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Passage2
May. 22, 2012, 08:44 AM
Just curious, last weekend at a show I noticed a lot of readers/trainers loudly coaching their students in the area outside the ring as they awaited the judge to ring the bell. It was very disruptive and chaotic because 3 rings were layed out together. I was in the middle of my test and heard the reader next to me yelling "go,go,go, tap, tap, tap! " I was so caught off guard that I swung my head around to see what was going on. I was surprised that the judges let this continue on. Isn't this ilegal? Wouldn't it be considered "unauthorized assistance"? I couldn't find anything about it in the usef rule book, but it seemed really unprofessional and weird..

Rhiannonjk
May. 22, 2012, 08:46 AM
My understanding is that you aren't riding the test until you enter the arena, therefore they can give direction up until that point.
Coaching loud enough that it distracts the other arena, that's just rude.

retreadeventer
May. 22, 2012, 09:21 AM
I can imagine what the judges must think; while they of course judge the test, impressions are still made -- they must be distracted while writing comments for the previous rider. That must be very disconcerting while riding in your own ring. I have always felt you are being judged as you circle, a judge is forming an opinion about what they will see as soon as you enter, although they don't start evaluating until they see the first movement of the test. I know when I have learner-judged, I try not to notice the trainers and various other "riders" until the rider to be judged actually enters, but if they surround themselves with drama, noise, and spectacle -- it's hard to be unhuman and miss it all....

SGray
May. 22, 2012, 10:31 AM
Just curious, last weekend at a show I noticed a lot of readers/trainers loudly coaching their students in the area outside the ring as they awaited the judge to ring the bell. It was very disruptive and chaotic because 3 rings were layed out together. I was in the middle of my test and heard the reader next to me yelling "go,go,go, tap, tap, tap! " I was so caught off guard that I swung my head around to see what was going on. I was surprised that the judges let this continue on. Isn't this ilegal? Wouldn't it be considered "unauthorized assistance"? I couldn't find anything about it in the usef rule book, but it seemed really unprofessional and weird..

perfectly legal until said rider enters at A

uncouth - definately (if they feel the need to coach then do it quietly)

ideayoda
May. 22, 2012, 11:05 AM
And guess what, the judge WILL think...hmmm, horse maybe not on aids??? It can backfire. And if it too distracting the TD can be advised to be there BEFORE the person's next ride and tell the reader to perhaps learn to whisper.

Gloria
May. 22, 2012, 11:46 AM
It may be discourteous of the other riders/coaches but I think as a competitor, it is still to your advantage to be able to tune them out because that won't be the only distraction while you are riding.

A couple of weeks ago while I was riding my test, I kept hearing the bells coming off and kept thinking it was for me (and getting really confused about it) and in reality it was the rider in the next ring getting off course. I know my ring uses a whistle but when the bell was so close and loud that it felt coming from my own ring, it is still quite disconcerting. There is nothing I can do though - except trying to tune it out.

fargonefarm
May. 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
I always tell my students that they are making an impression, or lack thereof, from the moment they start warming up outside of the ring. *IF* I do tell them anything before they enter, it's always quietly and always out of earshot of the judge. I always tell them to no matter what, politely say "Good Morning" or "Good Afternoon" as they go past "C" and tell the scribe their number as a courtesy. The big thing that I want to impress upon my students is to be absolutely courteous and respectful anytime they are anywhere near the judge.

As far as coaching before entering - I noticed something at a show this past weekend:

I was warming up my young TB before my Dressage test at an Event Derby. The warm-up was right next to the Dressage ring and during a break in the action in the ring I noticed the judge watching several of the riders in the warm-up, myself included. Not only did it make ME want to ride better but it also made me realize that a judges opinions can be formed LONG before the rider even begins riding around the ring before the test. Furthermore, if you are a professional and you are coaching at a competition, how YOU behave can affect your students and how others perceive them. If you are loud, obnoxious, or otherwise rude - your students are going to get a bad reputation as well. So while you may want to give your student every last bit of help before their test, remember that disrupting others in the process is actually doing everyone, including your student, a great disservice.

My feeling about doing a lot of coaching at shows is this: If I have to coach THAT loudly and THAT much at show, then maybe the student shouldn't be there!:winkgrin:

mp
May. 22, 2012, 01:58 PM
I always tell my students that they are making an impression, or lack thereof, from the moment they start warming up outside of the ring. ...

I noticed the judge watching several of the riders in the warm-up, myself included. Not only did it make ME want to ride better but it also made me realize that a judges opinions can be formed LONG before the rider even begins riding around the ring before the test.

While I agree with most of your post, the judge's job is to score the ride. Not the pre-ride warm up or what the horse does before the bell rings.

I once had a horse throw an absolute fit at her first dressage show. The warm up was outside and the show ring inside. She wasn't used to being in a ring alone and when the previous exhibitor and horse left, all hell broke loose. She spun, side passed, backed up (at a trot!), screaming her lungs out the whole time. As I went whirling by, I saw the judge looking at us, wide-eyed. I considered excusing ourselves, but figured what the hell. I paid my $$, let's do this thing.

Bell rang, we entered, mare found her brain and we did a decent test, for which we received a score of 52, the lowest score I've ever gotten. And believe me, I've ridden tests much more poorly than that one.

Judging from what other people told me, I'm sure the pre-test "performance" was taken into consideration. Now, I didn't expect brownie points for riding a mare in raging heat who was also herd-bound at her very first show. But I didn't expect to be penalized for what happened before we began our test.

KO
May. 22, 2012, 03:26 PM
Part of learning to compete is to shut out everything but what is happening in your arena. As long as no coaching goes on once the rider enters the arena it's perfectly legal for the coach to give last minute encouragement--loud or not.

Does loud coaching before going down center line effect scores--who knows, Probably depends on the judge. But we had Axel Steiner do a clinic at our barn and he said that most judges don't have an opinion until the first extention once you track right or left after halt salute.

Best thing is to stop worrying about what is going on in the arena next to you and focus on you and make you horse focus on you in your own arena. If you look and are distracted turning your head your horse will follow suit.

Frankly I have never seen a judge watching the warm up with much interest. They are too busy judging and when they get a break they are up getting some refreshment or lunch.

Most of the time I ride by the judge on my tour around the outside they are still finishing up scoring the last ride.

Velvet
May. 22, 2012, 03:38 PM
Big whoop. We are riding horses in a show. There are bound to be noises and distractions. It's totally legal. Get your horse and yourself used to riding in loud places and get over it. It's not all about you.

Oh, wait, that used to be my signature when I claimed to be the ultimate DQ. "It's all about ME, ME, ME!!!" :lol: If you're a major DQ, then maybe it is all about you...at least in your own mind.

Seriously, it's just not an issue. Let other people do what they do. You just ride your horse and your test. If you're that worried about what other people are doing around you when you go in the ring, you're focused on the wrong thing!

NorCalDressage
May. 22, 2012, 03:56 PM
It does make an impression on the judge & not a good one. Unless you're at a schooling show.

I've seen judges several times loudly chide the trainer for giving last minute schooling before rider enters A (after bell had been rung). In fact last time, judge told trainer if she said one more word to rider, she would be eliminated from the test.

You want to know the things that piss the judges off - scribe for awhile at a show.....

rebecca yount
May. 22, 2012, 04:00 PM
NorCal, if a judge eliminates a rider for anything that happens BEFORE their entry at A or AFTER their final salute, that judge is not following the rules.

Maybe they don't like that kind of behavior but that sort of threat is empty and such elimination would not be upheld should there be a protest.

quietann
May. 22, 2012, 04:24 PM
We have one of "those coaches" show up at the barn schooling shows occasionally. She's not only loud; she uses the periods before and after the test, while her riders are waiting for the bell, to berate them, yell at them, tell them they'd better not "ride like cr**" etc. The moment they're done, she starts in on them again. BTW, these are kids/young teens. I cannot see how this could make a good impression on the judge.

enjoytheride
May. 22, 2012, 05:22 PM
And guess what, the judge WILL think...hmmm, horse maybe not on aids??? It can backfire. And if it too distracting the TD can be advised to be there BEFORE the person's next ride and tell the reader to perhaps learn to whisper.

This is so far from being ok I am surprised that anyone who judged would admit formulating a score before the bell was rung.

NorCalDressage
May. 22, 2012, 05:29 PM
NorCal, if a judge eliminates a rider for anything that happens BEFORE their entry at A or AFTER their final salute, that judge is not following the rules.

Maybe they don't like that kind of behavior but that sort of threat is empty and such elimination would not be upheld should there be a protest.

Where does it say that the caller is allowed to do anything but read the test?

That's what they are there for. Period. Not anything else - even if the "caller" happens to be the rider's trainer. I'm under the impression it is considered "unauthorized assistance" and that is where the judge felt she has the authority to eliminate the rider.

DR122 10. Unauthorized Assistance is forbidden under penalty of elimination. Any intervention by a third
party, including members of the Jury, with the object of facilitating the task of the competitor,
including voice, signals, remounting, catching a horse inside the ring, etc., is illegal assistance.
Except in the case of an error, any outside assistance provided by or authorized by a member of
the Jury will result in elimination. A member of the Jury may not discuss a ride with a competitor
before the bell or after the final salute.

Velvet
May. 22, 2012, 07:06 PM
Where does it say that the caller is allowed to do anything but read the test?

That's what they are there for. Period. Not anything else - even if the "caller" happens to be the rider's trainer. I'm under the impression it is considered "unauthorized assistance" and that is where the judge felt she has the authority to eliminate the rider.

DR122 10. Unauthorized Assistance is forbidden under penalty of elimination. Any intervention by a third
party, including members of the Jury, with the object of facilitating the task of the competitor,
including voice, signals, remounting, catching a horse inside the ring, etc., is illegal assistance.
Except in the case of an error, any outside assistance provided by or authorized by a member of
the Jury will result in elimination. A member of the Jury may not discuss a ride with a competitor
before the bell or after the final salute.

You need to brush up on the rules. You are quoting them for when the rider is IN THE RING RIDING THEIR TEST. Outside the ring is not being scored, is not a part of the test, and coaching is allowed. There is nothing that says your reader cannot be a coach and cannot coach you before you enter the ring and start riding your test. There's nothing that says they cannot talk to you when your test is done, either. When you are riding the actual test, that's when they can only read the test as written.

Bogey2
May. 22, 2012, 07:47 PM
Velvet is correct. You may coach outside the arena. We usually start reading once the bell is rung and then stop coaching.

Behind the 8 Ball
May. 22, 2012, 09:00 PM
Not for nothing but if you still need that much coaching as you wait for the bell, perhaps you are not really ready to head down the center line?

A whispered reminder to smile or breathe or relax - fine, but "go go go, tap tap tap" ? Legal? - yup. Couth? not so much.

mbm
May. 22, 2012, 11:22 PM
kind of related - but can we PULEEZE go back to the time - eons ago - where a rider didnt need a caller? it is so annoying to have to listen and have to listen to however many there are for however many rings are going!

so lame! learn your test for petes sake!

TrakHack
May. 22, 2012, 11:41 PM
kind of related - but can we PULEEZE go back to the time - eons ago - where a rider didnt need a caller? it is so annoying to have to listen and have to listen to however many there are for however many rings are going!

so lame! learn your test for petes sake!

Agree. I call tests for a friend if mine and I told her last weekend I think her rides would be better if she didn't use me (she got a 69 and change at second three, so it's not like she's a beginner). The mental preparation us different.

Bogey2
May. 23, 2012, 06:19 AM
mbm, do you show? I have the reader because I have a problem mixing the tests up occasionally...even after I read it right before going in. I think it's because I am practicing different pieces of different tests all week long.
I dont run through the tests on a constant basis, just once a week. I also dont have a full size arena which has challenges in itself.

AllWeatherGal
May. 23, 2012, 08:18 AM
Bell rang, we entered, mare found her brain and we did a decent test, for which we received a score of 52, the lowest score I've ever gotten. And believe me, I've ridden tests much more poorly than that one.

Judging from what other people told me, I'm sure the pre-test "performance" was taken into consideration. Now, I didn't expect brownie points for riding a mare in raging heat who was also herd-bound at her very first show. But I didn't expect to be penalized for what happened before we began our test.

I would have thought that if the pre-test behavior was taken into account it would have worked the other way, demonstrating that the two of you can pull it together and focus when there's work to be done.

I've sat with many a judge who has made a remark about "clearing her/his mind" at A. I've also sat with many a judge who was very busy writing final comments and saw one or two strides before A, when I would let them know the test was about to start.

Two other remarks I have ... one is, I'd love for "students ... to be absolutely courteous and respectful anytime they are anywhere near the judge." AND anyone else who is involved with the show as a participant, volunteer, staff, or friendly audience.

Another ... as a low-level ammie I always felt more secure having a reader but it didn't stop me from going off course, and I'm sure that listening for a reader affected my connection with my horse. Different people have different strategies.

mbm
May. 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
mbm, do you show? I have the reader because I have a problem mixing the tests up occasionally...even after I read it right before going in. I think it's because I am practicing different pieces of different tests all week long.
I dont run through the tests on a constant basis, just once a week. I also dont have a full size arena which has challenges in itself.

people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is just another dumbing down of the sport. while it is ok for schooling shows (maybe!) i just dont see how it is even allowed at bigger, rated shows.

learning your test is part of what you are being tested for! it would be like taking a test but having someone next to you telling you the answers..... ;)

Gloria
May. 23, 2012, 10:53 AM
Dumbing down the sport? Wow. What a great leap of faith, to equate riding with taking a written test. And I "thought" I were quite book smart. lol.

If dressage were that simple, in the sense that I would know how to ride if someone were to read the test for me, I won't be here blowing a big chunk of my money going to clinics!!!

Or, maybe, just maybe, I would much rather spend my energy actually riding, instead of proving to the world just how well I can memorize the tests.

If you want to omit the reader, more power to you; but don't even delude yourself thinking you are a greater rider just because you choose not to use one.

mp
May. 23, 2012, 12:44 PM
people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is just another dumbing down of the sport. while it is ok for schooling shows (maybe!) i just dont see how it is even allowed at bigger, rated shows.

learning your test is part of what you are being tested for! it would be like taking a test but having someone next to you telling you the answers..... ;)

You're amazing, mbm. Just amazing.

SillyHorse
May. 23, 2012, 12:48 PM
Well, I memorize my tests, "ride" them in my living room, walk them in the arena, and pretty much know them backwards, forwards, and from any mid-point on. None of that prevents me from having a brain fart in the ring. And if I am riding three or four tests in one day, forgive me if I need a bit of help keeping them straight. So if you don't want to use a reader, don't. But being judgmental about those who do isn't very nice.

Ghazzu
May. 23, 2012, 01:00 PM
people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is just another dumbing down of the sport. while it is ok for schooling shows (maybe!) i just dont see how it is even allowed at bigger, rated shows.

learning your test is part of what you are being tested for! it would be like taking a test but having someone next to you telling you the answers..... ;)


Well, I once "pinch read" for a rider who has ridden for the US team on multiple occasions, including the Olympics.

Has it occurred to you that someone might be riding multiple tests on multiple horses in a relatively short time frame?

Not at all the same thing as a low level ammy rider with one horse--who, IMHO, should be allowed to have a reader as well, because that's one less thing to be nervous about.

"Dumbing down" to me is intro tests at rated shows.

Behind the 8 Ball
May. 23, 2012, 01:10 PM
um, while I greatly enjoy the debate about reader versus no reader, wasn't the point of this thread the obnoxious yelling and shouting of the readers?

Readers vs Memorizers , perhaps a spin-off?

Back on track ladies, back on track

SillyHorse
May. 23, 2012, 01:13 PM
Are you a moderator? :confused:

Bogey2
May. 23, 2012, 01:25 PM
You're amazing, mbm. Just amazing.

funny, that was not the word I was thinking of to describe her:D

Behind the 8 Ball
May. 23, 2012, 01:26 PM
no, not a moderator but is it against the rules to request that we stay focused?

my apologies if I erred.

SillyHorse
May. 23, 2012, 01:30 PM
Threads often take on lives of their own and head off into strange and wonderful places. :lol:

KO
May. 23, 2012, 01:39 PM
people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is just another dumbing down of the sport. while it is ok for schooling shows (maybe!) i just dont see how it is even allowed at bigger, rated shows.

learning your test is part of what you are being tested for! it would be like taking a test but having someone next to you telling you the answers..... ;)

It is up to the TD and/or judge to determine if there is too much loud "coaching" going on by the caller before the rider enters the arena. If you were upset with what was happening in the ring next to you then you needed to go to the show office and talk to the TD.

But in response to the quote above: Even GP riders sometimes have tests called for them when they are riding horses at lower levels. Just sit ringside in Wellington when these folks are riding young horses at lower levels. I saw a number of BNTs with callers. Is that "dumbing down"? Why is an AA with show nerves any different? Most AA know their tests by heart at home but when they go down centerline at a show the first few times their minds go blank. No shame is having a caller the first few times.

dressurpferd01
May. 23, 2012, 01:43 PM
kind of related - but can we PULEEZE go back to the time - eons ago - where a rider didnt need a caller? it is so annoying to have to listen and have to listen to however many there are for however many rings are going!

so lame! learn your test for petes sake!

What a sanctimonious ...... you are. Try riding 5 horses at 3 or 4 different levels with 2 different tests per horse without a reader. Go ahead, I dare you. You're one of several neo-klassicists whose show record I'd LOVE to have a peek at.

mjhco
May. 23, 2012, 01:57 PM
people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is just another dumbing down of the sport. while it is ok for schooling shows (maybe!) i just dont see how it is even allowed at bigger, rated shows.

learning your test is part of what you are being tested for! it would be like taking a test but having someone next to you telling you the answers..... ;)

mbm, could you please describe your method for memorizing tests so you are certain to not make mistakes without a reader when you show 8 horses in 8 different test per day for three days straight?

I am sure we all would love to hear about your expertise in this matter.

BetterOffRed
May. 23, 2012, 02:02 PM
mbm, could you please describe your method for memorizing tests so you are certain to not make mistakes without a reader when you show 8 horses in 8 different test per day for three days straight?

I am sure we all would love to hear about your expertise in this matter.

DUH! She rides the tests from her arm chair....

katarine
May. 23, 2012, 02:41 PM
You're amazing, mbm. Just amazing.

MBM needs simply post a youtube of her riding a nice test in competition without a reader. I'd pay a dollar. Shoot, I'd give SLC a dollar if MBM would do that.

But I'm sure she's one of those 'camera challenged' riders, you know, or one who can't grasp the technology. She can ride 8 different tests on 10 different horses in 100 degree heat, but that whole Upload thing, eeeboy it's a humdinger.

I always have my tests called for me and have no issue tuning out other riders getting coached or their tests called. I dial in to what I am doing and pay it absolutely no attention.

mp
May. 23, 2012, 02:50 PM
funny, that was not the word I was thinking of to describe her:D

"Amazing" can cover a lot of ground. ;)

quietann
May. 23, 2012, 02:58 PM
mbm has been very clear for a while that she doesn't show.

That aside... I found having a reader to be very distracting. I have serious show nerves, yet somehow forgetting the test is not how they are expressed.

I've never ridden more than 3 tests in a day, though, and all training level, so I could see the use of a reader for people who are riding a lot of tests on different horses at different levels. The higher level tests (which I sometimes peek at, when I'm dreaming) get a lot more complicated.

NorCalDressage
May. 23, 2012, 03:27 PM
Here is the response to my question if the caller is allowed to coach or school the rider at ANY time (including before they enter at A)


Thank you for your email. I copied/pasted DR 122.1 below which explains that the reading of the test must start with the first movement. Coaching is not permitted by the reader – the reader may only read the test.



Per DR 122.1,

If test is announced, it is the responsibility of the competitor to arrange for a person to announce the test. Unless an exception is made by the judge, the announcing of the test must start with the first movement. Lateness and errors in announcing the ride will not relieve the rider from “error penalties”. Announcing the tests is limited to reading the movement as it is written once only. However, the repetition of reading of a movement is acceptable if there is reason to doubt that the rider heard the original call. Calling of these tests in a foreign language must receive prior consent of the show committee

and the Ground Jury. A competition cannot require competitors to use callers employed by the competition management.



I hope this is helpful.

Many thanks!

Hallye

Hallye Griffin

Director of Dressage, National Programs

United States Equestrian Federation, Inc.

Email: hgriffin@usef.org

Direct Dial: 859.225.6918

Fax: 859.231.6662

NorCalDressage
May. 23, 2012, 03:30 PM
I have NO problem with people having the test called. It's allowed and should not be looked down upon. Some people are riding multiple test on multiple horses. However, it should be done in a professional way that is respectful to the judge & other competitors (i.e. not in the way the OP experienced)

Ambitious Kate
May. 23, 2012, 03:32 PM
I haven't shown a dresage test yet, but will this summer. I used to show all the time hunter and jumper classes as a kid.

I have had to explain to my trainer that I just am not an aural learner - hearing something is hard for me to execute because I am so very visual - I have to transpose anything I hear into a visual picture, and this is especially so for riding a test. We worked on a test last lesson, for a up and coming trial show for her new "Baroque Equestrian Games" (The ridden tests are different from regular dressage tests). She broke down the test into segments for me and I just had a hard time going right, left or whatever, until I asked her to show me the page with the test on it - I scanned it quickly and executed the whole test right away after that. I still have trouble if in the middle of a movement I am told something - my brain stops to try to make it into an image and compare THAT to what I am doing and then I have to decide if I am making a mistake and what is it I was SUPPOSED to to; very odd. Its my style of learning.

So, for me, I can be handed a test, read it and do it. But if someone is calling it, It will throw me off, while I try to incorporate what they said into what I am going to be doing next. If that makes any sense.

So I will not have a reader. However, I can entirely understand the reasons why people DO need a reader - what if, unlike me, they are aural learners, and learn better by hearing? Also, as many pointed out, there are some with multiple horses and tests to ride at short notice, and a reader is very helpful.

Having a reader isn't in my mind skipping responsibility, it may well be that the rider is using a different part of their brain to execute the steps in the test. Neither is good or bad, right or wrong. Different learning styles often reflect the different ways our brains learn.

There may well be folks who depend on a reader who might find themselves able to memorize the tests if they can practice walking around the living room with someone reading the test to them. Some people may well need NOT to be reading/visual during the learning process and more aural feedback will help the test to 'kick in'.

beckzert
May. 23, 2012, 03:45 PM
Here is the response to my question if the caller is allowed to coach or school the rider at ANY time (including before they enter at A)


Thank you for your email. I copied/pasted DR 122.1 below which explains that the reading of the test must start with the first movement. Coaching is not permitted by the reader – the reader may only read the test.



Per DR 122.1,

If test is announced, it is the responsibility of the competitor to arrange for a person to announce the test. Unless an exception is made by the judge, the announcing of the test must start with the first movement. Lateness and errors in announcing the ride will not relieve the rider from “error penalties”. Announcing the tests is limited to reading the movement as it is written once only. However, the repetition of reading of a movement is acceptable if there is reason to doubt that the rider heard the original call. Calling of these tests in a foreign language must receive prior consent of the show committee

and the Ground Jury. A competition cannot require competitors to use callers employed by the competition management.



I hope this is helpful.

Many thanks!

Hallye

Hallye Griffin

Director of Dressage, National Programs

United States Equestrian Federation, Inc.

Email: hgriffin@usef.org

Direct Dial: 859.225.6918

Fax: 859.231.6662

Wow, if they really enforced this rule, a lot of people would get in trouble. I hate when annoying trainers try to teach right up until its time to enter the ring. Do your training at home!

I wonder how far this goes? When my friends and I read for each other we usually do a quick check with the person on the ground to make sure everything looks AOK before starting. This sometimes includes some tips like "Don't let your hands get too low". Do you think that is considered coaching? I don't think the judge would ever hear it because it's usually whispered, but I dont want to cheat...

Velvet
May. 23, 2012, 04:17 PM
Here is the response to my question if the caller is allowed to coach or school the rider at ANY time (including before they enter at A)


Thank you for your email. I copied/pasted DR 122.1 below which explains that the reading of the test must start with the first movement. Coaching is not permitted by the reader – the reader may only read the test.



Per DR 122.1,

If test is announced, it is the responsibility of the competitor to arrange for a person to announce the test. Unless an exception is made by the judge, the announcing of the test must start with the first movement. Lateness and errors in announcing the ride will not relieve the rider from “error penalties”. Announcing the tests is limited to reading the movement as it is written once only. However, the repetition of reading of a movement is acceptable if there is reason to doubt that the rider heard the original call. Calling of these tests in a foreign language must receive prior consent of the show committee

and the Ground Jury. A competition cannot require competitors to use callers employed by the competition management.



I hope this is helpful.

Many thanks!

Hallye

Hallye Griffin

Director of Dressage, National Programs

United States Equestrian Federation, Inc.

Email: hgriffin@usef.org

Direct Dial: 859.225.6918

Fax: 859.231.6662

Their reply is completely following in line with what we have all been saying. That the caller can say ANYTHING they want prior to the rider entering the ring and starting the test. The information you received backs us up 100%, not your position.

It is all about when the rider is in the ring and when they are not. NO JUDGING happens prior to the entrance of the rider in the ring.

:rolleyes: Why is that rule so difficult to understand? You are so far off the mark. Maybe you should call and talk to them. Then again, you just seem to want to be right, even when you're absolutely, 100% wrong.

Even in the reply they tried to clarify it for you. The test caller can only call the test WHEN THE RIDER IS PERFORMING THE TEST--which means in the ring. There is NOTHING that says they cannot coach or talk to the rider outside of the ring when the test has not started.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: So frustrating when people have no reading comprehension skills anymore. What is happening these days?

Guess it's hard to see the forest for all those darned trees...

NorCalDressage
May. 23, 2012, 04:26 PM
Velvet -

WTF is your problem?

Speaking of reading comprehension - as noted in my first sentence - my question to Hallye was SPECIFICALLY COACHING BEFORE THE RIDER ENTERS AT A - not once the rider has entered the court.

She answered my question very clearly. If you have a problem with her response, call & take it up with her.

NorCalDressage
May. 23, 2012, 04:28 PM
This was my exact email to her:

Hi there,

Looking for clarification on the rules of conduct for the person
calling/reading a test. Is the caller allowed to only be there for
reading the test, or is coaching allowed from the person doing the
calling before the horse enters A?

I see a lot of trainers coaching before the rider actually enters A,
but also have seen judges reprimand callers for doing this. Hoping
you can provide clarification on what exactly they can or cannot do.

Thanks for your time,

Velvet
May. 23, 2012, 04:29 PM
*banging head on keyboard*

NorCal, my FRUITBAT problem is that your question was related to if the reader can coach prior to the rider entering in the ring. They responded by quoting the rules which says that the reader cannot coach when the rider is riding the test in the ring. Not about when they were not in the show ring riding their test. That was the reply you received.

:no:

Okay, I'm done. Someone else explain. Seems my words are not clear either.

enjoytheride
May. 23, 2012, 04:34 PM
I totally agree with Velvet. The person who responded quoted the rulebook which only mentions coaching the rider AFTER the test begins. The rule they sent you said nothing about coaching the rider BEFORE the test begins.

You asked the correct question but you got half of an answer.

Gloria
May. 23, 2012, 04:42 PM
Based on the quoted rule,

Before rider enters A: The caller/reader can say anything he/she pleases, including singing national anthem (though anyone contemplating such act should think twice, or thrice...;)

After rider enters A: Only the movements shall be called.

Velvet
May. 23, 2012, 04:46 PM
Based on the quoted rule,

Before rider enters A: The caller/reader can say anything he/she pleases, including singing national anthem (though anyone contemplating such act should think twice, or thrice...;)

After rider enters A: Only the movements shall be called.

Nice answer. :D I'll leave rule interpretation to you from now on. :lol:

CHT
May. 23, 2012, 05:02 PM
The letter makes it sound as if the reader can only read the test. Period. The rules quoted don't say that though. Perhaps it is left ambiguous so that the stewards can use their judgement.

I do think that in a multi-ring show the stewards would have grounds to reprimand someone for talking loudly in the ring, particularly while the judge is likely still marking comments, regardless of it is a reader or a spectator.

Gloria
May. 23, 2012, 05:21 PM
No. The letter says once the test starts, tests alone can be read/said/announced.

That means, before the test starts, all is freedom - now, we all know just like in any society, certain etiquete is observed and followed unanimously, which includes showing respect to judges and fellow competitors, and I'm sure judges have certain authority to remove anyone showing disturbing behaviors, even before the rider enters A.

mp
May. 23, 2012, 05:37 PM
Wow, if they really enforced this rule, a lot of people would get in trouble. I hate when annoying trainers try to teach right up until its time to enter the ring. Do your training at home!

I wonder how far this goes? When my friends and I read for each other we usually do a quick check with the person on the ground to make sure everything looks AOK before starting. This sometimes includes some tips like "Don't let your hands get too low". Do you think that is considered coaching? I don't think the judge would ever hear it because it's usually whispered, but I dont want to cheat...

My "coaching" consists of a quiet reminder as we walk toward the ring that I'll be standing opposite X and "you look great" if she passes right by me before the bell rings. If anyone could hear that besides the rider, they'd have to standing right next to me.

Oh no, I'm a cheater. :o

katarine
May. 23, 2012, 06:00 PM
The bell rings.

The rider rides behind their caller on their way to A

The caller says to the rider, as the rider passes behind them at B, 'breathe, you look great'.

Then the caller says "A, ENTER WORKING TROT, X HALT SALUTE.
Then the caller says nothing else except the rest of the test until the rider finishes their test AND exits the arena.

the question is:

Did the caller err in saying 'breathe, you look great', when she did?

Gloria
May. 23, 2012, 06:25 PM
Did the caller err in saying 'breathe, you look great', when she did?

No. "A test begins with the entry at A and ends after the final salute, as soon as the horse moves forward".

When the rider rides behind their caller on their way to A, the test has not started yet.

katarine
May. 23, 2012, 06:33 PM
Exactly, Gloria.

katarine
May. 23, 2012, 06:38 PM
Wow, if they really enforced this rule, a lot of people would get in trouble. I hate when annoying trainers try to teach right up until its time to enter the ring. Do your training at home!

I wonder how far this goes? When my friends and I read for each other we usually do a quick check with the person on the ground to make sure everything looks AOK before starting. This sometimes includes some tips like "Don't let your hands get too low". Do you think that is considered coaching? I don't think the judge would ever hear it because it's usually whispered, but I dont want to cheat...

It starts with the first movement.

Unless an exception is made by the judge, the announcing of the test must start with the first movement. ...Announcing the tests is limited to reading the movement as it is written once only. However, the repetition of reading of a movement is acceptable if there is reason to doubt that the rider heard the original call.

The caller may read the movements only as they are written. The announcing of the test starts with the first movement, which is always "A ENTER..." You can't say anything else at all, as the caller, except what's written.

This is not a hard concept. Or is it?

AllWeatherGal
May. 23, 2012, 08:32 PM
It's so frustrating when you ask a genuine question and get a canned answer that doesn't address the actual issue. Happens all the time to me at work. I want to pound sand sometimes when I say (pleasantly) "I understand that rule, but it doesn't address my specific question ..."

Reader turns into a reader when rider and horse go through the rails at A into the arena. Before that, it's theoretically anything goes. For example, it is permissible to have someone walk the horse (and rider) up TO A, but not into the arena.

Still ... it's darn rude to act like you're the only one in the atmosphere and trainers should pipe down if at all possible. It's just a fact that some people have voices that carry a long way. We could all benefit from developing a discerning ear. I find it very difficult, but worth the work.

mbm
May. 23, 2012, 09:29 PM
woah. guess i struck a nerve. lol!

it wasn't personal. i just think learning the tests is part of the sport <shrug> no one needed readers for decades and decades, so i have full faith that if it weren't allowed (again) most folks would be fine. (how *do* they do it in countries where it isnt allowed, anyway?)

i personally find it annoying - and honestly - how the heck is someone supposed to be able to tell their reader from another when 2 or 3 are reading at once?

Memorizing the test was at one point, part of the whole deal. And if you look most other countries dont allow readers..... (i dont think they allow callers in eventing dressage, do they? )

how riders learn each test for each level? probably studying?

as for me showing.... i show when i feel i have something useful to present.... and lately that has not been the case ;)

I am editing this to say, in a more serious tone, that i didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, and had no idea it was such a touchy subject.... while i feel as i do, i might of worded it a bit more PC :)

mbm
May. 23, 2012, 09:33 PM
What a sanctimonious ...... you are. Try riding 5 horses at 3 or 4 different levels with 2 different tests per horse without a reader. Go ahead, I dare you. You're one of several neo-klassicists whose show record I'd LOVE to have a peek at.

neo-klassisist ? because you dont like what i say? too funny!

daisyduke
May. 23, 2012, 10:05 PM
While I agree with most of your post, the judge's job is to score the ride. Not the pre-ride warm up or what the horse does before the bell rings.

Completely agree with this. I find it completely unprofessional and a conflict of interest for a judge to develop an opinion of a rider in the warmup. They are to judge the ride in the test only. The steward is the only professional, that can monitor or judge a warm up. A rider may discipline and ride completely different in the warm up than they would in the test itself. The judge scores the test, the steward monitors the warmup.

daisyduke
May. 23, 2012, 10:07 PM
Based on the quoted rule,

Before rider enters A: The caller/reader can say anything he/she pleases, including singing national anthem (though anyone contemplating such act should think twice, or thrice...;)

After rider enters A: Only the movements shall be called.

Too funny. I only hope I get to witness this once in my lifetime.

DonRobertoRollkurista
May. 23, 2012, 10:07 PM
To dressurpferd01. I will now have a sip of Cab and toast your observation. Bravo!

daisyduke
May. 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
What a sanctimonious ...... you are. Try riding 5 horses at 3 or 4 different levels with 2 different tests per horse without a reader. Go ahead, I dare you. You're one of several neo-klassicists whose show record I'd LOVE to have a peek at.

Not being judgmental and this is something that I could never do, but my trainer rides several horses at every show, from training level to PSG and would never use a reader. I personally, have never seen her go off course. I guess that is why she is deemed a professional. When we first started with her 10 years ago, she made it very clear that we had to memorize the tests.

katarine
May. 23, 2012, 10:20 PM
as for me showing.... i show when i feel i have something useful to present.... and lately that has not been the case ;)


Perhaps considering the same half-halt prior to posting on the board is in order. I don't mean that to hurt your feelings, it's just an observation.

Ghazzu
May. 23, 2012, 10:50 PM
woah. guess i struck a nerve. lol!

it wasn't personal. i just think learning the tests is part of the sport <shrug> no one needed readers for decades and decades, so i have full faith that if it weren't allowed (again) most folks would be fine.

The Olympian I read for was over 25 years ago...

Ldbgcoleman
May. 23, 2012, 11:01 PM
So Ive had three concussions and Im 50 the lyrics to a lot of bad seventies songs are all up there but no matter how hard I work on memorizing my tests if something unexpected happens The whole thing sloshes out of my brain so I have a caller but no coaching by the time Im ready to enter the arena it is what it is no last minute coaching is gonna make that much difference

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
May. 23, 2012, 11:09 PM
Is there a bit in the rules about how far from the ring "spectators" should stay? If there is, we could go on another 4 pages arguing about what constitutes a spectator.

Kinda sorta on that note, I have to point out there is no rule saying coaches (or spectators) need to be wearing any clothing at all. And yet, we almost invariably manage to rise to the occasion.

Some room for situational judgment should exist. Everything which is not expressly forbidden shouldn't necessarily be standard operating procedure - but if a horse is terrified to pass between the ogre's box and the ring, for instance, a quiet lead through by the reader shouldn't be an automatic shooting offense...

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 01:03 AM
The Olympian I read for was over 25 years ago...

yes, and dressage has been an Olympic sport since what 1920s ? (and i did say "eons ago" ;))

my comments were based on *just* watching someones lovely championship ride and having the video ruined by overlapping callers - it was just really annoying , for a once in a while reason , sure but nowadays it seems everyone does it... and what other sport is there where someone not participating is "helping"?? it just jarring is all.

As for my riding, there are videos and pics of me on facebook and youtube. i have zero to hide - am not a pro, and dont pretend to be one.

right now i have a 4 yo that i am hoping to show - maybe this summer or fall - - or maybe not. it depends on if i think we have something worthwhile to present to the judges.... pony of course would love the whole thing so i know he is voting for it :)

Bogey2
May. 24, 2012, 06:57 AM
having the video ruined by overlapping callers

ummmm...turn the sound off

flashwhitelock
May. 24, 2012, 08:56 AM
MBM- I have to disagree with you. I've worn many hats through the years and I have done dressage for decades and decades. I was the unusual kid at the time period. I never did the hunter thing back when dressage was almost unknown in the US. I rode one of the first barns to be a dressage and eventing barn and watched it grow.

There are absolutely times a test is appropriate to being read. Dyslexia, for one, is a good example. You may remember the test but you might not remember the order of the letters like E to B or is it B to E? the caller is a godsend to those with phenomic area memory problems. You can use the short term memory to compensate for problems in the long term memory. (thank you Yale for doing this research.)

Another good example is Chemobrain which is a very real phemomenon for those of us undergoing chemo.(there are more of us than you think in the horse world) There have been days I couldn't remember which way to turn to go home even when I've driven the same route for years. I had to ask my kids. If you think riding and showing isn't extremely important at a time like that, I beg to differ. If calling is allowed, calling it is.

The ability to concentrate on your own horse and not be distracted by outside stimulus is imperative for a good horse and rider. Learning to ignore the readers and coaches is one great example. If a loose dog or car horn causes your horse to be distracted, it's not a do over. ignoring readers and coaching is the same thing. After all, your horse is on your aids with you giving you 100% back to him, isn't it? Learning to concentrate is part of the sport; memorization ability is not.

Should people be causing an inconvenience for others, No but, sometimes it happens. To all who want the show to be perfect for them: Get over it, it's a horse show even when it's a dressage show. Don't help perpetuate the DQ myth. Be as polite as you can and just go forward.

SillyHorse
May. 24, 2012, 09:05 AM
I totally agree with Velvet. The person who responded quoted the rulebook which only mentions coaching the rider AFTER the test begins. The rule they sent you said nothing about coaching the rider BEFORE the test begins.

You asked the correct question but you got half of an answer.
Agree with this. The response from the USEF did not clearly answer the specific question. Amazing! :rolleyes:

Ghazzu
May. 24, 2012, 09:07 AM
yes, and dressage has been an Olympic sport since what 1920s ? (and i did say "eons ago" ;))

Actually, the word you used was "decades". Some orders of magnitude below "eons", I believe.

grayarabpony
May. 24, 2012, 09:36 AM
I am not a fan of loud coaching either but it's a part of showing. Not a fan of test reading either except in special circumstances.

I do think that if the rider is allowed "verbal commands" during a test the horse should too, at least at the lower levels. Discreetly, of course. ;)

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 10:57 AM
Actually, the word you used was "decades". Some orders of magnitude below "eons", I believe.


it's silly to argue about this, but i will say that my first post said "eons ago" implying that a loooong time ago reading wasn't heard of..... (ie when i first was riding dressage no one read tests.... ) then in another post i said decades and decades - i am fairly confident that both eons and multiples of decades are similar in the dressage world = a time lost in the mists of history lol!

flashwhitelock - sure, there are times when a reader might be warranted, but it seems nowadays that everyone uses them and it just gets a bit annoying to have to listen to them all as you watch a test.

I do agree that having to listen to a caller takes away from a riders concentration -which would affect the ride and the flip side to that is that if a rider has good concentration they wont hear all the callers - even if there were 10 of them....

But it *does* take away from the harmony of the sport for any spectator watching.... like the video i literally was just watching - a super lovely ride but there were those darn 3 callers! and while i can (and did) turn down the sound, on the day the spectators can't....and since the PTB want dressage to be a spectator sport - it really does detract from the beauty of the sport. and like i said - i believe that learning the test(s) is part of the whole deal.

but folks - dont freak out! i am a nobody with a unique POV... so i highly doubt my feelings or POVs are going to affect your enjoyment of dressage.

Velvet
May. 24, 2012, 11:19 AM
Is there a bit in the rules about how far from the ring "spectators" should stay? If there is, we could go on another 4 pages arguing about what constitutes a spectator.

Kinda sorta on that note, I have to point out there is no rule saying coaches (or spectators) need to be wearing any clothing at all. And yet, we almost invariably manage to rise to the occasion.



Yes, there are rules about how far away spectators are supposed to be--it's in the show manager section of the rule book.

On the no clothes thing, there are laws about that (for how you must dress in public), so that's also moot.

:D

Velvet
May. 24, 2012, 11:20 AM
But it *does* take away from the harmony of the sport for any spectator watching.... like the video i literally was just watching - a super lovely ride but there were those darn 3 callers! and while i can (and did) turn down the sound, on the day the spectators can't....and since the PTB want dressage to be a spectator sport - it really does detract from the beauty of the sport. and like i said - i believe that learning the test(s) is part of the whole deal.

I would have to disagree with this. I think the callers help the uneducated spectators understand what is going on in the test. Dead silence, at local shows, does not help them learn about dressage.

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 11:38 AM
out of curiosity - is there any other country that allows callers? i cant remember if Canada did when i was there....

katarine
May. 24, 2012, 11:55 AM
I would have to disagree with this. I think the callers help the uneducated spectators understand what is going on in the test. Dead silence, at local shows, does not help them learn about dressage.

Yep- I like the caller because I may have just walked up and I don't know what they are riding. If the caller tells me, I can prepare my eye and my brain. Particularly if it's something I have trouble with myself.

MBM's not showing, and not at the show, just ill with youtube. got it.

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 12:02 PM
just to be clear: i happen to be watching a lovely lovely ride of a stallion i am considering and this thread popped up right after i watched that vid. In that vid there were 3 callers and it was a mish mash and not very appealing.

Katarine - you are more than welcome to come hang out and meet me and watch me ride if it will make you feel better about my comments? Heck, any of you are welcome :) I know for *sure* pony would love the extra attention! lol!

Velvet
May. 24, 2012, 01:06 PM
Katarine - you are more than welcome to come hang out and meet me and watch me ride if it will make you feel better about my comments? Heck, any of you are welcome :) I know for *sure* pony would love the extra attention! lol!

If you really do live in wine country, you may end up with more takers than you'd want! :lol:

CHT
May. 24, 2012, 02:01 PM
out of curiosity - is there any other country that allows callers? i cant remember if Canada did when i was there....

Canada allows callers/readers for most tests. I don't recall what they aren't allowed for....FEI and regions/Nationals perhaps? Rules are very slightly different.

I have never heard/seen a caller do more than read the test, and perhaps say "nice job" as the rider exits after their test...other than once when the naughty pony kept rearing and refusing to enter the ring.

I get too easily distracted by a caller, and prefer not to have one, but most of my students start out feeling comforted by my voice...although I think because I don't use a caller, they feel it is a goal they should work towards as well.

Bogey2
May. 24, 2012, 02:14 PM
again, mbm turn the sound OFF if you don't like it.

Velvet
May. 24, 2012, 02:50 PM
again, mbm turn the sound OFF if you don't like it.

:eek: For once I get to bring the margaritas and popcorn and can watch the party! :winkgrin:

Gloria
May. 24, 2012, 02:57 PM
again, mbm turn the sound OFF if you don't like it.

Ahh but mbm does not show, so the sound on/off is a moot point, isn't it? She just wants to complain to show how superior she is to the rest of us earthling:cool:

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2012, 03:45 PM
Ack... I need a caller at my home to even practice!

I would leave the free walk out of every test because apparently that is where I go AWOL even with a reader LOL... Lucky for my horse the judge will make us go back or she'd never get a break!

In my head I see the canter transitions and the trot movements.... If it were not for a caller we would have two gaits and one or two movements to show :lol:

I would LOVE it if my readers were coaches so they could give me some advice right before. Usually I have good friends instead because the coach is usually on a horse also (sigh).

If you've done USEF and breed shows you'd see how annoying coaches can really get :lol:

Rhiannonjk
May. 24, 2012, 05:41 PM
Having scribed for hundreds (thousands? I should have kept count!) of tests, in the judge's booth I have never been distracted by the caller. Before scribing, I always assumed it would be a distraction in the judge's booth. It was one of the things that surprised me the most.
But you know what does really distract things in the judge's booth? Going off-course. For the love of all that's holy, do whatever it takes to ride the test correctly.

In fact, I missed the callers at the horse trials where I scribed this past weekend, where the judge and I occasionally were sitting there wondering if the rider heard the bell. Sometimes it feels like the caller is a confirmation that the bell was heard, and that the rider is ready to enter the arena.

Bogey2
May. 24, 2012, 06:03 PM
For once I get to bring the margaritas and popcorn and can watch the party!

:lol: I am having a "Velvet" week, does it show?:D

Bogey2
May. 24, 2012, 06:06 PM
But you know what does really distract things in the judge's booth? Going off-course. For the love of all that's holy, do whatever it takes to ride the test correctly.

:winkgrin: I once ended up in the wrong direction at a schooling show...and stopped myself to tell the judge...she said she was enjoying my horse and did not notice I was backwards:lol: I screw up the damn free walk when it's on two diagonals:o

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 06:30 PM
Ahh but mbm does not show, so the sound on/off is a moot point, isn't it? She just wants to complain to show how superior she is to the rest of us earthling:cool:

mbm doesn't show right now because i have nothing exciting to show the judge and i think spending my hard earned cash on training is more important at this point in time. i guess i don't understand this stigma of those that chose to show only when they feel it is worth while? (or when they can afford it etc)

but, you too are more than welcome to come hang out and watch me ride if it will make you feel better about me? it wont be very exciting, right now i am riding my 4 yo. ;)

i am editing this to add: my 4 yo would LOVE to have visitors! he loves attention and will happily eat as many peppermints or carrots (or anything else for that matter!) you choose to bring. while you are here would you mind videoing or taking some pics?

mbm
May. 24, 2012, 06:31 PM
If you really do live in wine country, you may end up with more takers than you'd want! :lol:

i really do!! and today we are having hella winds! (i live in "The Gap" lol! ) the poor horses eyes are all icky because of it,and i have a scratch in one eye from a piece of sand!

daisyduke
May. 24, 2012, 08:56 PM
I would have to disagree with this. I think the callers help the uneducated spectators understand what is going on in the test. Dead silence, at local shows, does not help them learn about dressage.

Uneducated spectators have no idea where B, E, V, A or C is, so a reader calling the alphabet out just confuses them more. I agree that dead silence doesn't make dressage any more interesting or fun to watch. Only the spectator with an appreciation for the athleticism and concentration of both rider and equine, can appreciate the art of dressage. To the rest of the unfamiliar spectators.....it's just circles.

Gloria
May. 25, 2012, 10:11 AM
mbm doesn't show right now because i have nothing exciting to show the judge and i think spending my hard earned cash on training is more important at this point in time. i guess i don't understand this stigma of those that chose to show only when they feel it is worth while? (or when they can afford it etc)

but, you too are more than welcome to come hang out and watch me ride if it will make you feel better about me? it wont be very exciting, right now i am riding my 4 yo. ;)

i am editing this to add: my 4 yo would LOVE to have visitors! he loves attention and will happily eat as many peppermints or carrots (or anything else for that matter!) you choose to bring. while you are here would you mind videoing or taking some pics?

Dear, it doesn't matter why you show, or why you don't show. That is purely your own decision. Plenty of great riders/trainers don't show. That does not dimish my respect toward them one bit.

I have huge problem, however, when someone who is apparently lacking relavant experience tries to boost her own self-esteem by belittling others. That might not be your intention but it surely comes across as such.

mbm
May. 25, 2012, 10:30 AM
having & voicing an independent opinion is not belittling others - and honestly I had no idea that callers were the 3rd rail of dressage.

You can continue to be offended by my POV if you wish. seems a bit silly and a waste of brain space to me.

again, you are more than welcome to come meet me and watch me ride since you and others seem to think i cant/don't ride.

i used to think i was pretty hot shit when i was a kid (back before the dinosaurs) , but nowadays i know that i have so much to learn and many more horses to go to reach where I want to be :)

katarine
May. 25, 2012, 10:37 AM
Uneducated spectators have no idea where B, E, V, A or C is, so a reader calling the alphabet out just confuses them more. I agree that dead silence doesn't make dressage any more interesting or fun to watch. Only the spectator with an appreciation for the athleticism and concentration of both rider and equine, can appreciate the art of dressage. To the rest of the unfamiliar spectators.....it's just circles.

Spectators with the gift of sight quickly discern that the big letters placed along the rail are the letters referenced by the caller. Blind spectators? well, I suppose it's just hoofbeats.

No wonder dressage has such a snootastic reputation. Next up, porta potties at shows: Oh, the horrors.

mp
May. 25, 2012, 10:46 AM
having & voicing an independent opinion is not belittling others


people, including me, have shown for decades without readers.

readers is [sic] just another dumbing down of the sport.

Nope. Nothing about that is belittling. :rolleyes:

alibi_18
May. 25, 2012, 10:49 AM
Canada allows callers/readers for most tests. I don't recall what they aren't allowed for....FEI and regions/Nationals perhaps? Rules are very slightly different.

As per Canada's dressage rules :

- Any assistance around the competition arena prior to
entering at A is not considered unauthorized assistance.

- All EC tests may be called during the competition except at Gold and Silver Championships when all tests must be ridden from memory.

-All FEI tests and all freestyle tests must be ridden from memory

and I add this one because I didn't know! (I'm sure I read some movement of a test more than twice for some of my friends! LoL)

- Calling the tests is limited to reading the movement a maximum of twice without adding anything else which might assist the rider. Failure to comply with this ruling will involve elimination of the competitor.

I just looked at the USEF rules and it is the same, except from the Para-Equestrian folks who can obviously have special needs.

Gloria
May. 25, 2012, 11:19 AM
My husband is not a rider, but he is my greatest support. He grooms, braids, trailers, video tape, and do whatever that comes with showing. He sits and listens to the instructor at my clinics so he is actually quite knowlegeable about dressage, at least on intellectual level. Stilll, he often laments when riders don't have a reader: he can't figure out what the hell he was watching - is it a leg yield, or the horse is simply drifting; is it supposed to be a 15 meter circle, or the rider simply can't make it 10? and so on and so forth. At least with a reader, he gets an idea what the rider is supposed to do.

Even educated spectators can benefit from readers. Why? Nobody, unless you are Data, or are endowed with eidetic memory, can memorize all tests from Into A to Grand Prix, with all movements changed every four years.

If we all know automatically what the rider/horse are supposed to be doing, the judges will not need riders to submit their free style movements, and riders will not be required to follow the choreography. All, including judges, will just "automatically" know.

<Edit> Thanks to Janet, who points out the inaccuracy in my above statement. I was reading the rule incorrectly. Riders do NOT need to submit written choreography. This free style example is a lousy one.. I will need to think of another better fitted example. sigh<Edit>
Riders omit readers for their own benefits (some gets distracted by the readers), not for the beneift of spectators.

witherbee
May. 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Having a reader is a really strange thing for me. I rely on a reader as I am new to dressage and have been very nervous my first 3 shows, but it's almost as if the reader is not there. I have no actual memory of her voice, so the test just flows (and believe me, I did not have the tests memorized at first, so it is just some strange zone of consciousness!). I also do not notice any sounds outside of the ring I am in when I am showing.

I have been lucky to have my trainer read for me and one other person - they were great! My trainer would never loudly coach me in the warmup or before we Enter at A - she is a calming influence on me for sure! I was going to read for a friend at the last show, but was very nervous that I would mess up her test as I have not done it before. Thankfully she found someone else, but I'll have to practice so that I can read in the future if needed.

I do think that it does not paint a good picture if a coach is training loudly right before a rider enters the ring - there should not be need for that at the show and personally my coach would never do it at home either!

NorCalDressage
May. 25, 2012, 01:49 PM
I sent this follow up question to Hallye

"Hallye,

Thank you. Sorry I just need to clarify again - we are talking before the test starts - while rider is riding around the court (before entering at A) that no coaching is allowed right?"

Her response was:
Hi,
Sorry for not answering all of your question the first time! The reader is in the arena to read the test and per DR 122.1, ‘the announcing of the test must start with the first movement.’ So – no, the rule does not permit the reader to coach the rider as they are going around the arena. If we did allow this, then it would be similar to allowing riders to have their coach come into the arena. Make sense?

Thanks!

Hallye


My comments: Not posting an opinion of that, but just posting the clarification/interpretation of the rule from USEF. Obviously "before A" coaching happens somewhat frequently, and most judges probably don't mind as long as it is done quietly/discreetly.

SillyHorse
May. 25, 2012, 02:03 PM
Uneducated spectators have no idea where B, E, V, A or C is, so a reader calling the alphabet out just confuses them more.
Maybe in Stupidland. :lol:

beckzert
May. 25, 2012, 02:50 PM
I sent this follow up question to Hallye

"Hallye,

Thank you. Sorry I just need to clarify again - we are talking before the test starts - while rider is riding around the court (before entering at A) that no coaching is allowed right?"

Her response was:
Hi,
Sorry for not answering all of your question the first time! The reader is in the arena to read the test and per DR 122.1, ‘the announcing of the test must start with the first movement.’ So – no, the rule does not permit the reader to coach the rider as they are going around the arena. If we did allow this, then it would be similar to allowing riders to have their coach come into the arena. Make sense?

Thanks!

Hallye


My comments: Not posting an opinion of that, but just posting the clarification/interpretation of the rule from USEF. Obviously "before A" coaching happens somewhat frequently, and most judges probably don't mind as long as it is done quietly/discreetly.

We have a really horrible young rider trainer in our arena who relentlessly screams at her students both in the warm up and usually continues to do the same as they are waiting to go in for their test, but she whispers it at least. She says really mean things like, "If I'd known you were going to ride so badly, I wouldn't have even bothered to show up today." Not kidding, heard it in the warm up ring while I was coaching someone else. Oh, and the girl was 13 and it was her first show ever. I might make a copy of that page in the rule book and slide it under the TD's nose the next time I'm at a show that she's "coaching" at. While I'm thinking there is some room for interpretation in that rule, if we can get her to stop, I'm pretty sure every judge, trainer, competitor, and spectator would be thankful.

Janet
May. 25, 2012, 03:11 PM
If we all know automatically what the rider/horse are supposed to be doing, the judges will not need riders to submit their free style movements, and riders will not be required to follow the choreography. All, including judges, will just "automatically" know.

You sure about that?

Rule DR 129.4 says

4. Riders are not required to submit a written copy of the ride.

Except for Para-Equestrian tests where DR122.4.r says

f. If radio communication is used, a copy of the written choreography must be given to the
Technical Delegate or their designee who will monitor the reader and report to the judge if
unauthorized assistance is given to the rider.

Janet
May. 25, 2012, 03:27 PM
Actually, the word you used was "decades". Some orders of magnitude below "eons", I believe.
I agree that when used informally, "eons" are several orders of magnitude longer than decades (e.g., at least 100, and probably 1000, years).

When used formally, it is MUCH longer thatn that

Janet
May. 25, 2012, 03:28 PM
As per Canada's dressage rules :

- Any assistance around the competition arena prior to
entering at A is not considered unauthorized assistance.

- ...
I just looked at the USEF rules and it is the same, except from the Para-Equestrian folks who can obviously have special needs.

I can't find anything actually like that in the USEF rules. Can you point me to it?

Gloria
May. 25, 2012, 03:54 PM
You sure about that?

Rule DR 129.4 says


Except for Para-Equestrian tests where DR122.4.r says


a. In FEI Level Freestyles, the competitor must include all gaits and movements required on the
FEI score sheet at the level shown. Current FEI rules apply. Failure to include required movements
will result in a zero (0) score on the appropriate line.

Janet
May. 25, 2012, 04:00 PM
a. In FEI Level Freestyles, the competitor must include all gaits and movements required on the
FEI score sheet at the level shown. Current FEI rules apply. Failure to include required movements
will result in a zero (0) score on the appropriate line.
Yes,

That says that each of the required movements must be shown.

Each level has a specific list of required movements.

It is up to the judge to determine WHICH required movement you are currently demonstrating.


It says NOTHING about the choreography.

It says NOTHING about giving anybody a copy of the choreography.

Have you ever looked at a Freestyle scorsheet?

mp
May. 25, 2012, 04:01 PM
I sent this follow up question to Hallye

"Hallye,

Thank you. Sorry I just need to clarify again - we are talking before the test starts - while rider is riding around the court (before entering at A) that no coaching is allowed right?"

Her response was:
Hi,
Sorry for not answering all of your question the first time! The reader is in the arena to read the test and per DR 122.1, ‘the announcing of the test must start with the first movement.’ So – no, the rule does not permit the reader to coach the rider as they are going around the arena. If we did allow this, then it would be similar to allowing riders to have their coach come into the arena. Make sense?

Thanks!

Hallye


My comments: Not posting an opinion of that, but just posting the clarification/interpretation of the rule from USEF. Obviously "before A" coaching happens somewhat frequently, and most judges probably don't mind as long as it is done quietly/discreetly.

Thanks for following up and getting the whole answer, NorCal. However, I will continue to offer encouragement sotto voce. ;)

Gloria
May. 25, 2012, 04:04 PM
Well, Janet, I stand corrected. That does not change my position that a reader is helpful for spectators though - it just shows I picked a lousy example, and perhaps need to read the rules a bit more carefully.

Janet
May. 25, 2012, 04:09 PM
No problem.

I agree that the rules for freestyles are pretty independant of whether or not readers are helpful to spectators, especially new ones.

I just didn't want people thinking that riders were handing in Freestyle choreographies.

Gloria
May. 25, 2012, 04:19 PM
Sure. The whole rule thing is confusing as is without some of us meddling the muddy water further. lol. I edited my post. Thanks for the correction.

Kaluna
May. 25, 2012, 04:50 PM
Their reply is completely following in line with what we have all been saying. That the caller can say ANYTHING they want prior to the rider entering the ring and starting the test. The information you received backs us up 100%, not your position.

It is all about when the rider is in the ring and when they are not. NO JUDGING happens prior to the entrance of the rider in the ring.

:rolleyes: Why is that rule so difficult to understand? You are so far off the mark. Maybe you should call and talk to them. Then again, you just seem to want to be right, even when you're absolutely, 100% wrong.

Even in the reply they tried to clarify it for you. The test caller can only call the test WHEN THE RIDER IS PERFORMING THE TEST--which means in the ring. There is NOTHING that says they cannot coach or talk to the rider outside of the ring when the test has not started.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: So frustrating when people have no reading comprehension skills anymore. What is happening these days?

Guess it's hard to see the forest for all those darned trees...

I think you owe someone an apoooooooolooogy....

mbm
May. 26, 2012, 12:19 AM
what the heck do you all think the world of dressage did before "readers" were allowed? people *did* learn as many tests as they needed..... and it used to be 4 tests per level not three... (altho there didn't used to be training level)...

if spectators want to know what is being ridden why don't they download the tests to their iphones, of carry an omnibus?

while i try very hard not to touch the 3rd rail i cant help but think people are really not expecting much of themselves - really MOST folks *could* learn the tests if they tried.... doncha think?

I guess i just think people are smarter than they give themselves credit for....

SillyHorse
May. 26, 2012, 07:54 AM
mbm.
If you would read the responses rather than just spin around in your own constricted thoughts, you would know that most folks not only "*could*" but DO learn their tests. Do you really think that people who use readers are hearing the tests for the first time and are relying on the readers to tell them what the next movement is? I suppose it has happened, but the responses here tell a different story and explain (for those whose minds are available for learning) why most people who use readers do so.

alibi_18
May. 26, 2012, 08:06 AM
I can't find anything actually like that in the USEF rules. Can you point me to it?

I absolutely can't!

Sorry. I read the USeF rules a bit in diagonal...and it is not the same!!! Both our rules book are using quite the same phrasing and all but...the Canadian one is, IMo, clearer and more complete. :winkgrin:

alibi_18
May. 26, 2012, 09:06 AM
what the heck do you all think the world of dressage did before "readers" were allowed?..

What makes you think that "readers" were once not allowed?

Janet
May. 26, 2012, 12:09 PM
what the heck do you all think the world of dressage did before "readers" were allowed?

When was this?

Not disagreeing, just asking.

Janet
May. 26, 2012, 12:13 PM
I absolutely can't!

Sorry. I read the USeF rules a bit in diagonal...and it is not the same!!! Both our rules book are using quite the same phrasing and all but...the Canadian one is, IMo, clearer and more complete. :winkgrin:
I agree. The Canadian wording is clearer. The US wording implies the same thing ("unauthorized assistance" doesn't start until you enter at A), but is not explicit, as illustrated by the response from USEF.

Janet
May. 26, 2012, 12:26 PM
mbm.
Do you really think that people who use readers are hearing the tests for the first time and are relying on the readers to tell them what the next movement is? I suppose it has happened, ...
Happened to me once.

It was a "new test" year, and the USEA/USEF was late in getting out the new Eventing dressage tests. Therefore they went into effect April 1 instead of Dec 1.

An unrecognized Combined Test (in March) put out two versions of the prize list, one listing the OLD tests, one listing the NEW tests (which were not supposed to go into effect yet).

The prize list _I_ had said they were (correctly) using the OLD tests, but another prize list said they were using the NEW tests. At the show, it turned out they were using the NEW tests.

I was the first at my level, so nobody else to watch. I entered the ring, turned the wrong way (for the new test) and had the whistle blown.

We figured out what was going on. Because the show was at fault, they had someone read me the test (even though normally there are no readers in Eventing).

That was VERY interesting!!!

SillyHorse
May. 26, 2012, 07:20 PM
Holy smokes! I think "interesting" doesn't come close. :lol:

J-Lu
May. 26, 2012, 07:41 PM
To th OP, I also thought that coaching wasn't allowed by the reader, and that the reader was only allowed to read the test (not coach). Huh.

mbm, Why do you care so much? I often have a reader as a back-up in case I forget something. I sometimes forget where the stretchy or release circles are placed. I'd rather have deductions come from my riding/my horse than a silly brain fart. It's hard to keep all of the tests in one's head. At the very least, I love having the voice of a friend or trainer in the background of my test, and having them stand at the arena.

Does this dumb-down dressage? Please. Does this make me not smart? Oh brother.

NOMIOMI1
May. 26, 2012, 08:10 PM
Although it is a bit puristic which I tend to lean towards a bit here and there... (restoration of the discipline... Power to the people LOL Ok just kidding), I DO see mbm's point in terms of learning the test enough to NOT need one.

It is nice to fall back on them but I will admit that sometimes I do NOT have them down enough and so maybe I SHOULD attempt sans reader to ask more of myself and my memory at times :)

Liebe-ist-Krieg
May. 26, 2012, 10:25 PM
Memorizing the test was at one point, part of the whole deal. And if you look most other countries dont allow readers..... (i dont think they allow callers in eventing dressage, do they? )


No callers in Eventing, but I did see some callers at local dressage shows in Holland FWIW

dressurpferd01
May. 26, 2012, 11:47 PM
Although it is a bit puristic which I tend to lean towards a bit here and there... (restoration of the discipline... Power to the people LOL Ok just kidding), I DO see mbm's point in terms of learning the test enough to NOT need one.

It is nice to fall back on them but I will admit that sometimes I do NOT have them down enough and so maybe I SHOULD attempt sans reader to ask more of myself and my memory at times :)

That's all well and good, until you're a trainer riding 5 Horses in two tests each and each at a different level. D you really expect someon to memorize 10 tests with only 30-45 mins between tests?

netg
May. 27, 2012, 12:48 AM
Funny, I always thought dressage tests were to test the training of your horse, not your memory. I missed the dressage memorization classes in school, apparently.


Seriously, though - if readers weren't allowed, I would manage. But since they are and I'm usually dealing with acrobatics from my horse, it's nice to not think about what movements are coming up and instead worry about keeping all four hooves as close to the ground as they're supposed to be.

Janet
May. 27, 2012, 03:35 PM
One POSSIBLE interpretatio of the US rules, in conjunction with the email for the USEF office, is as follows-

The "reader" is a special role, because the reader is allowed to stand closer to the ring than anyone else.

The "reader" is ONLY allowed to read the test, nothing else, while in the Reader's position.

Other people, including the "coach", standing the requisite distance from the ring (3 to 15 m depending on circumstances), can give advice, up until the rider "enters at A".

Again, a POSSIBLE interpretation.

NOMIOMI1
May. 27, 2012, 03:38 PM
That's all well and good, until you're a trainer riding 5 Horses in two tests each and each at a different level. D you really expect someon to memorize 10 tests with only 30-45 mins between tests?

Oh I agree, just was trying to look at it all objectively... I know, I know, it's a new look for me LOL

Do the young horse test in europe use readers? I don't believe they do and my last trainer would have 5-10 going at once sometimes so..

LaraNSpeedy
May. 30, 2012, 11:53 AM
Agree with several people. It is legal - and part of riding a dressage test is to keep focused. I remember at a rec show I was scribing - the alarm system went off in the center - two dressage tests were going on - one was upper level - one first level - the lights were blinking like strobe lights - and the two riders stayed on their tests without blinking (kudos to their horses!). I was very distracted personally!

I remember my horse nearly had a 70 percent 2nd level that I needed back 10 years ago - and the big problem score was the spook at X at the end when someone opened a red umbrella next to the arena. I guess I just needed to ride even better I told myself. It just goes with it.

THAT SAID - I take loads of juniors to dressage shows and I do read the test to the newer ones - most of the kids who have been with me for several years I dont read the tests for at all. I will coach if I am beside the arena before the bell rings but if there is another test going on beside us, I keep my words to a minimum and try to say it low. If the rider is that nervous or green or whatever - I usually give them only a few things to think about. Making the horse forward - in front of the leg - 'rounder' or etc etc - THAT was usually achieved in the warmup before coming in.

I think yelling it next to active arenas is a bit rude!

daisyduke
May. 30, 2012, 10:56 PM
Spectators with the gift of sight quickly discern that the big letters placed along the rail are the letters referenced by the caller. Blind spectators? well, I suppose it's just hoofbeats.

No wonder dressage has such a snootastic reputation. Next up, porta potties at shows: Oh, the horrors.

Well, I guess that is explained by the fact that everyone that comes and watches us is well into their senior years and the gift of sight is diminishing. My daughter's grandparents were watching her ride and didn't realize they were watching her ride. She did her final salute and they turned and asked me what time she was riding. So, kind of blind spectators. They've been watching for ten years and I'm sure they don't even realize there are letters around the arena. However, despite all of the above, they tell her how beautiful her and her horse are and take a thousand pictures.