Bush opens up a can of whoop a$$ [Archive] - Page 3

jparkes

Oct. 3, 2001, 05:30 PM

Top Military Commanders Warn of Larger, Global War

John Edwards
Wednesday, Oct. 3, 2001
Two of America's top former military commanders warn that America could quickly find itself in a global war.
In an exclusive interview as part of NewsMax's Presidential Briefing series, Adm. Thomas Moorer and Gen. Jack Singlaub reveal several disturbing concerns about a major escalation in the months ahead.
Their interview, America on the Brink of Global War, is part of NewsMax's Presidential Briefing series.

Both have unassailable credentials. Adm. Moorer served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the nation's highest-ranking military official, and helped bring the Vietnam War to an end.

Gen. Singlaub is former chief of staff for U.S. forces in South Korea. In addition to serving as a field commander, he was also assigned to the CIA and is an expert on unconventional warfare.
Moorer and Singlaub have held combat command positions in World War II, Korea and Vietnam.
Both share the view that the likelihood of a greater war is strong, and fear that if several fronts opened up against the U.S. in hot spots like Taiwan and Korea, the results could be catastrophic for the United States.
"It's not like any war we have been in before, but we have got to have it," Adm. Moorer explains.
Moorer and Singlaub say the nature of this war will require several steps, with the first military moves aimed at eliminating terrorist cells.
But Moorer believes that the war will do the job only if we go after the nations that support terrorism, including Iraq, Iran and Syria.
"I think the war is going to broaden. I think that the president made it quite clear that this is a pure case of good vs. evil and those who want to live in peace must unite and eliminate those who want to kill one another," Gen. Singlaub says.
He adds ominously, "We just have to recognize that it's going to develop into a larger war and there are lots of people and nations involved."
In "America on the Brink of Global War," Moorer and Singlaub make several key points, the same ones they would tell the president if they were in the Pentagon today:
* Focus on the Likelihood of a Bigger War. Both military commanders insist that while they would have Pentagon strategists working to deal with Osama bin Laden, the Pentagon's main focus should be to prevent and prepare for a major war.
Singlaub explains: "We have to be thinking along those lines and not get ourselves committed in one area."

* Possible Flashpoints: Taiwan and Korea. Moorer and Singlaub see these as strong possibilities for the outbreak of a larger war.
Noting the diminished size of the U.S. military, now 40 percent smaller than it was just 10 years ago, a country like China may make a play for Taiwan while American military resources are so focused in the Mideast.
Worse, North Korea may launch its long-awaited invasion of South Korea. More than 30,000 American troops still sit near the Korean Demilitarized Zone, and Gen. Singlaub, an expert on Korea, doubts U.S. forces could repel an armored invasion. The U.S. may have to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop an advance, he believes.
Moorer adds: "This is the whole point � if the U.S. focuses so much strength in one area," one or more of America's enemies may seize the opportunity to attack.

* Oil Kingdoms, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, at Risk. Despite the large U.S. buildup in the Middle East, both commanders believe there is little the U.S. could do to stop Saddam Hussein from invading and capturing Kuwait as he did in 1990. A similar threat exists to Saudi Arabia. Singlaub observed that during the Gulf War the U.S. had five divisions in Germany that were quickly moved to the region, with the air and naval support to move them there.
That isn't true today, he said. By the time we mobilize to prevent an Iraqi offensive, it will be "too late."
Moorer agrees. He thinks U.S. forces could eventually dislodge Hussein, but it would take much longer and the U.S. could expect heavy casualties this time.

* Secure the Panama Canal Now. Both veteran military experts advise the U.S. to immediately secure the Panama Canal. Moorer says the U.S. has no troops in Panama now, and we need to make arrangements with the Panamanian government to ensure there is no interruption of Navy movement between the Atlantic and Pacific.
Singlaub notes that any interruption by terrorists, or by the Chinese company that controls the canal, could have catastrophic consequences for U.S. forces in Asia if, say, South Korea was invaded. Both commanders say in such a scenario even a matter of days could prove critical in preserving thousands of American lives.
"We cannot afford to lose the most strategic waterway in the world to our enemies," Gen. Singlaub says.

I once heard a statemwnt along the lines of..."I'm not sure how the third world war would be fought with, but the fourth would be fought with sticks and stones."

hobson

Oct. 3, 2001, 06:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jparkes:
Anyone on this board thought about buying any guns for self defense?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there is anything a gun would do to save my life if another band of suicide attackers lands a plane on my university office building. I should think that would be akin to having a fly swatter on hand to ward Godzilla off. I would bet that more people end up using their new guns to "defend" themselves against the local Lebanese shopkeeper, or to shoot their girlfriends, than for self defense in the event a terrorist comes knocking on their door.

SLW

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:09 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jparkes:
Anyone on this board thought about buying any guns for self defense? Anyone thinking about buying extra food for storage? How would you care for your horses if war were to break out? Or, do you think this is not a big deal at all?
QUOTE]

I did hear this mentioned on a news show today, being prepared. The guideline was keep things around like you do for any emergency when things could be difficult- like after a hurricane, tornado or major snow storm. A good flashlight, batteries, water, non-perishable goods, first-aid kit etc. The point was that if services became disrupted in your area you want to be self-sufficiant for awhile. Given the climate, with false and real reports of problems/alerts, it does make sense to keep a little supply set aside.

I expect that my sidearms would be used on wild critters that stray to close and cause problems, or look rabid, long before any need for self-defence use, though that is one reason I have them.

Water for horses would be a problem if the supply became contaminated. Again, you could put aside barrels as you do when expecting a hurricane and you have to stay with the horses. My horses drink water from our home's rural water line and if they went bad I have access to a neighbors farm pond.

Maybe don't let the grain get too low before picking up more just in case transportation should be disrupted for some reason.

I think being prudent is a good thing if for nothing else, peace of mind, and that's worth a lot right now.

SLW

slugger

Oct. 3, 2001, 08:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My point is that oral sex has absolutely nothing to do with anything. So why is it that it keeps coming up? Hmm?

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about Clinton. I don't know why people who claim to despise him and his actions so much can't stop talking about them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proving yet again that all people posess different sensabilities, I'm sick of hearing vicious attacks of the political views of other people.

To be frank, I'm sick of politics surrounding this travesty. One of my best friends died at the WTC. As Weatherford pointed out here or elsewhere, that's one friend who brings you soup when you're sick, one friend who picks you up when your car breaks down, one friend who pet sits while you're at a horseshow, one friend who listens when you need an ear/shoulder, one friend who tells you sincerely that you are pretty okay no matter how low you're feeling DEAD 6500 times over.

In the face of such a loss, are political affiliations really important? I don't care what it is that you believe in, the fact that you all believe in something and care about the blow struck, below the belt, against a nation and its people mean far more than which talking head you favor.

The freedom to choose a party to support is not something many people, and even fewer women, have. Perhaps many of us, and the U.S. at large, would be better served if we all meditated over such thoughts instead of drawing derisive lines of sub-categories of government.

Snowbird

Oct. 3, 2001, 08:42 PM

Yes! that has been my point. This is not the time to sit around picking on anyone's personal habits because there are too many bad habits available for picking on.

While this country enjoys the luxury of criticizing our governement, and has the pleasant pass time of making bad jokes about almost everyone. It's time to rally moral and not pull it down.

Point one: When have you ever seen more unselfish and dedicated people helping each other with full understanding of the risks? Isn't it really nice not having everyone calling the coppers "pigs" any more.

Point two: There is nothing this country cannot accomplish when it wants to accomplish something. Look at the firemen who ran into the buildings when everyone else was being evacuated. They wanted to live but they cared enough to risk it all just to help. Who would have believed that people in this letigious society would be willing to make such a sacrifice.

Point three: When the chips are down and the job is tough we can as an American nation do anything we need to do to stay free.

I don't believe the judgments of anyone who says we can't or we won't get the job done, and done the way it should be done is what we stand for and not the pessimistic who concentrate on the half of the glass that's empty.

I take you all back to FDR who whatever the circumstances said "All we have to fear is fear itself". And, Tony Blair who said (just paraphrasing my interpretation) sure we are afraid to defend ourselves but what there is to fear is what will happen if we don't defend ourselves.

Just think Russia is going to give our men a base to work out of, Iran has offered to help. The people of Islam are united with the people of NATO and the United Nations is in full support. This is not just us against them, it's them against the world. I thank God! that we have become sophisticated enough not to mind translaters and we can take speach accents as a sign of friendship in their willingness to join with us. Their efforts to learn our language is a compliment to our philosophies which they wish to share. Each country in it's own way wants the best for their people. We can be broad minded enough to respect them and their ways and their beliefs.

brilyntrip

Oct. 3, 2001, 09:22 PM

No one should feel so badly that their sensitivies get offended . No should feel like taking their game pieces and going home ok?
I would really like Heidi to rethink her voluntary withdrawal.She is at least fun has a sense of humor clever thing that she is!I don't come here to get worked up everytime I come here to laugh or to learn something fun and interesting !
I personally have found certain posts very snotty and condescending but hey I don't have to read it more than once to realize that some people are just snotty and cranky .
I have to be careful or Mary and Heidi will tease me about my bad typing spelling and anything else .

Ilona you really need to calm down ok ? practice DEEP breathing repeat a buddhist mantra or something! In otherwords please lighten up for crikes sakes!Haven't recent events shown us all that life is really too short to be sucked down into this trivial squabbling over what an opinion? ?
Where oh where is Heidi kins ?

Louise

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:52 AM

Actually, I'm going to suggest that everyone who can, try and get a copy of the West Wing episode that was shown last night. I found it an excellent educator. They explained in clear, uncomplicated terminology a lot about the origins and reasoning behind the explosion of terrorism that exists today.

For those of us, like me, who never have claimed to be great intellectuals, who can't spell worth squat and whose bedside table has more than its share of romance novels on it, /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think it could be of great help.

Inverness

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
well guess what?? Bush may have opened a can of whoop a$$ but I have a case of kiss my a$$ in my cupboard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow Jumphigh83! I hope you are taking your blood pressure medication.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Inverness

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:57 AM

finally an idea we can all get behind....
------------------

Killing bin Laden will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will
inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release.
Therefore, a suggestion: we do neither.
Let the Special Forces, Seals or whatever covertly capture him, fly him to
an undisclosed hospital and have surgeons quickly perform a complete sex
change operation. Then we return HER to Afghanistan to live as a woman
under the Taliban.

hobson

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:07 AM

Now THAT would qualify as poetic justice.

hobson

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:14 AM

I am really fed up with being urged to go shopping for the sake of my country, and the following is from a letter I wrote to a number of friends last night...

I think I will throw my radio under the wheels of a bus if I hear another news commentator or elected leader implore the American public to save the nation by getting out there to shop. It has finally happened--the deal has been sealed between the American identity and consumerism. "Don't let the terrorists keep America down: go to the mall, take the kids to Disneyland!" So we are to return to the business of being American: amassing a collection of consumer products. Well for god's sake, thousands of people are DEAD, and countless thousands more are mourning the loss of their friends or family members. The entire nation is wounded. And they want us to buy a new pair of SHOES? I can't believe the crassness it takes to believe that pointless frivolity is an appropriate response to a national trauma.

I would like to think that, now that the country is paying attention to how the rest of the world sees us, and everyone has been very busy singing "God Bless America," this is a fine opportunity to assert an American spirit that is not shallow and vacuous. So the economy needs our help to remain viable and healthy? Here are my suggestions for getting money into the system in life-affirming ways that are a better memorial to the dead and wounded than a bunch of new CD's that nobody really needs:

Promote international understanding by supporting a scholarship fund that helps American students study abroad, or that assists international students studying in American universities. If you can afford it, create such a fund at your local university if it doesn't already have one. Donate to Rotary International. Buy a newspaper subscription for the school library. Get yourself a subscription to a decent newspaper that offers comprehensive coverage of international news.

Make life better for people in your own community. Buy new pairs of nice socks for all the residents of the nearest nursing home. Get gift certificates for your child's teachers. Buy a saddle and bridle for a handicapped riding program. Buy a new computer for the county's rape crisis center or domestic violence advocacy organization. Donate to the community's AIDS/HIV advocacy organizations--they would love to give their underpaid workers a raise.

Remember the critters. Call the animal shelter in your community and ask them what kind of food they use for their rescued animals, and show up at the shelter with a few hundred pounds of it. Buy several big buckets of horse treats for a large-animal rescue organization. Buy a membership to the nearest zoo--your money will pay scientists and naturalists who are doing the important work of preserving biodiversity around the world.

Art is the conscience of a culture. There are many underfunded grass-roots organizations that provide technical assistance to traditional artists--let your money boost their efforts to help marginalized artists get noticed. Donate to organizations like the Shoah Foundation, which is making art out of the stories of Holocaust survivors.

Give democracy a hand by purchasing a printer cartridge and stacks of paper, envelopes and stamps. Write letters to all the state and national-level representatives and senators you can think of advocating for campaign finance reform. Give money to your area's third-party political candidates.

Get the idea? If our wallets are meant to be weapons, let's use them to redefine a nation that is humane, community-minded and forward-thinking rather than a hollow monument of acquisitiveness.

[This message was edited by hobson on Oct. 04, 2001 at 11:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by hobson on Oct. 04, 2001 at 11:42 AM.]

Beans

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:17 AM

I'm completely calm when I respond on this board - I'm just totally committed to supporting the USA against terrorism. Being passionate doesn't mean you are hysterial - and mantras aren't my style. We lived through 8 years of politically correct Bull with Bill and his cast of Far Side Cabinet Members. We ignored the job of government and felt security was un-necessary with the "cold war" over. Well, war rears it's angry head - cold or hot - when we fail to recognize our freedom is something that can be threatened every day by those with minds that don't equate to anything we define as human.

I always feel if you won't sit down and write a letter and sign your PROPER name to the person you are making such nasty statements about ....well then "stifle yourself". It's easy to lob stink bombs and snipey slurs on public officials at all levels anonymously. BUT - IMHO it isn't constructive - you aren't reaching the person you set as your target and it's just plain WEAK. If you believe in it and post it on a BB - well then by golly - sign your name and stand up for yourself publicly. This is, thank God!, a free country.

Duffy

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:22 AM

So long as we're successful in freezing his/her funds so he/she can't go have the surgery reversed!

vineyridge

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:28 AM

Much better than I ever could have.

Duffy

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:31 AM

Wonderfully put, Hobson!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hobson:
I am really fed up with being urged to go shopping for the sake of my country, and the following is from a letter I wrote to a number of friends last night...

.........
Get the idea? If our wallets are meant to be weapons, let's use them to redefine an nation that is humane, community-minded and forward-thinking rather than a hollow monument of acquisitiveness.

[This message was edited by hobson on Oct. 04, 2001 at 11:31 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hobson, that was brilliant,
Betsy in MD

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:36 AM

This is the third time I've agreed with you on this thread.

Scarey....very scarey....

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:51 AM

it is possible to disagree with someone without being condescending and nasty. For instance I'd like to say something like this: Now that we have the threat of WWIII looming (if we don't play our cards right) it appears we need help. We need allies. We need to be FRIENDS with the rest of the world. I wonder if Bush wishes he had been just a little more agreeable a few months ago when he was discussing the Kyoto treaty with Europe. I'm not saying he should have accepted it, but maybe he should have been more like "let's look into a comprimise" instead of "NO WAY; it's FLAWED". Now that's what I'd like to say, but I fear if I do, that instead of an intelligent discussion or arguement, I'll get blasted with things like "It's Clinton's fault!" or "You shouldn't critisize the President now!!" OR "Oh YEAH? Well Clinton had his ning-ning licked; what about that?" or "You're a bleeding heart idiot liberal!" And you know, those kinds of comments put me on the defensive and THEN all I want to do is fight back by blasting Bush. That's not argument; that's not debate. And it's certainly not interesting.
Betsy in MD

halfhalt

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:15 AM

consumerism is not (or should not be) the core belief of any civilized society.

vineyridge

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:23 AM

My tenant in the backyard works for the federal wildlife control program. He has just told me that he and a couple more Mississippi guys have been asked to and have volunteered to go to NYC and help with vermin problems that are caused by the huge amounts of body parts in among the rubble.

It seems that the rats have multiplied exponentially around Ground Zero, and huge numbers of carrion eating birds have flocked to the landfill where the rubble and body parts are being separated.

So he is headed north to help. I'm proud of him, and proud of the federal government for finding their folks with the right expertise even here in deepest darkest Mississippi.

Wohder what NYCers will think of his very, very Southern accent?

Duffy

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:30 AM

Enter another facet of grim reality to this terrorist act. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kudos to your husband, vineyridge! I'm sure the New Yorkers will LOVE his accent! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Inverness

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by IlonaE:
We lived through 8 years of politically correct Bull with Bill and his cast of Far Side Cabinet Members. We ignored the job of government and felt security was un-necessary with the "cold war" over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the issue is not so clear cut. Just one example:

Former Attorney General Janet Reno consistently regarded as "critical work," FBI requests for search warrants re suspected terrorists living in the US. Until September 11th, the current AG, John Ashcroft, routinely denied such warrants or relegated them to the back burner as "non-essential" matters.

Oddly enough, it is Ashcroft who now is being criticized by conservative groups for having been "soft" on crime and for placing the civil liberties of suspected terrorists above the public welfare.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:35 AM

Professor Hobson, concerning PsyOps (sp?) against Al Queda (also probably misspelled...) I'm not certain I fully comprehend what psychological operations would entail. The Wash. Post articles, which Erin so kindly provided links to, discussed the previous administration's work in infiltration of terrorist networks with spys/informants, who were citizens of the same countries as the current members of the terrorist network - in particular, Pakistanis. (But this probably doesn't fit the definition of PsyOps?)

While I am not an expert (I know this comes as a surprise to many of you /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ), it seems that infiltration of all the scattered terrorist cells is the only way to ferret out these people. And yes, getting Bin Laden will not not end it - someone else will take his place. That could provide several decades of work for sex change specialists all over the world. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Preparing for disaster at home? I'll do a little, but mostly because I'll need it for weather emergencies! For some reason, power outages in my neck of the woods tend to last for 2 to 48 hours routinely. The only water supply for me and 5 wimpy equines is from an electric-powered well, so I'm learning to keep bottled water on hand, and the nag trough filled. (Well, they could drink out of the pond, but that would involve getting their dainty hooves wet...)

I am rambling incoherently. Back to one of you smart people.

Sweet Pea

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:38 AM

Vineyridge, you refer to your husband as 'the tenant in the backyard??!!'

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin

Oct. 4, 2001, 10:40 AM

More interesting articles from today's Post. (Washington Post, that is, not that NY rag /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

U.S. May Boost Aid to Afghans (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2370-2001Oct3.html)

You can delete the "may" from that headline, because about an hour ago:

Bush Pledges More Aid for Afghanistan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5048-2001Oct4.html)

Also, a really interesting article about the behind-the-scenes negotiations between the US and Russia:

U.S., Russia Recast Their Relationship (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2528-2001Oct3.html)

And an article about how Bush's doubters overseas are changing their tune... on this issue, anyway:

Bush's Handling of Crisis Lifts His Stature in Europe (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A2138-2001Oct3.html)

Oh, and one more, from Post columnist Richard Cohen... an interesting commentary on how naive many of us, media included, were before 9/11:

The Terrorism Story -- And How We Blew It (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2682-2001Oct3.html)

Pixie Dust

Oct. 4, 2001, 11:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
More interesting articles from today's Post. (Washington Post, that is, not that NY rag /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

You can delete the "may" from that headline, because about an hour ago:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5048-2001Oct4.html

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is GREAT NEWS!
Betsy in MD
The Post is good, but this is where I get my news....here's an interesting article on the fate of the suicide hyjackers: http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Snowbird

Oct. 4, 2001, 11:27 AM

Because of our petty bickering and beating up of our leaders they assumed we were all not very intelligent. Their measure is one of sophistication and good taste, manners and general appearance.

The package is very important to people who make their value judgments based on appearances and perception. They never looked underneath the surface of the "American cowboy". I think too many people don't realize the courage and purpose it took to pull up roots and sail across the pond to this strange undeveloped land between two oceans.

It was the desire for freedom of religion and democracy that powered those ships. Many couldn't understand our welcoming the poor, the helpless and the underprivileged here. They come from a world where judgment was made on who you were related to (i.e, the royals).

I am very proud of the "American cowboy", not just President Bush but all those tough men and women who fought the frontiers and moved west, living in unbelievably difficult times and circumstances they established the rule of law all over this great country. OK! they didn't have much formal education, and they lacked some in manners, and from I've heard they didn't smell really good either from sleeping with their horses but as tough and unpolished as they were they had guts and lots of common sense. Sure they weren't perfect but they have been very much maligned and demeaned by history.

Inverness

Oct. 4, 2001, 11:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Because of our petty bickering and beating up of our leaders they assumed we were all not very intelligent. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting perspective given the tone of some previous posts . . . hmm.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:21 PM

Ever read or listen to any cowboy poetry? Very cool stuff.
Betsy in MD

hobson

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:23 PM

Admittedly, Bgoosewood, every time I hear that Baxter Black guy on NPR, I lunge desperately for the radio to turn it off.

Magnolia

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:23 PM

That was an awesome letter. Please send it to the editor.
I LOVE the way companies keep laying people off, then wonder why people aren't spending. WELL DUH!
I hate it at Christmas when they cheerlead us into shopping with threats of a poor retail season ruining the economy. It's as if if you are a spendthrift, you are down right Unamerican.
I also add:
Please, give us time to mourn this time around. Give us time to get over our travel fears. Would it have been to much to have given us a day off after the bombings to be with our loved ones... and let the people that man the WalMart and McDonald's have a day of reflection too? I felt like an ass sitting in my Quant class on Sept 11 learning about regression for 3 hours knowing a few thousand citzens had lost their lives in this awful ordeal. How many people had to flip burgers, crunch numbers, and be CEO's that day while worrying if indeed, WW 3 had begun?
I realize we had to show the terrorists that they didn't break us into stopping our lives, but would a day or so of reflection been so awful?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Their measure is one of sophistication and good taste, manners and general appearance.
The package is very important to people who make their value judgments based on appearances and perception.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And those sophisticated and tasteful Europeans were quite fond of our previous president, bless their hearts.

Maybe we need to refer to the Nameless Previous Administration by a symbol, so there won't be riots on the BB.

Darn, there goes my vow not to take the bait. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:35 PM

Go Snowbird!

Interesting articles, but my overwhelming reaction to the one on Europe's reaction to Pres. Bush is amazement at how little the Europeans seem to know about the US. Obviously there's a lot more to us than they've gleaned from cowboy and action movies.

BTW, living in cowboy country I can affirm that the vast majority are polite, hardworking, underpaid and underestimated people.

Hobson - why would you enjoy Baxter Black?? You've probably never had a muley cow drop dead in the pen before the auctioneer could get her sold! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:

And those sophisticated and tasteful Europeans were quite fond of our previous president, bless their hearts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheeeee, even Newt Gingrich admitted to having a crush on him....

OH, re: Baxter Black, I'm not real fond of him either, but when I was living in Santa Fe I heard some cowboy poetry and really liked it.

Betsy in MD

Magnolia

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:37 PM

I'm really sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I confess, when I rant about this, I often lose sight of the fact that we lost 6500 people, who were good people, who were likable. (I can always fine something you like about every person, no matter how you disagree with them about certain subject!). 6500 people I could have swapped recipes with, ooohhhed and ahhhed over their baby pictures, talked about dogs with, even just appreciated a beautiful day with.
I hope that some good comes out of their deaths. I hope that from this our society changes some of it's values. I hope that because of this some women in Afghanistan may be liberated and not live in fear of breaking some inane law. I hope that families spend more time together and appreciate one another. I hope that we have more respect for our friends the military men and firemen (maybe even that we give them the same respect we give our sports heroes). I hope we judge our politicians in terms of the good they do for our country, not by speech impediments, personal indiscretions or appearances. I hope our young children see that violence is sometimes a reality, and that what they see on a movie screen or video game should be seen as disturbing, not entertaining. I hope they use this to reduce the violence they may grow into.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Natty Dread

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:39 PM

This is by far the best and most up to date news source on the web:

Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com)
It is my other addiction besides this board. But this place is by far more interesting.

Magnolia

Oct. 4, 2001, 12:44 PM

Natty Dread-
Is that stuff true? The article about the ganja brownies is pretty nutty!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

vineyridge

Oct. 4, 2001, 01:24 PM

An unregenerate liberal, Molly Ivins

Molly's most recent column (http://web.star-telegram.com/content/fortworth/columnist/1956415657.htm?template=articleTemplateID.htm)

Kellybird

Oct. 4, 2001, 02:42 PM

Here, I go, opening my mouth again~

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As a soon-to-be-16-year-old, I suppose I should not understand oral sex <and I just realized how funny my first line of this is, now re-reading the whole thing>....LOL.....but what the heck, freedom of bickering for everyone! And seeing as I am one of the liberally-misguided and morally corrupt youth of America, I will use that right. Now for some nit-picking of my own...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Why would you be embarrassed if he's doing a good job? Is it just that your disappointed because he is not as stupid as you estimated because he has not been merchandised like a package of cookies?

The ability to speak in coherent sentences is now known as merchandising? I have no problem with Bush not being as well-spoken as other people I know, but I do have a problem when people use this as some sort of defense. Like having a higher-than-usual vocabulary or IQ is some kind of handicap...and that being average and mediocre are the new national goals. "Jus 'cause he don't talk like a college perfesser don't mean he's a bad guy!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif KIDDING

...Now, if you want to discuss embarrassment, I was embarrassed by the use the last President had for Cuban Cigars. I was embarrased by his behavior having some little girl

She was 23 or 25, please don't refer to a not-so-bright intern who falls in love with an older man a "little girl." No one held a gun to her head and told her to perform certain activities for him, and if they had, I'm sure she would have leaked that info herself, instead of relying on 'good friends' to do it for her.

under the table licking his personal parts while he was discussing important life and death business of the country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly I don't see how this is more relevant than an accent--<<and if I wanted to get REALLY nit-picky I'd let everyone in on the fact that Bush has a dialect, not an accent--but that's a whole 'nother can of somethin'>>--but if you think so, that's fine. Please don't bother complaining about pettiness anymore, or we may be forced to bring this up again. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for some reasons the Europeans didn't like Bush? No it's not because they are artistic people who appreciate a "package" that Bush doesn't present and Clinton did--and why the preoccupation with the package? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif they disagreed with him on real issues. Just because a group of people--the Europeans in this instance--dsiagree with our leader, it does not stem from their collective shallowness. Perhaps they honestly thought his slashing of the Kyoto accords was a bad move? Maybe they don't find our insane waste of electricity, gas, and other resources so attractive? Maybe they are insulted by the abuse we put our great expanses of land through? Capital punishment just doesn't sit well with their sensibilities? The list goes on. Not saying either side is right, but please don't write off any one who doesn't wave a flag and scream "Proud to be an American" as someone against logic, especially if they don't live here! Europe is not shallow, and I can't imagine that they'd take kindly to be called such.

Also, after all that, I would like to make it known that Fabio is a revolting-looking man who shouldn't have been permitted to share thread space with the likes of the delectable Jude Law. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Warm cookie and milk anyone?

~KBird

Natty Dread

Oct. 4, 2001, 02:52 PM

Magnolia: I gotta tell ya I han not even seen the article regarding the brownies...I thought you were making some kinda smartass remark about my screen name. But yeah I guess it is true: some kids. So where did the Magnolia name come from?

Natty Dread

Oct. 4, 2001, 02:58 PM

Geez what could possibly be next for these people?Ebola-style killer virus sweeps Afghan border
By Tim Butcher in Quetta
(Filed: 04/10/2001)

THE largest outbreak in history of a highly contagious disease that causes patients to bleed to death from every orifice was confirmed yesterday on Pakistan's frontier with Afghanistan.

At least 75 people have caught the disease so far and eight have died. An isolation ward screened off by barbed wire has been set up in the Pakistani city of Quetta, and an international appeal has been launched for help.

Evidence suggests the outbreak of Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever emanates from within Afghanistan, raising fears of an epidemic if millions of refugees flee across the frontier into Pakistan.

CCHF has similar effects to the ebola virus. Both viruses damage arteries, veins and other blood vessels and lead to the eventual collapse of major organs.

As one doctor put it, a patient suffering from haemorrhagic fever "literally melts in front of your eyes".

At the Fatima Jinnah Chest and General Hospital in Quetta, capital of the Pakistani province of Baluchistan, an isolation ward with eight treatment beds and two observation bays has been set up.

Nine-year-old Ismail Sadiq lay on one of the beds yesterday, his body wracked with fever and a wad of cotton wool stuffed into each nostril to stem the bleeding.

Outside members of his family sat anxiously in the shade of a tree. An elderly gentleman worked a string of worry beads through his fingers, but doctors had forbidden all visits.

The only people Ismail now sees are doctors and nurses wearing the complete "barrier nursing" outfit of sterilised hairnet, mask, gloves, gown and overshoes.

Another patient, a 65-year-old man, lay inert on his bed, with streams of dried blood on his chin, nose and tongue. His shirt was also stained heavily with blood.

Dr Akhlaq Hussain, the hospital's medical superintendent, said: "The first cases came in June. There were a number of deaths, but at first we did not know what was the cause."

A number of blood samples were sent to Pakistan's national virology testing centre in Islamabad. They were then sent to South Africa's National Institute of Virology in Johannesburg for confirmation.

Dr Hussain said: "When the results came back we knew we were dealing with Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever." He has compiled a list of all 75 cases, which involved refugees recently arrived from Afghanistan or people living close to the border.

The first known case of the disease was among Russian soldiers serving in the Crimea in 1944 and then among villagers living near the Congolese city of Kisangani in 1956. Not until 1969 were scientists able to isolate the single virus common to both.

Although there have been a number of cases since, the outbreaks have never been as large as the current one.

The doctor said: "We had our first case in Pakistan in the 1970s. It would seem there is a reservoir of the virus in Afghanistan and we are now worried about the possible effects of an influx of many new refugees.

"The virus is carried by domestic animals, and if they come in large numbers with large numbers of animals we can expect many more cases."

The authorities in Pakistan have appealed to the World Health Organisation for additional supplies to help deal with the outbreak, including storage facilities for clean blood plasma and white blood cells which can be used to replace those lost by patients.

The virus is widely distributed in the blood of sheep, cattle and other mammals across eastern Europe, Asia and Africa. It can be passed to man by a species of tick, Hyalomma marginatum, common in the same areas.

If caught in time, CCHF can be treated by replacing enough of the lost body fluids to allow the patient's own immune system to take over and kill the virus.

The facilities at Fatima Jinnah are basic, but the staff are dedicated and brave, treating patients even though there is a high risk of infection from spittle or blood.

2 October 2001: Mud hovels await fleeing Afghans
1 October 2001: UN discovers donkey trains are only way to reach the starving
29 September

Sandy M

Oct. 4, 2001, 03:10 PM

I have new hope for the youth of America.

Viney - YEAH! MOLLY IVINS! MY HEROINE - a Texan who tells it like it REALLY is!!

As for Bubba Clinton - a VERY bright man (a Rhodes Scholar - not a "Gentleman's Cee") . But I have yet to understand the Republican/conservative obsession with those flaws, which I feel had little bearing on his performance as a President. It's certainly their right to trash him for his divergence from their POLITICAL views, but as for the rest....

Well, if EVERY President had endured the media scrutiny he did regarding his personal pecadillos, and EVERY President were subject to impeachment therefor, we would have had very few Presidents in the late 19th and 20th Centuries. Cleveland (or was it Arthur - I'm a little fuzzy here?) had an illegitimate child; Harding had MANY mistresses; Roosevelt had a mistress; Eisenhower had a mistress; Kennedy fooled around - don't know if it reached the formality of a mistress, but there was the one with Mafia connections; LBJ - same thing; Nixon - probably not, but then, who would want to with RMN? *G* At least he nearly got impeached for legitimate, political issues - and oh my did the GOP kvetch and moan he was being persecuted!); Ford, Reagan and Carter were most probably blameless in the personal misbehavior regard, but in another time - back in the 50s, a divorced man could never have been elected President, as was Reagan.

Then we have the pot calling the kettle black with the many Republican Congressmen and Senators whose own little "lapses" were somehow not relevant ("youthful mistakes" - gimmeabreak, the guy was in his 40s!); the charming Mr. Gingrich serving divorce papers on his wife as she recovered from cancer surgery in the hospital, etc.

Nope, I may have issues with Bubba, but I just can't get THAT incensed over Ms. Lewinski. Rueful, disappointed - all sorts of things, but not outraged to the truly incendiary degree Mr. Star and the GOP were (and apparently still are), nor that concerned about his POLITICAL Presidential performance.

Beans

Oct. 4, 2001, 04:14 PM

Bill Clinton had a Rhodes scholarship - he did not complete the program - ergo he is not a Rhodes Scholar.

Hey! If you think Bill Clinton using a cigar to do gynecological exam on a young intern in the OVAL OFFICE is on par with your long list...well you and I use a different yardstick to measure stupidity and lack of self respect.

Duffy

Oct. 4, 2001, 04:39 PM

That post was about THE most distasteful thing I have ever read on the BB. Would you want your children to ever read that??? I certainly wouldn't. PLEASE give your posts a proof for at least that. I've learned to deal with the rest of it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

jparkes

Oct. 4, 2001, 04:40 PM

...two thumbs up for Drudgereport! Newsmax and Foxnews are on top of my list as well. News that won't be broadcast from NBC, CBS or ABC.

Yep, Ebola in Afghan and now Anthrax in Florida. I bet you all didn't know, but a small amount of anthrax costing less than $500 could kill as many people as from a nuclear blast.

Not looking too good "folks"......

SoEasy

Oct. 4, 2001, 04:44 PM

posting as me, not MODERATOR persona ...

do you really believe that long list of previous Presidents who had mistresses, some plural, never ever had sex in the White House/Oval Office/wherever with them?????

how incredible

horsluvr

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:14 PM

So Duffy, where were you when your fellow moderator was considering "what should I do next...maybe oral sex.." (paraphrasing)?? Gynicological exam is disgusting? I fail to see the rational there. This board is a sad statement about the lack of moral character instilled in todays young adult. It is scarey what they consider acceptable behavior. I can't come to these boards anymore. It is too depressing. This Country is doomed.

brilyntrip

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:27 PM

One as I sit at the ole IMAC each day and night I always listen to the latest updates from MSNBC there is no mention of ebola at all!
I kind of wish there were though . Ebola is a very very contagious disease I don't suppose a lil' luck could help us out like a few terrorists contracting this horrible disease.As I say that even I am amazed that I have uttered such a horrid wish for anyone .
TWO Ilona I don't hide out, my name is on my profile dearie !I also don't rant and rave at strangers I don't know.I accept all of the BBers
and their opinions as just that an OPINION I don't have to agree with anyone nor does anyone have to agree with me . Jeez huney lighten up ok?
You are really becoming a serious drag , and since you have nothing but invectives to toss out you don't even inform me you just irritate me . Life is too short to waste energy being irritated by you .
In the future I won't waste my time reading your posts I'll just scroll right past your name .

vineyridge

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:38 PM

The Rhodes Scholarship is awarded for two years. At the end of that time, the scholar has the option of extending for a third year, if s/he wants to obtain an Oxford MA.

Clinton, and a rather large number of his Rhodes class, including Robert Reich, I believe, left after the second year to go to law school. Given that we are talking about the most politically divisive time in modern American history (1968, 69 and 70,) it's no wonder that hopeful reformers would want to come home to start reforming.

Magnolia

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:43 PM

No smart remark's about your name, I thought (from that article and a few others) that the site was like the Onion, a parady!
Magnolia just comes from my name (Maggie) and the fact that I live in the south....
I like the name Natty Dread. Do you have some dreadlocks?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Magnolia

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Like having a higher-than-usual vocabulary or IQ is some kind of handicap...and that being average and mediocre are the new national goals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, Kellybird, you are very perceptive in your youth. Good call!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Duffy

Oct. 4, 2001, 05:50 PM

horseluvr, I had no problem with the phrase/terminology: "gynecological exam" in IlonaE's post. It was what went along with it that I had a problem with. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

M. O'Connor

Oct. 4, 2001, 06:06 PM

Golly sakes, IlonaE! You sure do stir things up--gotta say, that the first few times I missed out on seeing how--I guess I have to confess to not reading each and EVERY post on all 29 pages of this otherwise stimulating and informative thread....but I have to say, I did see the one where you lit into brilyntrip, and took her to task for not signing her NAME??? and I'm wondering where exactly it is we are supposed to be looking for YOUR name out there for all to see??? I must've missed seeing it?????

Now, back on topic--hobson, great post!!

I was wondering, exactly, what it is they want me to buy, that I don't already have, anyway? I mean, I really can't complain--new truck, trailer, horse....I'm buying lots of hay, shavings, feed....food....and new turnouts for the critters....but, I already have a computer, a CD player, a TV, a VCR, a scanner...0% financing is drawing alot of people I know to the car dealerships this week, but I dont' need a car...I guess if I was being really greedy, I could do with a digital camera, but truthfully, I'm not that greedy I guess....so the economy is going to have to recover without me...

Weatherford

Oct. 4, 2001, 06:47 PM

Taliban jet drops cluster-bombs in show of strength
The Independent
October 5, 2001

In what may be the opening shots of the war in Afghanistan, a silver-coloured Taliban jet screeched through the sky and released two cluster bombs. Just missing some mud-brick houses, they exploded in a field, spraying hundreds of steel balls in all directions.

The attack at noon yesterday by the MiG fighter-bomber on the opposition-held town of Charicar, in the front line 40 miles north of the Afghan capital Kabul, was a clear warning from the Taliban government to its enemies. It showed that it still has teeth and is prepared to use them.

If the bombs, taken from old Soviet stockpiles going by Russian markings on the casing, had been released a few seconds later they would have landed in Charicar's packed street market and killed hundreds of people.

As the MiG passed overhead, General Babajan, the commander of 2,000 Northern Alliance soldiers at Bagram airport, was in the wrecked control tower talking to a group of journalists. One end of the airport is held by his men and the other by the Taliban.

Just after the bombs exploded, General Babajan rushed out on to a balcony on the top floor of the control tower and pointed to rising smoke at the foot of the mountains. He said in a surprised tone: "This hasn't happened before." Perhaps equally surprised were his anti-aircraft gunners, who had no time to fire at the jet.

The Taliban have a small airforce, its planes inherited from the old Soviet-backed government. But its aircraft are mainly used for tactical air support for its ground troops and only occasionally against civilians. The jets have not been in action anywhere in the last four days.

Searching for the place where the bombs had landed, I drove back from Bagram, through half-deserted mud-brick villages close to the front line, to the battered town of Charicar. This has changed hands a number of times in battles over the past few years. The buildings on its outskirts are pockmarked with bullet holes and scorched by blast damage.

On a road beside a canal we stopped at a small shop to ask if they had seen where the bombs had fallen. An excited 10-year-old boy called Idi Mohammed said he had seen them both, one detonating on impact and the other half an hour later.

This is not the first time the Taliban have used MiGs to attack this area, but they have not used cluster bombs before. Idi Mohammed, as he showed us the way to the craters, said: "A bomb landed close to my brother six months ago and damaged his brain, so now he is crazy."

After driving over several watercourses, we saw the craters beyond some long-abandoned Russian military vehicles. Around the main craters were smaller ones and hundreds of shiny steel balls glinting in the dust showing that cluster bombs had been used.

Possibly the Taliban pilot had aimed at some buildings a mile away that looked like fortified barracks. If so, cluster bombs, which are designed to kill human targets standing in the open, were a strange weapon to use. Whatever the target, Kabul had clearly decided to send a message to its enemies that the Taliban would not give up without a fight.

There are increasing signs of military preparations in this opposition stronghold at the end of the Panjshir valley. More young men armed with sub-machine guns are in the streets as reserves are called up. As we drove to find the bomb craters, a truck with multiple rocket launchers in the back speedily passed us on its way to the front.

General Babajan said that both he and the Taliban had brought up reinforcements to the front. In Afghanistan, the frontline usually consists of thinly-held forward positions with more troops stationed further back waiting to counter-attack against any breakthrough. Northern Alliance commanders say they are waiting for the US air assault to start before launching an offensive. If they do attack it is unlikely to be a direct assault on Kabul, which would be over-ambitious given their limited military strength. A more probable option is an attack on the town of Taleqon, in the far north, where Taliban supply lines are over-stretched.

But as the bombing run demonstrated, until the US air attack starts, Kabul has control of the skies and still has the means to punish its enemies.

END

Canter

Oct. 4, 2001, 06:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:

I was wondering, exactly, what it is they want me to buy, that I don't already have, anyway? I mean, I really can't complain--new truck, trailer, horse....I'm buying lots of hay, shavings, feed....food....and new turnouts for the critters....but, I already have a computer, a CD player, a TV, a VCR, a scanner...0% financing is drawing alot of people I know to the car dealerships this week, but I dont' need a car...I guess if I was being really greedy, I could do with a digital camera, but truthfully, I'm not that greedy I guess....so the economy is going to have to recover without me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tongue in cheek you may be, but I find Bush's call to economic action to be a serious cry. Speaking as someone who has personally been affected by Sept. 11th in the old paycheck department, the grim reality for many of us is that without a fast economic recovery, those of us working in industries hard hit by this disaster could well lose our homes in the process. So buy that stupid digital camera. Or better yet, invest in something to support your country.

Linny

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:01 PM

They are teasing you about your name. Time to post a picture of that adorable terrier!

BEQS clique. With elbows in!

brilyntrip

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:04 PM

I think what Mary migt be trying to say now is that sh eis stretsched pretty thin now , I lik eher don't like putting things on cedit cards if I can't pay for them .Many of us depend on teaching lessons judging or stewarding shows for income .Many people in the states are cutting way back so don't thrash her OK???

SLW

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:36 PM

Weatherford,

The source of your post states "The Independent". Where/what is that source?

Thank you for sharing it here.
SLW

Natty Dread

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:43 PM

Natty Dread is:
a: The way Jamaicans say knotty dreadlocks
b: A most excellent Bob Marley song
c: The name of my ever so adorable Norwich

I am gonna miss you all so much this weekend I am already starting to shake from withdrawl. I am off to my big Doggy show in Philadelphia. I think on Sat. its at the Devon show grounds. Wish my little girl luck. No computer this weekend so see you all on Monday. TTFN

P.S. No I don't have Dreads, wish I did lord knows I don't shower enough as it is.
P.P.S. Thats not me in the background...phew got that off my chest.

Janet

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:54 PM

is a prominent UK newspaper

Snowbird

Oct. 4, 2001, 07:55 PM

Yes! well I suppose it is a difficult choice for those of you who already have everything you want but my guess is this is a call to get you share voluntarily and get something for your money which is more than you will get from your taxes.

I find it so strange that while you are all so willing to share the government treasury with the terrorists of the world just so they won't make your life incomfortable; but you cannot understand the need to spend to support the growing needs of those devastated by September 11.

Do they still teach sociology and economics in college? The government raises money by taxes and those taxes depend on income. Therefore if you don't spend and you are hiding in your homes guarding your treasures the general tax rate will simply have to go up to make up for what you didn't spend.

I think Hobson's idea is the best compromise possible. Please do go out and buy-buy-buy but then donate those items you don't need to those who would be really grateful to have them. That is truly the American way. Do you really think that Broadway will survive if we all stop going to see the plays because it's just so inconvenient and uncomfortable.

Who do you suppose pays for all that food we are donating to Afghanistan? Didn't you realize that when you pay your taxes you are a true philanthropist. I had the impression that you all were more than willing to pay taxes to support the other countries of the world so they wouldn't be mad at us.

This is a really fun way to pay your taxes, you get to have all the fun of shopping and then unload all that stuff somewhere else so it won't clutter up the house.

OH! YES! Weatherford the bully roars like a lion in the dark but it's really just a boombox and the bully is really a yellow livered coward who can only beat up on women. The peacock struts to show how strong he because he can carry that big tail but that doesn't make it so.

I really must confess I cannot comprehend this reverence for cultists who have declared that every American male is their target. I may find fault with our males, but I wouldn't want to be without them. Who else can we send to war?

Maybe the game the next generation will play will be cowboys and terrorists. The only problem I can see is the Indians were a much more worthy opponent.

Beans

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:08 PM

you didn't read the threads as you admitted - my post to Bryllytip or whatever was in response to a negative direct remark from her about me!! I just believe if you decide to direct a remark at someone you should sign your own name and be proud of your work and let everyone know who you are!!!

Regarding buying things - well you can buy some stock even if it's a little in the companies that stepped forward and gave money to victims of 9/11. Then hold on to it and when the market recovers you will have said thank you to them for their good dead and in the long run you'll probably have a good investment. Companies that do good deeds are usually well run.

Kellybird

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:26 PM

Sandy M and magnolia thank you, you both completely made my day /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

magnolia, I'd love to take complete credit for that comment, but the thought has occurred to me more and more ever since Dubya began his campaign and thanks to Inverness--I believe, who at one point posted an exceptionally eloquent question on why America seems to pride itself on "being good people" and practically attacking intelligence. Why don't we defend the exceptional as well as the normal? It always confused me--at least in our area, gifted education programs are severely lacking, but the school district itself and the general education area is known to be excellent. Why don't we support the brilliant minds we have as well as the average minds? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Anyway, having a long-winded sort of day /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~KBird

Snowbird

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:26 PM

There's no point in replying to people who just don't get it because their only means of judgment is their own interests.

I doubt that there is anyone on the BB that couldn't be located if someone really cared enough. I don't think there is anyone who seriously believes that anyone on this BB is anonymous totally.

I do think these BB's are an opportunity to get some to consider the politically less than correct as a slim possibility. Yes! the world at large buys the package and not the goods. If this were not so they wouldn't be paying $5 for a box of cereal that's only 90% filled. Why pay 5 times as much for a name brand? A chocolate cookie is a chocolate cookie afterall.

Horses are herd animals and as I perceive them most horse people are equally herd animals. Why else would they all flock to huge shows, have their pockets picked by management and be grossly uncomfortable in crowded conditions? Especially when it's so easy to have quality C Shows close to home and be an individual.

Horse people like the horses spook easily at anything new and strange, have great memories but little cognitive ability. They are creatures of habit and migrate as a herd. Either that or the "Borg" are real and they need to be a part of the whole rather than an individual responsible for themselves.

Perhaps we have been invaded and assimulated by the Borg without even knowing that it happened. There are aliens among us.

Heidi

Oct. 4, 2001, 08:55 PM

I am thoroughly disgusted with myself that I'd return to this neverending thread; but find it next to impossible not to comment when such baffling soliloquies are proffered.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Maybe the game the next generation will play will be cowboys and terrorists. The only problem I can see is the Indians were a much more worthy opponent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, next time my children want to play the video games that you earlier denounced as the cause of moral decay among the young, I'll encourage them to go out and shoot some indigenous people. How the hell can you make such an utterly inane statement? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Horse people like the horses spook easily at anything new and strange, have great memories but little cognitive ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you not a horse person, Snowbird? Or are you an exceptional breed of horse person, possessing greater cognitive prowess, resistant to fear, but alas, by your own 'observation', lacking a good memory. You may wish to refresh your memory by actually reading through the posts of hobson, Hey You Nags, DMK, Inverness, Erin, etc., etc.

And must say, to plug the virtuous beauty of 'C' shows, hmmm, lemme see, like the ones that you run?, seems to smack of greater self-interest than anything yet posted on this thread.

Kellybird, you make me so wonderfully proud. I can only hope that my own children will one day possess your great compassion and intellectual curiosity. You're not only a credit to your generation, you're a credit to all.

Finzean

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:02 PM

ding, ding...

Round 2

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

Snowbird

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:05 PM

Way back in the prehistoric 60's I did a talk show for Seaton Hall University. On one program, I interviewed the Director of a Teaching College.

This conversation has stuck with me all these years because I found it so shocking. I thought such a disclosure would cause a revolution but now 40 years later it has come true.

What this lady said was it was her job to teach the teachers how to make everyone mediocre. That the future of the country depending on everyone being in the middle ground. WHY? Beacuse eventually everyone will either be part of a corporation or a union.

For example you don't want to excel in the corporate structure because if you increased production by 7% when 6% was the norm, then you would make the guy who preceded you look bad, and the ones that followed you would have to work too hard.

So, here in the northeast at least, they pull all the bright ones out and put them in a separate class never to be heard from again until they are properly conditioned. Then they take to slow ones and put them in their own group where they can be A Students. Those middlers then are the real class, and if you have a deviant individualist who is not too bright then you medicate them so they will conform.

When I was in grade school classes were not so homogenized. Classes were pretty much in alphabetical order. By fourth grade we had figured out that about 10% of the world was pretty intelligent, and about 10% was pretty slow. And, most of us fit somewhere in between. By eighth grade it wasn't hard to know who was college bound and who would be the tradesmen and salesmen. There was no culture shock for us when we finally got out in the world because there was no surprises in store for us. Now if you are in the F+ group and you've had your little psyche protectd for 12 years as a straight A student when you get into industry it's quite a shock to find out all those smart kids were already there.

Another concept I really liked was those who were in the top 10% were assigned a personal dummie to tutor. The idea was that when God passed out brains you got extra and the ones you got might have been theirs. So being smart had nothing to do with your quality but the luck of the draw and therefore you owed it to help the other guys who got short changed.

We didn't have dunce caps or make anyone feel stupid. But it was a reality check and we didn't have all these bazaar pychotic excuses for bad behavior, you were either right or wrong and no one else was to blame.

So to answer you Kellybird, no we don't reward excellence we punish it as non-conformity. We punish success because it is non-conforming. Look at the tax rate! If you're very successful and work hard and build a business that employs lots of people, you don't get credit you get a boost in taxes. If you accumulate a nice estate for your children the government wants half just because you died.

If you have a fancy car some poor soul will jump in front of it because they know you're insured. If you wear jewelry and furs you will probably get mugged unless you hire a body guard. If you have nothing then there's nothing for the children to fight over so they actually get to act like brothers and sisters. And then there's the fact that whatever you give isn't considered enough because you can afford it, so you don't even get a thank you. Your help think they're underpaid because they don't live as well as you.

Can you imagine how sad it must be for someone to know in their heart that people are not nice to them because they care but because they want something you can give them.

There used to be an old saying I was taught at my mother's knee, people will give you their hand and help you to get up when you're down and out, BUT when you're on your feet again, they'll try to knock you down again. Think about it!

elizabeth

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:06 PM

<<elizabeth peeks around the corner, cringing. it's like when somebody hits a deer on the highway - you don't want to look b/c it is too ugly. . . yet there is something that makes you want to look. . . . >>

rockstar

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:29 PM

This really shows me what happens when I stop checking the boards religiously.

When I left work last Friday I thought this thread was dead. Little did I know!!!

First off, I would just like to say how much I have loved reading this thread (despite the fact that it took me an hour). I have learned so much and found so much of it thought provoking. So many people have so many good, interesting things to say.... please keep saying them! And Heidi... please come back!!!

Naturally, some of the posts made me rather ill. But then I realized, hey... dummie... just don't read them! So, I stopped reading the posts of those who only wish to complain, patronize, congratulate themselves, slam other opinions and piss off others who don't also sit on lofty pedastools. There are three posters who pat one another and themselves on the back repeatedly, perhaps it is because NO ONE else here agrees with them or wants to hear what they have to say. So, I've turned a deaf ear to their words and, several pages ago, stopped reading what they had to say. It makes the thread a lot more enjoyable... I recommend that everyone else do it to... and if you can't stop reading what they write, then at least don't feed the fire and reply and give them that recognition. I made that mistake and won't do it again.

As has been established, we all have the right to speak out and state our opinions. It's a great thing really. We can't stop anyone from writing what they will, but we CAN ignore what they have to say and refuse to acknowledge it.

2) NOW, secondly, let's get some very important facts straight people! Heidi, your dead-on informative posts went horribly wrong with that Fabio bit. I mean duh, he was hit with a GOOSE, not a pigeon!! And it was not years ago, it was actually quite recently. Yep, lovely Fabio was doing a promotional event at Busch Gardens Virgina and was on a roller coaster when a goose flew smack into his forehead! The goose died. Dear Fabio was hospitalized, but lived to tell the tale on Jay Leno... thereby causing my roomate and I to basically pee ourselves from laughing so hard.

3)Hobson, you also succeeded in making my roomate and I laugh hystericaly with your Flying Ticket Counters posts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif SO funny!

Speaking of National Airport, though, it was pretty eery to see the planes flying above DC again today. My neighborhood, Foggy Bottom, is right next the Potomac and a hop down the river and across from Reagan National. I had become so used to constantly hearing and seeing the planes flying in and out. I never could have imagined before September 11th that a shiver of fear would run through me every time a plane flew close above. When I was on the Hill today I was relieved to find that the planes are no longer allowed to fly above the Capitol. I hate that I felt relieved though, you know? I hate that I now have that fear. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It makes me unable to imagine what it must be like for people in countries like Isreal and the Balkan states who have lived with the fear of attack all of their lives.

3)Charis & SLW- could not agree with you more about Tony Blair. His speech the other day was just amazing. The transcript posted doesn't do the speech justice... you had to have heard it delivered to have it touch you the way it touched me and so many others. It gave me so much comfort to hear how devoted he is to rooting out this evil and how compassionate he is to what so many thousands, indeed, millions, have suffered. Like so many other politicians in this crisis, PM Blair has really shown what leadership means.

To the people who have criticized his domestic policies. I definitely have not been following his domestic policy making enough to provide a credible counter-argument. I spent a few months, however, working for the international polling firm (based in DC and London) that handles PM Blair's polling. And what I CAN tell you is that those who disagree with his policies are in the minority... on nearly all issues he has scored some of the highest public opinion numbers ever seen for a Brittish leader in times of peace.

Whoever said he was attractive though... have to disagree on that front- those ears... those teeth! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

4)DMK and Heidi and Hobson- I loved your "epics"! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

5)Muley- It may be true that Jefferson, wasn't a great public speaker. But you can not measure a modern president by relics of the past like Jefferson. They didn't have to cary out their presidencies in front of a telivision camera. Today's standards are 100% different. It's not enough, anymore, to just be genius.

6)Louise- SO right about the West Wing! Last night's episode was wonderfully clear and informative. When I watch the West Wing I want to marry my TV.

7)Hobson, I definitely enjoyed your letter and see where you are coming from. The opression of consumerism lately has been pretty overwhelming. However, I totally agree with CandadianCanter and her post about jobs being effected. Behind every DVD player is a job, several in fact. You don't buy that DVD player and those jobs are lost. It's not your fault, of course. But I don't think it pays to so easily pass off the notion of buying goods as a means of supporting the economy. Ther has to be a happy medium between doing all of the good deeds you mentioned in your letter AND going out there and doing your part to keep the economy propped up in the short term.

How does one explain their unwillingness to buy into consumerism to the thousands who are getting laid off? It's very good to do your good deeds through charity giving, but the need for charity only increases dramatically if we don't fill the demand that once existed for goods and services. To know have the highest unemployment rate in 9 years is one scary, scary fact. My graduating college class is heading into the worst job market in decades. I can't tell you how many 20-something friends I have in financial services (and many other sectors) who walk into work every day now expecting to be laid off.

Hobson, have you ever seen the documentary Roger and Me? I had to watch it the other day and I thought of you because the producer is a Naderite. It is very good, all be it depressing. It is about the producer's struggle to interview Roger Smith, the former Chairmen of General Motors, after GM closed it's plant in Flint, Michigan. It brilliantly chronicles the fall of Flint and the sociological impact. It has made me think a lot about lay-offs and the devestation that results.

Whew. That was a lot.

PS... I apologize for my horrible spelling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message was edited by rockstar on Oct. 05, 2001 at 12:41 AM.]

Snowbird

Oct. 4, 2001, 09:31 PM

It's so much more amusing when you vent your vitriolic prose. I do enjoy your vehemence. It's so much better to have an opinion, any opinion than no opinion at all.

Cowboys and Indians was as American as apple pie, back in the days when there was no TV and rarely a radio. Shoot all there was for music was a wind up victrola. A wonderful make-believe thing played outside in the fresh air, usually with sticks at best. By the way have you ever had the chance to play hopscotch ot jump double dutch ropes. That was our most favorite thing for girls.

Everyone had the opportunity to be on either side it wasn't selective certainly not as violent as todays hockey or football games. I don't think anyone ever thought of the Indian side as "indigenous natives" but rather worthy equal opponents. It was a way to build social experiences learning about each other and if you could play together then you would work together.

It was an opportuntiy to vent excess energy and pretend wars. No guarantee who would win, but rarely an injury in sight. I find that much healthier than children spending endless hours playing all those games where the sole function is to kill or anniliate the opponent which is OK! because it's not real.

It's so funny how times change isn't it? Now, my grandchildren know that a grandmother like me would never buy them any part of one of those beastly games that blur the difference between make-believe murder and reality.

And yes! I am a horse person guilty of the same traits I think we all have to share, willing to admit my weakness and flaws. By careful study and analysis I have concluded the above and found very few horsemen who didn't laugh and agree I was right.

As to the C Shows, I am aware that most here on the BB are not within range of my shows and I have always carefully avoided any effort to advertise.
I do however appreciate the commercial from you, since it is not self glorifying that way and it does confirm that you certainly are well aware of who I am and therefore I cannot be attacked for being nameless.

I hope you will not begrudge me the pleasures of enjoying life out of the lofty circuits of the elite. I've been there and done that and find it not very satisfying for my tastes. If you enjoy it then by all means I would not criticize you. Not many have the calling to give up all to pursue a dream. I myself prefer the compaany of dreamers at the lower ranked shows than the egocentricities of those who always want more winning at any cost.

rockstar

Oct. 4, 2001, 10:12 PM

Bedside books. I ADORE reading in bed! One of the best things on earth as far as I'm concerned!
Granted, not riding anymore allows for a lot more time to do such things as read in bed. I definitely believe you are what you read and you DO learn a lot about people by what they have around them to read (if they read at all).

I have, for some reason, turned into a nonfiction girl lately. However, I can't deny that I do allow myself a little trash reading every now and then... hello Nora Roberts and Harlequin (sp?) romances! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

By my bed now, however, are (I read several books at once, rotating around... which might explain why it takes me so long to finnish... grrrr!):
-Tom Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive tree"
-"Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"- by JFK aides Dave Powers and Kenny O'Donnell (Kevin Costner's role in 13 Days)... this a MUST read for JFK fans or dorks like me with a big interest in the Cuban Missile Crisis. I don't think they sell it anymore though. Mine's from the library and way overdue.
-Stephen Ambrose's new one- "The Wild Blue"- The Men and Boys who Flew B-24's over Germany- I've temporarily ditched the others to focus on this one- it's hard to put down! There is no WAY Mcgovern would have lost if he had talked about his war record more. No way.
-"The Next Generation"- Andrei Cherny- Andrei is one of the smartest people of my generation and I'm priveldged (sp?) to call him a friend. He lays out a blueprint of the future of politics in the information age and I am reading his book for a third time. There's no doubt in my mind that his name will be a household one someday.

DMK... PLEASE start a topic on this!!! I love hearing what everyone reads!

Kryswyn

Oct. 4, 2001, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Snowbird:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't think anyone ever thought of the Indian side as "indigenous natives" but rather worthy equal opponents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh GIVE ME A BREAK /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

The Indians were always the bad guys - worthy opponents my a$$!! How many B Westerns or 50's TV shows showed the American Indian other than: a) a savage, unable to learn/speak English (although the white man scout always managed to learn enough Souix, Cherokee whatever to be able to translate /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ); b) a shifty drunken bum; or c) a sneaky dastardly coward who made off with the Cavalry's horses in the night from the *gasp* offside!!!!

And your comment about violence???? What were those 'cowboys' doing to those 'Indians' back in your youth? Why YES, I do believe they were practising KILLING THEM with toy cap guns and dodging the rubber tipped arrows the 'Indians' lobbed back at them. Good grief Snowbird, this is where you need to remove the rosecolored bifocles when you look back on your childhood.

EVERY GENERATION PREPARES ITSELF FOR BATTLE IN CHILDHOOD. Yes the world is more violent now, but not because of video games. It's much wider spread than that. Today's children will drop bombs and fire missiles, rarely hearing the sound of their victims dying. JUST LIKE ON THE VIDEO GAMES THEY'VE PLAYED! When a cowboy or Indian took an arrow or bullet, they clasped their wound, moaned, and dropped to the floor. Admit it, wasn't one of your friends REALLY good at the death scenes and everyone would stop play and watch as he lay twitching /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Guns were what children EXPECTED to see on the battlefields where (until Desert Storm) every war was waged largely by infantry.

Whether you realize it or not, today's children are preparing themselves for battle with the weapons they will use in the 21st century: COMPUTERS!

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Louise

Oct. 5, 2001, 03:42 AM

You still have that one non-horse topic from the thread killer opus.

A thread on what people are reading might be very interesting!

Good idea rockstar!

Canter

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rockstar:

How does one explain their unwillingness to buy into consumerism to the thousands who are getting laid off? It's very good to do your good deeds through charity giving, but the need for charity only increases dramatically if we don't fill the demand that once existed for goods and services. To know have the highest unemployment rate in 9 years is one scary, scary fact. My graduating college class is heading into the worst job market in decades. I can't tell you how many 20-something friends I have in financial services (and many other sectors) who walk into work every day now expecting to be laid off.

[This message was edited by rockstar on Oct. 05, 2001 at 12:41 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And sadly it's about even more than that. It's called going about your business as if September 11th didn't happen (of course exercising more caution with every day suspicions)

I don't know if some of you realize the far reaching effects this enforced economic downturn is already having. Even up here in Canada there have been massive layoffs linked to these terrorist acts. The ripple effect from the airline, travel and financial industries to industries such as the automotive, tech, and even the entertainment industry is much broader than any would suspect.

On September 11th I watched my job prospects dry up in less time than it took CNN to set up their live feed in NYC. My industry was already staggering under a sluggish economy. This event has just proven to be the death knell on an industry already sensitive to the ups and downs of economic erruptions. But little did I know that a mere 3 weeks later my husband's industry would be threatened as well. Cancelled business from US clients - an unwillingness to travel - taking a wait and see attitude towards spending money. It's about even more than buying yourself a luxury item. It's about attitude. If North Americans allow themselves to be cowed by these terrorist acts then the terrorists win. Regardless of what economic aid packages come out of the White House it's up to each and every one of us to be BRAVE. We need to move boldly into the future: in our business decisions as well as our personal decisions.

I'm surprised that so many would rather resort to name calling rather than face this devistating repercussion. This community in particular. I'm not picking on anyone, it's just that so many on this board have to much. And they complain and exhibit a kind of NIMBYism that's rather disheartening to me personally. Owning a horse and riding is a prividelige. One that could be taken away from you in a blink of an eye. On a positive note, those that can afford to continue spending their dollars in the equine industry are certainly doing their bit. But it's not enough. Bravery comes with a huge price tag attached. It cannot be measured in dollars, it is a risk that cannot be measured. But by continuing to support the economy you are taking a brave step - rather than burying your savings in the sand. But please, rather than resort to taking your fears out on your neighbour, pull together and be brave. If not for your own sake, for the sake of each and every one of us who face a dark and difficult future because of terrorism.

Apologies for spelling ... I'm having a dyslexic day.

[This message was edited by Canadian Canter on Oct. 05, 2001 at 08:30 AM.]

[This message was edited by Canadian Canter on Oct. 05, 2001 at 08:33 AM.]

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:35 AM

Awwwwwwwwwww what a cute puppy dog!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:40 AM

People just might be willing to spend if the didn't see their coworkers being laid off left and right. Our joblessness rate is at its highest in 9 years.
If you have a job that you make say, $30,000 a year, you probably don't have huge savings, not a lot of stock, and likely won't get a big severence package. Unemployment pays @ 50% of what you make for 6 months, the job market is tight. That person is going to just be trying to pay their mortgage or rent. That isn't selfish, it's common sense.
For the still employed coworker, you become nervous that you are next. You decide your beater of a car has a few years left, and sock away some money lest you are next.
It's pretty common sense. What do people think, with so many jobs being cut people are going to go out and spend $$$$ in their free time?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

M. O'Connor

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:50 AM

Whatever IlonaE--my name appears in EVERY post, because my screen name is my name, so....I guess I still don't get it--far as I can see you've thrown insults far and wide and not your name in sight...Snowbird, I'm happy to have you explain to me in detail the things I just don't understand, and I agree that without an effort to see things from different viewpoints, minds simply cannot be moved---I respect immensely your ability to remain here and continue to give us the benefit of your perspective; longevity and the abiltiy to impart wisdom to those who are more youthful is a wonderful quality, but as I've stated before, I don't appreciate being patronized in a condescending manner, and I don't imagine others do either...

As for those who are worried about my budget--well, thanks....It isn't really that bad, but partially so because I've never had any compunction about slamming down the hatch on the money box when reserves sink below acceptable levels...what with the new truck and trailer this year, I really think I have already made my contribution to the economic engine!

The thing is that economics is a baffling and inexact science--efforts to control economies are wont to have unforseen consequenses that stymie the experts time and time again...sure it makes sense that if we all stop spending, the ripples will spread and people who make the things we aren't buying will eventually lose their jobs...yet, if we overextend ourselves and then have the bad fortune to experience a subsequent drop in income, we might find ourselves in really hot water. Terrorists aside, the economy was not in great shape going towards the end of the summer--economists in government and media alike were scanning the horizon for any sign of an impact from the tax rebates most received in July and August. There wasn't much in evidence--either people were banking the rebates, or paying their bills; they weren't flocking to the malls...capital markets were already softening in response to the burst dot.com bubble. When times at home are tough, or to in good times to safeguard against the impact of a softening domestic market, it makes sense for a country to look past its borders and see where else it can do business--this is the logic that led to the creation of the European Union, and NAFTA. This is an area that has been the subject of extensive debate among American workers--who, no matter what wages they believe that they are entitled to (or may need to earn to keep pace with the cost of living here in the USA) are nearly always basing purchasing decisions based on issues of price and quality (lowest price for the highest quality)...thus, the tendancy of manufacturers to close up shop here and produce goods in countries where labor costs are low....until labor costs worldwide strike a balance, production will always shift to locations where costs are lower...and there is a long way to go before wage equity is acheived. Just notice, next time you are out in the mall, where each item on the shelf is manufactured, sewn together, or assembled...The US economy is now driven far more by the service sector than by manufacturing--you actually have to think a bit to decide how to go out and buy an item that will actually have an impact on US jobs.

The importance of levels of political and economic stability in far flung areas of the world becomes more evident when one considers how intertwined the economies of all countries have become. The debts of countries struggling with poverty and backwardness is also a factor that drags at the rest of the world economy--check out the Jubilee 2000 (http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/index.htm) website to explore the subject of 3rd world debt from the point of view of those who are trying to persuade Western governments to forgive debts and their reasons for doing this.

Re books--bedtime reading is a fantastic pastime--I vote we elect DMK to lead us in an Oprah-style reading club; winter is coming, short days long nights--we could enrich our minds beyond all reason through the COTH who would have thought it?

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So, here in the northeast at least, they pull all the bright ones out and put them in a separate class never to be heard from again until they are properly conditioned. Then they take to slow ones and put them in their own group where they can be A Students. Those middlers then are the real class, and if you have a deviant individualist who is not too bright then you medicate them so they will conform.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OMG, Snowbird, I do believe we have agreement on this one!!!!!! Yup, if they don't fall into line, hit 'em up with the Ritalin (which is as bad of a drug as illegal cocaine). Yup, just say no to drugs, by the way Timmy, time for your pill. Poor kids. Then, when they get to college (anyone can get into a state college), they can't do basic algebra or make a graph without having their hands held.
I truly do not blame the kids, or not really even the parents or the system. It seems like we spend too much time patting them on the back and don't challenge them enough. It really is good enough to be mediocre in school. Everyone wants A's, but want an easy A. I'll never forget the parent who complained to my mom. Apparently, a 4 page (hand written, big line paper, include a picture) "research paper" on a topic such as Micheal Jordan or horses was too much for a 6th grade HONORS english class! Mom and Pop complained, and henceforth, no more paper for the class.
Sorry for being totally off topic!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Inverness

Oct. 5, 2001, 06:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kellybird:
Here, I go, opening my mouth again~

Now for some nit-picking of my own...

Quote: "Originally posted by Snowbird:
Why would you be embarrassed if he's doing a good job? Is it just that your disappointed because he is not as stupid as you estimated because he has not been merchandised like a package of cookies?" Endquote.

_KBird Reply: The ability to speak in coherent sentences is now known as merchandising? I have no problem with Bush not being as well-spoken as other people I know, but I do have a problem when people use this as some sort of defense. Like having a higher-than-usual vocabulary or IQ is some kind of handicap...and that being average and mediocre are the new national goals. "Jus 'cause he don't talk like a college perfesser don't mean he's a bad guy!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif KIDDING_

Quote by Snowbird "...Now, if you want to discuss embarrassment, I was embarrassed by the use the last President had for Cuban Cigars. I was embarrased by his behavior having some little girl." Endquote

_KBird Reply: She was 23 or 25, please don't refer to a not-so-bright intern who falls in love with an older man a "little girl." No one held a gun to her head and told her to perform certain activities for him, and if they had, I'm sure she would have leaked that info herself, instead of relying on 'good friends' to do it for her._

As for some reasons the Europeans didn't like Bush? No it's not because they are artistic people who appreciate a "package" that Bush doesn't present and Clinton did--and why the preoccupation with the package? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif they disagreed with him on real issues. Just because a group of people--the Europeans in this instance--dsiagree with our leader, it does not stem from their collective shallowness. Perhaps they honestly thought his slashing of the Kyoto accords was a bad move? Maybe they don't find our insane waste of electricity, gas, and other resources so attractive? Maybe they are insulted by the abuse we put our great expanses of land through? Capital punishment just doesn't sit well with their sensibilities? The list goes on. Not saying either side is right, but please don't write off any one who doesn't wave a flag and scream "Proud to be an American" as someone against logic, _especially_ if they don't live here! Europe is not shallow, and I can't imagine that they'd take kindly to be called such.

~KBird<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kellybird, you are a remarkable going-on-16-year-old. Your perceptiveness, rational outlook, and open-mindedness show through your every word. Truly, I think your post demonstrates that going-on-16 intelligence and compassion is often superior to the geriatric variety.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 06:49 AM

and state that Fabio makes my skin crawl (and not in a good way) and Jude Law is the cat's pajamas!!

Betsy (in Md)

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:05 AM

why are you so mean?

Betsy (in Md)

Miniwelsh

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
posting as me, not MODERATOR persona ...

do you really believe that long list of previous Presidents who had mistresses, some plural, never ever had sex in the White House/Oval Office/wherever with them?????

how incredible<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts EXACTLY. Having worked at firms with numerous attorneys who have advised past presidents, I can say with certainty that there was plenty going on in the Oval Office throughout the years...the press just didn't have the access to it that they do now! Were Marilyn Monroe alive today, she would have plenty to tell.

Kellybiard - your post was wonderful. I have to laugh every time I hear how poor Monica was coerced and abused. Please. We are pretty much the same age, and I think I would have a little more common sense and self respect than she did. Not to mention a bit more decorum /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That said, I must say that I think the Bushie has chosen his advisors well and is doing a good job throughout this ordeal. Our country has allies we never had before. The recession was something that I automatically assumed would come on when a Republican stepped into office, having lived through his father's term while my father tried to run a small business.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Canter

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
People just might be willing to spend if the didn't see their coworkers being laid off left and right. Our joblessness rate is at its highest in 9 years.
If you have a job that you make say, $30,000 a year, you probably don't have huge savings, not a lot of stock, and likely won't get a big severence package. Unemployment pays @ 50% of what you make for 6 months, the job market is tight. That person is going to just be trying to pay their mortgage or rent. That isn't selfish, it's common sense.
For the still employed coworker, you become nervous that you are next. You decide your beater of a car has a few years left, and sock away some money lest you are next.
It's pretty common sense. What do people think, with so many jobs being cut people are going to go out and spend $$$$ in their free time?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Magnolia, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you at all. But the content of your post is exactly what alarms me. I'm not talking about people going out and wantonly spending money in their free time.
For example there are always going to be people who can afford to travel. But instead of cancelling their Christmas vacation out of fear, scale it back ... one week instead of two. A three star hotel instead of a five. Rather than not show at all this winter, plan on a few shows if you can afford to. If you need to travel for business now don't put it off until the Spring. Get on that plane and go.
I'm not trying to single you out Magnolia, it's just that the image your response invokes to me personally is one of Magnolia patrolling her borders, ready to shoot anyone who would dare come begging for a penny or a crust of bread. Now, that's a very harsh observation - and admittedly I am overreacting more than just a tad. I'm afraid and trying to be brave in the face of a tornado. But economic NIMBYism is going to prolong this dark period, and I wonder, just wonder if your opinion would shift just a little if you were in my shoes. But that's entirely retorical and therefore pointless. I certainly hope that you never have to experience what it's like to lose horse, car, savings and home all because of bad luck, bad timing or terrorism.

BTW - Unemployment insurance in this country has a cap on it - even if you made $150,000.00 a year, the most you can expect to collect is $378.00 a week, roughly $1,500.00 a month for only 26-32 weeks I believe. But it's better than nothing even if, for most Canadians living in a city without rent control, the average rental is $1,500.00 a month. Too bad they've gotta eat too.

SLW

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Inverness:

Kellybird, you are a remarkable going-on-16-year-old. Your perceptiveness, rational outlook, and open-mindedness show through your every word. Truly, I think your post demonstrates that going-on-16 intelligence and compassion is often superior to the geriatric variety.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or is a case of a well spoken young woman who lives in a home where her parents vote for Democrats?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You know how children mirror their parents.

Were my 17 year old here posting she would be, like I, standing side by side with Snowbird. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ditto my father who is but a year younger than Snowbird.

SLW

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:25 AM

that Hobson said to still spend money, just more altruistically and not selfishly.

Betsy (in MD)

halfhalt

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:32 AM

at the risk of being accused as one of those people who are always patting other people on the back (i confess, i do do that from time to time, simply because i am often impressed at how well-articulated these bb comments can be and i couldn't express it half as well myself, so why not pat someone on the back?!)...anyway, here i am patting you on the back for a very intelligent comeback re the European perspective on Clinton and Bush.

And as for Fabio, i have to agree with you, he doesn't turn my crank either, even though at 48 and hence 3 times your age, i am officially an old geezer....!

Inverness

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:37 AM

SLW, I'm willing to give Kellybird the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is quite able to think for herself without resort to mimicry.

I don't believe that adherence to a familial set of principles is necessarily a bad thing, so long as each individual forms his/her opinions after much personal and independent reflection, consideration, and study. Following blindly the political, social, and moral views of those who exert influence over us is not an admirable or desirable trait in a free-thinking society.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SLW:

Were my 17 year old here posting she would be, like I, standing side by side with Snowbird. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ditto my father who is but a year younger than Snowbird.

SLW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that is sad indeed. I have to defend Republicans here and say that there are indeed nice and intelligent people who can take part in a conversation, debate or argument without resorting to pettiness or downright MEAN comments who are Republicans. I just haven't seen any in this room (yet).

Betsy (in Md.)

halfhalt

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:47 AM

about Kellybird's post being her own? Heck, given my experience as both a daughter and a parent, i'ld never for one moment assume that what a teenager expresses is an echo of her/his parents' views...! That's a tad insulting to kellybird and other teenagers on the board.

Duffy

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:53 AM

bgoosewood, I guess you didn't notice that I was a Republican. I guess that's a good thing? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are a few of us on the BB who don't feel they must...errrr....post like some of the other Republicans. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif How's that for diplomatic!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Even though I'm a voting Republican does NOT mean that I can't have non-republican beliefs and approaches to life. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Duffy

Oct. 5, 2001, 07:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by halfhalt:
about Kellybird's post being her own? Heck, given my experience as both a daughter and a parent, i'ld never for one moment assume that what a teenager expresses is an echo of her/his parents' views...! That's a tad insulting to kellybird and other teenagers on the board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - My daughter felt she couldn't agree with me when she turned 4 1/2!!! How's that for "advanced"! LOLOL

We are lucky and blessed by having so many incredibly intelligent and articulate young people on this BB. THANK YOU!!! (And that includes Kellybird - BIG time!!! You go girl!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 08:05 AM

After I posted, I realized that there are probably plenty of Republican posters participating who are indeed cordial......what's that saying? Squeaky wheel gets all the attention?

Betsy (in Md.) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Louise

Oct. 5, 2001, 08:14 AM

We have many bright and articulate young people on these forums, who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions on many matters.

Cripes, for that matter, when I was Kellybird's age, the last thing I wanted to do was agree with my parents!

Those of us who have been here for a while have watched Kellybird grow and mature into a wonderful young person (not that she wasn't a wonderful younger person too /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

You just keep on being who you are Kellybird!

Sandy M

Oct. 5, 2001, 08:37 AM

but didn't complete the third year in order to enjoy the right to be called a "Rhodes Scholar" means he is NOT intelligent (and more intelligent than Dubya)? Well, THAT's logical!

And your rather vulgar expression of distaste for Mr. Clinton's personal pecadillos seems to come down to a moral stand that Presidential illicit sex is OKAY as long as it is the type of sex of which you approve (presumably missionary position only) and doesn't happen within the precincts of the White House? That is, a succession of presidential mistresses over the last 100 years is just fine, - since you obviously must have information regarding the when and where and what kind of relationship all those other presidents had and it's okay with you - but Bubba, unlike them is particularly reprehensible. Talking about splitting hairs~! ROFLOL

I think you need to do more research. I think there are other presidents than Clinton about whom you can become outraged. Seems I recall that FDR's mistress was once his "social secretary" or some equivalent thereof, and there definitely were tales of women being smuggled into the White House for JFK. Why save all the vituperation for Bubba?*G*

Heidi

Oct. 5, 2001, 08:38 AM

Damn the politicians and their political stylists for forcing upon us a polarization on the basis of party affiliations; and creating in the ethos of the culture such sharp rancour.

And damn those who can't recognize people for how they are without the need to denounce them as tree-hugging democrats or gun-toting republicans.

The older I get, I probably veer a bit further from our equivalent liberal party and take a small step closer to the progressive conservatives. Am I proud of that? Not particularly. Am I ashamed, not that either.

At times like this, I return to the feminist dictum that the 'personal is political'. It's how one conducts oneself and treats others that defines politics, in my mind. To that end, the greatest political statement that I need make is to raise three wonderfully compassionate, intelligent, and literate children.

DemonMare

Oct. 5, 2001, 08:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
SLW, I'm willing to give Kellybird the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is quite able to think for herself without resort to mimicry.

I don't believe that adherence to a familial set of principles is necessarily a bad thing, so long as each individual forms his/her opinions after much personal and independent reflection, consideration, and study. Following blindly the political, social, and moral views of those who exert influence over us is not an admirable or desirable trait in a free-thinking society.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto what she said! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Life is too short to drink bad wine."

Hattie

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:11 AM

as another Republican! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif An open minded one at that!!! I've learned quite a bit from the Middle East Studies going on. Can we get back on track again?

And I don't own a gun! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jparkes

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:36 AM

...got your Anthrax shots yet?????

Slightly off topic, but I just have to mention the Russian airliner that went down yesterday. Does anyone think it odd the the US government was quick to say that it was brought down by a missle? Remember the TWA 800 flight that many people thought it was brought down by a missle, but the government was quick to say that it was an explosion on board?

SLW

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:37 AM

I was not attacking the young poster. My comment was directed to Iverness who has since thoughtfully replied.

SLW

N&B&T

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:57 AM

Blech!

AMom

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
Terrorists aside, the economy was not in great shape going towards the end of the summer--economists in government and media alike were scanning the horizon for any sign of an impact from the tax rebates most received in July and August. There wasn't much in evidence--either people were banking the rebates, or paying their bills; they weren't flocking to the malls...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an off topic, but somewhat related question: I am part of the group that was supposed to be receiving my rebate notice, etc. at the end of September due to having a SS# that ended in 99. Now, I am more than happy to give it up (wasn't expecting much anyway) but, I haven't heard anything at all about what is supposed to happen now? Can someone fill me in if they know? Just curious...

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> For example there are always going to be people who can afford to travel. But instead of cancelling their Christmas vacation out of fear, scale it back ... one week instead of two. A three star hotel instead of a five. Rather than not show at all this winter, plan on a few shows if you can afford to. If you need to travel for business now don't put it off until the Spring. Get on that plane and go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree 100% with people not cutting things out completely, but sometimes when you get laid off, it is all you can do to pay your mortgage. And I realize the vicious cycle. Businesses cut expenses, reduce travel, 25,000 airline employees get the boot. I think businesses are making a HUGE mistake when they use layoffs to shore-up their bottom line. It should be a last resort, not an easy fix. I saw (at my last job) people wit 40 years of service laid off, without severence pay. A new CEO came in and wiped people out... leaving the remaining people working 60 hour weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I certainly hope that you never have to experience what it's like to lose horse, car, savings and home all because of bad luck, bad timing or terrorism.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am one pay check away from that scenario. If my boyfriend lost his job, we'd be sunk. He was planning to buy a new car, but with all the uncertainty, we can't risk having another expense should ANYTHING go wrong. Our plan was for me to go to Grad school part time and work full time (unfortunately, I was laid off). Scarier yet was that I spent the summer looking for a job (web/graphic design). I got ONE call on my resume. Luckily, I have a teaching assistanceship, and do some odd jobs... this just isn't a time when our household has any spare money to spend on anything, even a dinner out, much less a vacation. And that's life, and I'm actually quite lucky, and I know that the 100 people who were laid off with me were not that lucky. They had families to feed, car payments, and not many skills.
I really wish we could buy that car or take a vacation, but it just isn't a reality. Rather than giving the airlines a few billion, we need to give them a few billion and tell them to hire back the layoffs!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

jparkes

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:10 AM

...did we work for the same company???
We had a new CEO come in and do the same thing.
Closed offices and plants nationwide and the ones left, working 60 hour weeks.
I find myself to be one of the fortunate ones who was laid off. Kind of enjoying it too!

vineyridge

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:13 AM

Got this in an email from my cousin. Don't know if it's real or not, but it certainly is interesting. Since there is a real name that can be tracked down signed to it, I'm inclined to believe its authenticity.

THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN BY A VERY
BRIGHT AND AFGHANISTAN STREET-SMART WEST POINT GRAD TO HIS CLASSMATES. HE
KNOWS THE TERRAIN, THE ENEMY AND THE WEATHER IN AFGHANISTAN FROM BEING
THERE, NOT FROM BOOKS.BURN HIS WORDS AND ADVICE INTO YOUR BRAINS.WE'LL
WIN, IF WE ALL HANG IN THERE UNTIL IT'S OVER OVER THERE.HACK CLASSMATES:

Many of you are probably not aware that I was one of the last American
citizens to have spent a great deal of time in Afghanistan. I was first
there in 1993 providing relief and assistance to refugees along the Tajik
border and in this capacity have traveled all along the border region
between the two countries. In 1998 and 1999 I was the Deputy Program
Manager for the UN's mine action program in Afghanistan. This program is
the largest civilian employer in the country with over 5,000 persons
clearing mines and UXO. In this later capacity, I was somewhat ironically
engaged in a "Holy War" as decreed by the Taliban, against the evil of
landmines, and by a special proclamation of Mullah Omar, all those who
might have died in this effort were considered to "martyrs" even an
"infidel" like myself. The mine action program is the most respected
relief effort in the country and because of this I had the opportunity to
travel extensively, without too much interference or restricti! on. I
still have extensive contacts in the area and among the Afghan community
and read a great deal on the subject.

I had wanted to write earlier and share some of my perspectives, but quite
frankly I have been a bit too popular in DC this past week and have not
had time. Dr. Tony Kern's comments were excellent and I would like to use
them as a basis for sharing some observations.

First, he is absolutely correct. This war is about will, resolve and
character. I want to touch on that later, but first I want to share some
comments about our "enemy."

Our enemy is not the people of Afghanistan. The country is devastated
beyond what most of us can imagine. The vast majority of the people live
day-to-day, hand to mouth in abject conditions of poverty, misery and
deprivation. Less than 30% of the men are literate, the women even less.
The country is exhausted, and desperately wants something like peace. They
know very little of the world at large, and have no access to information
or knowledge that would counter what they are being told by the Taliban.
They have nothing left, nothing that is except for their pride.

Who is our enemy? Well, our enemy is a group of non-Afghans, often
referred to by the Afghans as "Arabs" and a fanatical group of religious
leaders and their military cohort, the Taliban. The non-Afghan contingent
came from all over the Islamic world to fight in the war against the
Russians. Many came using a covert network created with assistance by our
own government.

OBL (as Osama bin Laden was referred to by us in the country at the time)
restored this network to bring in more fighters, this time to support the
Taliban in their civil war against the former Mujehdeen. Over time this
military support along with financial support has allowed OBL and
his"Arabs" to co-opt significant government activities and leaders. OBL is
the "inspector general" of Taliban armed forces, his bodyguards protect
senior Talib leaders and he has built a system of deep bunkers for the
Taliban, which were designed to withstand cruise missile strikes (uhm,
where did he learn to do that?). His forces basically rule the southern
city of Kandahar.

This high-profile presence of OBL and his "Arabs" has, in the last 2 years
or so, started to generate a great deal of resentment on the part of the
local Afghans. At the same time the legitimacy of the Taliban regime has
started to decrease as it has failed to end the war, as local humanitarian
conditions have worsened and as "cultural" restrictions have become even
harsher. It is my assessment that most Afghans no longer support the
Taliban. Indeed the Taliban have recently had a very difficult time
getting recruits for their forces and have had to rely more and more on
non-Afghans, either from Pushtun tribes in Pakistan or from OBL. OBL and
the Taliban, absent any US action were probably on their way to sharing
the same fate that all other outsiders and outside doctrines have
experienced in Afghanistan-defeat and dismemberment. During the Afghan war
with the Soviets much attention was paid to the martial prowess of the
Afghans. We were all at West Point at the time and m! ost of us had
high-minded idealistic thoughts about how we would all want to go help the
brave "freedom fighters" in their struggle against the Soviets. Those
concepts were naive to the extreme. The Afghans, while never conquered as
a nation, are not invincible in battle. A "good" Afghan battle is one that
makes a lot of noise and light. Basic military skills are rudimentary and
clouded by cultural constraints that no matter what, a warrior should
never lose his honor. Indeed, firing from the prone is considered
distasteful (but still done). Traditionally, the Afghan order of battle is
very feudal in nature, with fighters owing allegiance to a"commander" and
this person owing allegiance upwards and so on and so on. Often such
allegiance is secured by payment. And while the Taliban forces have
changed this somewhat, many of the units in the Taliban army are there
because they are being paid to be there. All such groups have very strong
loyalties along ethnic and tribal lines. A! gain, the concept of having a
place of "honor" and "respect" is of paramount importance and blood feuds
between families and tribes can last for generations over a perceived or
actual slight. That is one reason why there were 7 groups of Mujehdeen
fighting the Russians. It is a very difficult task to form and keep united
a large bunch of Afghans into a military formation. The "real" stories
that have come out of the war against the Soviets are very enlightening
and a lot different from our fantastic visions as cadets. When the first
batch of Stingers came in and were given to one Mujehdeen group, another
group-supposedly on the same side, attacked the first group and stole the
Stingers, not so much because they wanted to use them, but because having
them was a matter of prestige. Many larger coordinated attacks that
advisers tried to conduct failed when all the various Afghan fighting
groups would give up their assigned tasks (such as blocking or overwatch)
and instead would j! oin the assault group in order to seek glory. In
comparison to Vietnam, the intensity of combat and the rate of fatalities
were lower for all involved.

As you can tell from above, it is my assessment that these guys are not
THAT good in a purely military sense and the "Arabs" probably even less so
than the Afghans. So why is it that they have never been conquered? It
goes back to Dr. Kern's point about will. During their history the only
events that have managed to form any semblance of unity among the Afghans,
is the desire to fight foreign invaders. And in doing this the Afghans
have been fanatical. The Afghans' greatest military strength is the
ability to endure hardships that would, in all probability, kill most
Americans and enervate the resolve of all but the most elite military
units. The physical difficulties of fighting in Afghanistan, the terrain,
the weather and the harshness are all weapons that our enemies will use to
their advantage and use well. (NOTE: For you military planner types and
armchair generals--around November 1st most road movement is impossible,
in part because all the roads used by the Russian! s have been destroyed
and air movement will be problematic at best). Also, those fighting us are
not afraid to fight. OBL and others do not think the US has the will or
the stomach for a fight. Indeed after the absolutely inane missile strikes
of 1998, the overwhelming consensus was that we were cowards, who would
not risk one life in face to face combat. Rather than demonstrating our
might and acting as a deterrent, that action and others of the not so
recent past, have reinforced the perception that the US does not have any
"will" and that were are morally and spiritually corrupt.

Our challenge is to play to the weaknesses of our enemy, notably their
propensity for internal struggles, the distrust between the
extremists/Arabs and the majority of Afghans, their limited ability to
fight coordinated battles and their lack of external support. More
importantly through is that we have to take steps not to play to their
strengths, which would be to unite the entire population against us by
increasing their suffering or killing innocents, to get bogged down trying
to hold terrain, or to get into a battle of attrition chasing up and down
mountain valleys.

I have been asked how I would fight the war. This is a big question and
well beyond my pay grade or expertise. And while I do not want to second
guess current plans or start an academic debate I would share the
following from what I know about Afghanistan and the Afghans. First, I
would give the Northern Alliance a big wad of cash so that they can buy
off a chunk of the Taliban army before winter. Second, also with this cash
I would pay some guys to kill some of the Taliban leadership making it
look like an inside job to spread distrust and build on existing discord.
Third I would support the Northern alliance with military assets, but not
take it over or adopt so high a profile as to undermine its legitimacy in
the eyes of most Afghans. Fourth would be to give massive amounts of
humanitarian aid and assistance to the Afghans in Pakistan in order to
demonstrate our goodwill and to give these guys a reason to live rather
than the choice between dying of starvation or dying ! fighting the
"infidel." Fifth, start a series of public works projects in areas of the
country not under Taliban control (these are much more than the press
reports) again to demonstrate goodwill and that improvements come with
peace. Sixth, I would consider vary carefully putting any female service
members into Afghanistan proper-sorry to the females of our class but
within that culture a man who allows a women to fight for him has zero
respect, and we will need respect to gain the cooperation of Afghan
allies. No Afghan will work with a man who fights with women. I would hold
off from doing anything to dramatic in the new term, keeping a low level
of covert action and pressure up over the winter, allowing this pressure
to force open the fissions around the Taliban that were already
developing. I expect that they will quickly turn on themselves and on OBL.
We can pick up the pieces next summer, or the summer after. When we do
"pick-up" the pieces I would make sure that we do ! so on the ground, "man
to man." While I would never want to advocate American causalities, it is
essential that we communicate to OBL and all others watching that we can
and will"engage and destroy the enemy in close combat." As mentioned
above, we should not try to gain or hold terrain, but Infantry operations
against the enemy are essential. There can be no excuses after the defeat
or lingering doubts in the minds of our enemies regarding American resolve
and nothing, nothing will communicate this except for ground combat. And
once this is all over, unlike in 1989 the US must provide continued
long-term economic assistance to rebuild the country.

While I have written too much already, I think it is also important to
share a few things on the subject of brutality. Our opponents will not
abide by the Geneva conventions. There will be no prisoners unless there
is a chance that they can be ransomed or made part of a local prisoner
exchange. During the war with the Soviets, videotapes were made of
communist prisoners having their throats slit. Indeed, there did exist a
"trade" in prisoners so that souvenir videos could be made by outsiders to
take home with them. This practice has spread to the Philippines, Bosnia
and Chechnya were similar videos are being made today and can be found on
the web for those so inclined. We can expect our soldiers to be treated
the same way. Sometime during this war I expect that we will see videos of
US prisoners having their heads cut off. Our enemies will do this not only
to demonstrate their "strength" to their followers, but also to cause us
to overreact, to seek wholesale revenge agai! nst civilian populations and
to turn this into the world wide religious war that they desperately want.
This will be a test of our will and of our character. (For further
collaboration of this type of activity please read Kipling). This will not
be a pretty war; it will be a war of wills, of resolve and somewhat
conversely of compassion and of a character. Towards our enemies, we must
show a level of ruthlessness that has not been part of our military
character for a long time. But to those who are not our enemies we must
show a level of compassion probably unheard of during war. We should do
this not for humanitarian reasons, even though there are many, but for
shrewd military logic. For anyone who is still reading this way to long
note, thanks for your patience. I will try to answer any questions that
may arise in a more concise manner.

Thanks, Richard Kidd

Snowbird

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Damn the politicians and their political stylists for forcing upon us a polarization on the basis of party affiliations; and creating in the ethos of the culture such sharp rancour.

And damn those who can't recognize people for how they are without the need to denounce them as tree-hugging democrats or gun-toting republicans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!

bgoosewood I am truly sorry if I sound mean, it is perhaps because I am concerned and care so much.

You see we 've had some of these debates and agreed with some of the premises proposed here, and, lived to see that in the extreme view they had flaws.

I think most of the Republicans are really anti-establishment because they want control of their own lives, "Individualism means that".

Individualism can sound mean because it sounds as if it means we are opposed to being part of a collective. This is why so many times America has been accused of isolationism, and yet it participaates wholeheartedly in all the needs of the 3rd world to a point of showing a preference for it as opposed to our own citizens.

Symantics tend to dramatize a situation in ways perhaps it shouldn't. Whenever we try to make generalized simplistic statements they can be taken as different than the real intentions. There is in every group extremists who somehow manage to become the definition of the group.

My intention is not to maternalize the next generations but rather to some how explain that these debates have been had and won, but the extentions of the original hypothesis has not worked out as it should.

For example in the above subject of students and education. I don't believe there was major conspiracy to dumb down America. I do believe that well intentioned people thought that it would healthier if children had a homogenous environment. They really had the conviction that it was better for the children.

Now we need to re-examine the ideas, put them with what worked in the past and come to a compromise that might be better for the children yet to be educated.

Sure, the frontier people were coarse and tough and they made mistakes. I had a project a while back and thought that this industry might be the perfect place for native Americans. Their skill with horses and their reverence for the earth I thought would make them compatible with our needs.

And, I hired two Apaches. It was one of the most revealing experiences because I became good friends with one. Randy was the classic image of the native American. Sparkling perfect white teeth and a very gentle nature.

One day when we were talking he mentioned how he never understood why we as white people called him a "Red Man". He thought that in reality their complexion is more related to those from Korea or even the Eskimos, or perhaps the Pacific peoples.

Then he spent a summer in Arizona on the Reservation and one afternnon he and his cousin were sitting on a rock talking and suddenly he looked at his cousin and said "You really are red". It was sunset and the red sun reflected on their skin. That was the picture those back east got from the reports sent back by the Cavalry.

Now, I can tell you, and I know that Randy would agree with me that when he consumed "firewater", alcohol he had a short temper and a very quick response to any misunderstood remark. That would account for the fear they may have engendered in the early colonists. I cannot and will not justify our stealing their land.

There is now a lady who proves my belief that one person can make a difference. A young native American fortunate enough to go to college took on the USA, and all by herself is on the verge of winning a huge settlement for the tribes, long overdue, but better late than never.

Please don't misunderstand my positions, and please don't reinterpret them as opposition. Just as those who survived the holocaust can testify as witnesses, and the soldiers who found them can certify there was a holocaust When they are all gone and you can't see them or hear them in person it may be possible to convince some that there was never a holocaust, and therefore no reason for the State of Israel.

I believe we all agree much more than we disagree on principles, but we do disagree on the methods for solving the problems. My intention is to witness how we got where we are not because we were perfect or made all the right decisions just so you can understand what the reasoning was for the actions we took.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>from Patrick Henry?

Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?

For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?

Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our Founding Fathers had a great idea! It's not perfect but it is by far the best there has ever been. So please forgive my flag waving and my complete patriotism for a civilization under attack.

I too believe that what we have to fear is what will happen if we do nothing.

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:22 AM

Sorry to hear. We only had one plant in Charlotte! I think the worst part was that the CEO made the announcement about 3 months after he started, after a 2 week trip to London, and that week showed up driving a new Lexus. Not much tact...
I too am quite happy not to be there anymore. I feel bad for those left behind with the big work loads and stress that they are next. I will never forget that day. I'd only worked there 1 year. One of the ladies in my dept (she collated mailings etc.) had been there over 40 years. They told us at the same time we were both laid off. They didn't even tell her in private. 40 years she had worked hard. Never one to call in sick or not do her job 100%. Never complained, always smiled. She made maybe $10.00 an hour when she got the boot. She was only a year or 2 shy of 65. Nice, eh?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

SoEasy

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:27 AM

Just a short rejoinder >>>

Snowbird you just said, somewhere up there that Republicans are for individual liberties over the collective ... and that might be true, as long as I am not talking about the individual liberty to have or not have children, to choose my mate, or practice some other part of my individual nature that "they" have decided is bad for me.

Snowbird

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:41 AM

You proposed your hypothesis and then analyized it magnificently.

I was most interested in your analysis of the sociology of the area, that is the need for face saving and prestige. I think you were exactly on target when you said the women must stay out. It was the presence of the women I believe ignited the problems in Saudi Arabia.

I look forward to any other suggestions and analysis you can offer and I trust the powers that be are listening too. Of all the reports I have read this is the concise and complete.

I knew they has no respect for us and our power but I didn't understand why. I now can understand from their perspective how we need to comply with sosme of their personal convictions in order to accomplish our purpose.

The news reports do indicate that someone in Washington is paying attention and following these suggestions for our action. The President has said it could take years and we will go slow and it will be a different war than we have known.

Heidi

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:44 AM

Among the debates last night on "Politically Incorrect" was one premised on the need to know the enemy before launching a retaliatory strike.

Two of the panelists took great offence at this notion and interpreted it as a Freudian exercise rather than the basis of a sound military strategy.

I think part of the debate which has raged on this thread is also premised on that basic disagreement; and the lines drawn have been between those who'd rather deliberate and gather information - and those who feel we must act hard, we must act now, and we must do so without further delay. And of course, throw into the mix political disagreements, insinuations, assumptions, suspicion, some mean words (to which I've admittedly contributed), differing opinions on how best to spend an evening in bed, literary tastes; and, sadly enough, tension between the pro and anti-Fabio factions. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We are all somehow affected and we all share a sense of grief and helplessness. I won't presume to possess the insight to second-guess our military response so I'll bow out of that argument. BTW, thank you, vineyridge, ma'am ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), for posting the most insightful and frighteningly complex letter from Richard Kidd.

I do think, though, that this thread presents us an opportunity to affect change in our own microcosmic way by addressing how best we, virtual strangers strewn throughout the world and North America, can best help out our fellow horsemen and women at this time of sociopolitical and economic distress.

Hugs to you Canter and I hope you know that I'm here to lend you an ear, a shoulder, or share with you a pitcher of sour apple martinis.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:52 AM

if Republicans were truly about individual freedom, I'd be able to smoke a joint in my home without breaking the law. (OK that's a gereralization, but that's the imression I get from listening to NPR all day.)

I remember in government class in 5th grade the teacher explained what Republicans stood for and I thought: "that's me, that's what I agree with" and then he went on to explain what Democrats stood for and I thought: "wait, no, that's me!" So for me, they both have their good points that people seem to forget when lost in their arguments, but in my heart, I'm a Democrat...you know like Maria Shriver, Susan Sarandon and Julia Roberts. ANYWAY, thanks Snowbird for the thoughtful post.
Betsy (in Md)

Snowbird

Oct. 5, 2001, 11:58 AM

In an effort to be politically correct I think the majority of Republicans are not extreme right, that is off in the rain gutter so they choose the path of least resistence which is silence. They depend on others to vocalize their opinions.

A true believer in individual rights would never object to whatever you want to do to your body including cigarettes and alcohol. How and with whom you choose to love is also not the business of anyone and the reason for our opposition to Big Brother.

I think I am as offended as you when the government tries to come into my home and tell me how to live my life. I figure if it is God who gave me life and free will, it is only between God and me what I do with it.

Worse, as you may have already gleaned I am one of those stubborn people who, the more you tell I can't, "I WILL". And, the more you tell me I must, "I WON'T". That's not the Republican part, that's the Hungarian part.

I have already debated several legislators on the hypocricy of trying to have all this healthy stuff being promoted and then complaining because we have the audacity to live too long. I'm beginning to wonder if some time we will be required to check into the dying place at 70 to balance the economy. (AKA Aldous Huxley)

My other pet peeve is that no one looks to see who paid for the survey that says we should drink red wine instead of white wine, or how about the two slices of rye bread to prevent cancer and a 100 more idiot reports paid for by the people who will increase their business if you believe the report.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by heidi-ugh:
Among the debates last night on "Politically Incorrect" was one premised on the need to know the enemy before launching a retaliatory strike.

Two of the panelists took great offence at this notion and interpreted it as a Freudian exercise rather than the basis of a sound military strategy.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, I hope they weren't anyone with decision making authority! That's the first thing that debaters or lawyers are taught....figure out what the other's side's argument is. In other words, know your enemy. I'm sure someone figured that out way be for Freud was born,
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(My husband is a lawyer....luckily we rarely argue; it can be tiresome /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )
Betsy (in MD)

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 12:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

A true believer in individual rights would never object to whatever you want to do to your body including cigarettes and alcohol. How and with whom you choose to love is also not the business of anyone and the reason for our opposition to Big Brother.

My other pet peeve is that no one looks to see who paid for the survey that says we should drink red wine instead of white wine, or how about the two slices of rye bread to prevent cancer and a 100 more idiot reports paid for by the people who will increase their business if you believe the report.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY, now that's one of MY pet peeves too! Who do you think keeps telling us to drink milk!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Snowbird

Oct. 5, 2001, 12:12 PM

It's your mother.

Milk, bread and potatoes are the backbone of humanity, without them we crumble. Everything else is for the fancy taste buds aaand the feel good section of the brain.

It's like for riders, the only two things that matter is your head (helmet I hope, because you only get to have one) and your feet so you won't get them stuck in the stirrups in the event of an emergancy dismount. Everything inbetween is pure vanity and comfort.

Heidi

Oct. 5, 2001, 12:21 PM

I'll have to call up my mother and advise her that she failed me, dietically-speaking. To boot, it seems I failed my own children, one of whom refused to eat bread before the age of 6.

I too have been over-exposed to lawyers, bgoosewood, and agree that among the most valuable lessons learned from them was to know thine enemy.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 5, 2001, 01:01 PM

if there were a way to convince the OBL followers that his logic is flawed (DUH, I know but pretend you are one of them.) I believe their religion is against investing in the stock market, because it's like gambling, but many stock analysts believe that the Taliban made buckets of money in the stock market because of advance knowledge of the WTC disaster. Perhaps if other Muslims could work on convincing them....oh, I don't know I'm talking out my /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Anyway, it's the Dairy industry that has told us to drink milk.

Betsy (in Md)

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 01:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>if Republicans were truly about individual freedom, I'd be able to smoke a joint in my home without breaking the law. (OK that's a gereralization, but that's the imression I get from listening to NPR all day.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 Democrats helped my boyfriend weasel out of some pretty serious marijuana related charges... Seems some pot smokers hold down good jobs, participate in the community by doing good, and aren't violent.... The DA wasn't impressed by the officers description of him being a non-cooperative threat to society after the letters from a few politicians regarding his good deeds in the community!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 01:16 PM

I kind of like your idea. I think his followers are brainwashed. Like a cult. DMK had a link to an interesting article on Janes and it talked about how Bin Laden gives people wads of cash to go fight their own holy war. Apparently he is also very charismatic (hard to imagine, though from pictures, he hardly appears like a psychopath (though I guess they never look wierd...))
I wonder how much the women support all of this garbage going on? I can not believe that anyone could be so inhumane... Do these men not have any love at all for their mates? I can see not wanting the wife to work, or even wear skimpy clothes, but being shot for walking down the street alone covered head to toe? That is nuts. Seems to me we should have put the Taliban in it's place when that BS started. I know those women had freedom at some point in history. It must make it that much more awful for them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 01:23 PM

Are you sure you aren't a libertarian? My main beef with republicans (excepting the environment, and their love affair with corporate interests (not that the Dems are squeaky clean on those fronts either!)) is their moral crusading against our rights. I think we should be able to do whatever we want as long as we don't hurt others.
I think you'd like libertarians - personal liberties and true free markets - also very down to earth candidates!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Inverness

Oct. 5, 2001, 01:40 PM

Those of us inside the Beltway are admittedly biased, but what are our conclusions/conjectures here?

(1) The Bush Administration has been wise to wait instead of engaging in a "fools rush in" scenario;
(2)Bush is receiving good counsel from his military/political advisors re the wisdom of waiting; i.e. he is at least bright enough to listen and do what his advisors are telling him to do.
(3) The effort to build an internationl coalition is essential, and the Bush Administration is doing a good job so far.
(4) The fact is, that this is a global dilemma. Many nations have lived with the threat of terrorism and despotism for decades and we (i.e., the USA) have turned our heads unless the confrontation affected our direct interests. Admittedly, we may not even have been aware of the effects of our actions or inactions on this global travesty, but, nevertheless, we are culpable.
(5) Let's acknowledge the fact that; (i) our "first American" ancestors practiced what today would have been regarded as genocide on the indigenous peoples of the Americas; (ii) Snowbird's fantasies re the conflict between native Americans and European usurpers has nothing to do with the grim and pathetic reality of recorded history; and (iii) if we are to survive, we must promote tolerance, understanding, and acceptance no matter the cost

[This message was edited by Inverness on Oct. 05, 2001 at 04:50 PM.]

[This message was edited by Inverness on Oct. 05, 2001 at 04:51 PM.]

jparkes

Oct. 5, 2001, 02:19 PM

...the man in Florida diagnosed with Anthrax has died. Let's all hope this is an isolated incident. He went fast. If this is an example of what terrorists could do, then it's a little scarry.

Canter

Oct. 5, 2001, 02:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnolia:

I am one pay check away from that scenario. If my boyfriend lost his job, we'd be sunk. He was planning to buy a new car, but with all the uncertainty, we can't risk having another expense should ANYTHING go wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I am wrong Magnolia, but you do own a horse?? What will you do if you are laid off?
I ask because when I saw the economy start tanking the first thing I did was sell the horse. Precautionary perhaps but the way things have gone it looks like I have become a visionary.

Oct. 5, 2001, 02:50 PM

and I was sailing along with you
until you stated 2 points:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Admittedly, we may not even have been aware of the effects of our actions or inactions on this global travesty, but, nevertheless, we are culpable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you implying that the US is somehow responsible for everything that happens on the planet whether we know about it or not? Whether it actually affects us or not?

Sounds like paternalism to me - and I seem to remember the US being slammed on this thread for interference in the affairs of other nations.

So - we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't?

The term culpableimplies guilt. Guilt is not what I feel - shock, yes. Outrage, yes. Determination, yes. Guilt....no.

[QUOTE]if we are to survive, we must promote tolerance, understanding, and acceptance no matter the cost [/QUOTE

Uhhhhh....really? No matter what the cost?

What if the cost is
*massive loss of jobs and industry resulting in below poverty living for a majority of our population?
*establishment of permanent military law or other massive changes in our governmental system resulting in loss of Constitutional government
*military takeover of our country by any other country
*military policing of our country by any other country or countries
*women losing their right to work, own property, have higher education or live without the supervision of a male relative
*women being required to wear full-length schmaates on the few occasions they are allowed to leave their sequestered living quarters
*destruction of our agricultural lands
*despotic rule by a government of religious fanatics

It has all happened in Afghanistan.
It has happened in other countries at times when various civilizations failed and entered periods known as Dark Ages.
It can happen here if our will and our courage are unequal to the task of maintaining our freedoms.

Magnolia

Oct. 5, 2001, 03:15 PM

No, unfortunatly, I don't own a horse. I did as a child, but alas I can't afford one yet. My prior jobs just haven't paid very well for me to own a horse. I figure I need $600.00 of extra income a month to cover everything, and that never happened. Hopefully, after Grad school it will!
I'm lucky enough to be able to lease a horse for a portion of his expenses a few days a week. Hopefully, I'll be teaching some lessons at that farm as well, so I can "barter" for my lease. I'm also not laid off anymore. I was back in April, but I went back to school full time recently and am a TA, which I get a small salary for. I had wanted to work full time and do school fulltime. I'm sorry you had to sell your horse. I can't imagine having to do that!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Canter

Oct. 5, 2001, 03:44 PM

Thanks for the sympathy. Now go buy a package of Gummi Bears or chips and support the economy any way you can.
I will be buying shares in Kraft Macaroni & Cheese dinner! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Snowbird

Oct. 5, 2001, 05:49 PM

The do-gooders who think they know what's good for all of us are after me too with just plain cigarettes.

Please don't blame the Republicans for all that, most I know don't care a twit what you do with yourself in your own home. Mostly, they just want to protect their homes and therefore the gun laws that allow you shoot any intruder in your house.

You see that's how even a good idea can get twisted out of shape. Now, I have all kinds of vices, I smoke, I love white russians (the drink), I eat lots of red rare meat and not much else that's healthy. At 72 since it appears society thinks I've lived too long already I figure I should do whatever I want in my house. Do you know that the insurance company charges an extra $25 a month because my husband lives with me and I smoke cigarettes? Now after 48 years if he doesn't have any respiratory problems why should they charge for 2nd hand smoke? I even read that you can lose your job if they find out you smoke regular cigaretes in your house on your own time. The reason, it boosts the cost of health insurance.

My personal feeling is the pharmaceutical companies are the ones opposed to smoking the other stuff because if it makes you happy you won't need any other drugs that they sell. Heck! there's certainly no problem getting prescriptions for mood altering and mind altering drugs from a doctor. I find that pretty hypocritical. My guess is that many of them are just extracts of the stuff that's natural and illegal.

You see that's problem everyone makes the big leap to believe that Big Business is what Republicans are when in fact during a Republican era there are more Mom and Pop businesses and home businesses than at any other time. Most of the big mergers and the big chain stores are developed when the other side is in under the pretext that it's good for the people because it brings prices down. Balony and monopoly is never good for the people.

Kellybird

Oct. 5, 2001, 09:48 PM

*I think in the past few pages people have said more about me than ever on this BB /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif *

Allow me some time to use the adult side of my brain for a while and drag the topic, yet again, away from Afghanistan...

Snowbird, some of those things you said about Native Americans honestly should have been kept to yourself. The other contradictions you provide confuse me to no end. You bemoan 'A' shows and their stranglehold on the pocketstrings of equestrian society, then you whine about not being able to show off your wealth from fear of being robbed of your fur and pearls? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I also don't think you quite understood my comment on the lack of excitement over intelligence in America--I didn't say anything about Ritalin, I said nothing of 'slow' groups--and HOW DARE you say something like this: "Another concept I really liked was those who were in the top 10% were assigned a personal dummie to tutor." A "personal dummie"?? Why don't you say moron, retard...any other insulting name? If you are really all for equal rights, you would NOT say something like that. Slower, less mentally gifted than thou, whatever. Not dummy. "We didn't have dunce caps or make anyone feel stupid." I find that hard to believe.

What I meant was why do we protect Dubya so vehemtly, as if his "'inferior" intellect--I don't really know if it is, but people have accepted that it is and grabbed hold of this as some sort of grounding device to make the president more human--and criticize Clinton, a Brilliant man, whether or not you agree with him politically. Not that Bush is any less of a person, but why is he made into more because he's a 'nice guy?' For goodness sakes, you didn't elect him for his compassion and puppy-dog eyes, you elected him because you believed that he would perform well in national emergencies and under great stress. Charisma, personality, down-to-earth-ness, people skills...they are nice, but a bonus, not the real requirements for the job.

I hope you were kidding about the milk and potatoes thing, too. Fancy taste buds?? Some people don't have the farmland we do so they don't grow wheat and potatoes, or drink milk--I don't *get* the backbone of humanity thing; explain that, please. I think heidi said it better, though...is the rest of the world wrong for eating brown rice, whale blubber, octopus sashimi, termites, rose petals, or baclava? Taste buds often have nothing to do with it. It's differing geography and culture. How many Moraccans or Eqyptians eat potatoes and consider it the 'backbone' of their lives......not too many. I don't see their cultures' demise in the eyes of a potato--oooooooh bad pun /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Anyway, what I mean is that you can't just say something you believe and apply it to all of humanity. Not all of humanity even knows what milk is and I don't know that all of humanity would appreciate you putting a tuber above Allah in the totem pole of life. Sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes and smell the paella burning in his or her oven to understand where someone is coming from and to apply that knowledge. Generalizations about other cultures are just as common as stereotypes about people in our own culture, and must be avoided just as strongly.

Lord that was long. Sorry if I've stepped on toes, but that's how I feel. And yes those are my opinions, and I do in fact disagree with my parents on (some) things... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'll stop my pint-sized left-wing speech here /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~KBird

Kryswyn

Oct. 5, 2001, 10:18 PM

You ROCK!

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

vineyridge

Oct. 6, 2001, 07:33 AM

We are either in or going into a recession. More people are being laid off. More unemployment claims are being filed. That means less income tax to the government, and more expenses for unemployment compensation. (The feds pick up a good chunk of those benefits.) If business is in trouble, they aren't paying taxes either.

The government has called up several thousand reservists with more probably to be called up later. They have to be paid, fed and housed, and will not be paying income tax on their regular salaries. We are in a "long" war against terrorism, with war expenses. We are promising our allies vast sums of money for their cooperation. The feds are paying vast sums of money out for disaster aid.

Farmers have the lowest commodity prices in years. Cotton is selling at 38 cents a pound, the lowest it's been since the early 80's. Farmers will be paying fewer taxes, unless they receive government subsidies of one kind of another, which will be further expense to the government.

We've just gotten a huge tax cut.

We still don't have prescription drug benefits for seniors or universally affordable health care.

Bush is proposing another huge tax cut. What's the rationale?

DMK

Oct. 6, 2001, 07:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
In an effort to be politically correct I think the majority of Republicans are not extreme right, that is off in the rain gutter so they choose the path of least resistence which is silence. They depend on others to vocalize their opinions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, I have LOTS of Republican friends, and actually knew this. And amazingly enough, not all democrats hang by their toenails to the cliff to your left... Just gotta actually listen to what they are saying to discern that though... Just food for thought, mind you...

My goodness how this thread has grown whilst I was away doing "family stuff" (a parental unit is in town)!

Connection to this thread: was at Chimney Rock, NC yesterday, and learned "Anthrax-Lady" from FL was there before being admitted to NC hospital... I have heard this is pneumonic (?) anthrax and not at all the same variety that one would worry about in the normal scope of things.

Duffy

Oct. 6, 2001, 09:56 AM

I will continue on with the accolades, and add bravery into the compliments. Bravery might not be the right word...But, I've known plenty of "younger" people who are extremely intelligent and articulate, but that aren't comfortable voicing them in some instances/situations. (I'm not just talking about these days, but in "my" day as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) That you are able to do this is vastly impressive. Congratulations. Your parents, teachers, friends, etc. must be terribly proud of you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeyYouNags

Oct. 6, 2001, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Snowbird:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> A chocolate cookie is a chocolate cookie, afterall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can insult my politics, refer to me as childish and immature, or call me tasteless and uneducated, but you must never, never insult my tasty snack food items!!!!

A Hydrox is an Oreo is a generic cream-filled cookie, my a**. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Duffy

Oct. 6, 2001, 10:03 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A chocolate cookie is a chocolate cookie, afterall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, but wouldn't it have been even worse had she said a chocolate chip cookie is a chocolate chip cookie...Can you IMAGINE comparing Toll House cookies with Chips Ahoy??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Hmmmm, on second thought, her actual quote is just as bad. *Shuddering*

HeyYouNags

Oct. 6, 2001, 10:20 AM

Concerning Big Brother's interest in promoting a smoke-free American - The Tobacco Industry is classic Big Business, and has historically been subsidized in various ways by the government. And remember, this is an industry that for many years denied, despite overwhelming scientific information to the contrary, that their product was dangerous.

Why do people like me want people like you to stop smoking? Well, 'cause we think you're wonderful, of course, /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but also because you're costing me money. Your health insurance premiums don't pay for your health care. Everyone's health insurance premiums pays for our collective health insurance. (Umm, that's right, isn't it, DMK?) If you're engaging in a risky behavior like smoking, you're demanding more than your share of our collective health insurance resources. (Note: this analogy must never be extended to risky behavior like horseback riding!) Those of us who live relatively low-risk lives are in effect subsidizing your health care, and your husband's. Smoking isn't simply a matter of free choice - it indirectly affects all of us. Now, if you're willing to foot the bill, out of pocket, for all of your and your family's health care, then maybe I'd find it harder to complain!

Believe it or not, there are educated people of genuine good will, devoid of special-interest connections, working for the government. Federally-sponsored health and nutrition guidelines may actually be good for you. But I also agree with previous posters who noted that Big Business still manages to exert political influence in health and science. Dairy, beef, and pork industries are prime examples.

And this comment harkens back quite a few pages, to comments concerning an Ebola-like outbreak in refugee camps - apparently that was simply not true. I don't mean any disrespect to folks who are fond of the Drudge Report, but isn't Drudge's philosophy to print first, and fact check later? I wouldn't want to bet the rent on anything I read there.

Okay, is there any controversial topic that this thread hasn't covered yet? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kellybird

Oct. 6, 2001, 10:34 AM

Ghiradelli chocolate chip cookies will never be replaced by generic brands in my tummy! Not all cookies are created equal...

Duffy, I'm blushing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~KBird

Snowbird

Oct. 6, 2001, 10:36 AM

It does appear that we can't even agree on humor, I have no doubt we would disagree on music, I am sure we disagree on the basic relationships of everything in the world.

Again it is really from where and how you perceive things isn't it. Talk about jumping to conclusions and generalizing WOW!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Snowbird, some of those things you said about Native Americans honestly should have been kept to yourself. The other contradictions you provide confuse me to no end.

You bemoan 'A' shows and their stranglehold on the pocketstrings of equestrian society, then you whine about not being able to show off your wealth from fear of being robbed of your fur and pearls?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm so sorry, I did not know that you were the standard for proper attitudes, isn't it weird I thought that it was possible to express personal opinions from a personal perspective without having my knuckles cracked by the teacher. I do apologize for my lack understanding.

I guess it is true that if you wish to be treated with kindness you need to agree with all the proposed positions. It's really strange you know, because I thought that freedom meant the right to have any opinion or choices not just the party line. But, I guess to you freedom is simply the right to agree with you.

I just think if I post enough and try to explain enough perhaps even you will be able some day to understand my euphonisms and attitudes.

As to the AA Shows well, I do think it should be possible to make evaluations predicated on an over-all welfare without being accused of prejudice. Your words are "a stranglehold on pocketbooks"; mine are a monopoly because 10 rings is really 3 shows in one. In another day anyone who ran more than four rings would have been considered pretty tacky.

I do admit that I dearly, loved the 3 ring shows where we all sat around and were friends and had glorious tailgate parties. Since most people still in this sport were raised there, I would hope that the new generation could enjoy the same experiences. Just my opinion of course and I didn't realize that idea was a taboo. That is why I choose my route through this world.

As to whining, I never said I had either a fancy car or furs and jewelry. Your conclusion is based on the fact that you don't know me at all. In reality I have never felt any need to accumulate the trimmings of apparel or toys. And, never been impressed by them.

My generation is the one who tried to save women from stiletto heels, waist cinchers, girdles, wonder bars (trust me they're not new) and stereo types where women were required to have cleavage.

We were the generation that put you all into blue jeans so that there was no difference between the rich and the poor by appearance at least. With that philosophy I find no need for furs and jewelry myself but I can sympathize with those to whom it is important are afraid to show them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Not that Bush is any less of a person, but why is he made into more because he's a 'nice guy?' For goodness sakes, you didn't elect him for his compassion and puppy-dog eyes, you elected him because you believed that he would perform well in national emergencies and under great stress. Charisma, personality, down-to-earth-ness, people skills...they are nice, but a bonus, not the real requirements for the job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this concept I really don't understand! I really always thought that good character, (nice guy), compassion (nice guy) were requirements for someone that we all could trust and depend on. On what basis do we judge intelligence, is it purely on IQ scores and SAT scores or what college someone attended. I'd be really curious to know what exactly was Bill Clinton's IQ and what is George Bush's IQ. It's funny I've never heard that mentioned anywhere.

So are you saying we need to judge someone based on what criteria? And what is the basis for your conclusion that Bill Clinton is brilliant?

Lighten up Kellybird it's a long perilous life we all live and so far we are entitled to make our judgments for the quality of that life. As to the use of the word "dummie", it was a exageration of a concept which obviously you didn't understand, at least not in that context.

It was an effort to describe the fact that we are not all created equal (in a light hearted way), and there are other ways to make those with more, feel responsible for those with less, on a individual level. And, if it is done on that individual level there is no reason for Big Brother to sponsor special programs.

These students each had a private tutor at no cost to anyone and with the benefit that the tutor learns to be a responsible member of a community and has all the pleasure and gratification of feeling that they accomplished something really worthwhile when the student they tutored got better grades. They had the opportunity to get to know someone who they otherwise might have overlooked if they were isolated in their own room away from the mainstream.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 06, 2001 at 01:47 PM.]

Magnolia

Oct. 6, 2001, 10:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Please don't blame the Republicans for all that, most I know don't care a twit what you do with yourself in your own home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, most that I know want the druglaws, including marijuana, even used in one's own home, no selling etc... prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. In my boyfriends case, he was facing 65 years in prison, and was NOT charged with trafficking or dealing, just possesion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Unfortunatly, people like Sue Myrick feel that someone like him should serve his 65 years because (and her words) "It's the law". The democrats thought it ludicrous. (Apparently the DA is a dem.). It may just be a southern thing, but our lovely examples of republicans in my state - Sue Myrick and Jesse Helms aren't exactly for personal freedoms.

Canter
Just for you, I'm gonna buy myself a pint of Ben & Jerry's at the grocery today!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Yes, but wouldn't it have been even worse had she said a chocolate chip cookie is a chocolate chip cookie...Can you IMAGINE comparing Toll House cookies with Chips Ahoy???

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gee, thanks Duffy, just keep on talking about food. If you do, I maybe able to resesicutate (sp?) the economy this evening when I go to the grocery store! (and later when my pants don't fit and I need to ahem... go up a size!)

Kellybird

Oct. 6, 2001, 11:26 AM

No I don't doubt that we'd disagree on music /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do find it funny that two users with names ending in 'bird' are arguing however. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

Talk about jumping to conclusions and generalizing WOW!

I'm so sorry, I did not know that you were the censor for proper attitudes, isn't weird I thought that it was possible to express personal opinions from a personal perspective without having my knuckles cracked by the teacher.

I'm not the censor. Who appointed me censor? I just felt a few of your comments could have been rephrased. I'll keep my mouth shut next time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You are welcome to express your right to free speech, and you may do so, but I will also defend my right to find what you say wrong and I will certainly tell you why I think it's wrong /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just my opinion of course and I didn't realize that idea was a taboo. It's not a taboo, I was using examples of things you had said.

As to whining, I never said I had either a fancy car or furs and jewelry. Your is conclusion based on the fact that you don't know me at all. In reality I have never felt any need to accumulate the trimmings of apparel or toys.

I also didn't say you had a fancy car, furs, jewerly--those were hypothetical examples. I recall you making comments about wanting to leave money to your children or using the money you had accumulated to buy things for yourself--which is fine, I do the same. They were imaginary examples you yourself gave, and I was trying to use the same examples to keep a coherent thought. Nothing more. I don't care if you have a fur coat that you don't wear for fear of being mugged and I don't care if you don't have a fur coat because you are adamtantly anti-fur--it was an example to illustrate a point that obviously failed, because I can't even remember what I was trying to prove. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My generation is the one who tried I won't even go into the generation thing because I know I'm wrong there...no matter what I say.

I really always thought that good character, (nice guy), compassion (nice guy) were requirements for someone that we all could trust and depend on. On what basis do we judge intelligence, is it purely on IQ scores and SAT scores or what college someone attended. I'd be really curious to know what exactly was Bill Clinton's IQ and what is George Bush's IQ. It's funny I've never heard that mentioned anywhere.
I believe Bill Clinton's IQ is near 200, someone correct me here--but that matters not you becaue you don't like him. I personally am not a big fan of George Bush, but it's more politically-based. I'm not criticizing his accent, shoe size, hair color, choice of terms when giving international speeches--"y'all!?"--his dislike for baby carrots and/or quisches, or his favorite musical perofrmer. I don't agree with his politics and that's that. I's not that I don't care about compassion, (I do), it's that I care more about WHAT he says than whether or not he was smiling and acting friendly-like when he said it. Good-natured criticisms of his accent, like what started this thread, are not critiques of the man himself but make light of an aspect of him.

Lighten up Kellybird
If you knew me you wouldn't have to tell me this /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
it's a long perilous life we all live and so far we are entitled to make our judgments for the quality of that life. As to the use of the word "dummie", it was a exageration of a concept which obviously you didn't understand, at least not in that context.

Trust me, Snowbird, I understood what you meant. Being in the 'high' reading group, I've had to tutor the "low" reading group kids and I would never, ever EVER say dummy. Ever. It's rude, unecessary, and doesn't help anyone. I know you didn't mean it to make fun of anyone, but you never know who's reading this and I would like to think that you could set an examply for us doomed youth who don't have your wisdom and life experience. Would you want us all to start calling each other names? My problem is not with the word "dummy," it's with your blithe disregard for others take the things you have to say.

As much as I know you'd like to think otherwise, I understood all you euphemisms, metaphors, similes, stories, and anecdotes. Your use of the word "dummy" wasn't polite, and whether or not it was used in good fun, I would hope that you would consider how that could be taken. I know you stand for personal freedom, but there is a point at which your personal freedom encroaches on soemone else's well-being and you have to step back and maybe not say everything in such a "joking"--joking to you, serious to others--way.

These students each had a private tutor at no cost to anyone and with the benefit that the tutor learns to be a responsible member of a community and has all the pleasure and gratification of feeling that they accomplished something really worthwhile when the student they tutored got better grades. They had the opportunity to get to know someone who they otherwise might have overlooked if they were isolated in their own room away from the mainstream.

Did I say isolate the smart ones?? Snowbird, I am one of the 'smart ones'--according to the criteria for gifted education in our school district, for what that's worth /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and I would never want to be isolated from the mainstream. I didn't say to lock the gifted ones up in a room to solve astrophysics problems, I personally think that would be a tragedy and a veritable hell. My point was just that we always defend the mediocre and mock intelligence. Why? To my mind it seems that the goal would be to strive for excellence, especially with something liek intellignce. Maybe I'm too young and naive and I should spend more time trying to be like your generation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'm done for now........pardon me while I go look for some blank picket signs...

~KBird

Magnolia

Oct. 6, 2001, 11:37 AM

I remember in highschool, we'd have huge pep rallies for the jocks, and announce their names on the PA when they won... but never did we give the smart students a pat on the back. No "Kellybird got a 5 on her AP test!", or "This weekend, student's picketed the nuclear plant and were arrested for doing something they believed in", or "Art student gets first prize in the artshow" It's like intelligence is a taboo or something. You'll get to see even more when you get to the work world.
Hang in there.
BTW, Bill Clinton's IQ was 200???????? WOW, that is nuts. Is he a mensa member?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Snowbird

Oct. 6, 2001, 11:55 AM

OH! sure in every group there are the sticklers who want to follow the letter of any law. And there are some Republicans even I can't respect.

As to being Libertarian, I've thought about that but they seem a little too close to anarchy. I haven't heard any speakers for the party that had a criteria of a system. I admit I like having the rules spelled out in detail. I also like being able to change them if they don't work.

You know part of what's wrong is this labeling and the fear, all politicians are more anxious to be elected than to be right. Which I find very disappointing but it is flaw for the system to deal with some time soon.

I think that under the mantel of individualism most Republicans would agree but are just plain scared to death to say they think the "drug war" was a bust and has gone bezerk!

Personally, while I wouldn't imbibe just because I don't go for any chemical mind altering substances beyond coffee and sugar, I wonder what exactly is in prozac.

Wouldn't it be hysterical if someone broke down the chemical characteristics and found they were the same as smoking that other weed.

It's like all the tests they've done on smoking, their conclusions are not based on a fair tabulation. For example how many of those tested are A personalities who would have had a heart attack anyway because they are stressed. How many of the A personality people who smoke cigarettes would have had heart attacks if they didn't smoke?

How come we have so much more asthma and breathing problems now that the world is becoming smoke free? We all smoked from the 40's and no one seems to have suffered until now when everyone is trying to stop smoking? That's what I mean in all these polls and surveys we need to look at who and how the survey was taken.

The stampede against drug use was predicated on the fact that if the punishment was great enough then no one would use, well that's been blatantly proved untrue. It was the same with the bootleggers during prohibiton, a whole underground grew up because people wanted alcohol for whatever reason.

Since it is the tobacco companies that produce all those nicotine patches and pills maybe they just discovered a more profitable route to the wallet while selling nicotine administering in a better way.

Maybe, on this drug thing the problem is that the underground hoodlums have so much influence in Congress because they have so much money and they're just defending their turf.

But, I don't know how you could put a reasonable group of people together who didn't have a conflict of interest to make a better decision. Our system isn't perfect but it's the best one so far.

Yep! I do think I should have the right to polute my body with whatever I choose. If I don't want to live to be 100 why should I have to do it? Why not have a fun ride while I'm here and check out when I'm ready?

It's get's back to economics. If your have been sold a bill of goods that says if I get sick it's going to cost you, then you will want to keep me from getting sick. Premise sounds fine in a campaign, collective welfare interests. But in application it's the same kind of restriction.

Will there someday be a computer in my regrigerator that tells the authorities that I ate red meat, didn't drink my orange juice and had too much coffee. That is the collective right if they are responsible for my bills.

So, people are convinced that it will cost them lot's of money for health care if you all are smoking pot. The closer you get to the pocket book the more serious the punishment.

Now, if all you do in kill a couple of people in a psychotic rage that's acceptable because only a couple of people got hurt, it didn't cost society it only cost their families. That's what I see as a reason not to support collective thinking. They also saved all that money supporting the psychotic in a hospital. Collective economics again based on the bottom line.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 06, 2001 at 03:03 PM.]

Magnolia

Oct. 6, 2001, 12:39 PM

Mis-prescribed prescription medications.
Guess why pot isn't "medicinal"?
You can't get a patent on it. So a drug company can't make money off of it.
Guess what Ritalin is?
Legal cocaine in a different form.
Guess how Afghanistan mkes money?
Because heroin is illegal, which means they can get more $$$ for it than if it was a crop like say, wheat.
I do think our govt tells us to much about what to do and what not to do, but I think most people tune them out. It just stinks when they make something you enjoy illegal. I would never smoke a cigarette, but I'd feel really bad if people went to jail because the grew some nicotene to smoke. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Oct. 6, 2001, 01:09 PM

Just been checking in occasionally -I was in Turkey Sept 11 and didn't get home until the end of the month - but just have to add to the chorus "Go Kellybird, go Hobson, go Magnolia, go Heidi" Thanks for all your well-put points and thoughts, and thanks also to folks who've been posting links to relevant articles and such!

horsluvr

Oct. 6, 2001, 01:16 PM

If any of you IGNORANT people would like me to enlighten you about this drug please just ask. No more than a diabetic can do without insulin, or a near sighted child go without glasses, can the true ADD child function without properly BALANCING his/her brain chemistry. The plain old ignorance on this board is infuriating. If you don't agree with the left, you are crucified. Snowbird, I admire your tenacious defense but your words are wasted. Go where your knowledge and wisdom of age are appreciated. It really isn't here. Save yourself the aggrevation of trying to enlighten those that already have ALL the answers. This is a good example of 'a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

ohnowwhat

Oct. 6, 2001, 01:18 PM

Goodness, Kellybird. Have you ever considered creating your own website?

Magnolia

Oct. 6, 2001, 01:31 PM

I'm pretty sure many children can do without their Ritalin. I'd act out too if I was an 11 year old forced to sit all day and learn about phonics. I'd be watching the birds outside as well. Maybe instead of drugging kids, we need to give them frequent breaks and let them outside instead of cutting their recess (oh yes, but then they wouldn't pass the tests). We give our young horses more breaks! Does anyone on this BB find it acceptable to drug a young horse so he'll focus when you train him, or do we let the horse be a horse and only demand his attention for short spans?
My mom was a teacher, and I know she had a few ADD kids and appreciated what it did for them, but she also thought ADD was over diagnosed and a lot of it was just plain old lazy, hyper or spoiled kids.
Also, what effect does it have on the brain? I thought it was very similar to cocaine in that it stimulates neurons in the brain...

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Duffy

Oct. 6, 2001, 01:39 PM

horsluvr, I totally agree on the bad rap that Ritalin and Adderal have received. I also agree that their use has probably been abused. But, for the children who medically need these prescriptions, the results are amazing. In the cases I'm familiar with, it's the difference between allowing a child's brain to learn and/or retain anything, whether it be facts, figures, direction, etc., and not being able to - simple as that. I believe in giving a child a chance. It has nothing to do with a bad actor or hyper child.

This does not mean that I support the abuse of said prescriptions. Nor, am I against other forms of teaching these children. Nor, am I against the learning of coping mechanisms and techniques so that these children do not have to remain on these prescribed medications. Nor, am I against LOTS of needed research into these brain disorders ("ADD" or "ADHD") so that other alternatives can be used besides medications.

Kellybird

Oct. 6, 2001, 02:56 PM

ohnowwhat....yes I have considered it, but the idea of so much hate mail clogging my hotmail account kind of scares me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~KBird

horsluvr

Oct. 6, 2001, 04:38 PM

In a 'normal' person, yes ritalin is a stimulant. In an ADD or ADHD person, it acts to focus the rapidly firing (or misfiring?) brain synapses. In ADD the brain lacks the ability to go from "A" to "B" ..it goes from "A" to "CHSJMVURDNGMTUDHTMFJDN" then to "B", MAYBE. Ritalin acts like a pair of glasses for the brain. In a 'normal' child, it would make them nervous and edgy. In an ADD child, it makes them focused and able to stay on one thing for longer than three seconds. For those who need it and their families it is a Godsend. I WISH a child with ADD or ADHD on some of you who think that it is something that can be educated out of them!! It is a REAL ORGANIC disorder in the brain synapses, not some psychobabble that has become a new 'fad'. Research?? Yes. Summarily dismissing the whole syndrome to 'behavior' or 'spoiling' is dead wrong.
You CAN NOT sedate a 'normal' child with the drug. It would make the behavior much WORSE. Therefore true ADD and ADHD children CAN NOT "do without" the medication. I take that back, they CAN do without it but they will not be able to keep on task or complete a thought. The notion of teachers et al 'sedating' kids with ritalin is laughable. Anyone who thinks that is clearly ignorant about ADD and it's pharmacology.

[This message was edited by horsluvr on Oct. 06, 2001 at 07:47 PM.]

SLW

Oct. 6, 2001, 04:49 PM

Iverness wrote: <<[5) [iii) if we are to survive, we must promote tolerance, understanding, and acceptance no matter the cost.>>

Heyounags wrote: <<Why do people like me want people like you to stop smoking? Well, 'cause we think you're wonderful, of course, but also because you're costing me money. Your health insurance premiums don't pay for your health care. Everyone's health insurance premiums pay for our collective health insurance. [Umm, that's right, isn't it, DMK?) If you're engaging in a risky behavior like smoking, you're demanding more than your share of our collective health insurance resources. [Note: this analogy must never be extended to risky behavior like horseback riding!) Those of us who live relatively low-risk lives are in effect subsidizing your health care, and your husband's. Smoking isn't simply a matter of free choice - it indirectly affects all of us. Now, if you're willing to foot the bill, out of pocket, for all of your and your family's health care, then maybe I'd find it harder to complain!>>

Am I mixing apples and oranges or is correct to surmise that globally we should tolerate, understand and accept everything no matter what the cost, unless you are an American smoker then you cost us too much money? Sure, the first post was speaking globally and the second about an American but aren�t we part of the global world? What about all the moms, teenage and other, wed and unwed, who bring babies into the world and use Medicaid? What about the non-productive alcoholics who cost us money? The drug addict? The person who contracted HIV by making poor choices and used bad needles or unsafe sex? Are these not also risky behaviors that collectively cost the health insurance industry money? And like HYN mentioned �no horses�, we won�t bring motorcycle riders, jet skis and other risky recreation into the fold, just the risky behaviors.

I am getting a mixed message. Would someone explain it to me.

SLW

To make it horse related, I saw a news clip of Osama Bin Laden riding a black horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M. O'Connor

Oct. 6, 2001, 05:36 PM

prevails against the crazies, we won't be needing any of those fancy pre-green prospects/ eq horses or jumpers...the school horses may come in handy to go back and forth to town on, though....

SLW

Oct. 6, 2001, 06:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
prevails against the crazies, we won't be needing any of those fancy pre-green prospects/ eq horses or jumpers...the school horses may come in handy to go back and forth to town on, though....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! Hummm, since I'll be riding to town, 13 miles each way, my horses hooves will wear down and I can ditch my fabulous farrier! Already SAVING money!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW

creseida

Oct. 6, 2001, 06:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnolia:

BTW, Bill Clinton's IQ was 200???????? WOW, that is nuts. Is he a mensa member?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Says who? Bill? Hah. Sounds like another lie... y'now, the one where he said, "I did not have a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky"? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If his IQ really is 200, (sure, it is /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) he would not have needed others to define the word, "Sex" for him. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The man is an idiot without the savant.

What I do, I do for my horse, and thus I do for myself~me

Snowbird

Oct. 6, 2001, 07:04 PM

Now I'm 72 have smoked for over 55 years. I cost our government nothing in medical care and even when the doctor prescribes things I rarely have the time to waste getting MRI done and such. Last year I conceded and had a whole set of tests done and much to the chagrin of my doctor I'm fine. Three healthy children and believe me no low birth weight babies.

So do I get a credit or a gold star on my case file? I don't know why, but I will tell you that I believe in doing what is pleasant and feels good, eating what tastes good. I can tell you that I enjoy every day as if I were going to die tomorrow. And, I sure don't want some government clerk telling me how to live.

I smoked through the pregnancies because no one suspected that I shouldn't, and I can verify that by today's standards of excellence you all should probably have died at birth. We didn't breast feed because we were told it was bad for the baby and only 3rd world women who couldn't afford formula would consider breast feeding. I took for some 20 years some little light green pill at 10 AM every morning. I have no idea what it was because in those we trusted our doctors and just didn't need to know all that stuff. My GOD! how awful we used that nasty stuff called talcum powder, rubbing alcohol and we even put honey in the baby's bottle of water. Today, all that stuff would proably warrant and arrest for child abuse.

My point is not that we all were right or that we were perfect or superior but the fact is that styles change the frames of reference change. I just watched a show where some doctors claim that the reason children are so much sicker these days is because mothers keep them too clean. It damages their immune system. Guess what dirt is the healthiest for children? It's all the lovely bacteria we have in a barn.

I mean come on guys! a little common sense please regarding the voices of the experts and their motivations. I'm not trying to say all my bad habits and appetites are OK! I'm only saying I have the right as an individual to live my life the way I want. And, yes! if the aid comes with long strings that tie me up so I can't enjoy each day then who needs it? I moved out here in the boonies to get closer to the natural world. I get to live with a lot of dust, mold, ragweed, tree pollen and bacteria every day while I watch my horses play in the pasture.

Did you know some expert said you add a day to your life for every 15 minutes that you pet an animal with four legs? If he's right you're going to be stuck with me and the likes of me for an awful lot of years so please get used to us and get to know us.

I promise not to use up your money on me.

Welcome aboard all you individualists, boy it's been really lonely here until now.

DMK

Oct. 6, 2001, 08:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

I promise not to use up your money on me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, the joys of Medicare, Medicaid, private health insurance, risk pools, the uninsured, and those clever little games that hospitals play in order to adjust their DRG payments /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And I would be remiss if I forgot to mention insurance companies who cost shift to knock the unhealthy risk pools off their watch...

Sad thing about your statement Snowbird, is I PROMISE you, you are the LAST person who has a say in this...

That isn't a comment on the value or lack thereof of any of the aforementioned systems, just an observation based on many years of being neck deep in a system that has redefined SNAFU.

SLW - to your point, on the surface you only pay for the pool of risk associated with your insurance company. The reality is a lot more complicated. If your area has a lot of uninsured, they still get medical care, albeit only when they are drastically ill, and therefore quite costly, but I promise you, the hospital does not eat those costs. Even if there is no state funding available to that hospital (a la private hospital), as long as it accepts Medicare (they all do), that "uninsured write off" gets handled in two ways. First and foremost, it affects the rate the federal government pays that hospital for their Medicare patients (over 65), secondly, it changes their Reasonable & Customary (R&C) modifier. I'll give you a hint /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif they both go in the same direction, and it ain't down...

So while we do not have national health care, in that we make an effort at preventing disease in ALL of our citizens, we do treat them all when they are very ill, and we do all pay for it. Probably the single most rational argument for nationalized health care is that it would save money.

Now I'm not for a national health care system 99.99% of the time, but I promise you, if you spend your life looking at how badly broke the system is here, there are days you start to wonder... even though it would mean the end to your somewhat well paying job...

Kellybird

Oct. 6, 2001, 08:10 PM

magnolia and creseida--before we go spreading some false rumor about Bill Clinton's IQ, which may or may not be close to 200, I was hoping someone could verify that. Does anyone know? Por favor?

Thanks in advance /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*I'm editing this again because I just noticed that this is my 999th post.....* /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 1,000 here I come!

[This message was edited by Kellybird on Oct. 06, 2001 at 11:20 PM.]

Heidi

Oct. 6, 2001, 08:22 PM

Irregardless of the actual number, rest assured Billy Clinton is smarter than most of the population. Perhaps it's a question of personal preference, but for me, it's rather reassuring that the (former) President of the United States is smarter than the guy who fixes my cable modem.

ohnowwhat

Oct. 6, 2001, 08:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by creseida:

The man is an idiot without the savant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird

Oct. 6, 2001, 11:15 PM

By what criteria do you make that judgement? How do you know he is smarter than your cable repair man?

From my own circle of friends, those who are really intelligent don't go into politics. Even at the lower levels of politics usually the good lawyers can't afford to play because the townships and counties just don't pay enough.

I wouldn't think a lawyer was very smart if he gets disbarred by his own State where he had been Governor for so long. How smart could Bubba be if he got caught big time. I mean really that makes OJ a genius, he got off. Would you want to hire a lawyer that was disbarred? I think he is slick and that's not the same as smart. That poor man has never been able to hide anything he does, he always gets caught.

What then could be the reason he had so much trouble with the word "is" and what "is" is?

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 07, 2001 at 02:43 AM.]

Snowbird

Oct. 6, 2001, 11:30 PM

I know that the Insurance Companies don't play to pay, and certainly the hospitals are not going to absorb the losses. But, I must say that the point I made was not to get into health care systems except to show how the establishment gets into your bedroom. I would like to know how they calculate their risk people. I thought they refused to insure them. They seem to only want premiums from people who don't do anything and I don't know if that's all that healthy.

So many well intentioned plans and causes go askew when the money starts to roll and they have to mee that big pay off. My position is simplistic, based on history we are responsible for ourselves.
Whenever, you seek entitlements it follows the old rule "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is". We pay for all kinds of insurance and then if we have a claim they just bump up the premiums until you've paid them back. It is a life's work just to read any policy with all the if's and's and but's and exemptions.

I wonder, have you heard any repercussions regarding September 11. I understand that most policies that would cover the losses people had are void if it is an act of war. What is it up to so far around 150 billion and climbing. I wonder if this affects Life Insurance as well as property damage. And, if they don't pay off how will that affect the general economy? The ripples will go around the world.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 07, 2001 at 02:39 AM.]

DMK

Oct. 7, 2001, 07:29 AM

Sadly, Snowbird, your views on insurance are a tad simplistic, but certainly do reflect days gone by...

The concept of not insuring high risk health insurance pools is in most cases against state law, and more recently, against federal law. Now of course, left unregulated, markets will seek to be most profitable and not leave themselves exposed to such risks, but the government has said that is Not A Good Thing, and insurance needs to be available to all who can afford it (of course that concept is a good for a giggle).

Now if we want to talk about profits and the high cost of health insurance premiums, this is where we enter the vicious circle. Given that health insurance premiums are high, the people who are most likely to opt out and pay rent instead are those that most likely will not need it. We call these people the "good risk". Funny thing about rating pools, if you take all the "good risk" out, you are left with the "bad risk" (older populations, populations with chronic conditions, smokers, drinkers, those with poor dietary habits). Add to this the Insurance Axiom that the older the insured population is, the sicker they get. Voila, upward spiral your premiums, because the American population is on a bell curve to "old" and the bulk of the uninsured are much more likely to be the good risk that reduces the average cost.

As for the quandary of life insurance payouts, that is going to be a interesting indeed. Most insurance (health and life) have an exclusion against "Acts of War". Now to think that a insurer is NOT going to pay the life insurance policy on someone who died on that horrible day is to not have a good grasp of the situation. Yes, they will pay. They will pay because the people who make these decisions are the same as us - people who experienced a horrific event and will do anything in their power to make it better, even something as small as paying out the policy.

On a more practical level, they will do it, because if they did not pay out on policies, and the government didn't actually order them to (unlikely), they would be run out of business by people refusing to continue to do business with them.

The real battle (for those who follow these things) will between the original insurer and their reinsurers. Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and insurance companies have insurance... This battle will hinge on - of all things - whether we are in a "war" or not...

As for premiums going up - life and health, it is likely. Health insurance costs were spiraling out of control starting about 4 years ago, and since health insurers run a 12-18 month lag on this kind of data, they were really caught in a hole starting in 1999. They've been catching up ever since. Life has always been a very stable, competative business so that will probably not suffer as much. In either case, most states require that a certain percentage of every dollar be spent on claims (called a loss ratio), and some states are very stict in that regard. In any event, and ASA/FSA has to certify the past and expected loss ratio for the insurer before any rate increases can be approved.

Duffy

Oct. 7, 2001, 07:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kellybird:
magnolia and creseida--before we go spreading some false rumor about Bill Clinton's IQ, which may or may not be close to 200, I was hoping someone could verify that. Does anyone know? Por favor?

Thanks in advance /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure our former President's IQ is right up there, but methinks approaching 200 might be a titch generous. Last time I played Trivial Pursuit and this came up, I was shocked that anything over maybe 125 qualified one as a genius! YEAH!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That said, I know plenty of supposed "genius" level IQ people who could barely screw in a light bulb, let alone...Well, you catch my drift.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kellybird

Oct. 7, 2001, 08:37 AM

125? I was under the impression that genius-level was about 162--nice round numbers, huh--and I also know quite a few people at "genious" level who might trip while chewing gum /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jparkes

Oct. 7, 2001, 10:12 AM

...the attacks have begun in Kabul.

Linny

Oct. 7, 2001, 10:21 AM

Clinton may have a higher IQ than Dubya but I agree with former Clinton advisor Dick Morris. Clinton's tendency to overthink and try to please all sides would make him far less able to take on this situation than GWB. Bubba likes to see grey wher e W sees black and white. Clinton's limited retaliation to previous terror attacks is evidence. My launching a few missiles he can tell the hawks that he struck, while keeping it limited to appease the doves. Clinton also could never have formed to effective a team as Powell, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft.

BEQS clique. With elbows in!

Beans

Oct. 7, 2001, 03:25 PM

I'd like to hope this thread can be closed now. As the air strikes go on and our country is asked to hold a steady course on the homefront - we just don't need any comments on GEORGE W. BUSH's, accent, IQ or whatever. He is the Commander & Chief of our Armed Forces. THEY need his direction and WE need to give them our support by supporting him.

No politics, no pettiness just good honest to God PRAYERS!

Kellybird

Oct. 7, 2001, 03:40 PM

I agree with the prayers part...but I disagree about not talking about it. Why can't we discuss national affairs? [although many thanks to Erin for letting this go on so long, perhaps we should start a new thread free of peeps and Fabio /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif] We are capable of having somewhat intelligent discussions on matters of international importance, and this is well, a BIG event. Most of us frequent the board at least once a day, and to have to 'tiptoe' around a gigantic purple elephant in the room, so to speak, would be really weird. We are at war--it's unfair to force us to not talk about something so major and life-altering.

Just my two cents.

~KBird

Snowbird

Oct. 7, 2001, 04:36 PM

I think if we focus and stay on course this can be a really good area for discussion. But, I agree with Ilona this is not the time to second guess the President and the troops at risk. I think we can cease the seelf aanalysis of this country and compare it to what's out there trying to pull us down to their level.

Who was it that posted we should drop food to the Afghans? Looks like Washington was reading our BB and agreed it was good idea. They're doing it right now with medicines too. They said they would fly in lower to get closer to the territory occupied by the Taliban but right now the planes are flying high so they're pretty far into the country. Maybe God will hear our prayers and one of the boxes of food will land right on bin Laden's head and squash him like a bug.

Yes! please let's try to be supportive of the decisions being made and the action being taken. After there is peace again you'll all be unmusseled and free to complain as much as you want. Just for now let's try to realize how blessed we are with our lives in freedom and relative safety. During World War II, families had to send their children away to keep them safe.

Think what it must have been like in London being bombed every night and for kids who grew up in bomb shelters.

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 7, 2001, 06:20 PM

edit

Snowbird

Oct. 7, 2001, 07:15 PM

We were taught to not be emotional, we were expected to be controlled and not react. Your Dad is like the rest of us, we just didn't discuss what was bad that happened. Why? bother it was over and life had to go on. That's how we prevented all this stress syndrome stuff. We also didn't look at what the children did right that was expected and only what was wrong was worth discussing. The War veterans never talked about what they saw or what they did or what they experienced. It was the way of our generation, what you felt was private and never to be exposed to the world or even anyone else. Bet your Dad said to you "we don't wash our dirty laundry in public".

I probably still have our ration books someplace because I am an uncontrolled pack rat. It was just a different time that taught different things, all this self analysis and self criticism was unacceptable.

But, I remember being limited in the amount gas that could be used per week, and food rationing. I'll bet no one here remembers why at noon every Saturday the sirens went off! It was to test the sirens and make sure they worked in case of an air raid. This whole country was blacked out every night and there were wardens to check and make sure that no light showed out of the windows so that if a collaborater wanted to signal and give the enemy a landmark to negotiate by they couldn't. You still have the test programs on TV that are left over from when we were afraid and then simply it became available for "emergencies".

Yes! this country has not always been so carefree and safe and comfortable. So count your blessings and fasten your safety belt because we will endure and we won't let anyone take away our freedom at any cost to anyone.

And, you're so right YES! your Dad cares a whole lot, he's worked really hard to help create this wonderful safe place so that his children would never have to know the worst that can happen. We kept our mouths shut because we didn't want the children to worry.

Give him a big hug and let him know you understand. We haven't even gotten close to a real state of alert yet and it might be coming but it's worth it, whatever the costs. Bless this country and pray that our leaders will be wise enough and act at the right times to keep all the children safe.

I heard bin Laden today in his tape which usually is about two weeks prior to a disaster he creates. The leaders of Islam are terrified of him because he has seduced their youngsters into his beliefs and they don't know what to do about it. They want us one more time to take the lead so they can blame us for what's wrong and take the credit for what's right. But, from all I've heard they are even more afraid of him and his soldiers than we are. He is a revolutionary who rules by terror and so are all his followers, they want to take what we have and they don't want to build it for themselves. Israel is an excuse not a reason, the tolerance of the Saudi for us, is a reason to punish them, and so he will steal their children.

When our leaders tell us to go on with our lives and ignore the terror, it's because that's our best weapon and why your Dad, and your Grandfather react they way they do, that's what we really believe is the best answer to every bully. There's no better way to treat a bully than to pretend you didn't even notice.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 07, 2001 at 10:25 PM.]

Kryswyn

Oct. 7, 2001, 07:39 PM

As I drove home today listening to the news of the bombings, I realized I felt very fatalistic about this war. And BTW, am I the only person who has a hard time conceptualizing this ... military action as a War? Vietnam was a War, Korea was a War. This seems a lot less somehow, at least right now.

So anyway, there I am driving and realizing that, for or against, there's nothing I could do to change the outcome. People will die, ours and theirs; good and bad people, soldiers and civilians. Maybe even my nephew.

And then I come here and find IlonaE telling us to shut up about Dubya's accent, word inventions and mannerisms. Nope, sorry, just can't do it. He may be the President, the CinC, and even head of his local lodge. To me he will always be the man I didn't vote for, whose eyes are uncomfortably close together for me to look at for very long, and who has problems with multisyllabic words, who wants women to go back to having backstreet abortions. Who took away financial aid from agencies who gave information about abortion as an alternative.

He doesn't need my support. He has the support of all the people who voted for him. I can honestly say that if given the opportunity to meet him, I'd decline. I have absolutly nothing to say to the man.

The only good thing about this war from my point of view is that it's keeping him focused on foreign affairs. And I'm saving my prayers for the health and long lives of our Supreme Court Justices. I hope each and every one of them lives at least another 8 years.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

brilyntrip

Oct. 7, 2001, 08:00 PM

time in some time Snowbird you got a chuckle out of me concerning your comment about squashing BIN LADEN like a bug !

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 7, 2001, 09:22 PM

edit

LucianCephus

Oct. 8, 2001, 04:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>He eventually escaped with the help of local villagers, who dyed their uniforms to look like civilians <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, talk about heros!

horsluvr

Oct. 8, 2001, 05:31 AM

Kreswyn. Such insightful and mature insights re the president. I wish I had such a deep perspective. I was so ignorant as to focus on policy and personal integrity. Thank you for pointing out all those very important physical limitations that I had overlooked. I always thought beauty was skin deep and ugly went right to the bone. You have driven that point home.

Louise

Oct. 8, 2001, 05:49 AM

Also called Shell-shock in WWI and Battle Fatigue in WWII.

Snowbird, I agree with most of you last post. Now is the time to buckle down and go on with our lives, changed as they may be in the coming days.

But, don't think that all the gallant warriors in past wars didn't suffer trauma from what they saw and did. I don't know whether the fact that they didn't talk about it was good or bad, but I know that if someone I love is suffering from something like that, I want to help, and it is easier to help if you aren't shut away from the problem. By not talking about their stress, our warriors of the past may have thought that they had kept the horrors of war from their loved ones, but, I wonder how it affected all of them in less direct ways.

I would hope, that if our people involved in this war suffer from the mental anguish that people have suffered from in the past, they would reach out for all the help that is available.

ohnowwhat

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horsluvr:
Kreswyn. Such insightful and mature insights re the president. I wish I had such a deep perspective. I was so ignorant as to focus on policy and personal integrity. Thank you for pointing out all those very important physical limitations that I had overlooked. I always thought beauty was skin deep and ugly went right to the bone. You have driven that point home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Driven the point home? Amen to that.

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:31 AM

edit

Magnolia

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Who was it that posted we should drop food to the Afghans? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do believe that was our friend the lovely Hobson! I'm so glad our government has chosen to do that for the people of Afghanistan. I hope they are getting the food, not the Taliban people. Is there even a precedent for dropping food on "enemy" lines?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Maybe God will hear our prayers and one of the boxes of food will land right on bin Laden's head and squash him like a bug. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Teehee. Good one snowbird. First, I hope he gets a bag of those Olestra chips and munches them all down and gets a big case of "intestinal distress".

Magnolia

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:47 AM

I think we are long past the debate over Dubya's accent, (and on to Clinton's IQ) and the posts about Fabio and Peeps are pretty funny and might even serve to give some people a chuckle that need a chuckle.
If the topic bothers people, well, they can choose not to look at it anymore! What I see now is a good thing, heck, Snowbird even complimented Hobson's idea! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

DMK

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:51 AM

Excellent post Louise!

Yes, of course, veterans of war have ALWAYS suffered from the horrors of that war. We know that veterans of the Napoleanic wars and Civil War suffered from it, and affects of all wars since themn are widely documented. Undoubtedly soldiers in the Roman armies suffered from it.

The only thing that is different today is that we (all those "other" people who were NOT exposed to the sacrifices these people made in the name of our freedom) now recognize that such sacrifices come at a profoundly personal price. And there is no shame in that price. And that there is some degree and treatment for that price.

Here's hoping that someone may never feel like they have to be afraid and ashamed of their pain and fear, when defending our nation was the reason they might suffer such a condition. Here is a thanks to all the people in the last 40 years who recognized that treatment and acceptance was a better option than repression and social exile.

Snowbird

Oct. 8, 2001, 10:01 AM

I never said that was no stress syndrome, nor did I say everyone escaped it. What I said was it was our way to protect ourselves at that time. We didn't dwell on the negatives and we put in in the back of our minds.

Sure, there were lot's of men on the front line faced with the dead body of their friends and buddies that cracked. Sure looking some guy in the eye and knowing he wants you dead, or knowing that you had killed a human being was traumatic and caused lots of problems, but none of those problems would have been better if they got up on talk shows and advertised their problems. Better left where it was, as something that happened and was over.

Viet Nam and Korea were never declared to be wars. This is a war and we will win it.

DMK

Oct. 8, 2001, 10:26 AM

Please Snowbird, there is a big difference between going on Jerry Springer versus seeing a trained therapist or not feeling as if you have to hide the mere fact that you have a problem from your family. No more generalizations indeed!

Interesting point about Vietnam and Korea. While I agree that this is a different kettle of fish, has their been a formal declaration of war?

Oct. 8, 2001, 10:38 AM

Well, I'm a big believer in the "gut-it-out" school, too. And no believer at all in psychotherapy, psychiatric social workers, psychologists or psychiatrists. Seems to me, the emphasis in those fields is on "psycho" and the practioners are the best examples. But that's JMHO.

I also want to express my support of our unique way of waging war against Oslimy Been Lyin' and the Tali-me-banana - going after the terrorists while trying to alleviate the lot of the civilian population. Way to go!

Snowbird

Oct. 8, 2001, 02:13 PM

In the 1940's after having been totally involved in a war and at that level of sophistication, I don't think there was such a thing as a counselor, there was your religious advisor, perhaps a psychiatrist and some newly conceived psycho-analyists, mostly based on the Freudian school.

Even if there were such people they certainly were not what was commonly accepted as they are today.

Heidi

Oct. 8, 2001, 05:26 PM

This newly-evolved and tangental topic is soooo unrelated to anything else on this thread but, pt, as the sister of a schizophrenic, it's quaint that you believe that we should tough it out through the hardships in our lives but for many, it's not even a remote possibility.

Bertie

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:33 PM

My father served in the Army Air Corps in WWII which was the Air Force back then. He never spoke much of the details of war. But what he did speak about, often and tirelessly, was the pride in this country that the war left him with. We are so lucky, he would say. He'd seen the lifestyles in remote parts of the world, and he was adament that we should never take this country for granted.

He never flew again after the War. Even though he lived another 55 years, and even if he needed to travel for business, it was always by car or train. Strange for a man who spent several years of his life aboard airplanes.

Clearly the war left him with a fear that he internalized and lived with for the rest of his life. Maybe counseling would have helped him get past his fear, but it was part of his psyche that he had no desire to mess with. And of course, he had no need to travel across the ocean. He was quite happy to stay in the States forever, where anywhere he needed to be could be reached on the ground /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I so wish he was still with us to see the great burst of patriotism. And I wish I could get his read on the whole situation, as he was such a smart guy and a great teacher.

Sorry for rambling, but this thread has reminded me that his war diaries are still in the house somewhere. I will find them and read them with a new awareness now.

"Always speak your mind, but ride a fast horse" -- Texas Bix Bender

Duffy

Oct. 8, 2001, 06:49 PM

My father was in the thick of things during WWII. He does not talk about it. He received a Purple Heart and either a Bronze or Silver Star. It's been so long since we "didn't" talk about them, I'm not sure which... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

He would make up stories about how he got those awards, rather than talk about what really happened. My favorite was when he caught Eisenhower as he fell from a helicopter. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It is true that back in those days, "therapy" as we know it today, was not accessible, nor was it acceptable. I wish that it had been, but thinking about how my dad feels about any kind of doctor, I tend to doubt whether he would have sought help in the way of release/whatever anyway.

I don't know how his experience has manifested itself in his life. But, I do know that it must have, and probably still does in some way, shape or fashion.

He and my stepmother had planned on a trip to an island off the coast of France, departing from Kennedy on September 14th. Needless to say, their flight was cancelled. He was furious. He did not want those blanketyblanks to "win".

They did go for their vacation and just got back last week. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M. O'Connor

Oct. 8, 2001, 07:10 PM

<<a formal declaration of war?>>

I believe that the closest thing to a formal declaration was the President's address to the joint session of Congress, in which he formalized his intention to destroy the capabilities of terror organizations with worldwide reach...

In order to formally declare war, I believe it is necessary to do battle with an actual entitiy, which in the traditional sense would be another nation state--though the Taliban harbors the terrorists, it isn't a government recognized by the US...and the battle against terrorism will not, as I understand it, necessarily be confined to Afghanistan...I don't guess my understanding of the situation is any more clear than the next person's...it has been promised that this will be a war unlike any other, and so far, that has been pretty accurate...

Re: insurance, DMK, I stand in awe! How anyone can make sense of any part of that business is beyond me...I went to the ER twice last winter while we were in Ocala, each time one of the girls had cut a finger (unrelated incidents, I swear I am a fit mother!); the first time we ended up with no stiches, just a band aid, the second no stiches, and a fancier bandage...the first visit ended up being $125 for the ER plus $120 for the doctor, and the second was $220 and $85 for the doctor...so basically, it was $245 for the first bandaid, and $315 for the second. I really think that this was a tad expensive, despite the fact that we do have insurance, I don't think it was too great that the ins company paid these overpriced bills so quickly...

IlonaE--after I read your beautiful post on the other thread, I couldn't believe my eyes reading that you think this thread should be shut down...don't you get it? Our forces are over there fighting so that we CAN engage in free discussions...and I'd be hard pressed to find a freeer one than this (freeer? 3e's in a row?)! I think we are a fine example of freedom, and can be proud of our discussion and the wide range of views expressed here. Not to mention that unless I have overlooked something, this seems to be the COTH BB's all time most popular thread in terms of number of views....

SLW

Oct. 8, 2001, 07:32 PM

Do you think holding in war stories is a "guy" thing? I ask this because two women whom I worked with back in Virginia that were German, and had survived WW2, come quickly to mind.

One was a young girl whose home was bombed in Colonge. She shared with me how her family survived living in the basement until help could arrive. She also shared how unimportant material things became in her life. Yet she was the first to hug, share a saucy joke and enjoy a good laugh.

Another woman and her family, she a child of 14 at the time, were captured by the SS and sent into a camp. Horrible things happened there to her and her family. She eventually escaped and hid in rural barns and towns on her own. I can't imagine having the wits about me at age 14 to be able to do that!

They were very forthcoming, yet did not complain, about how their lives were altered during the war. In the end, each married an American serviceman and became American citizens.

SLW

Snowbird

Oct. 8, 2001, 08:03 PM

It was the way that generation saw their role. I was part of that generation and while I never believed there would be a generation gap, I see it today.

I'm not judging which is better or worse, I only wish you all could understand there is more than one point of view. We did have a different view and I guess I'm trying to understand these changes. I think that the BB is sort of my compromise with what I always believed. A little private sharing of opinions.

Ann

Oct. 9, 2001, 12:29 AM

Well, since you're on the topic of veterans and how they deal with the stress of war I thought I'd include my grandfather's story...unlike the others mentioned he was a veteran of WWI not WWII (he fought for England and became a father late in life.)

When he was still in his teens he was assigned to drive tanks on the front; dangerous because tanks were a target and the enemies would try to explode the whole thing by dropping a grenade through the top. He also was poisoned with mustard gas. (explanation of the effects from a history web site: "The skin of victims of mustard gas blistered, the eyes became very sore and they began to vomit. Mustard gas caused internal and external bleeding and attacked the bronchial tubes, stripping off the mucous membrane. This was extremely painful and most soldiers had to be strapped to their beds. It usually took a person four or five weeks to die of mustard gas poisoning.")

He did fulfill his tour of duty and received medals for bravery, but his nerves were shattered. Of course, back then medical assistance available to veterans was strictly for physical and not psychological needs. He did recover in time and went on to live a normal life. I can't imagine going through all he did at such a young age; I'm glad there's a greater awareness today of the need to treat the after-effects of that kind of severe stress.

Probably the reason men don't like to talk about it is because they are afraid of being ridiculed for not being manly enough to overcome their fear...I'm ashamed my father actually did just that when when my grandfather once mentioned having a breakdown as a result of his war experiences.

[This message was edited by Ann on Oct. 09, 2001 at 04:08 AM.]

M. O'Connor

Oct. 9, 2001, 03:36 AM

The mind has an amazing ability to heal itself...it's my feeling that some are more comfortable with the concept of sharing and examination of the process than others; I wonder if any studies have been done on the differences between recovery rates of those who are more open vs those who have allowed unpleasant memories to receed naturally and be replaced by more recent good experiences. Of course this is not to diminish the importance of therapy and medication for those who require such treatments for traumatic stress and other mental disorders (such as ADS and schizophrenia), but it is interesting to note the comments of the many experts consulted by the media on traumatic stress after 9/11; several of these stated that a majority of those affected by TMS would recover naturally in time with no treatment, and that statistically, only a minority (about 10 percent according to more than one report) might find it necessary to seek counseling in order to speed recovery. I do believe that Snowbird is right about this particular issue being viewed differently according to generational differences, is this not, however what is refererred to as a "truism?" I mean, isn't every issue viewed this way?

For those not fortunate (or should I say privileged) enough to be acquainted with a veteran of war who doesn't mind sharing the experieces of participation in such an undertaking, certainly "The Greatest Generation" by Tom Brokaw is a must-read, and "Saving Private Ryan" is a must-see.

SLW

Oct. 9, 2001, 06:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
The mind has an amazing ability to heal itself...it's my feeling that some are more comfortable with the concept of sharing and examination of the process than others; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting and much more on track than my "guy verses girl" idea, thanks. I have seen SPR, own the TB book and still gasp when I watch the documentary on "Doolittle's Raiders" and listen to the horrors which men endured after the Japanese caught some of them.

SLW

hobson

Oct. 9, 2001, 06:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pt:
Well, I'm a big believer in the "gut-it-out" school, too. And no believer at all in psychotherapy, psychiatric social workers, psychologists or psychiatrists. Seems to me, the emphasis in those fields is on "psycho" and the practioners are the best examples. But that's JMHO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heidi, I also have a schizophrenic in the family. Ironically, pt, my Uncle Frank would agree with you. He believes that his medications and therapy really interfere with his natural ability to resist the secret radio waves that the Soviets are beaming into his brain. He also thinks that if he was not hospitalized, he could better get even with the parish priest and family dog who conspired to kill his mother. He thinks an aluminum-foil helmet would serve him better than all the psychiatrists.

Do you also believe that cancer patients or pneumonia sufferers should "gut it out" as well, or are you just skeptical that the brain is vulnerable to disease?

hobson

Oct. 9, 2001, 08:01 AM

It seems that during the bombing raids on Kabul, our military personnel managed to hit a UN agency building, killing four UN workers. I can't imagine the UN will be pleased...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,1-2001351773,00.html

HeyYouNags

Oct. 9, 2001, 08:55 AM

The U.N. has had to stop delivering food aid because of the military strikes. So, even though the U.S. is air dropping meals, without the U.N. aid, there's actually less food being delivered to starving people in Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28328-2001Oct8.html

Inverness

Oct. 9, 2001, 09:42 AM

As much as I enjoy reading the varying viewpoints expressed in the this thread, I need a mental health break. Suffice it to say that I'm "calling in sick."

In the not too distant future I'll return to be astounded and perplexed by Snowbird's revisionist history lessons and obsession with the Oral (I mean "Oval") Office, JumpHigh83's flair for punctuating each retort with a personal insult, and IlonaE's unfortunate displays of incivility.

I cannot help but believe that the tone of bitterness and hostility in many of your remarks only succeeds in obscuring your valid contributions to the larger discussion. Why set out to offend those who you would seek to inform and persuade? Wouldn't calm, well-founded, and rational discourse be a more effective vehicle for your opinions? Why aim to wound and disparage when to do so only belittles your own passionately-held beliefs? Those passionate beliefs - borne of life experience and contemplation - are so much more effectively expressed in the absence of ugliness and ire.

Ironically, I think if we were to meet in person I would probably like all of you despite the differing political and societal paths we are compelled to follow. I have no doubt that at heart we are all good, compassionate people who love and want the best for our country. At the moment, however, I am too overwhelmed by the violence that has been forced upon our nation to willingly subject myself to even more hostility and mean-spirited invective on this thread.

I'll see you all when I regain my strength, composure, and faith in the essential goodness of mankind. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

M. O'Connor

Oct. 9, 2001, 09:52 AM

Inverness is suffering from TFS--"topic fatigue syndrome"

Take two hacks through the woods, sit back on the hay, and you'll feel better by morning feed.

Snowbird

Oct. 9, 2001, 09:58 AM

That is not the issue at all, what it was is the "Power of Positive Thinking". If you had that we believed that it would prevent many diseases, since the brain controls so much more of our body mechanics than we understand it could be right.

In any case the idea was not to dwell on what was bad, what was unpleasant and unavoidable. If you worry and worrying can find a solution then to worry is fine, but if you can not have a solution to a problem that way then you ignored it and hopefully it would improve. Remember that old saying your grandmom used to say all the time, "Every dark cloud, has a silver lining". You ride out the bad days hoping you can hold the line, so that when it turns around you will be in a position to move ahead again.

Taken in the context of the time it was and is quite believable. For example under hypnosis you can control the flow of blood from your body and feeling pain. I suspect that in the way of the brain, it produced some anti-stress chemicals that somehow relieved the stress. Please, remember it was a differnt time 50 years ago and we didn't have the same information about medications and diseases, or medical cures that were available.

But, even today what good does it do to dwell on and concentrate on the bad things instead of the better side. For example probably there were some civilians unfortunately in the wrong place. We don't know if that was true, we have the word of the Taliban, and we know they lie.

The United Nations is not able to deliver food because they left Afghanistan, we can either dwell on the problems that creates or we can try to mediate the situation. We are trying to deliver food, isn't that better than doing nothing at all?

Suppose we didn't take any action, would the world be better off? Yes, we've been wrong before but was it a deliberate attempt to ruin the country or did we all hope it would work out better? Should we spend our efforts on what's wrong? or what we that's right?

The anxiety that you have because you can only see the wrongs cause the stress and irritations that break down the body and the mind. I remember the first lecture I had in college about psychotics. And, again before you jump down my throat remember this was a long time ago.

Anyway the concept of the problem was this, if someone imagined he was Napoleon, and he was happy being Napoleon did we have the right to fix it so he had to face the fact that he really was a nobody? Was he better off? Was he happier?

Essentially we all have defense mechanisms and some are more extreme and some are less extreme. In reality there is no such thing as "normal", we all exist somewhere on the probability curve. The schizophrenic living in his world if he is happy with his defenses has every right not to be cured to be like the rest of us who are centrous on the curve. The only reason they are different is because there are more of us than there are of them.

OK! now you can really jump up and down and scream but remember these beliefs in the context of their time. If we find an aboriginal people somewhere that have been isolated from the progress of our time, should we alter them to conform? Should we insist they wear shoes and wear three piece suits?

Ann

Oct. 9, 2001, 10:14 AM

M. O'Connor, I completely agree with you...people can be amazingly resilient, and the mind does have a way of healing itself in cases of post-traumatic stress syndrome, with or without therapy. I even think in some cases too much self-analysis encourages people to dwell on bad experiences to the point it weakens them and makes it harder for them to get back to the business of living. (note I'm not referring to inherited mental illnesses.)

I'm in awe of people who pull together the resolve to overcome horrific wartime experiences and return to life as normal. It is a remarkable demonstration of the will of the human spirit to survive, and certainly gives some perspective to so many of the things we gripe about in our own lives. I'm glad to see so much support for the military in the current situation with Afghanistan.

Oct. 9, 2001, 10:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do you also believe that cancer patients or pneumonia sufferers should "gut it out" as well, or are you just skeptical that the brain is vulnerable to disease? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hobson, you have such a gift for the ridiculous! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Obviously, physical ailments need treatment. Obviously someone who is hearing voices that tell him to kill all redheads over age 10 needs to be prevented from acting upon his "instructions." However, even psycho-practitioners admit that their field is a "soft" science - not readily measurable by tangible scientific methods.

Read Snowbird's first paragraph and Ann's post - what they said.

IMO, there is far too much dwelling on emotional stresses, and too many excuses for poor behaviour based on same. There is value in expressing one's feelings, but only so far - in the past, ministers, family members or friends served the function of listening posts, now there is an entire industry based upon that function. The Cherokee had a custom, that anyone could repeat their story up to 5 times. After that, you were expected to get on with your life. An emotional trauma didn't excuse you from the responsibilities of living.

I have suffered from depression for many years. What works best for me in fighting it, is to stiffen my upper lip, feed my beasties, do my job, look for ways to help others and generally get on with it.

So maybe it's whatever works for you.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 9, 2001, 10:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Inverness:

I cannot help but believe that the tone of bitterness and hostility in many of your remarks only succeeds in obscuring your valid contributions to the larger discussion. Why set out to offend those who you would seek to inform and persuade? Wouldn't calm, well-founded, and rational discourse be a more effective vehicle for your opinions? Why aim to wound and disparage when to do so only belittles your own passionately-held beliefs? Those passionate beliefs - borne of life experience and contemplation - are so much more effectively expressed in the absence of ugliness and ire.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So TRUE. When someone resorts to such nasty comments, I automatically dismiss everything else they say as hogwash, even though there may be good points hidden within the ugliness. When I found out Rush L. made fun of little 13 year old Chelsea Clinton, I never listened to another word he said. BTW too bad it wasn't his voice he lost instead of his hearing.

I went away for a while and came back and read many interesting posts.

Snowbird, I hope you realize that the reason you are so healthy is because you are lucky, and not because cigarettes aren't bad for you. I agree with you in that I don't want "Big Brother" telling me what to do, what to eat, but has that really happened? I mean, really, I eat what I choose to. Big Brother is not telling me what to eat. There are newspaper articles that talk about nutrition, but they're just articles, not "big brother". There are the government guidelines, the pyramid and all, but hey, they are guidelines, not the law. I guess I'm not paranoid. I can also relate to you in being annoyed at paying higher rates for health insurance. I remember when my rate went up just because I hit 35. I was SO upset. I am very health conscious. I eat well, I do yoga, I exersize and here I was paying the same as my very less than health conscious friend, who was overweight, couch potato, smoker, etc. So unfair! Anyway, don't know what to do about that. But regarding your comment "a chocolate cookie is a chocolate cookie".....well, I'm guessing that is because you are a smoker. Not only is it well documented, but from my own personal experience, smoking deadens your taste buds. I was at a wine tasting; you see my husband and I do love to taste wine & food, come up with tantalizing combinations, etc., it's fun; and his sister had a cigarrette, so we did too (OK, I smoke about 3 times a year) and then went back to tasting and UG, I couldn't taste anything. What a waste!!! So anyway, you really are a statistical anomaly, not the norm. My grandmother died from smoking (emphysema)before she turned 72, and it's pretty common. (But it doesn't mean I think smoking should be banned or anything DAG.)

I was also interested in reading other's war stories. My mother was bombed during WWII and said it was pretty darn horrifying. She also has not talked about it much until recently. I mean it's as horrible as you can think, getting up every day to pick up the pieces, finding out someone you know is dead. And then after the war, there was very little food. She's German, so doesn't always get the sympathy. They lost their wealth, their estate of many generations in East Prussia, but that wasn't the worse part. The worse part was being hungry after the war or not being able to cope. Who knows what it was, but my Grandfather survived being a POW, but he couldn't survive life after war. People didn't talk. I don't know if it is a generational thing, a German thing, a European thing or just war.

And regarding IQ, I hate going by that. I think grades and high IQ mean you are REALLY good at taking tests. Sometimes you are brilliant too, but high IQ does not equal brilliance (in my book /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) But, many people, including respected Republicans, happen to think Clinton is brilliant, smart, funny and engaging, and I think they are right. And regarding what does "is" mean. OH GAWD, if you heard that proceding, it was absolutely ridiculous. The questions they were asking!!! Ask a ridiculous question and I bet you'll get a ridiculous answer. NO, he didn't want to admit to an affair. What politician would?

maybe I should get back to work?
Betsy (in MD)

hobson

Oct. 9, 2001, 10:59 AM

Indeed, pt...my best pal is a psychotherapist, and she has many clients whom she describes as needing "slap upside the head" therapy. She rescues a lot of marriages by pointing out the obvious to obtuse couples who think that screaming and name-calling is a good way to make someone respect you more. I would heartily agree that there are a lot of weasly, lazy thinkers who are looking for any excuse for poor behavior.

On the other hand, for many people who aren't lucky enough to have your personal resources, a therapist is sometimes the only thing standing between them and joblessness/homelessness/suicide. Back in the 80's the state of PA decided that the mentally ill really just needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and closed down most of the state mental hospitals--these would be the people who are now wandering around the streets in my downtown neighborhood eating out of my trash, crapping all over themselves and screaming about the giant mosquitoes.

Jumphigh83

Oct. 9, 2001, 11:20 AM

Thank you. Although I would disagree with that assessment.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Oct. 9, 2001, 11:22 AM

On the other hand, for many people who aren't lucky enough to have your personal resources, a therapist is sometimes the only thing standing between them and joblessness/homelessness/suicide.

Jeez, Hobson - what personal resources? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Last year I sent my shotgun to live at a friend's house because it was looking entirely too attractive as a solution. However, I absolutely think there is too great a tendency today to encourage people to be weak, rather than to help them to find their strength. Maybe because the "New World Order" will be more easily implemented upon the weak?

Back in the 80's the state of PA decided that the mentally ill really just needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and closed down most of the state mental hospitals--these would be the people who are now wandering around the streets in my downtown neighborhood eating out of my trash, crapping all over themselves and screaming about the giant mosquitoes.

Yup, those people come under the same heading as the people who hear voices - there are people who need to be prevented from harming themselves or others. And I was not at all in favor of the Reagan administration's closing of mental facilities for those unfortunates.

Even Freud said that most people suffer from simple unhappiness, and there isn't anything psycho-whatever can do to help that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

N&B&T

Oct. 9, 2001, 12:13 PM

hobson and HYN, would it be difficult for you to re-post your information about the UN workers and the food drops on the "So it's war..." thread?

I'm glad (at least, I think I'm glad!) this thread wasn't closed but it has really become a thread for all reasons. Posts directly related to the war might get the attention and focussed discussion which they warrant on the other thread.

M. O'Connor, may I respectfully disagree with your diagnosis of TFS (topic fatigue syndrome)? I think that Inverness is rather suffering from PTPS (post traumatic post syndrome), an entirely different condition. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Whatever condition you are in, Inverness, I heartily agree with you, and hope you recover and rejoin us soon. Maybe on the "So it's war..." thread.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 9, 2001, 12:59 PM

NP Fisher-
Are you saying that the rest of the Middle Eastern/Central Asian studies group has left the building, and they didn't even tell Hobson and me where they were going?

Crap, there goes my A average.

N&B&T

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:03 PM

I hope you're not calling me a multiple personality??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

No, I just thought it might be a good idea to separate the war posts out of the (very interesting) general discussion threads...maybe it's a terrible idea...whatever works best!

hobson

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:04 PM

Yeah, HYN, what's up with that? Are we being kicked out of this thread? We're topic fugitives!

Erin

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:07 PM

Actually, I think I'm going to have to rein in this topic a bit... while discussion of every contentious issue under the sun is nice and all, we are still a horsey forum. I'm allowing leeway for Sept. 11/war-related discussion, but I think debating the merits of psychotherapy is probably a wee bit too far off the path. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm not entirely sure what the topic is, but do try to stay on it, please. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hobson

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:14 PM

You've been awfully generous to have let us ramble on this far off the original topic, Erin. HeyYouNags, shall we pop over to the other thread, then?

HeyYouNags

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:25 PM

Okay, I'll wander over, too. Last one in this thread, please turn off the lights.

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:33 PM

I did say that feeding the beasties helps keep me on track - that's horse related! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

N&B&T

Oct. 9, 2001, 01:49 PM

And Erin herself did say "rein"...I wasn't trying to stop or quash this discussion but only to encourage discussion of the war separately...sorry guys!

Erin

Oct. 9, 2001, 02:00 PM

I don't mind if the thread continues... it just needs to stay a little more on its off-topic topic, if that makes any sense. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M. O'Connor

Oct. 9, 2001, 02:41 PM

<<M. O'Connor, may I respectfully disagree with your diagnosis of TFS [topic fatigue syndrome)? I think that Inverness is rather suffering from PTPS [post traumatic post syndrome), an entirely different condition. >>

Oh lordy, not that! Could be serious...shame on me for missing all the warning signs...

Erin, the horse part is that we are all horse people, using the other half of our brains--which a large percentage of the non horse crowd in our lives had considered to be long dead...We have shocked them by becomming immersed in deep thinking and expression of likewise worthy thoughts....this is an equestrian resurection of sorts, proving beyond all doubt that those who muck daily toil not in ignorance, but yay we see the light over yonder manure pile...we do not toss hay flakes carelessly, but seek wisdom by tuning our radios to NPR in the waning hours of twilight, Considering All Things, great and small...hey, is anyone here? HELLO??? Ahoy!!

(((ECHO OF SILENCE IN THE EMPTY THREAD)))) gee, guess I'll mosey on over to see where the rest of the off-topic has gone...

But first, Erin, isn't this a record beating thread? Is it in the guinness book of COTH threads? Or did some fluff topic last longer?

Erin

Oct. 9, 2001, 02:48 PM

We've had much longer fluff topics/clique ramblings/etc. This is the longest topic of substance that I can remember. Even the infamous Bush vs. Gore epic topped out in the high 20s, I think. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

halfhalt

Oct. 10, 2001, 07:18 AM

Re opening a can of worms, should we change that to opening a can of 3-bean salad? i hear that is the "food aid" being dropped....personally, i think that gesture is more for domestic consumption ie by american citizens back home not for any actual good it can do, under the circumstances....ok, flame suit well secured.

Magnolia

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:16 AM

I sort of agree that it is kind of symbolic, not practical. I wonder how the people are getting it? I have a feeling the Taliban military is consuming it. But it is nice to know that something is being attempted to at least help the innocent people.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

pinkhorse

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:24 AM

Now, put yourself in the shoes (?) of an Afghani -you've possibly heard the news that the USA is the seat of evil. You've been bombed and mined to smithereens already. Now yellow boxes fall from the sky. Perhaps it lands near you. (Mostly likely they'll all rot away in the sun.) Would you touch it???

Heidi

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:26 AM

I was watching Nightline last night and they actually explained the contents of the food rations. Each ration contains 2200 calories (sufficient for a 'moderately starving' person), is meat-free (not to offend Muslim diets) and is comprised of rice, beans, crackers, and peanut butter.

Yes, there has been criticism of the effectiveness of the food drops - I also watched an interview with the head of Doctors Without Borders who thinks the food should be distributed on the ground on Afghani soil.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:33 AM

according to the dude I was just listening to on NPR (sorry for being so vague) dropping food out of airplanes is very ineffective for various reasons. It needs to be distributed on the ground from trucks. I think it's better than doing nothing. Wonder what we could do to befriend the Afganis? I can't imagine Russia has done anything for them; they kind of left them in a big mess.
Betsy (in MD)

SoEasy

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:34 AM

I think that as soon as the ground is a safe place to be again, we will be increasing the amount of food aid being distributed there ... I heard on NPR this morning that a lot of wheat was being sent across the border in the east ...

Erin

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:36 AM

I had read something (from before the attacks) about how they planned to also provide supplies to merchants who travel into Afghanistan (from Pakistan, maybe?) with the idea that flooding the markets would help lower food prices.

Sorry I'm so vague on the details... it's probably from the Washington Post article I linked to earlier in this topic. Anyway, point is, there were plans for things other than air drops -- haven't heard anything about whether or not those plans had actually been put in place or if they were working.

Louise

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:36 AM

Maybe they should dust off the "How we did the Berlin Airlift" books. If we could feed a whole city back then, surely we can get lots more food into this area today.

Oct. 10, 2001, 09:54 AM

SIGH - more of the "damned if we do, damned if we don't" group heard from.

jparkes

Oct. 10, 2001, 10:03 AM

Bush Says Lawmakers Leak Secrets,
Restricts Access and Then Offers Truce
By Carolyn Skorneck Associated Press Writer
Published: Oct 10, 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush, in a breakfast meeting with chastened lawmakers Wednesday, backed off his decision severely restricting congressional briefings on the war against terrorists. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota pledged that members of Congress were committed to handling sensitive information with "more discipline and greater discretion."
"The president's made his point. We all are going to be careful," said Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott of Mississippi.
Bush, the lawmakers said, offered a truce: Congressional committees on armed services and foreign relations will continue to be briefed on anti-terror diplomatic and military operations. Bush "also authorized others to come and share information with the general membership about the operations ongoing in Afghanistan," Daschle said.
The administration will maintain a distinction between operational secrecy and "oversight, overview information that Congress needs to do its job," said White House press secretary Ari Fleischer.
In what has become a weekly breakfast huddle with the president, Lott, Daschle, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., and House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., met at the White House Wednesday to discuss with Bush his angry accusation that lawmakers leaked secrets to the news media last week, just before the U.S. attacks on Afghanistan.
Those leaks prompted Bush to order his Cabinet secretaries, CIA director and FBI director to brief only the four congressional leaders plus the chairmen and vice chairmen of the intelligence committees.
"I intend to protect our troops," the president said Tuesday, when asked about the order outlined in an Oct. 5 memo.
"It is unacceptable behavior to leak classified information when we have troops at risk."
Just after Bush made that statement during an appearance in the Rose Garden, one lawmaker who would be barred from the briefings, California Rep. Tom Lantos of California, top Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, showed the president a law that requires the State Department to keep his panel and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee "fully and currently informed with respect to all activities and responsibilities within the jurisdiction of these committees."
And Daschle on Tuesday had insisted Congress must be able to carry out its constitutional oversight role, and that means several committees must get secret information.
Speaking outside the White House Wednesday, Lott agreed that information on the anti-terror operations and their effectiveness "is the sort of thing we need to know to know how we can be prepared for the future."
Rep. Bob Stump, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said he had no objection to being excluded from the top secret briefings.
"My philosophy is the fewer people who know about some of these things, the better off we are," Stump, R-Ariz., said in an interview Tuesday. "I firmly believe in the need to know. Many times, there really is no need to know."
A few grumbled, however, at potentially being kept out of the loop.
"I understand there may be some heartburn on Capitol Hill," Bush said, "but I suggest if they want to relieve that heartburn they take their positions very seriously, and that they take any information that they've been given by our government very seriously because this is serious business we're talking about."

I would love to know which congress person opened their big mouth to the media. They should not be allowed to be re-elected when the time comes.
As the ol' saying goes...."loose lips sinks ships"