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dudleyc
May. 16, 2012, 06:24 AM
Horse for sale in 60k - 80k range. Confirmed PSG gelding, early teens, very very safe. Sells with complete vet records.

Horse had problems with vetting. Clean xrays but positive flexions on both hocks and both stiffles. Horse had joint injections and now 2 weeks latter flexes clean. (2 years prior, horse had Right stiffle and both front cannon joints injected - no other history of sports medicine issues). Horse has had no routine maintenance

Vet recommends evaluations every 6 months, possible injections every 6 months and monthly polyglycan or legend injections. To be fair, vet thinks this is a horse that is sounder than expected.

So now that the horse will need some maintenance, how much should the asking price change?

GoForAGallop
May. 16, 2012, 08:04 AM
For a schoolmaster gelding who is otherwise sound with excellent x-rays, but who needs a little (what most people would consider absolutely normal) maintenance?

I don't think it would change very much at all, sorry.

Perfect Pony
May. 16, 2012, 09:38 AM
I only know of two people that have bought confirmed FEI level horses, both "passed" vettings with minor maintenance findings like this one. One GP horse imported but bought here in the states, one bought in Germany. Both were around 50k and almost immediately many more issues came out, and neck arthritis in conjunction to all the other wear and tear did them in not long after they were bought.

I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.

Velvet
May. 16, 2012, 09:41 AM
Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens.

In their early teens? They should be in their prime! That's why they're for sale.

fairtheewell
May. 16, 2012, 10:03 AM
Maybe get a second opinion...or third, and get a really good insurance company. These prices always floor me, but it is all relative. Make sure that an insurance company will insure this horse fully for whatever the final price is.

opel
May. 16, 2012, 11:27 AM
Confirmed PSG horse, safe and a good dressage mover (I'm assuming). Here you are paying for training. There is nothing more valuable than the lessons a good schoolmaster can give you. The "issues" sound like normal maintenance to me. All-in-all, I can't figure out why some people would dismiss the years of training it took to get a nice horse to this level and to solidify the training. Yes, the horse "could" go lame or have a million other things go wrong. This is true of all horses, all ages. If a person can't afford to lose ANY horse they buy...then purchase should be questioned.
I bought an expensive schoolmaster who had a club foot. She was working well at her level with no problems, so I took the risk. She never had problems with that foot...though she "failed" the pre-purchase. She did, to my extreme grief, die of colic 3 years later. I still think she was a good purchase and I bless the day I bought her. That horse taught me so very, very much....lessons no human instructor would ever be able to articulate, explain or even see. So many lessons of dressage are "secrets" between the horse and rider. So, yes. Most schoolmasters have an issue or two. No reason to pass them by if the issues are reasonable.

easyrider
May. 16, 2012, 11:27 AM
Most buyers are prepared for routine maintenance on a horse of that age (and younger). It's a little hard to answer your question, because the 60K-80K range is a pretty big range (I understand why you want to present it that way, but it's still a pretty big range).

I'd say that more reasonable pricing is closer to the low end...but pricing will also depend on age, a show record, temperament, size and attractiveness, in addition to how long the horse has been on the market, and how exposed. Reducing the price usually signals the desire for a "quick sale" or that something came up in a PPE (as it did).

As an alternative, if you want to lower the price, you could simply add the word "negotiable," which is less of a red flag or a "Welcome Home" sign to bargain hunters than reducing the price outright.

joiedevie99
May. 16, 2012, 11:31 AM
Most horses of that age and training level need some maintenance. The unknown in this case is how long the maintenance will work for.

I generally would not expect the price to drop, but I would expect that the owners would be a bit more negotiable than they otherwise were.

AZ TD
May. 16, 2012, 12:14 PM
Front cannon bones injected? Never heard of that, why?
AZ TD

dudleyc
May. 16, 2012, 01:10 PM
To be clear I am the owner/seller. I am looking for a good home and will sell him with right of first refusal.

The add presently advertises "no maintenance". I need to delete that or change it.

Would that lower the asking price? If so by 10k? 15k?

TIA

fairtheewell
May. 16, 2012, 01:15 PM
That makes sense now....Just delete that part. A buyer will have the horse vetted and you can take it from there. It comes down to what you can live with and what a buyer is willing to pay and what kind of home they can provide for him. Good luck! I bet he's a really great horse!

NOMIOMI1
May. 16, 2012, 01:47 PM
Well in my experience the horses price did not change as the horse was able to perform the job required and that was not likely to change per this vet exam.

I had a horse fail one vet exam and then pass the second and in between we did not negotiate her price even though the first one was so negative.

Further examination showed the horse was fine... I wouldn't have changed her price for maintanance either.

If the horse can perform and compete currently and that is not likely to immediately change I dont see any reason why a price should change.

flyracing
May. 16, 2012, 02:59 PM
Today, hocks are standard maintnance for a show horse with lots of mileage. While there are some horses that don't need them they are the exception not the rule. Therefore, hock injections that allow the horse to pass flexions (that is impressive regardless) does not change the price. You can tell the potential buyers when he was last injected and they can go from there. If the xrays are clean and the horse is competing without difficulty, then that is what makes the price. That said, stifle injections will scare some people a bit more. If I were you I would be getting the most experienced farrier working on him as possible!

Good luck :)

PS, I think you were meaning coffin bone injections.

Blume Farm
May. 16, 2012, 03:15 PM
I only know of two people that have bought confirmed FEI level horses, both "passed" vettings with minor maintenance findings like this one. One GP horse imported but bought here in the states, one bought in Germany. Both were around 50k and almost immediately many more issues came out, and neck arthritis in conjunction to all the other wear and tear did them in not long after they were bought.

I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.

An n=2 does not make for real evidence that just because a horse is found to need minor maintenance that they will end up with neck arthritis. There are thousands of horses that need routine hock/stifle injections and perform well into their late teens-early twenties. This would not be a factor for me to negotiate price.

Also, over the last years I think our mindset has changed with how we manage our sport horses. Before it was 1)problem, then 2) try to fix the problem. Now it is more about preventative maintenance to hopefully never cross the bridge of a major problem. Therefore, I think most folks see hock injections, adequan, legend, pentosan, etc. as routine these days...especially for a PSG horse. In our barn we have 5 FEI level and 4 2nd-4th level horses that have had "routine maintenance" since the beginning of their riding careers. Knock on wood all have been sound, and at least half of those horses are well into their teens.

I too think what you are paying for is training and competitive ability of the horse. If it is a sane AA ready horse and can be competitive at shows (score at least mid-60s) that is where the real value is. Early teens is what I would expect the age of most horses to be if I was looking for a PSG or above mount.

Good luck with getting him placed in the right home!!

Melyni
May. 16, 2012, 03:36 PM
just add the word negotiable to the price. and delete the no maintenance.
You could try about 10k lower but personally I wouldn't.

The negotiable should be enough.

Good Luck
MW

Perfect Pony
May. 17, 2012, 12:18 AM
An n=2 does not make for real evidence that just because a horse is found to need minor maintenance that they will end up with neck arthritis. There are thousands of horses that need routine hock/stifle injections and perform well into their late teens-early twenties. This would not be a factor for me to negotiate price.


These 2 are only the two in my immediate barn. I have found recently that a horse that has gone FEI that is in their teens is more often than not very close to the end of their career. I cannot even think of a single one that I think would be sound enough to warrant a price tag like that. Unless of course you truly have so much money that 60-80k is pocket change.

I always see these ads for 15 year old horses for these prices and cannot believe it, since the person that buys a horse at that age is probably going to have to pay for it's retirement sooner than later. But I don't have that kind of money lying around burning a hole in my pocket, some people do!

chisamba
May. 17, 2012, 11:57 AM
When you say Cannon joints, do you mean at the knee or at the fetlock? I too find this terminology confusing.

While most people do expect to do a bit of maintenance, i would be really leery of a horse that has had trouble in the hocks, stifles and knees or fetlocks ( whichever it is).

at that price range i would expect to look a little further and find a sounder horse with similar training. ( of course if this horse is remarkably skilled at its training level, then it might outweigh the negatives).

I too expect a horse in the young teens to be still in the prime of its life, both in soundness and in mind and build.

Justice~for~Horses
May. 17, 2012, 12:31 PM
When you say Cannon joints, do you mean at the knee or at the fetlock? I too find this terminology confusing.

While most people do expect to do a bit of maintenance, i would be really leery of a horse that has had trouble in the hocks, stifles and knees or fetlocks ( whichever it is).

at that price range i would expect to look a little further and find a sounder horse with similar training. ( of course if this horse is remarkably skilled at its training level, then it might outweigh the negatives).

I too expect a horse in the young teens to be still in the prime of its life, both in soundness and in mind and build.

When is the last time you had flexions and xrays done on your horses, Chisamba? Did they all flex negative? How about the rest of you?

horsey1cr
May. 17, 2012, 01:44 PM
I have had and still have several horses in my barn that are showing well into their 20's. We retired one last year at 24 but he's still gives lessons to a couple of amateurs. All of the older ones are requiring maintenance of some sort -although we don't just inject the younger ones prolifically at this point.

A 'teen' is still in their prime and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one that has had some maintenance. The only thing I won't touch is a old suspensory injury - but that's jmo. It seems every year after the age of 12 the value of the horse goes down.

An amateur friendly PSG - I-1 horse in his teens is still super valuable since the person is basically buying their 'education' or ability to go straight in and show FEI. The better the horse's recorded scores, etc., the higher the price. An older schoolmaster scoring in the 70's for example will fetch $60 - $100K for sure. A good horse will always sell. They are hard to come by.

CHT
May. 17, 2012, 01:52 PM
How badly did horse flex? Does the horse show any secondary lameness issues such as back soreness?

Stifles would worry me as a buyer more than the hocks, but at the same time it is hard to just flex the stifles, so is the vet sure the stifles were positive, or is it that the hocks/stifles were flexed at the same time, and one of the two (or both) showed positive flexions?

But...if someone vetted the horse now, it would pass right? I guess as a buyer, I would appreciate your honesty. At the same time I would want to know that the injections do last for more than a couple weeks. If the horse stays happy/sound, with no secondary soreness, I would not expect the price to be dropped based on this.

(when shopping in the low 4 figures, if I find a horse needs maintenance, we usually negotiate down by the cost of the maintenance for 2 years...but this seems like such a small amount compared to your asking amout, so seems petty/pointless)

dudleyc
May. 17, 2012, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE=CHT;6321647]How badly did horse flex? Does the horse show any secondary lameness issues such as back soreness? The horse flexed 2 -3. The horse then had joint injections and 2 weeks after the injections flexed negative


Stifles would worry me as a buyer more than the hocks, but at the same time it is hard to just flex the stifles, so is the vet sure the stifles were positive, or is it that the hocks/stifles were flexed at the same time, and one of the two (or both) showed positive flexions?

Interesting, 2 years ago, I took my horses to Tufts. This horse flexed positive in what they thought was R stiffle, they then blocked the stiffle and the horse was sound. This time there were no blocks, but when he flexed the say RIGHT stiffle, he would be on the LEFT side of the horse flexing the joint up and lateral


But...if someone vetted the horse now, it would pass right? I guess as a buyer, I would appreciate your honesty. At the same time I would want to know that the injections do last for more than a couple weeks. If the horse stays happy/sound, with no secondary soreness, I would not expect the price to be dropped based on this.

Yes he would pass now. And his Xrays were good. I have his complete vet record and relatively speaking he is cleaner than the vets anticipate for a PSG horse in there early teens

hluing
May. 18, 2012, 11:36 AM
Perfect Pony...while I agree it would terrify me to spend that much on a horse. I bought my FEI schoolmaster at age 15 with no PPE (sellers requirment). He had a few suspensory issues over the years...very minimal maintance needs...and refuses to retire at 22!

opel
May. 18, 2012, 11:50 AM
When is the last time you had flexions and xrays done on your horses, Chisamba? Did they all flex negative? How about the rest of you?

My thoughts, exactly. I don't know how many times I've seen people riding around on their "100% sound, needs no maintenance" horse......and observed an obvious gait irregularity. There are very, very few horses who can do FEI level work....real FEI level work....with power, bounce, crossing and expression....who don't need a little help to keep their well-used bodies and joints comfortable. Now, 1/2-assed dressage with little piddly staccato gaits isn't as wearing and the horses probably last longer.
I have been seriously bouncing this around in my head for the last year or so. Wondering when dressage, yes even well-ridden and sympathetic dressage, becomes unfair for the horse. We ask so much of them and their bodies do show the wear and tear. I do think really good riders can "ride the horse to soundness" to some degree and really ineffective riders don't get the horse engaged enough to really work. It's the majority of riders who may push the horse enough to do pretty good dressage but don't have the horse perfect enough in body to avoid injury...... This thought goes nowhere because I have no answer other than to have my horse flexed every 3-6 months and have any abiding issues treated. She deserves that, as she works hard. All FEI horses deserve that.

Jeito
May. 18, 2012, 11:50 AM
I would buy him if I could, and I think your price is reasonable. PPE's aren't "pass-fail," and it's unrealistic to expect a horse at that level and age not to need maintenance. Fwiw, when I was looking a few years ago and passed up a teen-age "schoolmaster," it wasn't the up-front cost (or the cost of maintenance) that gave me pause, but the prospect of dealing with a horse I might not be able to ride in a few years (because I already had one retiree - otherwise I would have done it).

opel
May. 18, 2012, 11:57 AM
Yep. I'd buy the horse too. I think injections every 1-2 years is actually very little maintenance for an FEI horse. I would not lower the price.

CHT
May. 18, 2012, 01:26 PM
I think there are many sellers who would have just done the injections to create a horse that passed and not said a word about it.

And to be honest, I would be suprised if someone was shocked/upset or in any way turned off by a PSG horse who needs some fairly standard sounding help.

TouchstoneAcres
May. 18, 2012, 01:53 PM
I know of a PSG mare, 17 year old Lipizzan, whom I beieve is sound, for $12,000. Why pay 50k? Lips live a long time and are known for soundness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHTSdLRfQ90&feature=player_embedded
SEYCHELLINA
Sire: SIGALVY SAGANA II S012-28
Dam: ANGELINA M0424-84
Breed: LIPPZZAN
Breeder: SUE LOCKE

CHT
May. 18, 2012, 02:36 PM
One class at PSG does not a PSG horse make.

Looked up the scores for Seychellina, and she lacks recent scores, only has one score for PSG, and hasn't exactly got the best track record score wise (40s and 50s and 4rth?). Even the video you posted is old.

Not that we know what the OP's horse has done, but I would not value a confirmed consistent PSG horse based on comparing to the mare shown in that video.

NotGrandPrixYet
May. 18, 2012, 04:36 PM
The mare in the video is not a good mover. She has high knee action, her shoulders are not as free as they should be, and she is sitting not very much at all. She barely moves under herself at the trot. This is not a PSG horse.

NorCalDressage
May. 18, 2012, 06:57 PM
One class at PSG does not a PSG horse make.

Looked up the scores for Seychellina, and she lacks recent scores, only has one score for PSG, and hasn't exactly got the best track record score wise (40s and 50s and 4rth?). Even the video you posted is old.

Not that we know what the OP's horse has done, but I would not value a confirmed consistent PSG horse based on comparing to the mare shown in that video.

Ditto that -

Mike Pineo - um yeah.

dudleyc
May. 20, 2012, 06:40 PM
I think there are many sellers who would have just done the injections to create a horse that passed and not said a word about it.

And to be honest, I would be suprised if someone was shocked/upset or in any way turned off by a PSG horse who needs some fairly standard sounding help.

Thanks for that. I am an amateur and I really love this horse, but I don't have the time for him and he is too young and talented to retire and I am not wealthy. So....my biggest objective is to find him a loving home where he can be useful.

it would be very easy to not disclose the vet reports and a new vet coming in to do a PPE would have no clues. Esp. as the xrays are clean.

Perfect Pony
May. 20, 2012, 08:15 PM
I don't have the time for him and he is too young and talented to retire and I am not wealthy. So....my biggest objective is to find him a loving home where he can be useful.

As evidenced by the 60 to 80 Thousand dollar price tag. Sorry, couldn't help myself....

goeslikestink
May. 20, 2012, 08:20 PM
Horse for sale in 60k - 80k range. Confirmed PSG gelding, early teens, very very safe. Sells with complete vet records.

Horse had problems with vetting. Clean xrays but positive flexions on both hocks and both stiffles. Horse had joint injections and now 2 weeks latter flexes clean. (2 years prior, horse had Right stiffle and both front cannon joints injected - no other history of sports medicine issues). Horse has had no routine maintenance

Vet recommends evaluations every 6 months, possible injections every 6 months and monthly polyglycan or legend injections. To be fair, vet thinks this is a horse that is sounder than expected.

So now that the horse will need some maintenance, how much should the asking price change?

are you as a good rider as the horse your intending buying with questions like you have asked on other threads i think not


so it would be a waste of time buying a horse that has far more knowledge than you do and one that no doubt you would be over horsed with

people like yourselves often think if i buy a horse like this i can win xyz
but unfortunately you a---- have to keep that horse as a competition horse and what hes/she acustomed to- and ride it over bigger tracks or bigger competitions of which if one isnt and doesnt understand the basics then one isnt going to get far and for the horse is question it would be an ill match and the horse would be later deemed as a git when in truth ---------- hes a competition horse with a novice on his back that hasnt a clue

so horse is sold of as cheap ------- beleive e i know as i re- school and re trina horses all my life and i have common little things to really expensive joblets and got them all back to where they should be in decents homes and doing the jobs that they were intented for

so price doesnt come in to really its down to how much knowledge you have to offered a horse a home at the level you are at - and or a horse that has the knowledge to take you a little farther then you was with his own knowledge

and any horse that has problems with his flexions is a horse that going to have health problems all his life a horse that has hock injections says it all here in uk we dont do hock injection willy nilly

they only done on medical grounds - and thats says a lot so a horse thats selling for that kind of money------ isnt worth it as it will be off work more than its in work - and agin you will get frustrated not being able to ride and go forwards as the hrose works back to front then his engine is in his rear for jumping he need its for lift off, for dressage he needs to show his power in his movements from back to to front to elevate himself .flex and extent
for racing he needs that engine to frust that power forward to come somewhere for driving he needs it to help pull forwards

so hocks and legs are very important with out them he cant do the things we as humans want him to do

dudleyc
May. 20, 2012, 08:28 PM
are you as a good rider as the horse your intending buying with questions like you have asked on other threads i think not


so it would be a waste of time buying a horse that has far more knowledge than you do and one that no doubt you would be over horsed with

people like yourselves often think if i buy a horse like this i can win xyz
but unfortunately you a---- have to keep that horse as a competition horse and what hes/she acustomed to- and ride it over bigger tracks or bigger competitions of which if one isnt and doesnt understand the basics then one isnt going to get far and for the horse is question it would be an ill match and the horse would be later deemed as a git when in truth ---------- hes a competition horse with a novice on his back that hasnt a clue

so horse is sold of as cheap ------- beleive e i know as i re- school and re trina horses all my life and i have common little things to really expensive joblets and got them all back to where they should be in decents homes and doing the jobs that they were intented for

so price doesnt come in to really its down to how much knowledge you have to offered a horse a home at the level you are at - and or a horse that has the knowledge to take you a little farther then you was with his own knowledge

and any horse that has problems with his flexions is a horse that going to have health problems all his life a horse that has hock injections says it all here in uk we dont do hock injection willy nilly

they only done on medical grounds - and thats says a lot so a horse thats selling for that kind of money------ isnt worth it as it will be off work more than its in work - and agin you will get frustrated not being able to ride and go forwards as the hrose works back to front then his engine is in his rear for jumping he need its for lift off, for dressage he needs to show his power in his movements from back to to front to elevate himself .flex and extent
for racing he needs that engine to frust that power forward to come somewhere for driving he needs it to help pull forwards

so hocks and legs are very important with out them he cant do the things we as humans want him to do

????

goeslikestink
May. 20, 2012, 08:32 PM
oh you own him and hes got problems

then yo need to find him a home and drop your price ----as hes high maintenance for the average joe bloggs

her he wouldnt sell for much at all 1200 quid with those problems

CHT
May. 20, 2012, 09:13 PM
I agree with the ???

dressurpferd01
May. 20, 2012, 10:11 PM
oh you own him and hes got problems

then yo need to find him a home and drop your price ----as hes high maintenance for the average joe bloggs

her he wouldnt sell for much at all 1200 quid with those problems

Um...occasional injections =/= high maintenance. I don't believe for one second that you've ever ridden, let alone retrained any kind of upper level horse.

fairtheewell
May. 20, 2012, 10:35 PM
Hahaha

Petstorejunkie
May. 20, 2012, 10:39 PM
confirmed how? regional level? CDI? what?
most horses I'm seeing from 11-13yrs WITH declared maintenance, and recognized scores (but not a record as a young rider winner, etc) are going nationally around $35-40k

dudleyc
May. 21, 2012, 06:26 AM
confirmed how? regional level? CDI? what?
most horses I'm seeing from 11-13yrs WITH declared maintenance, and recognized scores (but not a record as a young rider winner, etc) are going nationally around $35-40k

Thats helpful. I set the price with advice from 2 BNT - although BNT's that do NOT SELL horses. I think his initial asking price was too high.

He is a horse that is safe, 3 very good gaits and can do all of the movements well and easily, but he is a regional horse - a very good schoolmaster. I have already turned away inquiries from people looking for something National / CDI or to go on to the GP.

Justice~for~Horses
May. 21, 2012, 09:23 AM
confirmed how? regional level? CDI? what?
most horses I'm seeing from 11-13yrs WITH declared maintenance, and recognized scores (but not a record as a young rider winner, etc) are going nationally around $35-40k
I totally disagree. Show me some sale ads (PM me if you wish) of competent PSG horses between 11-13 with current show records that are selling for 40k. I would be more than interested in buying one. I see horses 17 years old selling for 60k and more. I don't even think you can get a decent 3rd level horse for 40k. Actually, 40k doesn't buy much quality.

suzy
May. 21, 2012, 10:06 AM
I totally disagree. Show me some sale ads (PM me if you wish) of competent PSG horses between 11-13 with current show records that are selling for 40k. I would be more than interested in buying one. I see horses 17 years old selling for 60k and more. I don't even think you can get a decent 3rd level horse for 40k. Actually, 40k doesn't buy much quality.

Ditto. And, trust me, I have looked for the 40K PSG horse. They are either incorrect in their training, have serious soundness issues, or both.

Dudley, I think I know your horse, and I think he is very fairly priced for his training and quality. The fact that he's amateur friendly adds to his value considerably. I would leave the price alone and just explain what you have explained on this board. It will help if you are willing to make your vet records available to the potential buyer. If I could call Tufts (or whoever) and speak directly with them, it would make a difference to my purchasing decision. Most riders shopping for a horse like yours are either experienced or they have a trainer helping to guide their purchase. They know they aren't going to find the perfect horse in this price range, so it's a matter of whether the horse suits the rider and if they are comfortable with doing the necessary maintenance.

Goeslikestink…step away from the crack cocaine. ;)

NOMIOMI1
May. 21, 2012, 10:32 AM
I know of a couple of 30-40ks that have scores barely at 1st level. If this horse is confirmed then the price range is very much on target.

Remember people will always offer to have a friend fix your car as well... The deals ARE there but quality plus reputable and honest usually is fair market value at least and I think that is exactly where dudley is at.

MysticOakRanch
May. 21, 2012, 12:04 PM
Without seeing video, trying the horse, knowing more details (including age, show record, size, breeding, etc), it is hard to really assess a reasonable price. But economy is starting to pick up, horse prices are getting a bit better. Two years ago, I saw some buyers picking up real deals on ammie-friendly teenage PSG horses that needed maintenance (under $30k!). More recently, those prices are higher - more in the $35k to $70k range, depending on age, quality, ease of riding, etc. There is a huge difference in price between buying a 13 year old horse and an 18 year old horse. There is also a huge difference in price between a horse that you can eke out your silver scores on (scores 58 to 62%) versus a horse that is scoring mid to high 60s, and a horse who is competitive at larger shows.

I don't consider hock injections to be anything more then reasonable maintanence for ANY horse that is over 10-12 years of age and showing 4th level or above (aka at a level that really requires collection).

One point that Stink makes that is spot-on (not necessarily an issue with OP, but for anyone considering buying such a horse) - you WILL need a trainer if you are buying a schoolmaster to learn and move up. Any rider can quickly bring a horse down to their riding level;) OP - I think you pick a price that you are comfortable with, and if you get no nibbles in 60 days, lower the price. Also include "reasonable offers considered" in the ad wording.

chisamba
May. 21, 2012, 12:27 PM
When is the last time you had flexions and xrays done on your horses, Chisamba? Did they all flex negative? How about the rest of you?

My twenty one year old mare flexed completely sound at her last evaluation, as i was showing fourth level and training PSG. SHe had never had injections in any joint whatsoever.

However I view this comment is simply being a nasty personal dig and unnecessary to the conversation, because I was discussing from the perspective of a buyer. If i take a client to look at a horse, and it has to have injections both front and back to maintain soundness, i would try very hard to find one who did not require this.

A person can ask any amount of money for a horse. If you are lucky you will find the right buyer who has that much money, and wants your horse.

If a horse flexes unsound, and there is no visible reason in the x rays for that unsoundness, then I start to suspect HSD, and would chose, at that price range, to run ultrasound diagnostics.

The OP asked for an opinion on the price of the horse, and I gave my opinion as the the value. This has nothing to do with my opinion regarding the care and maintenance of the horse, which appears to be of high quality.

suzy
May. 21, 2012, 03:06 PM
I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.

I think the money is only "thrown away" if the buyer doesn't have a clear plan and a good trainer to help them implement it. If a person can afford this horse and has the goal of becoming really proficient at PSG level (maybe higher), than they can view this as an "educational expense." IMO, money spent on education is only wasted if the person doesn't take full advantage of the opportunity. In this case, that means having a competent trainer to guide you.

Typically, these horses are for sale in their teens because the rider has gained the needed experience to bring along a younger horse and should not be interpreted as there being something wrong with the horse.

Whitfield Farm Hanoverians
May. 21, 2012, 03:14 PM
Friend just turned down $90K on a horse doing solid 4th from someone who knows horse will not vet but is working very soundly on minimal maintainence.
If your horse is a good mover, not even world beater, just decent, I'd think he'd be priced in the $100K range for a good PSG horse. Just my experience.

SaddleFitterVA
May. 21, 2012, 04:33 PM
I wish I could afford a PSG horse! I bet it would make my struggles with flying changes a tiny bit easier than on my "owned since she was a yearling" 8 yr WB. I bet I could still mess them up though!:lol: I eventually will master it, I get good changes in lessons, tense up and get them late in shows...then get all tense at home and continue to work myself into a tizzy on ruining my horse...then I remember, I'm an amateur and am not looking to sell her anytime soon, so she's mine to ruin.

As for any horse endeavor (educational or otherwise), it is all "throwing money away".

Don't go into debt for horses and don't spend so much as to put the family finances on shaky ground, are my only personal rules. I suspect that $$ figure is different for most.

Marshfield
May. 21, 2012, 04:45 PM
The level of maintenance described is on par with what I think of as typical for a horse of that description. I'd say the price might be closer to the 60k end of the range but especially for New England, I think your price is about right.

Petstorejunkie
May. 21, 2012, 06:58 PM
They are either incorrect in their training, have serious soundness issues, or both.

That, I will attest to... but I'm picky when it comes to correct training.
I've been searching lately for both
1. 2-4yr old prospects
2. middle aged 4th/PSG horses
and out of ALL of Florida... I've found 3 worth spending some time looking at.

Just on the first page of dressage daily filtered 30-50k there are 5 PSG level or higher horses listed, some of which boasting scores at PSG above 70%

MelantheLLC
May. 21, 2012, 07:19 PM
When you go and look at/vet a PSG schoolmaster in the 30-50k range, you will find out why they aren't in the 60-100k range.

There is always a reason. Always. It will be apparent when you get there. If not then, when you vet.

From my experience over the past four years looking and buying, OP, I would say that the lower end of your range is a likely sale, but you don't need to go lower unless you want to (faster sale, just the right buyer, etc.) I saw YR PSG schoolmaster horses priced higher--90k--at big sale barns, so you can figure the seller's commission was added in there. I felt they were overpriced and considered making an offer on one of them but decided on another horse.

In dressage warmbloods, starting from the base price of whatever innate talent a horse has, I figure 20k a level (showing) from 2nd up, in a reasonably talented horse of suitable age and soundness. That's calculated from shopping experience, not from my personal opinion. It seemed to be about the way pricing went.

Donella
May. 22, 2012, 05:11 AM
My thoughts, exactly. I don't know how many times I've seen people riding around on their "100% sound, needs no maintenance" horse......and observed an obvious gait irregularity. There are very, very few horses who can do FEI level work....real FEI level work....with power, bounce, crossing and expression....who don't need a little help to keep their well-used bodies and joints comfortable

THIS 1000 times over!!! When I read "no maintenance required" on a teenaged FEI horse that raises a red flag for me for the above mentioned reasons.

My totally sound and healthy four year olds are on an Adequan routine , get fish oil, MSM , Glucos supplements ect and are shod to give them maximal support. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

Perfect Pony
May. 22, 2012, 09:58 AM
As for any horse endeavor (educational or otherwise), it is all "throwing money away".

Don't go into debt for horses and don't spend so much as to put the family finances on shaky ground, are my only personal rules. I suspect that $$ figure is different for most.

That was just the point I was trying to make. I wasn't being snarky, maybe sarcastic. Every person I know, whether spending 10k or 100k on a teenage horse was just throwing money on a burning pile, and the vet bills made the horse more expensive to keep than most. I would need millions in the bank to feel comfortable throwing 80k away.

fairtheewell
May. 22, 2012, 11:08 AM
It is probably just me, but it occurs to me that to expect horses to breakdown due to their training to become "real" FEI horses...ahem...points to possibly questionable training. Do the horses at SRS routinely breakdown as teenagers or is that just considered a "passaaaaay" training system? Something seems wrong with that picture.

suzy
May. 22, 2012, 12:56 PM
Fairthewell, it isn't about the horse breaking down but about our being realistic and understanding that horses are just like humans as they age--they get a bit stiff and arthritic. And, it varies from one individual to the next as to the degree. We treat ourselves with joint supplements and injections, so why not our horses. Undoubtedly some horses break down due to poor training practices, but I think far more fall into the category of normal aging.

MysticOakRanch
May. 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
Fairthewell, the other thing you need to realize is that bigger moving horses (which aren't common in the SRS) do incur more wear and tear - it is basic physics. It isn't a matter of breakdown, so much as a matter of maintaining peak athleticism. Many horses can still perform without the maintenance, but they perform BETTER and are more comfortable with hock injections or Adequan, or supplements, or whatever else we provide.

And - how do we know the older SRS horses aren't also receiving that kind of maintenance support?

NOMIOMI1
May. 22, 2012, 03:23 PM
This above.

Breaking down is also a far cry from maintanance :)

However, we cannot kid ourselves. These are ATHLETES that COMPETE, and even with perfect training just the wear and tear of being uber fit and asked to push themselves as with any athlete there will be parts of the body that take the brunt :)

Luckily we still see Senior horses out there at the tippy top happy healthy and full of life!

fairtheewell
May. 22, 2012, 04:20 PM
True. I also think horses are drilled longer, harder, and more often these days, as well as being somewhat rushed for competition purposes. Maybe footing plays a part too. 30-40 years ago, we didn't use chiros, tons of supplements, rubber footing, etc., but there were a lot less horses competing (there were, however, big moving horses then as well). Things have, of course, changed; much of it for the better.

suzy
May. 22, 2012, 08:09 PM
I think that our footing is far superior today than it was even 10 years ago. We also have supplement, joint injections, chiro, massage, magnetic blankets (for those who believe in them), etc. As far as the big moving horses, that is also a much more current phenomenon. Breeders "get" that people want the big fancy movers, so that is what they are breeding for. We are seeing movement in the average warmblood that is equivalent to the best warmbloods of the 70s.