Bush opens up a can of whoop a$$ [Archive] - Page 2

rockstar

Sep. 25, 2001, 06:50 PM

IloneE...

I can't help it. I am trying really hard not to take the offense you intended in your post, but you definitely hit me where it hurt. I spent a good portion of my college career devoted to working for various political causes instead of "hanging out" and being devoted to schoolwork like the rest of my normal friends. When you insult what I do, I take it pretty hard because I often question if I wouldn't have been better off just enjoying "the college experience" and waitressing or something like everyone else until it was time to graduate and join the private sector. I've always put aside those doubts because I knew I was working for causes I believed in and that I was making a difference, even if it was very small. The way you so coldly dismiss public servants and politics stings. Congrats.

In one post you call those (including me) in politics "egolomaniacs" who need to be rooted by voters "out of the beltway" so that they can get a "real job". You also call politicians and their aids "the worst leaders". But then you say in another post "the good people in public service". It must be the the evil Washington fumes getting to my head, but I don't follow.

Where/how do you seperate politicians from public servants from "egolomaniacs" inside the beltway??

And by all means, explain what about me being involved in politics makes me an egolomaniac? Damn me for seeing flaws in our government and wanting to take an ACTIVE role in fixing the holes and making the whole thing better instead of just complaining about it or wanting to do away with the whole thing all together. I came to Washington for two reasons. (1)It's a gorgeous city steeped in history and American beauty that I fell in love with the moment I first drove across the Potomac and into Washington's arms via the Memorial Bridge. (2)I had (and have!) a deep love and appreciation for this country's governing system and I knew that I had to get involved in american government.

The role I have chosen (and there were hundreds of options ranging from policy making to public opinion assesing) has involved working to elect to and keep in federal and local offices men and women I believe in as policy makers and leaders.

It's certainly not the money (most jobs in politics NOT on the corporate side, i.e. lobbying, pay dirt), power (only the few and the elite really have it) or the recognition (only the top elected officials get it and they, in turn, don't give much to those of us who slave for them) that gets most of us in politics here and elsewhere, to work 60 hours+ a week and barely have a social life. The motivation is a compelling need to see for ourselves what's REALLY happening in government and then attempt to change what we don't like and keep what we see as good.

And I realize that it is at this point that I absolutely MUST stop talking about me and Washington before I really DO become appear to be an egolomanic. Suffice it to say, insult my views? Fine! I love how we all differ in opinion. Insult my role? NOT fine! Good way to really get to me though.

One more thing... I said what's happened has made me realize that I was MORE patriotic than I previously knew... I didn't say I wasn't very patriotic to begin with.

Magnolia

Sep. 25, 2001, 06:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>we are being tricked into blaming bin laden,
>afganistan, and the whole bit. this goes to the heart
>of the three free boys. aren't they sly ? pitching a
>war and a battle cry to the world audiance, ruffle
>some fathers, remind us who is in control, put one
>half of the globe against the other, strike perfect
>fear in peoples' hearts, help boost an idiots approval
>rating, save his ass and the economy that is stuffed
>up it, confuse the already bewildered, and take
>another blood soiled step in their devilish scheme.
>aren't they clever ? terrorists indeed, intergalactic
>schematics on a scale greater than our puny minds can
>comprehend. the stage is ripe with anticipation, bring
>it on ! let's show 'em how big, bad, and tough we are
>! let's remind them of who's in charge. and then let's
>tell them the truth. indeed they are tricky.
>everyone pointing the finger at the ground mongers,
>never thinking to look up. may tricks my friend, may
>tricks. but they don't fool me. tri and tri as they
>might, they still shall lose the fight. so - let them
>play their earth games, i am playing on a field that
>they cannot disrupt. no, not anymore. i have the best
>allie ever imagined. just remember - confusion,
>hatred, inustice, seperatism, f.e.a.r. ( false
>existence appearing real ), and spiritual rot are
>their focus, their game plan, and their fuel. cut off
>the source and they are defeated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes, from a friend of a friend who thinks the aliens inserted a chip in his brain. However, a good example of the distrust many people feel for our government...

and for all the crazy garbage he spouts, this line is wonderful and is how we must fight terror

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> just remember - confusion,
>hatred, inustice, seperatism, f.e.a.r. ( false
>existence appearing real ), and spiritual rot are
>their focus, their game plan, and their fuel. cut off
>the source and they are defeated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rockstar

Sep. 25, 2001, 07:13 PM

Relating to the posts of Page 11 on the thread...

DMK... I loved your summary history of the rock people and land!!!

To add on to your history and to get involved in what you, Hobson, Midge and Pacificsolo were all going through concerning our past role in Afghanistan...

Did anyone watch the Discovery channel/BBC special called "Behind the Terror"? I thought the information it provided on the area and its history was fantastic.

What was most interesting, I found, was its discusssion of our role in Afghanistan's war of Soviet resistance. We went in there and, as DMK wrote, defended the "rock people" from the evil communists. We armed the Afghanis and turned them into a well trained and brutally effective army. And then, once communism was fought off, we just left. That was it. A former congressman summed it up best when he said in the special, "It [leaving Afghanistan] was one of the worst mistakes we made." You can't fight someone's battle and then hightail it when the fighting is done... there is so much more to follow! I wish I could understand how we thought it was prudent to leave a country that was completely in disrepair. We have certainly paid the price now I guess. (BTW... I am cognizant of the fact that we didn't/havn't left Afghanistan completely alone... I am fully aware that many billions in foreign aid has been sent... but they needed more than money to get on track).

One problem I am quite worried about is how we are going to have Pakistan and the anti- taliban northern alliance on our side at the same time. The northern alliance hates the pakistani government for being non-sympathtic to its resistance movement and providing aid in all forms (particularly military intelligence) to the Taliban regime. It's hard to imagine both sides suddenly uniting as one anti-taliban force under the coalition we're building.

And another thing I am very concerned over...

Ok, so rooting out all terrorists is just great. I'm all for it... get em'!!! HOWEVER, that won't be solving the problem. What angered these people to begin with (the threat of the West) is still there. We can go on blaming everything on the terrorists... but that won't change what caused them to resort to such violence to begin with... and what's to prevent future terrorists from reeking more havoc if we don't get fix what's making them so very mad?

I've got a bad bug problem in my new apartment... it goes with the territory of being in an old aprtment building in the middle of downtown DC. The exterminator came today and sprayed all over. So, I won't be seeing a roach for a while. But I have no doubt that they'll be back. As long as there is food around and unseen pipes and crevices for them to lurk.

-rockstar

[This message was edited by rockstar on Sep. 25, 2001 at 10:25 PM.]

Magnolia

Sep. 25, 2001, 07:21 PM

rockstar-
You are from DC, and anyone else involved in the DC politics....
There are so many people, nations, factions etc. we could upset, who is keeping track of who we might offend by our actions? Is it the CIA that keeps track of all of these groups like the resistance in North Afghanistan? Do we rely on info from other nations? How does it work that we know who we can and cannot trust?

Ride it Like You Stole It...

DMK

Sep. 25, 2001, 07:35 PM

magnolia, I belive that basically the State Department is responsible for coordinating all the information and intelligence gathered, disseminated, found out and just plain guestimated by Military Intelligence, the CIA, the FBI and the NSA. And the buck stops with Colin Powell, who is a good man for the job.

And there are lots of people employed by our government who do nothing more than provide analysis and intelligence about various factions, countries and political groups around the world (one wonders if Ilona approves of these government employees?) All in all, our government has a good grasp of what has been going on. It's the "what will happen" that is challenging. Sort of like riding the tiger's tail, it's a wild ride, but god help you if you lose your grip.

AS for other country's intelligence, we will (and are) using it as we speak. Certain countries are evaluated for a) accuracy and b) ability to not leak info that we provide in order to "build the picture". For example, it is suspected that the reason bin Laden escaped from the 1998 bombings was that he was tipped off by his sources inside of Pakistan's intelligence office. Now I doubt we will ever know the truth of that statement, but there have been reports in the last few days about how we will "vet" any info we share with Pakistan...

Magnolia

Sep. 25, 2001, 07:40 PM

DMK-
Thanks, that was something I was completely ignorant of. I think it would be fascinating to gather that kind of data and research. I do think one of the few good things to come of this tragedy is a new respect for the complex world we live in.
As somebody studying community planning, it is nearly impossible to keep track of the un-spoken politics of the city - I can't imagine keeping track of the world's!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

baymare

Sep. 25, 2001, 08:29 PM

Ironic, is it not, that the Bush administration is using basically all the groundwork laid by Clinton? The only real difference being the greater International leeway and $$ support Bush has due to the tragedy itself...

Snowbird

Sep. 25, 2001, 08:49 PM

BUT! it seems memory and facts are very selective. We have supplied the most dollars to Afghanistan to help their people of anyone. We helped them beat the Russian bear by teaching them how to defend themselves.

But, what all these ostriches refuse to believe and what they refuse to comprehend is that this particular deviant group of Islamic activists really hate us not for anything but for our religions. And, it is not us as Americans but us as non-Islamics who not only refuse their beliefs but contradict them all. They believe it is fair to kill a man because his beard is too short. Any man with a clean shaven face is a satan.

This group has nothing to do with anything else. The other Islamic people condemn them as well. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia and it has been defiled by our presence because we have women who are able to be seen, we have women who are educated and that is against their faith in Allah.

Please stop looking for deep introspective solutions to their character. They are not true Islamics they are a male chavinist society that thinks of women as chattel.

The widows of THEIR heroes are forced to starve to death because the women may not be employed, the children of THEIR heroes die of starvation because their mothers are not even allowed to beg for food, it is illegal even for women to beg for food. Surely, some of Bin Laden's money could feed these widows whose husbands made him a hero, surely he could spend some of his money to feed the children of the men who died so he could live.

You can philosphize and you can criticize us but we have spent more money feeding the widows than Bin Laden or anyone else. The Afghans are running because they want to live and all the borders are closed to them they cannot escape so yes! they are making their camps at the borders. Do you think they run because they trust the Taliban?

Yes! we helped them to fight Russia, but we did not intend to occupy their country, would you have wanted us to stay and form the government? I think not! Would you have wanted us to put troops into Afghanistan so it was not a haven for Bin Laden? I think not.

If you want anyone to take your constant depreciation of this country and it's efforts for reality then tell me what was it we should have done? How many countries can we support on the taxes that you WANT to pay? We went into Kosovo to try and end a 1000 years of rivalry, and you complain. We leave Afghanistan to do it's own thing and you complain.

You want to support the poor and homeless of the world with our national budget but then you complain because it is spent overseas. You don't want to turn down your lights or not use your cars and yet you complain about pollution. You want open spaces preserved by the government but then you complain because it costs too much. You want to save the whales but you don't want to support the whalers.

You want to save some wood rat and then complain because the California burns and you can't have shavings for your horses because they are scarce, and no lumber is being cut for new housing.

You want open green spaces for horses but don't want to pay for the privilege by giving up entitlements and subsidy from the government.

You sit here complaining about barn managers who charge too much and give too little back and show managers who charge too much and at the same time you can't afford to show so you want to pay less and get more cash awards.

I believe this country is not perfect but it trys to balance it's good deeds out of this country with the good intentions from this country. No one is plotting to be mean spirited, sure maybe we have made some bad decisions and maybe we have some bad politicians but I think we have learned from our mistakes.

I am offended by this constant defeatist and protagonist attitude. You can attack me if you like and if it acts as a therapy for your malcontent it will be worth the abuse.

If you want to be malevolent then please direct it towards the right people.

Kryswyn

Sep. 25, 2001, 09:23 PM

Apparently she is unable to see that when a disaster of such unbelieveable, mind-boggling magnitude occurs; when instantly you realize that the world has changed, but you just don't know *how* you will be affected yet, it is often impossible to grasp the entire event. As a coping mechanism, the mind turns to something it *can* grasp, usually something trivial, like an accent, or choice of tie, or figure of speech to carp on, because thinking of the enormous tradegy that has occurred cannot be endured. This is not true just in the aftermath of 9/11 but often after the death of a loved one (I can still recall my mother complaining about a spot on the suit she wanted my father cremated in. Hello? He'd been sick for MONTHs and hadn't worn the suit for a year prior, yet Mom b*tched for a week after the fact like Dad should've been more careful w/ the mustard... Totally avoiding the fact that her husband of 46 years was being cremated w/o clothes anyway!)

If IloneE would actually read the posts she would see that most of the nitpicking about Dubya happened very early and has been replaced with excellent discussion now that 2 weeks have passed and we can begin to get our minds around this subject.

Of course, I have noticed she has nothing of substance to add to this discussion and is still trying to defend her rabid condemnation of whole groups with conflicting rhetoric....

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Snowbird

Sep. 25, 2001, 09:42 PM

We all react differently to a crisis. While some may feel better nit picking others of us think it is the time to be together and show these b******* that we will not give them the satisfaction to accomplish their purposes. Both are perhaps justified. No reason to call names.

It is a fact that 6000 of our childrens have been murdered in their home. It is a fact that many more have suffered and will suffer permanent damage from injuries and trauma. No one has the right to do that to us no matter how abused or paranoid their personal psyche. The damage they have done to their own people is worse. They have painted a face on Islam that it does not deserve.

This is our home and an intruder has damaged our sense of security in our home. Time to take off the gloves and forget the rules. No one has had the audacity to do such a thing to Americans since the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

We can welcome the Japanese now, and we have been cooperative with them since they conceded they were wrong. Yes! we panicked and we feared the japanese during the war and we did wrong things. But, we learn from our mistakes and we will all protect those who are in the Islamic religion. Islam is not monolithic it has a spectrum just as every religion, just as Christianity has sects.

America has a very forgiving heart and love for everyone, but it is most important for us to protect our children in their home. We helped rebuild Europe because this country doesn't hold a grudge and doesn't hate anyone.

And, I believe we should be together when we remember those good things we have done.
God Bless America and help us to be wise. We here can celebrate all religions and all beliefs and we don't have a need to humiliate anyone.

I live our here in farm country aand there are many here from every possible persuasion. I have a Chinese Doctor whom I admire and love. I have been treated by a Korean eye Doctor, we have many tradesmen from India. One of the men who is probably the reason I stayed in this industry and I was not not alone, everyone's most respected was black in this industry.

What I loved in this sport and the horse people I have known was not just tolerance but respect for anyone who could get the job done.

So I expect from all of you that respect but never, ever respect for a sociopath who kills innocent children in their home unsuspecting and without warning. That to me is a coward and a thief, whatever the reason there is no excuse for such evil.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 26, 2001 at 12:58 AM.]

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 26, 2001 at 01:03 AM.]

Magnolia

Sep. 26, 2001, 05:31 AM

I agree we are a nation of complainers. I love to complain about taxes and then ask why we don't feed the starving masses. I suppose this makes me different from a liberal that doesn't mind the taxation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just hate that, for example, we gave the Taliban millions of dollars to fight it's drug war, meanwhile, while said drug war is fought, people who could have been fed with the money starve. A great example happened here in Charlotte - while we were considering spending some 750 million on a basketball arena (100% taxpayer funded) someone asked that the city might pay it's workers a living wage. Well, the mayor thought that was so darn socialist... but the basketball arena is not? So, I am tired of hypocrisy in our own government.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> No one is plotting to be mean spirited, sure maybe we have made some bad decisions and maybe we have some bad politicians but I think we have learned from our mistakes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only statement I really disagree with you on this statement. We DO NOT learn from our mistakes. We make the same ones over and over and over again. What's the saying, History repeats itself?

anyhow, while I'm quote happy
May you live in interesting times! Confucious?

Ride it Like You Stole It...

M. O'Connor

Sep. 26, 2001, 05:33 AM

<<this particular deviant group of Islamic activists really hate us not for anything but for our religions. And, it is not us as Americans but us as non-Islamics who not only refuse their beliefs but contradict them all. They believe it is fair to kill a man because his beard is too short. Any man with a clean shaven face is a satan.

This group has nothing to do with anything else. The other Islamic people condemn them as well.>>

Snowbird, I beg to differ--at the head of the beast are those who have a political agenda but have been unable to achieve it politically and are thus willing to resort to savage means; they are simply using rampant fundamentalism and fundamentalists as weapons against the West, to whom they are politically opposed for many reasons, only some of which are religious. If you read the profiles of the hijackers, not many of these seemed to be devoted to Islam--on the contrary, they were well educated contemporary individuals who had signed on to a political cause. Not a long beard among them. The fact of the terrorists finding shelter behind the cloak of extreme religion is one of convenience, not doctrine--never has been. It is the overlapping agendas of each group that have enabled the symbiosis to function, in contrast to the disunity of their common enemies.

The big question now is whether the terrorist's/fundamentalist's enemies ( that would be us in the "West" and members of our diverse and still-forming coalition--many of whom have not much in common with each other) can develop and maintain their own set of overlapping agendas long enough to shut the terrorists/fundamentalists down for good. Which will basically mean solving the world's problems along with militarily defeating the terrorists...

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Sep. 26, 2001 at 11:41 AM.]

DMK

Sep. 26, 2001, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Surely, some of Bin Laden's money could feed these widows whose husbands made him a hero, surely he could spend some of his money to feed the children of the men who died so he could live.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

M. O'Connor - thank you for your comments on the reasons why these terrorists are so violently anti-american. Their religion is the least of all reasons they do so, and to imply otherwise is fairly insulting to the world's 2nd largest religion.

Snowbird, as for your request that bin Laden use his money to feed the families of his supporters, I would strongly suggest you read up on the subject. He does not have the support he has merely because he preaches anti-american propoganda. He DOES provide food, aid and money to these people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I am offended by this constant defeatist and protagonist attitude. You can attack me if you like and if it acts as a therapy for your malcontent it will be worth the abuse.

If you want to be malevolent then please direct it towards the right people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I confess, I am not offended, and have not detected malevolence in my posts, but instead, I confess to being downright bemused... Best as I can tell, you must have been reading a different thread. What I have seen is an intelligent, thoughtful analysis of the situation at hand.

Honestly, I have asked this of you several times - WHY do you think this kind of discussion is wrong?

I ask this knowing that the people that you want us to blindly support who are directing this campaign are having the EXACT same discussions, albeit on a much higher level. Do you think that they go forward without trying to fully understand the repercussions of their actions? Do you think that they blindly rush forward where fools fear to tread?

And if that is not what you think, WHY is it so wrong for us to try and understand these same things?

hobson

Sep. 26, 2001, 07:31 AM

I was thinking about the religion thing. Quite obviously it is an oversimplification to blame religious differences for the catastrophe. But I've noticed for quite some time now that even in mainstream Islam there is a fairly common thread of anti-christian and anti-jewish feeling of conspiracy against Islam. I would surmise that it's something that traces its origin to colonialism-imperialism-modernization-globalization. Don't know where I'm going with this thought other than to remark that it surely must be easy for fundamentalist fringe groups to exploit this way of thinking and garner recruits. Wish I could be more coherent about it, but I'm not having a very lucid day.

hobson

Sep. 26, 2001, 07:55 AM

It turns out somebody was listening to our pizza-tipped missile strategy suggestions. This is from today's Financial Times:

Allies outline "Bread and bombs" campaign aims (http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3KUOP12SC&live=true&tagid=IXLI0L9Z1BC)

Magnolia

Sep. 26, 2001, 07:57 AM

I was thinking that terrorism is kind of the last vestige for those who just can't be heard, and for who's ideas are so far out of mainstream, no one will listen to them. I think that back in the cold war days, if you didn't like what the USA was doing, you could cry to the USSR and have a big allie on your side. Now a days, there is no equivalent in "super power" to the US and if you are a small country and you don't like what the US policy is, you don't really have a voice, or anyone to even run to crying that could "intimidate" us. The only thing you can do is use terrorism against the big guys.
I don't know what the solution is - maybe we need another really big enemy, like China to keep a balance of global power? You might be able to kill off terrorism in the middle east, but sooner or later, another small country is going to be upset with some policy and use terror against us, as long as we are the lone "super power"
Well, that is clear as mud...

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Magnolia

Sep. 26, 2001, 08:00 AM

That is really promising! Let's hope they aren't up to EVIL by sending in the Olestra or frankenfoods those europeans won't buy!
But really, it is nice to hear some rationality being reported!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

hobson

Sep. 26, 2001, 08:50 AM

Bush Sr. Apologizes To Son For Funding Bin Laden In '80s

MIDLAND, TX� Former president George Bush issued an apology to his son Monday for advocating the CIA's mid-'80s funding of Osama bin Laden, who at the time was resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. "I'm sorry, son," Bush told President George W. Bush. "We thought it was a good idea at the time because he was part of a group fighting communism in Central Asia. We called them 'freedom fighters' back then. I know it sounds weird. You sort of had to be there." Bush is still deliberating over whether to tell his son about the whole supporting-Saddam Hussein-against-Iran thing.

Erin

Sep. 26, 2001, 08:54 AM

Just a reminder for those who aren't familiar with the Onion. It's not real... just a very funny website full of parody "news" stories. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.theonion.com

Snowbird

Sep. 26, 2001, 10:08 AM

In my experience you can usually you can find a hidden chain of mystery almost anywhere if you keep looking. Usually however the fact is not that people plotted some great conspiracy but rather they didn't think it out at all and it happened. This is confirmed by the posted statement from Daddy Bush.

I would have agreed with you about the religion concept being too simplistic. While I am certain that there is some other motivation for some of the leaders I am also certain from the interviews that I saw from real people in Afghanistan that religion is truely the motivation, and truly what can be expected.

I work a lot in the wee hours when the less popular stuff is aired on satelite and off beat channels and this was a shocking hour. The logic voiced was simple and direct regarding the issue of their kind of Islam.

I think we find it very hard to believe in such religious ferver because we are so much more homogenized. They on the other hand are convinced that their passage here on earth will be blessed in Paradise with Allah.

As to the suicide group, we wonder how they could live with us and still hate us when we know how kind and tolerant we really are, they on the other hand believe that they are joining Paradise and that reward will be greater than anything we can do for them, that may even be the way they pay their penance to Allah for having been corrupted here by beer and smoking or whatever else they imagine is a sin including shaving their beards.

We had suicide bombers in World War II from Japan. They were the same kind of people looking for eternal glory in their paradise and not seeing what they do as a crime. They just don't get it at all it is simply not part of their sociological structure.

Any that have been interviewed have never had some broad scope of phiosophical debate about economics, that is our bag and not theirs.

They believe that our blessings will damn us to eternal hell while they will rise and rule Paradise. In conversations I had with Muslims when we visited the middle east years ago they have an uncomplicated and simple view of the universe and the path that man takes. They really feel they are the defenders of the right of Ishmael to have his inheritance from Abraham finally.

Please do not assume deep complicated thinking purposes to the troops led by Bin Laden. They DO NOT WANT our world, they are not jealous of our world, they believe that the more difficult their life the better their chances of going to Paradise.

What offended me was the knee-jerk reaction that our government is wrong, that it always makes the wrong choices for the wrong reasons. While this may be so some times it is not the motivation for everything.

Flash44

Sep. 26, 2001, 10:29 AM

It's actually closer to the truth than you think - the onion, that is.

So which countries are on Bin Laden's side?

F44 - Once a nerd, always a nerd.

Policy of Truth

Sep. 26, 2001, 07:47 PM

Kinda off topic, but I was in my local tack shop today and I thought of a question for this BB:

Have the recent attacks made a difference to any of you in your spending patterns with horse stuff? I'm asking because I had ordered one of the Wintec/Bates gullet sets and went to pick it up. Whereas I would typically purchase a couple of other things (whether I needed them desperately or not), I only bought the gullet set.

I don't generally change my spending habits due to a world crisis, but something about this one mace me think twice.

Am I alone on this?

Kryswyn

Sep. 26, 2001, 08:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JulieMontgomery:

So _you_ are the arbiter of substance?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If you can clean a stall, you tell sh*t from substance. I've been a professional mucker AND worked in a law firm for 10 years. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Heidi

Sep. 26, 2001, 08:44 PM

I watched an excerpt this evening of Bush's speech from the offices of the CIA - an occasion during which he re-stated his support of its head, George Tenet, and reinforced his military resolve.

His speech also gave birth to a new word, "misunderestimated".

English is not my mother tongue, I did not attend Yale, nor am I the President of the U.S. I was, however, raised by my parents to excel, to speak better, to write better, to study harder and achieve to the best of my abilities. Given that life context, I can't help but question the essential intelligence of a man who, in the course of his 40+ years of life on American soil, hasn't yet figured out that 'misunderestimated' is not a word in any English dictionary.

Whether it's a true indication of his ability to deal effectively with the threat of terrorism - I don't know. I do know, however, that, at the very least, the President of the United States should speak better than my 9 and 11-year-old.

Kellybird

Sep. 26, 2001, 09:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
We all react differently to a crisis. While some may feel better nit picking others of us think it is the time to be together and show these b******* that we will not give them the satisfaction to accomplish their purposes. Both are perhaps justified. No reason to call names.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So "b*******" is no longer a name?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Sorry I am getting very tired of the hipocrisy--not only on your part, Snowbird. How is it NOT ok to call political factions in our nation names, but it's perfectly fine to blast away at other nationalities and groups. Pleas keep it at least civil.

And IlonaE...I would agree, you seem to positively spit with anger through your posts, which doesn't seem really necessary. Could we keep things at a non-war-level for now?

".....Imagine all the people....."

elizabeth

Sep. 26, 2001, 09:25 PM

Justice Kennedy is reputed to have been fond of going out to play golf in the middle of the day when he was supposed to be in his office "being a federal judge." His response to critics questioning why he wasn't in chambers working was "If you don't like it, convene Congress and have them try to boot me. I have life tenure."

Upon reflection, Bush could adopt a similar theory. He went to Yale, he's the son of a former president, he is the current president. If he wants to make up words, far be it from me to object!!

SLW

Sep. 27, 2001, 05:38 AM

Heidi- Since you brought it up, /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ,read the article below and tell us do you think we Yanks "misunderestimated" our former Pres? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW

Boston Globe: Clinton-Lewinsky Affair Complicated Attempts to Get bin Laden
Carl Limbacher
Sept. 21, 2001
President Clinton's affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky may have interfered with his administration's failed attempts to eliminate Mideast terrorist Osama bin Laden, the Boston Globe reported Friday.
The liberal sister paper of the New York Times also raised questions about whether the ex-president's reckless personal behavior ultimately contributed to the deaths of 6,700 Americans in last week's terrorist attacks on the U.S.

"He authorized the attack (on bin Laden) on the same August weekend in 1998 he confessed his affair with Lewinsky to his wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton," the Globe said.

The paper called the confession of adultery an "added strain" for the president, noting that, "Some wonder whether he wasn't distracted by the legal and political quagmire of the Monica S. Lewinsky case" at the time he launched 75 cruise missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan.

"He met with national security and military advisers to plan the attacks between sessions with lawyers to prepare for his (Lewinsky) grand jury testimony," the Globe said.

"I think it is entirely possible that was a distraction," said Massachusett's Senator John Kerry, referring to Clinton's attempts to juggle his Lewinsky cover-up with military efforts to take out the terrorist who would later prove so deadly to U.S. civilians.

Others disagreed. Former Clinton national security official Nancy Soderberg insisted to the Globe that her ex-boss was able to "compartmentalize" the Lewinsky sex scandal while mapping out a strategy to get bin Laden.

She did not cite the best known example of Clinton's ability to compartmentalize sex and national security: a 1995 Oval Office phone call where he discussed troop deployment to Bosnia with Rep. Sonny Callahan.

The conversation was carried out while Ms. Lewinsky performed a sex act on the president.

As Clinton desperately tried to cover-up his affair with the young intern, the legal fight to preserve his presidency took up more and more of his time, staffers admitted. Meanwhile other issues like the war on terrorism were relegated to the back burner.

"Clearly, not enough was done," said Jamie Gorelick, a former deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration. "We should have caught this. Why this happened, I don't know. Responsibilities were given out. Resources were given. Authorities existed. We should have prevented this."

Even Soderberg, who declined to blame the Lewinsky scandal for the failure to get bin Laden, confessed that Clinton's war on terrorism was never the priority it should have been.

"In hindsight, it wasn't enough, and anyone involved in policy would have to admit that," she told the Globe

DMK

Sep. 27, 2001, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Even Soderberg, who declined to blame the Lewinsky scandal for the failure to get bin Laden, confessed that Clinton's war on terrorism was never the priority it should have been. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thereby sharing the mantle with the previous 50 some odd Administrations...

Yup, we were too busy fighting the War on Drugs to pay a heck of a lot of attention to the war that countries like Great Britain, Armenia, Azarbaijan, Egypt, Isreal and countless African and Eastern Europe nations were fighting. The NIMBY principle at it's finest. But hindsight is gloriously 20-20, ain't it?

Midge

Sep. 27, 2001, 07:00 AM

I am in no way trying to defend our former Prez, but I vividly recall that the opinion in the papers, etc. in response to the missile attacks in Sudan and Afghanistan was that he did it to distract the nation from the Lewinsky mess. My how the worm has turned. Hindsight is generally crystal clear.

Magnolia

Sep. 27, 2001, 07:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If you can clean a stall, you tell sh*t from substance. I've been a professional mucker AND worked in a law firm for 10 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Kryswyn, where was more sh*t slung????

DMK-
The "War on Drugs" is the biggest waste of energy and tax dollars I have ever seen. It is so ineffectual. I hope they don't use it as a model for the "War on Terrorism"!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

jparkes

Sep. 27, 2001, 07:58 AM

...here on the BB!
Hissing, mudslinging, spitting and downright nastiness here!
And most of you are calling for a peaceful resolution? Ha!
War and hatred have been around since the beginning of time and to have a people belive that peace is the answer to life's problems, then you have another thing coming.
Look at our nation as a whole. Devorce rates through the roof, road rage, black -vs- white, poor -vs- rich, and so on...
Kinderagrden spats and minor road accidents, I can see peaceful endings to those, but all others...well????

Heidi

Sep. 27, 2001, 08:06 AM

SLW, don't know if you've read it but would recommend David Halberstam's article in the September Vanity Fair which chronicles the great tension between the Clinton administration and the military.

Clearly as detailed in the book, and evident in hindsight, Clinton's priority was not foreign policy but rather domestic. What actions he took in Somalia, Bosnia were done so reluctantly and inarguably, ineffectively.

I'd point out that, during that decade of economic prosperity, his reticence to affect a pro-active foreign policy program was a reflection of the American public's distaste for it. Seemingly, the American population supported the concept of war via air strikes - but couldn't/wouldn't stomach ground casualties.

I'd also ask, had the terrorist attacks not taken place on American soil on September 11, would Bush have been any different with respect to foreign policy?

Heck, had Bush Sr. not abandoned the Afghanis in '89 when the Russians finally ended the war, would the Taliban have been able to garner as much support as they clearly have?

Events such as the terrorist attacks do not happen in a vacuum but rather seems a culmination of many years of misguided U.S. foreign policy. And Clinton's not the only culpable former President.

SLW

Sep. 27, 2001, 08:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by heidi-ugh:
<<recommend David Halberstam's article in the September Vanity Fair which chronicles the great tension between the Clinton administration and the military.>> Thanks for the tip, I'll look for it in town. I recall Clinton making some unpopluar decisions regarding the military at the lower levels.

<<I'd also ask, had the terrorist attacks not taken place on American soil on September 11, would Bush have been any different with respect to foreign policy?>> I have no idea or expertise in this area, /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif , other than for starters, I do believe that this attack is an example of a massive and profound failure within our American intelligence agencies, domestic and foreign.

<<Events such as the terrorist attacks do not happen in a vacuum but rather seems a culmination of many years of misguided U.S. foreign policy. And Clinton's not the only culpable former President.>> Yes, I agree, see above comment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Weekly we are learning more and more about how long the terriorist were living amongest us.

I offered the news article in direct responce to your comment about President Bush, "Whether it's a true indication of his ability to deal effectively with the threat of terrorism" as evidence of how it is documented that the former President did handle some situations.

One quote I really like comes from Rep. J.C. Watts of OK., "Character is what you do when no one watching". In his free time, when no one is watching, maybe Dubya *dreams* up these words to just plain confound us!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Can't you see Bin Laden in his cave today "What DOES Bush mean misunderestimated!?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW- please don't undermistand me!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heidi

Sep. 27, 2001, 08:41 AM

SLW, I would never misunderestimate you and will attempt not to misunderstand you. We're in agreement, I think, which kinda misoverwhelms me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SLW

Sep. 27, 2001, 08:51 AM

Singing Kumbaya with you Heidi......heck, I may go pick some Daisy's and misbraid them in my horses manes.....tie dyed breeches......platform soles on my hunting boots.....

SLW- a misunderachiever /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.S. That WAS a funny word he screwed up, thanks for sharing it!

hobson

Sep. 27, 2001, 08:52 AM

It's a subliminable moment.

M. O'Connor

Sep. 27, 2001, 09:15 AM

DMK:

<<Yup, we were too busy fighting the War on Drugs to pay a heck of a lot of attention to the war that countries like Great Britain, Armenia, Azarbaijan, Egypt, Isreal and countless African and Eastern Europe nations were fighting. The NIMBY principle at it's finest. But hindsight is gloriously 20-20, ain't it?>>

Ironic to note that a significant portion of the income of terrorist groups is financed by trading in illegal drugs...perhaps if the war on drugs had been more successful......

Kryswyn

Sep. 27, 2001, 09:19 AM

...I think Dubya was just confuzzled for a moment when he missaid 'misunderestimated'. After all, it has seven syllabubs...

Magnolia: true story. When I was interviewing for my 1st Paralegal position, one of the partners reviewed my resume (BA in Horsemanship, lots of horsey jobs) and said in a bored tone: "Can you tell me what relevence your education and experience have to working in the legal field?"

Looking him straight in the eye I said, "Well, sir, in both fields you have to be able to tell the sh*t from the straw!" He burst out laughing and said that there was plenty of sh*t to shovel at the firm, and I got the job! So I'll answer your question by saying, there was more ca-ca at the office, but it was cleaner and smelled better! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

DMK

Sep. 27, 2001, 09:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
Ironic to note that a significant portion of the income of terrorist groups is financed by trading in illegal drugs...perhaps if the war on drugs had been more successful......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't go there LOL!!! We could probably dedicate five or six hundred pages to THAT topic!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And just imagine if we managed to blend the "to zero tolerance or not to zero tolerance your horse show philosophy" to it? EEEEKS!!! another 1000 pages to be sure!!!!

Flash44

Sep. 27, 2001, 05:24 PM

www.uglypeople.com (http://www.uglypeople.com) /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

F44 - Once a nerd, always a nerd.

dogchushu

Sep. 27, 2001, 05:27 PM

ROFLMAOPIMP Flash! Where do you find this stuff?

Canter

Sep. 27, 2001, 06:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:

Ironic to note that a significant portion of the income of terrorist groups is financed by trading in illegal drugs...perhaps if the war on drugs had been more successful......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could one of you please clarify something for me? I have read many articles about bin Laden but I have yet to come across any that connect his group with illegal drug funding.
Is this true or have I just not read enough?

And which terrorist groups are suspected of funding themselves through illegal drugs?

Who needs chaps?

DMK

Sep. 27, 2001, 06:28 PM

Lady Godiva - the number one (only?) cash crop in Afghanistan is opium, which makes its way out to China (and presumably on to other places) through that Afghani corridor that the British Empire "added" to Afghanistan so no part of the Russian Empire touched the Indian subcontinent (can you tell I did well in geography /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

While I doubt we could conclusively prove in a court of law that the Afghanis associated with bin Laden and bin Laden's group were/are instrumental in facilitating that route, it is accepted that they have some involvement. And unrealistic to expect that they weren't availing themselves of a rather lucrative business, and letting some poor itinerant poppy farmer keep all the proceeds /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for other terrorist groups, I believe a lot of the rebel factions in Columbia, Peru, and Mexico are funded through drug money. While they have no specific beef with the US (now why would you piss off your biggest customer?), the governments in their countries consider them to be terrorists.

SLW

Sep. 27, 2001, 07:12 PM

LG-This press release does not cover groups dealing with drugs but it gives an idea of what we deal with each year.

http://www.senate.gov/~grassley/releases/1997/pr11-14.htm

M. O'Connor

Sep. 29, 2001, 04:09 AM

NY Times: 9/29 (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/29/arts/29ARAB.html?todaysheadlines)

Be quick, unfortunately, I think it will only be available for a couple days before it becomes archived/available for a fee

M. O'Connor

Sep. 29, 2001, 07:06 PM

Bump....I feel like the teacher..."quiz on Monday, anyone?!"

Snowbird

Sep. 29, 2001, 07:29 PM

I read it, but I think it missed the mark. They're talking to intellectuals and sophisticated people.

I do agree that when people are down and out they want to blame somebody. I don't agree that it was our job to know who was democratically inspired.

I believe we tried to help those who seemed to be the majority and I can tell you I heard and interview from the old king and he made more sense than most of the youngsters that are running off at the mouth.

Look we supported Castro because he made the right noises and we were wrong, it's human to make errors out of honest good intentions. Hindsight is always 20/20.

sundanz

Sep. 30, 2001, 03:04 PM

I love a texas accent...and I'm from germany!Besides, EVERYONE has an accent...LOL...and New Yawk or the Baston ( or is it Boston) accent is the worst....you GO, George!! What an awesome President he is...let everyone eat their tongues now, all the detractors I mean.

hobson

Oct. 1, 2001, 07:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Hindsight is always 20/20.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently not in this case. Somebody ought to give hindsight some glasses and whisper the names "Hussein", "Pinochet" and "Taleban" to it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50017-2001Sep30.html

Here's a snippet from the Post article, reporting on the visit that 10 Congresspeople paid on the former Afghan king and Northern Alliance representatives:

------
The congressmen offered reconstruction money for Afghanistan in return for help from Afghans who oppose the Taliban. California Republican Dana Rohrabacher told gathered Afghan representatives: "If you help us to overthrow this Taliban tyranny and bring justice to bin Laden, we will do justice by you. Congress will help you rebuild your society."
--------

Is anyone home here? It seems that some people in high places have very short memories, and revert right back to working with thugs to get the job done. I don't know if my fellow BBers remember reading the news about Afghanistan in the early and mid 90s, but you might recall that when the Northern Alliance had control of Kabul, the utter chaos that prevailed created the opportunity for the Taleban to step in and impose some social order. The only thing the Northern Alliance has in their favor is that they oppose the Taleban. Let's not mistake them for a force for all that is good and democratic. Granted, you can't get any worse than the Taleban, but Atilla the Hun looks like a cuddly teddy bear compared to Mullah Omar and his fellow monsters.

Being Not-the-Taleban does not mean a regime is civilized. In my own personal, humble opinion, what Afghanistan really needs is a long-term U.N. occupation, but the other Islam states would not really tolerate that.

Fortunately, Bush and his gang seem to be making a little sense on this count:
-------
The Bush administration, however, has been cautious. Last week, President Bush told reporters that while he welcomes "cooperation of the citizens in Afghanistan who may be tired of having the Taliban in place . . . we're not into nation-building." A U.S. Embassy official visited Zahir Shah last week, but the content of his exchange with the monarch has been kept secret.
-------

It's not the ringing condemnation one would really like to hear against doing business with warlords, criminals and terrorists, but it's at least some indication that they're paying attention.

DMK

Oct. 1, 2001, 08:01 AM

of the last 50 years... And I ain't omitting anyone - dem, rep, tory, whig, communist, monarchist, you name it /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You put the dictator in
You take the dictator out
You put another faction in
And you shake it all about

You do the Hokey Pokey
And you turn your policy around
That's what it's all about!

You put the leftist in
You take the leftist out
You put another faction in
And you shake it all about

You do the Hokey Pokey
And you turn their country upside down
That's what it's all about!

You put a president in
You take the president out
You put in another faction
And you shake it all about

You do the Hokey Pokey
And you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about!

Bumpkin

Oct. 1, 2001, 08:12 AM

And I cannot possibly argue politics.

But....from my friend who was touring Washington D.C. she said they had toured the CIA,(or was it the FBI?), and she asked the tour guide what they were doing about the war on drugs.

He answered that they were not doing as much about the war on drugs, and all their efforts were towards terrorism!!??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Strange answer to be giving on September 10.
JMHO

Oct. 1, 2001, 08:30 AM

> BAD AMERICAN Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001
> Written by Ted Nugent, the rock singer and hunter/naturalists, upon
> hearing that California Senators B. Boxer and D. Feinstein denounced
> him for
> being a "gun owner" and a "Rock Star". This was
> his response, after telling the senators about his
> past contributions to children's charities and
> scholarship foundations, which have totaled more
> than $13.7 million in the last 5 years!!
>
> I'm a Bad American-this pretty much sums it up for
> me. I like big trucks, big boats, big houses, and naturally, pretty
> women.
>
> I believe the money I make belongs to me and my
> family, not some midlevel governmental functionary
> with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to
> crack addicts squirting out babies.
>
> I don't care about appearing compassionate.
>
> I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a
> killer. I believe ignoring your kids and giving
> them Prozac might.
>
> I think I'm doing better than the homeless.
>
> I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I
> have the right not to be tolerant of others because they are
> different, weird or make me mad. This is my life to live, and not
> necessarily up to others
> expectations. I know what SEX is and there are not
> varying degrees of it.
>
> I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. But if you want to
> that's fine; I just don't feel like everyone else
> should have to.
>
> I believe that if you are selling me a Dairy Queen
> shake, a pack of cigarettes, or hotel room you do
> it in English. As of matter of fact, if you are
> an American citizen you should speak English. My
> uncles and
> forefathers shouldn't have had to die in vain so you
> can leave the countries you were born in to come
> disrespect ours, and make us
> bend to your will. Get over it.
>
> I think the cops have every right to shoot your
> sorry butt if you're running from them after they
> tell you to stop. If you can't
> understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English,
> see the previous line. I don't use
> the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for
> unpopular opinions or actions.
>
> I know how to count votes and I feel much safer
> letting a machine with no political affiliation do
> a recount when needed. I know what the definition
> of lying is, and it isn't based on the word
> "is"-ever.
>
> I don't think just because you were not born in
> this country, you qualify for any special loan
> programs, gov't sponsored bank loans, etc.,
> so you can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or
> any thing else, while the indigenous peoples can't
> get past a high school education because they can't
> afford it.
>
> I didn't take the initiative in inventing the
> Internet.
> I thought the Taco Bell dog was funny.
>
> I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.
>
> I believe no one ever died because of something
> Ozzy Osbourne, Ice-T or Marilyn Manson sang, but
> that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap from
> someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light.
> But I respect
> your right to.
>
> I think that being a student doesn't give you any
> more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster or
> Jack In The Box.
>
> I don't want to eat or drink anything with the
> words light, lite or fat-free on the package.
>
> Our soldiers did not go to some foreign country
> and risk their lives in vain and defend our
> Constitution so that decades later you can tell me
> it's a living document ever changing and is open to interpretation.
> The guys who wrote it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they
> meant what they said - now leave the document alone, or there's
> going to be trouble.
>
> I don't hate the rich. I help the poor. I know
> wrestling is fake. I've never owned, or was a
> slave, and a large percentage of our forefathers
> weren't wealthy enough to own one either. Please
> stop blaming me because some prior white people were
> idiots - and remember, tons of white,
> Indian, Chinese, and other races have been enslaved
> too - it was wrong for every one of them.
>
> I believe a self-righteous liberal Democrat with a
> cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an
> attitude.
>
> I want to know exactly which church is it where
> the "Reverend" Jessie Jackson preaches; and, what
> exactly is his job function.
>
> I own a gun, you can own a gun, and any red
> blooded American should be allowed to own a gun, but
> if you use it in a crime, then you
> will serve the time.
>
> I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every
> penny he made and continue to make more. If it
> makes you mad, then invent the next operating system
> that's better and put your name on the building.
> Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help
> you.
>
> I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Even
> suggesting it makes me mad. You're telling me that
> someone who is a minority,gay,
> disabled, another nationality, or otherwise
> different from the mainstream of this country has
> more value as a human being that I do as a white
> male. If someone kills anyone, I'd say that it's a
> hate crime. We don't need more
> laws! Let's enforce the ones we already have.
>
> I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake
> anything sucks.
>
> I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise
> a child-it takes a parent with the guts to stand up
> to the kid and spank his butt and say "NO!" when
> it's necessary to do so.
>
> I'll admit that the only movie that ever made me
> cry was Ole Yeller.
>
> I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I
> had a kid.
>
> I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon
> or be made to keep silent because I have these
> beliefs and opinions. I thought this country
> allowed me that right.
>
> I will not conform or compromise just to keep from
> hurting somebody's feelings. I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised,
> no matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the
> world to believe otherwise.
>
> Yes, I guess by some people's definition, I may be
> a bad American.
> But that's tough.
>
> Ted Nugent

horse,horse,horse

N&B&T

Oct. 1, 2001, 12:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep silent because I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country
> allowed me that right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just you Ted!

People are entitled to have, and express, different opinions. That means that Ted doesn't have to keep silent. (BTW, how did anyone "make" him keep silent? Duct tape? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

That also means I am free to "frown upon" or "look down upon" his opinions, and say so.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 1, 2001, 12:56 PM

Thanks, NP Fisher. I was waiting for someone else to speak up re:Ted Nugent. My comment would have been much less eloquent. I was looking for an emoticon for "barf".

I'm not sure how his previous career as shock rocker qualifies him as a commentator on politics and social justice. It's people like Ted that make people like me want strict gun control!

Hey DMK, here's a belated thank you for all the very informative posts you've made about the situation in Afghanistan! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW

Oct. 1, 2001, 12:58 PM

Actually Ted Nugent did not write that letter though it has been attributed to him and yet another version was attributed to George Carlin which he in fact did not author. Either way it is an intriging letter!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW

Snowbird

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Fortunately, Bush and his gang seem to be making a little sense on this count:
-------
The Bush administration, however, has been cautious. Last week, President Bush told reporters that while he welcomes "cooperation of the citizens in Afghanistan who may be tired of having the Taliban in place . . . we're not into nation-building." A U.S. Embassy official visited Zahir Shah last week, but the content of his exchange with the monarch has been kept secret.
-------<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I realize Hobson that it is hard for you to comprehend that it is possible for us to have a President who isn't stupid and doesn't lie. It had to be a Republican!

Yes! let's see it was Kennedy and Johnson who designed the Viet Nam fiasco, it was Clinton who weasled his through his 8 years trying to decide exactly what "is" meant in every context, and wasn't it during his watch that they lost whole computers full of classified information. Wasn't it Clinton who bombed the aspirin factory?

Abraham Lincoln was a Republican too, from what I remember of history. We have as Republicans never been into Nation building, our bigesst crime was isolationism (it's not our business). So Hobson sit back in your chair and see how a real President can intelligently cope with a serious situation without war or making "deals".

Even, if it's been reformatted Socialism is still socialism. It hasn't worked any better than Marxism and if you don't believe that just look at the Post Office and see how well government does running services.

Yep! I do agree with Ted Nugent..so go ahead and shoot. OH! but now you're a pacifist so I guess you need to figure out what it was in my childhood that made me so self sufficient and individualistic. Well, I never starved and I was never abused and I had a good education that made me know I was the captain of my ship and responsible for my own life. I would like it if everyone had the same confidence and pleasure. It's the greatest feeling in the world.

SLW

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:03 PM

After reading this nonsense I will forever call CNN an "alleged news reporting service". Ditto Reuters. IDIOTS!

Friday, Sept. 28, 2001
Some Media Banning Use of the 'T' Word

First it was a ban on wearing U.S. flag pins. Now some journalists are being told they can't call a terrorist a terrorist because they might appear to be judging the thugs who slaughter innocent people.

CNN, for example, says it wants to "define people by their actions," a spokeswoman for the cable network told the Wall Street Journal.

She said that the kamikaze pilots flying the planes that hit the World Trade Center and Pentagon, for example, would be called "alleged hijackers," not "terrorists," because, she said, "CNN cannot convict anybody; nothing has been judged by a court of law."

Reuters has restated its policy of forbidding journalists to use the word "terrorist" in describing the attacks or their perpetrators, the Journal reports. Reuters reporters, however, can quote others using the term.

"We do not characterize the subjects of news stories but instead report their actions, identity and background," the company said in a written statement, adding that it has a similar proscription against the term 'freedom fighter.'

"The integrity of those accounts - and the safety of our journalists in hot spots around the world who provide them - depend on our adherence to these long-held principles," the statement said.

The Wall Street Journal, on the other hand, says it has told staffers they can use the word terrorist, but that "it should be used carefully, and specifically, to describe those people and nongovernmental organizations that plan and execute acts of violence against civilian or noncombatant targets, for example," not merely sympathizers with such people or groups.

The Associated Press refers to the Black Tuesday attacks as "terrorist attacks" because "we consider they meet the criterion," Managing Editor Michael Silverman said. Sometimes terrorists may call themselves freedom fighters, but "a lot of convicted murderers don't like the definition of themselves either," he added.

The Journal reported that the major broadcast and cable TV networks, including General Electric Co.'s NBC, Viacom Inc.'s CBS, Walt Disney Co.'s ABC and News Corp.'s Fox News, also said they have no new policies on such descriptive words or phrases.

The toughest response on the use of the word came from Bill Wheatley, vice president of NBC News, who told the Journal:

"A group of people commandeered airplanes and used them as guided missiles against thousands of people; if that doesn't fit the definition of terrorism, what does?" he asked. "We have no intention of changing."

Heather

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:05 PM

OK, I've tried desperately not to post on this thread--can't take it any more.

1. Ted Nugent is a "naturalist"????? Guess that makes Gengis Khan an "anthropologist".

2. As an American voter I have to say that George Bush is not "my" president. I neither voted for him, nor have I supported pretty much anything he's done since he got inot office. If he ran for election tomorrow, I doubt I'd vote for him. HOWEVER, as an American citizen, I feel he has done a good job leading our country through this time of unparalleled difficulty, and I think he has surrounded himself with many brilliant, grounded, educated men and he has committed himself to following their advice--not an insignificant achievement for somone wearing the mantel "Leader of the Free World". He has my unconditional support for the action he has taken thus far, and the action he is about to undertake.

But there will come a time, maybe next year, maybe next month, maybe three years from now, when he will have to return to domestic affairs, all the petty difficulties like abortion, hte over-coziness between church and state, the economy, and the rape of our natural lands, and however brilliantly he's handled this crisis will STILL NOT SWAY ME TO BELIEVE HE REPRESENTS ME OR THE POLICIES I BELIEIVE IN. He doesn't, and never will. This crisis has proven he's a better leader than I feared he would be, it still doesn't win him my vote.

It IS possible to congratulate and support him on a job well done, and still not feel he is a president worthy of my vote. But, the beauty is, that's my perogative.

InWhyCee

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:16 PM

She said that the kamikaze pilots flying the planes that hit the World Trade Center and Pentagon, for example, would be called "alleged hijackers," not "terrorists," because, she said, "CNN cannot convict anybody; nothing has been judged by a court of law."
__________________________

What, are they waiting for PROOF? Hmmmm, maybe it was an accident after all; that second plane could have been swooping down to help the first, right?

Poor CNN... word is that many of their foreign correspondents have been working without contracts for months (no doubt so they could pay for the increasingly embarassing Paula Zahn)... Fox News just snapped up their man in Afghanistan, who was no doubt overjoyed that someone was willing to pay him for reporting actual news!

HeyYouNags

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I guess you need to figure out what it was in my childhood that made me so self sufficient and individualistic. Well, I never starved and I was never abused and I had a good education that made me know I was the captain of my ship and responsible for my own life. I would like it if everyone had the same confidence and pleasure. It's the greatest feeling in the world.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, you continue to return to this sort of self-laudatory nonsense. Let me draw it to your attention, once again, that there are quite a few posters on this BB who also fit your description, but who nonetheless thoroughly disagree with your political views.

I'm happy you feel so good about yourself. Now, can we continue with more substantive discussion?

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:24 PM

>>I'm not sure how his previous career as shock rocker qualifies him as a commentator on politics and social justice.<<

My goodness - I didn't realize that one's occupation disqualified anyone from reading, thinking, or forming and stating an opinion.

dogchushu

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:26 PM

Calm down. CNN has a statement out on their Website that they have used the word "terrorist" many times in the past and continue to do so.

DMK

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

I realize Hobson that it is hard for you to comprehend that it is possible for us to have a President who isn't stupid and doesn't lie. It had to be a Republican!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh fer chrissakes Snowbird!!! Your contempt for the other 50% of this nation is now fully understood. Oh wait... I forgot about how little esteem you hold the under 50 crowd in too...

Best as I can tell, the only people you find worthy of sharing your oxygen are those born prior to 1941, who have not ever voted for anyone other than a republican, including Richard Nixon. Mighty small company you keep, and getting smaller by the day, I should think.

OK, now back to you regularly scheduled self-laudatory mumbo-jumbo, as HYN so insightfully posted...

Oh and just a postscript... the Bush Administration you are quoting is doing exacty that which you were ranting at all of us for talking about in this, which must be considered by ANY measure, a most innocuous place... Yep... they are exercising caution (check your words somewhere around page 1-13 of this thread - you were not in agreement with people who had that same thought).

So best as I can tell, you are for the President's Policy, no matter what it is, and can't seem to have some independent thoughts of your own?

Pixie Dust

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:42 PM

I was just listening to NPR and there were clips from Mr. Bush's speech and I was not even really paying attention, I am busy goofing off at work here, but I was wondering...when is he going to learn how to pronounce terrorist? Then just two minutes later I read Erin's post. Heheee...boy did I laugh. Come on, it's not a mean thing to say. I make fun of my husband all the time and I think he's brilliant!
Betsy

hobson

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:47 PM

For crying out loud, Snowbird, how is it you seize upon socialism when the discussion is about something entirely different???? Did anybody else read into my post a critique of capitalism? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And for the record, I am not a democrat, nyah nyah.

hobson

Oct. 1, 2001, 01:49 PM

Thank you DMK for making some sense. I do remember a number of "oh, you caution-loving, anti-american cowardly peacenik pacifists will see who turns out to be RIGHT!"

Magnolia

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And for the record, I am not a democrat, nyah nyah. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think people have forgotten the whole Bush vs Gore topic... I do believe we all came to the consensus that all politicians lie except Ralph Nader....
Do you think if Ralph was president that we would send over shoddy American products to Afghanistan like those bad tires as a form of covert terrorism?
Boy, Mr. Bin Laden sure did open quite a can of worms. I kind of miss the old school bickering over school vouchers and tax cuts.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:10 PM

There are several attacks on Snowbird vilifying her for stating her beliefs.

Cheap shots.

'cuz most of the vilifiers have not stated their beliefs with anything approaching Snowbird's clarity - other than a wish we all share, that the world not blow itself up any time soon.

So, what do DMK, HYN, Hobson, et al. actually believe?

C'mon - who wants to state their beliefs first? Without resorting to rhetorical devices such as calling perceived opponents names, saying "not what you (we think) believe" etc. - just a brief precis of beliefs here, so we all know what we're arguing about.

Fair enough?

Heidi

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:21 PM

No one disputes that Snowbird is fully entitled to post and express her opinion however and whenever she wishes, pt. That she'd do so without the self-laudatory insults, dismissiveness, historical manipulation, age-ism, and conceit would be greatly preferred. Punctuation is also a handy friend to have when feeling epic.

I haven't read a singular statement by anyone cited that was anything less than an eloquent statement of their beliefs, measured by the seeming novelty of intellectual curiosity and reason. And unlike some, they've also expressed the ability, willingness and grace to actually 'listen' to the opinions of others.

Kudos to HYN, DMK, and Hobson!

DMK

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:28 PM

pt - do you think I haven't been crystal clear in stating my beliefs, understanding and conceptual grasp about our foreign policy? Tell me what was unclear, and I shall attempt to remedy. I'm not one to sit around and not speak my mind, that's for sure...

As for Snowbird, and her right to believe in her religion, political party and elected president, god bless her, it is her right... But to preach unity and standing behind the elected leadership, while taking a backhanded slap at those who voted for ANY democrat, based on the assumption that only republicans are fit to run the country... Guess I'm mostly grateful a republican won the election - hate to see where all this professed unity would be if a dem was in the white house!

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:38 PM

No, DMK, I don't think you've been clear. Maybe it's a failure of comprehension on my part, but so many posts (not just your) seem to fall into some fuzzy dream somewhere between a Peacable Kingdom and Kumbayah - with much derision of the notions of Constitutional government (other than freedom of speech,) individual rights and individual responsibilities. So I'm baffled as to just what sort of political and social system some of the (assumed) younger posters favor - and BTW, I was born after 1941 but before 1960, so who knows what generation that is!

I'm not posting my request to attack anyone, but in genuine curiosity.

Oct. 1, 2001, 02:41 PM

Heidi - other than an expressed wish for an "economic and social system that would allow mothers to stay at home" I don't even know what system you favor.

And I have followed this thread continuously.

Funny, always thought my reading comprehension skills were good - maybe the ideas expressed are so foreign that I'm just not registering them.

Please, humor me - instead of just telling me how clear it all is to all of you.

SLW

Oct. 1, 2001, 03:07 PM

Dogshuchu

I'm confused, in addition to the statement attributed to an unamed CNN spokewoman via the WSJ on the site I cut and pasted from, Fox news is reporting that as fact.

Do you think it was a hoax by the WSJ?? Upon your comment I did go read the statement on the CNN site, thank you.

For others here's what CNN has on their site:
<There have been false reports that CNN has not used the word "terrorist" to refer to those who attacked the World Trade Center and Pentagon. In fact, CNN has consistently and repeatedly referred to the attackers and hijackers as terrorists, and it will continue to do so.>

SLW

LucianCephus

Oct. 1, 2001, 03:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Punctuation is also a handy friend to have when feeling epic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, heidi, I really must steal this!

N&B&T

Oct. 1, 2001, 03:52 PM

Or should we assume that you agree with Ted Nugent and Snowbird in their entirety?

Heidi

Oct. 1, 2001, 04:21 PM

That so many would exploit the tragedy in New York and Washington as yet another opportunity to grandstand their political and moral superiority is rather disgusting - that pt, is what disturbs me most about this thread. When even the politicians have agreed to cease and desist on the political rhetoric, here we are 18 pages later engaged in a silly pissing contest.

Whatever my political beliefs or affiliation isn't the point, pt. I'm doubtful the terrorists were motivated by a hate for either the republicans or democrats; in fact, I'd wager they couldn't give a rat's ass who they killed.

This issue isn't about politics, it's about humanity and the attempt to bring to justice the guilty parties and ensuring that we are never met with such tragic carnage ever again.

I believe in compassion, equality, freedom of choice, education, intellectual curiosity, wit and humour, I believe in love and beauty. I believe that we've done well in this country and I'm more than willing to share or help those who haven't enjoyed the benefits afforded me and mine.

I believe that we've all, as human beings, politicians and mere mortals, made mistakes and suffered the burden of conceit, intolerance, and arrogance - and some of us learn and others hold steadfast to a world that doesn't exist, preaching to an audience long after the mike's been turned off.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 1, 2001, 04:41 PM

I think I've gotten some understanding of the viewpoints of DMK, Hobson, and others on these issues. Perhaps some of it was gleaned from earlier threads, though, and not just this one.

In the early days after the attacks, the administration began saying we were at war. While certainly everyone here condemns the attacks, I, and surely some other posters, were uncomfortable with the idea that we were suddenly declaring war - on what or whom? Most of us agreed with the need for some sort of retaliation or bringing to justice, but the notion of sending troops or even bombers to bring Afghanistan to its knees struck me as senseless. Other posters seemed gung-ho to enlist for combat duty. (Two weeks later, the Bush II administration is apparently working on its definition of what the meaning of "war" is /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

I believe some of the discussion on this thread stemmed from what various posters thought would be a valid response (hmm, maybe I'm remembering another thread, though...) Of course, we digressed into other contentious topics along the way, as well /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

There, does that confusicate you completely about where I stand on issues? Or would you prefer the abbreviated format: left, liberal, die-hard democrat, tree-hugging, etc, etc?

And re: Ted Nugent's previous career - he is just as qualified to render his opinions as any poster on this BB. So how come he gets paid for his??
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Heidi

Oct. 1, 2001, 04:52 PM

As a stay at home mother, I believe the ability to stay at home to raise one's child(ren) is a financial luxury, not a moral defect.

And as for Ted Nugent, well golly, I much prefered it when he was but a mere Jack Daniel's-chugging, skirt-chasing, spandex-wearing, 'b' grade rock singer.

DMK

Oct. 1, 2001, 06:10 PM

pt - I could try to tell you who I am and what my leanings are, but I thought I would use what I have said on this thread, by way of explanation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I confess, I have to wait for the written transcript when he speaks - something about that man's voice that makes my spine crawl away!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, first we have established that the President's voice irritates me. This would be his voice, not his politics. I probably have opinions on those, but I don't think I've voiced them on this thread. What I have said (over and over) is that there is not one position on this issue that I am in disagreement with this Administration on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I did watch 2 hours of political commentary afterwords and read the speech, and it was indeed a good speech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? This is DMK agreeing with the speech... made by the Pres...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>That was my concern to (had that vision of the hydra in my head), but a coworker saw a very recent interview with Colin Powell, who has been stressing equal parts military, social, political and economic approaches to the problem, so I feel a lot better about that aspect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was where I had reservations about a strictly military approach, but was very impressed with this guy by the name of Colin Powell who apparently has a grasp of things and is fairly highly placed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>just think of us as true believers in the constitution. You know... the one that protects free speech?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the part where I express a deep love and appreciation for the constitution. I don't think this is derision for free speech, but maybe I am just not sublimbinal enough?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If people didn't stop and pause before following their leaders, I doubt that tea would have ever ended up in the harbor. Nobody said a) they were always right and b) you have to agree. And as many have pointed out, disagreeing with your government is NOT the same thing as not supporting it. Although that distinction is NOT made in countries like Afghanistan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More of that darned respect for free speech again! Now here's the subtle point. I have not actually disagreed with our government, but I respect the right of others to do so. It ain't easy being part of a democracy. You have to work at it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If you like to believe in the infallibility of your government, may I suggest a good old fashion monarchy or perhaps a dictatorship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actual this is a little bit of a political leaning of mine. I think our country was founded on the assumption that it is our duty to be a part of our governement, and to be accountable for its actions, and to affect those actions whenever we think they are unjust. I think there are words to that effect in the Declaration of Independence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We think it's just dandy that we live in a country where you are free to speak your mind. Free to change it too. Of course true believers never do change their minds, and generally scare the hell out of all the people in the middle. Of course we understand Left Leaning True Believers scare the hell out of us too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is another one of those political leaning type posts. Yup, I think I am part of the Middle, although I think other BB?ers might disagree. But maybe I'm in the middle because I like to sit on the fence?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I personally would like to think that one could be religious and a have a deep respect for one's god, without believing that said god might sanction a nation's or a machine's actions... ...Maybe they support this action fully, and to the bottom of their patriotic heart. Maybe they are deeply hurt, outraged, grief struck and angered at this horrific action against innocent people and our nation. And maybe, as we, the United States and our allies in this effort go forth and do what must be done, they think that just maybe, their god is deeply disappointed that it has come to this point. Maybe they think their god mourns the loss of all life killed by another human being, not just those that died on September 11. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is DMK on religion, or at least as it relates to religion and this issue. Not exactly what you asked for, but I thought it rounded out the picture nicely.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Afghan Recent History in 60 words or less...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>grey areas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, you are just going to have to go read these, because they are too darn long to repost, but I assure you it is a pretty straightforward recitation of the facts, that even ole' Henry would be hard pressed to disagree with (especially the part about preaching communism at home - Henry lived for that moment.) Who's Henry you ask? We will get to that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It's not that I don't think our government is keenly aware of these issues. In fact Colin Powell is probably one of the best people to be Secretary of State at this time. It's just that we are on a very shaky and tenuous path at this moment in our history. We have no choice but to be on this path - the events of September 11 have clearly shown us that, but that makes it no less dangerous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More praise for that clever Powell guy. Just who IS this dude and why does DMK respect his judgement?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Foreign policy that is made with blinkers on can and will cost lives. Such foreign policy is referred to as "folly" (try Barbara Tuchman sometime - she has this "folly" thing down pat).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK on foreign policy and Tuchman. Tuchman was pretty well repsected in her day, but I will concede she probably runs a tad to the left in her writings. Nevertheless she managed to win two pulitzer prizes for her historical texts, so she is at least well-researched. Not sure what that says about me, other than I read well researched books.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>How can facing reality be called fear? How could one think that by understanding and accepting the possible ramifications of our actions we are looking for excuses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has got to be that kumbaya moment you were referencing. Up until your post, I thought I was the least f'ing kumbaya-er out there. I stand corrected.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>As for a Nation, Nations are different. According to Hans Morganthau, one of the "fathers of international policy" and someone I place a deep amount of respect in (this will shock all those who think I am a total tree hugging liberal, since ole Hans is somewhere to the right of Henry Kissinger ).
Morganthau establishes that Nations are not moral, in the accepted sense. They may act morally, but they do that for pragmatic reasons (i.e., they will follow a moral course if it is also the pragmatic course). Nations have ONE guiding principle, and that is that they act in their best interests, and to the extent their power allows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you were looking for a foreign policy philosophy, eh? It was pretty much summed up right here, but I can see where someone who was not quite the student of foreign policy might have missed it. Yup, I'm a HUGE fan of Morganthau (Politics Among Nations), who in addition to being a reasonably intelligent man, also laid out a policy doctrine to follow in the absence of a cold war (some 40 years ahead of its time), and was also the mentor of most of the republican secretaries of state back in yesteryear, most notably Kissinger (I told you we would get to Henry /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). What HM was NOT, was just about anything to do with the politics of the left at that time (LBJ, Kennedy, etc.). Although since Brezinski was also one of his students, we are left to wonder if he regretted the job he did with that particular student or had a weakness for the Carter Administration politics.

Last but not least, I did a quick check on the books by my nightstand, because I think that says a lot about a person. Here you go:

A Fire in the Lake - Fitzgerald (the definitive text on Vietnam)
The March of Folly - Tuchman (anyone who can draw parallels between the British occupation of the colonies and the American occupation of Vietnam is just plain gifted)
A Betrayal of Trust - Garrett (I?d say she sits a little to the left /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
Guns, Germs & Steel - Diamond (What a great book on why certain populations hold power and others don?t, and doesn't have a damn thing to do with politics)
The Elegant Universe - Greene (who cares about his politics, the man can explain quantum physics)
A March to Madness - Feinstein (college basketball and the ACC ? is there anything finer?)
Kick Ass ? Hiaasen (ooooh, do they get any further to the left?)
Age and Guile Beat Youth, Innocence and a Bad Haircut - O'Rourke (ooooh, do they get any further to the right?)
Blue Ridge - Pearson (if you love southern literature, you love pearson)

Hopefully this helped clarify my views. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dogchushu

Oct. 1, 2001, 06:41 PM

SLW, I don't watch CNN enough to know what they're saying these days. All I know is what I read on their Web site which I wouldn't imagine they'd make up. But I don't think a reputable paper like the WSJ would knowingly perpetrate a hoax. (I LOVE the WSJ--just haven't gotten mine this week since our newspaper delivery at work is screwed up right now.)

Maybe someone who wasn't in a position to dictate network policy spoke out of turn. Or maybe it was something they were considering that they didn't implement. Or the CNN spokesperson was referring to a specific instance and it was assumed to apply to all broadcasts. Or CNN thought they'd implement the policy, got negative reaction, and changed their minds.

Duffy

Oct. 1, 2001, 07:00 PM

I think you should feel honored that some people actually want to know what you think! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, DMK - It was a pleasure reading your well punctuated epic. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OK - onward to important things in life. My daughter just came back downstairs, after having "gone to bed" at 8:45 this evening. She misses "Remmie". /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I have sent her back to bed with a small photo album I have recently put together with lots of pictures of our four-footed friends who live and have lived under our roof. The others are in their own album. Hopefully, this will help comfort her.

Snowbird

Oct. 1, 2001, 07:23 PM

I understand that when you are young and inexperienced in the big world it's easy to philosophize abstractions and believe the answers you have found are the only right ones.

However, I promise you that as you grow up you will find that the joy of this country comes from debate and not name calling. It is so easy for children when found speechless to resort to the usual recriminations and detail analysis to prove some abstract and illogical value system. I'm not so bad, because there are some who are worse! Didn't your Momma teach you that good old American saying! "Sticks and stones my break by bones but names will never hurt me!"

I don't know about what you learn in school but in my day we had a proposed hypothesis and then extended it so we could visualize the ultimate conclusions of the hypothesis.

You are quite right, I do feel that you have never endured life without all the comforts and from your cozy little desks it is easy to create an imaginary world full of imaginary playmates who are what you wish them to be.

Your morality makes you feel so good and so superior, but what really is your morality? Does it give you justification for bad manners and a lack of civility? So throw away my ideas if you will and rather than discuss the conceptual differences, call me names and be demeaning and insulting does that make you right? It only exposes you're own real indifference to the kindness and generosity you choose to discuss as long as it's in someone else's responsibility. I am if nothing else tenacious and you do not humiliate me, you embarrass yourselves.

So I do not believe in beating up our government..what a crime I have perpetrated! So I believe that a cultist or a sociopath is not to be defended or protected but to made responsible for his/her actions.

Yes! in this real world I keep a rifle for an emergency so I can live until the police get there. But, shame on all of you, we have had the most uplifting period in the past 40 years of seeing those people who gave up their time and some their lives to help each other. And, why not for the money! not for the glory! not because they were trying to buy a good seat in heaven but just because they cared there were human beings who might have been alive and needed help.

I was in college when Karl Marx and his dreams of Utopia hit the college scene. I have seen the effects and so have you. Bin Laden and people of his thinking are not interested in a democracy, and there is no price we can pay to buy them. They believe and have a vision that let's them endure more horror in one day than you will ever see on the screen.

Reality check please! How much money do you think we need to spend to buy Bin Laden? How far should we go? They have oil and they could have all the money they want! So what else should we offer them? Do you seriously believe that if we gave them the state of Israel it would stop there?

MY GOD! children these are terrorists and bullies who will pick at your weak spots until they are raw. How much will be enough? The White House? the Statue of Liberty? the Captial building?

George Bush whatever he may speak like, is intelligent enough to be surrounded by great minds who respect him. He is not just George Bush anymore he is the "President of the United States of America". This is your country that has given you shelter and comfort and opportunity. If there was someplace better then we wouldn't have an immigrant problem at all.

Whoever told you that it was the government who was responsible to you? It isn't you are the government and under law the majority which is centrous makes the rules. Democrats and Republicans will disagree on principles regarding little personal issues but in this they are united,both, have had lesser Presidents and greater Presidents.

So you go ahead and make fun of my thinking if it makes you feel more important because that does not diminish me. You go ahead and make sarcastic comments about punctuation and speech habits if that makes you think you got something for the time you spent in college. It doesn't change a thing.

This government is of the people, by the people and for the people and you are the people so get used to it. Elect liars and cheats who make you feel good and you will get what an electorate deserves when they don't respect and honor the government. Elect Madison Avenue packaged people and you will prove that Andy Warhol was right. Will the can of Campbell's soup take the place of God? Brave New World must have been on your reading list still, remember "Georgie Porgie Ford and Fin, kiss the girls and let's begin?" When I read it I identified with the savage, with which group do you indentify? On the Island of the Alphas there always was war, so do you prefer the brain conditioned worker bees and babies raised in hatcheries?

Just maybe if you had a really open heart and mind (which you think you have) we wouldn't have bitter and self centered politicians who are willing to say or do anything just to get elected.
Just maybe you could be a little more tolerant and cerebral.

YES! this is your world and you are making it in your own image. I hope you like what you get!

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 01, 2001 at 10:43 PM.]

Flash44

Oct. 1, 2001, 07:33 PM

Don't even go there. Ever. Ever. Ever.

You need to walk a few miles in someone else's shoes before you can pass that kind of judgment.

I have the best of both worlds - I work from home and earn a good salary. I still did part time day care until my son was 3, then enrolled him in preschool part time. He had to be out of the house for at least 15-20 hours a week in order for me to get my work done.

I have friends who stay at home and friends who work. The friends who stay at home are volunteering and getting involved in all kinds of things to occupy their time. The ones that work have great careers and are very successful.

ALL OF THEM ARGUE WITH THEIR SPOUSES ABOUT MONEY, WHO'S MORE TIRED, WHO'S WORKING HARDER, ETC.

I plan to work now and retire early, rather than stay home now and work later. I just feel that the work force will "pass me by" if I take too much time off right now. Things change so fast and technology increases exponentially on a yearly basis that you either use it or lose it.

I'm putting money away left and right for education, retirement, etc. When my child is older and facing tough choices, I will be home, not at work. Hopefully.

Use the Force.

Snowbird

Oct. 1, 2001, 07:57 PM

Flash44 you are on the right track, that's what I did, I made my move into a business so I could be at home and raise my children. There has never been a day that my children or my grandchildren didn't know they had someone waiting for them at home.

I was a latch-key kid and I know how I felt. Yes! as women we can find ways to balance the picture. I made my choice and I don't need to retire. I have been happy with every day of my life. Why would I spend $200 a day to go to a hotel? I can sit on my own back porch and watch the horses play.

Why go to a fancy beach and sit in the sun with sunscreen so you can't get tan? It's certainly not confortable.

How can anyone expect a $300 a week Nannie to raise their children to be any better than an $300 a week Nannie? Why should you pay people to have all the joys of watching your children grow into people?

So I commend you because you can do it all, it's not easy but it's worth it.

Kellybird

Oct. 1, 2001, 08:17 PM

Speech is free on both sides....but occasionally one side is more vocal /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I still love DMK and heidi! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And Snowbird, if you'd rather not have people call names, why don't you please set a good example and not refer to any Dem. elected officials as "liars" and "cheats?" Us younguns need good role models. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hm, the recycle bin looks full.....

Heidi

Oct. 1, 2001, 08:43 PM

And I love you back, Kellybird! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's interesting, for so many, war is but an abstract concept. Unfortunately, for me, war has been prevalent in my family. Both of my parents lived through the Japanese occupation, my grandfather was the mayor of a town in North Korea when kidnapped by the communists, my grandmother lost three of her children during the war, one of whom was two and died in my mother's arms, while my grandmother roamed the streets searching for her husband.

My grandmother was the original Single Mother when she escaped to the south with her remaining three children, one of whom was carried across the border on my 13 year-old mother's back. My grandmother sold the rice that she received from the Americans so that she could clothe, feed and educate her children. That all of her children are educated and successful is a testament to my grandma's strength and courage.

My grandmother continues to this day, in her 90th year, to possess great compassion, wisdom, and humility. She is the greatest person I know - of unparalleled courage and heart. And truth be told, she also believes that the world she lives in now, the one created by her grandchildren, is preferable to the tumultuous and violent world that she left. Rather than damn us, she applauds us our efforts and freedoms.

Snowbird

Oct. 1, 2001, 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And Snowbird, if you'd rather not have people call names, why don't you please set a good example and not refer to any Dem. elected officials as "liars" and "cheats?" Us younguns need good role models. [wink]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you weren't listening child! I said there have been flaws on both sides and great on both sides of the issue. You took it that I meant only democrats.
My point is that our politicians will rise to the goal if we set the standards high. And they give us back what we expect. "If you have the name, may as well play the game".

Well it's all perspective, my mother is 96 and still alive and healthy thank you! Yes! she too grew up in Europe during the first War to end all Wars. She came here alone without any money, unable to speak or read english. And, to them of that age this is a better place for sure, and to me it is the best place in the world with a flawed government sometimes but with the greatest opportunities to fix it.

YEP! and when she moved to her retirement home we found in her apartment a case of lamp oil, a case of oil lamps, a case of Baby Ben wind up clocks, two cases of clean jars for water, lots of soap, toilet paper and salt. She remembers what the world was like when it stopped working. My Mom is twice as feisty in her old age as I am. She lived under socialism, her town was occupied by the Bolsheviks and she had 5 nationalities before she graduated grade school. She had their cupboards raided so that they had no food but potatoes, she lived with a government who took what they wanted to give to others that they liked.

Your grandmother and my mother were the rocks that are the foundation of this world. We owe them an obligation to protect this world. We all believe in helping people, we all believe in being a good neighbor, we all agreed and sacrificed for the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe. We are right now the largest supplier of food to the people of Afghanistan.

So let's work on what we agree to make it better and not spin our wheels finding fault, whining, complaining and criticizing. Bet you never heard your grandmother complain, not once, nor did my mother ever.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 05:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>This government is of the people, by the people and for the people and you are the people so get used to it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and many people get screwed by their government, mainly because their bank account doesn't have enough money in it. I see it all the time - feds, state, and local. I think if the government was really by us/for us, things would be different.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Elect liars and cheats who make you feel good and you will get what an electorate deserves when they don't respect and honor the government.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wanted to vote for whom I thought to be an honest man for president, but, alas, in our state it is nearly impossible for a non democrat/republican to be included on our ballot.

I have respect for everyone on this BB engaged in this debate, no matter what side you are on, or how irrational I find your arguments. At least you care and are aware of politics and that is very good. I'm glad you are all thinking and using your brains. There are a whole lot of people who are absolutely clueless about anything except last weeks game and the latest knick knack on sale a Circuit City. They are the real dangers to our government and freedoms.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 06:43 AM

Single mothers? Socialism? Moms and Grandmothers who are the bedrock of society? As this relates to foreign policy?

I confess, I am in awe Snowbird. I dub thee "Queen of Tangentalism".

But all the same, you don't mind if I opt out of the "your children" club? I'm pretty sure my parents would take exception, never mind my grandparents.

Kellybird - I love you too!

Louise

Oct. 2, 2001, 06:46 AM

but, what that has to do with the price of bananas is beyond me. And yes, the generations in my family are way stretched out because they either married late, or had huge families.

I am so confused. We are arguing so hotly here, and I don't see us as being all that far apart. We are all standing solidly behind our Republican president in this matter. Maybe not in other matters, but who said that we were required to?

We all believe that terrorism must be defeated, we all agree that as few as possible innocent lives should be lost in the process. We are just using different terminology.

We have differences, politically and socially. But, that's what makes this America. Who says we all have to think alike? Why is everyone getting so angry at those who may think a little differently, you should be defending their right to think that way.

Some of the statements that have been made here have made me furious, and, Snowbird, I'm going to pick on you for one - I really resent being called a child. But, just because I am very angry about that statement, I am not going to discount all Snowbird has to say. Just as I am not going to discount all that DMK has to say.

What I'm going to do is to pick and choose among all the ideas that have been presented here, add my own unique point of view, and hopefully come out of the process with a better understanding and determination of the correct course to take in this very important matter.

On Sept. 19, tle posted a topic entitled "Freedom is hard" I suggest that all of you go back and take a good look at that essay, and think about what it says.

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 06:50 AM

Hey JumpingHigh - I agree with the "village" reference. The village did a lousy job at raising this generation coming up - it takes a FAMILY to raise children. If you want a career - you are entitled to one - I made that choice BUT I feel a small child needs a parent at home with them for the first few years. O.K. so you lifestyle (which usually equates to STUFF) has to change a little - then so be it. Those years can never be recovered and I'll take the slings and arrows - DAY CARE MAKES HOMOGENIZED KIDS. It forces small children into a day that starts and ends with hours equivilant to a factory worker. Their activities are on a schedule - even when they eat and pee. IT ISN'T WORKING.

Regarding DMK's post - wow....what an ego - like we needed to know the books on your bedstand. Who has time to read in bed???? I have a breeding business and fall into bed, head hits the pillow and I'm out!! But you seem to be very solid in your leftist leanings - I guess someone has to be way out there. What's the old saying??? If you aren't a Democrat when you are young ...you don't have a heart, if you aren't a Republican as an adult...you don't have a brain?? tee hee.

Louise

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:10 AM

IlonaE - may I remind you that this generation that is upcoming includes lots of young people like Becca, ErinB, Jump the Moon, Kellybird and Musical Jumper, just to name a few.

I wouldn't be so quick to condemn a whole generation, especially one that contains such bright and compassionate people as these.

Midge

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
but, alas, in our state it is nearly impossible for a non democrat/republican to be included on our ballot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<whispers> Harry Browne was on the ballot in 1996 and 2000.

Midge

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK: Blue Ridge - Pearson (if you love southern literature, you love pearson)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pearson, as in T.R Pearson, as in 'A Short History of a Small Place'? A genius!!!

Midge

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NP Fisher:
Quote: "
I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep silent because I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country
> allowed me that right."

Not just you Ted!

People are entitled to have, and express, different opinions. That means that Ted doesn't have to keep silent. (BTW, how did anyone "make" him keep silent? Duct tape? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

That also means I am free to "frown upon" or "look down upon" his opinions, and say so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I think he mentions your right to do so. Personally, I found very little with which I disagree, except perhaps for the cops shooting a fleeing suspect and that the Taco Bell dog was funny.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:34 AM

Uh... whatever, IlonaE... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm sure you are correct... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now back to the COTH Arab Studies group as M.O'C would say... Interesting background on the formation and structure of Al Qa'edah from Janes.

Inside Al Qa'edah (http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/misc/janes010928_1_n.shtml)

Yes Midge, that is TR Pearson indeed... Never read a funnier, more heartwarming book than Short History. Still get the giggles when I think of "Pinky Throckmorton and the pigeons".

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:59 AM

That was my favorite part too, Jumphigh.

DMK, what an interesting article. It is difficult from the news we get here, to really comprehend the size and sophistication of this organization. Their nasty little tendrils have stretched around the world.

I would pose the question, how do you wage a war against a strategy? Terrorism is such a changeable thing, used by extremists of all stripes. You can fight specific terrorists but the strategy won't go away as long as we still have the economic and political conditions that foster the growth of extremist right-wing fundamentalists and far-left ideologues.

If I had to place bets on who wins the war against terrorism, I'd put my money on terrorism - it's not going anywhere. Declaring a war in this kind of situation is such a tricky thing - if we are not a war with terrorism, and not at war with any particular nation, then where do we point the cannons? So I'd contend that we (the rhetorical "we" not the BB "we") need to rethink the 20th-century concept of "war" and try to define some new, more applicable ways of meting out justice. I'll have to delve into my theories of justice texts and get back to you on this one...

vineyridge

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:35 AM

in the Hague and "war crimes" tribunals of various sorts were set up by the international community after WWI and WWII to provide legal fora (forums) for transnational/international incidents. The mechanisms are in place. The trial of the Lockerby bombers proves that. The problem is getting the cooperation of the sovereign states harboring those who are wanted for specific incidents.

What's interesting to me is that we are focusing so hard on the Afghanis, when more than half of the WTC/Pentagon terrorists are listed as Saudi nationals. Bin Laden himself is a Saudi. The Taliban may be harboring and training terrorists, but Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for the anti-American fanatics.

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
in the Hague and "war crimes" tribunals of various sorts were set up by the international community after WWI and WWII to provide legal fora (forums) for transnational/international incidents. The mechanisms are in place. The trial of the Lockerby bombers proves that. The problem is getting the cooperation of the sovereign states harboring those who are wanted for specific incidents.

What's interesting to me is that we are focusing so hard on the Afghanis, when more than half of the WTC/Pentagon terrorists are listed as Saudi nationals. Bin Laden himself is a Saudi. The Taliban may be harboring and training terrorists, but Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for the anti-American fanatics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree totally with your first point, vineyridge. However, per your second point, I don't think "we're" focusing too hard on just Afghanistan. I think the initial piercing focus is on that country because it is believed that Bin Laden is physically there now. As far as going after other terrorists, I'm sure Saudi Arabia is in forefront of many minds, along with a few other countries.

Charis

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:46 AM

Over 60% of the Taliban "Clerics" who are currently in Afganistan are Pakistani, NOT Saudis.
I hope it is beginning to dawn on folks the EXTENT and spread of this cancer upon civilization.

Did anyone else hear Tony Blair's speech this AM??
(10/2) Unbelievable....Please get a transcript and READ it!!!

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:50 AM

I would suppose, vineyridge, that we (the US and affiliated media outlets) are trying to avoid being tough on the Saudis because we consider them allies from way back and we need their cooperation at the moment? Never mind that the Saudi government is an oppressive dictatorship - the US is having to tiptoe around an awkward deal-making game with some other unsavory characters in order to cobble together an international coalition against the terrorists.

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:52 AM

Thank you, DMK & Heidi, for your courteous responses to my question. I admit to getting confused among the barrage of threads, and appreciate the time you took to reply.

DMK - thanks for the list of suggested reading - I know you didn't mean it as a suggestion, but there are some books on there I haven't read & now intend to. Except the one on basketball - UGH! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Absolutely don't want "shortcut" labels on anyone - left, liberal, democrat, socialist, etc. I've even been called a reactionary on this thread by someone who doesn't know me at all and apparently hasn't understood a word I've written.
No, I don't necessarily agree entirely with Ted Nugent - closer to his comments however than to Karl Marx. Even closer to Groucho Marx probably. I thought it was a different and interesting POV. As to why he gets paid for his opinions - good manager, maybe?

NParkes - did your post mean you'd like to know my beliefs? Briefly, Constitutional government; decentralization of governmental functions usurped by the federal government; individual rights and responsibilities; work ethic... I don't like Pres. Bush's domestic, environmental or energy policies or his political link to the religious right at all, but I do think he is handling the terrorist issue well so far. I believe in education and the opportunity of each citizen to improve his or her life. I respect the right of every person to choose his or her path without restriction so long as it does not harm others. I regret the apparent domination of material over spiritual values in our society. I don't believe that I work 40-60 hours a week so some able-bodied person unknown to me can work not at all. I honor our elders and think for the most part they are living gallantly in a society which mostly disregards them. If I have to help pay for your children, then I reserve the right to express my opinion of their behaviour. I love my family (2- and 4-footed,) my friends, and the fact that we live in a country where we are free to have an open discussion in a public forum such as this BB, at the same time that I recognize there can be a cost to preserving our freedom. I value the mental contact with all of you, perhaps especially those with whom I disagree because you make me examine my thoughts and present POV's I may not have considered. 'Nuff said?

OK - it wasn't brief. It was punctuated, however. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:53 AM

No kidding Charis - and as the Jane's article discussed, Afghanistan has been a training ground for terrorists in many ways...

"The Afghan alumni

While not all saw combat, some 5,000 Saudis, 3,000 Yemenis, 2,800 Algerians, 2,000 Egyptians, 400 Tunisians, 350 Iraqis, 200 Libyans and dozens of Jordanians served alongside the Afghani mujahideen in the war. Between 1,000 and 1,500 of them returned to Algeria and formed the backbone of the Islamic radicals who are continuing to fight against the government in what has been a nine-year civil war that has claimed more than 100,000 lives. Those who returned to Egypt became valued members of the Gamaa Islamiya and the Gihad group, but their success was severely limited by arrest campaigns and several mass trials in the 1990s under the title of 'the returnees from Afghanistan'. Some Egyptians, who saw that they would be imprisoned if they returned home, remained in Afghanistan or took refuge wherever they could. US authorities have said that as many as 200Afghan alumni settled in the New York/New Jersey area, some of them congregating around the New Jersey mosque where Omar Abdel Rahman preached."

pt - loved your statement on your beliefs - may I adopt them as my own? Pretty much summed up my beliefs! As for the books, may I recommend Guns, Germs and Steel along with Betrayal of Trust for starters? My bedside-reading-ego, notwithstanding, they are excellent books!

Midge

Oct. 2, 2001, 09:27 AM

Did someone actually pay Ted Nugent for his comments? I thought he offered them up for free, like we do /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 09:40 AM

Needless to say, all women in Afghanistan stay at home, stripped of their fundamental rights to education and work so that they may simply feed their children.

Beyond the military, it seems clear that we in the western nations must address the doomed and miserable plight of the women in Afghanistan. While seeking justice for the 6,000 lost lives in the terrorist attacks, let's also seek justice for the plight of Afghani women - for it's they who represent an end to religious fundamentalism and any hope for democracy in that part of the world.

www.rawa.org (http://www.rawa.org)

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:16 AM

pt,

Thanks for the personal statement. I have a feeling that I might be at least one of the "reactionary" name-callers you refer to. To be sure, in a forum like this one draws conclusions from the information given by other posters, which generally does not provide a complete picture. I apologize if I misrepresented you. I am likewise fascinated by the things that people call me here, which are almost always spectacularly inaccurate. Wanna know what I think about stuff? (Everyone's favorite topic is themselves, so what the heck!)

I think institutionalized racism is a powerful force in the US, and it's invisible to most of us. We are too quick to blame lack of achievement on lack of personal worth, and have little comprehension of the very real barriers to success that minorities have to deal with. Anyone who disputes this should read more about the history of redlining in mortgage lending.

I have been writing letters since the mid-90's to my congresspeople about the Taleban and how they need a good international spanking.

I am a feminist, which means I recognize that women have not gotten a fair shake in the past, are still not getting a fair shake, and that this situation needs to be remedied.

I think untrammeled capitalism is as inhumane as communism. It is inaccurate to equate capitalism with democracy (apples and oranges) and unwise to assume that corporate CEOs and stockholders have our best interests at heart-they have consistently proven that they do not.

I think artifacts have politics--phones, toasters, bridges and car seats.

I prefer parliamentary social democracy a la the Netherlands and Sweden. No extremes of wealth and poverty, great municipal services, literate population, nobody falls between the cracks, small businesses are protected from predatory business practices, strong labor unions enforce people-centered employment policy. I like it when the state serves its citizens before its campaign contributors. Which is not to say that this setup does not have room for improvement - there are some things about western Europe that would drive me up a wall if I lived there.

I think there are some things that the US does well, politically speaking, and some things it does poorly. I think we spend too much time being self-congratulatory and not enough time trying to fix the broken parts. I would award the Greatest Nation on Earth certificate to Canada or the Netherlands, if measuring by things like overall quality of life, access to civil liberties, citizen participation in public issues, literacy, access to education and so on.

I think americans are in general very poorly informed about what is going on in the rest of the world. I also think that the emphasis on individualism is often (not always, but often!) a code for racism and greed. I think it's immoral that our nation uses far more than its fair share of the world's resources, and that we've left a wake of misery in other places in the world to ensure that we have an uninterrupted supply of oil for our SUV's.

Uhhh, this is long enough to make anyone's eyes roll back in their heads, so I'll shut up now.

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:21 AM

"Uhhh, this is long enough to make anyone's eyes roll back in their heads, so I'll shut up now."

No, hobson! your post did NOT make my eyes roll back in the least. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If I had to place bets on who wins the war against terrorism, I'd put my money on terrorism - it's not going anywhere. Declaring a war in this kind of situation is such a tricky thing - if we are not a war with terrorism, and not at war with any particular nation, then where do we point the cannons? So I'd contend that we (the rhetorical "we" not the BB "we") need to rethink the 20th-century concept of "war" and try to define some new, more applicable ways of meting out justice. I'll have to delve into my theories of justice texts and get back to you on this one...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

versus!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The will of the American people will decide this war.
If we are to win, it will be because we have what it
takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from
our mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do that,
we will eventually prevail.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Defeat will be from the inside and not from the outside at all.

By the way I do apologize for the "children" thing but I must admit my stubborn came up and I did feel a need to retaliate, for that I apologize and for my weakness not to be committed to my own conviction and I was behaving as badly as the other children in the school yard. I should know better and have better self control.

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:34 AM

Hobson - yup, you were one /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...thanks for the comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I think artifacts have politics--phones, toasters, bridges and car seats. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely! Falls into what I term "the inherent intransigence of inanimate objects."

Thanks, too, for the precis of your beliefs - you have a much bleaker view of the US than I, and a much rosier view of "parliamentary socialism" but hey! we can't agree on more than one thing per thread, can we? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's definitely a fine line to balance any form of government and economic system with humane principles. I do think that the US as set out in the (amended) Constitution should have come closer than most - if we can get rid of government by corporate contribution, it'll help a lot.

Sorry, Hobson - as a single working woman, I just don't want to pay the taxes the residents of the Netherlands and Canada pay. My taxes are bad enough - footing the bill for all their social giveaway programs would put me well below the poverty line. Just call me selfish, but my 40-60 hours a week just about supports me & the 4-footies as it is - emphasis on oatmeal cuisine and clothes from resale shops. I can't believe there isn't some way to improve the general quality of life without impoverishing the middle class. But you probably disagree and that's ok - we're each just one vote after all!

Heidi - I agree with you completely about the status of women (also probably with Hobson - yipes!) A great deal of the fundamentalist Islamic distaste for western civ. has to do with our treatment of women. Of course, a great deal of fundamentalist Christian distaste for modern western society stands on the same base. There's an idea - get Bin Laden & Falwell together - on the next space probe to Mars.... Anyway, the total wastage and abuse of women in Muslim nations, esp. Afghanistan, is outrageous. I was thinking about that last night as I went to a movie, drove my truck (using oil, Hobson - I live in the country, what can I say /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) to grocery shop at 9PM, then to the barn for bedcheck on the beasties. Clear cause for being stoned to death in Afghanistan....IMO, every woman in the world has a deep personal stake in the plight of Afghan women.

JMHO, of course.

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:44 AM

pt,

it's true that one must have a certain tolerance of taxes to put up with the welfare state. But the important point about it is that everyone benefits - even my upper-middle-class brother-in-law, who has a high-ranking position in a German bank, receives child care subsidies from the state. The system sustains itself not only on personal income taxes but also on heavier corporate taxation--and still small businesses prosper (better than here, anyway) and European coporations are taking over american ones. I visit Europe frequently - have family and friends there - and they all look pretty wealthy to me, so something is working.

InWhyCee

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:48 AM

I visit Europe frequently - have family and friends there - and they all look pretty wealthy to me, so something is working.
_______________________________

Agreed... of course, the Europeans don't tend to live in pre-fabricated mini-estates or drive gas-guzzling cars to impress the neighbors. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 2, 2001, 10:57 AM

edit

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 11:02 AM

LOL Worthy - I've spent most of my working life working for Evil Insurance Companies - we are much more subtle than that!!! But still eeeeevil, of course - we pride ourselves in that regard /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HeyYouNags

Oct. 2, 2001, 11:12 AM

About 12 years ago, my uninsured sister spent several hours waiting, without treatment, in a smaller hospital's emergency room - they couldn't find a shock-trauma unit that would accept her after a car accident, despite the very serious nature of her injuries. She had recently returned from 2 years in the Peace Corp, and didn't have a "real job" yet, so no health insurance...

I've heard complaints from Canadians about their health care system, but ours certainly has room for improvement.

Oct. 2, 2001, 11:27 AM

RE: welfare state

See, I don't understand why an upper middle class high-ranking banker with presumably a high-ranking salary should get child care subsidies at the expense of lower middle class struggling workers like me.

I am actually able to live in a decent, not fancy but decent house, and support myself and critters. No health insurance - like many in the US and that's not good - but under the welfare state, I'd be lucky to live in a one-room tenement, having come from the vet after crying my eyes out while my family was murdered. So someone could have a bigger slice of the $$$$ I work for? And therefore live well off my hard work while I have nothing???

NOT!!

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 11:48 AM

Canada certainly isn't a picture of perfection - politically, economically, socially, or otherwise.

Provincially, our government has slashed through the budgets of public schools, universal health care, though 'free' also entails a year-long waiting list for simple procedures like MRIs; and many cancer patients, among them one of my best friends, have to live in Buffalo for endless months in order to receive chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Doctors' and nurses' salaries are also capped in this country and thus we suffer through a brain-drain contiuum as many flee to the U.S. where one is able to earn more and keep more.

There is an increase in the working poor and homelessness; and a full quarter of this country's children live under the poverty level.

We have as many reactionary yahoos as the States; thankfully, though, they're usually not armed. We are as capable as anyone to engage in hate and racism. A 16-year-old Pakistani boy in Ottawa was beaten by a group of teenagers following September 11 and left unconscious for five hours on the ground - only to be found by his mother who'd started roaming the streets looking for her son.

Paying 50+% income tax rates, 15% sales tax on every good and service purchased, increased property taxes, you'd think the coffers of the provincial and federal governments would be adequately stuffed to take care of the needs of ALL Canadians. Clearly, not the case.

And I can only speak to my own opinions but, as heavily taxed as we are, I've never thought to blame welfare mothers and visible minorities for this state of heavily-taxed affairs.

We as Canadians, though, do enjoy a sense of social security that is perhaps less common in the States. Imperfect, yes, but we can all seek medical care. University tuitions are subsidized/capped so it is possible for most to attend a good university for roughly $3,500/yr. Most of my friends have never seen a gun and find some of the ballyhooed Constitutional amendments rather baffling.

And we share the freedom of our neighbours to the south in engaging in political 'bashing' - Dubya has nothing on Jean Poutine. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 2, 2001, 11:51 AM

edit

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:07 PM

whoops, the COTH arab/international events studies group has gotten a little off on a tangent!

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:09 PM

Worthy, we also have the problem here of people going to the ER and calling 911 for things like colds and very minor health problems. They usually do it because they don't have health insurance, though, and can't afford a visit to a GP.

Snowbird

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:09 PM

The state should make the decision as to who is economically valuable enough to spend money on to save them.

Sure what a great concept, give up what you earn from working so the government can make the big decisions for you.

Example: My husband is 77 and just had triple by-pass surgery. Since he is retired and the prognosis doesn't guarantee a long productive number of years should the state waste money on his surgery?

A pre-mature baby will most likely have serious defects and therefore require support from the state for it's whole life should we let the state decide if it is worth the investment?

Yeah! our system isn't perfect but it beats punishing people for being successful and creating profitable job opportunities.

We had a system not too long ago where those making a lot of money had to pay 90% of that income in taxes. Gee! keeping 10% certainly is a good motivation to create a business boom isn't it?

Where is the authority for this government to be in the business of re-allocating money? Where is it beneficial to discourage people from making enough money to be able to afford to care for themselves? How do you implement the great "American" dream that our children should have it better than we did if we pay all the money to the state?

The Marxist who philosophized these ideas have been proved wrong. Remember Marx said "to each what he needs". Well by gum! no one wanted to work they all wanted to collect. Didn't work at all.

Personal responsibility and individuality are what has been proved to work. So they modified a smidge, and we have socialism the step to the right. Your can't have it both ways, either the government is stupid and corrupt or they are intelligent and caring and you want to have a caretaker.

If the government and the politicians are so pathetically egocentric why would you trust them with your life and your children? What assurance do you have they wouldn't just do what has happened in other countries and all the tax money will wind up in secret swiss bank accounts saved for a rainy day for the guys who collect the money?

I wonder if you asked those friends of yours collecting entitlements for child care if they would rather have kept control of their own money and decided if they even wanted child care what they would say?

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Regarding DMK's post - wow....what an ego - like we needed to know the books on your bedstand. Who has time to read in bed???? I have a breeding business and fall into bed, head hits the pillow and I'm out!! But you seem to be very solid in your leftist leanings - I guess someone has to be way out there. What's the old saying??? If you aren't a Democrat when you are young ...you don't have a heart, if you aren't a Republican as an adult...you don't have a brain?? tee hee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you are a bit intimidated by the fact that DMK chooses to read something other than People or Harlequin Romances? I do believe she had offerings from both sides of the fence. Perhaps your idea of fine literature is Rush Limbaugh. I'm glad DMK is honest about where her beliefs come from, and that she is well read. Where do you get your ideas Ilona, what do you read?
I, one of those foolish liberals read things like Mother Jones, and my latest books have been Jacob Riis, How the Other half Lives, and Barbara Eichmans (sp?) book Nickled and Dimed, or How not to Get By in America (she must be one of those idiot liberals - imagine paying employees a living wage, or even paying them for 100% of the time they work!).
Sorry bout the rant, but you, Ilona, have ticked me off by making fun of the most rational person on this topic.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:10 PM

recent reports of a tremendous spurt in gun purchases by Americans in recent weeks? How exactly is this going to help defend the average citizen against terrorist attacks?!

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:12 PM

Midge-
Thanks, I was looking for Nader, but yes, in general there always seem to be a few Libertarians on the ballot. I often vote for them on a more local level!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:14 PM

I second your remarks wholeheartedly - is it a matter of ego for DMK to be well-informed and open-minded on world affairs? I don't think so....

BTW, that book on Guns, Germs and Steel (i always want to slip Butter into that title, old cliches die hard) is one heck of a good read for anyone interested in taking the long view on human civilizations....

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:15 PM

Well, halfhalt, I dunno - shoot the next hijacked plane out of the sky before it crashes into the nuclear reactor in the next town?

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:21 PM

just a wee bit off tangent!!

This is a subject near and dear to my heart, especially given the crisis state the health care system is in.

While I don't believe this country would/could/should ever have socialized medicine - it's just not our cup of tea, so to speak, I can't ignore the fact that the US per capita spending on health care is the highest in the world, but yet our life expectancy ranks well below most of the so called developed world. And our IMR? That is shameful - barely above some of the undeveloped countries.

Without question, most of the socialized medicine programs are rife with problems, but by any measure, we haven't solved the problem either.

Wish I had an answer. I spent the last decade listening to some of our most gifted minds from both parties trying to think of ways to start to address this problem. And while there has definitely been the usual partisan positioning around some issues, believe me, no one has any real grasp about how to fix it in a way that is win-win for all parties. Every solution has a big loser, and nobody wants to address that.

Arab studies, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:23 PM

I'm not familiar with Bueller. Tell about Bueller!

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:26 PM

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Turns out Bueller had the "take the day off approach to Arab Studies!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:28 PM

I think our problem in this country is that we are reactionary. We don't plan and never seem to think ahead a few years down the road. I see it in everything from how we design our cars, foreign policy, enviro issues, and even health care.
I don't know if it is because we are so busy putting out fires that we just don't have time to plan or what...

Ride it Like You Stole It...

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:31 PM

Everyone always talks about waiting lists for surgeries and diagnostic services etc. but the odd thing is, my own experience has been contrary - in the past 5 yrs, my daughter has needed MRI's on more than one occasion, and never had to wait more than 10 days - i think the system must include a priorizing step to make sure that more urgent needs are met. Or maybe it differs greatly between provinces.

What i do know, is that no parent in Canada ever has to make that horrible choice between putting food on the table or taking their child to the doctor when they weren't quite sure if it was really serious...for those of us involved in the horsey sports, that might not seem like such a big deal, but think about what it means to the parent of below average means....

No doubt also the high infant mortality rate in the US - higher i believe than any European country by a considerable degreee and higher (dare i mention) than Cuba's - is another unfortunate consequence....

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:33 PM

I dont' read People magazine - wouldn't waste my time on romance novels - and I detest Rush Limbaugh - NOW WHAT'S YOUR SNOTTY RETORT??

What I read doesn't determine my worth - you seem to feel it does. How I live my life and the values I have is, IMHO, a better yardstick than what's on the nightstand. I've never read in bed - FYI.

I'll wait to see what creative response you and DMK can come up with now. Tittilating but certainly not educating.

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:36 PM

Actually, Ilona, I was planning on taking Magnolia to task for dissing Harlequin romances...

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:40 PM

your response, albeit creative, was simply not titillating enough for my tastes...

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:43 PM

Well, my gosh - I always thought Harlequin Romances tried to be quite tit-illating.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:44 PM

I don't really have a retort... I never do read in bed either, I tend to fall asleep.
I'm glad you are proud of your values and lifestyle. I don't really know what they are, but I'm sure you are a fine person. For me, I can often tell a lot about a person by what they read.
Personally, I like when people share their latest readings with me, as I may find something of interest in them. Perhaps you read something that may interest me? Or, perhaps not. You don't need to be rude to somebody because their booklist differs from yours.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Sleepy

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:47 PM

Ilona, what you read may not determine your worth, but it is indicative of your interests and values in much the same way as what you spend your money on.

BTW, are you always in a snit or you just playing devil's advocate today?

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:47 PM

Oops, nothing wrong with romances, heck, for every copy of MoJo I read, I read 10 issues of things like the Chronicle (yes, I read it for those perty horse pictures), or Martha Stewart. I even read People when at the Doctor's office or gym! Just trying to point out more innocuous, less political reading material which may have been acceptable to our friend!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:48 PM

You read about it - we live it. My husband has been the President of a World Trade Finance company and involved in Counter Trade (world barter) for well over 20 years. When some of you were reading Mother Jones - we knew up close and personal about people behind the Iron Curtain and in the Stans and places in China that hadn't seen people with blue eyes before my husband came into town.

How women and children were treated and were living was something we certainly knew about. So sit back and slow down and stop making such horrible statements about the beliefs, readings, education or moral ethics of people on this board.

You want the government to be your big provider - I DON'T. And if you believe people in Germany live so much better - why is the Deutchmark 1/2 the value of the dollar??? Come on - if you want to debate the concept of economics and market strength and which corporations are buying out which corporations and why - fine - let's get at it. But let's stick to factual information when it comes to finance and economics - sorry my B'School training doesn't allow debate without factual substance.

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:48 PM

Let's not judge books by their covers, people. Even a book featuring on its cover Fabio in a pirate costume and a bodice-busting lady in distress/throes of ecstasy may very well contain important observations about the human condition, and keen analyses of the prevailing socioeconomic order.

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:49 PM

Well I can only hope /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Tittilating but certainly not educating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's very little educational value to be gleaned when the word's misspelt.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:51 PM

How do you spell titalating? Tittilating?
You know, Fabio got his start modeling in safety clothing catalogs!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:53 PM

I guess you job is spelling police - so much for input!

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:54 PM

because your husband is a Very Important Person in a Very Important Company, that means that you have a monopoly on the a factually based understanding of world affairs......

Hmmmm....

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:54 PM

I thought it especially titillating when a pigeon flew smack dab into Fabio's nose a couple of years back while riding a roller coaster.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:57 PM

IlonaE,
I think that there are more important aspects to society than the almighty dollar. I'm one of those people who would gladly make do with less if I didn't have to work as much. Germans, with their lesser economy, also are given a lot more free time to enjoy their families.
Yes, the US is a great place to make money, but if that's not your main thing, well, there may be more desirable places to live, like Germany where you get at least a month of vacation and a 40 hour work week.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:58 PM

Heidi - are you signing up for grammar police too?

hobson, that was a beautiful rendition of a deep and meaningful topic - you can be sure I will stop by the romance section of Barnes & Noble tonight so as to better myself /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 12:59 PM

Thank you Heidi, especially for using the word in a sentence! Are you an english teacher? My mom is and she goes nuts over poor spelling, punctuation, and grammar.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:00 PM

the fastest shifts in 1) topic and 2) mood of any COTH thread so far - not to mention the most allusions to Fabio...

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:02 PM

I mostly read Clancy types and murder mysteries. I wonder what that says about moi? We'll ignore my rows of Claire Darcy's, Georgette Heyers, et al hidden behind my old polical science and econ text books (including Marxism - my paper is still required reading in that subject - who would have thought! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in the bookcase upstairs. Hmmmmm /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And I still need to get my hands on a certain book for it's cover... /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:03 PM

but i just have to point out that i corrected the spelling error first, so there!

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:04 PM

what was a pigeon doing riding a roller coaster?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK, please, I love Ferris Bueller! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:04 PM

halfhalt, if you don't support Fabio, then I suggest you move to some nasty anti-Fabio country and learn to speak...ummmm...learn to speak.....can somebody help me here? My condemnation is falling a little short.

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:04 PM

You know... this thread had an early reference to peeps... Any ideas how to best combine Fabio and Peeps?

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:05 PM

Hello, halfhalt, how dare you try to sneakily steal my crown as the spelling queen of the BB! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There was nothing in your post worthy of a response Ilona, but the obvious glaring one.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:05 PM

I can't believe it's not Butter....Spray!
They had an interview with Fabio in a local newspaper once and apparently, he is quite aware of world politics. The reporter asked him some non-fluff question, and I guess Fabio went on and on about the problems of the world, quite intelligently, to the dismay of his management.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

InWhyCee

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:05 PM

My husband is 77 and just had triple by-pass surgery. Since he is retired and the prognosis doesn't guarantee a long productive number of years should the state waste money on his surgery?
______________________

Are you trying to tell me that his health-
insurance company is happily throwing money at him? Aren't most senior citizens already dealing with Medicare because the HMOs don't want them?

Speaking of People magazine (someone was, for what reason I don't know), do read the recent piece on the family who sued their medical insurers for denying their anorexic daughter medical care her doctor says was essential. (Why bother with therapy or rehab when you can pump the patient full of low-cost drugs?) Daughter eventually committed suicide; family won the case... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
You know... this thread had an early reference to peeps... Any ideas how to best combine Fabio and Peeps?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most women on the board don't mind having their Peeps at Fabio. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

vineyridge

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:07 PM

I interviewed a romance novelist once, and learned that traditional moral values and FEMINISM are the bedrock upon which the soft porn rests. Yeah. Sure /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:08 PM

Probably the young things on this board have no clue who this Fabio dude is anyway, lol....!

And heidi, don't worry, i bow before your superior spelling ability - come to think of it, this spelling obsession probably reveals our aged status as well....

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:09 PM

I think you've got it Duffy!!

Hey, vineyridge - I've heard less plausible theories!

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:09 PM

The world is a dangerous place isn't it, NP Fisher when an innocent pigeon can't ride in a roller coaster without the threat of errant Fabio's hurtling through the air.

If this isn't eerie, don't know what is: Fabio...peeps...pigeons. Someone, please consult your Nostradamus and shed light on this phenomena.

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:10 PM

My mom is a big Tom Clancy fan, as is my brother. Perhaps you would enjoy the Clive Cussler books as well. A lot of suspence and intrigue with a little romance thrown in. I really don't know what your book list says about you...

Fabio and some peeps, now that sounds like a fun night to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ride it Like You Stole It...

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by heidi-ugh:

If this isn't eerie, don't know what is: Fabio...peeps...pigeons. Someone, please consult your Nostradamus and shed light on this phenomena.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there IS a Nostradamus thingy about this, something like, In the year of the pink squishy bunnies, a winged avenger will hurl itself upon the twin pectoral brothers...

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:14 PM

On the third day of the 3rd millenium, a great falcon will fly. It's course shall be interupted by a golden haired angel of death in the sky. The heavens shall rain a golden oil substance in mourning for the falcon, clogging the hearts of those who worship the golden haired angel of death

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:16 PM

Hobson,
I do prefer your interpretation. Was Fabio at an amusement park on the 45th parallel when that occured? Now I can sleep better, knowing that is the sign for the end of the world....

Ride it Like You Stole It...

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:19 PM

Oh magnolia!!! TOO FUNNY! You MUST be extremely well-read OR have an unbelievable imagination! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I read Clive as well, along with Sandra Brown, Catherine Coulter, Patricia Cornwell, David Balducci... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:24 PM

What about John Le Carre novels?

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:26 PM

Le Carre? And I thought I read heavy stuff!!

Still a Ludlum fan, through and through...

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:27 PM

I, for one, love le Carre.

Speaking of mysteries, love Ruth Rendell, her pseudo Barbara Vine, P.D. James, Patricia Highsmith, Minette Walters. It's odd, isn't it, that women also dominate this often-macabre genre?

Goodyfourshoes!

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:30 PM

edit

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:33 PM

...Patricia Highsmith, heidi, but two thumbs up on the others.

DMK, I read virtually no non-fiction any more, except stuff like Stephen Jay Gould (now there's a smart man!) and other eco-related things...and of course, Steinkraus, de Nemethy, et al. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Worthy:
Stephen King.

What on earth does that make me???? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It makes you...happy, because there is a sequel to The Talisman! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:36 PM

Sniff, Sniff....I'm feeling so Trivial and Superficial...sniff..sniff.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:36 PM

I am partial to the B's
William Boyd, Larry Brown, Paul Bowles, Richard Bausch

also Joan Didion, Alice Munro, Mary Gaitskill

next to my bed, where I sometimes get a chance to read /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , is the Bill Steinkraus book, Boyd's Armadillo, the latest Atlantic Monthly, a little book called What we have learned about technology from the Russian experience, my own book-in-the-editing process (a little teacher's guide about child sexual abuse), the latest Spiegel and an overly dry article that my honey, Dr Hobson, wrote in which he proposes a framework for categorizing the types of relationships between democratic governments and progressive social movements.

hobson, intellectual show-off par excellence /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:39 PM

ooooh hobson - I am not worthy!

Here I was thinking "Gee... there's a sequel to Talisman?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:39 PM

Oh, you should see my bathroom reading! That's where the horsey magazines and catalogs live, along with some "worthless and trivial" magazines. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

halfhalt

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:41 PM

try the Germs, guns and steel thing that DMK mentioned, it's very much at the interface between ecology and sociology IMHO....

and Hobson, you read your hubbie's academic articles, that is true love....!

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:44 PM

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OMG, hobson, real literature! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I only remember that there is such a thing!

Read one collection of Paul Bowles (a while back, can't remember title, written in Morocco) which was about the eeriest thing I've ever read...

Buellerism is in effect today!

hobson

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:46 PM

What was that, DMK? It's hard to hear you, my child, from way up here in the halls of superiordom. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

(pssst! I forgot to mention the trashy supermarket mystery hidden under all of that!)

by the way, DMK, can I blame you for the way my auto insurance company is jerking us around trying to avoid paying a settlement for Mr Hobson's loss of his spleen and very expensive bicycle to an uninsured driver?

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:49 PM

That sounds much more serious than "World of the Ants" (actually written by two of the world's authorities on ants, if anyone cares /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) but I will put it on the list.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 2, 2001, 01:50 PM

[QUOTE] Punctuation is also a handy friend to have when feeling epic. [/QUOTE

Y'all are hilarious.....
Betsy (in MD)

DMK

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hobson:

by the way, DMK, can I blame you for the way my auto insurance company is jerking us around trying to avoid paying a settlement for Mr Hobson's loss of his spleen and very expensive bicycle to an uninsured driver?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably!!! I have accepted blame for any number of insurance foibles and follies over the years from my family - no reason I couldn't extend it to my BB family too!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

True Story: Way back when I was far too committed to my job, I was driving in to work on Sunday to see if there was about anything I could do to rearrange benefits/loads/whatever, to avoid raising insurance rates for a fairly large sector of business we acquired. Let's just say it was way underpriced and losing a lot of money. Well this particularly annoying policeman felt compelled to give me a speeding ticket (some people are so picky that way).

It just so happened that particular municipality was included in the pool I was evaluating. Let's just say, when begging, whining and crying didn't get me out of a ticket /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I opted for blackmail... "If you give me this ticket I will be so distraught, I will have NO choice but to raise your insurance rates!" I guess if he had taken me seriously he would have arrested me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:10 PM

DMK, was that before or after you did the tossing back of your red tresses and batted those lashes at the poor unsuspecting officer? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HeyYouNags

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:13 PM

Heidi is hung up on punctuation because she's a comma-nist.

I guess earlier accusations were on target, and I do live in a fantasy world, since I mostly read fiction, except it's the kind of fiction they made you read in college. Recently finished Native Son, which was written by a communist. Will I go to heck for that? I have been known to curl up with a scintillating animal health journal or text as well.

Y'all's reading lists sound much more literate. Might have to get a copy of that Guns and Germs book, though.

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:16 PM

Don't be fooled, those are just the ones we 'fess up to! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:20 PM

I think it'd be a fine time to re-broadcast the film, "Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media".

I'm going to start reading the companion book tonight (in bed, where very little happens but the turning of pages /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) and would be happy to pass it on should my fellow intellectual snobs-and-good-for-nothings wish to read it.

HYN, aw shucks, girlie, that's the nicest things anyone's called me all day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:26 PM

Can't believe all you intellek-chuls have missed Eric van Lustbader!

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:27 PM

You missed the point - but I know you wanted to so we'll just let that go by. My husband is a VIP to me, but he's been able to be involved in parts of the world many people haven't - and much of what is written simply isn't true and first hand experiences are always better and more accurate than people sitting at a typewriter making observations on the world without experience.

BTW - the most influential woman in my life was my maternal grandmother. Couldn't read or write - no books on her nightstand. But she came here alone at 13 from the Ukraine and owned her own business and was a truly gifted woman when it came to life, morality and what was important. Now how would all of you rate her??

People are fortunately free to go and live where ever they want. If you seek long vacations and the lifestyle of what you perceive is all over Germany - then why not go live there?? We seem to have a lot on this BB with more and more about what's wrong with America...I guess my grandparents came here because of what was very right about the place. Yes I believe in Capitalism - a free market is the ultimate freedom and always offers so much more to people in all socio-economic levels.

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:29 PM

This is a great group -

We've been through the WTC disaster, Arab discussion, social problems/justice(???)/remedies, a not inconsiderable amount of slanging & mudslinging, and now we finally reveal our true selves

as we wallow in

our secret trash literature!!!!

Whatta great group!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:36 PM

"It's not a thread--it's an adventure!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:38 PM

My mom had to read Walden for the book club which is composed of people who live in her golf course community......

DMK, what a funny story about the police officer. way to stick it to them!

My favorite "trashy" book is Valley of the Dolls. The movie rocks! I also recently enjoyed the "tell-all" about the horse insurance murderers, and I like the All Creatures Great and Small series (which isn't very trashy at all..., although it takes place in England, where they have all those tabloids).

Ride it Like You Stole It...

N&B&T

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:41 PM

I am sure all of us would/do rate your grandmother VERY highly--perhaps you were seeing things in some of the booklist postings that really were not there, or meant in the way you might have thought?

And I for one love to hear about people's actual experiences in other countries/places, with other people--however I will say that there is a filter there, too, of each person's perspective on the experiences they have. People will perceive, react to, and take away very different things from the same experience.

A good writer can convey this, so well-written books are just someone "telling" us of what they have seen and thought about.

Oct. 2, 2001, 02:59 PM

I grew up in the "third" world and I agree with you that first hand experience is invaluable. I lived in Pakistan and visited Kabul as a child.

Here's my simple and naive outlook:
People there are very very hungry.
Mothers watch their babies die from measles and diarrhea.
Men and woman work from sunrise to sunset in back breaking labor and never manage to acquire land or property.
Families rise with despair and go to sleep with desperation.
The U.S government misguidely funds projects that have little or no benefit for the average citizen.
Terrorists are born of the philosophy that: "When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose."

Snowbird

Oct. 2, 2001, 05:42 PM

I haven't had time to read all the jibber out here my lord 4 pages since I signed off last.

But, Ilona I knew there was a reason why I understood you. One my favorite name should have been Ilona, on my birth certificate it says my naame was supposed to be Illonka. But then it's all in hungarian so no one can even read my birth certificate.

Anyway when you mentioned that your mother came from the Ukraine then I knew for sure. By any chance any where near UzHorod? That's where my mom grew up. That is a uniques and special place with people who have special genes for independence of thought and action.

My mother went back to visit awhile ago, before Russia fell apart and I'm lucky she ever got home. Apparently, the rule is that she was only supposed to visit in the hotel for "internationals" but she said she had to go the bathroom to escape the guards and snuck out the back door where her family was waiting for her to take her back to the farm.

I have also been solicited by a Cossack group anxious to make the American Tour. They are the ones who perform all over Europe, how they found me I don't know but I haven't been helpful because I haven't a clue how to arrange a national tour. Especially since I am certain it is not their intention to return to the Ukraine.

Anyway, these young bleeding hearts have not had the experience on which to found their judgments so don't let them get to you. They have yet to learn the books on your night stand are not a sign of your education because the books haven't been read yet.

Duffy

Oct. 2, 2001, 06:11 PM

Hmmmmm...How to try to say this...No one is judging anyone by what freaking books they have on their nightstand. Not that some of them aren't interesting...But that aside, the only problem I've had with some posters is in the unjustified grouping of posters into certain classifications, by age group or whatever...To assume that someone does not understand/comprehend/empathize what others in different parts of the world, or even this country, are going through/have been through is ludicrous.

Some fellow posters have assumed that I'm just a fashion princess. HAHA...Only a few know what I've been through in my lifetime and I know that others have been through much more. One cannot judge a person by his/her posts entirely. Some people are just plain better writers and some voice their opinions stronger/better/more eloquently/persuasively/less antagonistically than others. I think that is one of the best parts about this BB. One can reveal as much or as little as one likes. Boy, I've gotten off tangent, and I apologize.

Snowbird, I respect what you've been through in your lifetime and hope that you'll be around many more years. However, I respect many other posters as well, though they may not have been on this earth as long. They have much to offer as well, in their witticism, intelligence, empathy, etc.

Oye, guess I'll be editing/deleting this one before the night is out. Not sure if I made any sense, let alone the point I was attempting to make. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Heidi

Oct. 2, 2001, 06:13 PM

Have you not read and digested a singular thing that those you so delightedly dismiss as "bleeding hearts" have so eloquently written? How dare you dismiss these intelligent, considerate and educated posters.

Make your grand pronouncements under the conceit that somehow, by virtue of your age, you have a greater insight and perspective; proselytize under the mistaken assumption that by virtue of your age you are owed an unearned respect. I mostly find you self-serving, terribly offensive; and your opinions shameful. You could learn a thing or two from my 90 year old grandmother.

Congrats to you Snowbird, you have successfully driven me from this BB. Don't want to share the virtual airspace with the stubbornly obtuse any longer.

SLW

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:36 PM

If Bush opened a can of whoop a$$ three weeks ago, Tony Blair threw a Hail Mary today. God bless him!! Does he write his own speeches?? The one I heard today was incredible and moving.

SLW

elizabeth

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:40 PM

See, I've been avoiding reading the speech b/c I figured it was just another speech. (I think I'm a bit news-ed out!)

Now, though, I'm going to go find it.

Thanks for the tip, SLW.

elizabeth

Oct. 2, 2001, 07:47 PM

Found it. You GO Blair. Ka-poweee! That man can write! (They say he wrote the speech himself, which, we are told, is rare!)

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/02/ret.blair.address/

SLW

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:06 PM

Elizabeth,

I heard PM Blair speech when he gave it today and just now this part on a news clip:

< "Listen to the calls of those passengers on the planes. Think of the children on them told they were going to die. Think of the cruelty beyond our comprehension, as amongst the screams and the anguish of the innocent, those hijackers drove at full throttle planes laden with fuel into buildings where tens of thousands of people work.

They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it? >

That summed it up for me.

If he wrote it he is indeed a gifted communicator.

SLW

Snowbird

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Have you not read and digested a singular thing that those you so delightedly dismiss as "bleeding hearts" have so eloquently written? How dare you dismiss these intelligent, considerate and educated posters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dare to disagree, I dare to understand that these people in the terrorist movement care not a twit for the 7,000 innocent people they murdered. I understand they would have celebrated even more if it was 70,000 or even all of Manhattan. I dare face the reality of the fact that there are people who not going to follow the rules of civility. I can forgive you because you have not survived others equally heinous. Your information is second hand and hearsay but we who feel less concilatory have already been down that road and know it's a dead-end.

Eloquent writing in the comfort of your warm home and full stomach, is just that, and punctuation or spelling will not solve the problem nor are they a measure of the truth of an idea and an attitude.

These trimmings are no more important than stuffed suits pretending to be civilized.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Make your grand pronouncements under the conceit that somehow, by virtue of your age, you have a greater insight and perspective; proselytize under the mistaken assumption that by virtue of your age you are owed an unearned respect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your presumption and not mine. Your insecurity and not mine. I will defend my perspective based on any weapons you choose, logic, history, sociology or even psychology. I do not expect reverence simply because I have aged but because I have lived and because I can offer you first hand knowledge and not that filtered by those who try to manipulate your mind with a distorted history.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I mostly find you self-serving, terribly offensive; and your opinions shameful. You could learn a thing or two from my 90 year old grandmother.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And, I would be pleased to learn from your grandmother, I would enjoy speaking with your grandmother and you might be horrified to know how much we have in common as grandmothers. I am not too old to learn something new. Are you?

My opinions may offend you because they do not agree with yours, but they are not self serving. At my age I think a socialism might be more comfortable than the need to be responsible for my own welfare. In your Brave New World I might have time to go back to my study of the arts, since my creature comforts would be paid for with your paycheck.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Congrats to you Snowbird, you have successfully driven me from this BB. Don't want to share the virtual airspace with the stubbornly obtuse any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there you have it, perhaps you will not enjoy sharing your real space with people who disagree with you like these fanatics who believe women should not be seen or educated. So then you just capitulate, appeasement doesn't work. You go ahead and spend your life working to support us ancient ones in comfort with your taxes. Run away and hide your head in the sand like an ostrich, see if that keeps you safe. What if we all quit? What if we all capitulate? What kind of a world would you expect?

Beans

Oct. 2, 2001, 08:54 PM

I guess those of us who heard the reasons our grandparents LEFT oppression enjoy and will stand up and defend freedom. Peace is the ultimate reward but negotiating with murderers is an endgame in itself.

BTW - Ilona was my paternal grandmother's name - though she was from Slovakia - but the name IS Hungarian - quite common as I understand.

I'll email you what I know no my maternal grandmother but it's so minimal - she was from a small village - an orphaned peasant who's relatives in PA sent for her to come to America! She LOVED this country and really instilled in all of us that love of both our heritage in Eastern Europe and our country the USA. Love it or leave it I say!!!

And to those who would creep sideways when it comes time to stand up against terrorism - OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!! tee hee (Now do they know about Marie Antoinette?? or isn't that in the history of the world according to Politically Correct women??)

ohnowwhat

Oct. 2, 2001, 09:09 PM

Bye heidi.

Snowbird

Oct. 2, 2001, 09:13 PM

My mother was born here and when her father was killed in an accident her mother had no choice but to go home. I am not surprised about your lack of information, it was not unusual for immigrants in those days to reinvent themselves.

Most felt they were Hungarians because it was their country in their childhood, and then it was Austria, and then it was Czechoslovakia, and then it was Russia, and now it is the Ukraine. We recently made a trip to Budapest and our guide was a lovely 70 year old lady with more energy than I, and she would say there are a lot of Hungarians in Slovakia but it's not because they moved, they just moved the country.

I think we owe our heritage more than we might like to admit to Attila the Hun. His victory over that part of Europe changed it forever and we got a lot of those "Hun" genes. They were animal people and not farmers i.e the unbelievable dare devil Cossacks. Did you know that the Hungarians trained their horses to be surefooted by cantering up and down stairs in Buda? And, that they bred their finest mares first to a white donkey whose statue in in Budapest. The white mules of Hungary are the result of that mating. The finest bred mules in the world.

I would love to know more about your grandmother, my Mom worked her way across Europe from Uzhorod to the port in France and came here by steerage. My God! that is a courage I don't think I would ever have. Yes! she did it because this was the land of promise and it granted her her dreams. I love this country because it has meant so much to so many who didn't think they had a prayer of a life and it gave them the American Dream where the children would be safe.

I think now perhaps too safe! and too comfortable to understand there are bad people out there.

Louise

Oct. 3, 2001, 03:38 AM

I have to keep reading this thread, it's part of my job as moderator to keep up on the controversial threads on all the forums. The rest of you don't. Why don't you just abandon it? I would like nothing more than for it to drop out of sight. And, let me note, I am speaking as Louise, not as moderator Louise here.

There is too much anger here, too much stubborness, and people have reached a point where listening intelligently to other's points of view is clearly impossible.

Maybe Erin will close it, I don't know, though, I doubt it. She has too much faith in the very intrinsic value of freedom of speech to do so.

People are getting hurt, and people are posting without first thinking about what they have written. This thread is painful to read, and the saddest thread that I think I have ever had to deal with.

I'm sorry you have differences, and I'm more sorry that you can't work them out and see each other for the wonderful and unique individuals you all are.

I am so very disappointed.

M. O'Connor

Oct. 3, 2001, 05:00 AM

This has been for the most part a very good thread! One that reflects the freedoms that we may have taken for granted previously. There are differing views here, for sure, and on the part of...hmmm (how to say this tactfully?)...two posters in particular, a tendency to see the world in terms of black and white rather than in a complex series of grays, a view shared by most others. Those who choose to take the view that something is either one way or another and nothing in between tend to overlook points of agreement with those who have decided that things are not so simple.

There is plenty of agreement here--terrorists are BAD, killing innocent victims is WRONG, there is strong support for TAKING ACTION against the terrorists and those who support them.

Points of disagreement have to do with the level of responsibility that can be attributed to governments and individuals for policies that predictably or unwittingly create conditions that foster the fanatical and vicious levels of hatred that terrorists embrace. There are those of us who consider that an effort to analyse the possible results of a series of policies, taking into account how they are perceived by non-Western interests is not entirely out of line (grandmother-speak translation: "a stitch in time saves nine...") Others simply do not see this as a valid approach, and unfortunately, have expressed their opinion in a rather patronizing way...

This does not make the discussion which has taken place here less valuable, but is simply a reflection of how difficult it is to bridge gaps of mutual understanding, even among those who are generally in agreement on wider points--the same difficulties are faced by organizations such as the UN, NATO, EEC, and by the way, the Congress of the United States of America (not to mention USET / USAE-AHSA). This is life. Shutting down a discussion of it will not serve to improve the chances of solving its problems.

Louise

Oct. 3, 2001, 05:12 AM

My post was made after a practically sleepless night, caused by the fact that we have apparently lost Heidi over this disagreement. Losing a poster of her calibre is a loss to the whole BB community that cannot be measured.

I lost sight of the fact that most of the posters on this thread have been able to focus on an honest discussion, and instead concentrated on those two or three who are totally unable to see anything but their own viewpoint and have consistently insulted those who look at things differently.

Carry on, please.

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 05:29 AM

Please stay Heidi! You are the soul of thoughtful, rational discourse even when we disagree. Please don't leave me here alone with the jingoistic diatribes of the willfully ignorant!

Beans

Oct. 3, 2001, 06:08 AM

Maybe you gals could add that to your reading list. Small paperback but well worth the read. Heidi exercised "exit". I'll let you all read the concept of what our choices are with products, services, etc.....

N&B&T

Oct. 3, 2001, 06:24 AM

I'd say the barrage of flames is going in both directions...and quite frankly, IMO, it was coming almost unilaterally FROM one direction (NOT one person, one direction) until quite recently.

People here disagree...fine, that is as is SHOULD be. But if they continue to respond to ANY disagreement with their own opinions in an insulting, offensive, patronizing, personal, and petty manner, eventually other people lose their tempers as well. That is unfortunate, because they start doing what they dislike so much in others.

The everyone-is-against-me-and-other-good-right-thinking-people-but-I'll-stand-up-to-them-because-I'm-brave-and-stalwart attitude is wearing very thin, because it is contrived, totally unnecessary, inaccurate, and FALSE. Rather, it is simply attempting to make a virtue out of being closed-minded and rude. Perhaps that is not INTENDED (I hope so), but it is what is being communicated.

As others have pointed out, there is IN REALITY quite a lot of agreement here, although you have wade through an enormous amount of whatever to find it.

People who wish their own opinions to be given careful consideration should extend that courtesy to others. People who treasure their own core beliefs should recognize, while they are spraying inflammatory rhetoric, that they may be insulting the core beliefs of others.

People may hold very similar values, but express them through very different specifics and avenues. A path that works for one person may not work for another--that is no reason to denigrate the path or the reasons for it.

Lots more but I'll spare you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Unless you'd like me to pull out the parts of Ted Nugent's speech that indicate he is not particularly interested in anyone's right to free expression but his own. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:05 AM

Frankly, I would be disturbed if everyone agreed with me and even more disturbed if everyone agreed with Ilona. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Debate is very healthy, but it should not be reduced to petty name calling etc.etc.
Snowbird, I am sure that you have been through a lot in your life, but my life isn't all hunky-dorey either. I have been through some bad stuff, lived in some bad neighborhoods and known some people who have really gotten a bad lot in life. There are still people in this nation that suffer from homelessness, malnutrition and other hardships. Many of them are even employed... which is disgraceful that someone should give another man 40 hours a week of his life and not be paid enough to afford both shelter and nutritous foods.
I think we all agree that terrorism=bad things. I don't think anyone has condoned their actions. I also haven't heard anyone suggest we let the terrorists get away with this. I think we all agree on the basics.
Heidi, I hope we haven't pushed you away. Your wit is often stellar at diffusing tense situations.
Honestly, this topic is like a really good movie. There is violence, sass, humor, deep thought and even a little romance ala Fabio.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

DMK

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:05 AM

Thank you, M.O'C - that was well said, and yes, Louise, that was pretty much how I felt when I read this last night. Figured I was better off not saying anything until late in the morning.

And Heidi, nope, sorry, you have to stay. Your contributions are too important, and I neeeeeeed your humor. More importantly, I suspect such luminaries as Hillary, Al and Ted would be lost without you... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I, for one, have learned a lot since I started reading this thread. People have challenged what I believe, and forced me to reexamine or reaffirm that which I believed to be true.

As noted, a few posters have no intention or desire to engage in constructive debate, and no apparent ability to form new opinions. This is cool, nobody said they had to. And I am sure they are equally frustrated that nobody seems to understand how amazingly correct they are... If that ain't a frustrating way to go through life, I don't know what is!

But to quote my favorite "bard" before we return to the COTH Arab Studies group... "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see..."

And now (again), back to our regularly scheduled class on Arab studies. Today's reading is (again) from Janes. Interesting stuff from Rumsfield and the differences between this campaign and the "CNN" war in the Gulf...

long conflict - Janes (http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw011002_1_n.shtml)

ohnowwhat

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:15 AM

I think Heidi will be back.

For so many, this bb seems to be an irresistible platform from which to launch passionate opinions.

Time will tell.

Weatherford

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:18 AM

Hmm - late to this fight.

I have found everything everyone has said interesting - if people get hot, well, that's the nature of politics, and here we have the FREEDOM to get hot. Recent event have made me especially thankful that WOMEN have that freedom.

I realize people are stressed, hot under the collar, angry, etc etfc, but, NO ONE is going to change ANY MINDS on this a BB!!! Be REAL.

For ANYONE to QUIT this BB (and Heidi, I KNOW you are not the ONLY one frustrated) is SILLY and IMMATURE! I ignored the last person who requested I remove ALL her posts - (sorry /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) what she had to say on this and other threads is/was entirely too important to delete because she is annoyed.

So, my advice to everyone is GET A LIFE - do NOT post PERSONAL attacks; DO not cast aspersions on someone else's intelligence because they don't come around to your view; DO read and try to understand the differences!

That is what FREEDOM is all about!

Dementia 13

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:27 AM

Personal attacks are the hobgoblin of small minds.

Carry on - I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

And if I may suggest three absolutely wonderful books -- Riddley Walker by Russell Hobin, The March of Folly and the Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman. Very different, very wonderful.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:33 AM

There have been so many intelligent, insightful, and well-thought posts on this thread. I have learned so much, thanks to some very well-read, educated posters. It's a shame that just a couple of posters want to spoil it for the rest of us.

Disagreement is an excellent way to learn and grow, but it won't happen if one's opinions are couched in rude, condescending language that persists in insulting the reader.

Heidi, don't you dare leave! The world needs grammer and spelling police!

Maybe if I right sum stuff really bad and refuse to punctueat and include sum runon sentences she'l half to come back! Let's see - tittillate? titilate? titilatte? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sandy M

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:54 AM

Especially The March of Folly. What's the old saying, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it?"

vineyridge

Oct. 3, 2001, 07:55 AM

What a vision for the world to be. Wish American pols could think that far ahead.

elizabeth

Oct. 3, 2001, 08:02 AM

Ohnowwhat is likely right. Heidi is not one to walk away.

And let me take this opportunity to say that whether somebody is rude or condescending is often in the eye of the beholder. Particularly in a situation like this, where we are communicating via written word. We do not have the luxury of seeing body language or hearing inflections that might take some of the "sting" out of the written word.

Twenty bucks says there is a contingent that thinks that those opposing Ilonae were as rude as Ilonae is said to have been. My honest view is that those who are alleged to have driven heidi off the board are people who have gotten more than their share of "slamming." It is just the nature of this sort of board.

Exhibit A: Jumphigh83 (whom I love like a mother/sister). She does not hesistate to share her controversial views, and she sometimes errs on the side of . . . more directness rather than less. In return, she periodically gets HAMMERED. So be it. That does not stop her from articulating her views. Which, in my view, is as it should be. (Good for you, jumphigh83!!)

I suspect heidi gets that, and, for that reason, I suspect she will either come back or lurk diligently. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lucassb

Oct. 3, 2001, 08:04 AM

Please don't leave. Ignore the posts that are clearly redundant or offensive - lots of us do that. Participate in the ones which are informed and productive, and keep adding to them as you usually do!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

**********
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 09:21 AM

That speech was extraordinary.

I know that Bush has never been a good speaker, but I just wish that inspirational thinking/speaking was something that could be taught. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Daphnes hair dresser

Oct. 3, 2001, 10:36 AM

I read lab books for fun!!! Ok, I'm a sick person.

Heidi, Lord knows I can use all the lessons you are willing to give in spelling and punctuation!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Weatherford

Oct. 3, 2001, 11:44 AM

Tony Blair is about as good a media magician as you can get - eloquent, good looking, and I APPRECIATE his coming to our aid in this event.

HOWEVER his (and his administration's) treatment of the FARMERS in Great Britain is BEYOND BELIEF - absolutely horrific, and don't even get me started on the ruination of agriculture in the UK that COULD have been prevented. Granted, what's 3 million animals dead?? And thousands of farmers out of business with NO recourse. He has effectively wiped out a way of in GB - certainly has wiped out GENERATIONS of irreplacable breeding in cattle, sheep, and pigs.

This is, however, a discussion for another thread.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Beans

Oct. 3, 2001, 11:48 AM

Those of you who felt obliged to make direct negative comments about me - while standing back and saying you are the open minded ones.... I guess this is an EST approach that I'll never understand. Standing up for what you believe in is o.k....as long as it's YOUR opinion. Anyone else who does the same - and disagrees with you - well that's not o.k.

The thread started with what I believe were sophomoric and critical comments about a our President at a time when it was hard to believe anyone could take that route.

BTW for Magnolia - putting a smiley face after making a slam at me was a bit childish but I'll wonder why those who make direct comments at others don't have enough strength in their own convictions to sign their own names.

It's an open BB - if someone leaves it's an option. I hope this debate isn't the center of anyone's universe.

hobson

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:06 PM

Childish, Ilona? And how would you categorize addressing someone as "witchy witchy witch"? Yelling in all caps about "snotty retorts"? I for one am not offended in the least by your posts - that kind of stuff gives me a good laugh, and I just skip over the rest.

Now, who has a comment about the Jane's article that DMK posted?

Magnolia

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:06 PM

BTW, IlonaE, I was slamming both of us! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and I like being called a Witchy Witch witch. It is kind of cute, and it is almost Halloween.
Hobson, I'm suspicious of you.... are you playing alter-egos again. You seem to pop up everytime our conservative friends do!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[This message was edited by magnolia on Oct. 03, 2001 at 03:14 PM.]

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:20 PM

but I sure wish Bush could deliver a speech like Blair.

HeyYouNags

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:29 PM

Oh, Professor Hobson, call on me! I read the Jane's article!

Also interesting reading - a couple of articles in today's Washington Post detailing efforts to kill or capture Bin Laden during the (dare I say it?) Clinton administration.

Check them out at www.washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com)

Has the Arab studies midterm exam been scheduled yet?

Maybe certain irascible posters should be treated as trolls, and ignored. I'll try it, as of now. Shunning - it's the Puritan thing to do. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Pixie Dust

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:38 PM

Well, I suppose I'm impressed by how he's handling the whole thing, though he doesn't have to do much to impress, but I'm still embarrassed to have him as a president. It's not just that I don't agree with his politics. I didn't agree with Reagan's politics either, but at least he didn't embarrass me. (Hey, I know plenty of Republicans who are embarrassed by him too.) My friends from Paris were visiting a month ago and they told me that the Europeans can't stand him (because of the Kyoto treaty). She said there was a half hour puppet show on every day before the local news that made fun of Bush (among others.) I don't even truly think he's dumb; he just sounds that way. I'm just glad that the powers that be are thinking things through, instead of just rushing over there and dropping bombs.
Betsy in MD /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magnolia

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:39 PM

I imagine it will be quite difficult to find Bin Laden. Apparently, Afghanistan is full of caves and such, as well as rugged terrain. I also understand a very severe sand storm is happening in the north (where the resistance is fighting). I have also read that winters are quite severe...
Hopefully, they will have enough technology and forces to find him. It is a lot like when they searched for Eric Rudolph in the NC mountains. Like finding a needle in a haystack. Hopefully, Bin Laden will continue to travel in an entourage, so he is more easily detectable by satellite etc. Does anyone know if he is a "survivalist" who, like Rudolph, could survive in the wilds by himself?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

SLW

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
HOWEVER his (and his administration's) treatment of the FARMERS in Great Britain is BEYOND BELIEF - absolutely horrific, and don't even get me started on the ruination of agriculture in the UK that COULD have been prevented. Granted, what's 3 million animals dead?? And thousands of farmers out of business with NO recourse. He has effectively wiped out a way of in GB - certainly has wiped out GENERATIONS of irreplacable breeding in cattle, sheep, and pigs.

This is, however, a discussion for another thread.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>>.

I know, I know!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It took a LOT for me to "atta boy" him after the events of last year, F&M and push to stop hunting. He does PR very well....

SLW

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 12:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
Like finding a needle in a haystack.
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard a defense department spokesperson say this morning that it was more like "finding a needle in a football field." Afghanistan is roughly double the size of California and Bin Laden has 15 years of experience in getting to know it. We're going to need lots of luck, good intelligence, and a turncoat or two.

hobson

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:00 PM

OK, HeyYouNags - you get the first one: what in the world do you think a "Psyops" operation against this particular group of terrorists will look like?

Speaking of speeches, did you all see Bush doing the airport press conference? I really debated over posting about it, but I think anyone, republican or otherwise who has a sense of humor will not have a problem. Mr Hobson and I both stared at each other in bewilderment as the president announced that "By Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will be taking off from Reagan National Airport."

Now, don't know about you guys, but we laughed ourselves silly thinking up newspaper headlines for when the ticket counters take off. Our favorites were:
"Ticket Counters Airborne, Terrorists Can't Check In"
"Ticket Counters Take Off Today--Rest of Airport Lifts Off Saturday to Remove Itself to Safer Location"

fernie fox

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:01 PM

Please don't even put them in the same catagory.Blair has sold UK.down the river.I dont think any of the wars over the past 75 years have done as much damage to the rural way of life as he has.In a few short years,he and his AR buddies have,one way or another completely ruined the country way of life that I was so proud of when I first came stateside in 1982.My family and friends are reeling at his total lack of compasion for rural areas and people.
Yes, he is a MEDIA WIZARD,he knows how to WOW the press,and it seems the American people.

Yes.he can run his mouth about the fight against terrorism,worldwide.Lets hope he will include cleaning up the awfulness in his own back yard.
He can be a very big MAN in the new world order,with the US behind him.
I'm sorry but I find him quite repulsive,the tragic events here, have given him a chance to ride on Bush's shirt tails for a while and in doing so "puff his little chest up and be OH so important".

In all honesty I was'nt too impressed with Mr.Bush to begin with.As each day goes by I am finding my respect for him is greatly increased.
Mr.Bush's speeches just get better,I think that he will bring those that have terrorized the world to justice But it will take time and diplomacy to do the job properly.
The British as always will support him to the best of our ability.But you can bet your life that Tone &Cherry wont miss out on a single photo op.

God Bless America.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

Snowbird

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:02 PM

Is it possible to be American and believe in freedom of speech for EVERYONE? even the opposition?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Well, I suppose I'm impressed by how he's handling the whole thing, though he doesn't have to do much to impress<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Translation Please! I don't know what this means

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>, but I'm still embarrassed to have him as a president. It's not just that I don't agree with his politics. I didn't agree with Reagan's politics either, but at least he didn't embarrass me. (Hey, I know plenty of Republicans who are embarrassed by him too.) My friends from Paris were visiting a month ago and they told me that the Europeans can't stand him (because of the Kyoto treaty).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you be embarrassed if he's doing a good job? Is it just that your disappointed because he is not as stupid as you estimated because he has not been merchandised like a package of cookies?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> She said there was a half hour puppet show on every day before the local news that made fun of Bush (among others.) I don't even truly think he's dumb; he just sounds that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK! he is not a great orator, he is not good at presentation, he hasn't hired a bunch of Hollywood moguls to teach him what a President is supposed to sound like and look like, he just is our President. A real person in a blue suit with a business like approach to being President. Isn't it wonderful that America has always had the privilege of laughing at itself, and we don't drop bombs on people for making jokes. Haven't you watched Saturday Night Live? They make jokes about everyone too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'm just glad that the powers that be are thinking things through, instead of just rushing over there and dropping bombs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, just why do you suppose that is? Could it be because the President has not authorized them to do it? Could it be that these intelligent people respect him not only as President but as a leader?
Maybe they know something you don't know.

Now, if you want to discuss embarrassment, I was embarrassed by the use the last President had for Cuban Cigars. I was embarrased by his behavior having some little girl under the table licking his personal parts while he was discussing important life and death business of the country. I was embarrased by the total lack of maturity when the last White House Staff vandalized all the equipment in the White House by removing keys from the keyboards. And, the list of important things that embarrassed me is so long that I don't time to type them in for you.

I survived and so will you!

He was our President for better or worse and as such deserved to be respected even when they swiped all that stuff from the White House as they left. Hopefully, since they were caught it has all been returned.

OH! Ilona, be forgiving "they know not what they say". It's sort of like when you meet a deaf man, you can't get mad at him because he doesn't hear you. I've tried to remember back to my rebel days and I am sure I was once equally unhearing aand confrontational, it just comes with the territory.

I was thinking that being a young Republican in the days of FDR was probably my personal rebellion against the establishment. Of course the difference is that "I WAS RIGHT". HA! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 03, 2001 at 04:14 PM.]

Erin

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:10 PM

Here we go again with oral sex... everyone cover your eyes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Snowbird

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:16 PM

I didn't whine about all that "terra"ist stuff and the other mispronunciations that filled pages so give me a little slack please. You call it oral sex, I was talking about his method for discussing matters of state.

I understand he just needed some stress relief.

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:17 PM

I'm relieved that the government is taking a measured, intelligent, "sit up and wait" approach to the Bin Laden/Taliban problem. I think that Bush is getting a lot of good advice from the experienced members of his cabinet and national security team (apparently Rumsfeld quickly shut down the irresponsible rhetoric that was being tossed to and fro by an undersecretary at the Pentagon).

I'm satisfied, at least, that Bush has enough intelligence to listen to what his advisors are telling him to do. As I sat in a restaurant in Crystal City watching the Pentagon burn, I was initially terrified that this would lead to a "fools rush in" scenario. Thank heaven that cooler heads have prevailed thus far.

hobson

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:18 PM

Gee whiz, Snowbird, there are children reading this board! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

(Monica was a grown adult at the time, btw...let's not try to frighten the young'uns too much!)

Inverness

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:22 PM

Did someone mention choral sects? I love listening to choral sects!

Snowbird

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:22 PM

I thought the point was that they were all grown up and resented my speaking because I was old. I didn't know there was anyone on this "thread" that admitted to being a child or thought they were a child.

Pixie Dust

Oct. 3, 2001, 01:26 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snowbird:
Is it possible to be American and believe in freedom of speech for EVERYONE? even the opposition?

OH yes, I beleive in freedom of speech for everybody.

Translation Please! I don't know what this means

It means that the media in general has made him out to be such a dufus (because of the way he talks) that all he has to do his "not mess up" and everyone thinks he did a great job.

Why would you be embarrassed if he's doing a good job? Is it just that your disappointed because he is not as stupid as you estimated because he has not been merchandised like a package of cookies?

I'm embarrassed because he talks kind of like a yahoo. Hey, it's my problem not yours.

And, just why do you suppose that is? Could it be because the President has not authorized them to do it? Could it be that these intelligent people respect him not only as President but as a leader?
Maybe they know something you don't know.

I guess you misunderstood me. When I said "the powers that be" I was including Bush as one of those powers. I was complimenting him and his advisors on doing the right thing (in my opinion).

Now, if you want to discuss embarrassment, I was embarrassed by the use the last President had for Cuban Cigars. I was embarrased by his behavior having some little girl under the table licking his personal parts while he was discussing

Really? Now that didn't embarrass me at all, though I did feel sorry for his daughter. What a dumb mistake.

OH! Ilona, be forgiving "they know not what they say". It's sort of like when you meet a deaf man, you can't get mad at him because he doesn't hear you. I've tried to remember back to my rebel days and I am sure I was once equally unhearing aand confrontational, it just comes with the territory.

I was thinking that being a young Republican in the days of FDR was probably my personal rebellion against the establishment. Of course the difference is that "I WAS RIGHT". HA! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My opinions have seemed to get you all fired up. It's just my opinion and the way I feel. Not something that can be argued. Like I said before, I have plenty of Republican friends who find his lack of oratory skills to be embarrassing too. I still think he's doing a good job (on this particular issue) no matter how hostile you are to me.
Betsy (in MD)