more time to adjust to the new trim and to let his joint supplement take hold. Then look for other issues/answers.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 16, 2003, 07:31 AM

dressager...how frustrating and discouraging. I wonder if he also thinks that it is "natrual" for the white line to be stretched in the toe?

Would it be possible for you to rasp the toe back a little and rasp the heels down a little? Even if you are doing just a little every couple of weeks in between trims, it should help a lot.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Ponio

Mar. 16, 2003, 02:47 PM

slb- Thanks for all the tips/info! We actually had xrays done less than a year ago (as part of his pre-purchase). Now I just have to get them from the vet and to the farrier!

The bber previously known as 5mgn...

"The sweetest of all sounds is praise." --Xenophon

slb

Mar. 16, 2003, 09:51 PM

If the farrier has made some changes to the angles or balance of her feet, then you may need a new set to see where the coffin bone currently lies.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Mar. 17, 2003, 02:02 AM

For anyone who may be having a problem understanding why underrun heels are to long and not to short, I posted a pic in the "Hoof/Shoe Problem" thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5206053911&m=89560541) that should help explain the reasoning behind my maddness... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

dressager

Mar. 17, 2003, 03:50 AM

slb- I don't know how to rasp (nor do I have one/know where to get one) a horse... nor do I understand how to do it WITH the shoe on!

Is the white line you speak of something you saw on my horse or in general (like White Line the condition)?

Just trying to learn... sorry if my questions are odd.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
California, here we come!!!

slb

Mar. 17, 2003, 09:20 AM

Oh duh...sorry Dressager...I'm so used to my own barefoot horses...sometimes I write before I think. You're right, you can't rasp with shoes on.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Your questions aren't odd and you raise another good subject - the white line. The white line sets just inside the hoof wall (when looking at a solar view). It is the external extention of the lamina that bonds the hoof wall to the coffin bone. The very essence of what holds the foot together. That means that it is important that it be a solid, healthy connection. A healthy WL is thin, dense, evenly formed (of even thickness), and parallels the hoof wall. There shouldn't be any wavyness to the line, any stretching, any holes or crumbling to it, and it shouldn't be black or dark in color.

When a toe dishes, I can tell you that the white line stretches without even seeing it. It is just the laws of physics. This is a very good indicator (landmark) for determining balance. When uneven forces are applied, the attachment is strained and streches. This is apparent in flares of all sorts. In a dished toe, the stretching goes from the ground up to the point where the dish begins. The top part of the foot is generally trying to grow in a "natural" or optimal direction for that foot (parallel to the coffin bone), but when it reaches a certain point it starts turning out away from its parallel growth to accommodate the long toe.

This long toe also leverages the foot backward and forces the horse to exert unnatural forces on the rear of the hoof. So, even if the horse should have heel pain from contraction, navicular, or other problems, you may never know because the horse can't do the normal thing to indicate heel pain...relieve the pressure by weighting its toes instead....it is forced to weight its heels and in addition, exert unusual forces on the tendons (often the underlying forces behind bows.

Additionally, the fact that the white line is damaged also means that the attachment to the coffin bone is weak...thus the whole hoof is weak setting it up for problems. It also means that oppotunistic bacteria and fungus, like White Line Disease (WLD), are open for invitation. This is the exact same mechanism that occurs in the foundered foot that grows a "slipper" toe look. The battle that is waged to prevent the coffin bone from rotating or sinking is grounded on regaining a stong WL attachment as soon as possible.

I have attached a pic of stretched WL. Note the wide dark area that goes from the hoof wall to the white colored sole area. This is the streched white line. This particular foot also had a dish from growing long toes.

Hope this helps...

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *