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DarkerHorse
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:18 AM
Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc? Maybe it is just because we follow along and do what other people do. There are several parts of how we take care of horses, I guess some people call it horsemanship (or uh, something related to that word - - horsemanship)Most people do them with the impression their horses would not perform as well or fall flat on their side dead.

Are there really reasons for doing the things which I thought about? And, I mean good reasons that make sense, not just the 'horse will fall flat on their head' or 'will loose at shows' answer. That makes things we do sound like superstition. Explain to me WHY the horse will die or get crippled.

What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? Why is there any difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a difference, is there?...

Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.

Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it.

Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!

Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really.

Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse?

Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up?

Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!

Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses.

Uh, thats all I can think of.. I'm finallly sleepy.. Maybe day 4 1/2 of insomnia will close soon becuse I think COTH is putting me to sleep ;P

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

forums.catchride.com

DarkerHorse
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:18 AM
Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc? Maybe it is just because we follow along and do what other people do. There are several parts of how we take care of horses, I guess some people call it horsemanship (or uh, something related to that word - - horsemanship)Most people do them with the impression their horses would not perform as well or fall flat on their side dead.

Are there really reasons for doing the things which I thought about? And, I mean good reasons that make sense, not just the 'horse will fall flat on their head' or 'will loose at shows' answer. That makes things we do sound like superstition. Explain to me WHY the horse will die or get crippled.

What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? Why is there any difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a difference, is there?...

Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.

Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it.

Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!

Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really.

Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse?

Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up?

Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!

Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses.

Uh, thats all I can think of.. I'm finallly sleepy.. Maybe day 4 1/2 of insomnia will close soon becuse I think COTH is putting me to sleep ;P

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

forums.catchride.com

Weatherford
Jan. 5, 2003, 02:37 AM
I agree with you in many ways, Darkerhorse. Much of what we do in the US is NOT done in other places in the world, and I don't think our horses ARE better off for it! Much of what we do NOT do misses the point, also.

Looking at the individual issues you mention:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? Why is there any difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a difference, is there?... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand this one either. Tying a horse in the stall to prevent them from eating or drinking perhaps, but in all honesty, the horse should be cool enough to go back into his stall when you are finished. THAT is HORSEMANSHIP!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blanketing is simply to protect the coat so it DOES look good when showing. You are protecting it from sun as well as rain, etc. It really isn't necessary, simply cosmetic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more. I don't think polowraps protect at all - certainly not from concussion - or at least not as well as rubber lined boots. And there is more chance of causing problems with polo wraps - too tight, too loose, incorrectly wrapped, etc. However, there use is a matter of opinion; their CORRECT application is a matter of horsemanship.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am of that group who disagrees with you here, DH! I believe it is more important to have a horse FIT, HEALTHY, and HAPPY. If a horse is sore/unsound, he isn't those things. IMHO, Americans over medicate and use it as an excuse for not getting their horses properly fit and strong. THAT is a HORSEMANSHIP issue, and one that will remain argued!! However, would you run a race unprepared and unfit? How can you ask your horse to do the same? If your horse is sore after a show, then he isn't fit enough. (I don't take aspirin myself, either)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My barn owner in NJ used to say a dirty horse is a happy horse. I think we over wash our horses and take all the healthy stuff out of their coats - therefore we have to put it all back in. Ridiculous. It is the natural oils in the coat that give it the shine! If you groom your horse every day - NOT WASH - GROOM - the coat will be sleeker, shinier, and their muscles will feel better!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two part question, here. Dressage? Well for those who really know anything about dressage, that term really is meaningless until you are at least at 3rd level. Anything below that is flatwork. The basics of flatwork for ANY horse are the same - supple, balanced, obediant, and FORWARD. Flatwork gives you that, so you can perform in whatever discipline you choose. A balanced hunter, properly moving forward from his hind end WILL jump better - loose rein or not. A proper STRETCH brings the horse's back up and his hind end engages increasing the stride and suspension - how many hunters really do that correctly? Or are they just putting their heads down into some kind of "pretty frame" and tiptoeing around? Does your horse have problems engaging his front end over a fence? Try some flatwork. Don't think he can jump more than 2'? Try some flatwork. Stength, balance, and agility can all be increased that way.

Can you overtrain a horse? DEFINITELY!!! Horses get sour, sore, grouchy, nasty, etc, when overtrained. That is why riding out is so important!! Horses also get that way when incorrectly trained...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more! After a lesson or jumping? That shouldn't be enough stress to have to wrap, or that the horse stocks up. If your horse does, it probably needs more turnout, and more hardening fitness exercises. Many years ago, Lars Senderholm wrote an excellent article in the USCTA News about how the Americans over-wrap. That remains true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses colic more in the cold, as that is when they don't drink enough water. I don't know much about feeding in the heat (It always worried me) - nor much about how you really can make sure your horse is cool enough, when the weather is over 100 degrees and humid. However, there was a lot of study done before the Atlanta Olympics on the effects of heat and humidity on Event horses - maybe you should read up on it and look for your answers there.

I will say that I have seen a hot horse colic when fed too soon after work. (Not one of mine, one in a barn where I was boarding.) I have also seen them survive it with no problem - amazingly enough. Do some reesearch and report back, ok? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I explained on another thread, jumping small jumps from the start IS part of my trainer's method - and I agree. I was walking my four year old over poles from the first time I hand walked him - when we finally let him trot and canter a gymnastic free schooling, he was extremely lackadasical about it! He is now jumping little logs and barrels out in the field - he goes forward, is straight, and very relaxed. He went through trot poles in the ring the first time she took him in there - they were nothing special, just part of the routine. I like the notion that jumping is nothing different than every day work. When we do this with the babies, they don't jump twenty fences - they jump 2 or 3 or 4 - that's it - and all very quiet, no surprises!

Remember, every time you ride the horse, you are training it - whether you are planning to or not!

Good questions, DH, and I look forward to other people's comments.

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Showpony
Jan. 5, 2003, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:


Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.

Amen, I never understood that myself! We don't blanket our non showing barely ridden in the winter fur balls. And I get looks like I am from another planet if I tell people. Our horses are fat, furry, healthy and are in stalls at night and in bad weather. Why blanket? I worry about rubs and sliding blankets for them to get tangled up in.

Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up?

Also agree. Where I used to work they would wrap the horses and leave them in stalls after lessons and shows. I always thought they would be better off turned out without wraps, maybe boots or something, so they could move around and NOT stock up and get stiff standing in a stall.
I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

forums.catchride.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gayle
Jan. 5, 2003, 09:06 AM
Or the otherside of the question is horsemanship not as much what we do that may not be necessary versus what we DON'T do that we should?

Too many people in the sport (hear me out before you stomp on me) aren't in touch with their horse. While some people do need the help of someone tacking up so that they can ride (read: working 40+ hours/week to afford the riding) there are too many that rely on the "full service" facility so that they don't HAVE to do it.

The days of the horseman who comes out and truly knows them are dwindling. Minor ailments and injuries that a horseman would handle on his own send the modern owner running screaming for the vet. How many can truly bandage the injured horse and maintain it during care for the injury instead of just relying on the barn staff because they can't be bothered?

It goes back to the thread about the recent Between Rounds column on needing more cowboy in our riders. That is what we have created: riders. Fortunately at our barn we don't have staff that can groom and tack for the up and coming people. They are creating horseman. If the lesson kids can't ride then they get an indoor non-riding lesson in bandaging, horse care etc. If they want to show they have to be able to function independently in getting their horse ready to show. They have tack cleaning and grooming parties the night before so that they can support each other and learn from each other too. There are no grooms. I heard about a barn where the people who boarded there did NOTHING for themselves. There was an entire flotilla of staff that did it all. Including the barn worker who got down on one knee so that the kid could mount her horse using him as the mounting block! All while she was heard to say she didn't know why she was riding that day since she was so tired. From doing what? It certainly wasn't taking care of her pony. Would she know if it was off slightly and needed her attention? If she doesn't pick it's feet how does she know if it has thrush, a slightly bent shoe or a loose nail?

Bottom line: the horseman gives his/her horse the attention it needs all the time. They don't leave a note for the barn staff that says something needs their attention as a first line reaction. It is not just the pointless crap that is being done that doesn't make a horseman it is the not doing the basics of the day to day needs of a horse that keeps someone a rider and not a horseman.

"I drank what?" Socrates

PinkPonie
Jan. 5, 2003, 09:17 AM
In many ways I agree with you. My dad always cracks jokes about how us horse people baby our horses WAY too much.....

*PinkPonie

Dragoon
Jan. 5, 2003, 09:51 AM
I think it's pointless to restate everything, especially since I agree wholeheartedly with Weatherford. Good points Richard. One other thing to think about is that "horsemanship" is also knowing when not to do all of that stuff.

"Keep your stick on the ice." (Red Green)

lotsospots
Jan. 5, 2003, 10:07 AM
For those of us that truly love our horses, and are concerned about their well-being, it is not useless crap to ensure that they recieve the best treatment necessary - they are not f**cking machines.

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boobada
Jan. 5, 2003, 10:12 AM
Sorry, my short attention span doesn't let me read anymore than the original and one or two after that...

I totaly agree with Weatherford/DH on everything...weird...(I'm usually the queen of dissenting opinions).

Anyhow, above all the jumping thing has always amazed me. All my guys learn to jump in the state park, follow the leader style, after having appropriate time to come down after the track (varies horse to horse). They pretty much know "Go" and ummm that's about it. I've always found it helpful, they can worry about rythm and all that other junk later. I find, like with little kids, if they think it's fun and see their friends doing it....10 billion times easier to get them to do it.
Just my $.02

BarbB
Jan. 5, 2003, 10:53 AM
"Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc?"

Actually, I want my horses to be healthy, fit, and content - all the time. Not just survive my riding.

"Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter?"

There isn't much you can teach a horse that 'doesn't matter.' I want my horses to understand their job, be confident and respond immediately when I ask them to do something.

I have seen lots of horses ruined and broken down by people who think that taking care of a horse and training it are just boring dull work.
Sad for them, sadder for their horses.

I was going to respond to some other points in this post - but why bother?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry website, dogs and horses (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

Showpony
Jan. 5, 2003, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lotsospots:
For those of us that truly love our horses, and are concerned about their well-being, it is not useless crap to ensure that they recieve the best treatment necessary - they are not f**cking machines.


Spot this!!
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I think DarkerHorse makes some good points. I think most EVERYONE wants their horse to have the best treatment, but some of what we do makes us feel better and does little to make the horses better and certainly is NOT necessary for the well being of the horse. Just my opinion.

dogchushu
Jan. 5, 2003, 12:25 PM
I can't answer all the questions, but I do have a couple points to make:

About polo wraps: I don't use them, but those I know that do use them just to prevent nicks and cuts (not for support). Actually, most use boots for the same reason (I only know one rider who prefers polos, and she does so for the looks--she hates the look of boots). Is it so bad to prevent nicks and cuts?

About medication: I guess the difference is whether you're using the medication therapeutically (to help the horse and prevent future damage) or to cover an existing problem. I believe that most pain is there for a reason: to tell us that something is wrong. Bute can help reduce inflammation which can cause future problems. And often riding can help because it gets to muscles going and the blood flowing and that can help in recovery. But I do have a problem riding when it can cause future damage. If a horse needs time off and a rider masks the pain because they want to compete, that I have a problem with. But not the use of medication in and of itself.

On blankets: yes, my horse would do just fine with her natural coat--if all she did was hang out in a field and come in occassionally to eat. But she has a job, and it takes forever for me to cool her down with her natural coat. Not to mention that she gets incredibly hot working in that woolly coat (apparently, she didn't read the book saying that TBs don't get much of a coat--she's a darn mammoth!) So she gets clipped and her natural protection from cold is gone. But she doesn't have to wear a coat when it's 65 degrees! The only time she wears clothing when it's that warm is when she has a show the next day, she's getting turned out, and I don't want to find at 5:00 am that her grey coat turned green overnight! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

On grooming: SPOTLESS? Bwahahahahahahaaaa... the mare is now two-toned: grey where the blanket goes, yellow-green everywhere else! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Yes, I groom her before I ride, but I don't spot clean her. I groom her because 1) she likes it, 2) I like it and it gives me some bonding time with her, 3) it's a good way to check her for pasture boo boos, 4) I'm fanatical about removing mud and dirt from the saddle and bridle areas, and 5) I believe it shows in the coat in the long term if it's kept curried and brushed. But the best currying and brushing is not going to remove stains. I don't worry about those if I'm not showing.

But some people like to keep their horses pretty whether they're showing or not. Who am I to criticize? If they like it, more power to them.

fleur
Jan. 5, 2003, 12:34 PM
I'm not going to reiterate points I agree with, but I think one thing that needs to be said is that we are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens to these animals. Yes, in the wild they would survive without grooming, shoeing, etc. But, it's been a long time since the horses we know were anything like wild horses. It's like the Fox says in the Little Prince -- man tamed them, and now needs to be responsible for them. That goes for all aspects of care and comfort.

If I lived in a 12 x 12 stall all day with minimal turnout, I'd be glad for any extra attention!

*EMMA*

lotsospots
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:32 PM
I think all of these methods started out with the horses' best interest in mind, and are not just "useless crap".

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Janet
Jan. 5, 2003, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? Why is there any
difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a
difference, is there?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No idea <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously
not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably because WE would be cold, and we are anthropomorphizing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I
mean really- think about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Purely cosmetic.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a biggie. In "nature" pain serves, among other things, to prevent the horse from overusing the injured joint/muscle. etc., and injuring it further. If the horse is on pain killers, it no longer realizes that it needs to protect the injury, and is likely to make the problem worse.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles
really.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(1) You need to make sure the area under the saddle, girth, and bridle are clean, or you will create sores were the tack rubs the dirt into the skin.
(2)By grooming the horse all over, even lightly, you are more likely to notice small injuries, cuts, etc. before thay become problems.
(3) Grooming stimulates the skin. Whatever the actual mechanics, grooming thoroughly every day s the best way to create a "gleaming" coat on show day. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A hunter needs to APPEAR to maintain a constant pace, which means you may need to make subtle adjustments in pace. Dressage (done right) allows you to make the horse more adjustable. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Primary purpose is to prevent stocking up. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The issue here is not actual temperature, but that more of the blood is flowing through the musles, and less is going to the digestive tract. It is sort of like (but the other way around)the rule that swimming too soon after eating increases the chance of cramps.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Need to walk before you run. What happens on the approach has a lot more influence on how well the horse jumps. Also, you don't want to pound a young horse's joints, etc. with a lot of jumping.

If the horse DOES jump calmly, great. But if the horse starts to go too fast, too slow, etc. you need the "tools" to address tha

Lisi
Jan. 5, 2003, 02:14 PM
Have you ever wrapped a polo wrap on your own leg? Its like a mild version of an ace bandage, or an SMB. They DO support the leg- for those of you who think they are simply to protect from cuts, you must not have learned how to wrap polo wraps correctly.

"Why wrap a horse after jumping unless they stock up?" Wraps do not "take away pain." Put on correctly, they give your horse's legs extra support, like polo wraps. My horse's tendons in his front legs tend to be loose and easily injured, so I wrap him after we jump. Most horses don't need the extra tendon support unless they have been working extra hard (ie showing).

MsHunter
Jan. 5, 2003, 02:58 PM
Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I don't think this is crap, and I don't follow to prevent stocking up. The reason for this ( by the way we don't wrap we poultice and pack feet) is to take away any heat that may have evolved during the workout session and to
protect the horses legs by capturing the heat through either a linament such as alcohol or a nice poultice like uptite.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

AAJumper
Jan. 5, 2003, 03:39 PM
I have to say that I agree with quite a few of your points, Darkerhorse. I don't think that polo wraps offer any support whatsoever (and there have been tests done that support that), I think blanketing is overdone (especially for unclipped non-show horses), and I don't think that standing wraps really help that much (other than to prevent stocking up). Nor do I think that horses have to be spotless...in fact, I think they prefer to be a little dirty. Why else would they find the muddiest spot possible and choose to roll in it?

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

CBoylen
Jan. 5, 2003, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? Why is there any difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a difference, is there?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, personally, I prefer it when my warm horses don't get down and roll as they inevitably will if not tied up. When you do get around to grooming them it's nice to not have to deal with sweat encrusted shavings.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Polos actually do offer support for the leg and tendons, even more than most boots do.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree here. It is entirely possible to overtrain a hunter. They should generally be left to do as comes natural, unless there is something that needs to be corrected. I don't want my hunters flexed or on the bit, I want their noses poked out and almost a loop in the reins.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure on this one, but my trainer does agree that it's a myth.

findeight
Jan. 5, 2003, 03:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc?..........
What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)?
____________________________________________

Don't know, unless it's clean and waiting for a class and you don't want it to roll or rub the braids out...and mine get all the water they want if tied for these reasons.


" Why is there any difference between a horse standing in a stall with no grain and a horse tied up in its stall. There isn't a difference, is there?..."
________________________________________________

Don't get the point here.


"Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees."
________________________________________________

Don't know. I don't. Fancy magazine ads convincing us we need to?


"Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it."
________________________________________________

But keeping the cuts off their legs is not a bad thing...is it?


"Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!"
_________________________________________________
If it's sore we don't ride it. If it's older it may get a little bute,as do most of them when bedded on concrete at the shows. But it's not done on a daily basis at home. They get that sore they are retired or laid up as indicated.


"Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really."
________________________________________________

OH I GET IT. YOU ARE KIDDING HERE!!!!! AREN'T YOU? Sometimes you can get you tongue so firmly in cheek others can't see it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Slow on the uptake due sugar overload.

Point of this sarcastic post is well taken

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

[This message was edited by findeight on Jan. 05, 2003 at 07:14 PM.]

barngirl
Jan. 5, 2003, 05:27 PM
I am not going to get into most of the ponts as i think some are just silly... especially after Janet so clearly refuted many of them. I also think that it is very important to groom a horse... I am embarrassed to go into a ring even at home with shavings in the tail and mud on haunches. Yes one only needs to clean the saddle and girth and girth area... but by cleaning my whole horse I know what is normal what is not. I think it is the sign of a true horse person to know every inch of their horse. It also allows you to bond with your horse and is a really good way to get a handle on their mood for the day. I once got very bored when I was grooming my gelding... he was on stall rest for a muscle tear. And as I often try to do I was checking his mouth for a wolf tooth that hadn't come in and for hooks. I found a weird little cyst type bump... and when I palpated it he got pretty irriated. as it was very near where the bit rest ( more on his cheek than the gum itself I was some what concerned. Everyone laughe at me as they said I was a worry wart, but I had the vet out anyway and he removed a very small but very irratating piece of glass. Everyone teased me and the vet even asked how on earth I had discoverd it.. and I said I was very bored and it was a very thorough grooming session. But I was also a little proud as I had found something that made my horse unhappy and was able to get it taken care of.
Horsemanhip is not about winning ribbons, or force feeding drugs to keep a horse sound... or blanketing to keep that perfect show coat. Those are things that are done as part of our sport sometimes good sometimes abused. True horsemanship is knowing your horse down to the shape of his chestnuts.. Knowing when they are having a good or a bad day and adjusting accordingly. Horsemanship is a relationship with your horse. If you don't have one try it you'll be amazed in the difference it makes in your riding and competeing.
I once had a friend who told me that And I quote.." you act like they[horse] are your best friends", and I replied "I certainly wouldn't want to be on anything other than my best friend when I am jumping a 4ft oxer."
Sorry for rambling...but lack of horsemanship pisses me off!!!

gray17htb
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:00 PM
Gotta agree with you, Barngirl!
Horsemanship IS knowing your horse, inside and out. Good days, and bad. In the showring and in the backyard. Polo's most certainly DO support the tendons. They are not just put on to prevent cuts. Learn to put them on right and they will be the BEST support you can give your horse.

cbv
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:13 PM
I think these are good questions and the answers have been thought provoking. I am in the 'less is more' as far as wrapping, grooming, and, intellectually, I am also for less blanketing, however, my intellect doesn't always prevail, and I am sure mine wear sheets and blankets more than is necessary.

I agree with Weatherford on the role of fitness in general soundness, and with Janet that masking pain can mask problems, but am not against all use of drugs...just think their use takes careful thought and evaluation along with your vet. I think exposing horses to as much as possible, all in moderation, when they are young but physically capable of it, is best. There are just so many opinions on when that last caveat, 'physically capable of it', occurs.

I also think that none of the practices mentioned, in and of themselves, makes a 'good horseperson'. But if folks are thinking about these things, evaluating their situation based on their own individual experiences with their own horses, mixing in the advice of those more experienced than themselves...and then trying to make decisions that are in the best interest of themselves and their horses...they are working toward becoming a good horseperson.

Blankets/no blankets, spotless/ not spotless, minimum wrapping/lots of wrapping, 24 hour turnout/minimum turnout, ...there are lots of opinions at each extreme and everywhere in between...from horse folks with a lot more training and experience than me. I wish there were always a cut and dried answer that would ensure perfect health and safety for my guys. But there are always decisions to make and there are more often than not trade-offs with each, and in many cases it takes alot of trial and error to find what is right for any one individual horse, much less a whole barn full of them.

Often it seems we are so hard on each other...if one does not manage their beasts a certain way they are 'not horsemen or women'. I think as long as you are thinking about it and asking questions and trying to learn you are on the right road...and it is a very long road indeed.

.

[This message was edited by cbv on Jan. 05, 2003 at 09:37 PM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Jan. 05, 2003 at 09:42 PM.]

Showpony
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:

[QUOTE] Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably because WE would be cold, and we are anthropomorphizing.[QUOTE]

Excellent point!

Awkremmit!
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I wish like hell there were always a cut and dried answer that would ensure perfect health and safety for my guys. But there are always decisions to make and there are more often than not trade-offs with each, and in many cases it takes alot of trial and error to find what is right for any one individual horse, much less a whole barn full of them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Totally agree!
Just go to little fun show things so not at all on the level of so many on this forum, but STILL want the best HEALTH care for the guys!

I appreciate the different outlooks.
Barngirl, I do agree with just about everything But... gotta say - I work full time, take a grad class each semester and have 5 guys at home to take care of and yes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif an awful lot of the time, I just 'clear a place for a saddle'.

I self justify that we all are better off with more time to work/then a trail ride, than looking good while doing it.

LOL this may be an age thing.....you know how people get lax about 'looks' as they age!

*In Your Dreams*
Jan. 5, 2003, 06:44 PM
I don't think any of us here could sum up good horsemanship in a nutshell. It all depends on the horse you are working with and what kind of riding you do. I find some things totally unnessesary when others find them vital. It is just opinion.

~Andrea and Dream~
*Challenge Everything*

lula
Jan. 5, 2003, 07:46 PM
Well Darkhorse, are u still bored? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Granted, we can always learn something new, but the topics do get redundant. What's true is that we are all horse crazy and it gives us great pleasure to worry,primp, and preen over our horses.
Are we blinded by Dover & Stateline catalogs, most defenitely yes.
One thing, and I can't resist, in the defense of polo wraps- way back in the day of my youth, I wrapped my own legs in Polo's since we were unable to afford chaps. It was like wearing calf chaps,only better. So, when people say that Polo's give no support, I tell them to put it to the test and wrap their own legs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Policy of Truth
Jan. 5, 2003, 08:42 PM
LULA! I did the same thing a few days ago when I forgot to bring my half-chaps to the barn!

I wrapped my lower legs and boy did I feel totally supported!

As to the blanketing issue: I've always been taught that if the horse grows a good coat AND is left outside, then it is ok to NOT blanket; however if the horse either has a lack of coat or is stabled, it MUST be blanketed.

The reasoning is that a horse that can move freely can warm him/hersef up; a horse who is bound to a stall cannot warm himself up, so a blanket adds to his warmth.

Also, in my case, Cammie is still ribby from the track and I want her FAT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. If I blanket her, I know she will be less likely to utilize any fat she is gaining for generating warmth. Also, she seems to really hate the cold, and I know she hates the rain! Luckyduck said she always came to the gate the minute it started raining! I feel as if I'd be ignoring her needs if I didn't blanket/stable her.

Now, here is a question: I only blanket her on really cold days (no, 60 degrees is NOT cold in my book!). What temps do you guys think is good for blanketing?

Atypical
Jan. 5, 2003, 11:17 PM
Wow DH, this was certainly an interesting post. I do hope that Findeight is right and you ahve tongue firmly implanted in cheek. Okay, the polos thing, and exactly what's so bad about preventing nicks and cuts? not to mention I do feel that polos offer some support. (I'm with the others ahveing wrapped my own legs)

Grooming: Yes, while I certainly don't think my horse needs to be spotless every time he goes out I find grooming a good way to check him over before I get on. IS he backsore, any minor cuts or heat? Also to keep sores from being rubbed under my tack. Not to mention he enjoys being groomed and I can spend more time with him.

As for the dressage question I think it's more complicated then you're making it. Basic dressage teaches the horse self carriage, how to use it's back, etc. A horse that uses it's back, and can carry itself well, tracking through behind etc, in MHO more likely to jump well. Personally I like that my horse can shorten/lengthen his stride (basic collection) as I ask. Makes it much easier to deal with that tricky distacne should it ever come up. ON the other hand, I do believe one can make a horse ring sour with overtraining etc.

The alst point I would make is that it would greatly concern me to ride a horse that was in need of constant pain medication. Isn't that just the glossing over of what could potentially be or end up being a more serious problem? Someone made the good point that pain lets one know that one is hurt and one would probably avoid doing something else that would hurt themselves further. I wouldn't want my horse to feel fine, though he wasn't, then do something stupid and hrt himself badly.

farfel
Jan. 6, 2003, 12:02 AM
I think it's good to stand back and question traditional practices once in a while.

It helps us prioritize things that really benefit the horse vs. things that we (perhaps unknowingly) continue to do in the name of fashion or convention. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have a question: other than looking bad and indicating that your horse needs more turnout to improve his circulation (or maybe that he's just getting up there in age), what is the inherent evil of stocking up? Does stocking up, in and of itself, cause harm?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Flash44
Jan. 6, 2003, 06:52 AM
Darkerhorse, you are not discussing horsemanship, you are discussing blindly following practices without bothering to find out why something is done. Some of the things you mention actually puzzle me, and I don't follow those practices. Horsemanship is ignoring the "pointless crap" and doing what is best for the horse at all times.

Grooming: Promotes a healthy (note I did not say clean) coat and skin condition. Your curry comb will also do a little massage on the large muscle groups if you are using elbow grease. You also have the opportunity to go over every inch of the horse and check for changes, bumps, cuts, scrapes, etc.

Why would anyone put a warm horse in a stall????? I don't get this at all. And he should be watered off gradually, not "cooled out" and then offerred a full bucket of water.

Medicating - Pain means something is wrong. Identify the problem, FIX IT, then ride.

Standing bandages - If you just hack, don't bother. If you work the horse hard, the horse should be turned out (if you have a choice) or bandaged. And just because you only see front bandages on a horse does not mean the rider didn't rub knees, hocks, stifles, and hind ankles with liniment. And mud in the feet is just as important.

Jumping - very hard on front lets. Go ahead and do it every day, and see how sound your horse is in a few years.

Dressage - just plain old training with a fancy french name. If you are putting the horse between your hand and your leg, you are doing dressage.

Many things I do with horses don't have an immediate result, but are done with an eye towards the LONG TERM health and welfare of the horse. He may "survive" a hard summer of showing, but follow that hard summer with a hard winter, and another hard summer (my last junior year, gotta qualify) and see what kind of horse you have left.

Janet
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I wrapped my lower legs and boy did I feel totally supported! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not necessarily a valid analogy.

The human lower leg (which corresponds to the horse's leg above the stifle) is full of muscles as well as tendons, ligamants, etc. Bandages can/do provide support to muscles.

The hors's lower leg is more like your hand. It has few muscles and mostly ligaments, tendons and bone. In general, you can only "support" ligaments and tendons if you bandage in a way which limits the range of motion of the joint

Janet
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And he should be watered off gradually, not "cooled out" and then offerred a full bucket of water. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, the thinking on this has changed, as a result of some experiments that were condicted in preparation for the Atlanta Olympics. It is now condsidered desirable to let the horse drink as much cold water as soon it wants, even while it is still hot and breathing hard.

northcountry
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is now condsidered desirable to let the horse drink as much cold water as soon it wants, even while it is still hot and breathing hard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really?! I'm not sure I could let myself do this -- I've been so programmed that it is wrong wrong wrong to let a hot horse have water. And I'm sure that everyone in the barn would think I had gone nuts!

AAJumper
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
The horse's lower leg is more like your hand. It has few muscles and mostly ligaments, tendons and bone. In general, you can only "support" ligaments and tendons if you bandage in a way which limits the range of motion of the joint<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent analogy. I read an article in Equus a few years ago, where they actually did tests to determine if polos, etc give any support. There was not conclusive evidence to show that they actually gave any support at all.

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

AAJumper
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by northcountry:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is now condsidered desirable to let the horse drink as much cold water as soon it wants, even while it is still hot and breathing hard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really?! I'm not sure I could let myself do this -- I've been so programmed that it is wrong wrong wrong to let a hot horse have water. And I'm sure that everyone in the barn would think I had gone nuts!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we've all been programmed by that scene in Black Beauty....remember when the groom lets him drink too much cold water after he's just come in hot? And he gets sick and the groom gets in big trouble? I distinctly remember that portion of the book! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

Janet
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Really?! I'm not sure I could let myself do this -- I've been so programmed
that it is wrong wrong wrong to let a hot horse have water. And I'm sure that
everyone in the barn would think I had gone nuts! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes , really.

I know there has been at least one article in Equus about it.

And they also showed that another well established "fact" about cooling out horses was wrong. We were all taught not to put cold wateer directly on the "large muscles", but instead to used warmed water, and/or put cold water on areas with lots of blood vessels but no muscles. We were taught that putting cold water on hot muscles would cause tying up.

It turns out this is wrong too, and in fact the best way to cool out a horse is to put ICE water on the whole horse

timedjumpoff
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:32 AM
Well, DarkerHorse, I have to admit this is one time I agree with most of your observations.

And if I may, I'd like to add one more--Why are we all so supplement crazy these days? I'm as guilty as anyone on this matter--sucked in by all the ads and articles (by advertisers?) about the wonders of this supplment or that. I try all the new ones that sound better than the rest but with so many competing products out there, it's virtually impossible to know why one is better than another. Frankly, Im not at all sure the horses go better with them --at least not enough to warrant the substantial monthly expense. Yet I feel guilty if I don't give it to them. What's worse, and I hate to admit it, I've worked in advertising for many years, writing about products for which it would be a gross understatement to say that we stretched the truth. Yet still, I'm the first to fall for the latest hype on any new product, when it concerns my horses.

Re: BLANKETING--it's like when you were a kid and wondered why you had to put on a sweater just because your mother was cold. We learned our lessons about overblanketing from one of our horses who would tear any sheet/blanket to smithereens, the momnent he felt too hot.

Re: PUTTING AWAY HOT HORSES--what ever happended to hot walking horses? I come from the school where you walk your horse by hand until it's cool or turn them out until they are---summer and winter.

Re: STANDING WRAPS--have never wrapped any horse on a regular basis unless there was an injury that required it.

Re: JUMPING GREENIES--my former trainer (foreign cavalry trained) started ALL young/green horses jumping by first teaching them to free lunge in a small ring, and as soon as they learned to stay out on the rail would introduce small jumps and little gymnastics around the circle. Without interference from a rider, they developed confidence, as well as a good eye for distance, making them less dependent on the rider in the long run.

Re: GROOMING--after 4 almost pure white horses,
one tends to relax ones standards about cleanliness.

Re: OVERFLEXED HUNTERS--don't get me started.
What ever happened to the free-flowing galloping stride and relaxed head position of
the real hunters (mostly TB's) who were the standard not so long ago?

playing cards
Jan. 6, 2003, 10:38 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Janet:
The horse's lower leg is more like your hand. It has few muscles and mostly ligaments, tendons and bone. In general, you can only "support" ligaments and tendons if you bandage in a way which limits the range of motion of the joint
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, this may sound weird, but I often wrap my wrists and ankles with ace banadages to reduce pain. It works. I don't know if I have arthritis or what, but when I have these pain flare ups, the only thing that relieves the pain is to "wrap" those areas. So, I guess I see value in wrapping for things other than merely to prevent stocking up. I do not do any extraordinarily stressful activities, so my argument is an average horse that does an average jumping session could feel pain from it if they are prone to it, and standing wraps could be beneficial. Wrapping after hacking seems crazy, and if the horse is in pain from that, then there is something wrong. But for jumping, that seems analogous to a long day shopping for a human, and my feet personally kill after even a few hours shopping. I am not overweight. I suppose the hard part would be to know when horses are really in pain from concussion or old age, and when they are just fine. Sorry not a very thought-organized post.

AAJumper
Jan. 6, 2003, 11:03 AM
Playing cards, I see your point, but when we wrap horses with standing wraps or polos, we aren't really wrapping any of the joints. I also read somewhere that the reason we feel support when we wrap a joint is because it prevents overflexing, which can cause pain. And since we can't effectively wrap a horse's joint with polo wraps and standing wraps, they aren't all the effective. Also, I could be wrong, but it sounds like the wrapping you are doing may be preventing inflammation, which may help relieve pain?

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

JustJump
Jan. 6, 2003, 01:29 PM
&lt;&lt;Is a lot of it Pointless crap with no reason?&gt;&gt;

No, the pointless stuff is actually pointless...the horsemanship part is the body of knowledge that allows us to make good decisions about caring for our animals, making them fit, and keeping them healthy and sound throughout.

playing cards
Jan. 6, 2003, 04:19 PM
AA Jumper I see your point too but I only posted what I did because someone (Janet?) pointed out that the horse's lower leg is more like our hand in that there is very little muscle down there. I guess I see hands, wrists, ankles, etc. similar in that there is little muscle. I know it's not a perfect analogy because one is a joint and one an appendage, but I just meant that wrapping for me reduces pain. I think you are right in that wrapping stops inflammation i.e. pain, but aren't inflammation (pain) and swelling (stocking up) related sometimes?

AAJumper
Jan. 6, 2003, 04:35 PM
It seemed to me that what Janet was saying was that wrapping an appendage with little muscle does not do anything unless you are supporting a joint, which is what you seemed to be talking about (wrist and ankle). When talking about support a polo wrap or a standing wrap gives to a horse, you can't really compare it to what support you may feel by wrapping a human leg or a joint such as elbow, wrist, ankle, etc, since no joints are being supported by a polo wrap.

I agree with you about inflammation and stocking up being related...I should have clarified that I wasn't referring to wrapping for the purpose of reducing stocking up. I do agree that wrapping helps a horse that stocks up, but I don't see the purpose if that isn't the case (i.e. wrapping a horse that doesn't stock up). If there is no inflammation to reduce (as in many cases), why do it? My trainer is a fan of standing wraps after a hard day of jumping, but I just tend to believe it's a bit of overkill. That's just my opinion, of course!

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

playing cards
Jan. 6, 2003, 07:10 PM
Okay I think I wasn't paying close enough attention to Janet's post. BTW I checked out your farms's website - it's gorgeou$!! Can I live in that house on the property?

AAJumper
Jan. 6, 2003, 08:12 PM
Playing cards, I wish I could live in that house! My friend bought the property about 4.5 years ago (it had been foreclosed on). She did a great job of fixing the place up....redid a lot of the inside of the house as well as painting the outside (it was PINK!). She also put in all PVC fencing and added the huge arena. It's a nice place to board!

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

brilyntrip
Jan. 6, 2003, 08:35 PM
I agree with most of your comments .Horses that are not clipped or in serious work even in the northern climes do not need much blanketing.in fact I would say that many horses are over blanketed.I think IMO it is more dangerous to overblanket and have them sweating under those blankets than to under blanket ( they do have their own internal thermostat sort of thing)The perfect temp for a horse is 45 degrees to 60 degrees .All the bandaging issues you are right.Tying them up in stall is very old fashioned like the 1890s ok no more needs to be said here.About the heat on making your horse so hot it might colic again the horse has internal thermostat( I am not sure if that is the right word)so no matter what the external temp is the horses body will adjust to keep his general body temp at about 100 degrees to 101 .For example take your horses temp in very hot day you would be amazed that his temp will be about 100 to 101 degrees.Also when you hav efinished working your horse take temp again it will still be around 100 to 101.The fear of colic while horse has been worked is due I think to horses colicing because their system is moving very fast lots of blood flow in particular in the digetive tract.Colic may come not while horse is still hot but after his system has slowed down.It may be that when digestive tract slows down but has the job of digesting a meal that problems arise.The training issues have been debated well here and I am tired but I think you get my drift hope you can get to sleep soon .Go study it always guarantees immediate sleep.

barngirl
Jan. 6, 2003, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Re:OVERFLEXED HUUNTERS-- don't get me started.
What ever happended to the free-flowing galloping stride and relaxed head position of the real hunters (mostly TB's) who were the standard not so long ago<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it is due to seeing more WB's in the ring.. with their higher set necks, uphill builds and more engaged hindends they are not going to move the same way as a TB, with a lower set neck ( For better breathing when running... as it allowes a straighter line from nostril to lungs.. which is better suited for running..this point was brought up bythe Swedish judge when he was inspecting the mares.)
and less of a tendency to be as uphill as most warmbloods. It is unrealistic to expect a horse that uphill whose neck arch out of its chest at a different angle than a traditional TBred to move around the course the same way that a TB does. I think the judge needs to evaluate the horses way of going, jumping and flow... just because a horse is on the bit has super bascule and effortlessly canters about the course does not make that horse any less a hunter. I think that with more and more wb and wbx's in the hunter ring the days of the free flowing nose poked out hunter is soon to be a thing of the past. Not to say that that type of mover is not as attractive or undesireable, but I think it will be seen less and less. I for one like my Tbrd/hann, reg dutch wb. He is slightly up hill, comes from behind, has a great jump, but with his head set in the local show arenas, he could never win as a hunter. Good thing I like to do jumpers!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 6, 2003, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barngirl:I think the judge needs to evaluate the horses way of going, jumping and flow... just because a horse is on the bit has super bascule and effortlessly canters about the course does not make that horse any less a hunter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The rulebook says light contact with the horses mouth though, right?

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

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Flash44
Jan. 7, 2003, 06:29 AM
Light contact and on the bit are totally different.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 7, 2003, 07:53 AM
Well.....I'm guessing there's rather a lot of tongue stuck in the cheek here, but fwiw, here's my take:

* TYING HORSES IN THE STALL: Agree...why? Cool the horse off properly and put it in its stall with hay and water, or better yet turn it out.

* BLANKETS: I'm on the "that depends" side of this. I have a very thin-skinned OTTB that always has some sort of cover on him - a light/med blanket in winter, a sheet in spring/fall, a fly scrim in summer. Why? Because he plays like a hellion and I can't afford to have the vet stitch up the cuts he'd get. As it is, he comes in with a LOT of cuts, hide scraped off, etc and HUGE rips in the sheets. I'd rather have those sheets ripped than his hide (he lives out, btw).

* POLO WRAPS: The do provide some little bit of support, but I'm not a personal fan -- too easy for them to slip, catch sand/dirt under, etc. For a horse that's worked hard and is being "done up" overnight, maybe. For riding support, I'd rather use a support boot, although those too don't do a whole lot...

* MEDICATING AND RIDING: Unless it's an older horse or one that the VET says "ok to ride with one gram of bute" or for rehab or something, it IS wrong, imo. If the horse can't go sound on its own -- serviceably sound in the case of the older horse maybe - it should be being treated, not masking the pain and riding it. Especially with a show horse, imo. I won't ride a horse with any kind of analgesic in its system except under vet's directions, and even then I tend not to ride the horse but give it more time.

Supplements are another issue -- if they're not analgesic but are therapeutic or supportive, that's fine. Just be careful you aren't giving too much or possibly dangerous ones.

* GROOMING: My horse lives out as it's better for his brain, if not his thin hide. So he is not always groomed to showring shine - in fact, he's only bathed, clipped and such FOR shows. BUT...I do believe that going over and grooming the whole body is important. It helps warm up the horse's muscles (think about massage for humans) and it allows you to notice and check those otherwise hidden cuts and bumps - especially in winter fur. I've noticed any number of tiny puncture wounds that were minor with prompt care but could have literally blown up and become major issues from grooming. So...showring shine isn't necessary, basic hygeine is.

* DRESSAGE FOR HUNTERS: A resounding YES from me - in fact, I'm doing that this winter. Dressage training - in terms of adjustability, quality of gaits, back to front impulsion, produces a horse that is more flexible, better balanced and more elastic between the fences. And it produces a rider who can feel things like balance, bend and impulsion as opposed to the hunter princess hoverers.

* TRAINING TIMELINES: Well, imo you don't jump a horse that isn't confirmed on the flat. Period. If the horse isn't responsive and confident moving between gaits, the addition of a fence won't help. And I don't believe in going from flat only to a 2' fence -- work the horse over poles and raised cavaletti from the time it's steering and able to balance a bit, and you'll instill the idea that we go OVER what's in front of us. Then when the over requires a jumping effort, it's not a shock. You can maybe even lunge over a small crossrail if you're skilled at lunging and your horse does it well. But don't just stick in a fence for a green, unbalanced horse. That's not fair. You can canter over ground poles every day, but jumping each day is a lot of stress and I'd rather have a horse last than train quicker.

So...I think HORSEMANSHIP is far from overrated, and is in fact something we need MORE of. However, I think senseless parroting of things like matching wraps and blankets is not the same thing as horsemanship. Horsemanship is putting the health and welfare of the horse paramount; being vigilant in protecting the animal's wellbeing and doing everything you can to ensure a long, happy and productive life for your critter. How can that be pointless crap?

DarkerHorse
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>* TRAINING TIMELINES: Well, imo you don't jump a horse that isn't confirmed on the flat. Period. If the horse isn't responsive and confident moving between gaits, the addition of a fence won't help. And I don't believe in going from flat only to a 2' fence -- work the horse over poles and raised cavaletti from the time it's steering and able to balance a bit, and you'll instill the idea that we go OVER what's in front of us. Then when the over requires a jumping effort, it's not a shock. You can maybe even lunge over a small crossrail if you're skilled at lunging and your horse does it well. But don't just stick in a fence for a green, unbalanced horse. That's not fair. You can canter over ground poles every day, but jumping each day is a lot of stress and I'd rather have a horse last than train quicker.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why? Horses know how to jump. Lunging a horse over jumps does nothing at all. Not a thing. You can say, oh look at my horse jump pretty, but it won't teach a horse to jump differently. Ground poles are not important. They aren't what the horse is doing when it shows. Sure you want it to be broke and be able to go through a grid or whatever, but WHY do you need ground poles? If you are riding a horse that is quiet and goes foward (not one that is afraid of the jumps from the start) why not jump small jumps? 2' isn't high for ANY horse. ANY horse- broke, unbroke, will jump it if you can steer it up to it really. And won't that get the horse broke faster on the flat because you are being forced to make the horse go to one specific spot- ie stearing and going foward. I've taught little school horses how to jump and they jump 3' or bigger on the first day they have ever jumped, because that's how we decide if we want to keep them or not... Usually the ones that jump well and will just kinda go around will always just jump well and kinda go around...

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

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Flash44
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:26 AM
Ground poles will help a horse to jump better. They seem most useful with a horse that is in a bit of a hurry and not really paying attention to where he is putting his feet, especially in a grid. Or a greener horse that wants to take off from way back there. Especially a ground pole after a jump, a horse will slow down in the air when he has to think about where he is putting his feet after a jump.

As far as jumping goes, I think that is a function of the condition or fitness of the horse. If you have a horse that is fit and use to compensating for the shifting weight of the rider, go ahead and start him over bigger jumps. I would never ever consider taking a green horse that is not fit over anything other than some cavelletti or little X's, and building them up as they get fitter and more balanced. But then again, what do I know? I'm the one with the drug free horse, maybe it's better to get right into it with them and then show them on multiple meds.

ponyjumper4
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:44 AM
Polos: I wrap mine when they haven't been in work for a while and will be having a more extensive work out than they've had in a while, or when the ground/footing is hard--I've seen a difference in one of my ponies when I did that for that particular surface. Polos do offer some support if wrapped correctly. I wrap mine so that they support all the way down to the back of the fetlock and wraps around most of the joint, but still allows complete movement/flexion. That's how I was taught to wrap and my ponies have never had any problems with them nor have I had any problems with them coming off or being too tight--you just have to make sure you're doing it right. Now once you're jumping, it really doesn't do much to absorb shock (also depending on how high). I suffered a high ankle sprain in football practice (flag football) in September and the only reason I was able to make it back as quickly as I did was because I wrapped it and had an ankle brace to support it while it was healing. If your horse ever suffered an injury to a tendon, when slowly bringing it back to work you would realize the importance of a good polo wrapping.

The only time I've used standing wraps is when my ponies were injured and laid up in a stall where they could stock up from leaning on the other legs to rest the injured one, and when I've gone to horse shows where my ponies would be in a stall for several days and not turned out. If I had any jr./a/o or grand prix horses they would be put in standing wraps after an intensive jumping session/show.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses."
~R. Graham

snaver
Jan. 7, 2003, 09:58 AM
Yes, some of the things you mentioned are unreasonable, but there are so many variables involved with these different things that you can't very well pass judgment that they are silly and have no real reasons to back them up.

Just to cite one example, my horse has injured his front suspensories several times in his life, which leaves them more prone to re-injury. Because of this, he is always ridden in polo wraps, for support. I also think that it should be noted that when any of the horses I have ridden knocked their legs, boots and polos were excellent for protecting their legs.

There is a difference between the way humans and horses are built (in case you hadn't already noticed). We have muscle and fat on our arms and legs which do somewhat serve as protection. They do not.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 7, 2003, 10:49 AM
hmmm....some differences of opinion and approach to training here, I think.

&lt;&lt;Why? Horses know how to jump.&gt;&gt;

No, not all of them do. I've seen horses put to a 12" vertical that just knock it over. They need to be TAUGHT to pick their feet up over what's in front of them, and then to do that with consistently more effort. Not all horses, but some.

&lt;&lt;Ground poles are not important. They aren't what the horse is doing when it shows. Sure you want it to be broke and be able to go through a grid or whatever, but WHY do you need ground poles?&gt;&gt;

No, a horse doesn't show by trotting or cantering through ground poles. But those ground poles can TEACH a horse how to adjust it's stride between elements and how to go over something odd on the ground. So, especially when training a greenie, I feel they ARE important. And when training any horse, I think they're a great tool -- you get the sense of pacing (like practicing changes in the air for a bending line/rollback for example) without the pounding of the jumps. And, again, I feel they teach the horse to not balk or shy at something odd in front of them. Heck, you can even use the small decorative flower boxes once they start to get the concept.

&lt;&lt;"2' isn't high for ANY horse. ANY horse- broke, unbroke, will jump it if you can steer it up to it really."&gt;&gt;

Guess you haven't ridden a very looky horse, a stopper, or one that worries or one that thinks "through" instead of "over." All good reasons, imo, to teach over poles and cavaletti first.


&lt;&lt;And won't that get the horse broke faster on the flat because you are being forced to make the horse go to one specific spot- ie stearing and going foward. &gt;&gt;

well...maybe it will make them steer straight, but it won't do beans in my book for a whole lot of OTHER stuff you want, or at least the people I ride with want, to teach the horse on the flat. Things like bending and lateral movement and impulsion from back to front.... That sort of stuff tends to require other kinds of work on the flat to learn properly.

&lt;&lt;I've taught little school horses how to jump and they jump 3' or bigger on the first day they have ever jumped, because that's how we decide if we want to keep them or not... Usually the ones that jump well and will just kinda go around will always just jump well and kinda go around...&gt;&gt;

I'll hope you were free jumping them at 3' their first day? If not, well, we have another word for that. We don't call it jump training, we call that overfacing. Yes, some horses respond just fine to that. But some -- even some who may indeed go on to have oodles of athleticism and talent -- get scared because they don't understand the question posed by the 3' jump (that training/pole stuff again helps here). And when they get scared, depending on the horse, it can be hard to build their confidence back up. We're more interested in building horses with solid skills that can learn to be partners for the long-haul, not in getting them into the ring in six months.

So, I guess a lot of how you approach training depends on the individual horse and your long-term plans for it. Some animals may do well with going right into jumping in a week and showing 3' in three months. I'd wonder how they do in 3 years, though. Others may take six months of quiet flat work and another few months building up through grids and gymnastics before they're confident and ready to go. But that's just mho...

poltroon
Jan. 7, 2003, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
LULA! I did the same thing a few days ago when I forgot to bring my half-chaps to the barn!

I wrapped my lower legs and boy did I feel totally supported!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, though: your lower legs are your horse's gaskins. Wrapping your foot (not ankle) or hand (not wrist) is the equivalent of wrapping a leg. There are no muscles there - only tendons/ligaments.

Something I think about a lot is that wrapping a leg naturally makes it warmer. If you're worried about an injury or inflammation, then you usually want cold, not heat. And this is just as true when you're working the horse - adding heat to the joints and tendons is not beneficial.

mwalshe
Jan. 7, 2003, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
&lt;&lt;Why? Horses know how to jump.&gt;&gt;

No, not all of them do. I've seen horses put to a 12" vertical that just knock it over. They need to be TAUGHT to pick their feet up over what's in front of them, and then to do that with consistently more effort. Not all horses, but some.

&lt;&lt;"2' isn't high for ANY horse. ANY horse- broke, unbroke, will jump it if you can steer it up to it really."&gt;&gt;

Guess you haven't ridden a very looky horse, a stopper, or one that worries or one that thinks "through" instead of "over." All good reasons, imo, to teach over poles and cavaletti first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry gotta disagree here, any horse that has been started well and expected to walk anywhere it's pointed from Day One (including over ground poles, ditches etc.) will most likely pop over a tiny jump, particularly if you're smart and get a lead over it from a friend. 2' is not much. If the horse trusts you and is happy I see no need to wait for confirmation of all gaits, transitions etc. before popping over little fences. Jumping should be made fun not a drill session. Never had problems with that method. LOTS of top trainers start their horses jumping over small solid jumps in a similar fashion. Safer too to start over solid stuff. I wouldn't take a greenie over cavaletti that could potentially roll if he hit them as a first step anyway.

We quite often start trotting over tiny things before the baby has really learned to canter (poles, logs, flowerboxes etc.)

And, honestly, if a horse makes no effort over a 12" rail more than once, I'd sell it as a dressage horse.

barngirl
Jan. 7, 2003, 07:13 PM
DArkerhorse and Flash44.. I guess since i don't do hunters i am not so well versed on the hunter rules... But I still argue that a horse with a higher neck set will not appear to be on as loose in the reins as a horse who has a lower neck set. I also think light contact doesn't necessarily have to mean throw the reins away and ride with flapping loops. Everyone always talks about a loose rein and a loop in the reins for hunters.. but how could one have light contact in that instance. I have a bad habit of taking ahold of my horse as he use to rush his fences. But I now am able to really soften and take a light contact. It dosn't mean that I am letting the reins loop and flap. They may appear less taunt than if I were really taking a hold of the reins, but they will certainly not be loose just because I have lightened the contact. I realize that there are some horses that can and many obviously do go around on the loose rein, noses out. But as more and more warmbloods, especailly European imported WB's enter the hunter ring, I think the look of the hunter is going to change. MOst wb's are not bred to move like the ideal hunter. Thank God more Jumpers!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I didn't mean to be upsetting to anyone, I was just trying to point out something that people might be overlooking.

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2003, 08:39 PM
I think you are all mixing up apples with onions.

Horsemanship is the art of learning to ride a horse!

Part II: Learning to train a horse. The rite of passage is graduation from being a passenger to be a rider. Neither aspect has to do with horse care but respect for the horse.

You learn the correct diagonal to save strain on the horse's back and legs. You learn the right lead so he won't trip himself and fall down. You learn to use the instincts of the horse to get him to do what you ask him to do. He escapes from between your legs into your hand. You place him in the right spot at the right speed so he will jump instead of step over a fence.

Animal Management is a separate issue and as individual as being a mother.

Atypical
Jan. 7, 2003, 10:28 PM
Wow, in my eyes this is just getting worse. Ugh, no, not all horses know how to jump. Some really take to it, some just don't get it. Also, I know of no better way to really mess up a young, perhaps timid greenie by muscling it over a 3' fence. Just because he/she can doesn't mean they should, or that the rider should make them. Horses that are timid look a lot to the rider for guidance, and IMHO you can end up scaring/hurting a greenie when if training had been taken slower, you may have ended up witha nice horse.

I also disagree that free jumping doesn't do anything. I want a horse that thinks, that knows his job. Free jumping helps horses learn to find spot without constant assitance from a rider. Also, poles and gridwork may not be things the horses show in, but are good, important tools for proper training. Working over poles in many cases to get striding, shortening, lengthening, are all actually harder over poles than fences.

And again on the overfelxed hunter thing, I rarely see hunters overflexed. I often see hunters with low head carriage dragging along on their forehand. Working from behind allows for a lightness as it were in the forehand, which frees up the horses shoulder and at least for my horse, has improved his gaits.

And horsemanship isn't useless, useless crap is useless. Horsemanship is something all together different.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 7, 2003, 11:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atypical:
Wow, in my eyes this is just getting worse. Ugh, no, not all horses know how to jump. Some really take to it, some just don't get it. Also, I know of no better way to really mess up a young, perhaps timid greenie by muscling it over a 3' fence. Just because he/she can doesn't mean they should, or that the rider should make them. Horses that are timid look a lot to the rider for guidance, and IMHO you can end up scaring/hurting a greenie when if training had been taken slower, you may have ended up witha nice horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was using an example of how one barn picks out school horses. We get around 30 horses in for mardi gras and keep the ones that jump and are quiet. That means the ones that don't jump the jumps from the start or around the beginning aren't going to stay. That means they need to be tested, and if they aren't crippled or a million years old 3' or so seems to be a good height.

But, I do disagree with what you said. Some will disagree with me- hey, that's a given, right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ? You are giving horses human like qualities which they don't have. Horses don't 'look' to riders for guidance when they are green. I would say a made horse might 'look to a rider' for guidance. A green horse doesn't. If it did, it woudn't be green. And, I don't think a horse ever should stop for any reason, they need to get programed to 'jump when you say jump' (no pun intended).


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I also disagree that free jumping doesn't do anything. I want a horse that thinks, that knows his job. Free jumping helps horses learn to find spot without constant assitance from a rider. Also, poles and gridwork may not be things the horses show in, but are good, important tools for proper training. Working over poles in many cases to get striding, shortening, lengthening, are all actually harder over poles than fences.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait, you aren't understanding what I am trying to say. I used specific examples in my post, but don't get hung up on the details. Why does training a horse to do many many complex things help one bit when they have a simple job. A hunter just has to canter around on the same pace and jump well, right?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And again on the overfelxed hunter thing, I rarely see hunters overflexed. I often see hunters with low head carriage dragging along on their forehand. Working from behind allows for a lightness as it were in the forehand, which frees up the horses shoulder and at least for my horse, has improved his gaits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being flexed has nothing to do with being on the forehand or not. An overflexed horse isn't 'collected,' or whatever the word that is the right one for what I am trying to say http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And horsemanship isn't useless, useless crap is useless. Horsemanship is something all together different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uselesscrap is useless... that is obvious. If 'horsemanship' or whatever is something different, then explain. Please. No one yet has explained what it really means. What is the concrete definition.

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

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Tucked_Away
Jan. 8, 2003, 12:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:Why does training a horse to do many many complex things help one bit when they have a simple job. A hunter just has to canter around on the same pace and jump well, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple. Not the same thing as easy. You seemed plenty keen in the "harsh bits" thread on making things easy -- why not train a horse in such a way (building his confidence, improving his balance, not ignoring pain just because the horse can't feel it, etc.) that his job is going to be easy for him?

redpony
Jan. 8, 2003, 04:08 AM
A story to illustrate some differences in "horsemanship". When we were vacationing in Colorado a few years back, we had the marvelous opportunity to hang with the locals - cowboys from families that had settled the plains. They have a very wormanship attitude toward their horses. We were invited to help bring the cattle down from the pastures at the top of the mountain range. Involved throwing the tack in the back of a pickup and driving five miles to a 1000 acre field to collect our horses. None in sight but when we rattled a bucket of grain, over 100 horses came galloping over the hill straight at us. We culled the horses we wanted by separating and running them into a roped off area. No brushes, no hoofpicks, no cross ties. Just tack up and use the truck tail gate for a mounting block. And off we went taking these trusty guys places I wouldn't ever think of going with my horses. We scrambled up rock slides, galloped over mesas, rode switchbacks trails all the way to the top. The horses were expected to stand still while you mounted and to whoa when you wispered. Most fun I ever had was galloping over the plains and jumping ravines on "Mr Chips" a horse I would have stuffed in the plane to take home. And I did all of this with my arm in a cast up to my armpit.
The day before, "Cecil", our cowboy friend had gone out to his spread to tack his horse up to go catch a few loose cows. When he called his horse and rattled the grain bucket, his horse ignorged him. When he finally caught him, Cecil tied him to the fence, got in his truck and left. I was horrified and asked him how long he intended to leave the horse tied. He said he would probably go back in a few days and the horse would be much more friendly. Please don't flame me for telling this story. I voiced my opinion then, but knew it wouldn't make any difference. We saw some really different attitudes there, and yes I saw a cowboy walk a horse up to the back of a pickup and tell it to jump in and it did. An off they went. I'm certainly not proposing that anyone should use these methods, but it made me realize how much bad behavior we just accept from our horses as "normal" and how hardy they really are.

fleur
Jan. 8, 2003, 07:09 AM
Darkerhorse, yes, a hunter can get by simply by cantering with an even pace and jumping eight jumps in good form consistently. But that horse is not JUST a show hunter (hopefully!). Most if not all show horses are ridden at home as well as at shows, and the things one does when riding at home can seriously influence the relationship between horse and rider.

For instance, say you have a spooky horse and you teach it to move laterally towards things that scare it. Three weeks later, you are on course at a big show. The horse is a fabulous hunter with great movement and wonderful form over fences. Today, though, there is a screaming child by the rail on the approach to the 'out' portion of your line. Your horse shies and drifts to the left. Using your super training method, you gently push him back on track, and he makes his striding down the line, and it looks effortless. A layman wouldn't have noticed a thing, and to the judge, the horse is a perfect hunter - he listens to his rider and has a sensible mind.

Now, pretend that you and your hunter never worked on anything like that, and you know that he is trained to canter around and jump well. What do you do when he (being the unpredictable and irrational animal that he is) spooks at the child? Chances are he'll drift, you'll point him back towards the jump, and he'll either chip or you'll have to shove him to get to the jump long.

Well, I hope that made sense (and I hope someone bothers to read it!).

*EMMA*

DarkerHorse
Jan. 8, 2003, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Emma-:
Now, pretend that you and your hunter never worked on anything like that, and you know that he is trained to canter around and jump well. What do you do when he (being the unpredictable and irrational animal that he is) spooks at the child? Chances are he'll drift, you'll point him back towards the jump, and he'll either chip or you'll have to shove him to get to the jump long.

Well, I hope that made sense (and I hope someone bothers to read it!).

*EMMA*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does make sense. I would just run my horse around in the park until it stoped being spooky, but that's just me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

forums.catchride.com

fleur
Jan. 8, 2003, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
It does make sense. I would just run my horse around in the park until it stoped being spooky, but that's just me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I understand that, but honestly, most horses are not completely bomb-proof and I know plenty of horses who won't even look at the scariest things but spook at the mirror in the ring that they have gone by 1,000+ times. You can't prepare for that other than to be able to guide the horse through it.

*EMMA*

Flash44
Jan. 8, 2003, 08:45 AM
barngirl, I'm not sure why you are lumping me in with Darkerhorse since I am at opposite ends of the pole from him. I don't really think a hunter should go around with loopy reins, but should be gently seeking contact with the rider's hands and moving forward in the bridle. "Most" good hunters I see are not dragging around on their forhands, they are coming from behind, which allows them to jump well.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 8, 2003, 11:03 AM
I have only read page four, so sorry if this has been said by someone already. I'm dead tired and need to nap before reading the rest, but someone said:

"Why does training a horse to do many many complex things help one bit when they have a simple job. A hunter just has to canter around on the same pace and jump well, right?"

I've posted this long, long ago...but I'll say it again. I knew of one quite successful (A-circuit, zone and national awards, etc.) pony rider/trainer pair who didn't know squat about flatwork or much about sophisticated riding or schooling between jumps (one rather expensive pony they brought up from scratch had needed a bit burr to turn--that's how much good flatwork he got), but they produced made pony after pony after pony after pony...

How? By just jump, jump, jump, jump, jumping them around until they learned all they needed to know on their own.

Sorry, folks, but I'm in agreement with the "simple" part for SOME divisions, including ponies and childrens and adult amateurs. It ain't rocket science and horses/ponies ain't stupid, either.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

Flashy Gray
Jan. 8, 2003, 01:12 PM
"Dressage" for hunters

What Janet said. It's called flatwork. Don't know about you, Darkerhorse, but when I am coming off a corner on my hunter toward a broken line, I don't want an unsupple, stiff-jawed, resistent, heavy-on-the-forehand upside down horse with no impulsion behind dragging me through the turn.

And then having said unschooled beast get to the jump in a discombobulated unbalanced canter and put in a dangerous effort. I'll waste my time on "pointless crap" like "dressage"/flatwork in order to ensure that I am jumping a balanced horse that is engaged and listening to me, thank you very much.

I suppose your other points on grooming, turnout, etc. should be taken as merely a reaction to those who treat horses like hothouse flowers, never allowing them time to be dirty or act like horses, etc. I am sure everyone has stories about folks who are a bit overprotective of their animals, with regards to limiting turnout or freaking over a little dirt or jamming them full of questionable supplements or en vogue homeopathic rememdies.

But the bottom line, to me there is no aspect of proper equine management that doesn't have a solid purpose. Good grooming? Promotes overall health, not just for looking nice. Wrapping legs? In some cases an excellent protection and offer some support. Blanketing? I don't clip my horse in the winter (if he grew a heavier coat and sweated a lot I would) but it's been COLD here this winter - why wouldn't I help keep him comfy and gives him some protection?

There are too many ignorant goofballs in this world who don't know squat about proper horse care and are abusive. Therefore, I think it's sort of irresponsible or at least, a waste of time to pick at those who practice good management of the animals we have been entrusted with.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 8, 2003, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
_"Dressage" for hunters_

What Janet said. It's called flatwork. Don't know about you, Darkerhorse, but when I am coming off a corner on my hunter toward a broken line, I don't want an unsupple, stiff-jawed, resistent, heavy-on-the-forehand upside down horse with no impulsion behind dragging me through the turn.

And then having said unschooled beast get to the jump in a discombobulated unbalanced canter and put in a dangerous effort. I'll waste my time on "pointless crap" like "dressage"/flatwork in order to ensure that I am jumping a balanced horse that is engaged and listening to me, thank you very much.

I suppose your other points on grooming, turnout, etc. should be taken as merely a reaction to those who treat horses like hothouse flowers, never allowing them time to be dirty or act like horses, etc. I am sure everyone has stories about folks who are a bit overprotective of their animals, with regards to limiting turnout or freaking over a little dirt or jamming them full of questionable supplements or en vogue homeopathic rememdies.

But the bottom line, to me there is no aspect of proper equine management that doesn't have a solid purpose. Good grooming? Promotes overall health, not just for looking nice. Wrapping legs? In some cases an excellent protection and offer some support. Blanketing? I don't clip my horse in the winter (if he grew a heavier coat and sweated a lot I would) but it's been COLD here this winter - why wouldn't I help keep him comfy and gives him some protection?

There are too many ignorant goofballs in this world who don't know squat about proper horse care and are abusive. Therefore, I think it's sort of irresponsible or at least, a waste of time to pick at those who practice good management of the animals we have been entrusted with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you are understanding anything that I posted. I am questioning what you call 'good management' because some of it just seems pointless. If something doesnt have a point, then why is it 'goodd management?' Because a book tells you so?

As for keeping your horse comfy, how do you know it is more comfy with a blanket on? You don't!

Wrapping? HOW do you KNOW it helps? Obviously it can keep a horse from having its leg swell up, but HOW does it do anything else?

If your horse slows down, speeds up, and stays the same, chances are its more broke than most horses, right? Isn't that what you do with 'impulsion' etc etc etc?


I think you missed the point of my post. Infact, I know you did.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

pajumper
Jan. 8, 2003, 04:21 PM
Forgive me, as I'm just jumping in and reading the last page of the thread.
I just wanted to say to Darkerhorse, that the How & Why is found in correct Horsemanship.
It's not about what you read in a book, or some so-called BNT told you. It's about developing a feel. It's about knowing your animal so well, that you instinctively know when they are uncomfortable, or unhappy, and hopefully how to remedy the situation. That is horsemanship.

Atypical
Jan. 8, 2003, 08:37 PM
I think pajumper puts it very nicely. Horsemanship is a feel.

"Teach a horse to jump when you say jump... green horses don't look to riders." Er, then how exactly does said greenie learn to jump when you say? The rider tells the horse, teaches them.

I may be tired and ouchy and just generally irritable right now, but maybe look at the way you're wording your posts because it seems like an awful lot of smart people aren't understanding you.

Rosalie
Jan. 8, 2003, 09:19 PM
At my barn we polo wrap during lessons, standing wrap if they've jumped hard, and do all the preventative stuff like legend... but boy did i have a wake up call the first time i hunted with my cousin in virginia. in hunts they trot on asphalt when its raining, they gallop up and down hills at breakneck speed. I've been a few times and nobody has fallen off or been injured. The ponies that i hunted belonged to a trainer who never uses polo wraps or standing wraps. she doesn't even use boots. are those ponies EVER lame? NO!!!!! take from that what you will.

Palisades
Jan. 9, 2003, 05:05 AM
Actually, things like impulsion and contact are about more than just having the horse go where you tell it to, and slow down and speed up. It's about HOW the horse does those things- is he balanced? Does he use his back end? When he comes in deep, does he run out, or can he lengthen out in a round frame? You can tell who has done flatwork when you see them show, because those are the people who can react to challenges in the show ring (whether a distraction at the side or a tricky bending line) instead of galloping the snot out of their horse and hoping it stays quiet.

As for all your stable management stuff- yes, there is a point to some of it. I polo when I ride, and I wrap after shows. It supports tendons. Tendons that have had a hard workout that day. Polos, in addition to protecting from bumps and bruising like boots do, provide support for tendons. If you're ever riding in footing that is less than desirable (too deep, as often happens in warmup rings at shows), extra tendon support can protect from things like bows.

I blanket because my horse doesn't grow much of a coat. I blanket because I don't really want him to start growing a wooly-mammoth size coat that's going to make it extremely difficult to keep him clean or cool him out after rides. Most of us blanket INSTEAD of clipping, because it does the same thing if you do it right. If I was turning my horse out all winter, I'd let him go without a blanket. Horses who have to work in the winter are much more comfortable with less hair and a blanket for warmth.

All of your questions seem to center on the idea that you can get by without these things. Yes, you can get by in the hunter ring without flatwork. Yes, you can get by in the barn by ignoring your horse's soundness and drugging them up. But the question shouldn't be whether or not you can get by, but what is best for your horse.

If you want to take shortcuts and "get by", go right ahead. Horsemanship is about putting the horse first, doing whatever is necessary for his welfare, and recognizing that it is important to be more than just a rider. If you don't understand the importance of that, then answers to specific questions (like polos and blanketing) will never make sense.

levremont
Jan. 9, 2003, 05:15 AM
As much as I love fox hunting, yes they trot on asfalt, gallop up and down hills, no boots or raps afterwards...but don't believe that they are never lame...in Virginia around christmas time its like a hunting horse shopping frenzy...because many who are hunted the first part of the season are sore, lame or hurt! True there are horses who hunt for years...as in any other sport...but hunting is very hard on them. ( they don't wear boots because they can catch in brush, get loose, or get stuff under them, and they are not the Field Hunter look)

levremont
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:03 AM
All these points you brought up have been addressed enough by others for me to go into them again...I think that true horsemanship is what makes the differents between a barn with exellent horse care and others...I think horses should be horses ( ie lost of turnout, lots of forage, a balance of work and trail, cross country ect...) at the same time I find my horses are happiest when they are groomed daily and rather pampered...how do I know they are happiest...they perform better, come to the gate when called, and are in general easier to handle than horses who are not "handled" as much. So the grooming, clipping, hand walking, cold hosing, massaging, ground training, even if you do not beieve in the benefits of things we do with them it also gives you the benefit of a horse that knows you better and that you know in and out. All great rider/horse combinations over the years be it in dressage, jumpers, eventing have had a special bond.

Kryswyn
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:15 AM
Sorry if I'm repeating this (skipped pgs 2 & 3 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but polowraps were developed for polo (seems obvious I know) and the biggest thing that happens in polo is not over reaching, or interferring, it's other players smacking YOUR horse's legs with THEIR mallets!

If you look at old polo pictures from the 30's you'll see them wearing boots made of thick felt, and leather covered felt. These offered no support but saved many ponies legs from the wicked mallets.

A polowrap, properly applied with a still elasticized material (as opposed to worn out material) does offer some support as well as protection of the tendon as the 'tail' of the wrap (the 6-8" left hanging as you begin winding it around the leg) is overlaid down the tendon sheath over the 'down' winding and under the 'up' winding.

As to the originial question, "Horsemanship" is knowing the above and knowing when to apply it and when not to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

creseida
Jan. 9, 2003, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc?

What is the point in tying up a 'warm' horse (aka one that is cool enough to drink water)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've only seen this in the dregs of the Quarterhorse world, where they are hell-bent on killing the horse by the time they are 8.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My horse isn't clipped, she rarely shows anymore, but she is still blanketed below 45-50. Why? without it, she shivvers (meaning she IS cold) and she loses weight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It protects from blows, providing a cushion to disperse the impact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you don't know why the horse is sore, then it IS wrong. You don't know if that soreness is just from over exertion, or if the horse is getting ready to blow a suspensory. Once you've identified the source of the pain, then depending upon what that is would determine whether or not the horse should be ridden, hand walked, given a day off, or have a vet called. Quite frankly if a horse is muscle sore, he should have the day off. It means he worked hard the day before.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pain is the body's way of saying "Something is wrong." Until the pain is gone, the horse should not be ridden. There is a lot of truth in the old anecdote:
Patient: "Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this"
Doctor: "Then don't do that."

Riding a sore horse is selfish.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this depends on a person's sense of order. My horse is not immaculately groomed...that is really a lost cause. At the barn where I ride, the horses are not show ring clean until the night before a show. One grey horse is perpetually orange from the iron oxide in the soil. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why don't you ask GM about this. He is a proponent of dressage for horses because it makes them adjustable, responsive and better balanced. You don't want your horse putzing around on his forehand do you? Dressage is French for "Training".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is it possible to overtrain a horse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Honestly, I see this more with people who ride hunters. How many times must you drill your horse over jumps? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If the horse has been ridden on hard ground, especially jumped, one usually puts liniment on under the wraps. Takes the sting out of the bones and tendons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have. Hanoverian stallion dropped over in a dead faint. Scared the s#!t out of me and my trainer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, if you want to scare the horse. The horse needs to be responsive on the flat. If he doesn't know how to adjust his stride on the flat, then how will you adjust it coming into a jump? You won't be able to and the horse will crash and scare itself. Yes, it can happen anyways, but why ask for it? The dressage question also applies here. If the horse isn't supple, balanced and responsive, how do you expect to get it over the fence and understand what you're asking?


Yes, it is all horsemanship. Knowing what is best for each and every horse. They are all individuals, and what works for one may not work for another. Horsemanship is knowing what to try and when and taking the time to get to know the horse.

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

FionaJ
Jan. 9, 2003, 04:52 PM
People have well articulated many of the thoughts that I have had regarding why you do things, but to me, many of the things that you may lump in the category of useless are a matter of pride and taking the time to reflect the genuine care you feel for your horse. I don't see that it is any different than bathing a child and sending it to school in clean clothes--do dirty clothes actually hurt a child? Probably not, but it is what we do because we take pride in ourselves and it shows that we care.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Why do we blanket horses when we are not showing, not going to be bodyclipped anytime soon, and obviously not cold when the temperature outside is 60 degrees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all horses that aren't showing are blanketed. I for one would like to think that after a lifetime of blanketing a retiree on his first winter off wouldn't mind having a blanket on. After all I know for one that around here it has been known to go down to -35 C' at night. A blanket might be a dandy idea.

I can easily justify why horses are blanketed: It reduces coat growth and a horse in heavy training cannot have a heavy coat if they are living outside because they will swaet profusely and have to spend hours inside drying off and will develop a chill in the night if not bone dry when they are put back out.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse: Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to infrom yourself a little more. Polo bandages are made out of fleece, not cotton. Polos offer support and protect horses from the knicks that flat work can cause. They are most important when lateral movements are brought in. For horses who seem to bump themselves on the flat or for green horses who don't knw where their legs are at..polos are wonderful.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bute and similar druga do not completely cure the pain they simply dull it. It helps eep the swelling down and acts kind of like an IBUPROFIN. I think that if a horse is getting stiff and sore you have to look at the big picture. Perhaps its time to retire him?

To put it in prospective since to me this little blurb seems ignorant and malinformed. You don't go get granny from the old folks home, drug her up and take her for a 5 mile sprint on her arthretic knee. Its not done...why? DUH! Its inhumane. When you have injured yourself do you pop some pills and exert the injury to its fullest. NO, because to irratate or push the injured will only make recovery harder.

While we're at it...why don't we forget my Dads shattered hip, lets just pull him out of the hospital and send him on the ski touring trip he was supposed to go on this weekend.

As for the joint injections, I think that it depends entirely on the situation. My mare sprained her hock and spent several months off. Our choices were simple, inject the hocks, bute and ride or turn out for a few months and let the injury heal. Our decision was easy. Their was NO way my horses was going to live off bute, pasture time just wasn't an option and so injections seemed to fit the bill. A week later she 100% sound and a month after showing again. No drug "addictions" and no huge amounts of time off.

fleur
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:18 PM
One thing -- about the blankets, I believe Darkerhorse is only talking about in regions where it doesn't ever drop below 50 degrees F or so. I think everyone agrees that clipped or non-hairy horses that live or spend time outdoors in cold climates definitely need at least the rug to keep them dry, and probably also layers underneath. I love dressing the schoolies up to go play outside http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif of course, it would be nice to live where there is not currently three feet of packed snow in the paddocks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Then the horses could go out in their birthday suits.

*EMMA*

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm..hello a sense of pride. Since this comment was made I am assuming you don't shower, clean yourself, wash your clothes let alone wear anything decent or take any sort of pride in your appearance. The following will bea class in PERSONAL HYGENE 101.

First of all..EWW! Do you have any idea what kind of gross rashes you can develop from not cleaning. Although I hear after a few weeks of not washing your hair goes into a natural cleaning process and gets a more natural oil treatment then u could imagine. Second..do yout not care what anyone thinks, do you not care if your Biology prof can't stand anywhere near you because of the stench. Tell me..how does it feel having a conversation thourhg a mega-phone because no one will get with 100m of you??

Ok, I'll cut the crap and sarcasm. We groom our horses to keep them clean and comfortable, because we have a sense of pride. Because its how we keep them healthy.

Grooming at a show comes in to a whole new light. You are their to show off, yourself as a rider and your horse as a prized show animal. You want the judge to look at you and drool. You want everyone at the show wishing the horse was theirs and most importantly you want to feel good about how the pair of you are turned out.

I suppose someone as unhygenic as yourself wouldn't understand the concept.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your dressage or flat work is the base of your jumping! A horse who is engaged and using himself well will jump better then those with the hind end a mile from the front and his nose in the sky. Note that almost every horse in the Grand Prix jumper ring is also on the bit. They all have lovely rythym and their horses jump the moon. The goal is different but the basics are the same. I think your just looking for something to criticize. On the other hand, look at Ian Millers "Aftershock" that horse looks like it couldn't jump a blade of grass when he comes cantering with his nose poked out but in reality he is so engaged and using himself so well that I can hardly stand it.

So I suppose that having a horse use himself serves 2 purposes: function and looks. One is not the same without the other.

fleur
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:31 PM
Grooming: I know this has been said, but another biggie about grooming is that it really is fabulous for their coats, and if you want that shine like no other at the show, go for extra extra grooming every day rather than show sheen the morning of. Also, as someone said, when you groom you go over every part of the horse, not just the part you sit on or bridle -- at least, I know I do.

*EMMA*

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why wait around to find out if your horse stocks up or not? I am not one for taking risks with something that cost me my life savings. Hav you ever watched the Endurance Phase of a 3-day event. Judging by the uneducated post you made I am guessing not. Wrapping is going to help keep the horse from stocking up and in most cases it is used hand in hand with poultice or a DMSO sweat, maybe some liniment. Wow, you must have winged this thread because most of your information is not accurate.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now in order to prove your theory wrong I want you to work up an immense sweat. I want you on your knees huffing and puffing. *DING* Dinner time. Now go eat and entire meal, I mean just inhale it..you know the way those crazy thing we call horses do. I want it practically coming out of your nose and ears your eating so fast. If your not puking or if you have yet to pass out, either one or both of the following were not done properly.

1) you did too little excercise before the meal
2) you have yet to eat enough

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, once again I am making assumptions. I bet your parents waited till you were 2 and then wham, the sent you to school, taught you 10 languages not to mention got you eating properly with the salad, shrimp, and steak forks, and the 10 different spoons they have at those fancy restaurants. You must be one VERY inteligent human being, in a class of your own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Okay, I'm being rude and sarcastic again. Horses, especially young green ones don't have th capacity mentaly to put all these things together. For them...life goes one step at a time. They learn through repetition, so you want to repeat ONE or TWO things to them continuously so that they can learn to things properly. You can't throw them over a jump, land and blance then back, switch leads and work them on the bit all at the same time. To them this translates into something like. "jump large stick, suck back, trot..oops I mean canter, what you want my nose at my chest???" Where as if you have a proper flat base layed out before you begin jumping they will start to realise to that is always how you carry yourself and that jumps are just speedbumps in your flatwork.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FionaJ:
People have well articulated many of the thoughts that I have had regarding why you do things, but to me, many of the things that you may lump in the category of useless are a matter of pride and taking the time to reflect the genuine care you feel for your horse. I don't see that it is any different than bathing a child and sending it to school in clean clothes--do dirty clothes actually hurt a child? Probably not, but it is what we do because we take pride in ourselves and it shows that we care.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good answer. I guess as long as something doesn't have a negative side effect, if it makes the person doing the task feel good then it has positive benefits, and therefore is important.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse: Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to infrom yourself a little more. Polo bandages are made out of fleece, not cotton. Polos offer support and protect horses from the knicks that flat work can cause. They are most important when lateral movements are brought in. For horses who seem to bump themselves on the flat or for green horses who don't knw where their legs are at..polos are wonderful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You might want to read better next time. My post, that you quoted, says the EXACT same thing that your post says- that is in less words and in a more simple way and without the insult...

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Emma-:
One thing -- about the blankets, I believe Darkerhorse is only talking about in regions where it doesn't ever drop below 50 degrees F or so. I think everyone agrees that clipped or non-hairy horses that live or spend time outdoors in cold climates definitely need at least the rug to keep them dry, and probably also layers underneath. I love dressing the schoolies up to go play outside http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif of course, it would be nice to live where there is not currently three feet of packed snow in the paddocks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Then the horses could go out in their birthday suits.

*EMMA*
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, uh yea, I've only seen snow once.. It was less than an inch and melted. Geeze the whole town was shut down due to ice on winshields.

I really meant why blanket a horse if it isn't cold. Like, the school horses here that have 3" thick hair never get cold or shiver when they don't have blankets on.... Why do the horses that people have turned out for a year or something need blankets if they don't get cold?

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, once again I am making assumptions. I bet your parents waited till you were 2 and then wham, the sent you to school, taught you 10 languages not to mention got you eating properly with the salad, shrimp, and steak forks, and the 10 different spoons they have at those fancy restaurants. You must be one VERY inteligent human being, in a class of your own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Okay, I'm being rude and sarcastic again. Horses, especially young green ones don't have th capacity mentaly to put all these things together. For them...life goes one step at a time. They learn through repetition, so you want to repeat ONE or TWO things to them continuously so that they can learn to things properly. You can't throw them over a jump, land and blance then back, switch leads and work them on the bit all at the same time. To them this translates into something like. "jump large stick, suck back, trot..oops I mean canter, what you want my nose at my chest???" Where as if you have a proper flat base layed out before you begin jumping they will start to realise to that is always how you carry yourself and that jumps are just speedbumps in your flatwork.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Horses know how to naturally jump, canter, trot, walk, etc etc etc. If you have a horse broke enough to speed up, slow down, and guide even a little it can jump small jumps. This is completely different. The tasks that you talked about are complex learned behaviors.

Horses are doing what they do naturally. Kicking a horse instinctively makes it speed up. They will normally go where their head goes. They won't fall down given the choice- so they jump. Switching leads is the same thing- the horse does it or it will be unbalanced and maybe fall.. It is a NATURAL thing for the horse to do.

Green horses don't think of things like you are thinking of them as- or at least I personally don't believe they do. I think after they know a bit they think speed up, slow down, and guide. If a jump comes up the horse will 'peek' at the jump and jump over it. If given the choice it will run out to one side, but if guided straight it will jump.

I dunno. If I am wrong try to explain to me why. Don't just say I am wrong. That is the complaint I had when I started this thread- people just accept things they are given without knowing why they do them.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now in order to prove your theory wrong I want you to work up an immense sweat. I want you on your knees huffing and puffing. *DING* Dinner time. Now go eat and entire meal, I mean just inhale it..you know the way those crazy thing we call horses do. I want it practically coming out of your nose and ears your eating so fast. If your not puking or if you have yet to pass out, either one or both of the following were not done properly.

1) you did too little excercise before the meal
2) you have yet to eat enough

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um.. That doesn't happen. And if it does you need an example, or it is just an assumption.

WHY, medically, will it make a horse colic. If you don't have an answer then you are just defending an idea someone had without even knowing the theroy behind it.. How Sad..

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:05 PM
To your first post directed to me: Without the insult?? Umm..I did not insult you simply stated that I thought you were not properly informed. You said whats the point and I expanded on your "cuts" explanation and went on to explain that not only did you not know what polos were made out of but that the purpose is protection and support.

As for the blanketing..I simply answered in the only way I saw it. I didn't look at everyone location before answering I just took a look outside, saw -20 and wrote...I think that no matter where you live it can't hurt to blanket a horse. I assure you that if they really hated wearing them to the point of discomfort. They wouldn't be wearing them when they came in at night; you would find stray pieces in the field.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now in order to prove your theory wrong I want you to work up an immense sweat. I want you on your knees huffing and puffing. *DING* Dinner time. Now go eat and entire meal, I mean just inhale it..you know the way those crazy thing we call horses do. I want it practically coming out of your nose and ears your eating so fast. If your not puking or if you have yet to pass out, either one or both of the following were not done properly.

1) you did too little excercise before the meal
2) you have yet to eat enough

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, you are making me think you are stupid or just not paying attention. In the post that YOU quoted of mine it said slightly warm. Not about to pass out hot.

Second:

Um.. That doesn't happen. And if it does you need an example, or it is just an assumption.

WHY, medically, will it make a horse colic. If you don't have an answer then you are just defending an idea someone had without even knowing the theroy behind it.. How Sad..

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:07 PM
No medical theories behind my argument just experience. I have watched hot horses be returned to stalls by inexperienced riders and watch them colic. Only once severly but enough to make me a believer. I wasn't joking when I told you to try this though. I can guarantee you that after winning my triathalon and heading for the food tent I felt violently ill.

AAJumper
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
Now in order to prove your theory wrong I want you to work up an immense sweat. I want you on your knees huffing and puffing. *DING* Dinner time. Now go eat and entire meal, I mean just inhale it..you know the way those crazy thing we call horses do. I want it practically coming out of your nose and ears your eating so fast. If your not puking or if you have yet to pass out, either one or both of the following were not done properly.

1) you did too little excercise before the meal
2) you have yet to eat enough

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but it is unlikely that you are going to do that. Why? Because you probably won't feel like stuffing yourself with food at that point. Why would a horse be any different? They are not going to gorge themselves on food in that situation. And generally, the amount of grain that people feed is hardly enough to stuff a horse to the point that they'd get sick.

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Horses know how to naturally jump, canter, trot, walk, etc etc etc. If you have a horse broke enough to speed up, slow down, and guide even a little it can jump small jumps. This is completely different. The tasks that you talked about are complex learned behaviors.

Horses are doing what they do naturally. Kicking a horse instinctively makes it speed up. They will normally go where their head goes. They won't fall down given the choice- so they jump. Switching leads is the same thing- the horse does it or it will be unbalanced and maybe fall.. It is a NATURAL thing for the horse to do.

Green horses don't think of things like you are thinking of them as- or at least I personally don't believe they do. I think after they know a bit they think speed up, slow down, and guide. If a jump comes up the horse will 'peek' at the jump and jump over it. If given the choice it will run out to one side, but if guided straight it will jump.

I dunno. If I am wrong try to explain to me why. Don't just say I am wrong. That is the complaint I had when I started this thread- people just accept things they are given without knowing why they do them.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1)Horses are NOT built to jump, it is an extremely unatural thing for them to do. A green horse cannot stay balanced at any gait with a rider until a few months under saddle, so saying that a horse can jump, canter...etc. is very incorrect. Steering is a huge issue with green horses and you don't want to start jumping when you have a "little guidance" because one run-out due to inexperience on the horses part can cause a HUGE problem down the road.

2)Kicking a horse does NOT naturally make it speed up. A green horse won't understand even the simplest commands and that why ground work is necessary before getting into u/s work. A very green horse will instinctively move towards the pressure. This could be any direction, definetly not always forwards.

Umm, incase you have yet to notice if a horse doesn't want to jump it doesn't fall over it stops...so your little blurb on a horse not wanting to fall over so it jumps is not relevant. As for leads a green horse doesn't have the balance to do lead changes. Thats why a greenie is taught simple changes. Most horses will have to go u/s for a few months before even starting the basic concepts of flying changes.

3)Horses "peek" at jumps? Maybe but not since I've been riding. You talk as if, if a horse is ridden straight it will go straight. Once again, with green horses this is not the case. Greenies are like little worms and that why flat work is so important before jumping. You need to have steering on the flat before you create problems over fences.

Now you speak as though I am following a trend. All the things I have written come from personal experience. I would however love to know how much riding you've done..especially with greenies. The way you talk it make it sound like you've been starting them for years but the information you are giving us is false and mal-informed.

jumpalberta
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
Yeah, but it is unlikely that you are going to do that. Why? Because you probably won't feel like stuffing yourself with food at that point. Why would a horse be any different? They are not going to gorge themselves on food in that situation. And generally, the amount of grain that people feed is hardly enough to stuff a horse to the point that they'd get sick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any horse I have met wouldn't care if it had just run 10 miles or spent the day basking in the sun on a cool day. Food is food and they eat it if its there.

creseida
Jan. 9, 2003, 09:43 PM
I had a reply ready to post, nice and well thought out. But why bother. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif [biting tongue graemlin]

DarkerHorse
Jan. 9, 2003, 10:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
Yeah, but it is unlikely that you are going to do that. Why? Because you probably won't feel like stuffing yourself with food at that point. Why would a horse be any different? They are not going to gorge themselves on food in that situation. And generally, the amount of grain that people feed is hardly enough to stuff a horse to the point that they'd get sick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any horse I have met wouldn't care if it had just run 10 miles or spent the day basking in the sun on a cool day. Food is food and they eat it if its there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you even ever seen one that is so hot it is about to pass out? No? It happens down here sometimes because of the hummidity. They get turned out, run around like idiots, as horses do sometimes- yaknow, and come in really hot. THey don't eat... A lot of the horses quit eating due to the extreme heat and hummidity.

And creseida, get over yourself. I, as pompous and sarcastic as I am, have tried to use facts that can be proven and are generally accepted to prove my point. You haven't. You replied, even though you said why bother.. Guess you did bother...

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

Palisades
Jan. 10, 2003, 05:59 AM
Oh yeah, on the food thing... the problem is less with the heat of the horse, and more with its rate of breathing. Unless a horse is in near-sunstroke conditions in summer, I've never seen one turn down grain when offered. The problem with them eating directly after a hard workout is that their breathing is still elevated. Guess what? The horse's lungs are located directly next to the stomach. When a horse fills its stomach with food, there is less room for the lungs to expand. Breathing becomes difficult, and it can lead to things like heaves.

Good old Pony Club First Aid classes...

fleur
Jan. 10, 2003, 07:16 AM
Darkerhorse -- I think another reason for not feeding a hot horse was given before. It was that when a horse is still warm or hot from a workout there is more blood working in the muscles and not enough to safely digest food. I know I always make sure a horse is not breathing heavier than normal and is cool to the touch before I put him back in his stall where he has access to hay and water. All the schoolies at my barn are withheld grain at meal time if they have been ridden in the past hour or so.

*EMMA*

ride2hounds
Jan. 10, 2003, 09:20 AM
It is interesting to note that George Morris’s opinion of flatwork training differs strongly from yours, DH. In his book, Hunter Seat Equitation, he refers to two aspects of working the horse on the flat: longitudinally and laterally, and goes on to explain why each are important for jumping. Longitudinal training is pace control (slow down, speed up), lengthening and compressing of stride and departures and halts. GM describes pace control as “the rider’s first training obligation”. From there you move onto lateral training. Negotiating turns falls into this category, as does bending, and maintaining straightness. “Repetition of known and proven correct techniques bring results and there are no short cuts”... “Horses in their natural untrained state are not yet in harmony with the rider, nor are they precisely attuned to the rider’s signals. Straightness is impossible; therefore, a good training base is necessary.”

Why would you want to put a horse like this over jumps???

~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~

ride2hounds
Jan. 10, 2003, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I, as pompous and sarcastic as I am, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That about sums it up, doesn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~

jumpalberta
Jan. 10, 2003, 10:44 AM
I think PALISADES, EMMA and RIDE2HOUNDS just gave you the answers you asked for. You asked to be proven wrong and they did just that. I think r2h put it all in perspective with the George Morris quote.

You never answered my question. How much work have oyou done with green horses??? Let alone how much riding have you done?? You original post was very uneducated.

Atypical
Jan. 10, 2003, 10:54 AM
That's a very good point. Though horses may naturally do the things you say DH, they do not naturally do them with a rider on it's back. I've known greenies who didn't know how to balance at all with a rider. Being ridden is a very unnatural thing to do, so proper training for balance and control are essential on the flat before one starts to do more complicated things like jump.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 10, 2003, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
I think PALISADES, EMMA and RIDE2HOUNDS just gave you the answers you asked for. You asked to be proven wrong and they did just that. I think r2h put it all in perspective with the George Morris quote.

You never answered my question. How much work have oyou done with green horses??? Let alone how much riding have you done?? You original post was very uneducated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Let's see. Today we got in a truckload of green horses. I taught 7 of them how to jump today, a few were acatually nice. I dunno, all of my horses really have been green. I broke a horse once kinda- I rode it the first time, but we didn't do much with it after.

I dunno. I've never had any problems with the horses I ride, really. They all just learn to do their job and they act green for a few months then one day it just clicks and they are broke.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 10, 2003, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ride2hounds:
It is interesting to note that George Morris’s opinion of flatwork training differs strongly from yours, DH. In his book, Hunter Seat Equitation, he refers to two aspects of working the horse on the flat: longitudinally and laterally, and goes on to explain why each are important for jumping. Longitudinal training is pace control (slow down, speed up), lengthening and compressing of stride and departures and halts. GM describes pace control as “the rider’s first training obligation”. From there you move onto lateral training. Negotiating turns falls into this category, as does bending, and maintaining straightness. “Repetition of known and proven correct techniques bring results and there are no short cuts”... “Horses in their natural untrained state are not yet in harmony with the rider, nor are they precisely attuned to the rider’s signals. Straightness is impossible; therefore, a good training base is necessary.”

Why would you want to put a horse like this over jumps???

~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why woudn't you? You are training the horse to be broke on the flat by adjusting to jumps and making the horse steer to the jump, and they get tuned to the riders signals. The first comment I made about this in the thread was why do you have to have a 100% broke horse on the flat before you jump.

From the discussion here, I have decided you don't. Sure, you aren't going to overjump a horse and crash it and scare it, but once they walk trot canter and kinda steer they can do little jumps. It will only make them more broke.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 10, 2003, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ride2hounds:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I, as pompous and sarcastic as I am, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That about sums it up, doesn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously, that's why I posted it. But you obviously didn't read the rest of the post...

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

crackerjack
Jan. 10, 2003, 05:40 PM
OK I don't usually post in threads where people are getting a bit snarky, but I felt that I needed to voice my opinion. Maybe its 'cos of the tone of "voice" that DarkerHorse is using (personally I think she/he created this thread to get some people's backs up rather than be a constructive discussion - but thats just what I get from her/his tone of "voice" -but I could be wrong). Anyway, to me Horsemanship is creating an environment where a horse is as healthy, happy and sound as possible. As caretakers of these animals it is our responsibilty to ensure this kind of environment. And doing that, my dear is horsemanship. Horsemanship is not being the hunter princess or the Dressage Queen. Its looking after your horse so he is happy in his work and healthy/sound.

In terms of blanketing, I agree that people do often over blanket - 60 degrees is what? About 10/12 degrees celcius?? Unless the horse is showing, it is probably unneccassary (man I can NEVER spell that word!!) to blanket at that temp because their coat is enough. We do blanket a lot here because it can to -30 celcius and I dare you to stand outside naked in that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
You say its ok to medicate a horse and ride it because it feels no pain. Here is where good horsemanship is important. If you were to damage your leg, take something to mask the pain and continue running/walking on it I'm pretty sure you'd do more damage even to the point of chronic damage. Do you really want to do that to your horse? Is that really responsible? Horsemanship is recognizing and accepting when you shouldn't ride because of an injury and knowing how to fix the problem( either by yourself or with a vet's help)

Grooming is very important... It's not just to get the horse all shiny... when you groom your horse you become more and more familiar with every square inch (or centimetre being Canadian http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) of your horse's body... In that you will know when something is wrong, you will find those cuts (that can become infected if not treated properly), that punture wound,the thrush, that stone that's lodged itself in the hoof... and you can do something about it so the horse stays sound and healthy. For example by grooming my horse I found that he had developed bumps on his withers.... knowing that this is often a symptom of a bad fitting saddle I got my saddle checked and lo and behold yup I need a new one. The current one is waaaay too tight. If i hadn't discovered them I would of continued using my saddle and my horse would not be comfortable being ridden. Like someone else said ( I think?... this thread is getting long...)grooming helps you to bond with your horse - you get to know them psychologically/emotionally and there individual personalities - this too is important for recognizing if your horse is feeling under the weather.

Another aspect of good horsemanship, I guess is the riding aspect. But in my opinion if you don't ride but still look after horses responsibly and knowledgably you can still be a good horseman. But anyway on to the traing and dressage.... (man I feel like I'm writing a freak'in school essay and I havn't been in school for 10 years... hee hee hee) Training is important. The basics off ALL discplines ( I guess not racing though) is dressage.... I'm NOT talking about piaffes and pirouettes... but the basics.... the logitudinal and lateral work.... WHY??? Two related reasons. CONTROL (not the aggressive holding the horses face/too tight a rein attempt for control) and SAFETY. If your horse has the basics it will stop when you say, it will turn when you ask, it will slow down, speed up and move sideways when you want it to. Any flatwork is dressage whether you want to admit it or not (maybe not perfect dressage, but a vague resemblance http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) You say that hunters just go around a course without changing pace.... Hummmm why do they do that??? Hummm I wonder...... In nature they certianly don't gallop across a field in a nice huntery canter... its called a whole load of flatwork (ohhhhh that dressage again...)to teach them to canter that way, not suddenly speed up before or after a fence, which, greenies do ....ALOT. You also figure that you should jump a horse for a month when its a greenie and it will learn to be a balanced, rhythmic, willing hunter/jumper.... Well there's something called ring sour and thats what you are going to get if you do that. Maybe some horses could handle that, but personally mentally the horse would wear out and start refusing before too long. That too is why you need to take it slow with babies.... plus they don't have the attention span - they need variety. There's even more point I can think of but this post is already too too long! The quick fixes (constant (use of chambons, draw reins and the like) are not good examples of horsemanship - just oportunities to create bad habits in both horse and rider... which equals more problems down the line...

Dressage ( or can we say ...flatwork)is important for jumping too... oh there's that control again... if you want your horse to take off where you want, when you want and with the sort of pace you want. I think this is a lot better than careening around a course of fences at top speed dangerously missing out strides. When you have a sense of control i.e your horse responds to your aids... the horse is less likely to become scared over jumps, they trust your judgement and are able to deveope confidence over fences.. This is why flatwork before jumping is so important. That is all I have to say (well I do have a lot of other points but am too tired of typing and I keep forgetting them!!!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) I hope this made sense. The point of this novel is that basic good horsemanship is taking responsibility when riding and looking after your horses so that they they are happy in their work, they are sound and they are healthy. If you are not willing to take that responsiblility, it is questionable whether one should become an owner.....

******************************

I don't know anymore what's a cat & what's just an inanimate object covered in cat hair.

outoftheblue
Jan. 10, 2003, 07:59 PM
About the dressage/flatwork thing. I think it is more than overpossible to overtrain a HUNTER. i THINK a jumper and an equitation horse can be trained (on the flat) on until they are completely broke. However, I've seen good trainers get fabulous hunters who jump AMAZINGLY. Then those trainers train that horse just like they would train all their other equiation and jumper horses and the horses jump gets duller. It stops looking so free going around. Yes a jumper needs to listen at the drop of a hat, no matter what because when you are cantering down to a huge 5' solid verticle you want to know you can whoa or go if it just looks wrong. However a hunter (and I don't mean the field hunters...I mean the hunters you see now-a-days in the show ring) needs to have its own expression. It does need basic training, which I think is obvious. Needs to know that pulling means whoa but hey, I've ridden some that don't even know that. THOSE where the best jumpers I've ever ridden. Hunters need to have their own expression and be completely impressed with every fence they encounter. If you bore them with a lot of jumping or flatwork then get bored and it shows in their jumping style. Now Estrella is very well trained, not overtrained though. She goes on many trail rides and hangs a lot. Have you ever seen the horse look unimpressed? NO....To me thats one of the best hunters in the business, she always looks alert and impressed. If someone bought her who trained her pretty hard I doubt she'd be as good a jumper,I'm pretty sure she would be bored to tears and kind of lethargic looking. I don't know, maybe she would still be stunning, but I've seen one too many FANCY hunters be ruined by being trained on too much (usually if an ok ammie with a load of money buys a PROS horse....it happens)

AAJumper
Jan. 10, 2003, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by outoftheblue:
Now Estrella is very well trained, not overtrained though. She goes on many trail rides and hangs a lot. Have you ever seen the horse look unimpressed? NO....To me thats one of the best hunters in the business, she always looks alert and impressed. If someone bought her who trained her pretty hard I doubt she'd be as good a jumper,I'm pretty sure she would be bored to tears and kind of lethargic looking. I don't know, maybe she would still be stunning, but I've seen one too many FANCY hunters be ruined by being trained on too much (usually if an ok ammie with a load of money buys a PROS horse....it happens)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but Estrella was trained quite a bit on the flat when she was younger...I know, because my trainer trained her from a 3 year old through her 1st year green year. My trainer is a big fan of flatwork...not drilling them into the ground, but good solid work, including lateral work. I remember one day when her friend (who used to train) had her work Estrella on the flat at the walk for like a half hour at least. Now, she also would take her on trail rides once in a while, but she didn't let her just hack around on a loose rein in the ring when she worked her.

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

*In Your Dreams*
Jan. 10, 2003, 09:18 PM
On The Issue Of Giving A Horse A Pain Masking Drug and Riding It. I would never ride Dream if he had to be on pain killers. I know from my own personal experience that that can really hurt a person or a horse. I was taking aleve during cross country season for what I thought was shin splints. When the drugs wore off, the pain was so intense, I could not walk. I went to the doctor and took a bone scan and it turned out I had a sever stress fracture in my leg, which cracked into a full blown fracture. Now think about what would happen with 1,000 more pounds on that leg. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~Andrea and Dream~
*Challenge Everything*
http://www.geocities.com/eventingdreams/EventingDreams.html?1041827280020

Tucked_Away
Jan. 10, 2003, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
I was taking aleve during cross country season for what I thought was shin splints.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nod. I did the same thing when I was running (though fortunately I didn't suffer the same consequences). An ibuprofen for ouchy shins and a sore knee...didn't hurt myself worse, but it turned out what I really needed was more stretching. And I was mostly a laid-back sort of runner; I know people who've run through problems, with or without meds, and usually had to end up stopping because they simply couldn't do it any longer, usually for a longer time then if they'd backed off a bit in the first place.

Maybe this sort of thinking is part of the problem. We're very unforgiving with ourselves. We run on busted knees, play with splinted fingers or bruised ribs or bad cases of the flu, maybe drug ourselves up to make it bearable. Some degree of toughness is of course required in an athlete -- you have to be able to go out and do your thing even when you're not feeling 100%. But sometimes it strikes me as too much, better to back off, slow down, rest for a day and come back tomorrow...

And maybe that's part of what we're seeing, with people who drug horses to mask pain and continue as usual?

I don't know if that makes any sense outside of my head. I'm rambling tonight.

outoftheblue
Jan. 11, 2003, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
Yes, but Estrella was trained quite a bit on the flat when she was younger...I know, because my trainer trained her from a 3 year old through her 1st year green year. My trainer is a big fan of flatwork...not drilling them into the ground, but good solid work, including lateral work. I remember one day when her friend (who used to train) had her work Estrella on the flat at the walk for like a half hour at least. Now, she also would take her on trail rides once in a while, but she didn't let her just hack around on a loose rein in the ring when she worked her.

visit http://www.victorianfarms.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I know...I didn't state my points very clearly, I was a little tired. There is still a difference between training the hunter so you can ride it. (IE a good flat basis, some lateral work etc) and training your hunter to be your GP horse....I guess basically she was flatted well, but not over done. She has always impressed me, which means your trainer did a good job. (And yes, I knew her in CA) And now, Bucky also does a good flat, I've seen him practicing lateral work and etc...however they did it for it to work, and to get her stretched....they didn't kill her with the flatting and they didn't try to fit her into a style with a WHOLE lot of jumping and overkill on the flat. They let her be a horse, just a fit, stretched well traine horse.

creseida
Jan. 11, 2003, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tucked_Away:



Maybe this sort of thinking is part of the problem. We're very unforgiving with ourselves. We run on busted knees, play with splinted fingers or bruised ribs or bad cases of the flu, maybe drug ourselves up to make it bearable. Some degree of toughness is of course required in an athlete -- you have to be able to go out and do your thing even when you're not feeling 100%. But sometimes it strikes me as too much, better to back off, slow down, rest for a day and come back tomorrow...

And maybe that's part of what we're seeing, with people who drug horses to mask pain and continue as usual?

I don't know if that makes any sense outside of my head. I'm rambling tonight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have a point. But with humans, WE are making a choice as to whether we feel up to doing something or not; with many people, the horse doesn't have ANY choice.

The horse tells us he's sore by limping; it is up to us to address the cause of the pain not mask it. The horse can't tell us, "Oh I just overdid it a bit yesterday. Give me a gram of bute and I'll be fine" just like he can't say, "My foot is a bit sore. I think it might be the start of something serious. It doesn't hurt too bad right now but I need time off to rest it before doing anything else." Both limps may look the same, but unlike some people, I personally would choose to give the horse a gram of bute AND time off to see what happens. After a period of rest, re-evaluate and see if a vet call is warranted, or if it was just over exertion.

But to just cram bute down a horse's throat indescriminately so that one can continue to ride is selfish and a demonstration of POOR horsemanship, IMO.

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

jumpalberta
Jan. 11, 2003, 10:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Let's see. Today we got in a truckload of green horses. I taught 7 of them how to jump today, a few were acatually nice. I dunno, all of my horses really have been green. I broke a horse once kinda- I rode it the first time, but we didn't do much with it after.

I dunno. I've never had any problems with the horses I ride, really. They all just learn to do their job and they act green for a few months then one day it just clicks and they are broke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your horses arrive in trucks? More then 7 at a time?...fascinating! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Last time I checked you cannot teach a horse to jump in one day.

This will be the last of my replies in this thread. You have constantly been given VERY justified answers to your questions and keep shutting them down with uneducated responses. This just goes to show your entire point when posting. This was not to get peoples educated answers but simply to create conflict. To me it is extremely clear that you are not only telling stories about the "truckloads" of horses you are training but that you have the exprience you say you do.

Could I please get the e-mail address of the barn you ride out of. I would very much like to talk to the trainer and approach her about her training methods. Not to attack her but to ask her how I could go about using some of her methods. If things are as easy as you say they are then we should all be teaching greenies like you do..

Thanx for wasting everyones time. And I sincerely hope that others will accept this thread as a hopeless and pointless cause started by someone who couldn't act a little more mature. You are 18 are you not...I would expect this from a 12 year old. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 11, 2003, 11:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by creseida:
But to just cram bute down a horse's throat indescriminately so that one can continue to ride is selfish and a demonstration of POOR horsemanship, IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh, come on.

Bute is a NSAID. It will NOT take away all pain. It is NOT a pain killer. It is a non steroid anti inflamitory.

No horse is 100% sound, just like no human is 100% sound.

Why let your horse be in minor pain when you are at a show and want its best? It swelling is reduced and pain is lessened with 2 bute pills or some banamine, how is it wrong?? Seriously. If it limps it will still limp with bute. If it has minor aches like ALL horses have or will have, then WHY is it wrong?


IT IS NOT cruel. Give NSAIDS at shows or not - it doesnt matter, it is your choice.

But, don't call it cruel. I feel it is much nicer to the horse to get some 'advil' at a shown when it is working extra hard for many days in a row. It is much nicer to an older horse that would be used anyway to be on long term bute. I know at some barns if a school horse gets too lame they would just send it to the killers. I would rather give the horse some bute and let it live at pasture a bit more comfy.

It sounds very PETA to be so against medicating horses. What about nerving a horse? Would you put one down or nerve it? I've seen them so lame they almost need to be put down and it is fixed by nerving. What about in that situation? It is similar...

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

[This message was edited by Darkerhorse on Jan. 12, 2003 at 02:50 AM.]

DarkerHorse
Jan. 11, 2003, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
Your horses arrive in trucks? More then 7 at a time?...fascinating! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and sometimes 12 at a time.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Last time I checked you cannot teach a horse to jump in one day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proved you wrong about 30 times this year... Wait, acatually, horses don't need to be taught, they aleady know how to jump.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This will be the last of my replies in this thread.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, right...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You have constantly been given VERY justified answers to your questions and keep shutting them down with uneducated responses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, but they are not very justified. I pointed out ways that I could refute them and asked for them to be proven against my alternative idea. Then, I got bitchy little responses from you. I'm glad though, you have been fun.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This just goes to show your entire point when posting. This was not to get peoples educated answers but simply to create conflict.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Putting words in my mouth, are we know? It wasn't started out for that reason. It still isn't. People like you got carried away and screamed abuse, blah, blah. I had a real point when I posted this. . .

Oh, and Sweetie, It takes to for a conflict to happen. One cannot create conflict
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
To me it is extremely clear that you are not only telling stories about the "truckloads" of horses you are training but that you have the exprience you say you do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eat your words. The barn where I keep my horses supplies ALL horses for mardi gras in new orleans. That means we have to buy 40 or so new horses every mardi gras season. And, I'm sure you are fabulous with your .. nevermind I will stop myself on this one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Could I please get the e-mail address of the barn you ride out of. I would very much like to talk to the trainer and approach her about her training methods. Not to attack her but to ask her how I could go about using some of her methods.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you want to throw firecrackers at your horse, you can train just like her. It is a saddlehorse barn... Heh...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If things are as easy as you say they are then we should all be teaching greenies like you do..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That word. Greenies. It annoys me. It is ugly to look at. Anyway,

just how do I train green horses? Have I said how *I* do it? Did I really say anything other than question how you do things? I said how I train 'school horses' that we get for mardi gras... But that is completely different from a real horse, well in a way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thanx for wasting everyones time. And I sincerely hope that others will accept this thread as a hopeless and pointless cause started by someone who couldn't act a little more mature. You are 18 are you not...I would expect this from a 12 year old. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU ARE SO just.. I don't know. Dumb? I have a DIFFERENCE IN OPINION than you do. That doesn't make the thread worthless or make me immature. You say I am trying to make conflict, but you helped initiate conflict. I hope you are book smart, because you obviously are not ready to encounter people with very different points of view than yourself....

I have brought up interesting points to be debated, you acted like an uninformed bitch who was sure I am abusing my horses. FYI- I'm not.

I have proof the things I do work- my horses.

Your 'horse' has a running martingale on fairly tight in the picture in your profile. You know that when they are that tight, they work like draw reins, right? That's what the saddlehorse people do when they are using a 'work bridle' - 2 reins, one through a running martingale like a draw rein. I bet you didn't know that, did you.

Yes, we get truckloads of horses in for Mardi Gras. 30-40 is the number they buy per year from the auctions. They all jump on the first day they come- most are only trail broke. You point at the jump and kick. The horse jumps the jump. If it doens't look like it is about to kill itself, we raise it! If we like it, we keep it. The only horses that WON'T jump are the crippled ones that are ancient and just walk or the ones that aren't broke yet...

I have not recieved responses in this thread that uphold their point of view against ALL of my arguements. Basically everyone got offended and thinks I don't grooom my horses and jump them everyday when they are 2. Did I ever say that? No.

Horses CAN learn to jump in one day. Infact, they ALREADY know how to jump naturally. Geeze.

I am also flattered that you know my age off hand, It really makes me feel special when people are that interested. Thanks.

I was questioning conventional methods of doing things.

.....There is no harm in that, only stupid people don't question why they do something. Are you a stupid person?? I have my answer to that question, but I won't write it here. I will leave that for you to decide.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

creseida
Jan. 12, 2003, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

Oh, come on.

Bute is a NSAID. It will NOT take away all pain. It is NOT a pain killer. It is a non steroid anti inflamitory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pain is a response to inflammation, which is a response to an injury.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why let your horse be in minor pain when you are at a show and want its best? It swelling is reduced and pain is lessened with 2 bute pills or some banamine, how is it wrong?? Seriously. If it limps it will still limp with bute. If it has minor aches like ALL horses have or will have, then WHY is it wrong?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problem giving the horse bute for its pain. I have a problem giving a horse bute for its pain and then making it work. That IS cruel.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It sounds very PETA to be so against medicating horses. What about nerving a horse? Would you put one down or nerve it? I've seen them so lame they almost need to be put down and it is fixed by nerving. What about in that situation? It is similar...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, Richard, you did not read my post, except for the parts you chose to read. My problem is making an unsound horse work. I am NOT against making a horse comfortable. I have no problem with nerving. But if a horse has such a severe physical ailment that it requires nerving, then the horse should not be worked AT ALL. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

AAJumper
Jan. 12, 2003, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by creseida:
But if a horse has such a severe physical ailment that it requires nerving, then the horse should not be worked AT ALL. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with that. I've known horses that have been nerved and they've gone on to live productive, happy lives. Just ask people on this BB. Would you rather see the horse dead? Because not a lot of people cannot afford to keep a pasture ornament around. If nerving prevents a horse from feeling pain, then what is wrong with eliminating that pain and allowing the horse to do what he's always done?

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

BarbB
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Let's see. Today we got in a truckload of green horses. I taught 7 of them how to jump today, a few were acatually nice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'm impressed! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

BarbB



.

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

BarbB
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:36 AM
Darkhorse,
it's probably time to come out and say that you were just trying to get a rise out of everyone and stir a little......you ARE kidding, right?
...http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

ideayoda
Jan. 12, 2003, 11:00 AM
First, horsemanship is not pointless crap, but is rather rules of thumb which allow for long term soundness and future trainability of the horse. There are many things which are accepted as horsemanship which are not based on fact. That is where real knowledge and education and the 'whys' of things come into play.

As to whether a horse can be taught things like jumping, lack of response to stimuli (ie fire crackers) in one day? Sure....but is THAT horsemanship. Will it contribute to the long term soundness etc of the horse? No in most situations. Horses will accept many things, but do those horses go on in their training. In preparing masses of horses for anything (ie mardi gras/war/pulling wagons) they are call be trained to 'accept/endure' by a talented rider who can simply process them....but what about what they do in future? That is rarely thought about...and THAT is horsemanship...to think about all the implications and try not to treat horses as disposable items.

I.D.E.A. yoda

ride2hounds
Jan. 12, 2003, 11:02 AM
There is a huge difference between pointing a horse at an obstacle, and whipping and spurring it to go over the obstacle, and properly teaching the horse to go over the obstacle. Anyone who says they have taught a horse to jump in one day (much less 7) obviously does not know what they are talking about.

Considering that the majority of the posters on this board disagree with Darker Horse's philosophy, I wonder if it has ever occurred to this "pompous and arrogant" [his words] person that he might reconsider some of his "training" methods?

Bit them up instead of teaching them;
Bute them up and ride them sore;
Saddle fit...why bother;
Flat work is a waste of time,
"I taught 7 horses how to jump today".

Doesn't sound like training or horsemanship to me. Sounds a lot like someone who is either a troll, a know it all teenager (who obviously doesn't) or someone who lives in a delusional state of mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Possibly all three.

Jennasis
Jan. 12, 2003, 12:50 PM
I agree that some owners needlessly pamper their horses. I see too many people blanketing thei horses because the people feel cold and then feel that the horse must ALSO be cold. I see people who wrap and poultice WAY too often...feed too many supplements and are too worried about nicks and scrapes to turn their horses out.

That being said...grooming is not needless crap, and neither is investing in quality time and training. Quick fixes are just that...band-aid solutions that do not address underlying problems.

Whomever suggested that they were able to "train" 7 green horses to jump in one day is deluded. SERIOUSLY. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"All Hail President Kang!"

..."Don't look at me...I voted for Kodos..."

Tucked_Away
Jan. 12, 2003, 03:18 PM
Quoth creseida:

&gt;But with humans, WE are making a choice as to whether we feel up to doing something or not; with many people, the horse doesn't have ANY choice.

I do agree with this. My post was a musing on why some people might think differently. Just wanted to make that clear if it wasn't.

Quoth Darkerhorse:

Maybe I'm wasting my breath, but the questions that follow are seriously meant.

&gt;The barn where I keep my horses supplies ALL horses for mardi gras in new orleans. That means we have to buy 40 or so new horses every mardi gras season.

Hmm. Forty new horses every season? What happens to the ones you got last year, and the year before that? If you're not keeping them around, how could you possibly know whether your "methods" work over the long term?

&gt;You point at the jump and kick. The horse jumps the jump. If it doens't look like it is about to kill itself, we raise it! If we like it, we keep it. The only horses that WON'T jump are the crippled ones that are ancient and just walk or the ones that aren't broke yet...

So what's your defintion of knowing how to jump? If what you mean is that you can kick a horse up to a jump and he'll get to the other side, then yeah, I can believe you're getting that done in a day. But if that's the case, then what you're missing is that this horse doesn't know how to jump in any useful sense. You may be teaching it how to save its neck, but I think most of us want more than that from and for our horses.

This is the same argument as the one over dressage for hunters. You seem to be seeing everything you do with the horse as an end in and of itself. That's fine and even good in many ways -- if someone can't do that even a little bit, they're going to be frustrated and unsatisfied both. But the rest of us are also looking at what we did yesterday and what we're doing today as a foundation for what we'll do tomorrow.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 03:45 PM
How do I explain what I tried to say..

...We got 7 horses in the first load of mardi gras horses. They were 15hh 'trail' broke horses who were quiet. You trot them up to a jump, the first time they might look so you kick, and then they 'know' how to jump. Well, the good ones anyway. We had one that jumped 3' today and it is fairly green. It about jumped me off it jumped so well. It hasn't ever stopped yet or tried to, even on the first jump. We knew where the horse came from and it had ONLY done trails, so it never had any acatual ring jumping experience. If the horse jumps badly or is unbroke of course you cant just jumps like the way I did with thee horse I talked about above.

Today we got the nicest mardi gras horse we ever have gotten. It is a 17hh off the track TB. It is pretty quiet, but not ready to jump.It doesn't really know what leg means yet, and if a horse doesn't know how to go foward on que, it won't jump jumps or won't jump well. In a few weeks it should be broke enough to jump a few singles.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ideayoda:
First, horsemanship is not pointless crap, but is rather rules of thumb which allow for long term soundness and future trainability of the horse. There are many things which are accepted as horsemanship which are not based on fact. That is where real knowledge and education and the 'whys' of things come into play.

As to whether a horse can be taught things like jumping, lack of response to stimuli (ie fire crackers) in one day? Sure....but is THAT horsemanship. Will it contribute to the long term soundness etc of the horse? No in most situations. Horses will accept many things, but do those horses go on in their training. In preparing masses of horses for anything (ie mardi gras/war/pulling wagons) they are call be trained to 'accept/endure' by a talented rider who can simply process them....but what about what they do in future? That is rarely thought about...and THAT is horsemanship...to think about all the implications and try not to treat horses as disposable items.

I.D.E.A. yoda<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The fire cracker thing was a joke... It is a saddle horse barn and sometimess they do fireworks to make the horses 'look at them' or something. I'm not really sure.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

Is there any reason in polowrapping besides keeping cuts off a horses legs? A piece of cotton can't do much, I mean really- think about it.

Why do some people feel that medicating a horse and riding it is wrong? They claim it isn't fair to ride a slightly sore horse on bute or inject its joints. If the horse doesn't feel minor pains, it doesn't know its in pain! What's the difference to the horse between riding it sound or riding it on 5cc (1 pill or gram) of bute? It won't know!

Grooming- yea, show horses have to look pretty, but what is the obsession with having spotless horses. You have to upkeep it for a horse to look like a show horse on showdays, but while you are at home why does your horse have to spotless everytime you ride? It doesn't make the horse go differently. It doesn't 'warm up' muscles really.

Dressage. . . Why? Oh, before someone sits on me or something, let me clarify. I mean for hunters, why does a horse need to be 'on the bit' and flexed at the poll? Don't they just need to canter around without changing pace too much and jump well? Is it possible to overtrain a horse?

Standing wraps after a lesson or jumping. I think it is crap unless your horse stocks up. How does it 'take away pain?' It would seem like a horses front feet (aka coffin joints) and hocks would hurt the most. Really, what the hell does it do besides keeping a horse from stocking up?

Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!

Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter? Why do we not jump really green horses. Woudn't it take less time if you jumped little 2'6" jumps everyday for a month when it was green. Instead of taking a long time to get a horse jumping around a course it would learn to steer, jump, canter along, and be quiet all at the same time, right? Well, maybe this one is a bit far fetched, but I bet it could work with some horses.

Uh, thats all I can think of.. I'm finallly sleepy.. Maybe day 4 1/2 of insomnia will close soon becuse I think COTH is putting me to sleep ;P

I'm just....
Sliding through life on charm?

forums.catchride.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not agree with most of what you have said!!!
Polos support the tendons so they don't get pulled of strained.

about riding a horse on bute or soemthing: they say the same thing about people. If you take medicine, who won't feel pain right? So, if you run about, you could be damaging your injury even more, without knowing, because you can't feel it!! I severely sprained my knee, and thats what they told me.

grooming: TOTALLY Necessary! IT brings out the natural oils in their skin to keep their skin healthy! It's about hygene, not looks.

about horses being on the bit and flexed: If a horse is flexed, his back and neck are nice, relaxed, and smooth. This makes him jump better, with more scope, and makes him happier.

about wrapping a horse after jumping: I do this with my horses. Its so their legs are supported and don't have too much strain. If you can do something to help your horse, you should do it. It can be very important. Especially horses with bad joints.

about eating grain when hot: COLIC. Some horses are more sensitive than others! Some may just be slightly hot and eat and get colic. You shouldn't risk a horses life on that.

about jumping green ohrses every day for a month. Can anyone say.... joint problems?!?!? You should NEVER jump a horse that much! ESPECIALLY if its a green horse because usually green horses are young as well, and they can be damaged if worked too much!!!

Don't you think we do these things for reasons? Maybe you shouldn't act like you know better than years and years of knowledge and history.


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lotsospots:
For those of us that truly love our horses, and are concerned about their well-being, it is not useless crap to ensure that they recieve the best treatment necessary - they are not f**cking machines.

________________________
Spot this!!
http://www.thiessenhorses.freeservers.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU! I totally agree! I do everything I can to keep my horses healthy and happy!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:
_"Why do we have so many things which we consider must be done in order to keep a horse alive, sound, jumping, etc?"_

Actually, I want my horses to be healthy, fit, and content - all the time. Not just survive my riding.

_"Training a horse without training a horse. Let me explain. Why do we put all this emphasis on teaching the horse stuff that doesn't matter?" _

There isn't much you can teach a horse that 'doesn't matter.' I want my horses to understand their job, be confident and respond immediately when I ask them to do something.

I have seen lots of horses ruined and broken down by people who think that taking care of a horse and training it are just boring dull work.
Sad for them, sadder for their horses.

I was going to respond to some other points in this post - but why bother?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

BarbB

_...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings_

http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! lol! OK, I'm going to stop agreeing with people, because that will get old really fast hahahaa, but I'm so glad SOME people care about the well being of their horses!!!!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:45 PM
Dense soul that I am, at THIS point I'm going to figure that Darkhorse/Richard is just trolling to stir things up in a boring January...and yes, it took me six pages to really get that (and I DO SO hope I'm right!). I was quite afraid for some time that you were serious...but, well, no real rider could be.

One thing, though, about bute, banamine and other NSAIDs -- they ARE analgesics. That means they DO alleviate/mask pain to a greater/lesser extent. They just do it without the use of steroid-based drugs. So when you give an NSAID you ARE making the horse or human think it's "better." If you then work the horse/human and there is indeed a structural problem (which you are now masking to some degree) you CAN do serious damage.

Just a thought...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:46 PM
Once again someone else proved they don't read my posts well. I was asking you to explain WHY those things were important even though I came up with fairly credible reasons for them not to be. You did nothing but restate that they are important without giving evidence why. Well done.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by timedjumpoff:

Re: OVERFLEXED HUNTERS--don't get me started.
What ever happened to the free-flowing galloping stride and relaxed head position of
the real hunters (mostly TB's) who were the standard not so long ago?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK! my last reply I promise! You work on flkexing to loosen and relax their back and neck muscles, and THEN you let out their head with poked out noses... this keeps them relaxed and smooth with tons of scope! You don't have to have them flexed all the time, just to bring their haunches up and under them and relax their backs and necks!!!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

Why? Horses know how to jump. Lunging a horse over jumps does nothing at all. Not a thing. You can say, oh look at my horse jump pretty, but it won't teach a horse to jump differently. Ground poles are not important. They aren't what the horse is doing when it shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is all you care about shows?!?! That's all your posts seem to be about! About if it has to do with showing!!! MANY things are needed to create a happy, confindent, smooth, horse! Showing is not all that matters!!

I'm sorry, I do, lots of posts, but this is making me angry... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

No, I was using an example of how one barn picks out school horses. We get around 30 horses in for mardi gras and keep the ones that jump and are quiet. That means the ones that don't jump the jumps from the start or around the beginning aren't going to stay.

Horses don't 'look' to riders for guidance when they are green. I would say a made horse might 'look to a rider' for guidance. A green horse doesn't.

Why does training a horse to do many many complex things help one bit when they have a simple job. A hunter just has to canter around on the same pace and jump well, right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHHHHHHHH! ok: here I go again:
\OK about your way of picking horses: Some horses aren't quite confident at first, but can become AMAZING FABULOUS horses with guidence!!!!

About green horses not looking for guidence:
I have a question for you... Do you TRULY know what is going on in a horses head? Have you been there?... DIDN'T think so! Horses have different personalities! Some are confindent, and will jump anything... My older sisters horse once decided he didnt want to stay on the rail, and jumped a pile of standards and rails in the middle of the ring! This pile was 6 ft high and 8 ft wide!!! And my sister is an amazing rider! He just decided that would be fun, and did it!!!
But some horses just aren't that confident! I have seen many green horses unhappy about jumping, and not confident at all! They had to be helped by the riders, and they got much better, with much more confindence! Why do you think you know EXACTLY how all horses work? Are you god?

about having horses just have to canter around and jump... You are oversimplying the work. It's a very complex sport.


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

[This message was edited by PTDeaconHP on Jan. 12, 2003 at 09:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by PTDeaconHP on Jan. 12, 2003 at 09:32 PM.]

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JrHunterLuver:
At my barn we polo wrap during lessons, standing wrap if they've jumped hard, and do all the preventative stuff like legend... but boy did i have a wake up call the first time i hunted with my cousin in virginia. in hunts they trot on asphalt when its raining, they gallop up and down hills at breakneck speed. I've been a few times and nobody has fallen off or been injured. The ponies that i hunted belonged to a trainer who never uses polo wraps or standing wraps. she doesn't even use boots. are those ponies EVER lame? NO!!!!! take from that what you will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They may not be lame now, but they probably won't be happy loittle ponies when they get older


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Grain while a horse is warm: who has ever had a slightly warm (not hot) horse colic from eating their grain? Hell, its so hot down here in summer in the afternoon that I am sure most of the horses are at that 'slightly warm' post riding temp when they get their dinner. They seem to colic more when it gets cold out!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now in order to prove your theory wrong I want you to work up an immense sweat. I want you on your knees huffing and puffing. *DING* Dinner time. Now go eat and entire meal, I mean just inhale it..you know the way those crazy thing we call horses do. I want it practically coming out of your nose and ears your eating so fast. If your not puking or if you have yet to pass out, either one or both of the following were not done properly.

1) you did too little excercise before the meal
2) you have yet to eat enough

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um.. That doesn't happen. And if it does you need an example, or it is just an assumption.

WHY, medically, will it make a horse colic. If you don't have an answer then you are just defending an idea someone had without even knowing the theroy behind it.. How Sad..

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's becuase horses can't throw up DH, we all know this. What she was saying is that YOU would throw up and feel like crap... However, they can't throw up, so they would get colic and possibly die.


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Have you even ever seen one that is so hot it is about to pass out? No? It happens down here sometimes because of the hummidity. They get turned out, run around like idiots, as horses do sometimes- yaknow, and come in really hot. THey don't eat... A lot of the horses quit eating due to the extreme heat and hummidity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses WILL eat if their is food to eat. It's an instinct. Like when horses get out and eat so much grain they die? Did you miss that when learning about horses? Most horses WILL eat until they can't anymore.


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

BarbB
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Once again someone else proved they don't read my posts well. I was asking you to explain WHY those things were important even though I came up with fairly credible reasons for them not to be. You did nothing but restate that they are important without giving evidence why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't give evidence (neither have you) but consider this.
Horsemanship has evolved over literally thousands of years.
It is certainly possible to over protect, over train, over coddle horses. It is equally possible to neglect horses.
The methods of taking care of horses to ensure an long useful life and a well trained and useful mount haven't been 'invented' they have evolved along with human's relationship with the horse. They work. Most people who consider themselves horsemen are open to new ideas, but not at the expense of their horses' well being.
They stick to what has worked for centuries and study the new to see if it is worth incorporating into these methods.
NON methods, LACK of training, LACK of care, and shortcuts are not an option for a horseman who wants a long term relationship with a horse.
Long term = 10, 15, 20 years, not a show season.

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Let's see. Today we got in a truckload of green horses. I taught 7 of them how to jump today, a few were acatually nice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'm impressed! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

BarbB



.

_...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings_

http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I'm so sure they all jumped with perfect scope, pace, balance, had great transitions, and everything... hmmmmm I'm also incredibly impressed.... yea....

OK, I SWEAR this is my last post here for now, I've been talking for quite a while... Sorry, but I HAD to reply to what I read!!!!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 12, 2003, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Once again someone else proved they don't read my posts well. I was asking you to explain WHY those things were important even though I came up with fairly credible reasons for them not to be. You did nothing but restate that they are important without giving evidence why. Well done.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHHH! sorry one more! I promise last one... for real this time lol! Many of us gave very sound evidence!!!!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PTDeaconHP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Have you even ever seen one that is so hot it is about to pass out? No? It happens down here sometimes because of the hummidity. They get turned out, run around like idiots, as horses do sometimes- yaknow, and come in really hot. THey don't eat... A lot of the horses quit eating due to the extreme heat and hummidity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses WILL eat if their is food to eat. It's an instinct. Like when horses get out and eat so much grain they die? Did you miss that when learning about horses? Most horses WILL eat until they can't anymore.


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HI READ MY POST. I HAVE PROOF from my own eyes and other people on here who have a different view supported my 'very hot horse won't eat' thing.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

jumpalberta
Jan. 12, 2003, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
Your horses arrive in trucks? More then 7 at a time?...fascinating! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and sometimes 12 at a time.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Last time I checked you cannot teach a horse to jump in one day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proved you wrong about 30 times this year... Wait, acatually, horses don't need to be taught, they aleady know how to jump.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This will be the last of my replies in this thread.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, right...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You have constantly been given VERY justified answers to your questions and keep shutting them down with uneducated responses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, but they are not very justified. I pointed out ways that I could refute them and asked for them to be proven against my alternative idea. Then, I got bitchy little responses from you. I'm glad though, you have been fun.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This just goes to show your entire point when posting. This was not to get peoples educated answers but simply to create conflict.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Putting words in my mouth, are we know? It wasn't started out for that reason. It still isn't. People like you got carried away and screamed abuse, blah, blah. I had a real point when I posted this. . .

Oh, and Sweetie, It takes to for a conflict to happen. One cannot create conflict
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
To me it is extremely clear that you are not only telling stories about the "truckloads" of horses you are training but that you have the exprience you say you do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eat your words. The barn where I keep my horses supplies ALL horses for mardi gras in new orleans. That means we have to buy 40 or so new horses every mardi gras season. And, I'm sure you are fabulous with your .. nevermind I will stop myself on this one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Could I please get the e-mail address of the barn you ride out of. I would very much like to talk to the trainer and approach her about her training methods. Not to attack her but to ask her how I could go about using some of her methods.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you want to throw firecrackers at your horse, you can train just like her. It is a saddlehorse barn... Heh...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If things are as easy as you say they are then we should all be teaching greenies like you do..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That word. Greenies. It annoys me. It is ugly to look at. Anyway,

just how do I train green horses? Have I said how *I* do it? Did I really say anything other than question how you do things? I said how I train 'school horses' that we get for mardi gras... But that is completely different from a real horse, well in a way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thanx for wasting everyones time. And I sincerely hope that others will accept this thread as a hopeless and pointless cause started by someone who couldn't act a little more mature. You are 18 are you not...I would expect this from a 12 year old. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU ARE SO just.. I don't know. Dumb? I have a DIFFERENCE IN OPINION than you do. That doesn't make the thread worthless or make me immature. You say I am trying to make conflict, but you helped initiate conflict. I hope you are book smart, because you obviously are not ready to encounter people with very different points of view than yourself....

I have brought up interesting points to be debated, you acted like an uninformed bitch who was sure I am abusing my horses. FYI- I'm not.

I have proof the things I do work- my horses.

Your 'horse' has a running martingale on fairly tight in the picture in your profile. You know that when they are that tight, they work like draw reins, right? That's what the saddlehorse people do when they are using a 'work bridle' - 2 reins, one through a running martingale like a draw rein. I bet you didn't know that, did you.

Yes, we get truckloads of horses in for Mardi Gras. 30-40 is the number they buy per year from the auctions. They all jump on the first day they come- most are only trail broke. You point at the jump and kick. The horse jumps the jump. If it doens't look like it is about to kill itself, we raise it! If we like it, we keep it. The only horses that WON'T jump are the crippled ones that are ancient and just walk or the ones that aren't broke yet...

I have not recieved responses in this thread that uphold their point of view against ALL of my arguements. Basically everyone got offended and thinks I don't grooom my horses and jump them everyday when they are 2. Did I ever say that? No.

Horses CAN learn to jump in one day. Infact, they ALREADY know how to jump naturally. Geeze.

I am also flattered that you know my age off hand, It really makes me feel special when people are that interested. Thanks.

I was questioning conventional methods of doing things.

.....There is no harm in that, only _stupid_ people don't question why they do something. Are you a stupid person?? I have my answer to that question, but I won't write it here. I will leave that for you to decide.

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow!
I've NEVER had anyone be so rude in all my life. I still hold to my word. I refuse to comment on any of your training/horsemanship comments. Its a huge waste of time in my books and a battle which cannot be won.

However I do feel that I have the right to say say that anyone that can call someone stupid, dumb, a bitch or any of the other names you called me should not be a member of a public BB. You obviously do not have the people skills nor the manners to participate in discussions such as these.

I would also like to note that you obviously did not pay close attantion to the picture in my profile as their is a large amount of slack in my martingale. You say that draw reins and a running martingale have the same action. Infact they do not...draw reains give you the full ability to pull a horse as far down or behind the vertical as desired. A running martingale will only help lower the head and give control to a certain degree. In the picture in my profile I am catch ridinga greenie for a boarder. This gelding had never shown before, let alone gone X-country. It is not my decision on which tack the horse wears or how it wears it. I am payed to do this job and do it willingly, no arguments from me. I just ride!

Oh right...and I secretly stalk you right? Wrong! The reason I know your age is because when I first read your post I assumed that it was one of the younger (11 or 12 year old) members who was trying to get a rise out of everyone and stir up some trouble. When I noted that you were 18, I was shocked to find out that their are people of your age still acting like they are in pre-school.

You have proven my point with your post. Your answers were rude, hurtful and most of all un-educated. You also failed to give me an e-mail address where I can contact the owner of the barn you ride from...no matter. I really could care less, I was just horrified by your most recent address to me.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You also failed to give me an e-mail address where I can contact the owner of the barn you ride from...no matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


YEA like that was EVER going to happen.

You can dish but you can't take. Oh well. And a tip- never explain why you have a bad picture in your profile. . . It only makes it sound worse

-----
I am a Fabulous Beast, and as such, I should only be glimpsed very rarely, through the forest, running away for dear life.

Just ask Amy, its true...

Atypical
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:44 PM
Okay, I can't believe I'm writing this on this thread again, but oh well. For the last freaking time, horses do not naturally know how to deal with a rider!!!!! People are an extra 100-200+ weight difference to the horse, and we are not necessarily all that balanced. Asking a horse to jump, although it may be "natural" for them to do, (though I've rarely met a horse who would just go and naturally jump a 3'+ obstacle), is a completely different ballgame when the horse is also asked to carry a rider who throws their own weight and balance and such into the mess.

People have taken time to answer this thread civilly and politely, and despite a few very well thought out posts (which I may note you did NOT respond to) you continue to lay claims that no one can refute your theories.

1.) Polos do protect tendons and offer minimal support, as well as prevent nicks and cuts. Why again is that bad?

2.) Fine, so people blanket too much in general, but I know quite a few TB's that would be quite miserable without their balnkets in our winds and winter conditions. Plus, horses are not living in the wild, they have been domesticated, they can't effectively move around a 12 x 12 stall to keep warm in a drafty barn.

3.) Dressage is essential for all horses. Horses that are engaged in their hind end travel better, and I think jump better than those that drag themselves along on their forehand. Dressage also helps get the horse soft and flexible.

4.) POles and cavelleti can be extremely useful for different resons. We use poles on the ground for horses learning to extend and collect, as well as people. A placement pole for a greenie or a horse that anticipates the jump can be a wonderful tool.

5.) Training should NOT be rushed. True, once our greenies can walk/trot/canter nicely with some balance we start them over fences, but small and gradually work our way up. I know one horse in particular, were you to point him at a fence and simply kick, would canter (or gallop) right up to it and then ditch at the last moment, usually sending those arrogant and overconfident flying over large oxers. My horse was also started in the manner you described, pointing and kicking, and he was a habitual stopper when I got him. He's also a wonderful horse whose is terribly athletic but hey, if you can't see it in five minutes, why bother with working with the animal right?

6.) If my horse came up lame and someone told me to simply bute him and ride him cause he's s dumb animal and won't know the difference I'd probably slap them. Our horses, our partners deserve more respect and thought from those that work them.

No offense, but I find most of your claims to "training" highly suspect. I've known many wonderful horsemen and women, and none would be so flippant in regards to proper training, saddle fit, and soundness. That's it, I'm done, end rant. Rip me to shreds if you will, as you will only be digging your own hole deeper.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 12, 2003, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atypical:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with one and two.

On #3 I meant overflexed hunters. I guess that isn't 'dressage' since it is just cranking down on a horses mouth...

#4 I think you can accomplish everything you have stated without the use of poles, but if they work they work...

#5 Well, if the horse stops fix it. If the horse is afraid of the jumps you can't really do it when they are super green, but if they are quiet and not too scared of the jumps small jumps should be no problem.

The five minutes thing, YES when it comes to the mardigras school horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But that is a special situation.

6. Not lame. At a horse show. All horses are lame, no horse is 100% sound.. well very few. Just like no person is 100% free from aches and pains.

Suspect me all you want, I don't really care. I never said a lame horse, I said at horse shows. Saddle fit- when someone posted those links of pictures I understood better. I'm going to look around at gulfport for a saddle.

Hole, Digging? No, I think not. I am writing words on the internet.

Why would I rip you to shreds. You have explained exactly why you believe things are done, and I have accepted those reasons with a few modifications.

---
.....Sliding through life on charm..

Atypical
Jan. 12, 2003, 11:06 PM
Thank you DH for a well thought out response to my post. I appreciate it. Good for you for sucking up and dealing with your horses issues. Personally I know saddle fitting is a royal pain the the butt for some horses, but having seen major differences in horses just from having a proper saddle, I am a big proponent for correct fitting.

True, few horses are 100% sound, but I think there is a significant difference in riding a horse that may be mildly arthritic (though I think long warm ups and careful planning are preferable to bute for our arthritic friends) and masking the pain of a specific problem. Perhaps you meant this too, but I suspect many did not see such clarification in your post. Again, I appreciate the manner in which you replied to my post.

fry my hyde
Jan. 12, 2003, 11:17 PM
So Richard... if you are such a "bad rider" why don't you show us what you got... post those pics!

-fun & delicious-

Kachoo
Jan. 13, 2003, 06:42 AM
Yeek. Not to take Darkerhorse's side or anything (because regardless of what you may or may not claim, Darkerhorse, I do think at least a tiny little part of you rejoices in causing mayhem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but I should warn those of you asking for Richard's pictures, hoping to see proof of ineptitude . . . last time he posted them, they were gorgeous, if he's the poster I'm thinking of. And with that, I flee this thread, shrieking.

Coca-Cola
Jan. 13, 2003, 10:36 AM
Please, everyone. Stop feeding the DH Troll. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 13, 2003, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:
Yeek. Not to take Darkerhorse's side or anything (because regardless of what you may or may not claim, Darkerhorse, I do think at least a tiny little part of you rejoices in causing mayhem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but I should warn those of you asking for Richard's pictures, hoping to see proof of ineptitude . . . last time he posted them, they were gorgeous, if he's the poster I'm thinking of. And with that, I flee this thread, shrieking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My picture is in my COTH profile http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

---
.....Sliding through life on charm..

Palisades
Jan. 13, 2003, 02:57 PM
And that's why this thread was so aptly titled- to demonstrate the difference between a rider (who may have beautiful horses and win a lot), and a horseman (who puts the horse first, regardless of results or lack thereof in the show ring).

jumpalberta
Jan. 13, 2003, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PCF FROLIC aka Darkerhorse:

YEA like that was EVER going to happen.

You can dish but you can't take. Oh well. And a tip- never explain why you have a bad picture in your profile. . . It only makes it sound worse<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did I explain why I have a bad picture in my profile..? Please explain. I explained to you why your point about my picture was once again not valid. I only justified why it was a very nice picture.

As well I sure as hell can take it but I don't need to make myself feel right by calling others names..ex: bitch, stupid, dumb..

fry my hyde
Jan. 13, 2003, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:
Yeek. Not to take Darkerhorse's side or anything (because regardless of what you may or may not claim, Darkerhorse, I do think at least a tiny little part of you rejoices in causing mayhem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but I should warn those of you asking for Richard's pictures, hoping to see proof of ineptitude . . . last time he posted them, they were gorgeous, if he's the poster I'm thinking of. And with that, I flee this thread, shrieking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

don't worry, no need to warn me, i've seen richard's pics, and i've seen him ride

-fun & delicious-

DarkerHorse
Jan. 13, 2003, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PCF FROLIC aka Darkerhorse:

YEA like that was EVER going to happen.

You can dish but you can't take. Oh well. And a tip- never explain why you have a bad picture in your profile. . . It only makes it sound worse<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did I explain why I have a bad picture in my profile..? Please explain. I explained to you why your point about my picture was once again not valid. I only justified why it was a very nice picture.

As well I sure as hell can take it but I don't need to make myself feel right by calling others names..ex: bitch, stupid, dumb..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can call you whatever I like, they are just words. Learn not to care.

I was also giving you a little piece of richard wisdom about when you are attacked... Never explain, never apologize. I haven't... and I don't... &lt;G&gt;

---
.....Sliding through life on charm..

DarkerHorse
Jan. 13, 2003, 09:50 PM
Oh, and slush puppie &lt;G&gt;,

I posted pics of Nifty. You've never seen them. It the horse I taught to jump, and do everything really...

He is so much fun.. Oh, this is the backsore horse. He is pretty good for being backsore, I'd say.. But, I am getting a new saddle at gulfport.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=2776081202

the pics are at that URL

---
.....Sliding through life on charm..

Kachoo
Jan. 13, 2003, 10:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slush puppie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:
Yeek. Not to take Darkerhorse's side or anything (because regardless of what you may or may not claim, Darkerhorse, I do think at least a tiny little part of you rejoices in causing mayhem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), but I should warn those of you asking for Richard's pictures, hoping to see proof of ineptitude . . . last time he posted them, they were gorgeous, if he's the poster I'm thinking of. And with that, I flee this thread, shrieking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

don't worry, no need to warn me, i've seen richard's pics, and i've seen him ride

-fun & delicious-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually just noticed the quotation marks you put around "bad rider" now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I just endured my first neuropharmacology class today - so yeah, the ol' brain, she's a tiny bit fried.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

DarkerHorse
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:
Yeek. Not to take Darkerhorse's side or anything (because regardless of what you may or may not claim, Darkerhorse, I do think at least a tiny little part of you rejoices in causing mayhem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I think you have my number to the boot. I really was dead serious when I make this thread. But, when people annoy me (even if I should not be annoyed) it is always fun to start an old fashioned board war...

...I haven't started this good of a board war since the 'Nylon Tack is a disrespect to the judge' war on AOL... that got a whole board taken away http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif No matter though, because now me and the hosts on AOL have been bestest friends since I was 13.

...Yea, no sleep again.. la, la, la.... I get to sleep in tomorrow at least, because my first class isn't until 3PM.

And I had so much fun today riding Nifty. My friend who took the pictures and I went grocery shopping at the new health store and then went to dinner and a movie.. I did all of that in show clothes. I figured I look better in show clothes than regular clothes and I just love being the center of attention, so it was a blast. Maybe I will wear show clothes more often!

Okay, now I am getting REALLY random. Eek...

Moving on, I need to 'reply' to uphold my image of 'never apologize, never explain':

Lady Cottenham, sweetie, darling.. I know you told everyone to stop feeding me..... Thanks for the little dessert. It just was the most lovely touch to the feast everyone else fed me...

Cheers, and thanks for the great 20 course meal...

Cheers...

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

TrickPony
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:19 AM
Richard you are a pissa!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Coca-Cola
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TrickPony:
Richard you are a pissa!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he's a troll http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TrickPony:
Richard you are a pissa!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hell yea! Die hard :x LOL

And Lady Cottington, Thanks for the fine breakfast. Will I get the pelasure of luch from you? Tea perhaps?
Cheers darling!

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

crackerjack
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:57 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Ha ha ha- hey jump alberta- I thought that DH was an 11 or 12 year old too http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I guess its true...boys do mature at a slower rate than girls......
(yes I admit that I am being a little immature here - but DH seemed to have no reply to my previous comments so meh...)

******************************

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.....

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crackerjack:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Ha ha ha- hey jump alberta- I thought that DH was an 11 or 12 year old too http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I guess its true...boys do mature at a slower rate than girls......
(yes I admit that I am being a little immature here - but DH seemed to have no reply to my previous comments so meh...)

******************************

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AN EXTREMELY SEXY AND PERFECT 12 year old maybe.. No, I'd think at least 13.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

jumpalberta
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I can call you whatever I like, they are just words. Learn not to care.

I was also giving you a little piece of richard wisdom about when you are attacked... Never explain, never apologize. I haven't... and I don't..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea you can call me whatever you want, but I sure as hell can decide what I will and won't care about.

I apologized for you not liking my picture? Now whos putting words in my mouth. Come to think of it when did I explain? I didn't explain, only told you that you were wrong. I think that since you know I'm right you feel that excuses and subject changes need to be made.

Alas, we have an 12 year old trapped in an 18 year olds body, whatever shall we do.

Oh and in almost every picture you've shown, your ducking over jumps. Now Richard dear, don't make excuses or apologize.

This is almost fun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ideayoda
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:38 PM
&gt;&gt;Polos support the tendons so they don't get pulled of strained.....

Unless they are put on correctly (figure 8) they provide little tendon support, but are really just to keep a horse from hitting itself in lateral work. Tendons support stress downward, not horizontally. I do use them, but I was taught to put them on by a great race horse bandaging person.

I.D.E.A. yoda

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jumpalberta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I can call you whatever I like, they are just words. Learn not to care.

I was also giving you a little piece of richard wisdom about when you are attacked... Never explain, never apologize. I haven't... and I don't..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea you can call me whatever you want, but I sure as hell can decide what I will and won't care about.

I apologized for you not liking my picture? Now whos putting words in my mouth. Come to think of it when did I explain? I didn't explain, only told you that you were wrong. I think that since you know I'm right you feel that excuses and subject changes need to be made.

Alas, we have an 12 year old trapped in an 18 year olds body, whatever shall we do.

Oh and in almost every picture you've shown, your ducking over jumps. Now Richard dear, don't make excuses or apologize.

This is almost fun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why would I? I have an 18 year olds body, A Damn sexy one at that. I am ducking in every picture. Oh well. You look far worse over every jump I'd venture to say. I dont apologize or explain.. Ever..

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

Medievalist
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:15 PM
This is great stuff! Online BB fighting cracks me up!!!!! I hadn't opened this topic yet, and it has amused me for the past 45 minutes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Life would be so much duller without people like DH.

If anyone really wants to get upset about jumping green youngsters, then come yell at me :guilty: We used to take 3yo unbroken tbs and have them broken and galloping 4'ish hurdles in less than 3 weeks. The racetrack people really push their horses. Just hopping some trail horses over some little jumps pales in comparison to it...in fact everything pales in comparison http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
This is great stuff! Online BB fighting cracks me up!!!!! I hadn't opened this topic yet, and it has amused me for the past 45 minutes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Life would be so much duller without people like DH.

If anyone really wants to get upset about jumping green youngsters, then come yell at me :guilty: We used to take 3yo unbroken tbs and have them broken and galloping 4'ish hurdles in less than 3 weeks. The racetrack people really push their horses. Just hopping some trail horses over some little jumps pales in comparison to it...in fact everything pales in comparison http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like fun to me!!

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

fry my hyde
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:38 PM
YAY for online BB fighting and insults! wa hoo!

-fun & delicious-

DarkHrs: if they want my ass I like them!
DarkHrs: man woman or animal

Fandango
Jan. 15, 2003, 03:42 AM
I'm not going thru all these posts, cause I get the gist!! I just wanted to thank Barngirl from Ann Arbor MI. Who said it EXACTLY the way I feel!! Thankyou! To me thats whats wrong with so many people today, The attitude of who cares why bother, whats so important! That is sad. Thanks again Barngirl! My kind of horseman!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Fandango, Kim

FionaJ
Jan. 15, 2003, 08:23 AM
And about jumping young horses extensively and how the horses are treated at the track--just because it happens doesn't make it right or even good for the horse. Horsemanship is taking into consideration what is in the best interest of the horse, not doing something just because you can. There is a definite distinction between the two.

I thought both profile pictures were quite credible and good. DH looks to be a sympathetic lovely rider and I liked the style of JA over cross country and did not see anything suspect with the running martingale. I used one with my Prelim. horse because he would get really high headed--but it my experience it never worked like draw reins.

Erin
Jan. 15, 2003, 01:50 PM
People, knock it off... ALL of you.

Keep the conversation civil or this thread goes. (Probably should have gone long ago, but I haven't been on the H/J forum in a few days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Gold Dust
Jan. 15, 2003, 06:04 PM
O.K. I've read the whole thread and yes, it was quite entertaining and funny. But, what made me laugh was, DH, in his need to get you all going, from his very first post, showed everyone with his own special sarcastic way, that he does pocess horsemanship skills!

Nine pages so far DH!! You do have a way with words!!
:flee:

"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on"-
Stevie Nicks

DarkerHorse
Jan. 15, 2003, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
O.K. I've read the whole thread and yes, it was quite entertaining and funny. But, what made me laugh was, DH, in his need to get you all going, from his very first post, showed everyone with his own special sarcastic way, that he does pocess horsemanship skills!

Nine pages so far DH!! You do have a way with words!!
:flee:

"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on"-
Stevie Nicks
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I might have a way with words, however words aren't my buisness. If they were maybe it would be even longer..

Of course, I only use words from on screen name rather than 20.. Who knows.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

Gold Dust
Jan. 16, 2003, 11:29 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on"-
Stevie Nicks

starman
Jan. 16, 2003, 01:58 PM
Darkerhorse,
Not to be rude or anything, but I think you should read everythingbutwings topic on the "off course" board about people starting trouble and then others getting upset. I know that if this topic troubled me sooo much than I shouldnt have clicked on it. It didnt bother me too much until I got to part were I read that you just wanted to start a BB fight, just for hte hell of it. IMHO, I think you are extemely immature and need to grow up.

Loyal servant of Queen Joker Britches. Best friend of Haidas Poisen. Confused partner in crime with Skys the Limit.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 16, 2003, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ievent247:
Darkerhorse,
Not to be rude or anything, but I think you should read everythingbutwings topic on the "off course" board about people starting trouble and then others getting upset. I know that if this topic troubled me sooo much than I shouldnt have clicked on it. It didnt bother me too much until I got to part were I read that you just wanted to start a BB fight, just for hte hell of it. IMHO, I think you are extemely immature and need to grow up..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AND YOU NEED TO GET SOME READING GLASSES, or just be sent to old people retirement pace.

I never sad the posts were started to fight. They aren't. If you believe everything other people say then go join hitler.. or something.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

creseida
Jan. 16, 2003, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
...it is always fun to start an old fashioned board war...

...I haven't started this good of a board war since the 'Nylon Tack is a disrespect to the judge' war on AOL... that got a whole board taken away .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Followed by
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I never sad the posts were started to fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make up your mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse: If you believe everything other people say then go join hitler.. or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot believe you actually wrote this on this BB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Ghazzu
Jan. 17, 2003, 06:27 AM
It's ok, Cressida--he invoked Godwin's Law.
That ends the thread.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

starman
Jan. 17, 2003, 08:20 AM
Thank you creseida!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And really Darkerhorse, that Hitler insult wasnt really necessary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Sorry Ghazzu, when I posted this before I edited it your post didnt show up.
Like you said before, this ends the tread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Loyal servant of Queen Joker Britches. Best friend of Haidas Poisen. Confused partner in crime with Skys the Limit.

[This message was edited by ievent247 on Jan. 17, 2003 at 12:12 PM.]

DarkerHorse
Jan. 17, 2003, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by creseida:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
...it is always fun to start an old fashioned board war...

...I haven't started this good of a board war since the 'Nylon Tack is a disrespect to the judge' war on AOL... that got a whole board taken away .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Followed by
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I never sad the posts were started to fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make up your mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse: If you believe everything other people say then go join hitler.. or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot believe you actually wrote this on this BB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I wrote it. Believe it. Also, you misquoted me. I said that when others attacked me, it wasn't enough to shut me up. It was interesting. Have fun on 'where the veiw is best, on your horse!"

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

SoEasy
Jan. 17, 2003, 01:55 PM
Richard, if you want to have a flame war, why don't you invite all your friends over to Catchride.com to play?

the rest of you might want to consider the plight of baby quiches, or baby carrots, or Peeps for a while! Thanks

DarkerHorse
Jan. 17, 2003, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
Richard, if you want to have a flame war, why don't you invite all your friends over to Catchride.com to play?

the rest of you might want to consider the plight of baby quiches, or baby carrots, or Peeps for a while! Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



K OK OK OK WOW... SO NOW A MODERATOR IS TAKING SIDES...
....HOW professional. You ARE a fantastic, bias, moderator.

Weren't you the one who tried to 'ban' me once? Or said you were at least? BTW- banning really doesn't work on anything but AOL, and even then you can just resign up. Please, if you are going to be rude at least don't do it under your moderator name. How gross.

Also,

Someone who can't read again... This wasn't made as a 'war', you just disargree with the points I have made...

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'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

SoEasy
Jan. 17, 2003, 03:24 PM
NO, I have never tried to have you banned.

And I don't want to get into a fight about how effective the banning is or can be.

I will however close this thread, as I am receiving complaints about the direction it is taking.

End of story.