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Calvaro V
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:40 AM
Anybody have any opinions on this? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from trainers who sell the slightly higher jumpers/hunters. Has the market been quiet or similar to previous years?

Calvaro V
Jan. 14, 2003, 09:40 AM
Anybody have any opinions on this? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from trainers who sell the slightly higher jumpers/hunters. Has the market been quiet or similar to previous years?

lotsospots
Jan. 14, 2003, 10:35 AM
The market is very poor for any type/level of horse at the moment. I have heard the "hot spot" is Florida, but everywhere else is pretty dead. I have heard this from many agents as well.

________________________
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Liverpool
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:14 AM
Eurohorse, on the buyer's side I can tell you that we are being offered horses that were originally much more expensive, at what I would consider bargain prices compared to a year ago.
(The deals have ranged from 30-40% reductions in asking prices for mid-five figure horses.)

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

MIKES MCS
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:14 AM
I'd have to agree, having just sold my horse last month, and having to discount him considerably to sell him, I found the market to be extremely slow. I would get phone calls inquring if I'd take less for him with out the person ever even seeing him except for a picture. It seems horses are selling under 10,000 and to get anything over that you have to be very connected with the right barn. Even then I understand people are having to sit on horses for over a year before selling and then prospective buyers want to take them out and try thm for months. We sold a push button fabulous pony but only after the people "tried her" for 3 months. I'd have to say 3 years ago she would have sold for 3 times as much and the sale would have been completed in a heatbeat. However not every one goes t FLa and alot of people are just starting to really get serious about buying.

luckyduck
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:21 AM
STRANGE market.....

Under $10K and over $45K nothing in the middle

Calvaro V
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:49 AM
That's interesting. I've noticed that a few very nice horses in our barn who are for sale are not moving fast either. It certainly seems to be a buyer's market.

HollBear
Jan. 14, 2003, 11:52 AM
For being a buyers market I have noticed that sellers are not moving on their prices even after a vet check demands negotiation.
I don't know what kind of market it is. But, whomever said that the under 10k sell is correct and the very high end sell. It is the in between that don't seem to be moving.
That's tough for me, being a shopper.

Show_hunters
Jan. 14, 2003, 01:14 PM
Right now nothing is moving. I have some very horses that are not selling. I know of other trainers who have just taken their horse off the market or who've leased them out. Leasing seems to be the way to go right now.

MIKES MCS
Jan. 14, 2003, 01:36 PM
I think some buyers and sellers need a reality check too. I mean honestly "5 year old gelding 16 hds, warmblood, green but lots of potential, free jumping 2'6", $ 45,000" Sad thing is 3 years ago they were buying them up left and right, and they were called bargins at that price. Now people have these guys 3 years later and guess what they can't sell them, at least not for what they paid for them unless they turned into a childrens / adult packer with a 1000 + trot that could win the classic in Wellington in the pouring rain at 3:00am and stay dry doing it. So getting to the point, If you have a green horse now with loads of potential and it's packing them around at 3ft , it has to be 17hds have 4 white perfect stockings be able to read a course and know the strides by itself and speak french, then maybe you might get $40,000.00, take any of the above elements away and the price drops to $7,500.00 and unless you know so and so, trainers aren't even going to come look cause they can't make any money at that price. The horse market like every other market is very tuff. On the bright side however thier are alot of bargins (real ones) out there and this sport may just be able to becme afordable to the middle class. You know the ones who pay there bills, raise children with work ethics, and understand that life doen't always present you wth the blue ribbons. G

Calvaro V
Jan. 14, 2003, 01:44 PM
well said Mike MCS!!

dcm
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:03 PM
Yes, well said, Mike MCS.

I am on both ends right now, both selling and buying, in that $10k - $45k market. I have managed to sell our tb (who is not an easy ride), but on the buyer's terms, literally. They get 6 months to pay me less than my asking price. BUT, it is a wonderful home and I feel lucky to have found them (through 2 trainers, no doubt). Plus, I have managed to find my dtr another horse, more suitable to her riding style, who can jump a 3'6" course quietly, and at a heck of a bargain. Basically, I am lucky to be $0 cash flow on the deals, after our horse is paid off by the buyers.

In looking for a horse, I really only saw a couple of good deals, though. Many sellers would not come down on prices after questionable vet exams. Unlike myself, I guess they felt they could hold on for a better price.

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Smiles
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:10 PM
Well I have one priced in the 10k range which will be on the increase, and guess what no takers. She went to her first A show and did the a/a and was a doll. Nobody seems to want anything right now.Maybe in the summer things will pick up.

Just another day!!!

JustJump
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:25 PM
<<this sport may just be able to becme afordable to the middle class.>>

Well...the horses might be more affordable, but the sport needs some work if that will ever be true! ie, someone will have to devise a way that kids can compete WITHOUT finding it necessary to spend in excess of $200 per show (shipping, entries, coaching). The "middle class" is sort of scraping by right now trying to pay off all those new houses they bought with the expectation that there would be 2 incomes to draw on to pay off the mortgage, only to realize that this is no longer the case or soon might not be.

free
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:26 PM
Well, if any of these 'marked down' horses will make an Advanced Event horse, email us. Unfortunately we live in Florida where I guess the prices have stayed high.

Dancetil3
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:34 PM
I have a nice hunter/jumper mare for sale in Michigan for "only" $7500 who's been on the market since August. I've only had ONE person come and look at her and that was just last night! Definitely a buyer's market!

Tackpud
Jan. 14, 2003, 02:49 PM
Reality is finally hitting the show world! We have priced ourselves off the planet and now that the economy is down, everyone is coming back to earth.

Low priced (under $10K) horses are selling to a certain extent, and high end (Over $150K) continue to go, but in between there is no market without a lot of negotiation. A lot of this comes from the commissions that trainers have added to the price tags over the last decade - now the horses can't live up to those prices and the owner's are stuck with the "real" price of the horse facing them.

ChampionMercedes
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:07 PM
I'm also having a heck of a time finding a horse. Unfortunately my price range is lower, but everytime I get on a horse to try the owner goes "well we've bumped the price up." and then they won't budge. I understand that selling horses is hard as well, but sometimes both buyer and seller need to negotiate with each other a little.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
I have managed to find my dtr another horse, more suitable to her riding style, who can jump a 3'6" course quietly, and at a heck of a bargain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you find a horse in MI for your dtr? Will she be showing in the MHJA shows this summer? Details hehehe ... scopin out competition http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

War Admiral
Jan. 14, 2003, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the horses can't live up to those prices and the owner's are stuck with the "real" price of the horse facing them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely, Tackpud.

______________
"It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."

dcm
Jan. 14, 2003, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChampionMercedes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
I have managed to find my dtr another horse, more suitable to her riding style, who can jump a 3'6" course quietly, and at a heck of a bargain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you find a horse in MI for your dtr? Will she be showing in the MHJA shows this summer? Details hehehe ... scopin out competition http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did not find him in MI. Looked in Michigan and in Canada (driving distance from MI only), and either the horses were way over our range or had vetting issues. And yes, for the most part, our trainer only looks at horses from other trainers whom she has connections with. I did not really understand that at first. So anyway, a trainer friend of our trainer was in Denmark looking at a horse to buy and saw this one. She did not have a buyer in her barn, called our trainer, and now we are just waiting for the plane to load him up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He will be in MHJA this summer in First Years and probably Childrens. If they do well enough, the trainer will let them move up to jr hunters. He's very cute, but I don't have pics, yet. He's a black Danish WB, one white sock and a wispy star, 17hh, and 8 years old. Can't wait until he gets here.

Hopefully, we will be at Stoney Ridge at the end of Feb. Will we see you at some shows this year?

I was waiting for pics before posting here about him, but this thread just up my alley.

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Hunter_Rider
Jan. 14, 2003, 05:35 PM
I agree it is very slow, I have a super push button short stirrup /children's pony hunter that we were offered $16,000 last year, this pony has cleaned up in PA, MD and VA A rated shows in short stirrup with a 10 year old. AUTO everything. We turned down the sale because we wanted to get one more year out of the pony (she is coming 8 this year) We have dropped the price to $12,500, thinking this will mover her quickly... and NO bites. I have sent out about 10 video's and nothing! Now the child has really outgrown her and we can not move her! She was Res. Ch in short stirrup at Devon Classic "B" show! (That is where we turned down the sale!)

boobada
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:23 PM
I'm in FL and it seems if you have between 10 and 40K to spend you are sure to get a steal! Anything less than 10K...good luck...sellers are charging too much for too little horse and I'm not talking about height...can't get beans for the little guys anymore.
Speaking of height... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifI don't get it???? You can't get a big piece of crap for less than 10K but you can't sell a little piece of perfection for over 10K! When will the big horse trend be over?

Rockin'
Jan. 14, 2003, 06:39 PM
Maybe you need to look to NZ to buy horses,the $US is worth twice as much as the $NZ.This mare sold for less than $5000US and winning over 4' courses.

Lord Helpus
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:01 PM
Hope you are the lucky buyer!

I am heading down to Fla with a WONDERFUL horse. A 9 mover , a 9 jumper, a 10 attitude and 10 looks.

I asked my trainer where we whuld price him and the trainer answered "$X because by the time commissions get added on, the price will be $X + 50% and that is where he deserves to be......"

A friend has a lovely horse for sale for $30k. She got a call from her agent asking if she would come down in price. The agent explained that the buyer "only had $50,000 to spend"... $20k in commisions on a $30k horse and they wanted the SELLER to take less money......

But if you try to play it straight (have the check go straight from the buyer to the seller) agents will just interest their customer in another horse, and you are blackballed as a seller.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr.......... It just makes my blood boil. We, as sellers, take the risk of finding these horses, the risk that they will turn out to be something decent and stay sound and we put a year+ into training/showing. And then agents get 50% - 66% of the asking price.......

BUYERS! YOU ARE THE ONES IN CONTROL!!! MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOUR AGENT THAT THE CHECK GOES DIRECTLY TO THE BUYER. ..... KNOW WHERE YOUR MONEY GOES!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm an organ donor. Are you?

SED
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:05 PM
I am confused. Is there a general rule on commissions of x% of the purchase price (which is what my daughter's trainer does, and we are getting ready to pay when we find the right horse), or is there a market out there where buyers pay their agents a set price, without knowing how much goes to the agent and how much goes to the seller. Why on earth would any buyer do that? I'm a lawyer, and even in the biggest multi-million dollar deals, everyone knows how much the seller gets and how much the agent gets. Why would anyone put up with anything different for horses? And yet from reading these posts it seems that this might be the case?...?... Please educate me as to what I am missing.

LaurieB
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:12 PM
Wow Rockin', what a beautiful mare!

Stephanie, unfortunately in horses the "rule" on commissions is that the agent or trainer usually takes as high a percentage as he or she can get away with. As Lord Helpus said, the only way that practise will come to an end is if buyers insist on writing a check directly to the sellers so that both sides know exactly what the actual sales price is.

dcm
Jan. 14, 2003, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
A friend has a lovely horse for sale for $30k. She got a call from her agent asking if she would come down in price. The agent explained that the buyer "only had $50,000 to spend"... $20k in commisions on a $30k horse and they wanted the SELLER to take less money......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! Lucky me, though, after I cut my price, the trainer cut her commission to me. I had told her that if the other trainer really wants her client to have him, maybe she could cut her commission, too. That way, we all win. I guess it worked. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Rockin'
Jan. 14, 2003, 08:38 PM
No we were not the buyers as we own the stallion so hopefully there is more where that "came from" LOL! There aren't alot of agents here so what you pay is between buyer and seller.The most I have seen agents here ask for is around 20%.Shipping is around $5000US and as we are considered a disease free country quarantine is minimal.

Smiles
Jan. 15, 2003, 07:20 AM
Rockin love those knees. What a nice mare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and you said she sold for only 5000us. To bad NZ isn't closer. Thats why I think not a lot of u.s buyers go there is because of the distance.

To what others have said about the agent/seller thing that is very true. If you want to sell someones horse than the check is made out to the seller not someone else. If they want their commision them they'll just have to go to the bank with you to get it!!!

Just another day!!!

MIKES MCS
Jan. 15, 2003, 10:41 AM
Taht's just it, so many people were of the mind " I just write the check" They honestly didn't care who the money went to or if the horse was actually worth it. It was just a number to thier accountant. Now we are seeing the reality. Agents belong in Hollywood not the horseshow world. That's what trainers are for, to find prospetive mounts forthier clients. If that means combing the internet or newspapers and making phone calls , well guess what, that's why you make a commision, and if you have to many people in your barn and are to busy doing oher things to be bothered with horse searches then your operation is big enough and you don't need anymore clients.I don't feel sorry for those who spent to much on a horse and now can't sell for 1/2 the price. Maybe now rumors of how much such and such paid for a horse will stop making it to the judges ears and thier won't be that subcontious "well this is a $500,000.00 Hunter, I guess I better really look at this round and start off with a 90 and go down" vs this is nobody we'll start from 70 and work our way up. To those selling if you can hold on abit longer think you may have a more active Market for Feb/Mar.If not sold by then like someone else said a lease maybe the way to go in order to ride the market out without adding more cost to the prospective sale horse.G

M. O'Connor
Jan. 15, 2003, 12:54 PM
&lt;&lt;Stephanie, unfortunately in horses the "rule" on commissions is that the agent or trainer usually takes as high a percentage as he or she can get away with. &gt;&gt;


&lt;&lt; Maybe now rumors of how much such and such paid for a horse will stop making it to the judges ears and thier won't be that subcontious "well this is a $500,000.00 Hunter, I guess I better really look at this round and start off with a 90 and go down" vs this is nobody we'll start from 70 and work our way up.&gt;&gt;

As a trainer/judge who does NOT subscribe to these practices, I'm sorry to say that I can't report that honesty seems to make much difference to the bottom line...

The irony is that now that I'm in grad school (to finish up my school teaching certification) there seems to be renewed interest on the part of prospective clients...

Go figure.

MCL

Jamie Taylor
Jan. 15, 2003, 09:31 PM
Equitation horses aren't selling great right now either....I've never owned/probably never will own a hunter so I have no idea...but we brought a really cute Equitation horse that my friend owned back east and no one even tried him. I was second in the Maclay finals on it, and not one person sat on him. In fact we brought him home, and hes pretty fancy for a CA horse and only one person tried him, and they were in our barn! (Kid was to small.....) now he's being leased to an amateur to do ammie medals at Indio until he hopefully sells!

cherham
Jan. 16, 2003, 04:04 AM
Ditto, ditto, ditto what Lord Helpus posted above.

If you don't seem to play the "commission" game with the trainers then pretty soon they tend to steer their clients elsewhere.

Furthermore trainers....here's a heads up....you do NOT own horse owners. If a prospective purchaser finds a horse on their own...through friends, internet, ad's etc and follows up on that horse, likes what they see and then brings their coach or trainer in to get their professional opinions (and I agree totally with this idea) then so be it but I don't want to receive a phone call the next day from said trainer telling me what their commission will be so the price of the horse should be ???? to cover their commission. Huh???? What commission?

I didn't hire you and I certainly don't appreciate what you are now going to tell your client (that my horse was not good enough, or whatever else you can think of to dissuade them from purchasing from me) so you can direct them to someone else who WILL play your silly little game of taking advantage of those that trust your knowledge.

The internet has opened up the whole world to the horse buying public. Great news!!!! I am so glad to see that finally this closed shop of inside negotiations is starting to stop.

Keep up the communications people. This is helping everyone out.....

luckyduck
Jan. 16, 2003, 04:12 AM
Yes, the internet has opened up a whole new world to buyers, and shame on the trainers that have caused such dis-belief in their clients.

We help if asked, never charge our clients a "commsission" on a horse they find...heck...both sides of the fence would be nice, but not needed...they take lessons, pay board and participate in our program...I guess that isn't enough any more?

I do charge a commsission if I am hired by an outside person to find a horse. My time, I deserve to be paid.

I do not slap my cleints on the hand for trying to buy on their own...most of the time they look and then bring back what they find for our opinion...and since we don't care about the money, we happily evaluate the horse for them.

HOWEVER...buying a horse OR pony that we recommended against, and then throwing it in our laps to "fix"...no way...

There was a reason we didn't want it, and just because now it is trying to EAT PEOPLE is not my issue.

I will also add that when looking for a horse for our clients I stick to or well below thier budget. I don't "tease" with nicer horses...we just keep looking. Most of the time they come to their own conclusion about the reality of their price range and what it will take to buy the animal they want.

What I don't agree with is a parent that wants "somthing green" because it will be cheaper, and a child that needs mileage on a schooled horse. They are are their own with that too.

I will buy a green mount for a child I know has certain golas and is a capable rider...most are not. Heck...most adults don't need a green horse, but people don't hesitate to sell one to a buyer they know has no business even looking at it.

Again, this falls into the sellers lap. As the seller, he/she should be wise enough to know...sell the right horse to the right person...people come back. IMO, it's not worth the sale if it's not the right thing to do.

In my own barn, my husband and I sometimes walk on oppsite sides of the fence. He the trainer, I the seller...I have felt a horse would work and he has said "No".... cleints are a bit taken-a-back by it at first, but we...as a team, have learned it is the clients needs FIRST.

[This message was edited by luckyduck on Jan. 16, 2003 at 07:20 AM.]

Hunter_Rider
Jan. 16, 2003, 05:56 AM
I have a horror story! One of my friends wanted to sell their ARAB pony for $4500, there was no market in the hunter ring for that pony. Well they sent it off to a trainer who just sells horses, After commissions were paid they got their $4500, HOWEVER the pony sold for $50,000 marketed as 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Arab, the original ARAB papers were destroyed, and when they showed the pony to clients they put alcohol under the tail to keep the tail down. 4 trainers got commissions and the original owners got their check for $4500. I know this for a fact because one of the trainer's involved came up to me at a show and asked why I did not tell him about this pony, that he made $10,000 by just passing it along through another trainer who also made $10,000 in commissions. He told me if I had told him first we could have all made a lot of money! I was disgusted. To this day I don't think the original owners ever found out about the scam. BUYERS BEWARE!

Moonriver
Jan. 16, 2003, 06:31 AM
Well, the stock market hasn't rebounded yet & that affects disposable income. I know that this is true in my case - i would like to look for another horse but its not practical at this time. I also agree that some want high price for prospects. There is a barn in our area that sells most for 10K & under & they seem to sell quickly.

Calvaro V
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:15 AM
so luckyduck - let me understand you properly, if one of your clients found a horse on their own and asked for your opinion on it, would you charge a comission to your client on that horse (if they bought it and brought it into the barn)?

How do buyers cut out all of the people wanting their slice of the pie?

In my opinion, unless somebody helps me to buy a horse or finds it for me, I do not see why I should pay a commission.

Blinky
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:18 AM
On that note. If I ask for my trainer's opinin on said horse (one I found myself) I wouldn't mind paying a fee but not a 10% commission.

luckyduck
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:28 AM
Eurohorse- NO WAY! They are still paying clients! Why would I take a cut in the short term, AND on the long term.

YIKS! Maybe I am stupid, but I can't stand it when people walk both sides of the fence. Oh! I want to make money on a horse, but not at the cost of abusing a client and taking advantage.

FURTHER- how do buyers cut all the CRAP out. EDUCATION! PEOPLE! EDUCATION!

I have all kinds of clients...those who don't want to have anything to do with the search, those who don't want me having anything to do with the search, and then the middle of the road client.

I have certain contacts we use to SEARCH for horses...I personally stay out of the interent thing because I do go out on limbs and buy off of videos...crazy...maybe...but not when you have an established relationship with a "dealer" or other trainer. 10 years...never regreted it!

I spend so much time getting to know the potential rider...watching them work with different animals, talking with them, going to shows and seeing what makes there eyes go wide, what direction they want to head...so on and so on...

Match making...my favorite thing to do... I like happy stories and I like to be able to answer my phone without looking at caller ID because I pissed someone off!

Oh I can't make everyone happy...but I will sure break my back trying. I like repeate business, and I like when I have a cleint that trusts me enough to by a horse site un-seen...and they fall in love with it!

[This message was edited by luckyduck on Jan. 16, 2003 at 10:47 AM.]

Calvaro V
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:31 AM
Luckyduck - you sound like you run a very fair operation. That is very refreshing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Smiles
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:36 AM
LuckyDuck dito to what Euro said. Wish there were more trainers out their that had your same sediment! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just another day!!!

HelenD
Jan. 16, 2003, 07:46 AM
Many trust fund funded individuals saw their total worth go down about 1/3 in 2002. Even investments once considered "very safe" lost money in 2002. Those losses can really HURT even the richest of the rich. Imagine loosing 1/3 (about the average) of your total worth in a year (in some cases, a month). That means even if you are "living off the interest and not the principal", you probably didn't get much if any interest because most everything lost money last year.

Even people with incredible amounts of disposable income have much less because they don't keep it ready sitting in the bank for long periods - its mostly invested. Heck, most normal upper middle/middle class folks probably saw their retirement accounts loose about 1/3 of its value if not more. Some folks lost their entire retirement (or just about). And we're talking about folks earning over 100,000 that make the bulk of those losses.

So, more then any other economic downturn, recent economic scandals and problems have hit those with investments (like most of our horsey owners/buyers) extremely hard.

Having said all that, it appears that made foxhunters are still being priced the same and perhaps going in the 10-25K range quite well in Va.

Helen

(S)He doth nothing but talk of his horses.
~William Shakespeare

D.O.T.
Jan. 16, 2003, 08:50 AM
I agree that the market in the $30-100,000 has been bad, for at least a year now. sold my large junior (good ribbons at HITS all last year) for about half of what everyone said he was worth. Two questions I hope some can help with: First, I'm looking to lease from about March-April on, and have my trainer looking in Florida and setting up some rides when I head down durng Sping Break. What is the usual commission on a lease arrangement? In a sense the trainer has done the same amount of work as if it were a purchase. Would 10% commission be based on th lease price? Second do folks think it would be better to wait for the circuits to head north and then lease as folks who were looking to sell might be more willing to arrange decent leases for the rest of the year? Thanks for all advice

NancyL
Jan. 16, 2003, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That means even if you are "living off the interest and not the principal", you probably didn't get much if any interest because most everything lost money last year.

(S)He doth nothing but talk of his horses.
~William Shakespeare <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, bonds (which provide interest income) did quite well last year - on a price basis.

If you already owned them, you did pretty well. If you owned bonds with a fixed coupon you receive the income on a continuing basis until the bond matures -- irrelevant of market moves (assuming the bonds did not default).

If you were buying, you probably got lower yields than you expected, meaning you had to pay more money for them than you expected, but once you owned them you started to receive the stated interest rate.

Bond yields and bond prices move in opposite directions. So as yields go down, dollar prices go up and as yields go up, dollar prices go down. Think teeter-totter.

Sorry to go "off course" but I thought I would add another view to that statement.

Blinky
Jan. 16, 2003, 11:34 AM
If you ask me the price of horses like everything else the past several years has been inflated. It's about time they start taking a realistic turn. I'm not talking about the 100,000+ but those horses that were being sold for 20-40K.

lonewolf
Jan. 16, 2003, 11:48 AM
I'm glad everyone here is opposing the crazy comissions which some agents/trainers take. I have no problem with the standard 10%. I know some big time dealers take more. I wouldn't pay it, but some do. But I can't stand people who inflate the price of a horse to the max. I guess that is business but I don't see how it helps the sport.

I wish more trainers were like mine (and like luckyduck). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif But I guess that won't happen, since as long as there are people willing to pay that kind of money, there will be people looking to take it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing."
--Robert Benchley

PlusTax
Jan. 16, 2003, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamie Taylor:
Equitation horses aren't selling great right now either....I've never owned/probably never will own a hunter so I have no idea...but we brought a really cute Equitation horse that my friend owned back east and no one even tried him. I was second in the Maclay finals on it, and not one person sat on him. In fact we brought him home, and hes pretty fancy for a CA horse and only one person tried him, and they were in our barn! (Kid was to small.....) now he's being leased to an amateur to do ammie medals at Indio until he hopefully sells!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm having the same promblem with my hunter too! She was 2nd in the nation in the older large juniors in '01 and she's really nice/easy (young too!) but only a couple of people have tried her and none of them have been seriously inerested!! We've been telling people that she's for sale since last summer and there was an ad in the chronicle and everything but still only a few people have tried her http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif She's in Ocala right now so hopefully we'll have better luck there...

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi

rhymeswithfizz
Jan. 16, 2003, 01:19 PM
We have a mare that we just put up for sale, and while she's definitely on the lower end of the price scale (she's very green but gorgeous), now I'm a little nervous that we will have trouble selling her!

Any tips you folks can offer?

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

mwalshe
Jan. 16, 2003, 01:27 PM
NO good tips but I really like her )and I don't say that too often http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

What's her breeding?

I would recommend selling her ASAP, odds are you will get under $5K so try not to eat that up in expenses...

rhymeswithfizz
Jan. 16, 2003, 01:48 PM
Thanks maggymay! She's all TB, sire was "Smarten", and her dam was an Irish TB. She was raced as a youngster and was bought as a broodmare (she is actually the momma of my 2 year old that I bought first), and since all of her babies were super slow, she needed to find a new job.

She's older (12) and green at the same time, so we might have a bit of a harder time than we expected... oh well, gives me something to do! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

HollBear
Jan. 16, 2003, 02:58 PM
I have a question. What if you ended up buying a sale horse from your own trainer that has been in the barn for a few weeks. He didn't come in for me, in fact, I wasn't even looking when he came in. We just ended up clicking too well. Would you still pay 10%?

~SC~
Jan. 16, 2003, 03:30 PM
I keep trying to tell my mom that the market is down right now, but she is determined to sell my hunter herself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif My personal opinion is that she's going to have a hard time attracting buyers who are willing to spend big $$ b/c they will all be in FL, so we might end up sending Capri down there. Of course, I don't really mind if we keep her- I just wish I could bring her to school with me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Sarah~


~Disgruntled College Students Clique~Georgia Clique~Junior Clique (Can I please still be a member?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )~ Buckle Bunnies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

adhunter
Jan. 17, 2003, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhymeswithfizz:
We have a mare that we just put up for sale, and while she's definitely on the lower end of the price scale (she's very green but gorgeous), now I'm a little nervous that we will have trouble selling her!

Any tips you folks can offer?

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Classified Advertising/Photo Ads drew little attention for me. I just tried direct mail to area barns. I printed a color flyer with photos, a brief show record history and contact information. It has generated more interest than the 4 ads I ran.

Lord Helpus
Jan. 17, 2003, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHW:
I have a question. What if you ended up buying a sale horse from your own trainer that has been in the barn for a few weeks. He didn't come in for me, in fact, I wasn't even looking when he came in. We just ended up clicking too well. Would you still pay 10%?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. The trainer will expect to get his/her commission from WHOEVER bought the horse, whether it was the person for whom the horse was originally found or you. A sale is a sale. And be thankful it is ONLY 10%...

J. Turner
Jan. 17, 2003, 09:54 AM
My dad is by no means rich. He makes 100K, but commutes to NYC from Ridgefield. His taxes and expenses in one the highest cost of living areas in the country don't make it look like that much. He lost much of his retirement in the stock market. He used to work for (and my grandfather before him) for Time Inc and had much of his retirement invested in that. He sold off what he had left, but now he's getting divorced and everything's 50-50 so he definitely down in the dumps at 56. No more asking dad for a hand in buying anything! Horse, car, tv, vcr, maybe dinner. (Not that I necessarily got those things anytime I ask.)

JustJump
Jan. 17, 2003, 10:36 AM
Yeah, maybe we're all in for a reality check...Where I am, the price of board typically is up above 1000K per month...I can't see many new customers willing to plunk down $12K per year as a base expenditure (add ons being shoes, vet, lessons, shows, misc etcs.) on lesiure activity if they don't already participate in it...this could make for a very lean few years. Moonlighting, anyone?

ProzacPuppy
Jan. 17, 2003, 01:01 PM
JustJump- Where are you located? I'm just curious where board is averaging $1000 a month. And to think I was bitching about $500 a month.

M. O'Connor
Jan. 17, 2003, 04:34 PM
1K is NOTHING around here!!

I'm thinking I might be able to get a few more boarders if people feel the need to economize even slightly! But in the Hamptons, who wants to be thought to be doing THAT?

MCL

boobada
Jan. 17, 2003, 05:44 PM
Where are all those people paying over 1K a month in board!?!? Do they want to sponsor my po' broke college-student arss?

It would be so nice...they could buy me the most beautiful Reg. Conf. Hunter... bring their friends and a bottle of Dom to the shows and watch us win! It would be just peachy! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Drummerboy
Jan. 18, 2003, 05:28 PM
Heres a thought along the same venue...with the sales market down, how did you feel show attendance was this past year&gt; (at the A's) UP here we noticed it was increased quite a bit from the year before. With what is potentially going to happen with various countries and President Bush making some decisions how do you see this affecting showing, which has a ripple affect with sales?

ponyjumper102
Jan. 18, 2003, 06:01 PM
I've had a really hard time finding a jumper! There's very few for sale in this area. All I've been able to find is cheaper ones that are basket cases, or ones that are way over priced. But the hardest part is even finding jumpers that sound any good!

"It takes one to ride, but two to win."

"There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"

cherham
Jan. 19, 2003, 07:12 AM
Ponyjumper102....

There are lots of very well bred, registered CSH's here in Southern Ontario (Canada that is not California http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif with exceptional bloodlines for jumping.

Drop me an e-mail....I am sure I can find you something around here that is not a "basket-case or overpriced". And with your American dollar being twice the price of Canadian currency you get a great deal....plus you will be buying directly from the breeder (no middle man/woman involved to increase the price).

cschatz@elitesporthorse.com http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CrossedWings
Jan. 19, 2003, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
My dad is by no means rich. He makes 100K, but commutes to NYC from Ridgefield. His taxes and expenses in one the highest cost of living areas in the country don't make it look like that much. He lost much of his retirement in the stock market. He used to work for (and my grandfather before him) for Time Inc and had much of his retirement invested in that. He sold off what he had left, but now he's getting divorced and everything's 50-50 so he definitely down in the dumps at 56. No more asking dad for a hand in buying anything! Horse, car, tv, vcr, maybe dinner. (Not that I necessarily got those things anytime I ask.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow I guess I'm already "lower than down in the dumps!" My parents, combined, (1 full time, and 1 part time working) make about $56k CDN/year. (Which equates to basically nothing in USD). Of course nearly 40% of that income goes directly to our flipping federal government in taxes (before you try buying anything). I'm going to say this... The United States is looking better and better every day! I think it's safe to say once I'm on my own I'll be trying to attain American citizenship and build my life there (where you can)! I'm sick of Canada and it's flipping government (And they're laughing about raising taxes to cover debt, while the economy is falling into an alltime low!) What about us? Thank god for my working student position! I doubt I'd even be riding if I didn't have it.


Now back on topic. Sales. I will say what I have always thought. The *REALLY* good horses will always maintain their high prices and continue to be sold successfully, however the lower end of the horses (not as nice or as well trained) will drop in value and be difficult to sell UNLESS they are priced accordingly. The reason? They were never worth the big $$ they were priced at originally, and when the market hit the ground, it brought them (price-wise) back to earth. That is what I have seen in the past year. My stable has been fairly successful with 9 recent sales with horses all in the $7 - $40k range. That being said I would suggest that they were priced fairly for what they were, and that, I believe, is the reason they sold fairly quickly (not too mention the poor canadian dollar).

"The greatest compliment that was ever paid me was when one asked me what I thought, and attended to my answer. " - Henry David Thoreau

* * * "To wherever it may lead." - Orlando Bloom (Legolas)

Spotty Horses
Jan. 19, 2003, 01:59 PM
Rockin--show us where to find these NZ horses and we will look!

Lord helpus--lets see some photos of theses horses you are talking about that are for sale. Maybe we can make a deal here w/o all thoses added commissions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rockin'
Jan. 19, 2003, 05:17 PM
Mostly we hear about these horses by word of mouth.We have contacts with breeders/trainers as we are particularly looking for Heroicity progeny as we stand the stallion and are very impressed with the ability that they show.There are also magazines/newspapers published here that we check out.The young horses here are given alot of exposure to cross-country,SJ and dressage as there are so many low key events to take them to especially at the pony clubs and it is not expensive.If you are really interested you can e-mail us at heroicitystudnz.co.nz and we can discuss it further.

Finzean
Jan. 19, 2003, 08:09 PM
About a billion years ago, when I first started showing horses I was doing that Arab thing - halter horses - for a lady that leased part of our barn. I remember seeing an article in the Times (arab industry pub) that one Polish mare's unborn foal (think the mare was VP Kahlua not that it matters) sold at auction in Scottsdale for $1.3 million. All of the horses I showed were in the $25K +++ range. 5 years later you were lucky to get $1K for your prize broodmare that had points out the wahzoo, etc. I am reminded of this because of the market today - I know of so many horses like the ones mentioned by MIKE MCS. "It has the potential to be a great [fill in the blank]...yadayadayada..." - I've never had $50K to gamble and I think now that so many folks have seen their investments crash and burn, they aren't so quick to gamble with even a little cash. Let's face it, horses eat while we sleep; they are all money pits in that way. With a collector car you put it in the garage undercover and watch it appreciate without much attention. Today's $50K investment equine can walk out of the stall crippled, colic, etc. tomorrow. Not to mention the $12K annual expenditure just to feed it.

From where I sit - buying, selling and taking consigments - the safest market right now is the cheapie market - $5K and under. I'm turning around trustworthy local show type horses in that price range. 3 years ago, the $25K ++ horses were bread and butter. If I had to depend on them now to eat I'd be finally wearing that size 4!!

...For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Luke 6:38

Odie
Jan. 20, 2003, 07:34 AM
I have a really nice 5 yr old Dutch WB hunter and a super 6 yr old Dutch WB jumper for sale, and not alot of inquiries. I agree that the market has really slowed down, as I sold two horses in the month of Jan. last year, and I'm not even a trainer or a dealer, just an amateur who imports horses. I hadn't realized how much the US economy had slowed down (being in Canada), but I sure am feeling it, as all the horses I've sold so far have gone to the US.

Want to see what a university student does during "spare time"??
http://www.blackcreekhorses.com

Heather
Jan. 20, 2003, 08:06 AM
Hey Fizz--

I have a freind with a Smarten son who is eventing at prelim/intermediate. He is a freak of nature over jumps--you've never seen a horse that jumps like this one. He is a bit hot and opinionated, though.

Smarten stood in southern Maryland, so there are a lot of his babies 'round these parts, they all are phenomenal jumpers. (Un)fotunately, they also were pretty good runners, so there aren't a lot of them in sport hands. All the ones I've seen were amazing, amazing jumpers.

Claudius
Jan. 20, 2003, 08:51 AM
ENJOY YOUR HORSE! That's what I have decided to do with my "sale Horse". Got to WEF and saw many pros riding last years model "sale horse" and thought,"All those horses have to find homes before any pro is going to let his customer try my horse!" So I am going to pick my shows and enjoy until things evolve!!!

NancyL
Jan. 20, 2003, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponyjumper102:
I've had a really hard time finding a jumper! There's very few for sale in this area. All I've been able to find is cheaper ones that are basket cases, or ones that are way over priced. But the hardest part is even finding jumpers that sound any good!

"It takes one to ride, but two to win."

"There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a jumper for sale at my barn. Just on the market -- owners decided he didn't fit their program so they will sell him to buy a hunter for the wife. Email me if you are interested. He is not my horse, but I know the owners fairly well, he is for sale through our trainer.

maggieh
Jan. 20, 2003, 12:12 PM
[QUOTE] Originally posted by dcm: Many sellers would not come down on prices after questionable vet exams. Unlike myself, I guess they felt they could hold on for a better price.

Tell me about it! I just had a fantastic young horse vetted that I thought was reasonably priced, and her xrays were not perfect. The minute I hesitated (because I am looking for an A circuit investment project and soundness is very important!) the owners said that if I was hesitant that they were going to go ahead and show it to other people who were willing to pay more! Now if the horse was clean I would say she would be worth more, but even if she is sound now, the xrays don't lie, and any flaw that is there will only get worse as the horse has been on the circuit for awhile. I actually felt bad about it because the horse was so nice, but I just can't buy something that I have doubts about, and the vet couldn't give me a guarantee that it would not be a problem. So I am still looking for a nice hunter prospect (between $10,000 and $45,000 as you said!)

HollBear
Jan. 20, 2003, 12:21 PM
Maggieh - I totally agree. I just had a horse vetted in the 30-40k range and he's for me to have fun with. But there were issues on the xrays. No - he's not exactly an investment horse; however, after a few years of showing the vetting results will only get worse. Why is it so wrong for me to want to come out of this with a little bit of shirt left (it can be a sleeveless tank top!!!)
The owner is keeping me on hold to think about it. I am not really negotiating very low either.

maggieh
Jan. 20, 2003, 12:26 PM
The thing that stinks is that I know if I don't buy this horse that someone else will and I will see her winning at the shows...and I am sure she might be fine for a few years, but I am just worried about what happens if she does go lame or even if she is sound and then I go to resell and the xrays are worse. I guess some people may not care as long as the horse is functionally sound and doesn't need maintanence, but I know it would always be in the back of my mind that it could be a problem.

HollBear
Jan. 20, 2003, 12:30 PM
Go with what you think is right. And, this is an investment. Just like you are looking for a clean vetting so will the future purchasers.
I am going through the same thing.

If you are in love with this horse, what about a second opinion or another trainer opinion?

maggieh
Jan. 20, 2003, 12:43 PM
Their vet xrayed her, found a small osteophyte in her hock and thought it was no big deal. I had them send the xrays to my vet who said it was pretty minor but that as the horse was put into heavier work it might present a problem. (She has only been lightly worked so far with minimal jumping, but I was buying her because she has an amazing jump!) My vet sent the xrays to a vet school to get a surgeon's opinion and I will hear from them tomorrow. I think even with different opinions it is just one of those situations where no one can say for sure one way or the other. Now I am just mad that the owners are getting short with me about it! They are acting like I am being ridiculous to make an issue of it. I think even if I am though I would rather err on the side of caution!

rhymeswithfizz
Jan. 20, 2003, 01:16 PM
Heather --
Very, very interesting tidbit!! Is there anywhere you can point me to that might have one of her siblings' records? Email me if ya want. Might help in the mare's sale...

And that give me very high hopes for baby Gabe, as a Smarten grandson! (I'm keeping him, he is just adorable..)
Thanks!
Liz

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

Queenie
Jan. 20, 2003, 01:20 PM
I know of some that are taking their horses off of the market until things pick up again.....who knows when that will be.

HollBear
Jan. 20, 2003, 04:05 PM
Maggieh - Its me again. The horse I had vetted had the same exact thing. Now his story is different. He's 8 and in work as a 3'0+ hunter. My vet said it hasn't bothered him yet and may never, BUT!!! you never know.

Liverpool
Jan. 20, 2003, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggieh:
Their vet xrayed her, found a small osteophyte in her hock and thought it was no big deal. I had them send the xrays to my vet who said it was pretty minor but that as the horse was put into heavier work it might present a problem. (She has only been lightly worked so far with minimal jumping, but I was buying her because she has an amazing jump!) My vet sent the xrays to a vet school to get a surgeon's opinion and I will hear from them tomorrow. I think even with different opinions it is just one of those situations where no one can say for sure one way or the other. Now I am just mad that the owners are getting short with me about it! They are acting like I am being ridiculous to make an issue of it. I think even if I am though I would rather err on the side of caution!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't ask for advice, (!) but READ the other posts on this thread... and keep looking! There are so many nice horses for sale these days, and the market is really slow. And - take it from someone who has been looking recently - there is no reason to buy one that has vetting results you are uncomfortable with.

It is easy, especially after you have been looking for a while, to try one and say "this is it!" before it vets. Then if the vetting comes back with issues, it is difficult to walk away because you think "there aren't any more as nice as this one!" But there are, and if you keep looking, you will find one - one that is just as nice, and will vet.

Enough can happen to horses that start off without issues. Why stack the deck against yourself at the outset?

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

CTT
Jan. 20, 2003, 08:44 PM
I have skimmed some of this thread and find it to be an interesting thread but I would like to add my .2 cents to this. I am in no way a pro but I do spend a lot of time researching this very topic for overseas clients looking to market their selection more competitively.

I spend hours upon hours 7 days a week looking at horses of all countries for various disciplines. Selling these days is an art that comes with risk but there are so many things one can do to properly advertise their horse(s) to a larger volume of prospective buyers.
I hear so often that I have a horse for sale but it has sat there for 4 months, but I put up flyers and some text adds on the net…… Not good enough anymore.

As a researcher there are some adds I do not look at or waste my time reading:
1) No picture…
2) A picture of a horse in pasture grazing that has mud on it and looks pore.
3) A picture that is blurry.
4) Incomplete information.
5) No contact information or no email. (if you have one put it)
6) A horse that says price available on request
7) A horse that says serious buyer only.

I do make note of the ratio of these horses I see and how the market is leaning to let people I source to know how to get the buyers to be attracted to their horse(s). In this day in age proper pictures are so important. Not just pictures that you stand there and go snap but pictures that you pose the horse to look the part. Clarity, Sharpness, Good Angle, Proper Distance O/F, Movement on the flat with power, ect.. I think you get the idea.

As I said selling a horse is an art. I tell people it takes money to make money. There is no quick sale unless you know the buyers looking. If you post in the local tack shop an A3 hunter in a predominately western town the likelyness of it selling is slim. You half to use sources you can find to get your horse on what I call the “Open Market”.

The economy the way it is has hurt many buyers but at the same time it has made people spend wiser. If you look at the volume of imports of current times vrs. past years the traffic level has not died. It actualy has risen!!!! We are buying the same volume we use to but the difference is WE WISED UP WITH OUR FUNDS!

So we aren’t spending in excess anymore as buyers… Now it is the choice of the seller to jump on the band wagon of creativity. I tell people who are seeling their horse(s) invest in having a pro come out and take some pictures. I have a list I recommend that is so nit picky but, at the same time why make someone travel if the horse isn’t what they, the buyer, truly wants. I tell a seller to invest in having someone come out with a very nice digital to take video footage. Today, yes, buying a camera is pricey but sadly if you are seriously selling you want a semi pro level with good lenses and good color feed to use. Some cameras tend to gray out still images and if not properly set you can fuzz a picture on a video that could have been the one. Even a video itself can be the most horrible thing I wait for. You want to always use a tri pod or at least a mono pod when ever shooting a picture to eliminate all variables. You want to be good with your zoom hand to make sure you have a strong close view so the buyer can see all the nit pic details. If your doing a material collection yourself I recommend knowing 4 things, Why they make filters, what speed is and how to set it, what is aperture, and where to focus when taking the picture.

If your printing information invest in a nice printer. I get printed material that you can’t see the horse cause of the dpi they used. If you want to print well you buy the proper material or take it to a pro printing press that can make final adjustments for you.

If you’re a farm take pride in your website. I am a nitpick on site layout and appearance. This is where I say if you have a site you are selling your soul because a bad site will make me say no without even getting past the first page.

Use SALE SITES. I have a list of over 90 sites that I can market using them to get a larger buyers market.

When doing this DO NOT EMBELISH!
No words:
Wonderful- TOO BIAST (then have a pic of a horse standing in a field covered in dirt)
Terrific
Would make a wonderful jumper
A Quality and it be a back yard horse at 20.

Stay UN BIAST!!!
Here is a good example of a proper listing:

15.2hh Gray TBxWB, 9 years old mare out of Im Insane. Has been in training since May of 02’. Was a breeding mare for the past 6 years He has been in training to be a hunter but might be suited for a jumper or evener. Moves good and well mannered. Is currently jumping 2’6. Placed 4th in a b rated show in its home town of Insanity, FB. Asking 8,000 USD

Let the picture tell the rest of the story. THAT IS WHAT PICTURES ARE FOR.

If you can add a video to the site DO IT! Spend that extra money to do something like that. Let the buyers find out then what they like about the horse so they do not WASTE YOUR TIME!

Give them all the info they need to make sure they don’t enter oodles of letters to send you something they see not capable. But is from a still pic.

Entice your buyers. Make sure you have and use email and as a seller respond to each email even if they seem to be a waste of your time. I will send one liners out as a test to see what I get back. Sometimes I do but I get a rude response. Create an email for each horse that you can respond with to give them more in depth information such as more pictures, shots of the legs and conformation from the front and rear, Pictures of each phase of their walk, trot and canter. Make sure it is mailing friendly. Put all your contact info and a direct link to your site if you have one. I will send out so many emails that I loose count of what horse comes from what site. Send this email as a complementary source.

There are so many other sources if you are a avid seller to use but if I give out all my secrets then I don’t make money educating people. As a seller though be prepared to open your wallet. If you don’t see the need for such things then I wish you luck. If you do and are a buyer looking to get a project make sure you are willing to invest the extra money if not keep looking……

This is a tip of the ice burg but some very important things to know. As an FYI last email I sent out was 80 pages of sources that people can use. Think about that one.

For anyone looking at selling a horse, remember to get it marketed it takes money to do so. Also this allows you the seller to go direct to the buyer and leave out nasty commissions.

Liverpool
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:42 AM
CTT makes some excellent points. As a recent buyer, allow me to add a few additional suggestions.

1) Send a GOOD still photo (with the horse's name, your name, address and phone number written on the back) and a short note with any videos you send. This helps make the buyer excited as they have something to show to friends, SO etc (ie, people who don't want to sit through a video) and the little note says you are friendly and will be decent to work with.

2) Tailor the video to the audience. I can't tell you how many videos I got with ten minutes of someone chasing the poor sale horse around a (badly maintained) ring or paddock with a longe whip ... I am not sure what that was supposed to convey, but what I took away from it was "these people don't have the first clue about horses." If you are marketing a hunter or jumper, show a few conformation shots, maybe a trot to and away from the camera, and then show some undersaddle and jumping work. Leaving the video camera counter on shows me that while you may have had to shoot fifty takes to get the nice course you are showing to me, at least you didn't edit out the bad parts. Frequent cuts tell me - fairly or unfairly - that you are trying to hide the bad stuff with a poor editing job.

3) If the horse has shown, show me some video footage or at least still photos from that horseshow. One shot of you standing there with a ribbon is fine, but what I really care about is seeing how they are IN the ring.

4)Send the videos, etc promptly. I don't mind a call or email first so you can try to figure out if your horse is suitable for me, but I am not interested in having to convince you I am worthy of your time.

I can't tell you how many times I found an interesting horse on a nice website, sent an email stating my interest (or made a phone call,) invested my time in discussing that individual horse and what I was looking for, and then waiting for weeks for a promised video that never arrived. I am not going to beg you to send it to me. If you don't think I am worthy of your time, then say you don't feel you have anything suitable or in my price range or whatever... don't be rude. (I have a long memory.)

To be honest, I was amazed at how poor most of the presentations were of MOST of the horses I looked at. I could not believe that people who wanted me to spend an amount equal to the cost of a luxury sedan wouldn't invest in a decent set of photos or a video that did not give me nausea from the constant changes in focus and wobbling as they tried to follow the horse around the ring.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

HollBear
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:57 AM
I too think this topic is really interesting. Having bought now 2 horses this year. (yes, the deal I was talking about earlier is finalized). I was AMAZED at the turnout of sale horses. I must have looked at 30 horses this past summer. Youngsters just beginning a career. Most were not clipped/trimmed, mains long, etc. This is for a show hunter prospect. The one I actually purchased had feathers on his feet the likes of a Clydesdale. Luckily we were able to look through the appearance. The barn I am at now puts so much spit and polish into their sale horses - they look amazing. This is what I would want to see if I were looking.

HollBear
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:59 AM
One more thing I forgot, I can't tell you how many horses I have seen that need to be shod desperatly or their teeth were horrible. I think it is good to make sure the little maintenance things are done before you send a horse out. You don't want anything standing in the way of the horse being his best.

rhymeswithfizz
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:15 AM
CTT, I read your post about six times -- and am printing it out to read again! THANK YOU for taking the time to write that out! I am off to go do my homework....

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

Horsepower
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:46 AM
Can anyone give me advice on how to BUY a horse?
I am interested in selling my son's TBMare, which is easy to ride but way too big for me, and I want to buy the following: a hunter/jumper horse that is 15'2 to 15'3; has local show experience, is an easy loader, does auto changes, has the proper hunter frame (in other words a well trained horse, not a greenie). I prefer a horse around 6 to 8 years old (so it has mellowed out some). I like a horse with its own motor as I am used to a TB feel. I prefer to start looking in my home state of NJ. My trainer is looking for me but says feel free to look on my own and I will have her go check any horse I see that I like (as I want her input and am willing to pay her the 10% commission for her advice and to keep her happy). How much do you think I need to pay for a horse like this in this market? I will be a beginner at showing, so I won't do more than local shows and I am an adult, so I am not that ambitious, just want a fun horse that is easy to ride and show (in other words, not fancy). If any of you know of NJ horses for sale or where to look in NJ, please email me at Turtle1256@aol.com. Thanks. Or you can tell me online if you like.

CTT
Jan. 21, 2003, 11:11 PM
Liverpool you nailed some of my pet peeves. See these days people literally find me in the oddest ways to help consult them about better marketing strategies. I have no idea how in the past 5 months I have gotten the response I have but at the same time they keep coming. Am I good in my advice? I say I am otherwise why would someone go to the trouble of finding my email and spending hours trying to write a nice email in English that doesn’t write good English. I have followed the market for over 8 years as a kid wanting to find that perfect horse that one day when Im able to buy. My same skills got me jobs with various firms and companies that were trying to keep their company on the edge on selling.

My job Is to offer advice and with that advice comes tones of criticism. I go threw each of my clients proposed adverts, mailings, videos, photographs, text, online adds, websites… ect. With it come tones of hours comparing them to what is out there. To many people who have found me I am an asset. Don’t think I just sit in a chair all day looking at information. There have been times where I go to a farm as a special service and do the videos and photographs myself. I am the person that consults and takes you from the development to the actual managing emails to sending the data. I do this seldom but I do work with some clients who I have acquired and felt that these select farms were worth working with.

One of the things I see so much from sellers is their lack of effort to selling a horse. Im not putting you as the seller down but sometimes there is a line that needs to be drawn. One thing that I hate the most is someone pushing a horse or slipping the comment that this horse is for sale. Chat rooms I hear people talk about oh this horse is right for you and oh she would be so perfect as a horse for you. Im not one to brag but when it comes to this forum of solicitation all the time it gets annoying and will turn people away more than turn them on. I tell my clients that is a NO NO! Reason being is it is not professional.

I will be sitting in a chat room listening to someone preach about a horse and then go take a look. The one thing I look at before the picture is the size of the pictures and if they are laid out well along with proper information on that page. Things like a border, buttons to navigate well, contact info, the type (font)…. Basically I sit there and see how my eye moves. As I said in my first post if you have a site you are selling your soul. Then I move to the pictures….. Bad frame here, not level ground on conformation, saddle on the back, Gaudy bridle, polo’s, boots, untidy mane, dull coat, looks interesting (bad word for me to use)in conformation, too long of a distance, tooooooooo short of a distance, horse looking high in spirit, YOU NAME IT I LOOK AT IT. I can offer hints but some refuse to hear. They are just too busy to take the time.

Long texts are unbelievably boring since I know the owner wrote it and it is just their opinion. I snooze threw this. When I talk to one of my clients I tell them to include a pedigree but I am someone who is more into what THIS HORSE CAN DO and not what his grandmother and grandfather did. I have heard so many “I have a grand daughter of Northern Dancer” I for one could not give a rats about that. Sorry people but real buyers from experience look at POTENTIAL! This is what that very horse CAN DO! In the position I am in I believe that a horse is only as good as the person who backed him. He isn’t going to be a world top horse just cause his father was Abdula (sp?)

As I said earlier in this thread KNOW YOUR EQUIPMENT if you don’t PAY SOMEONE! Woble boble IS SO IRRITATEING TO WATCH! BLURY PICKS WON”T HELP! LOOK AT YOUR COMPETITION! KNOW THE HORSES THAT YOU ARE ON A SITE WITH! AND PLEAS OH PLEASE COMPLETE THE INFO AND PUT A PRICE!!!!!!! Anyone who says “price on request” or “serious inquire only” and no price most likely is not going to ENVITE A BUYER!!!! WELCOME THEM, EMBRACE THEM, BE NICE TO THEM, BE PATHETICLY NICE TO THEM, SERVE THEM!!!!!!!!

If you can’t take the time to take care of sending an email YOUR HORSE WILL NOT SELL AND YOU GET A NASTY REP!!!!! PEOPLE DO TALK! I TALK ALL THE TIME !!! You never know it might be me asking info and if you blow me off and someone might like that horse later on and asks me what I think I tell them they were rude cause they didn’t send me a SIMPLE EMAIL.

If your going to send someone a video (money saver) go to the local office supply place and transfer the video to a disk. A CHEEP SOLUTION!!! I buy a box of 250 CD’s. WORTH EVERY PENNY! Not to mention you don’t half to worry about getting it back. I don’t want to be rude but SELLERS GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND DO WHAT IS NEEDED TO SELL A HORSE!!!!!!!

Buyers don’t come out of a tall field. Work for that sale.

I know Im going to get heat from some sellers but think if everyone knew everything about selling a horse from making a call, to who to call to make a template for a magazine add, to writing your emails, to sourcing a photographer PEOPLE LIKE ME WOULD NOT EXIST!!!

Im half tempted to just write a book on the 500 ways to better market your horse……

JustJump
Jan. 22, 2003, 04:19 AM
&lt;&lt;CTT makes some excellent points. &gt;&gt;

CTT, welcome back to the boards...how have you been?

I am in no way disparaging the effectiveness of your "mass market" approach or the validity of your advice, which, for the most part is quite good.

However, your excellent points would be even more well taken if you would make an effort to correct your myriad spelling and grammatical errors!

&lt;&lt;in no way a pro&gt;&gt; From your description of your "services," it would seem you might be at least stepping close to the line. It would be prudent, for your own sake, to reflect upon whether or not you might plan to step over it in the future. USAEq rules have tightened up in regard to pro/am status; assisting in the marketing and sale of horses may place you in a gray area if you are not careful.

Ridin' Fool
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:08 AM
Almost "glad" to see that others are experiencing the slow down that our barn has - we thought we were cursed! We have several (like 6) horses/ponies (hunter, jumper and dressage) for sale between 10-40K, and absolutely no takers! All sensible, sound horses, good prices... cannot figure out what we're doing wrong! Well, drop our prices, I guess...

CTT
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:57 AM
Just Jump you are correct about the Pro/Am line that is why all I do is (most of the time) offer a list of ideas for the seller to take charge doing themselves. I have never received commission on a horse. NEVER!! Even if I did loose my Amateur level I don’t remember the last time I was in a show ring. So in other words I don’t care about that line. Last time I had membership was back in 2000.

Im not talking about just mass marketing horses Im talking about visual aids period. Anything from a flyer, to handing someone an actual picture, to the web selling.

If you’re selling a horse, unless the person is physically there when they are looking at the horse for the first time, pictures and videos are a common thing exchanged.

Im saying this cause this is the first common mistake to marketing any horse. You need to make sure your material is up to par. If not what will make me as the buyer take you seriously if the material isn't. If I was the buyer and did not see the potential then I would look someplace else.

When I did say "pro" though in my first post I meant in the context of my post. Not in the show ring of horses. I am not a pro in my department of consulting sellers. Reason I say this is there are many skills I have yet to master.

When you the seller, is up against hundreds of thousands of horses for sale you need to make sure your presentation is top line. Not hard to do if you just take some extra time.

Liverpool
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:58 AM
I have to say I do wonder where all these marvelous sale horses are languishing!

I started looking for a hunter prospect in September or October. Went to all the recommended websites, read through countless classifieds, told everyone I could think of - and I wasn't looking for the next coming of Rox Dene, just a nicely made young horse with a reasonably decent foundation.

I wanted a horse able to produce a decent walk-trot-canter and lead change on the flat and MAYBE some experience hopping over a jump or two. I could not believe how many people wanted me to spend $30-35k on a horse that couldn't do these simple things.

Mind you, I was not looking for a finished horse or a conformation prospect - but many of the sellers I talked to, IMO, had pretty unrealistic expectations of what their horses could reasonably sell for. And frankly, they were pretty hard to find.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Wicky
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:41 AM
JustJump -

I think you weren't on the board when CCT posted about herself - CCT has a severe LD. In the time I've been on the board I've noticed a REMARKABLE improvement in her spelling and grammar (contratulations, CCT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know it isn't easy!) and I was thinking of mentioning this when I read her first (worth saving as a reference) post on this thread.

Way to go, CCT!

MIKES MCS
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liverpool:
I have to say I do wonder where all these marvelous sale horses are languishing!

I started looking for a hunter prospect in September or October. I wasn't looking for the next coming of Rox Dene, just a nicely made young horse with a reasonably decent foundation.

I wanted a horse able to produce a decent walk-trot-canter and lead change on the flat and MAYBE some experience hopping over a jump or two. I could not believe how many people wanted me to spend $30-35k on a horse that couldn't do these simple things.

Mind you, I was not looking for a finished horse or a conformation prospect -

You should have no problem finding what your looking for, as long as your not looking in Fla / New York / or BNB's, The horse you discribe should be easy to find and if you have $35,000, it should be a snap.16-16.2 TB's under 10 years old can be found all over the US and Canada in the $7,500.00to $25,000.00 price range. Sometimes even lower.

Liverpool
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:59 AM
Mike,

Thanks, I did find one, after much searching, but it was not nearly as easy as you might think. (I ended up with nice 5 year old whom a friend noticed while riding at a clinic.)

As it turns out, this was NOT a horse that was actively being marketed, other than for the fact that it was at a sales barn. No ad, no video, no photo... the guy gets enough inquiries, I guess, and his reputation is such that people call HIM. But I only found out about him by accident - pure coincidence.

I just thought it was amazing how hard it was to find a horse like this. Like you, I thought it would be a snap. I am not a novice, have bought and sold my own - though not with the luxury of that price range - for several decades (gulp) but my take-away from the whole experience is:

Few pros want to deal with an individual buyer. If you don't have a BNT connection, forget trying to get even the courtesy of a call back - they might as well say "Don't bother to call us if we don't already know you; your money's no good here."

Many private sellers also seem to put the onus on the prospective buyer - most buyers don't want to call multiple times or "envision" how a horse would look IF someone bothered to clip, bathe, or take a decent video of them!

*sigh*

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

MIKES MCS
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:58 AM
My way of rebelling against high prices and multiple commissions is buying a nice prospect off track, training it for 1 to 3 years and selling it usually anywhere between 5-15,000. True I don't make any money but I still keep a hand in the horse world. Nothing makes me happier then finding a 12 year old ready to move up from their pony who can't afford the big bucks. My retrained TB's fit into their lives nicely.

Calvaro V
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:15 PM
Well as the original threadstarter on this I find all these responses overwheelming!! Thank you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The orignal reason for my question was I was hoping to make a break into the HJ market and start importing, showing and selling HJ. I just wanted to get a feel for what market is out there. Thank you for your opinions.

CTT
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:17 PM
Mike it is nice to see you take pride in just being a good “OL” horse person. It blew my mind when I saw how long you keep horses. Some people I have met only keep up to 6 weeks. I think to myself how much can a horse learn in that time frame?

Nice to see that you take the TIME to bring them along for the pure enjoyment of seeing them move on with a well rounded mind.

Liverpool I know how you feel about the frustration.

I know this wasn't your case but I had a friend looking eagerly at this mare in Mexico. She was in love with the mare but she sent the farm 5 emails and got no response. I sent him a polite email in Spanish and got a "Im so sorry" email from him. Just cause some people have an English site doesn't not mean they know English. The transaction became final but I always make sure to have the email when dealing internationally translated to their language.

I have also been known to send an email that says "What am I not worth your time cause I could be serious, guess you don't think Im a real person. Too bad we could have had a deal. Best of luck."

Then I have had the person go out of their way to give me an absolutely in depth novel on the horse. That right there makes a world of difference.

It all depends on if that person on the other end finds you to be good enough for them.

CTT
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:34 PM
Eurohorse good for you. Just one thing to a fellow person in the business. Make sure you know your market.

If you ever have questions ask someone. If you need the advice of someone in this business feel free to email me. I started from scratch and now well I have a Big can't type worth a darn mouth.

Take a good large look at the industry and make sure you do your research. Ill give you a word of advice: Take your time, make it perfect, learn all you can and make it an art cause that is what this is. When it gets fustrateing, sit back, look away, then approach it from another side. Know your target area, what your goals are and use your brain. Be honest, strait foward, and don't be shy to use new ideas. Trial and error's happen but learn from them.

Liverpool
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have also been known to send an email that says "What am I not worth your time cause I could be serious, guess you don't think Im a real person. Too bad we could have had a deal. Best of luck." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the time I just ignore the non-responses and make a mental note about them. The horse world is small - and I don't hesitate to share my experiences with others, both good and bad.

In ONE particular case, I had invested a pretty fair amount of time trying to get info on one horse I really liked. It was in a BNT's barn (with slick sales materials and a beautiful website, FWIW) and it was within easy driving distance, so I thought it worth pursuing.

Despite several conversations in which it was agreed that the horse was the sort I was looking for and priced in the range that I was willing to spend (this took multiple emails and phone calls) apparently I was deemed not worthy of a video.

I did send that one a note saying "I did finally find a nice horse, just wanted you to know I never did receive the material you promised to send - you may want to check with whomever is responsible for your sales materials."

I am sure they couldn't care less, but I was more than annoyed, and will go out of my way to mention them as one place to avoid when I hear of people who are looking.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Calvaro V
Jan. 22, 2003, 01:58 PM
Well thanks CTT - that is really nice of you. I'm looking at my options, assesing my market, etc. I won't be rushing into anything though.

Tripleoxer
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:44 PM
Liverpool... What I find amusing in your response is that you said that the barn was within EASY driving distance.... yet you wanted a video.... One would think that if there was some REAL interest you would WANT to see the horse in the flesh, so to speak... Were you going to purchase the horse soley off of the video? I could understand if you were 4000 miles away, as I have sold horses via a video this way, but you were close by. Maybe you havn't sold many horses in your life but if you had you would QUICKLY realize that there are many "Tire kickers" that waste sellers and professionals time with "Can you send me a video?". That video 90% of the time never comes back home.
I am sure that you purchased a nice horse, but on the other hand you may have missed out on a nicer one!

Horsepower
Jan. 23, 2003, 09:22 AM
Things may be slow, but it's the same old horse world. Someone selling horses told me a price range much higher than what we are all saying today for what I am looking for (she quoted the old when the economy was great prices) and someone who knows my horse and owns a barn put out feelers about paying me meat market money for my horse (my trainer says it's worth at least $7,500).

lisa
Jan. 23, 2003, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tripleoxer:
Liverpool... What I find amusing in your response is that you said that the barn was within EASY driving distance.... yet you wanted a video.... One would think that if there was some REAL interest you would WANT to see the horse in the flesh, so to speak... Were you going to purchase the horse soley off of the video? I could understand if you were 4000 miles away, as I have sold horses via a video this way, but you were close by. Maybe you havn't sold many horses in your life but if you had you would QUICKLY realize that there are many "Tire kickers" that waste sellers and professionals time with "Can you send me a video?". That video 90% of the time never comes back home.
I am sure that you purchased a nice horse, but on the other hand you may have missed out on a nicer one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's where I think you're wrong. Making/sending a video should never be thought of as a waste of time for sellers. And, IMO, the videos should not be expected to be returned. That should be one of the costs of doing business.

In addition, as a buyer, I'm conscious of wasting both our time. The 15 minutes it takes to send a video is far less time (I hope!) than you'd spend preparing a horse that I may not even want to consider. I'd much rather see a video and make an initial judgement than drive four hours, stay for five minutes, and drive home. You tell me what you think is the bigger waste of time.

dbtoo
Jan. 23, 2003, 02:13 PM
What I see in our little corner of the world is that there is a log jam at the bottom. Our barn has several riders who are looking for new horses but can't do anything until they sell their previous horses. Right now there are hardly any new people getting into the sport and buying those first step horses and ponies. Once those people reappear there will be big domino effect and all horses will start selling again.

Lord Helpus
Jan. 23, 2003, 03:10 PM
I am also a seller who is reading all of this very seriously. I have not been actively marketing my horses because: (1) I thought that the trainer one was with would market him to earn a commission. That horse has now left that trainer and so it is up to me to get him sold. (2) The other horse has no good jumping pictures. I ride by myself and don't have anyone around to help take pictures. And at shows, the photographers do not come to the 2'6" ring, so I have never had him photographed at a show. I now realize I am being pathetic about this, and I just plain need to hire a professional photographer to come out and take some good jumping pictures. Thank you for the guidance and suggestions.

For people who are poor spellers, may I offer a suggestion in return. (I am not that bad a speller, but I must be dyslexic, because when I proof posts they look fine. Only when I see them on the BB, do I notice the errors....)

If I have a post that is important, I write it in Word and do a spell/grammar check. Only once Word has helped me out, do I copy and post it on the BB. And for occasional spelling questions, I keep Word open and minimized so that it is easy for me to click on it, type the word and run a quick spell check on that word. Of course, the REAL problems are words that I am tooooo stupid to even know I am mis-spelling. Then, fellow readers, just pretend it is a typo... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have listed one horse on Dream Horse and am about to list the 2 mentioned above. Is Dream Horse the best place I could start? The first one was a TB broodmare and she got the most interest off Bloodhorse.com, so I don't know how effective Dream Horse is for hunters.

OH, one final comment: I listed this mare for $6000. I got two full price offers and an offer for $500. The later person said that she hoped she was not insulting me with the offer. I think that, if you feel as if you need to add that into the offering email, then..... Guess What?... You probably ARE insulting the seller. As buyers, be realistic in what you can afford. An honest offer of 10%-15% lower is one thing. But offering 1/12th of the asking price is not an offer. It IS an insult to the person who has priced the horse.

Bumpkin
Jan. 23, 2003, 03:18 PM
....."OH, one final comment: I listed this mare for $6000. I got two full price offers and an offer for $500. The later person said that she hoped she was not insulting me with the offer. I think that, if you feel as if you need to add that into the offering email, then..... Guess What?... You probably ARE insulting the seller. As buyers, be realistic in what you can afford. An honest offer of 10%-15% lower is one thing. But offering 1/12th of the asking price is not an offer. It IS an insult to the person who has priced the horse. "

I would feel ok if someone did that and hoped they had not insulted me, because, they are atleast not making it sound like they are doing you a BIG favour and taking the horse off your hands. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But that is just how I would feel in that circumstance, and you never know, they may pay way more, like full price on another horse later.
If you cordially refuse that first offer.
Kill them with kindness if you are a seller. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

2ndyrgal
Jan. 23, 2003, 03:54 PM
To all you "sellers" out there! I want a big, ugly, not fancy, GELDING. He must not be a 10,000. horse for sale for 30,000, because that's what your trainer talked you into 2 years ago and now you need 30K for the fancy one. I want a horse to field hunt first, and do the 3ft at B shows, if I'm in the mood. Meaning he should just come out of the field, jump on the trailer and be thrilled to go. He does not have to win, or even place, he just needs to do his job honestly. I show to socialize with my aged friends, we no longer cry about how we did, we laugh loud and they yell louder if I get lost on course because I'm daydreaming. You dont place much if someone on the rail yells "turn left to the oxer! So with all these wonderful horses eating people out of house and home, why can't I find one? By the way, said steed would have the life of Riley, or royalty, whichever he prefers.

CTT
Jan. 23, 2003, 06:54 PM
Im not going to make this easy but here are some sites I frequent or use or refer. I have listed 46 sites to help list your horses. Some are simple some are common.

BigEQ
WEF Equatrian
EquineSite
Equestrian Classifieds
Horse Quest
Equine Trader
Equisearch
Horses Online
Show Horses 4 sale
Equine Promotions
Horse Direct
Dream Horse
2 buy horses
Horse classified
Equine Showcase
Equestrian Classifieds
Grand Prix Classifieds
equine.com
The Judges Choice
Equestrian-connection
Horse Sales. Com
Net Equestrian
Stable Mates
horsesales
equerry
agg direct
Horse Trader Online
Net Equine
Horse Depot
go horses
web pony
horse web
the horse excange
Sporthorse Classifieds
virtual horse
equimart
equininfinity
Horse classifieds
Horse wanted
Horsenet.org
Free Horse adds
Equifelds
Find A Horse
Horseclassifieds y2k
equestrienne
pure equine

If you have a breed listed horse add them to their breed sites too...

Enjoy

murph
Jan. 23, 2003, 07:09 PM
2ndyrgal.....email me or check our site!

Re the horse market, we usually sell as many as 60 horses per year in all price ranges from greenies to nice made horses and last year was a HUGE decline, it is definitely the slowest I have seen in over 25 years of doing business. We have horses for sale in Canada and a bunch in Virginia and I have found that there is still a strong market for that 10K and under green with potential type in both countries. Anything over that is basically about half the normal asking price and still not really selling. Tough times and I fear more ahead if this Iraq thing blows up. For all of us in the horse business full time I think these are pretty scary times. If economies and world conflicts get any worse, I myself see an awful lot of the horse market drying up...there is just too much on people's minds these days and I think also even the well-off are realizing that they are vulnerable and need to be more conservative in their spending.

Was anyone here down for any part of the Florida circuits? How were sales and prices? We have a couple of fabulous big eq horses and one legit jr/ami 4'6 jumper and honestly I don't even know where to price them anymore. I want to get them sold but I don't want to give them away either. Very hard decisions. Anyone have any feedback for the REAL market range for these types of horses, and also for solid 3' fancy and reliable types? I mean prices that are ACTUALLY SELLING, not ASKING prices lol!!!


Buy Canadian eh!!!!
A $1000 Canadian buys you about a cup of coffee in the U.S....it's so sad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
http://pages.sprint.ca/missionridgefarm/index.html

[This message was edited by murph on Jan. 23, 2003 at 10:18 PM.]

Liverpool
Jan. 23, 2003, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tripleoxer:
Liverpool... What I find amusing in your response is that you said that the barn was within EASY driving distance.... yet you wanted a video.... One would think that if there was some REAL interest you would WANT to see the horse in the flesh, so to speak... Were you going to purchase the horse soley off of the video? I could understand if you were 4000 miles away, as I have sold horses via a video this way, but you were close by. Maybe you havn't sold many horses in your life but if you had you would QUICKLY realize that there are many "Tire kickers" that waste sellers and professionals time with "Can you send me a video?". That video 90% of the time never comes back home.
I am sure that you purchased a nice horse, but on the other hand you may have missed out on a nicer one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TripleOxer,

I think a lot of sellers share your mindset. And I think they miss out on a lot of sales to buyers like me as a result.

In this case, the horse in question was about a four hour drive away - that is eight hours round trip.

I don't have the time or the inclination to drive around the countryside looking at horses whose owners or agents can only offer a blurry still photo or a description on a website. Their idea of what constitutes an A circuit hunter prospect may be very different from mine.

I have a full time job that requires a minimum of 55-60 hours a week, and frequently more - many of them on the road traveling (don't I WISH it was just nine to five!) and if I get a whole weekend off, it is quite a luxury.

So, no, I wasn't planning to buy the horse solely from a video but I also wasn't going to invest an entire day going to see it if it wasn't what I was looking for.

The old adage "it takes money to make money" is somewhat true. I don't think asking a seller to spend a few dollars on a video cassette and some postage is asking a lot, particularly when the asking price of the horse in question was in the mid five figure range.

For what it's worth... I drove six hours to look at the one I ultimately bought, and was happy to do it. Just prior to that I bought plane tix to fly to Canada to try another one, that sadly did not pass the vet.

There are many buyers, even in this market, for whom time is a bigger constraint than money.
(Translation: These are the people who can and will pay MORE for your horses, if you would only make the transaction easy and convenient for them!)

[This message was edited by Liverpool on Jan. 23, 2003 at 10:26 PM.]

dcm
Jan. 23, 2003, 09:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
To all you "sellers" out there! I want a big, ugly, not fancy, GELDING. He must not be a 10,000. horse for sale for 30,000, because that's what your trainer talked you into 2 years ago and now you need 30K for the fancy one. I want a horse to field hunt first, and do the 3ft at B shows, if I'm in the mood. Meaning he should just come out of the field, jump on the trailer and be thrilled to go. He does not have to win, or even place, he just needs to do his job honestly. I show to socialize with my aged friends, we no longer cry about how we did, we laugh loud and they yell louder if I get lost on course because I'm daydreaming. You dont place much if someone on the rail yells "turn left to the oxer! So with all these wonderful horses eating people out of house and home, why can't I find one? By the way, said steed would have the life of Riley, or royalty, whichever he prefers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check Diane Crump's website. There are several made foxhunters on there that might be of interest to you. Good luck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Diane Crump (http://wwww.dianecrump.com)

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

CTT
Jan. 23, 2003, 09:40 PM
Liverpool your right about that. Common courtesy is the only way not to get stabbed in the back. If your do worried about a tape then you’re a going to be left in the dark when it comes to a more advanced market.

I had a friend in Chile who spoke no English and daughter only had the basics, at the age of 68, flew me down for two weeks to teach him how to use a computer. 6 months later he had a site and with my help a very nice one. Sadly right now it is down for a revamp. A year later he has increased his sales from 20 horses a year to 60 horses a year. he even had to find horses to buy cause he had run out of horses to sell. I think VDL Stud would be embarrassed if they didn’t send a video to a prospective client. Last time I checked Horsecommerce will go into the field to that farm to take a fresh video within a week request for you if you want to see more footage. Maybe the skills these companies should be better looked at to learn from. Better yet Ill include that I send many emails to international based companies and have yet to have a farm not respond. They even go to the extent of translating it back to English for me and send me an attached sales list. Out of thousands of farms I have had one not respond based outside of North America.

But you come US and Canada bound it is like pulling teeth. Maybe that is why International horses will sell easier because Americans just don’t get it.

Even I don’t understand why someone would have a fit about a tape. If you’re that worried take it as a loss on your taxes as business expenses.

From these International based farms I get a folder with their logo and printed brochures, an extensive page layout of their horses for current sale with a tape, a bio page, pages about the farm, training and breeding goals, a resource list of past clients and their horses with a CD or VHS video to watch of all the horses that are in that folder, included is a price list, companies they use for transport, and a business card. Sometimes I even get a transfer charges code so they get billed if I call them….. HMM What is wrong with this picture???????

Yet is I inquire to some American based sellers it is like pulling teeth to get an answer. HMMMMMM I think we need to revamp our selling strategies. Weatherford that book is looking like a good idea…….
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CTT
Jan. 23, 2003, 10:45 PM
Murph one quick idea I tell people is to look at the euro market. Inquire on about 30 horses of the areas your selling then average it out to get the price. Also look at the canadian market and take that in to your equation.

The reason I say this is cause of the volume of competeing against the International market. Remeber your not just up against your atea anymore but the world. Why whould I buy a horse from you when I can go to Denmark or Holland and get a nicer horse with its other fees for 5k less? That is why I say such a thing.

Also go threw the sites I gave out and see what horses are being marketed for on those sites.


On the topic of pictures since it is running threw my head at this moment.

A tip that I would like others to think of is, when doing confo. shots use a solid wall with the sun on a partly cloudy day hitting on your back. If you are doing a gay use a dark background, shooting a chestnut use a big green hedge, when shooting a bay use a light background. Try to stay away from pictures in the field unless you have a big field or a well lit partly cloudy day and a sharp color film or a softer filter on your video camera lense. It will make the horse stand out. Also if your doing a picture in the indoor arena and is dark use two tall lamps without shades behind you to create a sharper lite with a 50wat bulb. you'll see what I mean.

One word of advice if your buying a video camera get something with a speed of at least 2000.

Good luck

[This message was edited by CTT on Jan. 24, 2003 at 12:55 PM.]

Liverpool
Jan. 24, 2003, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by CTT:
From these International based farms I get a folder with their logo and printed brochures, an extensive page layout of their horses for current sale with a tape, a bio page, pages about the farm, training and breeding goals, a resource list of past clients and their horses with a CD or VHS video to watch of all the horses that are in that folder, included is a price list, companies they use for transport, and a business card. Sometimes I even get a transfer charges code so they get billed if I call them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my experience as well. It does seem like the international sellers know how to MARKET their sales horses. In this economic climate, I really think it makes a huge difference.

I guess I can understand the limitations of a private seller more than I can from someone who represents that they are a "professional" but frankly as a group, the pros were the worst!

There has been so much discussion about the commissions charged for acting as an agent to sell a horse; it seems odd to me that so few people seem to view those $$ as payment for SERVICES (such as sending videos) and yes, even the annoyance of dealing with the sales process (people calling at all hours or the dreaded tire kickers.) Again, in a professional situation, that is what the PRO is being paid for.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

BLBGP
Jan. 24, 2003, 10:32 AM
Anyone know how horses are selling so far in Indio & Florida?

CTT
Jan. 24, 2003, 10:55 AM
Liverpool yet again you have made some good points. I hear all the time from American sellers that they don't understand why people go International. Bottom line is they market them better to the buyer.

I hear people say from the buying side "I have a trainer but they are not making the effort of finding me a horse". I then hear "I have a trainer or agent who isn't actively selling a horse for me yet Im paying them fees to do so".

To me actively selling means the seller or agent who is selling your horse or yourself is someone who can take you threw the whole process. There is a big gap about marketing and selling but in reality they are the same thing when it is in the matter of horses. When you are marketing or having someone else market your horse you want to make sure they put a strong effort out. Yes at times it is more expensive but in the end it makes you feel like you were well represented.

Actively selling to me also means making sure someone who knows how to video tape, comes out to the farm to tape that horse. Not some farm friend who has a camera that you can take simple video with. Preferably someone who knows how to make the horse shine on camera. Actively selling to me means building a photo collection of pictures of every angle of that horse. From there that same person consults you on correct pictures so you don't have a rear cut off by a shadow here or a big head there.

Actively selling to me most importantly means then building of a portfolio for that horse. Unless you have the equipment yourself this is where I would hire a designer. When I am making a portfolio I think about the presentation of that farm. I sit there and first design the folder. This is the first thing people will see when they open a package. Once I have the layout for that and have printed a sample folder (mind you I have small and large frame printers at home to do this on) I work from there. Before I add test and pictures I developed a special layout for that farm, putting a border, background, logo, and contact info. I then print that and let it sit for a bit. As Im looking at this I cut the videos and from the flair of the videos I can sit there looking at the page and folder to see if I have given them a nice representation.

Once I am at that point I pull 20 conformation photos. 5 head photos, 10 walking photos, 10 trotting photos, 20 jumping photos, 10 free jumping photos, 10 trotting free photos, 10 cantering free and then some natural stance shots. I also take leg shots of both the left and right side, rear pictures of the legs (with tail in a nice mud knot), and front leg pictures. I get down on the ground for this so that I can get accurate shots to show the legs.

I will print each one out and spread them on the wall with thumb tacks and see which ones represent that horse the best. From there I begin the photo layout stage. This usually will be about 5 pages long with headers and dates of photo taken. If it is a young horse I include some foal pictures too.

I then add the text and from there build the rest of the portfolio. I will create a farm page of the facilities with a map to them. I will then consult the person selling them other things that they might want to include. When I am done I put the folder together and on the inside of the folder, place a business card with a staple to make sure it stays put and then paperclip another to the first page.

Once that is done I let my client know that I am ready. Once they give me the go ahead I will then search sites for them and begin the upload for them to sell on. Once we are done there we will then upload the pictures and data to their site if they have not done so already.

Once this is done they send me a list of what clients want of which horses and I will mail the specified info for them. If the clients want it transmitted by e-mail I take the pre made e-mail layouts and e-mail it to them. It is tricky to describe such a complex process but in the end the sellers are happy cause they feel they well represented their horses. The buyer on the other hand feels good cause they felt like they got what they wanted to make a easy decision. Sadly I have yet to work with an American seller. Now Im not too sure I want to. Internationally speaking I feel the people I work with overseas are more pleasant and willing to use new ideas.

When I was working for a larger company we also offered to our clients email management. This means we took care of their emails for them and then once we had a serious buyer, would let it go from there. Meanwhile we would send the seller weekly reports, with the original emails and that buyers info just incase the seller wanted to get in contact with them. It was nice though cause once the sale went threw, we would get that horse booked for shipping. Companies do exits like this sadly they are mostly still outside the US.

CTT
Jan. 24, 2003, 11:03 AM
At this moment is is still too early to tell what is going on with the show market. From the sound of it it is moveing like it usualy does but the buyers are more picky. The green market is moveing from the sound of it and so is the made horse market. Most of the shows though are in slow deals. Untill the shows start moveing it will be hard to know for sure who has sold what. I think the numers will be better in two weeks.

I do feel we will have a good year but it is unsure how many people went down to sell horses and how many will come back with the same person till the shows are in swing.

Heather
Jan. 24, 2003, 11:16 AM
Fizz--unfortunately I don't know where you could go to find siblings--most places don't track by pedigree (I know the USEA doesn't). Best bet would to, say, go over American Horses in Sport, and the Steeplechase issue of COTH, and look for his name (both of those issues usually display pedigree of winners, prelim and above for eventers in AHIS, and all winners in the Steeplechase issue. It's time consuming, but you can find out names of sibs who like to run and jump!

FOr strict racing info you can go to the Jockey CLub information systems and do a record of get of sire report for a nominal fee. That'll only show race records of off spring though.

maggieh
Jan. 24, 2003, 11:39 AM
I have to chime in on the video issue. I have been looking for a horse for quite some time and really am trying to make an effort to find the right one for me. Does being particular and asking questions and turning down a horse that has issues I can't accept make me a tire kicker? I don't think so. I'm just going to write you a check for $30,000 without making sure this horse is what you say it is? Yeah right! I don't want to buy a horse who's rideability, disposition, or soundness I have not examined with a fine tooth comb, and I don't think any buyer should be discouraged from making a well-informed decision--especially when a considerable chunk of change is involved. And I think any good seller should want to make a good match---it will only improve the seller's reputation. As for videos, I agree with what Liverpool said....I requested a video from a farm just three hours away from me because I have gotten too many videos of horses that have been misrepresented over the phone. It's not me that's wasting the seller's time asking for a video, I am seriously looking,cash in hand and know exactly what I want---but I feel like many sellers are wasting my time in sending me videos of these things that in no way resemble what I have told them I am looking for! If I say I want a horse that will be competitive in the hack at the A's, do not send me a video of something with as much knee action as a Walking Horse! I don't even mind the bad quality videos (bad camera work, editing, etc.) as much as I mind getting a video of a horse that could never in its life make an A circuit hunter when that is what I clearly said I am looking for. And the more I look the more I feel like some sellers do not want to deal with independent clients because they would rather make a hassle free sale through a trainer to a client that will sign the check whatever their trainer tells them to--and while I understand that 'business is business', I think that attitude can only be detrimental in the long term and does nothing to promote a good image for our sport.

CTT
Jan. 24, 2003, 11:51 AM
Doesn't it make you wish more sellers would read this thread so that you get just what you want??????

From the buyers side I agree with you.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet
Jan. 24, 2003, 12:07 PM
I'll be trying to sell a young (3yo) horse later this spring, and I am reading this thread in great detail. Plan to take advantage of all the advice.

Hidden Hill Farm
Jan. 24, 2003, 01:10 PM
2ndyrgal email me at hiddenhill.farm@verizon.net

Blinky
Jan. 24, 2003, 01:42 PM
Maggieh,
Here here! I totally agree with you.

Liverpool
Jan. 24, 2003, 02:22 PM
MaggieH,

At least I know I am not the only one who has gone through this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If you'd like a lead on the place I *finally* found my horse, you're welcome to shoot me an email. It sounds like you are looking for just about the same thing I was. I would absolutely recommend them to you.

Best of luck either way!

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Beezer
Jan. 24, 2003, 07:04 PM
Have been reading this thread with great interest. Good thoughts all around.

Having been on both sides of the check more times than I can count, I feel and share everyone's pain. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But a quick note on what *buyers* also owe *sellers*: PLEASE LISTEN to what we tell you in response to your questions. Granted, it may only be some of us, but there are sellers out there who fairly represent their horses and really don't want to waste your time OR ours in having you come look at a horse that we think is unsuitable for you but you insist on wanting to see anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I can't tell you the number of times we've had people insist on coming to see a horse, then being disappointed by XYZ or that the horse wasn't suitable as an XYZ. When we remind them that we told them about XYZ or that the horse wasn't ever gonna be an XYZ, we're told, essentially, that they just figured we didn't know what we were talking about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sure, we've been on the other end, too, where when we're the buyer we've had a horse built up to us and the reality bites. But as a buyer, when a seller tells me a horse isn't suitable, I tend to listen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

** Dear Cupid: All I really want for Valentine's Day is flying LEAD CHANGES!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif **

Spot
Jan. 25, 2003, 09:06 AM
really interesting discussion!

I had one mare that I was thinking of sending to Florida with a top pro to get sold, and was told to "not bother". If my sole reason was to sell her in Florida, and not get mileage to continue on with once she came back to Canada, they had not sold a horse in Florida for 7 or 8 years.
Where it DID help them was in selling the horse easier once it came back home again, by virtue of the fact it had the show mileage already before our season had started.
They also acknowledged that the market was the worst they had seen it in years in the under $100,000.00 range.

I have no qualms about offering any amount of money on a horse that I truly feel is worth only XXX. And I will back that up to the seller by stating WHY I feel their horse is only worth $2000.00 instead of the $8000.00 they are asking. I will not merely offer a price with no explanation given and leave them wondering if I am a total jerk or not.

My market, thankfully, has never been better. We cannot keep babies past their weanling /yearling years - they are sold long before that, for good prices.
I would love to have a nice green broke 3 year old to offer for sale, but none stay around long enough to get to be that old!
I have said it before on other forums, where I can and do capitalize greatly is in selling to a market that covets and WANTS babies. There are great incentives to buy weanlings, and at the end of the day the new owners can actually come out ahead by money earned at shows by showing these weanlings, yearlings and 2 year olds. The futurities are very lucrative and you can have fun showing plus make enough to pay for all costs for the year on your babies.
It really is a win/win situation all the way around.

I have just bought 2 more broodmares to try and keep up with the demand for foals and I hope the market continues to be as strong as it has been to warrant these purchases.

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

CentrelineFarm
Jan. 25, 2003, 09:13 AM
This is an amazing thread.

I have been on both sides, and we are having a disscussion like this in the Breeding section.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> From these International based farms I get a folder with their logo and printed brochures, an extensive page layout of their horses for current sale with a tape, a bio page, pages about the farm, training and breeding goals, a resource list of past clients and their horses with a CD or VHS video to watch of all the horses that are in that folder, included is a price list, companies they use for transport, and a business card. Sometimes I even get a transfer charges code so they get billed if I call them….. HMM What is wrong with this picture???????

Yet is I inquire to some American based sellers it is like pulling teeth to get an answer. HMMMMMM I think we need to revamp our selling strategies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know what?????
Most breeders in North America are small, local people with full time jobs who are raising quality horses on a shoestring budget. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

You want a folder with glossies and a professional layout? Go to Hilltop or Iron Spring. They do it right. They can afford to send out a $10 package to each person who inquires. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But I guarantee you will pay a lot more for the horses.

Me? I send out a video to almost everyone that asks. But I feel that I have the right to get some information first. I want to know if you are a suitable buyer for my horse. What experience do you have? What type of rider are you? As a breeder, I have spent four years on that three year old. I have obsessed about bloodlines. I have worried about injuries. I have fed and cleaned in all sorts of weather. Then I risked my neck and spent hours and hours breaking and training it.

Perhaps we cannot compete with the big guys in Europe. But my horses are loved and are loving. They are gentle and trusting. They were raised in big open spaces with excellent feed and lots of handling. Read the breeding thread to see how European horses are usually raised (and I don't mean all of them, just a large percentage of them).

It is a frustrating situation on both sides. As a breeder and seller, I am constantly faced with tire kickers, and unrealistic riders, and trainers with their own agenda (millions of these, believe me).

As a buyer, I am confronted with overeager sellers, inaccurately portrayed horses, and inadequate information.

CTT - if I tried to market my farm like you suggest, then my horses would have to be in the $30,000 range as 2 year olds just to make a profit. How much money do you think breeders make?? How much time do we have??? I have a full time job as well as my farm. But I guarantee you my horses are just as nice, if not nicer (and certainly have better temperaments) than most imports I have ever seen.

Bottom line.... imported horses are easier and more appealing for trainers. But the buyers are not necessarily getting the better ride.

Liverpool
Jan. 25, 2003, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Millie
CTT - if I tried to market my farm like you suggest, then my horses would have to be in the $30,000 range as 2 year olds just to make a profit. How much money do you think breeders make?? How much time do we have??? I have a full time job as well as my farm. But I guarantee you my horses are just as nice, if not nicer (and certainly have better temperaments) than most imports I have ever seen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a pretty common (mis)perception about marketing.

"I don't have the money/time/expertise to produce all these sales materials!" the sellers will howl. "Don't these buyers understand that they could get my product/service/offering cheaper if I didn't have to do all that?!"

Well - with horses, it would also be cheaper if you didn't have to feed or house or clip or shoe them, but since these are things the sellers know and understand as necessary, they accept that expense.

For the most part, buyers are ALSO hobbyists, (just like many breeders) with full time jobs and families and the rest - this is a recreational pursuit, not a full time activity.

Your horses are probably every bit as nice - or nicer - as those warmbloods you mention, that you compete against for sales. But without marketing, how will the buyers know that? How will they find you? It really does not take a $10 pkg to market a horse, but it probably does take more than most smaller breeders seem willing to do.

There is nothing wrong with that, if they are satisfied with their sales program, but it does answer the question as to why so many buyers go to the big farms or buy imports.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.
Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

CTT
Jan. 25, 2003, 02:11 PM
Milliethefilly:


You think all International breeders are Large? There is the same ratio that we have here.

You might have top line horses but, what will happen when the market shifts again? What will you need to do to be able to handle that shift? Most large breeders started off small just like you but, ask yourself why they became that big?

Im sure Spot has learned the tactics that make her so in demand (Spot, well considering your stud appeals to more than one area of the horse world not to mention throws some adorable flashy horses I can see why.). Now cause of that she has been able to expand. I bet threw trial she has found her demand by using similar tactics over the years to get that market. If not she must have a natural knack for this. Spot, if you did throw some of your tactics out so we can learn from them cause if it is just by luck I want some of it.

Funny thing is I have heard of Spot's farm before but I wonder how I have? The thing is I have heard of it. So if I have heard of it, think of others who have heard of it. But how did she get us to hear of her farm? Probably spent days adding her link to numerous sites out there to get coverage. I might have found it that way. Maybe I heard of her from a magazine add she might have placed at one point. Maybe. just maybe, I got a brochure from her in my mail box or an email from her. Maybe that’s how I learned of her.

It doesn't take millions to be a big time advertiser or marketer but it takes that first year of someone consulting you, if you need a new direction to find ways, to work with your budget. Im not saying I do what I preach with every farm and that is the only way I work with them. They might just hire me to do nothing more than to plaster their link and only their link all over the net for them.

They might hire me just to handle their mailing list, or just as someone to give them ideas that might work for them. I work with their needs and only push what they could use at that time. If I do my job well then I go with the next stage. I say this cause if they come back then that means they are happy with what I have provided.

I might just get an email from someone asking me if I know of some sites to list on. I send them the list I have and for a smile on the other end I could care less if they pay me because in the future I know they will come back for something else. Marketing is the most time consuming thing you can do.

Ill give you ideas that you can do to create some more marketing elements for cheep.

Above listed on the other page of this is a huge list of some sites you can advertise your horses on. Some are pricey but most are relatively manageable. Of those make sure you include your link to your site or if not tell them to inquire for a full sales list by email.

On your site if you do have one add an email updates capability. This allows you to create a mailing list to market new horses to those people.

If you’re a breeder make sure to have a link listing to that breeds site and maybe offer one horse for sale on it.

Whenever you come to a site add your link to it by doing a link exchange. Takes 2 extra minuets to send an email or add it to the URL box. Get on the web rings. Don't be shy to add your link to some international sites. Most people who navigate them are Americans. Like Mr. Horse, EquineWeb.Uk. Get on the DMOZ list, Yahoo, Google, AOL, Lycos, MSN lists. There are programs that will add you to be priority pops on various searches.

Now did that take millions to create that simple marketing edge? In all you might have spent maybe on 500 link additions and sales lists 400 usd. But that is 500 more spots your horses are being seen from. From there you can expand.

The thing is do you have the time to do something. If not I will be frank, I charge about 10 cents per link addition but I can do it faster cause I have the stored lists on my computer. So for a list that would take most searchers weeks to find, within 4 days I will have you on the net. With how ever many sites you want me to add you to.

Now readers listen to this cause I know from past situations..

I don't take commission from you for this service if a client comes from the sites I list you on but some people will do such things. Im not going to name names but there are marketing companies that say if you do get a buyer from their services they offer they get on top of what you pay them to do a commission. Im saying this cause BE CAREFULL NOT TO GET TRAPED!

Now since I have posted this, anyone who thinks Im trying to get business for myself think again. Ill refer you off to someone else because I don't have the time. So Im not trying to get businesses Im just trying to teach others how to better their business demands by taking new routs.

Wow some of you are already making a killing cause Im telling you how to do such simple economical things too.

On the other page do you think I would post sites I use if I wasn't trying to give others an edge? Obviously it doesn't take much money to be a bigger seller. WOW did I just say that? But it does take money.

Do you think Hill Top Farm started off as a big time breeder? No, it started as a dream and with hard work and money, became what it is today. If Im not mistaken, over 80% of their advertising is in house by the people who work there. So for them they had skills and in house help to keep the cost down but at the same time they have put out tones of money but cause of it for some reason they are popular. Is it because they have crappy horses? No they have some nice horses and because they built up their quality they have also built up their ability to advertise.

Look at Acorn Hill Farm. I get all warm inside when I see their horses but some how those horses and each element they (Acorn Hill marketers) use has presented them well. I'll admit I love their PH add this year in the stud issue. But I love hanging at their site and looking at these horses in general...

The bottom line is you need to, as a seller, make the best first impression cause in time it will make you or break you. That is the bottom line. If you can’t before you get into selling find someone who can.

CTT
Jan. 25, 2003, 02:33 PM
"There is nothing wrong with that, if they are satisfied with their sales program, but it does answer the question as to why so many buyers go to the big farms or buy imports."

Liverpool I think more people might be a bit more inclined to pay a bit more cause there is one things these big boys tend to do better...

SERVICE!!!!

They make you feel like kings and queens if they have a good rep.... If I was a buyer I would pay a bit more for making me feel like Im special over pay for that same horse for cheaper with a non personal feeling...


OH AND PEOPLE!!! Quit thinking of some people as tire kickers! I hate that. I see them as future buyers if not now but in 4 years or so. If you make them feel good you never know but if you are rude they could open their mouths and make you look like scum. Even Jr. Riders I look at them like that because it is common politeness. Think how you would feel if you went to Rodeo Drive in sweats and could have millions in your pocket but they look at you as white trash cause of what you are wearing.

Get off this tire kicker thing because I have never heard an international client call anyone that and if they did they would kick themselves for being so rude. If you blow someone off you just never know and from that persons mouth could make you look like scum of the sale industry.

Im angered by this saying. In some situations I have opened my mouth to a prospective client of someone else. Think next time cause if it is me just testing you and I do, I have a huge mouth as you can see.

Spot
Jan. 25, 2003, 03:11 PM
CTT - you and I are on the same wave length!

Lets see - when I first got Spot Pocket 5 years ago, and decided to get into this breeding business, I sent hundreds of faxes (email wasnt so prevalent then) to farms throughout North America telling them about my new acquisition.

I also did up flyers that I mailed to every tack shop in Canada asking them to please post them on their bulletin boards.

The advent of the internet sure helped, and I launched my web site with BIG help from from sister, and learned how to do everything myself so that I didnt have to bug her to post new pictures and text on it.

I then went through breed publications and made up lists of people that I thought might, at some point in time, be interested in my stallion(s) or my foals. That list was comprised of email addresses and/or fax numbers and I then spent literally weeks, if not months, sending thousands of emails and faxes to people. They were short and sweet, not intrusive, and I never got one negative comment back, but plenty of nice comments instead.

I then spent hundreds of hours listing my web site on every web site I could find that allowed links.

Advertising budget? Laughable ... to non existent!
I spend about $100.00 a year (thats right - thats one HUNDRED dollars!) advertising my foals and mares for sale and Sato, on Equine.com.
Print ads in publications I dont bother with except on a very limited basis, and when I do, it will probably run me a couple hundred dollars - tops.
So - in total between faxes, stamps, envelopes, ads and videos - well under $500.00 a year, but what I dont spend in money, I spend in droves in time to get my name out there.

You also have to identify what market you are going after and ... (This is the REALLY important part!) be certain that there is a real, and not *perceived* need and want for your product.

- What makes your horses so special? In a buyers eyes - not in your eyes?
- What makes people want to spend the time and the money to travel to see them?
- What makes people want to buy them instead of thousands of other similarly priced / targeted / types out there?
- Why would someone buy from you instead of the breeder that is 30 minutes away from them?

You have GOT to be honest with yourself and stand back and honestly evaluate your product. If you were looking, would YOU pay $25,000.00 for your 2 year old?

I have identified a wonderful niche market. I have stated these facts before but for those of you that missed them.

Of the millions of APHA Paints registered, in Juy 2001, there were only 25 or 26 dual registered TB's in the APHA registry. Right now, as of today, that number would probably be about 40-45 - no more. Out of MILLIONS of horses!

The APHA competitors have gone to specialist horses in the different disciplines.

The typical 15hh stock type for reining, cattle classes, halter classes, games, etc and the 16hh+ specialist for Western Pleasure and the English classes.

To get an edge, more and more breeders were breeding their Paints to TB's to get the height, the elegance, the step and the refinement that you simply could never get with a typical Paint. Now - suddenly - these 1/2 TB's were coming into vogue!

The top competitors started taking this a step further and started looking for 100% TB's that also had Paint coloring to REALLY get an edge over the competition and voila! - my market was born.

It is a specialized market, there are VERY few breeders in it, and it is tough to produce these colored foals. Sabino and overo coloring are not homozygous like tobiano's, so when you do produce one, they have a high value and a waiting list of people to buy them.

Add the dilute colors to the equation, and yoiu have a veritable gold mine because no one else is doing it.

So - between me and a handful of other breeders throughout North America, we have the market captured(for today anyhow! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in the colored TB market geared very specifically towards the APHA crowd, even though each and every one of our foals could compete on equal footing with any hunter or jumper bred baby on the "A" circuit.

That is why these foals sell at birth - sight unseen, to fabulous show homes, and are shipped right across the country. Because if you want one, there are simply no other places to go to buy one.

Customer Service? You bet - in droves!
I still stay in touch with everyone that has bought foals from me and has bred to my stallions. Some have become real friends as well as past clients.
If people feel that you truly care about them and THEIR goals (not yours!) they will support you forever and ever.

Hope this helps!

"Spot"

CTT
Jan. 25, 2003, 03:50 PM
Spot you are so cool! I so respect you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. But you learned the hard way how to maximize your needs for a budget. But Im sure you were just like me spending hours upon hour’s educating yourself.

LOL about the emails, I have a list that crashes my computer each time I load it cause it is so big. That’s just the breeding farms and not the seller list. Lets try not to go there. But Ill give you guys a number to look at. In my database I house over 78,000 emails world wide of just breeders related to the H/J, Dressage, eventing, field hunter, Spanish breeds, and breed specific that cater to those mentioned above fields. Hmm so what makes YOUR HORSE BETTER than the other 77,999?

Spot when I said 500 usd I was including if people were to list their horses on all of those 46 sites I mentioned. Im sure keeping the cost down for you was good and now you have your own network but I bet at times you wish you could have found someone to do it for you without ripping you a hole in your pocket.

So if you had to do it all over again would you, if you knew then what you knew now???

Spot
Jan. 25, 2003, 05:51 PM
CTT - if you came to me and said - "I have a data base of 5000 APHA people that might be interested in your stallions and/or foals. For XXX dollars, make me up a flyer that I can send to them - are you interested"?

You bet!

Sure beats plunking away on the keys, going cross eyed trying to keep the email addresses straight as I am entering them in! And looking at the clock realizing its midnight and I still have laundry left to do!

And it was hours and hours, through trial and error, learning what did and didnt work.

If something was legitimately tried and didnt work, then you had to sit back and figure out why and what you need to do to change it so that it DID work.

You know, I have been offered some super nice mares - warmblood mares that are Holsteiner, or a Superman/TB mare cross from people that are interested in trading for stud services, colored foals or mares that are in foal to Sato, and I am really tempted at times because they ARE such nice mares, but then I give myself a slap and say "why". Why argue with success and why get into the same market that so many people are having trouble with right now.

There is nothing wrong,I am sure, with any of the foals that are being bred. They are all perfectly nice foals in their own right, and all could probably go on to useful and productive careers. Some nicer than others, but probably all nice type foals.

But it is sort of like the situation in CA right now with the "2 buck Chuck" (that wine being sold in CA for $1.99 a bottle).
There are SO many people that jumped on the vineyard bandwagon with visions of incredible wealth dancing in their eyes - apparently there are vines growing everywhere, on every single spare scrap of land.
There is now such a glut of grapes and wine, that they need to GIVE the stuff away just to get rid of it. A simple case of overproduction and a market that isnt capable of buying everything that is being produced.

Isnt that - literally - where we are heading with an overproduction of horses?

Dont we need to do a serious reality check and take the necessary steps - now - to make sure that we are not producing products that there is no market for, before we find ourselves waking up one morning with a barn full of horses that we cannot sell?

Do something different to stand out from the competition, and then you will find the buyers are beating a path to your door to buy your product, simply because no one else sells it

"Spot"

CTT
Jan. 25, 2003, 06:34 PM
Spot: If you are useing outlook express here is a helping hand.

When collecting emails:

If you are collecting an email off of a site that is by itself right click and coppy shortcut. Open a new message and paste. If you are useing a list coppy the whole list and paste it to a new message. Close it and save to drafts.

Open the draft folder then right click the email addresses individualy and hit add to address book. You can nail if you do it all day 1,300 emails this way. Just as an FYI

Saves you from typeing and gets addictive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Spot
Jan. 25, 2003, 07:12 PM
Bless your heart CTT - see - you're never too old to learn new tricks!

Thanks a bunch ...

"Spot"

spirit
Jan. 25, 2003, 09:46 PM
This is what is commonly called SPAM. You may end up with more negative press than you planned on.

CTT
Jan. 25, 2003, 10:21 PM
I think Spot said she has had a over all good luck with this method. She did state she has had mostly good responses. I for one will get the "can you change the email for me to this one" but, have out of the lists I run maybe 30 people asked to be pulled. That is all I have had to pull. So I guess, yea at first we might be spamming but as a marketer you must respect people’s privacy and do as they request. I state in the first line to any email “to be removed please request and it shall be done”.

I have had too myself much good luck with this method. One thing though is I know I'm not the only company in this industry using this method. I have had 100's of emails from fellow companies catering to horses asking me for my list. Guess what it has never been sold and never will be sold. Now that is just rude to sell someone’s info.

If you have ever taken a marketing class they actually teach this. It is called prospective client research. Im not going to argue with people about this method but, if you do not like this, then if you ever get an email from a company then tell them to take you off their lists. A simple reply email does wonders to people who physically manage their lists. Most people like me do respect that. When they don't I get upset. As long as you buy on line, post your email, or surf and inquire to a company are you subjecting yourself to spam.

Most of the time when I do send out a mass email I end up getting people to create a network bond. It is my way to find out what they need as a seller at the same time it enables them to communicate with other farms in their area cause I send them categorized to their area. I have had people send me thank you letters for doing such a wonderful gesture. It allows them to build their own networks within their community. I will tell you I have had a massively large group of people ask to be placed on these lists for that purpose. So if they are welcoming it how is it spam? If they want to be on the lists how am I spamming them? Till you can give me a well rounded and well argued post Ill continue but I do know a lot of people might be angry.

Spot
Jan. 26, 2003, 06:12 AM
Spirit - I think there is a lot of difference between sending out an email about an APHA stallion and/or foals to APHA breeders than there is sending out an email about how to enlarge your bust size or penis length to the same group of people.

THAT is spam, in my opinion, and I do believe most people feel the same way.

I get a lot of horse related, miscellaneous type emails sent to me, and in probably 95% of the cases, I am mildy enough interested in that product that I am not offended by having them sent to me. Probably 1 on every 50 or so, I ask to be removed from that particular list.

We also run another business that deals in automotive products, and I have done the same thing targetting members of the BMW, Ferarri, Lotus, Mustang, etc Clubs, and the same sort of response. Probably 10% or so thank me and ask for catalogs, 85% dont respond at all and less than 5% come back and ask to be removed from my list. About the same as bulk mailing.

So - no - as long as you intelligently profile people with the product you are selling, I dont think people view it as spam or are offended by it.

I think the same would work with a hunter or jumper you are selling. If you send an email to hunter/jumper trainers advising them of your horse for sale - would that be considered spam?

"Spot"

CTT
Jan. 26, 2003, 09:35 PM
Spot you said it better than I could have wished.... Now I know who to go to for when I need to fly an idea I have up my sleves.

I think I blew the mind of a fellow BBer when I sent her a link to something she would be interested in and told her, comeing from someone in my line of work, she owed me nothing. At the same time I wasn't going to gain anything from it. I feel that if I can point someone in the direction of fufilling their dreams and give them a hand trying to find something, for me to do in my spare time, that in the future she will recommend me to someone else.

I could have been a pain and said "well if you buy this horse you need to pay me". I do not beleve in that. I beleve in createing a happy person who will remeber me as someone who tried to be kind and polite. Boosting buyers moral is where I find comfort not to mention sellers if I am recommending them.

To me I don't find kicks in just opening my mouth but going out and createing good PR. I stand behing what I beleve in and go out of my way at times.

Ill tell you a story real quick. I had a prospective client one day come see me when Argentina went south. He had lost everything. I put together a plan, went with it and got his horses sold so he had food to feed his family. When it came time to pay me, although it had come up many times before then, I told him to forget it. Im not going to say how much I lost but I don't regreat any moment. Why did I do this? It was because I knew someday I would need a favor or referal to new business. For me it isn't about the money it is about ofering a quality sound service to people.

When I did go there to gather meterial I fronted my own ticket, the film, the tapes, hotel, transportation, you name it. In a time like that I wasn't going to say pay me, when your family needs food, a home to stay in, and clothing. To me that tells alot to others about my work ethic.

Next time someone needs a little help or a word of advice go out of your way to be nice to them. You never know when they might come back to be a client of yours. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jaime
Feb. 2, 2003, 03:41 PM
Yes, the market is not the most brilliant market right now. Its tough out there, trust me....Its hard to find middle range customers, people either want to spend 10K or can spend 150K...the middle range people are MIA!!!! I def. agree with tackpud who said that hte low priced horses are selling and the high priced ones are selling. I think that if you TRULY want to buy one or sell one, the place to go is FL...everything is down there.

DOT....I hear that there ARE NO commissions on leases. However, if I were to lease something out OR be the leasee, I would give the trainer a small commission out of respect. However, I am NO sales pro so I am not sure if this is true or not.