"Flatwork" v. "dressage"... Are hunters the demise of American Show Jumping?

[rileyt]

Whew! Thought that would get your attention! OK. Really not trying to start a fight, but provoke a good discussion. As some of you may know, I just returned from riding in Germany, and I saw lots of things there that made me think. Here is one. Recently, I think, despite good horses and good riders, the US has been only mildly successful in International Show Jumping. The Germans, on the other hand, have done quite well. I had a chance to attend a smallish show, and watched several jumper classes. Even in the 3 foot divisions, I saw almost NONE of the scary riding I see at the lower level A jumper shows here. The horses were 99% warmbloods. And went almost EXCLUSIVELY in SNAFFLES. I saw ONE gag, and ONE pelham the entire day. One thing I noticed... all of these competitors, even at the lower divisions... could have ridden a solid 1st level dressage test in a heartbeat. The horses went in much more of a frame, were far more engaged, and the riders rode more vertically and less forward than here. There is no "hunter" division in Germany. When the riders warmed up, they did "dressage"... in a first or second level frame. Now, I know some very good hunter and jumper riders whose "flatwork" really is "dressage". But I know far more whose "flatwork" consists of walk-trot-canter in a hunter frame... with an occasional smaller circle, or turn on the forehand, or shoulder-in. I'm just wondering if there's a connection.

Do Germans learn how to engage a horse's hind end and RIDE the horse better than us?

Is it because they are taught "dressage"? Instead of aimlessly cantering circles and calling it flatwork?

Is the hunter "frame" (a longer, lower, more forward moving gait) and style a detriment when our hunter riders switch over to jumpers?

Thoughts?

Please don't blast me for picking on hunters... I think they have their place, and no one would fox hunt in a second-level dressage frame! But I'm wondering if the fact that most of the country starts with hunters ends up hurting us when they try to transition to jumpers.

[rileyt]

Whew! Thought that would get your attention! OK. Really not trying to start a fight, but provoke a good discussion. As some of you may know, I just returned from riding in Germany, and I saw lots of things there that made me think. Here is one. Recently, I think, despite good horses and good riders, the US has been only mildly successful in International Show Jumping. The Germans, on the other hand, have done quite well. I had a chance to attend a smallish show, and watched several jumper classes. Even in the 3 foot divisions, I saw almost NONE of the scary riding I see at the lower level A jumper shows here. The horses were 99% warmbloods. And went almost EXCLUSIVELY in SNAFFLES. I saw ONE gag, and ONE pelham the entire day. One thing I noticed... all of these competitors, even at the lower divisions... could have ridden a solid 1st level dressage test in a heartbeat. The horses went in much more of a frame, were far more engaged, and the riders rode more vertically and less forward than here. There is no "hunter" division in Germany. When the riders warmed up, they did "dressage"... in a first or second level frame. Now, I know some very good hunter and jumper riders whose "flatwork" really is "dressage". But I know far more whose "flatwork" consists of walk-trot-canter in a hunter frame... with an occasional smaller circle, or turn on the forehand, or shoulder-in. I'm just wondering if there's a connection.

Do Germans learn how to engage a horse's hind end and RIDE the horse better than us?

Is it because they are taught "dressage"? Instead of aimlessly cantering circles and calling it flatwork?

Is the hunter "frame" (a longer, lower, more forward moving gait) and style a detriment when our hunter riders switch over to jumpers?

Thoughts?

Please don't blast me for picking on hunters... I think they have their place, and no one would fox hunt in a second-level dressage frame! But I'm wondering if the fact that most of the country starts with hunters ends up hurting us when they try to transition to jumpers.

[JustFive]

Uh, we ride our 2nd and 3rd level horses in a dressage frame for at least a little while at the beginning of a hunt.

[kmoffitt]

Those of us who are proponents of dressage have always said it is the basis for all good riding. If you can keep your horse rounded, balanced, and rated (using collections and extensions), what better way to approach a jump and get over it safely? Makes sense to me!

[DMK]

or is it just possible that anyone or his mother can hang up a shingle and say they are a "trainer"? And that same person can be in charge of passing on his or her craft (such as it is) to a whole generation of students... And if said trainer is awfully good at tuning on a made horse or piloting it around but never actually "creates" the work of art, then obviously he/she is limited in what they can teach their students.

I think good riding is good riding - no reason why riding hunters in and of itself means you aren't prepped to ride jumpers. Now if you don't have a clue how to engage a horse and understand how and when to do it, that may be a different story.

[C-Urchn]

In the U.S.-
1. Owners rarely buy horses so somebody else (pro) can compete. Therefore the primo horses might spent their careers in lower divisions.
2. There are no government subsidies for raising horses.
3. Horses are seen as an elitist pasttime (not a sport).
4. There are too many other distractions - pro sports, computers, TV, movies - all very accessible to the public.
5. Riders are not "forced" to move up to higher levels. An Olympic-level rider might compete against amateur or junior riders at some competitions.

thoughts for now
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[PMJ]

Just wondering

"we ride our 2nd and 3rd level horses in a dressage frame"

Is the outline what you are talking about or true collection where the horse is carrying his weight on the hind end? What level--dressage--are you talking about? Just wondering

[Janet]

I think it depends on the trainer.

While you weere away, I took a clinic with GM, who is certainly representative of good .US hunter/jumper trainers.

His comments to me were closer to my dressage instructor's comments than any other jumping intructor I have had.

He was telling several others to make sure the horse was in front of the leg.

He certainly EXPECTED people to know how to do a correct shoulder in ("NOT neck-in. NOT indirect rein").

I think it has more to do with the variation in quality of the trainers. There are plenty of hunter, and even jumper trainers out there who teach "neck-in" with an indirect rein and THINK it is shoulder in.

[lilblackhorse]

I am not a follower of most HJ stuff, but as an eventer, I jump and do dressage. I am now at a new barn, with some jumper folks. Here is what happened yesterday in my shared dressage lesson with one...
I rode first-getting my horse back into work after almost 3 months off. Worked mainly on getting him forward and relaxing thru the neck and poll to come up under himself. Jumper person watched.

Then jumper gal lunged her horse-gorgeous tall lanky WB I guess. Now, bear in mind she jumps this horse over 4 feet...yet, the knowledge of basic flatwork wasn't really there. New trainer watched as she lunged, and rider/lunger didn't know what a connected horse looked like on the lunge (he was putzing, not using himself at all)....I found this intriguing. A horse, in order to jump big fences, needs to be engaged and have strong hindquarters to be able to thrust. It was just an observation, but I truly felt that not knowing these basic pieces of true dressage (not flatwork-which is putzing w/o jumping?), it will impede future success. I think that is one of the reasons that event horses do well, in that they can negotiate an upper level dressage test, so thus have the ability to use that when jumping. Just a thought...

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[Chanda]

I don't think the reason we are not doing quite as well as the Germans in show jumping is because we have hunters. I don't think you can really compare our hunters with German jumpers. I would assume that most of our jumper riders don't come straight from the hunter ring.

The way most hunters are ridden (and won with) is pretty far from a dressage frame. If you trained your hunter to be a great lower level dressage horse you would loose the hunter look and way of going for the show ring. Sure, work on a bit of dressage with your hunter but if you train a hunter too much he will not be a hunter anymore, he will be a dressage horse.

As for jumpers, I believe that you can never do to much dressage. I love the way I see most German riders ride the jumpers. I would love to see more Americans ride like this. The nice snaffle and a strong powerful rhythm and a rocket-like jump, that is how I want my horse to go. How do I find someone to help me train my horse to go like that? I am not sure.

Anyway, I have no idea what I am saying here except that I want to ride my horse like a German but without hunting down Marcus Beerbaum with fistfulls of cash, it may never happen.

[Flash44]

When someone is spending megabucks to go to big shows, they (eventually) expect results. How does the trainer get the results? Especially in the hunters....
-lunging lunging lunging lunging
-drugs
-trainer rides horse until horse is perfect, then puts student up

You have to let the students take their licks, or they will never learn to solve the problems. They will just become really pretty passengers.

Bring back the outside courses!

The hunters DO encourage sit there and do nothing riding, at least at the lower levels. However, the riders should be encouraged to move forward once they are out of the novice divisions. Hunters should be the BASIS for jumpers. You want to move forward rhythmically and flow around a jumper course, not yank and kick.

Additionally, riders are athletes, and have to control animals weighing 10 times as much that are immensely stronger. Yet how many youngsters are out there TRAINING like an athlete? You need a lot of strength throughout your entire body to control an enthusiastic horse on a jumper course. Some riders have the trainer ride the horse all week, then meet them at the showgrounds. The horse is going great, but what has the rider learned?

The horse show world has evolved into a business where many of the riders have very little to do with the barn work and basic care of the horse. The trainers want the horses on full care, and the riders who can afford to do the A circuit can usually afford to pay someone else to do a lot of the daily care. It's a cycle.

I usually only jump my horse in lessons. His issues are not jumping issues, they are getting to the jump balanced and straight issues. Jumping won't solve them.

Use the Force.

[Robby Johnson]

because it denotes something solid and "boxed-in." A horse should be ridden from behind, period. When you know where he's putting his feet - and when you can place his feet there via riding - your horse will automatically be engaging his hocks, lifting his back, and stretching into the bridle. Much easier said that done!!!!

In America, where it's all about the ribbon, I do think that many of the hunters are quick to take a shortcut to get to the winner's circle. Most of them have never worked a gymnastic line to develop their horses, and most have no idea what to do to help their horse travel better. I agree with DMK that the "trainer-saturated" market is responsible for producing the crike that's out there.

For the big jumpers, in America it's usually always about getting over the jump, not getting around the course in a rhythm. This is not a broad statement for all of the jumpers in America.

For example, Anne Kursinski (surprise surpise, a GM product) does a stellar job of doing this (riding a course in a rhythm). I could watch that woman ride for hours. Chris Kapler, a GM product, does a stellar job of doing this. I could watch that man ride for hours. Ray Texel, a GM product, does a stellar job of doing this. I could watch that man ride for hours. You get my point.

I definitely think we've got it in place. I also think our geographic vastness - which allows sub-cultures to develop rapidly - plays a part in how American riders differ so greatly.

Robby

[Janet]

For an indication of what at least some jumper trainers SEEM to think is the appropriate use of dressage/flatwork, check out his thread Help needed (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=502099205&m=1053088133)

[Ruby G. Weber]

Basic dressage is essential for all disciplines. If a horse will not go forward and straight and slow down easily, that horse will ultimately not be a winner.

Correct flying changes can make the difference between first and fifth in the hunters. Although in hunters, the frame is longer and lower, if the balance is not there, neither is the winning performance.

In jumpers it is probably more important to work in some of the higher school movements in terms of physical development.

[JumpItHighPie]

Doesn't this

go beyond Germany having better jumpers than here in that States? I think the way Europeans, in general, train/treat their horses in a fashion that the US should start following.

*Jenno*
"The man who makes no mistakes lacks boldness and the spirit of adventure. He is the one who never tries anything. His is the brake on the wheel of progress. And yet it cannot be truly said he makes no mistakes, because his biggest mistake is the very fact that he tries nothing, does nothing, except criticize those who do things." David S.
http://hometown.aol.com/pithegr8t

[Louise]

Well, I was reading all through this thread, trying to phrase my reply, only to find that Flash44 had said it all, and said it better. Thanks Flash!

[lilblackhorse]

hit the nail on the head-the rhythm and balance needed to ride a course (on any type of horse, hunter, jumper or eventer) is what is learned by schooling dressage. And I am finding more and more that true horsemanship is lacking in so many-not ignorance, but sheer laziness or not having the desire to take care of one's horse-be it knowledge of saddlery, veterinary care, grooming or feeding. I praise Pony Club for my well rounded knowledge-

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[lark]

true that anne kursinski is a GM product, but ALSO trained through Grand Prix dressage with Hilda Gurney.....

[lilblackhorse]

the last post reminded me of a clinic that I attended...geez, now who was it? welcome to middle age brain wasting...anyway, a dressage clinic...they had a story about riding in the open. She was working with high end dressagy americans, and made them get out of the arena and gallop on like a loose rein across a polo field in Florida..these riders (also with good seats obviously), freaked, and it took some time for them to want to do it, and feel comfortable.
Just an aside, but I agree that kids don't ride in the open anymore, and enjoy a good bareback gallop across a field anymore....*sigh*...I'm getting old

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[InWhyCee]

...except that many of the amateurs and juniors I have seen in Europe looked like pros to me... secure seats, total control, guts! Perhaps it's because the EuroTots tend to learn to RIDE before they start over fences?

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."

[Canter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[B]Originally posted by Robby Johnson:


In America, where it's all about the ribbon, I do think that many of the hunters are quick to take a shortcut to get to the winner's circle. Most of them have never worked a gymnastic line to develop their horses, and most have no idea what to do to help their horse travel better. I agree with DMK that the "trainer-saturated" market is responsible for producing the crike that's out there.

I definitely think we've got it in place. I also think our geographic vastness - which allows sub-cultures to develop rapidly - plays a part in how American riders differ so greatly.

Robby[b/]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby, while I agree with you in principle, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to disagree with you and DMK - I don't think it's the fault of the trainers, necessarily.

Up here in Canada, and not that different from y'all, we do not have an oversaturated market. And yet 75% of the riders in the hunter ring have never ridden a horse with real hind end engagement.

Yet most top trainers do tons of gymnastics. The whole point with the hunters is to "manufacture" that perfect jump if it doesn't exist 100% through sheer talent. There are no shortcuts to that end. But there are to basic flatwork.

I'm going to simplify my argument hugely, in the interests of time, by saying that the very nature of the hunters ways of going is counter productive to the correct (dressage) approach to flatwork.

A hunter's profile when working is so far removed from those German's that I am not surprised that correct shoulder ins and half passes are not taught. A hunter can be allowed to go around the course with it's nose poking to the outside and win Championships.

Thinking like a trainer here: In driving school, they did not teach me how to drive Forumla One. They taught me how to drive. If I want to learn Forumla One, it's up to me to pursue that, once I have learned how to drive.

Can that thought be applied to hunters? I think so. For jumpers I think it's a given. Any trainer whose flatwork program doesn't resemble a level 1 or 2 dressage program is doing a huge disservice to his/her clients.

But hunter riders? I'm not so sure.

[hitchinmygetalong]

My daughter took a couple of years of lessons at H/J barn on school horses. She was jumping 2'6", not much, but still, it was jumping. Even went in a local show or two.

Then we buy a horse. Guess what? Daughter can't ride the horse. Much frustration. Now, after one year of semi-sporadic (due to weather/budget constraints) "good horsemanship" (a.k.a. "dressage-type") lessons they are finally learning to communicate well with each other.

So, who taught my daughter to RIDE?????

"The simple truth is never simple and rarely true."
-Oscar Wilde

[Kachoo]

I agree with whoever mentioned that the problem doesn't lie in the hunters. The hunters aren't worse than the jumpers - they're just different, and because different qualities are being looked for in each, you can't really compare the two or blame one for being detrimental to the other. Now, one thing I do believe may have resulted from the influence of the hunter-style is emphasis on the wrong details. I have ridden with trainers from the U.S., Canada, Europe, and New Zealand, and the enduring difference between these coaches, I found, was that the North Americans emphasized style and proper position much more than any of the others did, despite being JUMPER trainers. Now, I understand that many people believe that form and function go hand in hand, but the Europeans have always seemed to place more importance in getting your horse going well and getting the job done before concentrating on yourself and how you look. I have seen many Euros with an over-fence position that would send George Morris into immediate cardiac failure, but they are usually poised over a horse that is jumping in unbelievable form and that seems to be under perfect control. I believe that that is not only a result of the dressage they do regularly but also of the mindset they have - none of them worry about being criticized for being ugly in the saddle. Over here, every time I've heard someone referred to as a seat-of-the-pants rider, it's been in the form of an insult. In Europe, whenever I've heard it, it may not necessarily have been issued as a compliment, but the person saying it always did so with at the very least a smile, a nod, and a note of wry admiration for the individual in question doing what he or she had to do. It may seem like a small detail, but it does hint at a very big, underlying attitude difference. I rode the hunters before I started doing the jumpers and I know many who have done the same. While I was fortunate enough to have a eq/hunter coach with the vision to teach me not necessarily about how to always look good but rather how to always look as good as POSSIBLE while getting the job done, most of those I know personally who have made the transition have the nagging habit of erring on the side of subtlety when what they really need at that point and time is lots of aggression. It's true that back in the day, the U.S. was more of an international contender and that those folks did it with style, the sport, like any, has evolved over time. Bigger fences, more technical courses, and horses that have more thrust and athletic ability than ever before call for a different form in the air and a different way of riding to the fence. As much as many may hate to admit it, sacrifices in many details we think are important are probably necessary before North America can start doing as well as the Europeans. The hunters can stay the way they are, but the jumpers are going to have to change their mindsets.

Remember, I'm sorry for generalizing - I'm just theorizing based on people and experiences I have personally known. I'd post that picture of the Schmuckster jumping with heinous position but coaxing delightful form out of the horse again if it wouldn't make everyone vomit /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"Change your thoughts and you change your world." ~Norman Vincent Peale

[Midge]

I have owned my ten year old OTTB for six months. When kids at the horse shows ask me when I am going to show, I say, 'I can't show because I can't canter through the turn.' They laugh and I have made it a joke, i.e., I am incapable of cantering and turning at the same time.

The truth is, I can barely trot through the turn. Yet, a whole generation of hunter riding kids would think, 'You are trotting, you are turning.' /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

[Louise]

One of the guys I work with came up to me all excited the other day. He told me about his son who had just started taking riding lessons. He was so proud. He told me that his son must be good because on only his second lesson ever, "his trainer had him jumping!"

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago with these people, but, I'm a slow learner so I said something about learning to develop an independent seat before jumping. All I got for my effort was a "how dare you insult my child like that look" so I went on my way wondering all the time how in the world that child was ever going to develop a decent seat, and praying that he didn't get hurt the first time a horse did something wrong and the kid landed face first in a jump.

Unfortunately, I am very much afraid that there are many too many trainers out there who do this sort of thing, just to keep the people coming and collect their fees.

[subk]

I'm a long time event rider and have my horse boarded at a small private barn that belongs to a hunter rider. The barn manager who we all take lessons from is a former Grand Prix dressage rider. (Fun mix of horses and people!) I also spent two summers of my youth working on the A hunter circiut.

It has been facinating watching our hunter rider's rounds improve as her horses dressage training progresses! Her amatuer horse has gone from the occassional hack ribbon to a contender in the hack. Her horses have learned to jump rounder with better use of all their body parts. Their body shape and muscleing have become rounder and stronger. She has found that now she has an educated frame from which to work and so can adjust that frame to the work required. She does her hack classed in a "long and low" frame--head and neck low but still pushing from behind and round over the topline. Her horses learn their lead changes in the dressage ring.

No one questions the connection of her hunter ring success with her dressage progression EXCEPT the "big time" hunter trainer she works with on the road. He just doesn't get it!

I loved what Robby said about our geography quickly creating sub-cultures. Around here most hunter people think you can't "do dressage" without the ring with the little letters. My friend is considered quite the maverick.

I tend to agree with the original idea that there may be a connection with the understanding and application of dressage principles and success in the jumper ring. Just an aside--at least half of Anne Kursinski's book is dedicated strictly to dressage. sbk

[Canter]

It's her dressage background. She rode it seriously before switching to jumpers. It certainly helps, there is no doubt.

[Atypical]

Okay, so obviously you're not going to take a classically schooled hunter horse into a jumper ring and expect to win. The way of movement needed for both disciplines are completely different. I think that more dressage is certainly an asset to all hunter/eq/jumper riders. You also can't expect a horse to learn an entirely new way of going in just a few rides. WE have one horse that is learning to go,really pushing with his hind end and using his whole body, but if I relax and give him rein, he stretches into a hunter frame without becoming unbalanced, joyful joyful thing that is.

AS for youth today, I can comment becasue I still am one, at least for another six months, is that not all of us hop onto fantastically schooled horses. Riding greenies has helped me tons, though not necessarily with my position and I think riding bareback is a great way to develop an independant seat. I feel confident enough, in my horse, me seat, my training, to gallop him across the field we have bareback, sometimes in a halter even. My horse loves it too, I think he likes really being able to feel my seat and my leg without the saddle. Oh yeah, and my students don't get off the lunge line until they can post with no hand for three circles. Yeah for dressage cross training, it's helped my horses loads.

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by InWhyCee:
...except that many of the amateurs and juniors I have seen in Europe looked like pros to me... secure seats, total control, guts! Perhaps it's because the EuroTots tend to learn to RIDE before they start over fences?

"People... they're so
complicated. I suppose
that's why I prefer
horses."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! I've seen people at horse shows who can barely steer around a 2' course and make it over the jumps with a SAINT of a horse without falling off. To me, that person belonged on a lunge line working with no stirrups and no reins, and working on basic position and balance and CONTROL.

Use the Force.

[vineyridge]

I think Caprilli would be shocked to watch the Euro jumper riders.

I do not agree that the fences today are higher than when Americans did well in International Show Jumping. The courses may be tighter and more technical, but someone who knows, like Linda Allen, can address that point.

The classic American style, and it is a style, is to interfere with the horse's way of going as little as possible. Everything is/was aimed toward freedom for the horse. Dressage, as I understand it, is more rider domination, and asking/forcing the horse into unnatural ways of going.

Flatwork, on the other hand, is simply teaching the horse to listen to the rider. Flatwork is necessary for any horse to be a safe ride; the rider's position, use of the seat and legs, and carrying speed and impulsion into a jump are very different in the American style and the German style. Personally, I prefer the concept of a free horse to the concept of a dominated horse,just as I have the same feeling about politics.

[Robby Johnson]

It's awesome!

Robby

[rileyt]

Vineyridge, you'd better duck. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm counting the minutes until some DQ comes over here to take issue with your understanding of dressage. (and if no one steps forward, I will) Oh VEL-VET! Come hither!

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressage, as I understand it, is more rider domination, and asking/forcing the horse into unnatural ways of going. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understood that dressage was the building block of all we ask horses to do with a rider on their back. Basic kindergarden all the way up, depending on where your personal aims go.

Obviously, only the very basic lessons are conveyed to a race horse, a little more to a hurdler. Pleasure horse, show hunter, eventer and ending with the Olympic calibre dressage test.

Dressage is not only teaching the horse commands, it is body building at it's finest, slowly developing the working muscle groups as the horse learns to perform, upon discrete command, and with the weight of a rider, the very movements that it is able to do at will when loose in it's pasture.

[Janet]

I was going to say the same thing, rileyt.

[Robby Johnson]

before it's too late! LOL!

Dressage is about riding the horse so that he uses himself naturally to carry his rider comfortably (for both). It's the essence of having a rideable horse. A horse that has been allowed to be "free" isn't really broke and can't actually be ridden by the classic definition.

Robby

[rileyt]

I can't stand it. I agree with ETBW Vineyridge... as for "unnatural movements", on the contrary, every movement through Grand Prix IS a natural movement... Dressage just teaches the horse to do it when asked. Granted, you'd never see a horse in a field to a string of 10 one-tempi changes... but you'd see them do a single flying change. The tempi changes are just 10 in a row. If you've ever watched horses get really excited in a field, you'll probably see some passage. Good dressage is most certainly NOT forceful. But I understand where your impressions come from... there is an awful lot of bad dressage here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[DMK]

Vas ees this? Canter ees disagreeing vif me????

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Canter, it just won't work - you can't even disagree with me for the sake of discussion, because I don't disagree with you at all! It ain't the hunter frame that is the problem, to be sure. It's the fact that a whole lot of riders (and I do exclude the vast majority at ANY upper level of the sport, btw) don't have a clue that there are different levels of engagement and collection for different tasks. Presumably they are not all dumb, but rather no one taught them that there was a reason they rode that jumper differently from a hunter (aside from self-preservation, of course /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ).

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
I think Caprilli would be shocked to watch the Euro jumper riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so in Europe we may not find the stylists such as Joe Fargis and Michael Matz (both of whom I think the world of), but the job does get done.....look at Ludger Beerbaum of Germany, granted he may not be a "beautiful" rider, meaning his equitation is not perfect 100% of the time, but watching him ride a course of fences is a lesson in itself if you know what to look for.

I myself prefer function over form any day, I don't think one has to be a pretty rider only, one must have the technical skills as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The classic American style, and it is a style, is to interfere with the horse's way of going as little as possible. Everything is/was aimed toward freedom for the horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is the very foundation of the Italian system under Caprilli and I know, I lived there and rode under that system for many years...as little interference as possible...let horse learn on his own thru gymnastics and cross country riding. I just wish we had spent more time on dressage basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dressage, as I understand it, is more rider domination, and asking/forcing the horse into unnatural ways of going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here I disagree 100%.......and to be fair, I do not think you have seen the "real" thing, because when you do, you would not have made such a statement. Ask doesn't equal force either. Have a look at Nicole Uphoff or Debbie McDonald for the "real thing." There are others too, such as Rudolf Zeilinger (he has great video tapes out) and of course the late great Reiner Klimke....no force involved and you would see that on their videos.....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flatwork, on the other hand, is simply teaching the horse to listen to the rider.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is what basic Training level dressage is all about....teaching horse to listen to rider---obedience, balance, and the list goes on and on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flatwork is necessary for any horse to be a safe ride; the rider's position, use of the seat and legs, and carrying speed and impulsion into a jump are very different in the American style and the German style. Personally, I prefer the concept of a free horse to the concept of a dominated horse,just as I have the same feeling about politics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While there are some differences in the American and German styles of riding there exists some commonalities (sp?), both are about riding horse forward either on the flat or over fences; both are about teaching horse to carry himself (self carriage) with little or no effort from the rider. Both are about encouraging horse to go into the bridle. Where some of the differences lie also has to do with the type of horse the Americans ride and the Germans ride. Americans appear to prefer the thoroughbred who requires a light and free way of going. The heavier German warmblood does not go well in that manner, he requires a bit more support.

Like I mentioned, watch Ludger Beerbaum....he tailors his riding to the type of horse he is on, I have seen him ride both a TB type (Gladdys) and warmblood type (Goldfever). He is very good about leaving Gladdys alone to jump as she sees fit, but with Goldfever he will place him where he needs to be, more at the base of the fence.

And of course, if you can, find some pictures of true stylists, the d'Inzeo brothers of Italy who were winning back in the 60's and 70's....they, at least for me, are the epitome of what show jumping is all about and that's because I saw them over and over again for many years.

Hope you can change your ideas about dressage.....it's merely the initial training every horse goes thru prior to whatever discipline they will ultimately wind up in. I just think you need to see good dressage and it will change your mind..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[lilblackhorse]

I am NOT kidding when I say that two weeks ago I put my little horse in the roundpen, and he did 4 one-tempi changes in a row! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ...Honestly-this is my first level (barely) horse, granted never seen it before, and most likely will never again /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , but HE DID IT!!!!!!

Just thought to share....

I too like AK's book-when we do our cavelletti/grid jump lessons, it is all under the premise that jumping is merely dressage with a jump in the way....

aimee

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[rosinante]

Perhaps I'm dating myself....if I recall, when the US was winning the jumpers, Bert de Nemethy was the coach. If I also recall, he was highly criticized for how much "dressage" he forced his team to do.

So, 2 observations: Perhaps we're not focusing on dressage because it's become a "sub-sub specialty" an not what every horse did before going further, ie., jumping or GP (real dressage).

Also, Bert was of the "old school" ie., military, my way or the high way. Today we're into the you're ok, I'm ok, everything's ok. Perhaps we lack the discipline the old cavalry guys used to instill in their riders.

I saw a jumping clinic with one of our Olympic riders....Anne Kursinski, of all people after re-reading these posts. She was having riders do a gymnastic line asking the folks to canter 3 strides after the last fence and halt. They couldn't do it. She then stood in front of the jump. They almost ran her over. That got her REALLY hot!!! These were people competing at prelim-intermediate eventing and the local jumper crowd.

The riders got rather upset when she set high expectations. I did not see any rudeness in her approach to the riders, just blunt and point-blank assessments about their riding capabilities. Perhaps, we're getting a little soft around the edges.

I would volunteer that it's not the "dressidge", but the discipline that's lacking in our not being competitive in the jumpers.

I just saw the Disney movie on satellite, "Nautical, the Horse With the Flying Tail". Talk about awesome jumping. They have incredible footage of Aachen, and Royal Horse Show....I wish I had videotaped it!!! Incredible jumping in a snaffle and drop noseband. It's like seeing a time warp. GM was a young kid, Bert de Nemethy, Hugh Wiley....great names....The awards were given by the Queen Mum, so Elizabeth was not yet Queen, so the flick must date from early 50's. Want to get inspired, go rent it....I'm actually thinking of buying it, it was so amazing to watch!!!

[This message was edited by rosinante on Nov. 14, 2001 at 05:52 PM.]

[SGray]

"The classic American style, and it is a style, is to interfere with the horse's way of going as little as possible. Everything is/was aimed toward freedom for the horse. Dressage, as I understand it, is more rider domination, and asking/forcing the horse into unnatural ways of going."

--- that is just so sad - that this is your "understanding" of dressage

my understanding is that

==it is the making of a partnership wherein the rider knows exactly where each part of the horse is and the horse's attention is focused upon the rider

==it is the development of the musculature of the horse for the most ease of carrying the added burden of the rider

==it is balance of both partners

==it is both partners being so "in tune" with each other that the rider can "think" shoulder-in and the horse moves into shoulder-in

==it is a rider understanding what the horse is ready to try so that they remain in harmony and avoid working in tension

==it is both partners being happy in their work

==and so much more


(no DQ -- but does that do it for you rileyt?)

[Kachoo]

There have been some really good points made here, and I'd like to comment more on this topic, but my school has been inconsiderate enough to have scheduled a biology (205, or as I affectionately like to call it, "biology for the science-impaired" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) exam tomorrow, without devoting an iota of thought to the fact that it would interfere with my Internet time. But I digress. Back to what I originally wanted to say - I noted that one or two people described dressage as something that involves force and domination, and that is exactly the incorrect attitude I see in so many North Americans. While there are plenty who believe that dressage is nothing but beneficial to jumpers, I can't tell you how many jumper people around here have looked at me like I have two heads whenever I myself have brought up that very same thought. Dressage, when done correctly, as some of you have already pointed out, has nothing to do with dominating your horse or forcing him to do something unnatural. Rather, it's one of those rare endeavors that can be defined as either artform or sport, and it involves a deep connection and understanding between horse and rider. Dressage horses and riders at the highest levels are one step away from reading one another's minds, and I've heard it said that when the sport is done correctly, it looks as though the horse is performing the movements by himself, while the rider is simply there to enjoy the experience. If force or domination ever come into it, then dressage is the furthest thing from what you're doing.

I also feel that the different styles utilized by North Americans and Europeans have evolved largely through the horses preferred by each. While a thoroughbred might not enjoy having someone sit right down on his back and grind out a between-leg-and-hand ride, anyone who thinks he or she can coast around a course to a sweet clear on a warmblood without at least some degree of packaging and "interference" is sadly deluded. However, I do think that the Euro style is much less controlled and dominating than many people think, and that horses of many types can go happily and well in it. Look at John Whitaker - now, there's a man who can ride anything. Look at Ludger Beerbaum - despite all his controlled rides, I don't think there's anyone here who can claim that Ratina Z was an animal who would accept "domination" or "force" very well, yet she was arguably his most successful horse. Rodrigo rides everything, from the lighter horses to the heavier ones, in a way that's just lovely. They're clearly doing something right.

Sigh, this was supposed to be really short. I'm off to go stick my face in a textbook now.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"Change your thoughts and you change your world." ~Norman Vincent Peale

[lilblackhorse]

My current trainer rode with Bert De Nemethy, and I would bet money that the caveletti program she uses for us is his.....it works.

As for the movie "the horse with the flying tail", it was so great, haven't seen it since i was a kid. I remember vividily though my camp in Virginia which must have had some tie to Nautical, as she had a photo of him on the wall-he was amazing. Perhaps I can rent the movie...

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[vineyridge]

When I was in pony club, oh so many years ago, we used to do what we called "Program Rides." They were probably pretty close to Training Level Dressage today. Please remember that Americans didn't do much "Dressage" before the LA Olympics, and my Pony Club days were long before then.

I considered my Pony Club Programs and preparing for them "flatwork", and "dressage" was a whole different kettle of fish, which was engaged in by Germans primarily, and was useless to foxhunters and hunter/jumpers.

Maybe we're talking about semantics here, but I still think that upper level dressage is as unnatural a way of moving as ballet dancing. Reckon where you're talking about muscle memory training for non-specialists, the ballet and dressage have a lot in common.

But I still prefer to describe what Pony Club asked of us as flatwork.

[findeight]

The Horse in the Grey Flannel Suit is so much a better example-it is a Disney film about the Medal classes and a girl who can perch but not ride, until trainer takes the saddle away. Rent it.
Anyway Europe is different. Apples and oranges. We have western pleasure, is it their fault the international show jumpers don't win too?
More like the inability to select the proper team. We have the talent just not a good way of sifting through it. Many european countries match the horse with the rider, all state controlled. We do not do that here. We do not take the rider that made the horse off for a state supported rider. The owner however can remove them but that is our system. It is open to all as most european countries are not.
Also do not compare upper level european shows to our grassroots level stuff (which they do not have over there), yeah it's bad. I once saw a lower level dressage show and that was pretty bad too. I don't use that for comparison.
Europe is made up of small nations that closely control the teams-we let whoever rides the horse take it international. Apples and oranges.

From Allergy Valley USA

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I considered my Pony Club Programs and preparing for them "flatwork", and "dressage" was a whole different kettle of fish, which was engaged in by Germans primarily, and was useless to foxhunters and hunter/jumpers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know when you were in Pony Club, but I was a member from about 1965 to 1971.

I was taught real (lower level) dressage by a former member of the Spanish Riding School. And it was applied to jumping too.

[Janet]

I disaggreee with your comaprison. "Horse with the Flying Tail" is based on FACT. "Horse in the Gray Flannel Suit" is FICTION.

[SuperPony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
Just an aside, but I agree that kids don't ride in the open anymore, and enjoy a good bareback gallop across a field anymore....*sigh*...I'm getting old
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree! i think it's kind of sad that a lot of show kids i know only work in the ring. as for me...well, bareback is much more fun, plus you don't have to do all the work of putting a saddle on! and i am not that old, though i don't do that many shows.

-Caroline
"If I go crazy then will you still call me SUPERPONY!"

[vineyridge]

My Pony Club days were somewhat before yours, Janet. Maybe how the programs were treated depended on where you were and on the adults running the club. We certainly never had a dressage specialist anywhere around. We worked on the transitions and the figures in an outdoor field with cardboard letters.

[lilblackhorse]

was in the early 70's, and we were lucky to have dressage clinics with germans and a rider who was long listed for the 80 olympics...we did lots of dressage, though I think before I was 16 I hated it, then the proverbial "Light" went on, and I was hooked!

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[LMH]

Well first I will have to agree with DMK and Flash here-I think alot of the problem does have to do with the oversaturation of poor trainers....it just keeps filtering through.

But could it also have to do with the overal "American mentality"-truly thin kabout it....we have become a victim society-look at daytime tv or the legal system of our country....

Maybe this is a bit too deep-but we really have things a bit easy over here (for the most part) and if something goes wrong it wasn't "my" fault-it was some syndrome or disorder---i.e. it wasn't MY fault-it was horse, trainer, groom so THEY need to fix it.

We are a society of immediate gratification without least amount of effort (think: get rich quick scams)....the Germans-and many European countries at least used to be known as a country with a very HIGH work ethic....they went through alot after the destruction of two WW's and had to put themselves back together...

I think much of this attitude spills over into competition. No one wants to take the time anymore to do it and resent the heck out of any criticism that comes along the way....

Think of all the people that jump up and down over GM-I mean the man may have his quirks-perhaps perfectionism is one of those quirks??? He sets those standards pretty high and most complain when they don't measure up-the b!itch and moan rather than pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and fixing what was done wrong.

So you have lack of basic education or understanding of the hows and whys of balanced riding and a little laziness and need for immediate gratification and voila-shoddy riding.

Perhaps I digressed a bit-BUT i have seen (albeight few and far between) LOVELY hunters traveling balanced and adjustable....BUT there are far far more counterbent, mouths open, trailing hocks behind, hollow in the back, etc.

Ask have the folks showing these horses how to get it done right and they probably can't tell you.

Life is too short to dance with ugly men

Founding Member: Invisible Poster Clique

[coppelia]

Everytime I get to watch the Masters at Spruce Meadows I wonder about the difference in European vs. North American jumping. Those American women scare the bejeezus out of me every time they ride into the big ring... but I've never seen a wreck (although I know it happens) and those gals give anyone thinking of winning a run for their money. They may scare me, but I admire them since there's no way in hell you'd ever catch me doin that!

This year I was fortunate enough to be able to watch Merideth Micheals-Beerbaum (forgive me if I butchered the spelling) on the super-sexy stallion Concetto... To me, this woman is one of the top 5 jumper riders I've seen. She cruised around the jumps without looking like it was any sort of effort. Then one morning I watched her in the warm up ring schooling Concetto. Not once did she hop a fence. In a packed & hectic ring, all she did was Dressage. She had him FORWARD (which right there elevates her from about %75 percent of North American dressage riders), ROUND, and 100% on the aids! She went from a flat out gallop to a collected canter, to a flat out gallop, to a halt. No huge pulling, no ugly anything.

As a dressage rider, I was totally in awe. She's a peanut of a woman up there on pure power, and she was in total control, and made it look lovely.

I understand why dressage gets a bad rap. What most of us see, specially at lower levels, is not really correct. It's hacking, maybe. But hacking slowly. I scribed for an international level dressage judge who said something like, "dressage should make the horse more beautiful than it would be on its own. If you watch a test and think the horse would look better without the rider, running around in a field, then how can that be good?" I thought it summed it up pretty well.

So blah, blah, blah... my point is that Mrs. Merideth and Concetto are both gods, and if anyone gets a chance to watch some of the big dogs warm up before they jump, you might be suprised at how much "dressage" you'll see.

I hope that all made some sense...

[Atypical]

with Vineyridge's understadning of dressage. Dressage has an incredible amount to offer foxhunters and hunter/jumpers. It is certainly not the dominating of the horse. It is a little anive to think that all horses carry themselves ina proper, under-themselves, balanced way without a little rtaining on the rider's part. I've gone foxhunting before, and I would never set my seat in the saddle of a horse that wasn't schooled to use itself properly. With rough terrain, and rolling hills an unbalanced on the forehand horse is just asking for a spill.

I've gotten lax in my dreassage with my hunter/jumper horse as of late, and it has hurt us. he has fallen out of his nice rounded canter, gotten strung out behind, and, not being a naturally well balanced horse has fallen onto his forehand, resulting in jump refusals. He was getting sour. So today I put my butt in gear and really schooled him on his dreassage, which is how I trained him in the first place, so that he would round and get a forward, yet still rounded canter.

After half an hour of collection lateral work and serpentines he was more balanced and more connected with me than he's been in weeks. he was more ready to move off my leg at the slightest signal, with only a half halt stoped leaning on my hands and picked himself up. When I hopped him over some fences at the end of our ride he was more interested and more eager to go than he's been in a long time. If my horse is more connected, lighter and a happier jumper after some dressage reschooling, how could that possibly be a bad thing?

[Kachoo]

Coppelia - I agree with you about Meredith - now, SHE is a horsewoman! I've told this story about a hundred thousand times, but because I love it so much, I'll tell it again. A couple of years ago, the fam and I visited Aachen to watch a day of the Weltfest des Pferdesports, and we had the luck to be able to watch Meredith go in the Pulsar Masters on an amazing little horse named Sprehe Just Do It. That thing bucked its way around the course so hard and so much that the bajillion-strong audience was sucking air in all at once - I was surprised there was enough oxygen in the area left to breathe /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. When we realized that Meredith was not only riding the horse calmly through his mischief to perfect distances but enjoying the fact that he was having such a good time, everyone started laughing. Every time she left the ring on that horse that day, it was to the sound of thousands of people roaring with laughter and clapping. It was showjumping at its best and made me want to cry, because it was one of the most beautiful moments I've ever been fortunate enough to witness. The very next day, I heard a couple of Americans gabbing about her at breakfast in our hotel: "That girl has improved a thousand percent since she moved over here!" Oh, to have Marcus and Ludger RIGHT THERE /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"Change your thoughts and you change your world." ~Norman Vincent Peale

[AmityBee]

I couldn't agree more with Kachoo's (first) post !

Since there's no hunters in Germany it's more about being efficient that looking pretty. And a horse that's "on the aids" and trained in dressage to know them, IS much more efficient.

OF COURSE being both, pretty and efficient is the ultimate goal. And that's why I think Lugder Beerbaum is the greatest !!!

...Life without horses is possible, but pointless...

[Jumphigh83]

Jumping a course is just flatwork with "stuff" in the way! The jump is an extension of the canter stride. Anyone who thinks they can jump a course WITHOUT a thorough understanding of "flat work" "dressage" whatever you want to call it, is going to be a side show! I wouldn't jump a course without KNOWING when, where, how, my horse is going to meet the jumps and that is based in FLAT WORK...A well broke horse is a NECESSITY to a successful round. Anything less will be hair raising to watch!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Whistlejacket]

My horse (13 yo 7/8th TB / 1/8th Trakhener gelding) and I are seasoned foxhunters. Eighteen months ago he and I started taking dressage lessons in addition to remaining active foxhunters. We started taking dressage lessons to help us in the jumpers. What I happily found out, was in fact, the dressage lessons have helped us tremendously in the hunt field! And this was even more thrilling to me because he was already considered one of the nicest horses in our hunt field. (Obviously, there's always more to learn! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

My horse and I work with a skilled and talented dressage rider and instructor at a fancy dressage barn full of true-blue DQ's. (Oh my! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) My instructor however realizes that my goal in dressage is not the performance of higher level skills such as piaffe, pirouettes, etc., but to learn to ride my horse in a way that is supple, rhythmic, balanced, with impulsion, and on the aides.

I cannot speak highly enough of how her dressage exercises on those blankity-blank 20 meter circles have helped us in the hunt field. While in foxhunting typically you are carrying much more pace than in dressage, my goodness, you sure as he## better be able to ride with balance through the various transitions dicated by the varying slope of the terrain, the changes in footing, the speed of the chase etc. As far as rhythm, yes it changes frequently during the hunt, but the rhythm still exists. And when you're in full flight going downhill and the field suddenly turns, it definitely helps to be able to ride balanced through those turns on the outside aides.

Frankly, I could go on-and-on with examples, but I will stop after this one. My horse's preferred way to go is long-and-low, and he also prefers to be heavy on his front end. This way of going can make riding down a steep slope at speed (as is frequently done in foxhunting) quite a challenge.

However, I started using some of the skills I learned in my dressage lessons as we go down hills. Specifically I keep my leg at or behind the girth and with a light seat do that "dressage-y" backward rolling motion with my hip joints in order for him to get his hind underneath him and off his front end. Almost immediately I noticed that he did exactly this to such and extent that the reins became slack. (And this does not have to do with harsh equipment - I hunt him in loose ring slow twist snaffle bit, regular caveson, no flash, and a loose martigale). I was amazed and thrilled with the difference and the improvement. And this more balanced way of holds when we are in full flight riding at the front of the field.

I cannot thank my dressage instructor enough for her help...in the huntfield! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Whistlejacket on Nov. 15, 2001 at 10:20 AM.]

[Pookah]

As a dressage and hunter rider, I think that the problem is with Americans altogether. In my opinion, every horse should be taught basic, correct dressage. Two years ago, we purchased an event horse for my dad, primarily because he jumped so flat and comfortably. Well, we spent two years working on his flatwork and teaching him to use his hind end, and he is now difficult to jump because he jumps SO round and so correctly. I have never met a horse that would not benefit from correct basic flatwork/dressage (yes, they are interchangeable). That said, I must also slam the dressage outlook in the US, where many people have bastardized dressage into cramming the horse into a "frame" and teaching it tricks. No wonder dressage has such a bad rap! Pretty universally, all of the disciplines focus on "getting to the show ring." No sh*t, this is going to lead to shortcuts, teaching tricks, and non-classical riding. Now, please don't send me a dozen e-mails saying, "I don't do that." I realize that many riders and many trainers aren't guilty of these thing. However, in my opinion, it is common across the US in GENERAL.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[Velvet]

What qualified it as "real" dressage versus something else? What is that something else...if it's not dressage?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[lilblackhorse]

I have been lamenting this for the last few years, watching the horses in my barn and area pushed to the brink....WHY IS EVERYONE IN SUCH A HURRY??????? There, I said it. Americans want the quick fix, the "are we there yet" mentality has settled in the horseworld. For both horses and riders, it's like, Oh he looks like he's ready, let's jump.
I went to a show thing this weekend, and NO LIE, saw a three year old at his first outing, jumping 2 6" in DRAWREINS...God, I have never ever seen anyone do that before-this poor horse looked sooooo frightened /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ...and what was the point? He was owned by a local trainer who obviously is in a hurry to "make" him so he can be sold for a hefty profit. I see it too in eventing....kindof like one would say to your kids contemplating sex, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
I don't get this hurry thing...Honestly, the two months off that my horse just had due to his hock injury has done more for us than all of our lessons and work. (I ride 5 or so days a week, 30 min max usually)...and he's 8!!!The slow road is a harder road taken, but the rewards are so much better. I just don't get it.....*sigh*

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Janet
What qualified it as "real" dressage versus something else? What is that something else...if it's not dressage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forward, relaxed, straight, on the outside aids, in front of the leg.

As opposed to "in a frame" and/or "forcing a horse to do unnatural movements".

[Pookah]

Wow, and here I thought I would be getting some nasty-grams! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way, because sometimes I sure feel like it. I love dressage and I love hunters, but I just don't like a lot of what I'm seeing. My dressage trainer always taught that 95% of a course is flatwork, there are only 8 steps where you're jumping. I have seen this philosophy pay off SO many times. I have a 21 year old hunter/dressage/event/foxhunting pony. We bought him as a pony hunter. He always did okay in the hunters, but was never an easy ride. We switched to dressage and combined training, where he won quite a bit. Then he became Mom's pony and only did flatwork with an occasional crossrail tossed in. A year ago, he came to my hunter trainer's barn to be a school pony. He is now the packer of the barn and doesn't pull a single one of his old hunter brat tricks. His lead changes are now automatic, even though he wasn't asked to do them for 8 YEARS. He doesn't cut corners. He finds his own distances to fences, even though he didn't jump for 8 years. All in all, he is a whole different pony to ride. My horse is a 25 y.o. TB off the track who evented to prelim, "dressaged" to FEI, did the jumpers, etc. He's had 3 career ending injuries, plus EPM, and to the amazement of every vet that sees him, he's still dead sound. I really credit this to very correct and solid education-strengthening on the flat before jumping, etc. And BTW, I bought him as an old guy, so I'm not bragging or taking any of the credit for this. I don't want to make it sound like I have a barnful of stars-they all have their issues, but I think that for the most part balancing solid flatwork with jumping has brought out the best in all of them.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[Kachoo]

Pookah - agreed, and let's not forget the wonderful effect it has on the riders. Dressage teaches you how to ask for things correctly, even when negiotiating a course of twelve fences and just brimming with adrenaline /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. The riders I know who do both dressage and jumping on a regular basis have a very broad base on which to build and have a much less limited bag of tricks to work out of. Examples? Look at the riding and coping skills of eventers. Also, a very good friend of mine competes in both Prix St. George level dressage and some of the smaller Grand Prix in showjumping (he's based in Belgium, but back in Malaysia, he's already become quite the Superstar since this year's success in the Southeast Asian Games). Never before have I seen a young man with so much touch and feel and such a sympathetic way of riding (he's only 21). Horses inevitably love him and give him everything, and he's a walking testimony that the line "jack of all trades, master of none" isn't necessarily true. Here's the link to his website, which has photos of him in competition (I've posted it before, but hey, have little details like that ever stopped me in the past /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif?):

Qabs' Homepage (http://www.homestead.com/qabilambak/mainpage.html)

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"Change your thoughts and you change your world." ~Norman Vincent Peale

[This message was edited by Kachoo on Nov. 15, 2001 at 12:24 PM.]

[vineyridge]

Somewhere in this house, I have a copy of "Schooling Your Horse". I can't find it, and I might have lent it out.

In the first couple of chapters, Littauer discusses dressage and collection, and I wish I could find the book so I could quote him. But to my best recollection, he says that horses who are to be used cross country and for jumping are harmed by dressage training and over collection.

Nobody who knows anything about Littauer would ever suggest that he did not understand the importance of working with the horse on the flat, teaching it to be flexible and balanced in its way of going, and responsive to the aids. That is horse training/schooling, not dressage.

[Pookah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
he says that horses who are to be used cross country and for jumping are harmed by dressage training and over collection.

Nobody who knows anything about Littauer would ever suggest that he did not understand the importance of working with the horse on the flat, teaching it to be flexible and balanced in its way of going, and responsive to the aids. That is horse training/schooling, not dressage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have to disagree. I think that horses being used for x-c and jumping are harmed by
incorrect dressage and over collection. No, not every horse should, or can, do FEI level work. But, when you describe teaching a horse to be "flexible and balanced, etc," that to me is dressage. We have this view of dressage as cramming horses into a frame and making them tense and icky. It's not-dressage is technically defined as the basic training and suppling of the horse. The following is an excerpt from USDF's website:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Helping riders and trainers communicate with their horses, dressage is the foundation of any style of performance.

Obedience, balance, sensitivity to light aids, and the ability to respond calmly and quickly to its rider's commands.

A horse with these qualities will do its job well, whether destined for the ballet movements of the Grand Prix dressage test at the Olympics, or life
as a jumper, pleasure horse, or show horse.

Riders sometimes try to produce these qualities with force or devices, but the result looks artificial and reduces the horse's athletic ability. Dressage training methods develop the horse without force or devices, utilizing
what we know of the nature and structure of the horse.

Dressage is not "magic." Through learning how, when and why to apply specific training exercises, you can make dressage work for you.

A gradual, logical system of strengthening and suppling exercises, dressage may seem to belong only in the white-fenced arenas at dressage
competitions. Yet, the aim of dressage is to develop the ability, suppleness and obedience of the horse -- qualities desired in any horse, no matter what its eventual use will be.

Except at the highest levels, dressage is not a specialty in itself. On the contrary, for hundreds of years, dressage has been practiced as a part of
the basic training to develop any well-trained horse.

This is why riders in all segments of equestrian sport often turn to dressage for the foundation on which to build a cooperative and responsive mount.
As an additional bonus, riders discover that many conformation flaws can be compensated for through the training exercises used in dressage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Pookah on Nov. 15, 2001 at 07:12 PM.]

[Pookah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:
Pookah - agreed, and let's not forget the wonderful effect it has on the riders. Dressage teaches you how to ask for things correctly, even when negiotiating a course of twelve fences and just brimming with adrenaline /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to add that I have found them both to complement each other really well. I did hunters as a kid, switched to dressage, and then joined the IHSA team at my college and started jumping again. The dressage has helped me in intercollegiate SO much, and working extensively on equitation has helped my dressage.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[Velvet]

But the meaning of "dressage" IS
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Forward, relaxed, straight, on the outside aids, in front of the leg.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"in a frame" and/or "forcing a horse to do unnatural movements".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is not dressage.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:

Nobody who knows anything about Littauer would ever suggest that he did not understand the importance of working with the horse on the flat, teaching it to be flexible and balanced in its way of going, and responsive to the aids. That is horse training/schooling, not dressage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. Isn't "dressage" just French for basic training?

I don't think anyone would suggest that every horse in every discipline should be in a perfect upper-level frame and doing piaffe/passage or pirouettes.

I'm not sure why we're so hung up on the semantics of the word "dressage" here... if you're doing correct flatwork, call it whatever you want. I think the goal should be that the horse is moving forward, correctly on the aids, engaged, and so on. There's no reason any competent rider shouldn't be able to put in a solid Training Level dressage test.

Just out of curiosity... what do judges look for in the hunter hack classes? Other than the obvious nice gaits and obedience, of course. Do they look for a horse that's forward and engaged and supple?

[PMJ]

I wonder if some of this is not a matter of a difference of ideas and methodology, not to mention termonology. I was reading "Basic Training of the Young Horse" by Reiner Klimke and it seems that many people not only have the intent and basic ideas of dressage wrong, but also there seems to be a different ideal behind the training of the young horse.

""Basic training has the aim of preparing the. . .horse with systematic graduated training, thereby laying a sound foundation for future specialization [emphasis mine]. This early work must not be restricted to a specialised channel, as the aim is to develop the natural capabilities of the whole horse. [Are the natural capabilities of the hunters, or any horse, actually developed if they canter around a turn bent to the outside since this is not really seen when a horse is at liberty and are unbalanced?] What we want to achieve is for the horse to move as freely with as without a rider. If the horse moves and carries itself in such a way then a basis is established for future development."

The purpose of following such a plan:

"Through careful development of the muscles and by well thought out gymnastic exercises the horse will stay sound and healthy longer and will be more able to cope with its specialised discipline. [emphasis mine]"

To me it is hard to argue with a system that promotes what is best for the horse.

[subk]

I once heard Jimmy Wofford say in a clinic that it was years into his own training that he realized that dressage was more than just a great way to improve your horse's jumping ability and solve training problems. Granted he grew up at a time when Dressage as a pursiut unto itself was almost nonexisitant in the U.S. Back then dressage was a multi-disipline activity, not an end product for the show ring. I think the Europeans do a better job of thinking of dressage along those terms today than we do.

Along those same lines, I believe that in Europe there is SO much more inter-disipline activity. I admit I'm not terribly well informed on European practices, but I've alway understood that they breed for correctly made horses with atheleticism. They then take their young horses and trained them to do a bit of everything until their propensity for a specific disipline is revealed. In the U.S. we breed horses for a specific job and then focus their training exclusively on that job. Who knows if that average mid-level dressage horse isn't the jumper of the century? God forbid that anyone has EVER jumped him!

I think the European success in Show Jumping is more complicated than the difference in "flatwork" vs. "dressage." Maybe it's more about their young horses getting a more rounded education in general (which includes more dressage work than our average jumper sees in a lifetime.) Then those horses are "placed" in the best disipline for that horse. Just a thought. sbk

[Flash44]

I was also thinking that in the US, the top point finishers go to a show every week! At least! When I was doing the A/A hunters, some of my competitors were doing a show Saturday, a show Sunday and if they could find one, Friday as well!

Just about every sport has a "season," where the athletes are competing. Following the season is usually some down time for the athletes, then they get geared up again after a few months rest. Including horse racing (although racing is year round, most horses get a few months vacation a year).

Why is it that we insist on showing year round with little time off? And as much hauling and staying away from home as the circuit requires, it's really hard on a horse both mentally and physically. You rarely see horses turned out for the winter. They go south. IF they are lucky, they get a 6 week break after indoors.

Use the Force.

[Pookah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:
Who knows if that average mid-level dressage horse isn't the jumper of the century? God forbid that anyone has EVER jumped him!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES! I hate to see dressage people who never let their horses hop over a crossrail, or head out for a quick trail ride. It does their brains and bodies so much good! People at the dressage shows hated me schooling my pony before the class, because he warmed up best going for a quick "gallop"/strong canter around the field. He was always totally under control, but that's how he like to start (after walking/trotting, etc, obviously). You would have thought I was out to kill the precious warmbloods (many of whom spooked at a cantering pony, sadly enough). I think Europe is far superior to us in terms of producing quality horses and knowledgeable riders
of all levels because there is an emphasis on multi-disciplining.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[vineyridge]

Ela, you quoted Reiner Klimke as saying:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What we want to achieve is for the horse to move
as freely with as without a rider. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is precisely the goal of Littauer, Chamberlin, Caprilli, et al. Littauer proposes to achieve that goal with gymnastics and other exercises intended to teach a young horse to extend and contract its body, and to be supple in the turns, all the while staying in balance.

It's too bad that Littauer and Chamberlin and deNemethy (all from cavalry days) aren't still the gods of the jumping horse world.

BTW, there is a source for the last set of training tapes from the US Cavalry, ca. 1939. Apparently this place has quite a few cavalry publications on riding, training and horsemanship. The US Special Forces recently bought three complete sets.

[lilblackhorse]

you all are so good at this...How do you get "quotes" to work...like so you don't have to keep hitting the back button to see what the person wrote, or how to spell their name? I would be eternally grateful if you could give me a quick lesson-I noticed you all have it down pat...thanks in advance...aimee(the computer impaired)

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[Erin]

Hang on a sec, Aimee, I'll email you /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Heidi]

We've done a fair bit of riding in Ireland and have attended both Millstreet and the Kerrygold, in Dublin, where we were fortunate enough to watch many of the top Europeans showjumpers.

Among my observations, FIW, which are somewhat disjointed...

Though this is not true of all Irish riders, much of the riding done in Ireland, especially among kids, is, for lack of a better characterisation, by the 'seat of the pants'.

Very few kids seem to be enrolled in riding programs or enjoy the benefit of professional instruction - unlike the North American phenomena of Instructor Dependence. Safe to say, most couldn't perform a half pass.

The Irish team, though, has enjoyed unprecedented success in the Nation's Cup over the last two years and what the children may lack in professional instruction, they more than make up with their sheer bravery in tackling a stone wall, helmetless, frantically kicking their horses on.

Yes, some of the Irish team have benefitted from the program run by the Irish military but most haven't. They have perhaps benefitted more by the common Irish credo that if the wall is there, regardless of one's riding skill, you jump it. Whatever the secret to the success of the Irish team, I don't believe the basis is dressage.

Similarly, they held a class one year in Dublin billed as an 'American Style Hunter Class' - what the Irish couldn't do well was to mock and imitate the classic hunter seat so commonly seen in North America. But then again most of the mounts in the class did not remotely resemble the classic 'daisy cutter' North American hunter. And to compound the irony, the worst rider in the GP that year, in our eyes anyway, was Peter Pletcher, a well-known Texan whose roots are in the hunters.

On the other hand, Jay Hayes spent the summer past in Europe schooling in dressage. He's never ridden better and been more effective with Diva. Our greenie jumper, who was imported to Canada from Germany at 5, was schooled in dressage and as our, Canadian, trainer enthused, "man, I've never sat on a better broke greenie".

Now, I'll confess that I'm not keen on hunters and haven't watched an entire class in my lifetime. Did sit through the Hunter Stakes last Friday at the RAWF, however, and at one point asked my husband, 'why are they all tilted forward as if they'll keel over?'.

I do recognize, though, for many the hunters is an end in and of itself. I doubt many show hunters in the hopes of eventually producing a better jumper - or even harbour secret ambitions to show in the jumper ring.

BTW, this is my protracted way of asking, 'does it matter?'

[bertha]

The hunter world can be divided into two camps. Those that believe in "dressage" background and those that believe that a hunter should not be asked to do anything but walk/trot/canter. I think many of the traditional hunter trainers (Jimmy Lee for example) are in the second camp. In this case flatwork is actually hacking the horse, they are never asked to move forward/sideways off the leg, engage, bend, etc.

I think the problem is that very few trainers do any dressage at all, and not necessarily correctly. We have a jumper that can do two-tempi (sp?) flying lead changes, he can also go long an low in a hunter frame with his nose poked out. I am not saying that hunters need to have this level of collection, but a hunter frame is a training level frame. A horse that is trained correctly can carry their nose poked out while being balanced on their hind end, instead of getting the hunter "look" by stiffness.

In the hunter world trainers will ALWAYS disagree about the level of flatwork for the hunters. The end result might be the same for the top hunters, but the way to get there is different. Sometimes each horse responds better if BOTH camps are incorporated into their training. (hacking as well as dressage work)

In the show jumping world, I believe that the reason that we do not do as well has nothing to do with the horses. An European horse would have no problem with our trials, they are fitter due to the dressage work. The fitness allows them not to have the same number of injuries, and they are not lame the day after a Grand Prix.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

Just out of curiosity... what do judges look for in the hunter hack classes? Other than the obvious nice gaits and obedience, of course. Do they look for a horse that's forward and engaged and supple?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, they look for THE trot, and then they pray the canter is nice enough that the horse with THE trot can still own the blue. But my experience is that THE trot with an 7-8 canter will beat out a 10 canter with a 7-8 trot most days.

Rodney Jenkins had an interesting thought process on "total" obedience. Mind you, his analogy has been colored by his new love, TB racing... But he said that if you have a hack horse who is 10 lengths ahead of everyone else, and he stumbles (i.e., makes a mistake like a poor transition or brief lead screw up) is he not still 8 lengths ahead of the rest of the pack?

Food for thought...

[Ruby G. Weber]

THE TROT!!! Since when do horses trot around the course? I'd much rather see a 10 gallop than a 10 trot. And how many watch the walk? How many horses that walk a 10, canter a 5? Not many that I've seen. Maybe they don't gallop the hunter gallop but they gallop balanced.

But getting back to the discussion here. So many hunter riders and trainers are afraid to put their leg on for fear of inciting a riot. I don't agree with that method but that lack of leg is the basis for a lot of stiff hunters.

As I stated in my earlier post, basic dressage is necessary for all disciplines. At the very least, all horses should go straight. All horses should go forward easily and slow (collect) easily.

[Kestrel]

At our barn, we don't call it dressage, but Mondays and Tuesdays are flat days. Once a rider is off the lunge line, they start to work on extension and collection to the limit of the horse they are riding. Round circles, large and small come next, then counter bend followed by haunches and shoulder in and out. Leg yeilding is taught as well, as is counter canter for the kids/adults at the appropriate level. Jumping starts when the rider has enough strengh to basically hold position (leg, body and hand) at the two point. There are lots of trot rails and grids, working up to gymastics.
Now, what level of dressage all that is, I have no idea. My current horse was a GP jumper in Europe, but does two-tempi and canter pirouettes (not with me on him, yet /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. What level would that be?). He is the easyiest horse I have ever ridden. A little leg to straighten right or left before the fence, no problem. Collect or lengthen to the fence, no problem. Once you ride a horse with all the this good stuff, you'll never want to go back. I ride him in the low hunters and all I have to do is ask him for the hunter frame. He's also happy with the eq frame. Good basic training makes better horses.

[Robby Johnson]

My friend goes to Ireland 2x per year and has brought 4 horses back over the last 3 years.

They are usually schooling Intermediate size jumps in Ireland - one of them she saw (and bought) and he'd only been backed for 15 days. And he was 3. Jumping Intermediate fences.

NONE of the come over with any basis of flatwork. She factors in at least 90 days of dressage before she can begin to diversify with the jumping. Sure, they all jump as snappy as can be, but quite often they're not adjustable or rideable in between the fences. I found that out this summer with the Irish mare I was leasing.

Further ... if you think the show-jumpers are bad you should see the Eventers!! Doh! Julie (Burns) bought a horse last December in Ireland who had successfully completed the Punchestown CCI*** with his amateur owner in 2000. The horse, she said, didn't even have the American equivalent of USDF Training Level dressage basics. And he was running Advanced!

Robby

[Weatherford]

Absolutely right on the Irish lack of flatwork!! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

However, I've heard the key to their current show jumping success is severalfold: 1) MANY top riders are living and working in the US or Europe (Kevin (US), Peter Charles (GB), Jessica Kurtin (Ger) to name a few. The rest tend to (or so I have heard) hire French graduates of Samur to be their working students - those kids KNOW their flatwork absolutely and want to learn English. It is a great trade for the Irish riders!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Emmet & DMK - couldn't agree more about the Hunters - Rodney's comment is dead on and IMHO could also be applied to Equitation. Or as another R judge stated, "by throwing out a brilliant horse or rider completely for a minor fault, we are rewarding mediocrity." So sadly true.

[Smiles]

Well I'll throw my 2 cents in a little late in the discusion, but it's just plan cheaper to show in hunters. Now I know somebody is going to say well you can win more money in the jumpers, but If your not in it for the money you can do more divisons in the hunters for your money then the jumpers. Also the cost of showing I think is outragous here thats another reason why maybe we just don't get the supports or national attention. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Pookah]

Haha, if you think showing in the hunters is cheaper, you should try going to some dressage shows. I haven't shown in about 2 years, but it used to cost me tops $300 for entry fees and stabling for a big A show for 2-3 days. The trainers, for the most part, don't charge out the wazoo for training fees during the show (mine never charged anything, actually). . .bet you can't go to an A3 hunter show for that /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[DMK]

Smiles, I dunno about that hunter thing being cheaper... About the only difference is the nominating fee, and that's usually what you pay in braiding fees for your hunter (assuming you don't braid).

Emmet/Weatherford - no kidding about the trot!! And of course it irks me even more that issues of frame, balance and one sidedness are SO much easier to spot at a canter, so if you consistantly reward the horse who is more spectacular at that gait, is that not rewarding the overall lesser horse? And maybe that is the reason that a lot of hack winners - except at the very highest levels - do not show up in the o/f ribbons?

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion now... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Flash44]

The European kids are running about on proper ponies, not on 6 figured wrapped in cotton comes with it's own groom custom saddle custom bridle Farnley Spenttoomuch that they are not allowed to do anything on without the trainer present.

No dis on the Farnleys, just trying to make a point.

Use the Force.

[lilblackhorse]

Another nail on the head-it's a pity that people/kids feel they need that sort of thing in order to compete. Guess that's why I like the eventing. On the Pony Club thought, we would take our mangy old horses to rallies...and WIN..we would beat the expensive horses, because it was how well one did, not the outfit or the breeding or the tack. I like that-I still like that. I enjoy taking my $900 horse to shows and at least not making an ass of myself in the ring against horses that cost more than my first house!
I guess that's another topic, but it all plays in, doesn't it? Let horses be horses, riders come up as true horseman....*sigh*...can we bring back some of the olden days??

"If you haven't gotten where you're going,you probably aren't there yet."-George Carlin

[AMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK: And maybe that is the reason that a lot of hack winners - except at the very highest levels - do not show up in the o/f ribbons?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sooo true! I was very frustrated at Indio this year when I got a whole passel of thirds in my o/f classes and nothing in the hack and a horse who won or was second in two o/f classes then got NOTHING in the next two o/f classes but did well in the hack beat us out by just a point for Reserve Champion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I was happy for the rider who is a very nice person, just frustrated to be so consistent over fences and lose because the other horse trots REALLY pretty.

[Jumphigh83]

What Flash said..just ride and stop with the over lounged, over trained, over priced "perfect" ponies! Let ponies BE ponies and these kids would learn to RIDE! Not just look cute....(PLUS the ponies would ALL be happier! )

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Janie]

I know I'm buying in late but I can't help myself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Re: one tempis - my foal Philadelphia the orphan filly did a string of lead changes in the paddock just the other day. I counted 6 last time I watched. Sure, they weren't one tempis, but they were clean, crisp and *frequent*! And ever so cute. Like most foals, she seems to be ever so balanced, ever so agile and ever so cute.

Dressage training for other disciplines: A friend of mine who breeds and trains big money Australian Stock Horses for campdrafting (a horse sport involving cattle) uses basic dressage training for all his horses.

Ponies and kids: Those boogers who ahve had to sit through my interminable ramblings about looking for a pony for my daughter will know how I feel about kids ponies (or horses). THe chief criteria is safety. We are lucky - we have Vicky the Wonder Mare. SHe is safe, sound and forward. She is *not* a million dollar ribbon machine, because Anna needs to learn to *ride properly*, not sit on a horse that will do it for her on auto-pilot. Oh, and because we couldn't afford one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vick is great in that she's a bit like an old schoolmaster. You need to ask her to do something properly. Then she'll happily oblige.

[This message was edited by Janie on Nov. 16, 2001 at 03:39 PM.]

[findeight]

CWP only the top 4 hunters over fences based on their placings get any credit in the hack towards the champion and reserve. This is the NF rules to prevent a horse that does not jump well from doing just that.
A single first is 10 points toward that goal, add a second and the other horse would have totaled at least the same as your thirds and fourths did even without placing in the other o/f class.
Sounds like you had a wonderful show, quite an achievement to ribbon in all the o/f classes even without the tricolor. Hope you were good to your horse afterward.

From Allergy Valley USA

[AMom]

Thanks Findeight! I learn something new everyday--thankfully! And you're right, I was pretty pleased to do well in that company, and MUCHO carrots were doled out to the more deserving of the partnership! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[baymare]

I've been dogging it on this thread, mainly because it is so worth thinking about. I must congratulate everyone on keeping things so civil and interesting!

Harking back to Littauer...As I recall, his main objection to upper level flat work for jumping/hunting horses was not that it was bad for the horses' way of going, but that it was too difficult for the average rider to do correctly, and to do it incorrectly could be harmful. He stresses that his book is for average riders on average horses, working basically alone and developing reliable, balanced, calm horses. In other words, harking back to another infamous thread along these lines, dressage really IS harder.

My primary gripe with modern day showring hunter riding is that it has traveled so far from its roots. It has gotten to the point where I wish we could change the name of the discipline to something else, because as far as I can tell there is no relationship between what happens over a course of eight carefully spaced fences in a groomed, flat, enclosed area and what an actual working hunter needs to know. I am perfectly able to allow aesthetics to be a factor--it SHOULD be, at a horse show. But what could be more beautiful than a bold-jumping, brilliant horse going at a real gallop over tricky and unrelated obstacles in an open field without putting a foot wrong?

I think modern horseshows, with the predictable distances and plethora of low-fence classes, simply breed mediocrity, both for hunters and jumpers.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
In the first couple of chapters, Littauer discusses dressage and collection, and I wish I could find the book so I could quote him. But to my best recollection, he says that horses who are to be used cross country and for jumping are harmed by dressage training and over collection.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether or not Littauer said it, my reply is:

Giltedge.

Also Custom Made, King William, and others. They do brilliant dressage, and brilliant cross-country.

[DS]

I've been to a few places where the trainers think they are teaching Dresage from the h/j point of view and then going to board at a dressage farm for a little while, I began to think the n/j people are NUTZ! 1st and 2nd and a some 3rd level IS JUST BASICS HORSE/RIDER SHOULD KNOW! It's nothing fancy. Nothing worse then getting on a horse that is stiff as a board, and knows only one speed per gate and you can not adjust while jumping a course unless you go YEEHAA or Hauling back!.GRRRR It's nice to get on a horse where you can let it stretch out ( long and low), lengthen,shorten, stretch it's front end and hind end to be supple ( shoulders/haunches in or out). It's like a warm up to work. And really the only person I've really ever seen Extreamly emphisize on this is Anne Kurzinski, ( sorry for butchering the last name)and european countries. Weather a hunter or jumper I think the the rider/horse should be taught to be collected and do that " lower level dressage"!

[UndeniedGirl]

My trainer (a good H/J trainer, has ridden GP and is a great teacher) has NEVER taken ANY of her horses out of the ring. Her horses have to be three horse lengths apart from all other horses at all times under saddle, and obviosly no bareback...

My friend and I both train with her, and it irks her to no end when she sees us in the feild across the road galloping are ponies bareback, jumping bareback, swimming, hopping XC jumps (she hates that I want to event) and just generally having fun...but you know what? my friend and I are the best two riders she has, with the most unflappable ponies.

On a good note, in my very first lesson with her, the very first thing she had me do was sit back (not back but not in a forward seat) and ride with much more of a "dressagy" aire. She also does dressage with all of her horses.

*Cass*

<~><*><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[UndeniedGirl]

I agreee completly that they are very mush alike, and I also agree that the average person(horse) couldnt not do the moves, but as someone who does ballet as well as dressage, there is nothing unatural about either. If you havent worked up through the levels, then you(your horse) can obviosly not complete the moves, but that is simpliy because you(they) have not aquired the body awareness and flexibilty to do it. Do my hips hurt after ballet? yup, but my knees hurt after riding, and I bet your horses hocks dont feel so great after jumping..

*Cass*

<~><*><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[vineyridge]

"SCHOOLiNG YOUR HORSE (Page 54)

Advantages and Disadvantages of Riding Fully
On the Bit

In spite of my last remark 1 would suggest your riding merely on soft contact. I have at least two reasons. First of all, brilliance of gaits is not an advantage in hunting or in ordinary jumping. It is rather an evil, because a very alert emotional state in the horse tends to border on excitement. Were your hunter to acquire the habit of moving vigorously when working alone, the chances are that you would have a puller in fast-moving company. Furthermore, the brilliant gaits will not get you there faster and will tire your horse more quickly. A second reason (an unpleasant admission) is that the average rider, if riding on the bit in the full sense of the word, will stiffen his horse, harden his mouth, excite him and may turn him into a habitual puller. It requires a technique, the mastering of which calls for more time than the majority of amateur riders in the United States have at their disposal.

However, there are exceptions to every rule; and, off-hand. I can think of one. Take the case of a horse which, while jumping willingly in company, may try to refuse or run out when jumping alone, let us say, in a horse show. And this is after careful, sensible schooling; just chicken-hearted perhaps. Such a horse has to be ridden to the obstacle fully on the bit. But the same technique may produce a rusher when applied to a normal horse. As a matter of fact, many rushers were made by their rider's legs.

I am omitting possible paragraphs on the usefulness of riding fully on the bit in various international competitions because I am not addressing myself to this category of riders.

Impulse Forward

No colt will at first move forward cheerfully preserving the contact, for it takes education not to mind the pressure of the bit.
True enough, he may, irritated by it, lean on it heavily for a short while but then as vigorously he will attempt to escape it, tossing his head while trying to find a position in which the annoying bit is not felt. Consequently, particularly in early lessons, the trainer
should aim at establishing only a really soft contact."

Littauer has a program ride/"test" for transitions later on in the book.

[This message was edited by vineyridge on Nov. 18, 2001 at 12:49 PM.]

[This message was edited by vineyridge on Nov. 18, 2001 at 12:50 PM.]

[This message was edited by vineyridge on Nov. 18, 2001 at 12:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by vineyridge on Nov. 18, 2001 at 12:53 PM.]

[This message was edited by vineyridge on Nov. 18, 2001 at 12:54 PM.]

[Janet]

You quote him as saying:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am omitting possible paragraphs on the usefulness of riding fully on the bit in various international competitions because I am not addressing myself to this category of riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that IS precisely the "category of riders" we are discussing in this thread.

[Kathy Johnson]

I have Littauer's "Commonsense Horsemanship." It is the cumulative work that started with his ideas in "Schooling Your Horse" and others.

In it he devotes an entire chapter to "Why Collected Gaits have No Place in Forward Schooling." Littauer developed a system of forward riding for hunters and jumpers alike, with no place in it for dressage. This has nothing to do with the level of rider, but everything to do with Littauer's Forward Seat System.

Littauer's system influenced many horsepeople, and changed the hunter ring dramatically. He brought Caprilli's work to America and made it unique. So, I can understand why people like Vineyridge were influenced by Littauer and his negative thoughts on dressage (although of course I don't agree).

Here are some more snippets:

"The lowering of the croup is typical of all manifestations of clollected gaits.....The general principle in this respect is that the lightening of the forehand is the foundation of all gaits with high action. NOTHING OF THIS SORT takes place at the free ordinary or fast gaits at which a hunter or a jumper should perform....This is one of the important reasons why practice at the collected gaits is not helpful in schooling hunters and jumpers. One may even say that the long practice in moving with short and high strides, with the weight shifted to the hindquarters and the hocks bent, will, in the majority of cases, be detrimental in establishing in a hunter or jumper the habit of moving with efficient, long, flat, strides"(516).

As for the "demise of American jumping and the end of the world as we know it," I don't believe it. Furthermore, I refuse to jump on the German Supremacy bandwagon. It's not the hunters, or the trainers, or the ponies, or the riders. At the very echelon of every sport, there are a select few individuals of some random nationality who made it to the top because of their hard work and some lucky alignment of the stars (chaos methodology at its best). Look at the Dutch in dressage and the New Zealanders in eventing. Last week it was the Germans, this week it's the Dutch, and next week, it's our turn.

[This message was edited by Kathy Johnson on Nov. 19, 2001 at 11:57 AM.]

[Flash44]

But a horse does lower his croup when he is just about to take off in front of a jump.

Anyone who has ever played a sport knows that you do lots of drills and exercises that help you attain strength and fitness as well as improve coordination. The same thing with horses - you ride them in different frames depending on what you are trying to accomplish at any given moment. You don't always ride as you would in the show ring, or really forward or really collected, but a combination of them to focus and correct your horse's weaknesses.

Use the Force.

[Kathy Johnson]

Yes, absolutely. There are plenty of holes in Littauer's theories. Another is when he claims the piaffe is not engaged at all (because the hind legs aren't tracking up?) and says the picture of the three year old greenie trotting on the forehand is far more engaged than the piaffe. It is an interesting book. I wish the ODG was around today--I'd love to take him on.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[Bumpkin]

This is an interesting thread to bring back /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rileyt:
Whew! Thought that would get your attention! OK. Really not trying to start a fight, but provoke a good discussion. As some of you may know, I just returned from riding in Germany, and I saw lots of things there that made me think. Here is one. Recently, I think, despite good horses and good riders, the US has been only mildly successful in International Show Jumping. The Germans, on the other hand, have done quite well. I had a chance to attend a smallish show, and watched several jumper classes. Even in the 3 foot divisions, I saw almost NONE of the scary riding I see at the lower level A jumper shows here. The horses were 99% warmbloods. And went almost EXCLUSIVELY in SNAFFLES. I saw ONE gag, and ONE pelham the entire day. One thing I noticed... all of these competitors, even at the lower divisions... could have ridden a solid 1st level dressage test in a heartbeat. The horses went in much more of a frame, were far more engaged, and the riders rode more vertically and less forward than here. There is no "hunter" division in Germany. When the riders warmed up, they did "dressage"... in a first or second level frame. Now, I know some very good hunter and jumper riders whose "flatwork" really is "dressage". But I know far more whose "flatwork" consists of walk-trot-canter in a hunter frame... with an occasional smaller circle, or turn on the forehand, or shoulder-in. I'm just wondering if there's a connection.

Do Germans learn how to engage a horse's hind end and RIDE the horse better than us?

Is it because they are taught "dressage"? Instead of aimlessly cantering circles and calling it flatwork?

Is the hunter "frame" (a longer, lower, more forward moving gait) and style a detriment when our hunter riders switch over to jumpers?

Thoughts?

Please don't blast me for picking on hunters... I think they have their place, and no one would fox hunt in a second-level dressage frame! But I'm wondering if the fact that most of the country starts with hunters ends up hurting us when they try to transition to jumpers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not made my way through all the posts, I am jumping in from the top so to speak.

Having had my start in riding in Germany I can tell you there aree a few things that are totaly different.

We don't start out as Jumpers - just like that old movie: You have to learn how to walk before you can fly! There is no such thing as riding for a few month and then being let loose on the jumps. First you learn to master your horse - in *Dressage seat* the two point is reserved for when you are out in the field - after you had plenty of lessons and shown that you can be let out of the arena.
Getting to jump is a mile stone - not getting to canter /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Before you can get to anytype of show - lowest level ( category C excluded) you need to take a test for the Riding Badge in bronce - a low level Dressage test, including medium trot and canter, and lead change through walk, backing up a length, a volte. And then you get to jump a course - I don't know how high, but I'd guess near the 3' markmaybe a little lower (but not much)

There are no W/T classes there are junior classes, a glorified lesson set up, you just don't get corrected (in the group) and intro dressage 9for juniors usually - who'd want to ride around with kids for a show carrier in groups of four, still including a lengthening of the canter.


As wether the Hunters are the death of the Jumpers - I don't know.
In the past there have been many US riders who are just sweet to watch, light and forward, Joe Fargis, Conrad Homefeld, Anne Kursinski, to name the ones I can remeber, and they kicked butt when they apeared on the international stage!

But now they seem to ride so *German*, hanging on the bit, ever more gadgets put on the horse....or if they do ride nice, they lack IMHO the proper horsemanship, the care one ought to have dealing with a living creature.

Seems to be connected with the problems VIriding academy sees in the sport....

[This message was edited by Alagirl on Dec. 04, 2002 at 03:12 PM.]

[rileyt]

Bumpkin! What are you DOING??? Don't you know I can only be responsible for stirring the pot on so many threads at once? Someone will have to sit-in for me... I'm busy making trouble on the dressage forum. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Coreene]

I always cringe when you see kids being told "Extend the trot" and think it means Go Faster, or "sitting trot," which means do the Western Pleasure Jog.

"Bridle up" always gets me as well.

[Bumpkin]

I watched someone last night, for the millionth time trot around quite quickly thinking she was doing an extended trot, when her horse was all strung out and looked as though he was going to plow his nose through the arena footing.

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"