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free
Dec. 4, 2002, 08:32 AM
It seems as though I read that Roberto, Buckpasser, and Blushing Groom turned out good jumpers or event horses. Anyone know about this? Thank you.

free
Dec. 4, 2002, 08:32 AM
It seems as though I read that Roberto, Buckpasser, and Blushing Groom turned out good jumpers or event horses. Anyone know about this? Thank you.

adamsmom
Dec. 4, 2002, 08:37 AM
I can attest to Buckpasser and his sons, particularly Buckfinder. They're harder to find these days though.
Also Cox's Ridge.

To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.
Benjamin Disraeli, Sybil, 1845

Toadie's mom
Dec. 4, 2002, 09:06 AM
Another yes on the Buckpasser line. I have a grandson and have worked with 3 others and they are all good jumpers and good temperaments. These are all by the same sire and unfortunately he is deceased also.

free
Dec. 4, 2002, 09:17 AM
Toadie's mom.......who was that sire?

Toadie's mom
Dec. 4, 2002, 09:34 AM
Free- he was State Dinner, primarily a TX sire

BarbB
Dec. 4, 2002, 09:38 AM
but there are quite a few TBs in this area that are Nijinski grandkids out of a sire named Speedy Nijinski.
They are big lunks to look at, but absolutely CATLIKE over big jumps, fearless and with great calm temperaments.

BarbB
charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings. - The Koran

JER
Dec. 4, 2002, 10:16 AM
I have a Roberto grandson and a Buckpasser granddaughter. I didn't know the breeding on either of them when I bought them, but oddly enough, both look exactly like the 'typical' horse of thier respective lines.

Buckpasser won on dirt and turf but he won most of his races by less than a length. This was because he would pull himself up once he got in front. His riders had to time their move perfectly. He also hated to train. As a stallion, he's best known as a sire of mares. For more info, and a good conformation photo see:
Buckpasser page (http://members.fortunecity.com/spiletta42/buckpasser.html)

The typical Buckpasser look is 16 hh, very compact, powerful, uphill. They're known for being hot. Silver Charm is a Buckpasser grandson. VDL Stud in Holland (a major SJ place) stands a BP grandson named French Buffet. He competed at the GP level in Europe and is a full TB.

Roberto was a son of the wonderful Hail to Reason. There's a photo of HtR on the Del Mar Pedigree site that shows what these horses tend to look like -- lean, somewhat lanky, a back that is as high as the withers (gives you the feeling you're on a much taller horse), handsome rather than pretty, more of a steeplechase look.

If I were looking for an eventing TB by pedigree, I'd look for the Roberto line. Our gelding is careful and talented enough for straight SJ and could be quite competitive in the 1.40m classes. He's easy to work with and train (unlike my mare who was apparently born knowing everything) and did his first Training HT within 5 months of starting training over fences. His dressage is relaxed and quiet (again, unlike my mare). We can take him out in the huntfield, too. Denny Emerson wrote a piece for the Chronicle on this line a few years ago; it may be in the archives.

eventrider
Dec. 4, 2002, 01:01 PM
I haden't heard that before but....I have a gelding by Runaway Groom...Blushing Groom grandson. He came off the track last year and is doing Prelim already. I am sure he will be an advanced horse (hopefully like his stablemates!!). I would love to hear any more info on Blushing groom. He is the most balanced and talented horse I have had so far.

kileyc
Dec. 4, 2002, 02:57 PM
JER,
I was looking on AGDirect, for Roberto related babies, just out of curiosity. And found this little guy, I'm not in the market for a baby, but check out his markings!!! Does that not look like a jumping horse on his shoulder???
Sorry sort of off topic, but I just had to post!

http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1035136519&0

jenarby
Dec. 4, 2002, 03:20 PM
Just sold a son of State Dinner as mentioned above. He's a big boy too. Handsome and athletic. I've never had a Buckpasser but he was nice.
As I said in a prior thread, I LOVE the In Reality line. Very talented, good minded, hard working horses.

Good, Better, Best.....the best don't rest until their good is better and their better is the very best!

free
Dec. 4, 2002, 03:51 PM
jenarby.......I have been compiling a list of (mostly) sires that turn out decent Event horses so that I will know what to look for in pedigree searches. And believe you me, "In Reality" is on that list!

Small Star
Dec. 4, 2002, 04:11 PM
I didn't think this was a very good pedigree, but I don't know much about it.

{I,S} *Princequillo 40
{C} Prince John 53
ch Not Afraid 48
{B,I} Speak John 58 =Tornado (FR) 39
b *Nuit de Folies 47
b =Folle Nuit (FR) 40
Thunder Puddles 79 Traffic Judge 52
ch Delta Judge 60
dk b/ Beautillion 53
Big Puddles 71 Warfare 57
ro Mountainville 64
ro Safe Home 57
Thunder Rumble 89 Nearctic 54
dk b/ {B,C} Northern Dancer 61
b Natalma 57
{C} Lyphard 69 {B} *Court Martial 42
b Goofed 60
ch *Barra II 50
Lyphette (FR) 78 Balladier 32
b {B} Spy Song 43
br Mata Hari 31
Miss Diplomat 64 *Stella Aurata 49
dk b/ New Star 56
b Challedella 46
OUR LAST NICKLE {C,P} *Ribot 52
Dark Bay or Brown Mare {C,S} Graustark 63
Foaled March 13, 1997 ch Flower Bowl 52
in Iowa {B,C} Key to the Mint 69 {I,S} *Princequillo 40
b Key Bridge 59
b Blue Banner 52
Plugged Nickle 77 {I,C} Tom Fool 49
b {C} Buckpasser 63
b Busanda 47
Toll Booth 71 {B} *My Babu 45
b Missy Baba 58
b *Uvira II 38
Lucky Nickle 87 Sunglow 47
dk b/ Sword Dancer 56
ch Highland Fling 50
{I,C} Damascus 64 {B} *My Babu 45
b Kerala 58
b Blade of Time 38
Miss Damascus 70 =Wyndham (GB) 33
ch *Windy City II 49
ch =Staunton (GB) 40
Windy Miss 59 Reigh Count 25
gr Ray Count Miss 47
gr Valenciennes 27



Breeder: Doug Bruce (IA)

Inbreeding: *Princequillo: 5S X 5D Dosage Profile: 7 4 14 1 0
*My Babu: 5D X 5D Dosage Index: 2.25
Center of Distribution: +0.65

(SPR=26; CPI=0.1)

RACE RECORD USA AND CANADA

08/31/02 16:36:38 Â*ETÂ*Â*Â*Â*Equine Line Product 11B - Our Last Nickle Â*Â*Â*Â* Page 2 of Â*2 Â*

YEAR AGE STARTS 1ST 2ND 3RD USA$
------------------------------------------------------------------
1999 2 1 0 0 0 0
2000 3 6 0 0 0 2,100
------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 7 0 0 0 2,100


~Small Star~

Small Star
Dec. 4, 2002, 04:17 PM
How do I make the spaces stay in her pedigree??? When I go to edit it they are all there and I post and PUF their gone!

~Small Star~

Robby Johnson
Dec. 4, 2002, 04:28 PM
the sire of Kim Severson's Over The Limit? I know I've seen him listed as the sire of a Rolex horse.

Robby

I see a stairway so I follow it down
Into the belly of a whale
Where my secrets echo all around ...

War Admiral
Dec. 4, 2002, 05:11 PM
The spacing is probably not going to work out here, so try adding her to the Del Mar pedigree database. Go here: http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree/

Can't really speak specifically to eventing, but just "as a Thoroughbred" this is not a bad bloodline at all. Plugged Nickle has black type top & bottom 3 generations back, and classy stuff at that. Thunder Rumble is a chef de race with winnings over a million.

The names I would want to see in a TB sport horse are pretty much there... Ribot, Buckpasser, My Babu of course <g>, Tom Fool, Damascus... Nothing to be ashamed of here, in fact I'd say better than average!

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Gry2Yng
Dec. 4, 2002, 05:34 PM
would be known as a sire of dams because (if my short term memory serves) he passed his large heart, which he recieved from his mommy Busanda, on to his daughters, who would then give it to their sons 50% of the time. Ideally, you would want him in the tail female line.

adamsmom
Dec. 4, 2002, 05:45 PM
I'd be pretty pleased with Our Last Nickle's pedigree. Looks like everything you want in an event horse!

As for Buckpasser, I'm biased, but I'll take him anywhere I can get him! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.
Benjamin Disraeli, Sybil, 1845

free
Dec. 4, 2002, 06:23 PM
I am just learning, but there plenty of sires on there that I have on my list. As far as pedigrees goes, I would say that his is pretty darn good.

The trouble is that what looks good on paper doesn't always get them around a course. There are so many other things that factor in. Sitting in a vets' office one day I overheard two TB breeders discussing the intricasies of breeding and finally one said that after all of the careful planning, in the end it was really just "a crap shoot". So when I get TOO excited about finding a hot pedigree, I remind myself of what he said. It's the performance that counts and in Eventing you just have to watch as they climb to the next level. You never know 'till they get there. (But those pedigrees do help.)

sprite
Dec. 4, 2002, 06:41 PM
I had a Buckpasser grandson that I evented a little- I second the compact, hot , great jumper opinions! He was a cute little guy who would jump anything and in style, but out temperments did not mesh well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Indecision may or may not be my problem.

Small Star
Dec. 4, 2002, 08:52 PM
I have Nikki on the Del Mar things now. That is sooooo cooool! Thanks sooo much! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If I can keep Nikki sound maybe she will be able to go prelim(he he I'm such a dreamer). She's only 5 time will tell.

BTW I was looking through pics of her ancestors and when she was racing weight she look TONS like the pic they have of Buckpasser. Minus the head though!

~Small Star~

www.geocities.com/staroftoday32 (http://www.geocities.com/staroftoday32)

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 05:18 AM
Ahh, yes, that's much better! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Del Mar rocks - warning, it's dangerous to your health and well being though... heehee... I'm a TB fanatic & I can waste *hours* there tracing my horse or my friends' horses back to the foundation sires. Yes the pics are great - really useful - and it's interesting to see what physical characteristics stick around in a particular bloodline over what seems to me to be a surprisingly long time! For example - horses with an overabundance of inbreeding to St. Simon (look how far back he is) *still* have a tendency to be over at the knee; a lot of Fair Plays *still* have cr*ppy tails... and tempers of course... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Let's see some pics of your girl!

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Maple Shade
Dec. 5, 2002, 06:47 AM
Interesting about the comments about hotness in this line. I have had many of these and not a one is what I would call "hot" although I wouldn't call them lazy either. All mine of the Roberto line also had outstanding jumps but were each straigter in the hock than ideal. Anyone else find this to be the case or is it coincidence?

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

free
Dec. 5, 2002, 07:55 AM
Maple Shade........that horse "Ronnie's Gift" that you used to have...what do you believe made him such a good jumper? And have you heard if he is still jumping as well?

(Look this one up folks...and see if his pedigree would lend itself to him being a fantastic jumper.)

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 08:15 AM
Y'know, I read the question about Ronnie's Gift & automatically thought "Betcha that horse is a Ribot", went to Del Mar, and yes it is. Those s*ckers can jump, and better yet, they LOFF it!

The downside of Ribot is that he was one plug-ugly SOB, LOL - so if you ever see a kind of mystifying "coarseness" in your TB you should also suspect Ribot. Having said that, though, there are plenty of Ribot descendants out there nowadays who only have just a hint of it - mine does - and what it can mean is bigger stronger bone. This is obviously a good thing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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free
Dec. 5, 2002, 09:42 AM
Lizviola....thanks for the info. You people are great!

So this means that Ribot's (or other ancesters) influence can show through even from that far back? How do you know which ancesters' influence (genes) are more dominent?

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How do you know which ancesters' influence (genes) are more dominent? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest about it, I have no clue. I'm not a breeder, just a fan, and identifying traits by bloodline has always been my little party trick! :-)

I think that the general rule is that the dam's influence is considered to be more important nowadays - but we are all so trained to think of "sires" that we still do it even though we know better.

But I do think some TB bloodline breed *incredibly* true for certain characteristics, even over hundreds of years, it seems. Remember Fusaichi Pegasus, won the Derby a few years back? That was the purest display of Fair Play temperament I've seen since the 60s. He didn't look like a Fair Play at ALL(looked like a Mr. Prospector, which he also was) but that temper was identical to my first OTTB decades ago, a son of War Admiral. So some of these traits, to my mind, don't ever really die - they just recede for a while then come back... But that's only my amateurish thoughts on the matter!

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Gry2Yng
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:01 AM
I have a grandson of Sir Ivor, who I only recently discovered has quite a propensity to throw fantastic jumpers. Eros is also a grandson, as is Fox in Flight and the recent Field Hunter Champion Laird Ivor. Apparently Sir Ivor is the stallion with the most sons among the list of sires of internation show jumper winners, with 11.

Anyhow, before I found out all of this fantastic jumping information, I was constantly amazed by the was Sir Ivor is able to throw his "look". His foals are typically black bay, with a roman nose and parrot mouth. They also have a distinct croup and shoulder. I can pick them out of any for sale ad or picture. I will post a few pics. I have only met one other Sir Ivor grandson owner (and her horse and mine also had the same father) so I have not been able to gleen much about temperment.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:03 AM
This is the recent Field Hunter Champion, actually a son of Sir Ivor and it seems from the article that he has a nice temperment. Sorry about the rider's head. I had to crop to get the BB to accept it.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:08 AM
I can't get at my favorite one, the site seems to be down. But I will post it when I can. Remember, these are grandsons.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:08 AM
This is my boy. I wish I had saved some of the ones I found on canter. In one case, the photo was so dark, you couldn't even tell what color the horse was, but I could see the angle of the croup and so I ran his pedigree, and sure enough...second or third generation, but still Sir Ivor.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:22 AM
He is a grey, but the shoulders and croup remain the same.

free
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:34 AM
Gry2Yng.....your horse looks SO cute!

free
Dec. 5, 2002, 11:47 AM
Does anyone know the pedigree of Idle Dice, the champion jumper that Rodney Jenkins used to ride? Rodney said that this horse was the best. He had a 4' hip span from one to another, a short back, a massive shoulder, four perfectly matched feet, and the lowest hocks that he had ever seen. That was his conformation pluses, but Rodney also said that what counted most was his great 'HEART' or 'WILL' to win. Have any of you seen this desire to win is also passed on?

eal
Dec. 5, 2002, 04:28 PM
In the magazine "Eventing", Dec issue that USEA publishes, is an article about bloodlines of the horses that went to the WEG and how certain sires repeatedly showed up.

mwalshe
Dec. 5, 2002, 05:12 PM
Idle Dice was sired by a stallion called Haybrook, I don't know what his reg. name was.

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 06:01 PM
I do think that the hotter the blood, the more "heart" (if we are talking courage, smarts, determination, things of that nature) there is built into the breed. I don't *just* see it in TB's although they are famous for it - I see it in Arabs and ASB's as well.

I am certain that if you asked 2 TB breeders whether it is passed on, they would say no, that if we could only figure out a way to bottle it, we would all be millionaires! Plenty of great sires have sired plenty of turkeys, as we all know!

I don't know who Idle Dice's sire/dam are, isn't that awful? And even more dreadful that it never occurred to me to even ask? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Somebody over on H/J will know, I'll go post it there! Now he really was a gutsy horse w/ heart and determination! Greeeaaaat TB sport horse!

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

mwalshe
Dec. 5, 2002, 06:22 PM
..that's HayHook, not Haybrook. Sorry!

note to self: learn to type /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 06:51 PM
Idle Dice: reg. name "Jonlyle", sire Hay Hook, dam DKDor (yikes). Interestingly he is listed as Hay Hook's only progeny - wonder if there are any others out there that Del Mar doesn't have? Even more interestingly (to me anyway) this is not all *that* great of a bloodline, to be honest about it!

At a quick and off-the-top-of-my-head analysis, I'd say the jump came from Blandford and the Halcyon mare, and the sheer guts and (is it OK to say this) b*lls came from my fave bloodline, Fair Play. Nobody's gonna beat a Fair Play at *anything* if they are in the mood to not get beat!

I can't really remember much about Ardan - I'd forgotten him completely until I saw the name! I'd be interested to know if anyone knows about him as a jumper sire. I don't but that's ignorance on my part - or Alzheimers!

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Maple Shade
Dec. 5, 2002, 07:26 PM
Free. Yep. Ronnie's Gift is Ribot 3rd and 5th generation. Also Damascus in 4th, In Reality in 3rd, Round table in 5th, and Alibhai in 3rd. Indeed he is not super pretty but what a jump and an incredible mind!!! I tend to choose a lot of Round Table, Damascus and Mr Prospector horses. Anyone have any comments on these lines? I'd love to hear some opinions. Oh yeah, and Double Jay too. Seems to me of the horses I've had Double Jay and Damascus seem to bring TONS of athleticism. Mr Prospectors are always super compact. The Round Tables all incredible gallops and great length of stride in all 3 gaits.

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

War Admiral
Dec. 5, 2002, 08:08 PM
I'm not that much of a Mr. Prospector fan for that very reason - they are all too small and blocky and QH-y. There was a Mr. Prospector filly in my old barn that was nearly 16h but trotted like a Shetland! But that's what they want on the track nowadays, for all those #$@%^ **sprints**!!!

I'm dreaming here, but I wish that admirers of the "old school" TB would get together and hatch a plan to get one LONG race on every race card in America, every day. The big tall leggy ones with scope would come back into style very quickly, I suspect!

Sigh.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Maple Shade
Dec. 6, 2002, 03:47 AM
Really Lizviola? I have not found this to be true. Here are 2 Mr. Prospector grandsons that I currently have. They are both VERY nice movers and jumpers.

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

Maple Shade
Dec. 6, 2002, 03:50 AM
trotting in field

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

Maple Shade
Dec. 6, 2002, 03:51 AM
jumping

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

Maple Shade
Dec. 6, 2002, 03:53 AM
in field

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

jenarby
Dec. 6, 2002, 05:12 AM
I didn't think he was "blocky"

Good, Better, Best.....the best don't rest until their good is better and their better is the very best!

War Admiral
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:21 AM
In fact, that's a situation where I'd be real curious who the sire & dam were. My knowledge of breeding is not sufficiently extensive to know what cross came in that was maybe more prepotent, and ended up with that - but I like it! What was that cross?? And how tall is that horse?

In terms of Maple Shade's horses - they are pretty much exactly what I am talking about. They are both VERY scopy and WONDERFUL movers (ten thousand times better than the one we had at our old barn, so you obviously know how to pick them REALLY well). In fact I remember complimenting you on horse #2 on a different thread - he's a great little horse. They both are.

But I suspect I do what everybody does, which is evaluate this stuff in terms of what *I* would want! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm almost 6 feet, not slight, and therefore I am a fan of the "old school" TB - tall and lean and greyhoundy w/ nothing but legslegslegs! And for the most part, I don't see Mr. Prospector siring very many of those.

So many of the good Mr. Prospectors are like Maple Shade's - *very* nice horses but just too darn small and square for me *personally* to be effective on. And so, I am not a fan of Mr. Prospector, because he is (was, I should say) one of the main sires who is taking the height out of the breed.

Both of Maple's horses have boatloads of potential, and a smaller rider would and should buy either one in a heartbeat, but for six-foot me, they would both be too small. So I have this innate prejudice against Mr. Prospector, b/c he just doesn't sire what I need!

Hope that clarifies where I am coming from.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Posting Trot
Dec. 6, 2002, 07:19 AM
My mare (before she had her bout with Lyme, etc.) has been a very athletic jumper, and has a pretty decent temperament as well. She never raced, though. Her sire is Roo Art (sire is Buckaroo, dam is New Art; New Art's sire was Ribot), and her dam is Scanal (sire is Quiet Fling--sired himself by Nijinsky II--and dam is Double Your Pleasure, who was sired by No Double). So, I was excited to hear everyone's opinions about the horses on both sides of her pedigree.

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 07:49 AM
Jenarby....who were the sire and dam of that horse? What was his name?

Thanks

sfir
Dec. 6, 2002, 07:55 AM
Buckaroo has consistently produced incredible jumpers. I have experience with quite a few Buckaroo offspring and they all seem to have the same qualities - exceptional jumpers, extremely bold and brave but sensitive and fairly tough on the flat. Some of the advanced horses Buckaroo has produced - Zacharoo, Anderoo, Hello Buckaroo and I am sure there are others. He has also produced Grand Prix jumpers (Jillaroo is one off the top of my head). Interestingly enough - none of these horses were bred to event - they were bred to race so it goes to show how strong the genes are that they fell into the sport as OTTBs and made it to the top. I have just received another Buckaroo 5yr mare as a sale horse and she is just as good and bold jumper as I expected.
Although they tend to be too much horse for an amateur rider - the brilliance and talent always seems to be there. For an ambitious rider wanting to go to the top on a budget - if you can come across some of the Buckaroo youngsters and get working on them early your chances of having an advanced horse are pretty good!

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 08:03 AM
Does anyone know of any simple books or articles on dominent lines and genes in the pedigrees of TBs?

Thank you.

War Admiral
Dec. 6, 2002, 08:46 AM
And also start out at www.thebloodhorse.com (http://www.thebloodhorse.com). I believe they have links to TB breeding booksellers.

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free
Dec. 6, 2002, 09:06 AM
Does the Buckaroo line descend from Buckpasser?

Thank you.

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 09:11 AM
So....I am interested to know...if you go to the track to purchase an OTTB...do you look at the bloodlines before buying a horse that looks good to you...or do you look after purchasing just as an added bonus? (Do you go seeking a few certain bloodlines?)

kileyc
Dec. 6, 2002, 09:37 AM
Okay, now I have an "inbreeding" question for all you breeding gurus. I just heard about a 17 hand 4 year old Irish TB for sale, but the breeding sounds wierd to me.

His sire is Raykour, by Dalsaan
His damn is Weight in Gold by Dalsaan

Is this too close? Should he have 5 legs or something???

I havn't seen the horse....

Janet
Dec. 6, 2002, 10:17 AM
If Dalsaan has any "bad points" (expressed or "hidden") you have an increased chance of getting them.

If Dalsaan has "good points", you have an increased chance of getting them.

Unless other of Dalsaan's relatives have 5 legs, it is highly unlikely that you will get a foal with 5 legs. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

PS
If you get the good points it is called "linebreeding".
If you get the bad points, it is called "inbreeding".

bambam
Dec. 6, 2002, 10:25 AM
Just curious- I have an OTTB with Danzig bloodlines(Danzig is grandpa and Danzig Connection is pa). Anybody know anything about his offspring, particularly with jumpers or eventers?
I just bought him because I loved him. I know nothing about TB breeding.

JAS
Dec. 6, 2002, 10:32 AM
I like Free's question, do you buy off the track with these sires in mind ? Or do you do what most of us do, buy phenotype and make the most of the horse you take home from the sale, no matter the breeding ?

kileyc
Dec. 6, 2002, 11:31 AM
Thanks Janet! If I get to see him this weekend, I'll be sure to count all his essential limbs!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 12:31 PM
O. K.....since the people that I know with OTBs are here and this is relatively new to me....

!. Which lines do you believe have soundness problems?
2. Which lines mature later?
3. Which lines are tougher?
4. Which are more level-headed?
5. Which are considered difficult?
6. Which are more task oriented?

Feel free to add any other traits that you find significant.

Thank you.

Karma
Dec. 6, 2002, 04:07 PM
What to make of her bloodlines? She is an OTTB and I bought her based on her looks and previous training (not on the track, but race trained cross counrty-minus jumps- and on the trail. Any comment on her bloodlines or looks for eventing?

Karma and Tiny

check her out at: http://www.dmtc.com/p/23004.php

jenarby
Dec. 6, 2002, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lizviola:
In fact, that's a situation where I'd be real curious who the sire & dam were. My knowledge of breeding is not sufficiently extensive to know what cross came in that was maybe more prepotent, and ended up with that - but I like it! What was that cross?? And how tall is that horse?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This horse is sired by "Line in the Sand" who is by "Mr. Prospector." His dam is named, "Flying Jester"

He's 16 hands, but everyone thinks he's taller than that. I measured him several times just to make sure. This is the first horse I've had with that line. He is probably the quietest, most level headed horse right off the track I've ever had.

Good, Better, Best.....the best don't rest until their good is better and their better is the very best!

jenarby
Dec. 6, 2002, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Jenarby....who were the sire and dam of that horse? What was his name?

Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which one? The chestnut I currently have or the bay I already sold?

Good, Better, Best.....the best don't rest until their good is better and their better is the very best!

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 04:52 PM
karma.....for what it's worth, in my humble opinion, I believe that both her pedigree AND her looks are good for Eventing. From what I could see, she has a nice short back, short cannon bones, good shoulder, big rump and well-muscled second thigh. Difficult to see her neck angle but depending on who you talk to, that doesn't always matter. Without two photo shots, it was hard to tell about whether she was slightly over at the knee, but again some people prefer that.

Her pedigree looks strong, especially on the bottom, where it now seems to matter more. She has the mare Almahmoud (who appeared in two of the WEG pedigrees) 5dx5d along with Native Dancer 4Sx5d and Bull Lea, Turn To, Nearco, Neartic, Ribot, Mr. Prospector and of course because of him Raise A Native. Another nice one to see is Northern Dancer.

There are far better opinions than mine, but I just couldn't resist. Please let me know how she does.

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 05:00 PM
jenarby....the one who was the Mr. Prospector grandson, but you have already answered. Thanks.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 6, 2002, 05:25 PM
Let's see if I can catch up.

Thanks free. He looks even better now, that was a few weeks after I got him, almost 3 years ago.

Lizviola - I am also tall and LOVE the old bloodlines, not only for size, but of course they are breed for the classic distances instead of the sprint. My retiree actually has a 2 in the Solid category. I have rarely seen anything in solid in younger horses, let alone anything in professional. His solids come from Blenheim II (2x) , Discovery and Teddy. They are all 5th generation and have dropped off the pedigree of most horses under 10.

Solid and Professional indicate stallions that were successful at very long distances. By example, the derby is a classic distance at 1 1/4. Solid and Professional are longer than that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Buckaroo has consistently produced incredible jumpers. exceptional jumpers, extremely bold and brave but sensitive and fairly tough on the flat. Although they tend to be too much horse for an amateur rider - the brilliance and talent always seems to be there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I know a buckaroo grandson on the dam side and except for the bold and brave part (this horse is a nervous nelly) you have described him to a t! What a jump! And not an amateur's horse!

Traits I know of...

Bold Ruler, bad feet, bad temperment
War Admiral - bad temperment
Count Fleet - trainable

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:09 PM
Where do you get the data for Solids, Professionals, etc.? Thanks.

Karma
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:14 PM
Free- thanks for your comments!! I am hoping she works out really well, just working on the basics right now...

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:25 PM
We have a mare that is extremely sensitive but BRAVE. She would try until she dies, has good conformation, is beautiful, and has the best feet I have ever seen on a TB. Tough and always healthy and sound. Sweet on the ground. I would give anything to know her pedigree but, unfortunately, her papers were lost and she has no tatoo. Trying to decide whether to breed her or get her back into training. I think that with the right-minded Arab that we could get a fantastic Endurance baby but my son wants to use a TB mate for Eventing.

Karma's mare looks as though she could throw some tough Eventing babies and in her case they have a pedigree to work with.

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:31 PM
Karma....you're breaking my heart. How tall is she and where did you find her? Next you'll tell me that on top of everything else, you got her dirt cheap! Or better yet, they paid you to take her! I just don't live right.

Gry2Yng
Dec. 6, 2002, 06:38 PM
Most TB pedigrees with calculate dosage for you at the bottom. It basically relates back to all of the "great" stallions. When they are truly great, they become Chefs-de-Race (Masters of the Breed). They are the stallions which have had a remarkable influence over the last century. They are assigned to one or more categories, Brilliant, Intermediate, Classic, Solid or Professional. Which is the spectrum of sprint to stamina. This article is called Dosage in a Nutshell.

http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/

free
Dec. 6, 2002, 07:15 PM
Gry2Yng....thanks, a load of information there!

Fred
Dec. 6, 2002, 07:46 PM
re dosage index - it's kind of like which came first, chicken or the egg?
what I mean by that is, yes - the horses these days tend to be bred for speed (and some might argue for unsoundness - with the Mr Prospector - Northern Dancer nick)
One of the reasons you don't see too many Solids and Professionals in pedigrees is that those Chefs de Race who fit in those categories are now in the 5th and 6th and farther back generations.
But (in my longwinded way) what I am trying to say is, that I believe that the ability of a TB to go a distance is more a measure of it's training than its pedigree. A horse that has strong speed , Intermediate and Classic numbers in its dosage index no doubt could go a distance if he were trained to do so. But if they don't write the races, the horses don't run those races, and the future chef de race will be Speed, Intermediate or Classic horses, by definition. Could they have gone a distance? we won't know, but I would say probably.
Names to look for? I love Nasrullah, Double Jay, My Babu, Royal Charger, Turn To, Princequillo, Somethingroyal, Discovery, Windfields, etc.
ps the "blocky' Mr Prospectors - it's a good chance the blockiness is coming from Northern Dancer, In the '80's one of the most popular crosses was Northern Dancer to Mr Prospector daughters, sons of Mr P to daughters of ND etc....

MsRidiculous
Dec. 6, 2002, 08:42 PM
Looking at Buckpasser's page is incredibly freaky.. he looks EXACTLY like Charlie!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Now I'm gonna have to figure out Charlie's registered name and info.. he's gotta have Buckpasser in there somewhere.

-Amanda

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find.. you get what you need.
http://www.geocities.com/rising_star_farm/horses.html

Gry2Yng
Dec. 7, 2002, 06:04 AM
Timing is everything. I was looking at the dosage on my 10 year old and would have expected some Solid or Professional because his grandsire is Sir Ivor because he won the Epsom Derby which is a mile and 1/2. Yet he is I,C - as you said because his foals run short races, not because they couldn't run long ones. Thanks for the perspective.

I just looked up Eros' pedigree. He is Turn-to top and bottom. Turn-to has a fantastic sport horse progeny record.

free
Dec. 7, 2002, 09:19 AM
Fred.....GREAT POST! It really helped put things in perspective. That is great thinking. More people should be aware of this instead of taking the strengths at face value. Thank you so much.

free
Dec. 7, 2002, 03:20 PM
Have any of these sires turned out any Eventing prodigy? 1. Chieftain 2. Copelan 3. Crozier

Thank you.

Fred
Dec. 8, 2002, 05:34 AM
after I wrote that I was worried that perhaps it came across as too bossy and opinionated (which of course I am!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
but until I switched to breeding Thoroughbreds as 'sport horses' I bred for the race track, and Thoroughbreds and their pedigrees are about the most interesting thing in the world to me.
I bred A Fine Romance to be a race horse, and knew little at the time about TB's for sport pedigrees...but of course, that too has become an obsession.
I'd appreciate it if you had a look at his pedigree.
at
www.goldhopefarm.com/tamaracklanefarm (http://www.goldhopefarm.com/tamaracklanefarm)

Gry2Yng
Dec. 8, 2002, 06:27 AM
Sir Gaylord (Turn-to), Double Jay and My Babu. I don't have a Double Jay, but do have one with Sir Gaylord and one horse with My Babu.

You have a lovely stallion. Sadly (or not since it keeps my pocketbook fuller, I don't have a mare). He has a great jump. I would love to learn the things you know about breeding TB's both sport and track. It is something I find fascinating.

The picutre of Willow and her foal is so beautiful and sad. What a pretty mare.

War Admiral
Dec. 8, 2002, 07:53 AM
Agree with all Fred said! What a gorgeous stallion. Thanks Fred for the info on N. Dancer/Mr. P cross - there is a big gap in my knowledge in the 80s when I wasn't paying much attention - to me the N. Dancers were blocky in a "different way" - you would look at a N. Dancer and think "field hunter".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But if they don't write the races, the horses don't run those races, and the future chef de race will be Speed, Intermediate or Classic horses, by definition. Could they have gone a distance? we won't know, but I would say probably.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely my issue! The racing industry is breeding for sprints now. That means smaller, quicker out of the gate, and - dare I say - more QH'y. Wish we could think of a way to get them writing distance races again... Sigh... The kind of TB we need is not what they are breeding right now. I got lucky and found mine, and it's still possible to do, but it's getting tougher. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

free
Dec. 8, 2002, 08:06 AM
since I haven't been on this BB very long (some people may say too long) I did not realize that you were the owner of "A Fine Romance". You should change your username to "Lucky". Some people get it all!

Had already looked up his pedigree with dreams of breeding my mare to him.

free
Dec. 8, 2002, 08:18 AM
In all of your opinions.....we are looking (with limited funds) for an Eventing prospect. What would you look for in a horse's pedigree if you wanted something that would go distance, have a good mind, jump and move well, carry a large rider, and have a tendancey to be sound?

Thank you.

War Admiral
Dec. 8, 2002, 08:44 AM
Look for something w/ liberal crosses into Anglo-Irish bloodlines. Pretty much all the bloodlines we've discussed are viable.

But the bottom line is, bloodlines are *not* everything. If you are a bloodstock snob, which I freely admit that I am, they give you "braggin' rights", but you need to look at the horse as an individual. Conformation and type will tell you as much as bloodlines will. If you find a horse of the *type* you like, your next question may well be, "what's the pedigree" but when I have my practical hat on (as opp. to my snob hat!), it's really more useful as background info. A Turn-To will have a *tendency* to be like this, a Ribot will have a *tendency* to be that. But there are always exceptions that prove the rule.

You can make a fatal mistake trying to buy a horse on pedigree alone. I look at type first, and if it has a cool pedigree, that's a bonus.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

free
Dec. 8, 2002, 09:38 AM
Lizviola...you are so right and I do have that tucked away in my head, but these bloodline studies are so fascinating that I tend to get carried away. But while there is value in the study of genetics, so many other influences can alter it.

JDufort
Dec. 9, 2002, 04:21 AM
Been away for a few days - what a fun thread to return to...

Adamsmon - in one of the first posts, you made reference to Cox's Ridge as a good influence. Tell me more.

Cox's Ridge sired Vanlandingham, 1985 Eclipse Winner ($1,4M lifetime earnings) who sired our guy - Diamondham (better known as Grade 2 event horse Northlight)

What do know about other successes traced to Cox's Ridge?

Jeanne

Karma
Dec. 9, 2002, 03:59 PM
on my mare Free.
She is 16h, sound and was rather inexpensive. Shame I know next to nothing about TB bloodlines.

Karma

haligator
Dec. 9, 2002, 05:14 PM
Hi All,
I've tracked several eventing bloodlines. The Speak John/John Alden sire line is very successful. Speak John is in Over the Limit's pedigree (a 'grandparent'). Alden's Image (by John Alden) was second in the 1993 Rolex CCI***. I also believe Sara Kozumplik has a horse she competed at the two and three star level that was by John Alden.

I owned Alden's Way (by John Alden) until this past year (I got an offer I couldn't refuse from the perfect home). But, I still have Alden's Way's soon to be two year-old filly, Grade A. Fancy (aka Xena). Xena is already 16.3 and built like the proverbial outhouse. She has taken to jumping in and out of the pastures for fun (and the fence is about 4'6") so I think that Speak John/John Alden jumping ability is coming through!

Hallie McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC

Robby Johnson
Dec. 9, 2002, 05:43 PM
you just had to post that, didn't you haligator! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

re: Mr. Prospector ... I don't know much but I will say that Rhodey descends from him on the sire lines on both sides of his pedigree. He is by Press Card by Fappiano by MP on top, out of a mare named Unlimited Prospect by Crafty Prospector by MP.

He is 17hh, sort of rangy.

Fappiano also sired Unbridled (also about 17hh) who sired a neat horse (also about 17hh) that Aaron Vale rides at Grand Prix. I can't think of his name but I saw him go at Kentucky this summer. He looks a lot like Rhodey. Press Card was/is just 16.1, but he is out of a Never Bend mare.

Robby

I see a stairway so I follow it down
Into the belly of a whale
Where my secrets echo all around ...

Fred
Dec. 10, 2002, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
since I haven't been on this BB very long (some people may say too long) I did not realize that you were the owner of "A Fine Romance". You should change your username to "Lucky". Some people get it all!

Had already looked up his pedigree with dreams of breeding my mare to him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


thank you very much! I do feel lucky.
back to the subject - as important as pedigree is (and in TB race breeding it is very important - at least if you breed to sell),
I think the individual is the important thing. A sound, sane, brave indivual - and if he's beautiful too that's great.
When I was breeding racehorses, I was still breeding individuals, and I know I was breeding to/for a specific type.
I remember the morning that the advertising photo of Brave Shot(GB) arrived in the mail. I was in the barn doing stalls, ripped open the envelope, and my first thought was "whew, this horse can jump". It was a conformation photo of a race horse stallion - who no doubt never saw a jump in his life - and I wasn't breeding jumpers either - but his shoulder angle, neck set, beautiful springy back and huge powerful hindquarter... I loved him! Then I flipped the picture over to see his pedigree.. and he was a beautifully bred horse, and that family continues to be one of the most important and influential in TB racing (APIndy, Summer Squall etc)
My mare who was A Fine Romance's dam was extremely beautiful, a tough, hardknocking race horse who ran 61 times , well bred,by a Double Jay horse out of a Nasrullah mare. In looks she was so much like Robby's beautiful Willow. That classic, elegant refined mare - but again, with the huge shoulder and hip angles. She too was a very substantial mare who 'could have' jumped if anyone had ever tried.
Now I think it was the Aga Khan who supposedly bred only on pedigree without looking at conformation ... but I guess he could afford to make mistakes!
The rest of us have to look at the whole package, but I would emphasise the qualities of the individual when buying. When breeding I think you want to look at both. The reason a horse may be prepotent for producing a certain type of individual is because he/she is breeding true to type. If you look at not just the parents but also the grandparents you will get a clearer idea of what you are producing.
Oh I *could* get so boring! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I better go do stalls now, nobody is going to do them for me today!
more later on Fappiano (I loved him!) Crafty Prospector (very good horse) , Never Bend (loved him) etc...

mountain girl
Dec. 12, 2002, 04:21 PM
I think we are lucky that A Fine Romance came to the sport horse world instead of the racing world he was bred for. He is that perfect quintessential thoroughbred type that is on all our old english prints, but does not seem to be found in real life anymore. When I saw his video I was like "ahhh, I found him at last!" I think his athletic movement is perfect for xctry and dressage. The fact that he does so well at hunters tells me that true athleticism is always recognized as beautiful and classic in any venue.

It is cool when you see the type you like and then you find out after that the bloodlines back it up.

I had that kind of luck with my ottb mare, who is a great competitor and jumper,and who turned out to be sired by Stagedoor Johnny, a prepotent race and sport sire.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

free
Dec. 17, 2002, 07:06 PM
While out horse shopping last weekend I finally saw the 'In Reality' bloodlines in action. The first horse had In Reality on both the top and bottom and had one of the most honest, cooperative minds that I have witnessed in a long while. Everything posted about that line shines through in that horse! My son was really impressed.

However at the same barn there was another horse that caught MY fancy. He was very intelligent (you should have seen those ears working) and (that day) tested the rider (but I was assured that he is not normally like that). You could tell that once he saw the jump, he loved it and was going for it and really used that hind end. He made me wish that I was riding! He seemed like a real character and could be a lot of fun. His racing name was Big Bad Leroy and if anyone can find his bloodlines, I would appreciate it if you could explain for me where he gets his personality, etc......

Thank you.
free

Maple Shade
Dec. 17, 2002, 07:22 PM
Here's Leroy's pedigree attached (if it will let me do it). I would also love to hear any theories about the personality!

Margaret/Maple Shade Farm

barbaraG
Dec. 18, 2002, 06:05 PM
That's a gang of aces!

BarbaraG
GWV /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

free
Dec. 18, 2002, 06:49 PM
BarbaraG....don't stop there. That's just a tease! Explain. PLEASE!

barbaraG
Dec. 19, 2002, 04:44 PM
Lots of other folks on this board know more of bloodlines than I do, but I do know this:

Lots of upper level Event Horses have Turn-To somewhere.

Gallant Man and Damacus were Great classic flat racers. Kentucky Derby Etc.

Bruce Davidson had a horse named J. J. Babu, related to My Babu

SomethingRoyal was the dam, not only of Sir Gaylord, no small potatoes as a horse, but also of Secretariat!

If you wanted to trace bloodlines, more winners would be easy to find.

Hope this helps. Like I said, other folks here study bloodlines for real....could probably tell you how many times Secretariat blew his nose. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But this horse could be the Real Deal for Eventing! You might find someone over on the Breeding BB to give you more imformation.

Happy Trials,

BarbaraG /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
GWV

More thought, if you have a chance to Buy this horse and are a good rider and he passes all the "normal stuff" I say "don't let him get away!"

free
Dec. 19, 2002, 04:50 PM
BarbaraG.....Thank you.

barbaraG
Dec. 19, 2002, 04:54 PM
Let us know how it goes!! And if you could post a picture of him, that would great!

Luck,

BarbaraG
GWV

EvntRydr
Dec. 24, 2002, 07:38 AM
Bull Lea
Nasrulla
Double Jay
Native Dancer

All of these show up prominently in some of the top TB eventer pedigrees.

For myself, I like to see lots of lines to Man O' War, yes I'm a major Manny freak, but all the horses I have had that jump the pants off of me trace to him multiple times. They seem to have tons of heart, scope, and brains.

I think my boy has some pretty nice lines... what do YOU guys think? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wishes Pedigree (aka Colony Gold) (http://www.dmtc.com/p/9378.php)

Wishes Conformation (http://tb-trainer.com/Wishes/conformation.jpg)

`u wo `du hi sogwili
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Panic, chaos, disorder... my job here is done."

free
Dec. 24, 2002, 08:46 AM
EvntRydr....beautiful horse! Where are you at in VA. and where will Wish be entered next?

EvntRydr
Dec. 24, 2002, 09:06 AM
Thanks! I luff my Wisher man. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm very proud of him and think he will be a wonderful eventer. Too bad Moo thinks he's the perfect show hunter. *GRIN* /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I am hoping to begin his serious show career next year. I haven't picked his opening show. I would like to open him at Novice in a friendly, inviting HT in the NoVA are. I'm just outside of DC and you?

Any thoughts on where we might start out? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

`u wo `du hi sogwili
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Panic, chaos, disorder... my job here is done."

Moo
Dec. 24, 2002, 09:09 AM
Dude we're super gonna show hunters whether you like it or not /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"We came, we rode, we conquered."
*Member of the TB Clique, Young Trainers clique and the Disgruntled College Student Clique.*

free
Dec. 24, 2002, 09:15 AM
EvntRyder....I am on the farm in Newberry, FL. but my son (who owns the horses) is in Middleburg VA. (down here now until March).

Wow!...to have a horse that can do both.

EvntRydr
Dec. 26, 2002, 11:34 AM
I am very blessed to have finally found 'him'. There is a reason I named him "Wishes Come True". I think he has a fabulous brain and good deal of talent too. But I'm prolly prejudiced! *GRIN*

Middleburg is very close to me. However, I wish we were down there with you in Florida enjoying the sun and shows!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

`u wo `du hi sogwili
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Panic, chaos, disorder... my job here is done."

CdnRider
Dec. 26, 2002, 09:11 PM
I would love to know what you think pedigree-wise of my horse. I bought him as a yearling and had no idea what his pedigree was until I got the papers. He isn't registered though but I stuck him on the delmar site anyhow. delmar (http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree/)
his name is Brady.

I have a confirmation shot from when he was 2.

I have to say though he's been super levelheaded. He was broke in late august. I did most of the work myself (spent 2 weeks with my coach to work out some crowhopping). I can ride him bareback down the road, go on hack all by himself, he's been great so far. So I am really happy about that.

LazyRRanch
Mar. 13, 2014, 02:09 PM
Howdy,
re: "I think that the general rule is that the dam's influence is considered to be more important nowadays - but we are all so trained to think of "sires" that we still do it even though we know better."
I sent you a private note, please let me know if you wish to discuss this topic in more depth.
cordialments/best regards,
Lazy R Ranch (mark)

LAZ
Mar. 13, 2014, 02:50 PM
Howdy,
re: "I think that the general rule is that the dam's influence is considered to be more important nowadays - but we are all so trained to think of "sires" that we still do it even though we know better."
I sent you a private note, please let me know if you wish to discuss this topic in more depth.
cordialments/best regards,
Lazy R Ranch (mark)

This thread is from 2002. :D Free hasn't posted on here much after she had some health issues.

Winding Down
Mar. 13, 2014, 07:19 PM
:lol:

A 12 year bump!!