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Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:30 AM
I realize many ads in The Chronicle tend to be self-serving but this one just about turned my stomach.

Isn't he about due for a ten year review? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:30 AM
I realize many ads in The Chronicle tend to be self-serving but this one just about turned my stomach.

Isn't he about due for a ten year review? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Louise
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:41 AM
This could be a sticky topic. Remember to stick to published facts (not on a bb) only. No rumors or innuendos.

jrmasm
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:42 AM
could you please tell me if the Harrisburg results are in that issue?? I need to know if I should go buy it!

Thanks

As Miss Maam says "Mommy isn't always a pain in the a**"

Glimmerglass
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:59 AM
>> many ads in The Chronicle tend to be self-serving <<

Regrettably this seems to be getting worse, too. It would be a very sad day when The Chronicle is nothing more than a weekly version of 'Show Circuit' magazine.

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2001, 09:28 AM
As long as The Chronicle of The Horse has the same great articles, results, letters and information about Hunting and Horses in Sport, I don't mind if trainers and owners put in full page advertisements.
They pay for the magazine.

Now if the ads made less room for the features that I do like then I would not be happy /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I am confident the COTH would never lower her standards. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have been reading this wonderful magazine since the 50's and other than not seeing anymore racing or Cooky McClung, boohoo, it is the same. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TSWJB
Oct. 31, 2001, 09:43 AM
i think what paul valliere did was despicable. but doesn't anyone believe in forgiving. he is paying for his crime against animals. there is a chance that he feels badly for what he did. if he wants to donate to animals then that is a good thing. the animals can sure benefit from his donations. have you ever done somthing wrong and felt remorse about it and hoped that people would forgive you? paul valliere went from a top top eq trainer to not even allowed on a horse show grounds. i am sure he feels the punishment. no one can get inside his head & know for sure if he truly feels remorse or if he just wants to be reinstated. but i think it is not right for someone to knock someone for trying to do something good. he wants to donate his money for a good cause. i do not feel this is disgusting!

buryinghill2
Oct. 31, 2001, 09:47 AM
I don't get the print version of the Chronicle. What does this ad say?

Dry Clean Only
Oct. 31, 2001, 10:13 AM
Don't kid yourself - Paul is STILL a top eq trainer, just not ON show grounds.

Lord Helpus
Oct. 31, 2001, 10:25 AM
Yep, Paul rents a place adjacent to Wellington and his people school in his ring and walk on over to show. They have been doing that for years.

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Oct. 31, 2001 at 07:57 PM.]

Sunday
Oct. 31, 2001, 10:26 AM
What some people might think is self serving, is informative to others.

And I agree with Bumpkin and Dry Clean Only.

Lucassb
Oct. 31, 2001, 10:29 AM
It is a small, text only ad that says he will donate 50% of his lesson fees toward the support of animals affected by the events of Sept. 11 in NYC.

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

buryinghill1
Oct. 31, 2001, 10:46 AM
Barney and Paul are more successful than ever.
Don't think not being on the show grounds will ruin their businesses. They're busier than ever - right around the corner...
Lindemann Jr went on with his life, as did the others...

We just don't have to break bread with them. Suits me just fine.

dublin
Oct. 31, 2001, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Lindemann Jr went on with his life, as did the others... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad the various horses that were killed didn't have that option.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
Still proud to be a UCLA Bruins football fan!

Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 11:20 AM
Oh, I think it's great that he wants to donate money to a good cause! Many, many people have but they did not publish the fact in a magazine along with their phone numbers and their show schedule.

buryinghill2
Oct. 31, 2001, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
Oh, I think it's great that he wants to donate money to a good cause! Many, many people have but they did not publish the fact in a magazine along with their phone numbers and their show schedule.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point Midge. Really makes you feel the donations are from the heart doesn't it?

Goodmudder
Oct. 31, 2001, 11:42 AM
Well, I guess that the board ran out of people to trash, now that we've exhausted all the bad things we can say about certain others, so we needed a new one?
I respectfully suggest that those of us who do not know any facts, but just second hand info, refrain from rehashing this topic. Feel free to patronize whomever you choose, or to not patronize those that you choose not to. But also live and let live. This board has been totally negative lately, and I hate it. What's the point, just to see yourself in print?

VTrider
Oct. 31, 2001, 11:48 AM
Again, how will any actions by Paul Valliere affect the lives of anyone on this BB? So why bitch about it?

867-5309
Oct. 31, 2001, 12:13 PM
ditto.

"Are you doing the litmus configuration?"
~Jonathan Mardukis~
Midnight Run

Michelle Mc
Oct. 31, 2001, 12:50 PM
"...affect the lives of anyone on this BB..."

We bred and raised one of the horses who died. It will affect my life forever.
Otherwise, I would not have commented.

baymare
Oct. 31, 2001, 12:54 PM
But I confess to being made profoundly uncomfortable by the ad. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What's the point, just to see yourself in print?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hardly think a post on a BB is 'seeing yourself in print.' /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am commenting on an advertisement in the latest issue of The Chronicle. It didn't just come out of thin air in a desire to find a new person to trash.

PV's actions will affect me when he is up for his ten year review and people who think winning is more important than moral integrity start talking about all the great stuff he's done, in part because he disguises advertising as a call for social consciousness. It will affect me if I have to see him standing at the ingate, sending students into the ASPCA Maclay class.

He is welcome to be forgiven and live his life. I do not think he is welcome to be a member of USAE and when his suspension is up for review, you can bet I will have more to say on the subject. I'll be sure to make my subject explicit so you don't have to read anything negative.

JustJumpIt19
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:02 PM
Call me stupid but what exactly did this guy do before?

~Courtney~

RumoursFollow
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:12 PM
its time to let that go and move on. Atleast we dont have to look at them @ the ingate.

But I DO think its tacky and utterly tasteless to use a tragedy to promote your business. But then again, we knew he was tacky and tasteless long ago. Ah well.. to each their own. If he burns in hell its nobodys fault but his own.

------------------------------
Yeehaw- Formerly RF
COTH BB Resident Cowgirl
"She's gone country.. look at them boots, shes gone country.. back to her roots, shes gone country, a new kind of suit.. SHES GONE COUNTRY!! HERE SHE COMES!!! :P

matt3443
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:18 PM
Courtney - he was involved with the killings of some horses in order to receive the insurance for them. He was, and still is, a top eq trainer in new england.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

N&B&T
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:48 PM
Suppose the ad in question had been placed by a trainer other than Paul Valliere? How would you react then?

JustJumpIt19
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:50 PM
Ew, someone near where I board did that. Sick. Fortunatley they are no longer in the business.

~Courtney~

Jane
Oct. 31, 2001, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NP Fisher:
Suppose the ad in question had been placed by a trainer other than Paul Valliere? How would you react then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would wonder the motive behind it, regardless, but certainly would take more notice if it was P.V., B.W, or George Jr. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to make the donation, I just don't understand why anyone would feel the need to announce it to the world as well......

buryinghill1
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:04 PM
Did anybody notice in the SAME issue is another BB favorite celebrity? Remember all the "puppy mill" threads?
I just thought it was ironic.

PV's 50% could be a lot of money. More than I gave. More than most of us can scrape up.
If the same 50% came from a less notorious personality we'd have nothing to chat about. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

InWhyCee
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:14 PM
I don't know who Paul Valliere is, but to spend money to announce your "generosity" to the public is TACKY... about as tacky as asking for cash in lieu of a gift on your wedding invitation.

Did the Goldolphin Stable take out an ad in the DRF to announce they were giving ALL their Breeders' Cup winnings away? Did Leona Helmsley run an ad in the Times after she pitched in $5 million? (OK, no one likes Leona Helmsley, but she did the right thing.)

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

Coreene
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:18 PM
InWhyCee, you go girl. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jSTR
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:19 PM
we all make mistakes. Granted, his was an exceptionally bad one, but was a mistake, nonetheless. A lot of people hate him just because of his mistake. Paul Valliere has done a whole lot for me. I've cliniced with him-- he gave me a seat. He's given me horses to ride, because he didn't think I had enough "saddle time", he's stopped his lessons to compliment me if he saw me doing something right, or if he saw me doing something wrong (I've never "trained" with him, but my trainer used his ring). He happens to be a very nice man.
What he did he did a long time ago. He has certainly put in his dues. He is very hard working, very kind, very selfless, and very negatively affected by his mistakes. A lot of us screw up and get to walk away from it. He did not. (nor does he deserve to) If he wants to put an ad in the chronicle, let him. THIS IS HIS JOB!!! and you know what? he doesn't have people walking up to him at the ingate after they see one of his kids go and asking "can my kid take some lessons". He doesn't get to have a banner full of ribbons in the front row of tents at all these major shows. The chronicle is and always will be a way to spread news. It is a form of media. If paul wants to announce that he's giving to the animals of the sept. 11th attacks, and wants to announce where/when he'll be giving lessons and how to contact him, let him. Who knows. I might be giving him a call.

charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)

"People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying 'Ha Ha!'. BUMP MY POSTS!!!

Dry Clean Only
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:41 PM
While I agree with jstr that anyone can put in any kind of ad they like and I could care less, I have to say that I really doubt that PV is hurting for business!

He has years and years of medal winners to his credit. I doubt he needs to advertise at all! And I know that lessons from him still command a good price. I'm sure he still has more people who want to lesson with him than he has time, at least this is my perception.

jSTR
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:43 PM
I didn't mean "hurting" for business-- just that everyone (even gm, seen those hunterdon ads?) needs to get the word out, esp. w/ florida coming up.

charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)

"People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying 'Ha Ha!'. BUMP MY POSTS!!!

HSM
Oct. 31, 2001, 02:45 PM
from The Equestrian Times:

The Equestrian Times (http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm)

"(New York, NY - June 1997)This is official notice of the following action taken by the Hearing Committee of the American Horse Shows Association following a meeting held on March 12, 1996, in the association's New York City offices:

MR. PAUL VALLIERE, of North Smithfield, RI violated Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 702(a), (d), and (f) of this association, in that he was convicted of having participated in a plan or conspiracy to commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse and the conduct underlying his conviction is deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the Association. In considering an appropriate penalty for the violation by MR. VALLIERE, the committee members weighed in his favor that he had cooperated with the government; however, the panel also took into consideration that he hired a killer for the horse Roseau Platiere, owned by him, which was electrocuted as part of a scheme to defraud an insurance company, and that the evidence presented at the hearing established that death by electrocution causes pain to the horse. For his violation of the rules as charged, the committee determined pursuant to the provisions of Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 703.1 (b), (c) and (f), that effective immediately and until further notice, MR. VALLIERE is hereby expelled from membership in the AHSA and denied all the privileges of membership including the ability to hold or exercise office in the association, attend or participate in association meetings, hold license(s) as an AHSA or FEI official, compete in international competitions or receive AHSA automatic insurance coverages or participate in AHSA group insurance programs and is found not in good standing and he and all horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his are found not in good standing and are suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions and he is excluded from all competition grounds during Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant, or spectator. The panel members also directed that the Hearing Committee retains jurisdiction over this matter, and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. " (boldface added by me)

rockstarr
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:01 PM
How can you be a horseperson in the true sense of the term (in my opinion, love and respect for the animals) and consider what was done by Mr. Valliere and others a "mistake?" It was not a mistake, it was deliberate. Check out your local library and read the Sports Illustrated archives. We're not talking about allegations here, we're talking about convictions.

I was a teenager when that happened. And I can say that it was crushing. I was naive, of course, but to learn that dozens of my heroes were the farthest thing from that was, and remains, sickening.

I agree with you, Midge. And I offer that diluting this disgusting event in equine history to "We all make mistakes," is revisionist history at its best.

* * *

You don't need a horse to "canter!"

Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:04 PM
I am always surprised by people who think he made a mistake. He did not make a mistake, he performed a deliberate act.

A mistake would be, perhaps, if he inadvertently did something to cause a horse to die and, in a panic, attempted to cover his role in the matter. A mistake, but understandable in the emotional moments following such a tragic event.

He deliberately took the time to decide the horse was never going to come to the party, (and I am surprised such an experienced 'horseman' would have never had a horse that didn't work out) he needed to get out of it financially, contacted a person to do the deed, paid the person, knew when, where and how it was going to be killed, allowed it to be killed, then defrauded the rest of the horse world by filing a fraudulent insurance claim. That is one long term mistake, filled with ample opportunity to think, 'Ya know? I am probably being stupid, here.'

Dry Clean Only
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. " (boldface added by me) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... Not to be a complete B***C, but donating money could be considered "community service to benefit the welfare of horses" . His ten year review is coming up? This would certainly support his side.

I do not know the man at all, have no idea of his personality or motives, and it is certainly possible that he is doing this out of the kindness of his heart! However it certainly is good timing on his part.

Midge
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:12 PM
HSM, you have a basis for my fears right there in print.

InWhyCee
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:25 PM
donating money could be considered "community service to benefit the welfare of horses" . His ten year review is coming up? This would certainly support his side.
___________________________

New York, NY (10/31/2001) Persons who know of ANY horses who lived within two miles of Ground Zero (except for the Police horses who were safely evacuated) are encouraged to contact the ASPCA immediately.

While the ASPCA has rescued numerous pets from the Battery Park and TriBeCa area, they have not yet been able to locate any horses roaming Manhattan below Houston Street.

Reports of unsually-flavored stew being served at downtown hotspot Les Deux Gamins are unfounded, according to restaraunt staffers."

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

Dry Clean Only
Oct. 31, 2001, 03:43 PM
LOL InWhyCee you know what I meant! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Horses/Animals - same difference!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is for the welfare of a non -human /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jane
Oct. 31, 2001, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jSTR:
and you know what? he doesn't have people walking up to him at the ingate after they see one of his kids go and asking "can my kid take some lessons". He doesn't get to have a banner full of ribbons in the front row of tents at all these major shows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and he had all that at one time. I don't think anyone's here to argue his ability and talent as a trainer and salesman.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The chronicle is and always will be a way to spread news. It is a form of media. If paul wants to announce that he's giving to the animals of the sept. 11th attacks, and wants to announce where/when he'll be giving lessons and how to contact him, let him. Who knows. I might be giving him a call.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I certainly am not faulting the COTH for running the ad; it's how the magazine makes money, and P.V. is certaily entitled to run any ads, anywhere he chooses. But I think as a reader of the magazine, I am also entitled to an opinion of what I think of the ad....after all, isn't that what advertising is about? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BTW, I'd like to clarify my previous post...when I said I'd question the motive, I meant the motive behind placing the ad announcing the donation, NOT the motive behind the donation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

jSTR
Oct. 31, 2001, 04:26 PM
in that case, you're right. There is definately some egotistical "look at what a wonderful good person I am" in there-- but you won't find a trainer in the world that isn't egotisitcal /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I though you were questioning his right to place the ad given his reputation...i'm slow

charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)

"People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying 'Ha Ha!'. BUMP MY POSTS!!!

Jake's Dad
Oct. 31, 2001, 06:08 PM
I DIDN'T KNOW ANY HORSES died at the world trade center on sept 11....so what is the conversation about..give 50 percent to what wouldn't it be better to give to the victims....nyfd nypd etc etc ....

BarbB
Oct. 31, 2001, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yeehaw:

But I DO think its tacky and utterly tasteless to use a tragedy to promote your business. But then again, we knew he was tacky and tasteless long ago. Ah well.. to each their own. If he burns in hell its nobodys fault but his own.


Absolutely, I concur totally - says it all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BarbB


charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

www.herbal-nutrition.net/members/Barbara (http://www.herbal-nutrition.net/members/Barbara)

InWhyCee
Oct. 31, 2001, 06:45 PM
Dry Clean Only... I know what you meant. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I wonder if he sent his probation officer a copy? (BTW, anyone know what happened to those poor Calvary horses stabled under the Pentagon?)

jSTR... I guess I'm just bitter and jaded. I find it nearly impossible to forgive convicted first-degree murderers, especially when the deceased is dumb, defenseless animal. If it had been YOUR horse that had been electrocuted (by accident, of course; think of Jean Slaughter Doty's book "The Crumb") would you still consider PV's actions to have been "a mistake"?

PS: I hear Mike Tyson has cleaned up his act, but that doesn't mean I would let him date my little sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

jSTR
Oct. 31, 2001, 07:22 PM
the truth is, no, if it was my horse, I probably wouldn't. I come at this from a funny perspective b/c I'm only 16. I was REALLY young when the fraud thing happened, so I assesed him as a clinician w/out knowing who he was, then went home, and my mom was like "interesting that you would like such a horrible person so much"

charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)

"People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying 'Ha Ha!'. BUMP MY POSTS!!!

RumoursFollow
Nov. 1, 2001, 01:48 AM
If it was some other trainer not involved in that stuff that had placed that ad about how wonderful they are you bet your sweet bippy ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) that I'd be on here saying they were tacky. No matter who you are that is just plain tacky.

I know lots of people (trainers, etc) read this board and dont post. Anyone who reads this and sees that not nice things are said about them, hello, wake up call. Now you know what the general public thinks of you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tacky, tacky, tacky. He may be a talented trainer, but I'd rather put $10,000 in a pit and watch it burn than hand it over to him for training me. People have the right to their own opinions and to make their own choices and many people choose to associate with these people regardless of their shall we say.. problems. But I know many alcoholics who went through AA sucessfully and years later went back to drinking. Whos to say there wont be a repeat performance? And what if they dont get caught this time. If anything, this experience made them all a ton smarter.

I think I need medication... I get bent out of shape way too easily about things that will never have any direct effect on me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

------------------------------
Yeehaw- Formerly RF
COTH BB Resident Cowgirl
"She's gone country.. look at them boots, shes gone country.. back to her roots, shes gone country, a new kind of suit.. SHES GONE COUNTRY!! HERE SHE COMES!!! :P

levremont
Nov. 1, 2001, 06:02 AM
I think one of the problems with our society today is our "ability" to separate a person from his/her actions. How many times have you heard he is really a good person or nice person he just did a bad thing, well we know that the only way to define a person is by his or her actions, bad actions, bad person ? At least until I can get into peoples minds that is how I judge them! Same goes with the idea that if the horrible deed was not directed at you then the person is "OK" in your book...until of course it eventually bites you too. If some parents want to send their kids to him because he is good at what he does and that winning is so important that who cares if he arranged for a killer to kill a horse for the insurance money. Go ahead and don't be supprised if eventually your kid ends up with the same RESPECT for the animal that enables him to win, or in this case the one that doesn't win enough. OK getting of my soapbox.. and feeling much older than my 24 yrs.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 1, 2001, 06:30 AM
A bandage bow is a mistake. Using the wrong bit is a mistake. Even one too many bute MIGHT be a mistake. Plugging a horse into a tent lightbulb socket and alligator clipping it to the nose and anus is NOT a mistake..It is a premeditated depraved act of cruelty. I was there that year. It wasn't pretty. (Sugarbush VT 19??)
PS To be clear, he didn't "do it" he contracted someone to do it.
Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

gray17htb
Nov. 1, 2001, 06:45 AM
....EXACTLY. People, wake up. This man killed horses to put cash in his pocket, it was NOT a mistake!

ponyesq
Nov. 1, 2001, 07:12 AM
The reason that this type of ad would be published, i.e. announcing that half of the proceeds from lessons would go to charity, is to increase the proceeds and therefore increase the contribution to charity. There are people who might decide to take lessons from a particular person, or perhaps to pay higher than usual fees per lesson, so that their fees will also go to a good cause. Why else would consumer goods producers advertise on TV that a portion of the proceeds from the sale of particular brands of yogurt, or running shoes or anything will be donated to charity/

Jumphigh83
Nov. 1, 2001, 10:15 AM
PS Is he going to publish a financial statement? How do we KNOW that this is what is going to happen in the REAL world??? I promise 100% of all my barn money to help the Sacred Bleeding Heart of the Self Serving....what I say and what I do are TWO different things..we already have reason (precident) NOT to believe the man. I need more than a bleeding heart AD to convince me. I was really taken aback by the whole thing. To me the arrogance is offensive.
So are the lessons tax deductable? Is he now a tax exempt CHARITY??
Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

RumoursFollow
Nov. 1, 2001, 10:22 AM
the reason he posted that ad was not to increase his proceeds- it was because he knows his review is coming up. Now we all know how charitable he is.

-gag-

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

------------------------------
Yeehaw- Formerly RF
COTH BB Resident Cowgirl
"She's gone country.. look at them boots, shes gone country.. back to her roots, shes gone country, a new kind of suit.. SHES GONE COUNTRY!! HERE SHE COMES!!! :P

lmlacross
Nov. 1, 2001, 10:30 AM
InWhySee-

I think it was you who created the visual of horses and tumbleweed dotting the Battery Park landscape...that was a humorous visual- thanks for that! (-:

Also, I want to know more about these horses allegly stabled under the pentagon. Is this true? I had no idea there was a stable under the Pentagon. Of course, that's so Secy. of Defense Rumsfeld can practice his cavalry maneuvers during his lunch hour. Seriously, though, having never visited the Pentagon, can someone tell me more about this?

On PV, I agree that advertising your generosity is quite tacky...not to mention just a little heavy handed for my taste!

TSWJB
Nov. 1, 2001, 10:59 AM
when I say forgiveness I do not mean a person should get away
with their crimes. Forgive someone & allow them to repent. I am so
against murder that I believe in the death penalty, but if someone is about
to die & wants a preacher to comfort them, then I am all for it. The person
should still receive the death sentence, but should be allowed to repent.
giving money to animals is a good thing. To burn the money would be
cutting your nose off to spite your face. I don't think I am comfortable
with Paul Valliere coaching students in an ASPCA maclay class, but he
has a right to try to put his life back together again. He is serving his crime.
whether he is coaching behind the scenes or not, he is not allowed on a
showgrounds. That has to be the worst punishment a trainer can receive.
I do believe he is being punished & I do not believe anyone should knock
him for donating money to animals.

RumoursFollow
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:08 AM
for donating money to animals. The point is.. does he have to exploit that in the Chronicle? I think not. That was specifically for his personal gain and you know it.

------------------------------
Yeehaw- Formerly RF
COTH BB Resident Cowgirl
"She's gone country.. look at them boots, shes gone country.. back to her roots, shes gone country, a new kind of suit.. SHES GONE COUNTRY!! HERE SHE COMES!!! :P

InWhyCee
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:09 AM
lmlacross... thankfully, all the horses stabled under the Pentagon (in top-secret bombproof stalls, natch) were evacuated and are now residing comfortably with Dick Cheney somewhere in Saskatchewan. I understand Dick is quite the equestrian.

Back to the topic... if PV really wants to help animals, maybe he should buy some soon-to-be-
unemployed carriage horses, or volunteer to muck stalls at the nearest equine rest home.

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

Goodmudder
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:13 AM
Do you all not have anything better to do? I am neither defending nor attacking this man - it's over, it's done with, it's been dealt with. Give it a rest.

PS: If Leona and Godolphin etc. did not publicize their contributions, how did you guys know about them, huh? Let's apply the same standard.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lmlacross:

Also, I want to know more about these horses allegly stabled under the pentagon. Is this true? I had no idea there was a stable under the Pentagon.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't found one bit of evidence to support such a claim ... if the original person who suggested this can further elaborate it would be appreciated.

Pentagon details (http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pentagon/)

Kryswyn
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:53 AM
"Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

On this thread you see before you the beginnings of forgetfulness... the youngsters who were in diapers or leadline when the killings took place. Junior riders now who only know how "nice" PV is. Adults who knew/know PV and feel for him the way people who don't/never knew him cannot. We cannot permit this to happen. Sorry.

Rather than an ad that will bring in business under the guise of charity, I'd begin to have a return of some respect for the man if I learned he was speaking at high schools as a motivational speaker against greed and winning is everything. That he would publically confess ... repeatedly ... that what he did was not a mistake, but a deliberate act to sacrifice a trusting animal to make money. That his 'mistake' if you will, was the belief that money is more important than respect, more important than trust, more important than being a role model for your son.

Who knows, after giving that talk to 50 high schools, he might believe it.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Kryswyn
Nov. 1, 2001, 11:58 AM
Watch your TV listings for an episode of Law & Order, guest starring Frank Converse as a horse trainer and lover of older, wealthy, gullible women. It opens w/ a Big Eq. horse dying suspicously while being stabled overnight in the city.

They've compressed the various characters to one (Converse) but in one hour, you'll get the gist of the Helen Brach/Insurance Killing tragedy.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[This message was edited by Kryswyn on Nov. 01, 2001 at 09:41 PM.]

RumoursFollow
Nov. 1, 2001, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
Do you all not have anything better to do? I am neither defending nor attacking this man - it's over, it's done with, it's been dealt with. Give it a rest. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually- right now I have nothing better to do. And beating the dead horse is a hobby of mine. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Besides- its an important issue that should be discussed as long as people are willing to discuss it.

There are other people out there doing the same thing they did but they arent getting caught. Maybe the discussion will provide an eye opener for someone who otherwise wouldnt notice it happening around them. Have you ever thought about that?

and Kryswyn, excellent post.

VTrider
Nov. 1, 2001, 12:19 PM
The email addy in your profile is incorrect. I have been trying adnauseum to email you...please email me.

InWhyCee
Nov. 1, 2001, 12:23 PM
... of course there are NO STABLES UNDER THE PENTAGON, just as there are no civilian horses stabled in midtown Manhattan south of 42nd Street! It's called satire, m'love.

As for how I know about the Goldolphin/ Helmsley donations... the former was mentioned in an ARTICLE published in a pre-Cup issue of the Daily Racing Form. I do not recall seeing it announced in either of the New York papers before the Cup, and I read all three in the preceeding week.

The Leona Hemsley donation was written up in the New York Post AFTER someone accused her of not giving away enough free hotel rooms to the cause. To my knowledge, she has NOT yet run an ad promising that 50 percent of her profits from her hotels would be donated to charity provided YOU, the consumer, pay full price.

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

Glimmerglass
Nov. 1, 2001, 12:46 PM
>> . of course there are NO STABLES UNDER THE PENTAGON, just as there are no civilian horses stabled in midtown Manhattan south of 42nd Street! It's called satire, m'love. <<

thanks, InWhyCee, for the reality check .. me thinks I've been drafting too many financial contracts to detect satire at the moment ..

dublin
Nov. 1, 2001, 12:46 PM
And for a detailed written recap, check out Hot Blood by Ken Englade. Fascinating, if horrifying, reading.
Hot Blood listing on amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312957262/qid=1004643120/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/107-9694151-1588569)

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
Still proud to be a UCLA Bruins football fan!

RumoursFollow
Nov. 1, 2001, 01:46 PM
Good Book Good Book!!!!!!!!


And if I'm not mistaken it also lists all the people directly or indirectly involved!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good book!

------------------------------
Yeehaw- Formerly RF
COTH BB Resident Cowgirl
"She's gone country.. look at them boots, shes gone country.. back to her roots, shes gone country, a new kind of suit.. SHES GONE COUNTRY!! HERE SHE COMES!!! :P

Midge
Nov. 1, 2001, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
Do you all not have anything better to do? I am neither defending nor attacking this man - it's over, it's done with, it's been dealt with. Give it a rest.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, it is not over and done with, since he will certainly attempt reinstatement once the ten years are up and all those 'Thank you Paul Valliere' ads and the 'I'm giving a boatload of money to save animals' ads are going to be trotted forth as evidence of a changed man. I don't want it ignored, revised or remembered in any other way than a dispicable act by a person I think should be thanking his lucky stars he is still able to make a living in the horse business and not touting his charitable contributions in an equine publication.

Fortunately for me, all the better things I have to do do not prevent me for doing lesser things. God save me from a world where every minute is taken up with 'better' things.

spaz
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:03 PM
Kryswyn - is there really an episode on this? LOL don't make fun of me, I would just be really interested in watching it...

http://jrsclique.proboards.com/index.cgi
Junior Clique!

*What if the Hokey-Pokey IS what it's all about?*

HSM
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:27 PM
In response to Goodmudder's post on another (locked) thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since it has come to my attention recently that a large number of us get great satisfaction from criticizing others, even if we have no personal knowledge of that target.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personal knowledge is not necessary when an issue is a matter of public record.

buryinghill2
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:30 PM
Midge you say it well, leave me with nothing to add.
A few years ago a parent of one of Pauls junior riders said to me, "Paul is a good person that just did a bad thing". I was literally speechless! I wish I hadn't been so stunned, I would have loved to hear how he made that separation!

Erin
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:31 PM
Yes, there is a Law and Order episode... it first aired the night before a sentencing hearing (I think) I was covering in Chicago for someone-or-other caught in the whole insurance fraud investigation. The lead prosecutor, Steve Miller, was joking about "his" strategy on the show. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't really remember the plot of the show, but it was a good episode. I wasn't all that fond of the book, but it does do a good job telling the story of what happened.

Trixie
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:55 PM
Ugh, ew, gross, tacky.

Now that that's said, the one thing about putting an ad in the chronicle, which I'm sure this is how it will be presented later on, is that the ad publicizes this and attracts extra customers, ones who feel as though they're doing something useful with their money. And they might otherwise not be doing it. Although, there is also personal gain.

I wouldn't ride with him.

Portia
Nov. 1, 2001, 03:07 PM
The Law & Order episode -- what was the poor horse's name? Mr. something? So the detectives get a call that Mr. ______ has been murdered at the horse show, go to investigate, and find that Mr. ______ is a horse.

Neither the poor girl who owns and dearly loves the horse nor her trainer know that her super-rich father arranged to have poor Mr. ________ killed. Dad wanted him killed because the horse wasn't winning, the daughter loved him too much to sell just because of that, and Dad wanted to end the embarassement of losing and collect the insurance. The detectives confront the father with the evidence that he had the horse killed, but the father hadn't filed the insurance claim yet, so they couldn't charge him with fraud -- and killing your own horse in and of itself isn't a crime.

That was the introductory subplot that led to the main plot about the murder of a rich woman by one of the people in the horse killing scheme because the playboy had sold her a string of overpriced horses and defrauded her and she was going to expose him (the lightly disguised Helen Brach case).

At least in the L&O story (unlike the real life cases), all of the people who were really involved with the horse -- the daughter, trainer, groom -- all loved the horse and cared for him. The father's punishment was that his daughter would hate him forever because of what he did.

Merry
Nov. 1, 2001, 04:49 PM
Kryswyn, loved your post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, Portia, saw the L&O episode, and it rang so familiar that immediately I sat bolt upright and went, "I know what story they're paralleling!"

"Friends don't let friends eat fish tacos."

Kryswyn
Nov. 1, 2001, 07:49 PM
Portia got it mostly right, except I'm pretty sure Converse was the trainer of the dead horse, as well. The horse had to die off the farm which was why the overnight stabling in the city was so important. It was the groom who called the cops and certainly the rider loved her horse. Daddy was a sleaze and represented all the owners in real life who arranged their horses' demise.

The police get the father to wear a wire to get the actual horse killer on tape. He fingers Converse in turn for murdering the heiress. What I'm waffling on is which participant, in the real story, wore the wire that tripped up the others. Who remembers? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

havaklu
Nov. 1, 2001, 08:12 PM
I believe it was "who was Ross Hugi DVM" who wore the wire (I sure he was one of many). But I don't know who he was speeking with...

As far as L&O. Yeah I've seen that episode loads of times and it is a combo Helen Brach/Horse Killing plot. The Horsekiller they call "Sandman" would have been alluding to Tommy Burns aka the Sandman. And I think Tommy Burns must have worn a wire as well since I believe he was the "witness for the prosocution".

findeight
Nov. 1, 2001, 08:24 PM
was the horse who was murdered in the Law and Order episode. A&E has a City Confidential episode about Chicago and the "horsey set".
This is the impression our sport casts on the general public, bad horses, drop a blow torch under the 4 horse trailer and burn them alive for the insurance money, as these people did. They also torched barns and killed people. Earned the nickname Chicago mafia.
I've had a couple that did not work out, one mare I hated but I sold or gave them to good homes, I did not hire somebody to kill them then defraud insurance agencies to collect. That is the big difference. I ate the loss. The animal lived.
Besides the names mentioned others were convicted who have returned to the business. It is up to us to act like consumers and check out anybody we deal with.
With the reality of animal rights wackos trying to eliminate all use of horses other then running wild let me ask you this;
Can we afford an Olympic Up Close and Personal moment with anybody connected to horrifically killing horses (like breaking their legs with crowbars or burning them) to collect insurance?
This will eliminate our sport. These people are too short sighted to realize their actions condemn us all in the eyes of the public.
We absolutely cannot return them to former status.
They bring us all down.

From Allergy Valley USA

CBS
Nov. 1, 2001, 09:14 PM
I am totally at a loss, I read that advertisement of his... WHAT ANIMALS DIED on 9/11????? I was thinking that the victims had animals, i.e.. dogs, or cats, or pets that were left at home, where the victims did not return, and were now homeless! From my understanding there were people that died from these terrorist attacks... NOT animals?????? Please clue me in!!!!! Call me stupid, but I have not heard any newscasts that reported animals had perished????? HELLO!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

findeight
Nov. 1, 2001, 09:41 PM
There were some helper dogs who died along with their handicapped owners up on one of the floors as a group of disabled waited for help that did not get there in time. At least one bomb sniffing dog in the basement.
Money will not help them now. Some pets no doubt did die in adjacent apartments or ran off as they were evacuated. Most either reclaimed or adopted.
Puzzled why the money was not designated for horses who suffer daily abuse and neglect regardless of the headlines. After all it was a horse who was killed to collect insurance money. Not a dog who died among 4,000 humans

From Allergy Valley USA

poltroon
Nov. 2, 2001, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dublin:
And for a detailed written recap, check out _Hot Blood_ by Ken Englade. Fascinating, if horrifying, reading. Hot Blood (Amazon) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312957262/qid=1004643120/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/107-9694151-1588569)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am still speechless by the pure wickedness of the schemes... (this is not the part PV was involved in):

"Oh please, nice lady, not that I would ask, but I've got this great horse deal that would make me tons of $$$ if only I hadn't mislaid that cash"

"Oh, of course, honey, I could give you a loan."

"Oh, that's not necessary, but THANK YOU... and to show evidence of my good heart I will put the horses in your name so your investment is secured."

So, the con man buys a bunch of worthless horses with a small amount of the money, pockets the rest and is on his way. But here's the best part: SHE OWNS THE HORSES. Now she has to pay board on them (to the con man's buddy) so she can figure out how to sell them...

On PV: that advertisement cost a noticable amount of money. Someone making those donations purely because it is the right thing to do would also have donated the $$$ spent on the ad. JMHO.

[Edited to fix the URL link]

[This message was edited by Portia on Nov. 02, 2001 at 11:37 AM.]

Portia
Nov. 2, 2001, 09:36 AM
The horse killings were discussed somewhat at the USOC hearing, mostly in connection with the AHSA's extensive and expensive efforts to make sure the rules were enforced and the people involved were banned from all AHSA competitions --not just the hearing process, but also defending the lawsuits against the AHSA filed by George Lindemann, Jr. and others.

It was an issue because the USET was claiming it did everthing the NGB was supposed to do, but it has never had anything to do with rulemaking, enforcement, or discipline.

It was also an issue because it highlighted the need to have a very structured discipline process that is as independent as possible of the conflicts of interest that plague the USET (IMHO). The USET took no role whatsoever in the horse killing cases, nor did it ever even make a pronouncement supporting the AHSA's efforts. It came out that George Lindeman, Sr. was a long-time USET trustee, and they held executive committee and trustees meetings in Lindemann's offices during the period when his son was awaiting trial and the AHSA was trying to kick his son out of the sport.

This is not to suggest that the very vast majority of people involved in the USET did not and do not personally condemn and abhor any cruelty to animals -- I am confident they did and they do. The issue is how easy it is to run into conflicts of interest when the people who are making the decisions are the same wealthy owners whose horses and whose connections (trainers, riders, drivers, sons & daughters) are competing for slots on the team, and how those conflicts may actually undermine the protection of the horses, or at least create the appearance that such protections might be compromised.

[This message was edited by Portia on Nov. 02, 2001 at 12:43 PM.]

Duffy
Nov. 2, 2001, 09:48 AM
Extremely well said, Portia, as usual.

Charis
Nov. 2, 2001, 10:06 AM
THIS IS THE FINAL STRAW FOR ME!!!!

I suppose after all these years I should NOT be surprized at the WILLINGNESS OF THE IGNORANTto expose themselves.

First the mean spirited posts of late....now incessant hateful vents by those who are NOT aware of all the circumstances. WHAT DOES JUDGEMENTAL SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS ACCOMPLISH??

Those who know me and my character are well aware of my life long love of all creatures...four legged and two legged. My daughter was trained by Paul for a year prior...we did NOT have money NOR did we have influence...I was her groom!!!
He was always kind and thoughtful. I never witnessed any abuse of the horses as I HAVE witnessed from TRAINERS CURRENTLY IN GOOD STANDING. I have found myself in the past being the only one to protest to the steward at a show regarding abuse, only to have a slap on the wrist being administered.

God forbid that any of you ever have need forgiveness yourselves...

butNOW TO TURN THIS TO A RANT AGAINST USET MAKES MY STOMACH TURN.

I'm now signing off of this
BB so flame away....my only prayer is that your hearts and minds are enlightened sometime in the future.

Janet
Nov. 2, 2001, 10:28 AM
My mother always said:
"There's none so blind as those that won't see."

PMJ
Nov. 2, 2001, 10:31 AM
I think a line was crossed between the abuse one can see at shows which should be reported and the type where a horse's intential planned death becomes a means to a profitable payday.

Miniwelsh
Nov. 2, 2001, 10:36 AM
I don't know anyone involved in this at all and no, do not know all the facts.

Just wanted to say that a person who orders to have an animal killed in the way the horses involved with this case were killed simply to line their own pockets are even worse than the a-holes who purposely run down animals in the street. I realize that they may have pieces and parts of the character that is kind, gracious, a good trainer, remourseful, etc. - sorry, makes no difference to me. To knowingly plan something like this is an absolute atrocity, regardless of the reasoning they laid behind it or their remourse after the fact.

Manslaughter is a mistake, murder is not (and yes, arranging for a hit man to kill a human somone is considered murder and people have been sentenced to death for doing so)

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Portia
Nov. 2, 2001, 10:41 AM
I'm sorry you took my statement as a "rant against the USET," Charis.

It was intended as a statement of facts discussed at the USOC hearing, and a statement of my opinion regarding why the issue is relevant and why we must all be alert to conflicts of interest and other situtations that can either actually compromise or give the appearance of compromising the welfare of our horses.

The admitted and proven fact is, Paul Valliere arranged to have a horse killed to collect insurance money. That is something I cannot overlook, regardless of how "nice" or "kind" a person he may otherwise appear to be.

SGray
Nov. 2, 2001, 11:38 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charis:
_THIS IS THE FINAL STRAW FOR ME!!!!_

First the mean spirited posts of late....now incessant hateful vents by those who are NOT aware of all the circumstances. "


=== I'm sorry, I just cannot conceive of a circumstance under which I would hire someone to electrocute my horse and then file an insurance claim........

Jumphigh83
Nov. 2, 2001, 02:04 PM
"Nice, Kind" people DO NOT electrocute horses. Sorry but I can forgive but I choose NOT to FORGET. I forgive him for what he did but I WOULD NEVER give him the oppurtunity to do it again (ie being with and around horses esp MINE!). He lacks the moral character to make good judgement. I guess there are those that would let a child molester babysit, but not me. (He did his/her time and I forgive them....can anyone say recidivism? powerfully motivated by greed??

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

InWhyCee
Nov. 2, 2001, 03:33 PM
Charis, I firmly believe that genuinely "kind and thoughtful" people do NOT arrange to have innocent animals ELECTROCUTED for PROFIT. Perhaps your definition of "kind and thoughtful" is just different from mine (and, for that matter, the dictionary's)? Honestly, is there any other "kind and thoughtful" person you know of who has been convicted of the PREMEDITATED murder of a defenseless animal?

I'm not saying that people can't change, but to act like the crime never happened is leaving the barn-door WIDE OPEN for it to happen again.

PS: On a lighter note, I'd like to announce that I will also be making a tremendous donation to the ASPCA, just as soon as my fellow BBers start sending me money. Thank you.

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

Kryswyn
Nov. 2, 2001, 07:26 PM
I hearby offer to teach anyone who sends me $20 how to write COTH BB posts for all occasions! Sad, commentary, witty, contest entries, you name it - I'll cover it in my 3 day Clinic "Bodatious BB Blurbs". I'll donate $10 from each student to the COTH horse rescue fund!

Kryswyn rolls eyes and hopes everyone realizes this is a JOKE but clearly indicates how tacky these kinds of self serving ads are.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Weatherford
Nov. 3, 2001, 12:41 AM
KRYSWYN - in answer to your question as to who wore the wire (a wire?) a couple of pages back, it was Paul who wore a wire for over a year. And it was that wire that sealed Barney and others' fates.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about Paul - leanign toward the negative. However, whatever little respect I have for him comes from the fact that he did wear the wire at very high risk to himself and his farm.

Barns have been burnt to the ground for far less.

It doesn't redeem someone who would arrange for killing a horse for insurance, however. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bethe Mounce
Nov. 3, 2001, 02:55 PM
I saw the ad today, just got my Chronicle and had to actually look for it.

Why did he run the ad in the 1st place? To document something?

On a personal note, facts are facts and he arranged to have a horse killed for insurance money. I don't think I want to see him hanging around at a show. I might get a bit crazy.

Many moons ago he tried to sell our family a Welsh stallion when my sister and I were children......does that tell you all something else about him? Thankfully my Mom knew what she was looking at.

HSM
Nov. 3, 2001, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bethe Mounce-Blasienz:

Why did he run the ad in the 1st place? To document something? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"(New York, NY - June 1997)This is official notice of the following action taken by the Hearing Committee of the American Horse Shows Association following a meeting held on March 12, 1996, in the association's New York City offices..."

below is just an excerpt from the entire notice:

"MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses."

Any connection do you think? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jumphigh83
Nov. 3, 2001, 06:35 PM
NO..It is purely coincidence that he is laying a long and winding PAPER TRAIL to "prove" reformation. Maybe the parole officers can provide us lists of reformed pedophiles for our babysitting needs....I think the whole thing is pretty sickening. I feel sorry for those who are jumping through hoops in defense of such actions. How can you discount moral character and leave your kids or horses in the influence of someone who is sorely lacking in that department.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Dementia 13
Nov. 4, 2001, 06:36 AM
'm now signing off of this BB so flame away....my only prayer is that your hearts and minds are enlightened sometime in the future

____________________________

And no doubt your's will be in the very near future, Charis.

Let's not forget that dear Mr. V did not exactly have a sterling record before the horse killing business.

Mom
Nov. 4, 2001, 07:19 AM
Regardless of you feel, people, can't you give it up?

Kryswyn
Nov. 4, 2001, 08:17 AM
Apparently not. Obviously, this thread shows that feelings still run very, very high about the horse killings. When it happened, I for one, had no computer and no way and no one to share my sorrow, disgust and anger with. I'm glad that this topic came up and allowed me to share my thoughts.

And as I pointed out earlier, those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Revisionist history has already begun on this topic. For example for anyone who believes PV was white as snow prior, Bethe points out a bad decision on PV's part YEARS before he decided to make a really, REALLY BAD decision. It is too easy to believe that this was a 'one off' thing years after the fact. We need to remind people that that is not the case.

The circumstances that Charis? pointed out as 'no one knows all the circumstances' seem to imply that *we* might have made the same decision if *we'd* known them. I DON'T THINK SO.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Mom
Nov. 4, 2001, 01:22 PM
I have no more time for such arrogance as I have seen on this topic by individuals most of whom only know second hand facts and who enjoy anonymously bashing others. No one is for horse killing, for pete's sake, get it? Just not for this anonymous innuendo from unknown people who have in all likelihood never met the people we're discussing.

Life must look good from all of your pedestals.

Bumpkin
Nov. 4, 2001, 01:29 PM
I don't think the majority of the posters are hiding behind anything.
They list where they live, where they work and meet with other posters all the time.

Take as example your own profile here.
There is an email address and that you are female. But nothing else.
We do have a choice to list what we want, but don't get so snarky to Kryswyn etc... when they quite freely offer up who the are.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
JMHO

buryinghill2
Nov. 4, 2001, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mom:
I have no more time for such arrogance as I have seen on this topic by individuals most of whom only know second hand facts and who enjoy anonymously bashing others. No one is for horse killing, for pete's sake, get it? Just not for this anonymous innuendo from unknown people who have in all likelihood never met the people we're discussing.

Life must look good from all of your pedestals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what about all the people who did know, quite well, the people we are discussing? You might be surprise how many of us there are posting on these boards.

SoEasy
Nov. 4, 2001, 02:01 PM
Since you choose to remain fairly anonymous yourself, most will never know what your motives might be.

If you choose to come here to post, kindly remember to be civil to fellow posters.

Thank you.

Kryswyn
Nov. 4, 2001, 02:04 PM
I meet (occasionally) an owner whose very talented horse is ridden by McLain Ward. I like this owner very much. The owner, quite rightly, is very enthusiastic about the rides McLain gives the horse, AND I PERSONALLY ENJOY WATCHING MCLAIN RIDE. SO I get very conflicted when the subject of his dad comes up. Even this owner gets tongue-tied and apologetic when the subject of BW comes up. We both settle for agreeing that what dad did was dispicable but, Gee! didn't McLain ride well last time! and we move on from there in a hurry...

I ask myself, could I give a horse to McLain? Fortunately, for me the question is moot, TG as I will never own a horse he'd be interested in riding!

I know McLain has been on these boards, and I appreciate that threads like these aggravate old wounds for him. I applaude the successes he has had and wish him the best in the future. What he must live with is surely what the bible means by "the sins of the fathers' are visited on the sons".

And thank you, Bumpkin /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

InWhyCee
Nov. 4, 2001, 04:50 PM
Mom, I still don't get it. A horse was electrocuted by a man who was then paid off by PV, as per prior agreement. PV collected insurance money on that horse. PV was busted. PV is paying for his crime (not a mistake--a crime.)

NOW, WHAT MORE DO WE REALLY NEED TO KNOW?!? I would be very interested to know what "first-hand facts" you possess that would show PV in a better light.

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

bucksnort
Nov. 4, 2001, 05:03 PM
Oh my GOD!! You guys that are saying that he just made a mistake and we should just let him be? He hired someone to KILL horses!! Some of them probably suffered! I would be totally embarrased with myself if I EVER stood up for someone in his position that did that. When you are a trainer you are supposed to take CARE of horses and not MURDER them. Those horses let hm get on their backs and they worked for him. What did they get in return??

Shame on you all for defending him and I not care if that is harsh and I do not care who dislikes me for saying so.

***~~~Bucksnort~~~***
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching."

Dry Clean Only
Nov. 4, 2001, 09:48 PM
MOM

My name is Alexis Bline. My email is in my profile. I have never met any of the lovely bunch who were killing horses for insurance money. What they did was despicable. No, I don't not know them but their actions are public knowledge. PV put an ad in the Chronicle publicizing his generosity at the time his ten year review is coming up. This is also a fact. I don't think they should let him or anyone of them back in the AHSA. This is my opinion. He still does great business, so the only thing hurt is his reputation. Backing off of his suspension would not send a good message to the membership IMHO. He had his chance for many years and he and others screwed up.

I'm sorry that you feel that people who aren't 'players' on the A circut have no business showing concern for the welfare of horses. I am also sorry this is a common feeling.

Oh well /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jumphigh83
Nov. 5, 2001, 06:14 AM
I think we stepped on raw nerve with Mom. She knows what the truth is and when you pull her head out of the sand and show her the ugly truth...well, me thinks thou doth protest too much...Too bad. So many worthy and talented trainers out there to invest so much in so little.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Dementia 13
Nov. 5, 2001, 07:29 AM
Life must look good from all of your pedestals.
_______________________________________

Quite good, actually, dear.

You are right, jumphigh - I believe we did hit a bit of a nerve with her.

How tightly we cling to the chains that bind us!

kd welden
Nov. 5, 2001, 07:53 AM
I saw the ad. And at first I was ready to say, yeah he's a schmuck, shouldn't have done it, etc. But...

I think he did this add to show that he will support the animals affected by the Sept. 11th disaster. He didn't say just horses but animals, dogs and cats. Animals that were loved and now don't have homes. - Its a tiny add and I think he did it to propel more trainers into also sharing their "wealth". He's not asking for business, but he might get some. He's not asking for anything.

I only hope that other trainers will follow in his footsteps.

Paul didn't mean to get into the trouble he did. He's not a bad man, he just had a case of bad judgement. I think its about time we forgive him.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 5, 2001, 08:04 AM
Let us consider what got him to the point of having the horse electrocuted. GREED and PRIDE. The horse didn't quite come up to expectations and rather than coming clean and saying, "gee, I over estimated that one, maybe we could donate him and take the write off"...but NO..he reasoned that he couldn't humble himself to say "I was wrong" nevermind face the investor and say "I screwed up, the horse let us down" so he CASHED IN on the LIFE of the horse. He wasn't the only one. There are others out there .."big" names who did despicable deeds in the name of PRIDE and GREED. I have no trouble with forgiveness. I just have trouble FORGETTING and then putting the same people in the SAME postions that seduced them into cruelty in the first place. This homeless animal thing is such a thinly veiled attempt at attrition for the benefit of the public and the AHSA that it is almost funny, if it weren't so tragic.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Quinn
Nov. 5, 2001, 08:47 AM
"Didn't mean to get into trouble?" - Who does?

"Bad judgement?" - Having an innocent being killed is being referred to as BAD JUDGEMENT????

In my opinion, hurt yourself - stupid you.

Hurt someone/something else - you're an a$$hole.

Should never again be permitted to be around animals of ANY description. IMHO.

[This message was edited by Quinn on Nov. 05, 2001 at 10:57 AM.]

Kalifornia
Nov. 5, 2001, 09:04 AM
and all others having such a problem with people's opinions on this thread. Don't read it if you don't like it!!!!!!!!

A horse was killed! Some people tend to get extremely upset about things like that and would like to have their say about the person(s) who were involved. You don't need to know the people directly to have your own opinion. I didn't know O.J. but I still have an opinion of the entire topic. I also don't know Susan Smith who killed her own children, but guess what. . .
I still have an opinion about it!!!

AND guess what else?>?> I also have an opinion about PV that I would rather not discuss on this BB because I don't think I could remain civil about it and choose not to offend anyone because I'd tell it like it is in VERY BLUNT WORDS!!!

that's all I have to say and I must go and have a smoke because I'm just all worked up. I just think of "what if it had been my horse? The love of my life?" I can't even imagine how scared that poor horse must have been. He's in a good place now though. Away from harm and wastes of human skin.

#%*Kalifornia$%&

Showpony
Nov. 5, 2001, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kd welden:
Paul didn't mean to get into the trouble he did.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


He did in fact mean to cause the "trouble" he did to the horse. (by his own admission)

buryinghill1
Nov. 5, 2001, 11:05 AM
reminds me that we shouldn't be beating a dead horse. y'know?
on the other hand... it's therapeutic to spew out all this venom! So keep spewing!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Coreene
Nov. 5, 2001, 11:09 AM
Are you sure it was the sand that the head was pulled out of???

marianne
Nov. 5, 2001, 11:41 AM
I do not know this man but from articles that I have read about him even prior to his troubles, I would not care for him. It is fortunate that this incident and others have swung a spotlight onto all of us and our horse activities by the public. It means that we have to clean up our acts and police ourselves or else someone will do it for us. As for PV still training, I have problems with him training and teaching. For a role model in convicted felons I would look to Chuck Colson. As for separating the sin from the sinner, we will all have to be accountable for our actions otherwise, we will be like Flip Wilson'character saying "The Devil made me do it" Where has responsibility and accoutability gone?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bethe Mounce
Nov. 5, 2001, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:

And as I pointed out earlier, those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Revisionist history has already begun on this topic. For example for anyone who believes PV was white as snow prior, Bethe points out a bad decision on PV's part YEARS before he decided to make a really, REALLY BAD decision. It is too easy to believe that this was a 'one off' thing years after the fact. We need to remind people that that is not the case.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must agree with the above statement/comment/opinion. Even though I was a mere child when the incident happened, it obviously made an impression on me so that I would not forget. Anyone who tries to sell a stallion to an unsuspecting family looking for a pony for their children has no ethics and is only looking to make a fast buck.

What happened in the insurance fraud investigation must not be forgotten, because what is forgotten will happen again. And, the investigation hit a bit personally for me as I happen to know the son of the missing heiress, Helen Brach. Therefore, I cannot forget nor will I forget.

Anyone touched personally in this atrocity of horse fraud will not forget, or even those indirectly affected cannot forget, therefore the subject will rise again and again like a phoenix from the ashes.

As for those folks who were indicted and spent time in prison......yes, they may have done their time and served their punishment.....and some may actually have repented and are making a genuine effort to make some good come out of some bad. But, in the case of Paul Valliere, and due to the already bad interaction my family had with him years ago, whatever he does or says does not ring true with me. Now, that being said, I am no one in the grand scheme of the horse business so any comments or feelings I may have certainly won't get in the way of him pursuing his life as he sees fit.

Bethe Mounce
Nov. 5, 2001, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mom:
I have no more time for such arrogance as I have seen on this topic by individuals most of whom only know second hand facts and who enjoy anonymously bashing others. No one is for horse killing, for pete's sake, get it? Just not for this anonymous innuendo from unknown people who have in all likelihood never met the people we're discussing.

Life must look good from all of your pedestals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we would all be surprised as to who really some of the folks are that post on this bulletin board and who they know. As you will note, my signature is my full name as well as where I live and I also give free access to my email address. Some folks prefer not to do that, and of course, that is their choice. Some would be surprised to know who I know! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Weatherford
Nov. 5, 2001, 01:50 PM
The only problem I have is with those other trainers who did it and got away with it. (Some actually were turned in, but the statute od limitations had expired /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

I do not know who was on that original list (although, I am SURE the author of HOT BLOOD has all the names!) I do know of one incident witnessed by a friend at the barn of a very BNT - essentially the GROOM asked my friend's best friend (they were standing together) to "say goodbye to your horse as you won't be seeing him tomorrow" (the horse had been for sale, but hadn't gotten sold) My friend didn't think much about it til the next day when she heard the horse had died of colic that night. Uh huh! Her friend was totally beside herself; this BNT was clearly involved.

Sad and sick.

Midge
Nov. 5, 2001, 02:13 PM
Weatherford,

Sadly, Tommy Burns was the link to most of the horse killers who were tried and convicted. Those who killed the horses themselves were smart enough to keep it to themselves, for the most part.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

Portia
Nov. 5, 2001, 03:52 PM
Weatherford, I think I'm missing something or misunderstanding something in your post. Though that's not unusual -- I have plenty of trouble trying to understand the whys and hows in the thinking and the acts of the people behind these events.

Why would the trainer have the horse killed if not for the insurance money, and how could the trainer collect on the insurance if he/she didn't own the horse? Was your friend just leasing? I'm not at all saying your friend was in on it -- just trying to understand the scenario.

nutmeg
Nov. 5, 2001, 06:21 PM
Regarding Weatherford's very sad tale: Had the groom not spilled the beans, the unsuspecting owner probably would have used the insurance payout to go horse shopping again with the same trainer once the grieving period was over. Quite innocently! Another ten percent for me, thinks the trainer.

Weatherford
Nov. 5, 2001, 09:50 PM
netmeg has it right - only given the trainer, it was probably more than 10%. Way more - think 6 figures... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Heidi
Nov. 5, 2001, 10:24 PM
Having folowed this thread through its many pages, I suppose I'm not terribly surprised by P.V.'s actions (he succumbed to the most base of human instincts, greed and arrogance) and much more surprised by those who'd defend his 'crime' with the admonition that the man has served his time and that it's time to let bygones be bygones.

Yes, there is corruption and corrupt people in other sports but it never ceases to baffle me that we in the horse community seem to forgive the unforgiveable so very readily - child molesters, horse killers, come on in and have a drink with us in the exhibitor's tent! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Despite his crime, the man continues to prosper as a trainer. Despite his crime, there are many who will rally to his defence and point the accusatory finger, not at the guilty party, but at those who'd seek an answer to this most inexplicable of crimes.

I'd hazard a guess that had P.V. been an annonymous trainer of quarter horses on the western pleasure circuit, there'd be far fewer people indignantly rallying to his defence.

Michelle Mc
Nov. 6, 2001, 06:41 AM
Funny you should mention the <convicted> molesters. As a parent I have a bigger problem with that species.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 6, 2001, 07:10 AM
Actually PV DID dabble in QHs for awhile after the suspension...Maybe they found him more unsavory than the HJ community obviously does.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

PMJ
Nov. 6, 2001, 08:02 AM
Since it seems as if PV is attempting a paper trail to document his compliance with the circumstances regarding AHSA (I know, USAE) re-instatement, does anyone have any idea what exactly his chances for re-instatement might be, and if denied, would he have grounds for a lawsuit? Personally, if he wanted to do this fine, but it looks too much like taking advantage of a terrible situation to make me comfortable. And to the person who wrote, "Paul didn't mean to get into the trouble he did." I beg to differ. He planned it. I think whomever said he didn't mean to get caught got it right.

Portia
Nov. 6, 2001, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
Regarding Weatherford's very sad tale: Had the groom not spilled the beans, the unsuspecting owner probably would have used the insurance payout to go horse shopping again with the same trainer once the grieving period was over. Quite innocently! Another ten percent for me, thinks the trainer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ugh. I don't know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing to be this naive about how some perverted people think. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SGray
Nov. 6, 2001, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:


Ugh. I don't know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing to be this naive about how some perverted people think. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


great thing about the internet is that we now have the information - and when these issues are raised then we can educate others

with education comes choice - you can choose to support heinous individuals (taking lessons, attending clinics, etc) or you can choose to boycott same

BronkBusterTX
Nov. 6, 2001, 10:50 AM
...since you all so vehemently have posted AGAINST Paul Valliere advertising in the COTH. What about the people who advertise FOR HIM?

For instance Missy Clark has advertised "Special thanks to Paul Valliere". Does that mean she puts money in his pocket?

I think it is sad that some of you are negative about Pauls' attempt to follow the terms of his suspension. He is providing proof of his benevolence of animal welfare. At least he is trying.

I don't think any of us are going to EVER FORGET the harm that Paul, Barney, Dana, Tommy Burns, George Lindemann Jr. and others have done to our sport. However I think we should begin to forgive.

Coreene
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:05 AM
More not just in the sand.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:17 AM
I think it is the sand in my cats' box......must be... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

SGray
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:
What about the people who advertise FOR HIM?

For instance Missy Clark has advertised "Special thanks to Paul Valliere". Does that mean she puts money in his pocket?

.... At least he is trying.

I don't think any of us are going to EVER FORGET the harm that Paul, Barney, Dana, Tommy Burns, George Lindemann Jr. and others have done to our sport. However I think we should begin to forgive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A) yes, I believe that that type of ad means that the advertiser has been supporting PV despite the fact that he is an acknowledged horse-murderer

B) the fact that PV has continued to teach, train and sell horses for high $s indicates to me that the suspension has not had the impact on his career that I would have preferred to have seen

C) trying to get reinstated with the Fed. is my read

D) I believe that some people have forgotten the evils of the past or were never aware of them when they were first brought to light

E) I am grateful for the knowledge and insight that this bb has afforded me

F) we all must decide for ourselves how we can respond to such actions - and personally, I WILL NOT - EVER - attend any seminar, clinic, etc that may put money in the wallets of anyone that I have knowledge of committing such deeds

you may say that I am naive and I will accept that - but I know many equine professionals that are also HORSEMEN - so I know that all do not share the values shown by the types that we speak of in this thread - I will support the HORSEMEN and I will boycott the bad

Sparky22
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:30 AM
I was going to stay out of this whole thing...but I just wanted to share a few thoughts of mine:

Every time I hear PV's name, I think of what he and others have done to horses. Every time. I will never forget what he did, and it makes me very sad every time I think about it.

I am also one for forgiveness. Do I forgive him for his heinous act? Yes. Will I ever forget it? No. Do I think this thread is a wonderful thing? Yes. And here's why: A lot of younger riders have no idea that this even happened. I feel that it is not so much necessary for them to know the names of such indiviuals, but to know the story of what happened. It has been said many times that when we forget history, we are doomed to repeat it. I absolutely agree, which is why this thread is so important. By getting the word out to younger equestrians, we are making them aware of the awful things that have (and unfortunately still) happen/happened. The more pages I see for this particular topic, the happier I am with the people here because by keeping it going for so long, we are forcing people to remember. One of the kids at the barn once asked me who PV was (his name had come up in a conversation), and I told her what happened. She said that she had never heard that story. I told her that that is one of the problems that arises as the years go by....the story doesn't always get passed on, and it's not that a lot of these kids have forgotten about it (some of them weren't even born yet), it's that they were never told. It is so important to share this with younger equestrians to prevent similar occurances from happening in the future (or at least make a small impact on the future).


"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversey." Martin Luther King said that..and although we will always measure PV by what he has done, he has done his time, and fulfilled the sentence that he was given. At this point (after everything he has done, which he can never change), that may be the best thing he can do. Since his crime, he has done was was ordered of him. Will we all think of what happened when we hear his name? Most likely, yes. Will we all think about how he has done his time and deserves no further punishment? No..because a lot of people feel he deserves more. BUT by remembering, and making other people remember, we ARE punishing him by not letting this be swept under the rug.

I have always been one for forgiveness (I know what happened was awful, but where has anyone ever gotten with not forgiving?), and I can say I forgive him. I do not in any way condone what he did, in fact it makes me sick. But I will NEVER forget what happened, and I will put forth an effort to keep anyone from forgetting it. Remember...to forgive does not mean to forget.


~~Kate~~

"I love to get home after a long day and go to sleep late. I love to wake up before the sun. I love to spend the day in the sun, with it's rays warming my skin. I love the mist of the cold hose. I love not being able to feel my fingers and toes in the winter. I love to stand on the hill, letting a friend graze in a warm wind. I love the smell of that wonderful place...I live to ride, and I ride to live."

MBS
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:55 AM
I can't say I will ever forgive him. I think that he and the others should NEVER be allowed to earn a living from this sport again.

There was a policeman in my town that had a terrible accident when he was drunk and driving. When he was convicted he also lost his right to be a police man. There was quite a bit of controversy around this many saying that if he was just a regular citizen it would not affect his livelyhood. But he was not a regular citizen.
I feel the same way about this situation.
PV was a Professional Trainer and I think if you commit a crime like he did you should loose your right to earn your living from these beautiful creatures

Wonder Why
Nov. 6, 2001, 01:50 PM
I wondered about whether or not to post on this topic. My state horseshow association is going to hire Paul V. to judge our Medal Finals for 2002. Because of the timing of our show we have a hard time finding judges that can do it (due to regualtions about judging Zone and state finals during the same time period). One of the members of our committee rode with PV as a junior and still speaks with him. He is very excited to do our show (not AHSA rated). I remember all of the events and it sickens me to think about those beautiful animals suffering a horrific death. I treasure my animals. So, while I believe that he will do a great job as a judge(he is a knowledgeable equitation trainer) I am not sure about deserving the chance we are giving him. To forgive is one of the more noble things a person can do, I certainly won't forget what was done. Many people do terrible things, and MAYBE he is truely repentent. If so, that deep, dark hole in his soul should serve as a daily reminder to him of the pain he caused in the name of money. He wasn't the only one, he just got caught. I don't think that it makes him any better or worse than the others, he will always be known for that deed if we don't forget. Sorry to ramble, I have been thinking a lot about this and am still tryng to figure out how
I will deal with next fall. I have had the opportunity to go and ride with him but chose not to. I don't think I want to get that close.

Lucassb
Nov. 6, 2001, 02:06 PM
Curious if any of those who qualify for your state Medal finals will refuse to show under PV.

I was tickled to qualify for one of our local association Medal finals this year but I would not show under someone who had been convicted of killing horses for profit.

Sorry, it would take a better person than me to forgive someone like that. And I would NOT in any way contribute to his being compensated for any further work with horses, much less the approbation accorded to the person invited to judge a Finals of any sort.

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

SGray
Nov. 6, 2001, 03:01 PM
hey Wonder Why - is this a state in the northeast?

Wonder Why
Nov. 6, 2001, 03:25 PM
LucassB, I don't know what the end result of his being the judge will be. I will probably not show for a couple of reasons (I am focusing on jumpers as they are more objective than the eqs. I have good eq. but a small, 15 h. Arab as my main show horse!!! so, that can be a bit of an issue in the eqs at the finals - off topic I know!!) and the other reason may be that I am not entirely comfortable with this choice.

SGray, yes this is a state in the Northeast, NH. I don't even know if I should be stating who the judge will be at this point but people will find out and I think that it is their right to know. He probably will be very fair and definately knows what to be looking for in an equitation round. I will just have to see how it all plays out.

PMJ
Nov. 6, 2001, 03:56 PM
What a hard place to be in. Personally, I could not in good conscience show at a show, recognized or not, that supported such a person by making them an employee and placing him in the position of authority.

Midge
Nov. 6, 2001, 04:08 PM
Good Heavens!!!! Someone who is barred from judging recognized shows is being hired to judge a state medal finals?!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What are they thinking??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

Coreene
Nov. 6, 2001, 04:11 PM
More and more sand.

Midge
Nov. 6, 2001, 04:28 PM
Correene, I think it is someplace infinitely darker and...um...ickier than the sandbox. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

Dry Clean Only
Nov. 6, 2001, 04:38 PM
Midge - since we are not affiliated with USAE in any way (other than a vauge statement in the rulebook about refering to the AHSA rulebook) they can hire whoever they want /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Wow - I am from NH and know Wonder Why and all the people she is refering to (with the exceptiong of PV). I really don't know what to think of the whole thing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I hope he at least does a decent job (and I hope he isn't judging the horsemanship final!. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Ok that was a sick joke but I'm just a bit shocked)

Brookes
Nov. 6, 2001, 06:23 PM
Wonder, if you choose not to show due to Paul's presence, then I think it would be your duty to write a letter to show management explaining your decision. If you truly feel strongly then you have every right to stand up and voice your concern/opinion.

I have to agree with everyone that feels that this cannot be forgotton by anyone in the horse industry. Anyone hiring him is condoning his act of cruelty.

Speak up!

For those who feel it was a mistake or gee he paid for his crime, I say . . . perhaps the reason you feel that way is you believe that what he did was not truly that awful? I would have to question a person's morals at that point hmmm?

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

PMJ
Nov. 6, 2001, 08:33 PM
Good point,

If this were a show I would generally attend and decided not to due to the actions and behavior of the judge, you bet I would write a letter informing them why I would not be showing. They need the feedback, and is really bothers me that although they are not USAE affiliated, they would still support financially the livelyhood of someone who had been found guilty and been suspended.

BronkBusterTX
Nov. 6, 2001, 09:37 PM
Someone said that Paul has unofficialy been hired to judge what I am guessing is the NH Medal Finals.

That their trainer used to ride with him and still keeps in touch with him.

BUT you are considering NOT riding in the Finals.

You support her, she supports him. Yet he is the one that you have the gripe with. I sense a little incontinuity there.

And to the other person who posted something like, those of us who are so quick to forgive him either are unaware of what he did or it must not be so abnormal to us. That was a cheap shot. (if I could figure out how to post verbatim quotes it would be helpful)

I know I will never forget what Paul, Barney, Tommy, George and Dana did to those horses. Or what they have done to the image of our sport. I think it was heinous. I think they ALL acted immorally, maliciously and irresponsibly. I do not think it was totally unforgiveable.

When a criminal is handed a sentence, he is expected to serve it. When it is finished, the crime is supposed to have been paid for. I don't believe that this washes the crime away. Nor do I feel that the sentence is always appropriate.

Do I think that those of you who oppose Paul are wrong? Of course not. And I would never dream of trying to change your mind.

Jane
Nov. 6, 2001, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:
Someone said that Paul has unofficialy been hired to judge what I am guessing is the NH Medal Finals.

That their trainer used to ride with him and still keeps in touch with him.

BUT you are considering NOT riding in the Finals.

You support her, she supports him. Yet he is the one that you have the gripe with. I sense a little incontinuity there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, she never said it was her trainer who used to ride with PV...here's the direct quote from her post on how this came about: "One of the members of our committee rode with PV as a junior and still speaks with him.".

HAC
Nov. 7, 2001, 06:01 AM
From what I understand a convicted child molestor has gotten back into training after he served his time in jail, Care to send any kids to Florida with him?

Wonder Why
Nov. 7, 2001, 06:37 AM
This is a rather hot topic, as it should be. I want a judge for our show that is knowledgeable and will do the best job possible as people work their butts off to qualify, besides, it costs a lot too. I believe that PV will provide that service. Do I agree with what was done - NO WAY. I can tell you, after having been involved in this show for the past 9 years, it is extremely difficult to get a high level judge at this time of year. I think that PV was thought for a couple of reasons: A personal connection due to their junior years of riding with him, knowing that he would be available, and as it was stated, "it's like hiring an ex-con, giving someone a second chance". I have mixed feelings about the entire thing, I can see why this is being done but then again I think that it may be rather questionable (morality and taste wise). If people in the organization have issues with this decision, they need to speak with their trainers (many are on the committee) or write to the comittee. Also, I need to make clear that my decision to probably not ride in the Finals is due to two factors: I am focusing on jumpers and maybe also due to my mixed feelings about the judging situation.

BronkBusterTX
Nov. 7, 2001, 07:40 AM
If I thought that they would get a good education in Horsemanship. But also I would be there, there would be grooms and other parents, the said trainer has a known background, forewarned is forearmed.

But it is not quite the same thing is it? Not that one is worse than the other, just different.

This is a quote from HAC-

From what I understand a convicted child molestor has gotten back into training after he served his time in jail, Care to send any kids to Florida with him?

PORTIA- You are an attorney. What kind of sentence is typical for a person convicted on several counts of child molestation? What is the usual amount of time served? And is that person not supposed to be able to try to return to something of a normal life?

Michelle Mc
Nov. 7, 2001, 07:55 AM
...What kind of sentence is typical...?
Nothing is "typical" in criminal law.
...What is the usual amount of time served...?
Ditto
... is that person [defendant]...supposed...to return to... normal life?
Yes, within the laws of each jurisdiction.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2001, 08:25 AM
I am not sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that once their time is served, someone convicted of say, molesting or killing a child, should be allowed to manage a daycare center? Or coach children's soccer, perhaps? I mean, once they have met the conditions of their sentence...

I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again. Should they be allowed to earn a living? Yes, DOING SOMETHING ELSE.

The fact that PV is even being considered for the privilege of judging a Medal finals so that a committee can have a "big name" is something I find appalling. I think it also sends a very inappropriate message to any juniors who may compete in the event.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that NO ONE ELSE could be found with sufficient knowledge to judge this event... (although I do believe that it may be difficult to obtain one of the handful of very well known judges such as GM.)

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

Heidi
Nov. 7, 2001, 08:27 AM
Furthermore, the rate of recidivism among child molestors is incredibly high -- and there are some psych. pros who'll contend that it's an incurable 'disease' and the only 'safety' afforded the public is castration.

SGray
Nov. 7, 2001, 08:43 AM
"I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again. Should they be allowed to earn a living? Yes, DOING SOMETHING ELSE. "

here here - I second that

Portia
Nov. 7, 2001, 09:22 AM
Bronk, Michelle Mc is the criminal law lawyer, so listen to her answer -- I'm just a corporate civil defense litigator, which for better or worse is a whole 'nother world from crim law.

I think I see what you are saying, Bronk, and largely agree with it. What I take from your posts is that in your opinion blanket condemnation is not the way to go. Everyone, every parent, should take the responsibility to learn as much as possible about the people with whom they and their children associate, and should make their own decisions about what they feel is both safe and morally appropriate for them as individuals -- and should then take the proper precautions consistent with those decisions. (Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Michelle Mc
Nov. 7, 2001, 10:20 AM
Wow! what tidbits do I get for lunch?!

Isn't this chat drifting a bit?
The subject of this thread was convicted, and punished, for a crime other than today's discussion. He should not be lumped in with the cretins with whom I deal daily.

finis.

Michelle Mc
Nov. 7, 2001, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heidi-ugh:
Furthermore, the rate of recidivism among child molestors is incredibly high -- and there are some psych. pros who'll contend that it's an incurable 'disease' and the only 'safety' afforded the public is castration.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


or death

Portia
Nov. 7, 2001, 11:11 AM
I agree, Michelle, child molesters are pretty much off the topic of this thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Michelle Mc
Nov. 7, 2001, 12:19 PM
Judge I had last week asked the ADA (at sidebar of course) "Are you an attorney or do you just play one on TV?"

I love my job sometimes.

I am taking this afternoon off - here's the horserelated part - to go RIDE! bye.

HAC
Nov. 7, 2001, 12:36 PM
The point I was trying to make was that most people would feel that although a child molestor paid his dues to society they should not be in a position that involves children. People who abuse animals should not be in a position working with animals and you would be hard pressed to find someone that would knowingly hand money to a stockbroker that had been convicted of running off with a client's lifesavings. Although these people may have "paid their debt to society" why put youself at risk? These people did not make a mistake, they murdered horses and collected insurance money for it.

mbp
Nov. 7, 2001, 12:46 PM
Hmmmmm. Ads to promote what a good person you are - this is what every good kind person and tobacco company I can think of would do. BTW, has anyone ever heard of a good con man that was not referred to a few times as "kind and goodhearted?"

Rights versus Privileges. Does a convicted person have a "right" to "get on" with their life after serving their sentence. Sure. That would be a right. Does a person who killed horses for money have the "right" to get on with their life by earning money through their membership in and acceptance by an organization such as USQEq. Well, membership in USA Eq and other organizations is a Privilege. Do we impart privileges for bad behaviour?

It is already being acknowledged that a person who planned and agreed to have a horse patiently stand still and be clipped to electrodes and fried to death is making a living training horses and riders. Gee, do we need to extend them any additional privileges?? A pat on the back and a ribbon? They are making a such a good living that they can donate 50% of their horse/lesson related income and still pay bills. Think about that. Think how few truly good, kind, talented horse people can say that. This one, who trained his horse to cooperate while being killed, can. Things are already vastly unfair, on that score alone. Some "lapses" of judgement are so serious that we cannot rely on the person again, in that context at least.

I believe a supporter of the forgive and forget camp nonetheless included the admonition "forewarned is forearmed" when they were presented with a fact pattern to analyze. Well, how would someone be forewarned if everyone agrees to sweep the incident under the rug now that time has passed?

A much abbreviated parable - A man dressed in black arrives in a small town and builds a scaffold. The town crowds around to see what he is doing. When he is done, he takes a person from the crowd, drags them to the scaffold, and hangs them. There are angry mutterings, but no one does anything. Everyday, another person is dragged up and hanged. Finally, the last villager is dragged to the scaffold. In stunned disbelief he asks the man in black, 'why have you done this' Before he is hanged he hears the reply "because no one stopped me."

Sometimes, when we know a person is capable of very bad things, we need to be willing to stop them. Sometimes that means not giving them the opportunity to start. The posts - what has he done to you?- cannot be serious. The answer would be, nothing, just like the man in black did nothing to the last villager, until he pulled him onto the scaffold. So why complain until then?

If you can calmly listen to the facts of what he did - having someone electrocute the horse for profit, hear those facts and not cry, you probably are asking "what did he do to you" in good faith, and that is sad. He made me cry. He still does.

buryinghill2
Nov. 7, 2001, 12:51 PM
Nicely said...

cbv
Nov. 7, 2001, 12:59 PM
"I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again."

Quite alot of livestock is killed for profit every year....not with alligator clips I suppose...but not always in a pleasant, compassionate way.

I am neither a PETA supporter or making excuses for the crimes discussed on this thread.... this thought just struck me when I read the above quote.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 7, 2001, 01:03 PM
Oh come on cbv..you surely jest..the cattle INDUSTRY is far flung from killing horses for profit when YOUR judgement is WRONG and you need to bail out without "losing face" with the customer you suckered into buying the next coming of Gem Twist. Those animals are bred and raised for slaughter (regardless of your feelings thereof) but in this country horses are NOT. Some even consider them companion animals. Maybe PV could go into the beef industry. He seems to show aptitude for tat job.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

buryinghill1
Nov. 7, 2001, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abby:
Nicely said...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cbv
Nov. 7, 2001, 01:11 PM
You caught me while trying to add a bit to my post realizing it would be misinterpreted.

Like I said not making any excuses for fraud and
cruelty..... the comment just made me pause and think. Also, again, not excusing anyone nor saying it is right, but weren't most of the convictions being discussed for insurance fraud, not animal cruelty...which goes back to the Law and Order episode where the father couldn't be convicted because he had not made a claim....but would suffer his daughters hatred and contempt the rest of his life?

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2001, 01:12 PM
You beat me to it.

And MPB, I think you make a great point about rights vs. privileges.

There ARE so many riding/teaching professionals out there who will not lie/cheat/whatever to "build" their business - they have more integrity than income, most times. I agree that few of them could give up 50% of their incomes and survive. They work with students from a multitude of backgrounds and financial situations, not to mention all sorts of horses. Many of them teach HORSEMANSHIP along with their "riding lessons" - but they aren't getting wealthy doing it.

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

C-Urchn
Nov. 7, 2001, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michelle Mc:

I am taking this afternoon off - here's the horserelated part - to go RIDE! bye.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must be a nice job!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

poltroon
Nov. 7, 2001, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbv:
"I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again."

Quite alot of livestock is killed for profit every year....not with alligator clips I suppose...but not always in a pleasant, compassionate way.

I am neither a PETA supporter or making excuses for the crimes discussed on this thread.... this thought just struck me when I read the above quote.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might be noted that even most veterinarians "kill defenseless animals for profit".

The problem isn't really the killing - it's the motivation and purpose. In this case, the motivation was to defraud, lie, and cheat.

nutmeg
Nov. 7, 2001, 04:26 PM
mbp: A wonderful, wonderful post

cbv: Don't worry... some of out here understand your tangent. Sometimes I think the distance that agribusiness puts between us and the products we consume (ie the cattle) makes us callous and unappreciative of the value of life in general-- which gives rise to a Tommy Burns.

brilyntrip
Nov. 7, 2001, 05:05 PM
BUt I was bored and I HAD to read it ALL 9 pages .First of all what Yellow Dog said early on ME TOO !!!
Second of all I think those of you who knw me don't need to guess my feelings on this subject..
I have actually met one of the guys who was deeply involved in the Brach case.
My final comment?? total astonishment that anyone could forget any of this horrible CRAP!!!!!

Dry Clean Only
Nov. 7, 2001, 05:12 PM
I find it even more frightening that plenty of the people who do remember simply don't let it bother them /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

cbv
Nov. 7, 2001, 05:24 PM
I was just struck by the irony, on the one hand, that most of the folks here could more easily forgive fraud or larceny than what we as horse lovers perceive as unconscionable cruely....but the law doesn't recognize the latter, only the former.

At the same time, I was also struck by the irony of the double standards we apply to other livestock (and which I am as guilty of as the next person).

And which is really a subject for another thread all together, and I realized my mistake in posting my mental musings, and was going to delete my response, but it had already been 'caught'. So I tried to explain myself, and worried the rest of the afternoon and wished that I had followed Michelle Mc's lead and just gone riding.

lauriep
Nov. 7, 2001, 06:03 PM
and it is not my personal feeling, just a possible rationale for some of the "it's ok" postings.

Perhaps folks that take lessons from him are able to make a distinction between taking a riding lesson from him, where he really has no reason to ever even touch their horse, and leaving a horse IN HIS CARE. Maybe in these people's minds, they are not really aiding and abetting him at what he was convicted of.

This may be especially true for people who weren't in the business when the **** hit the fan. It may be much easier for them to separate themselves from PV's history since they have only heard of it third, fourth or tenth hand.

Because of this, I think being hard on these people probably isn't fair. They just don't make the same connections that the rest of us do.

Laurie

SoEasy
Nov. 7, 2001, 06:06 PM
Actually Michelle Mc is a criminal defense attorney ... and sometimes her job is AWFUL.

Do a search on her name, and find some of the early posts, especially the last time we all got on this general subject.

An early afternoon ride is something she richly deserves every now and then.

Leesa
Nov. 7, 2001, 06:07 PM
Deal with the consequences of your actions whatever the particular situation. Mr. Valliere's result of his actions should be the permanent loss of the privilege of attending horse shows for the reasons mentioned above.

I believe people deserve second chances when they use bad judgement, but his actions went way beyond bad judgement.

Finzean
Nov. 7, 2001, 10:37 PM
Farmer Bob raises 100 head of Angus which end up in Five Star Restaurants; this is how he makes his living - by raising cattle for profit. He feeds and cares for his cattle knowing that ultimately they will end up in someone's freezer. Farmer Bob DOES NOT take out an insurance policy, contract for the termination of the herd, and collect ill gotten gain from his CRIMINAL activity.

Apples & oranges....

I find these horse killers for hire and all of the agents/persons involved to be a waste of the air I breath - I would say that to their face if I did know them. But I try not to consort with those types of folks. I don't care if they ARE terribly talented and hold the secrets of the universe in the very palm of their hand. Thank you very much but I'd rather settle for dead last than to have to maintain a working relationship with anyone who participates in this type of activity. They are no better than the a$$holes that stand by the pit and watch their dogs fight to the death for the purpose of $$ gain.

The only condolence is that there is most certainly a special place in he!! for these people. Flame away - say they're paying their debt or have paid their debt. In a "justice" system where serial rapists and convicted murderers are released on "good behavior" - often to do a "repeat performance"...well, I'm sure we can all think of at least one instance where justice was not served. Do you think the person who procured the services of Tommy Burns thought that the horse was getting what he deserved (justice)?? Just like I'd like to put some of the idiot drivers I see in the horse trailer and take them for a spin so they could have an idea of how pulling out in front of a rig affects the horses, I'd like to hook those boys up to a car battery for a few seconds....at a time.

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

C-Urchn
Nov. 8, 2001, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
Actually Michelle Mc is a criminal defense attorney ... and sometimes her job is AWFUL.
Do a search on her name, and find some of the early posts, especially the last time we all got on this general subject. An early afternoon ride is something she richly deserves every now and then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the Heads-Up! I'll bet she needs an afternoon scotch too! She's right about this thread stretching too much. I felt very uncomfortable when it headed away from the insurance fraud killings into child abuse!
Question for Michelle (I'll bet she's in court!): I see from your profile you have kids. Does this affect your job?

Jumphigh83
Nov. 8, 2001, 07:34 AM
Flames Finzean? I agree whole heartedly. No flames here.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Bumpkin
Nov. 8, 2001, 08:42 AM
Thank you for those fine words.

Michelle Mc
Nov. 8, 2001, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C-Urchn:
Does this affect your job?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course! My experiences as a parent, I believe, make me a better attorney.
My job significantly affects my life as well. My husband (crim.law as well) and I are extremely vigilant parents.
Aren't we ALL?

wesequest
Nov. 9, 2001, 08:35 PM
I too believe that we should give everyone a second chance to make things right in the horse business or in other aspects of life......However, when they move to another state or city and perform the same or similiar unprofessional acts, I wish that our governing equine body provided stricter punishments or at least provided a information base similiar to the Better Business Bureau.
Don't you agree Bronkbuster?

appyhunter
Nov. 9, 2001, 09:19 PM
after reading my way thru all 10 pages... I would be a WHOLE lot more impressed if PV did some volunteer community service hours in a shelter. Or working with horse rescue. Or rehabing some rescue horses so they could be adopted out. Just went and did it, without asking for a big pat on the back and paying for a big ad so everyone who saw it would know how wonderfully he was contributing....

We all have choices in this world. There are enough really good trainers and judges out there that I see no need to trust myself, my horses, -or if I had them, my kids- with people who think abuse and fraud are acceptable ways to live.

Just my opinion, and my choice of how to live my life.

Tosca
Nov. 10, 2001, 01:49 AM
Where has all the respectability, the honour, the dignity, gone out of being a judge? It's bad enough he's still a trainer but now he's judging a major horse show? What a joke.

My horse has ten times the class of this individual. (Even when he slobbers all over me.)

BronkBusterTX
Nov. 11, 2001, 06:39 AM
Actually Paul has several old equitation horses and jumpers retired at his farm in Rhode Island, Acres Wild/Sail Away.

I'm not saying he is a saint, but I know he cares deeply for these horses and makes sure they get WHATEVER attention they need. No one hears of stuff like this. Not many realize the GOOD he has done for the equine community.

WE ALL KNOW the harm he has caused. He will never be forgotten for that. I don't think any of us should forget. He has done some really good stuff that we just wouldn't hear about normally. Stuff that WE TAKE FOR GRANTED that a good horseman would do.

Broken Line
Nov. 11, 2001, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:
Actually Paul has several old equitation horses and jumpers retired at his farm in Rhode Island, Acres Wild/Sail Away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad that he cares for some horses. I guess we can be grateful that he can still earn a living so as to keep these horses. I just wish his living did not involve horses.

I grew up thinking so much of Mr. Valliere, both because of his judging and because of how well his students rode. It saddens and sickens me that he was part of the killing of these wonderful and defenceless creatures. Personally, I could never be a part of supporting him, in any way, today.

HSM
Nov. 11, 2001, 10:18 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Midge
Nov. 12, 2001, 07:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:

WE ALL KNOW the harm he has caused. He will never be forgotten for that. I don't think any of us should forget. He has done some really good stuff that we just wouldn't hear about normally. Stuff that WE TAKE FOR GRANTED that a good horseman would do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you think he should be lauded for things we EXPECT good horsemen to do? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Once again, I think he is lucky to still be in the business.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

SGray
Nov. 12, 2001, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:

WE ALL KNOW the harm he has caused. He will never be forgotten for that. I don't think any of us should forget. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is a major point of the thread don't you think? that we not forget? and that youngsters be made aware of the horrid acts that some commit.

BronkBusterTX
Nov. 12, 2001, 08:13 AM
I don't mean to sound like I am trying to defend Mr Valliere. My earlier post only pointed out that he has done good things in the name of horsemanship that is not put into print. Nor is it expected to be.

I certainly do not think that any this should EVER BE FORGOTTEN. Someone pointed out before that "to forget history is to repeat it".

I don't think any of us are ever going to feel sorry for him. If he ever has a horse die from something as normal as colic, we are ALWAYS going to wonder if he killed that horse. There will always be that cloud over him. That is as it should be. Maybe it will keep him honest. I hope so.

Coreene
Nov. 12, 2001, 10:57 AM
Well if you're not sticking up for him in your posts, then I guess we are all retarded for reading them and thinking just that.

Dementia 13
Nov. 12, 2001, 11:22 AM
I am not trying to be obtuse, but I am not sure how it is relevant that PV has done kind deeds for his old horse, BronkBuster.

Many of us are not saying that he is a deliberately cruel man, just a greedy one and that his crimes should not be forgotten or excused because he is "such a nice person."

In this case, my opinion is that what he did overshadows any good qualities that he might have.

Just my opinion of course - everyone is entitled to believe what they like.

dublin
Nov. 12, 2001, 11:34 AM
Have to agree with coreene and MargaretF on this one. The manner in which PV's horse died remains foremost in my mind when mentions of his good qualities are made.

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

MO
Nov. 12, 2001, 12:03 PM
I agree with Dublin and Coreene.There is way too much negativism in our world, enough innocence dying. He has contributed to this. It's a fact. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Duffy
Nov. 12, 2001, 01:31 PM
The thought of what those horses went through still has the power to make me sick to my stomach. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

lilblackhorse
Nov. 21, 2001, 11:54 AM
found this thread thru the off course link...*whew*, I have read thru all 10 pages instead of cleaning my house for Thanksgiving.
I too remember when this all happened, and though I do not know the people involved, I followed fairly closely. I concur with those that say never to forget. I have to admit that I am not a "forgiver" either. What these people did was a cold, calculated heinous act purely for greed and profit.
Like someone said earlier, and I will agree here, what baffles me most is that PV and others are still allowed to even BE anywhere near horses. The analogy of child molesters is a good one. They are watched, not allowed to be near any child. I don't get it!! There have been posters on this thread that actually have Trained with this man since this happened....Nut cases who are willing to give this man the money and power that continuing to train offers just sickens me. These people should be run off, never to return, end of story. Call me uncharitable and unchristian like, but tough. He isn't sorry in the least-like Rhett Butler said in GWTW, "YOU AREN'T SORRY YOU DID IT, YOU ARE SORRY YOU GOT CAUGHT.".....bingo.
I say screw the people who get caught, warn them off for life and then maybe people will think twice next time when they choose to electrocute an animal for profit.

*whew*....those 10 pages got my blood boiling, sorry, stepping off the rant podium /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

SGray
Nov. 21, 2001, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Yep, Paul rents a place adjacent to Wellington and his people school in his ring and walk on over to show. They have been doing that for years.

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Oct. 31, 2001 at 07:57 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it sounds as if the suspension didn't affect his bottom line too much - there is only so much that the Fed. can do - the rest is up to the consumer

personally, I would like to see the names of all the horse murderers brought up periodically so that new riders can be made aware of what they did

Dementia 13
Nov. 21, 2001, 12:24 PM
I liked what the Chronicle did a couple of years ago - they had a section with the biographies of the murdered horses.

I'll never forget Rub the Lamp. That horse won everything.

Those people who did that are utter bastards, and I will never forgive them.

Anne
Nov. 21, 2001, 12:38 PM
Margaret, I know I'll never forget Streetwise.

Weatherford
Nov. 21, 2001, 01:01 PM
What would be the chance of putting those obituaries online??

PLEASE??

hifi
Nov. 21, 2001, 07:48 PM
I'm sure it is mentioned in the tread somewhere but, what issue of the COTH had his ad in? I haven't been able to find it. Have a delay because of the west coast thing.

If you can't beat 'em, try harder. And God Bless America my home sweet home!

Jane
Nov. 21, 2001, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
What would be the chance of putting those obituaries online??

PLEASE??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second this!

Finzean
Nov. 21, 2001, 08:03 PM
Why did I come back to this thread when all it does is make me want to dig my turbo charged broomstick out of the closet and act up?!?!?!

I, too, want to vote (are we voting??) to put the equine obits online. The last pages of the book "Hot Blood" list all of the offending/offensive persons involved in the insurance scam(s). Let's post this list as well. Not looking for a witch hunt but I really don't believe whe should forget and the fact these people are allowed to remain fixtures in the horse world sickens me.

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

SoEasy
Nov. 21, 2001, 08:29 PM
look at the thread title

hifi
Nov. 21, 2001, 08:52 PM
OOPS!

If you can't beat 'em, try harder. And God Bless America my home sweet home!

SGray
Nov. 23, 2001, 07:34 AM
I've got to look for my copy of Hot Blood - then could quote (did I lend it out though?)

LCasty
Nov. 28, 2001, 11:23 PM
I appreciate your situation and respect your honesty in discussing this very delicate issue. I must say I have been reluctant to respond to any of the entries I found on this site until I read yours due to the anger and abrassive content of so many peoples entries. I believe that I am the most qualified person to comment on this subject because of the relationship I and my family have had with him. Certainly we do not condone what he did and believe me nor does he. Yes, people make mistakes in life - this was a major one. My family has known PV for nearly 30 years and he literally changed our lives. I began training at his farm when I was 11 yrs old along with my sisters and my mother. In a short period of time a career in the industry took off for me - it gave me a greater sense of confidence than I had ever known and it sparked an interest in my Father which caused him to become involved in something other than his job and to concentrate on family through this sport. It was a wonderful ride and PV taught me lessons not only in riding but in life. He is an amazing trainer and horseman - proof of that is evident by the success of my sister and I and the success of his other students. Granted, it is very sad and hurtful to know what he has done but don't think for a moment he doesn't acknowledge, regret, and pay for his mistakes each day. As far as your horse show is concerned he will do the best job as your judge. In my opinion he is one of the best equitation trainers ever. Certainly I can respect the opinions of all these people who think badly of him but for me, during these unsettling times, I am more apt to forgive.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 29, 2001, 06:35 AM
I can only wonder what "Life lessons" you have been taught.................

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

thecowboyway
Nov. 29, 2001, 07:11 AM
Jumphigh83, that was so uncalled for. I've ridden with Paul off and on for the last 15 years, I too think what he did was horrible, but it a very odd way its made him a better person. I think he truly enjoys now what he's priveledged enough to get to do for a living. He certainly doesn't hide from his past and he is willing to openly discuss his sins. Those of us who choose to associate with him do so because we believe in him, and no not blindly.

Anne
Nov. 29, 2001, 07:15 AM
Lisa said, "He is an amazing trainer and horseman...."

He may very well be an amazing trainer, but a horseman he is not. A horseman's first concern is for the horse and its well being, before all else. He lost the right to that designation.

I think that is the point that many of us are trying to make here. Whatever he has done for you personally does not make up for what he did to the horses.

Spunky
Nov. 29, 2001, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:
My horse has ten times the class of this individual. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear, hear! I think that horses have more grace and class than people, generally speaking.

Dementia 13
Nov. 29, 2001, 07:42 AM
LCasty,

Thank you for stating that so well. Even though I don't agree, and I could never, ever forgive or forget what PV has done, your post did give me pause, and I appreciate hearing another opinion that isn't full of invective, as so many of the "pro" PV posts were.

Spunky
Nov. 29, 2001, 07:48 AM
MargaretF and LCasty:

I think you both have class, too.

creseida
Nov. 29, 2001, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:

I'm not saying he is a saint... Not many realize the GOOD he has done for the equine community.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tell that to the horses that died because of his GREED. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What I do, I do for my horse, and thus I do for myself~me

Jumphigh83
Nov. 30, 2001, 06:15 AM
Uncalled for??? Oh I think YOU are mistaken. Uncalled for is PLUGGING IN A HORSE to an electric light bulb socket, AFTER clipping an electric cord to it's anus and nostril and PLUGGING IT IN!!!! Only because YOU suckered someone into paying WAY too much for a horse that failed to "raise" to your expectations, so you needed to save not only YOUR EGO but to defraud the insurance company of money which I by the way am paying for in my policies today!! THAT is uncalled for.
By the way, DENILE is NOT a river in Egypt.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

thecowboyway
Nov. 30, 2001, 07:19 AM
I believe the horse was his own.(not that makes it any better)And I was referring to your life lessons comment you made to LCasty that seemed a bit "catty".Thanks for clearing up where the Nile river is located though, I always wondered....

[This message was edited by leaper3 on Nov. 30, 2001 at 10:59 AM.]

HSM
Nov. 30, 2001, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He certainly doesn't hide from his past and he is willing to openly discuss his sins. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Good. Then why don't you go and ask him to explain why he did what he did (I think you should use JumpHigh's excellent description, just to jog his memory a bit) and ask him to provide a rational and acceptable explanation for what he did and why it is he feels he has the right to be working with horses.

While you're at it, maybe ask him why he is selling horses through an intermediary instead of doing it directly and using his own name if he is so "up front" about his situation.

PS to all: I find it hard to believe that this discussion is still continuing - it just goes to show how important it is that the subject was brought up in the first place.

Dementia 13
Nov. 30, 2001, 11:40 AM
I wish there was a way to post the bios of the horses that were killed. I wish I had kept that particular Chronicle.

Weatherford
Nov. 30, 2001, 01:32 PM
Unfortunately, the horses bio'ed weren't the only ones who "went missing".

The author of Hot Blood mentions that others were under suspicion (that is, they had hired Tommy Burns) for previous killings, but went unpunished due to the statute of limitations.

I have little forgivness for Paul Valiere. I give him credit for risking his life to wear "a wire" for the authorities for over a year during the investigation. I also look at a lot of other BNTs (including some that I have held in incredibly high regard as horsepeople and riders), and I wonder. Some of these people are the uncaught guilty. Some are only guilty (in my mind) by association.

How can you separate a horseman from his or her "friends" - especially when the latter are guilty?

I continue to struggle with this issue, and I find the thing sad and disheartening. I appreciate everyone comments and passion on the subject.

Please try to be polite within you passion, however. Thanks.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

wadino
Nov. 30, 2001, 02:04 PM
OK call me REALLY neieve, but I wasn't into horses when this all happened. Anyways I knew it had happened and knew Barney Ward had some part in it.

I think that what these men (if you can call them that) is HORRIBLE and it should not be forgotten. I do not know how someone can knowingly take lessons with someone who has did these horrible things to horses for his own benefit!

I think it is a shame when people say McLain is no good because of what his dad did. I do not think that is true at all. His dad is a shame, not son. Sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree. In my opinion (and let's hope) this has happened.

I honestly couldn't imagine doing something this disgusting to an animal that cannot fight that I have devoted my whole life to, just for money! If these horses were so amazing (which I assume they were) and you wanted money, why didn't you just sell them?

That's all.

Ryan

"Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven."

Janet
Nov. 30, 2001, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If these horses were so amazing (which I assume they were) and you wanted money, why didn't you just sell them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ryan, as I understand it, that was the problem. They TRIED to sell the horses, but, for various reasons, the price they would sell for was WAY less than the price they were insured for.

Jake's Dad
Nov. 30, 2001, 05:44 PM
you know i read the last chronicle and the add was still in ...so if you take lessons its your ...choise... me no way...

wadino
Nov. 30, 2001, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Ryan, as I understand it, that was the problem. They TRIED to sell the horses, but, for various reasons, the price they would sell for was WAY less than the price they were insured for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AAAAH I understand now. As I said, I didn't understand the whole situation.

Ryan

"Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven."

geckoUBC
Nov. 30, 2001, 08:40 PM
I didn't ride when all this was going on; the first I heard of it was a couple years ago when I was looking through some old magazines and saw a brief article about it. It might have been in Practical Horseman or Horse Illustrated. They listed and had gorgeous pictures of some of the horses involved.

Aleesha

Midge
Dec. 1, 2001, 03:08 PM
Sadly, Ryan, one of the horses had previously been very successful. When it failed to be as successful with the new pro, the original owner offered to buy it back for the same price. To bad the new pro's ego was even larger than his amazingly large wallet. He was certainly not going to let the horse go back and be a success, when it so obviously wasn't with him.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

buryinghill2
Dec. 1, 2001, 04:02 PM
Unfortunately for this particular horse, the "new pro", suffered an injury not long after the purchase, and couldn't ride for a while. Up until that time, he hadn't had any success at all with the horse, and wasn't happy about it. When he got hurt, he hired another professional to ride the horse until he recovered. The horse was then champion two weeks in a row with the hired rider. This only added to the embarrassment of the "pro"(using the term lightly) that had purchased the horse. The fact that he went well and was champion two weeks running was part of what sealed his fate. How sick is that?

Jumphigh83
Dec. 1, 2001, 08:02 PM
Such a wonderful selfless guy. Always doing the right thing, for the right reasons. I would leave my kid with him.


(NOT)

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Paloma
Dec. 1, 2001, 10:08 PM
Some of you claim that this man regrets what he did. I seriously doubt that. I fully believe he regrets getting caught . /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

To those of you who support him financially, in my opinion, you are condoning his actions and this disgusts me, and so do you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This man, and the others (George Lindemann, Barney Ward, etc.) did not make a "mistake". A mistake is an unintentional consequence of an action that was taken. It was not a mistake that these horses died; that was the intent!!! . It was deliberate and required a great deal of forethought and planning. And the motivation for this was greed , pure and simple. The well-being of the horse obviously had nothing to do with it; therefore, these people do *not* qualify as horsemen. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What really gets my knickers in a knot, is if it weren't for horses, these people would have been nobodys. It was the talent and trust of these creatures that made these people who they were. It was the association with these "big names" that made these horses worth the money. And because these "big names" claimed they were worth this money, the insurance companies believed them and assigned these high values. Afterall, they were the "experts", /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif right? And so, these noble creatures, who made these people look good and thus became "valuable" had to die, because these people were greedy.

And yet people who claim to be horsepeople continue to patronise these bastards, thus condoning their actions. You are rewarding them for what they have done. Why?

Sorry, but there are plenty of other trainers out there with infinitely better credentials. Why not patronise them instead? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Those horses deserved so much better. They trusted these people with their lives, and look what it got them.

And to whoever said that Paul has given "so much" to the equine community, yeah, right. After what he did, your comment is like saying he is noble for dropping a counterfeit $10 in the Salvation Army basket. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Puhleeze!

I hope they all burn in Hell....where's my flame-thrower?

~*~Keep your electric eye on me, babe.
Put your ray gun to my head.
Press your space-face close to mine, luv.
Freak out in a moon-age day dream, oh yeah! ~*~

Midge
Dec. 2, 2001, 03:17 PM
Something that surprises me is that students of some of these trainers who say, 'Oh it was just one mistake.' don't think back to the rather odd circumstances surround the deaths of horses they owned. I mean, horses so rarely break their legs in stalls, especially so soon after they were expected to win at the Garden and didn't, or die after the child outgrows their pony, or after the equitation horse is too lame to really win at the top any more.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

Bumpkin
Dec. 2, 2001, 10:20 PM
I wonder if the people who still ride with these trainers and profess to loving their own retired horses so much would feel the same if it had been their own horses who had suffered these horrible, not accidental or mistaken fates? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

SGray
Dec. 4, 2001, 10:45 AM
"that others were under suspicion (that is, they had hired Tommy Burns) for previous killings, but went unpunished due to the statute of limitations."

if I could find the Sandman, I'd ask him how much it would cost me for him to give me a list.....

Lucassb
Dec. 4, 2001, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And yet people who claim to be horsepeople continue to patronise these bastards, thus condoning their actions. You are rewarding them for what they have done. Why? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll tell you why people patronize these "trainers"... they think that they are the ones best able to get them to the winner's circle.
They are therefore willing to overlook or minimize what these <expletive> people have done in the past.

The fact that enough people are willing to turn a blind eye (or even *defend* these individuals)that they can continue making a living in the horse world makes me absolutely sick to my stomach.

FWIW, I agree that there are plenty of talented professionals who are also horsemen and decent human beings, but even if riding with a killer GUARANTEED me a win, there is no way I'd do it, period.

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

Weatherford
Dec. 4, 2001, 12:49 PM
Actually, SGray, some of these names are in the Englade book (Hot Blood), and I am SURE he knows the names he couldn't publish.

Of course, we do have to figure out how to find him... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SGray
Dec. 4, 2001, 01:25 PM
okay - fine - I give up

I am going to have to go out and buy a second copy of Hot Blood since I cannot locate my original

tyedyecommando
Dec. 4, 2001, 01:42 PM
There is a local trainer here who has made the "mistake" of getting into the drug scene. She was fired from her previous job as a nurse for stealing prescription drugs and her doctor husband left her because of it, she stole one of her clients prescription pads and wrote prescriptions for herself, she overdosed on crystal meth at a horse show in front of an audience (with many children including her own students watching), and has been to rehab at least two times. Her customers are still with her and tell people that "she wasn't feeling well and couldn't come to the show" the day she ODed and was in the hospital and was getting her stomache pumped. They got the drug charges dropped after she ODed and threw a huge hissy fit when she was fired from the barn where she was training until she was rehired. IMHO these people are idiots who belive their trainer made a mistake. And FYI she has gone back to her old ways but the idiots haven't noticed.

The Moral: People see what they want to see even when the truth is blatently obvious.

SGray
Dec. 5, 2001, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Yep, Paul rents a place adjacent to Wellington and his people school in his ring and walk on over to show. They have been doing that for years.

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Oct. 31, 2001 at 07:57 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


okay - so PV keep teaching, coaching, buying/selling, training, without any severe crimp in lifestyle - what happened to the rest of the miscreants? Does Lindeman stil have Cellular Farms? what about the vet - was the license pulled?

Dementia 13
Dec. 5, 2001, 10:47 AM
As far as I know the vet's license was not pulled. She is still showing and competes in Ami Owner jumpers.

How nice for her, don't you think?

I know I'd just looooove to have someone like that as my vet.

I guess she wasn't around when they taught ethics in vet school.

SGray
Dec. 5, 2001, 04:00 PM
well I hope that she does well -- for her horses' sake

JulieMontgomery
Dec. 5, 2001, 06:56 PM
Very succinct. Very well put! My thoughts exactly......

Weatherford
Dec. 6, 2001, 07:46 AM
I DID contact Ken Englade who said he did not put the other names in his book for legal reasons. He said someone at the Chicago Sun Times might still have that information.

He also said (as I contacted him in hopes he would be interested in investigating some other nefarious activities), " Why is it I am not surprised..." (to hear these things are still happening...) That would be a funny comment, if it weren't so darned true. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bumpkin
Dec. 6, 2001, 08:51 AM
Is he going to do another???

Jumphigh83
Dec. 6, 2001, 12:46 PM
AND..she got her license to practice back!! Not only a Shamateur but a vet too! God help us.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

rockstar
Dec. 6, 2001, 02:04 PM
I am in no way whatsoever defending PV.

And I think that people who had no previous connections with him and have chosen to give him business since his acts are pretty much inexcusable.

However, I would maybe take into consideration that Paul was (and presumably still is?) an incredibly charasmatic man who was often considered by his clients to be a great friend as well as a tremendously productive and successful trainer. A good friend stands by you even when you foul up. A good friend may not agree and may hate what you have done, but will at least give you the benefit of the doubt and try to understand and go on. And so, in regards to the people who were clients/friends of his before his days of crime, I can understand how they may still give him business and associate with him.

And to those who think the fact that he still has anything to do with horses means he has not been punnished enough, consider how very much PV loved to sit ringside and watch his customers and horses go. And consider how much he loved to be there for his many victories. I can hardly say for sure for I have not seen the man or really heard a thing about him since his downfall, but I would think that his life is no where close to what it used to be when he ruled the showgrounds. And I would not sell the mental repercussions of that fact short as part of his punishment. Giving lessons and still working with horses is just great, but anyone who ever saw what Paul was like at the ring should probably see how different it must be for him now.

I am merely playing devil's advocate here... I, personally, think he's scum and would never, ever dream of giving him business.

rockstarr
Dec. 6, 2001, 02:18 PM
Hey, rockstar.

I'm rockstarr.

We differ vastly on our PV opinions, though I know you're playing devil's advocate.

So I'm going to post right underneath you, so no one gets confused. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

* * *

You don't need a horse to "canter!"

AMom
Dec. 6, 2001, 04:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MargaretF:
I liked what the Chronicle did a couple of years ago - they had a section with the biographies of the murdered horses.

I'll never forget Rub the Lamp. That horse won everything.

[QUOTE]

Weird timing: I was sitting by the fireplace las night reading an old HORSES magazine from 1989 with Greg Best and Gem Twist on the cover, and Rub the Lamp is in it! Lynne Williams (Emily's mom--and I am so sorry to hear that Lynne passed away recently...) had just bought him and was cleaning up down in Arizona. There was a really cute picture of a very young Emily as well.

Ghazzu
Dec. 6, 2001, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jSTR:
Granted, his was an exceptionally bad one, but was a mistake, nonetheless.QUOTE]

What is with this trend towards referring to both criminal and morally represhensible actions as "mistakes"?

It strikes me as a cheap cop out.

It wasn't only s mistake, it was a crime and an abomination.

I'd be very leery that someone who could rename such an act as a "mistake" isn't completely owning yp to the responsiblity they bear.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is the case with PV, but there is a definite trend of folks who get caught at various things (certain chief executives come to mind) who apoligize for making a "mistake" and seem astonished that doesn't make everyone happy.

tyedyecommando
Dec. 6, 2001, 11:00 PM
If anyone wanted to know, I remember that the bios on the killed horses was in the Holiday Gift Mart Issue. Random knowledge.