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View Full Version : Dr. Dieter Plewa about Totilas and German Dressage



LanceBehind
May. 24, 2012, 06:48 PM
<< Discussions within the scene, consisting of trainers, riders and judges are just as important as discussions with the public, represented by the press or on Internet.. Such discussions are useful but only if it is objective and are also conducted on the basis of sound technical knowledge. I miss the knowledge part in these public forum discussions, where everything is represented as -black-or-white.Especially the polemical criticism of certain "training methods" without any science or expertise to back up the accusations. >>


The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.



Full article (in German)

http://www.reiterjournal.com/rj-aktuell/details-rj-aktuell/article/dietrich-plewa-zu-totilas-und-dem-deutschen-dressursport-6008//abp/159.html

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2012, 07:16 PM
So funny I had my first lesson since January yesterday with a German trainer and it was LOVELY, but I was so unused to the "Keep her head more up, ya? We all see she is obedient, she needs to stay above more and open, ya?"

LOVELY lengthenings after a bit of that :)

However, she admits the round work and down and low is important too, but true to nature she would rather see the uphill frame MOST of the ride.

Coming from ALWAYS Dutch I was a bit nervous about the new training but my seat I have a feeling will get some serious overhaul in a good way since that is another thing she really focuses on.

If you are lucky you can find someone who is more "classic" without the ridged riding, and maybe still have want for the LDR.

For now I do believe the best is to ride the step your given with whatever will work best.

I just want the two to just marry already and have little Dutch/German babies that ride like Carl Hester!:lol::lol:

opel
May. 25, 2012, 10:06 AM
Imagine my surprise when I took some lessons with a "classical" instructor and even he told me to warm my horse up in a deep frame. I mean, way BTV! He had everyone else doing long and low with nose poked out. He just explained that my particular horse needs to warm-up deep in order to move and loosen her loin. He was pretty matter-of-fact that her conformation and movement was different than the other horses and this is what she needs. I will admit that it made me feel better about the advice I had received from my regular German trainer also. So, really.....and it makes all the sense in the world.....each horse needs something a little different depending on conformation, movement, temperment, etc. Arbitrary decisions on our part about what is "right", without taking the horse into consideration, is pretty short-sighted and silly. This rush to condemn reasonable and often very beneficial training methods is the mark of an armchair rider, in my opinion.

Kyzteke
May. 25, 2012, 11:48 AM
QUOTE: The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.

There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.

As for confusing "rolleur" with "long & low"....I think that IS the sign of an armchair rider...there is no force with the latter -- the horse is simply stretching it's topline while still moving forward.

Big difference.

rodawn
May. 25, 2012, 12:00 PM
QUOTE: The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.

There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.

As for confusing "rolleur" with "long & low"....I think that IS the sign of an armchair rider...there is no force with the latter -- the horse is simply stretching it's topline while still moving forward.

Big difference.

An emphatic yes indeed! Long and Low and allows a natural rounding of the topline and is also accompanied with forward with the rider encouraging engagement of the hidnquarters. This connects the back to the mouth.

True rollkur is very tight with the chin much too close to the chest. Long and low is more open with the top of the neck arched, but the throatlatch is still open.

I've trained both Dutch and German. While techniques between the two trainers were slightly different (and neither were rollkur), the basis behind the philosophies was similar. Horses that tend to naturally be really "UP" through the neck should be ridden lots long and low and also up as long as up is also engaged. Those horses that tend to prefer low should be ridden more up with particular emphasis on engagement of the hindquarter. All horses need to move and vary in between the two frequently throughout the lesson, but each start at one place and should finish in the same place.

LanceBehind
May. 25, 2012, 05:06 PM
There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.


The silly statement comes from you.

Please add "As far as I know" at the beginning of your text .

Like Carl Hester wrote in his latest column for H&H :

'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'

siegi b.
May. 25, 2012, 09:18 PM
The silly statement comes from you.

Please add "As far as I know" at the beginning of your text .

Like Carl Hester wrote in his latest column for H&H :

'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'

This, with two !!!!!

Donella
May. 25, 2012, 10:21 PM
'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'

Amen.

Mike Matson
May. 26, 2012, 01:28 AM
Once you sign up on this forum with your alt, you automatically qualify. Anyone know what alt Carl Hester uses here? ;)

suzy
May. 26, 2012, 08:30 PM
Well said, Lance.

Neither rollkur nor long or low are beneficial if the horse is forced into the position. I've seen more bad long and low than bad rollkur. I see far too many People who think that it's okay to have the neck long and low and nose out, but with the horse pulling itself along with its shoulders, a tight back, and hind legs trailing out behind; no lifting or swinging of the back whatsoever. There is a real misconception and misuse of BOTH techniques.

Carol Ames
May. 27, 2012, 07:43 AM
If wishes were horses...
that people would talk less about head and neck:mad: and more about THE BACK1:cool::yes:

HeyItsCharnae
May. 27, 2012, 08:16 AM
If wishes were horses...
that people would talk less about head and neck:mad: and more about THE BACK1:cool::yes:

Good point. They all work in conjunction, but I've seen waaaay more people worrying just about headset rather than the back, shoulder, hind etc.

siegi b.
May. 27, 2012, 10:45 AM
The quoted article by Dr. Plewa should be required reading for all dressage riders and folks discussing the sport.

MysticOakRanch
May. 27, 2012, 12:01 PM
Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.

NOMIOMI1
May. 27, 2012, 12:39 PM
Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.

Agreed.

Like, when we watch a gymnast do their butterfly crunches in their routine... LOL Even though they probably do these things 5000-1 difficult vault, it is not included in the result's for show.

Galloping the lane is also not included in upper level test... Should we avoid that as well? Should I make sure all hay stays above ground so that the poll is highest then too?

True results are seen in muscle when you variate... Period.

netg
May. 27, 2012, 04:31 PM
Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.

Yep. It is REALLY easy to get the poll as the highest point if you let your horse invert. Just like it's REALLY easy to get a horse's neck rounded if you have it on the forehand and not moving in its back. Neither is the solution to suppleness overall, and while I would rather see a horse on the edge of coming above the bit to one on the edge of coming behind the bit as a personal preference, I prefer suppleness, swinging backs and proper use of the hind end over any head position.


My new favorite noun-as-verb: Variate. ;)

grayarabpony
May. 27, 2012, 04:37 PM
Once you sign up on this forum with your alt, you automatically qualify. Anyone know what alt Carl Hester uses here? ;)

:lol: