EAR PLUGS ?

[Laura Reed]

The practice of placing cotton in your horse's ears has been discussed on the nerve line thread. Looks as if the topic needs its own thread. Any other stewards wish to comment? How about the judges out there? We all know plenty of horses who are shown with those fuzzy color-coordinated "bunnies" (is that what you call them?) inside their ears. I don't have a problem with it. I think most judges don't have a problem with it. Is it "legal?" I've got an e-mail into the AHSA and will let you know if I receive a concrete answer.

[Laura Reed]

The practice of placing cotton in your horse's ears has been discussed on the nerve line thread. Looks as if the topic needs its own thread. Any other stewards wish to comment? How about the judges out there? We all know plenty of horses who are shown with those fuzzy color-coordinated "bunnies" (is that what you call them?) inside their ears. I don't have a problem with it. I think most judges don't have a problem with it. Is it "legal?" I've got an e-mail into the AHSA and will let you know if I receive a concrete answer.

[Colin]

Thanks for being so proactive on this issues, Laura! I am very interested to hear your reply from the AHSA. This is the first I have ever heard anything about ear stuffing being illegal. I just can't imagine it to be true since so many people do this. Again, thanks for jumping on this. I look forward to reading what you find out.

[inthesaddle]

Can't wait to hear - no pun intended. I am a dressage rider and the use of ear plugs is specifically forbidden in dressage (check the rule book).

I've groomed a few times at H/J shows and am always suprised at the number of horses who go with ear plugs.

[Moesha]

Thank you for starting this thread. I just cannot believe that anyone sees anything wrong with stuffing a horses ears.

[Ben and Me]

I am totally for the use of earplugs or those little fuzzy things (I'll call them earbunnies!). I feel that we would loose many of our top hunters. Not every horse is quiet enough to go around without them. Also, would you rather the horse be lunged into the ground or have a piece of cotton in his ear? My trainer has a 12 year old horse, one of the fanciest and most made things I have ever seen, and he will still not take that horse into the Hunt Center in Raleigh without earbunnies.

[Cap]

I stopped reading the nerve line thread, so I didn't catch that discussion. Why would ear plugs be abusive? I don't get it. Some horses (mine included) are very sensitive to sound and are less nervous in the ring w/ plugs. People wear ear plugs all the time to sleep/mow the lawn/etc. Why can't horses? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif

[Weatherford]

Interesting thread - frankly, I think changing the judging standards to allow some head play would be a better solution than earplugs. Just a FYI - I own a horse that had been shown in earplugs before I bought him, and now he does not allow anyone to touch his ears at all - it made him totally paranoid. He finally allowed me to put a fly bonnet on him (took about a year!), but earplugs? No way. I have also seen/had horses disturbed by the plugs to the point of constantly shaking their heads. Defeats the purpose, huh?

My point here being, you must be careful if you are going to use them - and perhaps, like many other devices we have discussed, they are overused.

[jch]

We have shown some horses/ponies with ear plugs and some without. Just like people, each horse is different and each has its own needs and preferences. Often horses that are just learning about the show world find there are just too many things happening at the same time. Ear plugs let them focus attention away from outside sounds. That doesn't mean they will always need them, but it sure is nice for those that like to shut out the noise of tractors, clapping or mopeds!

[J. Turner]

There are so many unnatural sights and sounds at horse shows that I don't thinks hunters should remain answerable to, like golfcarts, ferris wheels (Devon), popping,crackling loudspeakers, echoing applause (indoors), etc. These are hunters, right? Except for an occasional tractor, car, and defintely lots of dogs (or other "natural" hunting field sounds), ought they be 100% answerable to these sounds? For Gods sake, they aren't posing as parade horses!!!!

[TequilaSun]

I can see why some people would think that stuffing cotton balls down a horse's ears is questionable (assuming cotton balls are the type of cotton that you guys are talking about?)

What I do is get a black sponge (yes, they do make such things and they are sold at most drug stores) since my horse is dark-coloured, rip it in half, and stuff half down each ear.

Tequila is very young and already has a short attention span - it's so much easier for him to focus on me if some of the ruckus going on around him is deadened a bit. It's not like they make him go completely deaf - it just makes the noises more of a "background noise" rather than an "up-in-your-face sound". Make sense? I think that's why most people use them. I've never had a problem with my horse being head shy. Usually right after I put the plugs in, he shakes his head once or twice, and then he's fine.

[Melissa]

We use earplugs on most of our horses, and we show the A circuit all over FL. We dont use the rubber ones, just the Brown fuzzies. It is a great help. My horse could go w/o them, but having that little extra help keeping his attention is great. You have to admit there are so many things that go on and big horse shows earplugs are a lifesaver. It would be stupid for them to be illegal.

[Lily]

We commonly used a square cut off the end of a black polo wrap as an ear plug.

[Bertie]

Our ex-steeplechaser turned eq-horse LOVES his earplugs...he puts his head dowwwwn for you to put them in or take them out. What could be wrong with earplugs? They save sensitive horses from some needless agitation without harming or hurting them...I use earplugs in the office when I'm trying to write a report and there's too much chitchat going on around me.

[CAH]

Recently while at WEF at Tampa, I noticed a vendor selling ear plugs. It caught my eye as I have not had too much exposure to horses needing them. I am a member of a mounted drill team, and 99% of the time if a new or seasoned horse is going to react to something, it will be VISUAL (a cart with hundreds of balloons, etc). I cannot tell you how many parades we have marched in with fire engines directly behind us blaring their horns & sirens the entire way. We have TB's Arabs, QH's and many other breeds in our group. My 17H TB, who I show in hunter/EQ classes has seen and/or heard just about everything - men walking on stilts next to him; walking through smoke machines; thousands of people clapping & cheering on a boardwalk, etc. After all that, the horseshows are a piece of cake!!

[Jennifer Alcott]

Since I guess I'm to blame for bringing up the earplug subject and stating that using them is not in compliance with AHSA rules, I'll clarify why I said that.

Besides my Appendix Quarter Horse that I use for foxhunting & trail riding, I also own a Half-Arabian that is shown at A-rated Arabian shows in Half-Arabian Western Trail (Open and AOTR). We were at a show at Commonwealth Park last year, and decided to try using earplugs on her since she's easily distracted by the crackling sound that the PA system makes. Before we went in the class, an acquaintance who works the show office at some other Arabian shows came up to us (the trainer and me) and discreetly said, "You know, earplugs are 'illegal', you'd better take them out of your horse's ears before going in the class." Well, we both KNEW that they were very commonly used on the hunter circuit, but rather than arguing the point and/or risk being disqualified, we removed them. But I still really questioned their "illegality", so the next week I called the AHSA, told them that I had a very specific question about the use of earplugs, and was directed to the Rules department. I specifically asked the person to whom I was transferred, "Can earplugs be used at AHSA shows?" The AHSA employee said, "No, absolutely not. They are considered an artificial appliance, and according to Article 319.2, they are not permitted. Article 319.2 states that 'all artificial appliances other than those permitted in division rules are prohibited'."

Now, it's quite possible that this employee was wrong, but the matter was not important enough to me to pursue further. The trainer and I felt like the earplugs were a crutch (albeit a minor one), and if there was any question about their "legality", it wasn't worth risking. The earplugs do make a difference in the horse's reactions to sounds, which may or may not make a difference in our placing in a class. However, the trainer and I both approach showing as something fun to do, and it's the challenge of getting a good ride out of a difficult horse in a class that's relatively complicated that's important to us, as opposed to the color of the ribbon that the horse wins. So like I said, we just didn't bother pursuing the earplug issue any further.

I do not feel that earplugs are abusive or even remotely comparable to nerve lines, I only used them as an example of a commonly-used and relatively benign item that the AHSA does deem to be an artifical appliance (at least according to the AHSA employee that I spoke to), and that if earplugs were not allowed, then for God's sake, nerve lines certainly could NOT be "legal" according to the AHSA rule book.

I just took it on good faith that the AHSA employee that I talked to was competent and knowledgeable. I am VERY interested in hearing any responses that others get in their inquiries to the AHSA, so if anyone else gets any responses, please post them here!

Hope this clarifies how this subject got started! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Wicky]

I have a coming 4 year old, that we just took to his first show. We stuffed his (huge) ears, and he refused to jump until the ear plugs were removed - maybe he thought that the strange jumps were absorbing the sound! Then he went around like a trooper.

I do agree that ear plugs are kinder to the horse than being lunged into the ground. I guess a lot of this is to make more horses fit the hunter ideal - unflappable, among other things. Maybe we need to re-examine what the hunter ideal SHOULD be.

[Moesha]

If Stuffing eras is illegal than half of the horses out there would be disqualified at shows.

[brilyntrip]

as a judge and trainer I have to say the use of ear plugs is fine with me I also don't care if they are cotton and vivsible ,some horses are really sensitive to sound s and with the advent of all the extraniuos(sp) stuff at shows and the sound system sometimes having an actual charge thru the horse at shows (I mean it one of my students horses hates a particular show grounds due to sound system)if itmeans that i dont have to lunge them or ride themin to the ground its better for them right?

[luckyduck]

I posted my thoughts on ear plugs on the nerve line thred...I didn't see this one before I did it....anyway...as soon as anyone finds out if they are leagal or not...please let me know....the pony my daughter shows wears them...not because she's spooky or "hears" things....they just keep her from being distracted.

[pwynnnorman]

So, my hunter friends, tell me please: why do you suppose ear plugs are OK to you, but not to dressage riders? THAT's why I criticize their use. Call me a purist, but to me, your sport is too willing to cut corners instead of taking the time others sports take to develop the horse.

[I guess I've just missed being dissed. It's been a while since I posted offensive stuff.]

[AMom]

I have a question about dressage scoring before I can really consider Pwynn's question (good for you Pwynn for not being intimidated to ask such questions!). How do dressage judges deal with "behavior issues" that would count against hunters such as head play as someone else mentioned, or being a little "fresh" in the corners, etc.?

I think when it comes to today's hunters, some judges will score any display of "personality" as harshly as true behavior faults like spooking or bolting. This may account for the increase we've seen in ear plugs. My horse will not allow 'em near him so we just resign ourselves to being more "brilliant" than the average hunter!! (Yeah right, LOL)

[ccoronios]

I'll jump in behind you, pwynn - and totally support wicky's idea of revisiting the "ideal hunter". Someone (maybe prior to separating earbunnies thread from nerve lines?) supported the practice because they take 45 day old racetrack rejects to shows and the noise would be too exciting. I've worked for one of those barns (back in the days when 3'6" was the lowest fence outside eq classes) - and earbunnies are the least of what those poor critters need. How about another 6 months of training???
So what IS an ideal hunter? From what I see and read, what's showing today is as far from an ideal hunter as today's western pleasure is from a pleasure horse!
WHY is any movement condemned? If the ideal is dead but beautiful, then let's show robot-horses. Isn't there a difference between disobedience/resistance and slight movement?
Anyone from KY? Remember Ruth ?? and her dun horse, Claybank? THERE was the ideal hunter/pleasure horse..... The only thing he was lacking was beauty, but he MORE than made up for it!

[Louise]

If the rules say no artificial appliances, and we blatently ignore the rules, in spite of the fact that, as Jennefer Alcott has said, one AHSA employee has stated specifically to her that they are illegal, and quoted specific rules, why are we any better than those who use other artificial appliances. Also, what are we teaching our young riders? Seems to me we're saying "I'll follow the rules, as long as it's not to my benefit to break them". If you don't like the fact that ear plugs are banned, get the rules changed. Don't just blatently ignore them. Otherwise, you really have no right to complain when you see others using nerve lines, and other illegal devices. Yes, there's definately a difference in degree, but not in ethics.

Pwynn,is there room for two in that flame proof booth?

[Lily]

I'm very curious as to why earplugs might be illegal by dressage standards but legal by hunter/jumper standards. I know one of my horses was like Bertie's- he loved his earplugs (or at least understood their necessity) and would lower his head for them. We only used them at shows because he got nervous passing by speakers- using a small earplug eliminated the white noise and settled his nerves.

[Moesha]

I hate the self righteous attitude of some of the posts on this topic, and to make a sweeping generalization on the training methods of the country's hunters and jumpers over a $.05 piece of cotton that cannot enhance a horses jumping ability or style or help him become a better mover is ridiculous. Will someone please post the actual rule prohibiting them????

[inthesaddle]

Ok as stated earlier I'm a dressage rider AMAZED at the # of hunters using earplugs.

Dressage is all about submission, obedience, relaxation etc...... Someone asked how judges treat a horse being fresh in the corners etc.. Well that depends on the horse and the infraction.

Basically the way a dressage test is laid out for scoring purposes each required movement gets a score. In other words if you are to make a 20 meter circle in trot at C that is all placed in 1 box on the test score sheet and ONLY that movement receives a score - not the trot leading up to the 20 meter circle, not what happens afterward, ONLY the circle counts. Sort of like in jumpers - nothing matters except the fence itself.

Now comes the sticky part. At the bottom of the test sheet there are "collective" marks. This gives the judge the opportunity to score the "over-all IMPRESSION" of the test. There is a score given for Submission (here's where you'll lose pt's for those bucks, spooking, and the like)

So the long and the short of it are that dressage is still very subjective and if you make an over-all good impression on the judge and you have a little spook in the corner or a little buck into the canter it is not likely you will be DRAMATICALLY penalized. However, when it gets up to the international level any small bobble can cost you a top placing.

[inthesaddle]

Moesha,

I don't think anyone here has found out if it is legal or illegal for H/J's. It is however, forbidden for dressage. It is listed under saddlery and equipment in the dressage section of the AHSA rule book. I'll try to get to the AHSA page and paste it for you but I know for sure it is there because I looked yesterday when the whole question came up. I looked for it in the h/j section and couldn't find a place where it states specifically "ear-plugs" as it does in the dressage section.

I too get sick of dressage folks thinking they are the only good horse people on the planet (and I ride dressage)but I do have to say in my experience there are a lot of methods used in other disciplines (not just HJ) that are questionable.

Will earplugs kill a horse, probably not unless he eats them /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but isn't it possible to teach a horse to stay calm in various situations without artificial aids?

[AHC]

On this one I vote with wicky, pwynn and ccorinos. If the ideal hunter is "dead but beautiful," then some people will use earplugs, some will lunge for hours and some will resort to even less savory methods because the dead quiet ones win.

If, however, things were like they were when I first started showing in the hunters as a young teenager (mid 70s), some classes would be run on outside courses, the courses wouldn't always be the same, handy hunter classes would still exist, striding might differ from one horse to another without penalties being incurred, and 'brilliance' wouldn't be so severely penalized.

Hunters were more fun to ride and more fun to watch when there was some variety.

BTW, I too am curious about how dressage judges score for freshness, etc.

[Louise]

A dressage horse has to be obedient to the aids, to the point of focussing on the rider, not on what is going on around it. That's not to say that that always happens, watch any dressage show and you'll see plenty of spooks and inattention. However, anything artificial, that lessens the ability of the animal to be able to focus on outside interferance, acts as a crutch to the rider. The rider does not have to exhibit the skill and training necessary to handle the situation, were the outside interferences not artificially blocked.

Podhajsky(sp) stated in one of his books that, during WWII, they had to move the stallions from the Riding School to another facility, because of the danger. There was no transport available, so the horses had to be ridden, through all the noise and confusion of a war torn city. He was, of course, very worried that these horses, used to a stable environment as they were, would be panic stricken. However, due to their training, and the skill of the riders, they were able to move these animals with no problems, the horses focussed totally on their riders, as they would have done in any other situation.

That, I think, is why Pwynn is saying that there is no substitute for training. What if something unusual happens? You better have the skills, and your horse better have the training, to be able to deal with it, used to it or not.

Forgive me, Pwynn, if I am misinterpreting.

[inthesaddle]

At home, we hang flags from our arena, play the radio, encourage the dogs to play, set up an umbrella now and again etc... etc... to try to get the horses used to dealing with things. As a dressage rider, a BIG part of the training is about getting the horse to CONCENTRATE on his/her job. I constantly try to put my horse in situations that will help his self confidence - trail riding, crossing water, hand walking him within earshot of strange noises etc. I always laugh when someone inadvertently spooks my horse by doing something like sneezing - and then apologizes profusely!! The way I look at it is if the horse can't deal with a sneeze he's a danger to me and everyone around me. The more spooky things he's exposed to the better.

I want to make it clear that this stimulation does not make my horse a basket case. I've had 3 OTTB's and now have a QH - they have all learned to cope. I must admit one of my TB's was a tougher case and would sometimes jump out of his skin for no apparent reason but that same energy - when I could channel it - made him FABULOUS!!!!

[This message has been edited by inthesaddle (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Ben and Me]

Personally, until they start enforcing this rule, I will continue to use earbunnies. I know that this may be wrong and unethical and may group me with those who break much larger rules, but my horse needs them. They do not affect how he jumps, moves, or anything. They just keep his attention. How am I supposed to accustom my horse to those buzzing lights without an indoor arena? And those of you who show in Raleigh have seen those young kids playing in the TREES outside the covered ring. My friend was PARALYZED when her OWN (fairly made) horse spooked while her son was playing in the woods (and YES she was wearing a certified helmet!) Now, if I'm going to have to deal with children swinging around in trees and shrieking, you can bet that I will have my earbunnies in. Just my opinion....Don't flame me too bad.....

[Black Market Radio]

pwynn, I have to agree with you, of course it's probably because I too am a dressage rider LOL!!!

[Nickelodian]

I am whole heartedly for ear fuzzies! My last horse was poked with a cattle prod before I bought him to force him in to starting gates. The noise that a cattle prod makes is suprisingly similar to one that a humming speaker makes. He would literally flip out with that noise, and was very noise sensitive in general. After I discovered the fuzzies it was like riding a different horse! Even if there is a rule (that I couldn't find in my rule book) I would break it in certain situations.

[luckyduck]

OKAY.....just because I take race track horses and bring them to shows 45 days after they are off the track I get jabbed.....wait a minute....6 months of training.....I wish I could say....that I could keep these "babies" for six months and take my time with them hauling to shows month after month, and not exsposing them to the "loud" schooling areas and turn them into babies like my OWN four year old who has been going places with me since he was three months old...but I WAS NOT THE ONE TO PUT THEM ON THE TRACK AS A 20 MONTH OLD! HELLO!!!!!!! I took them off the track to HOPEFULLY grant them a better lifestyle, and if I can start taking them to shows to "HANG OUT" and let them regroup their own thoughts about being at a show...and let them form their own opinion about behavior and what we are expecting out of them...then YES I will stuff "ear bunnies" into their ears in hopes of softening the "blow" of the noises of our sport...and not to encourage a possible blowup and "a day at the races" instead of a calm, good introduction.
SO....to the person who made the "jab" about my reasoning....I sure as heck would rather be taking these horses out, getting local miles, and putting QUALITY time into them (while I have them) while not frightening the tar out of them....in the schooling ring from the craziness of trainers screaming...kids whinning and so on....Having to deal with learning the "dodge" of the schooling ring is ALOT on a young ex-race horse...That in itself is a nightmare for these "wild ones" to deal with...why not give them a break and let one thing at a time happen...seems to me that that will prove a calmer, more well rounded show horse in the end...that might or might not have to go around without ear plugs....
********************************************
Also whomever made the statement about hunters being "condemned" for showing personality....I think you hit the nail on the head....at least in dressage they allow for this freedom....if a hunter goes around with a dead but yet alive look...he wins....but if he dare show a little spark in his eye of loving his job and dare display it...with a little hop or a twist of his head....he is being BAD! Personally I would rather have that "spark" then a dead man...packers have a place....we all need them every now and again....but the life in a young horse needs to be appriciated and not hindered and covered up!

[luckyduck]

I would like to address one more thing. I can see ear plugs taking a bit of spook out of a horse....but In my opinion...I would think that would make it worse....spooking is a different issue then a schooling ring with a dozen trainers screaming and kids hollering and a young horse trying to deal with all of this AND "listin" to his rider.... Maybe I should have been clear....we don't use them for "spook" issues...actually our trainer says the "spook" in a horse is part of his charm...use it (the spook) instead of trying to punish it......any way....we actually use the plugs to soften their exsposure in the schooling ring....occasionally we have to show one in them...whatever...I just wanted to be sure you all understood what i was saying....
No one needs to put on their protection vests....part of learning and changing is talking with everyone like this....no one is supposed to agree completly...stop and think about what everyone has learned from these boards.

[inthesaddle]

Well I guess it really comes down to who you are and what you are trying to accomplish. I have one horse - I don't chase points - and I always try to remember this is supposed to be fun!!!!

I'm not a trainer, don't have to make my living from buying, selling, or showing horses so it entitles me to take all of the time I need to train my horse.

I think it's unfortunate any time we lose site of what we are trying to accomplish. I think people who choose to make a living with horses have to make tough decisions and are MAYBE (read that as I DID NOT SAY EVERY TRAINER IN THE WHOLE WORLD) more likely to tread into gray areas.

We have all seen horrible things done to horses to try to make a dollar. We have all witnessed abuse and unethical behaviour. Do earplugs fall into that category? I really can't say - I don't see them as abusive - IMHO I see them as a short cut that is not in the best interest of the horse or the owner.

I don't think it's HORRIBLE!!! Like using cattle prods and nerve lines.

[hoopoe]

Sorry, In The saddle, you are wrong on how dressage scores are given. Tests are divided into movements. The intervals leading up and away from a movements are scored within the movement. So A, enter trot- X halt salute - proceed trot , gets 1 score ; for the enter center line the transitions, halt and trot after the halt. next move, turn off the center line to the circle at "B" will get another score; not only for the circle but for the trot to the "B" marker and after, and for the quality of the corners.

Quality of bending through the corners is where many riders loose points on their tests. The hardest part for a lot of novice riders to get is to who to ride the whole test, not just the movements. There are a few movements that get a score for just the corner, I think one is in the GP Special.

Any disruption of the horse before or after a specific movement is judged within that movement box.

Most judges have a half way point where they consider one movement over and the next one starting. This is usually the center line, corner or through "X". Sometimes movements blend one to the next, such as the 2nd level shoulder in /circle /haunches in exercise. Three scores. Sometimes a score box will include several "movements" that only get one score.

The horse is being judged from the moment it enters A and until the salute at the end. I saw a FEI rider enter at A and get eliminated after 2 steps because she forgot to drop her whip ( when they could not carry them)

Behavior problems are weighed differently. The rules spell it out. Young ( training level) horses are usually permitted a minor "behavior" waver. Some will look out of the ring during the halt, some might shy at the judges booth the first time past. Judges are permitted to "ignore" a minor booboo. If they become persistant with in the test, however, points will come off within the movement score and below the line under the submission score and sometimes under the riders score.

Major blow ups, esp on a more advanced horse will not be tolerated. Any delay of progress of 20 seconds is cause for elimination. Once a horse is out of training level shys, spooks, loss of attention and other misbehaviors that are not obviously with reasonable cause ( that dog that ran into the ring, the judges booth door that blew open) are not well thought of. Points will be lost in submission.

Judges have the power to stop a test if a major disruption out side the ring causes disturbance to the horse. This happens rarely. When it does it is usually a loose horse cannoning around.

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, I do love these lively threads!

Moesha, reallly! You said: "...to make a sweeping generalization on the training methods of the country's hunters and jumpers over a $.05 piece of cotton that cannot enhance a horses jumping ability or style or help him become a better mover is ridiculous."

EXCUUUUUUSE ME? Are not hunters judged on MANNERS AND SUITABILITY as well? Is not freaking out when dirt hits the wall irrelevant to manners? Is accepting a variety of noisy, busy, DISTRACTING circumstances irrelevant to the traits of a good hunter?

Granted, hunters are hardly the only horse industry that chooses to redefine rather than re-examine and re-emphasize its roots. I've said it before, but I'll repeat that, IMO, hunters and eq are going the same way that western pleasure and gaited/park horses have gone: totally divorced from reality.

And I'd like to thank all the people who also don't hesitate to state their opinions frankly, on both sides of this issue.

[Flash44]

SPOOKING? He's not spooking, he's trying to SAVE YOU from that horrible thing trying to get you! You should thank him for looking out for you!

[Ben and Me]

Haha, good point Flash!

[Janet]

inthesaddle said:
"Basically the way a dressage test is laid out for scoring purposes each required movement gets ascore. In other words if you are to make a 20 meter circle in trot at C that is all placed in 1 box on the test score sheet and ONLY that movement receives a score - not the trot leading up to the 20 meter circle, not what happens afterward, ONLY the circle counts. Sort of like in jumpers - nothing matters except the fence itself."

This is not quite true. The way the dressage test is divided up, every stride, from "Enter at A" to the final "Halt at X" is included in at least one scored movement. At second level and above, sometimes there are two scored boxes for the same figure- one just for the transitions.

If "freshness" results in going above or behind the bit, or in any way not being "on the aids" it will affect the general impressions for submission. Dressage horses do not have to be calm, necessarily, but they DO have to be attentive.

[AHC]

Good points pwynn about how a hunter is judged -- manners and way of going may be affected by lots of things including ear plugs. And luckyduck, the way you describe your use of ear plugs, sounds pretty okay to me. I think easing young horses into scary situations may require extra help to give them a change to get used to things. Pwynn, luckyduck and others -- What can we do so hunters, especially young horses, are NOT condemned for actually behaving like living creatures?

[Flash44]

I agree that at the top levels, a hunter cannot even lash his tail or raise his head or he will be penalized. Which may be why some people resort to cruel, less than ethical methods to get the perfect round. I go with ear plugs, and have to admit I have had great days without them, and horrible days with them, so I am not sure exactly how well they work on my horse. HOwever, I always thought they were allowed, and will discontinue to use them if the AHSA states they are not.

Also, it is difficult to compare a dressage test to a hunter round over fences. A dressage rider rides in a balanced seat, and really has the horse right up underneath them at all times, allowing them more precise control. And the horses are usually in the same frame throughout the test ( I know there are exceptions). Whereas a hunter is usually ridden from a lighter 2 point seat, longer frame, and is asked to launch themselves and the rider through the air 8+ times during the round, landing and cantering on as if nothing happened. It is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. And if you have 10 nice horses who put in very good rounds, you have to nit pick somewhere.

As the owner of a horse whose personality come through in the show ring, I wish that the judging criteria could be changed. I ,too , long for the days of outside courses & handy hunter classes.I just wonder if I would now pe penalized for putting 18 stridesin a line on the outside course instead of 20. And ,no, it would not be from extreme speed. my horse has an obscenely long stride- Luckyduck & Ben & Me could attest to that! I have t WHOA down ALL the lines, even going at a slow canter. Fortunately, Seinfeld also has a very elastic stride-compliments of 3 hard years of gymnastis & flatwork. I can say, though, that our rounds would be much more flowing if it were OK to do 7 instead of 8 strides. It would be beautiful- and safe. As far as earplugs go- I use them on some & not on others . I have 2 that thought boogers were going to sneak up on them & they could not hear them. Oh, well. Seinfeld may look funny at a crooked flower box, but could care less if a bomb went off under him. Most of the others are just the opposite. Nothing will change with the prepping of horses until the judging changes. So, don't hold your breath. BTW, I own a tack shop & we always ell out of all the types of earplugs, and calming supplements. Thank you , judges. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Moesha]

An Ear Stuffer does nothing to make the horse perform in any way different, except that it dulls the noises that may interfere with his way of going. This is not "artificializing" anything about the horses natural style. Hunters and jumpers have to compete in very artificial settings, Downtown Washington ,Manhattan ,collesiums,and bleachers full of spectators who do not realize their noise or distracting behavior can effect a horse as he comes up to a triple combination only feet away from them. I have seen many horses that have there ears stuffed not even flinch as the wind blows down a jump next to the one they are about to jump or bat an eye as a dog runs across the ring in front of them, obviously these horses are suitable and well mannered, but loud "unseen" noises and echoes can effect a horses differently then "spooky" things they can actually see. Horses do get used to things and we all want well mannered horses that are a pleasure to ride without an abundance of artificial aids, but these little cotton stuffers should not cause such an uproar.

[Ash]

Like luckyduck, I have a horse that came from the track. A YEAR after her last race, she is still exhibiting some of the ill effects of 4 years at the track. I stuff her ears because she is very sensitive about horses coming up behind her. She thinks: horses coming up behind me = I am being caught up with = jockey is going to whip me! The first month I had her, I can't even tell you how many times she darn near shot out from underneath me!! Stuffing her ears has made such a big difference in her behavior and maybe some day she will be able to go without them, but for right now I see NO problem with stuffing her ears! If "earbunnies" will help her have a positive experience at a horse show then I plan to use them.

To the dressage people who think this is such a *gasp* horrible practice, have you ever been to an A3 horse show??? It is not unusual for four rings to be running side by side at the same time! Which means, a jumper 30 feet away could pull a rail in the combination while your hunter is supposed to be cantering softly down a line like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth!!! You have to warm up in tiny, crowded schooling areas, loud speakers are crackling, trailers coming and going etc. It is very chaotic and can be daunting for even the most seasoned horse. Stuffing a horses ears merely deadens the sound, trust me, they can still hear.

I guess at the end of the day, it all comes back to how the hunters are judged. If small displays of exuberance will continue to be penalized, then people will keep doing what they have to do to make their horses win. All I know is that a "true" hunter that is overly tired is a danger in the field. When I go foxhunting in Ireland, it is not unusual to change horses 2 or 3 times a day!! A common piece of advice heard out hunting is, "keep his head up, he is getting tired"! Or "keep a hold of his head until you can get a fresh horse". A horse cantering around with his head dragging on the ground is not something that I want to ride in the ring or in the field. Just my opinion........

[ccoronios]

luckyduck, you have very legitimate points and concerns re: showing hot-off-the-track TBs. Which, basically, are the same as mine. I guess our differences lay in the fact that when I was training, I never was involved (by choice) in buying HOTT TBs. I understand that trainers are often stuck between a rock and a hard place - either financially needing to get newbies out and sold or to please owners. My methods would be exactly as yours - only I would try to recreate show atmosphere at home and then, when taking to a show, stick to "getting accustomed" to the grounds until the horse relaxed and was comfortable without such things as earbunnies... which creates additional costs.... which is why I never bought HOTT TBs that I needed to turn over quickly.....
I don't know what the answer is - and I'm very glad that I'm behind a camera now, instead of in the midst of all this!

[Moesha]

How on earth can you recreate a show atmoshphere at home! I would love to see someone try to recreate Ocala at their barn an entire area of shops, car and trailer dealers, 8 rings several schooling rings a highway people all over the place giant water trucks about 5,000000 golf carts -Ridiculous!

[ccoronios]

re: wild children - WHERE are the parents of these little darlings? For years, I have thought that it would be better to let the dogs run loose and keep kids on leashes!
Seriously, this is a dangerous situation - and show management should be proactive and require parents to keep their children under control. Ask once and then call the police. It won't happen again!

[ccoronios]

well, moesha, I guess I should have phrased it "as close as possible". Someone else mentioned dogs, umbrellas, radios, hoses... walkie-talkies produce nasty noises.....just as much commotion as possible. Teach with a megaphone or microphone (think of how it'll save your voice!).....

[inthesaddle]

Sorry guys should have been more careful with my "dressage test explanation" - All others accounts are correct - I oversimplified - EXCUUUUUUZ me /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (kidding)

All of you who think your OTTB are soooo sensitive - HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO THE RACE TRACK????? Have you ever met a REPUTABLE track trainer?????? Have you ever been back to the barns at a track or watched the morining work-outs????? Racing just like ALL other horse disciplines has it's unscrupulous, unethical trainers however just like ALL other horse disciplines it also has people that take the time to train a horse correctly. Race horses must deal with an incredible amount of distractions, noise, crowds, loud speakers, crashing and banging etc........ I am always completely amazed how MANY (not all) will stand in the paddock to be saddled, go relatively calmly to the gate, run like hell, and then STAND in the winners circle to have a picture taken. Race horses that are well trained know their job, they work hard at it, under some very tough conditions. IMHO this means they have a great capacity to learn which can be successfully transfered to other sports.

I have had tons of experience with race horses good and bad and the fact is IF you are careful about the ones you choose and don't just buy 'em cause they are cheap and beautiful you can get a lot of very trainable, very quiet horses from the track. Not every track trainer uses cattle prods to put a horse in the gates, not every jockey whips a horse to make it run faster - if you are going to buy horses from the track IMHO you should be there to watch the horses work on a regular basis - you can learn a lot.

[Janet]

There are lots of "devices" that are legal in one division, but not another.

Dropped (or flash, or figure 8)nosebands, standing martingales, gags, twisted bits, double bridles, bimetallic bits, elavator bits, long (dressage) whips, ear plugs, bandages, etc.

Every one of these (though I have my doubts about the twisted bits)has a legitimate training use. None the less, they are illegal in one or more disciplines. Why? I think it has more to do with history and politics than anything rational.

(For example, the objectives of Dressage, and the dressage phase of a Horse Trial, are very similar, but there are SIGNIFICANT differences in the permitted equipment. Why on earth should a dressage whip be legal for a dressage class, but not for a dressage test at a horse trial?)

Anybody trying to find a RATIONAL reason for any of these things is propably just wasting their time.

[inthesaddle]

Good post Janet. I just found out that tail bandages are illegal in the warm up area at a dressage show!!!!! BTW I also found out (reading my rule book for pleasure one night - god, I have to get a life /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) that a running martingale is legal (with a snaffle only) in the warm up arena at a dressage show. I swear it's in the rule book!!!
I've always thought the rule about dressage whips not being allowed in championship classes is ridiculous! You can use your whip all year long to get all of the scores you need to go to championships and then can't use it in the arena?!?!? Why is that logical - I'm sure somewhere, somehow, someway, someone can make a case for it.

[Ben and Me]

Re: Wild Children

The parents are sitting in the bleachers right next to them or are nowhere to be found! I have heard of parents leaving the young kids with the older sibling who is also showing! Sad isn't it...Especially when a trainer finally gets sick of it and then yells at the kids. Of course, Kiddie goes crying to Mommy, and Mommy yells at trainer. Maybe if Mommy had been more responsible and hired a babysitter...

Its also pretty bad when groups of people will sit on the front row and rattle that plastic right as you jump down that line, not 5' away from the plastic! Maybe we should issue a book on horse show etiquette....

[Moesha]

I am really glad that the different divisions having different rules has been brought up. This is why things become confused. One discipline may allow one thing and another forbids it. We have to be sure to look at the discipline and if the "practice" is allowed. There are too many people with GREAT ideas and knowledge that people should just relax and not become old ninnysarouses running around finding fault in everything and using shields of superiority to deflect difference that should be heard and understood in order to educate ourselves better. Ear stuffers are not used in any devious way. We see enough blatant deviousness that we should emphasize cruel and abusive and truly ilegal and cheating tactics, because we all know there is an abundance of that. We want to enhace our horses potential and competitiveness as much as possible, but if those enhancements are legal and are only an aide to hard work and training then it is fine.

[Flash44]

Whenever I take a horse somewhere or do anything with it, i do everything in my power to make that experience a good one, and avoid anything that could scare my horse or make him nrevous. INCLUDING putting ear plugs in his ears for the 1st 2 years of showing. I board my horse and I don't have a trailer. So i am somewhat limited in being able to take my horses places to school him. And no matter how good a horse is at home, he may be totally different somewhere else. At first, you take your horse to a schooling show and walk him in hand. If he is good, lunge him. If he is still good, ride him. If he is such an angel, show him. AFter doing this for several months, you get a pretty good feel for how he reacts in strange places. What you do not want to do is push him so hard you have a battle with him at the show grounds. A piece of cotton does not do what tranquilizers do, and only dulls one sense, hearing. The horse still has eyes and a nose and can feel and react just like an unplugged horse. Getting a horse to be quiet and workmanlike in a strange place can take a really long time, even with a really good trainer and rider. If putting a little cotton in his ears brings down his anxiety level, your horse will be that much more relaxed and receptive to learning.

[Moesha]

Devildog, This is ridiculous Penning competitios! What on earth are you talking about The horses from our barn are in the National, Zone, and State standings we do all of the A shows in our Zone and Florida in the winter so please do not tell me that the ones that wear ear stuffers need to go to schooling shows maybe you should go to a A show and see how it is done, obviously you have no clue and this is starting to get tiresome. Sorry if it seems that I don't want to hear your opinion but if you do not show hunters and jumpers maybe you should keep your opinions to the disciplines you do. Obviously people who have no clue about how to turn out A quality hunters and jumpers can type critical and useless comments and hide behind self righteous and smug statements. Instead of talking about pleasure classes and penning and dressage this discussion needed to focus on Ear plugs in the hunter jumper world.

[inthesaddle]

GEEZ Moesha - lighten up!!! if you don't want to be involved in the discussion then get off the board.

I for one think it's very interesting to talk about what goes on "across discipline lines". Unfortunately I think it's the closed and single mindedness of people that is dangerous.

If you think earplugs are the right thing to do then do it - I haven't heard anything on this post that has told you otherwise.

BTW - many of us who ride dressage now started as eventers and hunters and have done the A shows etc... so don't assume we haven't been there or seen that. Maybe it is you that needs more exposure to the "real world"

[Black Market Radio]

Ok Moesha, you just proved to me what a stuck up witch you are. If you are so full of yourself that heaven forbid you should take your horse to a :gasp: schooling show to help them get used to the showing environment, than you are just a point chaser and I don't appreciate being called a "ninnysausrus" or anything like that. You have no idea who I am or my background or how many shows I ahve been to so don't for a second sit there and tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Don't call me self rightous and all that BS, I really could care less if the horses in your barn are in the state standings or back-yard nags. I think YOU are on the self righteous kick and need to back off. Talk about tiresome. Maybe if you took the time to TRAIN properly your horse wouldn't NEED earplugs. THAT was my point. I am not so stuck on myself that I can't go and do other things with my horse besides "A circuit shows". My horse is getting miles put on her without training devices. There are things in the dressage world I don't agree with. I don't agree with draw reins and german martengales. I think that your attitude about people in other disciplines and well, your attitude in general really sucks. Have a nice day.

[Ben and Me]

I was talking to my other trainer when we went to the Rolex last year and she said that many top level eventers didn't actually start eventing until they aged out of Juniors!

[Black Market Radio]

And one more thing, if you want to use earplugs, by gosh go ahead and do it. If it's not illegal, then I guess it's up to you, but I was trying to point out that earplugs can be avoided with the proper back ground and training. Do you not agree with that? You have no idea what my riding background or career is, so don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about or that I am ignorant. I was simply putting MY OWN opinion out there and I try and learn as much as I can about other disciplines. Obviously you are as bad as the hunter people I know around here who think they are the gods of riding and every other disciplines should be poo-pooed. I did not at all try to personally attack YOU, I was pointing out that I don't agree that earplugs don't inhibit the horse at all. Obviously they do something to enhance the performance or you wouldn't use them and they wouldn't be contravertial. But to turn around a personally attack me was just totally rude.

[Janet]

Moesha,

I do not have any major problems with ear plugs. Yes, they are an artifical device, but they are pretty benign.

I hope, however, that you would agree that a horse that doesn't need them (like a horse that doesn't need a martingale, or a dropped noseband, or a fancy bit) is a better trained horse than one that does.

What I DO have a problem with, is your attitiude that only people who are already completely embedded in the "A show hunter/jumper world" are entitled to express an opinion. This inward attitude "It's OK because the IN people do it, and only the IN people are entitled to an opinion" is a contributing cuase of many things that are wrong with each of the disciplines (Dressage and CT as much as H/J).

Maybe if you maintianed a more open mind you might actually LEARN something from the Dressage, CT, Pleasure, and - yes- even Penning people.

You also seem to have totally missed the point of the "penning" post- that part of the training of ANY horse can include taking them to spectate at competitons in other disciplines for exposure to the environment. Someone else mentioned riding their horse in parades. The principle is the same.

[Ben and Me]

A penning show actually seems like a good place to take a young/green horse because it is much more exciting. And, most hunters and jumpers have never come in contact with a cow! If they can deal with a cow, then whats a scary oxer? Hehe!

[Moesha]

Janet, you are ridiculous to state that a horse that goes in one form of equipment is better trained than another. Horses go in various pieces of equipment because of the effects they create on the horses performance. AND Yes this is a hunter/jumper board so like I stated different disciplines allow and train with different devices so those that ride in one should be careful when condemming the practice of another. And this is the hunter/jumper bulletin board, if you have such serious disagreements with the way show horses are turned out and you ride in a different discipline than you have no right to attack people over their training techniques, of which I could hardly call cotton ear stuffers a technique since it cannot make your horse sound, more flexible, jump higher, mover better, etc. And you are closed minded to find fault in my expressing my opinion. I'm sorry but the majority of "negative" and "holier than thou" attitudes towards hunters and jumpers has come form riders in other disciplines. I find it funny you recommended MY Trainer under the post by Northeast looking for a trainer in Middleburg, I ride in Middleburg, and my trainer uses ear stuffers all the time.

[Black Market Radio]

Thanks to those of you who GOT the point of my post and thanks for sticking up for me! Yes, there is ALOT of excitment at those penning shows! Chloe was very nervous at first but she calmed down and I took her to another arena and worked her, and she did very well considering she had never been to an environment like that! I know horses can act differently away from the barn, I board in a huge valley with tons of wide open spaces and there are only 4 horses where she is, but I have a friend with a trailor and we both like to get our horses out and doing stuff. I like to go train at shows, heck, I am taking her to h/j shows to school there too! it's not the DISCIPLINE but the EXPERIENCE that I take her for.

[Black Market Radio]

Ok, I am not even going to go there on what you said about horses in training devices... BUT, I am not closed minded. Far from it. Just because I don't agree that ear plugs are a good thing does not make me closed minded. You bashing me for taking my horse to a penning competition and how dare I suggest a mere schooling show made \for the rest of us mere mortals IS closed minded. You are the one with the holier than thou attitude, and I like a lot of the ideas expressed on this board. I guess that makes me a closed minde ninnysaraus. Out of curiosity Moesha, How old are you?

[This message has been edited by devildog20 (edited 04-14-2000).]

[Moesha]

Devil Dog, I'm not going to respond to your RUDE statements. I barrel raced in 4-h, was a C pony clubber and tried vaulting the same year I qualified for the National medal finals and my large pony and junior hunter for indoors. So please do not call me closed minded. I have my opinion like you have yours.

[Louise]

One of the things that has made this my favorite forum from the very beginning is the very diversity of people who participate. While the title is technically the "Hunter/Jumper" forum, it has evolved to the point where I think it could more rightly be called the "Horseperson's" Forum.(I really like Horseman's Forum better but am trying to be politically correct) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just think, we have hunter people, jumper people, eventing people and dressage people, all coming together to discuss different facets of the art we all love best. It is so very interesting, to me at least, to hear the opinions of those in other disciplines than that in which I participate. Thank goodness, most of the others here seem to share that willingness to listen and contribute.

Moesha, I think that you need to back off a little here. Take a minute or two and analyze all that has been said. I'll tell you what I have learned, and how my thinking has changed, as an example. Before the discussion of ear plugs started on another thread, I had never heard of using them. My first thought was, whatever for? Why don't you just expose your animal gradually to more and more stressful environments? I still think that this is the best thing to do. Where I have changed my thinking, however, is that I now can see, from the examples provided by others here, that it might be a good idea for a young horse, just starting out, to wear them as a preventative measure. That's not a 180 shift, by any means, but I still feel that I have learned and adjusted accordingly.

Where I'm still having some problems is in the area of legality. I may have missed it, but, has anyone been able to find out definately whether the plugs are legal or illegal? If they are illegal, then I've really got a problem, because, while I can see the benefits, I still wonder about the ethics. At what point is the line drawn? At what point, and by whose definition, does a piece of equipment cease to be "OK even if it is illegal"? Aren't we all concerned with all the bad influences that face our young riders today and don't we owe it to them to provide a good example, even if it is not to our benefit? Now, thats all assuming these darn little things are illegal, if they are legal, then charge me with pontificating (which you probably could anyway).

Off of the saopbox now.

[inthesaddle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
I hate the self righteous attitude of some of the posts on this topic, and to make a sweeping generalization on the training methods of the country's hunters and jumpers over a $.05 piece of cotton that cannot enhance a horses jumping ability or style or help him become a better mover is ridiculous. Will someone please post the actual rule prohibiting them????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Moesha don't you have a rule book?

and by the way I looked back through this whole thread and until the last few posts can't find anyone who REMOTELY attacked you -as far as I can tell you were the one who threw the first flames. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as you are entitled to disagree with my opinion and I am entitled to disagree with yours. I don't think we need to resort to name calling and disrespect.


I have looked and looked in the on-line rule book at www.ahsa.org (http://www.ahsa.org) and can't find any mention of earplugs in the hunter section. It is stated as illegal under dressage. I didn't check any other sections. I would ASSUME and it is only an ASSUMPTION that IF they were illegal there use wouldn't be so blatent.

[Lily]

I think I see where both Devildog and Moesha are coming from, and I agree with certain points both of you are making.

I think that people might be overestimating the value of earplugs- they only slightly muffle noises, but can't take them away completely. The horses can still hear everything. Maybe this is not the case with the rubber earplugs, I'm not sure because all I've ever used as an earplug is a piece of polo wrap. I would not say that using earplugs does the same thing as lunging a horse until he's quiet; I would not say that using earplugs prevents a horse from showing his personality in the ring.

Now let me explain one particular horse of mine to you. When we got him (at age 10) he had been shown for several years and was quite successful- he competed in the junior and regular hunters and was very high in the national standings. He was very well trained. Even though he was used to showing, and was very good at it, he still wore earplugs. No amount of exposure would change that. They did not drastically change his performance; they performed no miracles. He was simply more comfortable with them in.

My horse was always one to exhibit personality in the ring, even with his earplugs. I've had a lot of people tell me how much they enjoyed our rounds because he was so personable and fun. Earplugs couldn't take that away from him- he would still shake his head or tail if he was so inclined.

Devildog, I think it's great that you're exposing your horse to so much and that you want to train her in such a way that no devices of any kind will be neccessary. But for some horses, they are necessary, and that's just the way it is.

Until the last few posts, I really enjoyed this thread. Before it, I had had no idea that earplugs were illegal in dressage and am appreciating the opportunity to compare the disciplines and their different rules. I am assuming that earplugs must be legal in hunters/jumpers/equitation, because if they weren't, my trainers never would have used them. I hope my little example was helpful. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[paw]

Hmm. I'm showing my age here, but I don't recall horses going with "noise deadeners" at 'A' shows in the early '90s... As a matter of fact, I remember some controversy over the use of ear masks in (jumper) Grands Prix, for just this reason. But maybe that was the FEI?

FWIW, I agree with the "they're an artificial aid" crowd...

[SueL]

When Devildog takes her horse team penning she is desensitizing him/her to strange stimuli. The point in all this is to make the horse less reactive/more confident in different environments. What you accomplish by exposing the horse to weird stuff is that you don't need to expose the horse to every single weird sound, sight, smell he or she will run into at the shows in order to get a good performance. It is an effective training method. You can do a lot of this at home by exposing your horse to different situtations. Training is not just about circles, transitions and gymnastics (note please that I did not include stirrupless work for you juniors in this list - that of course falls under the category of "it's character forming" ;-) ) it is also about modifying the horse's "hardwired" reactions (well, heck they're prey!) to accomodate the demands we humans put upon them.

I think sometimes we neglect that part of training. It is often (superficially!) more efficient to use gimmicks than to do such habituation. But desenitization is a fun thing to do with your horse and if you're careful and use incremental steps rather than flooding the horse with stimuli (a method best left to experts IMO) you may find that your sensitive wimp is a lot braver and more reliable than you ever thought possible.

I'm not gonna give dressage afficiandos a halo in this thread. IMNSHO the flash noseband cranked tight with a girth tightener =:-O is one helluva lot more influential on the horse's performance than a pair of "bunny butts" (whose effect is probably an equal measure of placebo on the rider's nerves - "what ferris wheel? he can't hear no stinkin' ferris wheel!) But yet they are legal in dressage competion (well not adjusted like that I suppose) while not so in the hunter ring.

Go out and play with your horses.

[CAH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:


...that part of the training of ANY horse can include taking them to spectate at competitons in other disciplines for exposure to the environment. Someone else mentioned riding their horse in parades. The principle is the same.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said earlier, I have no doubt that riding my 17H OTT TB (who has also pinned in some nice rated shows) in parades has made him a better horse. Yes, he has a calm disposition. Yes, I can put my non horsey husband on him in a western saddle & trail ride for two hours without wondering whether I will be cashing in the life insurance policy. And yes, for the past year & and a half of training with a well known judge & trainer, the horse stopped at a fence a total of one time. Does he need a martingale, flash noseband, or earplugs? No. Would I use them if I felt they would enhance his performance? Maybe. Is one way better than other? That's why they make Vanilla & Chocolate in one package.

[JumpFoxy2000]

I use ear plugs on my hunter in the flat classes.He is a tatooed TB,which means he was gate started,that is by Mr.Prospector-so I guess if he had raced well he'd be still be a stud.Anywho,over fences he places first consitantly,but u/s he'd be so disturbed by the other horses passing him,coming up behind him,etc. that he'd really start acting up.Finally we tried earplugs and now he is getting firsts in the flat classes as well, got to love those dressage lessons also /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Anyways,I guess I am agreeing with most people on this post-it depends on the horse and I see no problem with using ear plugs in a conventional manner(not overusing-I only use them on my guy in flat classes because that's all he needs them for).
Hope this doesn't sound like a bunch of jibberish,
Leslie /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jennifer Alcott]

Originally posted by Moesha:
"... Will someone please post the actual rule prohibiting them????"

Actually, Moesha, I've done that TWICE. Once in the nerve line thread, and once on the first page of this thread. (See my post of 4/13/00 at 8:46 a.m. on this thread and try reading for comprehension this time.) The rule quoted to me by an AHSA employee as being pertintent to the use of earplugs is Article 319.2, which covers artificial appliances. This rule falls under the category of "General Rules", not under a specific breed/discipline , and therefore, I assume, applies to ALL AHSA rated shows--hunter/jumper, Arabian, Morgan, etc.

If you don't believe me, or think that the AHSA employee that I talked to was wrong, then why don't you call the AHSA yourself and ask them? And DO please let us know what they say! In fact, I wish that EVERYONE arguing either for or against the use of earplugs, and whether or not they're permitted, would do so! Perhaps that would settle the question once and for all of whether or not they are prohibited at AHSA rated shows. Oh, but wait...then I guess those people that DO use them would have to either stop using them, or risk getting caught...I suppose ignorance is bliss. Personally, I did what I thought was right: When someone told me that they weren't allowed, I called the AHSA, asked them, and then refrained from using them when an AHSA employee told me that they were not permitted. But perhaps that's too much to ask of everyone.

I really don't mean to get snippy over this, but how many times to I have to post the actual rule that was quoted to me? And how long are people going to argue about this before they pick up the phone and call the AHSA themselves? It only took about 5 minutes of my time, and I consider it time well spent.

Now as to whether or not earplugs SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be allowed...well that's a separate issue unto itself, and I suppose that could be argued into infinity.

Maybe I'll be less cranky after I have some more caffeine this morning... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Black Market Radio]

Moesha, my "rude" remarks came after YOUR rude, stuck up comments. Why do I think your stuck up?


"Devildog, This is ridiculous Penning competitios! What on earth are you talking about The horses from our barn are in the National, Zone, and State standings we do all of the A shows in our Zone and Florida in the winter so please do not tell me that the ones
that wear ear stuffers need to go to schooling shows maybe you should go to a A show and see how it is done, obviously you have no clue and this is starting to get tiresome."

Now, I don't know about you, but that sounds rude and stuck up to me. Just because I don't agree with something and I have a different view on something does NOT make me ignorant and does NOT mean I have never been to an A show or anything like that. You totally missed the point of my post. My point was not team penning, but EXPOSURE. My first post was my opinion, and I in no way personally attacked you and then you made me seem like I was smoking crack for even SUGGESTING that horses should go to OTHER competitions besides A shows because heaven forbid they were NATIONAL. In fact, it wasn't until later that you said you took your pony to barrel racing! Well, I find nothing wrong with that, but then you should not attack me for going to a penning competition! I was not the one who started out rude here, I stated my opinion and you lashed out hard at me. I am not going to change your opinion and You are not going to change mine, and I really don't care. But I am allowed to show my opinion as much as you are allowed to show yours so let's leave it at that. I may have used your name in my original quote, but it was not meant to personally attack YOU. I was disagreeing with what you SAID. On another note, I am e-mailing the AHSA right now and I will post their response. If it's legal, I still don't agree with it but hey it's a free country, and if it's NOT legal, then that is a whole 'nuther issue.

[farmgate]

SueL, Thanks for the great chuckle...I loved the bit about the ferris wheel. And I agree on all the very good points made.
As someone else before said, they are called, and have been forever, artificial aids not "devices" which sounds more insidious and might include "battery operated".
Also, how many coaching fans would head out without their blinkers attached.

[This message has been edited by farmgate (edited 04-15-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

Way back in this thread (sorry, I've been too busy to keep up!), two different posts said something like "have you ever been to an A-3 show" or "have you ever done this, that or another."

Well, interestingly enough, that's EXACTLY my point. I, and I'd guess that most not-strictly-hunter people on this board HAVE been here, there and everywhere, while some of you strictly hunter folks may very well not have. That's why WE know that it is possible to develop a horse to concentrate, etc. That's even why we come here--to continue our appreciation and education...

No, not all horses can be developed in X way. But again, no matter how you try to ignore the fact, that IS a suitability issue. The "hunter" who is so dumb, hyper, wired or whatever that he NEVER goes around without ear plugs is NOT a "suitable" hunter, IF one respects the original philosophy. Just like a hunter who bucks is showing bad MANNNERS, etc., etc.

To Moesha and Ash, as I stated before, I SELL horse to hunter people--more than to any other, in fact, because you guys are willing to pay well, even for younger stock and for TBs (unlike eventers and dressage riders--OK, shoot me for the broad generalization).

I am indeed a upper level dressage rider, but I was also an eventer and I routinely take my babies to hunter shows to school them, and I follow and spectate at the top shows because ponies I've sold show there, etc., etc. What about YOU two, Moesha and Ash? Maybe if you came to OUR sports more often, you'd realize that dressage shows ALSO have numerous rings going, crowded warm up areas, and guess what? We don't even have 3'-4' high fences to keep our horses in the ring when they might act up or get distracted. And yet we have three and four year olds doing relatively complex sequences of movements, smoothly, rhythmically and confidently. How do we do it? Why can't you do it, too?

You don't know how we do it, you don't care to find out and you aren't about to take the time to as long as there's a quicker, easier way.

I won't bother being immodest. I state these things because one reason why I hold the opinions I do is because I think I am a WELL-ROUNDED horseperson. Moreover, I do have considerable criticisms of those who prefer to cut corners instead of take the time that is necessary--and ear plugs DO cut corners--because I don't and if I did, maybe I'd be further than I am (if that were my goal, which it isn't).

Yes, ear plugs may cut corners that would never even be APPROACHED given the mentality of some horses in the ring these days. So, it's OK to cut the corner because you don't have a horse with the right mentality, but want to win anyway? As long as it moves and jumps well, who cares about the mental part?

Yes, ear plugs are pretty minor. But, folks, WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? And who gets to draw it?

Step out of your industry for a moment, like the team penning comment tried to get you to do, and consider this very same situation in another industry. Consider the park horse or the walking horse. Over time, the walking horse's shoes got bigger and bigger, longer and longer, heavier and heavier. These days, park horses live their entire lives stabled because the shoes they wear do not allow them to be turned out.

Yet, all of the high-stepper breeds have gotten to a point in their rules and regulations that someone said, "That's enough. We've got to stop this somewhere." I don't know about the specific rules for all of them, but I do know that Morgans--and I suspect ALL gaited breeds--limit the size and weight of shoes horses can carry.

I use the shoes instance because just like ear plugs, shoes are not abusive devices. Yes, someone may say, but they DO change the horse's performance. Well, I've already argued that so do ear plugs, as long as you continue to identify suitability and manners as part of what is being judged.

So, Moesha and Ash, I ask you: where do YOU draw the line? What guidelines do you use when you deviate from the basics of bit, bridle, saddle, martingale, shoes, crop and spurs? Would you allow an all-natural glue to be inserted under the tail to make it stay put and quiet?

Or, better still, if your grey horse got nervous in the ring and pooped yukky, runny, greenish brown, smelly stuff down its legs and into its pretty, white tail in a very distracting and thoroughly unappealing way throughout its round--but otherwise had superb form and movement--would you allow some kind "anal plug" to be inserted just before it entered the ring?

Ear plugs are expedient. Expediency is too much a part of too many hunters' and equitation horse's training. How can that change? By re-visiting the judging criteria and setting them so that they make healthy horsemanship, rather than expediency. That applies to tight curb reins o/f on equitation horses as much as to ear plugs on hunters.

[Black Market Radio]

pwynn, you are my hero! I am still laughing about the anal plug as well!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You said it all and I am not going to repeat it but I have one thing to say, AMEN.

[Twister]

I think we have also lost sight of the fact that horses are individuals. I wish I could remember who it was, but I remember seeing an actor who has TERRIBLE stage fright. Most of the time, doing something over and over again deadens one to the newness. Not this guy. Twenty years on the stage and he is still in a cold sweat every night.
I 'trained' a 14 year old childrens hunter who had been around every block in the park. As long as he was showing right along, all was well. Give him a month off from showing and it was as if he had never set foot on a showgrounds:spooking at the loose paper, cups, jumps, horses, you name it. He had to show in all the warmups just so all the spooks would be gone by the time his tiny child showed up for the week-end. Now, according to the trainer who showed him in the pre-greens and first years, he had improved somewhat over the last eight years.<g>
I agree that most of learning to horse show is just being AT the horse show, but not every horse is the same. I had a pony we used to pack the grain to and never do too many classes because she would be too lazy to keep getting up the lines. If she did the under saddle in an indoor arena, she had to have her ears stuffed or she'd be a runaway.
We are all smart enough to know every one of these beasts is an individual. If they're not, why are there so few I can ride well? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Black Market Radio]

I too had an OTT TB, and he too reacted to other horses running up behind him UNTIL I worked with him in lot's of different situations and places. He used to take off running with me in U/S classes, and what did I do? I took him to clinics, I rode in group lessons where my instructor would use the loudspeaker to talk to us, I took him everywhere and exposed him to everything. I know not all barns are as well equipped as that one is, and I don't board there anymore but I still take my new horse out and about to get her used to stuff. It can be done, and I agree with pwynn that it is a suitability thing. Horses get used to their environment. They are not like a stage frightened human, they are condition/response creatures. The point to cross-referencig dressage and their rules about ear plugs is not to say dressage is better, but that if the dressage horses can cope with the sights, sounds and noises, and yes, the multiple rings going on and the crowded warm up areas, if police horses can have fire crakers explode at their feet and not spook, and be in crowds where riots are happening, then why do certain hunter's HAVE to have earplugs? I believe that a horse with earplugs should not be pinned over a horse without earplugs. Because to me, it's plain and simple, black and white. The horse with the cleanest round with the least amount of gadgets should win over a similar round maybe a little better but only because they had cotton in the ears. I would be really upset if after all the hard work I did training my horse to be the best he can be without ANY gadgets, but because my horse may have pricked an ear over a sound but the horse with earplugs won over me because it didn't prick it's ear. And as I stated before I don't use gadgets on my horse, she goes in a dee ring bit and a LOOSE flash noseband. No martengales, side reins, draw reins or anything. But I am training my horse to listen to ME and concetrate on ME and not what is going on everywhere else. As a result when I took her to that :gasp: team penning competition and worked her in another arena, she started to focus on me and what I was doing, and if she lost her focus I would make her get right back with me. No hesitation. Stimulus, response.

[pwynnnorman]

Hear, hear, Devildog!!!! Well put.

[J. Turner]

Dressage is different than hunters, obviously. I can understand why ear plugs wouldn't be legal in dressage. Your horse must be totally submissive and obediant to the aids. While this is partially true with the hunters, a good hunter, while rateable, "takes you to the fence. There is more decision-making power delegated to the horse in jumping, therefore giving the horse more opportunity to observe the world around him. While the ultimate hunter would not spook at anything in the field, and would be aware of all that goes on around him (other horses, footing, hounds, the jumps), the artificial environment of horse shows, especially indoor horses is more the test of a parade horse or police horse! Also, the rider does have a degree less control galloping around the ring in a half seat or modified half seat than a collected canter in a full dressage seat.

Folks, does this make any sense?

[Good to go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
I hate the self righteous attitude of some of the posts on this topic, and to make a sweeping generalization on the training methods of the country's hunters and jumpers over a $.05 piece of cotton that cannot enhance a horses jumping ability or style or help him become a better mover is ridiculous. Will someone please post the actual rule prohibiting them????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe that are only prohibited on certain "spiteful" chestnuts!!!!

[Flash44]

Good point, J. Turner, that we do have to hand over a bit (no pun intended) more control to our horses in the hunter ring, as they are expected to go around on their own and we just make minor adjustments. Can you imagine having to hunt a horse for several hours that you have to ride ride ride every step of the way? As the horse goes along in his training program, he learns to carry himself and balance himself so the rider only has to do minute fine tuning during a round. Are some of your best rounds the ones where you pretty much did nothing, just let your horse canter around? Your horse has learned to hold his rhythm and pace through the course.

Some of our best hunters and jumpers are race track rejects, and need ear plugs. I know TBs, and you can't always train the track out of them. Sometimes just getting them to go quietly around a course is miraculous! So what if they need earplugs? Should we expel them? Send them to the auction or the slaughterhouse? I think it is wonderful that these horses have been given a second chance to lead a healthy, happy and productive life.

Does anyone know of a nonTB that needs earplugs, or does this seem to be a TB realted thing? If it was simply a training issue, wouldn't horses of all breeds need ear plugs?

[Ben and Me]

Many horses I know show in earplugs not because they actually need them, but because they might. Your horse might be the absolute quietest thing in the world but who can account for those once in a show noises. The ONLY time the loudspeaker starts spazzing, the only time a jumper in the ring 10' away crashes through a huge oxer...Your horse could easily spook at this and put you out of the ribbons (and prize money!). But maybe with those earbunnies in, his focus would be on his task instead of the squeaking speakers. Just a thought....

[pwynnnorman]

Yes, J. Turner, those are good points, but...

Why won't one of you address the "suitability and manners" aspect?

I'm not saying to send all TBs to the auction, but I AM saying that maybe all TBs aren't suitable show hunters--indeed, the warmblood craze attests to that fact.

Indeed, indeed, Flash, while you too make excellent points, between the lines of your statements you are still saying "This kind of horse isn't as good at it as that kind of horse, so we need to use something artificial so we can make up for that fact."

And as Devildog stated, that's somewhat unfair on those who DON'T need to do so (or don't want to do so for moral/philosophical/purist reasons).

[ccoronios]

I have a question re: crashing fences and squawking loudspeakers: WHY would anyone want their horse to be oblivious to these things? Now, before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not advocating a wild and crazy reaction! I'm asking - what's WRONG with acknowledging that something isn't "normal"? Does the rider not look - or flinch - or become distracted for just a moment? Has anyone read Black Beauty recently? Hunters are supposed to be (well, there's that "what's the ideal hunter" question again!) safe galloping over the river and through the wood. Do you really want to do that on a horse with no reactions? Don't we want our horses to use their brains (or instincts)? I KNOW that horses can be trained to accept abnormal situations. For heaven sake, riding them is abnormal for them! I don't like the dead look in western pleasure and I don't like it in hunters.. Lucky for most trainers (and me, probably), I'm not a major judge!
Ah well, flame away....I'm sure there's more room in that suit of pwynn's!

[Bertie]

Wow, I can't believe this thread is 3 pages long. A debate about the use of earplugs! As if their use could change a poorly trained or misbehaving horse into a winner. LOL! Yes Flash, I know of warmbloods that show with earplugs. Do they need them? I don't think any horse NEEDS them. They don't make that much of a difference.

Maybe we should start a debate about the use of fly spray at horse shows! I'm sure some of you that train the spook out of your horses could train your horses not to react to flies while in the ring... while the rest of us poor excuses for horsemen have to resort to something as artificial as spray.

Sorry -- I just can't believe that people are condemning the use of ear plugs!

[Louise]

LOL Bertie, I just got a mental flash of trying to teach either one of my horses not to react to flys. Talk about getting the "What are you, nuts" look from them.

I have been wondering what good stuffing something in a horses extremely sensitive ears is going to do. My suspicion is that it is an aid for the rider more than the horse. Rider thinks "My horse's ears are stuffed so he can't hear all of those awful noises." Rider relaxes. Horse relaxes because rider isn't tense. Horse goes better.

I stated this earlier, I'm going to restate it. Jennifer Alcott quoted AHSA rules prohibiting the use of artificial appliances, (appliances, devices, same thing different words, one just sounds a little better). She also stated that a call to the AHSA lead to an individual there stating that ear plugs are illegal. While I agree that they seem to be a fairly benign thing, I question, along with Pwynn, where you draw the line, and, who determines where that line will be drawn? I have yet to see that addressed. If you use ear plugs, knowing that they are illegal, because you think they help you win, it, IMHO, then becomes easier to justify moving to the next harsher appliance, and the next, etc., because, after all, they may help you win also. The point, it would seem to me, would be to win, while staying within the rules, thus keeping the playing field level for all participants.

[Bertie]

This thread has 2 parts -- The first part is Laura's question in the very first post: Are ear plugs allowed or not? I've yet to see a horse eliminated for using earplugs, but if they're not allowed, let us know, and we won't use them. -- And if they're not allowed, I would wonder if gel-pads are allowed for horses with sensitive backs...

The second part is the part of this discussion that baffles me -- turning this into a moral and ethical question of horsemanship is, IMO, ridiculous!!!

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 04-15-2000).]

[Black Market Radio]

I was not justifying the use of "aids" in other disciplines, I said I don't use any gimmicks or shortcuts to train my horse. Is it frustrating? At times, yes it is! But in my lesson today my mare was being so awesome and all the hard work I have put into taking the extra time to train her classically and not use any quick fixes is paying off. I strongly disagree with draw reins and would not use them, the same with side reins that are too tight. Is if I were to lunge in side reins, they would be VERY loose and just enough for the horse to feel contact when she stretches down. I don't like to see dressage horses cranked into frames as much as anyone. I am not advanced enough in dressage to address the double bridle issue, but I have used one on my old GP schoolmaster, but he already traveled in "self carriage" and so the slightest rein cues were all that were needed, no cranking or pulling, but quiet, subtle hands. And comparing a double bridle to ear plugs is a little odd because the double bridle is required in upper lever dressage, ear plugs are not a required thing. And a double bridle or flash caveson do nothing to inhibit a horses senses in any way. If the horse still shows "personality" and it "hardley affects them" then why are they used at all? I still stand strong to my opinion on how the horse with the least amount of gimmicks should win, even down to the ear plugs. I don't condemn it just because it is forbidden in my sport either. If it was allowed or if hunters was my main discipline, I STILL would have the same opinions. I do not jump on bandwagons. And I am still waiting ti hear from the AHSA. Why don't those of you who question the answer that someone called in and got pick up the phone yourselves or e-mail them and find out for yourselves? I e-mailed them and I intend to call right now and get an immediate answer. I will re-post in a few.

[Black Market Radio]

I started a new topic with the answer!