Paul Valliere Ad -October 26

[Weatherford]

Unfortunately, he has quit writing... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jumphigh83]

Someone emailed me and I accidentally lost the addy. If you want to try again I have no problem with that!

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Portia]

George Lindeman, Jr. always struck me as the worst of a bad lot.

For those who don't know, he was the "other pro" that Midge and Abby were discussing a couple of pages back whose ego was so huge he could not stand that others could do so much better with the horse than he could. The prosecutors presented evidence establishing that his motive in killing the horse was that (a) he hadn't been able to get good performances out of the previously successful hunter, (b) he couldn't stand the embarassment of selling the horse on and possibly having it be a success again with someone else, and (c) he couldn't stand the embarassment of taking a loss on the horse. So he arranged for Tommy Burns to kill it.

His family was incredibly wealthy; the insurance money was chump change to him -- it was all his *#@%ing ego. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Dry Clean Only]

Didn't he also attempt dressage at one point (bought Graf George?)?

And wasn't this after he got kicked out of the AHSA?

[Portia]

Yes, apparently Lindeman Jr. wanted to be the first, or one of the first, to qualify for the USET or the US Olympic team in both show jumping and dressage. He bought Graf George -- who was already a top Grand Prix dressage horse and I think had already been to the Olympics -- and then hired, wasn't it Robert Dover?, as a trainer.

While his criminal case was pending in the federal courts, he got an injunction against the AHSA requiring him to be allowed to ride in classes that were for international rankings or qualfiers. Then he got convicted, his permanent AHSA suspension was upheld, and that was that. He sold his horses, but I don't know whether he also sold Cellular Farms.

[Flashy Gray]

For the "historical record" of this thread:

George Lindemann's farm was indeed called Cellular Farms, after the source of the family's fortunes, and one of the other depraved individuals in this sad sick tale was none other than GL's barn manager, Marion Hulick.

My post-collegiate foray into the A show world was at the time the horse murders were being investigated. When the poo hit the fan, so to speak, in late '91 or early '92, prior to the criminal trial and the AHSA's subsequent arbitration on the status of the horse murderers (I believe this was when the infamous S.I. article came out that blew the lid off Tommy Burns), GL did indeed decide to give dressage a try and bought Graf George, think he was looking for a shot at the World Cup. They pulled his passport as a flight risk prior to the trial, etc., I believe, and so he couldn't travel to Europe to compete. Am sure that there are other, more knowledgeable posters here who can fill in the details. Lindemann's blind arrogance and calculated cruelty astound me to this day.

I am also sickened by the splashy congrats ads in the Chronicle where people ignorantly thank the central perpetrators of these unforgiveable crimes against helpless, defenseless animals. When I see these ads I immediately think "boy, some people really will do anything for a ribbon."

Bottom line: everyone go buy "Hotblood" and let's keep this thread going and may we never ever FORGET what these people did.

Here's to Charisma, Rub the Lamp, and all of the other equine victims, may they rest in peace in a better place.

[jmitch]

All of them. I put PV's name through a search engine to find out who he was and after a couple of intense tries I finally came up with this:

"In 1998 thirteen owners and trainers suffered expulsion from the American Horse Show Association for anywhere from five to twenty five years after their horses suffered much worse fates than they. Nancy Banfield, from New York, arranged to have her horse, Rub The Lamp, electrocuted. Lisa Brandon participated in the murder of the horse Cloud Castle. Jerry Farmer, from Georgia, was involved in electrocution schemes. Ross Hugi, D.V.M., witnessed a trainer kill the horse Jatomic Streaker by flipping him out of a horse trailer and beating the horse to death with a hammer. He then falsified the cause of death records. Alan Levinson, from Illinois, schemed to kill Rainman, who was later electrocuted. George Lindemann JR, from Florida, and Marion Hulick, from Massachusetts, hired a killer to electrocute Charisma, who brought $250,000 in insurance money. Ronald Mueller from Spring Grove, Illinois killed many horses by means of sledgehammer, crowbar, live cremation, and electrocution. Barney Ward of Brewster, New York, arranged to electrocute four horses. Steve Williamson of Chicago, Illinois stood "lookout" while the electrocution of Empire took place. He later helped create the colic symptoms that would be deemed the cause of death."

from a good article at http://www.horse-country.com/jriders/papers/lindsay/index.html

Found this on another newspaper engine:

The complete list of the accused:

Kenneth Hansen, 61, of Chicago, three counts of murder; Richard Bailey, 65, of Chicago, racketeering, mail and wire fraud, money laundering, and crimes relating to murder; Robert Brown of Michigan, racketeering, mail and wire fraud; Jerry Farmer, 61, of Augusta, Ga., racketeering, impeding the IRS; Dr. Ross Hugi, 50, of Mundelein, Ill., wire fraud (pleaded guilty); Barney Ward, 50, of Brewster, N.Y., mail and wire fraud, obstruction of justice, threatening a witness, and conspiracy; George Lindemann Jr., 30, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Marion Hulick, 60, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Paul Valliere, 43, North Smithfield, R.I., conspiracy; Nancy Banfield, 36, of Mathews, Va., conspiracy; Donna Brown, 37, of Palm Beach, Fla., wire fraud; Tim Ray a.k.a. Tom Burns, conspiracy; Dr. Dana Tripp, 34, of Valencia, Pa., conspiracy, failure to file tax returns, and concealing a felony; Johnnie Youngblood, 32, of Napierville, Ill., mail fraud; Steve Williamson, 51, of Plainfield, Ill., mail fraud; Tammie Glaspie, 36, of Walker, Mich., mail fraud; James Hutson, 53, of Winona, Mich., mail fraud; Alan Levinson, 52, of Highland Park, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Michael Hunter, 45, of Mundelein, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Donna Hunter, 43, of Mundelein, mail fraud; Phil Sudakoff, 76, of Chicago, mail fraud; Herb Kroninger, 53, of Bolingbrook, Ill., mail fraud; Scott Thompson, conspiracy; Ron Mueller, 62, formerly of Harvard, Ill., lying to federal peace officer.

Are many of these people back in business!?:(

[BLBGP]

Who owned Charisma before Lindemann? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Poor horses....

[Kitty]

Wasn't George Lindeman also given some type of AHSA Developing Rider Award during this whole mess? I seem to recall that, because at the time it seemed ridiculous to me that someone with such vast financial resources would even allow himself to be considered for any kind of monetary "gift" from the AHSA. Unless it was actually from the dressage group, the USDF? But I do recall his going to Europe to participate and that happened after he was indicted for his crimes against horses. I also remember the booing at the big May Old Salem Farm Charity shows, probably in l995 or l996, when he was riding Threes and Sevens in the Grand Prix there. That was when the Pepsi Challenge existed. He had won the first weekend's grand prix and might have actually gotten the $1,000,000 if he'd won the grand prix the second weekend.

[Anne]

Are Buddy and Donna still married?

[Merry]

You know, everytime I see that stuff in print it just makes me cry. Then I get so angry. I just think back to when I was a very poor, horse-crazy young kid with loads of talent and a kind heart. What I would've done to have had a horse--- any horse--- let alone of the calibre of Rub the Lamp or Charisma. And then to think, with apparently a lot of planning and no remorse, these lovely creatures were electrocuted, beaten to death, "cremated" (burned alive), or whacked with a crowbar because, boo-hoo, they just weren't being the champions they were supposed to be.

Why didn't they all just suck it up and be "men" about it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

"Friends don't let friends eat fish tacos."

[Portia]

Kitty, it was a USET Developing Rider grant, not AHSA. At the time, George Lindemann Sr. was on the USET Board of Trustees, and I think on its Executive Committee.

USET grants are not based in any part upon financial need. They have been given to many riders who are probably perfectly nice individuals but whose families are extremely wealthy and hardly need the money to enable them to compete abroad. There is a contingent of folks who would very much like to see the grant programs revised to take into account financial need as well as competition results and rankings.

[Heidi]

I can imagine the rage that drives someone to murder in the heat of the moment.

But as with crimes against children, I cannot fathom how ANYONE can willingly torture and murder horses. I cannot imagine how ANYONE, never mind a pro whose success was defined by the horses' willingness to jump an obstacle that no human would, could possibly electrocute a horse.

It's a sad reflection on our sport that people like Paul Valliere continue to earn a sufficient living from the sport that they can plunk down thousands of dollars on a self-congratulatory and repugnant ad.

[Weatherford]

Kitty - GL received a USET Developing rider grant, and was allowed to ride in USET - sponsored qualifying classes (in Dressage) during the period up to his conviction. The AHSA (now USA Eq) fought him every step of the way - and it cost them a LOT of money to stand behind their decision to expell him. Even AB gives Jane Clark due credit and praise for her leadership in this expensive fight. The AHSA DID win in court, as you all know.

Everyone should read HOT BLOOD. Remember, these people were not convicted of cruelty to animals, rather they were convicted of federal wire fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud. As I have mentioned before, PV worked out a deal with the FBI whereby he wore a WIRE for over a year. Given the propensity for many of these people for violence, that took some guts. (Of course, it was wear a wire or go to jail for a long time...) Joe Plemmons of Cryostar International in PA also got some time off his sentence for talking to the authorities and pointing a long finger at the guilty. [Note from Erin: Plemmons' testimony was about the Helen Brach case. Plemmons was not indicted in the insurance scandal.]

Also, you MUST remember that these people are only the TIP of the iceberg. BECAUSE they were convicted for wire fraud et al, there is a statute of limitations on their crimes. A NUMBER of others who are BNT's in our world were also caught, but not convicted because, by the time all the evidence was collected, the statute of limitation had passed. Just think of the "one-hit wonders" of the 70's and 80's that came and went - quite literally.

Very very sick and very very sad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[This message was edited by SoEasy on Dec. 07, 2001 at 10:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by Erin on Dec. 09, 2001 at 11:45 PM.]

[TuxWink]

I just wanted to say this is my first time reading about these crimes and I am so sad and sickened. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
The AHSA (now USA Eq) fought him every step of the way - and it cost them a LOT of money to stand behind their decision to expell him. Even AB gives Jane Clark due credit and praise for her leadership in this expensive fight. The AHSA DID win in court, as you all know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, and the little weasel filed a suit against the AHSA for $100 million!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I still remember what was written in Hot Blood about how sweet and trusting Charisma was when Tommy Burns went to do his dirty deed...sigh...

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Who owned Charisma before Lindemann? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Poor horses....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Wheelers of Cismont Manor Farm owned Charisma and subsequently sold him to GL.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

[Sunday]

I'm pretty sure (99%) they are divorced.

[Seven]

I confess to only understanding the surface of this scandel (mostly because it is too sickening to try and understand any further) and to not having read "Hot Blood" (although I know I should) but I *have* seen all the A&E documentaries and I have been wondering something...

Does anyone else remember a fabulous Jr. (I think) Hunter named Rain Forest that won tons in the early 80s? I was getting out of showing at the time, and woefully "out of the loop", but I recall a friend telling me that he had unexpectedly died under mysterious circumstances. Was that horse ever suspected as part of these poor unfortunates? I've noticed that some posters are refering to horses and people that have not been named for various reasons and I just wonder if this horse would fall into that category?

=^+^=

[Jumphigh83]

I thought he was shot by a groom who was angry and wasted on something....I could be mistaken.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Dementia 13]

No Betsy, you are correct.

[Seven]

Well, that's what I had heard...that he was shot (in the knee?) and I suppose that method of killing is far too attention grabbing to have been part of this scandel?

=^+^=

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
Does anyone else remember a fabulous Jr. (I think) Hunter named Rain Forest that won tons in the early 80s? I was getting out of showing at the time, and woefully "out of the loop", but I recall a friend telling me that he had unexpectedly died under mysterious circumstances.... I just wonder if this horse would fall into that category?

=^+^=<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rain Forest was shot - accidently. There was no "mysterious circumstances" involved. If I recall correctly, the Hunterdon grooms were playing cards in a grooming stall (Lake Placid) and a gun was fired. The horse, in an adjoining stall, was hit. It was a sad time for all.
Rain Forest was a wonderful horse!

A dirty dog is a happy dog.

[Coreene]

"A gun was fired." Why do you need a gun while playing cards? How scary, I am sticking to Monopoly from now on.

[Seven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WC YellowDog:

Rain Forest was shot - accidently. There was no "mysterious circumstances" involved. If I recall correctly, the Hunterdon grooms were playing cards in a grooming stall (Lake Placid) and a gun was fired. The horse, in an adjoining stall, was hit. It was a sad time for all.
Rain Forest was a wonderful horse!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

=^+^=

[Seven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coreene:
"A gun was fired." Why do you need a gun while playing cards? How scary, I am sticking to Monopoly from now on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you on that one Coreene!

=^+^=

[dublin]

Remind me to never play cards with those people!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

How sad, and seems to me, so utterly preventable....

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

[can't re-]

I am in the middle of reading Hot Blood. I am so sickened by the description of Streewise's death......I need to share.
"...the well muscled stable hand, as if trying to emulate Hank Aaron going for the fence in right center, swung a crowbar with all his considerable strength.....The crack of the leg breaking could be heard by the other agents a quarter of a mile away.......Streetwise let out a horrendous scream....Streetwise collapsed in a bellowing heap.....then the animal hopped up on his three good legs and tried to gallop away. All the while, the animal wailing like an air-raid siren, obviously in excrutiating pain."
How sick is that??????

As is our confidence, so is our capacity.
~W. Hazlitt

[Seven]

I read your post after returning with my lunch and now am too nauseated to eat.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

=^+^=

[Weatherford]

I knew a kid who was a working student at a barn where GL had horses. She used to talk about the absolutely INCREDIBLE hunter that NO ONE was allowed to TOUCH - much less ride - she used to sneak in a talk to it. Of course, it belonged to GL, and no one was allowed near it because it wouldn't perform for him - therefore it was not allowed to be even friends with anyone else. The kind of horse she'd never be able to afford in a million years! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Poor horse!

The grooms in the Rain Forest case were 1) illegals 2) drunk 3) shot the horse deliberately because he was making noise and disturbing their card game. Not something to be glossed over as an accident! The Junior who owned him was devastated and quit riding, I think, shortly thereafter.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

As I have said numerous times before, there were a number of incredible horses who disappeared under suspect circumstances in the 70's & 80's - but the owners/trainers couldn't be indicted because of the statute of limitations.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[buryinghill2]

I think Karen McKelvy owned Rain Forest at the time of his death. Weird things always happened at Lake Placid, and that year was the weirdest. We came in one morning to find Albany gone. It was only a day or two after Rain Forest had been killed, and everyone was freaking. He had not gotten loose, the gate was clipped behind him. Someone had let him loose! Since the gate was clipped, night watch assumed we had taken him somewhere. He was out cruising the mountains. Very scary!
I had to put one horse down there as a result of an accident in the jumper ring, and I had another one suffer a devastating injury in the hunter ring there.
I know Lake Placid is a very popular show, but personally I don't miss it at all...

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
...The Junior who owned him was devastated and quit riding, I think, shortly thereafter...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No. Karen <McKelvy> Stone did not "quit riding."

[khobstetter]

Karen McKelvey is now Karen McKelvey Stone. She is married to Dodd Stone, a most incredible shoer of national quality, and lives in Black Forest, Colorado (at least the last I knew).
She really never quite got over or accepted the death of Rain Forest. Her own horses show now under Rain Forest Enterprises.

Another horse that GL had was a horse named So Dark purchased from John McConnell (Denver) right after he won somethng like the Presidents Cup in Washington. I think the year was about 1987-88. He was one of the first $1,000,000.00 (MILLION /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) GP horses sold. John was back east with Rodney Jenkins for the indoors and GL offered the big price for the horse, a big black gelding that could jump the moon.

Anyway, the story goes that GL was trying to make the Olympic/International teams and needed horses but he never could ride So Dark well. Certainly not getting around the rings in Florida that next spring with any huge success, which he needed to in order to be "short listed".

One morning the grooms found the horse with a terrible belly ache and then he foundered SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO badly he ended up in a sling for weeks while the insurance company and GL fought about it. Marion DuPont was very involved with this horse and the situation at the time.

Eventually the insurance company agreed and the horse was put down just as the coffin bone came through the bottom of the foot. All of this is in print and there were numerous newspaper articles at the time.

The McConnell family was absolutely heart broken, especially John as he LOVED THAT HORSE !!!

Just another day in Paradise huh...I guess if your GL and the group, that was your paradise ....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[buryinghill2]

I was stabled next to GL in the old permanent barns in Palm Beach the year So Dark died. He suffered a long time while they fought it out with the insurance company. Their blacksmith at the time was George Fitzgerald and I remember he was fighting mad at the fact that they let that poor horse suffer so long. What a tragedy..

[findeight]

Because people who will spend months devouring Consumer Reports and check the Better Business Bureau for complaints before they buy a $350 washing machine will spend six figures on a horse without so much as learning which end the feed goes into.
Amazing when I hear newbies on the circuit raving about this trainer or that when "everybody knows" there are alot of problems and legal entanglements behind them. And that is the problem..not "everybody" does know. Better they read it here then find out the hard way. Truth can be a bitter pill to swallow and so forth.
The other side is the distrust many feel towards the countless BNTs that not only do not engage in illegal activities but refuse to buy or sell with those who do. Most BNTs are well able to admit when they made a mistake with a horse that is not going to work out. Most also are dedicated to finding horses for a decent price that can be resold if they do not work out, not jacking price and commission so sky high they thought there was no other way out. What happened here, overpriced horses that would not sell for a third of the purchase price or insured value. That doomed the horses, rendered them ineligible for a career change.
It is not the decision of a horseman to kill a horse because it did not do what they promised it would.
As has been mentioned, these so called "trainers" had shady reputations well before this happened. I knew some of these names 25 years ago showing western out on the Pacific coast.

From Allergy Valley USA

[poltroon]

I guess the electrocuted horses got off easy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Jumphigh83]

Weatherford, I "knew" it wasn't an unfortunate "accident". I recall drinking or drugs and it was NOT a sanitary as one of the other posters would like us to believe. Our shamateur vet was the one who SIGNED the "death certificate"(what do you call that for a horse?) for Streetwise aka Inisfree. A wholely gruesome and disgusting group of people who would participate in anything like this!

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Weatherford]

The grooms in the LP incident were charged and sent back to Mexico by the INS.

I am glad to hear Ms. McKelvey is happily married and still riding! My information on that was from a LONG time ago, and I apologize.

One of the reasons LPHS may feel funny, Abby, is it is one show to which the INS ALWAYS goes - and someone always knows they are coming/there, and the place clears out! It is a sad commentary on our industry that the riders can't deal with their horses at the show ring without the grooms, and that we need to hire illegals to work - rather than taking to time to get them legal working papers OR hiring those already legal. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jumphigh83]

One year awhile ago (when this man had NOT been showing for a while) the "clue" to the illegals was announced over the PA "Allen Chesler, please meet your party at the (insert where the INS was)" They all scattered and could avoid the site where the INS was! Not at all an inside job covering up for the aliens!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Right or wrong, it was painfully obvious to those of us on the "inside" what was going on! Kind of sad that it had to be that way but having tried to hire natives I KNOW they want too much for too little. A sad commentary on the work ethic of todays youth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Kind of sad that it had to be that way but having tried to hire natives I KNOW they want too much for too little. A sad commentary on the work ethic of todays youth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a minute. The 'native' kids I know are paid less than minimum wage and are frequently paid no wage at all, but work on a barter system for board and/or lessons. The hours are horrendous and the work ethic is very high. What 'too much for too little' experiences have you had?

[Jumphigh83]

PLENTY! I have a "crew" right now at 7plus an hour and they log in NINE yes NINE (3 "kids" times 3hours each)a day to do between 8 and 10 stalls!! Most of that time is spent talking watching each other work fooling around, etc etc. They get FREE lessons, in some cases BOARD, showing, trucking AND a paycheck! NINE HOURS to do 10 stalls????? PLEASE. Try to hire help. I would bet you do not own a barn.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Duffy]

Hire a Virginia Intermont grad and you'll get more than your money's worth! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dry Clean Only]

How about we get back to talking about the real villians rather than complaining about the 'lazy kids' that you hired? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No new news on Paul's judging job in NH, so I assume it will still happen.

All of this happened when I first got into riding, some of my first memories of reading the Chronicle were articles talking about Marion Hulick, Barney Ward and GL's sentencing /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Bumpkin]

I recall this article written by our Erin, Sentences Hulick (http://www.geocities.com/~eharty/clips/sentence.html).

Does anyone know anything more recent about them?

I remember how I would see their photos in HORSES and wish I had such wonderful horses and ponies to show, and be riding on the East Coast at all the big shows like them.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
I have a "crew" right now at 7plus an hour and they log in NINE yes NINE (3 "kids" times 3hours each)a day to do between 8 and 10 stalls!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is TERRIBLE! And actually, I used to own a barn and paid per stall, not per hour, for mucking. After that time, I myself had a second job for 2 1/2 years as barn help in another boarding barn & my daughter and many other kids I know (I'm active in USPC)work at area boarding barns. The barn we're at now has set a time limit: they pay $5.50 per hour and you are to do X number of stalls in 2 hours. If you need more time, too bad. Of course, if a special circumstance arises (sick or injured horse or whatever) that requires time and attention, that's different, but the basic stall-cleaning is 2 hours to do your assigned group, and the # of stalls is reasonable to complete in that time. When my daughter started working there she thought the barn owners very foolish for paying by the hour: my daughter would do her group in about 2 hours, and she always cleans a stall THOROUGHLY, 1 girl did her group in a little over 1 hour (and did a crappy job)and 2 kids would put down 3 or 4 hours, getting paid double what my daughter was paid for doing the same amount of work! Talk about unfair! The hard-working kids were actually penalized and earned 50% less than the kids who talked and chatted and stalled. Eventually the farm owners caught on, thus the change to 'we'll give you 2 hours and that's it.' Turning out, bringing in, feeding, bandaging, blanketing and/or boots are paid at $5.50/hour. Other barns in this area pay far less. A couple work on barter system mostly.

Another place in this area pays $X per stall - that seems to be the best way, as the slower, just-learning kids don't feel pressure to do a shoddy job.

If it takes 3 children 3 hours to muck 8-10 stalls yes, you are being ripped off. That's 1 hour per stall! I'd either pay them per stall or set a fair amount of time and limit them to that. How awful for you.

There are a lot of boarding barns in this area and I guess you're right, Betsy, when I think about it I can certainly call to mind some slackers and shoddy workers. However, I can call to mind here in Central PA MANY more who are good, honest, hard-working kids and adults who are staffing area stables. You may need to find these same kids where you are! I hope you soon do.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dry Clean Only:
How about we get back to talking about the real villians rather than complaining about the 'lazy kids' that you hired? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, you're right, sorry I got OT. I spend a lot of time with teenagers and I think our country is in great hands for the future. Just had to stick up for them, but you're right, that's another thread.

[lauriep]

is far from the only one that hires illegals. While it may seem that these companies hire illegals just to save money and hence increase profit, the truth is that Americans really don't want many of the jobs that they hold, like fruit/vegetable pickers. These menial jobs are hard work and don't pay well and so don't attract Americans. Many of the Hispanics are now legal for the harvesting seasons, but many are not.

Before the late 70's, you only found them in the horse business in CA and the other border states, where illegals have always been a major problem. When Kathy Moore and co. came east, they brought Hispanic help, it caught on, first with Hunterdon, and the rest is history. Here in VA, you NEVER saw a Hispanic face 15 years ago. Now they are everywhere, even in little Farmville, VA. And they are now bringing their wives and kids with them, which wasn't the case til recently.

I have no objection to people seeking a better life here, but it should be done legally and we now should be more careful than ever about who we let in. We don't have to let "everybody" in...

Laurie

[LaurieB]

When I was twelve, I went to the Hulicks' camp, Saddle River Riding Camp, for the summer. It was a strange and interesting experience, but since I was surrounded by horses, I was pretty happy. I ended up buying a horse from them at the end (funny, had they realized all along my parents had the money to do that they would have treated me better. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

Anyway, we were real novices and they obviously saw us coming. The mare turned out to be nothing they had represented her to be (why wasn't I surprised years later when Marian Hulick was found to be a liar? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )including measuring 14.3 rather than being the pony they claimed she was.

Two years later, I was showing at Fairfield with my new trainer. Riding the large pony that trainer had found for me I beat James Hulick's Neat 'n Tidy. Not recognizing me, Marian hustled over to find out who I was. "That's the kid you sent us," I overheard my trainer say. "You know, the one you said would never amount to anything as a rider, but that I could probably get some money out of the parents? I guess she turned out okay after all." /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

So I don't really have any warm feelings toward the Hulicks. That said, they have gone through some hard times. James died quite young, I believe of MS. Gail, his sister, has diabetes and is blind. Marian you know about. Hank is, I think, somewhere on the fringes of the horse business, maybe running a vanning company?

[Weatherford]

Hank runs the stabling/security for most of Gene Mische's shows. Or did in FL as of last year.

[Midge]

Hank used to be Horse Watch. He sold Horse Watch to Glen...Glen... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I believe he is retired, now.

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

[SGray]

fox and henhouse???

[dublin]

James Hulick died in 1999 at age 45. Here's the obituary from Chronicle of the Horse.

JAMES HENRY HULICK

James Henry Hulick, the winner of the 1970 AHSA Hunter Seat Medal Finals and reserve champion of the ASPCA Maclay
Finals, died on June 23 after a long battle with multiple sclerosis. He was 45.

Mr. Hulick, of Sterling, Mass., began riding as a child, excelling in the pony divisions with Neat N Tidy, the junior hunter divisions
with Happy Ending, General C, Force Of Habit, Miracle Jet, and Public Affair, among others. He then claimed several equitation
championships on Tiny�s Thought with the help of trainers Victor Hugo-Vidal and George Morris.

Mr. Hulick continued as a professional rider and trainer in both the hunter and jumper rings. In 1974, he claimed the National
Leading Rider title at the Washington International aboard J.C. Penny�s Willie Wonderful and won the Grand Prix of Ox Ridge
(Conn.).

He is survived by parents Henry F. Hulick and Marion J. Gassler of Sterling, Mass., and sister Gale M. Hulick of Winchendon,
Mass.

I had no idea that his sister had such significant health problems as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Sparky22]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
Hank used to be Horse Watch. He sold Horse Watch to Glen...Glen... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glenn Geary

~~Kate~~

Member of Digruntled College Students Not-so Anonymous

"Date equestrians, the rest are just players" Haha...suuuuuure!

Ride like a champ!

[Bumpkin]

Thank You Laurie B.

It seems so sad when you see the photos of the Hulicks showing and riding.

Like it was all fake and doomed. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[SGray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:

One morning the grooms found the horse with a terrible belly ache and then he foundered SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO badly he ended up in a sling for weeks while the insurance company and GL fought about it. Marion DuPont was very involved with this horse and the situation at the time.

Eventually the insurance company agreed and the horse was put down just as the coffin bone came through the bottom of the foot. All of this is in print and there were numerous newspaper articles at the time.


/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


that is such a sad tale.....and so unnessary

[buryinghill1]

For a split second I thought I saw a ghost...
Roseau Platiere getting dragged up the road in Sugarbush...

Never forget.

[This message was edited by WC YellowDog on Jan. 03, 2002 at 03:41 PM.]

[Midge]

Why? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

[CS]

on Gail Hulick.. although she does suffer from severe diabetes.. she is not blind.. her eyesight may not be 100 %.. but definitly not blind.... she actually teaches riding full time at a school for mentally and physically challeged children..

[SGray]

wow -- wow

[bucksnort]

Thanks Sotchie. Very well said.

***~~~Bucksnort~~~***
You can have my boyfriend, but stay away from my horse.

[hifi]

Welcome, Scotchie, thanks for another eye opener on Paul.

[Bumpkin]

Thank you for that eye opener.
I agree how can anyone who stands up for this person have any respect in the Horse world? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[gray17htb]

Scotchie...BRAVO!

[Jane]

Thank you, scotchie!

[Erin]

Scotchie... please check the BB rules.

For our purposes, the only "facts" that can be posted are items that have appeared in print or charges that have been filed in a court of law. You're welcome to your opinion, but we can't allow posters to make allegations about illegal or unethical activities without substantiation, so I've edited your post.

Really, folks... I think all sides of this topic have been debated pretty thoroughly. I haven't seen a new thought posted in at least 10 pages. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[khobstetter]

Please Erin...!!!!!

I am so tired of seeling this pop up all the time..... enough is enough... it only gives him free publicity....

[buryinghill1]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Erin]

Uh, guys, if you stop adding posts to it, it will go away by itself...

[poltroon]

Not that I'm a fan of PV, but to be fair, a blindness like that is subtle and something good, caring horsemen miss all the time.

[KellyS]

As a younger generation rider who didn't really becomed involved in the horse world until the early 90's, this thread has bee both eye opening and has encouraged me to research the facts about these killings.

The stories are appalling! I read both news articles and some "fiction" books based on these actual incidents and I cried. How anyone could do these things to innocent animals is absolutely disgusting and beyond me.

I'm not going to comment on PV or the people who train with him...I think most of you can determine how I feel about them, but I want to THANK everyone whose has posted about these incidents because they SHOULD NOT be forgotten.

[buryinghill2]

This is why this thread should not go away...

[haligator]

Anybody notice yet another 'gratitude' ad in COTH last week from a prominent trainer that thanked PV for his help during the show season with a particular rider?

[Dementia 13]

Yes, and I have lost respect for her for doing that. Ugh....

[buryinghill1]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Maybe it should be called the Streetwise thread /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Midge]

The ad that originally started the thread continues to run in Sidelines, as well.

A question for all of those other pros who can't make it without PV, 'What are you thinking??'

I still think it is all part of the reinstatement issue. Stay alert and stay aware.

****
'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Well, 17 pages finally got me to order my copy of Hot Blood, which I'm sure is a Good Thing, much as I like having shreds of naivete left.
Trusting y'all - or most of you - will be a support group when I read it?
Erin, I don't think "new thoughts in the last 10 pages" is what it's about. Actually, I'm sure it's not. Awareness, not hiding our heads in the sand, and a real life ethical issue to contemplate are important. (if "would we ride with Paul" is too much of a no-brainer for many of us now we've got "how about our response to noted trainers who thank him for his help" )
Especially with all the trivial threads which do pop up, it would be a true shame to lock this. Not that I gather you're contemplating that - it's true, it will die a natural death sometime, but no need to speed it along.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl:

Erin, I don't think "new thoughts in the last 10 pages" is what it's about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But when people are just repeating themselves over and over and OVER and saying the same exact things... well, it's like the helmet threads. You can voice your indignation as much as you want (and y'all have, for 17 pages), but I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind.

You can only say "How can you do such a thing!" so many times... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Jumphigh83]

They may be beating a dead horse but the way I look at it..."Knowledge is power.."

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[HSM]

I don't think at this point it's about changing anyone's mind, because you're right, those who strongly support him are not going to be changed by what's said here.

Instead, I think it's about opening people's minds, or eyes - in particular, the people who have either never heard about this (especially the younger readers), or the people who may be "undecided" because they haven't got the facts.

For this reason, I hope you'll let the thread live on, so long as the tone remains as it is.

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83: They may be beating a dead horse.."...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[haligator]

Hi Erin,
For some people, talking about this subject (even if it seems a bit redundant)is therapeutic. The average horse lover just can't fathom the horrific actions that are being discussed, and reading and writing about it helps them come to terms with something that was horrifying.

Yes, the thread would go away if everyone stopped writing about it, but that won't change history and make those horses live again. Due to this fact, talking about those horses and remembering them helps us honor them. It also helps keep the emphasis on doing what is right for all horses.

Hallie McEvoy

[Paloma]

I agree with another poster who says it is theraputic to "vent". We're behaving ourselves and using enormous restraint in not using 4-letter words to describe this scum (Oops! scum is a 4-letter word /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ).

I digress...
What Paul did was not a mistake; it was blatantly, premeditatively intentional . It was an horrific deliberate act. It was murder for hire. This thread should not die; it is important that people realise who this "man" is and what he has done, and that people who willingly associate with him are tacitly condoning his actions and therefore no better than the "man" himself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif [:insert puking icon here:] /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Word of mouth does work. If by keeping this thread alive, we keep one more person who is not familiar with this man from putting one more dollar in that man's wallet, then it is worth it.

~*~This is Ground Control to Major Tom
You've really made the Grade,
and the papers want to know whose shirts you wear...~*~

[geckoUBC]

Hmm.. Paul is a four letter word too!

Aleesha

DRESSAGE, n.: the passionate pursuit of perfection by the obsessively imperfect

[Howbzare]

I have mixed opinions about Paul.

My first instructor was one of his good friends or buisness assosiates(this was before the whole insurance issues)I will not mention any names, though I will say that this lady was very crazy IMO, but that is besides the point. She informed my family and I of what was about to go down with Paul, even before it happened(my parents were close to her as we were also neighbors), leading me to belive she was somehow involved, but I could never prove this nor would I want to get in the middle of the mess. Needless to say my training with this lady did not last for very long after this though. The area where I use to live and ride was very well known for the ties it had w/ very shall I say, "powerfull" people. you always had to be carefull of what you said and to whom you said those things to, as more than likely if what you said could get people into trouble with the law, it could get you into serious trouble with people you would never want to mess with. And I forget who said this, but earlier I read somewhere that Paul did risk alot by wearing that wire, I know from the people up there, that I delt only a tiny bit with, just how dangerouse what he did was. I just would not like people to forget that(though I understand it is only a very, very small thing in the whole big scheme of things, but it is worth mentioning since everyone is screaming about facts, that is fact)

As much as I may not like Paul, I still have to respect that he has/can get riders to the top in the Eq classes. And to be honest, if I had the money or the horses, I would still consider training with him. I would not keep my horse stabled with him though and that would be the major consern I would have with training with him.
As far as being allowd on show grounds, I still belive that he should not be let on show grounds no matter what. What he did was inexcusable and just because he is a big name doesn't mean he should get all his privilages back.
Sorry if my opinion seems confussing

[This message was edited by Howbzare on Jan. 11, 2002 at 09:48 PM.]

[Bumpkin]

I was wondering if anyone else read the articles in the Am Owner issue of COTH this year?
I was surprised to see a lengthy interview with an Am/O who rides with PV.
She is a PR person in NYC, so perhaps she is the one who had advised him to place that advertisement in COTH?
I still find the ad strange to read.