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View Full Version : What is it? Tamara, maybe?



katyb
May. 20, 2012, 02:25 PM
We rode at Baker's Creek yesterday, through fields of wheat, and also fields of this stuff. It looks a lot like the wheat from a distance, but has pods like this.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7980.jpg

So, what is it?

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 02:27 PM
We rode at Baker's Creek yesterday, through fields of wheat, and also fields of this stuff. It looks a lot like the wheat from a distance, but has pods like this.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7980.jpg

So, what is it?

oats was the vote from here

Tamara

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 02:41 PM
Huh. It doesn't look like I think oats look, but then I'm wondering how I know what oats look like in the field. Maybe I don't.

Thanks!

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 02:45 PM
http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x4384692/ear_of_oats_in_an_oat_field_949456.jpg

Tamara

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 02:50 PM
Calvin says some guys in Loudon Co. grow a forage oat that is darker than most when dry like that...

Tamara

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 02:56 PM
That must be it. Thanks. The horses liked it, but I think they liked the wheat better. It's like a horsey buffet out there right now, although some of the fields have been completely killed off this year. Have you been there? It's an interesting place. Much of it is planted in corn this year; last year it was soybeans.

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 03:00 PM
Is it where the old Kennels were on the river??
I have been there.

Tamara

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 03:06 PM
I know it is where the old fox hunt was. Is that what you mean? I really don't know how the use of the property is determined. It's obviously public lands, but private farmers utilize it. It's a cool place.

Here's a link to part of our ride, except I haven't mastered My Tracks yet, so you have to zoom in. There were probably ten trailers there yesterday, but we only saw one group of riders.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203757168660062924348.0004c06c82a40dddb095 b&msa=0&ll=35.632221,-84.228187&spn=0.016394,0.032573

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 03:19 PM
seems nice...the fixture I have been to is in upper NE knox county

Tamara

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 03:26 PM
No - this is on Tellico, in Greenback, right across from Rarity Bay.

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 03:34 PM
yes which would make the black forage oats more plausible

Tamara

Bluey
May. 20, 2012, 04:31 PM
Hard to tell proportions from that picture, but it seems like a funny kind of oat.

I was expecting to see some seed with smut on it, a black fungus, but that doesn't quite look right for that either.

A bit less close up may make determining what it is better, maybe more than one stalk.
I don't think I can cross my eyes enough to see anything that small, unless they are way larger than normal.;)

Alagirl
May. 20, 2012, 04:47 PM
there is also a weed variety of oats. But it certainly looks like a grass of the oat family (if that is a even a scientific way)

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 06:01 PM
Sorry about the photo, but it was hard getting my camera to focus on the whatever, while also riding. The pod or whatever they are, are about the size of a raisen, and the seeds were the right size to be oats, I guess.

This is it, growing.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7974-1.jpg

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 08:40 PM
cross referenced with Calvin
that is the exact place his friend grows the black forage oats
he even talked to him about people riding thru the crops but as it is TVA land there is not much the farmers can do about it.

Tamara

Bluey
May. 20, 2012, 08:45 PM
cross referenced with Calvin
that is the exact place his friend grows the black forage oats
he even talked to him about people riding thru the crops but as it is TVA land there is not much the farmers can do about it.

Tamara

It hurts my feelings to see anyone trampling a crop of any kind.
People should stay out of fields when there is something growing there, just as you would stay out of your garden.
Every place we trail rode, we would have lost our riding privileges if we had done that, as the crops get damaged.:(

ljcfoh
May. 20, 2012, 08:50 PM
It hurts my feelings to see anyone trampling a crop of any kind.
People should stay out of fields when there is something growing there, just as you would stay out of your garden.
Every place we trail rode, we would have lost our riding privileges if we had done that, as the crops get damaged.:(

I thought you "had" to stay off the fields when the crops were growing? Or maybe I was just scared enough of the farmers (!) that I always did. That's someone's hard earned money underfoot and being the "buffet." :(

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 09:23 PM
It hurts my feelings to see anyone trampling a crop of any kind.
People should stay out of fields when there is something growing there, just as you would stay out of your garden.
Every place we trail rode, we would have lost our riding privileges if we had done that, as the crops get damaged.:(

they lease it from the power giant TVA and TVA has made it "public" land as well and so the farmers have to share it with the riders....they can't complain about it.

Tamara

Alagirl
May. 20, 2012, 09:31 PM
cross referenced with Calvin
that is the exact place his friend grows the black forage oats
he even talked to him about people riding thru the crops but as it is TVA land there is not much the farmers can do about it.

Tamara

well, true, but it is bad trail etiquette.

But then again, one can leave a machine's width around the edge as right of way when you know you have traffic.

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 09:36 PM
well, true, but it is bad trail etiquette.
But then again, one can leave a machine's width around the edge as right of way when you know you have traffic.

you are already losing the crop underfoot...why would you plant less intentionally off the bat? anyway...none of my affair and just a total coincidence that she and I were talking about the same fields.

Tamara

Alagirl
May. 20, 2012, 09:39 PM
you are already losing the crop underfoot...why would you plant less intentionally off the bat? anyway...none of my affair and just a total coincidence that she and i were talking about the same fields.

Tamara


depends on the traffic I'd say.

Likely a couple riders here don't kill more than a bucket's worth of grain. But you get bigger groups or more riders...oye.

katyb
May. 20, 2012, 09:51 PM
It hurts my feelings to see anyone trampling a crop of any kind.
People should stay out of fields when there is something growing there, just as you would stay out of your garden.
Every place we trail rode, we would have lost our riding privileges if we had done that, as the crops get damaged.:(

These are public lands - well used for lots of activities. They don't belong to any farmer, and they cannot restrict public access. I think most riders are pretty careful, keeping to tractor tires tracks and deer paths. I think they might be better served to leave paths around their crops, but they don't. If this were private, cultivated land, I would agree with you, but it is not. The price they pay for using it, in part at least, is the willingness to have it open to horseback riders, hunters, hikers, and mountain bikers.

Edited to add...I posted before Tamara addressed this, so sorry for the duplication.

Often, many of the fields aren't harvested. I don't know if some of it is specifically planted as forage for wildlife, or if it is some kind of experimental planting or what the explanation is.

Tamara in TN
May. 20, 2012, 10:07 PM
These are public lands - well used for lots of activities. They don't belong to any farmer, and they cannot restrict public access. I think most riders are pretty careful, keeping to tractor tires tracks and deer paths. I think they might be better served to leave paths around their crops, but they don't. .

keeping a trail around the edges then involves going back to the fields and mowing the verges to keep them clean....

the trail riders won't do it,TVA won't do it and the farmers already lose enough as it is, so they are not going back over in mid summer to bush hog the verges...


coming from total private land ownership/leasing my husband was stunned to see tracks in the fields...it was the one reason he did not want the hunt coming here to foxhunt so many years ago...he gets more than a little freaky about people in his crops....

the farmer was a bit more blase about it all....it's like a storm coming...you just hunker down and ride it out

the farmers "fees" to TVA are paid by way of leaving 30% of the crop standing for the wildlife...a 30% loss on seed and diesel and time and effort adds up to real money in the end

anyway,again....none of my business one way or another...

Tamara

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 07:27 AM
Thanks for that information, Tamara. I always wondered about that. It's interesting to have forage cultivated and hunting in the same place. It is an unusual area in many respects.

If it weren't a recreation area, I don't think it would be around for the farmers to use, so I think the "price" of horses/bikes/hikers traveling through is pretty reasonable, assuming it is otherwise a profitable enterprise. Having grown up with local farmers as the guys who made it possible for me to ride, I'm aware of the issues regarding riding in/around/through crops. My most recent farming neighbor did leave a track around each field, for his own benefit in accessing the next field. I can see why coming back to mow would be more work at Baker's Creek than it would be worth. I didn't see much traffic damage to these crops. There are deer (I'm assuming) tracks throughout, tractor tracks, and these wallow areas that I had been told were caused by wild boar, but someone else said it's just wind. Those are definitely the most "damaged" areas.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7958.jpg

Edited to add - when I have come across the farmers working out there, they have been nothing but pleasant and friendly. If there is any resentment towards recreational users, they hide it well.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 08:22 AM
well, true, but it is bad trail etiquette.

But then again, one can leave a machine's width around the edge as right of way when you know you have traffic.



If you look at the My Tracks I posted earlier, you'll see that pretty much the entire place is cultivated. It would have to be closed to public use to keep people off the crops. If that were to happen, I don't think the farmers would get to use the land either. It's a compromise on everyone's part (recreational users obviously have to stay off certain areas while they are being worked, and we take the risk of exposure to whatever the farmers are spraying/applying to the fields), and I haven't heard any complaints about the arrangement from anyone involved. As I said earlier, whenever we have run into people working the fields, they have been friendly and at least appear to be happy to see us. We have stopped and chatted numerous times, and it's always been cordial.

Bluey
May. 21, 2012, 08:24 AM
I don't know why the crop is down right there, but feral hogs leave the ground like someone plowed it in all directions, full of large holes and dug up dirt, not like that there.

I don't think farmers would resent people wandering around where they can.
It still hurts my feelings to see anything trampled thru, even if I understand why it is happening, be it humans or feral hogs or whatever causes it.
Part of life, I guess.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 08:37 AM
I don't know why the crop is down right there, but feral hogs leave the ground like someone plowed it in all directions, full of large holes and dug up dirt, not like that there.

I don't think farmers would resent people wandering around where they can.
It still hurts my feelings to see anything trampled thru, even if I understand why it is happening, be it humans or feral hogs or whatever causes it.
Part of life, I guess.

I guess, but it beats the heck out of no crops at all.

Since I've seen (and caused, obviously) the damage, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. We couldn't even find our own paths after we made them, so I don't see any significant issue. I'm sure a large gang of rowdy riders could do some real damage, but I don't see that happening.

KateWooten
May. 21, 2012, 08:51 AM
It's so funny how in the rest of the world, people manage to share the earth quite happily, with people able to walk across terrain and not just up and down the driveway to the mailbox in their subdivision.

rustbreeches
May. 21, 2012, 08:53 AM
well, true, but it is bad trail etiquette.

But then again, one can leave a machine's width around the edge as right of way when you know you have traffic.

Yes, but even a machine width can't fix stupid. I grew up with "stay to the edge" "Don't let your pony eat it" and "Close the gate" being drilled into my head, so stories about riding THROUGH a crop are hard to understand. It is a pity that as a whole, the US thinks everyone lives to accomodate them.

Tamara in TN
May. 21, 2012, 09:07 AM
Tand these wallow areas that I had been told were caused by wild boar, but someone else said it's just wind. Those are definitely the most "damaged" areas.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7958.jpg

Edited to add - when I have come across the farmers working out there, they have been nothing but pleasant and friendly. If there is any resentment towards recreational users, they hide it well.

you show a picture of a crop that has lodged (or fallen over) from it's own weight or wind bearing on it or both....had there been hogs there the ground would be rooted bare and large runaways left by their snouts

Tamara

Ghazzu
May. 21, 2012, 09:43 AM
Yes, but even a machine width can't fix stupid. I grew up with "stay to the edge" "Don't let your pony eat it" and "Close the gate" being drilled into my head, so stories about riding THROUGH a crop are hard to understand. It is a pity that as a whole, the US thinks everyone lives to accomodate them.


My upbringing, as well.
And I'd add, "stay off when it's wet".

Tamara in TN
May. 21, 2012, 09:55 AM
depends on the traffic I'd say.

Likely a couple riders here don't kill more than a bucket's worth of grain. But you get bigger groups or more riders...oye.

you are not killing thru trampling, you are shucking the ripe grains to the ground as you shake them where they are lost to the combines....that leaves only lesser value straw standing

Tamara

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 11:17 AM
you are not killing thru trampling, you are shucking the ripe grains to the ground as you shake them where they are lost to the combines....that leaves only lesser value straw standing

Tamara

Well, at that stage anyhow. :)

Alas, I thought I was a renegade once upon a time when I dared to ride 2 or 3 feet inside a field where there was more grass than crops, so I would not accidentally kill myself and my horse on the barbed wire fence that all but disappeared in the tall grass....
Per trip I suppose no more than a bucketful would be lost.

sk_pacer
May. 21, 2012, 11:35 AM
Per trip I suppose no more than a bucketful would be lost.

Those bucketsful add up. A bucketful of some grains can be half a bushel by weight (grains are sold by weight FYI) and a trail or 10 tracked through a field can bring considerable loss in easily shelled out grains like oats and pulse crops.

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 11:45 AM
Those bucketsful add up. A bucketful of some grains can be half a bushel by weight (grains are sold by weight FYI) and a trail or 10 tracked through a field can bring considerable loss in easily shelled out grains like oats and pulse crops.


:lol::lol::lol:

I am trying to concede to Tamara, stop making my point! :lol::lol::lol:

if you have a lot of traffic it would be easier to just leave a trail unfarmed. But a rider here and there, no problem (but I would break out in hives were I to ride through the middle of a farmed field, regardless whether it belonged to the TSA or a private person. Ingrained behavior)

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 02:17 PM
you show a picture of a crop that has lodged (or fallen over) from it's own weight or wind bearing on it or both....had there been hogs there the ground would be rooted bare and large runaways left by their snouts

Tamara

The surrounding crop appeared no different from those very distinct areas though. There were at least a dozen similar areas, randomly placed. In fact, several of these areas where in less mature (if that's the right word) sections were the wheat wasn't as tall.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 02:22 PM
Those bucketsful add up. A bucketful of some grains can be half a bushel by weight (grains are sold by weight FYI) and a trail or 10 tracked through a field can bring considerable loss in easily shelled out grains like oats and pulse crops.

Again, and then I'm done, if these farmers don't want people riding through their crops, then they should plant on PRIVATE property. This land is public property and cultivated year round, as well as being used recreationally year round. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the riders (of bikes and horses), hunters, and hikers to not use this area so that the farmers can. The way the set up currently operates, everyone benefits, and strangely enough, I haven't heard anyone actually involved in it complaining one bit.

Tamara, I appreciate the information. It was interesting.

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 02:42 PM
Again, and then I'm done, if these farmers don't want people riding through their crops, then they should plant on PRIVATE property. This land is public property and cultivated year round, as well as being used recreationally year round. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the riders (of bikes and horses), hunters, and hikers to not use this area so that the farmers can. The way the set up currently operates, everyone benefits, and strangely enough, I haven't heard anyone actually involved in it complaining one bit.

Tamara, I appreciate the information. It was interesting.


whoa now.

Without the farmers spending money on the fields there would not be an open area to ride through.
Regardless of the specific situation of the area you were at, it is generally considered extremely rude to ride through crops, let alone making more than one track through it.

I am glad you have the opportunity to enjoy the landscape provided to you by farming. It is not the norm and needs to be cherished and protected with outmost courtesy.
Recreational use is a privilege.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 02:51 PM
whoa now.

Without the farmers spending money on the fields there would not be an open area to ride through.
Regardless of the specific situation of the area you were at, it is generally considered extremely rude to ride through crops, let alone making more than one track through it.

I am glad you have the opportunity to enjoy the landscape provided to you by farming. It is not the norm and needs to be cherished and protected with outmost courtesy.
Recreational use is a privilege.

Farming public lands is also a privilege, one they are afforded because the property is set aside for recreational use.

Again, there is no way to ride without riding through the crops. They plant the entire area between the road they use for equipment and the lake. This is primarily a recreational area, not a farm that allows recreational users. As I keep repeating, these are public lands. TVA had to allow for public recreational use as part of the deal when they purchased the property to flood to create the lake. Our right to recreational use is guaranteed under that process.

Aggie4Bar
May. 21, 2012, 02:53 PM
I grew up with "stay to the edge" "Don't let your pony eat it" and "Close the gate" being drilled into my head, so stories about riding THROUGH a crop are hard to understand. It is a pity that as a whole, the US thinks everyone lives to accomodate them.My upbringing, as well.
And I'd add, "stay off when it's wet".
Me, three. And "stay off the grass". Amazes me to see foot-trails through lawns and landscaping when there's a walkway/sidewalk right there. Generally speaking, I do think riders are more considerate than the average pedestrian.

Tamara in TN
May. 21, 2012, 03:03 PM
Farming public lands is also a privilege, one they are afforded because the property is set aside for recreational use.
.

one that the Bailey family pays 1/3 of their total crop for,in the specific case of that area.

Tamara

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 03:13 PM
Farming public lands is also a privilege, one they are afforded because the property is set aside for recreational use.

Again, there is no way to ride without riding through the crops. They plant the entire area between the road they use for equipment and the lake. This is primarily a recreational area, not a farm that allows recreational users. As I keep repeating, these are public lands. TVA had to allow for public recreational use as part of the deal when they purchased the property to flood to create the lake. Our right to recreational use is guaranteed under that process.


It could likely be turned into a protected habitat when people continue to be inconsiderate.
The farmer is not really getting rich of the land he is privileged to farm. But without his work there would be no enjoyable area to ride through. Respect a person's work as you would want yours to be respected.

Should the farmers decline the privilege of having their crops trampled, do the math on who will be doing (and paying for) the upkeep. Without farming the area would be dense forest.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 03:49 PM
one that the Bailey family pays 1/3 of their total crop for,in the specific case of that area.

Tamara

It must be a good deal for them, or I assume they wouldn't be doing it.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 03:54 PM
It could likely be turned into a protected habitat when people continue to be inconsiderate.
The farmer is not really getting rich of the land he is privileged to farm. But without his work there would be no enjoyable area to ride through. Respect a person's work as you would want yours to be respected.

Should the farmers decline the privilege of having their crops trampled, do the math on who will be doing (and paying for) the upkeep. Without farming the area would be dense forest.

Dense forest makes for pretty nice trail riding too, you know. While I enjoy seeing the fields of wheat, or roundbales, or oats (apparently), they are not providing any service of benefit to the recreational user. Their equipment tears up the roads, requiring gravel fill that isn't pleasant for horses, hikers, bikers, or hunters. Most of our similar trail riding areas are not farmed, and they are well maintained (generally by private clubs) and accessible.

I think most users of this land are quite respectful of the crops. As I have stated before, there is no visible damage to the crops, other than that caused by the farmer's equipment, wildlife, and apparently, according to Tamara, the wind. I think the arrangement is working fine for everyone involved, as much is it might be irritating those of you who have never, and most likely will never, visit the area.

cowboymom
May. 21, 2012, 03:57 PM
ha-farmers often have to take whatever deal they can get.

It's really bad manners to ride in any crop like that, whether you have the "right" or not... and you said there were 10 horse trailers... and that really adds up.

Better hope the company that owns the land is into weed control-if the farmer gets run out of there by too many inconsiderate riders ruining the slim profit margin that whole area will be weeds and nothing else unless the company rehabs it back to uh.. a crop. ;)

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 04:00 PM
Dense forest makes for pretty nice trail riding too, you know. While I enjoy seeing the fields of wheat, or roundbales, or oats (apparently), they are not providing any service of benefit to the recreational user. Their equipment tears up the roads, requiring gravel fill that isn't pleasant for horses, hikers, bikers, or hunters. Most of our similar trail riding areas are not farmed, and they are well maintained (generally by private clubs) and accessible.

I think most users of this land are quite respectful of the crops. As I have stated before, there is no visible damage to the crops, other than that caused by the farmer's equipment, wildlife, and apparently, according to Tamara, the wind. I think the arrangement is working fine for everyone involved, as much is it might be irritating those of you who have never, and most likely will never, visit the area.

No, honey, that kind of forest won't allow for riding...

But keep on keeping on. By the time I get to visit the area the farmers might have thrown in the towel and it won't be as nice to ride through there anymore.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 04:14 PM
No, honey, that kind of forest won't allow for riding...

But keep on keeping on. By the time I get to visit the area the farmers might have thrown in the towel and it won't be as nice to ride through there anymore.

Well, come and visit, and we'll see. We do ride through densely forested areas here here, obviously. There are trails throughout the Smoky Mountains, as well as many of our state parks and wildlife areas. Come visit, maybe you'd feel differently about the whole thing.

I was assuming you were from Alabama, but maybe not? I've ridden some trails through dense forests there as well.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 04:15 PM
ha-farmers often have to take whatever deal they can get.

It's really bad manners to ride in any crop like that, whether you have the "right" or not... and you said there were 10 horse trailers... and that really adds up.

Better hope the company that owns the land is into weed control-if the farmer gets run out of there by too many inconsiderate riders ruining the slim profit margin that whole area will be weeds and nothing else unless the company rehabs it back to uh.. a crop. ;)

It's public land. How is that not computing?

Tamara in TN
May. 21, 2012, 04:17 PM
It must be a good deal for them, or I assume they wouldn't be doing it.

Farmers consider it impolite to discuss such things.
They farm a lot of ground in addition and on top of the Bakers Creek area
No farmer could take a 1/3 hit to their crop year after year as the sole income.

and have been good friends to us when we needed them.

Tamara

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 04:21 PM
It's public land. How is that not computing?

The farmer is putting money into the crops. How is THAT not computing?

Bluey
May. 21, 2012, 05:41 PM
To be a good steward of the land means to care for what is out there, if your, someone else or everyone's land.

That means to use it and understand there will be some trade-offs, but also that we should tread lightly.
To ride thru in ways we do less rather than more damage is the polite thing to do.

I understand that those that never cared for land don't know any better.
Once they learn there is a difference and a better way, why not?:(


Half a century ago we let anyone that wanted come have picnics and fish in the ponds we stocked.
We had Easter Rise services in a canyon and youth horsemanship clubs and special school out afternoons, etc.
People had grown on the land or had kinfolks that still did and kids were taught what to look for and to respect things.

Finally, it got where everyone else out here had to close access to the public, because so many were disturbing our livestock and wildlife, we are a wildlife preserve also, leaving trash every place and disturbing the peace of the quiet ones.

Now people complain they don't have any place to go to enjoy the outdoors but public lands.
I wonder why?:rolleyes:

Alagirl
May. 21, 2012, 07:07 PM
To be a good steward of the land means to care for what is out there, if your, someone else or everyone's land.

That means to use it and understand there will be some trade-offs, but also that we should tread lightly.
To ride thru in ways we do less rather than more damage is the polite thing to do.

I understand that those that never cared for land don't know any better.
Once they learn there is a difference and a better way, why not?:(


Half a century ago we let anyone that wanted come have picnics and fish in the ponds we stocked.
We had Easter Rise services in a canyon and youth horsemanship clubs and special school out afternoons, etc.
People had grown on the land or had kinfolks that still did and kids were taught what to look for and to respect things.

Finally, it got where everyone else out here had to close access to the public, because so many were disturbing our livestock and wildlife, we are a wildlife preserve also, leaving trash every place and disturbing the peace of the quiet ones.

Now people complain they don't have any place to go to enjoy the outdoors but public lands.
I wonder why?:rolleyes:


you are so much more diplomatic than me...


:cool:

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 08:34 PM
So, you guys just wouldn't ride there?

Bluey
May. 21, 2012, 08:56 PM
So, you guys just wouldn't ride there?

Sure, ride there, just find paths around the fields when they have crops in there ready to harvest or just newly planted.

I would say those public lands have more than just fields that can't be avoided trampling thru.

If others bulldoze thru the fields, well, let it be on their conscience.

katyb
May. 21, 2012, 09:27 PM
You really can't ride to the lake, in an area where you can get in the lake (which is the whole point), without going through cultivated fields. There are no paths around the fields to the lake (again, in an accessible point. We tried a nice beachy looking area accessed through the woods on our last trip, but that beach was more like quicksand, and my friend's lovely gelding sunk to his belly immediately). There is an interior road, surrounded by fields of crops, on a peninsula into the lake.

Again, here's our track. As you can see, we (and riders I've seen there, but maybe not all riders) stick to the route that is least likely to impact the crops, but there is no way to avoid them completely in this place, unless you are content riding a dirt/gravel road.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203757168660062924348.0004c06c87d433b97191 7&msa=0&ll=35.62514,-84.236727&spn=0.015593,0.030556

I think the arrangement in place works well for everyone involved. I don't think the farmers would continue the arrangement if it weren't working out for them financially. I have wondered if some of the crops were experimental, as you will see things there that aren't typical for our area. I've found it an interesting and enjoyable place to ride, and as I've said before, anyone I have encountered working out there has been nothing but welcoming, pleasant, and friendly.

Bluey
May. 21, 2012, 10:01 PM
Sounds like you are already minimizing the impact of your group on the crops.:)

cowboymom
May. 22, 2012, 08:19 AM
it may be public land but the crop belongs to the farmer.

I would vastly prefer to ride on a dirt road instead of wallowing around in a standing crop.

sk_pacer
May. 22, 2012, 10:26 AM
it may be public land but the crop belongs to the farmer.

I would vastly prefer to ride on a dirt road instead of wallowing around in a standing crop.

You and me both. Nothing quite compares to chasing a loose cow out of a wheat field.......loads of fun.

katyb
May. 22, 2012, 02:14 PM
it may be public land but the crop belongs to the farmer.

I would vastly prefer to ride on a dirt road instead of wallowing around in a standing crop.

Well, then, you do that. We are blessed with trails covering a huge variety of terrain here, and I feel ridiculously fortunate to be able to enjoy it all.

katarine
May. 22, 2012, 02:28 PM
I cannot comprehend willfully riding through someone's crop when I could access the same area via dirt roads.

Kate66
May. 22, 2012, 02:46 PM
Being brought up in Scotland, where there basically is no law of trespass and you can pretty much ride anywhere legally, I was also brought up that if you went through a cropped field, you stuck to the edges. We could ride through private farmland, open gates and go anywhere.

I can see the OPs point that this is designated recreational land and therefore the farmers are just using it the same as anyone else is, so no-one has a right more than anyone else. I guess part of the difference is that the farmer puts in significant investment (granted, that his/her choice) in order to get their crop out of it.

katarine
May. 22, 2012, 02:49 PM
Exactly, Kate: At the very least, minimize damage with single file riding at a slow walk where you just must cut through a crop. I think she is doing that, if I read her subsequent posts right...that's money you are tromping through, after all ;)

cowboymom
May. 22, 2012, 03:48 PM
Well, then, you do that. We are blessed with trails covering a huge variety of terrain here, and I feel ridiculously fortunate to be able to enjoy it all.

I think I am more blessed than you are, I manage to ride in all sorts of terrain from mountain top to field-side and never trample a farmer's crop with a single hoof. :yes:

I was just going off of the pictures you posted where you were indeed wallowing around out in the field. Knock yourself out though, just saying that I wouldn't do that to someone's grain crop even if they told me they were taking it as collateral damage.

rustbreeches
May. 22, 2012, 07:01 PM
I cannot comprehend willfully riding through someone's crop when I could access the same area via dirt roads.

I can't comprehend it even if there were no other access point. Barring a fire I needed to evacuate from, I would find one of the other trails they are so blessed with in the area and hold off on my oat field forays until after harvest. Sure wouldn't brag about someone's livelihood being a horsey buffet

jawa
May. 22, 2012, 07:34 PM
My mouth dropped when I read about her horse's buffet. Mainly because I felt like I was listening to someone brag about stealing. Even if it's just a couple of jelly beans, and "wouldn't hurt the store owner's bottom line", its still stealing.

It may be public land, but you didn't pay for the herbicide, pesticide, fuel for the tractor, cost of the seed, labor or for the equipment that went into planting that crop. It is not YOURS to do with as you will.

You original and most of your follow up posts show that you have a total disregard for someone else's livelihood.

I looked at your track (https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203757168660062924348.0004c06c82a40dddb095 b&msa=0&ll=35.632221,-84.228187&spn=0.016394,0.032573) and it shows "hedge rows" around the fields that you road through the middle. Even if the fields are planted all the way to the hedge row / tree line, this is the appropriate place for you to ride. The farmer will have lost the most crop in these areas already due to competition for resources with the native plants and the wildlife will eat here first because of the close cover.

The only time to ride through the middle of a field is if it has been harvested or not yet planted. If it is wet to the point that you would leave a footprint more than 1/4-1/2 deep, you shouldn't ride through the middle. This is due to most farmers using a no till farming practice. That divot you left will be there for a long time and will hold extra water, creating a spot that won't grow as well. (Causing less productive soil.)

But I'm sure you'll still spout the same phrases you have all along, so I guess that leaves me preaching to the rest of the choir who have tried to explain why its bad form to ride through the middle of someone else's crop.

Ambitious Kate
May. 22, 2012, 07:38 PM
Ok, here's the way it is around here, and the way I was brought up.

As for fields, in general, you don't ride through someone's crop, period. That's their work and money and you don't get to decide whether its their owned land, leased land, or granted land, its their crop and you don't ride through it. Around here, there have always been a work road around the edges, and you stick to that. Most farmers don't mind you riding across their land, whether they own it or lease it, as long as you don't damage the crop and stick to the tractor roads around the edges.

I was always taught to close gates, don't eat the crop if it isn't yours and don't damage the crop by walking on it. Hay fields are off limits, except for the machine road around the edge or edges until the season is over. After that, most fields are available for riding. Many towns have long standing hay fields which are town property, and recreational property, but a farmer leases them and hays the crop, and you don't ride in it or walk through it during the growing season. Afterwords, if the town allows horses on it, you can ride and even give lessons on it.

State forests - horse clubs get permission to build jumps through the forest, and other groups wouldn't dismantle the jumps to make, say, their own bow and arrow targets. The jumps belong to the group who put the money into building them and just because its public land doesn't mean you can dismantle them if they are in your way for your activity. If they were, you would find out from the forestry folks whose they are, talk to the horse clubs and see what we could do to help you have your use of the area, too, such as relocate the jump for your dirt bikes, or create a go around or something. You don't just dismantle what other people have rightfully with permission installed on the land.

During upland birds season, we don't ride in certain parts of the forest so we don't scatter the game. If the boy scouts build a rock walk through a stream, we don't dismantle it, even if its in the3 way of the horses, we try to work with them about our needs.

In some public areas, town lands, people are allowed to plant victory gardens - harkening back to wWII - when you planted gardens for veggies on public land - you don't get to eat the food out of someone's garden even if its planted on public land. Its not your garden.

I would never trample through someone's crop on public land just because It was public land and I felt I had a right to ride on it. I would contact the public land people and me and my friends would help to keep the machine road clear along the edge of the field during the growing season and work with the farmer to get him to let there be a machine road along one side.
But that's me - actually, that's how its done here in my part of the country.

mp
May. 22, 2012, 09:28 PM
Farmers consider it impolite to discuss such things.

On a par with asking ranchers how many head of cattle they run, I would imagine.


So, you guys just wouldn't ride there?

I would not ride across a planted field, even it was public land and the farmer couldn't stop me.


I cannot comprehend willfully riding through someone's crop when I could access the same area via dirt roads.

:yes:

katyb
May. 22, 2012, 10:53 PM
I have yet to meet a farmer in east TN who hesitates to express their opinions. Not one, and I know dozens.

The dirt road does not access the same areas as the fields, obviously.

The people utilizing this PUBLIC property have no problems peacefully coexisting. We on horseback get along fine with the hunters, who seem to do just fine with the bikers. The hikers are friendly and pleasant, and I've yet to come across someone farming who was anything but welcoming to those of us on horseback. While the arrangement may seem unusual/odd/wrong to those of you who don't live here, it's working fine. It's obvious that if the arrangment did not work out in the farmers' best interest, they would not continue with it.

There is no prolonged off season for this area; winter crops appear to be as plentiful as spring/summer ones. It appears to be a year round operation.

Huntertwo
May. 22, 2012, 11:54 PM
Me, three. And "stay off the grass". Amazes me to see foot-trails through lawns and landscaping when there's a walkway/sidewalk right there.

What amazes me is that the OP has said a dozen times that IS PUBLIC LAND and usable to equestrians.

Yet a few can't seem to grasp the concept, or are intent on starting the same #rap as usual...:no:

Alagirl
May. 23, 2012, 12:36 AM
What amazes me is that the OP has said a dozen times that IS PUBLIC LAND and usable to equestrians.

Yet a few can't seem to grasp the concept, or are intent on starting the same #rap as usual...:no:


The way you mapped your trail through the fields, you had plenty of opportunity to ride along the edge.

yeah, it is public land. We get it.
But you are making tracks through a family's wallet. Planting the field is not free, it costs them $$$.

Just because they smiled at you does not mean they are not telling stories about you at the dinner table.

Enough people making their way through the oats and there won't be anything left to harvest.
How long do you think the operation will continue when that level is reached?

And please, keep in mind, regardless of who is actually doing the damage, horses are usually the first who get banned from trails.

CatOnLap
May. 23, 2012, 01:39 AM
Firstly, I must be old, but it astounds me that the majority of today's equestrians do not recognize "cow oats" or forage oats anymore. Not a great crop, and often cut green for cows, but easy to grow and resistant to most disease, hence, not requiring much in the way of care, water or pesticides.

Secondly,when did so many of us become so entitled that we ignore the common courtesy and centuries old customs: YOU SIMPLY NEVER RIDE THROUGH A STANDING CROP!!! You wait until after harvest, or you ride at the extreme edge of the field, in single file. Riding through any crop, even on "public" land, is tantamount to wearing your muckboots on someone's white pile carpet:don't expect an invite back.

I was so sorry when they stopped farming the fields in our nearby "nature preserve". Within a few years, the place has become impassable at any time due to overgrowth of wild rose, blackberry and other noxious weeds since the farmers are no longer cultivating it. We used to be able to have lovely gallops after the harvest, but too many folks took to galloping through the standing crops and ruined the farmer's livelihood. The growing season is only 3 months long here, but people felt entitled to ride year round and ruined it for everyone.

rustbreeches
May. 23, 2012, 08:39 AM
I was so sorry when they stopped farming the fields in our nearby "nature preserve". Within a few years, the place has become impassable at any time due to overgrowth of wild rose, blackberry and other noxious weeds since the farmers are no longer cultivating it. We used to be able to have lovely gallops after the harvest, but too many folks took to galloping through the standing crops and ruined the farmer's livelihood. The growing season is only 3 months long here, but people felt entitled to ride year round and ruined it for everyone.

Very good reminder. If it is not profitable enough for the farmer to waste his time and fuel to keep the fields open, do people really think the TVA will care if blackberry and scrub cedar make the fields completely impassable to anybody except rabbits?

One horse may not do a ton of damage, but multiply that by all the horses trailering in, and having a "buffet".

Aggie4Bar
May. 23, 2012, 10:40 AM
What amazes me is that the OP has said a dozen times that IS PUBLIC LAND and usable to equestrians.

Yes, it has been grasped that it's PUBLIC LAND. But there is a matter of common courtesy. The farmer is paying to plant a crop there, and common courtesy says you don't ride through a standing crop. If and when that is unavoidable, all care should be taken to make as small an impact as possible.

Huntertwo
May. 23, 2012, 12:35 PM
Yes, it has been grasped that it's PUBLIC LAND. But there is a matter of common courtesy. The farmer is paying to plant a crop there, and common courtesy says you don't ride through a standing crop. If and when that is unavoidable, all care should be taken to make as small an impact as possible.

Okay, a bit of a different scenario. Say perhaps that the public land was used by equestrians, hikers, bicyclist, long before a farmer ever planted crops.

Do the others have to change their path due to planted crops that came later? Just a curious question..that's all.

It's just sad that the OP came here for a simple question to a particular poster and then gets jumped on for something totally irrelevant to her question....

Huntertwo
May. 23, 2012, 12:36 PM
Yes, it has been grasped that it's PUBLIC LAND. But there is a matter of common courtesy. The farmer is paying to plant a crop there, and common courtesy says you don't ride through a standing crop. If and when that is unavoidable, all care should be taken to make as small an impact as possible.

Okay, a bit of a different scenario. Say perhaps that the public land was used by equestrians, hikers, bicyclist, long before a farmer ever planted crops.

Do the others have to change their path due to planted crops that came later? Just a curious question..that's all.

It's just sad that the OP came here for a simple question to a particular poster and then gets jumped on for something totally irrelevant to her question....

Huntertwo
May. 23, 2012, 12:40 PM
The way you mapped your trail through the fields, you had plenty of opportunity to ride along the edge.

yeah, it is public land. We get it.
But you are making tracks through a family's wallet. Planting the field is not free, it costs them $$$.

Just because they smiled at you does not mean they are not telling stories about you at the dinner table.

Enough people making their way through the oats and there won't be anything left to harvest.
How long do you think the operation will continue when that level is reached?

And please, keep in mind, regardless of who is actually doing the damage, horses are usually the first who get banned from trails.

Ummm, I wasn't the one who started the post...:confused:

Alagirl
May. 23, 2012, 01:07 PM
Ummm, I wasn't the one who started the post...:confused:

I apologize. :o

I realized later that I had quoted you and gone into the 'you need to watch where you ride'[ thing but I was on the run, no time to edit.

:o

Alagirl
May. 23, 2012, 01:10 PM
Okay, a bit of a different scenario. Say perhaps that the public land was used by equestrians, hikers, bicyclist, long before a farmer ever planted crops.

Do the others have to change their path due to planted crops that came later? Just a curious question..that's all.

It's just sad that the OP came here for a simple question to a particular poster and then gets jumped on for something totally irrelevant to her question....

well, as stated above, one can leave a trail through the crops if a pattern exists.

However, usage of land changes. Where we used to ride, houses went up, and streets.
'It's public land' certainly does not prevent the change of use or restrictions of it. I mean, Military bases are certainly publicly owned...and a lot would be prime riding areas....

katyb
May. 23, 2012, 01:41 PM
The way you mapped your trail through the fields, you had plenty of opportunity to ride along the edge.

yeah, it is public land. We get it.
But you are making tracks through a family's wallet. Planting the field is not free, it costs them $$$.

Just because they smiled at you does not mean they are not telling stories about you at the dinner table.

Enough people making their way through the oats and there won't be anything left to harvest.
How long do you think the operation will continue when that level is reached?

And please, keep in mind, regardless of who is actually doing the damage, horses are usually the first who get banned from trails.

The fields we rode through the middle of were not planted. One had been recently baled, and one had been killed off, as I mentioned previously. We rode the wheat in tractor tire marks, again, as I have mentioned previously. I assume they had gone through spraying, leaving huge "trampled" areas through the crops that we could certainly not further damage. The flattened wheat picture I took was on the edge of a field, where the trail dumps out, and I asked my friend to ride over to it so that I could take a photo with them to give perspective on the size of that area.

I haven't yet met an east TN farmer who smiles to your face and talks behind your back. They are an honest, outspoken bunch as a whole..most of whom would give you the shirt off their back, but would bless you out for wearing it wrong in the next breath. Wave and smile, then talk you down to the next guy just isn't a local style.

katyb
May. 23, 2012, 01:42 PM
Very good reminder. If it is not profitable enough for the farmer to waste his time and fuel to keep the fields open, do people really think the TVA will care if blackberry and scrub cedar make the fields completely impassable to anybody except rabbits?

One horse may not do a ton of damage, but multiply that by all the horses trailering in, and having a "buffet".

Much of the area is just as you describe. It's not a problem. Trails are maintained if there is enough interest to keep them open and usable. If not, no loss.

katyb
May. 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
Okay, a bit of a different scenario. Say perhaps that the public land was used by equestrians, hikers, bicyclist, long before a farmer ever planted crops.

Do the others have to change their path due to planted crops that came later? Just a curious question..that's all.

It's just sad that the OP came here for a simple question to a particular poster and then gets jumped on for something totally irrelevant to her question....

Actually, it was. These same fields were previously leased to farmers with cattle, and the only rule was to shut the gates when you passed through. That's been in the last seven years, since I started riding there at about that time. The crops, at least in this quantity, have been around for the last several years, but not much more than that. I haven't heard any riders complain about the changes, other than some grumbles that the farmers took down but did not remove the barbed wire in some areas, which is dangerous for all recreational users. (Edited to add - this is why the trail will leave the tree line in odd spots. Obviously, nobody - on bike, foot, or horse - is trecking through downed, tangled barbed wire intentionally.) Some trails shifted to accomodate the change, but it wasn't a big issue for anyone, as far as I could tell.

I wonder if we are just more accomodating around here. I don't mind my neighbor's grandson riding his atv/dirtbike through my yard. I mow a walking trail around the 30 acres I lease, and all of my neighbors have access to it, even though it benefits me in no way at all. I enjoy seeing their smiles and appreciation of the extra space. I don't think any appreciable damage is being done, in either case. Again, I've ridden these TVA fields regularly for the last 6-7 years, and the only damage I have seen caused by recreational users is the occasional litter, generally during deer season.

Ghazzu
May. 23, 2012, 03:07 PM
Okay, a bit of a different scenario. Say perhaps that the public land was used by equestrians, hikers, bicyclist, long before a farmer ever planted crops.

Do the others have to change their path due to planted crops that came later? Just a curious question..that's all.



I'd hazard a guess that the land was under cultivation before the bicycle was even invented...