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Goodmudder
Aug. 9, 2000, 09:41 PM
According to a press release today, the NHS has cancelled the hunter division for the year 2000. See 9:11 p.m. post today under thread "National Horse Show." Also, I believe it will be discussed on Towerheads tomorrow.

Goodmudder
Aug. 9, 2000, 09:41 PM
According to a press release today, the NHS has cancelled the hunter division for the year 2000. See 9:11 p.m. post today under thread "National Horse Show." Also, I believe it will be discussed on Towerheads tomorrow.

Bertie
Aug. 9, 2000, 09:47 PM
This is from Goodmudder...
-----------------------------

"THE NATIONAL HORSE SHOW
P.O. Box 2761, New York, NY 10116-2761

Press Release - Wednesday, August 9, 2000
Contact: Carolyn Vincent 1-516-484-1865 (phone)
1-516-484-1982 (fax)


National Horse Show Announces 2000 Suspension of Hunter Show

Responding to refusal by leaders of the National Hunter/Jumper Council
(NHJC) of the American Horse Shows Association (AHSA) to recommend
continued approval of variations in the AHSA rules for AHSA recognition in
2000, the National Horse Show will suspend the planned activities in the
Hunter division for this year only, it was announced today by Chrystine J.
Tauber, Executive Director of the National Horse Show at Madison Square
Garden. The action was approved at a conference call meeting of the
National's Board of Directors held today. Due to the schedule restrictions
at the Garden the show has run each year since 1996 with AHSA rule
modifications.

"Owing to additional scheduling problems at the Garden," Tauber said, "we
were faced with the prospect of further condensing our show into even one
less day than we had run on since 1996. To offer a spectacular although
shorter show we developed a program which would have greatly increased
prize money to over $450,000 in Hunter and Jumper classes, including a
$100,000 Hunter Classic. However, to do this, all Hunter classes would
have to be held on one day (Saturday) with the Hunter Classic on Saturday
evening.

"Working with AHSA staff and legal counsel on the problems this presented
in the AHSA rules, we prepared a proposal for the AHSA Executive Committee.
We proposed that the National be AHSA recognized, as a Local Competition,
but that would have required modifications of the rules for the
extraordinary circumstances we are facing. For example, a Local show
cannot offer prize money over $500. We also proposed that the exhibitors
compete without being awarded AHSA points in the Hunter division, owing to
the condensed schedule. In addition, we suggested that the Under Saddle
classes be combined into a special event format, which would have been
another variation of the rules."

The AHSA Executive Committee met by telephone conference to consider the
proposed "Presidential Modification" of the rules on Monday morning, August
7. The AHSA Constitution specifically permits such modifications "under
special circumstances." Since AHSA president Alan F. Balch is also
president of the National Horse Show, he recused himself from consideration
of the issue. The Executive Committee acts for the president in such
matters when the president discloses a potential conflict of interest,
under a procedure recommended by the AHSA Legal Review Committee when Balch
took office in 1997. The procedure has been followed each year since then
on rule matters involving the National Horse Show.

At the end of the meeting, Balch said, he was asked to join the conference.
"Two members of the Executive Committee made it clear that they did not
support granting a modification to the rules as proposed. NHJC president
Tom Struzzieri represented that the Hunter and Jumper community did not
favor the concept we proposed, and that he and the officers of the National
Hunter/Jumper Council unanimously felt that the show could not be AHSA
recognized. Eric Straus said that other members of the Executive Committee
not from the Hunter/Jumper disciplines ought to defer to the recommendation
of the Council leadership. Several members suggested that the proposal be
referred back to the entire Board of Governors of the Council, scheduled to
meet Tuesday evening, August 8, and all agreed.

Balch said, "I contacted Mrs. Kenneth Wheeler (director and benefactor of
the National) Monday afternoon to advise her of the situation. On Tuesday
afternoon, after thinking everything through, she reached me just prior to
the Council Board of Governors monthly conference call to say that she had
decided that if there was such a feeling by the Council leaders and the
exhibitors they represent, then there was no point going forward with our
plans for this year. I agreed with her."
Mrs. Wheeler emphasized that the show was not being cancelled or ended.
"We will produce a beautiful show for the Maclay horsemanship finals, and
any parts of the schedule other than the Hunters that we can arrange, but
the location at this time is undecided. And next year, without the
additional scheduling problems we face this year with the Grammy Awards, we
expect that we will be able to go back to our previous format at the
Garden. We're going to go to work on that right now, and it will be
fabulous, as always. But we are not going to have a show which is not AHSA
recognized. We need the drug rules and we need the Hunter and Jumper rules
and the rule enforcement and the insurance protection, just for starters.
I've been an AHSA director for as long as I can remember, and both Alan
[Balch] and I would never be involved with a show which is not AHSA
recognized, and I don't think any of our other directors would be either.
I would never dream of asking favors of people who don't think that the
exhibitors they represent would support the format we worked out, or who
believe that the AHSA should not approve it."

Balch reported Mrs. Wheeler's decision to the NHJC Board of Governors when
called upon on Tuesday evening. He said that lengthy and acrimonious
discussion followed, which he described as "difficult and hard to believe."
He said, "Mr. Struzzieri never wavered from his view that the show should
not be AHSA recognized under the conditions proposed, nor did Leo Conroy or
Sue Ashe. They're entitled to their opinions, and we are entitled to our
own. Mine is that I think this situation demonstrates that we need more
flexibility in several areas of the AHSA rules, to encourage innovative
thinking to move the entire sport forward. Many of us seem to have
forgotten that compromises in many rules were made over the decades to
accommodate the needs of special events like the indoor shows, and
particularly the Garden, which is so different from any other show as to be
literally unique. Frankly, we did not expect any resistance at all to what
we had proposed, and we are surprised by how vehement it is. If this sport
is to catch up with the rest of the world, we are going to have to embrace
change, and fortunately, most of us are willing to do that."

Hattie
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:20 PM
When the AHSA/NHJC makes these decisions so late in the year don't they realize what they have done to the AHSA members that have made decisions based on qualifying. For example I have a neighbor that has shipped her horse to Vermont just to make sure she is(was) getting into New York. If she had known it wasn't necessary she could have stayed in Florida to show and saved THOUSANDS of dollars. I know of someone else that turned down a extravagant offer on her horse because this was going to be her last year to show at New York. Do the higher ups even care??? I hope there is a huge outcry from members.

Pewter
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:21 PM
Trying to read between the lines of the attached release.....is there any way this is a "payback" to Balch/AHSA for not facilitating the T.S. year end show at November? No hidden agenda in my asking this question, just curious if anyone knows.....

Goodmudder
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:26 PM
Pewter, I don't know - altho the power struggle is evident, and I am a little guy who knows nothing except that in the end it will undoubtedly be us exhibitors that get screwed. Your theory would certainly make sense, except it also states that others, in addition to T.S., took the same view.

Anyone know what's going on here?

And, Hattie - the answer to your question, I think, is a resounding THEY DON'T CARE! They are running a business, not a sport.
That's the sad part.

Let's see what Towerheads.com has to say in the morning.

[This message has been edited by Goodmudder (edited 08-09-2000).]

havaklu
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:28 PM
Bertie -

Where did you find that press release?

This is really a sad situation for those who had achieved the goal of qualifying for the Garden.

Bertie
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:32 PM
The press release was sent to Goodmudder. I just helped to get it posted here.

Goodmudder
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:33 PM
havaklu -

In response to the rumors, I emailed the AHSA today and asked the question. They responded very promptly via email with that press release, which they had just gotten.

But I didn't know how to get it on the board, so Bertie came to the rescue!

Smiles
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:33 PM
So now there is only going to be Washington and Penn horse show? Yet again the Ahsa Screws up. Tell me again why we pay all of this money to be members of an association that has it's head stuck up it's @ss. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif Oh yah what ever happen to the Marshal/sterling thing did they ever find a place for that?

DMK
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:42 PM
Sad, when I first read the other thread this AM, I was thinking wouldn't it be neat if they didn't necessarily did the full division thing that is so incomprehensible (read: boring) to the average spectators, and instead did a warm up/prep/qualifying type class(es) in the AM, followed by a really spectacular big money class in the evening? With, maybe a really sharp announcer who could explain the hunters to the unlearned?

I mean wouldn't that be the sort of thinking out of the box that hunters need right now? Instead we seem to have bickering. Sounds just like all th major corporations I have ever owrked for. Dilbert in action. Only not the funny side of Dilbert...

Goodmudder
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:44 PM
Smiles, Marshall & Sterling finals are at the Duke Benefit in North Carolina in November, I believe. Check out:
http://www.hitsshows.com

then, check out the M & S icon.

ErinB
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:50 PM
That is beyond terrible. Think of all the people that have their hearts set on showing at the Garden! And all the pony kids who worked so hard to get their little mounts qualified only to be told that they can't go after all and a year's worth of work was wasted. This is outrageous...

Hattie
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:50 PM
Pewter - I was thinking along the same lines! I am even more concerned in what this industry is going to be like in 5 years. I can picture it now - a monopoly of the shows by 2 managers. EVERYONE please go to the NHJA website to review the rule changes and provide support for these changes! Even though the NHS hunter division cancellation doesn't affect me it has left a very bad taste in my mouth!

Kryswyn
Aug. 9, 2000, 10:57 PM
All I can say is sad, sadder, saddest. It was bad enough when they had to eviscerate the National this year to make it fit.

I vote they move it out to Long Island to the LI Colliseum. No one will come to watch anyway, wherever they hold it; and it's better than New Jersey (Sorry, Garden State - I'm from LI! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Bertie
Aug. 9, 2000, 11:11 PM
I think it's terrible that a decision like this was made in the MIDDLE of the year! Beyond that, I'm confused..... T.S. "and the officers of the National Hunter/Jumper Council unanimously felt that the show could not be AHSA recognized"

Does this mean that the show won't be recognized at all, including the Maclay finals?

Will there be jumpers? And if so, will the FEI still be involved? Will the Maclay finals be required to comply with FEI rules?

"Mrs. Wheeler emphasized that the show was not being cancelled or ended. 'We will produce a beautiful show for the Maclay horsemanship finals, and any parts of the schedule other than the Hunters that we can arrange, but the location at this time is undecided."

So, no Garden at all?

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-09-2000).]

Hattie
Aug. 9, 2000, 11:22 PM
Bertie - the decision was made at the END of the qualifying year, that's what I find unbelieveable!

Bertie
Aug. 9, 2000, 11:28 PM
You're right, Hattie. Terrible.

Personally, tho, we have a rider that could make it to the Maclay finals, and we wouldn't be too upset if the class was somewhere else. It's the hunter riders that had the Garden as their goal that I feel VERY bad for.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-09-2000).]

Becca
Aug. 10, 2000, 12:45 AM
Just hunter people ? What are Maclay finals w/o the Garden? NY was my DREAM- totally, and entirely. It kills me to finally be getting close enough to have it be feasible, and the door was slammed right in my face...

I know I'm not the only one- I loved NY, nothing was more incredible. It DOES cost a fortune to qualify, and its ridiculous that we find out now that the insane campaigning is unnecessary. Lovely.

Pewter
Aug. 10, 2000, 12:47 AM
I would like to reiterate a point made earlier....it is not just the personal disappointment of those that have qualified for these shows that is disturbing (the Garden, M&S finals) - it is the thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars spent by exhibitors all year attempting to qualify which have literally been wasted - I've been showing for 30 years and can't recall ever seeing such a blatant disregard for the competitor as has been evidenced this year. In my opinion we are truly at a point where the whole horse show industry succumbs to the whims of a couple of people managing 99% of the shows.

Astraled
Aug. 10, 2000, 01:43 AM
Some national show, huh http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ?

EquiMom
Aug. 10, 2000, 02:16 AM
Dreams are being shattered!--Money is down the drain!--Blood, sweat and tears spilled--and all for naught! This is representation??

Snowbird
Aug. 10, 2000, 02:16 AM
Well I think if it's true it just proves that the Hunter/Jumper Council which is supposed to represent us, doesn't give a d*** about us. It is sad that they choose to take this way to get even because they didn't get the prizes that they wanted,

I don't blame Mrs. Wheeler if they never invite another hunter. The fact is they do meet the criteria for a C Show without any doubt. Gee! I guess if they didn't want to give away so much money to the hunters then it would be legal. What great rules we have! And, what a time to get nit picky.

The fact is that we all know the Garden can't meet a lot of requirements and I doubt there has been a single show there that was totally legal, but, suddenly we are so righteous.

That's what happens when the members don't have a vote, and don't have the right to know before these things happen. It is a pity that we have one last Institution that brought so pride to our sport and these clunkers have to ruin it because they're sulking.

Imagine the nerve the AHSA asked for a budget for their show! They were supposed to declare their costs and where the money was going. The National Horse Show is a freeby, they have their own corporation and pays their own bills, and don't tap our pockets for dues.

My Suggestion is get the mail going. Email,snail mail, fax and phone calls from you and your friends to the so-called Hunter Jumper Council. Tell them what you think and tell them you want to secede from their group and pick some other discipline. I think Tom Struzzeri is a bully and so used to getting his own way he doesn't care about anyone if he let this go by.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-10-2000).]

Gayle
Aug. 10, 2000, 08:03 AM
As someone with a green horse coming along and hopes of taking her to the NHS and be the second in our family to go; I am angry and disappointed. I for one am not even going to kill ourselves trying to qualify if there is going to the be the constant THREAT of the whole thing being canceled at the last minute. I for one think that they ought to start refunding some money to everyone who spent the bank trying to qualify for that event. What a crime that their egos come before the competitors needs/dreams/wishes and desires.

Magnolia
Aug. 10, 2000, 08:04 AM
It seems like hunters are all about tradition - dress, style etc. The National Horse Show was a part of the tradition, and they are eliminating that???
I feel so bad for everyone who qualified and must miss out on this tradition.

Reckoning
Aug. 10, 2000, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
That is beyond terrible. Think of all the people that have their hearts set on showing at the Garden! And all the pony kids who worked so hard to get their little mounts qualified only to be told that they can't go after all and a year's worth of work was wasted. This is outrageous...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI, they don't have pony hunters at the National. Pony hunters were invited during the show's years at the Meadowlands (as opposed to the Garden), and haven't been held since the move back to the Garden.

AHC
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:14 AM
I am totally appalled by this. All I can say is that those from the NHJC who held fast and wouldn't compromise to help make this show happen do not have my support, and I do not believe that their view "represents" anything but their own business interests. It makes me very sad that their personality conflicts run so deep that they couldn't see past them.

Personally, I thought the one day format for the hunters wasn't ideal, but would actually be better and more interesting for spectators. And it was a way to keep a longstanding tradition going. Not to mention how appalled I am to think of this happening at the END of a qualifying year.

Today is a very sad day.

Reckoning
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:27 AM
I'm a bit confused. I read elsewhere that the entire National horse show is being cancelled, not just the hunter divisions? Can anyone clarify this? Will the Maclay finals be at New York? Will there be jumpers?

woodbern
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:29 AM
Uh oh....... do I sense lawsuits looming over "emotional pain and suffering, distress, et al" from some would-have-been year 2000 exhibitors?

Don't be surprised folks.

This is going to be ugly.......

Twister
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

My Suggestion is get the mail going. Email,snail mail, fax and phone calls from you and your friends to the so-called Hunter Jumper Council. Tell them what you think and tell them you want to secede from their group and pick some other discipline. I think Tom Struzzeri is a bully and so used to getting his own way he doesn't care about anyone if he let this go by.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-10-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!!! And all of you who support Tom's shows should perhaps rethink your schedules in the future. He takes away our show, we take away hissupport!!!

brilyntrip
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:54 AM
OkI am going out on a limb here but..... and I hardly ever do this..... BUt I think that the NHJC is doing the right thing !!!!!!Do any of you know that the undersaddle classes would be combined classes???i.e.juniors and amateurs and greens together there was something along those lines going on there and I think only two jumping classes.The entry fees were like $ 3500 for this PULEEEZ that cannot be a show where end of yearpoints could ever count!!I support Tom Leo and Sue !!!Why would anyone want to show at the Garden under the current circumstances ???

pwynnnorman
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:55 AM
"[T]hose from the NHJC who held fast and wouldn't compromise to help make this show happen do not have my support, and I do not believe that their view "represents" anything but their own business interests."

AHC, you said it! Snowbird is soooo right that they just don't represent the interests of the MAJORITY of competitors and other SUPPORTERS of the sport, a lot of whom will never themselves get to show at such an awesome venue as the Garden, but for whom it is one of the highlights of the year to see the big vans parked out there in the streets, with the people on the sidewalks ooh-ing and ahh-ing. That's the image, in fact, that I have in my mind whenever I'm posting about the PR of the sport and thinking from the outside in, the general public's perspective and that of the media.

But they don't CARE! It's just a couple of people and their businesses! Ask yourself, just how many people DO LC, TS and SA represent? HOW MANY!!!! Did they even BOTHER to ask their OWN CLIENTS how much the rating mattered or WHY?

You know, if everyone on the NHJC board had 1000 clients each, I could understand the power they want to wield, BUT THEY DON'T!

Harris
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:05 AM
Brilyntrip, not trying to be argumentative, and don't necessarily disagree with you, but my issue with all of this is why were the time constraints/expenses only aired at the last minute? I certainly have no inside knowledge here, but it seems these are not decisions that should be made at the END of the show season after exhibitors have spent the whole year trying to qualify.

Kryswyn
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:11 AM
First let me say that I REALLY empathsize with the people who've knocked themselves out to gualify. It's akin to the Olympic athletes who trained for Years to peak for the 1980 Summer Games which USA did not attend due to boycott of Russia. Many of today's Juniors do not even know that happened!

But the otherside of the coin is: Is the ribbon that says NHS 2000 REALLY as meaningful if you only showed in 2 o/f classes and hacked combined w/other divisions?(basically a "C" show)

Wouldn't people (being what they are) tend to denigrate them? "Oh he was Champion in 2000, that wasn't REALLY the Garden, that was a C show" What would it be like for the previous trophy winners who contested an A3 division and prevailed to see this years winner having only won a 1st o/f and not placing in the other o/f class & the combined hack?

Sometimes, if it isn't the whole enchilada, it's not worth having it. This is not to take away from the horses who would've competed! Again, going back to the 1980 summer games, the athletes who won deserved to, but in many cases, the *person* to beat was an American, who couldn't attend.

EquiMom
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woodbern:
Uh oh....... do I sense lawsuits looming over "emotional pain and suffering, distress, et al" from some would-have-been year 2000 exhibitors?

Don't be surprised folks.

This is going to be ugly.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I not only SMELL lawsuit...I've have HEARD the word (and intent) being bandied about already-- by more than one!...ugly (and unnecessary) indeed!

For a sport so steeped in tradition, let's just ponder all the ramifications--large and small--that this BREAK with tradition will initiate well into the future...

Just imagine what a hot seller the next NHS logo T-shirt will be--if it does get back on track for next (some) year: "NATIONAL HORSE SHOW...(and underneath) A PROUD TRADITION SINCE 0 YEAR".....or the bright, shiny NHS PROGRAM with all those expensive adverstisements http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif reading: "The Ist Annual National Horse Show...???

Smiles
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:29 AM
For what I read at Towheads it seems the hole Show has been cancelled! Another Blow to the head.

ErinB
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smiles:
For what I read at Towheads it seems the hole Show has been cancelled! Another Blow to the head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, well, it doesn't matter, it still wouldn't be the same without the hunters... apparently it would have been a lot smaller and have a lot less prestige this year anyway and according to some of the other sites I visited a lot of non-hunter people were not planning on going this year due entirely to the lack of glory this year's show was going to have.

Van Teal
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:39 AM
I agree that this is a real shame to the exhibitors who have tried to qualify, I think that Leo, Tom and Sue did the right thing. If it was all about the money, Leo sure would not have contested it, his horses were either qualified or have gotten qualified, I admire the fact they did take a stand against it for the obvious reasons, it was a horse show breaking the rules, why should the National be above the rules? just because of who runs it? I say find another venue that's more horse friendly, and if the people who run it are creative enough, they WILL have the spectators, sponsers, etc...no matter where it's held. JMHO putting on flame suit and leaving now.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:55 AM
But, brilyn, why can;t they COMPROMISE about the points so that the show still runs under the AHSA auspices? Wouldn't "C" rated points make the results so relatively insignificant to that quality of horse's year-end total as to make it irrelevant? And if the problem is "buying" the point because of the expense, well, doesn't that already happen a lot anyway? (Filling and padding classes with non-competitive entries for example.) I'm probably missing something here, but I don't see how ONE show would make such a difference, EXCEPT maybe to one or two powerful clients who would find themselves in some kind of unacceptable circumstance or something? I can't see how it would matter to the majority of those who would participate.

Black Market Radio
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:59 AM
"Tom Struzzieri represented that the Hunter and Jumper community did not favor the concept we proposed"
Dare I ask WHERE he got this idea???? WHO the memebers of said "community" was that he asked? The wealthy few that have enough points to not care, or the people who wanted and were planning on showing?

Jumphigh83
Aug. 10, 2000, 11:14 AM
Whoever decided to move the HS out of NJ (by way of kissing Mr Dolans behind) is who made the mistake..The city is NO place for a HS it is gross, dirty, and certainly not in the best interest of the horses. It is a shame that so many people will be hurt by the arbitrary and capricious behavior of our governing body but since when is this a surprise?

Twister
Aug. 10, 2000, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:

Wouldn't people (being what they are) tend to denigrate them? "Oh he was Champion in 2000, that wasn't REALLY the Garden, that was a C show" What would it be like for the previous trophy winners who contested an A3 division and prevailed to see this years winner having only won a 1st o/f and not placing in the other o/f class & the combined hack?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the NHS has had any sort of 'A' rating since it returned to the Garden. It has been a 'C' or a local.
And why would it mean less? It's not the rating of the show that creates the competition, it is the competitors. People are planning their last shows, tallying points, etc. They want to test themselves against the best of the best at the most prestigious show in the country. That show is New York, A, C or Pony Club rating...

[This message has been edited by Twister (edited 08-10-2000).]

Goodmudder
Aug. 10, 2000, 11:25 AM
You know, I for one don't really know who is right in this power struggle, and I am hoping that someone can clarify the issues. But clearly, it IS a power struggle. And if there were issues to be resolved, it seems to me that NHJC could have made a statement concerning NEXT YEAR, and gone ahead with this one. But - dropping a bomb like this all of a sudden is what gives them the POWER - a surprise attack, so to speak. My IMPRESSION is that Struzzieri doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone else, but I have always heard that Leo Conroy is well-respected and reasonable. So what gives?

I do not think it is coincidence that TWO groups of exhibitors - both the National and the Marshall & Sterling people - have been adversely affected by Mr. Struzzieri's decisions.

Here is my hope: that this is SO overboard, so repugnant, that there really WILL be a groundswell, and we can accomplish what we should: repeal the mileage rule, take the power away from people who abuse it, and get back to fun. Read Susie Hume's article on Towerheads with radical suggestions! UNTIL WE REPEAL THAT RULE, I DON NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING WILL CHANGE FOR THE BETTER OF THE EXHIBITORS.

I suggest that we make Mr. Struzzieri pay, big time - or else that he come forward, either on this board or somewhere else,and explain himself.

Twister
Aug. 10, 2000, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
"
But they don't CARE! It's just a couple of people and their businesses! Ask yourself, just how many people DO LC, TS and SA represent? HOW MANY!!!! Did they even BOTHER to ask their OWN CLIENTS how much the rating mattered or WHY?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leo is the only one with 'clients', per se. Tom is a horse show manager, although he may still have a barn that employs a trainer. I know he had one 15-ish years ago. Sue hasn't had much in the way of clients since her kids aged out.

LindaAllen
Aug. 10, 2000, 12:09 PM
Lots of important points here -- but I remind everyone to get the FACTS straight before coming to your own conclusions. I am sure that the details of the NHS's request to the AHSA Executive Committee for a legal and with long precedented 'modification to the rules' could be made totally public, with the permission of the NHS Foundation, but I can tell you it was for "recognition" without 'points' (ie A, B, or C rating). Ability to have and enforce rules, offer a special event, but without having it affect HOTY results. This plan was not a suitable compromise to the NHJC according to its leadership. The AHSA Executive Committee never had the opportunity to vote on the issue since the notification that the show would go on hiatus came just prior to the NHJC conference call meeting. The Exec. Committee had voted on Monday to hear the opinion of the entire NHJC Board of Govenors prior to making their decision. I personally feel very badly for everyone who had the NHS as their goal this year! It is a terrible disappointment to so many. But I do think that it is a clear example of how short-term thinking and the inability of so many to put their own personal interest behind that of the sport as a whole can result in actions that have "unintended consequences" that affect everyone. But I will repeat PLEASE take the time to get all the facts before rallying behind a cry of "unfair."

Goodmudder
Aug. 10, 2000, 12:21 PM
Are you saying that NHJC forced the cancellation by not giving AHSA the opportunity to actually meet their "demands.?" I am confused.

Skipper
Aug. 10, 2000, 01:03 PM
I find it VERY HARD to believe that none of the NHS "planning committee" didn't realize long ago that they would not be able to fit what used to take 4-5 days to run into what? 2-3 days??? I'm sure that the Madison Sq. Garden bookings are done years(1-2??) in advance and nobody thought back then that this was going to cause a problem. I also feel very sorry for the people who busted butt to qualify for the NHS. As a middle-class A/A I know realistically I probably wouldn't be able to afford a horse talented enough or the $$$ to campaign him enough to qualify for the NHS but it sure has always been a dream......what a shame...

ccoronios
Aug. 10, 2000, 01:32 PM
I don't know whether to cry or toss lunch.

I'll never forget the first time my grandparents took me to the Garden - I was about 12 and one of our team horses died. But OH, the wonderful feeling - tradition, glamour, and dreams.

I can't even imagine how angry and frustrated I would be if I had scrimped and saved and worked my way to qualification - in ANY division - this year to have this happen.

I think one of the things we (h/j people) need to keep in mind is that h/js aren't the only divisions at that show. There are a great many saddleseat junior riders out there who have worked JUST AS HARD to qualify in what is now called the NHS Event (formerly The Good Hands Class).

This is one more instance where, if we could all stick together, we might accomplish something!

horsenut
Aug. 10, 2000, 01:53 PM
So much to absorb and respond to ...

Brilyntrip: Although the entry fees were rumored to be high (you mentioned $3500), so were the prizes. I read that each OF class was going to have $10,000 in prize money. With only 10 horses in each class, there was a good opportunity to reap some rewards. And I originally thought the idea of a combined under saddle was a good one -- wouldn't an under saddle mean THAT MUCH MORE if it was against "the best of the best" -- from ALL divisions? Imagine being a junior and beating one of the professionals? It would be a great feeling.

Pwynn: You have perfectly summed up my lasting image of the Garden -- horse vans on the sidewalks. As I posted in another thread, no this is not ideal for the horses -- they're inside without seeing daylight for a couple of days! But for spectators who SUPPORT the industry, going to the Garden for the National is a feeling unlike any other.

Can we keep it going elsewhere? I hope so. I'd feel so badly for all those who worked to qualify and then had the rug pulled out from under them. Won't someone step forward and offer a site for the show?

If we want to run an event that will attract spectators, perhaps we should ask Las Vegas Events to plan it -- they did a great job on the World Cup! As much as I hate the idea of losing the Garden, I hate giving up easily too.

Erin
Aug. 10, 2000, 02:05 PM
The latest news from the Chronicle office is that the entire show has been cancelled. I'll pass along more details as we get them.

speedracer
Aug. 10, 2000, 02:14 PM
Linda Allen (are you THE Linda Allen?)--you have a good point about the facts. But facts or no facts, it does seem as if the whole nightmare boils down to a nasty power struggle. Having taken your advice to the best of my ability, I've now read the AHSA press release several times. I've also checked out the accompanying coverage on Towerheads. I must say the press release and the situation are not the clearest things ever presented.

To sacrifice the hunter classes at the National is petty, regardless of who is to blame. To cancel the entire show is even more ridiculous. I grew up in Manhattan and have attended the NHS since the 1960s. The show isn't what it was, but then again, it hasn't been for years. Still, the allure of qualifying for Madison Square Garden puts stars in many peoples eyes, myself included lo those many years ago. How can the World Cup be so successful in Las Vegas, of all places, the USET Trails in NJ and CA be hits, and the NHS (with its astounding historical significance) not be able to get it together at all? It's a very sad state of affairs.

The NHJC did not poll it's constituency about its preferences, so it's hard to understand how it acted on behalf of its members. For shame. The AHSA could not possibly have walked into this situation blind--shame on it, too. Why didn't the NHS management team suggest going to arbitration with an outside organization? Isn't that what a group like the American Abritration Association (based, btw, in NYC) is all about?

Perhaps the USET should take over hunter/jumper shows for now, even though it doesn't want to. Or perhaps its time for an entirely new organization to appear. After all, isn't that why the AKC (American Kennel Club) and the UKC co-exist in the dog world?

Ben and Me
Aug. 10, 2000, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
Smiles, Marshall & Sterling finals are at the Duke Benefit in North Carolina in November, I believe. Check out:
http://www.hitsshows.com

then, check out the M & S icon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yay! This means that I can watch them! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hehe, selfish me...

But on a more serious note, I realize that NYC may not be the ideal place to hold a horse show. But, people have worked for years to get to that show, they should've at least announced it before the beginning of the year or held the show and announced that this would be last one.

Will they hold the show at a different location? Or is this it-no show at all?

[This message has been edited by Ben & Me (edited 08-10-2000).]

Doubleeez
Aug. 10, 2000, 03:32 PM
The National Horse Show has just released a press release stating that the Maclay Finals will be held at the Virginia Horse Center in Lexington, VA. The date has not yet been announced. They will also hold the jumper classes, but no hunter classes.
So, in essence,there's not much left of the National to run in anoter venue other than the Garden, unless the benefactors of the saddlebreds, hackneys, etc. band together with a presentation of their own, in a new location. Stay tuned.

woodbern
Aug. 10, 2000, 03:38 PM
Lord, I do pray that no one tries to resurrect the National after this year......at least in the format it has been and the way it has gone down over the years.

The time to send out the National to the happy hunting grounds - forever - was years ago when it was first slated to move out to the Meadowlands. It could have been a glorious sendoff..... one last big blowout for the old girl........ lights, camera, action, balloons, cake, special exhibits, a retrospective of the finest points over the long history of a proud show with a eulogy befitting this legacy.

But no, it limped out to New Jersey, then hobbled back into New York..... and on and on and on.

Tradition is wonderful...... but some things can never be brought back. People seem to be eternally searching for that elusive (read: non-existent) group of miracle working souls who can do CPR on an already dead patient!

It's a difficult place to show, the expenses both to compete as well as produce are staggering. It's been on life support for years...... give it a DNR this go round.

I do hope someone(s) (who is/are not as tired as I am) will put their thinking cap(s) on and help to put together our year end show in an altogether new format. And somewhere else!

P.S. This is just my $.02, so don't you all get exercised..... and also, I am from the deep South, so I know all about historically futile endeavors.... circa 1860-1864! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by woodbern (edited 08-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by woodbern (edited 08-10-2000).]

Goodmudder
Aug. 10, 2000, 03:51 PM
To add fuel to this hopelessly out of control fire, I bring your attention to an article by Nancy Jaffer in the August issue of Horse People, which arrived today.
Entitled, "Accord Reached in Power Struggle Between AHSA and NHJC," she is reporting what is supposedly an effort by Tom Struzzierri to have a "truce." I can't reproduce it in full, altho I will ask the editor to post it. In light of current goings on, I find the following, admittedly out of context quotes, interesting:

"The extent of the problem was illustrated by Struzzier's decision to cancel a year-end council championship show scheduled for November, after the AHSA listed a series of conditions that needed to be met . . . .

. . . With the scaling back of the National Horse Show . . . the NHJC show could take on more importance as a year-end fixture. . . .

. . . noted NHJC vice president Joe Dotoli
believes that in the mind of the average competitor, the show would have been the council's most important achievement."

So, do we need to be rocket scientists to figure out that if somehow the National gets cratered, it makes it easier for the NHJC show agenda next year? Or am I the only one suspicious?

Hattie
Aug. 10, 2000, 04:02 PM
Hmmmm Goodmudder - as I said before - we are going to see some more changes in the next few years, things that we have no control over or any input! What's next? I hope shows, such as the one's that Rick Cram manages, get a lot more support!

Portia
Aug. 10, 2000, 05:03 PM
Linda Allen, I do appreciate your caution. I, and I feel safe in saying others as well, would very much like to know the unvarnished facts, and I sincerely hope they are forthcoming with respect to this event. Given your well-deserved prominance in the H/J community and its governance, you've probably noted that one of the complaints voiced by some in the AHSA/NHJC membership is that the facts are all too difficult to come by. That situation is not unique to the AHSA/NHJC by any means, but still -- if individualts claim to represent a large group of members, the members should have some opportunity for meaningful input and feedback on the activities of their representatives.

I don't begin to understand the politics underlying all of this, although it does have that "political self-interest" smell attached to it. I hope someone can and will explain the underlying factors and motivations to the organization's[s'] membership[s] in the near future.

wtywmn4
Aug. 10, 2000, 06:03 PM
I think Portia, Linda gave us as much insight to what has occured as possible. Now it behoves all of us to raise our voices concerning this. Too many $$$$, and too many people are involved in this. As members we need to be heard.

Bertie
Aug. 10, 2000, 08:16 PM
I'll wait to hear both sides of the story before forming an opinion about who's at fault for this. I feel very sorry for the exhibitors who appear to be being used as pawns in this apparent power struggle.

As some here have said, the show had declined quite a bit. My own opinion is that it needed to be revamped or relocated. The Maclay horses couldn't arrive until the nite before their one and only class... ring time only in the middle of the nite... a postage stamp schooling area, the class starting before dawn.... The time constraints were just too much! A trainer put it this way..."How do you prepare a Maclay rider for the Garden? -- Get them used to sleep deprivation!" (the horse too!)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doubleeez:
The National Horse Show has just released a press release stating that the Maclay Finals will be held at the Virginia Horse Center in Lexington, VA. The date has not yet been announced. They will also hold the jumper classes, but no hunter classes....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doubleeez, where did you find this press release? Is it on the WEB?


[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-10-2000).]

JustaLurker
Aug. 10, 2000, 08:27 PM
I guess you all have noticed that the NHJC has brought their bulletin board down again.

If you ignore us, perhaps we will go away -- NOT.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:10 PM
Ugh! My FATHER was like that! As I grew up, he'd still try to control my life. Then, when I'd start arguing back, he'd just pretend he didn't hear me, even to the point of walking off without a word.

I think ignoring someone's concerns is one of the surest signs of utter disrespect for them. Right now, I'm in a battle with this guy about building a barn under our contract. I have a backup facility ready to go and have left phone messages, email, fax and certified letter with the guy--and gotten no response from him whatsoever.

It's exactly the same thing with the NHJC. When things get too hot for them, when they are challenged or criticized or even just beleagered with questions, they HIDE and IGNORE.

I hate being ignored when I am within my rights and/or when I'm the one footing the bills. I really, really do.

Doubleeez
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:16 PM
I did not actually see the press release. It was read to me over the phone and I was asked to post it on the web which I did here and on the NHJA Cyber-Line at NHJA.com.

Harris
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:23 PM
Doubleez and others, I may be a cynic, but does anyone else not smell a fish when the Maclay finals will now be held at Lexington, the site of the aborted T.S. year end show that was to be held there in November? How much more obvious can it be? That venue will now be introduced to all the northern trainers who've never been there, laying the groundwork for the year end show which WILL be held there in place of the Garden next year. Doesn't take a rocket scientist......

Bertie
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:24 PM
Thanks Doubleeez. I hope we learn more about all of this soon.

It is amazing /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif that there's nothing about this on the websites of the AHSA, NHJC, or NHS. I tried a search of newswire reports but found nothing there either -- If anyone finds more information, please post!

What part of VA is Lexington in? Is that where VMI is? Does the horse park have an indoor arena?

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-10-2000).]

brilyntrip
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:25 PM
Thank you Van Teal!! PWynn, there are rules about shows entries not being a certain % above the prize money awarded and places given with so few allowed to show and classes running together it is beyond ludicrous that this show would be allowed to happen .Yes it may appear that TS has an axe to grind BUT.... Leo does not nor does Sue Ashe !! Why have rules of proceedure if the pres of the AHSA can erase them at will for his own purposes ?He is the first one to say that other shows cannot be held if they don't follow correct proceedure.PUUULLLEEEEZZZ dont you get it SNowbird would nEVER get that kind of exception ,nor would any one else!!!!Please remember guys I am not a prime supporter of TS in any way shape or form ,I am highly critical of him when I think he is wrong ,I just do not in this particular instance.

Goodmudder
Aug. 10, 2000, 09:36 PM
brilyntrip, the point is that this show has ALWAYS had exceptions, so why not approve them this time? And why so late, with no regard for competitors? LOOKS to me like by doing this so late, it virtually ENSURED cancellation. Hope you saw my earlier post on the article in Horse People magazine. And as I interpret Linda Allen's remarks, it would appear that NHJC never allowed the Exec Committee to vote, or for the entire NHJC to be heard.

I would welcome a statement directly from Leo Conroy or any other officers of the NHJC, to hear their opinions and to convince me that my pessimistic speculation is just that. But I see no evidence to the contrary. . . .

sndyhrsjdg
Aug. 10, 2000, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by havaklu:
Bertie -

Where did you find that press release?

This is really a sad situation for those who had achieved the goal of qualifying for the Garden.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I havenÂ’t been privy to all the discussion that has transpired before this decision was made, my understanding is that the National wasn't granted the required number of days to qualify as an AA horse show because the Garden didnÂ’t have the required number of days available. The horse show asked the NHJC and AHSA for a modification in the requirements. The National Hunter Jumper Council voted against modification of the requirements for an AA show. What a shame that this could not have been done in a timelier manner, rather than so close to opening night of this prestigious event. How very sad. for our juniors and all the dedicated sportsmen and women who've had the National in their sites all year and for many; all their lives. According to what I read, Sally Wheeler promises that this is just for this year and that the National will be back in NY next year, an even more spectacular event than before. I sincerely hope so.

Snowbird
Aug. 11, 2000, 12:11 AM
Of all the arguments that I have seen this is without a doubt the most self centered and ego-centric. It is strickly a vengance issue totally unrelated to any logic or concern for the exhibitors.

I am personally embarrassed that a show manager is so personally taking a position which violates the rights of his exhibitors.
It is bad enough that those jumpers who chose to compete in the Marshall Sterling are high and dry for a ride-off after all the time and money and mostly effort spent to try an qualify. The cancellation at our expense of the so-called Finals Horse Show (Why because they were so silly as to think they did not need a business plan. The AHSA would have been in violation of it's charter as a non-profit if they had not requested a projection of how much would come in and how much would go out.)

I could tolerate the lack of a vote as an oversight, I could overlook the lack of publication of meetings and financial reports as carelessness or lazyness, BUT we are now faced with the pure truth and that is that they are unmitigated prefabricators. The facts are out, the National Horse Show is certainly entitled to a C Rating if Snowbird is entitled to a one day C-Rating. The argument that they want to award too much money is the most rediculous excuse I have ever head in the whole of my 70 years.

Now is time for a rebellion...Who do they think they are, by what right do they deprive us of our National Horse Show? This selfish little man who just happens to be President of the NHJC Board of Governors would see us all on our knees to his self-importance. Well, I have never advocated that anyone ever boycott any shows. I have always been in favor of free enterprise and will always be willing to compete under the rules. But, this is a different situation and I agree with the poster who said that you all should let your feet do the walking and find other shows at which you can compete

Good for you Sally Wheeler, I'm very grateful that you held your ground. If these people cannot understand the logic, and do not have the integrity, they do not deserve to show at the National Horse Show. It's their pockets that will be empty. If you do ever have the hunters back I hope that you will accept anyone who was not on the Board of Governors of the NHJC in the year 2000. They should be perpetually eliminated by virtue of a Conflict of Interest for their behavior this year and the damage to the exhibitors.

Darkwave
Aug. 11, 2000, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertie:
What part of VA is Lexington in? Is that where VMI is? Does the horse park have an indoor arena?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lexington is in the Southwestern region of Virginia. It's off of I-81. It's been a while since I've been there, but I think it's about a half-hour south of I-64 and an hour north of Roanoke. Yes, it's where VMI (as well as Washington and Lee)is located. And yes, the horse park does have a nice indoor ring. It's a beautiful facility...but of course, it's not the Garden.

Bertie
Aug. 11, 2000, 08:56 AM
Thanks Darkwave. That IS the same Lexington I was thinking of. It's such a scenic, beautiful, peaceful area. The Shenandoah Valley is certainly a contrast with the excitement of NYC.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 08-11-2000).]

brilyntrip
Aug. 11, 2000, 09:14 AM
Well ,I have to agree with you guys on a few things why were these problems faced at this late date ?I believe that the facilities for NHS are contracted several years in advance so , where were the brains when they found out the show was only running for three days???It is possible that this information was witheld until the last possible moment to force NHJC members to aquiesce(sp?)It is possible that NHJC with its disagreements with AHSA hierarchy used this as a slap in the face but in all honesty I think NHJC is right. Certainly most of the board of nhjc would show no matter what if they felt it was valid ,the expense was not a problem but somewhere somewhere out there the buck has to stop let's say HERE.THis is the final straw,no more special exceptions no more but "Its the National"I know that so many have worked towards qualifying and everyone wants go watch but it is no longer what we a a great all consider the great finale to the end of the season!!!Fine hold the show as a non AHSA show if its THE GARDEN where you want to ride ride there win all that money .BUt why should winners be recieving points for end of the year when they are not competing on the same playing field as every other show with the same rating.If theNational has been cancelled this year it is a shame but maybe it will give the directors of the show a little time to regroup and prepare for next yr!!

Twister
Aug. 11, 2000, 09:57 AM
Apparently, the issue is not yet over as I have heard another conference call is scheduled for early next week.
Interestingly, Sally Wheeler's horses are continuing to show at Culpeper next week, as are the horses of plenty of trainers who are appalled at the above situation. Hey you guys!!! Vote with your wallet!

[This message has been edited by Erin (edited 08-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Twister (edited 08-11-2000).]

AdultHunterRider
Aug. 11, 2000, 10:10 AM
This whole situation just stinks! My heart goes out to all of those who spent all year qualifying and now have no show. I took a year and qualified for indoors (not the National) - it is not only time consuming but expensive. Not all of the people qualifying have tons of money and from experience alot of people sacrifice to meet that goal.

I agree with Twister, vote with your money. Boycott Tom S. and all of the HITS shows. The only way to get to that type of person is through the pocketbook. Not only has he screwed up the Marshall & Sterling this year but now the NHS also.

Erin
Aug. 11, 2000, 10:50 AM
Folks, please... I don't want to read a lot of wild speculation about what's going on "behind the scenes." Hearsay does not belong in a public forum. Remember, don't make any assertions about supposed facts unless they've been published or proven, please.

As usual, we just have to be a little bit patient and wait for the facts. Thanks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CTT
Aug. 11, 2000, 02:04 PM
I woke up this mornign to find an FYI on my email and when I read it my reaction was its only 2 and a half months away and they cancled the hunter portion of the NHS. Then what is the point of the NHS this year if the hunters who were qualifieng are not their. This is more of a hunter show than anything. I first thaught for a moment of all the riders who are getting the news that they will not be able to show at this show this year. Think of all the upset pony riders and JR riders. Then I thaught about all of the parents who put out so much money so that their little ones could do this show. Not to mention the hard working adults that budgeted for this show. Now there will be many asked questions that these trainers will half to answer and the amount of reasons and info just is not enough to give the numerous answers.


Just a quick question does the AHSA have a human resource reasearcher ( you know someone wo reaearches info and finds out what people want) they realy need someone cause this is getting rediculous.


Every time I pick up a magazine or surf the internet Its AHSA this and that.

What are our options here. Where do the members (children and adults) stand?

[This message has been edited by CTT (edited 08-11-2000).]

Janet
Aug. 11, 2000, 02:48 PM
CTT,
It doesn't take away from the rest of your post, but there haven't been ponies at "The Garden" in NYC in a LONG time (over 20 years).

Personally, I think that was one of the stupidest marketing decisions they have made.

The average non-riding spectator can't tell the diffenence between a "Junior Working Hunter" and "First Year Green Working Humnter", but they can certainly tell the difference between a "Small Pony Hunter" and a "Working Hunter". The ponies are good entertainment!!

pwynnnorman
Aug. 11, 2000, 03:04 PM
You know, I really like the Lexington facility. It has easy access, its big, high and dry, developed with a lot of foresight and planning, etc., etc. I even like its central location...

But there ARE conflicts of interest abounding. That can't be denied, even if those involved weren't really acting to secure/protect their interests. That's why the leadership needs to find a way to open itself up to OTHER KINDS OF PARTICIPANTS. There are too many show managers and too few exhibitors making decisions about the sport and the directions it takes.

Canter
Aug. 11, 2000, 03:19 PM
Janet's post reminded me of another tragedy. Regardless of whether the entire show has been cancelled or just the Hunters, either way a goodwill/educational opportunity for this sport has been taken away. Because this show was held downtown in a major city, although a pain for competitors, it was an opportunity for non-riders and those without transportation to experience something we all take for granted. Not only was the NHS a great show steeped in tradition, it was a wonderful PR opportunity for our sport...allowing the general public a live peek at what has become an elitist sport. For some kids, it was an event that they looked forward to attending every year and to others it was a wake up call to bug Mommy & Daddy for riding lessons.
With either less showing days or a full cancellation, I think it's a real shame to hear that yet again, the horse world has been made less accessable to people outside of our sport. How can we complain about lack of public support in this sport when we do nothing to encourage their participation, even if their participation means taking the subway and buying a ticket?
In downtown Toronto we have the Royal Winter Fair and Horse Show. Every year I hold my breath, hoping that the show isn't cancelled because of bureaucratic intervention, date conflicts with another event or the wingeing of competitors who don't want to drive downtown. It's expensive, it's a physically draining experience, but when you see the look of wonder on someone's face who has never seen a horse up close, a horse show takes on a significance that you never thought was possible.

CTT
Aug. 11, 2000, 03:36 PM
Sory i compleatly forgot that they are not there anymore. OOPs I feel dumb. But still at anyrate think of all the riders who dreamed of this year and at the same time isn't the milenium year supost to be big and grand? instead this year for many has been nothing but pain and stress. I see alot of peoeople just not thinking anymore in our associations. What is there going to be for our future to look foward to?

brilyntrip
Aug. 11, 2000, 04:34 PM
Wait just one minute why is it TS that is at fault here?You can't tell me that the presof NHS didnt know that the show was going to be held on three days a long time ago why wait till now??? why wait sooo long to face the music??? GO ahead boycott HITS it won't keep those shows from running.BUt I think its the board of NHS that has some questions to answer and by the way AS OF TODAY at least three highly influential board members did not know the show had been CANCeLLED!

ccoronios
Aug. 11, 2000, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brilyntrip:
BUt I think its the board of NHS that has some questions to answer and by the way AS OF TODAY at least three highly influential board members did not know the show had been CANCeLLED!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is insane!!! Have we gone through the Looking Glass???? AHSA & Co. in Blunderland

Snowbird
Aug. 12, 2000, 12:42 AM
Just a personal opinion, the National Horse Show has never complied with the rules in the 75 year history of the show I doubt there was one year when it lived up to the basic rules we all have to live by and everyone knew it.

It's true Snowbird would never be granted an exception. Lot's of other shows have had that experience, we never bothered to ask. So what, I don't run a show at Madison Square Garden that is the goal of every kid's dream.

The difference is the fact that the National Horse Show is a qualifying show it is not an OPEN Show. Only a bunch of first graders who never came in the class room wouldn't understand that and have rules for shows where the entries are limited and the available slots are earned by activity all year. Maybe, that's our next Rule Change Proposal, one for the qualifying shows. With only 3 weeks left in the year, what the heck difference do the points make anyway. By then, they all know who has horse of the year.

I don't see how the points should count at all from any show which requires a certain level before you enter. When we started the Zone 2 Horse Show it was not Rated by the AHSA, and yet the AHSA awarded some new class of "special bonus points". That was an exception to the rules that made sense. There is an exception to the rules that if the weather is inclement an A Rated Division can run on one day. There is no reason why the show could not have been C-Rated, all the shows I know that are C-Rated run on one day.

So now the violation is that they "as the National Horse Show" could not offer $120,000 in prize money to the hunters. They could offer it to the jumpers,and they could be recognized because the Jumper Divisions are not rated. So, instead of changing the rules to something fair, they punish the very people who participate.

Well, I commend Sallie Wheeler, the only level head there. She resigned from the Hunter Committee when it was clear they would not support the "Hunter Incentive Committee" whose mission was to make this sport available to everybody. As Chairman of the National Horse Show which is a private corporation and belongs to no one she has made the decision that, if the Hunter people for whom this show was being held, to accomodate their big fat egos couldn't compromise because "personalities were more important" there will be no hunters.

Our National Horse Show does not belong to anyone, it's our show and I am sure that Sallie Wheeler sees it that way. I do not believe that the NHJC should have the right to make a decision without polling or surveying the members of their association whom they represent. I am sorry for all those who will miss the opportunity to know how wonderful it feels to ride in the Garden.

We did almost 20 years at the Garden, yes! we lunged on the sidwalk in front of the Forum entrance. Yes! it was dark and it was cold. Yes! it was a shock for both horse and rider to have only a few minutes to change from the cold dark street that to the Garden floor. But, everyone suffered the same deprivation it was equal.

But there is nothing more exciting for a young rider that having one minute in the limelight, even if the seats are empty at 3 AM, that's why it left the Meadowlands. Riding at the Garden is part of the "DREAM". It is the dream that makes this industry click and keep going.

Let's be realistic if there are only 2% of the exhibitors who even consider getting there, now you can bet there will only be half. Who will gain but the big extravaganza horses shows who have managed to pull the National down to their level. You know who they are.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-12-2000).]

Bertie
Aug. 12, 2000, 01:02 AM
It's sad to see it end this way. And pulling the plug with no warning at this point in the season is unforgivable. But it's a wake up call to look ahead and begin a new tradition. There are other cities with better facilities. What about all the Maclay riders who never made it to the Garden because of its space limitations? Hunters, too...there were only going to be 12 in each division. What about pony hunters? They've been left out for years.

At least, as Ralph Caristo said in an interview on the Towerheads site, "if they do figure out the Maclay -- there should be NO REGIONALS!”

Doubleeez
Aug. 12, 2000, 11:30 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It has now been five days since this unfortunate happening with the NHS became public knowledge. We have heard from the representatives of the NHS but we are yet to hear from a spokesperson for the Council. Many opinions are being formed without hearing both sides of the story. Let us hope that the Council will make known their reasoning for their recent actions very soon.

Goodmudder
Aug. 12, 2000, 12:43 PM
Believe me, Doubleez, I think most of us would definitely WELCOME word from those of us in your organization! Let's have it!

Doubleeez
Aug. 12, 2000, 02:07 PM
Goodmudder, you are http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif . You are mixing up the Council of the AHSA with the National Hunter & Jumper Association , an independent equestrian organization. You seem to feel that I am writing as a representative of the Council. I AM NOT. I am the Secretary/Treasurer of the NHJA and as such was asked to post the news about the NHS. I am as concerned as you are that after five days we have had no statement from the Council regarding their actions.

Goodmudder
Aug. 12, 2000, 02:32 PM
Doubleez, I apologize! I know full well the difference, just did not pay attention. So I think we're all on the same wavelength. I'd like to hear as much as you would - and I pesonally would like to see individual statements from some members of the Council, not just press releases. Of course, that goes for hearing from the AHSA, too!

Snowbird
Aug. 12, 2000, 07:10 PM
The Hunter/Jumper Council has always chosen to ignore the members. If we don't agree with them then they just shut off and go their own way. Just as they shut down their BB. Yet, we have two paid employees who are supposed to be in charge of communication.

The point is that this is not a surprise last minute horse show without any experience. This show is older than everyone on the Hunter/Jumper Council.

It is understandable that the Garden wants shows that bring in an audience. The Hunter/Jumper Council has done nothing to bring in an audience. The National has stood by itself asking nothing more than approval from the AHSA. It has passified the egos of those determined to be the ones to compete there.

The wake-up call should be two-fold, the Hunter/Jumper Council not only does not represent us, it doesn't care anything about all the children (young and old) who have the dream and accepted the challenge to try an qualify. Those who don't make it want to see the ones who do.

The second part is that we should do better in supporting the show by soliciting spectators for it. Television will not cover a show run in an empty stadium. And arenas are businesses, they won't want our shows if we won't support them.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-12-2000).]

Doubleeez
Aug. 12, 2000, 08:43 PM
A response from the NHJC is now up on their website, NJHC.org. Click on News and then NHJC News. This is in answer to the NHS press release issued several days ago explaining the cancelation of the hunters
for the year 2000.
Now both sides have spoken and we are in a better position to evaluate the statements and form an educated opinion on the subject.

Erin
Aug. 12, 2000, 09:40 PM
Here's a direct link to the NHJC press release:

http://www.nhjc.org/ann081200a.htm

Laura Reed
Aug. 12, 2000, 10:02 PM
OK, I think I’m almost over the initial shock, my splitting headache is not as splitting and I’m finished with the three day “A” show I just stewarded with a learner steward by my side. So, the way I read it, from a STRICTLY RULES POINT OF VIEW, there is no reason whatsoever for the National not to be held at Madison Square Garden November 3-5.

As a “C” rated regular member show, the National may hold the hunter division on one day and may offer any amount of prize money. There is no restriction regarding prize money for the jumper division as well. I can find nothing in the current AHSA Rule Book that would prohibit the National Horse Show from running as a Regular Member. If I have missed something, please, please, someone tell me the article number.

The requirements for recognition as a “C” show rather than an “A” (as originally applied for) would be an amendment to the date application for the 2000 show. I would re-submit the date application. Most likely, permission would have to be received from the competition management(s) of other shows within a certain proximity to 31st and 33rd streets between seventh and eighth avenues.

Assuming any show(s) that are within the mileage restrictions for a “C” to a “C” give permission to the National Horse Show to run “against” them at The Garden, the SHOW COULD GO ON as planned.

It seems simple enough to me. Am I missing something? No need to ask the AHSA Executive Committee to consider a presidential modification. No need to ask the NHJC’s “permission.” Just amend the 2000 and 2001 (I would think) application(s) and drop to a good old “C” rated horse show, (remember those?) in The Garden, in the fall, with childhood dreams coming true. What’s wrong with that?

Bertie
Aug. 12, 2000, 10:44 PM
Thank you Laura. I hope you're right, and you probably are. If so, why did the situation degenerate to where it is now?

Maybe this quote from Sallie Wheeler sheds some light..."I would never dream of asking favors of people who don't think that the
exhibitors they represent would support the format we worked out, or who believe that the AHSA should not approve it."

Maybe Mrs. Wheeler needs to hear that the exhibitors the NHJC is intended to represent DO want the show to go on, shortened format and all.

Snowbird
Aug. 13, 2000, 12:32 AM
Well Bertie that's a good idea. I'll bet if nothing else she would be grateful to hear how much we all appreciate all the hard work and money she has put into giving us back the National Horse Show at the Garden.

Laura, I have been told that somewhere there is a rule or an interpretation of the rule that has caused some show managers to get fined for paying out too much money.

Now isn't that a kick? Here we've spent hours talking about the "cheap" show managers who try to overcharge exhibitors and then not pay out the money. And, the rules are interpreted to mean that you get fined if you pay out too much money.

I guess you're such a big crook if you offer too much money that the AHSA won't recognize the show.

Laura, I don't know for sure but I think the little pot hole they're using is that over $18,000 is a AA Show, and a AA needs 5 days.
So according to the "members of menza" that means that you can't give out $10,000 in a class if your show is only C Rated. I bet it's predicated on Article 215. They have interpreted that a Local Show cannot offer more than $500, because the dues are based on that.

But, here' the fallacy of their logic, that chart includes jumper money as well as hunter money. They are not separated. Therefore at a C Show I might offer $3000 in Prize money for Jumpers, and I'm not offering any money in the C-Rated Hunter Divisions. That doesn't change my rating. I might also offer a $1000 stake class for hunters, now that's $4000. That doesn't change my rating.

So then how much is too much? Or isn't it very clear that the rules are just being interpreted that way because the Hunter/Jumper Council couldn't have their National Horse Show so now these little boys just sit there and say, well if I can't have mine, you can't have yours!

Gee! What a relief, now I can tell my exhibitors that I really wanted to offer a lot of money to get people in the AHSA Divisions but thanks to the Hunter/Jumper Council I'm not allowed to give them more money. That makes so much sense to someone.

Do you think anyone will buy that for not paying out the money for NAL? I don't think so.

It's like passing a law against a free lunch.
STUPID--STUPID--STUPID.

And they think we're dumb.

Laura Reed
Aug. 13, 2000, 12:49 AM
OK Vikki, I guess we are just a bunch of dummies, right? Once again, I ask someone to point me to the article that clearly states or at least makes some attempt at stating that a three day horse show, with all the hunter sections held in one day, offering lots and lost of $$$$, isn't C rated.

Snowbird
Aug. 13, 2000, 01:01 PM
Is it Article 215 that they're using or is there another one I didn't find?

Certainly, hasnt been much debate about it before this. I never knew that it was against the rules to offer too much money. I can't imagine the logic for that.

LindaAllen
Aug. 13, 2000, 04:25 PM
The rules do preclude a show offering a rating that does not meet the requirements for that rating (minimum and maximums. This has been the case for a long time for whatever reason seemed to prevail when it was put into the book.

I personally know of a show that did put more money into hunter sections than their rating allowed and was brought before the Hearing Committee for violation of the rules when they refused to tell competitors at the show that the money wouldn't be given after all. Please be aware that this incident happened at a California show and it was well before the current 'administration' was elected -- as I said the rule has been in there for quite some time. This is the reason that the NHS Executive Director requested the specific modifications that would allow 'recognition' with the reduced/modified schedule and the amount of prize money, but without 'rating' (ie points toward HOTY awards)for the hunter sections offered.

Hope this help clarify an admittedly complicated situation.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 13, 2000, 06:29 PM
So, according to RS: "...the request for a modification arose from the fact that the hunter divisions were held over too few days to qualify as an "A" rated hunter division. On the other hand, the proposed prize money exceeded the limit for any other rating."

So, as Snowbird and Laura have been exploring, it seems to be that it was the prize money that did it. And I agree with Snowbird: it's weird that offering TOO MUCH would cause some people to argue against it. Who would it hurt to offer more money? Maybe I'm missing something, but from the NHJC press release, it doesn't sound like the rating or the points were that much of an issue. Just the prize money? I just can't figure out why. If you have money to offer, what difference does it make if you offer it through a lottery or through a bunch of classes? Would money won change anything in terms of awards or qualifying or something? I can't think so. So why is it such a big deal?

PONYPULR
Aug. 13, 2000, 09:54 PM
Laura-
So now, with the cancelling of the NHS, will those dates be available for this year to someone?? And I realize that there is no place like the Garden, but Mrs. Wheeler leads us to believe that this is all temporary. So, to keep the date, could the show not be held elsewhere?

Snowbird
Aug. 13, 2000, 11:41 PM
I can understand a show which offers too much money and then refuses to pay it out being sancyioned because that is pure misrepresentation.

I cannot understand a show that offers a lot of money and will pay it out having a problem. If it were my show I would not even seek a modification. Just file an ammendment to the application and go for a C Rating.

Unless, there is someone out there who knows what rule it is, I can not understand the whole situation. I certainly can understand why Sallie Wheeler felt misused, I can understand why Alan Balch felt he should not express an opinion or manipulate the situation. I cannot understand

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>“Working with AHSA staff and legal counsel on the problems this presented in the AHSA rules, we
prepared a proposal for the AHSA Executive Committee. We proposed that the National be AHSA
recognized, as a Local Competition, but that would have required modifications of the rules for the
extraordinary circumstances we are facing. For example, a Local show cannot offer prize money over
$500. We also proposed that the exhibitors compete without being awarded AHSA points in the Hunter
division, owing to the condensed schedule. In addition, we suggested that the Under Saddle classes
be combined into a special event format, which would have been another variation of the rules.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At any C Show you are permitted to combine the Junior/Amateur and the Green/Regular.

Did anyone consider a C Rating? Where exactly are these maximums listed in the Rule Book. Surely, I wouldn't want to offend someone by offering too much money at my shows.

To me it looks very much as if Tom Struzzeri was playing upmanship, I cancelled my National Show, now you cancel yours. Now, doesn't that sound like all the anti-exhibitor stuff that people have been posting out here about HITS.

I think it would have been very special that a prestigious show could go C Rated. It would have made us all feel less left out.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-13-2000).]

Portia
Aug. 14, 2000, 04:30 PM
Here's the closest I could come to an express statement of the prize money limitation for lower rated shows (other than for local member competitions, which does have an express $500 maximum prize money limitation per Art. 339(1) --

Rule XIII, Chapter I, Article 1302(1): "A division or section rating or classification is determined from the number of classes, the amount of cash premiums offered in these classes and the holding of required classes in certain divisions. A competition may not offer the minimum requirements for a rating higher than the rating approved by the AHSA. See Ratings Charts." (emphasis added).

Why they can't just say, a competition may not offer more than the stated maximum of prize money," I don't know -- but then anyone who has been around these boards for awhile knows how I feel about the incredibly inept organization of the #%*@ AHSA Rules.

My admittedly cynical guess is that the reason for the money restriction goes back to the same roots as our old friend the mileage rule -- protection of existing shows, for better or worse. Someone could offer a very nicely run "C" show over 3 days with lots of prize money, which could attract a great many of the horses, riders, and trainers away from a 5-day "A" show by offering the prospect of convenience and money rather than points.


[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 08-14-2000).]

DMK
Aug. 14, 2000, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Why they can't just say, a competition may not offer more than the stated maximum of prize money,"

My admittedly cynical guess is that the reason for the money restriction (which I can't find clearly stated in the goes back to the same roots as our old friend the mileage rule -- protection of existing shows, for better or worse.

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 08-14-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmm... do you think the cryptic wording might have something to do with the fact it was drafted by lawyers? Naaahhhhh....

(just messin' with your mind, Portia!)

As for your admittedly cynical view, I think it is probably an admittedly realistic view of the cronyism that has protected a lot of these shows. It needs to go the way of the dinosaur!

pwynnnorman
Aug. 14, 2000, 04:59 PM
Portia, Grrreeat point! Now THAT makes sense! More protectionism. I wonder if someone would give us a straight answer about that. IS that the "reason why?" (And if it ISN'T, what IS?)

That's what frustrates me the most about this industry, from the judging through the rules and administration--it's all chock-a-block, with few if any people knowing why they are doing what they are doing, unless it is for their vested interests. Many organizations voluntarily pursue a "review" of their rules, policies and standards--it's the only way to stay current and adapt to a changing environment.

You know, I think that's the biggest problem at AHSA and NHJC--and maybe the entire industry. There's just too much "why as why"-ing that goes on. As long as so-and-so is happy, no one questions things until so-and-so becomes unhappy, then they only question the ONE thing that caused it!

It's a very small minded and extremely amateur organization that is unable to address the big picture. Too busy to notice how the forest is growing because they are so consumed by...by what? Feeding the redwoods while stomping on the saplings...or something.

Janet
Aug. 14, 2000, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Here's the closest I could come to an express statement of the prize money limitation for lower rated shows (other than for local member competitions, which does have an express $500 maximum prize money limitation per Art. 339(1) --

Rule XIII, Chapter I, Article 1302(1): "A division or section rating or classification is determined from the number of classes, the amount of cash premiums offered in these classes and the holding of required classes in certain divisions. A competition may not offer the minimum requirements for a rating higher than the rating approved by the AHSA. See Ratings Charts." (emphasis added).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah but...
The "minimum requirements" are money AND number of days AND number of classes (and probably some other things as well).

I (as a non-lawyer, but I just spent all day in court) would interpret to mean that if I offerred "A" prize money, AND ran over 5 days, AND ran 4 (or whatever the number is) classes per division, then I couldn't be a C show.

If your conjectured interpretation is correct, then a C show would not be allowed to run over 5 days. Is that the case?

Snowbird
Aug. 14, 2000, 07:41 PM
The National
1. I would guess would be one of the shows designated as protected if so then there would be no reason for them not to offer tons of money.

2. Any C Rated Show can run on one day with combined divisions as offered by the National. SO IF, the only modification was to offer "too much" cash, and this is a protected show, why in the world would anyone say NO?

3. The National, like Devon, Harrisburg etc. is not an open show. It would not and could not accept tons of entries that would jeopardize any show. As a qualifying show the entries are severely limited and in my humble opinion does not qualify the same way that an OPEN Show would be structured.

Now, when Zone 2 faced a problem similarly for their qualifying Zone Finals the AHSA recognized them for the legal reasons mentioned by the News Release, and then awarded the riders bonus "Special Points" since it was run in October and there were almost 2 months to the end of the year. OH! YES! Jane Clark was the President then.

So the question is really WHY suddenly the National was not important enough to grant what Zone 2 required? This President excluded himself and asked for the kind of special changes that had always been granted when needed by past President Jane Clark.

What has changed? Alan Balch has been a Director for years, I have a copy of Horse Show from 1975 when he was on the Planning Committee the year the AHSA Incorporated. The National Horse Show has been around over a hundred years, Sallie Wheeler was active in defended the rights of the members for at least the 30 years I've been in the AHSA.

What is new is the NHJC, what is new is the current President of the NHJC who has only been President of the NHJC for less than a year. What is new is that the President of the NHJC has only been on the Zone Committee for a couple of years.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to figure out where the sand in the gears comes from.


[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 08-14-2000).]