PDA

View Full Version : Quarter horse show



hoodoo
Jun. 16, 2002, 12:05 PM
I stopped by a big QH show in the area today. I caught most of the hunter under saddle, eq, etc.

I was MORTIFIED!! These people seemed to have just dressed their western horses up in english attire for the day and called it a hunter.
The horses noses were dragging on the ground and all of them were doing the western four-beat canter. Not one of them held the reins properly, and many didn't seem to know what a diagonal was.

On an up side--didn't see any rust breeches or GPA's /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hoodoo
Jun. 16, 2002, 12:05 PM
I stopped by a big QH show in the area today. I caught most of the hunter under saddle, eq, etc.

I was MORTIFIED!! These people seemed to have just dressed their western horses up in english attire for the day and called it a hunter.
The horses noses were dragging on the ground and all of them were doing the western four-beat canter. Not one of them held the reins properly, and many didn't seem to know what a diagonal was.

On an up side--didn't see any rust breeches or GPA's /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PonyHunter
Jun. 16, 2002, 12:14 PM
Yes, I know what you mean. My trainer goes to big Paint Horse shows every weekend, and all my friends have Paints. But Paint shows are really very different from hunter shows. Most of the hunter horses were bred and started out by western people. So they have a whole different way of carrying themselves. I personally don't like it at all. Yup, I know all about that.

To ride or not to ride? What a stupid question!

My pony is so polite - he always lets me go over the jump first!

Chrissy
Jun. 16, 2002, 12:15 PM
Winglish. *shudders*

Breed shows have thier own standards though, just as USAE shows do. Thier right is our wrong, and our hunters look "awfully high headed" to them...but, to the AQHAs credit, they DO NOT encourage the "below the horizontal" peanut roller headset.

I boarded at a QH barn for about a year, it was STRANGE to say the least. But to each thier own. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Common sense aint so common.

Blue Devil
Jun. 16, 2002, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hoodoo:
and many didn't seem to know what a diagonal was.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure (so no one flame me for this, I haven't read their rule book!!) but I believe diagonals are not a crucial part of the QH or at least schooling level Western/English under saddle/flat. A college student who works at my barn feeding & such rides Western (she just works at the barn, she rides someplace else) and she told me last week (she was watching my trainer give a lesson in the ring who was reminding a little girl on a pony to check her diagonal) that she never learned anything about diagonals and that "we just post to a rhythym not a certain one."

Now, anyone out here feel free to correct me, but Heather supposedly shows on the county-level Western/English circuit and has done somewhat successfully.

Just what she told me! & I couldn't believe it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**~~Emily~~** proud
member of the junior clique!
Emily@catchride.com

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 01:03 PM
Well I am not sure about QH shows where you are, but down here in Fl., things are a little different. I show Palomino and know many who show QH. Yes, their heads are lower than a hunters, but definitely should not be below verticle, or peanut rollers. Many, many judges are really starting to place down or not use horse that go like this.

Secondly, you do have to know your diagnals. As a youth, I got creamed in equitation until I learned to get my diagnols without looking. Even now, you wouldn't place high in equ. if you don't know your diagnols and get the wrong one. Now I have never noticed a trend of riders not getting diagnols in the under saddle. Most people do know how to ride correctly.

That said, my palomino does carry his head pretty level, and for many of the horses, this can come naturally. But when he jumps, he picks up his head and uses himself correctly. On days when I don't want to school him for a show, I will let him trot and canter with his head up. It is all a matter of style and opinion of what is right. Very few horses will place well if they don't use themselves properly. Judges will place down a horse that is going on the forehand.

*In Your Dreams*
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:05 PM
I call them the "hunners", oh god, I could have mmy flame suit on all night. I do not see what is so huntery or attractive about having a horses head to the ground with short western pleasure gaits, and riders who cant even be called riders. I am just waiting for the day that a horse like that trips and falls and the rider goes flying. They will not even show their faces at a rated show because they know their way of going is wrong. I got beat by them at local shows when my horse was a baby, I never went back. What is the point? Sorry QH people, I know you are not all like that, but the majority is! If I can find a picture, I will attach one later of the peanut pushers. UGH!!!!

**~~Andrea,and In Your Dreams~~**
Follow Your Dreams...
Except the one where your in school in your underwear.

"Horse Sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people." - W.C Feilds

"Why does it take a lifetime to learn to live a lifetime?"

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one and they all stink.

Proud Member Of The Abercrombie and Fitch Clique, aka the IGETCRABBY and B*tch Clique.

Also A Follower Of:
The Baby Greenie Support Group!

hunterjumper19
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:05 PM
From what I understand, in breed shows (I show Morgans) in equitation, knowing your diagnols is of course crucial /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif however, in the hunter classes diagnols do not count, and though most do know their diagnols, some post on the wrong one, for example if their horse's cadence is off when they post on the correct diagnol. I've seen it many times /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Aimee

Jun. 16, 2002, 04:11 PM
I don't know what show this was, but knowing diaganols is so important at QH shows (It's important everywhere) Almost all of QH riders easily pick up the right one without looking down...at least, that's what we are drilled on. Judges can't stand people looking down (they hate it!) so we get them without looking.

And yes, there are peanut rollers. However, the judges are mostly NOT placing those horses anymore. There is a very big effort to eliminate it all together, however, it can't be done overnight.

And those Under Saddle horses do NOT have short strides...have you ever seen a class of NICE ones go? Long Long strides.

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

DMK
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:24 PM
Well the "art" of taking the wrong diagonal is certainly not a stranger to the hunter ring. See how many pros you catch popping over to the wrong diagonal on a turn or as many places as they think they can get away with, if it just so happens that their horse trots better on one diagonal over the other!


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Duffy
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Well the "art" of taking the wrong diagonal is certainly not a stranger to the hunter ring. See how many pros you catch popping over to the wrong diagonal on a turn or as many places as they think they can get away with, if it just so happens that their horse trots better on one diagonal over the other!

_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm...better, or perhaps sounder? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chrissy
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:48 PM
Hmmmm...better, or perhaps sounder?

Gosh...what a funny but correct point. I suffer so much from professional worship that my first thought when I see something like that is "Gee, they must be concontrating SO hard on something else that they overlooked the diagonal! Wish I could ride like that!"

Common sense aint so common.

Anne
Jun. 16, 2002, 04:52 PM
You mean the pros who haven't learned to kick the leg opposite the off one before they get on? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 16, 2002, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hoodoo:
I stopped by a big QH show in the area today. I caught most of the hunter under saddle, eq, etc.

I was MORTIFIED!! These people seemed to have just dressed their western horses up in english attire for the day and called it a hunter.
The horses noses were dragging on the ground and all of them were doing the western four-beat canter. Not one of them held the reins properly, and many didn't seem to know what a diagonal was.

On an up side--didn't see any rust breeches or GPA's /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I know what you mean...my barn has breed shows (QH, Arab, etc..) and rated shows. anyway, this weekend is yet another QH show. It was downright SCARY. Half of the horses looked as if they were about to fall flat on their face! Granted, some of them were cute, but the majority had their noses almost touching the ground! and some people would switch between hunters and western and their poor horses didn't now whether to trot, jog, canter or lope! I know that judges on the AQHA circuit (I don't know anything about breed shows /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ) don't like "peanut rollers" (or am I just confused again?) and don't place them very high in good competition. And don't even get me started on people in hunter classes cantering (or should I say loping?) on the buckle...*sitting on her hands so as not to type anything else to make people mad* /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

MeanderCreek
Jun. 16, 2002, 05:08 PM
As has been said already, sometimes it is beneficial to post on the wrong diagonal, most all horses are better one way than the other and sometimes helping them the bad direction comes in the form of posting on the opposite diagonal and sometimes its for soundness reasons /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyone in the Eq however will be on the correct diagonal - usually without looking, or be put down for it.

As for the type of movers, at dinky shows your probably not going to find good movers, same as at dinky hunter shows.

Also, in the Youth Activity and Novice Amateur classes at any level show, your not going to see le creme de la creme - your going to find average horses going around doing the best they can do even though it might not be their best event.

Finally - theyre NOTcalling them hunters!!!! They are HUNTER UNDER SADDLE HORSES NOT HUNTERS

One more thing - how productive is it to bash other breeds and disciplines? Does it make you feel better? Like a bigger person? Can you tell me exactly what it accomplishes to criticize people who are out there trying to have fun, enjoy their horses, make a few friends, learn a little something and participate in a hobby/sport that they apparently are attracted to?

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

akrogirl
Jun. 16, 2002, 05:29 PM
I have also been a spectator at several of the big Paint shows (my trainer does Paints as well as Hunters) and been horrified at how many horses and riders have placed well after going all around the ring on the wrong diagonal or lead. This happened to one of the ladies from our barn, and it was definitely a mistake on her part - she does regular Hunters also. Usually there are four judges in the ring, and I guarantee that at least two out of the four will go for the peanut rollers /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I have given up on trying to figure out which horses are really lame and which are just doing some version of the the lope etc.

Even scarier than the flat classses are the Hunter Hacks where many of the trainers even jump their horses peanut roller style /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif The poor horses don't even get chance to see the fences till the last moment.

And yes, I have read that the judges are not supposed to be rewarding peanut rollers anymore, but I sure wouldn't be able to tell that from what I have seen around here. And I am not knocking the competitors - I have seen some of the riders, who were trying to ride their horses correctly per the APHA guidelines, get frustrated by the continued selection of the peanut rollers.

The results from the Paint World Show should be interesting because I know they are going to have some USAE Hunter judges there for the English classes /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by akrogirl on Jun. 16, 2002 at 08:40 PM.]

NoGreatMischief
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:

One more thing - how productive is it to bash other breeds and disciplines? Does it make you feel better? Like a bigger person? Can you tell me exactly what it accomplishes to criticize people who are out there trying to have fun, enjoy their horses, make a few friends, learn a little something and participate in a hobby/sport that they apparently are attracted to?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen sister.

If they're not hurting their horses, or telling you how you should ride your horse, then what's the harm?

Holy snob factor on this thread.

I'll let you know how my upcoming Hunter Under Saddle class goes at the Appaloosa show... ***for shame!*** /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Katie~
"The earth shook, the beach grass trembled, he propelled himself forward, and he flew." ~Mark Helprin

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:29 PM
Ok, I am going to post some pictures of my horse, James. He is one of the top horse in Palomino, and has been nationally ranked every year that I have shown, including winning in the nation in a number of his classes. He also has a world championship in hunter hack, winning under all four judges. You can see that he is not a peanut roller and he would not be able to jump like he does if I didn't let him pick his head up to jump.

Yes, there are some horses that go with their heads too far down. They also got creamed this past Memorial day weekend and were not used by the judges for the most part.

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:34 PM
Second jumping picture.

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:39 PM
Here is his trotting picture. Yes he has his head down lower than hunters, but he is not a "peanut roller" and that is definitely not a short stride.

Sparky
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:50 PM
Here's another perspective--I showed at that show. And the friend I trailer with won the dreaded Amateur Hunter Under Saddle class that so mortified hoodoo. He is a 4 year old that she has worked hard with, who has lovely and correct gaits and she even knows how to hold the reins and what diagonals are. And while my daughter and I run one of the nicest h/j barns in this area, I have a western pleasure horse that I adore and these shows are like a breath of fresh air to me. Why? For the same reason that you all have horses---on a gorgeous sunny summer day, don't you feel like the luckiest person on earth that you have a nice one, can get to a show, hang out with your friends, compete a little and maybe go home with a prize? I do. And I'm not one bit "mortified" by the way anyone else rides their horse. If the best thing you can find to do with your day is to check out a breed show for the snickers, then I feel sorry for you.

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Imaginagent:
Here is his trotting picture. Yes he has his head down lower than hunters, but he is not a "peanut roller" and that is definitely not a short stride.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't normally like palominos, but he is beautiful /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In my reply, I was talking about horses that have their noses 6 inches from the ground. I also understand that QHs have slightly different conformation such as the lower set neck. He looks like a very nice horse:)

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Royal Blue
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:54 PM
Imaginagent - your horse is adorable. He looks identical to a young (3/4 yr old) world title holding gelding we had in the barn. Also a Florida horse but can't remember his show name for the life of me, owner did mostly QH shows trainer did the palomino shows (Tommy something in the midwest). But anyways very cute.

I have been dying to bring Blue to a paint show to see how he would do. He's a beautiful, big, floaty mover /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If the shows were closer & I had the money to waste I'd do it in a heart beat.

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:56 PM
Thanks for the compliment. I do know that people don't like the ones with their noses so close to the ground. As a palomino person, I don't like them either. James has been a truly terrific horse that made my biggest dreams come true.

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 06:59 PM
Royal Blue, I am sure that your horse would do fine. Contrary to what is being said, big, floaty horse do well. Usually at the biggest shows, a western style horse is not going to place with against horses that trot really big. Post a picture if you can.

Chrissy
Jun. 16, 2002, 07:02 PM
If they're not hurting their horses, or telling you how you should ride your horse, then what's the harm?

Well...A below the horizontal neck/headset isn't exactly "healthy" IMO.

Common sense aint so common.

cgn38
Jun. 16, 2002, 07:17 PM
Imaginagent: your horse is beautiful! He looks so confident and relaxed over that fence - the perfect hunter.

Imaginagent
Jun. 16, 2002, 07:25 PM
skinflint: Thanks. I would love to take him to some hunter shows soon. Maybe in the winter I will do some. I just worry that he would not be well received based on color.

Proud new member of the Thoroughbred Clique

Royal Blue
Jun. 16, 2002, 07:35 PM
Imaginagent - there a couple of pal. that show at our area rated shows. Go for it!

Jane
Jun. 16, 2002, 07:57 PM
Would someone please clue me in on what a peanut roller is/means?

myEllie
Jun. 16, 2002, 08:05 PM
A peanut roller is a horse that carries it's head so low, that it looks as if her is pushing a peanut along the ground with their nose.

Jun. 16, 2002, 08:06 PM
A peanut roller headset is just what it sounds like, the horses travel with their heads so low, it looks like they could push a peanut along the ground with their noses. They are not liked much anymore /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And amen MeanderCreek! What's the point of saying what you don't like about breed shows? Obviously, tons of people do, and your opinion probaly won't change anything. We AQHA people don's sit around talking about "A" circuit people /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

Jane
Jun. 16, 2002, 08:50 PM
thanks guys. See, you learn something new everyday!

Tosca
Jun. 16, 2002, 09:14 PM
What is it about people who show on the "A circuit" and particularly in the "hunters" that makes them look down their noses at any other horse people? Why do they feel the need to bash people who do things differently? Why do they think that their way is the only and best way? What gives them the right to judge other people, relative to themselves? Like No Great Mischief said, as long as they aren't hurting their horses, what is the harm?

And finally, WHO *%#$&^@ CARES IF THEY WEAR GPA'S OR SHOW IN RUST BREECHES??!!

Grow up and get a life.



"Me? What about you? You kicked me in the shin!"
"I slipped on the ice and my foot accidentally went into your shin."
"Twice?" Draco Veritas

Starbucks
Jun. 16, 2002, 09:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:

And finally, WHO *%#$&^@ CARES IF THEY WEAR GPA'S OR SHOW IN RUST BREECHES??!!

Grow up and get a life.



"Me? What about you? You kicked me in the shin!"
"I slipped on the ice and my foot accidentally went into your shin."
"Twice?" _ Draco Veritas_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that was a little out of line. The GPA/rust breeches thing was a joke.

hoodoo
Jun. 17, 2002, 05:21 AM
Thank you Starbucks--it was a joke.

And Sparky--I Did NOT go to this show to find fault in other people. I went out of pure curiosity, and actually wanted to see the western stuff, but missed it, as I didn't have time.
Sorry if I offended you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

hoodoo
Jun. 17, 2002, 05:23 AM
BTW Sparky,
I must have missed your friend's class. I wasn't there for all of them.

Heineken
Jun. 17, 2002, 06:00 AM
I showed the National AQHA circuit in the mid 90's (took a medal at Congress, youth worlds top placings etc...) and I would have been NAILED TO THE TRAILER if I had ever missed a diagonal...my trainer used to put me on the longe line with my eyes blindfolded to practice...The short strided, head on the ground look is going OUT fast, take a look at an undersaddle at the Congress, the Worlds or any BIG circuit and you will see horses that OUT MOVE anything I've seen lately on the AHSA circuit! Local shows are local shows in any discipline!

Baby horse has arrived and I already have a vet bill for stitches....

BarbB
Jun. 17, 2002, 06:22 AM
I think a lot of people are getting their shorts in a wad over nothing.

I showed QHs for many years, now I do eventing and have TBs.

The QHs shows DO look strange to someone who is used to the H/J shows. The horses are mostly ridden similar to the way they go in the western classes, loose rein, head down, mostly moving on their forehand. A QH 'moving out' still looks short strided compared to a TB or warmblood. (Many TBs look short strided compared to many warmbloods.)

Many people in the H/J world aren't used to the idea of "breed" shows. The standards are different. The same horses compete in more than one type of competition. Many shows are "rated" shows - just a different rating system. Horses are competing for breed points and the chance to participate in the year end competitions or the big prestigious classes.

When I first started going to watch H/J shows I remember being appalled that "any" breed or even *gasp* GRADE horses could participate. What was up with THAT? I had to supply proof of breeding to show my QHs.

It's two different worlds, with different goals. There is nothing wrong with expressing curiosity or even some criticism.
I don't think that someone's opinion that some QHs were carrying their heads too low warrants a big emotional defense of QH shows and bashing of hunter riders.

I have taken my TBs to some local QH open fun type shows, just for the show atmosphere exposure and been bombarded with idiot questions/comments like "what do you want a horse that big for - he obviously will be clumsy" or "he must not be trained if he doesn't neck rein better than that" or even "TBs belong on the track and not ridden"
These comments were made while we were wandering around, well behaved at local open shows.

There are people in all disciplines that are totally ignorant of other disciplines and just assume that whatever is different must be inferior.

Expressing an opinion on this board opened up a discussion and let some QH riders explain what the original poster was looking at. At least it opens up some dialog and gives the person making the comments some additional information. If the opinion is still that she doesn't like it - SO WHAT?

Nothing wrong with that.

BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

InWhyCee
Jun. 17, 2002, 07:56 AM
I'm soooo relievd to hear that... as you may have heard, in the 80s I was creamed in EQ by a QH Congress Queen who asked me, after picking up her umpteenth blue ribbon, why it was so important to post on the INSIDE diagonal.

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

Mel0309
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:03 AM
Hey Melly, it's Smelly...
Those are great pictures of James!!
Sorry to see you weren't at the FPEA show. You would have kicked butt!! I may start showing in the fall.

Anyway, there are several horses that do both the A circuit hunters and the AQHA. For example Lynn Palm's stallion by Rugged Lark won a division at HITS Ocala (can't remember which one) and wins all the time at big AQHA shows.
At AQHA shows sometimes there are bad judges that place low-headed horses and sometimes there are good ones who will disqualify them.

Also there are some horses that do both western and hunter at the quarter horse shows but they are a lot more specialized now with the top hunter under saddle horses averaging 16'3 to 17 hands. Some are even 17'2... I've seen them!

As for diagonals. They are important in the Eq where the rider is being judged but how can you fault a horse if the rider is on the wrong diagonal in a hunter under saddle class where the horse is being judged?

Jun. 17, 2002, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mel0309:

Anyway, there are several horses that do both the A circuit hunters and the AQHA. For example Lynn Palm's stallion by Rugged Lark won a division at HITS Ocala (can't remember which one) and wins all the time at big AQHA shows.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Royal Lark! I love that horse! And I think he won the Pre-Green division at HITS. Very cool horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:39 AM
I once read an article in a "general interest" horse magazine where a "big time" breed trainer admitted that HUS horses in breed shows, QH, APP, APHA, are for the most part "incorrect" by open show standards, but "they are what they are" and very few aspire to "A" Hunter show competition, so they do their own thing, and "so what?"

I know from personal experience that my full color Appy kicked butt in Open Shows, but rarely got a ribbon on the flat in breed shows, except over fences, where he rarely got anythig below 1st!!! At age 19 (the horse was 19), having been retired from eventing and shown Open Hunters/Jumpers for a couple of years, I took him to his first breed show (other than our once a year foray to the Cow Palace in San Francisco) and he was Circuit Champion Jumper at a double point show, without ever having to jump off! Everyone else either took rails or went off course - this in classes up to 3'9".

My gripe is this: At breed shows, do what you want, but DON'T call it Hunters - or even as someone above said - "Hunter Under Saddle Horses" - whatever the heck that may be. Just call it "English Pleasure - Hunt Seat" and be done with it. Don't pretend that what you are exhibiting would be a competitive ride in open competition as a hunter or HUS. I have now quarrel with how a pleasure horse goes - Saddle Seat, Western, "English" whatever. Whole different thing from a real "Hunter."

There was an article a few years ago in COTH where someone addressed the distress that most of us are expressing over breed show HUS, and pointed out that in an "A" rated show, you can't show in HUS unless you also show in at least once class over fences at that show, and most people who actually JUMP (as many breed show HUS horses do NOT), don't want thir horses going in the customary breed show HUS posture. So, no threat to the open division.

I think it is very interesting that when I look at the National and World show results for these classes in the Appaloosa Journal (and I am sure it is the same in the QH Journal) what I see is this: Hunter Under Saddle (various age groups and classifications): An average of 20 to 40 horses PER CLASS. Hunters/Jumpers in over fences classes: 4 to 10 horses per class. 'Nuf said.

Sparky
Jun. 17, 2002, 09:13 AM
Not quite 'nuf said, Sandym. I'm looking at the 2000 program from the AQHA World show. There were 20 entries in the Open Jumping, 22 in the Jumior Working hunter (horses under 5 years old), 29 in the Green Working Hunter and 20 in the Senior Working Hunter. And this is at a show that you must qualify to enter. At Congress there can be over 100 in the over fences classes, which includes a $25,000 3'6" Hunter Classic. And here's an added bonus: the prize money in the Junior: $7,026.58; Senior: $6,387.80; Green, $9,262.31 and jumping, $6,387.80. This is addition to the fact that if your horse is Incentive Fund, each point earned is worth an average of $30. There are a great many more people attracted to these shows than you seem to be aware of. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 09:19 AM
I think in general the AQHA DOES do a better job promoting itself and its horses and offers great incentives and awards. I was looking at figures for the ApHC World and National shows (for which I have qualified in the past in over fences classes - never the on the flat!) and made an assumption that all other "restricted to predominantly western breed" shows were probably the same. One shouldn't make assumptions, I guess. Still - 20 horses? How does that compare to an open "A" rated H/J show? And I wonder if the horses that win over fences at the breed show are the same ones that win in HUS. Also, from my own experience at ApHC shows, the advertised height of the fences and the ACTUAL height of the fences is seldom the same. I had to protest that the 3'6" - 3'9" fences were set at barely 3 feet at one show!

Jumphigh83
Jun. 17, 2002, 09:26 AM
NOT breed bashing..training bashing..what is pretty OR natural about a horse dragging around on the forhand with a HUGE tail and a head hung out on a loooong neck nose dragging on the ground?? I have gotten banished from the pleasure horse BB because they WILL not engage in dialoge about it they simply shut down and name call. Horses ARE NOT born looking like that! NO baby I know trots or canters around the field in that position! That is my gripe! It is unnatural and in my opinion not pleasant to look at.. I OWN QHs so don't tell me I dont love the breed! I just dont like the "trendy" way they are presented in the ring..AND most of the HUS horses can't jump well since they are so locked up through the shoulder from too much rigging! So flame suit on but beware taht I am immune to it..(PS former top ten Congress hunter classic, so YES I have been there, done that)

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

DMK
Jun. 17, 2002, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:

My gripe is this: At breed shows, do what you want, but DON'T call it Hunters - or even as someone above said - "Hunter Under Saddle Horses" - whatever the heck that may be. Just call it "English Pleasure - Hunt Seat" and be done with it. Don't pretend that what you are exhibiting would be a competitive ride in open competition as a hunter or HUS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, fair enough, but what if the FOXHUNTERS actually demand that the hunters that show up at WEF or Devon could, let's say... hunt... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think it's a tad humorous to get upset over the fact that QHs may not go exactly the same as the ideal USAEq hunter, yet share the same class name, when those very same hunters are SO far from their original roots that they do not in any way resemble their namesake. I think if we took up that logic there just might be a few foxhunters saying we are the pot calling the kettle black. That is, if they didn't injure themselves while falling off their horses from laughing too hard!!


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Dragoon
Jun. 17, 2002, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:


Expressing an opinion on this board opened up a discussion and let some QH riders explain what the original poster was looking at. At least it opens up some dialog and gives the person making the comments some additional information. If the opinion is still that she doesn't like it - SO WHAT?

Nothing wrong with that.

BarbB

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, BarbB!! Your whole post was exactly what I want to say /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

I'm going to fumble this up, and it's not going to come out the way I want, so just bear with me /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ...

I think we keep losing the whole "discussion" part of this board....it just turns into a cat fight.
First of all, we've already done this whooooooole thread, many times before, and all it's gotten us is a lot of hurt feelings. Can't we discuss this without bashing QH and then turning around and calling all hunter riders snobs?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I ride "A" circuit hunters, and yes, the breed "hunters" (so they are called), are quite appalling to me. I don't agree with their interpretation of hunters, because hunters is what I've grown up riding. I'm not putting them down in any way - you guys have the right to be different, and I respect the AQHA's attempts to fix the english divisions. If you enjoy it and it doesn't hurt the horse, then I respect that (that's my attempt at being sincere! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )....just don't expect me go to Congress or local breed shows (where the big problems are) and enjoy myself.

QH's are a great breed. I generally like them for their versatility, personality, etc. But, I also think that the "Hunter under saddle" classes should be changed to "English Pleasure - Hunt Seat" or something along those lines. I've been mistaken for an Under Saddle rider many times, just because I said "hunter". Lest we forget that the accepted hunter rules lie in the USAEq (AHSA) rulebook!

Hunters are also a great discipline, no matter how many times people try to point out all the faults. Non-H/J people seem to know more faults than good aspects of the H/J world! How many times have I heard TB bashing from QH or other breed people? Not to mention the "you ride hunters, you must be a horrible rider" crap that's floating around events, breed shows, etc. I ride hunters - I have a warmblood, I do equitation, I have a grey jacket and wear my hair over my ears everytime I ride - SO WHAT!?
I think both sides need to get their heads out of their A$$es and accept one another for who they are.

Damn the torpedoes...Full speed ahead!!

[This message was edited by Dragoon aka Branagh on Jun. 17, 2002 at 01:19 PM.]

dcm
Jun. 17, 2002, 10:42 AM
Isn't the purpose of "breed" shows to judge based upon characteristics of that particular breed? The breed registries do not answer to USAEq in their standards. Why does no one say anything about Arab hunters? Talk about being way out there....

Most open stock type shows judge based upon AQHA standards, therefore that is what will place above all others regardless. If you want your horse to be judged according to USAEq standards, go to hunter/jumper shows and stay away from 4H/Open or English/Western shows.

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 10:55 AM
Actually, while I would not "bash" A-Circuit Hunters, I always thought that they should more properly be defined as "Show Hunters" as opposed to REAL Hunters. There are definitely some cross-overs in the working division- horses that actually hunt as well as being shown as hunters - but I imagine that few conformation horses are risked in the hunt field. Still - they do display a type - the "ideal type - of an idealized "hunter" which is something that I think the way of showing in breed shows debases.

It may be different now, but my understanding was that in the British Isles there used to be no "hunter" classes as we have them here in the U.S. "Hunter" classes were ONLY "Under Saddle" and were judged on conformation and type. However, to SHOW in those classes, the horse had to be qualified with an actual hunt. Those who wanted to compete with their hunters over fences did Hunter Trials. So, shall we have that requirement here?? (Might be difficult for those in areas where they may not be any recognized hunts, I guess). LOL

(As an aside, one year - back in the '70s to the best of my recollection - the Fall Horse Trials at Ram Tap in California simultaneously ran a hunter division. Some horses were cross-entered in the Training or Preliminary Horse Trials (3'3" and 3'6" respectively) and their cross-country was judged as both x-country AND "Hunters on the Outside Course." It was really funny watching people in full hunt gear tearing along over the cross-country fences. My trainer won the Open Hunter Championship and placed in the Preliminary horse trial - two for the price of one.) Now THERE was a HUNTER!

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:
What is it about people who show on the "A circuit" and particularly in the "hunters" that makes them look down their noses at any other horse people? Why do they feel the need to bash people who do things differently? Why do they think that their way is the only and best way? What gives them the right to judge other people, relative to themselves? Like No Great Mischief said, as long as they aren't hurting their horses, what is the harm?

And finally, WHO *%#$&^@ CARES IF THEY WEAR GPA'S OR SHOW IN RUST BREECHES??!!

Grow up and get a life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, I have been to TWO schooling shows (once on a leased horse and once on my old horse)and have never been to a rated of any kind. Not all hunters have the "holier-than-thou" attitude. I know I don't. I have ridden for a few years and ride around 6 horses a week hunters/jumpers/dressage and hopefully a little eventing soon. I don't like rust breeches or GPAs. Oh well I guess this wasn't directed at me anyway...

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Dragoon
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:28 AM
The term "show hunters" is fine with me, too /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I realize that the term "hunters" (referring to the show kind /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) has deviated from the hunt field, and yes, they are different. If you look at most field hunters today, chances are you are not going to find a $100,000 WB out there chasing hounds /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif . Maybe "working hunters" should be the field hunters registered with real hunts, not that that will ever happen /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ...

And welcome to the board, Cowgirl Up /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ! We're usually a happier bunch than this /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Damn the torpedoes...Full speed ahead!!

DMK
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
There are definitely some cross-overs in the working division- horses that actually hunt as well as being shown as hunters - but I imagine that few conformation horses are risked in the hunt field.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lord, I'd LOVE to meet them!! I imagine that most of the Big A hunters (you know, the ones we all try to emulate) have never so much as stepped a tootsie in the hunt field. Now the jumper ring is a different story. I can think of at least 2 Devon top 6 finishers that had a career there before the WH division!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Still - they do display a type - the "ideal type - of an idealized "hunter" which is something that I think the way of showing in breed shows debases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not from what I can tell every time we get into one of those charming "the way they used to go" discussions (almost as much fun as this QH discussion). OK, I grant you they are still braided, but even that is more for style than functionality. What field hunter spends all that time trying to get 38 braids in?

I dunno, the way I see it (probably a 100% unique and bizarre view, I grant you) is that we have bastardized the hunter so it no longer resembles the creature it was based off of in any shape or form. So who cares if the AQHA has a hunter flat class that does exactly the same thing (bastardizes the original purpose), they just bastardized it differently than "us" - it doesn't even matter why (different conformation, different requirements for judges, whatever). Best as I can tell, Arabians sure don't resemble the original, Saddlebreds and Walkers sure aren't carrying farmers around the plantations, Shetlands aren't hauling coal out of the mines, and Apps aren't the warrior horses of the Nez Pierce. Times change, our requirements change, and we make sure our horses change right along with them. That doesn't make it any more wrong today than when the English breeders in the 1700's started crossing their heavier English mares with those pesky arabs, although I bet there was a contingent whipping out their parchment paper and quills and castigating the heathens to one and all... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

thecowboyway
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:42 AM
Bravo DMK, bravo!!

Lonny'sMom
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:45 AM
I showed my QH on the QH circuit - the real AQHA circuit, not the open stuff mentioned in some of the posts, and not the "small QH" showes either. We showed at Congress, ECCS, New England QH, etc. The only show we failed to be Circuit Champion at was Congress, my horse got very sick there and we had to haul him home (but thats another whole long story). This same horse, I now show at some rated and open hunter shows (strictly hunter, no western classes - just so I am clear here and there is no confusion). Funny thing, we are either Champion or Reserve in our division every time out. My horse is 16.1 hands, has a beautiful sweeping stride, and catches the judges eye every time.

The Quarter Horse breed originated from the Quarter Racing Horse. Early settlers (in VA I belive) wanted a handy horse that they could use on their farms and then race for fun when the work was over. The "Quarter" part of the name came from the quarter of a mile that they were raced over, which BTW is still the QH racing standard of today.

Today QH's are bred to specialize in a specific event. Most of them (not all) are either shown English or Western, a few are shown in both. QH's are used in nearly every horse sport there is from racing to show jumping (Aces and Spades), cattle work, pleasure riding, and hunters.

I enjoyed showing on the QH circuit, it was a lot of fun and the people were really nice. Everywhere my husband and I went we were greeted with a warm welcome. I thought this was pretty special since I do not show with a BNT, do all my own training and prep work.

Now for those of you who think all QH Queens don't have a clue about diagnols, in Equitation (this is a pattern class BTW and on the flat) you are not only marked down for being on the incorrect diagnol, but are marked down if you do not automatically pick up the correct diagnol and have to switch! Plus if you have to LOOK for your diagnol and not FEEL for it, you may as well kiss any chance of winning good bye!

Yeah, there are some not so great QH judges out there. But honestly, can you all say that every hunter judge that you have shown under has been tops? There are good and bad judges out there in every discipline.

~Lara

http://hometown.aol.com/larajerry/myhomepage/profile.html

InWhyCee
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:48 AM
Now I'm going Off-Topic... But, if you've ever read any books on classical dressage, or travelled to a country where classical dressage is practiced, you'd know this was never intended to be a key to a "winning" dressage ride. Alas, there are "perversions" in every type of riding...

PS: One of the loveliest, tallest, smoothest hunters I ever rode was a registered QH. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
_______

"It is by no means the privilege of the rider to part with his horse solely by his own will." -- Alois Podhajsky

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

FairWeather
Jun. 17, 2002, 11:58 AM
but when LisaMarie8 and I went to Frying Pan last week we stopped and watched the 'hunter' class at an AQHA show. In the middle of a dozen or so people I dared Lisa to break out the Hairbrush and start vigorously brushing Ozzy's tail.

We chickened out. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Always,
FairWeather
""Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 12:01 PM
Hee,hee.... well, my first Appy, except for the fact that he was a solid 15.3+, would have looked familiar to any Nez Perce - he was a straight line-bred Toby horse, full color. He never would have made a conformation hunter, but he hunted, showed hunters at the "B" level (and won!) in open shows, near Roman nose and all. Unlike most historic Apps, he did have a nice full tail. But I looked once in a book with 19th Century photos of Nez Perce horses, and damned if one didn't look like his twin. Now, what my horse did NOT look like, was a modern, showing pseudo-Appy that is 15/16th QH! (Nothing wrong with QHs, but when a horse's pedigree is 7/8th QH, 1/8th Appy and it has no color, how can it be an Appy? Is a 3/4 Shire 1/4 Arab an Arabian? Sorry - off on my pet peeve).

Anyhoo, I still think calling the QH flat classes English Pleasure - Hunt Seat would be acceptable to just about anyone. It's when you have the class and call it "Hunter Under Saddle," but most horses in it don't jump, and there is an AHSA (whoops, USA Eq.) STANDARD for hunter type (even if conformation hunters may be regarded as "sissies" compared to true field hunters), that H/J people start looking horrified. Besides, many AQHA appendix horses look perfect hunter types (why not? they are 50% or more TB), but STILL move in the WP manner - just faster!)

As for what the AQHA (or ApHC and APHA - since they're pretty much the same) standard IS: Yup, they are NOT supposed to be peanut rollers, but guess what: I've been to several QH and ApHC shows recently, and the judges STILL place first the WP horses in the HUS classes, and STILL place higher the horses that move with their heads so low that they violate the "not to move for more than X# of strides with the ears lower than the withers" rule that was supposdly implemented. I attended an AQHA show here in California right after that rule had been passed, and the judges, following the rule, ELIMINATED 75% of the horses is both WP AND HUS. The exhibitors were rabid after that, and now when I occasionally go to watch a breed show, I find the majority are still peanut rollers.

Maybe it's different outside California, but that's what I see out here. Or maybe I'm just going to watch the wrong shows. I'd sure like to believe it isn't like that.

Imaginagent
Jun. 17, 2002, 12:02 PM
Thanks again to DMK.

Quarter horses, as said, are quite tall now for the hunt seat division. As I have heard said before, don't even bother showing if your horse isn't 16.2 or more. Granted, these horses have TB in them, but thank makes them all the more suitable for hunters. And any more, most QH riders do not cross over to the western events if they have a great hunt seat horse, it would ruin the big, pretty trot. But horse breeds do evolve, just as fashion and other things. Show jumping was not always done as it is now and hunters did use to have to jump in big open fields for their classes, not little rings.

To the person who said that the QH can't trot big, did you see my picture??

To Smelly, if you read again.....I was at the show for the meeting, but had no money to show this weekend. Will probably show September. I will try to talk to you later.

Proud new member of the Thoroughbred Clique

D.O.T.
Jun. 17, 2002, 12:47 PM
As someone who has won an AQHA youth world championship over fences and is showing with modest success in Large Juniors this year here's my 2 cents worth. If you look at the AQHA class descriptions for Working Hunter classes they really are not that different from "Hunter" standards. The real problem as I see it with QH breed showing working hunters is that the standards change with almost every judge...most wouldn't know a working hunter if it sat on them, and don't get me going on Equitation Over Fences.
If you look at the Big Hunter Classics at Congress and Florida (the Hadfield Classic) they are almost always considered "Open" hunter classes judged by AHSA judges. That in and of itself should tell you something.

DMK
Jun. 17, 2002, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
But in my opinion, it is not really "quality" movement because when the horses heads are equal to their withers or below, they really do not use their hind ends. It is just their front end moving out, without the power of their hind. Just my 2 cents again..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not to imply in any way that every horse traveling with his head below the withers is engaging his back end, but before I were to make a statement about how they cannot be using their hind ends if their head is below the withers, I would do a little research on the term "long and low" and what use it has in training a really top notch hunter and dressage horse to use their back end...


Good trainers, regardless of discipline, make sure their horse engages behind.


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Just Wondering
Jun. 17, 2002, 01:15 PM
[name deleted] - pretty strong words for someone that was just marketing a stock horse as a hunter.

[This message was edited by Erin on Jun. 18, 2002 at 08:46 AM.]

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 01:18 PM
When I showed in the breed division at the Grand National Horse Show at the Cow Palace from 1981 through 1990, for a couple of years they had the regular open show hunter/jumper judge judge the Appy English classes and it was great! Then they reverted to Appaloosa judges and it stunk.

I once was asked to clerk for a cowboy-hatted judge at a breed show, and he was counting ticks and giving numerical "faults" in hunters, while completely ignoring striding, horses that chipped in or stood off too far, went hollow etc. - he judged it like jumpers, EXCEPT - one horse that did an otherwise perfect hunter round (pace, striding, tight knees, nice round style) but missed a lead, he placed behind a horse that did the course at a jump-off pace, chipped in over and over, and went completely hollow, but by D**N, it got its changes! ROFLOL

I think that if breed show judges were properly educated re hunters, the problem would disappear. The AQHA, APHA and ApHC produce plenty of perfectly nice horses with hunter-like conformation and quality of movement, but in most cases, you'd never know it because they conform to the likes of uneducated judges in order to win.

Similarly, when a (at the time) AHSA Dressage Judge placed high the most correct horses in Dressage Suitability at the Nationals/Worlds, the regular circuit exhibitors were miffed and complained, and first ApHC changed the judges to Appy judges, who seem to think one seminar teaches them all they need to know about sport horse breeding (if they even get that much education on the subject!), then changed the entire class to "Hunter in Hand" - which they don't judge much more correctly than they did Dressage Suitability!

Griz
Jun. 17, 2002, 01:34 PM
Do YOU show QH? Do you SHOW at all? From what I've gathered, you're more into dealing than showing. I agree with the 'peanut rollers' and the 4-beat canter - it looks unnatural.

"I was MORTIFIED!! These people seemed to have just dressed their western horses up in english attire for the day and called it a hunter." Sorry, but not all of us ride/show English as a vocation. But at least we TRY.

D.O.T.
Jun. 17, 2002, 01:49 PM
AQHA will often have what they call split/combined shows which are essentially two shows even though you will show in one working hunter class, it's judged by two judges. I've been at fairly big QH shows where nine of the top pinnings will be different for each judge. It starts to feel like a crap shoot...what does this judge want etc. At the hunter shows it seems like whenever I put in a good go I get rewarded. Even with my appendix QH showing against the large junior warmbloods.

hedgehog
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and riders who cant even be called riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As opposed to the "real" hunter riders who go about perched on their horse and eat dirt/splinters if the horse bobbles at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

*In Your Dreams*
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As opposed to the "real" hunter riders who go about perched on their horse and eat dirt/splinters if the horse bobbles at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least real hunter riders can hold their reins correctly and do not have their hands in their crotch. Also, I do not think QH people that have peanut pushers would stay on very long if their horses tripped because the horse has NO balence with its head like that. Just My Humble Opinion.

**~~Andrea,and In Your Dreams~~**
Follow Your Dreams...
Except the one where your in school in your underwear.

"Horse Sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people." - W.C Feilds

"Why does it take a lifetime to learn to live a lifetime?"

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one and they all stink.

Proud Member Of The Abercrombie and Fitch Clique, aka the IGETCRABBY and B*tch Clique.

Also A Follower Of:
The Baby Greenie Support Group!

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hedgehog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and riders who cant even be called riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As opposed to the "real" hunter riders who go about perched on their horse and eat dirt/splinters if the horse bobbles at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what exactly do you mean by that? I hope you were joking...

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Sandy M
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:25 PM
I once took my "greener than grass" young horse to a breed show (against my better judgment, since I had previously sworn I would not do breed shows until my horse was solid at 3'6" and I would do only over fence classes). I was working the show and hated to leave him home alone, as it were.

I entered just the 2'6" hunters and novice HH. He was great in the 2'6" hunters, but lost to a horse that did it as though it were a timed event (both judges). In hunter hack, he was a doll on the flat - but no peanut roller - just the same kind of frame I would show in in an open show. The judge judges asked - in NOVICE - that we do the fences, comes across the diagonal, doing a flying change in the middle of the arena, and then the usual halt, back up, drop the reins. A flying change??? Yeah, he did 'em over fences, but in a straight line - he was barely 5, hadn't even been under saddle until he was 4-one-half. I did a trot change, sort of one-and one-half trot steps. One judge left me unplaced - the other placed me SECOND. There is no logic among most of the breed show judges, that I can tell, and that's after having owned Appies for 25 years, and shown them OPEN successfuly most of the time. Every time I venture into the breed show venue, showing in the same classes in which I win in open shows, I'm lucky to get a ribbon. After that experience, I stuck to hunters, then eventually, dressage.

(I've always wondered whether the one judge MISSED the trot steps and thought I DID a flying change? ROFLOL)

*In Your Dreams*
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Lets think about this.. "Peanut pushing" and the "4-beat lope" makes a horse look like its broken. Who really wants to show a perfectly good horse and screw it up by training it to do all these pointless things? Who made them god to decide.. "hey your horse has to do exactly what I say to win" .. not only are judges like that, but they find that the riders along with their horses in the class are inferior to them.. when most of them are retired and don't even ride anymore.
Kristy-Leigh Bob marie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely Kris! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

**~~Andrea,and In Your Dreams~~**
Follow Your Dreams...
Except the one where your in school in your underwear.

"Horse Sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people." - W.C Feilds

"Why does it take a lifetime to learn to live a lifetime?"

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one and they all stink.

Proud Member Of The Abercrombie and Fitch Clique, aka the IGETCRABBY and B*tch Clique.

Also A Follower Of:
The Baby Greenie Support Group!

Heineken
Jun. 17, 2002, 02:33 PM
Just my two cents but you get talented, well schooled and well cared for horses on BOTH circuits. You get people who are going to "pretend" to know what they are doing on both circuits too, the hunters use chanbones etc, the AQHA people use draw reins...BOTH ARE ARTIFICIAL WAYS TO TEACH A HORSE TO DROP ITS POLL!!! And QH can do both circuits well, as long as the AQHA judges have been taught to judge a jumping class...

Baby horse has arrived and I already have a vet bill for stitches....

elizabeth
Jun. 17, 2002, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

OK, fair enough, but what if the FOXHUNTERS actually demand that the hunters that show up at WEF or Devon could, let's say... hunt... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like dibs on the seat next to you at Devon/Harrisburg. Let's get real close to the ring so we can see close-up how the Adult Hunters react when the hounds are let loose in the ring as the adults are merrily doing Side-Diagonal-Side-Diagonal!!

hoodoo
Jun. 17, 2002, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> - pretty strong words for someone that was just marketing a stock horse as a hunter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh? Stock horse? Hunter? Huh??
Even if I did market a "stock" horse as a hunter (Which I never have) what the @$*% does that have to do with the different way that AQHA people ride???

This is the single reason I will NEVER do hunters again. This thread is insane. So what. I was MORTIFIED at the fact that these riders held the reins so that their pinkies were up, reins ten miles too long, and basically rode western. I didn't like it. Shoot me.

And yes, I do show. And my first hunter was a quarter horse who did very well, and did not drag his nose on the ground or have a four beat canter. As far as I know, he is still showing on the A circuit. I would buy a QH in a heartbeat if the right one came along. However, I would buy well before they were trained the way I saw these horses go. I actually saw a beautiful buckskin walking around before the show and couldn't wait to see him go--I have always wanted a buckskin--when I saw how he went, with no impulsion, nose to the ground, looking....well...depressed...I decided not to go ask about the horse. It has NOTHING to do with the horse. Its just a whole different thing.

And am I a dealer?? why because I have helped friends sell horses before?? I think not.

[This message was edited by hoodoo on Jun. 17, 2002 at 07:18 PM.]

brilyntrip
Jun. 17, 2002, 04:27 PM
is there a paint website that tells you about there shows etc ?

DMK
Jun. 17, 2002, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
You will not see one horse truly using its back end. Long and low is different then peanut pushing.

Kristy-Leigh Bob marie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree, but that ain't what you said.

And I have seen top notch trainers who can and do require engagement in their horses, and didn't miss a beat when the peanut roller rule came about. And really, just look at the trot picture that Imagineagent posted. Can you honestly tell me that horse isn't driving from his hind end?

Now I will say the NEXT thing the AQHA needs to work on is the jope, but they seem to work a little harder at cleaning their judging house than other horse show associations...


Elizabeth - I'll save you a seat - should be good for some grins!


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

no_stirrups
Jun. 17, 2002, 07:23 PM
I stayed a few years with on foot in the hunter ring and one in the aqha "show pen" early this year I chose to focus entirly on the hunters. My horse was registered, but he realy didn't fit in with the penut rollers. I am still in contact with some qh people and its funny to talk to them. I went to a qh show the other weekend to watch and they had me designing the courses for their "hunters", because the judge didn't know a cross rail from an oxer. He asked me why they circled before the first fence and if he should mark them down /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I guess its not their fault, how many of use could take our hunters western pleasure? but then again most h/j people I have met are smart enough not to try! (imagine, an off the track tb wissing around a western pleasure class! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Palomino19
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and some people would switch between hunters and western and their poor horses didn't now whether to trot, jog, canter or lope!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a break! Oh no, not a horse that is trained in more than one discipline! My horse goes english and western, cry me a river, he's surely abused. Someone call the ASPCA /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Maybe the horses are well trained and can distinguish between the aids of a western ride versus and english ride, eh?

And why shouldn't they call their classes HUS? Since when did the USA Eq definition of "hunter" become the rule...Why must all interpretations of what makes a hunter match the "A" show's opinions? Honestly, let's leave the breed bashing to your tack room gossip /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Jess

*`*`*

"I've this creeping
suspicion that things here are not as they seem..."

*In Your Dreams*
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess its not their fault, how many of use could take our hunters western pleasure? but then again most h/j people I have met are smart enough not to try! (imagine, an off the track tb wissing around a western pleasure class! ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already been done! You should have seen the stares. But my horse was taught that when I drop the reins he streches, so he did peanut push, but at a slightly uneven fast pace! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In Conclusion, this discussion has turned into a huge pointless fight as mentioned before. I am done posting. I hope judges figure out this is not a great way of going, and I hope riders will stop presenting these horses to the judge so the judge will be forced to pick from real hunters.

I wonder who that was Kristy?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Love Always /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**~~Andrea,and In Your Dreams~~**
Follow Your Dreams...
Except the one where your in school in your underwear.

"Horse Sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people." - W.C Feilds

"Why does it take a lifetime to learn to live a lifetime?"

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one and they all stink.

Proud Member Of The Abercrombie and Fitch Clique, aka the IGETCRABBY and B*tch Clique.

Also A Follower Of:
The Baby Greenie Support Group!

Palomino19
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
A good friend of mine competed at a local show about a month ago.. she got beat out by an arab and a peanut pushing little quarter horse who was a complete ground sniffer.. well.. more like nose to ground dragging.. it was almost like he was trying to stick his head low enough that he could see his a.ss. Anyway.. her horse as usual did wonderful.. the only reason that she didn't win.. even with all the numerous faults that the other two.. along with the rest of the horses placing behind her.. was because the judge was a Western Pleasure QH judge <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Showing is totally subjective and sour grapes are also quite unbecomming...A little cheese with your whine?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the fact that QH's look like cows in english tack <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So that's why my horse "moo"s when I ride him? Good thing I hang out here to learn these valuable tips...

*`*`*

"I've this creeping
suspicion that things here are not as they seem..."

Jun. 17, 2002, 08:14 PM
was because the judge was a Western Pleasure QH judge.. and her horse is not a quarter horse.. so he favored his own kind.. and an arab over her horse.. It was terrible..

Hm...that's odd. What do you honestly expect from a QH judge? That's what they are used to, and obviously prefer. The QHs. Would a world champion Arab hunter expect to go into the ring at WEF, or HITs, and expect to win? No! So why should 'A' circuit people??? And what's wrong with Arabs? Why is it 'terrible' that an Arab beat her horse?

Back onto my subject.. are some of us going to make our horses do a certain event and dress in a certain tack.. make them look and act a certain way.. dropping their heads to the ground to look broken, unloved, and depressed?

What about the over worked hunters, and eq.horses on the 'A' circuit? The drugs? Abused horses are on every single circuit, you aren't going to find one without it. It sucks, but unfortunatly, that's the way it is, until everyone stops. And Unloved? Um...Maybe you haven't been to a TOP QH barn, but they are hardly 'UNLOVED'. Far, Far From it! And depressed? Um....Don't think so.

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

Jun. 17, 2002, 08:17 PM
And COWS IN ENGLISH TACK???? Um...Maybe you need a little visit to Congress, or World. Maybe it's just me, but those Working Hunters doing up to 3'9 sure don't look like cows to me....

If that's how cows do move and jump, Heck! Forget the horses, I'll get a cow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

no_stirrups
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:18 PM
QH's that show western look out of place in hunter tack, as most warmbloods would look out of place in western tack. However there are plenty of qh's on the hunter circit that fit right in!

so when you notice the horse on the hunter circit mooing you'll be able to tell its a qh, cuz that'll be about the only way to tell him apart from the rest!

It is scientificly impossible for a bumble bee to fly... guess no one told the bumble bee

Jun. 17, 2002, 08:29 PM
Hmmm...sounds to me the judge knew how to judge...however, maybe he judged differently then your friend was used to.

And QHs should stick to what they are supposed to do? Ok...so all the Warmbloods will stick to pulling carriages and plows, and the TBs will stick to racing...then what will we ride???

(Ahh! I know I am just feeding into this argument! I can't help it, these posts that sounds so ignorant just really tick me off /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif But it's all good /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:34 PM
um, moderators /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~*Grand Prix schoolmaster = $250,000.....
*15 yrs training with the world's top trainers = $40,000.....
*Top hat and tails = $1000.....
*The final salute after completing your first Grand Prix test = PRICELESS.~ (copyright me!)

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palomino19:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and some people would switch between hunters and western and their poor horses didn't now whether to trot, jog, canter or lope!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a break! Oh no, not a horse that is trained in more than one discipline! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the people I saw at a particular "backyard-ish show." Not all the horses (trianed in more than one discipline) had anything qrong with the way they moved, their gaits, etc. I'm sorry if I offended you; it wasn't my intent.

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Little Indian
Jun. 17, 2002, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
besides the fact that QH's look like cows in english tack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'd like you to say that about my two Quarter Horses. :-/ My big old foundation looks like a warmblood with english tack on, and Viper, well...he's very english and the only time there has been a western saddle on him was when I was to lazy to carry an old one up for a paint sale horse to be tried with...he was more like the trasportation. IF i could post a picture of my registerd AMERICAN QUARTER HORSE under saddle I think you would mistake him for a purebred thoroughbred... but hey...anybody want to help me and post a picture for me? IM me at roxypony or e-mail me at roxypony2@aol.com now you'd have to tell me if you'd think he was a thoroughbred if I hadn't said he was QH...but hey, whatever floats /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ximmer
Jun. 17, 2002, 10:27 PM
I rode a palomino quarter horse at a couple of A hunter shows and placed really well (above about 30 kids on big bays). He was beautiful and looked stunning in english tack. He had been a western horse, but just loved making the switch to hunters. He was a naturally forward little horse with a gorgeous stride. He also loved to jump. I miss that horse!!!!

I would have bought a QH in a heartbeat if I had found the right one. I think they are an incredibly versatile breed.

ximmer

dcm
Jun. 18, 2002, 05:41 AM
I think someone is stirring the pot here.

Moderators? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 05:49 AM
The moderators would appreciate it if you would EMAIL us when something gets out of hand... we can't read everything, y'know. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That said... grow up, kiddies. If the sniping and name-calling continues, this thread is headed to padlock city...

FairWeather
Jun. 18, 2002, 06:00 AM
The claws dears--put them away! Who woulda thunk--a QH thread went vicious?

Always,
FairWeather
""Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

thecowboyway
Jun. 18, 2002, 06:06 AM
I've shown "regular hunters" all my life, I switched to the QH circut 3 years ago when a lovely horse fell into my lap and I figured a horse show was a horse show. Alot of what I've seen has been hard to "get", the hunter under saddle horses for one, what strictly Qh people consider a good jumper to be another. Its been a learning experience all around, I've learned ways to get one quiet without riding them into the ground or medicating, how to loose with some grace.(because most of the judges are very uneducated in what a hunter/equitation should be)All that being said I'don't think I'll ever switch back full time.I went to Vermont last year had a blast,got great prizes, but it was just like I remembered it and I'm not sure thats all good either. My point is the QH circut is what it is, sure you'll see some bizarre things but what horse show do you go to you don't see something that makes you laugh or shrug your shoulders in disbelief? There is as much positive as negative on the QH circut its all in where you look.

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 06:27 AM
Cowgirl - just a little friendly advice...

I think I would lay up on the QH's look like cows under English tack. Totally aside from the fact I doubt you or anyone else has SEEN a cow in English tack (this does beg the question regarding origination of the reference, but I digress)... Anyway, I suspect we may chase Gopher out of job-imposed lurkdom /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif to virtually smack you silly while defending her beloved Wrapped in Red. You know him of course. He was one of those cow-like QHs that left the AQHA circuit and went on to be HOTY in the AHSA (1st years no less).

But mostly I would suggest stopping for no other reason than we can see you eating your shoe leather... surely you can taste it by now? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Ghazzu
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Cowgirl - just a little friendly advice...

I think I would lay up on the QH's look like cows under English tack. Totally aside from the fact I doubt you or anyone else has SEEN a cow in English tack *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not quite a cow, but somewhere I have a picture of an Englishman in tweed jumping a Hereford bull over a brick wall in English tack...I'll have to see if I can find it.

Jennasis
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:38 AM
Oh my! So racism DOES exist in the world of equestrian....sad really.

Narrowminded....really narrowminded.

Josie
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:48 AM
RandomTexas Where did you see 3'9" fences at a QH show??? I have been to alot including the Congress and have friends that show the circuit and they also have never seen a 3'9" track! The last time we went to the Congress I don't even recall a 3'6" course except maybe the Millers Classic which was judged by an AHSA judge.

dcm
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Cowgirl - just a little friendly advice...

I think I would lay up on the QH's look like cows under English tack. Totally aside from the fact I doubt you or anyone else has SEEN a cow in English tack *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not quite a cow, but somewhere I have a picture of an Englishman in tweed jumping a Hereford bull over a brick wall in English tack...I'll have to see if I can find it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There used to be a steer ridden in western tack every year in the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo parade. Not the same thing, I know, but closely related. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Sandy M
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:53 AM
Y'know, not liking or dissing the non-hunter style that seems to be preferred by QH judges in HUS classes doesn't mean one has to insult QHs as a breed.

For all that I don't like what I see of HUS at breed shows, I have rarely seen an extreme stock-horse type QH in HUS classes: They may go like WP horses under english tack, but even in WP seeing an extreme bulldog type QH is not that common.

No need to attack the breed just because one finds a style of showing or judging unattractive. One can point out extremists in training in any breed, and while one could talk about tying horses heads up high for hours to get them to carry it low, one could equally talk about soring TWH, gingering ASBs, etc., but I think the majority of AQHA exhibitors are doing their best and are not abusive to their horses... they just have adopted a style of showing that most H/J people would deem "incorrect" vis-a-vis true hunters, but that doesn't mean there is anyting wrong with the BREED. Enough of this "cow" stuff. Geesh.\

As I said before, if they'd just call it "English Pleasure - Hunt Seat" I think most people would not criticize as much.

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 18, 2002, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I think I would lay up on the QH's look like cows under English tack. Totally aside from the fact I doubt you or anyone else has SEEN a cow in English tack *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


hehe actually, I HAVE seen a cow under English tack, in a jumping class, no less. There is NO resemblence to QHs. It was quite amusing though /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 08:15 AM
The Bill of Rights are a wonderful thing... and while you may have the right to insult an entire breed (not here necessarily, but in general), you will probably find that it won't help you accomplish anything.

It IS possible to constructively criticize the judging at AQHA shows without casting aspersions on QHs as a whole, which is what you have done with your "cow" comments. And people are perfectly within THEIR rights to ask you to knock it off.

BB Rule #1: Be nice, be polite, be respectful.

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 08:39 AM
Ghazzu, I was going to say shush, you are ruining my fun, but then I thought let's post some pictures and have a contest, and see who can identify the cow, steer, QH or bull, as it were. But then I saw that CraZ4horses already tipped her hat and indicated she had passed the test, so it wouldn't be fair for the rest of us, what with her having all that insider knowledge and what not. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin - do you think we need a "beating head on wall" graemlin? I bet you do!

cowgirl, if it wasn't beyond a moot point, I'd mention that I didn't say you had not seen cow in english tack. But as I said, it hardly bears mentioning. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

(sorry Erin, I was genetically incapable of not writing that last paragraph... I'll stop now. Unless I can't of course. Tough to say when the medication will kick in)


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:

#3 Would you be so kind as to telling me what I was trying to accomplish..?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would hope you were attempting to foster change... although I suppose it's entirely possible that you are just ranting and trying to piss people off. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If it's the former, my original point still stands -- you won't get far if all you do is toss insults around.

If it's the latter, well... that explains a whole lot. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dcm
Jun. 18, 2002, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
I'm a leader, debater, and hater. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh, the last is obvious, but I doubt the first two. I think you provoke more by your words than debate.

Its too bad you could not be more of a constructive commentator.

****^-^****
Don't ask me, I'm just the mom!

~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~

If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Hmm.. well then.. I guess someone doesn't understand what a retorical question is then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope... someone understands, but is trying to make a point. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

See, we have a name for people around here who only post to piss people off... they're called trolls. Trolls get booted off the BB and are not allowed to post.

Soooo... I suggest you not post until you hightail it to a RiteAid and get your refills. Because if all you're trying to do is piss people off, your posting privileges will be removed.

If you want to participate in constructive discussions, by all means, do so. But if you keep posting in this manner, you're outta here.

Ah... it's good to be Chief Cat Herder. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sparky
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:05 AM
I've seen this before here. Cowgirl, you sound like a bright young person (with no self-image problems...I read your profile!), who could add a lot here, and I would seriously ask you to take some direction from Erin, who is the best moderator on any bb, and the "more seasoned" folks who contribute to this bb. While it's admirable that you have strong views to share, you might also learn something /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jennasis
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:07 AM
Suuuuuuuuuuure...it must be the ADD talking. Sounds like a cop-out.

Just remember folks...she's just a kid, and doesn't know any better. She is entitled to her opinion as we are to ours.

So how 'bout those Mets!! Some weather we're having here....read any good books lately? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hoodoo
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:18 AM
I have heard of it, but never believed it to be true. If someone could find a picture, I would be thrilled!! I absolutely love cows, and WILL have a bunch someday--To learn I can ride one!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FairWeather
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:23 AM
of someone jumping a cow through a ring of fire in english tack. It was the CD cover for some no-name band that was sent to me along with about a hundred other no-name and 'one time only' bands.

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hoodoo:
I have heard of it, but never believed it to be true. If someone could find a picture, I would be thrilled!! I absolutely love cows, and WILL have a bunch someday--To learn I can ride one!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would LOVE to see a cow go cross-country!

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
I'll try to be better about peoples feelings and such when I post.. although that is hard for me.. I'll try the best that I can. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all anyone was asking.

On the cows... I KNOW the picture Ghazzu is talking about was posted here at one point, but I can't turn it up in a search, darnit. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:40 AM
Fairweather, I really think you must post it!!!

Sleepy - you weren't kidding about that profile, where you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Makes me think of some classic Faulkner (or Shakespeare, really) - All sound and fury... signifying?

But I agree, obviously cowgirl is young (amazing the restraint the BB has shown regarding grammar, sentence structure, etc. - the grammar nazis must be elsewhere today! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). But basic politeness should be reinforced from childhood, even if it doesn't seem to help a lot. Who knows, maybe some other errant young 'un will read the thread and think "damn, is that how I want to go through life?" Either that, or they will elect her their leader. Come to think of it, the latter is a terrifying possibility!!!


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Queen Kiwi
Jun. 18, 2002, 09:48 AM
Yes, this is my reg`d Quarter Horse.

She shows Hunter/Dressage and does amazing. She can also do western.

Can someone tell me where the cow part of her is, since I cannot find it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


And, not all QH`s go with their heads in the dirt, and 4 beat in the lope.
I took my other QH to a show. Went in 2 english classes. Placed well in both. 5 Minutes later, I was in the ring again but with western tack. All I did was slow him down slightly and he won every class.

But, I must say this thread was quite amusing, thanks for the laughs! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Gotta Love Those Chestnut Mares With Lots Of Chrome /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Queen Kiwi on Jun. 18, 2002 at 01:03 PM.]

Sparky
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:00 AM
He is cute--how do we get a ticket for this raffle?!

Sparky
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:01 AM
Did you just call me SLEEPY???! I am...but how did you know? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:07 AM
Sleepy, Sparky... ya know, they both start with an "S" and ended in a "y" so that was pretty good for me... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But by some freak of nature I actually know that Sleepy is in NC and Sparky is in MN. Sad, huh? Not the living in NC or MN part (I will reserve comment on a state that has ice fishing as their year 'round state hobby though /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), but that I know such things. Life. Get one... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

Sparky
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:20 AM
You are too funny, as well as being one of the "more seasoned" members to which I was referring, and whose posts I respect a great deal
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sleepy Sparky

Sleepy
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:28 AM
UMMM, I have been mentioned FOUR times on this thread and I haven't even posted on it because I was trying to stay out of it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But, I've got to ask. Is that cute paint really being raffled off at the State 4-H show? When's the drawing? I may just have to buy a ticket. I always wanted a paint. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Tell Bob, Robin and Kim that Margaret says Hi!

suzy
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:33 AM
I've been looking all over for the BEST picture that someone emailed me. This is not a joke - it was of Paul Schockemoehle (yea, so I butchered the name) riding a cow over a jump. Best of all the cow has the most beauteous flowered thing on its head. I'll keep looking; it's worth it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:36 AM
Yes! That's the picture I was talking about! It's been posted on the BB before, but I can't find it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sleepy
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:39 AM
I don't know why you guys couldn't fine this picture.

Cow jump (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic/s/691099205/a/ga/ul/7953089884/showjumpcow.jpg)

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:41 AM
YAY SLEEPY!

[This message was edited by Erin on Jun. 18, 2002 at 01:54 PM.]

rileyt
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:46 AM
This has got to be a joke, right?

Miss 14-year-old-ADD-debate-team-4-H-judge?

um....

Where is Sea Urchin? Moesha? This would be so like one of those two to create someone as totally ignorant as this fictional girl. A fighter huh? oooooooohhhh. Well then I'd better just creep back in my corner and quake in my boots some more.

I thought there was a rule about horse show judges? They had to be educated at least through 3rd grade and know how to spell well enough to write basic comments like "good" on the scorecard?

C'mon Erin... this has GOT to be some trolling alter.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:54 AM
RileyT, let it be... the troll issue has been addressed.

Horsesense
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:58 AM
Now that you mention it, she sounds like one of those Jerry Springer girls -- e.g., I beat up my mother and everyone at school and I'm only 14 and everyone thinks I'm 30 and you can't make me stop and I don't have to be polite or a decent human being because its not my fault that my prescription ran out. nothing personal, of course.

suzy
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:00 AM
Sleepy, thanks for finding and posting that picture. Such a beauteous creature, is she not? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:01 AM
Ohmigod!! it looks JUST like a Quarter Horse!!!!!

DMK smacks herself upside the head and wonders how she could have been SO blind...

Actually, Sleepy, this entire thread was an intricately planned, well thought out plot to get you to post in spite of yourself...

We are pretty good, aren't we?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rileyt - I promise you, you need to stop - this one is way too easy to wind up! Honestly, I think it may have been since the early days of standing martingales, ear bunnies and draw reins since the fur could fly this quickly...

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:08 AM
Cowgirl, knock off the language. Putting a period in there does not make it okay. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also, the Jerry Springer bravado's gotta go too. Let the moderators do their jobs.

And PLEASE shorten your signature! See the thread in Off Course...

Erin
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:12 AM
Well, I can delete your posts altogether, if that would suit you better.

suzy
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:18 AM
DMK, please. Let me smack you upside the head. It IS a Quarter Horse! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Backstage
Jun. 18, 2002, 11:40 AM
I repeat I am not saying anything offensive...but this thread has got to be the funniest thing I have read this week! I can't stop laughing (that may be the lack of sleep, though)...and I love that cow...my dad's always telling me I need to be exposed to more cows in order to get into vet school, maybe I could get one as my next show prospect?

~ Charter Member of the Welsh Cob clique ~

hoodoo
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:16 PM
Wow-imagine that cow giving you a dirty stop and going right over her head--that could be painful!!

I completely want that cow!!

Whistlejacket
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:27 PM
Is it just my imagination, or in lower right hand corner of the picture that Sleepy posted (Thanks, Sleepy!) of the "Cow Over Courses", is the cow's udder hanging dangerously low such that it might get knocked as she clears the fence? OUCH! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Lets hope that she has an "explosive hind end", such that that does not happen.

Now of course there are belly guards for the (equine) jumpers, but if bovine jumpers catches on, there might need to be udder guards! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HuntJumpSC
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:36 PM
MOO. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif SUZ

Proud member of the following:
***Rust TS Clique***SC'ers Clique***EBayers Anon Clique***
~~~Takeoffs are optional...landings are mandatory~~~
~~~GELD EM!~~~

Darva
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:47 PM
lets not forget this thread when the next BB awards comes around /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Funny stuff thanks for the laugh I needed it /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DMK
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:51 PM
Suzy - will you use the frying pan? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

Hopeful Hunter
Jun. 18, 2002, 12:52 PM
Well, to be very boring and PC about all of this...

I think that breed shows are geared to BREED specifics, discipline shows to discipline specifics, and open shows to the best horse and/or client of the biggest BNT (humor alert there!).

Honestly -- What I would suspect is that the original poster simply saw what most of us see regularly -- bad riding. Only this was bad QH riding. I've had the privilege of seeing GOOD riding from h/j people, dressage queens and western folk, and you know what? ALL of those horses worked off their hind ends, were amazingly responsive to seat, leg and hand cues and rode lightly. They all did ride in a slightly different "frame" as befitting their primary job, but they were all good and proper movers.

I know that to me, a lot of bad Western riding looks like people on lame horses. And probably a lot of bad show hunter riding looks to the Western folks like nutty, dangerous horses taking off. I think the problem is when a judge has to pin the lesser of all evils, we who don't know the discipline think that's the OK thing. It rarely is, I suspect, just the best of the lot on the day.

And as to show hunters having little relationship to field hunters --well, if my OTTB is any example he'd never be in a ring. The horse literally shakes riding in a field -- I think a gallop along the lanes with fences that aren't purty would kill him! Poor thing -- he's a decent enough show hunter, but the "real world" is just a bit too much for him to handle. Part of why I look at real field hunters with such amazement and awe, I guess.

FairWeather
Jun. 18, 2002, 01:23 PM
Thats what I get for doing some WORK! I missed some good award-worthy posts, didnt I???

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Darva
Jun. 18, 2002, 01:26 PM
you sure did fairweather /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Miniwelsh
Jun. 18, 2002, 01:31 PM
Me too! Doncha hate working for a living Fairweather!!

if the part about QH's looking like cows in english tack was the least of it I ma sooo devastated I missed this one.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Jun. 18, 2002, 01:44 PM
I didn't miss them, but I sure had a hard time not typing on this thread!

Now it's safe...

To each his/her own! This is all about our love of horses.

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

Dragoon
Jun. 18, 2002, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Totally aside from the fact I doubt you or anyone else has SEEN a cow in English tack
But mostly I would suggest stopping for no other reason than we can see you eating your shoe leather... surely you can taste it by now? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen a cow in English tack!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Seriously, I have...some farmer got bored and saddled up his black and white cow and rode around with English tack on /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .
- "Don't look at your horse....I'll tell you if you fall off."
- "The base of the jump is your friend and the way you ride you can never have enough friends."

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 18, 2002, 03:09 PM
umm, umm...*looks around nervously*...umm, I dont know what to say /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

*Every day you make decisions. Every day those decisions affect everyone around you. Just think, your choosing white over brown could quite possibly bring on a global dispute over bread preferences /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif*

Ghazzu
Jun. 18, 2002, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hoodoo:
I have heard of it, but never believed it to be true. If someone could find a picture, I would be thrilled!! I absolutely love cows, and WILL have a bunch someday--To learn I can ride one!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have located the jumping bull picture, and will scan and post same.

*In Your Dreams*
Jun. 18, 2002, 06:30 PM
I am in the same 4h group as Kristy. He is a darling, I just saw him today. Very cute. This thread now that I looked back at it has me laughing too. The older BB'ers are laughing at us from the OffCourse board, go look at the thread on "you have been posting too long on the board when" or something of that nature. It had me smiling all last night. Please ignore Kristy, she has her moments. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I thought she might contribute to the board, but she did other things. Sorry! She gave us all some laughs. No offense Kris! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

**~~Andrea and Dreamer~~**
"Why does it take a lifetime to learn to live a lifetime?"- Ray Hunt
"I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted. - Unknown

Little Indian
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzy:
I've been looking all over for the BEST picture that someone emailed me. This is not a joke - it was of Paul Schockemoehle (yea, so I butchered the name) riding a cow over a jump. Best of all the cow has the most beauteous flowered thing on its head. I'll keep looking; it's worth it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i've seen it!! it was on yahoo maybe at the begining of the year or last year? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Little Indian
Jun. 18, 2002, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Cowgirl up 2oo5*:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


you spelled "reigning" wrong in your profile...it's reining /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif sorry guys...that bugged me... pet peeve

-Hali-

*Proud Member of the AQHA Clique*

"I choose my friends by the beating of their hearts, not by the swelling of their heads."-Saves The Day

creseida
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:08 PM
Darn it! Darn it!! Darn it!!! I missed out on an entire troll-bashing session!!! Darn it! Darn it!! Darn it!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Oh, well. Hey Cowgirl.... don't let the cyber door hit you in the as.s on the way out! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (Sorry, Erin! Couldn't resist!!)

(I wonder whose alter Cowgirl is..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

~<>~ Daedalus built the Labyrinthe, so winding and complicated a structure that no man or beast, once shut inside, could ever find the exit~<>~

BarbB
Jun. 18, 2002, 10:44 PM
this thread was about four pages when I left for work......
I come home and there are EIGHT pages, but the juicy posts have been deleted. SO - I read people responding to _____????? and.......
Erin apparently talking to herself about behaving better and deleting posts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Its not FAIR!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

suzy
Jun. 19, 2002, 05:57 AM
DMK, only if you ask nicely. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sincerely,

suzy, who is off to make her fortune by designing an udder guard. I'm thinking floral patterns here...

Maria
Jun. 19, 2002, 06:48 AM
grumble, I miss all the fun.

I have made a little private observation, it's no wonder NC is 48th in education. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Ghazzu
Jun. 19, 2002, 07:01 AM
William the Ayrshire, Colin Newlove, Bugthorpe Yorks., in the irons.

Erin
Jun. 19, 2002, 07:20 AM
Hehehe. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Suzy, this one might need some... uh... protective gear as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK
Jun. 19, 2002, 07:44 AM
ooooh, pretty puhleeeeeeeeze Suzy!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


As for the "Other" guard, I think they have already invented something along that lines available at your handy dandy track supply store! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BarbB - you really didn't miss much, and most of the comprehensible portions were quoted. It wasn't exactly an epic of comprehension. But then, when do we EVER bother with comprehension around here? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

suzy
Jun. 19, 2002, 08:09 AM
I think you two are trying to get me killed. Just taking measurements would be a life-threatening endeavor. Hey, where's Velvet? She could do it. Muhahahahaha.

dublin
Jun. 19, 2002, 08:49 AM
How on earth did I miss this topic completely?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I just read through all 8 pages and it was certainly ahem, 'entertaining'.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I gather we probably won't have cowboy up gracing us with her presence here in the future??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique

AMom
Jun. 19, 2002, 08:51 AM
Sorry to have missed the "good stuff" /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


...but the following hand on that bull jumper! Where is the Auto release clique!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MoReDQthanU
Jun. 19, 2002, 08:58 AM
darn and I was just to rip the poster apart who said
QH's look like cows with tack" Wow, why didnt I just buy a freaking cow then?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

TERRI!!!!
~*Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and spurs excite me!*~

Erin
Jun. 19, 2002, 09:13 AM
Now, now... just because someone is acting trollish does NOT mean the rules are suspended and it's okay to make personal attacks against them.

A little restraint, please. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

suzy
Jun. 19, 2002, 09:42 AM
Well, I'll tell yea; this whole thread has me rethinking and reworking my business plan; the plan in which I was going to build my own farm, train some dressage horses, and sell them for big bucks. That plan. Admittedly, not the most original, but it was a plan.

I'm moving to my new farm in about a week and am wondering if my "old" neighbors (dairy farmers) would miss a Holstein (cow, that is) or two. I could advertise Holstein dressage prospects for sale. People would think that I had accidentally left off the "er." Anyway, when they arrived and saw the superior training of my Holsteins, they'd undoubtedly have to have one for themselves... well, after a few schnapps (bottles) that is. That's how they sell horses in Europe, and by gosh, it works. It REALLY works! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So, I'm just putting a slightly different spin on things.

suzyofftoremovedividersfromtrailertoaccommodateHol steins

Sandy M
Jun. 19, 2002, 11:41 AM
Think the equivalent of PM foals: You can rescue little potential veals!!! Get 'em young (no bad habits) and train them as open jumpers and fancy colored hunters.

Whistlejacket
Jun. 19, 2002, 11:55 AM
If this cows doing dressage and hunter/jumpers movement catches on, human nature being what it is, inevitably the proponents of the different breeds of cows would start slamming one another.

For example, can't you just imagine in a cow hunter class the Holstein proponents insulting the Guernsey proponents by saying "The Guernsey's look like a horse under English tack". /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Whistlejacket on Jun. 19, 2002 at 03:29 PM.]

MoReDQthanU
Jun. 19, 2002, 12:30 PM
I can just see it now: Bovitation Under Saddle /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TERRI!!!!
Guess what guys!?!? Schools out! Guess what guys, IM SO HAPPY!!!!!:)

Jun. 19, 2002, 02:56 PM
Josie- SUPPOSEDLY the fences in one of the working hunter classes at this years Redbud went from like, 3'3" in to 3'9" out...I'm pretty sure. And the Miller's class at congress...I heard that it was *supposedly* going up to 4' this year....not sure if that's true.

*Belen*
If riding were all bright lights, big arenas and blue ribbons, I would have quit a long time ago."
-George Morris
*Visit My Page* (http://www27.brinkster.com/heightshunter/main)

D.O.T.
Jun. 19, 2002, 05:13 PM
Half the horses refused at 3'6 at the Miller's Classic at Congress this year, and that's supposedly the best group of QH hunters around. In my opinion no way they go higher.

DMK
Jun. 19, 2002, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by D.O.T.:
In my opinion no way they go higher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, DMK whispers, but whatever you do don't tell Laura Kraut her horse can't go higher than 3'6... You might shake her confidence and she could crash, and then where would we be? Yup, sitting right here blaming D.O.T., that's where we would be...

So you don't think there is even the remotest chance that the stoppers might have been poorly trained and/or never were schooled over a "built" 3'6 course with (possibly) stepped out lines before they got to Congress? Or you think that the riders/trainers had regularly attempted to get these incapable animals over 3'6 and (presumably) failed just as regularly, and then decided what the heck, they'd pack up the trailers and head to Columbus so they could repeat the experience in front of a lot more people?

I mean I am totally willing to buy into the latter because the logic is flawless, but when you can find your basic pony jumpers doing 3'6 to 4'0 in Europe, I need to understand why a horse by virtue of it's breeding can't jump over 3'6, especially when there is every chance it is 1/2 to 3/4 crossed out with a horse with a not insignificant reputation for jumping a bit higher than 3'6. But I am old and easily confused, so that could be the problem.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

D.O.T.
Jun. 19, 2002, 06:12 PM
I would guess that given most QH hunters are jumping 2'6 - 3', with senior Working hunters maybe at 3'3 in Tampa and Lexington your first hypothesis is probably correct. They simply are not trained indoors over 3'6 to any great extent. Advertise a 4' Miller's Classic and probably the entries go way down.

CraZ4Horses
Jun. 19, 2002, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoReDQthanU:
Wow, why didnt I just buy a freaking cow then?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Am I the only person who thinks cows are cute? LOL they are adorable...

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 05:06 AM
I don't think the upped heights will deter any of the horse owners from entering the Millers.It will be much scarier than usual to watch but they still will try. Its funny that they feel brave enough to jump the height at Congress and they won't anywhere else.(many trainers boo hoo untill the jumps go down)My theory about why the "regular" hunter riders can come in and win the class so easily is they don't panic when the jumps go up,just another day at work for them.

DMK
Jun. 20, 2002, 05:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by D.O.T.:
Advertise a 4' Miller's Classic and probably the entries go way down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Probably! I don't think I have ever seen more than 20 Regular Workings at WEF either. Contrary to popular belief, it ain't easy for a horse to hunt around 4'0. Meaning it is significantly easier to jump 4'0 if absolute perfection of pace and style isn't Job 1. Most people readily admit the great 4'0 hunters have what it takes to do the really big fences.

But if it is as leaper said, they must have bravery in the air at Columbus, or maybe Bill Ellis shames 'em all into pointing their horses down the lines! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 05:23 AM
The thing that makes me laugh is they(the QH folk) take for granted is that any horse can jump 3'6". Trust me most of those poor things have no buisness in that class(poor Teddy Dorsett for one, 21 year old they still makehim jump around,pony stride and all)

HuntJumpSC
Jun. 20, 2002, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CraZ4Horses:



Am I the only person who thinks cows are cute? LOL they are adorable...

~*Katy*~
~*Don't think. Just jump it*~
~*In Loving Memory of Romeo*~
April 26, 1993-April 19, 2002<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I like cows too /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif escpecially with a loaded baked potato and a salad! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOL! Just kidding guys... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Herm...I'm wondering if the farmer down the road would miss that cute little black and white one (sorry the name escapes me)~ I could take her to the local 4-H and do the "cattle under saddle" class.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif SUZ

Proud member of the following:
***Rust TS Clique***SC'ers Clique***EBayers Anon Clique***
~~~Takeoffs are optional...landings are mandatory~~~
~~~GELD EM!~~~

suzy
Jun. 20, 2002, 05:53 AM
"Bovitation" - makes me think of bovine and levitation combined. Think about it: if that's the case, those 3'6" fences would be no problem whatever. So what if the cow is on its back with feet pointed skyward while clearing said fences. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jun. 20, 2002, 06:06 AM
to supply jumps and course design for several shows. This says it all:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> many trainers boo hoo untill the jumps go down <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One day, I was waiting until the last class was done to clear the jumps out of the ring. All that was left of the show for needing jumps was a few Hunter hacks the next day. As I drove into the ring with my flatbed, a swarm of people who had been showing over those jumps for three days came streaking into the ring to get one last school over the jumps (of which 2 would remain). I was pulling cups, and some lady rides up to me and asks if I could move the gate that was leaning against the standard so that she could jump the wall behind it!!! I was floored! Like I was her personal jump crew /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif !!! I said "NO". More stories, too numerous to list, but in our area---what a bunch of whiners!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know there are some who aren't like this - I joke with them at the shows, but it seems to be "normal" to whine, move jumps, set the course to your advantage for most of the QH trainers attending these shows. I get even in my own way... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I AM the course designer don't ya know!

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 06:15 AM
oh my god Silly Mommy, was that you at Elmira?? The land of the boo hooers!LOL Its true they jump those jumps a million times and they still want to jump more. I went down after all was said and done to watch someone try a horse and saw the whole thing, it was a riot, sharks on a feeding frenzy.(btw, I love your courses this year they are so much more fun-even if the lines do get shortened up during the night;))

DMK
Jun. 20, 2002, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by leaper3:
The thing that makes me laugh is they(the QH folk) take for granted is that any horse can jump 3'6". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta love that "can-do" spirit!

On the other hand, I guess most horses CAN jump 3'6... It's the jumping 3'6 WELL that is a bit harder. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

Jun. 20, 2002, 06:45 AM
Yes, THAT was me. I do believe I was wearin my COTH cap as well (it's permanently attached to my noggin).

Don't even get me started on the "Open" QH shows I've judged!!!

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

Sparky
Jun. 20, 2002, 06:50 AM
Silly Mommy you would love it around here! As the frenzied before class schooling goes on and on and on, the trainers start moving the jumps in inch by inch, thinking they aren't being noticed, ubtil the lines are on about an 8' step. Sometimes they get away with it, but once in awhile, a judge with a rule book in one hand and a measuring tape in another will pull all the lines out again to where they're supposed to be and the class is pretty much a bloodbath. That's just on a local level--at the FL winter circuits and Congress and World, that's not gonna happen!

Heather
Jun. 20, 2002, 07:07 AM
Coming late to this thread, BUT:

Thanks the lord I didn't learn until now that QH's can't jump 3'6 or bigger. I might never have tried this jump if I'd known that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Guess it's a miracle we lived /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Heather
Jun. 20, 2002, 07:13 AM
Here is my cow doing dressage.

Heather
Jun. 20, 2002, 07:17 AM
And oh yeah, just for good measure, here's my other "stock horse" my Appy gelding (I know, I know the spots aren't readily visible).

Too bad these guys can't jump either. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BarbB
Jun. 20, 2002, 07:34 AM
the idea that QHs can't jump is silly.

We have full QHs at my barn that jump around 3' and 3'3" and 3'6" courses, make all striding down the lines as well as the TBs and pin at the local and rated shows.
The difference might be that they are full time hunters...all their rider's focus is on learning the hunters, so their time is not divided between the multiple classes that many QHs at the breed shows participate in. This is not a criticism of multiple 'hats' for the QHs, that is after all, part of their appeal. It just makes sense that if you pick one discipline and focus on it you are going to make more progress.
I know of a couple of kids who show on the national level in Paints - they do it all, but they only jump maybe once a month, if that. Makes sense to me that they are not going to float around a 3'3" hunter course the same way that a horse that does it often is going to.

And lets stop the "love-in for cows"
I love cows too....pickle, mustard, lettuce, hold the onions....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Barb

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Jun. 20, 2002, 07:58 AM
(we're talking 4'6" and up), was a QH. I sadly lost her in a fire a week before I was leaving for WEF to do the high AO jumpers with her. (yes, at one point I was an ammy)

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 08:26 AM
Silly Mommy, I'll have to look for you over 4th of July weekend.(the hat will surely be the clue,LOL)keep those cool courses coming!its been very fun...Sparky they do that around here too(shorten the lines ever so gradually)I quess the thinking is the slower they go the prettier they jump.(I've heard that said)I'm so not saying most QH's can't jump 3'6",mine is best at that height. I'm saying they just take it for granted that all can(sure they can leap over but not many of them have the scope or step required to cross over to the real hunter shows imho)

Jun. 20, 2002, 08:39 AM
I go back in with my trusty tape-measure and readjust before the classes start!

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

Heineken
Jun. 20, 2002, 08:52 AM
Email me please again, I want to ask you some stuff about Teddy Dorsett!!!!

Founding member AQHA clique

D.O.T.
Jun. 20, 2002, 09:16 AM
Getting a horse prepared and conditioned for 3'6 is really one of the issues with QH hunters. I'm doing large juniors with QH this year, and the higher the finces the better he jumps. When I was on the QH circuit we trained and jumped 2'6 -2'9. I had the high point senior working hunter back a few years ago, and even he had trouble over 3'3 let alone 3'6.

By the way I agree about the sad state and treatment of Teddy, know the farm and "trainers" well.

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 09:46 AM
Hhytken,email coming...D.O.T. I know who you are!!Could you possibly ride with DC &BE??

D.O.T.
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:24 AM
Leaper3 Yup that's me

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:31 AM
D.O.T., I figured from your screen name.(Dash Of Texas perhaps?)LOL

MoReDQthanU
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:32 AM
Bovination= The art of lifting ones cow over an obstical not to excede(sp?) 3'6

I have a QH/appy.
She Jumped 4'6 at a standstill
shes 15 hands
Shes doing medium dressage
DONT TELL ME WHAT MY HORSE CAN AND CANNOT DO /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

TERRI!!!!
Guess what guys!?!? Schools out! Guess what guys, IM SO HAPPY!!!!!:)

Erin
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:36 AM
Suuuuuzy... you have competition. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.anc.org/farm/farm_article.cfm?identifier=2002_0618_cows

Jun. 20, 2002, 10:38 AM
As I was saying...

Actually, any requests/suggestions for the courses leaper, D.O.T.? Remember, I don't want any whining!

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

D.O.T.
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:44 AM
Leaper3 Riding DOT at home these days. He's still an incredible horse, but we retired him from the show ring. If he could do 3'6 without being so flaky there wouldn't be a better equitation horse around, least not what I've seen this year on the hunter circuit...but he's DOT.

Headed down to NJ this weekend to ride and show...somewhere

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:44 AM
Silly Mommy, I think the courses have been tons better this year than in years past. Your rollback turns are awesome but I would love a bending line too.(I would kill for a counter canter but that could never happen-to many hissy fits would be had)The hunter trips have been perfect!! Keep up the great work! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MoReDQthanU
Jun. 20, 2002, 10:44 AM
here we go!

TERRI!!!!
Guess what guys!?!? Schools out! Guess what guys, IM SO HAPPY!!!!!:)

D.O.T.
Jun. 20, 2002, 11:22 AM
Silly Mommy: You want to see fits...Several years ago in Elmira the hunter hack line was a semi-circle...

Jun. 20, 2002, 11:26 AM
Thanks, I wasn't sure how it would be received, but I didn't want to keep the same ol' stuff. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

Sandy M
Jun. 20, 2002, 11:57 AM
I think just about ANY horse of ANY breed is capable (if not necessarily willing) to heave itself over 3'. Most can handle 3'6".

I think the statement re breed shows is not that QHs are not CAPABLE of jumping big fences, but that at most of their breed shows, they are not REQUIRED TO. Most AQHA shows, no matter what the premium says, don't set honest 3'6", 3'9" or 4' fences, and when they DO there are problems, because the competitors (unless they are among the few who show open as well) aren't USED to jumping an entire course of the higher fences, though they may be CAPABLE of doing so with a little practice/training.

I think there is some sort of missing "accurate measurement" gene among breed show managers, competitors and trainers. There were cries of horror one year when I helped set fences for the hunter and jumper classes at a recognized breed show, and by tape measure, set them at the required height: "OH, those look WAAAY too big..." and sure enough, management lowered them although they were spot on. Then I'm sitting on my 16.3 App, waiting my turn, and a teenager on a horse next to me, says, "That's a nice big horse. My horse is 18 hands, how big is your horse?" Mind you, I'm looking DOWN on this kid's HEAD. I said, "My horse is 16.3." Silence - Then there followed a big dialogue of absolute denial that his horse, by my estimation, was probably 15.2, and an assertion that mine must be 19 hands. So.... is it that AQHA, APHA and ApHC people are confused by feet, inches and hands, whether it be horses or fences, or what? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jun. 20, 2002, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think there is some sort of missing "accurate measurement" gene among breed show managers, competitors and trainers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They made me drop EVERYTHING!!!

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

TrakHack
Jun. 20, 2002, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
So.... is it that AQHA, APHA and ApHC people are confused by feet, inches and hands, whether it be horses or fences, or what? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that probably *would* be the case in my circle of friends, except that one of us has an honest-to-god 17.1hh TB. The rest of us have stock horses ranging from 14.2 to maybe 16hh. So, when my 15.1hh Paint stands next to the TB, she truly looks like a dwarf! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have a feeling that a lot of people have never put a stick next to their horse and measured how tall it actually is /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif... But heck, 18hh sounds like a good height to say! And of course, that 18hh horse must be jumping *at least* 4'6"!

The Panchen Lama of DQs! (Second only to Velvet, the undisputed Dalai Lama of DQs.)

findeight
Jun. 20, 2002, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sandy M:


I think there is some sort of missing "accurate measurement" gene among breed show managers, competitors and trainers.


Seems to me we hashed this one out about some of the AA shows recently too, management needs to rely on the rules and not trying to please everybody.....but then they don't come back and the show loses money?????????????

Anyway I have owned or shown just about everything though not over fences and a horse with the proper conformation and mindset for the discipline will do well regardless of breed..

Cut the folks at the Congress a little slack too, coming into that small indoor ring with honest height fences is a challenge for any breed. Probably why many winners there do the open hunter shows, doing the breed shows only to get qualified. It's all about what you are used to.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Sandy M
Jun. 20, 2002, 01:59 PM
I don't know exactly how big the ring you are referring to is, but I have shown at the Cow Palace in San Francisco, and compared to most outdoor rings I have shown in, it seems(ed) small compared to most outdoor arenas I'd shown in, especially compared to the open field jumping I was used to in the stadium phase of eventing (like polo fields!).

The first few years I showed at the Cow Palace, the regular hunter division judge judged the breed division, and the fence were truly 3'6" and 3'9" (and more in jump-offs). Wheeling a 16.3 horse around that course wasn't always easy, but I managed and never really thought that much of it (except when we went by the bucking chutes!), so while, perhaps, AQHA/APHA/ApHC competitors should be "cut some slack", why not simply state in the premium that, due to the size of the ring or whatever, the fences are going to be 2'9" instead of 3'3" and 3' instead of 3'6"?? Why pretend they are bigger - and the same as open shows - when they are not?

As the years progressed (I showed in the breed div. at Cow Palace from 1980 through 1990; they dropped the App division after 1990), the fences got smaller and smaller, despite still being advertised at 3'6" and 3'9". C'est la vie. I never came home empty handed with that old boy, whether the fences were honest or not! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sandy M
Jun. 20, 2002, 02:03 PM
occasionally rode western. She said she called him her "cowpony" because he made the COWS look like PONIES. He had a "dent" in one side of his face (probably from being in an odd position in the womb, said the vets), and from one side looked almost Arabian, to add to the confusion!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TrakHack
Jun. 20, 2002, 02:22 PM
I'd love to put a western saddle on this TB of my friend's; he already makes everything else look teeny tiny!

I actually got a bit depressed while taking care of this horse for a week, comparing him to my horse, and feeling oh-so-inferior... Oh well, at least I don't need a ladder to get on my pony! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Panchen Lama of DQs! (Second only to Velvet, the undisputed Dalai Lama of DQs.)

HuntJumpSC
Jun. 20, 2002, 02:34 PM
My appendix QH is a true 17 hands and anytime I take him to a "local" (meaning little-open-down-the-road) show I always get the strangest looks. Everyone else is on horses that are 15.2 max...so people always are just in awe of how big my guy is in comparison~ I look like a midget both on and off of him...LOL It's truly funny to see their expressions when he steps off the trailer! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif SUZ

Proud member of the following:
***Rust TS Clique***SC'ers Clique***EBayers Anon Clique***
~~~Takeoffs are optional...landings are mandatory~~~
~~~GELD EM!~~~

findeight
Jun. 20, 2002, 02:46 PM
It's little compared to most, the main ring is in a multi purpose auditorium. Reminded me of the old Forum (City of Hope International in LA) as well as the Astrodome and the Houston Stock Show, the Rodeo got the big arena there, we got the AstroArena-a basketball court with dirt.
The fairgrounds at Columbus are pretty beat up and that is a dinky and dark ring so, as I said, cut them some slack. They are all doing the best they can.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Sandy M
Jun. 20, 2002, 02:57 PM
Well, findeight, The Cow Palace is multi-purpose too, and I've noticed that the barrel racing times in the Rodeo portion of the Grand National Horse Show, Rodeo & Livestock Exposition (Yee Hah!) are REALLY quick (compared to what the gals would win with at, say, Calgary or Salinas), so I think we're talking about a comparably small arena. Frankly, I was always impressed with the open division jumpers actually doing a Grand Prix in that area. The turns were not to be believed! Now, while they refer to a Grand Prix in their advertising, most of the jumper classes are speed classes, not GPs.

So, anyway..... my big App managed to wheel his way around 3'6 and 3'9" H/J courses, including jump-offs, and believe me, I'm no exceptionally talented rider, though perhaps he WAS an exceptionally talented horse (to be able to cart me around those courses in that small arena so well)....so maybe we SHOULDN'T cut the AQHA people any slack: QH are good horses. Let's keep the fences the advertised height and thereby encourage the AQHA H/J people to perform at the same level as the open H/J people - then you WON'T have "peanut rollers" in HUS classes - at least not among the horses that really jump, or perhaps there will be classes added: English pleasure for the peanut rollers and "real" HUS for the over fences horses. Problem solved! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

findeight
Jun. 20, 2002, 03:06 PM
And every year some do get around the course and win.....

AQHA has it's problems the same as all other breeds.
Not aiming anything at you SandyM, just those who slam based soley on a preconcieved notion of how an entire breed goes based on their own, sometimes limited, observations.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

TrakHack
Jun. 20, 2002, 03:08 PM
As noticed when my poorly conformed stock horse is turned out with the aformentioned TB: The TB can run a lot faster but my horse can make much, MUCH quicker turns. Any time he gains on her is lost when he has to turn his Titanic-sized body around /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

So, it might be interesting to compare stock-type horses and non-stock-type horses on two courses of the same height, one in a smallish arena, and one in a bigger arena. If it were a speed class, would the stock-types quick turns and sprinting power give them an advantage?

The Panchen Lama of DQs! (Second only to Velvet, the undisputed Dalai Lama of DQs.)

thecowboyway
Jun. 20, 2002, 06:28 PM
The Congress has had the hunter classes in the Celeste Center the last 2 years. Its much better than the old coluseum, its huge has its own indoor schooling area(no getting crammed in the chute 10 horses deep)and the footing is pretty good. The Senior Hunter has been good sized the last few years and the Millers is always at the true heights.

Josie
Jun. 24, 2002, 03:49 PM
FindEight Ever been to the Garden?? I don't think they have any easier of a time if not a worse time trying to school and than go and show over hyge jumps in that little ring.