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View Full Version : Large hearted event horses (was Martian Tiger)



Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 08:02 AM
Martian Tiger has a pretty impressive pedigree. He is a 1988 TB gelding and I'm in the process of putting him into the Del Mar database.

Interestingly enough, on first glance, like the other upper level event horses that I've checked, he appears to have the indicators that he has a larger than normal heart. Pretty cool :-)

Libby

[This message was edited by Bensmom on May. 08, 2002 at 10:05 AM.]

Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 08:02 AM
Martian Tiger has a pretty impressive pedigree. He is a 1988 TB gelding and I'm in the process of putting him into the Del Mar database.

Interestingly enough, on first glance, like the other upper level event horses that I've checked, he appears to have the indicators that he has a larger than normal heart. Pretty cool :-)

Libby

[This message was edited by Bensmom on May. 08, 2002 at 10:05 AM.]

GotSpots
May. 7, 2002, 08:20 AM
Thanks Libby! I knew I could count on someone to have access to the research. I checked Del Mar but didn't see him on there. How'd you find the info about the size of his heart?

Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 08:20 AM
Okay, it's up on the Del Mar database.

http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree

Libby

Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 08:29 AM
The research that's being done on the x-factor large heart gene has been utilized mostly in evaluating racehorses. My pet theory is that in most successful event horses, we'll find the same thing. It passes through the female line only as it is linked to the x-chromosome, so if you can pull the pedigree and trace back to four of the large heart lines, and it descends through the female line, you can guess that the descendant will have a large heart. When you check the option to have del mar show you the x-factor in the pedigree it doesn't light up as many indicators as I found.

Which may mean that, as an rank beginner with this stuff, I'm wrong about the number of places it showed up, or that the computer that generates the pedigree automatically discounts any chance of it passing through a sire, though sires can and do pass it to daughters.

Confused yet? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I chatted with an upper level rider about using this info to pick event prospects at Red Hills, and after I said "well, I know you can't *ride* the pedigree, but . . ." He made a great point and said, "No, but the Germans have shown us that you sure can stack the deck in your favor!"

Very interesting stuff, and I'm packing a couple of folders with research to see if my theory might be correct.

Both of my boys have the indicators of the large heart gene, and both of our vets are very interested in the research -- one is a race horse breeder and the other worked in Ocala when first out of vet school. At some point when I've paid down my bill some, I'm going to see if we can ultrasound the two of them and check and see if my pedigree research matches their actual physical hearts.

Or maybe I'm just a nerd who would rather read about this stuff than do my real job of practicing law /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Libby

GotSpots
May. 7, 2002, 08:45 AM
That's actually really interesting. Spot's dam is a pure TB, but for some reason she's not on the TB site, but is on the all breeds site (Chantilly Gray, by Great Substance out of Credit Risk) where I don't see an x-factor marker to check? Maybe I don't understand the site well enough.

I'm assuming that a larger heart means more capacity to pump blood and thus more efficient under high stress situations (thus, in an event horse, better able to cope with x-c required athletic output at high speed), so it would make sense that successful horses might be more likely to have the genetics for it. The theory reasons that since so many upper level event horses are geldings and many (not all) of the stallions aren't going Advanced or 4* before they start breeding, it may be harder to use performance as a touchstone for genetics, and thus the pedigree research would be indicative?

-GotSpots

JDufort
May. 7, 2002, 09:32 AM
Libby

Wow... another event person looking into the large heart theory.

I'd love to hear more abour your research? My email is jdufort@aol.com.

I've got my own "amateur" tool I have used to compare and evaluate eventing prospects, and the large heart factor is an important piece. Also, the appearance of certain lines.

Interestingly enough, our trainers veteran Rolex horse scores the highest of any horse we have charted - and the's the top performing event horse I've charted.

Our guy (Northlight) may also have a large heart. You can find him on DelMar as Diamondham, 1993, out of Vanlandingham (Eclipse Award winner) by Mulberry Moon.

Northlight has been eventing since spring 2000, and he was 2nd last weekend in his first CCI* - not bad progression. He's running Intermediate like a champ, and we think he'll be running Advanced sometime next spring.

Breeding is no guarantee - but it does stack the decks. I agree.

Jeanne

Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 11:31 AM
GotSpots -- you are absolutely correct -- on the all breeds site there isn't the option to select the x-factor display. I'm not sure why she appears there and not in the TB database. With some more time, I can wiggle around and see if I can add the missing horses in her pedigree.

You are also correct that a larger heart means a more efficient "engine" to be able to run xc -- I've also been interested to see if it correlates to an emotional large "heart" i.e. the willingness to try, even when the going gets rough. And, again, I think since so many upper level horses are geldings, and frequently those who didn't do well at the track, the pedigree may be the best indicator, other than actual performance of the horse in question. It is interesting to see how many horses don't have an impressive racing record and that it doesn't have much to do with them -- they can end up not racing at all (My Ben was injured before he was two and would have missed his lucrative 2 year old year, so he never raced) or be poorly managed and not do well and this will not be indicative of how good they really can be.

Jeanne -- I will definitely e-mail you with some of my random thoughts -- I'm just starting to attempt to bring order to the info I've been squirreling away in various folders and notebooks for the last couple of years. Marianna Haun's x-factor books are excellent. I've gone through the second one first and am now reading in the first one.

One thing important to remember about this stuff, of course, is that there are great horses out there with "normal" hearts. Bold Ruler and Mr. Prospector are just two. And, of course, the sire can pass along other traits that contribute to a great horse.

FWIW, people keep mentioning that War Emblem didn't have a very impressive pedigree. I'd disagree with that, as he goes back to the War Admiral heart on the bottom -- way back, but still, it is there in transmittable female line, and he is a cross to Mr. Prospector's speed on the top. A very nice cross, if you ask me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby (which of course, no one did, and I didn't even see the Derby as I was out on I-10, searching for something that had blown out of my truck at post time. <sigh> )

Badger
May. 7, 2002, 12:21 PM
Question about the "x-factor" on the Del Mar site: when I do this for my mare's pedigree, I get a lot of horses with red underlining and one (Cap and Bells) with blue underlining. What do these things mean?

Which are the four "large heart" lines you refer to? I know about Secretariat, but nothing beyond that.

Bensmom
May. 7, 2002, 01:04 PM
The red lines are the single copy horses and the blue lines are the double copy horses (horses with one large hearted x and horses with both x's being large hearted) The site says that it doesn't highlight the horses with large heart genes that are not in a position to pass that gene along. The funny thing, though, is that some horses that ought to be double copy appear sometimes having a red line instead. Odd -- but again, I am a real beginner at the this stuff, so I could have a misunderstanding of figuring it out myself.

The four heart lines that Haun mentions in her book are Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral, and Princequillo. They show up in TBs and QHs, and standardbreds as well. The second book has some fascinating info about the outward physical characteristics that appear to travel with each of the large heartlines.

Really cool stuff /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby & Ben (whose mom was a double copy QH mare, and Buzzy, who appears to have the War Admiral heart, including the physical characteristics for it, but who won't be able to *use* it if he doesn't quit hurting himself!)

Gry2Yng
May. 7, 2002, 02:00 PM
I have been interested in the *large heart* theory for a while. I never understood how it worked on the del mar site. Thanks for the info.

FWIW, the reason many horses do not appear on Del Mar is that they must be input versus the database that Jockey Club has. If you know the sire and dam, you can ususally upload the pedigree to Del Mar.

subk
May. 7, 2002, 02:08 PM
Libby -- great info! This is a brand new concept for me. I knew that when Secretariat was autopsied it was found that the size of his heart was much larger than average. I also know (after prematurely being labled a dud in the sire department) that he became one of the top broodmare sires in modern history. Am I making too big of a leap here to assume the x-chromosome related "large heart" was a big contributing factor?

Badger
May. 7, 2002, 02:11 PM
Thanks! Bensmom, would you be willing to look up Luminary Princess and tell me if she should carry the single gene? 3 of her 4 great-grand-dams are underlined, and both of her grand-dams, so shouldn't she have it too?

Gry2Yng
May. 7, 2002, 02:25 PM
subk, that is exactly what made Secr. a great dam sire. He gave his big heart x to all of his daughters, some would be single copies and some doubles. Weekend Surprise is a double copy mare by Secr. She was the dam of AP Indy and Summer Squall.

Bensmom, I don't think you are wrong about the Del Mar database being a bit off on the x-factor. One of the horses in our barn is a Buckpasser grandson (Buckpasser and his dam are both single copies acording to Haun's book) and they are not marked by Del Mar.

JDufort
May. 7, 2002, 04:36 PM
In addition to the "Big Four" stallions mentioned above, there is also a compilation of mares that are generally regarded to be double copy - that is both X chromosomes carry the predisposition to have a larger than normal heart.

A mare inherits her sire's only X chromosome, so a sire that is "proven" or "regarded" to have a large heart has a 100% chance of passing that on to his daughters. The same mare inherits only one of her dam's two X chromosomes. So if her dam was a double copy mare, then the daughter will inherit the "large heart" factor (X factor). If the dam had one "large heart" X and one "normal" X, then the daughter has a 50% chance.

Our Northlight (Diamondham)is a horse (gelding), so he has a Y from his sire's side, so no possibility of "X factor" from the sire side. On his dam's side, Mulberry Moon has a possible large heart X from both her sire (Our Native) and her dam (Morning Smiles). So Norhlight's X may pass on large heart.

The trouble with proving this is that the final answer comes either from expensive diagnosis or from autopsy. And Haun has not opened her research to scrutiny from others, so some question the robustness of her theories.

But its interesting. What seems to make some sense, is that almost all of the top racing horses track positive for this trait. Not to say that all horses with this trait become top race horses - in fact, only a small percentage become really succesful.

Lisamarie8
May. 7, 2002, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
The four heart lines that Haun mentions in her book are Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral, and Princequillo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooo, you guys can help me out. I was just talking with Fairweather about My appendix's dam who was an OTTB. Turns out she's got Princequillo /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif in her pedegree. Can you guys take a look at it and tell me what you see. Admitedly i know NOTHING really about TB breeding, I just know i fell in love with the mare when i saw her.

I posted a jpeg of Chi-Chi's pedegree. Take a looksy /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-- Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

Bensmom
May. 8, 2002, 07:04 AM
Wow! I am so excited that other eventers are interested in this stuff as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I knew that when Secretariat was autopsied it was found that the size of his heart was much larger than average. I also know (after prematurely being labled a dud in the sire department) that he became one of the top broodmare sires in modern history. Am I making too big of a leap here to assume the x-chromosome related "large heart" was a big contributing factor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Gry2yng said, this is *exactly* why Secretariat was prematurely labled a "dud" in the breeding shed. In fact, two of the horses that Slew sired that are cited as proof of his greatness as a sire (A.P. Indy, and Summer Squall) carried Secretariat's heart through their dam, Weekend Surprise. Though, it is interesting that Slew's heart did run on in Cigar, through his dam, Solar Slew a daughter of Seattle Slew.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luminary Princess and tell me if she should carry the single gene? 3 of her 4 great-grand-dams are underlined, and both of her grand-dams, so shouldn't she have it too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oooo, you guys can help me out. I was just talking with Fairweather about My appendix's dam who was an OTTB. Turns out she's got Princequillo in her pedegree. Can you guys take a look at it and tell me what you see. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keeping in mind that I am not an expert at this stuff . . . . I did take a look at both mares, and um, can I say wow?!

First on Luminary Princess -- since she is a mare, both sides of her pedigree are important in terms of the x-factor. On very bottom of the top side of her pedigree, she has, to quote Haun, "the very good broodmare sire, Double Jay." (XFactor 1, pg. 87) His daughter, Continue, has a green star in the Del Mar database marking her as a "Rein de Course" or on the list of great broodmares. Because her dam is also marked as carrying the x-factor it is probable that she is a double copy mare. The large heart gene probably traveled all the way down to Illuminate, your mare's sire, and if he had the gene, it would have passed to his daughter.

The fun part of your mare's pedigree, though is on her dam's side. Citation is all the way at the bottom -- another great runner considered to be a "dud" as a sire at first. He was bred to Alablue, who is a daughter of Blue Larkspur. She also goes back to War Admiral through War Siren, and descends through Princess Jane W., who interestingly enough is also in the bottom of Martian Tiger's pedigree, though I inputted her as simply Princess Jane, since that is how the Jockey Club had her listed.

There are a number of great horses in her pedigree, even where they are not in a position to pass along the large heart gene, they are still pretty cool. Turn To, for instance I've seen noted as a great sire of jumpers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, on Run Apalachee Run, hey, Lisamarie8, since you don't know much about TB pedigrees, wanna sell this mare? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just without digging very far, she's got Double Jay in a position to pass the gene (although unmarked by Del Mar -- odd) Mahmoud, bred to a double copy mare in a position to pass the gene, she goes back to Domino, again in a position to pass through Gala Bell, and Sandury, on the bottom side is a daughter of War Admiral. Plus, she's got lots of other good horses scattered throughout. She crosses well with Quarter Horses? <sigh -- that's what I want to find eventually is a well bred TB to cross with QHs /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif >

All of this is terrifically interesting, in fact, I can spend hours paying attention to this and not working (or, shoot, sleeping, as was pointed out to me last night that I really had to wait until this morning to reply on this thread again /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) but Jeanne makes an excellent point:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The trouble with proving this is that the final answer comes either from expensive diagnosis or from autopsy. And Haun has not opened her research to scrutiny from others, so some question the robustness of her theories.

But its interesting. What seems to make some sense, is that almost all of the top racing horses track positive for this trait. Not to say that all horses with this trait become top race horses - in fact, only a small percentage become really succesful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that Haun has stated that the large heart characteristic is no more than about 23% of what makes a good horse. And, you can have a horse with a large heart that for many other reasons, either doesn't race or doesn't want to event. I am hoping to find a way to have my boys tested at some point, just to see if my pedigree research bears itself out. All of the factors needed to make a great race or sport horse have to be there -- training, management, and the genes in order for a horse to be really successful, but this is a fun thing to look into and a useful thing to know. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

tle
May. 8, 2002, 07:22 AM
Ok, I'm trying to figure all this out and while biology was a favorite of mine in school, I'm still not 100% sure on reading pedigrees... so bear with me.

If the x-factor is carried by the mares, and a my girl's great-dam on her sire's side had the x-factor... wouldn't it have passed through her sire to her? Is that how it works? Her sire would have gotten his X gene from his dam which in turn he would have HAD to pass on to any female get? Geez, I think I'm confusing myself. I do see the red underlines in Char's pedigree (listed as *gag* Tippateena), but not sure if I fully understand how it works. Keep posting... maybe I'll figure it out (thanks for all the great info to date)... and if you care to look at her pedigree and let me know if I'm on the right track, I'd appreciate it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 11... Why the tears? I think it's "Message from Home" time... Neleh or Robert gets the axe.

GO RED WINGS!!!

terry
May. 8, 2002, 07:40 AM
I don't know a thing about this pedigree stuff but I find it fascinating and want to learn more. I went to the Del Mar site and added my daughter's pony; True Romantic. He is a son of Romantico (son of Secretariat) and True Halo (daughter of Halo). How can I tell from the information listed there if he is likely to have a large heart? Also, how can I learn what all the numbers at the top of the pedigree mean and what all the information shown means? Is there an explanation somewhere on that site, or is it standard TB pedigree stuff and it is assumed that you understand what it all means already? Thanks for posting about this stuff, its great.

AM
May. 8, 2002, 07:43 AM
TLE - Your horse's sire only received one of his mother's X chromosomes. If both of her X chromosomes carried the large heart gene, then he would indeed have inherited it and passed it on to his daughter, your mare. However, if only one of his mother's X chromosomes carried the large heart gene, he had only a fifty percent chance of receiving that X chromosome and passing it on to Char.

Bensmom
May. 8, 2002, 07:51 AM
Boy, this is waaaay more fun than work /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tle -- Char has a chance to have the large heart gene in at least two places. You are right that if her sire has it, which it would appear that he does, since his mom is a probable double copy mare (again, there must be something I don't understand about the way the Del Mar system lists the horses, because they show her as only a single copy mare, though she appears to be double to me) he'd pass it to his daughter.

Even more important though, is the War Admiral in the very bottom of her pedigree. She may very well carry the War Admiral heart. Which is a very good thing :-)

Also interesting is that she has Swaps, not in a position to pass the gene himself, but bred to a mare that probably has it. Therefore going back to War Admiral on the top as well. She also has Eight Thirty in a position to pass the gene, and according to Haun, "Eight Thirty is a name found frequently on the X chromosome line of large-hearted horses." (XFactor 1, pg 143) There is probably more cool info on the bottom side if one keeps digging, but right in her first five generations just the horses in a position to pass the gene are pretty interesting. She also, as you no doubt know, does have Princequillo, Tom Fool (sire of Buckpasser) (twice), the aforementioned Swaps, and Turn To -- which are just the names that jump off the page at me.

Again, I'm not an expert, and there is always some question about which genes are dominant and which are recessive and that controls what does and does not pass along.


Libby (whose little event prospect with the bowed tendon also is a Swaps descendant, and who has a number of the physical characteristics of the War Admiral heart -- now, if we could just keep him from picking fights and getting any more hurt. Grrrrrr)

Janet
May. 8, 2002, 07:57 AM
Can somebody explain how to get this information from the delmar site. I don't get any red or blue underlining (except the blue underline that is part of the http link) even though I am looking at pedigrees that include Mahmoud and/or Princiquillo on the dams side.

RacetrackReject
May. 8, 2002, 07:57 AM
I don't get the technical part of this at all, but can someone look at Golf Course Spy on Delmar and tell me if there's a chance that he has this large heart gene? Also, what are the physical characteristics? Thanks.

Bensmom
May. 8, 2002, 07:59 AM
is listed as having at least a single copy mare as his dam. Again, I would guess that because Halo's dam was listed as a double copy mare, and that he therefore, would have the x-factor, and would pass it to a daughter, his dam might actually be a double copy mare. If that's true, i.e. she has both her x-chromosomes with the gene, then he will have gotten it from her.

On the Del Mar site, the FAQ tells you that if you check "yes" on the option to show x-factor it will put a red line under single copy horses and blue under double copy ones.

This is pretty cool -- do you guys think that we are finding the x-factor present in horses that we've chosen to event with because the traits that go along with the large heart -- boldness, a desire to gallop, the strength to gallop, are what we've been choosing event horses based on, and that therefore we've been unconciously selecting large hearted horses all along? i.e. that "look of eagles" that Jimmy Wofford talks about -- interesting to see if that corresponds to these other physical traits. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

Bensmom
May. 8, 2002, 08:05 AM
If you have an older browser, Del Mar's site says the lines won't show up even when the option is selected.

I'll grab the 2d x-factor book, which has more about the physical characteristics this afternoon and post some of those, and also if I remember to, I'll take some pics of Buzz and show some of the War Admiral physical traits.

I'm going to be gone all afternoon to have blood tests run on Ben, so I may not get back to the computer before tomorrow, but I'll put up more then.

Golf Course Spy has one double copy mare, Hipparete, and this x is in a position to have been passed dam-dam-sire-dam to your horse. Again, I just glanced at it quickly and didn't dig, but that is what Del Mar had listed.

Thanks for all the input, guys!

Libby

tle
May. 8, 2002, 08:10 AM
Libby,

Thanks so much for the detail on Char's pedigree. It's all pretty fascinating, but somethign I haven't taken the time necessary to really "know" anything about.

As for your question on how we choose the horse... I can't answer it. I found Char before I even knew Eventing existed... and if you remember, didn't know her true breeding until a few short months ago.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 11... Why the tears? I think it's "Message from Home" time... Neleh or Robert gets the axe.

GO RED WINGS!!!

RacetrackReject
May. 8, 2002, 08:12 AM
One more question..

Could a racing bred Paint who was a Paint/ Appendix cross (dam was Appendix) have the large heart thing?

The dam's Sire was Majestic Lover by B M'Lovelee who is out of Swaps and B My Bonny who are both marked for the x-factor (both go back to War Admiral). At least I think that's correct, if I'm understanding what I've been reading.

Just wanted to add the horse's registered name. It's Boston Bar Link aka Kahlua

[This message was edited by texasgirl29 on May. 08, 2002 at 11:27 AM.]

Janet
May. 8, 2002, 08:15 AM
Switchin browsers (from Netscape to IE) did the trick).

GotSpots
May. 8, 2002, 08:25 AM
Gee Libby, I think you could take up a whole new career track: assessing the breeding of all of our horses! I think, from my reading of it, that Spot doesn't carry the gene (but I've not yet figured out how to upload his Paint side from the APHA site to Del Mar so I'm only going from his dam, Chantilly Gray, who has both Dancers and Man of War, but through the sire line instead of the dam).

I am interested in the traits associated with the gene, however, since often when we are looking for horses we don't always have access to a full pedigree. Would love to see pictures/outlines!

Janet
May. 8, 2002, 08:39 AM
Belle is a Conn x TB. It looks as if her TB dam (French Letters, not shown in the delmar site, but by French Champagne, who does carry it, and out of Alligator Alley, whose dam carried at least a single copy) carries at least a single copy, and possibly (25%) a double copy. So Belle should have at least a 50% chance of a large heart.

Neat.

None of my others have a significant chance of having it.

ASC
May. 8, 2002, 09:22 AM
I too find this extremely interesting and hope I can add something to the conversation. In going back to review our Riverdale's pedigree (1991 gelding by In Fijar out of Al Madina) on Delmar, I see he carries all four of the heart lines on his dam's side: Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral and Princequillo. (He actually has a double dose of Man O' War -- which I think is cool.)

In addition to this, I DO have sonograms of his heart. He was diagnosed with a heart murmur that required further exploration to determine it's severity. All's find there, but we will sonogram his heart again in a year or so, to be sure all's well. I'll ask them about the size of his heart then. (I did ask the first time, but the vet looked at me like I was crazy!) BTW, has there been any connection made between large hearts and heart murmurs?

He was a "successful" race horse, having earned about $50K in the five years he raced. He's now 11 and proving himself as an event horse. He's an all-around amazing athlete, if a bit distracted at times!

If you can add anything to my knowledge of his pedigree, specifically as it relates to x factor, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

JDufort
May. 8, 2002, 09:30 AM
Interesting to see Swaps coming up, since this is something I've been looking at.

Northlight (Diamondham) is a descendant of Swaps on both sides:

Swaps bred to Bimlette (double copy mare) produced No Robbery (single copy stallion)

No Robbery bred to Radmar (possible double or single copy mare) produced Morning Smiles (definetely single copy and possible double copy mare)

The it gets interesting...

Morning Smiles is bred to Our Native, who won more than $400,000 in the early 70's (great success) and is a possible large heart stallion. That produced Mulberry Moon, dam of our horse.

Also, Radmar's dam is Radio Time, and her sire is Eight Thirty.

Of course, Northlight cannot have an X from his sire's side, but still he gets 1/2 of his genetic makeup from their, and there's more to peak perfromance than a large heart. His sire is Vanlandingham, an Eclipse Award winner who turned out to be a relative bust at sireing American flat racers. Vanlandingham is also a descendent of Swaps. However, you have to look a bit further at what Vanlandingham passes on... His progeny mature in their 5th and 6th years. Some have been extremely successful steeplechasers. So while he doesn't pass on the 2 and 3 year old brilliance that is fashionable in modern flat racing, he produces durable distance runners and jumpers - perfect for upper level eventing, I imagine.

Jeanne

From my research, there are some interesting things about Swaps. He won more than $800K racing in the 50's - one of the most dominent horses in his day. But he was owned by a renegade guy, and is widely believed to have been badly handled. Imagine what he might have done properly handled! He is considered a large heart horse, and his persistence and performance under less than optimum conditions give anecdotal weight to that. I'm thinking that perhaps the Swaps line may be very helpful in "building" a top event horse - certainly at Rolex we saw the advantage to performance under tough conditions.

JDufort
May. 8, 2002, 09:32 AM
Since you are looking at a gelding, from a large heart perspective he has only one X chromosome and that comes from his dam's side. So don't worry about the sire side

Erin
May. 8, 2002, 09:53 AM
Goodness, this is interesting.

Out of curiosity, how is it determined that a horse carries the gene?

I just looked up my TB (Chief's Ahead, by Snow Chief and out of Clearly Ahead), and he's got some of the gene way back. Nothing in the more recent generations, though... does this mean the gene was lost, or just that it's not known if those horses carry it or not?

Bensmom
May. 8, 2002, 10:08 AM
I'm running really late and I have to tack Ben up and ride (oh, yay! 90+ degrees in the middle of the afternoon!) before the vet gets there to pull his blood after stress, so I won't start digging on pedigrees, but Erin, I think sometimes Del Mar doesn't show the gene if nothing much is known about the horse.

Jeanne, I have some questions for you and I'll e-mail 'em tonight -- and I may want to collect some more info from y'all and see about accumulating some data on horses currently eventing -- this is such a wonderful resource!

Thanks for everyone's interest -- this has been my pet subject for a while -- boy can I put people to sleep talking about this /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby

can't re-
May. 8, 2002, 10:10 AM
I love looking up pedigrees and researching different lines.

I have a question.....my mare was just bred to War Secretary, a son of SECRETARIAT. When I pull up War Secretary it doesn't show the big heart at all on SECRETRIAT's side. Does anyone know why it doesn't show up???
Thanks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As is our confidence, so is our capacity.
~W. Hazlitt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Janet
May. 8, 2002, 10:25 AM
Because War Secretary is a male, he inherited a Y chromosome form Secetariat, not the X chomosome which carries this gene. The ONLY way War Secretary could get it is if his DAM carried it on one or both of her Xs.

A male gets an X from his dam and a Y from his sire.

A female gets an X from her Dam and another X from her sire.

The delmar site does not underline the horses which carry the gene, but which can NOT have been passed on to the horse in question. (i.e., sire to son)

If you click on "X-chromosome" next to "highlight" at the top of the page, it will highlight all the possible sources of the X chromosome for the horse in question.

JDufort
May. 8, 2002, 10:38 AM
ASC

what I like most about Riverdale is that he has "old lines". What I mean by that is he was born in 1991, from 77 and 75 parents, and from 54,60,61, and 68 grandparents.

American race horses used to be bred for stamina, distance, longevity - they raced for many seasons before retiring to stud.

Modern American racehorses are bred for young brilliance, and their highest value comes from stud fees so they are retired after 3 and 4 year old seasons. Many feel that we are losing the original traits of stamina, distance, and longevity - and these are the exact traits we need in event horses.

One reason New Zealand breds are fashionable in eventing these days is because they share the original great bloodlines like War Admiral and Nearco, but they have continued to be bred for stamina, distance, and longevity.

Second thing I like is his damsire Round Table - he is one of the "Chefs" - that is the most influential sires, and he contributes {S}, or Solid, which indicates distance.

One of the intersting things about him is that his breeding is very balanced across lines - most horses I've looked at with "good" bloodlines like his have more inbreeding - that is their quality is coming from the same few horses if you go back 8-9 generations.

He has one full sibling - Al Fijar, born in 1993 -wonder where that horse is now?

Jeanne

can't re-
May. 8, 2002, 11:02 AM
Thanks Janet

I understand the x and y thing just not why they don't show SECRETARIAT as having a big heart in War Secretary's pedigree. They do show it when you pull up SECRETARIAT's pedigree. I thought it would at least show it up until SECRETARIAT's dam.
On the side, WS's dam, Flack Flack is shown as having a big heart.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As is our confidence, so is our capacity.
~W. Hazlitt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

arnika
May. 8, 2002, 11:18 AM
My goodness, this is getting fascinating! Just for fun I looked up my Tb broodmare-Little Grata (born in 1982) and she traces to War Admiral, Tom Fool, Turn-to, and Nasrullah-thus to Nearco.

Does anyone know anything about another Triple Crown winner named Omaha in her pedigree?

The funny thing is I bought her from a photo ad because I liked her movement. Apparently no one else was interested because she was 15. We've had two foals(fillies that we kept /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) and she still goes fox hunting, jumps and basically runs eveyone into the ground at 20!

She won 92,000 on the track and retired sound and my vet and farrier keep telling me I'm wasting her by not breeding her to Tbs. I keep telling THEM I know nothing about their bloodlines and which would be good to cross her with. What would you all recommend for a good starting place? This book by Haun (first name?) is it titled Xfactor 1? I'd love to find it and use it, along with my own eye and common sense to find a stallion to cross with her hoping for an eventing prospect.

ASC
May. 8, 2002, 11:19 AM
Thanks for sharing your amazing insights. We think Riv's a wonderful horse. I, too, wonder where Al Fijar is and what he's doing!

Janet
May. 8, 2002, 11:20 AM
If you look at a pedigree which has Princequillo on both the top and bottom, you will see that he is underlined when the horse could have inherited the X chromosome from him in that path, and not when it couldn't.

FairWeather
May. 8, 2002, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now, on Run Apalachee Run, hey, Lisamarie8, since you don't know much about TB pedigrees, wanna sell this mare? Just without digging very far, she's got Double Jay in a position to pass the gene (although unmarked by Del Mar -- odd) Mahmoud, bred to a double copy mare in a position to pass the gene, she goes back to Domino, again in a position to pass through Gala Bell, and Sandury, on the bottom side is a daughter of War Admiral. Plus, she's got lots of other good horses scattered throughout. She crosses well with Quarter Horses? <sigh -- that's what I want to find eventually is a well bred TB to cross with QHs >
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd love to have this mare /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just checked one of my horses, Winnepesaukee and It looks like his dam carries the gene...can someone take a look?

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Seven
May. 8, 2002, 11:33 AM
The more I learn about my horse's pedigree, the more amazed I am by him! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I knew he was wonderful for me...but I love learning about the TB lines and seeing how many important ones pop up in his pedigree. Fun stuff! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Carol Ames
May. 8, 2002, 12:13 PM
One of my favorite quotes from the German breeding industry, which I've found to be very true is :"Good breeding shortens training time" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifie., they come "out of the shell" knowing what to do

Lisamarie8
May. 8, 2002, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
Originally Posted by Bensmom:
Now, on Run Apalachee Run, hey, Lisamarie8, since you don't know much about TB pedigrees, wanna sell this mare? Just without digging very far, she's got Double Jay in a position to pass the gene (although unmarked by Del Mar -- odd) Mahmoud, bred to a double copy mare in a position to pass the gene, she goes back to Domino, again in a position to pass through Gala Bell, and Sandury, on the bottom side is a daughter of War Admiral. Plus, she's got lots of other good horses scattered throughout. She crosses well with Quarter Horses? <sigh -- that's what I want to find eventually is a well bred TB to cross with QHs[/list]

I'd love to have this mare /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just checked one of my horses, Winnepesaukee and It looks like his dam carries the gene...can someone take a look?

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Y'all are BOTH going to hate me when i tell you I could have bought this mare for about 2k 3 years ago...

But Bensmom to answer your question, she crosses FABULOUSLY with QH's...Ask Fairweather, she's seen the result /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ozzy is a blessing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Here are a bunch of pics for a topic on JB's porch i just put together.


Pics of Ozzy, Chi-Chi (Run Appalache Run) and Ozzy's Daddy (http://pub69.ezboard.com/fgeneralhorsediscussionsandmorefrm2.showMessage?to picID=5310.topic&index=11)

[This message was edited by lisamarie8 on May. 08, 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

mountain girl
May. 9, 2002, 05:53 AM
Would anyone please check Del Mar for my mare Emmy Moi's chances of having the big heart and (or) passing it on. She has all four of the big heart stallions in her pedigree. She is also sired by Stage Door Johnny, who, according to the PHR Directory, appears as a broodmare sire for jumping athletes, such as Worth The Trust, Tashiling, and Spend A Dollar. I hope she will pass on the X chromo for "jump"! She is a great eventer and hunter and I have booked her to A Fine Romance, who is also on Del Mar. My problem is that I am on Webtv, which doesn't seem to have the capability to show the X on the pedigree. Thanks a million in advance to anyone who might check for me! Holly

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

Badger
May. 9, 2002, 06:26 AM
Thanks Bensmom for your info on my mare. I've only bred her once, but her son is outstanding and if I can stand to let her out of work for a while I may breed her again next year.

Mountain Girl: I had a Stage Door Johnny grandson, he's known as an excellent sporthorse bloodline. My gelding had a great mind (the world's most laid back TB?) and some of the best feet you've ever seen on TB. Beautiful "daisy cutter" show hunter movement. I hunted him for several seasons (including galloping on rocks and gravel roads) and never had to shoe his back feet the whole time I had him. I sold to him to a friend who does hunt shows and events and loves him to bits, it's a great home for life for him.

I looked up Emmy Moi and it shows that Stage Door Johnny does have the x-factor gene, so he would have definitely given that to his daughter. Emmy Moi's dam may carry it as the granddam Bunny Grey carries it and both Bunny Grey's sire and dam had it, making it possible that Bunny Grey had a double copy. Emmy Moi also goes back to Tudor Minstrel through Tudor Melody, a known sport horse line.

[This message was edited by Badger on May. 09, 2002 at 10:30 AM.]

mountain girl
May. 9, 2002, 08:42 AM
Thank you Badger, for researching Emmy's pedigree and for sharing about your Stage Door Johnny grandson. It was as if you were describing Emmy! I am so crazy about her! She was a great brave bold eventer, but sadly, due to her racing career, is not sound enough to move up the levels. So, now we stick to hunters, and she does have great movement and jump for that. Give her a job to do, and her focus, smarts, and determination are awesome. I hope to breed another awesome sporthorse from her and hope it has the big heart that I think she has! Holly

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

SGray
May. 9, 2002, 09:32 AM
When I pull her pedigree up - I'm seeing 30 out of 62 (5 generation) as blue - I see entire bottomside in 4th generation in blue - there isn't a red line anywhere

would someone doublecheck for me?

SGray
May. 9, 2002, 10:23 AM
in fact, in a 4 generation pedigree there are only 6 black, the rest are blue

kmk
May. 9, 2002, 10:27 AM
ok what all do you need to look up my horse and give me your fantastic insite? His name is saucy tai, out of convention(IRE) out of THe mare Ms. sweet and saucy.... I know secretariet is in there pretty close.. Will you help me??

kmk

SGray
May. 9, 2002, 10:34 AM
Dancedale by Ribblesdale (blue) out of Dancing Croon (blue) [Dancedale is not listed]

Cloud Breaker [is listed, in blue] by Traffic Breaker out of Stormy Way

Badger
May. 9, 2002, 10:41 AM
Windswept R Ana: the only "x-factor" underline that shows in her pedigree is a red one 5-generations back at "Jennifer." Double Jay (good eventer line) does show up 3 generations back (tail male).

Barli Jean has 7 red-underlined "x-factor" carriers. This is an older horse, and had Teddy, a great sport horse bloodline, a ways back.

Saucy Tai's dam side does not show up, and no red-underlining appears in her sire's pedigree. Though Secretariat had the x-factor gene, he appears in the pedigree through the tail male line, so he did not pass on the x-factor.

SGray
May. 9, 2002, 10:51 AM
what did I do wrong in my query? I put in the name, indicated yes in the X-factor pull-down, then asked for a 5 generation pedigree - all I'm seeing is blue and black

Janet
May. 9, 2002, 11:14 AM
What browser are you using?

Look at my post on pag 2. For me, it worked on IE but not on Netscape.

Bensmom
May. 9, 2002, 11:53 AM
I'm finally back in the office -- Ben decided to colic and *choke* last night so it was off the to the clinic for us. <sigh> His large heart won't do us any good if he chokes . . .

The following site has info from Marianna Haun's research:

http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/articles.htm

A couple of her articles on the x-factor as it relates to QHs are on the site, as well as links to others. Though this one ties it mostly into the QH breed it has fabulous explanations of how it works.

The two books are:

The X Factor: What It Is & How to Find It: The Relationship Between Inherited Heart Size and Racing Performance (1)

and

Understanding the Power of the X Factor : Patterns of Heart Score and Performance (2)

I was abbreviating them x-factor 1 & 2 yesterday.

They are both available from several sources, including the publisher, The Russell Meerdink Company (www.horseinfo.com (http://www.horseinfo.com)) and Amazon.

I'm going to print some of these pages and take a look at more pedigrees this afternoon /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks guys for making this such an interesting topic!

Libby

tle
May. 9, 2002, 12:12 PM
Hey Libby... what about posting those physical characteristics you were talking about? Geez, I can't remember which horse it was for... sorry.

Hope Ben's feeling better!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 11... Why the tears? I think it's "Message from Home" time... Neleh or Robert gets the axe.

GO RED WINGS!!!

Bensmom
May. 9, 2002, 01:15 PM
Ok, now that my staff meeting is over <gag>

Several mentions of the physcial characteristics are scattered in both books, and my original intent was to make a list and to search through the books to find them all so I would make sure not to miss something, but I haven't done that yet, so here is the quick rundown, from chapter 8 in the second book:

She says that they began following the ears of lines, after Penney Chenery (owner and breeder of Secretariat) noticed that a mare used in the project had "Secretariat's ears." A geneticist at UoK involved in the project beineves that the ears are a physical marker for a genetic trait on the x chromosome. The ears can come up the female line from a long way off. She states that it has become a shortcut for measuring horses.

She says that the difference in ears can be difficult to spot, but the small rounded ear of Mahmoud is easy. When viewed from the front, the ear has a leaf-like quality which is unmistakable. Northern Dancer, Halo, Spectacular Bid, and Fusiachi Pegasus all have this ear.

Princequillo: small curly ears, in addition, they will have a similar hip, eye and nostrils.

Blue Larkspur -- I can't put my hands on the info on those horses.

War Admiral: medium sculptured ears. There is more about physical similarities in the chapter on War Admiral, and that is Buzzy's large heart, so I was thrilled to find that:

Very high level of energy (gee, and the vet stated yesterday that he isn't sure he's ever dealt with a horse as engergetic as Buzz!), size: War Admiral was only 15.2 and dark bay -- supposedly the size and color of his broodmare size, Sweep. (Buzz is dark bay and *almost* 15.2) Medium size sculptured ears, large eyes, plenty of space in between his jaws, and a fine muzzle with over sized nostrils. (yep, Buzz has all of the above -- the space inbetween his jaws is astonishly wide and deep and his nostrils are great big for the size of his head). Prominent withers, beautifully sloped shoulder, long forearms and short cannons. (yep, got those two, though not a skinny wither, but quite well built and well, prominent) Hard to keep weight on.

Horses with War Admirals head: Escena, Lemon Drop Kid, Tale of Two hearts, Desert Secret, Affirmed, Surfside, Seattle Slew, Silver Charm and Cigar.

The eyes, interestingly enough, are set where they can see more easily down the lane. The head, top line and front end pass to these horses. Some have been taller, but typically they are between 15.3 and 16 hh. War Admiral was said to travel more like Sweep than Man O'War, which makes sense if you consider that the front end follows the x expressed. There is an unusual way of going with teh front leg rising higher from the forearm than is usually seen (This is especially exciting, since one of the reasons we liked Buzz's movement was this exactly. He lifts *up* with his forearm and shoulder, we hoped making it easier for him to do dressage)

All of the above info is lifted expressly from the second x-factor book, but there is no chart available in one place to find the physical characteristics. I will have to go through both books carefully to find them all.

Because of the chaos yesterday, I haven't got any new shots of Buzz (this head shot was taken when I first got him, and his coat was still straggly and he had um, bad hair) but I'll post one jpg of him and then one of Cigar that first caught my eye and see if y'all see the resemblance. I see similar "expression" about them. The better photos I hopefully can post tomorrow.

Libby

Bensmom
May. 9, 2002, 01:18 PM
Okay, so I loaded the wrong one of Buzz, so I'll put up another of Buzz and then one of Cigar . . .

Bensmom
May. 9, 2002, 01:19 PM
And Cigar . .

Badger
May. 9, 2002, 01:22 PM
A google search turned up an article explaining the x-factor and talking in particular about it in QH lines as well as TB:

http://www.horsesonly.com/crossroads/xfactor/heart-1.htm

Bensmom: any talk of a particularly deep "heartgirth" to house that big ol' heart? My mare has a deep heartgirth, which helps take up my long legs.

JER
May. 9, 2002, 05:24 PM
Libby, thanks for posting the info about other physical traits, but I was surprised that they were mostly observational, and not at all scientific. Put another way, 'leaf-like ears' is a rather subjective determination -- there has to be some kind of standardized criteria for classifying these ear types as well as an actual statistical correlation between the ear type and the large heart (which I do know there's an index for measuring, I think Dr. Norm Rantanen started doing this from ultrasounds in the early/mid 1980s).

The reason I'm saying this: instead of speculating whether your TB has the large heart/X-factor, you can always do an ultrasound if you want to know for sure.

EventGurlie
May. 9, 2002, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:


Interestingly enough, on first glance, like the other upper level event horses that I've checked, he appears to have the indicators that he has a larger than normal heart. Pretty cool :-)

Libby

[This message was edited by Bensmom on May. 08, 2002 at 10:05 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe that is cool! my new greenie that i just bought has pretty impressive blloodlines never got to a race though hehe...but my dad is all into the racehorse stuff and he was all researching the pedigree and she is infact a double copy mare!!! hehe that is pretty neat...except...my dad is going to jynx me cuz he goes "i hope Addie goes lame so i can breed her" he obviously wants to start his race future with her haha..im like nooooo get away from my horse i need to event her first!!

~Nicole~

AllyCat
May. 9, 2002, 09:49 PM
I thought I had this all figured out. Maybe someone can help me.

If both the sire and dam carry the gene, shouldn't the resultant female offspring be double copy for the gene? Also, my mare has Princequillo on the top, but I don't see the X-factor showing up with him. It only shows up on the bottom with Dr. Fager (single copy) and Courtesy (single copy). The resultant daughter is shown as only a single copy. Shouldn't she be a double copy?

Then if the mare is a double copy, her son should carry the gene and my mare (his daughter) would also be a single copy?

I had to add her sire and dam when I put her on the website. Maybe that is why it's not showing up?

If anyone has time to figure this out or really understands it, feel free to drop me a line.

This is a really interesting thread. Maybe we'll get as much going here as on the Parelli/O'Connor thread

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Sounds like we all have some awfully nice horses even if they don't carry the gene. JDufort--I liked you post that even without the gene, the bloodlines are impressive due to the horses and their minds and conformations!

Badger
May. 10, 2002, 05:01 AM
The gene is carried on the x chromosome. The stallion is xy and the mare is xx. If the stallion has the gene, it is never passed to his sons by him (he gives his sons his y) but is always passed to his daughters (he gives his daughters his x where the gene resides). If the dam carries a single copy of the gene, then it only appears on one of her x chromosomes. Since she has two x chromosomes and only passes one on to each foal, there is a 50% chance for each foal to get the x chromosome that carries the gene, and a 50% chance that she will pass on the x chromosome that does NOT carry the gene.

In this scenario, (stallion carries gene on his x and mare carries gene on only one of her two x chromosomes) then all resulting colts from this mating have a 50% chance of carrying the gene (won't get if from sire but a 50/50 chance from dam) and all resulting fillies are guaranteed to carry the gene (because the sire will definitely give her his x that carries the gene) AND there is a 50/50 chance that the filly will be a double copy (depending on whether or not the dam passes on the x that has the gene or the x that does not).

If the resulting filly IS a double copy, then ALL her foals will get the gene (regardless of the stallion), and anytime a double copy dam is bred to a stallion with the gene, ALL resulting foals will get the gene and ALL resulting fillies will be double copies.

As far as the x-factor being highlighted in the Del Mar Pedigree site, they only highlight it if the horse was in a possition to possibly have carried it down to a queried horse. For example, if you look up my mare, Luminary Princess, she is not highlighted and neither are her dam or sire. BUT it shows that either dam or sire MIGHT have inherited the gene if passed on by the highlighted granddams, and so they MIGHT have passed the gene on to my mare. In fact, there are a bunch of horses in her pedigree that are not highlighted but have a 50% chance of carrying the gene: Miss Citation MAY have been a double copy, and even if only a single copy (she was at least that) then Proper Notice MAY have carried the gene (if Miss Citation WAS a double copy then Proper Notice DID carry the gene, then Duran's single copy MAY have been a double copy then Alittlebitearly would definitely have carried then gene instead of MAY have carried the gene). Island Sultan MAY have it, Tuetra MAY have a double copy if she got Courtesy's gene through Continue. In fact, my mare may not carry it at all, she may have one copy, or she may have a double copy. I can trace several routes that may have brought the gene down to her.

More thoughts: since the x chromosome is significantly bigger than the y, then actually the dam is passing on about 70% of the genetic material to colts (she gives the x and stallion gives the smaller y) and both dam and sire each give the same amount (through x chromosomes) to fillies. HOWEVER, the mare also gives a bit more physical components because it is her physical system, plasma, etc. that is supporting the foal and transferring through the placenta and coursing through the foal. There is an argument that if you trace the tail female line (the horses that appear on the bottom branch of the pedigree: dam, granddam, great granddam, etc.) that your filly carries some physical/blood/plasma that has been passed/shared all the way down through those generations of mares.

The tail male line (all the sires along the top branch of the pedigree) are the most important males in the pedigree because they all share the exact same Y chromosome. NONE of the other males in the entire pedigree ever pass a Y down to your horse. All those other Ys have "deadended" as they were not passed on in the pedigree: If you look, all the other Ys end somewhere as a mare appears in the pedigree and that sire line's Y isn't carried farther in the pedigree. It is the tail male who's Y makes it all the way down to the resulting male foal.

Hope this is not too confusing! It's early.

Bensmom
May. 10, 2002, 06:54 AM
Badger -- thanks for the detailed explanation on the probabilities -- that is the part that makes my head spin.

And my question about the Del Mar site's highlighting of the x-factor is what Allycat mentioned. There are some horses that appear in Haun's research as definite large hearted horses that appear to be in a position to pass the gene that either won't be highlighted, or won't be listed as double copy even though they seem like they "ought" to be double copy mares.

And I agree that the correlation between the physical traits and the large heart does sound a bit unscientific, but that is the way it was listed -- I'm not sure if there is a more definite listing of the statistics or not.

The question of doing the ultrasound is also interesting -- I've been discussing that with my vet, and he said he'll have to learn the actual technique for doing it -- it is described in Haun's book, and sounds a bit complicated. It is on my list of things to do, however, as soon as the boys quit having such expensive emergencies!

Libby (grrr)

NancyL
May. 10, 2002, 08:03 AM
So, if my horse's pedigree on DelMar has all blue underlines on the whole bottom line, he probably has the x-factor? Did I read that correctly?

Oh, his name is "Shafouri" with the (IRE) designation.

He did race, winning about $80,000 (converting the english winnings into US$) and he raced until he was 7 1/2. He is a fantastic horse -- very talented over fences, easy to ride, great temperment, and learns quickly. Although he is now a gelding, science has provided me the chance to breed him in the future /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
May. 10, 2002, 08:13 AM
If your (male) horse's dam is underlined in blue (double copy), he definitely has it. If she is underlined in red (at least a single copy) he has at least a 50% chance.

NancyL
May. 10, 2002, 08:17 AM
Thanks,

I guess I had it backwards when I looked at the pedigree and then tried to remember/decipher all the info I had read here.

I thought the red underline meant a definate; but as I always say "I am far from perfect"!

EventGurlie
May. 11, 2002, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NancyL:


I thought the red underline meant a definate; but as I always say "I am far from perfect"!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When i did it on Del mar...at the top it says Highlight: X-chromosome...so i clicked thtat and it had everything that carried down in a darker colored background...i hope thats what we were supposed to look for lol!

~Nicole~

AllyCat
May. 11, 2002, 12:19 PM
We just went over this stuff in Anatomy/Phys. a couple weeks ago and this helps solidify it for the final! Guess I'm really confused about what double copy/single copy means in terms of the designation on the website.

By your explanation, the single-copy mares and stallions carry it on one X chromo. Stallions only have one X so they will always pass it on to a daughter, but not a son.

With the single copy mares, they are only going to pass it to 50% of the offspring, male or female. (wait a minute, drawing Punnet square). Okay, 50% of the male offspring and 50% of the females. So a single copy male and a single copy female mating will produce 25% double copy females, 25% single copy females, 25% single copy males, and 25% non-carrier males. Right?

So that would explain why she could have a non-carrier male from a mating of one single-copy male and female in the lineage.

What I guess I don't understand is how does it know? I mean the computer? How does it know that particular male offspring was the carrier or not? Is that where the X-chromosome feature comes into play? I didn't understand that part, but now it makes sense.

(Watch I'll go look at it again, decide I STILL don't know what I am talking about, and come back with another barrage of questions). I'll look at some of the websites the others have posted.

Badger, do both our mares have Courtesy in their pedigrees? They're relatives!

Thanks everyone--this is fascinating.

Heinz 57
May. 11, 2002, 04:51 PM
im a little confused.... ive been hunting around on cruz' pedigree for about an hour, and am finding doubles and singles all over the place. HOWEVER, i STILL havent determined if HE has the possibility (or HAS) the large heart gene. anyone want to help??? his reg. name is Sum Dandy(1986, b., G ought to get you to the right place). Im just a little confused but am going to do more research. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifthx

if you dont like my driving, get off the sidewalk!

Fred
May. 11, 2002, 06:22 PM
would there be a difference in the 'heritability' of this trait?

Bensmom
May. 11, 2002, 09:02 PM
I haven't had a chance to check out others pedigrees yet, but Fred, there are differences in the inheritability of the trait in two ways. The first is obviously, stallions can't pass it to their sons, only to daughters. Mares can pass it to either sons or daughters. The other way it can differ depends on which x is dominant. Interestingly enough, I haven't seen any statement about whether the trait is considered dominant or recessive. Rather, the discussion of which x is dominant seems to consider the dominant gene a roll of the dice, rather than stating say, "brown eyes are recessive and blue eyes are dominant."

My trainer has an appendix QH who may have the trait == it appears that his mother may have passed the large heart to him, if she is in fact, a double copy mare. His full sister, however, is probably a double copy mare herself -- possibility that she got it from mom, and she would have gotten it from dad. The sire of these horses was sadly put down several weeks ago, and I haven't heard if they actually weighed his heart, but he is suspected to have it, and is mentioned in the second x-factor book. It would be interesting to see how large his heart actually was.

As someone noted way back, unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to test or by autopsy. I would love to know for sure, but I'll chose the testing by ultrasound method, rather than the alternative!

Libby

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 05:39 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NancyL:
So, if my horse's pedigree on DelMar has all blue underlines on the whole bottom line, he probably has the x-factor? Did I read that correctly?

Oh, his name is "Shafouri" with the (IRE) designation.

Nancy, I looked up your horse and you are not reading this correctly. Del Mar puts all mares in a horse's pedigree in blue type with thin underlines, and all stallions in a pedigree in black type with thin underline. This underline is the HTML code for "click here to get this horse's pedigree." This is NOT the x-factor underline. The x-factor underline is heavy red or blue. In your horse's pedigree, Artic Rullah in the 5th generation is the only red underline, and there is not heavy blue (double x-factor) underline, so it is unlikely that your horse has the gene based on Del Mar.

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moose:
I have a mare that was never raced and not listed at this site, that is out of Nellie Win and Banner Bob. Nellie Win's full sister-Creme Caromel, was also bred to Banner Bob, producing a Colt named San Rocco, which lights up as a double copy in blue,for the x-factor.

Would it be safe for me to believe that there is chance this mare may carry this gene as well?

[This message was edited by Moose on May. 12, 2002 at 12:50 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Moose, I looked up San Rocco and you are looking at the blue underline wrong. See my response above to Nancy. However, in this pedigree there are two "blue x-factor" horses (Bloodroot and Bimlett) and quite a few "red x-factor horses (Bimelech, Mar-kell, No Robbery, Lismara). Lismara had a 50/50 chance of passing the gene on to her daughters Creme Caromel OR Nellie Win, who each had a 50/50 chance of passing the gene (IF received) on to any son or daughter, including your horse. So there is a, hmm, about 25 percent chance your horse carries it.

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 05:59 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AllyCat:

By your explanation, the single-copy mares and stallions carry it on one X chromo. Stallions only have one X so they will always pass it on to a daughter, but not a son.

With the single copy mares, they are only going to pass it to 50% of the offspring, male or female. (wait a minute, drawing Punnet square). Okay, 50% of the male offspring and 50% of the females. So a single copy male and a single copy female mating will produce 25% double copy females, 25% single copy females, 25% single copy males, and 25% non-carrier males. Right?

YES

So that would explain why she could have a non-carrier male from a mating of one single-copy male and female in the lineage.

YES

What I guess I don't understand is how does it know? I mean the computer? How does it know that particular male offspring was the carrier or not? Is that where the X-chromosome feature comes into play? I didn't understand that part, but now it makes sense.

I HAVE NO IDEA! I'm just trying to interpret the Del Mar info, but I don't know how the info was input or how the programming works. Sorry!

Alleycat, what is the name of your horse so I can look it up in the database? I'm curious about our "cousins."

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
If your (male) horse's dam is underlined in blue (double copy), he definitely has it. If she is underlined in red (at least a single copy) he has at least a 50% chance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. And just to expand/clarify: A male horse CAN'T have a double copy, as the gene is carried on the x-chromosome and a male (xy) only has one x-chromosome. Therefore a male who has the gene will be underlined in red (single copy) and never blue. A dam who carried a single copy (one x has it, one doesn't) will have the red underline, and a dam the has the double copy (both x chromosomes have it) will have the heavy blue underline.

EXAMPLE: look up the mare "Caps and Bells" who is a double copy mare with numerous double and single copy horses in her pedigree. The underlining at the bottom of the "box" in the horses pedigree is the x-factor indicator.

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moose:

This may have been already noted, but no mares at the site are listed as double copies, I imagine because the xx will always mean there is a random chance they have an opposite that can pop up from their history.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

???? I don't understand this statement. There are plenty of mares at the site listed as double copies, and ALL their offspring will receive the gene from them and be at least single copy offspring (if the sire passes on the gene as well, the fillies will be double copies). Look up the mare Cap and Bells to see a double copy mare with numerous double and single copy ancestors.

Badger
May. 12, 2002, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Bay and the Brunette:
im a little confused.... ive been hunting around on cruz' pedigree for about an hour, and am finding doubles and singles all over the place. HOWEVER, i STILL havent determined if HE has the possibility (or HAS) the large heart gene. anyone want to help??? his reg. name is Sum Dandy(1986, b., G ought to get you to the right place). Im just a little confused but am going to do more research. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifthx

if you dont like my driving, get off the sidewalk!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The closest single-copy x-factor is 4-generations back with Best Risk. There is a possibility that the gene passed down to Sum Dandy, but the odds are not great.

AllyCat
May. 12, 2002, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badger:

Alleycat, what is the name of your horse so I can look it up in the database? I'm curious about our "cousins."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badger, my horse's name is Question Please. She looks so much like her paternal grandsire Round Table, who does not carry the gene that I am thinking she does not. But who knows? When I asked her, she said that it was a dumb question and refused to answer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bensmom: I am assuming this is a dominant trait based on the heritability pattern. It may also be codominant in that a single-copy mare has a larger heart than a non-carrier mare, but smaller than a double-copy mare heart. Don't know what that means for stallions though, and I'm just throwing that out to add confusion to the melee. It's just a theory. I'd be interested to hear about what you learn from the books.

sprite
May. 12, 2002, 06:42 PM
My old gelding was a Buckpasser grandson, and had that lovely head and ears that Tom Fool passed along. I have seen some pics of Tom Fool and Buckpasser in a similar pose and they look SO much alike in their expression- easy to tell they are father and son.

My current mare has a lot of Native Dancer blood, and looks MUCH like him, in a feminine way- even has the same facial markings (all grayed out now though).

OK, so im not sure where im going with this post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sorry for rambling, LOL. If someone could look at my horse's pedigree and tell me what they think that would be great, for some reason I seem to be hopeless with pedigree analysis. I had a hard enough time with dosage, without trying to keep X-factors straight!!

mare's name is Singing Native (Mill Native x Singing Gypsy-The Minstrel).
Thanks!!


PS...the person with Riverdale...did you/do you board at TLC? If so, I remember your horse! Nice boy!!

Indecision may or may not be my problem.

Janet
May. 12, 2002, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> More thoughts: since the x chromosome is significantly bigger than the y, then actually the dam is passing
on about 70% of the genetic material to colts (she gives the x and stallion gives the smaller y) and both
dam and sire each give the same amount (through x chromosomes) to fillies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The X may contribute 70% of the X-Y combination, but there are many more chromosomes (at least 20, I forget the actual number), so the dam contributes less than 5% more genetic material than the sire to her male offspring.

Janet
May. 12, 2002, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When i did it on Del mar...at the top it says Highlight: X-chromosome...so i clicked thtat and it had
everything that carried down in a darker colored background...i hope thats what we were supposed to look
for lol! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you click on highlight X chromosome, it highlights all the horses from which the end horse MIGHT possibly inherit an X chromosome. But it has nothing to do with whether or not the X chromosome has the "X-factor" for the large heart.

Janet
May. 12, 2002, 08:09 PM
Singing Native has a bit more than a 75% chance of having the "X-factor" for a large heart.

klr
May. 12, 2002, 08:49 PM
Im wading into TB breeding but am having difficulty getting started; what is the title of the Haun book referred to? What other books could I read to further my knowlege base?


Big Question: My tb mare "Story Time" has Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral an the dams side as wall as Nearco-Royal Charger, Eight Thirty, Polynesian, Man o'War, and Menow also on the bottom--how does this add up to you?

Other question to those 'In the Know': I'm breding thes mare to Loyal Pal soon--does this seem a reasonable cross?
Any input appreciated

ASC
May. 13, 2002, 08:44 AM
Yes - Riverdale was at TLC. We bought him from Laura in April 2001 and moved him to "our" farm. He's my mom's horse. We think he's quite the nice boy -- if you don't mind the occasional "Jaws" impression!

Thanks for the nice words about him. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

findeight
May. 13, 2002, 09:34 AM
For Bensmom and you other gurus.......
OK I looked up my mare March's Promise, selected for x factor then clicked highlight x cromosome and it did highlight. In fact it lit up, including herself.
Did I do it right?

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Janet
May. 13, 2002, 10:03 AM
Nope.

Highlight X cromosome does jsut that- highlights all the potential sources of the X chromosome. Of course your horse "lit up", she has an (actually 2) X chromosome(s).

It has little to do with having the X-factor for the large heart.

If you select "yes" for "X-fator" in the pulldowm menu BEFORE you search for the horse, AND you are using the "right" browser, you will get red and/or blue underlining (of the whole box, not just the name. If you are using the wrong browser, you won't get anything different from when you select "no".

In the case of March's Promise, the closest ancesteor who MIGHT have passed on the X-factor is her great grand dam, Chealsea's Proof, who had at least a single copy. So your horse has about a 12% chance of carrying the X-factor for a large heart.

Bensmom
May. 13, 2002, 12:00 PM
I've got a stack of all these posts printed on my desk and I will go through and ferret out all the questions -- but there is tons of great info on here -- thanks guys!

Now, one thing I'm finding about the Del Mar site. Since the x-factor info was not inputted on the basis of horses that actually were actually tested, I'm not sure how the computer chooses which horses to highlight. I'm finding that some of the horses that appear in the books as carriers are highlighted, but as they descend through relatively unknown horses, the highlighting will disappear. This doesn't make sense to me. Especially where you will sometimes see a double copy mare bred to a single copy stallion and the resulting offspring will be, at best, highlighted as single copy. Which really isn't possible if the mares two x's and the stallions one x all have the gene, the resultant female baby has to be double copy.

The fact that some horses were unraced and are not recognized names would not keep them from having the gene, but it does make me wonder if the Del Mar site uses some sort of performance criteria, or doesn't have horses past a certain date listed.

I've been finding the factor in the pedigrees, and then tracing it forward as long as the connection remains through females and then guessing that there will be therefore, a possibility of the gene, rather than relying on Del Mar's underlining.

As several people have noted that the only way to know for sure is to have the testing done. I know that ASC mentioned having a sonogram of her horse's heart and I wondered if you'd mind sharing whether having it done was terribly expensive? Since my vets haven't done it yet, they haven't given me a guesstimate of cost. If I had a mare, or if I hadn't gelded Buzzy, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but since checking the boys is just to backup my research, it will have to wait until I have a closer to zero balance /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Libby

Janet
May. 13, 2002, 12:27 PM
Conversely, there are som case where the Delmar site shows the female offspring of a single copy sire and a single copy dam as a DOUBLE copy mare. That is possible (25% probability), but not assured. And in MOST cases it shows the female offspring of a single copy sire and a single copy dam as a single copy, as expected. Do they have some other evidence that those mares (e.g Milan Mill, out of single copy Virginia Water by single copy Princequillo) has a double copy?

I found those example when I looked at Singing Native.

ASC
May. 13, 2002, 12:36 PM
We took Riverdale to visit an equine cardiologist at Purdue University. Cost was $180 -- minimal in my mind. At a teaching hospital like Purdue, you get access to amazing equipment and minds for very minimal amounts of money. We also had a rather large audience of students who needed to learn about heart murmurs.

I'd encourage you to look for an equine/large animal cardiologist at a major university near you. In our area, both Purdue and the University of Illinois have equine cardiologists on staff.

sprite
May. 13, 2002, 07:49 PM
You know, I actually rode Riverdale once several years ago, had forgotten- he was very green at the time, but SUCH a nice boy, well mannered- glad to hear you have him, and good luck!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Janet, thanks, it looked to me like she (Singing Native) might possibly have the X factor, but wasnt sure. She is a big hearted mare, even if she is not actually "big hearted". /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Indecision may or may not be my problem.

Bensmom
May. 17, 2002, 08:59 AM
back through the horses listed here that someone else hasn't ably answered questions on /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gotspots: First, I corrected a couple of things in Del Mar and got Chantilly Gray to show up in the TB database. Assuming that their x-factor indicator doesn't know everything (i.e. I still don't know how it can show the gene *not* passing along, since most of these horses haven't been measured) there is a good chance that Spot's dam does have it. The x-factor indicator lights up on both the top and bottom of her pedigree. Since it only underlines places where it would be in a position to pass it along, and it shows up in both the top and the bottom, there are three possibilities for her: no gene, single-copy and double copy.

Very interesting stuff. :-)

I'll keep digging on some of the other horses mentioned here /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby (really better than work!)

Bensmom
May. 17, 2002, 09:15 AM
klr -- I am such a novice with TB pedigrees, and am really out of my area of expertise in evaluating crosses, but it looks as if you mare has a chance of carrying the large heart gene, as does Loyal Pal.

So many other factors go into making a good cross, though, that I can't say for sure whether this factor would figure in or be an important consideration.

I can say that breeding to any of Denny's stallions seems a reasonable cross to me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Someday, someday, I want a Reputed Testamony baby /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby (who needs to be forced to chant "No more horses" hundreds of times a day)

GotSpots
May. 17, 2002, 09:16 AM
Libby -- thanks! I think this stuff is really interesting. I had been trying to do it from her breeding and trying to track the names and wasn't coming up with even the possibility, so it's interesting to see what Del Mar thinks. I don't know whether he has it or not as I'm not good enough at picking out the physical links (and he's got that zany spotted thing going on anyway!)

My goal for this weekend is to pick up a copy of the book on this and dive in. Hmmm, UCC versus equine breeding analysis...that's a no brainer.

mellsmom
May. 17, 2002, 10:54 AM
Important thing to remember about TB racing. For every thrid person you'll find another theory. You should see people at the sales. Shrug?! Some people use the dosage index as a guideline. Funny thing about dosage index. Once a horse wins, the doasge index changes on it's sire and dam because they've produced a winner ;-)

Bensmom needs to be wary of Buzzy, ... I think he's related to Blue... who was a nut case. War Admiral, Nazrullah on top and bottom, Swaps, and about 5 other decent TB's and his sire was an excellent show hunter sire.

Now what I really want....a gelding.... out of Fantastic Light by an affirmed mare. Heart, attitude, temperament and flash.

Funny thing about the Derby... all along I kept liking that horse and everyone kept trying to talk me out of it. I did like his breeding.
I don't know who dad's pick is for tomoorw though.

mellsmom
May. 17, 2002, 11:03 AM
Bloodstock Research Or BRIS used to produce a TB registration listing on a CD every year. IT's pretty unsophistocated, but you can search by dam's name of registered offspring name. THe CD contains all racing info, dosage index and bloodlines. I lost contact with my source for these cd's a while ago, but I have TB's born 1996 and before. IT's very cool. :-)
Libby I'm suprised that you aren't subscribed to their service. ;-)

Hollyn

klr
May. 18, 2002, 04:55 PM
Im trying to study up on TB breeding, sporthorse breeding--do you have any recomendations for reading material?
PS who is Ben? It appears this is basic forum info and I wont be able to follow along unless I find out! thanks again!!klr

Bensmom
May. 18, 2002, 09:17 PM
Hmmm -- asking about Ben can get you a reallllllly loooooong post from me /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ben is basically, the light of my life /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He's my 9 year old QH -- he was a blown up barrel horse at 3, and I took one look at him on a dark, dank night in January, where all he did was back up in the roundpen and buck, and borrowed his meagre purchase price from my credit union. He's turned out to be terrific /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I didn't intend to make him an event horse, I was hoping some day to foxhunt, but he had other ideas /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He is a racing bred QH that was injured before he was 2 and never made it to the track. He has what appears to be a double copy mom -- that's what got me interested in this research in the beginning.

Now, on to your reading material question. I don't know if I am the best person to answer this -- Hollyn, you have any suggestions? I have learned what I've picked up from the reading I've done on a good many topics from the bios on Secretariat and Ruffian, to the bloodhorse's 100 greatest TBs books. The x-factor books are good -- I gave the link to the publisher on those farther back in the thread.

That is a great question though, and perhaps one we might want to ask over on the racing or sport horse breeding forum. I've just sort of absorbed a lot of this stuff from reading pedigrees and picking people's brains, so I'm not sure of a good list of must reads. Surely someone else out there can help?

Libby

Bensmom
May. 23, 2002, 10:58 AM
It appears that I wasn't paying attention back in March when my AQHA Racing Journal came -- there is a new article by Marianna Haun in it. It has more info on some of the racing quarter horse bloodlines, and even more emphasis on the physical characteristics tracing along with the large heart, though still no "easy find" study chart to find them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Interesting stuff -- I remember on the thread about racing bred QHs that several of us on the board have and event them. For those that have appendix/racing bred quarter horses, how are they in dressage, as a general rule? I'd like to follow up on *yet* another theory /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

mellsmom
May. 24, 2002, 11:41 AM
Well, I would think if you love TB racing that helps :-) Suck it up and buy the Blood Horse. It's expensive, BUT you get a couple of great perks. Tons of great info on horses, racing, etc. You also get a stallion book and an index. The Index has an incredible amt of info in it,like barns, tainers, etc. :-) IF you watch TVG 24/7 like my dad, you'll be even better at knowing who looks good and who doesn't. He even has his favorite commontators and can tell you which person does a better job picking winners at what track.

I WISH I had more info on Mellvin's dad other than he was "you know some TB at the farm"

Hollyn