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Weatherford
Sep. 4, 2000, 01:41 PM
Holly Hays over on the TH.com site wanted a little controversy - so a professional "koolaid" posted the following. Figuring that we here at the CHTHBB's are not adverse to controversy (and Erin & I WILL keep the lid on it - the standard rules apply!), I thought I'd copy it here (with the pro's OK, of course).

I happen to agree with the poster. As I see it, there are several issues:

1) Professionals who do not know, or prefer not to know, the long and short term side effects of the drugs they are administering.

2) Owners who do not KNOW what their trainers are giving their horses.

3) Owners who know but do not care, either because they do not KNOW the tremendously detrimental side effects of such meds or because they simply believe it is necessary to WIN.

Of course, as has been discussed ad infinititum, our current system of judging hunters adds to and aggrevates the problem by not allowing any deviations from "perfection". God forbid your hunter shake its head on course!

So, I am posting this to ask people to consider what the poster is saying and comment - positively or negatively. Some of this has been discussed in other threads, but perhaps we need to put the thoughts all in one place.

Also, more suggestions of HOW we can CHANGE the system...

Thanks.


[b]OK Holly, how about talking about the over use and MISUSE of drug on the A circuit? I mean Equine drugs, not people drugs.

Like, for example, Azium (aka Dex or Dexamethadone) - which, according to some people I know & trust, is the drug of choice - especially when mixed on one of those coctails - for calming hunters & eq horses.

Don't deny it! I am out there, too, and have seen WAAAYYY too many horse PERMANANTELY ruined (to the point of having to be put down) by the overuse and abuse of AZIUM. (And the other drugs.)

This has been noticed by the D&M committee - who proposed last year to regulate the use of Azium (Dexamethazone) by making trainers get a VET signed certificate when it is used on a horse during a horse show. Gee, how difficult is that? If your horse has hives, get the vet to sign and OK it - after all is IS a regulated drug.

No, this couldn't happen. Nope, the TRAINERS didn't want to hae to justify all the DEX they are giving their horses. And they CERTAINLY don't want the owners knowing about this!!!! So the H/J committee canned the rule proposal and made the D&M committee withdraw it.

Oh, no, just a little packet nor a shot of azium won't do much ...

Let's see, what was the hunter last year who "foundered for unknown reasons" was sent to New Bolton and discovered to also have auto immune problems???? (It was put down, much to the owner's heartbreak.)

Or what about the very very expensive 5 yr old whose sale was botched because the x-rays weren't perfect - gee, rotated coffin bones, anyone???

Or the freebie I got once who had foundered, had lymph problems, thyroid problems, and God knows what else. Gee, I wonder why?

Or the GREAT Jumper that was leased as a Big Eq horse - after a few months disappeared from sight. Owner went to the barn to which it had been leased, and the horse was BROKE - very broke. Rotated coffin bones AND auto immune problems....

Isn't there something WRONG with this picture? HEY you out there in big A circuit barns - is YOUR horse going to be NEXT???? Is the reason s/he is sore and you can't figure it out? Or do you just give him MORE drugs to feel better? When the problem is actually because of the drugs? Or the combination of the drugs? Has that coffin bone started it's little movement?

I'm not even going to don a flame proof suit, because I KNOW I am right - actually, I believe the American Horse Shows Association would do very well to ban the use of ALL drugs - and keep in line the the FEI and the rest of the WORLD!!!

Anyone else?[b]

I repeat - [b]standard rules apply.[b] Let's see how people really feel, and what we can do to change the system.

Weatherford
Sep. 4, 2000, 01:41 PM
Holly Hays over on the TH.com site wanted a little controversy - so a professional "koolaid" posted the following. Figuring that we here at the CHTHBB's are not adverse to controversy (and Erin & I WILL keep the lid on it - the standard rules apply!), I thought I'd copy it here (with the pro's OK, of course).

I happen to agree with the poster. As I see it, there are several issues:

1) Professionals who do not know, or prefer not to know, the long and short term side effects of the drugs they are administering.

2) Owners who do not KNOW what their trainers are giving their horses.

3) Owners who know but do not care, either because they do not KNOW the tremendously detrimental side effects of such meds or because they simply believe it is necessary to WIN.

Of course, as has been discussed ad infinititum, our current system of judging hunters adds to and aggrevates the problem by not allowing any deviations from "perfection". God forbid your hunter shake its head on course!

So, I am posting this to ask people to consider what the poster is saying and comment - positively or negatively. Some of this has been discussed in other threads, but perhaps we need to put the thoughts all in one place.

Also, more suggestions of HOW we can CHANGE the system...

Thanks.


[b]OK Holly, how about talking about the over use and MISUSE of drug on the A circuit? I mean Equine drugs, not people drugs.

Like, for example, Azium (aka Dex or Dexamethadone) - which, according to some people I know & trust, is the drug of choice - especially when mixed on one of those coctails - for calming hunters & eq horses.

Don't deny it! I am out there, too, and have seen WAAAYYY too many horse PERMANANTELY ruined (to the point of having to be put down) by the overuse and abuse of AZIUM. (And the other drugs.)

This has been noticed by the D&M committee - who proposed last year to regulate the use of Azium (Dexamethazone) by making trainers get a VET signed certificate when it is used on a horse during a horse show. Gee, how difficult is that? If your horse has hives, get the vet to sign and OK it - after all is IS a regulated drug.

No, this couldn't happen. Nope, the TRAINERS didn't want to hae to justify all the DEX they are giving their horses. And they CERTAINLY don't want the owners knowing about this!!!! So the H/J committee canned the rule proposal and made the D&M committee withdraw it.

Oh, no, just a little packet nor a shot of azium won't do much ...

Let's see, what was the hunter last year who "foundered for unknown reasons" was sent to New Bolton and discovered to also have auto immune problems???? (It was put down, much to the owner's heartbreak.)

Or what about the very very expensive 5 yr old whose sale was botched because the x-rays weren't perfect - gee, rotated coffin bones, anyone???

Or the freebie I got once who had foundered, had lymph problems, thyroid problems, and God knows what else. Gee, I wonder why?

Or the GREAT Jumper that was leased as a Big Eq horse - after a few months disappeared from sight. Owner went to the barn to which it had been leased, and the horse was BROKE - very broke. Rotated coffin bones AND auto immune problems....

Isn't there something WRONG with this picture? HEY you out there in big A circuit barns - is YOUR horse going to be NEXT???? Is the reason s/he is sore and you can't figure it out? Or do you just give him MORE drugs to feel better? When the problem is actually because of the drugs? Or the combination of the drugs? Has that coffin bone started it's little movement?

I'm not even going to don a flame proof suit, because I KNOW I am right - actually, I believe the American Horse Shows Association would do very well to ban the use of ALL drugs - and keep in line the the FEI and the rest of the WORLD!!!

Anyone else?[b]

I repeat - [b]standard rules apply.[b] Let's see how people really feel, and what we can do to change the system.

elghund
Sep. 4, 2000, 01:51 PM
I for one wouldn't ride a horse on the flat that had been drugged, never mind over fences. I want to know that the horse has all its faculties about it. I have allergies and the days when they are bad I don't ride.

If people are giving a horse drugs to calm it then maybe the horse needs more trainig or maybe they need to get a horse they can handle.

Justbay
Sep. 4, 2000, 01:54 PM
OUCH...sadly the case!

Palisades
Sep. 4, 2000, 02:21 PM
I haven't heard of people giving Azium up here...most drugs are banned by the CEF (I think).

The alternative? Let's lunge and/or ride our horses for 6 or 7 hours before their class at the Royal, not give them any feed or water the night before, and then they can perform great "naturally"! There has been at least one horse up here who colicked before their class at the Royal (he showed anyway, 3 hours after it happened) and I'm willing to bet it was because he wasn't watered the night before. What happened to training riders and horses to compete their best?!? Oh, I forgot...people with too much money, not enough knowledge, and no way of handling the expensive hunter they have bought. (Sorry, I know this is off the topic of drugs, but the problem has the same reasoning behind it as the drug issue...anything to win).

I am not saying that everyone on "A" circuit is rich, or can't ride, or that everyone with money treats their horses like this, but the number of those who do is horrifying!

Callie
Sep. 4, 2000, 02:23 PM
I worked at a vet clinic that treated COUNTLESS cases of overmedication disasters. It is baffling to me how many really nice horses are either dead or ruined from something so rediculous. I don't care what everybody else is doing, if you care about the health and well-being of your horses, you will make sure that medications are given 1) for legitimate reasons (not training issues), and 2) under the supervision of an ethical, trustworthy veterinarian (just one vet at a time, please). The "everyday" drugs that are used so freely can and will cause major problems. Trainers are rarely properly knowledgable in pharmacy or chemistry.

Most of the owners of these horses were nowhere to be found (and I assume some were unaware of the truth of the situation), on a rare occasion, a nervous trainer or veterinarian would appear (mostly to figure out who else to blame). In most cases, the horses were dropped off and left with us to sort out the problems (if possible). It was very rare for anybody to come just for a visit. Guess how many owners want to pay to help fix these problems on a horse that may not be able to jump anymore? I've known of one. Guess how many vet techs own washed-up victims of the show world and care for them for years? A lot!

hunterprincez
Sep. 4, 2000, 02:26 PM
It is so sad that we have come to this point in our sport. I don't thnk totally banning the use of meds will do the trick though. I have very bad knee problems that have turned into arthritus. There are days when I need a little something to get me going in the morning. The sad thing is that it has come to such a point where the answer to every problem is "O I have something that will fix that" they then go and mix some awful chemical cocktail an send the animal on it's way. It is just too bad that people are so driven by winning this or winning that. That they would ruin shuch wonderful animals in the process. Something needs to be done and done fast.

MBS
Sep. 4, 2000, 02:28 PM
Please post these replies on the Towerheads board under Holly Hayes' forum Controversal Topic.

C&C
Sep. 4, 2000, 03:33 PM
I'm not saying I'm for or against the use of drugs as I believe that is very dependent upon the situation, the horse, the drug used, the frequency with which its use, the amount, etc, etc, etc. I like to give my horse a gram or two of bute after a hard day, but I also don't show her into the ground so I'm not trying to hide weeks of point chasing, just making her more comforable after a long day. I know my back appreciates a couple of Motrin after a long horse show too! However, the use of Dex concerns me. I have recently heard of more and more use of Dex and even if you don't know it, it's definitely out there. Can someone tell me the real use of Dex for medical purposes and why the use (or is it just overuse) of it results in immune problems and coffin bone issues? Can dex be used occationally without issue? And please don't get me wrong, I'm not asking because I want to use it, but I'd like to know to make a better judgement as to whether others should or shouldn't.

MBS
Sep. 4, 2000, 04:24 PM
Azium/Dexamethasone is indicated for use as an anti-inflammatory. Often given in small animal medicine for cases of asthma, trauma, etc. It is usually used for Hives. But the reason most of the hunter people are using it I have been told is because it works so that the horse doesn't produce adrenaline . The are using it in much higher than recommended quantities.


[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 09-04-2000).]

threesixoxer
Sep. 4, 2000, 07:48 PM
I feel very lucky to know that i come from a barn where the only drugs that our horses get is so I can pull their manes! I come from a smaller A barn in Ontario, and honest to god, not one of our horses has ever shown on any drugs. I work really closely with the trainer, I'm a groom, braider, rider etc. It makes me really happy to know that my trainer has never succumbed to doing this to try and make our horses win.

creseida
Sep. 4, 2000, 08:09 PM
Generally, you can tell which horses are run into the ground and medicated to get them there, and which ones are ridden with the horse's well-being in mind. You can usually tell by how long they are a presence in the show ring.

It is really sad when horses are "retired" at 10 because they are used up. Even the really good ones. And in many cases, they needed "pharmaceutical help" to get them to age 10! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

Then there are horses who are competitive into their early twenties because their owners/trainers didn't have them relentlessly doing the 3' courses at age 3, and schooling them over jumps 6 days a week and showing every weekend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

These are the trainers who wait until their horses are physically mature enough to do the job. Who wait until age 3 or 4 before even breaking their horses, and not jumping until age 5 or 6. Once their horses understand the concept of jumping, schooling sessions over fences are limited to 1-2x per week.

Yes, these trainers "miss out" on two years of showing over fences at the front end, but their patience pays of as they gain 10 years of showing on the back end. To me the choice is a "no brainer", which makes me wonder about those who chose the other route.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 4, 2000, 08:37 PM
As I posted on another thread, the belief that Azium has a calmative (tranquilizing) affect is a PERCEPTION and is not a proven clinical effect AFAIK.

I believe that the perception is due to the suppressive action that long-term use of Azium has upon the hormone ACTH. ACTH is the hormone that regulates the activity of the adrenal glands. When a horse has elevated blood plasma levels of cortisol due to the long-term administration of corticosteroids. the pituitary gland decreases or ceases its production of ACTH. As a result, the adrenal glands decrease or no longer produce corticosteroids.

However, there should be no effect on the production of adrenaline. This is because adrenaline is produced by the adrenal medulla (the "interior" of the adrenal gland). OTOH, the corticosteroids are produced by the adrenal cortex (the "outside" of the adrenal gland). The adrenal medulla is essentially a part of the autonomic nervous system and, for reasons much too complex to go into here, is not under the "control" of the pituitary gland.

Side effects of long-term Azium use include depressed immune response, demineralization of the bone, suppression of the natural production of ACTH and laminitis, which is unique in hooved animals.

Even if the AHSA regulates the administration of Azium a determined person could increase serum cortisol levels through the administration of ACTH. As it is impossible to differentiate between natually occurring ACTH and that which is administered you would be unable to develop a test for this hormone. I believe that ACTH is used on show circuits that test for Azium.

IMO, the best thing we could do for our equine athletes is to educate the people who break the rules. Rather than fining a first time offender maybe the AHSA should implement a policy where the offender would have to attend a lecture on the interaction of different drugs with the equine's physiology.
I just wonder how many trainers and/or owners would risk the side effects of the administration of Azium when there is no evidence that they will receive any benefits from its administration.

Nina

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited 09-04-2000).]

mileroni
Sep. 4, 2000, 08:42 PM
Creseida-
I agree with you and somewhat off the subject. How about the trainers that do take their time, not use drugs and only do a limited amount of showing (like 6 shows, not all "A") to find out now certain states only want one year of pregreen with really no other divisions at three foot for the trainers to show in.

jumpsalot
Sep. 4, 2000, 09:07 PM
mileroni- I agree with you(THis is the person formerly known as cozmojumps)It is almost impossible to bring youngsters alongwith the limited showing I can do. I guess I am lucky that the horse complex is only 10 miles from the barn.Plus I can go to Triton for a show & be back home before dark- I can even take ponies there in the AM & take them home & get horses for the afternoon, since there is a schooling session during lunch break!

As far as the drug thing, MAny people have told me to find a cocktail for my horse- well guess what? 3 1/2 years of true grit, blood, sweat & tears & I now have a really nice horse, that I feel confident to put a new person on. I can represent my horse as he is. The only special thing they need to know, is that he has a REALLY low palate, so I show him in a KK. Oh yes, they might want to keep the dogs out of his stall! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Twister
Sep. 4, 2000, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mileroni:
Creseida-
I agree with you and somewhat off the subject. How about the trainers that do take their time, not use drugs and only do a limited amount of showing (like 6 shows, not all "A") to find out now certain states only want one year of pregreen with really no other divisions at three foot for the trainers to show in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it would encourage show managers to make sure there is an unrestricted 3 foot division on pro days.

On the drug issue, I think it almost needs to be an all or nothing situation. If any sort of drugging is to be allowed, it ought to be a regulated amount of, for example, ace. Simpler and safer than the questionable cocktails and kinder than LTD. Otherwise, it should be nothing at all. Of course, either rule would put a whole bunch of vets out of work.

farfel
Sep. 5, 2000, 01:24 AM
Does anyone know if the same kind of thing goes on in the dressage world?

I'm curious, because there was a dressage-related article in the COTH a while ago that mentioned a couple of dressage horses (or was it one horse on two occasions?) who foundered...and I thought that seemed kind of odd for relatively young horses in the care of a knowledgeable horseperson.

I'm not implying that drug abuse occurred in this particular case; it just made me wonder whether the Azium-related tragedies of the hunter world also occur in the dressage world.

3eme
Sep. 5, 2000, 03:38 AM
Maybe the AHSA needs to look at it's system of penalties for the use of equine drugs. Maybe $$$ fines are not enough. Here in France, like in the U.S., there is a l-o-n-g list of forbidden drugs. But here, if the horse tests positive for ANY of these, the horse is BANNED FROM SHOWING FOR FIVE YEARS! (and I think there's a fine, too).

Callie
Sep. 5, 2000, 08:53 AM
The drug problem is almost nonexistant in dressage as far as I know.

Canter
Sep. 5, 2000, 09:57 AM
Drugging our equines in order to keep them showing is a very sad state of affairs.
I can't tell you the number of top hunter/jumper barns that I've been at where it's never questioned. I am against the use of drugs unless prescribed to heal an injury and administed by a qualified vet. Way too many uneducated horsepeople run around training barns waving cortesone, steriods, anti-inflamatories and the like "prescribing" treatment. Got a hot horse? Just give 'em a couple of cc's to calm him down. Got a funky stifle? Give 'em injections. IMO it's up to the horses owners to be aware of what is going on and to put their horses before shows &ribbons.

Weatherford
Sep. 5, 2000, 11:05 AM
Just discovered:

Art. 409 of the AHSA Rules is identical to the FEI's no foreign substance rule.

HOWEVER - Every breed and discipline of the AHSA has the opportunity to choose to compete under this rule if it desires.

HMMMM food for thought!

Spunky
Sep. 5, 2000, 12:07 PM
Weatherford, your post gave me the chills.

In the sale barn where I am, a horse is what he is. No drugs, no witholding of water or grain, no lunging -- except maybe to get the bucks out of a young one before we climb on. Occasionally customers request that bloodwork be done as part of the vetcheck to verify that no drugs are present in the system. My trainer rarely even gives bute, because he likes to know when the horse STOPS feeling ouchy.

Our greenies are all older. The farm I ride at raises WB/TB crosses and they can get VERY LARGE, not to mention dumb and strong. Out of self-preservation, we break them usually at 3, then turn them out again for another year or so, then we breing them into the barn and do some refresher work until they are ready to go to kindergarten.

Watching other people's 2 or 3 year olds go around a 2'6" course at a local show sometimes makes me feel that we put ourselves at a competitive advantage. How many people want a six or seven year old greenie? So many want a four or five-year old who has been proven in the show ring. Hello????

But reading this thread it occurs to me that part of the reason some of the horses are so hyper is simply because they are so young? Even a 5-year old is still just a baby with a baby brain! And the WB/TB crosses raised at my barn frequently hit a growth spot at 6 or 7.


I'll get off my soapbox now!! Thanks, Weatherford, for starting the thread. It's pretty sick. But it's NOT everywhere!

Fence Hopper
Sep. 5, 2000, 12:59 PM
Over the past three years of competing at recognized Combined Training events and A rated horse shows ( 50+ competitions) I have only had my horses drug tested ONE time!! In a conversation with the organizers of some very large CT events they told me they had paid over $80,000 in fees to the AHSA for drug testing and had never had one horse tested at thier competitions!
As far as the A shows - the smallest show we went to was the one where the testers showed up.
I think that the abuse(and over use) of drugs would be greatly reduced if the trainers knew that all horses would be tested at some point during the competition, or at the least the winners!! I know that the racetrack is not squeaky clean - but we know that if we win a race our horse will be tested!

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 5, 2000, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Callie:
The drug problem is almost nonexistant in dressage as far as I know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that. I have heard of competitive dressage barns that do routine hock injections and use anabolic steroids to create that muscular "dressage horse" look. Granted these are allowed within the rules but just because it's allowed it doesn't mean there isn't potential for abuse. In fact, I am surprised at the rather cavalier attitude many horse people and vets have toward the use of prophylactic joint injections.

It isn't a stretch for me to believe that there are dressage barns that use dex to "take the spook" out of their horses. The use of Azium and ACTH is common on more circuits than just the hunter one.

Showpony
Sep. 5, 2000, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fence Hopper:

I think that the abuse(and over use) of drugs would be greatly reduced if the trainers knew that all horses would be tested at some point during the competition, or at the least the winners!! I know that the racetrack is not squeaky clean - but we know that if we win a race our horse will be tested![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!

That is what myself and DMK were discussing on another "drug" thread. It just seems to make so much sense!

( I added the bold type...)

[This message has been edited by showpony (edited 09-05-2000).]

Orange Horse
Sep. 5, 2000, 01:37 PM
Most of the dressage riders I know let the horses spook then complain that it must be the fault of the small child, dog, umbrella or whatever at the side of the ring! Speaking as a dressage rider, few of us would survive 5 minutes in a H/J warmup arena.

Black Market Radio
Sep. 5, 2000, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Just discovered:

Art. 409 of the AHSA Rules is identical to the FEI's no foreign substance rule.

HOWEVER - Every breed and discipline of the AHSA has the opportunity to choose to compete under this rule if it desires.

HMMMM food for thought!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so in a nutshell... "Here's the rule, but follow it only if you want to."

Wow, that is SCARY! And they wonder why we don't believe in them half the time! They don't even WANT to enforce their own rules! They are spineless and let the pros do whatever they want!

Unfortunantly yes, there is drug abuse in Dressage, however, I don't think it is quite as prevelant as in the hunter world. WHen compatition gets high, people get greedy and the ugly people cheat to win. That is what is so discouraging about the horse show world in every discipline.

I agree with the poster who raises wb/tb crosses, that yo should give the horse time to grow up rather than having them activly competing and 2'6 as babies! Let them grow up physically and mentally before asking them to be perfect (or 'making' them perfect)

ccoronios
Sep. 5, 2000, 02:29 PM
Many years ago, I was at a large, multi-breed show. TWH class -- and this was long before the keg-shod/lite-shod, etc. - they were all "big lick" horses back then -- and one was outstanding! No question who the winner was. Lined up, judge's card in - they call for the steward to check boots. This guy turned around, walked to the gate and left the ring.

That year, they started testing at the Celebration.

It doesn't take more than once or twice - even the holiest of the holy get the picture and get with it or get out. And those who can't stand the heat are no loss to the industry - no matter how many ribbons they've won.

ccoronios
Sep. 5, 2000, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Just discovered:
Art. 409 of the AHSA Rules is identical to the FEI's no foreign substance rule.
HOWEVER - Every breed and discipline of the AHSA has the opportunity to choose to compete under this rule if it desires.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, and some of them just bow out of AHSA completely..... check out Aps/QH (I think).. not sure of any others.....
If we were REALLY concerned about our horses and the future of the industry (whatever aspect of it we're in), we'd work together and have a NGB (that DOES stand for "National Governing Board" rather than "no good ...", doesn't it??) that all breeds and disciplines not only were REQUIRED to adhere to, but WANTED to adhere to, because of the clout it would provide in all areas.

DMK
Sep. 5, 2000, 03:00 PM
Before anyone thinks that the h/j disciplines are violating AHSA rules, I understad that the intent is that the "sub-disciplines" (for lack of a better term) can choose to adopt (or not adopt) this provision for their section of the rules. The arabian and CT divisions choose to do so, hunters choose not to. Both are acting within the rules.

I agree with showpony and fence hopper - at least some threat of guaranteed testing of winners would go a long way, I would think, especially now that the AHSA is using the ELISA test.

I was really disappointed when the rule prohibiting 2 NSAIDs was not passed, I didn't think that was one of the more noble moments in our sport. I also have to say that all the reports of how many sore horses show up in the jog is even less heartening... I mean these horses can still have that 2nd NSAID six hours before competition, right? I think it is pretty sad that a show horse can't be sound with a 6 hour old painkiller in his system.

That being said, I do support the limited use of NSAIDs 12 hours before showing. I think there is something to be said for the unfriendly conditions at many horse shows. My personal favorite was one where we were stabled on concrete and the schooling ring was almost as hard as concrete. Even sound horses are sore after a week of that...

Also (and this may be controversial), eliminating the use of all drugs might lead to some abuses with untestable substances. As I understand it, there is not a shortage of abuse in FEI sanctioned shows, there are just more creative masking substances used. At least there is a known safety level with the approved NSAIDS and robaxin. Perhaps a good first step would be to limit to only those drugs, and a D&M report required for all others, including dex...

Another idea could possibly be a series of articles on the detrimental side effects of certain drugs, such as dex, in the AHSA magazine, Show Horse.

Flash44
Sep. 5, 2000, 03:04 PM
I didn't do any AHSA rated shows this year and I did not miss it one bit.

The only reasonable way to enforce the drug and medication rule is to test the champion and reserve at every rated show.

And I kind of like the 5 year ban in France. We do too much wrist slapping here.

And without the meds, maybe our riders will get better since they will have to be able to deal with the less than perfectly mannered horse.

Snowbird
Sep. 5, 2000, 04:32 PM
Years ago I made a suggestion, that was of course when many many shows were required to have a veterinarian.

The idea was that the AHSA send a box of test tubes or whatever to the show veterinarian just as they send Comments sheets to the Steward. The veterinarian would then test all the blue ribbons and 2nd place winners at every show. Put the tubes back in the box and return to the AHSA with the corresponding entry numbers. The AHSA would still have the option to process whatever percentage of the tubes they budget for but, no one would ever know for sure. And, the AHSA would not know whose test it was until it showed up positive.

I can't speak for other show managers, but I would not object to paying the veterinarian if this was the reason they were there. I do object to paying them to sit around and do their office bookkeeping and maybe measure a couple of ponies or horses. The AHSA could also have a list of testers available that the show could employ for this job.

I do whole heartedly agree that we should not become more liberal but that there should be a zero tolerance for any process which alters the quality of a horse's performance. In hunters they are judged for "soundness and performance". This is obviously then something that should not be tampered with medically.

The only way that we can be heard is if there is a huge noise from the participants. Right now, all that the Drugs and Medications Committee hears from are those who do use medical short cuts.

I do agree that it is as silly to provide "cocktails" for the horses which are an attitude adjuster or to hide little defects such as being "a little" lame. What would the Olympics be if they permitted the same alterations for all the Olympic contestants?

But, even more important is the process of endangering the life and well being of our horses. A person can make a personal choice to take steroids to be bigger, faster or stronger, our horses are not making the choice.

Can you imagine how frightening it must for the poor horse who is coming down from the drugs during a rest period? Can you imagine how terrifying it must be for them to suffer the pains of "witdrawal"?

I cannot comprehend how anyone can justify the damages to the horses that they cause just to win at a horse show.

We ran an interesting experiment a few years ago. We spread the rumor that the drug testers were coming to a show in the morning. It was a most interesting day. The pleasure horse put the owner in the hospital, the state champion junior hunter scratched, and the leading junior jumper was awful. It was remarkable how they all improved in the afternoon when they found out that it was just a rumor.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-05-2000).]

Jair
Sep. 5, 2000, 04:44 PM
This is interesting that this topic came up today after I read something in PH that caught my eye. PH's last issue listed all the short listed riders for the US olympics disciplines, with a little blurb from each rider about how they felt etc. I was horrifed that the only comment Francie Steinwidell Carivn had was along the lines that she had found showing in Europe a good prep because she had to deal with the NO DRUG rules of the FEI (she made it sound like it was an annoyance to have to show without medication) and that she had suddenly learned that taking your horse for a walk or riding it in the morning before a class was a good thing to keep its circulation up!

My god! What the h!@!#l was she doing with her horse before?!?!? I can't believe that someone at that level didn't know how to maintain her grand prix horse while at a show!

Anyone else horrified at how she sounded? Or was I just touchy when I read that?

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 09-05-2000).]

Richard! :D
Sep. 5, 2000, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
I haven't heard of people giving Azium up here...most drugs are banned by the CEF (I think).

The alternative? Let's lunge and/or ride our horses for 6 or 7 hours before their class at the Royal, not give them any feed or water the night before, and then they can perform great "naturally"! There has been at least one horse up here who colicked before their class at the Royal (he showed anyway, 3 hours after it happened) and I'm willing to bet it was because he wasn't watered the night before. What happened to training riders and horses to compete their best?!? Oh, I forgot...people with too much money, not enough knowledge, and no way of handling the expensive hunter they have bought. (Sorry, I know this is off the topic of drugs, but the problem has the same reasoning behind it as the drug issue...anything to win).

I am not saying that everyone on "A" circuit is rich, or can't ride, or that everyone with money treats their horses like this, but the number of those who do is horrifying! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We give azium once a week at shows. 10cc 36 hours prior to when you show. Its a great steroidal anti inflamitory. I really dont think it doest much by way of tranquilizing the horse. I guess if people are giving their horses 2cc every day of a 5 week long show or whatever thats bad. Its not tracible so thats why there are no rules on it as of yet.

pwynnnorman
Sep. 5, 2000, 08:34 PM
Unbelievable, Jair. I read it that way, too. And sadly, I find, DarkHorse, that your comment about routinely giving azium instead of MANAGING your horses different so they don't need anti-inflamatories to be right up the same alley as FSC's eye-opener in Europe.

But it will NEVER end. It's just human nature to be greedy and always take the easier way out. The simple solution is to show less often and do non-jumping homework more often.

Those who are so upset about this situation need to stop complaining and do something about it. There's no way in Cain that under the current system ANY real restrictions will be placed on the use of drugs. Every apparent step forward results in two steps back. Why? Because, as Snowbird stated, THE USERS RUN THE SYSTEM.

The show managers don't care about the overuse of drugs. They only want more entries.

The trainers WANT the leeway to drug instead of train and manage.

The wealthier owners WANT the drugs to win without working for it (and I say "wealthier" on purpose: the stuff is EXPENSIVE after all. The average trainer doing the middle rank stuff doesn't have many owners who can afford to be billed show after show, week after week for that stuff).

So unless we get more of the 98% on the committees and more of the incestuously powerful 2% off of the committees, plus the right for all members to vote on significant referenda, NOTHING WILL CHANGE, except maybe to get worse.

And get real when it comes to "publishing articles" to "educate." What a bunch of bunk. Doesn't anyone remember how "they" got the $10K a few years ago, supposedly to "study and educate"? Does anyone remember who the names were on that full-page COTH ad? They were the biggest names in the industry, that's who.

Look, folks, many of the big time trainers who abuse the drugs make a comfortable livelihood for themselves off of being able to show, show, show. That's the bottom line: that's what the drugs enable: show, show, show. Those trainers (and the show managers who need them) are going to fight tooth and nail to protect their livelihood. They will ALWAYS find a reason to ignore what the rest of the world and what other sports do.

So it IS simple: take the decisionmaking power in the industry OUT OF THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO PROFIT SIGNIFICANTLY FROM THE DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE!!!!! Return the power to those who love the horse and the sport FIRST and thus are willing to recognize, accept and lead everyone else in making sacrifices on behalf of the horse and the sport. Those are the people who are best able to make healthy, objective decisions.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 5, 2000, 08:46 PM
I'm baaaaccckkk! Heh, heh, heh, can you tell this pushed my button!

First of all, Snowbird, what a great idea! Too bad it didn't pass. The only change I would make was to have a tech and some stalls available to collect urine samples. You can usually get more metabolites in the urine than in the blood so that's where you find the stuff that was administered earlier but is still banned.

If you really want to have fun just have someone walk around the showgrounds and announce that the testers have arrived. Wait until you see how fast those ramps go up and the trailers leave. Then again, that can be a little tough on the show's bottom line /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

My horse was tested at Devon this year after I won the amateur handler class. I'm such a naive dope that I didn't even realize that the nice lady talking to me was a drug tester. Then she told me that I had won a drug test. She was shocked when I laughed and said, "Wow, nice to see my testing dollars at work" and then cooperated fully. She told me she wasn't used to such treatment which is a sad indictment of my fellow exhibitors.

I'm with DMK on the zero tolerance. Even though it looks like a good way to go the FEI rules have spawned some of the more creative practices. These things have a way of filtering over here as trainers make another desperate attempt to get ahead of the drug testers.

Jair, I wasn't particularly surprised by that article. It is an adjustment for people that are used to giving a gram of bute to help with minor aches and pains. I had a vet that helped keep a marginally sound Olympic level showjumper sound for FEI competition. It takes a lot of joint injections, neutriceuticals and other hocus pocus to keep a marginally sound horse sound enough for the jog. That's another reason that FOR THE MOST PART I prefer the AHSA's medication rules to the FEI rules. I'd rather flip the horse a gram of Bute after a particularly taxing show than repeatedly invade the joint capsule with corticosteroids, Hyaluronic Acid, etc. The AHSA drug rule was developed with the idea that the permitted dose would be therapeutic not analgesic.

DarkerHorse, Azium (dexamethasone) can be detected in the horse's urine. The AHSA hasn't developed permissable levels for it yet so that's why they don't test for it.

As I said before I'm for education. You have to realize that some of these cocktails and practices are obtained word of mouth from other trainers. They're not malicious or abusive just ignorant about physiology. There's no shame in that. I finished four years of pre-vet and worked at a vet hospital for 10 years and I have consulted my books before I posted anything on any of these drug threads.

Then again, ignorance can breed the worst abuses.

Nina (stepping off her favorite soapbox)

Weatherford
Sep. 5, 2000, 09:36 PM
ACtually, the D&M Committee submitted a rule change last year to require a Vet's certificate before using Azium (Dex), and that was shot down by the powers-that-be.

I agree with you, Pwynn, we must change those powers.

Snowbird
Sep. 5, 2000, 10:26 PM
Well for many years Snowbird was the favorite ssite for drug testers. I don't think they missed being here at least twice a year and sometimes more. I finally asked the testers Why? Did they think all the drugged horses were at my shows? She said no, they don't get paid mileage and I was the closest to home base at New Bolton.

They also loved to test my poor old school horses. We'd have a division with my students riding my horses something like "Suitable Hunter", unrecognized and unrated. Fortunately, I don't believe in drugging my horses so I never had to have a trauma of fear. We don't use anything that needs a steady diet of even bute. I figure I don't function as well on aspirin, and I do straight so even if I believed that bute is no more than aspirin, I wouldn't ask anyone to ride anything I wouldn't put one of my kids on.

They tested horses that weren't entered and horses in the unrated divisions. Being me I said look why don't you test #xxx in the Pony Division I know it's drugged, or at least the rated divisions. No luck, they didn't care. and they haven't been back since.

Small Change
Sep. 5, 2000, 11:08 PM
Drug testing is a rather bigger mess than we often realize. To test for all possible drugs and metabolites is impossible. So the labs are stuck with checking for the most common and from the rumour mill the fashionable.
Dex is tested for in Canada and if the level is any where close to the therapeutic level you are in trouble. The drug testing lab for Canada Food & Inspection agency has a book of medications and with drawal times for racetracks and horseshows.
In Europe the no medication rule is as often broken as NA drug rules. There is more use of designer or obscure drugs. A show jumper was +ve for Imitrex a migraine treatment!
A fundemental change in philosophy is really needed. How that could be done I don't know

Canter
Sep. 6, 2000, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:
We give azium once a week at shows. 10cc 36 hours prior to when you show. Its a great steroidal anti inflamitory. I really dont think it doest much by way of tranquilizing the horse. I guess if people are giving their horses 2cc every day of a 5 week long show or whatever thats bad. Its not tracible so thats why there are no rules on it as of yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DarkerHorse go back and read the first posting. Look at the possible side effects from Azium useage. Are you doing yearly tests to make sure that your horse isn't suffering from overmedication if you're showing frequently? 10cc given once a week (if you show frequently is overmedication)

Spunky
Sep. 6, 2000, 10:55 AM
Canter, DarkerHorse is a Troll!! Ignore him, he's just yapping & trying to get everyone all excited. (And he's not even a FRIENDLY troll! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 6, 2000, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
ACtually, the D&M Committee submitted a rule change last year to require a Vet's certificate before using Azium (Dex), and that was shot down by the powers-that-be.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops, that's what I get for posting late at night. Well, for me it's late at night /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I just assumed that permissable levels would be the only reason to not test for the drug. However, we all know what assuming makes us /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Actually, Weatherford's (correct) scenario is a lot scarier than my assumption that they haven't developed permissable levels. Why do TPTB think that it's okay to be messing with their horse's endocrinology?

The mind boggles.

Nina

Zaboobafoo
Sep. 6, 2000, 11:05 AM
Heres an example of why its hard to be drug-free....

I have most of the control in my horse's training, feeding, and all ther aspects, even tho my friend is now the primary show rider. A while back he got a quarter crack and it is still growing out. This weekend he showed...

The first day he went beautifully, doing two low jumper classes. The second day he came out a bit sore...I thought it was his foot, the rider though he was stiff. He appeared to get better so we did one low class then took him back, soaked his foot and wrapped it, and called it a day.

The next morning I jog him before we tack up...he looks great! My friend gets on and hacks him...he is definitely fine today. She shows very well and we are talking about doing a higher class...when my trainer tells me that she took it upon herself to give him two tabs of bute the night before.

How can you stop trainers from doing things of this sort? I was so mad I could have walked out....

cranston
Sep. 6, 2000, 11:15 AM
Wow, am I naive about this stuff. I have been showing all of my life - did the whole junior thing, etc. Now I keep my horse at home, show in the A/A (or Low Amateur, depending on how the ol'eye is working that week!) jumpers, and meet my trainers at the shows. Several weeks ago, I was having dinner at a show with some of the people from the barn. They started talking about the medications fees that were on their bills from the trainers, and all the different meds their horses were on, etc. I was floored - I had never heard of half of this stuff, and their bills were almost as much as my OTTB cost!!! I'm sure this didn't go on when I was a junior, or my parents would have had a cow. I think I'll just stick to the jumper ring if this is what it takes to be competitive in the hunters.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 6, 2000, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:
We give azium once a week at shows. 10cc 36 hours prior to when you show. Its a great steroidal anti inflamitory. I really dont think it doest much by way of tranquilizing the horse. I guess if people are giving their horses 2cc every day of a 5 week long show or whatever thats bad. Its not tracible so thats why there are no rules on it as of yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went to the Schering-Plough website (http://www.sp-animalhealth.com/products/equintoc.htm). The recommended dose for equines when administered IV or IM is 2.5mg to 5mg. Azium solution contains 2mg/ml so 10cc of Azium equals 20mg administered which is 4 times the highest recommended dose.

The recommended dose for oral Azium powder is 5 to 10mg for the first day then 5mg for each day thereafter. Azium is supplied in 10mg packets so if you give one pack per day you are exceeding the recommended dose after the first day.

Although other literature I have states that the sedative effect of Azium solution is a perception the S-P website does mention that doses greater than the recommended amount may produce transient lethargy or drowsiness in horses which abates after 24 hours. It does not mention this effect in conjunction with administration of the powder. Weatherford, maybe you're on to something with the drug cocktail and all the injuries.

There is an extensive list of contraindications, precautions, warnings and side effects.

DarkerHorse, Azium is not a "great anti-inflammatory" it is a potent anti-inflammatory with as much power to harm as it does to help. 10cc 36 hours before a show is no better than administering 2cc every day for weeks on end. That's like having to choose between being hit with a hammer versus stabbed with a knife.

If your trainer is really administering 10cc of Azium to your horse prior to a horse show you need to talk to your veterinarian.

I'm starting to wonder about a friend's horse that was put down at New Bolton after being diagnosed with liver failure (a problem that I don't usually associate with equines). I know that the stable in question uses 5cc of Azium as part of their "show prep".

Nina (still boggling)

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited 09-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited 09-06-2000).]

Portia
Sep. 6, 2000, 12:20 PM
Nina, thank's for all the good information. Thank God the only time any of my horses have had Dex is when Lucien broke out in horrible hives from an allergic reaction. He got two shots from the vet over the course of several weeks while we tried to identify the allergen. We finally fixed it as the Coastal hay from the new supplier, and switched him to alfalfa rather than both Coastal and alfalfa. No more hives, and very definately no more dex.

I'm not putting Americans down, but I think I'm glad that I'm at a barn run by Europeans (German owner/trainer, English trainer). They did not grow up with the "equine drug culture" and are not inclined to embrace it. Thank Goodness.

DMK
Sep. 6, 2000, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chrissy:
I went to the Schering-Plough website (http://www.sp-animalhealth.com/products/equintoc.htm). The recommended dose for equines when administered IV or IM is 2.5mg to 5mg. Azium solution contains 2mg/ml so 10cc of Azium equals 20mg administered which is 4 times the highest recommended dose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, generic dex also comes in 4 mg concentrations, which would of course, double the 4x dose you referenced.

tle
Sep. 6, 2000, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaboobafoo:
How can you stop trainers from doing things of this sort? I was so mad I could have walked out....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said it... walk out. As a rider, owner, AND THE ONE PAYING THE BILLS!... it is YOUR horse, YOUR decision, and you're paying your trainer to do what YOU want! Egads! This is awful. You need to make it perfectly clear to that trainer that YOU will decide when, if, and what kind of meds that horse will have... PERIOD!

Just an eventers .02 worth... depending on the event, you can have some meds. Someone mentioned early on about how they never got tested at CTs. True. It's a big heartburn with all the organizers (paying for a test fee and no one getting tested)... at least under AHSA rules. Most of hte testing that does happen at events, happens at the big 3-days...not the horse trials.

I know many of the upper level eventers are actually trying to get the ruling changed to allow SOME meds because eventing is tough and horses (and rider) do get sore (lord knows i was this weekend after riding in a Training level 3-day!). But so far that hasn't happened. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Yes, I can understand the desire to offer SOME pain relief after cross country day... but many people may have a hard time determining "some" from "too much". At the lower levels, I have no problem with the current ruling... and IME I haven't come across many eventers who break that rule.

Richard! :D
Sep. 6, 2000, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:
DarkerHorse go back and read the first posting. Look at the possible side effects from Azium useage. Are you doing yearly tests to make sure that your horse isn't suffering from overmedication if you're showing frequently? 10cc given once a week (if you show frequently is overmedication) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


We show about 2 times a month so they dont get it that much, and we only give it when the show all week long. Like we dont give it at 2 day local shows unless the horse really needs it. I am not a troll, i resent that. I only stated facts..... We dont give azuim to my horse, it makes him swap off his leads. The vets say thats impossible, but whenever we gave azium it made him to that. Maybe its a mental thing with me, but hey whatever works.

Richard! :D
Sep. 6, 2000, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chrissy:
I went to the Schering-Plough website (http://www.sp-animalhealth.com/products/equintoc.htm). The recommended dose for equines when administered IV or IM is 2.5mg to 5mg. Azium solution contains 2mg/ml so 10cc of Azium equals 20mg administered which is 4 times the highest recommended dose.

The recommended dose for oral Azium powder is 5 to 10mg for the first day then 5mg for each day thereafter. Azium is supplied in 10mg packets so if you give one pack per day you are exceeding the recommended dose after the first day.

Although other literature I have states that the sedative effect of Azium solution is a perception the S-P website does mention that doses greater than the recommended amount may produce transient lethargy or drowsiness in horses which abates after 24 hours. It does not mention this effect in conjunction with administration of the powder. Weatherford, maybe you're on to something with the drug cocktail and all the injuries.

There is an extensive list of contraindications, precautions, warnings and side effects.

DarkerHorse, Azium is not a "great anti-inflammatory" it is a potent anti-inflammatory with as much power to harm as it does to help. 10cc 36 hours before a show is no better than administering 2cc every day for weeks on end. That's like having to choose between being hit with a hammer versus stabbed with a knife.

If your trainer is really administering 10cc of Azium to your horse prior to a horse show you need to talk to your veterinarian.

I'm starting to wonder about a friend's horse that was put down at New Bolton after being diagnosed with liver failure (a problem that I don't usually associate with equines). I know that the stable in question uses 5cc of Azium as part of their "show prep".

Nina (still boggling)

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited 09-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited 09-06-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<<<
If your trainer is really administering 10cc of Azium to your horse prior to a horse show you need to talk to your veterinarian.>>>

Thats the dosage my vet said to give... out of the 75 horses or so that my trainer has taken to shows during the span that ive been riding with her none have ever foundered at shows. Only 3 horses in the whole barn have foundered that i remember... 1 was a school horse, 1 was a small pony that got to much food, and 1 was a dressage horse that my trainer didnt have anything to do with....

Richard! :D
Sep. 6, 2000, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Actually, generic dex also comes in 4 mg concentrations, which would of course, double the 4x dose you referenced. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think we use generic. it doesnt say azuim on the package, just dexamethosone

Ghazzu
Sep. 6, 2000, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
The arabian and CT divisions choose to do so, hunters choose not to. Both are acting within the rules.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the Arabian division is, like the hunter division , operating under the permitted subsances rule.

And for the previous poster who mentioned AQHA, while they do not come under the AHSA umbrella in general, for years they had a "no drug" rule, which was changed recently to allow for some medications, and I believe they are working with AHSA on testing and enforcement matters.

Ghazzu
Sep. 6, 2000, 04:07 PM
Another common undesirable side effect of corticosteroid administration is gastrointestinal ulceration.

Colin
Sep. 6, 2000, 04:08 PM
Darker Horse, you are fighting a losing battle with this one! LOL! I attempted to "fight" the drug thing a few months ago. All it did was give me a headache!

Many of the show horses I know get dex the night before and the morning of the show. 5-10cc each time, depending on the horse. Yes, you have to be careful not to give too much or too often - can make them founder - especially in humid weather, but for the most part, if you're safe and smart about it, no problem, and yes, it works great! I used it all the time when showing.

However....most of the people on this BB don't show and don't "understand" what is common practice at the shows....so, in that case, you are fighting a losing battle.

Not that one opinion is right and other is wrong, of course (I have to be careful here, Darker horse -- Erin has a watchful eye on me lately!)....

Spunky
Sep. 6, 2000, 05:07 PM
DarkerHorse, I apologize for the troll accusation. It's clear from your subsequent posts that you have valid information to contribute and I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Colin, you're probably right in that many of us posting don't show regularly on the "A" circuit -- including me /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ! But many people do, or have, and I think that they do understand the common practices. What isn't clear is if the people who are making these things a common practice truly understand all the implications. That appears to be the crux of the discussion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No one's made personal attacks -- everyone's attacking the issue -- and you're right, it is an individual decision. You seem to be knowledgable & accomplished, so I'm curious as to what you used it for, i.e., what exactly did it work great for?? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif

Nina/Chrissy, It didn't state on the SP website what kind of dosage/usage could cause founder, they just kindof admitted that it was possible; has this been measured?

Colin
Sep. 6, 2000, 05:12 PM
I used it because my precious colin would get hives before showing..... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

A "fortunate" side effect of the drug, for me, was that yes, it does make them quieter!

Spunky
Sep. 6, 2000, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
I used it because my precious colin would get hives before showing..... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

A "fortunate" side effect of the drug, for me, was that yes, it does make them quieter!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are just too hilarious!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bopper
Sep. 6, 2000, 05:38 PM
When given a choice between "understanding" what is common practice i.e. overdosing your horse and not drugging therefore not being in touch with the "show crowd" I much prefer to put my horse's health first. I completely "understand" what is common practice and have seen the bad results. Just because you have been lucky enough not to have experienced the down side don't think it is not out there.

By the way just because it is common practice does not mean it is the best thing for the horses or the industry.

Canter
Sep. 6, 2000, 06:02 PM
Colin, don't ever change...you are a scoundrel! (doesn't THAT make me sound a hundred years old)

Some of us do show A you know...but don't necessarily agree with the drug point of view.

That being said, I agree that this debate does give one a headache. I'm off to take a hearty dose of Naproxin.

relocatedTXjumpr
Sep. 6, 2000, 06:23 PM
ok,just wanted to ass a little story to this. when i was 13 i think, i got my first horse, a TB, my trainer gave hin , DEX at every show, he was young and one of those guys that was like "okay, im happy and want to play in the corners", well, if he did that then we wouldnt win, so, she gave him the drug to calm him down. i was 13, both myself and my parents trusted what our trainer was doing, i mean she wouldnt do it if he didnt need it right? then when his back started hurting him, she would give him other drugs, i cant think of the name of it, a muscle relaxer i think, and this horse lived off of bute. i mean, he was like a little druggie, you could almost see him say, "ya, stick me!" never did i or my parents once question what the trainer was doing, then all the controversy came up about bute, thats when we started to get a clue. she, and the other trainers, were using the drugs as a sort of quick fix, instead of having me come out early before a show and lunge, she would just drug him and throw us in a low class first, i mean, i remember him being so "loopy" he couldnt even get up enough momentum to do his lead changes, then i guess it would wear off alittle and he would be like a perfect little angel.
i think the point im trying to make is that most of us want to trust what our trainers are doing for us and our horses, but youhave to do your homework too, there are trainers out there who are only in it to win and will tell you anything to think they are doing the best for your horse. the regular vet in our barn had even been paid off to pass horses vet checks when people wanted to buy them, my friend had bought a horse who passed her vet check with flying colors, and then when we switched barns, found out she had bad feet problems and the trainer had been giving her bute to numb the pain. i just think its crazy.
im not saying all drugs are bad, but i am saying that if you have to drug your horse at every show, or after every show he lives off of pain killers for weeks, then theres something wrong.

Richard! :D
Sep. 6, 2000, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beccam86:
i remember him being so "loopy" he couldnt even get up enough momentum to do his lead changes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Momentum has nothing to do with leadchanges. Maybe he was so drugged up his head was low and he was just clobbering around so he coudnt jump up and switch his lead like they should.

Portia
Sep. 6, 2000, 08:54 PM
Colin, you're right that you probably won't get those of us who feel that routine use of such drugs for purposes other than their medically indicated purposes is wrong, both for the horse and for the sport. However, don't assume that all those who feel that way don't show on the A circuit. I do, and so do many others -- though no, I don't do the every week, point chasing, go to Florida A circuit, and I do the jumpers, not the hunters.

I don't mean to be harsh and this is not directed at you personally, Colin or Darkerhorse, but just because something is done "routinely" or "because that's what it takes to win" does not make it correct or even acceptable. Let's not forget that at the highest levels of the Walking Horse and saddlehorse worlds, soreing horses used to be done "routinely" because that was "what it took to win."

If it really takes drugs and/or lunging horses into the ground, withholding water, etc. to win -- then something seriously needs to change. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

As for whether such drugs are widely used in the dressage world, not that I've ever heard of. One reason is because dressage not only requires obediance, but also requires energy and a certain brilliance of movement and attitude. You can still win in a dressage test even if your horse does show an independent spirit.

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 09-06-2000).]

relocatedTXjumpr
Sep. 6, 2000, 09:02 PM
i do believe that is what i meant

Flash44
Sep. 6, 2000, 09:08 PM
I have an ex racer who fractured a pastern 8 years ago and needed 3 screws inserted. He still has one in there. He had chronic shins and a bowed tendon while on the track, plus was sore in his back and hind end. Plus he tneds to have thin shelly hoof walls and his feet bruise easily. He is 10 years old.

I am in my 3rd year of showing this horse, and have done a lot of rated shows, and have never once felt the need to give him any drug to "help him out" or "prevent swelling" before a show. If he has a hard show or not so great footing, he may get a bute after the show. He gets nothing in between shows or before a show. He is well fed and I work on his feet, using turpentine and packing them with mud. I keep the filling out of his legs and the stiffness out of his joints by carefully planning the intensity and duration of my rides, plus I do a long slow warm up and cool down.

Proper horse maintenance and injury prevention is not attained through drugs. Giving a horse corticosteriods, anti inflammatories or anything else before a show is a short cut and jeapordizes your horse's health in the long run. You must learn to feed, condition and care for your horse right. A joint is only as strong as the muscles supporting it. If your horse is not strong and supple, his joints will absorb more stress and he will develop problems. I know fat horses look good, but each extra pound of weight your horse carries puts more stress on his legs, joints, back and heart. Just like your doctor tells you about yourself.

Quit playing chemist and try to be a horseman.

pwynnnorman
Sep. 6, 2000, 09:34 PM
I fell like I just have to talk about my stallion Teddy in light of this drugs and meds discussion.

Teddy fractured his foreleg on the track, was laid up, sent back and then broke it again. We purchased him during his second layup (and he might have been sent back if we hadn't) at age 7, big, beautiful, incredibly sweet and generous...and also dead lame and riddled with ulcers (so we couldn't give him bute unless he was really, really suffering). I tried to ride him, but there was just no way to kindly manage his aches and pains and work him, too.

Today, 13 years later, he is sound as a dollar, although comes out a touch stiff, as a 20 year old horse might be expected to. And guess what? He's NEVER been on bute, had injections or even been on the shark cartilage joint stuff. And if you manage his mind so that he's a happy camper, he tends toward the positively "pudgy" when it comes to his weight, so his ulcers and aches are almost certainly well under control.

And if I didn't have so many to ride already, I probably WOULD take to riding him.

The point I'm trying to make is that there IS another way. Lay up that sore show horse, please! Tell your trainer to let it REST. That's the best, long-term, HUMANE way to deal with even those aches and pains easily softened up by bute. Address the problem, don't just cover up the symptoms, PLEASE! I've admitted this to people often when Teddy stood commercially: he's my "ego horse." In much the same way those ribbons and wins fulfill whatever frequent exhibitors' need for self-actualization, Teddy does that for me.

But I feel much, much better for having allowed him to work through his aches and pains and come out the other side as a sound, healthy, happy old horse. Can you who can't take the time to rest instead of drug...as in, maybe LEASE another horse until yours is rested? The cost might not even be as much as all those expensive drugs--or even supplements, IMO--...can you be SURE that YOUR horses will be as happy as my Ted when they are his age and beyond? Can you REALLY be sure? How do you feel about that? About how you MAY end up "repaying" your mount for his years of service?

[This message has been edited by pwynnnorman (edited 09-06-2000).]

creseida
Sep. 6, 2000, 09:45 PM
I am very proud to say that in the 10+ years I have owned Cressy, to include lots of jumping cross country , show jumping and dressage, I have given her bute no more than 10 times. She received it for 7 days when we (the vet and I) were figuring out why she was suddenly very lame (waiting for blood test results), and there were 3 possibilities; 1) she pulled a muscle in her lumbar spinal area (she sank about 6" under light to moderate pressure)2) she had a kidney infection (again a possibility due to
the pain in the lumbar region), or 3) she had EPM, in which case the bute would help reduce the inflammation from the EPM.

I gave her bute for two days after she had a severe shot reaction and severe muscle spasms this spring, and I gave her bute once several years ago as a precaution when she slipped in the mud and did the splits with her back legs (she never did come up sore from that!)

She is now over 20, still jumps at least twice per week, acts like a 4 year old, is never stiff or sore and receives NO pain medication whatsoever.

Why? Because I never jump the snot out of her when I ride or show her, she is turned out 24/7, and if on some rare occasion she isn't right, I STOP RIDING HER UNTIL SHE IS RIGHT. I don't give her a drug cocktail to keep her going. I cool her out properly when I do ride, and give her a liniment rub down after hard rides. I never have problems with stocking up, stiffness, soreness, or whatever. But if I did, I certainly would not show the horse until he was right ON HIS OWN, WITHOUT DRUGS.

For all of those of you who believe in giving steroids to your horses routinely, you are not doing your horses any favour. Just because so-and-so does it, does that make it right???

MBS
Sep. 6, 2000, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
However....most of the people on this BB don't show and don't "understand" what is common practice at the shows....so, in that case, you are fighting a losing battle.
....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok Colin We all know you are showing on that Big Utah A circuit and we wouldn't understand what is common practice at such Big shows as Hits Tahoe that didn't even get enough entries to compete in the East/West Hunter Classic. But some of us do show and Work with Some Pretty well known Trainers and we still don't agree with adminstering drugs that have potentially harmful long term effects.


[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 09-06-2000).]

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 6, 2000, 10:50 PM
Colin, DH, etc. I posted the information about Azium because I do show (well, not lately) and I have a friend who is a big name in the A/O hunters (you would know the name and the horse). Around two years ago he told me what the drug cocktail du jour was (Azium) and asked me if it would harm his horse. I used to work for a vet so he liked to get my opinion on things.

After I put my jaw back in place I told him it was not a particularly benign item to give to his horse and told him why. He wanted to put an end to this but was assured that the dose was safe ("We buy it from a vet") so the show prep continued.

He missed indoors last year when the horse had colic surgery.

I didn't contribute to this thread to make value judgements per se. I was more interested in getting the facts out there. That's what they are - facts. The fact is that Dex messes with your horse's endocrine system.

But you know what? It's your right (I'm not singling anyone out here) to do as you please with your property until the AHSA gets off its collective duff and does something about it.

Please don't turn this into a "we show" versus "they don't show" thread. I suspect that (actually, I know - I have sources) for the most part the recommendation to administer Dex as show prep has been passed from trainer to trainer. And, for the most part, the last person I would go to for medical or pharmaceutical advice would be any sort of equine trainer. OTOH, I used to go to my vet for medical advice. I didn't go to a doctor for 10 years /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BTW, the S-P website listed laminitis as a side effect of Azium liquid (injectable). Kind of makes sense because injectables are absorbed much more quickly than oral substances so the effect on the body's chemistry is much more dramatic.

Also, while I was working at the vet hospital the reverse was true regarding concentration. Generic dex was 2mg/ml and Azium was 4 mg/ml. I don't know when it changed but apparently it did.

Nina

Justbay
Sep. 6, 2000, 11:46 PM
All I know is the therapuetic dose of Dex for a horse with hives is about 2 mg injected. A bad case of hives does not respond very well to the powder- 2 mg injectable is a starting point. I do not know if it makes the horse more quiet w/2 mg
w/ hives. I DO KNOW that this dosage can relieve a horse from actual hives.

If the horse DOES NOT have hives and is administed 5-10 mg prior to show, I would suppose then it would have an effect like taking Benadryl to go to sleep- thus creating a quieting effect, NOT necessarily "perceived". I do not think there is clinical research on this- but I may be wrong. If the drug itself IS NOT working on the allergy (b/c there isn't one)Then it must create an effect, right???? I
do not know...if horses could talk.

I know an equine allergist and have spoken to him on this b/c I have a young horse going through some hives and do not want to cause any long term problems...

Weatherford
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:25 AM
Colin, if your horse gets hives, are you working on the why rather the just medicating? Are you there when the horse gets hives, or is it just the trainer talking?

And why, if the horse has hives, are you still showing? When my horse(s) gets them, I cringe at the thought of even placing a saddle on his (their) back(s)!

I do NOT mean this as an attack, just questions and food for thought.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting and thoughtful discussion. Unfortunately, I think the drugs issue does get cloudy when there are two different kinds of drugging going on - even when this is sometimes simultaneous!

1) Aches & pains drugging.

2) Calming drugging. (As in the use/overuse of Dex.)

One of my serious concerns is that the use of both at once hides one problem or another - ie the use of the pain killers/anti-inflammatories hide the changes in the coffin bone, and the use of something with a "calming effect" hides behavioural problems that may be tied to unsoundnesses.

Again, food for thought.

Zaboobafoo
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:43 AM
While I myself do not show the top shows anymore, the horse and rider I mentioned earlier are planning to show at WPB this winter and try to gain points toward the M&S and NAL finals. And in my day(don't I sound old and mature! HA!) I chased points and went to Indors, Devon, Medal Finals, won year-end awards, and yes, saw some horses break.

I think the thing with meds is that their is a time and place for it, but people depends on it too much. And besides, if you have a big show, wouldn't you rather the drug have its full and complete affect rather then what small effect is left after your horse has gained tolerance for it?

I had one pony, who was the soundest thing I've probably ever had, never limped a step, going on robaxin and banamine at EVERY show. Finally I gt fed up and took him off the banamine accept for major shows(WPB, Tampa, Pony Finals), but my trainer insisted on the the robaxin..

Its definitely one thing to give a horse a little meds at Devon or Indoors, when this is what you've worked for all year and one bad step can mean the end of a dream. Or toward the end of WPB when your horse has shown 8 out of the last 10 weekend. But when your working to qualifiy and going around hitting shows, don't you want to know if it hurts? Sure, they say the drugs don't mask much...but I have chronic neck problems and advil takes care of it for me...wouldn't it be the same? Drugs should be the expection, not the rule...

which, in my mind, brings us back to the #1 problem in the hunter/jumper world today...overshowing.

Colin
Sep. 7, 2000, 11:09 AM
Geez, MB...a bit defensive, aren't we???

I KNEW I SHOULDN'T have even "gone there" with this one! So no more comments from me on the drug issue.

You're right, MB....Tahoe was a "dead show" by week 4. However, weeks 1-3 were pretty strong. You are right, the "big Utah circuit" is quite lame....however....having said that...past experiences found me at an A rated show every weekend for 10 years in Virginia. Not claiming to be a gucci rider/show person here, just saying that medicating horses is common practice on the circuit. At least from what I have seen from riding with several big trainers on both the east and west coasts. That's all I'm saying....ok????

xoxoxo!!!

pwynnnorman
Sep. 7, 2000, 12:33 PM
Keep on posting, Colin! I think it is helpful and stimulating when someone doesn't beat around the bush, even if I disagree or am saddened by what is there.

Jair
Sep. 7, 2000, 12:51 PM
This is an interesting, if slighly horrifying, discussion. I know nothing about the kinds of "drug cocktails" that some of you have mentioned people routinely give horses to supposedely "help" them. I have never even heard of that "Dex/Azium" stuff. But I am curious about the use of Robaxin - I have heard that mentioned before, and am wondering if it does have the same effect on a horse that it does on people - ie. relax back muscles. I could see it being helpful in certain circumstances.

Also - the use of cocaine in horses has cropped up several times in the news in the past year or so, and was wondering if anyone knew what the people administering it were hoping to achieve? For those vets/knowledgeable pharamceuetical type out there - would it create a "high" for the horse as it does in a human? If so, that is SCARY!!! Because my SF is already a naturally excitable enthusiastic fellow on a normal day, and over-the- top on windy/crisp fall days, that the idea of riding him whilst "under the influence" is positively frightening.

Van Teal
Sep. 7, 2000, 01:00 PM
Jair, from what I've heard about the cocaine issue is they give it, then wait for the high to wear off, then compete on the "low" I don't know if it's true just what I was told when I asked, why would anyone give that to their horse.

Colin
Sep. 7, 2000, 01:09 PM
Don't know anything about the cocaine thing, Jair...fortunately! That's down right ridiculous!

As for robaxin, yes, it's the same idea as people robaxin - relaxes back. Usually give the night before the show. Either IV or in pill form. Is legal (per AHSA) to give either 10cc IV or 13 pills.

Dex is used a lot because it has side effects the hunters like - makes the horses quieter....not "drugged" looking...just takes the edge off. However, as you can read on this thread, one must be very careful not to overuse it as it can cause founder....particularly in humid climates.

I showed my last horse on dex, robaxin and bute...and vitamin B-12. I didn't notice anything different about him, except that he was wasn't stiff or sore the day after showing. He was still his quiet old self - with a bit of spark at the oxers!!!

Each horse is different, and each rider and trainer have different feelings on the medications. However, if the meds being given are within AHSA regulations, I don't think anyone should be "slammed" for using them.

As for the cocaine....I can't even imagine! Talk about disgusting....I would wig out big time if I ever saw someone doing something like that to a horse!

pwynnnorman
Sep. 7, 2000, 01:25 PM
But colin, I know we've said this before, but what about the fact that MY vets would NEVER enable me to have access to such a regular supply? What about all those other "me's" out there who DO have to rest their horses? Why do we have to accept, say, losing a zone award, just because we have to rest our horses instead of "buy" their soundness? The winners' horses aren't any sounder that ours. They just have more amenable vets.

I realize that there will always be ways in which those who can afford to can get a leg up on others, but what I'm trying to indicate is that this isn't just a matter of $$$. Its a matter of influence--who has it and who doesn't and what the result is. The playing field will never be level, but shouldn't we at least TRY to reduce the impact of that kind of influence (whether it leads to killing horses for money, or just overlooking excessive medication)? Shouldn't we set as a goal that the soundess, simplest (as in, gadget-free) ride can be recognized and rewarded?

Colin
Sep. 7, 2000, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
But colin, I know we've said this before, but what about the fact that MY vets would NEVER enable me to have access to such a regular supply? What about all those other "me's" out there who DO have to rest their horses? Why do we have to accept, say, losing a zone award, just because we have to rest our horses instead of "buy" their soundness? The winners' horses aren't any sounder that ours. They just have more amenable vets.

I realize that there will always be ways in which those who can afford to can get a leg up on others, but what I'm trying to indicate is that this isn't just a matter of $$$. Its a matter of influence--who has it and who doesn't and what the result is. The playing field will never be level, but shouldn't we at least TRY to reduce the impact of that kind of influence (whether it leads to killing horses for money, or just overlooking excessive medication)? Shouldn't we set as a goal that the soundess, simplest (as in, gadget-free) ride can be recognized and rewarded? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, Pwynn...having the soundest horse that doesn't go on any meds is not the "name of the game". It's not what's required to win. I don't agree at all with overmedicating a lame animal in order to show it. That's why we have the AHSA drug rules, which, if followed, do not enable this. (Bute, robaxin and dex, in the legal amounts stated by the AHSA, will NOT make a lame horse sound....not even close).

As for $$$, dex, robaxin and bute are not very expensive. I have never had a problem acquiring these medications from my vet. He knows that I know the proper way to use them. I'm sure a vet wouldn't give them to "just anybody"....the vet needs to know you a little bit and trust your knowledge.

Influence...not sure what you mean by that. I don't really have a trainer at all. I do have a good relationship with my vet. I'm not sure how that plays into it, though. I've never found hunter shows to be about who you are or who you aren't. Just how well your horse goes and how well you ride. I'm essentially a "nobody" in the big show world, but have managed to win my fair share of big classes....

Most importantly, my opinion is that the drugs and medications I use (bute, dex, robaxin, ketofen) are not enough to make a lame horse sound. Not in the amounts I give them, anyway. If my horse is lame I won't show him. I use the meds mostly as a preventative so that my older horses don't get stiff and sore after showing all day and then being stuck in a 10x10 stall all night... arthritus, etc.

Sorry to rant and ramble....yipes -- this is way too long!!

Mikey
Sep. 7, 2000, 02:46 PM
Okay, here goes. I think I'm someone who sees both sides of the picture: I can speak as someone who's had experience (without my foreknowledge or approval) of the deleterious effects of dex and as someone who competes at the big A shows. I am vehemently opposed to the use of dex or azium as a calming drug on horses. It is doubtful that it even works and if it does, not on all horses. This is not what the drug was intended for and the consequences of misuse are horrific as have been noted.

I do not, however, see anything wrong with using, within the prescribed limits as defined by the AHSA, ketofen, bute, banamine, etc. I am quite sure that all of us as athletes have taken aspirin or advil for sore muscles or aches and pains. It is naive to think that our show horses don't also experience such minor aches and wouldn't benefit from those drugs. If they are administered within the prescribed parameters they will not mask a serious problem, but they will go a long way towards making the horse comfortable. If a horse isn't comfortable, then you run the risk of real injury because it may not use itself correctly and therefore over-stress another part of the body.

It isn't always so easy to leave a horse sitting in the stall if he's just bodysore when you've spent $10-20,000 to ship to wherever for the winter circuit; or to lease another one when you're already paying $1500 a month for one to "sit in the stall". I am absolutely not advocating pounding a horse into the ground or showing a horse that has a definite problem, but I say again that if the recommended dose of a certain NSAID will make the horse more comfortable (and let's not forget they are therapeutic) then what's wrong with that? A serious problem will not be masked if the drug is used properly.

I think we should look further at the problem; that is to say what are the some other factors that are at the root cause. To mention a few: point chasing which the current system encourages, extreme footing conditions (too deep or too hard), and current judging standards.

The last one is a particular issue for me. As long as what it takes to win a hunter class is a horse that goes around without swishing its tail or shaking its head, etc., etc., then you are going to have horses abused one way or another to try to meet that standard. Whether by over-lunging, overmedicating, withholding food and water, withdrawing blood or any number of other inhumane practices you are going to merely perpetuate the problem. That is one reason I am in favor of allowing a small quantifiable amount of a safe tranquilizer to be used. Most of us want to win and too many of us want to win at any cost. Why not provide a safe loophole to jump through and put an end to all this "creative" foolishness that only hurts the horses?

pwynnnorman
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:16 PM
I know it's nearly impossible to really get at this. People jsut see things in different ways. There's the whole question of "what is lame" after all.

To me, if the horse's performance is so altered by its condition (call it sore or whatever) such that it would not be competitive without introducing a D&M into its system, it's "lame." Perhaps it's because I've evented and as a result have iced legs at midnight and hand-walked for hours, etc. in order to deal with the body discomforts an equine athlete encounters WITHOUT introducing a special substance into its system.

The bottom line, Colin, is that competitiveness has indeed been "redefined" thanks to the D&M situation. Good horsemanship isn't rewarded, good pharmaceuticals are. (It's like those Blacksmith of the Year awards in the Park Horse industry: what exactly is the sport about? Who can fiddle the most with the shoes or who can ride and/or breed the best horses? Imagine honoring blacksmiths, rather than grooms, managers or trainers?)

So, anyway, what I'm saying is that even if its just a liddy, biddy stone bruise--or HIVES, in fact--if the horse will not be competitive due to its condition, it shouldn't compete. Bad luck, sure, but there's a lot of instances where bad luck can put you out of action. And the argument about expenses also doesn't hold much sway in comparison to the welfare of the horse--the LONG TERM welfare of the horse, that is (oh, and the welfare of the sport, too).

As to your vet and mine, I'm not sure about that either. You sound like you are using significant quantities of those drugs (over the YEARS, mind you--I'm not talking a short time which would clearly reflect negatively upon your use of them). Well, my vet would indeed look askance at me if I was always ordering such substances (through her) and I AM concerned about my vet's opinion of me and my operation. Of course, these days, one can get around that "awkwardness" by getting a use statement from the vet and ordering directly through catalogs.

How about an example? I used to use a lot of lutylase to short cycle mares because my stallion would get busy and couldn't handle them all. Having to explain that to a vet is no big deal to me. But if I were involved with performance horses and requiring a constant supply of performance affecting (note I didn't actually say "enhancing" drugs), well, that's a different situation for some people. Again, maybe not for you, but well, we see things differently.

Personally, I hope that more people are uncomfortable with that than are quite so casual about it--too many are in the show world are just too casual, too superficial, about their "managerial practices." Of course, "show" vets are also different (and they have to put food on their tables like everyone else, I realize that). If you live in an area where there are a lot of show barns, I'm sure the vets don't think twice about someone getting a lot of D&Ms through them: they're used to it and probably don't care or avoid forming any opinions on what those D&Ms are being used for (much less WHY).

But in an area where pleasure horses outnumber show horses, it's a different story entirely. The horse industry itself is like a different world--and you don't realize that until to step outside of it. Then, when you turn around and look back in, it's like: Egad!

One more comment: who here holding a less radical view on D&Ms would be willing to explain their D&M use to the general public? Any volunteers?

Weatherford
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:18 PM
Mikey, you are right about changing the system that is encouraging these practices. ANd we have taken stabs at that, both in rule change recommendations and here in our myriad of discussions.

However, assuming that the levels set by the AHSA for the drug cocktails are reasonable and safe, I think, is incorrect.

If you have followed the drugs discussion over the years, you will have noticed that the rule changes and levels originally recommended by the D&M committee are not generally the ones that get passed. The current rule are significantly more liberal than the orginal recommendations of Dr. Lengel and his colleagues. Including, their recommendation that cocktails (the use of more than one substance at a time) NOT be permitted. This was pounced upon by the powers that be as not being fair "to the poor horses", and, after a major advertising campaign (paid for, by the way, us - the AHSA members) the rule, as it stands was accepted by the H/J committee.

The vets I know and have talked to about this are horrified - every one. And all believe overmedication is a major contributing factor to the increased founders, ulcers, and other problems they see today.

Colin
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:27 PM
Well, I must say, Erin should be proud!

Look at us! We're discussing a BIG Controversial issue maturely! Wow!

Anyway, I can happily say that since the only horse I have now that can show is a 4 yr old mare with NO arthritus or "issues", that she will probably only be getting regumate at the shows next year! (well...unless you want to "count" the ear stuffers, which she will DEFINATELY be "sporting") LOL!

A friend of mine shows a 17 yr old TB gelding in the AA's here in Utah, and says that the most expensive part about the horse are his meds! (Adequon, legend, hock injections). Talk about pricy items! One of the main reasons I was so willing to sell my "older" horse....just couldn't afford all that!

Twister
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
And all believe overmedication is a major contributing factor to the increased founders, ulcers, and other problems they see today.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My friend was stabled across from a trainer who is her good friend. As the week passed, I also became friendly with her. One evening, she asked me to hold a horse for her while she medicated and the amount of stuff that went into that horse was amazing!! EPM medication, ulcer medication, ketophen, and robaxin. I jokingly made a comment about the length of the drug interaction labels. She paused and said, 'Hhhmmm, I don't know.' Yikes!!!!

Showpony
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:40 PM
Mikey-

I can definitley see your point about legalizing a small amount of tranquilizer.

As long as horses who lope around expresionless win and horses who show a little life and personality lose, SOME people will do what ever it takes to get the winning look whether it is good or bad for the horse.

As long as that is the case, I think that giving a little ace would be the lesser of two evils! I think it would cause a horse little or no harm to show on some ace as apposed to lunging for hours every weekend and schooling over hundreds of jumps to get it "right". Maybe being able to show on ace would help eliminate the need for the pain medications because the horses would stay sounder longer(less pounding).

Not to mention that maybe some horses that
could not be show horses because they are to high strung and sensitive would now have a place. And the price for show horses MIGHT? become more reasonable because the "perfect" horse(one that is slow, never spooks, never changes it's rythm, jumps great, moves great,etc.) would not be as hard to find.

Of course that is not the ideal solution (changing the judging and winning-at-all- cost mentality would be) but it might be more realistic!

[This message has been edited by showpony (edited 09-07-2000).]

Tiramit
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:44 PM
This has to be one of the more disturbing threads ever on this BB... It's so sad to think that these great athletes aren't getting the opportunity to really show off their true talents because of some sort of chemical augmentation.

Unfortunately, I don't think the drugs are the problem, and banning them won't eliminate equine abuse on show grounds. Yes, I want them gone, but their existance isn't what's killing / injuring horses. It's the attitude, the win at all costs, big business theme that has taken over showing. As someone already mentioned, if the drugs are taken away, what will keep people from over-lunging, over-bitting, under-feeding or dehydrating horses instead? Some of the horror stories I've heard from shows are: taking horses into a back stall or trailer and literally sticking a syringe into a leg vein and draining a bucket of blood (bet that horse is quiet now! what a great win that will be), chaining or "snub-tying" a horse with its head high so that the next day you have instant low "head set," or even the tried and true method of burying a horse up to its nostrils to get the wild out of it (best done at home, of course, but this can be adapted to shows). I apologize for mentioning these horrors, but I wanted to illustrate the point that there are people who think nothing about hurting a horse for a win - and there weren't any drugs involved.

It's almost like horses would have to go into a prison-like setting with 24-hour surveillance.. Testing the horses that place in classes - not just the champions or reserve because trainers still get paid for that 8th at Devon - is definitely a step in the right direction. Of course, for the older horse, a LITTLE bit of bute may be ok, but the limits will have to be logical and with the horses' long-term health in mind.

By the way, we haven't really touched on joint injections and all the nice supplements to make the little darlings lives easier week after week, but I think that's becoming an incredible problem. I know 5 and 6 year old horses on quarterly hock injection schedules - WHAT???? My five year old hasn't even jumped more than 4 times in her life!

Oh, and yes, I do have first-hand A show experience.

Tiramit
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
if the horse will not be competitive due to its condition, it shouldn't compete. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That just about sums everything up. Well said.

CTT
Sep. 7, 2000, 03:48 PM
The reason I am so anti drugs is because I learned my lesson. My horse when in the saddle seat industry use to get injections in his stifle and suspension to preform correctly. I have seen first hand how it can ruine a hrse. The day my horse cam off of a trailer at scotsdale was the worse day in my life. I had never used drugs on my hunters or jumpers. When Farkel came off that trailer he could not bend no contract his hind right leg. When he went into sergery the amount of dammage was unbaliveable. infact the only reason we were noticeing it was cause the shot was wearing off but the fact remained that he had been in this condition for maby 2 months. so that whole time we were continueing to do damage and never knew not to mention he didn't untill the drug began ot ware off. if he never got those shots we would never have had this happen. 4 years later and not one day of being riden since he is once again sound. but the money and amount of folow up sergerys were what tore me apart. This was a horse that loved to show and a horse that was so inocent that had to suffer threw all of this because f a dumb injection that with more training could have done without. A decisoin I can never forgive myself for makeing. If i had known this would have hapend or the pocabilaties that could have hapend i would have never of let my trainer have the vet inject him.

Our trainers should be someone we trust and when they apt for such things i when we need to ask questios and if we can't get answers then it is time to leave nomatter how good they are. We are the owners and we have that little voice inside of us that tells us little things. Don't be nieave do what you feal is right and never say OK without understanding the whole picture.

Janet
Sep. 7, 2000, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaboobafoo:
when my trainer tells me that she took it upon herself to give him two tabs of bute the night before.

How can you stop trainers from doing things of this sort? I was so mad I could have walked out....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why didn't you?

Flash44
Sep. 7, 2000, 08:45 PM
Every time I read posts on this thread my jaw hits the floor. I now look like I took one on the chin from Mike Tyson.

Although I was aware that drug usage was prevalent on the circuit, I did not think that it was this widespread or accepted. I've been with 2 trainers, both of whom done rated shows. Neither one has ever suggested anything other than a bute after the show. I can't imagine having to give my horse several medications on a routine basis before every show!!

It seems that people are taking shortcuts and quick fixes just to get those zone points for a few years. Don't you realize that a tough horse makes you a better rider? If you just drug your horse, how will you deal with the next high strung horse that comes along? Dont' you care about your horse and his future? So he gets a little arthritic as he ages. Maybe if you would have trained him instead of drugging him, he would be suitable for a youngster to do long stirrup or puddle jumpers or some easy local shows.

Maybe if you stay home a few weekends and give your horses a nice break during the winter, they would be sounder and fresher through the summer.

Sure, a lot of trainers suggest meds to their clients. What would happen if you said NO? It is your choice. Learn to ride and learn to look after your horse properly and you won't need all that garbage.

Zaboobafoo
Sep. 7, 2000, 09:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Why didn't you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Its a long story Janet...been with this trainer for ten years now...worked for her until March of this year...we will have a talk before the next show that she does not make ANY decisions concerning my horse without consulting me, or I will find another trainer to help my friend with him....

Today I had another interesting conversation with a fellow trainer about the direction our sport has taken. I love the hunters and I love the world...but it is so sad to see how little the horse is meaning....and how much money and ribbons means. Its not just the horse sports, its society...and I hate it.

Richard! :D
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Also - the use of cocaine in horses has cropped up several times in the news in the past year or so, and was wondering if anyone knew what the people administering it were hoping to achieve? For those vets/knowledgeable pharamceuetical type out there - would it create a "high" for the horse as it does in a human?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What people do is they give cocaine for a few days before the show and then the horses get low after the high for the show. Its an awful thing to do and will not only get you in trouble with the AHSA, but with the Feds. NOT a good thing to do. Giving illegial doses of drugs is NOT good because it can mask real lameness, not just wear and tear.

Richard! :D
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
[B]
Unfortunately, I don't think the drugs are the problem, and banning them won't eliminate equine abuse on show grounds. Yes, I want them gone, but their existance isn't what's killing / injuring horses. It's the attitude, the win at all costs, big business theme that has taken over showing. As someone already mentioned, if the drugs are taken away, what will keep people from over-lunging, over-bitting, under-feeding or dehydrating horses instead? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


hi. there are almost NO legal drugs that really do anything with a tranquilizing affect. Some horses react differently to different things. I know some people who get a bit sleepy when they take asprin.. some horses are like that. I think its all in people's mind. Mostly horses just get pain meds... Usually 10cc of banamine or bute the night before a show... 10cc is the equilivant of 2 grams or 2 pills. Thats like taking 2 adville the night before you run a marathon.. NOT much at all. Most of its effects have worn off come show time. There are a few more powerfull drugs that take away more pain, but you have to get a vet report.

Richard! :D
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:

As for robaxin, yes, it's the same idea as people robaxin - relaxes back. Usually give the night before the show. Either IV or in pill form. Is legal (per AHSA) to give either 10cc IV or 13 pills.
!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AHSA lady told me you give 50cc 6 hours before you show.. thats just way to much IMO so we gave 20cc like the night before.

Spunky
Sep. 7, 2000, 10:54 PM
So, to my understanding, the problems underlying the misuse of drugs on our horses can be attributable to:

1. Overshowing; which has been supported by many professionals in their COTH columns;

2. The judge's focus -- on the definition of the "perfect hunter".

3. Novice riders desiring to participate in our oh-so-elite sport who are unfortunately not capable of piloting a horse around a 3-foot course without assistance from more than just the pro ride or pro tune-up.

Considering all the barriers (would someone be so kind as to list them please -- I know they are scattered around threads on this BB) -- what can we do to improve the hunter-jumper show circuit and show world?

I'm posting this also on a new thread. I invite everyone to post their ideas there, so that this thread may continue to be dedicated to the D&M issue -- which is not a problem, but a sympton of the problem!

creseida
Sep. 7, 2000, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:

<snip> Thats like taking 2 adville the night before you run a marathon.. NOT much at all. Most of its effects have worn off come show time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why give it at all? Take an extra half hour and gradually warm the horse up and the stiffness will be gone. Yes, I realise that this is an archaic method, but gosh, it has worked so well for hundreds of years.... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

OTOH, if the horse doesn't warm out of it, then *red flag here* there is a bigger issue at hand, ooh, like an injury, perhaps???? and the horse should not be shown at all , and rested until healed, irregardless of the "inconvenience" it may cause. It's called the cost of doing business. Deal with it.

The above is how a true equestrian would handle the situation...unless, of course, they are so greedy that their horse's welfare is simply unimportant, or so callous in their attitude that when this one breaks they just go buy another one. But then again, this type of person would not be called a true equestrian... they would be called something else unsuitable to post to this board, so I shall refrain from saying it. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif

Believe it or not, it is possible to win big without The Cocktail. I've done it and I know others who have done the same, and continue to do so regularly. To believe you need to maintain a horse on drugs to win is simply...stupid.

pwynnnorman
Sep. 8, 2000, 11:01 AM
And I ask again: who will volunteer to explain all this stuff to the public when they inquire?

Say the National Horse Show DOES move to KY and DOES get great public attention such that reporters want to get behind the scenes looks at how horses get to such a pinnacle of success. Say some enterprising reporter decides to do a "year in the life" story and follows some big timer around. What WILL you (who are so casual about the use of so many drugs because "that's just the way it is" on the circuit) SAY???? How can you explain it? How can you even "fess up" to it?

Janet
Sep. 8, 2000, 11:15 AM
I said "Why didn't you?"
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaboobafoo:

Its a long story Janet..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mostly a rhetorical question, rather than challenging you directly for an explaniation.

Too often people forget that that IS an option.

Ghazzu
Sep. 8, 2000, 01:16 PM
Reading some of the above posts, which give what looks like a supply requisition for a pharmacy as a list of what horses routinely show on, I don't know whether to cry or just vomit.

I'm not a starry eyed purist/idealist. I can certainly understand the occasional use of low end doses of bute at a multiday show,etc. but to routinely load up one's horse with the shopping list of pharmaceuticals some do is madness.

If a horse needs all that crap to compete, either
A)the horse is wrong for the job
B) the job is excessive
C) the job description needs to be rewritten
D)more than one of the above.

Someone else mentioned the fact that horses don't get the "down time" they used to--showing is now a year round "industry".
IMO, that is a large part of the problem--horses don't get enough break from the endless cycle of showing/schooling/showing. Even if they don't need the schooling, their rider does. Their brains get cooked, or their bodies break down, or both.

I know it's gone too far--it's too much of an "industry" now--there's too much $$$ tied up in it, but unless there is a radical change in the system as a whole, I can't see that there's ever going to be a real change for the better insofar as the horses are concerned.

I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just the shorter days are making me pessimistic. For the horses' sakes, I hope so.

Snowbird
Sep. 8, 2000, 01:55 PM
It is not the fact that it is year round or that it is an industry as well as a sport.

It is the fact that horses have become a means to stroke some very personal egos instead of an exhibition of good training methods. The "sportsmen" have been replaced by people who prefer to buy their ribbons to learning how to ride.

That is the systemic change which has corrupted showing horses.

A ZERO TOLERANCE for the use of medication to make attitude adjustments or to cover lameness would go a long way to correcting the situation.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-08-2000).]

havaklu
Sep. 8, 2000, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:
The AHSA lady told me you give 50cc 6 hours before you show.. thats just way to much IMO so we gave 20cc like the night before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DH the "AHSA lady" must have meant 5(five)cc not 50 (fifty)cc. I'm not aware of any med that can be administered in that quantity 6 hours out.

On another note. All the Azium/Dex info has been educational. I remember hearing something about 2mg vs 4mg Dex (injectable). Something about one of them does show up when tested and one doesn't. Perhaps something to do with water vs. oil based. Does any of this ring a bell???

DMK
Sep. 8, 2000, 03:10 PM
Havaklu - I looked at AHSA rule - believe it or not 50cc is correct http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif as is the 6 hour rule - read that somewhere in article by Lengel, but couldn't tell you where. I guess injectable robaxin is somewhat more diluted than most other drugs (I don't believe I have ever seen the inj. version). Of course those who showed BEFORE the drug rule, remember that some hotter than acceptable ponies got 30,000 mg of robaxin two hours before competition, rather than 5000 12 or 6 hrs before competition...

As for dex, the 2 and 4 mg were both water based, only I have seen dex phosphate at 2 and 4mg, which has a higher level of administration than plain dex (interesting stuff, CTT's green book site)- it must have a slower or differing absorption rate. I didn't see a 4 mg dex (phosphate or otherwise) on that site, which has ALL approved drugs on it. Maybe 4 mg was voluntarily removed from production due to ease of overdosing?

havaklu
Sep. 8, 2000, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Havaklu - I looked at AHSA rule - believe it or not 50cc is correct http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif as is the 6 hour rule - read that somewhere in article by Lengel, but couldn't tell you where. I guess injectable robaxin is somewhat more diluted than most other drugs (I don't believe I have ever seen the inj. version). Of course those who showed BEFORE the drug rule, remember that some hotter than acceptable ponies got 30,000 mg of robaxin two hours before competition, rather than 5000 12 or 6 hrs before competition...

As for dex, the 2 and 4 mg were both water based, only I have seen dex phosphate at 2 and 4mg, which has a higher level of administration than plain dex (interesting stuff, CTT's green book site)- it must have a slower or differing absorption rate. I didn't see a 4 mg dex (phosphate or otherwise) on that site, which has ALL approved drugs on it. Maybe 4 mg was voluntarily removed from production due to ease of overdosing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks DMK. I think at show we use injectable Robaxin but I know none of the horses are getting 50cc of it because I would notice a syrynge that large. I think the horses that get Robaxin get 10-20cc the evening before. My trainer medicates in the evenings when all the horses are put away for the night (some meds are top dressed in their dinner). I think it is done this way to ensure at least 12 hrs since one never really knows how fast the classes will run or when they will be posted in the order.

Even though AHSA rules allow some meds 6 hourse out I think you would be playing "Russian roulette" because every horse metabolizes slightly differently.

Also if the horse gets the meds at night and looks/feels sore in the morning, you know you have an issue and should head on up to the office and scratch.

Basically it is a matter of common sense. Give them their NSAID before "bedtime", let them have a good nights rest and see if they looks "chipper" in the morning. Basically the same logic we would apply to ourselves. Or at least the logic we should apply...right DMK? One shouldn't attempt to ride if one is feeling ill /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

horsenut
Sep. 8, 2000, 04:27 PM
Just thought I'd include a snippet from the Eric Lamaze article in one of the Canadian papers. To me it's one of the most depressing parts of the article.

His lawyer is quoted saying: "Everyone knows that with equestrian riding, if you want to cheat, you drug your horse ..." (emphasis added)

And doesn't THAT make our sport look great in the eyes of non-horsepeople everywhere who opened up their Sports section to this gem this morning? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I can hear PETA knocking down our doors now ...

Richard! :D
Sep. 8, 2000, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by creseida:
Then why give it at all? Take an extra half hour and gradually warm the horse up and the stiffness will be gone. Yes, I realise that this is an archaic method, but gosh, it has worked so well for hundreds of years.... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Footing at shows is less than ideal. Lots of times stalls are shavings ontop of concrete. The medication still has some effect in the morning, but not as great. All the horses (no matter how young) move the tinyest bit better when theyve been medicated. Its just a nice thing to do for them. I mean they can go to bed and not be sore, and there legs dont puff up from not being able to be turned out. I heard at WEF they have real padocks and stuff. that sounds cool. At gulfport the "padocks" we rented for the thing were as big as my horses stall at home. LOL like i said the ammount of medications you give a horse really wont mask real lameness, but it makes there step longer and them just be more confy with themselves.

Richard! :D
Sep. 8, 2000, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
[B] DH the "AHSA lady" must have meant 5(five)cc not 50 (fifty)cc. I'm not aware of any med that can be administered in that quantity 6 hours out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope its five zero. i kinda asked her again because thats 5 10cc shots. But i think thats because the lady who owns my barn is a doctor and she gets legend and robaxin made by some pharmisist for like 10% of the price a vet would charge.. so the ML/CC or whatever must have been different.

Richard! :D
Sep. 8, 2000, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Havaklu - I looked at AHSA rule - believe it or not 50cc is correct http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif as is the 6 hour rule - read that somewhere in article by Lengel, but couldn't tell you where. I guess injectable robaxin is somewhat more diluted than most other drugs (I don't believe I have ever seen the inj. version). Of course those who showed BEFORE the drug rule, remember that some hotter than acceptable ponies got 30,000 mg of robaxin two hours before competition, rather than 5000 12 or 6 hrs before competition...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My trainer thinks Robaxin is worthless because before drug rules someone he knew used it on horses in large doses and it really didnt make them quiet or anything... and you can kill them by dehydration too karin told me i think.

CTT
Sep. 8, 2000, 06:20 PM
Everyone there is alot of handy info on this thread that I posted on and even the link to the greenbook that DMK talked about. If you are curious about the drugs you are useing go to this thread to get the link.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002979.html

[This message has been edited by CTT (edited 09-08-2000).]

DMK
Sep. 8, 2000, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
Or at least the logic we should apply...right DMK? One shouldn't attempt to ride if one is feeling ill /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, now, we are talking about the person who insisted on showing in a vetrap "boot", with a severe 2nd degree burn, and almost passed out from nausea (sp?) due to unbelievable amount of antibiotics, so I do believe I will pass on responding to your question /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CTT
Sep. 8, 2000, 09:39 PM
DMK you seam to amaze me http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Snowbird
Sep. 8, 2000, 10:28 PM
I must be very slow witted. I cannot comprehend the tolerance for the level of medication that seems to be accepted as a general practice.

If a horse can't do it, he can't do it! That's the whole point of showing. If you have dog to show and it doesn't have what it takes to make best of show at Westminster, you don't surgically correct him. You say Oh! Well he is pet quality. To alter a horse with medication so that he can do what he really can't do! Doesn't that in itself sound dishonest and not only cruel abuse.

This thread could make me join the animal activists. I am starting to believe that if we will tolerate such things, if we can easily refer to these abuses, then who are we?

Why? are you all not activists? Why are you silent and accepting? It's not enough to sit around and moan and complain, it is time to be heard and take positive action. Write to Dr.Lengel, write to the Drugs and Medications Committee and let them know how you feel, or shut up and leave me to my "dream world" of honor and integrity!

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-08-2000).]

havaklu
Sep. 8, 2000, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:

My trainer thinks Robaxin is worthless because before drug rules someone he knew used it on horses in large doses and it really didnt make them quiet or anything... and you can kill them by dehydration too karin told me i think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought Robaxin was used mostly to relieve sore back muscles. We Amateurs and Children can be hard on their backs /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I've never heard that it has any calming effect. In fact one trainer I know DOESN'T use it because he thinks if they feel TOO good they will be more frisky.

havaklu
Sep. 8, 2000, 11:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Well, now, we are talking about the person who insisted on showing in a vetrap "boot", with a severe 2nd degree burn, and almost passed out from nausea (sp?) due to unbelievable amount of antibiotics, so I do believe I will pass on responding to your question /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and don't you feel better now that you have CONFESSED???

Everyone remind DMK that riding when you should be seeking medical care is not advisable.

This is getting off topic, but I was "cured" of riding when ill by my trainer. I was taking a lesson when I had a bad cold. I seemed to have a difficult time finding the jumps. My trainer scolded/yelled/humiliated me in front of the entire barn about punishing my horse when I was TOO SICK TO BE RIDING!!!!

I went home and didn't go back to the barn until I was well. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

Richard! :D
Sep. 9, 2000, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
I thought Robaxin was used mostly to relieve sore back muscles. We Amateurs and Children can be hard on their backs /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I've never heard that it has any calming effect. In fact one trainer I know DOESN'T use it because he thinks if they feel TOO good they will be more frisky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SUPPOSITLY <g> its a muscle relaxer. i dont think it has any calming effects. I think it does like you said

Zaboobafoo
Sep. 9, 2000, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
I said "Why didn't you?"
Mostly a rhetorical question, rather than challenging you directly for an explaniation.

Too often people forget that that IS an option.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its hard because most of the trainers out here, and out in the show world in general, think nothing a few bute tabs...in fact my trainer and mother(good friends) have often made me feel like I am the one doing my horse an injustice when I don't want to give him any medication...could you imagine? I am the bad horse owner because I want to know if my love hurts.

Most show barns that I know of think nothing of strolling down the aisle and giving each horse a little of this and a little of that. The think nothing of working hard to "keep a horse in one piece" when it should most likely just be retired!! When gets to be work to keep a horse going, don't you think that maybe it shouldn't still be going? When I retired my eq horse at the beginning of my last Junior year, the said trainer and my mom got so mad at me...because, god forbid, I threw away my chances of going to medal finals again for my horse's welfare.

The problem is that as long as the trainer's think in this way, the owners will follow...most are simply products of what they are taught. And as long as money and greed drives the world and society, this is the way trainer's think and act. Reminds me why I have stepped away from the show ring the past year...

Flash44
Sep. 9, 2000, 09:06 AM
When I sprained my back last year, I was on Robaxin for about 2 weeks. I remember clearly that there was a warning label stating you should not operate motor vehicles or heavy machinery while on this medication!!!

Anyone from MD? Wasn't the driver of that light rail train that crashed on Robaxin at the time of the crash?

DMK
Sep. 9, 2000, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
Everyone remind DMK that riding when you should be seeking medical care is not advisable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, to be fair, I had sought medical attention... I just failed to mention that I was returning to the horse show in 72 hours... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 9, 2000, 04:21 PM
Robaxin (methocarbamol) is a muscle relaxant. Before the AHSA imposed the current permissable levels there were trainers that would grind up 60 or more tablets and shove it down their horses' throats in an effort to produce the desired hunter performance.

When friends of mine recommended I try it with my horse to "take the bucks out" I asked my employer (vet) about the dose they were recommending. He was horrified and said that it was an appropriate dose for a horse with tetanus!

The dose that is allowed today is only therapeutic. However, unless the horse actually has a sore back, I doubt it does very much good.

It is worthwhile remembering that no matter how "safe" any medication is the body at some point will need to break down the drug and excrete it. So, somewhere along the line, that "safe" dose of Bute, Robaxin, Ketofen, etc. will cause your horse's liver or kidneys to work just a little harder.

I just don't believe in medicating (myself included) "just in case" something should go wrong.

Nina

pwynnnorman
Sep. 9, 2000, 04:57 PM
Nina (or any of the other knowledgeable posters), what are the symptoms of kidney and/or liver trouble? Also, besides bute, do any of these other medications cause ulcers? Or, if they don't, what do they do if the horse already has ulcers? Can the exacerbate the problem? If so, how badly and can horses get dangerous, bleeding ulcers?

Weatherford
Sep. 10, 2000, 11:25 PM
Ditto Pwynn's question. Nina?

As has been posted elsewhere, this controversial topic has been deleted from another BB. And the originator of the controversy was simply being direct, open, and honest with first hand observations.

Oh well - we at least, I hope, will continue to discuss and agrue http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif , and hopefull make some difference in this strange world of ours.

Ghazzu
Sep. 11, 2000, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Nina (or any of the other knowledgeable posters), what are the symptoms of kidney and/or liver trouble? Also, besides bute, do any of these other medications cause ulcers? Or, if they don't, what do they do if the horse already has ulcers? Can the exacerbate the problem? If so, how badly and can horses get dangerous, bleeding ulcers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Kidney damage is, unfortunately, subclinical until it reaches a point where about 75% of the function has been lost. The body compensates till then. At that point, symptoms develop, but they are somewhat nonspecific--weight loss, poor appetite, anemia, etc. Keep in mind that most kidney damage is irreversible.

Liver damage--yellow mucous membranes, possible fever, lack of appetite, weight loss,colic type signs, possible prolonged bleeding times, decresed metabolism of many drugs, etc. The liver has more capacity to recover from insult.

Corticosteroids (Azium) definitely have ulcer potential. And yes, ulcer-causing drugs will make preexisting cases worse.

gymnastic
Sep. 11, 2000, 10:30 AM
Wow. If this thread isn't reason enough for ALL OF US to show up at the AHSA convention and the drug forums there, I don't know what is. IF the professionals have been getting away with what doesn't make sense for the good of the horses, then we had better do something about it. Remember, the managers WANT these horses to be shown and shown even more, because it's $$$$. It's also $$$$ for the trainers. Un-real that we let this happen.

Magnolia
Sep. 11, 2000, 11:09 AM
You know, it is ridiculous what we ask our horses to do for the sake of a ribbon.
You go out, run a 10K, walk a bit, then sit in a 5x5 box all day. Next morning, walk a bit, run your 10K, sit in a box. Get on a trailer for 5 hours, Get off and sit in a box. Maybe if these people turned their horses out they wouldn't need all the meds. Horses by nature like to roam about in a herd and graze all day.
I cant imagine that doing the show circuit is good for a horses soundness. They have no time to be horses. I can see doing a show one or two times a month, but must it be every week with no rest for months for these poor guys!
I used to ride at a hunter barn. Because I had the least expensive horse, he spent a lot of time turned out with his buddies. The fancy ones were turned out in the indoor for 20 minutes alone, lest they hurt themselves. My horse was always sound and in good spirits, theirs were often sore and very sour. Of course they needed meds.
I think that the big picture is not overmedicating the horses, but people who don't care about the horse's well being.
I think a good solution would be to make awards based on say a 12 show performance record, weighting prestigious shows. Then it would do no good to chase points every weekend and run a horse down to the point where they need meds to perform. Also, between shows, the horses could relax and be horses again.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 11, 2000, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
Nina (or any of the other knowledgeable posters), what are the symptoms of kidney and/or liver trouble? Also, besides bute, do any of these other medications cause ulcers? Or, if they don't, what do they do if the horse already has ulcers? Can the exacerbate the problem? If so, how badly and can horses get dangerous, bleeding ulcers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm kind of fitting this in before I rush off again so I hope I get this semi all right.

Kidney and/or liver damage can truck along subclinically for a period of time. Then something sends it "over the edge" so to speak and you end up with a very sick animal.

One of the classic signs of liver or kidney disease or damage is polyuria coupled with polydypsia or PU/PD. In other words, overconsumption of water (PD) coupled with copious urination (PU) as the animal or human struggles to maintain the body's homeostasis.

A damaged liver, in addition to the symptoms described by Ghazzu, may also manifest itself through sweating even if the animal does not have a fever, cessation of urination and intestinal motility, impaired vision, indigestion, restlessness, irritablity, walking in circles or straight
lines constantly, head pressing against solid objects, walking into solid
objects, yawning, trouble breathing, lack of appetite and constipatation. Some of the symptoms may be due to decreased ability to detoxify chemicals circulating in the bloodstream. Nitrogenous substances, possibly ammonia, reach the brain and cause
behavior changes that point to liver problems

Kidney disease is reportedly relatively rare in equines. Kidney damage can take two forms. The most common form of kidney damage is nephrosis which is inflammation and degeneration of the kidneys. The fatty tissue of the kidneys deteriorates and necrotic areas of tissue develop in the layer of epithelial cells lining the renal tubules which reabsorb substances from the blood that passes through the kidneys. Tubules secrete compounds involved in formation of urine by the kidney and collect urine where it can be further concentrated before being excreted. It can be caused by toxic substances brought to the kidney by circulating blood. The toxins may be either produced by body during some disease process, the metabolism of foreign substances (drugs) or may be introduced by the ingestion of chemicals or plants poisons.

Urinalysis may show low specific gravity (non concentrated or dilute urine), casts from the diseased tubules, protein, etc. Other symptoms include lack of appetite, below normal body temperature, slow heart rate and small, weak pulse.

Nephrosis can be chronic. Supportive care may prolong life. Think of an old cat with chronic renal failure. As long as it can drink enough to diurese itself it can compensate for the kidney damage.

Nephritis is rare and usually secondary to another disease such as nephrosis. Prolonged nephrosis may result in glomerulonephritis which involves glomeruli. The glomeruli are coils of blood vessels in the kidneys.

Symptoms of nephritis include edema, fast heart rate, difficulty breathing after exercise and dysuria (the cessation of urination) which points to cessation of kidney function.

Antifreeze poisoning (the old type of antifreeze) shows how detoxificatin of a foreign substance can affect the body. When an animal ingests antifreeze the liver sees the antifreeze as a toxin and goes to work metabolizing it. The metabolite is actually a large crystal that ends up blocking the kidney's tubules. This leads to renal failure and death as ammonias, etc. build up in the blood. The antidote for antifreeze poisoning is alchohol because the liver, interestingly enough, perceives alchohol as the bigger evil and goes to work breaking it down, leaving the polyethylene glycol (antifreeze) to pass through the kidneys where it is excreted with no further harm.

We used to put our antifreeze poisonings on an IV drip of grain alchohol. It was a worrisome day when they took it off the shelf at the liquor store. These day I think you need a script to purchase it.

You haven't lived until you've seen a pit bull with a hangover /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. We had one.

Nina

pwynnnorman
Sep. 11, 2000, 08:09 PM
Thank you, Ghazzu and Nina. Your posts have been very helpful. If you return to this thread, would you mind answering one more little question (I'm also goign to email you privately, but I haven't checked yet to see if your addresses are available, so in case they aren't, I'm posting this here, OK?):

I've heard that legume hays (specifically, alfalfa) are hard on the kidneys. Is that true and to what extent? Other than the other metabolic cautions in feeding a lot of legume, if a thin (and/or hard keeping) horse tolerates a lot of legume hay and that seems to keep him in good weight--NOT excessive weight--is there still a risk?

Please note that I ask this in part because it is connected to the D&M issue (I'm thinking of the way various issues may compound each other), but also because my stallion (a very difficult keeper) has been on free choice, the-best-alfalfa-I-can-find and has kept his condition well without becoming obese. However, since the trauma of the last move my barn made, he isn't doing well at all--his coat condition, appetite, libido and energy level are all fine, but he's got "poverty lines," so thin has he become. I couldn't get alfalfa for him for @one month, then got rather stalky stuff, and now he's on 2nd cutting which is mainly a broad leaf of grass hay, with some timothy and just a little bit of alfalfa (plus a "senior" horse feed based on beet pulp--he's 20).

Sorry for the unscheduled consult, but I'd sure appreciate your evaluation. He has a history of ulcers, but cleans up his grain if you give him a bucket-full and let him nibble all day (free choice of everything has always been what keeps him happiest). He HAS always urinated a lot--for years, in fact. I assumed that was from the legume hay, but he doesn't drink any more excessively than his two-bucket sons (they are fairly big--16.1 and 2 hands, TBs with fairly heavy bone and substantial bodies--and are decidedly active/energetic horses).

Well, anyway, thanks a lot, regardless.

pwynnnorman
Sep. 11, 2000, 10:01 PM
BTW, did I miss something somewhere? Someone on the Towerheads BB said that they would post here about what happened there (to the thread that started THIS thread: specifially one called "controversy" on which the drugs and meds issue came up. People responded and then the thread was DELETED!).

That's sad and scary to me--that such an important issue is too...what?, too "sensitive" or something?, to be discussed openly and frankly. Or, worse still, that some just don't want to think about it at all? Maybe that's what's wrong (with this issue, this industry and most of the issues in this country!).

[This message has been edited by pwynnnorman (edited 09-11-2000).]

hoopoe
Sep. 12, 2000, 10:34 AM
Quality Alfalfa hay contains a higher content of protein than other hays. It may contain a higher mineral content as well.

The kidneys do many taskes in the body, one of which is to filter and remove protein waste. The theory in caring for an animal in kidney failure ( or disease) is to lower the amount of waste protein in the body to reduce some of the stress on the kidneys.

Now simply lowering the protein in the diet is not enough. The quality of the protein is a factor. High quality protein product will digest in the bowel and be used by the body more thoroughly than low quality product. This is most evident in carnivores, the quality of protein in dog and cat food for our kidney patients is most important.

I would suspect that an older horse is going to make better use, in the long run, of a high quality alfalfa then a lesser grade one. High quality hay of any kind wins over low quality alfalfa, though your horse will tell you best.

As a rule, animals will function normally with kidneys in decline until aprox 75% is lost. Then they can no longer compensate for the loss. In cats, animals over 7 years old are considered to have a certain amount of normal kidney loss due to ageing. Than is 1/2 of the normal average life span of a cat. I would certainly assume that a horse of 20 should be presumed to have a certain amount of kidney function loss.

By using high quality senior feed formulas and to feed the highest quality hay possible, you are doing the best you can for your horse. A veterinary nutritionist could answer the question " Is the horse gaining any time by manipulating the protein level of the diet."

You might find more in depth discussion in a magazine like "The Horse". I find their articles the best when it comes to health care. ( www.thehorse.com) (http://www.thehorse.com))

I have not chimed in on the drug issue.

It was mentioned that the use of Dexamethasone was "common practice" in dressage. I don't know. I have been active in dressage since 1985 and it was not until reading about Dex use here that I had ever heard of anyone using it except for tratment of allergy and immune reactions.

I am profoundly disappointed in what the horse show world appears to have become at the upper levels. I do not know what the answer will be, though I tend to favor the concept of national championships over highest points wins end of the year awards. I am sure the bests horses will win in the end, and it might save a few miles of wear and tear on the animals.

I think in the long run we have lost sight that the animals did not ask for this assignment in their life. It is up to us to respect their spirits and protect their rights.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Sep. 12, 2000, 08:58 PM
Wynn, I'm posting this here because I had a rather interesting e-mail in-box experience this morning and I have no way of telling if you e-mailed me and I lost it. I think Bill (as in MS) is watching me and this is in response to some of the Windoze humor I have archived on my hard drive http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif .

Hoopoe has already covered a lot of the ground I would have gone over. The only thing I would add is that the consumption of alfalfa hay may sometimes increase frequency and amount of urination due to the estrones that are present in legumes. This is not pathological in nature.

I have had problems in the past with some of my harder keepers when I have been unable to obtain good quality hay be it grass, mixed or alfalfa. Last winter I had a lot of problems getting decent stuff. The drought in Eastern PA had taken its toll on my supplier. My two
broodmares lost some weight and I wasn't thrilled with the way my retiree looked so I put them on Purina Athlete which was developed as a calorie supplement for horses.

I started them out on one pound per day (split into two feedings) and gradually increased them to two pounds per day until they had gained the weight and then dropped them back to one pound per day until the new hay came in.

I'm not a Purina salesman but I really like this stuff. It's kind of like pelleted oil so you don't have the rancidity/palatability problems. Even my fussy eaters will eat it.
You would have to feed a lot of grain in order to get the same amount of calories that you get from one pound of Athlete. I'm not in favor of feeding a lot of grain but, as you know, when you can't get good hay you just can't get enough calories into them to maintain their weight, let alone gain some. The only drawback is that the stuff is pricey.

I wouldn't worry about alfalfa exacerbating the ulcer problems. If anything the more hay you can encourage him to eat the better.

Nina (still rebuilding her inbox)

pwynnnorman
Sep. 12, 2000, 09:03 PM
Thanks Ladies! I do worry about the old man and I can never find the exact information I need when I search the sites. Your comments are greatly appreciated--perhaps I can cross that one off the list now!

SGray
Mar. 13, 2001, 08:03 AM
see http://www.nj.com/columns/jaffer/index.ssf?/columns/jaffer/1299ddb.html

Nikki^
Mar. 13, 2001, 08:59 AM
For, me, before I put anything in my horse i ask myself, would I take this? I don't drug my hunter, but if he needed meds for any reason cause he was sick, i weight out the pros and cons. My dad is a pharmicist and he says not to take meds unless it's really needed. That goes with antibiotics, pain killers, tranqs, etc.....

Why do people drug their horses, knowing that it could possibly hurt him and the rider. That's not showing much respect to the sprot. Why are some people hell bent on winning? If winning is the only thing on their mind and taking all lengths to get that blue ribbon(like drugging yo horse, not feeding him, and other examples yous guys typed) then I say they souldn't ride at all.

I never thought people did these things to horses. Geeze.....would you do this to yourself or your family/Friends?

LMH
Mar. 13, 2001, 05:52 PM
Thank goodness someone is finally bringing all of this to light.

My opinion: The level of pure abuse on the circuit is repulsive. Not everyone mind you-but an end of the day cocktail is so common that no one even hides it anymore.

I have VERY strong opinions about ACTH-wake up people-this will eventually do a ton of damage to your horses-the fallout is only beginning.

Try making good horses first and foremost-if you raise and expose them properly without a time frame then you won't have troubles when they do make it to the show-no one seems to want to do that anymore.

I believe 100% in ZERO tolerance-until certain people in this industry grow a conscience the rules have to be more black and white.

Sorry-you hit a nerve on this one.

By the way-hello everyone-I am relatively new here-what a way to jump in with a bang.

Life is too short to dance with ugly men

fernie fox
Mar. 13, 2001, 06:45 PM
Zero tollerance is the only way to stop people 'bending'the rules.

Good start resonator. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fernie fox
Mar. 14, 2001, 08:54 AM
Well,I have just read this whole thread.
In 1970 I had a horrible experience with,owners/vets of horses that I was training,at that time I was young and was not willing to train horses to go on to compete at international levels when so much abuse was involved.[meds.surgical.insurance fraud]

I quit training/selling horses.Of course, my little stand against the above abuses was totally ineffectual.

Which is why I now am totally for ZERO TOLLERANCE.

If the horse is not well for any reason,he should be withdrawn from that competion.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

Flash44
Mar. 14, 2001, 01:17 PM
I remember reading a press release that Alvaretto colicked from the stress of showing and being on the road. So why not give him a break? Giving a supplement to relieve some of the symptoms of stress does not cure the problem, it covers it up.

wtywmn4
Mar. 14, 2001, 01:46 PM
After reading all the posts, just have to throw my 2 cents in. We all make decisions. This being one of them, and one of the most important ones we can for our horses. If you feel strongly and DO NOT want your horse medicated, then say so to your trainer. If this person won't abide by your requests, then find someone else. There are trainers who do believe in non use.

Bumpkin
Jan. 13, 2003, 06:41 AM
Bumpkining up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I agree with Wtywmn, find a trainer who will be honest with you and work with you.
"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 13, 2003, 08:36 AM
oh, my.....once again, a really scary peek at our industry.

For the record, I have a major problem with drugging a horse for what I call "convenience." That said...

First, know that you can get most of the popular drugs cheaply and WITHOUT a vet's script or intervention very easily. Heck, I just recently found out about one supplier -- dex, ace, ketofen, a whole bar's worth of drugs and all you do is sign a release form and send in your money. So clearly, vet access is NOT the issue.

Next, how to stop this. As a PR pro, there is a very real danger in making a public media outcry on this issue -- that danger is PETA and PETA-type responses along the lines of "ban the shows if they're gonna abuse the horses." And it may indeed be warranted and necessary, but the people who AREN't tainted need to be aware of it. And then, what about the potential voices of the tens of thousands of people who don't show rated, but who also don't want horses drugged?

That said, I don't know if we CAN work through the USAE system as it currently stands. From what I'm reading and how it sounds to me, that's where the core group dedicated to protecting their "right" to drug horses way past truly necessary therapeutic doses is strongest. So....what can we do, and how can we do it?

War Admiral
Jan. 13, 2003, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As a PR pro, there is a very real danger in making a public media outcry on this issue -- that danger is PETA and PETA-type responses along the lines of "ban the shows if they're gonna abuse the horses." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I kinda disagree, Hopeful. I think a major public outcry is the ONLY thing that will help, and we will just have to deal with the consequences.

I was thinking about this the other day - realistically, the racing industry has "the rep" so they are very closely watched and do a pretty good job of self-regulating - I would go so far as to say that nowadays it is probably much cleaner than the A Circuit is. I don't think anything short of a *huge* hue and cry will change things, unfortunately.

Good bump, Bumpkin - this should be bumped annually!

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

DMK
Jan. 13, 2003, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
First, know that you can get most of the popular drugs cheaply and WITHOUT a vet's script or intervention very easily. Heck, I just recently found out about one supplier -- dex, ace, ketofen, a whole bar's worth of drugs and all you do is sign a release form and send in your money. So clearly, vet access is NOT the issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they are based in this country, I'm sure the FDA wouldn't mind a call. It's illegal any way you cut it. I mean what if they were dispensing ketamine that way?

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

findeight
Jan. 13, 2003, 09:34 AM
One thing that would help is if they sent the testers to more shows. In the eight years since I started back showing I have had mine tested twice. They were at one other show where I wasn't selected. The mere threat of the lab techs showing up is a pretty good deterent that would be better if they showed up more often.
It needs to be lab techs too, not the show vet. Just like any other drug test there needs to be a good chain of custody established and followed that requires somebody whose sole job is getting the sample and signatures and seeing to it they are properly split and packed for shipment.

Felt sorry for the tech who sat in front of my mare's stall for three hours,cup in hand at a winter show-heated but not that comfortable-we ended up getting her coffee twice. They finally gave up and took the blood.

There is no money or support for it but perhaps more states could be like California where they have been independently testing for 30 years.

The fed sure needs to give more then the slap on the wrist they do now even for second and third violations.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

[This message was edited by findeight on Jan. 13, 2003 at 07:00 PM.]

WorryWart
Jan. 13, 2003, 10:12 AM
"As I posted on another thread, the belief that Azium has a calmative (tranquilizing) affect is a PERCEPTION and is not a proven clinical effect AFAIK." I would like to add my "two cent's worth" in this regard in that last summer my thin-skinned thoroughbred was put on Azium for a couple of weeks to help combat hives and the resultant almost constant skin-twitching. Unfortunately for us the Azium did not help with the bumps or the 'twitching' and most certainly did not make my hunter any calmer whatsoever so I certainly support the statement that Azium has not been clinically proven to have a calming affect. Needless-to-say after the 2 week trial, my horse came off Azium, a change in hay and medicated shampoos helped with the hives.

Tackpud
Jan. 13, 2003, 10:41 AM
Findeight - I have to agree - more testers and send them to every show. I understand it is a major expense, but isn't that what we pay the Drugs/Medications fee for? I have had many horses tested at lots of different shows and totally support the system.

Lucassb
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That said, I don't know if we CAN work through the USAE system as it currently stands. From what I'm reading and how it sounds to me, that's where the core group dedicated to protecting their "right" to drug horses way past truly necessary therapeutic doses is strongest. So....what can we do, and how can we do it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with this. The USAE's drugs and meds rules have been established and refined over a long period of time, and can be enforced through a proven process - tested in the courts.

While it may not be perfect (and there will ALWAYS be cheats, I suppose) those rules are a significant safeguard for our horses, and can (should) be continually enhanced.

The rule change/enhancement process is sometimes slow. There is considerable concern at the Fed about Dex in particular, which is why there is a proposal to identify and track its use. Change is slow, especially when there are people who feel it will negatively affect their cash flow. But members can help move those processes along! Lend your support to those committees, get involved in the organization... it isn't going to happen any faster without SUPPORT from more that just the same old core of people, as dedicated as they may be.

And, let's remember that any member can call a steward or protest behavior that they think is in violation of the rules. Scary? Yes, many people look the other way rather than "make a fuss" for fear of retribution. THAT is something that can, and should, be addressed. But first, more people have to have the courage of their convictions, and be willing to get involved.

There is no question that there are owners, trainers and riders who would rather take the path of least resistance, and who may win in the short term. More drug testing, as I believe Findeight proposed, may make that path a bit less attractive to take and so reduce the abuses that do occur. I am all for that. But - and here is the key - that will COST MONEY. As in, a higher drug fee on your entries, or higher membership fee to the organization to support additional infrastructure/higher costs and so forth.

Are you willing to pay it? I am, but on these very boards there have been plenty of discussions over the fees that are already charged. MANY think those fees are already too high. "And what do we get for those dollars!?" they ask. Well... for one thing, you get this drugs and meds program. It is far from free.

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

War Admiral
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:24 AM
Hmmmm, well, I could certainly be an advocate of LESS of my dues going to high-powered lawyers in the NGB dispute and MORE being devoted to what USAE was originally supposed to be doing - monitoring the sport...

Ghazzu
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lizviola:
I was thinking about this the other day - realistically, the racing industry has "the rep" so they are very closely watched and do a pretty good job of self-regulating - I would go so far as to say that nowadays it is probably much cleaner than the A Circuit is. I don't think anything short of a *huge* hue and cry will change things, unfortunately.

Good bump, Bumpkin - this should be bumped annually!

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd hazard a guess you're right, there. A TB trainer cannot even have needles and syringes in his possession on the backstretch, much less administer drugs with them.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Ghazzu
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
If they are based in this country, I'm sure the FDA wouldn't mind a call. It's illegal any way you cut it. I mean what if they were dispensing ketamine that way?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well the Feds seem to care bugger all about illegal veterinary drug distribution in general, unless food animals are involved (viz all those obnoxious TV "get your stuff delivered with no visit to the vet" pharmacies, which have been proven over and again to be violating numerous laws), but ketamine is now a scheduled drug, which means you can't get it without a DEA permit.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Bumpkin
Jan. 13, 2003, 11:45 AM
How do you become a tester?
Maybe more concerned people should volunteer at a min wage or just volunteer to do it?
I would be game just to help out the horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

Ghazzu
Jan. 13, 2003, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
How do you become a tester?
Maybe more concerned people should volunteer at a min wage or just volunteer to do it?
I would be game just to help out the horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm going to hazard a guess that the first requitement is that you have no vested interest in horses at the show. So I don't think volunteers would really work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I believe you need to have a veterinary license.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

DMK
Jan. 13, 2003, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Well the Feds seem to care bugger all about illegal veterinary drug distribution in general, unless food animals are involved (viz all those obnoxious TV "get your stuff delivered with no visit to the vet" pharmacies, which have been proven over and again to be violating numerous laws), but ketamine is now a scheduled drug, which means you can't get it without a DEA permit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... learn something new everyday - I just assumed that you were required to mail in a scrip, same as any other mail order pharmacy.

As for the TB industry and testing, it is not without its problems, especially as it relates to ELISA sensitivity, but they seem to be at least addressing the issue. But the reason why the TB industry testing seems to work so much better is if you win, place or show, YOU GET TESTED! It's quite simple. If your horse is good enough to get you some prize money, then he better pass the test. And really, how many people drug a horse without the intention of bettering their results?

In my opinion, the USAEq would do well to adopt this system or some variation thereof. No personalities, no wondering if you were discriminated against because the "random" process picks you 6 times at one horse show, nothing but the plain simple truth that if you are good enough to win, you are good enough to be tested.

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

findeight
Jan. 13, 2003, 04:24 PM
Hell's bells I'll pay 5 bucks more a show to stop some of this crap. Sure beats paying the lawyers as another has already pointed out.

Medication free? IMHO No.But established levels that leave no doubt the substance was used for the good of the horse and not to enhance performance.

On the other hand I have seen what happens when some try to beat the testers with vitamins that mask or disgusting things like bleeding or dehydration that will never test.

Answers??????? Tough one.

Stop rewarding the machine like trip. Stop looking the other way when one staggers across the access road on the way to the ring because it's lame in all four. Stop rewarding the obviously altered. These remarks cut accross the board from H/J to Arab to AQHA-you can see this stuff, stop pinning it. I don't have a clue about Dressage but why would they be different? This was the group that threw out a trainer for surgically altering a neck so no group among us stands in the clear.

The fact there will always be some that will get ultra sophisticated about fooling the system and pull it off should not deter us from adopting a no tolerence attitude to drug or physical abuse to enhance performance. 90% of the abusers are known and 90% of the time even a casual observer can tell something is off with this horse. We need to change our whole attitude as a group.

And again, I am not denying a competition animal the chance to take the equivalent of an aspirin but wonder why so many hide behind that excuse while drugging, bleeding or dehydrating their animals to get them "ready".

Mine? Bute, but rarely at home or at local shows. She must live for a week in a tent on asphalt at the bigger shows. Also think it a good choice after a particularly hard day as after clinic. But only within established guidlines.
But then I was taught to really ride from the get go and taught what good training was........

As I said, this requires a change in attitude.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Ghazzu
Jan. 13, 2003, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:


Hmmm... learn something new everyday - I just assumed that you were required to mail in a scrip, same as any other mail order pharmacy.

As for the TB industry and testing, it is not without its problems, especially as it relates to ELISA sensitivity, but they seem to be at least addressing the issue. But the reason why the TB industry testing seems to work so much better is if you win, place or show, YOU GET TESTED! It's quite simple. If your horse is good enough to get you some prize money, then he better pass the test. And really, how many people drug a horse without the intention of bettering their results?

In my opinion, the USAEq would do well to adopt this system or some variation thereof. No personalities, no wondering if you were discriminated against because the "random" process picks you 6 times at one horse show, nothing but the plain simple truth that if you are good enough to win, you are good enough to be tested.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what you'd think--but what these guys do when someone calls and wants, say thyroid medication for their dog, is ask the DVM's info. they then fax a request for a scrip to the DVM. Now, Mrs. Smith hasn't had Fluffy's levels checked for 2 years, so Dr. Jones refuses to fill the script.

Then some or all of the following happen--the "pharmacy" gets a tame in house DVM to ok it, even though they've never laid eyes on Fluffy, or, indeed, seen the bloodwork, they go ahead and fill it without even getting a faked ok, *and* they then fax or mail Mrs. Smith paperwork on how to report her unscrupulpous money--grubbing DVM to the state board of registration for failing to write a script!


Back on topic, I can see plusses and minuses to the test the winners scenario--there are a lot of folks who'd drug a horse just to get it out to see the sights.
Maybe some combination of all the winners and a few random horses would be the ticket.

(I know IAHA contracts to have all the winners tested at Arabian Nationals--and there are stillpeople who take the risk--go figure...)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

*spring*
Jan. 13, 2003, 05:31 PM
Found a couple of interesting websites about dex.
http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/monographs/dexamethasone2.asp

For those that don't feel like reading the entire article, some facts form it:

"Chronic or inappropriate use of corticosteroids including dexamethasone can cause life threatening hormonal and metabolic changes."

"Corticosteroids suppress immune response. Animals receiving systemic corticosteroids may be more susceptible to bacterial or viral infections. Systemic corticosteroids can mask signs of infection, such as an elevated temperature."

" Polyuria, polydipsia, and muscle wasting can be seen with prolonged corticosteroid use."

" Corticosteroids can cause or worsen gastric ulcers. "

and
"The risk of GI ulcers may be increased if corticosteroids and other drugs prone to causing ulcers such as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs are given at the same time."

I had no idea the use of drugs for 'performance purposes' was this widespread. I could never consider.. really an eye opening topic!

and something else interesting..
http://www.piwet.pulawy.pl/Bulletin/45-2/Danek.doc
-
The effects of dex on stallion's semen.

- To Ride A Horse Is To Borrow Freedom -

barnie
Jan. 13, 2003, 07:25 PM
As someone involved in several aspects of this business, I want to say this is a tough subject on all fronts! I DO NOT believe in medicating horses to show them past a theraputic level. Which means to me, anything past what a vet tells me is safe. And that is always w/in legal show levels(with my vet). But as has been posted in multiple topics throughout this BB, teaching good horsemanship is a hard and thankless job. At the "AA" level, you are ALWAYS swimming against the tide. I think this is a terrible statement on our industry, but sadly true.When you are trying to be competitive in that venue, you are fighting against those that will over-medicate to win. I have people coming to me wanting to know what everyone else is "using" so they can "level" the playing field; and I have to give lectures about how Dex or whatever the drug dejour is, can harm their horses and why they shouldn't use it....made much harder in the face of the fact soooo many other "nice" people are using it with obvious success and not obvious side-effects. My customers are not "bad" people...they just want to have a chance at success. People can rant and rave about how it should be...no drugs...but this is how it is...and it is a hard job dealing w/it every weekend. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 12:41 AM
I just want to say that I've had a conversation with my vet about azium (talked about in the first few posts).

It is rather hard to founder a horse if you give it in the therepeutic dose. It is a great steroid to releave pain. It stays in the system for a long time, it peaks about a day or so later.

If you give it in small doses for days at a time, it is the same as giving a horse one large ammount. My horses get 8cc once per week at a horse show. They don't get it for more than two weeks. THAT is a VERY conservative dose. I could prob double that with no adverse reactions.

I have heard of people giving a horse 4cc right before they go in the ring for 4 days during a show. I doubt it does anything to make the horse quiet other than releave pain, and thus making the horse happy and more quiet (personal opinion not based on fact though). If I understand this right, the people that give 4cc for 4 days are putting the same ammount of dex in the horses system as someone who gives 16cc in one lump dose.

I know tons of horses who get dex at shows and I know no horses that have foundered from dex. I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse. It makes the horse more comfortable. No horse is 100% sound. Dex won't make a crippled horse sound. It makes a serviceably sound horse (which is like almost every horse that doesnt fit into the crippled catagory) more comfortable at shows. It could do its task without, but with it performs better and is generally happy.

Dex has more therepeutic reasons for use other than hives. On a D & M report you can claim use of dex for its thereputic properties as an anti inflamitory- that is its main purpose.


I have a question. What is more ethical, allowing a small ammount of tranquilizer (ace.. like 1/2cc for a regular sized horse) to make the horses quiet, or lunging for hours on end and having to medicate as a result? Just a question. I'd be interested in everyone's opinion.

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

[This message was edited by Darkerhorse on Jan. 14, 2003 at 11:12 AM.]

barnie
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:46 AM
I don't know about ethical...but the BIG problem is that we accept that it must be one or the other. Our business of showing horses needs some major changes. I don't know the ultimate answer, but it has been discussed all over this BB in many incarnations.And as I said earlier, it is hard to compete against the "drug" mentality. What if, Darkerhorse, we didn't have to show horses that weren't sound? Or if our horses weren't suited to being hunters(read not quiet enough)we found them other careers? It used to be that it was HARD to find the winner...now it's just hard to find the right management(read drug combination).Different vets will give you different opinions...just like trainers, but be honest...it would be bad for you to be on steriods they way you use them on your horse. I don't care how anyone rationalizes it...Dex is a seriuos and potentially dangerous drug. You know lots of people drink and smoke with no ill effects, but that doesn't change the fact that both of those can kill you.

Sing Mia Song
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:02 AM
&lt;&lt;I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse&gt;&gt;

Darkerhorse, I'm a licensed veterinary technician, and I can tell you that you're absolutely, flat-out mistaken with this comment.

Look down the road. You're suppressing your horse's adrenal gland and immune system. Sure, you can go to show after show this year, but what about next year? Or the one after that?

I've seen the effects of long-term corticosteriod use. It ain't pretty.

b328
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:23 AM
Sing Mia Song, is dex the horses equivalent of using prednisone to control hives or allergic reactions in humans? If yes, then I am sure that it is not harmless to use it continuously for horses. I have had to use prednisone off and on for the past year for chronic hives related to allergies, and it is not healthy for humans, so I would be surprised if it is okay for horses.

Ghazzu
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
&lt;&lt;I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse&gt;&gt;

Darkerhorse, I'm a licensed veterinary technician, and I can tell you that you're absolutely, flat-out mistaken with this comment.

Look down the road. You're suppressing your horse's adrenal gland and immune system. Sure, you can go to show after show this year, but what about next year? Or the one after that?

I've seen the effects of long-term corticosteriod use. It ain't pretty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I haven't got time to go into Darkerhorse's misinformation regarding dexamethasone point by point right now, but you're correct, he's very wrong.
He's also wrong in his assertion that corticosteroid use need not be reported on the D&M form, as evidenced by this quote from the USAE website:

"THE USE OF A CORTICOSTEROID MUST BE REPORTED

USA Equestrian Rules permit the use of corticosteroids only for a therapeutic purpose. The rules require the filing of a medication report form in connection with the use of any corticosteroid administered by any route during the seven days prior to the animal competing. This includes intravenous, intramuscular, subcutaneous, intra-articular, inhalant, oral and topical administrations. The rules do not require the animal to be withdrawn from competition after the administration of a corticosteroid"

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
&lt;&lt;I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse&gt;&gt;

Darkerhorse, I'm a licensed veterinary technician, and I can tell you that you're absolutely, flat-out mistaken with this comment.

Look down the road. You're suppressing your horse's adrenal gland and immune system. Sure, you can go to show after show this year, but what about next year? Or the one after that?

I've seen the effects of long-term corticosteriod use. It ain't pretty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


8 years hasn't effected on of my horses. A school horse we have is 30. It used to do horse shows 24 years ago until when it was 25 or so. It got dex at every one.... Its sound.. And alive at 30. I havem proof and I won't change my mind until shown otherwise.

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I haven't got time to go into Darkerhorse's misinformation regarding dexamethasone point by point right now, but you're correct, he's very wrong...

USA Equestrian Rules permit the use of corticosteroids only for a therapeutic purpose. The rules require the filing of a medication report form in connection with the use of any corticosteroid administered by any route during the seven days prior to the animal competing. This includes intravenous, intramuscular, subcutaneous, intra-articular, inhalant, oral and topical administrations. The rules do not require the animal to be withdrawn from competition after the administration of a corticosteroid"

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh, Yea, my post made it look like I didn't mean what I meant. LOL. Someone said you had to write hives down on the D & M report, because it was the only therepeutic reason. I tried to say that you have to put down a therepeutic reason for dex. Its anti inflamitory properties ARE a therepeutic reason. .... Not just 'hives.' To make a horse quiet is not a therepeutic reason. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe some combination of all the winners and a few random horses would be the ticket. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I think the track officials have the right to test anyone else if they deem the horse suspicious, but don't quote me on that.

We had a conversation on the BB a few years ago, and came up with the idea of the tester getting a list of class winners to test prior to the show, plus discretion to test others if warranted. We figured it would be unreasonable and costly to test every class winner, but certain division winners could be tested, as well as certain class winners (such as the GP winner). And I bet some will still be stupid enough to try something, but I think you level the playing field a LOT more if you eliminate winners who test positive, rather than just another competitor.

Darkerhorse - give your horse 8cc of dex if you must (although at a 4mg concentration, I think 5 cc is considered the correct therapeutic dosage). Just do yourself a favor and don't kid yourself about its effects. Can we say "Immune Compromised Animal"?

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
I don't know about ethical...but the BIG problem is that we accept that it must be one or the other. Our business of showing horses needs some major changes. I don't know the ultimate answer, but it has been discussed all over this BB in many incarnations.And as I said earlier, it is hard to compete against the "drug" mentality. What if, Darkerhorse, we didn't have to show horses that weren't sound? Or if our horses weren't suited to being hunters(read not quiet enough)we found them other careers? It used to be that it was HARD to find the winner...now it's just hard to find the right management(read drug combination).Different vets will give you different opinions...just like trainers, but be honest...it would be bad for you to be on steriods they way you use them on your horse. I don't care how anyone rationalizes it...Dex is a seriuos and potentially dangerous drug. You know lots of people drink and smoke with no ill effects, but that doesn't change the fact that both of those can kill you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses arent 'suited' to jump though. I really think it would be hard to get a horse broke enough to be going around well in bigger divisions and have it be 100% sound every single time, yaknow? Of course steroids aren't good, but once a week for two weeks max hasn't given my horses any problems.

If you took the horse show medication away it would drive the horses price very high or judges would have to allow unsound horses to show. Why should older horses hurt when it is just a simple matter of a bute pill? They may not limp, but you can tell when they are just a bit creaky.. NOT in the sense of not ride creaky, just creaky...

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:05 AM
http://users.cg.yu/ukmk/azium.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Modification of the basic corticoid structure as achieved in AZIUM offers enhanced anti-inflammatory effect compared to older corticosteroids. The dosage of AZIUM required is markedly lower than that of prednisone and prednisolone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AZIUM Solution may also be used as supportive therapy in inflammatory conditions, such as arthritic conditions, snake bite, acute mastitis, shipping fever, pneumonia, laminitis, and retained placenta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do they give it to sick horses with a weak immune system?

OH, and DMK, you are wrong about 5cc... the site is talking about 2mg though, so it would be translated as half to be compared to what you said...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DOSAGE & ADMINISTRATION

Depends on severity of the condition but as a guideline, the dosage for different species are indicated below:

Cattle, Buffalo and Horse : 4-20 mg daily by I/M or slow I/V/ route
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therefore 10cc is the max recommended dose... Of 4mg/ml solution.

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

caffeinated
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
8 years hasn't effected on of my horses. A school horse we have is 30. It used to do horse shows 24 years ago until when it was 25 or so. It got dex at every one.... Its sound.. And alive at 30. I havem proof and I won't change my mind until shown otherwise.

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a classic flaw of reasoning. "my experience is good, therefore it can't possibly be bad"

Basing an opinion ONLY from personal experience and not real, solid, study and data, doesn't count for much. Just because you see horses that are fine, does not mean that the drug is harmless.

Someone on another board posted this link:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quacksell.html

I thought it was applicable because it talks about how people will buy anything based on personal testimonials or experience, even when any and all scientific evidence points to the product in question being at best useless and at worst harmful.

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**

Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Posted by Darkerhorse
Whoever said that dex must be reported for hives on a D & M report is wrong. It has thereputic properties as an anti inflamitory- that is its main purpose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You might want to check Art. 410, section f, and Art. 411. They specifically reference Dex and the provisions under which a horse can compete after being provided with a monitored substance...

"Any substance (or metabolite or analogue thereof), the therapeutic use of which is permitted by this rule without the requirement to withdraw the horse/pony from competition after the administration of the substance, and having the requirements that its administration must be properly and timely documented and reported in writing,and in regard to which all of the above requirements of this section were not met prior to competition (See Art. 411.2) e.g. any corticosteroid, including but not limited to DEXAMETHASONE.EC 2/12/02 effective 5/1/02

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
How many CC do you give? 5 and 5 day after day? It has a cumulative effect. If I said 2cc daily, would you still think it sounded like a lot?

I have yet to have a horse founder, get sick, loose hair (lol), anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To get them to the show ring? How does "Zero" sound? I do have a horse with inhalent allergies, that when we show on grass in late summer (think Biltmore) he gets 1.5 ccs the first day he arrives. And yes, I certainly have a first hand familiarity with dex and its uses, and no mishaps to speak of. There was a whole different attitude to it over 10 years ago when a lot more people were ignorant of its side effects. But you should learn as you live, right?

And immune suppression is one of those things that doesn't really compromise your horse until the day he actually needs his immune system. Then it is too late.

As for a recent anecdote about the power of dex... In December my horse came in with a slightly swollen hind leg with a lamenes apparently more due to edema than any other cause. There was no noticeable cut and the skin was that hot puffy look it has when they are battling scratches. Given that it had a) just rained and he was in mud, b) just been body clipped and c) battled this problem all summer long, I decided it was probably scratches. So I gave the 1370 pound animal 2 cc of dex plus 2 gr. bute. The next morning the swelling was reduced, but still there, meaning it was not scratches, since the dex would have eliminated it. He was sounder and more comfortable, but I kept him in all day because I was worried that it might have been a soft tissue injury (mud, hills, etc.), and by that night he was very comfortable and sound lending creedence to that idea.

Fast forward to the next morning. Swollen, three legged and has not moved from one spot in a few hours (but he is a pansy about his hind legs). It's obviously an infection and it is even more obvious that it has been suppressed an additional 24 hours by dex, and a very small dose of dex at that. Now would I have given him dex if I had seen a wound? Hell no! But the point is that there was no wound site (I felt better when the vet couldn't find one either, and we spent some time looking.) But how bad would it have been if he had been on a higher dose of dex? Or several small doses? Or what if the infection was in the joint capsule? None would have been good for the long term performance prospects of this horse. As it was, I got off with bedding extra deep to support his feet in case of potential founder (not because of the dex, but because he was standing on one hind leg), and about 3X the antibiotics the infection originally warranted.

And it isn't like I was blind to the effects of dex, but I was very impressed at the strength and duration of such a small dose.

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> AZIUM Solution may also be used as supportive therapy in inflammatory conditions, such as arthritic conditions, snake bite, acute mastitis, shipping fever, pneumonia, laminitis, and retained placenta

Why do they give it to sick horses with a weak immune system?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it is recommended to treat inflammation. That is not at all the same thing as a compromised immune system. We battle infections all the time. Those of us with healthy immune systems can successfully battle them. For those of us without healthy immune systems, we tend to lose the battle even with the help of drugs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OH, and DMK, you are wrong about 5cc... the site is talking about 2mg though, so it would be translated as half to be compared to what you said...


DOSAGE & ADMINISTRATION

Depends on severity of the condition but as a guideline, the dosage for different species are indicated below:

Cattle, Buffalo and Horse : 4-20 mg daily by I/M or slow I/V/ route


Therefore 10cc is the max recommended dose... Of 4mg/ml solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, I don't want to put to fine a point on it, but if the maximum recommended amount of azium a day is 20 mg, you don't actually have to be a math major to figure out if you want to deliver 20 mgs of a substance at 4mg concentration, that "5" would be your multiplier...

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> _AZIUM Solution may also be used as supportive therapy in inflammatory conditions, such as arthritic conditions, snake bite, acute mastitis, shipping fever, pneumonia, laminitis, and retained placenta_

Why do they give it to sick horses with a weak immune system?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it is recommended to treat inflammation. That is not at all the same thing as a compromised immune system. We battle infections all the time. Those of us with healthy immune systems can successfully battle them. For those of us without healthy immune systems, we tend to lose the battle even with the help of drugs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OH, and DMK, you are wrong about 5cc... the site is talking about 2mg though, so it would be translated as half to be compared to what you said...


_DOSAGE & ADMINISTRATION

Depends on severity of the condition but as a guideline, the dosage for different species are indicated below:

Cattle, Buffalo and Horse : 4-20 mg daily by I/M or slow I/V/ route_


Therefore 10cc is the max recommended dose... Of 4mg/ml solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, I don't want to put to fine a point on it, but if the maximum recommended amount of azium a day is 20 mg, you don't actually have to be a math major to figure out if you want to deliver 20 mgs of a substance at 4mg concentration, that "5" would be your multiplier...

_"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL, no, That wasn't a finer point, that was the most important part of my post which was wrong. Thanks for pointing it out.

---
Tell me, Sister Morphine, when are you comming round' again...

Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have a question. What is more ethical, allowing a small ammount of tranquilizer (ace.. like 1/2cc for a regular sized horse) to make the horses quiet, or lunging for hours on end and having to medicate as a result? Just a question. I'd be interested in everyone's opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NEITHER is ethical, in my opinion. Drugging a horse to make it "quiet" is cheating, plain and simple. Longeing to the point of doing damage (ie, requiring medication), while legal, is also unethical.

How about riding and schooling those horses so they are obedient in the ring without having to resort to behavior like this?

I am not opposed to letting a horse that is a bit fresh or excited at a show get the bucks out on the longe line for a few minutes. Nor am I opposed to letting that older campaigner work out a bit of stiffness on a longeline in the absence of his regular turnout. I've done both and have never had to medicate as a result. But, like most practices, there is the capacity for abuse - and when it is doing damage, that is unethical.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:38 AM
It's just a bitch when that happens, isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
How about riding and schooling those horses so they are obedient in the ring without having to resort to behavior like this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better yet, how about addressing the judging standards that require that healthy, fit athletes behave like automatons? Nothing like a little root cause analysis!

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
[QUOTE]
How about riding and schooling those horses so they are obedient in the ring without having to resort to behavior like this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, I'd just drug a school horse- safety first!!!

Kidding kidding please..

But, ALL lunging does damage. Horses aren't meant to run around in a small circle. They aren't meant to trot around. HELL Everytime you ride a horse you do some minute ammount of damage that will effect it later in life I'd imagine.


Um, nevermind, I thought you said school horses. I just edited and added this. Geeze, I wish my brother hadn't had a psychotic breakdown this morning and I hadn't gotten woken up from my 2 hours of sleep.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

paint hunter
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:26 AM
In response to an earlier screen regarding becoming a drug tester...

USAEq requires a veterinary license plus membership in the AVMA (American Veterinary Medicial Association). The form also asks if the veterinary applicant is a member of AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners). The form doesn't indicate that the vet be licensed in the state in which he or she is testing. Other association rules may be different. I did some drug testing last summer for a racing association and I was required to have my license in that state (not a problem since that was the state in which I was living). And yes, when doing the drug testing, it was my choice as to the horses I decided to pull out and test. At the third meet, I pulled out alot of the second place horses and not necessarily only the winners. (In one case, the first place horse had been undefeated all season and had been tested clean every time). Most owners were very gracious about having their horses tested but there were a few that grumbled (wonder why?).

NinaL aka Chrissy
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AZIUM Solution may also be used as supportive therapy in inflammatory conditions, such as arthritic conditions, snake bite, acute mastitis, shipping fever, pneumonia, laminitis, and retained placenta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do they give it to sick horses with a weak immune system? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In medical treatmeat, as in life, sometimes you gotta take the bad with the good.

Look at the instances that are mentioned: some life-threatening and some where you are looking to preserve the future soundness or productivity of the animal.

Now, regardless of how one may feel when walking through the in-gate, I don't think that many of us feel that riding in a show is life or death http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Well, maybe some do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

After reading the Ritalin thread I am feeling a touch nauseous. Maybe it is time to rachet up the penalties for the use of specific substances (lifelong suspensions sound about right). Group it all under the "off-label" category.

Everybody decries the LTD hunter, dead on his feet, and screams for changes in judging standards. I, for one, refuse to lay all the blame at the feet of the judges. It had to start somewhere and if the trainers were not out there creating the dead-on-its-feet hunter than the judges would not have one to pin.

How well I recall the very famous older A/O hunter who arrived at Devon on breeding day and was ridden and lunged non-stop until the following day when he would make his appearance at the in-gate with the Calm and Cool dripping from his mouth http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Somtimes I wonder why showing no longer appeals to me very much. Then I read these types of threads.

Nina

M. O'Connor
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:39 AM
&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse&gt;&gt;

This &lt;&lt;could&gt;&gt; be simply a matter of horsemanship...and was it not D'Horse who recently questioned whether a good portion of that fine art is simply "worthless crap with no reason?"

DH, are you maybe lumping the part about medications in the above category? Or would meds be a way around having to master the pointless stuff?

THE FOLLOWING IS AN ANECDOTE, AND NOT OFFERED AS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OF THE POSSIBLE HARM OR LACK THEREOF THAT MAY BEFALL AN EQUINE WHO RECEIVES "THERAPUTIC" DOSES OF AZIUM:

But, I offer it, nonetheless...

We are fortunate to have a very cute, fiesty little pony mare in our barn...who, before we received her on loan (may it never end, we LOFF her!) was prone to "hot" spots, in the summer, similar to the ones dogs get when they scratch fleas too much in the heat...A decade ago, which is when I met her, but several years before we got her as ours, the normal thing to do was to give her Azium as a remedy...this DID clear up the hot spots. She was...ahem, also very prone to foundering; not TOO surprising, as she was a small, very chubby pony...funny though, how the founder didn't fit the pony pattern of happening on the spring grass, but would occur later in the summer when the grass was drier...and oh what a good thing it was that the Azium cleared up her sores so that they didn't get sandy in her DIRT paddock...

Well, it is now 12+ years later; we have had her for 8 years. She has been on a strict worming schedule since we got her, has been on Strongid daily wormer since it was invented, is clipped all summer long, hasn't had sores the whole time we've had her, and lo and behold, has not foundered either in the 8 years we've had her, despite being on grass all summer...did I mention that we haven't given her Azium at all?

MCL

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;I don't think that dex causes detriment to the horse&gt;&gt;

This &lt;&lt;could&gt;&gt; be simply a matter of horsemanship...and was it not D'Horse who recently questioned whether a good portion of that fine art is simply "worthless crap with no reason?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How mature. I was asking a quesiton. If we don't ask we don't learn. Some proved why we do things to me in that thread. How is that wrong? Eh, nevermind, it is pointless to explain to people who will judge me on questions I bring up. Have I ever said I don't do or do the things I brought up in that thread? No...


And about your pony, well if it founders don't give it to the horse. Why is it bad if my horses haven't had any visible health problems from getting low doses of azium at shows (I am pretty sure we must be giving the 2 mg/ml at 8cc, which is a low dose).

We have a school horse that looses all of its hair in the summer. It gets 1 1/2 dex pills every other day. It has been on this program for the last 4 or 5 years. It hasnt foundered or been sick ever (except the time it got bitten by a brown recluse and its neck like.. absessed and was SO nasty) and doesn't lose its hair anymore.

Please, tell me HOW it is a matter of 'bad horsemanship' if none of my horses have EVER had visible health problem from dex...

Please don't attack me again in such an immature way, also. Really, I never meant to make people think I acatually never polowrap/boot my horses legs or cool it off. I also groom them. Of course they are broke on the flat and bend at the pole. I brought up points in that thread because I didn't understand WHY it mattered. I still don't understand fully for some of those questions.... But YOU, a judge and trainer, could have replied and tried to explain more clearly than some of the people who didn't help me understand.
But you didn't. That's fine, but don't use the fact that I asked thought provoking questions against me.
You should know medication is a beneficial area to many horses. How can you shortcut training with the legal drugs AHSA allows? Last time I checked you coudn't. Its not like you can 'train' a horse not age and get sore in some spots slightly. You can't train a horse not to get sore from stalls that are placed on concrete...

So, uh yea.

But good for you for making your pony better and not have to use dex. Well done. If things had been different and your pony had no problems with foundering and dex fixed the problem too, then well done also.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Its not like you can 'train' a horse not age and get sore in some spots slightly. You can't train a horse not to get sore from stalls that are placed on concrete... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly, you can't train them not to age. But you certainly CAN train them in a way that builds their bodies up and makes them able to do their work without getting SORE. And then you can manage their workload so that they don't overdo - a properly managed horse should not get sore as a matter of course.

Of course that may mean the rider doesn't get to show as much as they would like, or move up as fast as they would like, or whatever. But that is within the control of the rider/owner, and those that put the welfare of the horse first are the ones we call HORSEMEN.

And, as a matter of fact, you can BED stalls properly, whether based on concrete or not, to keep them from getting sore. That is horsemanship, too.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

caffeinated
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Of course they are broke on the flat and bend at the pole. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be "poll," dear

[/nitpick]

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Its not like you can 'train' a horse not age and get sore in some spots slightly. You can't train a horse not to get sore from stalls that are placed on concrete... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly, you can't train them not to age. But you certainly CAN train them in a way that builds their bodies up and makes them able to do their work without getting SORE. And then you can manage their workload so that they don't overdo - a properly managed horse should not get sore as a matter of course.

Of course that may mean the rider doesn't get to show as much as they would like, or move up as fast as they would like, or whatever. But that is within the control of the rider/owner, and those that put the welfare of the horse first are the ones we call HORSEMEN.

And, as a matter of fact, you can BED stalls properly, whether based on concrete or not, to keep them from getting sore. That is horsemanship, too.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree it is important to get a horse as fit as possible. You can't say that medicating a horse that is a bit older, yet still quite sound and useful at shows is cruel. Well, you can, but you must at least see my reasoning. I see yours, I just don't think that using small ammounts of legal medication is wrong.

And about the concrete floors, I think to a degree you can bed, but it still isn't great. When they lie down sometimes they move around the shavings and will get down to the concrete. I dunno, I guess we should all buy matts to put under show stalls.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goldentoes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Of course they are broke on the flat and bend at the pole. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be "poll," dear

[/nitpick]

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been doing things like that alot lately. I wonder if college has killed more brain cells.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

caffeinated
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:52 AM
College does tend to have that effect on people. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**

Ghazzu
Jan. 14, 2003, 12:09 PM
Part of the problem, dear Richard, is that you confuse "horsemanship" with a shopping list of practices which may or may not have merit, depending on circumstances.

Horsemanship lies in the knowing of when to do or not do certain things, and in keeping the ultimate welfare of the horse foremost in the equation.

A story about Albert Harris, one of the founders of the Arabain Horse Club, comes to mind in the context of a definition of horsemanship.

Harris was heavily involved in getting endurance riding started in this country, in cooperation with the Army Remount. He was invited to ride in a competition, but when he got there, he discovered the horse he had been assigned was slightly off, and elected not to start. He was also the one who figured out the cause of the problem. When each of the other contestants offered him their horse for the ride, Harris demurred, telling the rider that the horse was not up to finishing. (This did not make him popular.)

At the conclusion of the ride (which, BTW *none* of the contestants finished, their horses getting eliminated on course), the judges panel announced that under the circumstances, they could only award one prize, and would give the horsemanship prize to Harris, as he was not only the sole competitor who was cognizant that his mount was not up to the competition, but he also realized that none of the rest were, either.

As Harris notes of the horsemanship prize,"...the best horsemanship. This is not necessarily given to the person who wins the ride, but to the one who takes the best care of his mount and uses the best judgement in riding, in other words, by his care of the horse and by good riding gets everything out of his mount possible without injury to the horse.." (emphasis mine)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

barnie
Jan. 14, 2003, 12:40 PM
You know, we have all danced around this drug issue, but in actuality, ANYTHING/EVERYTHING that COULD be mood altering or performance enhancing is illegal. Whether it tests or not...now we can really talk about ethics, Darkerhorse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Posted by Darkerhorse:
I do agree it is important to get a horse as fit as possible. You can't say that medicating a horse that is a bit older, yet still quite sound and useful at shows is cruel. Well, you can, but you must at least see my reasoning. I see yours, I just don't think that using small ammounts of legal medication is wrong.

And about the concrete floors, I think to a degree you can bed, but it still isn't great. When they lie down sometimes they move around the shavings and will get down to the concrete. I dunno, I guess we should all buy matts to put under show stalls. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are lots of people who agree with you about using legal amounts of medication at the horseshows. And I do agree that there are certain things that make sense - I am not opposed to a tab of bute at the end of a long day, for a horse that has worked hard, perhaps on hard ground.

However, I would not put dex in that category, and while there may be therapeutic uses for it, the fact remains that it is OFTEN used to make a horse more quiet, rather than to treat illness or injury. Which is why its usage is being tracked and studied right now,

Using any substance with the intent to change performance contravenes the rules. And that is true whether it is effective or not!

And... as a matter of fact... I *do* bring mats for my horse's stalls at a horseshow. One of mine gets hock rubs at the thought of laying down, so it isn't optional for me.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Part of the problem, dear Richard, is that you confuse "horsemanship" with a shopping list of practices which may or may not have merit, depending on circumstances.

Horsemanship lies in the knowing of when to do or not do certain things, and in keeping the ultimate welfare of the horse foremost in the equation.

A story about Albert Harris, one of the founders of the Arabain Horse Club, comes to mind in the context of a definition of horsemanship.

Harris was heavily involved in getting endurance riding started in this country, in cooperation with the Army Remount. He was invited to ride in a competition, but when he got there, he discovered the horse he had been assigned was slightly off, and elected not to start. He was also the one who figured out the cause of the problem. When each of the other contestants offered him their horse for the ride, Harris demurred, telling the rider that the horse was not up to finishing. (This did not make him popular.)

At the conclusion of the ride (which, BTW *none* of the contestants finished, their horses getting eliminated on course), the judges panel announced that under the circumstances, they could only award one prize, and would give the horsemanship prize to Harris, as he was not only the sole competitor who was cognizant that his mount was not up to the competition, but he also realized that none of the rest were, either.

As Harris notes of the horsemanship prize,"...the best horsemanship. This is not necessarily given to the person who wins the ride, but to the one who takes the best care of his mount and uses the best judgement in riding, in other words, by his care of the horse and by good riding gets everything out of his mount possible _without injury to the horse._." (emphasis mine)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OH MY GOD CAN YOU NOT READ? I AM QUESTIONING THOSE PRACTICES WHICH PEOPLE CLAIM TO BE BENEFICIAL TO HORSES. AKA HORSEMANSHIP.. AKA THINGS THAT ARE BENEFICIAL TO HORSES.

Everyone can have their own horsemanship according to your definition...

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
I would not put dex in that category, and while there may be therapeutic uses for it, the fact remains that it is OFTEN used to make a horse more quiet, rather than to treat illness or injury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My vet and I talked about Dex. He personally thinks it just makes horses feel more comfortable and therefore they go more quietly. My horses don't seem more quiet on dex than normal. If you think something is going to work, chances are the desired effect will happen.. Even if there is no evidence to support why it happens.


And about the stall mats. WOAH that must be heavy. My trainer brings mats for the grooming stalls and oh my god.. I always try to convince her we don't need them because I don't want to have to lug them around, LOL.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

Robby Johnson
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:08 PM
"You can forget your E's and LSD's, there's a whole alphabet of ledger drugs available."

The concept of drugging a horse to make it more quiet is disturbing to me. The challenge we all face, to some degree, is learning to ride a horse when it is hot. To me, that is horsemanship.

I was glad to see 2g of Bute could be used because, at 31, I know after a hard day of competing that I need a few Advil.

Robby

"Yeah well we both know that you don't play fair
I guess you really think that you get me there
Let's be honest perhaps this little ride is too much for even you to bear" Poe

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
"You can forget your E's and LSD's, there's a whole alphabet of ledger drugs available."

The concept of drugging a horse to make it more quiet is disturbing to me. The challenge we all face, to some degree, is learning to ride a horse when it is hot. To me, that is horsemanship.

I was glad to see 2g of Bute could be used because, at 31, I know after a hard day of competing that I need a few Advil.

Robby

_ "Yeah well we both know that you don't play fair
I guess you really think that you get me there
Let's be honest perhaps this little ride is too much for even you to bear"_ Poe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sometimes if my horses have been locked in a stall for a few days do to rain or a hurricane or something I'll give 1/2cc of ace and hack lightly. It makes them not have to be lunged or ridden very hard when they might tie up from not being worked in so long. I don't think thats wrong.

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.'

Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Darkerhorse:
My vet and I talked about Dex. He personally thinks it just makes horses feel more comfortable and therefore they go more quietly. My horses don't seem more quiet on dex than normal. If you think something is going to work, chances are the desired effect will happen.. Even if there is no evidence to support why it happens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am curious. What does your vet say about the immune system suppression?

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Robby Johnson
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:46 PM
Oh yes, the joys of hurricanes. As a native Mobilian, I can identify! We had an ice storm up here two years ago and the horses had to stay up for 10 days! It took two people to lead my mare out.

I think in those situations I would just let them stay out a few days before I rode again, but I understand that sometimes you cannot do that (say if you're at a show, or in a serious program prepping for a competition).

I think when we're in a situation where we're masking behavior with medication, we walk a fine line between modification and drug abuse. If I take a Xanax in a high-anxiety situation, I *do* feel better and I can cope. Don't ask me what 19 x 3 is, though. With that in mind, I would never get on a drugged horse and jump or do anything that requires 100% of the mental faculties.

In your Ace/hacking scenario, I agree that this is probably safe for you, and your horse, so I don't think that's really abusive. But in that same situation, I'd rather put one on a longe tape for 5 minutes, then climb aboard and do a few exercises that require them to use their noggins. Once you give them something to engage their brains, they usually settle right in.

R.

"Yeah well we both know that you don't play fair
I guess you really think that you get me there
Let's be honest perhaps this little ride is too much for even you to bear" Poe

stevie
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:53 PM
I can't believe what I am reading!!!!!! 3 years ago I boarded my horse at a BNT who I thought only had the horses best interst at heart. Turns out, she was Dexing the horse everytime she showed him because he is a spook. I had no idea she was doing this until it was too late....One day when the farrier was there and took off his shoes, he could barely stand. They administered dmz's, to stop the founder, which I guess worked, however, he has never been the same. He is not lame, but he doesn't like to leave long or cannot jump much higher then 3 feet. I am told by the vets that it probably was due to all the dex he was given. The sad thing is, this trainer never let me ride this horse, who I might add is the hack winner and the nicest horse i've ever owned.
Thus I left her, got the horse better and had a lot of success on him. However, my 3'6 horse will never jump 3'6. But, he does just fine at 3 foot.
So to those of you who thing these drugs will not harm your horses, think again.
It makes me sick to hear about all of the drugs trainers are resorting to. How about the calcium shot that if you give it too fast, your horse will have heart failure. I know of some BNT's who use this a lot. How can they do this? No blue ribbon is worth the risk of hurting my horse.
It truely makes me sad to think that people are only in this sport for the ribbons.

M. O'Connor
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:10 PM
&lt;&lt; people who will judge me on questions I bring up. Have I ever said I don't do or do the things I brought up in that thread? No...&gt;&gt;

Richard, sorry, but...when it comes down to it, in a forum such as ours, one DOES tend to make judgements based on what people write...

Sadly for me, no one has ever accused me of going out of my way to be tactful when I have a point to make...

My point is that when to medicate, and when to ask a vet about medicating is pretty much a question of horsemanship.

The pace of today's horse shows and the vested interests that are associated with them (management, trainers, owners, riders, and yes, vets and drug companies) tend to interact in a way that creates an atmosphere that allows for excessive compromise when it comes to making decisions that affect the welfare of the horses.

As a trainer and a judge, I do question whether this is a sensible way to operate. I think that most discussion I've heard on the subject is not at all unbiased; I've heard very few argue for a break in the schedule in order to allow more people to turn out and rest the horses.

We should be able to learn something from the fact that athletic, fit, well-trained horses can't seem to stay sound anymore, and can't seem to be made comfortable without an unholy amount of medications!

MCL

jubilee220
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Part of the problem, dear Richard, is that you confuse "horsemanship" with a shopping list of practices which may or may not have merit, depending on circumstances.

Horsemanship lies in the knowing of when to do or not do certain things, and in keeping the ultimate welfare of the horse foremost in the equation.

A story about Albert Harris, one of the founders of the Arabain Horse Club, comes to mind in the context of a definition of horsemanship.

Harris was heavily involved in getting endurance riding started in this country, in cooperation with the Army Remount. He was invited to ride in a competition, but when he got there, he discovered the horse he had been assigned was slightly off, and elected not to start. He was also the one who figured out the cause of the problem. When each of the other contestants offered him their horse for the ride, Harris demurred, telling the rider that the horse was not up to finishing. (This did not make him popular.)

At the conclusion of the ride (which, BTW *none* of the contestants finished, their horses getting eliminated on course), the judges panel announced that under the circumstances, they could only award one prize, and would give the horsemanship prize to Harris, as he was not only the sole competitor who was cognizant that his mount was not up to the competition, but he also realized that none of the rest were, either.

As Harris notes of the horsemanship prize,"...the best horsemanship. This is not necessarily given to the person who wins the ride, but to the one who takes the best care of his mount and uses the best judgement in riding, in other words, by his care of the horse and by good riding gets everything out of his mount possible _without injury to the horse._." (emphasis mine)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OH MY GOD CAN YOU NOT READ? I AM QUESTIONING THOSE PRACTICES WHICH PEOPLE CLAIM TO BE BENEFICIAL TO HORSES. AKA HORSEMANSHIP.. AKA THINGS THAT ARE BENEFICIAL TO HORSES.

Everyone can have their own horsemanship according to your definition...

---
'You can drop the attitude. You only work in a shop.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are out of line. Such insulting responses and outbursts of directed anger are not allowed on this site.

Why does a given situation, or sign have to be strange and out of time to be of God?

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jubilee220:

You are out of line. Such insulting responses and outbursts of directed anger are not allowed on this site.

Why does a given situation, or sign have to be strange and out of time to be of God? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Anger? No. Never. Just an observation and a question. I am never Angry. I just use caps and huge words to express myself via internet where emotions cannot be expressed.

And god is just a myth. Well maybe not, but I don't see how gof matters in this post.


---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
&lt;&lt; people who will judge me on questions I bring up. Have I ever said I don't do or do the things I brought up in that thread? No...&gt;&gt;

Richard, sorry, but...when it comes down to it, in a forum such as ours, one DOES tend to make judgements based on what people write...

Sadly for me, no one has ever accused me of going out of my way to be tactful when I have a point to make...

My point is that when to medicate, and when to ask a vet about medicating is pretty much a question of horsemanship.

The pace of today's horse shows and the vested interests that are associated with them (management, trainers, owners, riders, and yes, vets and drug companies) tend to interact in a way that creates an atmosphere that allows for excessive compromise when it comes to making decisions that affect the welfare of the horses.

As a trainer and a judge, I do question whether this is a sensible way to operate. I think that most discussion I've heard on the subject is not at all unbiased; I've heard very few argue for a break in the schedule in order to allow more people to turn out and rest the horses.

We should be able to learn something from the fact that athletic, fit, well-trained horses can't seem to stay sound anymore, and can't seem to be made comfortable without an unholy amount of medications!

MCL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks for explaining... That does make sense to me. I had a random idea (one of the many). Why not have some classes in the hunters not allow drugs, and some lower level classes allow more drugs than normal. Ie, the short stirrup can use bigger ammounts of bute, pregreen no bute.

I don't think that most people can say 2 grams of bute for a 20 something horse that is still a great show horse, but is also 20 something is cruel. Those horses acatually seem to like carting kids around the ring.

All of my horses always got medication when they were pregreen horses even though they didn't need it... It is just done. I don't really think anyone ever thought why. Why not make classes like pregreen and babygreen not allow any medication? That way lame horses won't start out at shows.

Thanks for explaining. It does make sense to me when you said it seems odd that fit young horses are lame and need medication.

As a judge do you really see any horses that are truly sound that have shown a lot?

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Oh yes, the joys of hurricanes. As a native Mobilian, I can identify! We had an ice storm up here two years ago and the horses had to stay up for 10 days! It took two people to lead my mare out.

I think in those situations I would just let them stay out a few days before I rode again, but I understand that sometimes you cannot do that (say if you're at a show, or in a serious program prepping for a competition).

I think when we're in a situation where we're masking behavior with medication, we walk a fine line between modification and drug abuse. If I take a Xanax in a high-anxiety situation, I *do* feel better and I can cope. Don't ask me what 19 x 3 is, though. With that in mind, I would never get on a drugged horse and jump or do anything that requires 100% of the mental faculties.

In your Ace/hacking scenario, I agree that this is probably safe for you, and your horse, so I don't think that's really abusive. But in that same situation, I'd rather put one on a longe tape for 5 minutes, then climb aboard and do a few exercises that require them to use their noggins. Once you give them something to engage their brains, they usually settle right in.

R.

_ "Yeah well we both know that you don't play fair
I guess you really think that you get me there
Let's be honest perhaps this little ride is too much for even you to bear"_ Poe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I always worry about them running around and bucking on a lunge line then tieing up. Is this a valid concern, to those of you who are familure with tieing up? 1/2cc ace isn't much at all, but warmbloods react to ace so strongy that usually it makes mine quiet enough not to buck me off.

Nifty never bucks me off, as long as I have a loose rein he will trot quietly after 30 days in his stall.. Cantering is a different story though, but he only bucks a few times if he is fresh then settles in.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liverpool:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Darkerhorse:
My vet and I talked about Dex. He personally thinks it just makes horses feel more comfortable and therefore they go more quietly. My horses don't seem more quiet on dex than normal. If you think something is going to work, chances are the desired effect will happen.. Even if there is no evidence to support why it happens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am curious. What does your vet say about the immune system suppression?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't ask that direct question, but I will next time. I asked him what the risks were, he said there are always risks but at the dose we use they are miniscule.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

Ghazzu
Jan. 14, 2003, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
All of my horses always got medication when they were pregreen horses even though they didn't need it... It is just done. '<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then I would posit that despite all your posturing, you truly don't know what horsemanship is.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

M. O'Connor
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:16 PM
&lt;&lt;As a judge do you really see any horses that are truly sound that have shown a lot?&gt;&gt;

I've only had to "excuse" horses from competition due to apparent unsoundness exactly twice...one was in a hack; one had jumped and was asked not to return for a second trip. If I see one limping, I'm not going to go screaming out of my chair, I just quietly call the steward and ask that the message be delivered (it's not the type of thing I like to do via radio, either). Most horses that are competing in hunter and eq classes are apparently sound...that is to say, not limping. I don't keep track of whether an exhibitor shows alot or how sound their horses stay.

As a groom and trainer, I've taken care of plenty of horses who have had long sound careers. I used to groom equitation horses, and none that I took care of ever had to sit out a show due to lameness or "wear and tear" issues, and the most complicated item in my medicine chest was poultice.

Of course, there were only 3 big eq classes then...Medal, Maclay, and the PHA, with an odd USET every now and then. Now there are 5 big eq classes and a warm up at every show. Multiply 12 jumps x 5 and you have 50 competition jumps, plus warm-up, which makes 62, plus schooling which is probably another dozen efforts (74) and that's one show. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that mother nature just didn't make 'em to withstand that type of pounding week in and week out.

MCL

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
All of my horses always got medication when they were pregreen horses even though they didn't need it... It is just done. '<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then I would posit that despite all your posturing, you truly _don't_ know what horsemanship is.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine.. Horsemanship isn't something I care about if its going to be based on Monty Roberts type people screaming at me.

Others say its about doing what they think is best for the horse. I think aside from never riding a horse, giving it low ammounts of NSAIDS is the best thing for a horse at a horse show. Thats my horsemanship.

Have fun with yours. Tell me what I know and don't know about subjective material. Subjective material is not right or wrong, only each person knows what they personally hold as right or wrong. Anyone who judges someone on subjective material is an idiot.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

DMK
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Subjective material is not right or wrong, only each person knows what they personally hold as right or wrong. Anyone who judges someone on subjective material is an idiot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, I don't think there was a whole lot of subjective material on this thread. Most of the known facts were presented in a rational and accurate manner. If you choose to not believe it or ignore it, that is your right. It does not, however, make it subjective.

But I guess the idea of a hunter or breed judge being an idiot by mere virtue of their occupation (what with it being subjective and all) appeals to me on a base level...

"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Subjective material is not right or wrong, only each person knows what they personally hold as right or wrong. Anyone who judges someone on subjective material is an idiot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, I don't think there was a whole lot of subjective material on this thread. Most of the known facts were presented in a rational and accurate manner. If you choose to not believe it or ignore it, that is your right. It does not, however, make it subjective.

But I guess the idea of a hunter or breed judge being an idiot by mere virtue of their occupation (what with it being subjective and all) appeals to me on a base level...

_"But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool says to push on.
Pete Seeger_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, this person is bringing in 'horsemanship' from my horsemanship thread... She is just sour grapes. The definition of horsemanship is a subjective one, by her and other own admission in another thread.

For her to say I have none or that anyone has none is wrong, unless they are trying to do what they feel is wrong for a horse on purpose.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

Ghazzu
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

No, this person is bringing in 'horsemanship' from my horsemanship thread... She is just sour grapes. The definition of horsemanship is a subjective one, by her and other own admission in another thread.

For her to say I have none or that anyone has none is wrong, unless they are trying to do what they feel is wrong for a horse on purpose.

'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sour grapes? Total non sequitir, honey. I am in no way jealous of you or your horses. Mine have saddles that fit and backs that aren't sore, and they go well without needing drugs.

And there is as much damage done to horses by ignorance as intent.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:

No, this person is bringing in 'horsemanship' from my horsemanship thread... She is just sour grapes. The definition of horsemanship is a subjective one, by her and other own admission in another thread.

For her to say I have none or that anyone has none is wrong, unless they are trying to do what they feel is wrong for a horse on purpose.

'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sour grapes? Total non sequitir, honey. I am in no way jealous of you or your horses. Mine have saddles that fit and backs that aren't sore, and they go well without needing drugs.

And there is as much damage done to horses by ignorance as intent.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Do my horses look damaged? No. They aren;t on any medications. You don't know them. You don't know what I do. I coudl be pretty nasty about you and your horses. I have not been. Perhaps your horses would be medicated if they were mine because I would consider them lame. Maybe not. Anyway, I have posted pics of all my horses here in various places, Find one that looks like it is harmed. They aren't.


You just are sour grapes.

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

Ghazzu
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse


Do my horses look damaged? No. They aren;t on any medications. You don't know them. You don't know what I do. I coudl be pretty nasty about you and your horses. I have not been. Perhaps your horses would be medicated if they were mine because I would consider them lame. Maybe not. Anyway, I have posted pics of all my horses here in various places, Find one that looks like it is harmed. They aren't.


You just are sour grapes.

'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Number one-- You already stated that " All of my horses always got medication when they were pregreen horses even though they didn't need it... It is just done."

Number two--I sincerely doubt that you've ever even *seen* my horses, so there is no possible way you could evaluate their soundness.


Number three--the object here isn't to see who can get the "nastiest". Trust me, I could lay you out in lavender, except that Erin would delete the posts, and I see no reason to try her patience. I have long since despaired of changing your self-serving viewpoint. I have posted only in the hope that others might find some worth in my ramblings.

My participation in any dialogue with you is ended. It's clearly a waste of time.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

DarkerHorse
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse


Do my horses look damaged? No. They aren;t on any medications. You don't know them. You don't know what I do. I coudl be pretty nasty about you and your horses. I have not been. Perhaps your horses would be medicated if they were mine because I would consider them lame. Maybe not. Anyway, I have posted pics of all my horses here in various places, Find one that looks like it is harmed. They aren't.


You just are sour grapes.

'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Number one-- You already stated that " All of my horses always got medication when they were pregreen horses even though they didn't need it... It is just done."

Number two--I sincerely doubt that you've ever even *seen* my horses, so there is no possible way you could evaluate their soundness.


Number three--the object here isn't to see who can get the "nastiest". Trust me, I could lay you out in lavender, except that Erin would delete the posts, and I see no reason to try her patience. I have long since despaired of changing your self-serving viewpoint. I have posted only in the hope that others might find some worth in my ramblings.

My participation in any dialogue with you is ended. It's clearly a waste of time.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She woudn't delete it if it had a point... Let's see pictures of your fine horses...

---
'NAKED Lunch- a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every fork..'

'Hand me... A knitting needle.'

paw
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:35 PM
Ok, children - I think we've had enough.

DH, what some people are saying is that they have a hard time believing that routinely medicating horses just to get them into the show ring (or, even worse, as a matter of course) is in any sense "horsemanship".

One would hope your show pictures are pretty.

caffeinated
Jan. 15, 2003, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jubilee220:

You are out of line. Such insulting responses and outbursts of directed anger are not allowed on this site.

Why does a given situation, or sign have to be strange and out of time to be of God? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Anger? No. Never. Just an observation and a question. I am never Angry. I just use caps and huge words to express myself via internet where emotions cannot be expressed.

And god is just a myth. Well maybe not, but I don't see how gof matters in this post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uh, richard, that "God" thing is her signature. It didn't have anything to do with this post.

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**