What is your opinion in this situation ... [Archive]

Evalee Hunter

Nov. 26, 2001, 05:03 AM

I agree with pretty much everything that has been written & can see all sides.

However, I have a question: Is this a mare that kicks for a reason? Or is this mare one that simply kicks endlessly whether there is anything behind her or not? I have never seen a horse that kicks almost non-stop, but I have read about a few. If this is a mare that kicks for a reason--there is someone or something behind her that she doesn't like--then I might think she would change with the right environment. If this is a mare that kicks whether there is anything within range or not, I would think she has a screw loose & very possibly might pass it on. Of course, she might pass on shear meanness, too, but I consider you have a chance of heading off the behavioral problem in a foal if it is not rooted in some brain disorder.

And yes, you do have to think whether you would want the foal out there "representing" your breeding program.

Kafue

Nov. 26, 2001, 05:29 AM

I do not have anywhere near the experience in breeding as Spot or many others but from reading many threads and articles I have come to the conclusion that sporthorse breeders breed for temperament as much as conformation. I also think that this mare may change a lot if left in a field for a year but I also think that she will always go back to her old habits when under stress. The fact that Spot says from the outset that this line is known for kicking says it all. As a buyer I would not touch a horse that has a kicking problem - handling would be dangerous and showing impossible. This may be a horse that could be taken on by someone experienced in handling problem horses who wants a project on the understanding that she cannot be bred. Good luck with your decision Spot - it's a tough one.

Dunhorse

Nov. 26, 2001, 05:59 AM

I have been looking a long time for a big, true black TB mare whom is structurally sound (An affordable price is good too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

That said, I personally would pass on this mare.

Temperment is extremely importent to me. It makes life with a horse much, much easier if that horse has a good mind. Do you really want to deal with worring about this mare injuring someone day after day?

Also, as other posters have said, a horse with a bad temperment is most likely NOT going to have a good life. They usually get passed from owner to owner (usually to worse and worse situations) until they are eventually sent to slaughter.

This mare has already demonstrated that her natural response to a stressful situation is to become violent. (I am assuming that your friend would never abuse a horse, or employ anyone who would do so.) She will almost definately TEACH her foal to react in this way to people. It might be different if embryo trasfer was an option, and the said foal was born to a quiet mare. Unfortuately, as a TB, the violent mare must bear the foal herself.

I would react differently to this situation if the mare had come from an abusive situation. Then I might consider taking her, turning her out, and giving her time.

Good luck.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Dunhorse

Nov. 26, 2001, 06:01 AM

I did not read the last post before posting my response. (Spot must have been posting at the same time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

After reading about that line of horses, I would 100% pass on the mare. It sounds like they are genetically predisposed to a kicking problem. Even an embryo transplant foal has a possibility of displaying this trait.

Don't let Spot be blamed for the foals temperment.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

SpotsNChrome

Nov. 26, 2001, 07:07 AM

Free is always more expensive than not.

Anne

Nov. 26, 2001, 08:43 AM

Did she do anything herself on the track? Is there enough black type on her page to make her offspring commercially viable?

I wouldn't take her as a hunter breeding prospect, simply because sporthorse owners are (rightly so) MUCH less tolerant of a behavioural problem than racehorse people.

Spot, if you have the time and the space, take her and she if she mellows. If not, pass on her.

slc2

Nov. 26, 2001, 12:07 PM

i would never breed such a horse, and i would never trust such a horse to not harm people at the stable. she could easily kill someone, either a worker or some unsuspecting guest. you can never guarantee that everyone that crosses paths with the horse will be a knowledgeable or skilled person, and you can't take that risk.

as breeding stock she got bone chip at a young age with light racing and is a menace. she is therefore in my mind not breeding stock. she has two big problems to pass along to her offspring, she's a nutcase and she's extremely unsound early on. both are fairly heritable.

being a race horse is a very simple job. it is very clear what the horse is supposed to do, and basically i would not think that a horse that is in a lot of trouble at the track would be better off somewhere else where he'd get less work and more idle time and more food, and be handled less firmly and by less knowledgeable people. race track people if anything do usually know how to handle a rough horse. most of the rest of us would simply freeze in place if a horse came at us with both barrels, and in that sense she'd be going out of the frying pan and into the fire.

she will probably not improve in another environment at all, unless she is being abused or drugged and that is causing her behavior. and it doesn't sound like that is the case, since you said the stallion passes the kicking on to 99 per cent of his offspring.

we had a horse that kicked. not people (much) but walls. pretty constantly. and that horse was never sound. we put kicking chains on her and those made her sorer, but didn't stop her kicking. it's just something some horses do, but it is something that usually makes the horses unsound.

and i can't say i've ever seen a horse that had a behavior problem as many-faceted as this or as severe as this ever got any better.

someone always seems to decide it is someone else's fault and take these horses on. i've seen hopeful people get more than their hopes dashed with this sort of horse.

even abuse cases can be very hard to turn around. i took a spoiled, neglected and very sad appealing creature in when i was a teenager, only 17 at the time so god forgive me, i know better now.

i spent months gentling him, and got pretty badly hurt more than once in the process. got him so he was pretty good too. and then i had to sell him, and he was back to square one, and he hurt some people pretty bad. i never forgave myself. the horse should have been put down, and because of my ego i got someone else hurt. i learned my lesson then years ago, i'll never do that again.

another lady a lot older and better dressage trainer than me did the same with another horse, she was convinced she'd be the one to turn that horse around after everyone else had failed.

she failed too and she took a huge financial loss on the horse. i don't know where it went but i don't think it was put down.

and then the horse of a friend that did someone 18,000 dollars worth of reconstructive surgery to the face of the NEXt person who decided they knew how to fix that horse. owner didn't have the guts to put the horse down. now someone is disfigured and in pain for the rest of their life, and there will be more surgeries, that won't be the last one.

i've seen quite a few people who have TRIED to take some of these ''big handsome'' horses (they always seem to have some aspect of them that draws people in and makes the person believe THEY will be the one that will be smart enough and knowledgeable enough and compassionate enough to turn the horse around), and make them better, but to a large degree, ''how they are is how they are'', and that is just it.

even if she improved some, which is really all that is reasonable to expect at her age (habits are now set), she would still be extremely dangerous. and still you have the problem of the bone chips developing so early on which she will doubtless pass on the maturation pattern/bone conformation or other issues that caused that as well.

i would submit that the horse is not at all competitive, but is actually agressive and uncooperative to the extreme and a danger. i would strongly advise that the horse be put down as the people have indicated they wish to do.

i guess my only question is how would you feel if some passing kid got kicked to death by this mare while she was yours? it's worth considering, and so would be the (legal) liability of taking her on should she harm someone. it has happened before.

[This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:23 PM.]

[This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:26 PM.]

jbonifas

Nov. 26, 2001, 12:18 PM

It sounds very tempting but is it really worth the trouble? Why would you want to breed a mare with an attitude...I don't think it would improve w/motherhood. My last almost free mare cost me two stallion contracts before I finally gave her back. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 26, 2001, 12:56 PM

Sorry to be such a downer, but I wouldn't do it.

A good disposition is worth it's weight in gold.

My mare isn't specatacular, barely passed the CSHA qualifications, but has the most AMAZING temperament, a trait she has passed on to her (much prettier) filly. Failing all else (ridability, fertility etc.) the mare is an absolute pleasure to be around - and for that reason, we will have her until she dies. My husband loves her.

If she had the temperament this mare sounds like she has, she'd be gone in a minute - and I know that sounds harsh.

There are already too many unsound, unfit and insane horses in the world - why add to them?

I'm so sorry I couldn't be more positive.

My physics teacher in high school used to always say "They're ain't no free lunch" and in this case, it is true!

willowridge

Nov. 26, 2001, 01:49 PM

I think the owners are doing the right thing and the kind thing for her and everyone else. Do you really want her hanging from a meat hook? They could just get rid of her that way, at least they have the decency not to do that. Sorry but there are so many nice horses that do not have her temperment that need homes and don't get them, I just can't see breeding one with her history and background. Why continue a obviously dangerous and bad trait?

PaulaM

Nov. 26, 2001, 02:57 PM

Personally, if I was a stallion owner, I wouldn't want to risk his reputation on breeding to such a mare.

Dunhorse

Nov. 26, 2001, 06:20 PM

Spot,
The bay mare looks like a pretty lady. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif With that chin spot and the high white you described, she sounds like she is a sabino. Hooray. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MUCH better for your program. Good luck.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

Ninja

Nov. 26, 2001, 06:23 PM

You made the right choice in deciding not to breed the mare. I hate nothing more than bad tempered mares being bred just because they happen to be tall, pretty and a nice colour. It turns my stomach when people decide to breed their mare because they hate riding them. Hope this new mare works out for you.

KB3

Nov. 26, 2001, 07:48 PM

or would not take this mare. Yes, free is expensive as one other poster noticed. My only comment to this very good dialog would be, I have seen crazy mares turn into very good moms. Mother nature has a way that we do not understand or appreciate. I don't know that I would pass on her just because of her behavior in the barn and on the track. Those are stressful situations. The history of passing this trait on is worrisome, but again, is that nature or nuture??? The BIG question. If you have the time and the space, you might want to give this nice mare a chance. I always root for the underdog and have often times come up with a winner. Just giving a devils advocate posistion... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

SpotsNChrome

Nov. 27, 2001, 05:18 AM

And yet another of my altruisms:

A GOOD horseman knows when to say when.

Ninja

Nov. 27, 2001, 07:18 AM

Don't you think he deserved better? He was trained to buck and it's not his fault that he had a somewhat rough life. It really hurts me to read that you simply sent him for meat because he bucked you off. Could you have not GIVEN him away to somebody looking for a babysitter or companion horse. I understand that you don't want to see anybody else get hurt, but sending him for meat? Come on! That's unfair! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Keely

Nov. 27, 2001, 07:52 AM

While what's done is done, a bullet between the eyes or euthansia is often a kinder fate than the trip to slaughter.

Equine Connection

Nov. 27, 2001, 08:27 AM

As with some of the other posts, if you are aware (which it sounds like you are) that these undesirable and dangerous traits exist in her lineage, then I feel the most responsible action is not to breed her. Yes, you can possibly take her and see how she settles out in 6 months or so - to see if there is a change, BUT for the foal's sake and the stallion's sake, as well as her own, I would definitely recommend against breeding her. Some hope may exist that she will calm down in a different and more quiet environment. But then again, maybe not. I don't mean to dishearten you, but realistically, there are enough mediocre horses born into the world that come from parents who should not have been bred in the first place. This is not to say that the parents could not excel in other areas, such as performance. Not all horses should be bred. I think a disservice would be done to all if she is bred despite these problems that exist in her lineage, as well as in her own temperament. JMHO. Whatever your decision, very best wishes. And as another post mentioned, eventhough a mare contributes at least 50% to the equation, typically, the stallion is the one held responsible, and this would be very unfair in this case.

Hawk's Run Trakehners - home of the outstanding German Trakehner stallion, "Happy Hour"
http://www.happyhour1.com

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 27, 2001, 08:36 AM

Not to bash you, but I must agree that I would have put the nutcase down rather than send him for meat. Not really his fault he got into that predicament, he was low cost to begin with, and it would have been a much better end.

HAVING SAID THAT -

I commend you for posting your story. Not many people like to admit defeat.

Evalee Hunter

Nov. 27, 2001, 10:05 AM

Spot, I have NO problem with horses being eaten. I wouldn't eat a horse, but I agree with you, if I eat a cow or a lamb or a pig, who am I to criticize someone who eats a horse?

Having said that, I have 2 problems with horses being sent to slaughter: 1. If the horse is to reach slaughter via auction (in this area, New Holland, PA) anyone can buy it. I don't know of ANY way to guarantee the horse goes to slaughter. Even if it is sold directly to the killer truck, the driver can choose to resell it. Thus, the only way to ensure a dangerous horse does not continue to be a danger is to euthanize it. 2. I am concerned about inhumane treatment on the way to slaughter. Here, horses sold for slaughter in PA must be trailered through New York State (a long trip) to Canada to slaughter. Horrible, horrible things happen--horses freeze to death in winter; truck floors give way & horses die being dragged down the highway or have their legs chewed off by the road; horses go down during transport & are trampled; horses are forced into double decker trucks which are so low the horse cannot stand up with its legs straight let alone put its head up.

I hope you were able to place the horse directly at the slaughter house. If so, I have no problem. However, the transport issues horrify me & all the ones I mentioned HAVE HAPPENED & ARE DOCUMENTED.

The New York State Police continually stop tractor trailer loads of horse bound for slaughter on I-81 north as they try to enforce the humane laws that exist. Unfortunately, there is so much money to be made that the same truckers are stopped & taken to court & found guilty & fined over & over again. & then they do it again.

Also, in this area a horse that is euthanized on a farm (if euthanized correctly & with planning) can then go to the local hunt to feed the dogs. In some cases the huntsmen will come & butcher up. Otherwise, a rendering plant will take the body. Thus, burial may not be an issue, unless you don't want the body to go to the dogs or the rendering plant.

Quinn

Nov. 27, 2001, 11:10 AM

Didn't want to touch this one but can't stop myself......

An animal being euthanized by the humane society or an animal shelter are done so in a pain free manner. An animal being sent to slaughter is an entirely different story from the moment they get on the "meat wagon" to the moment they walk into the rendering plant. My Vet always referred to me as "unrealistic in my thoughts." He felt I was being an idealist UNTIL he went to the Owen Sound, Ontario facility and watched the process. He now encourages all of his clients to euthanize at home BEFORE sending them off. In my humble opinion, the $500-700 you receive can't compensate for the utter agony they experience. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JennieColangelo

Nov. 27, 2001, 11:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I hope you were able to place the horse directly at the slaughter house. If so, I have no problem. However, the transport issues horrify me & all the ones I mentioned HAVE HAPPENED & ARE DOCUMENTED.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree... i've seen so many horses that have suffered so much on the "long ride". I have no problem with horses being eaten. Wouldn't do it myself, but that's just cause those are the animals i love with all my heart.. I don't lay down in the straw with the chickens and cows, but I feel that the things these horses have to endure on the trailerdie, where they are packed like they are already slaughtered onto insufficient trailers, and despite some of them having injuries that would make you shiver, the drivers dont care.

I was at New Holland a few monthes ago, and I'm sorry, but that whole thing they passed that the horses can't have certain problems is bull. I saw a horse with an open eye socket, freely bleeding.

Just thought I'd give my two cents.

Thanks,
Jennie

Lisamarie8

Nov. 27, 2001, 12:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Posted by Spot:
I fail to understand why it is so wrong to recoup some of the money spent on this horse, when his ultimate end is going to be the same ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because in my opinion a horse going to slaughter is inhumane and cruel. I have met evil horses, horses that i jokingly said would put an Alpo sticker on myself...however, it had come down to it i couldn't BARE to send a horse to slaughter. I love them all too much, even the "rotten" ones (~disclaimer~ I'm not saying you DON'T love horses, i'm just stating my feelings) . The end results may be the same, but the roads to those results are the different as dying in your sleep and being beat to death.

I agree with Quinn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> $500-700 you receive can't compensate for the utter agony they experience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

--Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

[This message was edited by lisamarie8 on Nov. 27, 2001 at 04:26 PM.]

TrakHack

Nov. 27, 2001, 02:32 PM

Hmm, this is interesting...

As a vegetarian who has never dumped an animal at a shelter, I'm with Spot here. I understand that we all love horses, but I'm pretty sure that the same atrocities horses going to slaughter face are the same the cattle, sheep, pigs, what have you experience as well. Where does one draw the line, if at all? Who are we to say a horse's life is more valuable than a pig's?

On the other topic, of breeding the mare, I recently bought an unspectacular, conformationally imperfect, plain jane chestnut APHA breeding stock mare because she has an amazing temperament. I have heard breed judges comment about mares that can't be ridden, have horrible temperaments, aren't sound, etc. etc., and so the owner figures "I'll just breed her". Someone reading this probably knows who originally said "Think of the mare as a copier, and the stallion as the "start" button." I think the key component to successful breeding programs is quality mares. Of course, this is jmho.

SpotsNChrome

Nov. 27, 2001, 03:17 PM

You got the jist of what I was saying and I stand by it to this day, having had a similar situation with a mare who i bought and wouldnt load. After HER fractured skull, cuts etc. i made the vow....know when to say when. you can not save every creature. Sometimes horses are in our lives for different reasons. Some people need to learn how to say no. Some need to learn how to be aggresssive, assertive, definitive, or learn how to get mad. Or some need to learn how to be patient, softer, more savvy, trickier.

I probably would have done just what you did...but gosh after watching the rodeo finals on TV could you imagine what that horse would bring on the bucking circuit? They seek those kind out like gold! (Just musing....)

In The Gate

Nov. 27, 2001, 05:30 PM

She said earlier he was so wild he was rejected /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif from the rodeo circut.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Rebelspi

Nov. 27, 2001, 07:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
An animal being euthanized by the humane society or an animal shelter are done so in a pain free manner. An animal being sent to slaughter is an entirely different story from the moment they get on the "meat wagon" to the moment they walk into the rendering plant. In my humble opinion, the $500-700 you receive can't compensate for the utter agony they experience. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you might not have much sympathy for an animal that has severly harmed you, or others. for example, if someone's dog got out, and attacked your child, wouldn't your first thought be to have the dog dead no matter how? i dont know many people who would allow a nice death for an animal that has killed their child, or severely hurt them..

a horse youve had for 30 years holds a different place in your mind and heart, whereas a horse who you TRIED to save but couldnt, goes for meat...

whos to say he couldnt have exploded on the vet when he was going to insert the needle, or struck out at you as you were holding his lead... its factors like these that change decisions...

just my personal take on the situation i guess =/ i dont mean to be so blunt

Equine Connection

Nov. 28, 2001, 05:33 AM

Not sure how this thread got to eating horse meat and slaugher houses, BUT since it did...

The problem I have with the increased exportation of horse meat to Europe is that horse THEFT is on the rise in this country, partially due to this - and it's not just old, debilitated horses that are being taken. It's perfectly healthy, sound and happy horses being taken from someone who loves them very much. This, I definitely have a problem with. Not to mention, the totally inhumane road trip to the slaugher house. I had to put my lovely mare down 3 years ago due to a twisted colon (despite emergency surgery). It was absolutely the worst and most difficult and heart-wrenching thing I've ever done - but, there was no other choice in the matter. I had her cremated and brought her ashes home. A slaugher house would definitely not have even entered into our thought process.

If you think this mare can be "saved," so to speak with some time away from the track (because she certainly could calm down and change quite a bit away from that environment), she may come around and be able to lead a productive and happy life. However, it will take a great deal of patience, and there are not any guarantees. The end result may still be the same. There are other options for her besides breeding, which I still would not recommend at this point. Best wishes.

Hawk's Run Trakehners - home of the outstanding German Trakehner stallion, "Happy Hour"
http://www.happyhour1.com

Fred

Nov. 28, 2001, 06:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
Didn't want to touch this one but can't stop myself......

An animal being euthanized by the humane society or an animal shelter are done so in a pain free manner. An animal being sent to slaughter is an entirely different story from the moment they get on the "meat wagon" to the moment they walk into the rendering plant. My Vet always referred to me as "unrealistic in my thoughts." He felt I was being an idealist UNTIL he went to the Owen Sound, Ontario facility and watched the process. He now encourages all of his clients to euthanize at home BEFORE sending them off. In my humble opinion, the $500-700 you receive can't compensate for the utter agony they experience. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

even taking the horse directly to the slaughter house yourself, is a terrifying thing for the horse - the stench of blood, the scent of fear, the screams of the other animals - and plus often they are not even dead before they start slaughtering them.
I'm sorry, Spot - this is not an attack on you at all, you know how much I like and respect you personally - this is just something that I have to speak up on.
Putting them down on the farm is not fun, but it is very quick and painless for the horse. The vet usually gives them a massive dose of tranquilizer first, then the Euthanol. If they are standing, they will go down pretty fast, but that is because their brain function has shut down instantly, the legs buckle and they go down. It some times takes a bit longer for the motor system, muscles etc to stop twitching, but it is quiet, peacefull and as good as is can be ( which is to say, still awful for us who love them).
I'm trying to run a business too. But sending the horses for slaughter is just not an option.
Once they are dead, I agree that it doesn't really matter what happens to the body. It's nice if you have the place (and someone with a backhoe) to bury them, but if not, the deadstock people can be there as soon as the vet leaves.
I'm not being a hypocrite, Spotty, I understand what you are saying, but I feel the same way about my own body. Once I'm dead, I don't care what they do with my body. But I'd rather die at home, in my own bed, with the one who loves me holding me.......
and because we do it to chickens, cattle, sheep etc, doesn't make it right. Accepted practices are not necessarily good ones.

re that mare- Prosperous was not a good or commercial sire - he had that one fabulous hard knocking filly (Miss Prosperous I think?)- so for racing, you wouldn't get much.
Me being the optimist that I am, if you had the place to put her where she could have 24 hr/7 turnout in a quiet environment and had a chance to reevaluate her temperament before breeding season... at least you would feel that you had given her a chance.
Also re Prosperous - not to say anything negative about anyone, but he may not have been kept in the best "conducive to good behaviour" situation either....just a thought. good luck Spot -

and just to back up my rant with credentials - like Quinn - I have more old and crippled horses here than I have young ones... I'm serious about breeding great horses - but I also I know that keeping all these horse, from a "business" angle is not "smart". But there is more to life than money.
Making the decision to call the vet and end a life is a monumental one. I'm not God, nor do I want to be. I am facing this with a few of mine now, and it weighs heavily on me every moment. But as horse lovers first and foremost, and their caregivers (whether it is a business or not) our responsiblity to them is to ensure them a humane end to their lives.
sorry to go on so....

SaddleFitterVA

Nov. 28, 2001, 09:59 AM

I tried this...I even got the horse as a YEARLING. Had no training, whatsoever when I got it.

I had this horse 5 (yes FIVE) years before I finally gave up. She had made progress, and I cannot tell you how sick I got of hearing "try breeding her". This horse was a complete NUT, I did not want to pass these genes on.

I finally sold her, at auction, she did not go to meat, but she also didn't go to a kid. I can only hope that perhaps the woman who bought her was able to do something with her.

Oh, the vets said she was the best behaved horse they'd ever seen that came from this particular farm....most of them were "on two legs".

Life is too short to get killed by a bad horse. There are too many good ones around that need homes also.

Quinn

Nov. 28, 2001, 11:28 AM

I, for one, will answer. I don't think for a minute Fred missed the point. What it ultimately boils down to is, shipping is not an option. Period. Never has been and never will be. Period. I'm not just referring to the oldies I have. I am also referring to the not so great ones that for one reason or another just don't cut it. We have a great big TB who was bought for my husband. We were not made aware of the fact he was a biter. And I mean a chronic biter. Long story short, he no longer bites but we are very careful around him. If it came right down to it, he would have been put down. It is completely out of the question to ship from our farm. And yes, it is a business for us as well.

TrakHack

Nov. 28, 2001, 11:31 AM

I do enjoy the philosphical turn some of these threads take!

In your hypothetical question, I would say that your responsibilty/obligation is to do what is best for your customer, the horse, and yourself. By refunding the buyer's money and taking the horse back to the dealer, you're out $250, but you have preserved your repuatation (and economic viability) as a seller, and also quite possibly the buyer's life. A horse that is nutso to the extent we have been discussing here will likely have a miserable "life" of abuse, injury, drugs, and/or neglect. The obligation to the horse is that he ends up in the best situation for him, and crucify me if you will, but for some horses that means to not be amongst the living. To debate death by euthanization versus death by slaughter is worthwhile, but the end result is the same. With slaughter at least you (you being Spot, in the hypothetical) get back most of your money, the buyer gets back all of hers, and the horse's remains can actually be used for something that will benefit other animals (and I am including people in that group of animals). Do the ends justify the means? It's a decision you must make for yourself.

Heck, there's a reason I'm a vegetarian; I could not live with a clear conscience KNOWING what animals who are raised for slaughter go through so I can enjoy a steak. I personally think that if people had to hunt, kill, gut, field dress, and butcher their own meat, there would be more vegetarians. And better veggie burgers.

Fred

Nov. 28, 2001, 02:40 PM

I didn't miss the point. I just don't agree. or with the other posters who equate euthanasia with sending to the slaughter house. The end result, death is the same. It's the getting to that point that makes all the difference. I'm not attacking you, just disagreeing. I think it is one of those things that each person has to decide for herself.
re the last point, if you euthanize a horse, the carcass cannot (theoretically) be used for food, but it is used for other things such as hides, bone meal etc. I don't love the idea, but as I said before - I feel the same about my own mortal body. Once I'm dead, I don't care what they do with my body. But I'll repeat, I'd rather die quietly, at home. To put a horse down costs @$100, the deadstock removal people are either free or charge @$30.
And again, because we treat other animals like commodities, with the bottom line and efficiency dictating much of what is deemed "acceptable practice", it doesn't mean it is right.
I think we should all work towards the more humane treatment of all animals, and this includes their deaths.
It's a business for me too. I'm just not a very good businesswoman.
What's for dinner? vegetarian lasagna! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet

Nov. 28, 2001, 08:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What, in your opinion, is my moral and ethical obligation to this specific horse that I
bought 3 hours previous, strictly and 100% to re-sell and make money on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Fred on this. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it would be "immoral" or "unethical" to send it to slaughter. But I certainly wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I did it.

Just one reason I have never been, and will almost certainly never be, a "dealer".

Quinn

Nov. 29, 2001, 04:14 AM

I have made it a rule NOT to buy or sell from/to a dealer. We have two on the farm currently which couldn't be "sold" on but nor could I ever send them back to where they'd been knowing they would go for meat. That is just my opinion. Plain and simple. I know what you are getting at wishing not to lose $$ but I personally can tell any horse under the influence of a tranquillizer and I'm sure you can too. Plus, let's face it, we're not talking great big bucks from a meat dealer and I see you live in Ontario so you know as well as I do there are laws in place to protect us when it comes to buying horses without having disclosures.

I don't want to continue to argue. Suffice it to say you have your opinion and I have mine. There is no right or wrong here.

Quinn

Nov. 29, 2001, 05:38 AM

Spot, I don't want to continue to go round and round on this one. It is clearly a personal decision based on where your priorities lie. You and I do not think the same way. That isn't a crime, nor would it prevent me from doing business with you some day. Would I sell you a horse? No. Case in point....a beautiful TB mare (registered) came from the Kitchener sale via the meat man we know personally. We knew up front she would have a "glitch" or two. We paid $2100.00 for her, made sure she was sound for breeding purposes and bred her to Rio Grande. The resulting picture is attached.

Turns out she had blown the sheath around her deep flexor tendon in her hind leg as a two year old and her owner sent her to auction knowing full well she would end up in a can eventually. Because we have way too many horses, we sold her to a very reputable breeder for $1,000 with a written contract stating she will come back to us for her retirement. Yes, we're way too soft for our own good but again, it boils down to priorities. Not saying yours are better or worse, just different. And I now retire from this discussion.

rusti

Nov. 29, 2001, 05:59 AM

I agree totally with Fred and HaynOats. I would think that anyone involved in the horse business origonally chose that career out of love for horses. How someone gets from there to what Spot discribes just amazes and disgusts me.
Putting the all mighty dollar before the wellfare of the animal is not new in this industy and is the attitude responsible for killing horses for insurance, drug violations, and just about every abusive practice we hear far too much about in this business.
Yes, the morally and ethically correct thing to do would have been to eat the cost and euthanize them humanely at home, no matter if you owned them for 1 hour or a lifetime. Then learn to be more selective when purchasing a horse for resale.
I'm sure there were not that many horses out of what you bought and sold that were so dangerous to warrent being put down. I doubt that doing the right thing by them would have sent you to the poor house.

TrakHack

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:07 AM

Is it ethical for humans to own animals AT ALL if we are not omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent beings? (and I would argue that it's pretty much impossible to meet those requirements)

If we truly have the best interest of horses at heart, would we house them in 12x12 boxes or ride them around arenas and over obstacles? I'm not so sure I would. Yes, I "own" a horse (although I prefer to think that I am her steward as opposed to owner), she lives in a stall for most of the day, and when I ride, it's me choosing what we do. I do this not because it is how the horse would like to live, but because I benefit from it. I have also held a cat prisoner for 16 years /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. It just seems that no matter what we use these animals for, whether it's for companionship, competition, income, or food, we are USING them for our benefit. Is it ethical to use another living being for our benefit?

On that contemplative note, I must get to work! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rusti

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:20 AM

The bottom line is that we all have to make choices and have to be able to live with them.
At one time I lived very close to both Penn National and New Holland auction. I've gotten all five of my previous jumpers from either the track, auction or as a rescue cases. Actually my present horse is the first that I've ever paid more than $500 for. (And boy did I make up for the freebee's with his price tag). I went into the situation with my eyes wide open, knowing there was potential to end up with a horse that was not able to do what I wanted and in the case of both the rescue horses one who may well be too dangerous to keep around. I got lucky, all that I bought or took in turned out fine. My choice had they not would never had been sending them off to the killer. That's just not something I could live with. Obviously you can and that's your choice, I don't agree with it and yes, I do find it repulsive. But that's just my opinion based on my values. Now will I ever make money in the horse business? Probably not! Every time I've tried I just end up with another pet! and more overtime to support them all!
As far as the horse with the heart condition you mentioned. First, the whole situation is bad. Putting the jockeys, other horses, and future owners at risk is downright criminal.
There is no way to answer your question as to who is responsible. I can only speak for myself. If I had bought the horse, had the resources and he was not in pain my choice would have been to turn him out and start saving for my next horse, this time investing in a good prepurchase exam. Barring that, most likely would have had him put down at the hospital.
So, Can I leave my rose colored glasses on a while longer?

coco

Nov. 29, 2001, 08:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But not with one of my sale horses, when I was buying and selling 40 or 50 of them a year. It was a business, dealing in commodities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enough said. (And very, very sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

I think Joseph Conrad said it best...

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 29, 2001, 08:42 AM

And Spot, to answer your original question about the 2 hour horse, I would keep it, try to retrain it or put it down and take the loss. To me a horse is a responsibility that I take on the moment I agree to accept it. Just like a stray cat or dog, if I pick them up, I will find them a home, keep them, or have them humanely put to sleep. I personally just couldn't sleep doing anything else. I sold one horse at an auction that I believed was a "non meat sale". The horses I have seen go thru are all nice prospects, but I lost track of her, and still worry to this day - 10 years later. If it was a money issue, that I needed to get the few dollars back that a meat dealer would give me, I would get out of horses.

Sorry, Spot, that is just how I feel. And yes, IF I liked your black mare, and if I had the money to ship (which I don't at the moment), I would love to give her a try and see if her temperament is really genetics or environment. As to her "genetic" kicking, I find this really questionable. I would think more that maybe those TB's just couldn't take the 24/7 stall, but I am not sure any horse should be able to put up with that for extended periods.

My stallion Nevada has the most incredible disposition of any stallion that the vets who work with him have ever seen. Would he be the same in a different environment? I am sure he would be less laid back if handled differently.

I think horses have a genetic tendency to be hotter, or calmer. More sensitive or not. But I believe how they are treated creates what they become with those tendancies - I don't believe evil horses are born. I have seen several horses that have been ruined, and I may not think the cost of feeding them is worth it when so many more deserving animals could be cared for, but I would not put them on a truck.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Nov. 29, 2001 at 01:04 PM.]

Quinn

Nov. 29, 2001, 11:46 AM

I just read your profile and realize who you are. Having said that, you will remember the stallion "Farnsworth." Makes you shudder just to think doesn't it?

Many years ago, I purchased a 3 year old filly by him and this was before many of his babies were on the ground. Pretty soon though, his bizarre behaviour came through. 99% of Farnsworth babies were just plain nuts. My filly broke my wrist and my jaw and put my top teeth right through my bottom lip. Not knowing much about breeding at the time, I bred her to a wonderfully quiet Holsteiner and she presented me with a carbon copy of herself. He is now a 15 year old lawn ornament. Danny Foster rode a Farnsworth by the name of Charisma many years ago and that horse was exactly the same. I believe Gail Greenough owned it first?? In my experience, the mare tends to have 60-70% influence on the babies. Anyway, for that reason, I would NEVER again breed anything but the best mare I can afford to the best stallion I can afford.

And after all of the emotional responses I have given, I am answering your original question.

Hephaistion

Nov. 29, 2001, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by coco:
Quote: " But not with one of my sale horses, when I was buying and selling 40 or 50 of them a year. _It was a business, dealing in commodities._ "

Enough said. (And very, very sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe its sad to you, but please remember that not everyone is as emotionally attached to their animals as you, or as North Americans in general.

From what I understand about Europe - horse breeding and selling is very businesslike, and probably very "cold" as someone above said. From what I've heard and read about some of the big sales barns over there horses are very much a commodity. The three year olds are trained very hard, jumped big, and asked to do passage etc. and if they fail, they are rejected and the rest sold for high prices. Horses are "things" to many people not lovely dovey individuals with fluffy names like Barney, Snookums or Princess or whatever. They are money-making commodities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because some of you think that Spot's views on her horse business are horrible, doesn't mean that this is not a common happening.

We north americans are known for coddling our pets and animals /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm surprised that people are giving Spot such a hard time on her decisions.

BaysAbound

Nov. 29, 2001, 02:39 PM

Spot,
Thanks for even considering taking the mare. She does not fit into your business plan and you are making a decision accordingly. You are a wiser businessperson than I am. I can't "go look", although I have met 2 or 3 horses I wouldn't bring home. A good friend runs a legitimate OTTB adoption agency and selects mine for me. She selects them based on my skill level and objectives. I have three beautiful mares that I love dearly. They each are different than when they first came to me. More calm well adjusted and have a natural sweetness I would not have recognized when I got them. My friend knew, I didn?t. A lifetime of experience shows. The down time has really changed their demeanor. Yes, they are spoiled. When Heidi first got here she was always a moment away from panic. My eyes never left her every second I was with her for the first 6 months. Doc was a quivering mass of flesh every time I got her out of the field. She thought a breeding chute is a starting gate and panicked. Now, two of the three are palpated while tied with a lead line, the other, cross ties. They are different from when they came, but none came mean. I don't have a "hot" one in the little herd. I know I wont be the person to "fix" a horse with a serious behavior problem. Thanks for the topic. Much has been said and I will temper my own activities based on insights offered.

[This message was edited by BaysAbound on Mar. 19, 2002 at 09:39 AM.]

Kafue

Nov. 29, 2001, 03:41 PM

Spot - I think you have quite a few people on this board that don't agree with your decision to let this mare go but has anyone seriously offered to take her?

As someone who obviously makes a living from buying, selling and breeding horses I am very happy that you would not consider taking on this mare. I am a potential buyer and I would not like my face kicked in or my back broken when as an unsuspecting buyer I happen along on one of these poor horses. There are many people who are looking for a bargain out there and might buy a horse like this if the price is right. I once had a buddy that bought a horse from an auction which ended up rearing up and falling back on her - yes, she broke her back but luckily she was able to walk again. I don't know if I could send a horse off to the slaughter house but I wouldn't have any problem having a dog euthanized if it attacked a child, I still believe that the well being of people should come first.

Fred

Nov. 29, 2001, 05:32 PM

?
Kafue seems to have misunderstood most people's responses, or perhaps she has skipped over most of the discussion. NO ONE is critical of Spot for not taking the mare, that I can tell.

Priya

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:21 PM

things have really taken off here and lots of different opinions are floating around!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I can't get into the hypothetical's or "case studies" but ofcourse have my own point of view.

I personally could never send a horse for meat. I guess for myself there is the emotional attachment to them no matter what......even the ones who have tried to kill me and not succeeded! However with that said my family is European and enjoys horse meat as a delicacy. I personally know what it looks like and won't eat it but it is available when we have a family gatherings at Opa and Oma's. I am not going to dictate to my family if I think them eating horse is right or wrong, to them it is just another type of "meat" to eat. Even if we don't like it horses do facilitate and supply a food source even if we don't like it....like most livestock they can and are eaten.

I think the issue here is mostly the way in which the horse eventually gets to its final resting place. What I personally would do is entirely different and for different reasons then Spots decision. Her's was a financial basis and it was run as a business. She had no emotional atachment to the horse coming and was training them specifically for re-sale. If the horse for whatever reason was not suitable for its required work she had no problem trying to re-coup her money. Like I said I don't have the heart to send a horse for meat but I also see the flip side of the coin. Would it be my choice, no, but I do know that some in my family would have no qualms with shipping a horse for meat in order to offset some of the costs associated with the business. They have even questioned why I keep the old mare around when I can't do anything with her. In Europe horses are moved around like a commodity and horses we prize and are a dime a dozen over there are shipped to market no problem, no questions asked and definetly for less reasons then being a "killer horse". The Europeans run their breeding, training, re-sale barns with the eye to make profit. Many of our horses in comparison here live very luxurious and cushy lifestyles. So partially it is how you percieve and are raised and your mentality between it being a pet and a business. I can't say which is right or wrong but I have been exposed to both sides.

Its a personal choice and one which everyone has to live with for themselves. For me I seem to collect horses and have re-habilitated, nurtured and taken in some intersting beasts /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I doubt I added much or helped but I do think everyone needs to understand that we all run our businesses differently and right and wrong is being based on emotions, personal experience and mentality.

I'll regress and go into lurking mode,

Sarah

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In Europe horses are moved around like a commodity and horses we prize and are a dime a dozen over there are shipped to market no problem, no questions asked and definetly for less reasons then being a "killer horse". The Europeans run their breeding, training, re-sale barns with the eye to make profit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have heard the that "unfit" horses are sent to slaughter instead of having them in the gene pool. While these horses would make fine event horses or backyard horse, they are "exterminated" to prevent others like them being produced.

~Rox Dene is too PERFECT!!!!~

coco

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> How do you THINK people earn a living with them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot, you've already stated that you have a full-time big-time position as a tranport agent or something...somewhere on another thread I recall your husband also has a full-time big-time position somewhere. So I THINK in your case you are not going to miss a meal if you don't send a few horses for meat every year.

(if your numbers are 40-50/year and you admit to a minimal $500 profit per horse, we're talking $25k FOR LOWS as pocket change annually).

Nice! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif With money like that flying around from a part-time job, who the hell cares about the agonizing trip to slaughter by some commodity?!?! Once you put your money-tinted glasses on, heck, it's just like shipping a car! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Those who really are in this industry full-time to earn a living in my experience can only do it through lessons/training...though their income rarely approches anything close to horse-trader income apparently. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 29, 2001, 07:57 PM

I, of course couldn't retrain a horse with a heart condition, but I could find it a home as a companion. I do prefer to keep my "rose colored glasses on" as the horse people I know do not just treat horses as $$ just because it is their business. I was a horse crazy person first, last, and always. I will quit when I no longer care for them as special.

About the black mare, you asked if in our opinion, she should be given another chance in a new home. I just voted "yes".

Quinn

Nov. 30, 2001, 04:42 AM

Spot, there are those who believe only in the bottom line dollar and then there are those who actually believe the horse itself has some intrinsic value. The latter of which are not belaboring over who the onus must be one etc. etc. etc.

Okay, you feel sending a horse for meat is fine. That is your opinion. I would hazard a guess and say the majority of others on the board do not feel the same. I for one recommend we just let this one drop. We can just agree to disagree. Hell, it's Friday.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 30, 2001, 05:30 AM

Amen, Quinn....

I've been staying out of the fray for the most part, but I do want to say to Spot how I see her point of view. I don't have to agree with it, but I see it and it's your decision.

I posed the question to my hubby last night, who would do what you had done. I disagree. We are not going to divorce over the issue, and we both agreed that we are not in the business of horses, and therefore the question is moot to us. But the simple fact of life is that many of us see our horses, all horses, as pets - while others see them as a commodity. Doesn't mean either of us is wrong.

Back to the original discussion - still wouldn't give a horse with that kind of track record (no pun intended) a home on my farm. Too much risk for anyone coming into contact with her. But that's MY decision, that's MY level of risk. I wouldn't condemn anyone else for taking the chance - that's a personal decision.

Good Friday, everyone...let's all try to get along!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Evalee Hunter

Nov. 30, 2001, 05:40 AM

One thing I have been puzzling over a little is the comments that have been made about slaughter house conditions. I am sure the conditions of slaughter vary greatly with the paticular facility.

However, I once spent the day on the killing floor of a slaughterhouse. This was in Chesapeake, VA, about 1975. They were slaughtering cattle--I don't know if they slaughtered other animals but they probably did.

I had myself braced for it to be very gruesome & inhumane. I was quite surprised to find things to the contrary. The cattle were quite calm--not a lot of mooing, bawling or bellowing. They walked calmly up a shute one at a time & stood quietly at the end of the shute. The man doing the killing used a hand-held gun-like device with the "bolt" that came out the "barrel". Every animal went down unconscious the 1st time, basically without a twitch. I was surprised but they were not thrashing around, nor did they seem to have any vestige of consciousness. (I well remember how upsetting it was as a kid to see my father chop off chicken's heads, how they thrashed around afterward!) Now I'm sure the heart was still beating in each cow, but I also believe they were brain dead. As soon as they were down they were hoisted by the hind legs--no resistance, no twitching, no movement other than from the hoist. The throat was cut & they bled out on the floor.

IF these conditions prevail in slaughterhouses in general I have no problem with animals being slaughtered or with eating meat. My fear is that the place I saw was exceptionally well-run with experienced people & that other places are unlike this.

One thing I DON'T understand is why horses bound for slaughter are shipped out of the US. Is horse slaughter prohibited? Just by some states? As I said before, my biggest concern has always been the inhumane transport. Are slaughterhouses in Canada governed by humane laws similar to the US? If they are, how are things as bad as one woman mentioned her veterinarian witnessing?

I know horses generally are more intelligent than cattle & also higher strung & more sensitive & more active so that is a factor in their slaughter. However, I don't see that using horses for meat is innately inhumane.

As several have pointed out, different people & different cultures have different sensibilities. I know a couple who are quite involved in Haflingers--have even traveled to Europe to learn about them. The woman told me that in Austria they went to a restaurant & she thought it was so wonderful because you could watch a mare & foal through a picture window while you ate. Then she noticed that high on the wall all around the restaurant there were hides & she asked the waiter about them. The waiter said, "Oh, those are Haflinger hides." Any horse that can't meet a certain standard is killed so there is no chance of passing along its traits.

Now I will throw out a new kink. In this country, breeders of Harlequin Great Danes usually drown at birth any puppies that don't conform to the standard in markings. I don't like that practice, won't have a Harlequin because of it, but there is not a lot of protest because people don't know about it.

I think we are doing ourselves a favor by bringing all this info about horse slaughter into the open & discussing it. I thank Spot for bringing it up, even if inadvertently. All of us need to examine our feelings, morals & ethics & I hope we can continue to do so without making personal attacks on each other.

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 05:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The cattle were quite calm--not a lot of mooing, bawling or bellowing. They walked calmly up a shute one at a time & stood quietly at the end of the shute. The man doing the killing used a hand-held gun-like device with the "bolt" that came out the "barrel". Every animal went down unconscious the 1st time, basically without a twitch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses are slaughted exactly the same way. However, they are the exact opposite of calm, not quiet, and don't stand still for the bolt - which means in some circumstances it takes more than one time, and because they try to evade, it doesn't always even land in the head.

Just one of the differences........

Quinn

Nov. 30, 2001, 05:50 AM

Spot, I just assumed you knew who Farnsworth was. He was a TB stallion by Prince Quillo who became very well known for stamping his get with "insane" traits. My point was, if the mare exhibits the same personality as her sire, chances are very good her foals will as well. That was all I was getting at. In my personal opinion, in order to produce top quality babies, we must breed top quality mares to top quality stallions. My personal opinion would be to HUMANELY destroy the mare. You indicate she kicks the bejeebers out of trailers and stalls and people alike. Best for all involved to stop the genetic train right there.

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 06:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
I am curious - have you seen this done firsthand to horses in slaughter situations or are you relying on what others have told you they "have heard" or "seen" ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am relying on what others have seen. Have you seen it?

Quinn

Nov. 30, 2001, 06:30 AM

According to the Webster's Dictionary.

Slaughter: The killing of an animal or animals for food; to butcher. Butchery, - adds implications of extreme cruelty and of such coldblooded heartlessness as one might display in the slaughtering of animals.

Euthanasia: Painless, happy death. An easy and painless death. Act or method of causing death painlessly so as to end suffering.

You used the term and I supplied the definition. If you insist on having the last word.......you're it /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 06:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
I used the "slaughter" term because Keely had used the "slaughter" term in her message.
For no reason other than that ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then I'm confused, because I thought at least a good portion of the topic was about slaughter. My mistake apparently.

Portia

Nov. 30, 2001, 07:35 AM

Well said, haynoats. I've been following this thread but have not jumped in because people have been polite and reasonable with one another, and have engaged in an exchange of ideas and opinions on a mature level on what can be an emotional topic. I've been very impressed with you all, as I'm sure Erin has been. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, keep it up and don't let anybody bait any of you into letting it become personal. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin

Nov. 30, 2001, 07:59 AM

Regarding the conditions at slaughterhouses that Evalee Hunter described. The slaughterhouses today are probably quite different.

With the advent of fast food (quite literally), high-speed slaughter plants have become the norm. They slaughter thousands of animals a day in a production line fashion. "Stopping the line" is a huge ordeal that momentarily stops production, and costs the company money. So they, obviously, don't like to do it.

I spoke to a woman named Temple Grandin at Colorado State (I think) who is an expert in animal behavior and slaughterhouse design. When things are done CORRECTLY, slaughter should not be a horrible ordeal. The animals should be calm, and should be killed instantly.

The only research I've done is on livestock slaughter, not horses. That's an article that's been on my to-do list for a long time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Personally speaking, I don't have a huge problem with the concept of slaughter, horses or otherwise. In practice, however, there are a LOT of improvements that need to be made, especially with regard to transportation.

Here's the article I did on livestock slaughter, with some interesting links at the end:

Bringing Slaughter Out of the Shadows (http://www.vetcentric.com/magazine/magazineArticle.cfm?ARTICLEID=1511)

Riverdale

Nov. 30, 2001, 08:02 AM

Well, a very interesting topic indeed. I�ve struggled with the horsemeat concept for years. I am also from a cultural background that eats horses.

I am not a vegan. If I eat pork, and beef and lamb, then how can I be opposed to people eating horses?

If it is the transport and handling that I am concerned about, than I should really look at the handling systems for the other livestock species and see if I have trouble with those as well. As much as I would like, I cannot put horses is a separate category since their sensory capabilities are very similar to those other livestock species I mentioned. Maybe we need to work to improve the regulations that govern auction handling and transportation of horses, and livestock in general?

And yes, eventhough I always aim for a good home,....I have shipped one horse to Kitchener and shed my tears. I knew if I was going to be in the horse business I could not keep them all. My lack of finances at the time really helped push the decision. This filly was crippled, and slaughter or euthanasia was the only option. I had to decide right then and there....I either become a vegan or ship this filly. (and yes, she still could walk quite decently at this time and she was not in pain). I can�t be a hypocrite and feel like a hero because I "saved" this filly while wearing leather shoes, drinking milk, and eating beef. Then I would only be fooling myself.

Spot, I applaud your honesty on such a controversial topic.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

khobstetter

Nov. 30, 2001, 08:16 AM

First I am putting on the biggest sheild of armour I can find!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Second I will say that as true horseman, I believe, we have a responsibility NOT to continue a line of horses we know are dangerous or have severe propensities for dangerous situations...under any circumstances!! (sheild up!) The very fact that horses are sooooooo much larger than we are in itself lends to possible severe injury of the humans!!!!

I HATE THE HORSE SLAUGHTER PRACTICE!!!! But mostly I hate the fact that our government has set up the situation it has for slaughtering horses at all. It is illegal to sell horsemeat for human consumption in the states but it is not illegal to slaughter them for the meat and ship it out of the country. France, Japan I believe are the main purchasers.

I have seen the slaughter houses first hand.

We tried to get there as the big truck/trailers off loaded and the horses hit the first pens...they usually only stay there for a few hours at best. That pen is the "sorting" pen. The horses are quickly looked at for their weight and depth of girth and hip and are given a "rating" as to what their carcass will potentially give in meat.

As they are sorted they are stamped with the USDF (I think those are the letters) stamp and put in different holding pens before slaughter. They can stay in those pens along time, especially if they are one of the lower rated...they like to slaughter the fat ones first, saves on meat loss.

There was one in Platte (I think that was the town) Nebraska and also one of the biggest (2-6000!!!) horses in Texas. The process I saw at both places was very human, quick and relatively painless.

What was NOT was the conditions the horses lived in while waiting their turn. No cleaning, bad feed, too many horse together and the smell for them was very heavy in the air. FEAR SMELLS REALLY BAD!

Once a horse has left the first holding pen and been sorted..YOU CANNOT GET THEM OUT. It is a federal offense to do anything with an animal (any animal) once it has received the rating and stamp, except slaughter it.

If we could get there at the right time and the "good guys" were on watch we could always buy any of the horses before sorting. HOWEVER, if the slaughter house had not reached its quota it was like playing Poker with the Devil to get one of them out.

I can remember so many frantic and tearful and hysterical conversations and yes...down on our knees begging... to try and save TB's that a breeder had decided to ship there instead of to a dealer somewhere. If we were even just a few minutes too late..the answer was absolutely NO.

Conditions today are a bit better but too much care while they wait costs money.......

So thats what I know about it, or at least all I am putting here.

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 30, 2001, 08:53 AM

Those pointing out that the trip to the slaughterhouse is often the most horrific time for them are correct.

I work for a large international trucking firm, and we investigated a few years back whether it would be financially feasible to start shipping livestock. After crunching the numbers, the time in which the animals had to be shipped, the VOLUME on one truck, and the conditions that would be generated by those time factors and space limitations made it quite clear that although we would be following the law, those animals would SUFFER.

My boss, a hot-headed Italian whose mind very often dwells on the financial bottom line rather than emotion, decided not to do it for that reason alone. To make a profit, the animals must suffer. Even he, a non-animal lover who thinks my horses are hayburners, saw this and couldn't do it.

Quite scary and just thought I'd throw that in as food for thought.

rusti

Nov. 30, 2001, 08:57 AM

Spot,
I don't expect my trainer to love my horse, but as a professional I do expect him to respect the fact that the horse is important to me, the person paying the bills. I do expect him to put the horses wellfare above everything else.
I guess I'm lucky because it is obvious that my horse's trainer loves what he does and treats all the horses under his care very well.
I work as an trauma nurse to support my horsey habit. Do I love all my patients or even care at all about some of them, like you said, don't be stupid, hard to love drunk who just killed an entire family, but guess what someone out there cares for that person so as a professional its my job to portray a caring attitude. I don't expect any less of the professionals caring for my horses. Think what you want about them but you better behave as if they are important to you if you want my business.
As I said, I'll probably not ever make a profit in the horse business.
I wouldn't buy 40 horses a year, can't even think of buying a few of my own broodmares for my stallion because I'd never have the heart to sell any of the foals. And before you ask, I am very picky about who can breed to him. So no chance of a profit there either.
Also, that black mare does sound like a lost cause. but you said her owner was having the vet out to put her down. Sounds like he's doing the right thing.
Spot, I've seen your posts about your horses. You seem to care very much about them. so tell me, who would you rather buy one of your foals? Some one like me or someone who see's them only as a commodity to be disposed of when things are not going well?
BTW, I liked your web page and your horses, wanna see mine?
[This message was edited by rusti on Nov. 30, 2001 at 01:11 PM.]Winston (http://www.stallionstation.com/winston)

[This message was edited by rusti on Nov. 30, 2001 at 01:15 PM.]

Lisamarie8

Nov. 30, 2001, 09:56 AM

Unfortunately Erin's right. The slaughterhouses today are FAR from pleasant places, not for the workers and OBVIOUSLY not for the animals. They have been turned into money making assembly lines and the workers are in almost as much danger as the animals.

Working in a slaughterhouse used to be one the highest paid and stable jobs out there. Because of the demand Fast Food corporations have put on them (did you know McDonalds was the nations LARGEST purchaser of beef, chicken AND potatoes) they have turned into dangerous places for illegal immigrants to get minimal pay and NO benefits. The turnover rate is staggering, and the training for new employees is pathetic. The people that DO stay end up practically crippled (think carpal-tunnel times 10 and ALL over your body.) It's all about money and the more animals you kill the more money you make...you try and RUSH to put a "bolt" in a horses head. Hell i couldn't even rush when putting on my last TB's Bridle.

I wont EVEN go into the feed lots /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I read Fast Food Nation 6 months ago and have not eaten fast food since. Not only for what's in the meat (you don't want to know...although i imagine you already do) but the way the corporations are run, the way they treat their employees, what they've done to farmers and their basic ideology.

--Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Natty Dread

Nov. 30, 2001, 10:18 AM

Spot:
After pouring thru all the pages of this (and always loving a good debate) I have to say I pretty well agree and have been put into pretty well the same situations as you. If you are in the horse business, and for some it really truly is a business, you are oft times put into these unfortunate positions. You must make yourself blind to "feelings" and become realistic regarding quite a few horses. I think it is far too easy for many who only own a couple of horses to anthropomorphize them. Vets know this and prey on many people to do this one last surgery, try this new medication for 6 months, do all that is possible...why cuz they run a business in the end. The onus was never yours in regards to the horse with the problem, however was yours if you wished to ever sell another horse to that lady or anybody within earshot of her. It is your life and your income.

As much as I find the whole "slaughter" industry distasteful in and of itself it serves a purpose. It is always so easy for people to think "SAVE THEM ALL". At whose cost? I have truth be told sent a couple. But when you own 30 odd what should you do? Is it good to pawn them off onto others? If I do then so will the next guy. Sure I would love to keep each and everyone til the day they die a peaceful death in their sleep but that doesn't always happen. And with a yearly cost per horse bare minimum being roughly $2000 a year how can you? I am not Onassis.

As far as feeding carcasses to animals at the zoo....if the animal was humanely euthanized it should not be done. The zoos now only except animals slaughtered. This happened one year at Lion Country Safari where a horse was euthanized and then donated for the lions to eat. Everybody thought "hey what a deal" WRONG! Killed I think 2 lions and the others were really sick for awhile. Actually I think it killed more then 2. My vet told me this.

I once saw a great story on a woman who saved dogs from the shelter. She went in chose 5 or 6 which met her criteria vetted 'em cleaned 'em up and adopted 'em out. She knew she couldn't save them all. She knew what the fate of the others would be. But she did what she could for the few that she could.

I think the reality is that the slaughterhouses are alive and well and serve a purpose. They will remain an option for some however distasteful and I truly think more energy should be put into shipping practices. And hell yes it is legal in the US but prices are way down right now I think closer to 20cents a pound right now so not very properous.
Most horses that go are broke down thoroughbreds, quite a few Standardbreds who seem to have no other purpose then for the Amish. Amish bred Drafts for their hides for fine Italian leather shoes as well as the French and Japanese taste for meat, and quite a few oldies and just plain junk. I have been to 1 facility near me and as bad as the practice was I did not spot a diamond in the rough. All were there for a reason. I also went to Shipshewanna and turned and ran when I saw what kind of junk gets run thru there.

Unless there is an open offer for someone to take any of my possible pawn offs don't tell me what I can or can't do with them.

Stepping off my box and slipping on my cordovan loafers.

Nov. 30, 2001, 10:23 AM

I really didn't mean tobe such a crab yesterday. Please don't kill me.

Spot-- the appearence of your website (for the amount I looked at it) was actually very nice. I guess I have been provoked by a large amount of those obnoxious pop up screens that seem to advertise anything and everything whenever I visit an new page. The tension grew and I blew. Sorry /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

P.S. Spot Pocket is very cute and handsome. I like.

~Rox Dene is too PERFECT!!!!~

Nov. 30, 2001, 10:25 AM

I promise to shut up now.

~Rox Dene is too PERFECT!!!!~

Natty Dread

Nov. 30, 2001, 10:31 AM

1 final note:

In regards to the Europeans and animals I am pretty sure that they find our strange knack of truly making them apart of our families as near to ridiculous as can be. For example: I breed Belgian Malinois Dogs. The most well known breeders and trainers in both France and Holland think we are crazy and are breeding a far softer breed over here. Their dogs live in Kennels are allowed out only to train and look forward to it and repect their handlers far more then any dog I have ever bred. But then mine live with me, sleep on the sofa, and basically run my life. Greta my girl thinks nothing of knocking me off the sofa just to get more comfy herself. We must face the fact the some cultures just do things better and far wiser then us. Animals and animal husbandry to the Dutch is a way of life and a business to them. I am sure that they feel exactly the same about the horses they breed and from our appetites I would venture to guess they are on to something. They must look at our doe eyed stares when we go over to pick out that special horse and think "There is one born every minute".

Evalee Hunter

Nov. 30, 2001, 11:13 AM

It is my understanding that euthanasia refers to a humane & painless death--that does NOT require or mean that drugs were used. If drugs are used, then the body is not suitable to feed animals (or people). However, if the "knock" or "bolt" to the head is done correctly, it appears to be very humane. And in the case of doing one animal (rather than an assembly line) it should be possible to keep the animal (horse) still enough for this to work the first time.

I have read several posts that seem to suggest that euthanasia by definition means the use of drugs. I do not believe this is so. If I had a horse that was vicious, I would NOT send it to slaughter (for the 2 reasons posted much earlier in this thread) & I would want to SEE the horse put down to satisfy myself that it was in fact put down (not sold on) but at the same time I would not require the use of drugs as I believe the body should be usable.

To Erin: I read your article. I am puzzled over one thing. If the "knock" is not delivered correctly & the animal is then hoisted & bled, how can it be alive further down the assembly line as it is butchered? While I certainly find this gruesome (not a bad enough word for what I find it), I do know that bleeding out of the major neck arteries will quickly stop the heart & also a lack of blood/blood pressure (and lack of heartbeat, also) will prevent oxygen from getting to the brain which will lead to loss of consciousness/death fairly quickly (not to mention that these neck arteries take blood to the brain & once the neck arteries are cut, that is also an interruption of circulation to the brain). I think you should have gotten some kind of detailed, biological explanation as to how these things could happen.

I guess for any of us to know what REALLY goes on in a slaughterhouse, we would have to get a job there. Yuk!

Natty Dread

Nov. 30, 2001, 11:32 AM

I am not sure what the real time line is for death,

But I lived in Argentina for about 3 years. In Argentina it is tough for a girl to get involved in any kind of male activity at all but I was living on a ranch and really wanted to "prove" myself to the head guy. Well I really wanted a "cuero" (sheep skin) to wear on my saddle so while I worked with the cattle my butt would stay nice and comfy. The guys said I had to off the sheep myself in order to get one. EWWWWWW!!!
Kill an actual animal with my own hands. Nugh ugh!!! SO not only did they make me catch it (no easy feat)!! I think they were testing me. I had to slit its throat(not really all that bad)(at least not for me). I think it expired in about 30 seconds. It was like long enough for the heart to pump the blood out and with the chase just over it happened quite quickly. Then I had to skin it and gut it. Now I know this sounds horrible for us but when that is your way to get food it really isn't any worse then picking food up at the grocery. The worst by far was the chase. I was exhausted. Needless to say I have my "cuero" still now 10 years later. We just aren't brought up that way any more. But that was the reality not too long ago. And in the days when our ancesters headed west believe me a young colt came in handy when you were stuck in the middle of nowhere with nothing to eat.

Erin

Nov. 30, 2001, 11:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evalee Hunter:

To Erin: I read your article. I am puzzled over one thing. If the "knock" is not delivered correctly & the animal is then hoisted & bled, how can it be alive further down the assembly line as it is butchered? While I certainly find this gruesome (not a bad enough word for what I find it), I do know that bleeding out of the major neck arteries will quickly stop the heart & also a lack of blood/blood pressure (and lack of heartbeat, also) will prevent oxygen from getting to the brain which will lead to loss of consciousness/death fairly quickly (not to mention that these neck arteries take blood to the brain & once the neck arteries are cut, that is also an interruption of circulation to the brain). I think you should have gotten some kind of detailed, biological explanation as to how these things could happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not positive, and don't have my notes handy to see if I have any further info on this... but just guessing...

I would imagine that an animal could still be "sensible" for a period of time after being "stuck" so it will bleed out. If I remember right, some of the criteria for being sensible included eye movement, attempts by the animal to right itself, etc. (These are not unconscious/autonomic responses, I believe.)

These high-speed lines move pretty fast -- there's probably a very short period of time (a minute or two?) from when the animal is stunned to when it's actually being dismembered. If correctly bled, I'm sure an animal would be dead pretty shortly. But maybe they're not being bled correctly, or maybe they're just moved down the line so fast that it doesn't matter.

There are numerous accounts of people being kicked on portions of the line where the animals should be dead, so somehow, it happens.

Again, I'm just guessing here, and don't have all my research handy. But there's lots of info out there on the web if you're really curious.

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 12:32 PM

Somehow, racing always seems to come up whenever I see a discussion on this topic anywhere. To say *most* racing trainers will ship a horse off to slaughter (or 'the killers' or whatever term you like) is completely unfair and in my experience is simply not true. If given the choice, they'll opt for a private home every time - even if they don't care - private home = more $$$. No one I know calls up the dealer unless they are truly desparate to get the horse out or for $$$. Why take $400 when they can get $1000-$5000 for them?

I myself work in the industry and bust my hump to keep these horses going into new homes. Of all the $$$$ donations my branch of the organization that helps to rehome these horses, since the beginning, 99.9999999% have been from the industry or from employees of the industry. Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this whatsoever, just pointing out that there is a concorted effort on the parts of those in racing to take care of their own. Do thoroughbreds end up in kill pens? You betcha. As do castoffs from every aspect of the equine industry. Unfortunately, breed statistics are not noted before going down the chute - there are none whatsoever. Here are some breed statistics, that might surpise some who accuse the industry of breeding horse after horse in hopes of that Derby winner, thereby contributing more than their fair share to the 80,000 or so slaughtered on a yearly basis.

Who is breeding how many of what:

1999
Anglo & Half Arabian 4,453
Appaloosa 10,099
Arabian 11,501
Miniature Horse 8,769
Morgan Horse 3,220
Paint 62,186
Paso Fino 2,388
Quarter Horse 135,528
Saddlebred 2,712
Standardbred 11,183
Thoroughbred 36,500*

2000
Anglo & Half Arabian 3,628
Appaloosa 10,096
Arabian9,660
Miniature Horse 8,662
Morgan Horse 3,624
Paint NA 62,511
Paso Fino 2,280
Quarter Horse 145,936
Saddlebred 2,908
Standardbred 11,281
Thoroughbred 36.700*

* Estimated figure
Source: Individual Breed Registries

Spot, I really honestly have a hard time understanding why you say above that you want your horses to race, when I've seen you state in the past that racing is not a good life for a horse. I'm not slamming you or slinging mud or saying you are a bad person - I'm just saying its hard to understand.

I really don't have a problem with animals losing their lives, even if just because they are unwanted or injured or they are really rouge - it's the methods used to transport them and the procedures in the process itself that are a bit less forgiving when it comes to horses than to cattle in some instances.

*Disclaimer - the following is my personal opinion/philosophy, not shoving it down anyone's throat, just expressing it*

And if I have starry doe eyes because of what thoroughbreds do for my soul and some guy named Sven finds it amusing, so be it. And, while merely the site of road kill makes me queasy, if given the choice of shoving a horse onto an over loaded double decker for a 2-3 day trip and putting a bullet in its head myself - please pass the revolver. When you make your living buying/selling living breathing critters, you at least owe to them to keep them from starving or suffering. No one is asking you to keep them all or feed them all until they day they die - if die they must, see to it that the procedure is as humane as possible. A bullet is a lot cheaper than an injection, if need be.

Natty Dread

Nov. 30, 2001, 12:40 PM

Actually, I believe a bullet is against the law...

I totally agree with you ( many horse do suffer from a lead definciency), but I think, if I am not mistaken that it is illegal to shoot a horse.

I apologize but I had heard a story from California where some moron had a horse break its leg and unable to get a vet out quickly enough (or maybe he was just too cheap, dunno) tried to do the deed himself thinking it would be more humane. Well he drew the little "X" on the forehead and when the gun went off it scared the hell out of the horse who was grazed and it tried to take off and the guy tried to shoot it and long story short he ends up in jail for animal abuse.

Gawd I have a ton of these little tales!!

Erin

Nov. 30, 2001, 12:57 PM

I vaguely recall hearing this too, Natty.

It's also supposed to be pretty damn difficult to do it correctly. My mom asked our vet about this after we had a rather scary trailer accident -- my pony was relatively unscathed, but we sat on the side of the highway forever while the Illinois state troopers tried to figure out what the hell to do with us. They suggested I tie my pony to a tree and come back for him in the AM! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (At which time 8-year-old me began to scream and cling desperately to the pony... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

Anyway, our vet explained to my mom about where exactly a horse needed to be shot to kill it, but said it was rather difficult to do, and he'd heard many stories about poor horses being shot full of holes by well-meaning police officers who didn't know what they were doing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Er, I should explain that my mom wasn't asking about this as an alternative for tying the pony to the tree, but was wondering what she should do if a horse WERE hurt very badly in a trailer accident.

Natty Dread

Nov. 30, 2001, 12:59 PM

By the way Erin I spent 2 hours on the phone with your Cousin Kerry today having a chick gripe session!! She said to say "hey"!! Were your ears ringing?

I am embarrassed to admit I actually know the moron that did this. Can you say "Natural Selection"?

rusti

Nov. 30, 2001, 01:38 PM

Spot,
We are going to have to just agree to disagree on this. I know there will always be horses that end up in unfortunate circumstances. Its a fact of life, doesn't mean I have to like it.
Maybe I am a bit idealistic when it comes to horses. But I'd rather be that way. There's far too much these days to by cynical about.
As far as the trainer issue, its entirely possible that my trainer goes home every night just hoping to win the lottery and never ride another horse, but...he always appears enthusiastic about his work. I've yet to see an unhappy or mistreated horse at his barn.

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 02:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
I merely said that they wont give a second thought to whether they end up in good homes or crummy homes after they are done with them.
And since I want some foals at the track to prove Spot's ability to sire some race horses for me, or for clients, I guess I will simply have to take some there myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still maintain this is an unfair statement. It is not the case in the majority of the cases. Many, many trainers and owners love to hear of successes of horses they have had in the past in off track careers. And many, many DO want good homes for them - again, 99.9999% of the donations to my track chapter that places horses in new homes are from the industry - they are paying to help see the program continue.

Why single out racing? There are owners and trainers in every discipline (however, I seriously doubt 'most' in any of them) that would fit into the statements above.

I'm still confused about your previous statements about life at the track not being a good one for horses, and if you think it's such a bad life, why would would want your horses to end up there. And if they don't care, why you would want to fuel the supply. But I'm used to being confused, so that's really nothing new for me on this end. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And about the bullet - yes, you need to know what you are doing to kill a horse with a clean shot - just like with a captive bolt, or with an injection. Personally, my choice is euthanasia performed by a competent professional - a few hundred bucks isn't going to make or break me.

Pat

Nov. 30, 2001, 04:41 PM

I was thinking about whether or not race trainers care about the horse when it's gone. I would say that I doubt too many do. Seriously, Mike got Beams from someone who is considered a great horseman, but I doubt he cared what happened to the horse. I base that on the knowledge that Beams would have Alpo by the end of the week if he didn't come home with Mike. We probably saved him the trouble of taking him somewhere.

Here's another thing to ponder. We looked at a horse last year at Phily Park. It had an old bow from training as a 2yo, he had a gate card,but was never raced. Now, they were asking $2000 "as is" or $1500 if they had him gelded before he left. (we passed, the bow was HUGE) Now, was this to make him more desirable to the "show people" or were they tring to make sure he wasn't bred for sport. I have been told that TB trainers don't like to hear sucess stories about horses that failed on the track.

Please, this is an honest query, no insults intended or tolerated for that matter.

As for the needle or the bullet, give me the needle. I had to put my friend's pony down this summer. Yes, it was awful to watch, but I felt it was way better for her to see a trusted vet do it rather than letting Day & Night Recovery do it themselves. She was full of Banamine any way.

Keely

Nov. 30, 2001, 04:56 PM

Pat,

No more or less racing trainers than any other discipline's trainers or owners care what happens to a horse after it leaves their charge. I'm still not sure how racing got dragged into this whole thing. I can tell you that there are probably a lot of horse 'traders' out there who make a heck of a lot more money that quite a few people in racing - it ain't all Bafferts and Roses.

As for the stallion, perhaps they just didn't feel he was breeding quality? Or perhaps they thought he was, and was worth more than a stallion. I don't understand why they would drop the price after spending money on the procedure (I may not be understanding your statement correctly either - this is probably the most likely scenerio /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

And I actually had to chuckle regarding the statement that 'they don't like talking about racing failures'. No, that is absolutely not the case - look at Zippy Chippy - he's famous for being a loser. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think someone was yanking your chain when they told you that.

CdnRider

Nov. 30, 2001, 05:08 PM

Spot, I have to say I'm with you on the meat thing.

I have a story too: My trainer broke her leg about 3 years ago while riding a green training horse while no one was around. She crawled and then collapsed near the arena door, in the middle of January, in Alberta, in an unheated arena. She was there for over an hour.

She had her surgery and doctors said not to get on a horse for at least 3 months. She got on one at 5 weeks. The horse that she got on, Cash, was the only one she trusted. She had bought as a complete wildy (pasture bred, born) stud 3 y/o. She broke him and was doing quite well on him. She had a very difficult time with riding but the horse was great. Eventually she was better too. She and Cash started doing dressage and some jumping, even doing a dressage show the following year. One day almost 2 years later she was teaching a student while she was sitting on him. She was about to read a dressage test. Cash caught sight of the paper and he was gone.
She came off. This horse had been sacked out at the beginning.

Well she figured it was a freak occurence and continued riding him fine. Two months later, she was riding him in an enclosed field when he took off for no apparent reason. She couldn't turn him, stop him, she was helpless. He ran straight into page wire. He came away unscathed because he just bounced. She managed to stay on but all she could thing about was when she broke her leg.

She got on him once more, and he wasn't bad, but she hated him. She hated him for not trusting her, for all that she done for him, for all the time, sweat, and money she put into him. She wouldn't've minded meating him.

Except (and this ties in with your other point), her husband won't sell him for nothing, not even meat prices. Cash can jump, he is super flashy, and super nice horse conformation wise. He (the husband) wants more than just meat price, he wants to sell him for money. The husband can ride this horse and has a few times over the past year and half since this happened. He's even taken him jumping.

I don't know who is right, maybe the horse is fixable, maybe not. But I'd say that horse is just about at a third strike.

Heather

Dec. 1, 2001, 05:43 AM

Not going to touch the moral issues with a ten foot pole, but just wanted to comment on Keely's comments on the race horse industry.

I don't work "in the industry" but I know several people who do, and almost all of our horses are OTTB's. What I do know is that at Charles Twon Race Track, and Penn National (where we have bought horses) The meat truck comes EVERY WEEK and leaves loaded to the gills. I have seen this with my own eyes, and have had trainers that work at these tracks confirm it.

Second, while there are some trainers, owners, etc. that do care/prefer that their horse ends up in a a nice home, there are plenty that don't (the last group I bought from certainly didn't). And, even the ones who care, still will send them to the meat auction when things get tight or if the horse doesn't fit into the program. We got a horse from an excellent trainer and horseman, who I respect, who was on his way to the meat auction if we didn't want him. That was their reality--he wasn't working so off he goes.

Finally, I have come to the conclusion that Spot has--race folks don't like to hear about other successs. Well, maybe its not that they don't like to hear, but maybe more that they just don't care. I have tried to get breeding information on two stallions, who are sires of horses we have, both for myself (when we had a mare) and for another sport breeder who was impressed with my horse. In btoh cases I made numerous phones calls to the breeding farms, requested information and contracts, and was completely and totally ignored. I can only conclude that this was because I told them I wasn't a racing breeder--merely someone who enjoyed the horses I had gotten from the track and was interested in having more. Let me add these weren't exactly high dollar stallions standing to tones of mares--their stud fees were $500 and $1000 respectively.

SLW

Dec. 1, 2001, 07:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
Is it buyer beware at auctions - does whoever bought him "deserve" what they got because they did go to an auction frequented by dealers that dump their junk horses there and there is usually a very good reason why the horse has ended up there in the first place - ie., crippled or nuts.

I will be VERY interested to hear the opinions on this one!

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my area when the auction house is told that a horse is not suitable (sane/sound) to be ridden they are sold last in the evening and go to the meat buyers. There is a "buzz word" used in the bleachers to describe the horse which I can't recall. If the seller doesn't declare a problem then the horse will be sent through the auction "as is", sigh.

Open auctions around here are held the night before the Nebraska plant takes in horses. Much better than the west and east where horses do face longer than average transport times.

SLW

JennieColangelo

Dec. 1, 2001, 07:19 AM

what it all comes down to is money. Some of us care about it, some of us don't.

Some can keep defending themselves, aying their right and others can keep saying their wrong or half wrong, but this is how the world goes round.. what's the use in argueing about it and getting upset and holding grugdes?

About four years ago, I bought my first pony, and I was more than halfway responsible for vet bills, farrier, feed, etc. Parents made it clear that I was to pay for most of it (good responsibility technique /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) I bought him with an absess on his houlder after leasing him for 2 monthes. Loved him with all my heart. After 2k worth of operations, I spent the money to put him down even though the vet said I could send him to slaughter. Would never ever do it, and wont ever do it with any horse I own now.

I don't care if the horse flips over and lands on me and I end up in a wheelchair for the rest of my life, I WONT send it to slaughter, because if I got hurt that badly, and bought the horse in the first place, I had no business owning it. Maybe putting the horse out of it's misery is bestfor it, but I'll never put the all mighty $ before the horses best interest.. Animal or no animal, they have feelings.. they feel fear and love and hate.. and what do you think.. a quick death with a needle to the neck or a nail to the head in a place that smells of blood, fear and death? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Thanks,
Jennie

Sparky

Dec. 1, 2001, 09:50 AM

Heather, the reason that the race horse breeders ignored you're inquiries is that they are breeding horses strictly to run, and if the horse ends up in dressage, or jumping or eventing or whatever, no matter how good they are at their new job, they are seen as a failure and an embarrassment to the guy who bred them. The stallion owner's hopes and expectations lie in producing the next superstar racehorse. They just don't like to talk about what they perceive as failing.

And Jenni--trust me, you WOULD care if your horse flipped over and you wound up in a wheel-chair. And so would your family and your friends and the people who would be attending to your every physical need, 24/7 for the rest of your life.

Louise

Dec. 1, 2001, 05:47 PM

We all know that one of the rules here is to stick to issues and not individuals, another is to play nice. Making unsubstantiated statements about another person's animals is very much against these rules.

DROP this part of the discussion and go back to focussing on the slaughter vs. euthanasia discussion that was so enlightening for all concerned.

Evalee Hunter

Dec. 1, 2001, 07:03 PM

I would like to tell a couple of positive stories that I think would give each of us something to think about in our relationships with horses.

We bought a mare (Seal) last December. The story behind Seal is that she was a race horse (TB). The woman who currently owns Seal's dam (NOT the original breeder) feels responsible for all of her mare's offspring. (I think she knows she "can't save all of them" as has been discussed so many times.) So, she had a trainer watch Seal at the track for her & she told this trainer that the minute Seal appeared unable to continue racing to purchase her, which the trainer did. She brought Seal to her farm & let her down & then found her a good home. She knew what might happen to a mare off the track if someone didn't watch out for her & I think this is the kind of "taking the high road" ethics that all of us ought to aim for--even if we approve of sending horses to slaughter--in the best of all possible worlds I think most of would at least try to keep the good ones from slaughter. The woman who did this is certainly not rich or even particularly well off but she is doing what she can for the equines she knows.

The other story involves a woman I know--and I guess as I read some of these stories a very fortunate woman. She once commented to me that she was felt so lucky in her life in that she could be totally ethical in the horse business. She went on to explain that what she meant was that her husband makes enough money to support the family & the horses (quite a herd--brood mares, competition horses & 3 stallions) & what that means is that she never HAS to sell a horse (for example to buy horse feed or pay the vet.) She said you need that backing to be able to be ethical in the horse business. I think she knows the realities. I don't think she looks down on or thinks badly of those who take a different view or have different resources.

I am not as financially secure as that but I hope I can be ethical in the horse business--that I can take the high road and not HAVE to sell a horse.

JennieColangelo

Dec. 1, 2001, 07:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And Jenni--trust me, you WOULD care if your horse flipped over and you wound up in a wheel-chair. And so would your family and your friends and the people who would be attending to your every physical need, 24/7 for the rest of your life.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may think that.. but I have an attitude that what hapepns may not have been CALLED for on the part of the horse, but if I couldn't handle what happened, i shouldn't have been dealing with the horse in the first place. Its NEVER the horses fault. If the horse was inhumanly destroyed, I sure as heck would not have had a thing to do with it.

Thanks,
Jennie

Kurt

Dec. 1, 2001, 08:00 PM

I've seen him.

I would not dare make unsubstantiated remarks. You are obviously concerned about what I am saying and you feel its your responsibility to delete it, because its slightly off topic. Just curious... do you condone dealers falsely selling themselves on this bulletin board? I believe that is far more harmful. If its sticking to issues, not individuals here, that is not happening. If she chooses to come on here advertising, then I believe what I am saying is relevant.

[This message was edited by Kurt on Dec. 02, 2001 at 12:10 AM.]

Louise

Dec. 2, 2001, 04:51 AM

You have been given the reasons why your previous posts were deleted. If you have a problem with the way this bb is run, either take it up with the administrator, or the moderators off line or do not post here.

I am not about to get into a public debate with you, and will simply delete any further argumentative posts that you make.

If this discussion does not revert to the general topics that were being discussed before, I will simply close it.

Evalee Hunter

Dec. 2, 2001, 04:17 PM

I think you have brought up an interesting point--how do we judge or know about the personality/temperament of a stallion. We know about our own mares, but what about those we breed to?

However, I do NOT condone your criticisms. I would like to see all of us praise stallions we have seen to have good temperament or speak in general terms (no names) about things we might have observed that make us think a stallion does not have a good temperment.

As my mother always said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. So I am going to try to start a new thread on stallion temperament. Please feel free to tell us what you like to observe when judging a stallion's temperament--what do you look for? We'll look for your input on the new thread.

Canter

Dec. 2, 2001, 05:42 PM

I once owned a horse very much like the one described in this thread. I seriously contemplated having him put down, rather than live on to seriously hurt someone.
Luckily, I was spared the decision - someone with more guts than brains bought him. And he was hurt so seriously less than 6 months later because of his own temperment that he had to be put down in the paddock where he lay.

Given the circumstances, should he have been put down? I don't know. But given the fact that the horse was stabled within 10 minutes of the legendary Owen Sound slaughterhouse I can tell you that there was no way he was going to go there for human or animal consumption no matter how nasty a horse he was.

I believe that any animal that "works" for us humans should not be consumed as food.

Keely

Dec. 2, 2001, 06:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evalee Hunter:
I would like to tell a couple of positive stories<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Evalee, I'd like to take your lead, emphasizing the positive, with some quotes I heard just this weekend from track trainers/owners regarding horses they had that have gone on into other homes, recently or otherwise (there is usually no shortage of these, people call me over all the time at the track).

From breeder, owner, and trainer who went to watch the horse she used to own being shown by his new owner:
"X won his exracehorse class at the show last weekend. He was absolutely perfect! I'm supposed to go pick up some proofs of photos today. I'll show them to you when I get them."

From the wife of a trainer who had sold a horse the previous weekend:
"Did X get settled in okay? I thought my husband was going to cry when he left. That horse was his baby. He fell in love with him the first time he saw him in the gate. He finished last, but he still just had to buy him."

From a trainer/owner of a horse who never made a single dime on the track, got a new home last year:
"Have you heard from X's people lately? What have they been doing with him? Is he going to be in any shows?"

Gossip in the tack shop, regarding a story the trainer a horse in the paddock sale 2 weeks prior had been in that week telling:
"He said the horse was always kind of stand-offish with new people until he got to know them, but that he just took to this guy instantly. He couldn't believe how he just stood there in the stall rubbing all over him. It was like they were meant for each other. He told us that he wasn't going to sell him that day, but when he saw how well they got along, he knew he'd be in the perfect home for him."

Another trainer, of a horse sold last winter:
"Have you heard from the people that bought X? Is she in foal yet? She'll have a beautiful baby for them, you watch."

These are the ones fresh in my mind from this weekend. I get this all the time. Most track owner and trainers are not ogres who could care less.

Eglinton

Dec. 3, 2001, 11:18 AM

Spot...sorry but I know who you are and I am surprised and disgusted. I'm glad I know though because I will not deal with you in the future. It is definitely your choice as to what you do with your horses, but also mine to choose who I deal with and you are not on my list. Going to a dealer and watching a horse trot up and down a driveway is a very risky way of buying a sales horse. You should be prepared for the consequences, or not buy horses.

Erin

Dec. 3, 2001, 11:29 AM

Issues, not individuals, folks. If you can't have this discussion without attacking one another for whatever you believe, I'm going to close it.

Eglinton

Dec. 3, 2001, 11:39 AM

Ooops sorry!

In The Gate

Dec. 3, 2001, 02:26 PM

What happened to about 20 posts on the thread?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Looking now, it appears like Spot has deleted almost all of her posts on this thread.

Grr... now doesn't that make us all look stupid... arguing over nothing... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Oops, make that *all* posts except for the first one.

What was said was said.
Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

BaysAbound

Dec. 3, 2001, 03:29 PM

Spot!
Please come back! Your words are important to me. I need to know another point of veiw and the reasoning behind it. We can agree to disagree but your logic and reasoning gives me insight to myself and others. You wear a "hat" most of us will never wear. I value you words even if I agree or disagree! Please come back!

[This message was edited by BaysAbound on Mar. 19, 2002 at 09:40 AM.]

Rebelspi

Dec. 3, 2001, 03:34 PM

The authors of the posts arent deleting them, moderators are. What doesnt pertain to the subject has been removed...

In The Gate

Dec. 3, 2001, 03:38 PM

Some posts yes, but Spot's posts probably not.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Rebelspi

Dec. 3, 2001, 03:40 PM

why Inthegate?

mine were deleted by mods...hers were pertaining to the arguments as well, fueling the fire so to speak...

In The Gate

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:06 PM

Well, the first post says "Edited by Spot"

And Erin DID encourage us to talk about the issues?

Can the moderators respond please?

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Natty Dread

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:13 PM

Whoa there Nelly...

It has been a few days since I read this entire thread but I gotta say I really can't blame Spot if she did take back everything she said. People got mighty personal.

One point I wanna make because I find it interesting....that everybody that agreed with the basics of what Spot and myself posted seemed to find the most problems with the shipping of horses to slaughter. I find it interesting thats all.

Also I have been e-mailing with Spot privately and find her words intelligent, literate, informative, and entertaining. I have asked around about her and she is well respected. And also if you all care to look some of the horses she has posted on her website they are just to die for. I for one will really miss her but hopefully she is just taking a breather and regrouping.

I love this board. I find it extremely entertaining and informative. I do however find it really difficult to swallow when people post about stuff that they just cannot substantiate or quite obviously know nothing about. The fact is not all people are in it for the sheer love of the animal. But that is not to say that we don't love horses. We have turned it in to a business in order to help off set the costs of our disease. And I find it offensive to me to read posts interpreting what I say into that I am only in it for the money. Well, okay I am in it for the money, but I need the money in order to pay for all the old ones, young ones, green ones, ones I just can't bare to part with. That is not so bad. So please reserve judging people so harshly when I imagine most on this board have paid someone who was in it for the money to get their horses.

I also stand by what I say regarding the slaughtering of horses. I don't love it! I know why there is the market and I don't enjoy the practice in and of itself. But until someone comes up with a better plan it is always gonna remain. And if , and I sincerely hope the day never comes, I ever owned a dangerous piece of crap (hopefully I am smarter then that) I will personally drive it to DeKalb myself!!! As shooting horses in the head is illegal!

NUFF SAID. Juli

In The Gate

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:20 PM

Yes... but she had to know that some people would flame her for it.

I personally, think that what she did with the rogue horse was far better than *many* other solutions. Maybe not the best one, but much better than selling him on.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Louise

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:29 PM

This moderator has not deleted any of Spot's posts, and I really doubt if Erin or any of the other moderators have either. Spot is perfectly within her rights to delete any of her posts that she desires.

This has been an interesting and informative discussion, but Natty Dread is right, Spot has been taking a lot of hits. In my personal opinion, she has stood up remarkably well, and kept her cool and her temper. I'm not going to presume to speak for her, so I'm not going to address why the posts were deleted.

By the way, if the moderators do delete a post, it will either be noted on the thread, or those individuals whose posts have been deleted will be notified of the reason.

coco

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:33 PM

With this issue of horse slaughter, I can't help but think of Shakespeare's words, spoken by Lady MacBeth when she couldn't wash the blood from her hands... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin

Dec. 3, 2001, 04:35 PM

Rebelspi, as I explained in the email I sent to you, Louise deleted your post because it quoted and referred to Kurt's first post, which was deleted because it was too much of a personal attack against Spot. Louise also deleted one other person's post for that reason, I think. They were not deleted for their content, only because they no longer pertained to the discussion since the original post has been removed.

And no, none of the moderators removed Spot's posts.

If you post here, you have to be prepared to have people argue with you and criticize you. We try very hard to keep the discussions focused on issues, but that doesn't mean people can't offer their opinions about what you state in your posts.

Kurt's post was over the line, and was deleted. Eglinton's was borderline, hence the warning.

Rebelspi

Dec. 3, 2001, 05:23 PM

Fred

Dec. 4, 2001, 05:07 AM

I am concerned about the personal attacks at Spot - I know her personally and like her very much. I disagree with her profoundly and absolutely on the issue of sending horses to slaughter. But that is not personal.
I have been in a slaughter house - I used to be a televison writer and producer, and we had to do a story about them.......
but I have a story.
When I was a young girl, I had the best mare ever. She would go anywhere I pointed her - and I pointed her in stupid directions sometimes - down highways, into swamps, through a railway culvert (you know the big round cement thing)! and this mare, former top cutting horse, never batted an eyelash. Well, one day we were out on a hack near the new barn I had moved to. Suddenly she started snorting and blowing - getting increasingly agitated. I couldn't see, hear anything, and squeezed her forward. She started to lunge and leap and shake. The only thing I could see was a low, nondescipt building up ahead... "Highland Packers"... I turned her around - and she nearly ran back down the road. I never came that way again.
Also, does no one else feel revulsion about the terms "piece of crap" and "junk" being used about horses in previous posts?? If a horse is crippled does that horse somehow "deserve" the further torture and punishment of being sent for slaughter? Of course horses have "dollar value" and some horses are "better than others" - but what about intrinsic value?
Which horse is better - the vicious, sneaky international jumper stallion or the sweet natured, endlessly patient, but limited lesson horse that is now too old to crank out a living for someone else....?
And another thing that concerns me is the use of the word "pet". I have no pets. an earlier post brought up the issue of "domestic slaves" - this was a phrase put forward in a book which became something of a bible in the animal rights movement. I understand it and agree philosophically - but disagree with it on a personal basis - it is after all me who cleans out the cat box and wipes up the puke on the rugs...
and I have yet to convince the horses to load the hay into the barn....or to take the poop back out.
But on the other hand, I find the use of the word "pet" derogatory. I have another friend (one of the cute Scottish Cattle judges) who also thinks it is ok to send horses to slaughter. We disagree on this violently - with him exclaiming, "they're no PETS". No they are not pets. There isn't a word that I know to describe for what horses are to me. Perhaps "wards"? I never use the word "own" in regard to them. I am their caretaker, and am responsible to them and for them. It's bloody tough. and I'm not "dewy eyed", nor do I "anthropomorphise'? them - that phrase too - reeks of incredible human arrogance. That we have feelings and emotions is true - but what makes us assume that these are necessarily just "human" emotions and feelings?. Can we use ourselves as the standard against which other animals are measured?? I heard a farmer on the radio a few weeks ago talking AGAINST the issue of improved treatment of food animals... he said, "well, there is no proof that they are sentient...."
I have a buy back arrangement with every horse I sell privately. Horses I have sold through the TB yearling auctions, I have tried to keep track of...
I'm not holding myself up as someone special or "holier than thou" or anything like that -
all of us in our lives make personal choices about ethics,morals, whatever - (somethings are legislated) - but many are day to day decisions about who we are, who we want to be and how we want to live. It has to be personal for each of us. And no I don't eat meat, and Yes I do wear leather. And no I don't think that is hypocritical. Why for God's sake is the issue of animal cruelty or animal rights always presented in black and white terms, "your baby or your beagle".. why can we not constantly question, reevalute our attitudes and methods and take steps towards improving our treatment of the animals we use???
Finally, to address another issue - while I have never seen Spot's stallion under saddle, so cannot speak to that -
we collect our stallions at the same breeding farm - and whenever I have seen him, he has always been absolutely mannerly and calm. Waiting his turn to be bred, mannerly in the breeding shed, and then happily grazing side by side with my stallion while Spot and I chat.
Sorry to go on so long - I had stuff to get off my chest! Rant over for now.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robbierox

Dec. 4, 2001, 06:39 AM

He felt I was being an idealist UNTIL he went to the Owen Sound, Ontario facility and watched the process.
Owen Sound has been closed for YEARS. HOWEVER,
I have police friends that went up there years ago to see what happens and they said it was very humane and not at all what they expected.
I think if there is any chance that a horse of this nature might hurt someone, or if there is any chance that if you gave it away, the next person might sell it to someone unsuspecting, that you did the right thing by euthanising. How you euthanise, at home or buy shipping it off for meat, is entirely your choice.

JennieColangelo

Dec. 4, 2001, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Rebelspi, as I explained in the email I sent to you, Louise deleted your post because it quoted and referred to Kurt's first post, which was deleted because it was too much of a personal attack against Spot. Louise also deleted one other person's post for that reason, I think. They were not deleted for their content, only because they no longer pertained to the discussion since the original post has been removed.

And no, none of the moderators removed Spot's posts.

If you post here, you have to be prepared to have people argue with you and criticize you. We try very hard to keep the discussions focused on issues, but that doesn't mean people can't offer their opinions about what you state in your posts.

Kurt's post was over the line, and was deleted. Eglinton's was borderline, hence the warning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had one of my posts deleted because I was angry at the personal attack on Spot. I dont htink it was right... it is a discussion, not a flaming board.. like i've said before, spots decision is hers and hers alone, we have NO right to critizize her for it. I may not completely agree with it, but hey, she seems to have done well in this business so far, how bout the cirizim toward her stops, and the dicussion turns back to the Slaughter VS. Euthinization topic. I liked that

Thanks,
Jennie

Portia

Dec. 4, 2001, 12:50 PM

Kurt, a personal attack isn't any less personal because you don't use a name, not when it is perfectly obvious to whom you are referring. I am deleting your post for now, sending a copy to Erin, and let her make the final decision whether it should be reinstated or not.

If you feel you have had a bad experience with someone, then deal with that person directly, not here. These boards are not to be used for unsupported personal attacks. If you can substantiate accusations with documentation such as objective, published reports and/or a final judgment in a lawsuit, then you can post about them. Otherwise, keep it private and keep it off here.

Erin

Dec. 4, 2001, 12:54 PM

This board is NOT to be used to attack other posters. Unless what you're saying has appeared IN PRINT or has been documented IN COURT, don't you dare post it here. We have no way of verifying if anything else is true.

The motto of the Internet -- caveat emptor. These boards are here to help educate people about how to be good, responsible horse owners and how NOT to get roped into deals with irreputable people. If someone is naive enough to take everything they read on this board to be gospel, well, that's their problem. I'm not going to let people badmouth each other here, even if it is with the supposed intent of protecting others.

Kurt, if you post about this subject again, I'm banning you from the board. This simply isn't the place for it.

If this thread does not IMMEDIATELY turn to issues rather than individuals, it will be closed. I've given enough warnings.

Kurt

Dec. 4, 2001, 12:58 PM

I'm not insulting anyones intellegence, I hope. I'm sure if most of you would do anything, even unhorse related, over the internet, you would look long and hard into it before doing anything. But I've see it happen, especially with very convincing people.
I know very well that the horse world is a small one. And I wouldn't say anything that wasn't true. I've only said what I know horse-wise.

Portia

Dec. 4, 2001, 01:02 PM

I deleted Coco's response to Kurt's post because it was a clear misstatement of what Spot had previously posted. It was a personal attack just as Kurt's post was a personal attack.

I sent a copy of it to Erin, and if Erin wants to re-post it, she has that option.

Erin

Dec. 5, 2001, 05:41 AM

People, this discussion is about euthanasia, slaughter, etc. -- if that's not what you're posting about, DON'T post.

Kafue

Dec. 5, 2001, 06:19 AM

Sorry.

TrakHack

Dec. 5, 2001, 11:19 AM

Why is the slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep, etc. more acceptable (in some people's opinions) than that of horses?

JennieColangelo

Dec. 5, 2001, 05:19 PM

well.. I personnally am not against SLAUGHTER of horses.. i personally wouldn't eat a equi-patty, but thats cause I love horses.. but I am opposed to the things they have to endure before their slaughter, as I am with chickens, pigs, cows, turkeys, etc. I eat meat... but basically very little. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Thanks,
Jennie

tyedyecommando

Dec. 5, 2001, 07:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sister:
Why is the slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep, etc. more acceptable (in some people's opinions) than that of horses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because (as opposed to cattle, pigs, sheep, etc) nearly all people on this board see horses more as companions rather than livestock. To us slaughtering horses is on the same level as slaughtering a dog or cat. Also, usually the above livestock is specifically bred for slaughter not recreation.

[This message was edited by tyedyecommando on Dec. 06, 2001 at 12:05 PM.]

TrakHack

Dec. 6, 2001, 11:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyedyecommando:

Also, usually the above livestock is specifically bred for slaughter not recreation.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eating's not recreation /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif?

As I posted way back when on an earlier page, we are breeding animals for our (human) personal use and benefit, whether that's for companionship, recreation, entertainment, income, or consumption. What if hunting (and killing) these animals was our form of recreation? Would that be acceptable?

tyedyecommando

Dec. 6, 2001, 12:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Eating's not recreation ?

As I posted way back when on an earlier page, we are breeding animals for our (human) personal use and benefit, whether that's for companionship, recreation, entertainment, income, or consumption. What if hunting (and killing) these animals was our form of recreation? Would that be acceptable?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't figure out if you are being a smart ass or being serious. No one has brought up hunting yet in the thread so far; however, I would bet that the response would be similar to the one already in progress.

If you want to go out and hunt horses, dogs, or cats to eat then go for it, just don't shoot my horse or dog. Provided you eat them and don't leave the carcus on the ground.

In my little made up history book, the main reason that cows, pigs and the like were domesticated were so they could be eaten. Horse were domesticated for riding and plowing yada yada. Although they did get eaten when the human got in a bind.

Eating is fun, but if I had as much fun eating as I don in other recreational activities I would be big as a house.

In a related question: I was wondering if it was "legal" for a human in the US to consume horse meat. I thought I heard somewhere that it was but I didn't know.

Erin

Dec. 6, 2001, 01:07 PM

I believe slaughtering horses for food (or maybe at all?) is illegal in a state or two (California?), or someone is trying to make it illegal, but I can't imagine that it's illegal to consume horsemeat.

TrakHack

Dec. 6, 2001, 01:35 PM

Although I can be a smart-ass, I am being serious here /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I am a vegetarian, I don't hunt, and I could not send a horse to slaughter. The reasons that I could not send a horse to slaughter are the same for not sending any animal to slaughter via my consumption of it; I can't draw a line between horses and cows (or pigs or sheep...). I can keep animals as companions, and for recreation, and still sleep at night, but I don't think I could make a living from them, and I know I can't eat them. I have mixed feelings about animals being used for entertainment.

This discussion has really made me think about the values I hold and how they determine the actions I take, and what impact those actions have upon other living beings.

Jill /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 7, 2001, 08:33 AM

I don't really have a problem with horsemeat for consumption, but do have a major problem with transportation and the way it is carried out. I also don't see much of a difference in cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, etc. as I would not be able to own one of those and slaughter it either. Heck, my son is still trying to get me to recsue the lobsters at the grocery store /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (we don't eat them either) I do eat meat, but choose not to eat some animals - lamb & veal come to mind along with something called "Baby Back Ribs - eek!). I also would never own a cow (even a dairy cow) as I would probably never eat beef again. Horses for me are out of the question as are cats, dogs, and guinnea pigs!

I don't think there are any horses that deserve to be sent on a horrible trip to a scary and horrible death. I don't think they are responsible for the way they become due to handling and their environment. I also think other animals don't deserve that kind of death either, and would be willing to pay more to ensure a humane killing.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com