UPDATE: Let the discussion commence: Alfalfa vs. Everything Else

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok folks. I'm about ready to call it quits, sell all my (one) horses and 'get me' to a nunnery (thank you Hamlet.)

I've read that alfalfa is the best thing since sliced bread as well as that it's just like feeding your horse poison.

Being from the midwest, I've always been taught it's the "staff of life"; my horse loves it, his performance and health are excellent.

What's the story, folks. As I'm more confused than ever. At the moment, I'm thinking that I want to continue with alfalfa, but I'm going to change my feed (grain) to one specifically formulated for horses fed alfalfa.

What'r your thoughts?

Just a thought...
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Sep. 13, 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok folks. I'm about ready to call it quits, sell all my (one) horses and 'get me' to a nunnery (thank you Hamlet.)

I've read that alfalfa is the best thing since sliced bread as well as that it's just like feeding your horse poison.

Being from the midwest, I've always been taught it's the "staff of life"; my horse loves it, his performance and health are excellent.

What's the story, folks. As I'm more confused than ever. At the moment, I'm thinking that I want to continue with alfalfa, but I'm going to change my feed (grain) to one specifically formulated for horses fed alfalfa.

What'r your thoughts?

Just a thought...
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Sep. 13, 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

[tle]

Well, I may not be the best person to explain the precise details in this.. but here are my thoughts anyway.

My mare loves her alfalfa too. However, knowing that alfalfa is high in calories as well as not "right" in the Calcium-Phosphorus balance, I try to limit the amount she gets. Think of it this way... a horse was genetically and physiologically engineered to graze for most of the day. Grazing on alfalfa would entail throwing off the Ca/Phos balance as well as making them incredibly fat from all the calories!

At least that's how I look at it.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[RubysMom]

Being in SoCal, alfalfa IS the hay of choice out here. That being said, my horse is on straight grass hay, (bermuda).
I stopped feeding alfalfa to her 5 yrs ago and never looked back.
She looks and feels wonderful, with a shiny, dappled coat and great weight, but she's an easy keeper anyway.
What I like about grass hay is they eat it slower and it lasts way longer, I think it's a more natural way to feed. Horses tend to scarf down alfalfa hay in about an hour, whereas the same amount of grass hay lasts 3 or 4 hours.
I know many horses on straight alfalfa that look great and perform great, so it's not POISON, lol!
I just choose to keep my older semi-retired mare on grass, as it's less of a strain on her kidneys.
If you have a horse in hard work (or a hard keeper), and supplement alfalfa along with grass hay, I think that is a great compromise.
Of course they are not as enthusiastic about grass hay, lol, but that's not a bad thing.
Just my 2 cents......:)

[JB]

Alfalfa is neither good nor bad in and of itself, but good or bad or "eh" on an individual basis. Some areas of the country can't grow anything BUT alfalfa, so you don't have a choice. Given a choice though, I would choose not to feed it.

Pound for pound, A (and any legume hay for that matter) has more calories than grass hay - about 200 calories more per pound. This means if you have a relatively easy keeper, you cannot feed enough A to meet his roughage needs and not drastically overdo his calorie needs. If you have a hard keeper who cannot possibly eat enough grass hay (or won't), A is a good choice to mix in.

A is also quite inverted in the ca:phos ratio - MUCH more calcium. This means that if you don't feed something to provide more phosphorous (and it's more complicated than that), you are doing harm by putting that much calcium and no balance into the system. Some people feed bran to help counteract this. But you can still get into trouble because even if your ca:phos is balanced, if you have too much (overall) ca going in, you've messed up the ca:magnesium ratio too, and so on, and so on...

A is very palatable - probably any horse will eat it. If it's all you can get, and it's GOOD quality, there is nothing wrong with it given the above explanations.

Grass hay has fewer calories so you can feed more to keep them chewing. Some grass hay has a pretty idea ca:phos ration, some are lower in ca than ideal, but there are several ca:phos free choice supplements out there to help balance that.

It's really all a matter of choosing between/among lesser evils.

[Oldenburg Mom]

according to research I've done... granted it's on the net...alfalfa (let's shorten it to ALF) is equivalent to good pasture, but LOWER in protein. (No, I couldn't believe it either.)

Yes, RRB has been fed straight ALF for years now... and he seems happy as a clam. But issues are starting to crop up as apparently it is not wise to feed it to yearlings.

Yet again, it's not the ALF that's at issue, per se, it's the nutrient balance. THAT's what I believe the issue is.. and that's what you're saying (I hope) JB.

SO, pound for pound, it may be a great choice... but only if you are feeding a "grain" which gives balance to the diet.

BTW, I wanted to do a poll ... see who feeds what. BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW... waaaaaaaa.

Just a thought...
KT

[TrakHack]

My mare gets gets grass hay and a tiny bit of grain, with alfalfa cubes as a supplement when I feel she could use a bit more weight. She's an easy keeper, but we're still working out the right balance of work and food to keep her at an ideal weight.

I like the nearly all-day grazing effects that grass hay has, and so does my horse. If she were to get alfalfa instead of grass hay, she'd get less volume but eat it faster. Miss Mare has let me know that she prefers to have food at ALL times, if possible /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

As an aside, I heard a piece on the radio about blister beetles in alfalfa, and how they are toxic to horses, cattle, and sheep. It seems with the drought we're having there are more blister beetles showing up in alfalfa around here. Anybody know about blister beetles in general? I'm a bit curious.

No one can teach riding so well as a horse.
-C.S. Lewis

[Heather]

First, I know all the scietific, calcium/phos ratio stuff, but admit I don't properly understand it. My reasons for avoiding alfalfa are more anecddotal. For the first 15-ish years I was involved in horses, all my horses, and all the horses I knew got a mixture of alfalfa and oat hay (usualluy one flake of each, 3x a day). Horses prone to being prokers got less alfalfa.

It was hardly poison, and everybody was shiny and kept their weight pretty well. We also had a lot of belly aches, gas colics, and other digestion problems.

Then the first inklings that alfalfa might not be the hay of choice began to filter, and a friend of mine who was desperate to help her chronic colicer took him off it, put him on grass hay. Voila, no more tummy problems. (As an aside, she's become such an anti-alfalfa nazi, that she wigged out when I said my guys get alf pellets as part of their grain). Same thing worked for all the other tummy-problem-ponies in the barn but one (and in retrospect, I suspect he had ulcers--he was that type).

When I moved back east, everybody went on grass hay, and I've been very happy, and because of that, I think I probably wouldn't feed alfalfa again unless desperate (although the round bales I get for winter always have a bit of alf in them). They hold their weight better, seem less gassy, and I too like the fact that they can munch all day, not scarf and then stand around.

My other anecdotal thought on alfalfa is I knew several warmblood breeders who refused to feed it to their babies--felt that the calcium caused too-rapid growth, and led to OCD, growth plate fractures, and other problems.

[TrakHack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:

My other anecdotal thought on alfalfa is I knew several warmblood breeders who refused to feed it to their babies--felt that the calcium caused too-rapid growth, and led to OCD, growth plate fractures, and other problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can anyone refer me to a website or thread that has more information about OCD in general? I am not a breeder, nor have I owned a young horse, but I do know a person who has got a Heinz 57 who will likely develop as a warmblood will and she feeds him a LOT of alfalfa cubes. And he's in a stall most of the day. From what little I have read, doing these things would encourage OCD...

No one can teach riding so well as a horse.
-C.S. Lewis

[Oldenburg Mom]

http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/animaldisease/g1239.htm

Just a thought...
KT

[hunterpa]

It's so incredibly high in calcium, it throws the ca:p ration WAYYYYYYYY out of wack (as someone has previously stated). It's so incredibly rich and tasty that horses suck it down like candy (and understandably so...). It's also high in protein which helps to make our horses really really fat and when given free choice... well you can figure out what happens. Also, in lower quality alfalfa hay you have to watch for blister beetles (they have a toxic outer shell which can actually poison and kill horses). Generally, I like to stick with a good grass hay (ie timothy, orchardgrass...) that my horse can have free choice, then supplement it with grain, to provide him with the proper nutrients, depending on how much work he's in.

~Bre~
**Proud Member of the Appy Clique**

[lilblackhorse]

High in Calcium, but I feed pellets (only a very small can a day) balanced with rice bran. I had a hard time keeping weight on Will when I first got him, and his muscle tone was just not great. Not until I got him on high fat Nutrena Compete, with the alf/rice bran and oil that he has looked awesome.

Someone else told me about the calcium causing problems--we are balanced, but I wonder, as he is arthritic in his hock-from and injury mind you, but I wonder if I should cut back on the alf???? Anybody?? Just curious-he looks awesome-wouldn't feed alf to a hot TB, and have seen terrible effects of folks who feed babies alf exclusively-shouldn't do that.

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

[hunterpa]

I would just cut out the alfalfa alltogether. Your horse has gained the weight and looks great. Just keep giving him a cup of oil a day to keep his coat shiny, if you want to. Regular grass hay, fed free choice, and the proper amount of grain (depending on his weight and workload) should be sufficient to keep him in good weight. I wouldn't know if the calcium build up in his joints is do the alfalfa... there's a chance it could be but I would doubt it. It would definitly be cheaper to quite buying those alfalfa pellets though, and it's not going to hurt him if you quit feeding it.

~Bre~
**Proud Member of the Appy Clique**

[Sonesta]

At my barn, we give NO ALFALFA at all to horses younger than 2 and no alfalfa at all to mares with foals on their side. And, because of the blister beetle problem, I have a rule at my barn that if a boarder wishes to have her horse feed alfalfa, then we will feed it, but the BOARDER must buy it AND bring it to the barn, so that if there are beetles in it, WE were not the ones who picked it out.

I do use it occaisionally as a treat to some of my mares while they are in foal or to assist (with all the oil and rice bran) in fattening up a very thin horse. But we use coastal bermuda of a very high quality for most horses.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) Hanoverian, Knabstrupper & Arabian Sport Horses

"Find something you love & call it work."

[Oldenburg Mom]

but someone recently recommended Buckeye brand feeds for horses. I called them and what did I find out? Well, they have different feeds depending upon what FORAGE you're feeding... This seems to me like the ideal situation: the first thing you have to do is inspect and rate your hay. Then they recommend a feed, based on the food value of your hay.

Doesn't this seem to be a solution? You can feed whatever you like, be alf or tim or orchard grass, and your sweet feed or pellets, will make up the balance, nutritionally.

Plus, I've read that the DOD issues are due to OVER feeding an imbalanced diet.

You know, anyone who says owning a horse is easy is out of their mind. AND, anyone who says riding is "just sitting there" is out of their mind too.

Just a thought...
KT

[JB]

DOD/OCD are *generally* due to over feeding/restricted exercise problems, not *generally* higher protein feeds. A good quality grass hay can in fact be HIGHER in protein than a lesser (but still good) quality alfalfa. There is also a genetic predisposition to OCD, and it appeard that warmbloods (again in general) have a higher incidence of OCD, a large percentage of which never causes a lameness problem.

It is still never a good idea to feed an unbalance ca:phos diet to youngsters, regardless of whether it's too much ca or too much phos (or too little copper or whatever). It has been (anecdotally?) said that WBs just don't do as well on alfa as do other types of horses.

KT, I think IF you have good alfa and you want to feed it, AND you have some way of balancing out the roughage requirement, caloric requirement, and mineral requirements, then you are going to be fine. Many people do this out of necessity. Second best would be an alfa/mix (T&A is popular), and best IMHO would be an all grass hay diet. I personally don't (and have never) feed alfa, and won't ever, unless there are small quantities in a grass mix or I have a very hard keeper. Alfa pellets are a different story - you probably aren't feeding 10 or 15lb of the stuff - a couple in all likelihood, and with an otherwise all grass hay diet, that is fine.

And KT don't worry, owning the beasts gets a little easier each decade! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lilblackhorse - I think I commented on this earlier, but I do believe that in SOME CASES, too much calcium can have a negative effect on arthritis. Calcium goes to heat, and arthritis is inflammation (heat). Calcium is deposited in areas of heat, potentially contributing to bone spurs and the like.

[Oldenburg Mom]

You're basically saying what I thought.

It's not one part of the diet, or another, or this or that. It's the whole thing.

HOWEVER, rather than take a chance, I am going to have the baby on grass hay... which I've found from, I hope, a good supplier.

Guess what? It's more expensive than the western alf I buy.

Man, in this sport, you can't win for losing.

Just a thought...
KT

[Ladybay]

I agree that grass hay is best for the horses. My mare was thriving on timothy/grass mix hay and pasture 24/7 with hardly any grain. I recently moved her to a new place (also 24/7 pasture, but pretty grassless) with the understanding that grass hay would be availible for the horses at all times. Well we found out way too late (after she had already moved in) that there was NO grass hay AT ALL on the farm. They ONLY feed alfalfa. OK. So now its a week later, thank GOD my horse didn't colic from the sudden feed change that was completely out of my control. I am over my anger towards the owners for mis-informing us about the hay, alfalfa is FINE because the barn is great besides for this and the fact that the water troughs are often empty. (AAARGG!!!!!) My question is, what can I feed my horse to balance out the calcium/phosphorous ratio??? I know it needs to be between 3:1 and 1:1, and alfalfa alone is like 6:1. She gets 2 1/2 cups wet cob, Horse Gaurd vitamins, and Biotin once a day. The horse gaurd has about a 1:1 CA/Phos. ratio.

Thanks!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

call buckeye... website www.buckeyenutrition.com (http://www.buckeyenutrition.com)

Just a thought...
KT

[SGray]

blister beetles scare the *not out of me

[hunterprincez]

All my horses are currently on free choice high quality coastal hay. The two TBs and the yearling get one flake of alfalfa with their dinner. All this talk of not feeding Alfalfa to youngsters has made me question if she should be getting it. Is the one flake enough to cause a problem?

[flypony74]

I feed only a good quality grass hay to my guys (usually orchard grass/timothy), because I feel like it is more important to have the bulk (constant access to forage) than a small amount of high cal stuff. They are outside 12+ hours per day on pasture, with hay in the run in if they want it, and they basically have free choice when they are in. Horses were designed to graze, so I like to keep their digestive system going properly.

Someone else mentioned Buckeye feeds...I feed the Cadence formula, and people often ask me what I feed my horses, because they look great. Even my 17hh monster TB maintains beautifully on this diet, with a very reasonable amount of grain (about 3lbs 2x day).

"Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die tomorrow." -- James Dean

[GotSpots]

Feed alfalfa = the Spotted One has a case of the runs like a football team in spring training. He does not adjust to it either: this doesn't go away after a few days. Constant green-apple quickies.

Feed timothy or coastal or bermuda grass = the Spotted One produces scoopable poop.

Put me firmly in the no-alfalfa camp. I feed 2-3 flakes of hay B-L-D, plus oats and some sweet feed, depending on his turn-out regime, what work he's in, and his degree of fitness.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

I'm neither pro nor con alfalfa hay. Last winter all I could get was alfalfa hay and everyone was fine. I just adjusted their diets based on the fact that they were getting more calories per lb., etc. etc.

Actually, given the fact that there is a finite amount of food that any horse can physically ingest I would think that if you had a horse that was a hard keeper a judicious amount of alfalfa could help that horse gain the needed weight. After all, all things being equal, legumes pack more calories per lb. than grass hays.

I had an A/O hunter that was raised on alfalfa, corn and Calf Manna (this was 20 years ago before you soluble carbohydrate Nazis /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif faint). He won on the line and in the show ring and retired sound as the day he was born despite a strenuous show schedule.

As I remarked on another post it is really a lot more important to figure out how many grams/kilograms/microgram etc. of each nutrient your horse receives rather than percentages and ratios.

Or, you can do as I do, and buy commercially prepared feeds that are formulated to be fed with a particular forage such as Buckeye or Purina Strategy.

Nina whobalancedwaytoomanyfeedformulasincollege

[Spot]

and that was to the youngsters, mares in foal, mares with foals at side, weanlings, etc.

I dont know if the TB's assimilate the protein levels in the alfalfa hay better / differently than do WB or other breeds, but I do know that we have never had a known problem with blister beetles in this area, nor have we had joint problems or any developmental problems as a result of feeding the alfalfa.

When we had the horses at home, because the new hay field was planted in rather drought conditions, the clover and alfalfa thrived and the timothy did not. When the hay was cut, it was almost exclusively alfalfa/clover which wasnt exactly my first choice if I had been buying it,
but when it is yours, you cut it and feed it.

I never had problem with colic, digestive upsets, OCD, or anything, and the horses all loved it and looked wonderful on it.

Of course, when I then started boarding them out after we sold the farm, they did look rather miffed at the grass/timothy hay they were expected to eat rather than what they were used to ...

At all of the TB breeding farms in our area, alfalfa is the hay of choice for mares in foal, breeding stallions and the yearlings and weanlings being prepped for the sales.

Perhaps it is a geographical issue and a breed issue - some breeds simply dont do as well on it as others do.

"Spot"

[hunterpa]

There really isn't much you can do to balance the Ca:P ratio, the only thing you could do would be to supplement Phosphorus, but I WOULD NOT recommend that. It's better not to try and balance it yourself, you could REALLY hurt your horse. I would recommend just trying to feed grass hay, it's much much safer... btw 3:1 Ca:P ratio is a little high, ideally it should be about 1.5:1

~Bre~
**Proud Member of the Appy Clique**

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunterprincez:
All my horses are currently on free choice high quality coastal hay. The two TBs and the yearling get one flake of alfalfa with their dinner. All this talk of not feeding Alfalfa to youngsters has made me question if she should be getting it. Is the one flake enough to cause a problem?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One flake a day (3 or 4lb I'm guessing?) should be fine.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one who likes Alf. Personally, I think it's great.

HOWEVER, can anyone comment on whether these issues might be breed related???? I find that hard to believe, as biology is biology. But, hey (or should I say 'hay'???) what the heck do I know?

Just a thought...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

So you're on it too?

How did you like the way they handled the "hay" questionnaire, and what did your hay score and... well, how expensive do you find it. Do you feed the sweet or pellet?

Just a thought...
KT

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KT 1900:


HOWEVER, can anyone comment on whether these issues might be breed related???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually haven't ready any scientific reports on it, but have heard several vets and owners/breeders say that WBs just don't seem to handle alfalfa well. I don't know (don't think they do either) if it's the protein, the calcium, or something else entirely. Pony breeds also, but I think that probably has more to do with calories than anything else. I'd love to know if there is any formalized research on breed intolerance to alfalfa (or legumes in particular?)

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:

I'd love to know if there is any formalized research on breed intolerance to alfalfa (or legumes in particular?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too!

Paging all vets,... paging all vets

Hey, a vet student'll do too.

Just a thought...
KT

[elnachick]

Back in my younger days, in the midst of my 4-H contests, when I knew my facts and figures like a little encyclopedia, I remember having a clinic with a livestock nutritionalist and her emphasizing quite clearly, alfalfa is for dairy cattle. I also still remember reading an article as a young girl about a horse suffering with choke from wolfing down leafy alfalfa, resulting in pneumonia, and ending in death. I've never fed it to my horses, most likely never will. I don't think the stuff's evil, I just don't think nutritionally (nor structurally, roughage-speaking) that it's best for horses. Yet the regional point is a good one - where I live in CO it's the only thing that grows, it's what everyone seems to be fed.

[Bensmom]

at the Univ of Florida's vet school.

We went down to pick up the horse that had been rushed to G'ville on Saturday, due to a displaced colon from a gas colic and I took the opportunity to quiz the treating vet fairly extensively.

I was stunned when she wanted the horse in question kept on alfafa. We feed lots of grass hay (alicia bermuda) as a general rule and so I questioned her about what I've recently begun doing with Ben. He gets 3-4 flakes of grass hay and one of alfafa when he's in his stall during the day. Out in his paddock, he is on what little grass we have and grass hay.

She said this was "perfect." What she liked about including the one flake of alfafa was that it really pulled a lot of water to the G.I. tract and kept everything moving well.

Ben's water consumption has more than doubled since we began doing this -- I added the one flake originally because he was jealous of his friend's hay (my trainer's horse is on mostly alfafa because he won't eat the grass hay) and we wanted to give him a treat. This vet heartily endorsed it and also had us add a weekly or 2x weekly bran mash to our schedule, which I also thought was odd, as I've heard good and bad about that as well.

We went over the recommendations with our vet when we returned home, and he was comfortable with the changes, especially since this vet at Florida was an internal medicine specialist and sees waaaaaaay more serious colics that most vets do.

Interesting.

Libby (who told the folks at the vet school that they were wonderful but that I hoped I NEVER had to bring them another horse)

[cbv]

and probabaly would still prefer to feed really good quality grass hay with a little legume in it if I could. And here in the east, until recently, it was fairly plentiful and cheap. However, in Virginia the drought these past two years has made getting good orchard grass very difficult,and Timothy doesn't grow well here in the best of circumstances.

So this past winter I had to get a big load of mixed orchard/alfalfa from Ohio that was quite rich. My guys did great. I went back to grass this summer but recently had to buy a mix that was very heavy in alfalfa and had to make the switch from grass pretty suddenly, which worried me.
However my vet pointed out that when horses have colic surgery they are put on alfalfa cause it is the most digestible....so if you have to make a quick switch going from grass to alfalfa would be better than the other way around.

Now we are back on a more balanced mix...and I would like to stay there, but no longer fear having to feed alfalfa if that is what the winter brings.

[Oldenburg Mom]

We're starting to get a little science in our discussion... let's see if we can get any more.

C'mon. Anyone who knows a vet or vet student on this BB? Erin? Why don't we have a paging system on this bb? (just kidding)

Maybe this is one of the reasons why Mr. RRB has done so well on Alf, especially after his illness last year.

Just a thought...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hold on...

I don't geddit, folks.

If alf is more digestable, and it's pulling more water into the gut, plus it's nutrient dense (like me... I guess... not nutrient, just dense) AND the horses love it.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM???

The caveat here, obviously is the mineral ratio. But heavens, fix it with a grain feed.

Is this just a question of grazing/eating TIME? It seems to me like the answer is a resounding YES.

Just a thought...
KT

[subk]

As I understand it when feeding straight oats the nutritional balance is alfalfa. This is the diet of most racehorses. Today most of us feed "complete" feeds or feeds that have been blended for a certain nutritional makeup and these feeds generally don't NEED the balance provided by alf.

Anyone looking for a great place to research this should check out the website of KY Equne Research, I believe its www.ker.com (http://www.ker.com). They have and excellent library of reasearch papers on-line and a good search engine to find what your interested in.

[Oldenburg Mom]

THANK YOU!!!

And BTW, for anyone who is interested, I just got off the phone with Buckeye.

Amazingly enough, the went through my entire horses' diet, AND recommended their feed, and amounts for the hay he is consuming as well as his work schedule. We must have spent 20 minutes.

Can't say enough nice things about these folks.

Just a thought...
KT

[Sandbarhorse]

All this discussion has gotten me wondering about my feeding program. I really do like Alf. hay, but since my guys get free choice I feed Alf/Tim mix.

My question is, I use Strategy grain and just checked on their website and found the following:
Calcium, minimum % not less than .6%

Calcium, maximum % not more than .9%

Phosphorus, minimum % not less than .60%

Not being good at math by any stretch, can someone tell me what this means and if it's even helpful? Please?!

I don't have the pounds per qt. that I weighed, but the filly gets 1 1/2 qts. 2x a day and the gelding gets 3 overflowing qts. 2x a day.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Haven't a clue about specific numbers, but I called Buckeye and they walked me through exactly what I should be feeding RRB.

THEN I called the KY Equine Research people, who basically said it's been going on--formulated feeds depending upon what hay you're feeding--for quite some time. Surprise! Surprise!

Check out the site mentioned above... do a search for feeding and pick the reports. Whew! Everything you need...

BTW, if I read anything really great, I'll post the link.

Just a thought...
KT

[wanderlust]

A couple of interesting things...

Too much phosphorous is far worse than too much calcium. Phosporous needs to be balanced out with the calcium, and if the ratio is too high on the phosphorous side, the body will strip the bones for the calcium. Too much calcium in general has been rumoured to encourage the growth of enteroliths, but it hasn't been shown that balancing out the ph/ca ratio will change the enterolith-forming process.

Grass hay, especially second/third cuttings, are much more likely culprits of choke and impaction colic than is alfalfa. Why? While alfalfa may be leafy, it also has alot of very rigid stalks, providing more rigid fiber content. The fiber structure of grass hay is anything but rigid.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Are you the other person on my poll who feeds Alf exclusively? (LOL)

Actually, that's good to know.

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. Pasture: 22-26% protein; Good qual alf: 22%.

[Sandbarhorse]

Master Tally that's really interesting. I've always heard that with people, clacium won't be used by the body without adequate Magnesium. I think this may have been part of what JB was alluding to earlier.

Is it possible that formation of enteroliths hasn't been shown because there is not enough magnesium (and/or whatever else may be needed in horses)for the body to use the calcium?

What possible effects, if any, would the excess calcium leaving the body have?

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Are you the other person on my poll who feeds Alf exclusively? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, never took the poll. I have fed it exclusively, in conjunction with oat hay, and in conjunction with grass hay. I now feed about 50/50 with a nice grass hay. However, it is a permanent part of my hard-keeper's diet.

Some people think that alfalfa is the spawn of the devil... and for horses with pre-existing conditions that may have difficulty in processing the higher protein or calcium (i.e. those that have foundered), or super-easy and always-fat easy-keepers, it may be. But I really don't think it deserves the bad rap it has gained.

[xcjumper]

I've always fed some alfalfa to my horses with grass also. Probably 50/50. Never had any problems. But, my new horse has some kindof sensitivity to it. He goes absolutely BONKERS with even one bite. Crazy I know it sounds, but I have experimented and always come up with the same result. Now if I come out to the barn and he's nuts, I will look in his paddock or stall and sure enough he was slipped some Alf accidently. Pain in the rear for me, because the only other alternative at the place I board is Bermuda. Not exactly high in nutrients. So, I have to spend additional $$ on Beet pulp (for weight and CA), Vit/min, and I buy my own Timothy to supplement.

~Run fast, Jump high. What else is there?~

[poltroon]

We feed half alfalfa and half oat hay, and our horses do well on that. We weigh the hay rather than go by "flakes."

Ideally we'd love timothy, but here it can be nearly double the cost of alfalfa, which is cheapest and most plentiful.

Horse Journal did a terrific article on choosing mineral supplements for each hay program a while back.

[JB]

Alfalfa has a sort of laxative effect, so it stands to reason it's good for horses with some colicky problems (once they recover of course) to help and keep things moving along.

KT - of COURSE Buckeye would recommend one of their feeds /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A horse's nutritional balance isn't just about calcium and phosphorus. It's about magnesium, manganese, iron, iodine, copper, selenium, vitamins, and so on and so on. Trying to balance one deficiency with one single product is likely to lead to a deficiency somewhere else. There is a ca:phos ration, a ca:mag ratio, zinc:copper, etc.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Yes, I knew they'd recommend one of their feeds, (that's a big 'duh') but the point is not that they did or didn't, the point is they had one that was complementary if I was feeding orchard or timothy or whatever.

Let's throw this out to everyone:

How did you decide upon which brand of grain you feed?

I'd be willing to bet, and believe me I have NO connection to Buckeye, that most people feed what the seller fed or what the barn feeds or what Grandma fed. I know, because that's what I did. I'm feeding what the former owner fed, not what's necessarily best for RRB and/or his work schedule. AND, I'm not feeding by weight, which is also not correct. Yes, I have to buy a scale /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Is this a pain? YOU BETCHA.

Oh, and BTW, if RRB doesn't get worked on this new Buckeye program, he gets a very slightly different mix. How many are doing that as well?

Also, this is not to criticize ANYONE. I'm discovering this stuff as a new horse owner getting ready to buy a baby, and I'm just sharing what I'm learning. Please don't beat me up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Just a thought...
KT

[MeanderCreek]

I feed a very nice second cut that is probably 75 to 80% alfalfa with Purina Strategy. Prior to this we were on a program of mostly timothy, a little alfalfa, oats and Grow N Win that a Buckeye nutritionist designed. I had quite a lot of problems on that, so we hired an independent nutritionist to go over our program and made some changes.

Most of our babies are Appendix QHs or WBs with LOTS of TB and we have not had any physitis - the oldest ones that grew up on this program are three year olds and several have had thorough prepurchases and we haven't found any evidence of OCD/DODs.

Its been a huge improvement, the only major colic has been due to a congenital defect and two broodmares had a minor one that were most likely due to the foal being in an uncomfortable position. With 20+/- all the time I think that's a pretty low occurance.

Mine spend four to five hours eating each meal and by the time you factor in turn out and working they're eating the majority of the day. They also WILL NOT eat timothy or grass hay anymore, but they drink twice as much per horse that they did before we switched.

My advice for anyone that wants it would be to take a sample of your hay and grain and have it tested. Then, have a private nutritionist evaluate the results and go from there. Heck I've tested grain and had the results come back VERY different from what the tag on the bag said, but at least you'll REALLY know what your horse is getting if you test.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[Daydream Believer]

I'm feeding mostly timothy with a little alfalfa in it. I supplement the weanlings with a flake of alfalfa daily to help with the cal-phos ratio. I'm also feeding Strategy. I chose Strategy after talking to other horse people, my vet, and reading a lot of labels. I like the fact that it is a pellet and that it is meant to be fed with hay versus a complete feed like Equine Junior. I actually have a scale in my feed room and check to be certain I'm feeding the right amount per baby (1% per 100 lbs body weight). So far both babies look good with no epiphysitis or other issues.

I'm not as picky with the big guys as they are not at as much risk as the babies and they are getting the mostly grass mix. One horse gets Equine Senior and the mustang and Conn/TB mare get Triple Crown Lite. I've just started all of them on apple cider vinegar hoping for some beneficial results on fly control and arthritis.

I am still uncertain as to the value of supplementing the babies with minerals at this point, however, many knowledgeable people have suggested that I should. Any opinions? (JB, I been meaning to get back to you for more info but keep putting it off.)

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[Oldenburg Mom]

Great reply. Good issues. A couple of questions:

1.) What problem(s) did you have with Buckeye? Please e-mail me at KT_1900@hotmail.com if you don't feel comfortable broadcasting it here on the BB. I'm particularly interested as I'm about to change my feed, and I'd like to know. AND, RRB is a QH.

2.) What's physitis?
3.) What was your "thorough prepurchases" on your babies?
4.) Where'd you find your nutritionist?
5.) What're you now feeding, as far as grain goes?


Daydream -

1.) What's epiphysitis?

Just a thought...
KT

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How did you decide upon which brand of grain you feed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, I used to feed JB whatever the barn fed. For years that was a local sweet feed. Then they started getting Horseman's Edge sweet feed. Then the vet suggested putting him on 1/2 Purina Equine Sr. Then I bought a baby /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I realized I needed to know a heck of a lot more about nutrition, so I started reading - books, mags, internet, you name it. I learned there is a whole lotta crap being fed to horses, a whole lotta "this bag is different from that bag is different from THAT bag in the same food." I started wanting better, and I found Dynamite. So now both horses get Dynamite grain, vitamins, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What's physitis?
What's epiphysitis? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same thing. The physis is the plate between each joint where the bones meet. It's soft, and as the horse grows, this plate gradually calcifies at the ends of each bone - this is what makes the bones grow in length. "itis" is inflammation, so physitis (or epiphysitis) is imflammation of these plates. This can be caused from trauma (injury, riding too soon/too much), from growing too fast, and a host of other things. In the growth category, this can be caused by too much grain/too little turnout, the wrong kind of grain, etc. Rio had some when I got him at 5 1/2 months - he was being fed a HUGE amount of grain and limited turnout for a few weeks prior to my seeing him. Getting rid of his sweet feed and giving all day turnout fixed him up in no time.

Daydream Believer - No worries, you know where to find me! As for supplementing babies, I think it alllll depends. How good was mom's nutrition, how good is the pasture and hay, how big are they destined to get, etc. I think pony breeds and smaller horses are less likely to need supplementation than larger/heavier horse breeds.

[TrakHack]

Right now I feed what is offered at the barn I board at, but I am happy with that. However, I have heard *wonderful* things about Dynamite, and I would certainly feed it if it was offered at my barn or if I were in a situation where I could easily feed what I want.

No one can teach riding so well as a horse.
-C.S. Lewis

[JB]

Well Sister if that situation ever arises, give me a buzz! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Daydream Believer]

JB,

Thanks for answering that epiphysitis question so well. Much better than I could have for sure! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will be in touch about the dynamite products shortly.

Thanks!

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KT 1900:

3.) What was your "thorough prepurchases" on your babies?

Several ones that have been sold were vetted by their new owners who were kind enough to share the results with me. Hocks, stifles, knees and all ankles have been clean as can be. Of course there could be an OCD hiding in an elbow, but hocks, stifles and ankles are where they're seen the most. All these horses were vetted as two or three year olds.

4.) Where'd you find your nutritionist?

My vet recomended him.

5.) What're you now feeding, as far as grain goes?

Purina Strategy


KT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[Oldenburg Mom]

And, JB, you're in B-I-G trouble if this confuses me more....

B-I-G, M-A-J-O-R L-E-A-G-U-E, H-O-M-E R-U-N T-R-O-U-B-L-E.

JB... either I went to the wrong site, or their site is just plain confusing. Got a good link to someone who does/can explain their system?

Just a thought...
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Aug. 23, 2002 at 10:24 PM.]

[ahf]

I'm getting ready to switch over to an all alfalfa hay diet - as soon as the barn is finished and the horses come home. Not because I want to, but because as cbv stated - the orchard grass here is virginia is dead - and the only thing just about everyone was able to make was alfalfa. And really low yields at that.

Our hay barn project had to be scrapped - so I won't be able to store a large enough amount to get a grass hay trucked in from some other state lucky enough to have rain. I have alfalfa producers on either side of me, so I will be able to purchase in bulk and just go get it by the pick-up load. This also means I can go ahead core a couple of bales and get a full analysis on that cutting - and pay an equine nutritionist to tell me how to balance the ration.

Don't know any other way to do it this winter. At least Virginia does not have a blister beetle problem. I think I read once that one ounce of blister beetles can kill a horse.

[Oldenburg Mom]

But what if you buy from a different supplier? Does that make a difference?

Please update when you get the results!!

Just a thought...
KT

[PonyJumperGRL]

My vet said that horses on a 100% alfalfa diet can develop problems.. I don't remember if it was kidney stones or something within the bladder...I'll ask my mom..

But if you were to look at a horse on 100% alfalfa's pee, it would be much stronger in odor and yellower in color. If that means anything, I don't know. I'm done now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-----------------------------
>AQHA Clique<>Do It Yourself Clique<>Children's Jumper Clique<

[ahf]

Not only do the different cuttings make a difference, different fields and the time of day it was laid down make a difference. THe amount of sugars present vary wildly between hay cut in the am (low) vs. hay cut in the late afternoon (high). THat's why I'm going to negotiate for a large amount of the same cutting, same field so I don't have to continually juggle the grain ration.

We shall see. I will report back.

[This message was edited by ahf on Aug. 24, 2002 at 01:29 AM.]

[Spot]

I had a concern a few years back about enterolith's forming with an alfalfa diet, especially if you were feeding rice bran along with it.
My understanding from talking with the health specialists at the University of Guelph at the time, is that enterolith's are common in California because of the type of alfalfa grown there. It is a minor issue to a totally non existent issue here in our area, because our alfalfa is so much different in composition.

"Spot"

[xcjumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PonyJumperGRL:
My vet said that horses on a 100% alfalfa diet can develop problems.. I don't remember if it was kidney stones or something within the bladder...I'll ask my mom..

But if you were to look at a horse on 100% alfalfa's pee, it would be much stronger in odor and yellower in color. If that means anything, I don't know. I'm done now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-----------------------------
>AQHA Clique<>Do It Yourself Clique<>Children's Jumper Clique<<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The higher Protein in the Alf produces higher Ammonia levels in the urine. At least that's what I have been told.

~Run fast, Jump high. What else is there?~

[JER]

Alfalfa has a higher rate of enteroliths forming in the intestines, and even higher in Arabs.

Western alfalfa is higher in protein and calcium than its east coast counterpart.

Coastal bermuda, like the kind we have here in California, carries with it a higher risk of impaction.

Our local equine hospital was chock full of horses (especially Arabs) with enteroliths this summer. These were all colic cases, all requiring surgery. I'm talking about a 12-stall post-op care barn, full of colic cases, almost all enterolith-related. My old QH had a strangulating lipoma; there was also a TB with twisted gut (who didn't make it). Other than that, all enteroliths and when one horse went home, there was a similar emergency to fill the stall. This went on for the 2 weeks my horse was hospitalized.

One woman, who had 2 horses getting stones removed, was shocked that in 30 years of horsekeeping, no vet had told her about this risk. The vets at the hospital were very clear about it with her and she called all her horsey friends to tell them to stop feeding alfalfa.

I probably saw a statistical anomaly at the hospital. However, none of the enterolith horses were on a grass hay diet -- only alfalfa or alf-oat. The risk of colic has to be significantly higher for those horses.

I feed timothy only and will continue to do so. Yes, it's more expensive but not nearly as expensive as colic surgery.

[Oldenburg Mom]

You can get lost in the research they've posted ... here's their article on 'Old Wives' Tales' which everyone might find interesting... and it's not just about Alf.

Old Wives' Tales - from KER. (http://www.ker.com/library/archive/proceedings/sc94/MythsWivesTales/index.html)

If you check out "First cutting hay is not good for horses" --it's in the last couple of paragraphs-- and it discusses the renal aspect of ALF,... granted not in huge detail.


And I'm looking up Enterolith...

Enterolith paper. (http://www.ker.com/library/archive/proceedings/sc94/NutritionProductivity/index.html)

Which I've now done... please read about it for yourself.

So, not to be a devil's advocate here, but it seems--correct me if I'm wrong--upon closer examination most of the Alfalfa issues seem to be not supported by science.

Comments? Oh, and by the way, I think this is a fascinating discussion. Everyone has a point of view that has its merits. Isn't that great?

And by the way, everyone forgets that pasture, you know the green stuff horses love, is usually between 22%-26% protein. Alfalfa usually runs about 20%.


Just a thought...
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Aug. 24, 2002 at 09:17 PM.]

[ahf]

KT - I don't know where you are in the US, but there will be a "Raising a SOund Sporthorse" seminar at Hilltop farm in MD in NOvember. Dr. Sarah Ralston will be lecturing on equine nutrition. She was one of the pioneers on the "glycemic response" issues in feeding young horses - which is mentioned on the KER site.

It may not be all about alfalfa, but forage issues are SURE to be discussed.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The higher Protein in the Alf produces higher Ammonia levels in the urine. At least that's what I have been told. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mind you, I'm reaching back 20 years for Chemistry and Biology (which I didn't pay a lot of attention to to begin with!), but that is essentially correct. For some reason I am remembering that NH4 is a (the?) component of protein and NH3 is urea (the ammonia smelling component in urine). Or it could be vice versa...

Also, I wonder if legumes (peanuts, alfalfa, clover) just have a naturally higher nitrogen component, separate from the protein component? Any biochemists who actually remember this stuff out there?

Last May I had an opportunity to buy some orchardgrass & alfalfa for a few bucks less than my normal price, so I picked up 40 bales. It was pure orchardgrass as far as I could tell, whereas my normal dealer has a high level of alfalfa (about 60-75%). Oh the wet spots were almost a joy to clean for those few weeks. Then there was the rest of the stall, where they trashed the hay in disgust looking for a blade of alfalfa...

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)

[JB]

KT - now I'm confused! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

You know, I think that's important enough to go to. I'll contact Hilltop and report back, if anyone else is interested. I mean as far as $$s goes.

JB... hey, I'm in the same boat. I'm totally confused. Apparently the important thing is NO GROWTH SPURTS and LOTS OF EXERCISE. I mean, the growth should be steady.

DMK... let's get BustersMom in on this... she should be able to comment. She's got a Masters, or is it PhD in chemistry.

Paging BustersMom, Paging BustersMom.

Just a thought...
KT

[NRB]

KT, another "feed" that is calcululated in regards to what hay you feed is Horse Sense. Actually it is not a feed in that it does not provide calories, it provides the correct amt. of nutrients and minerals in the right proportions. Oats are added to provide the calories and you balance the feed according to the hay you feed, as well as the weight of the horse and his activity level.

So you feed differently if you use mixed hay, grass hay or alf hay.

[Ruby G. Weber]

Alfalfa hay grown east of the Mississippi River varies significantly from Western Alfalfa. Basically what that means is if you don't want to overload your horse with protein, (and calories)feed less of the Western than Eastern Alfalfa.

The most sucessful formula for feeding forage is mixing it. Feed a grass hay, preferably cut in early bloom (you'll know that if the heads are not long), and some Alfalfa.

Feeding grass hay (I prefer Timothy) and Alfalfa gets the correct Calcium/Phosphorus ratio into the horse. I'm not familiar with the warm season grass hays but having seen Bermuda Grass hay, I'd be inclined to buy a load of Timothy.

As far as what cutting to feed, first cutting Alfalfa is stemmy thus usually not as palatable as second and third cuttings. First cutting Timothy is it. First cutting 100% Orchard Grass is more palatable than second cutting but when Orchard Grass is mixed with Alfalfa, then the second cutting is fed.

I believe in feeding some Alfalfa to all mature, working horses, in it's natural state, not compressed into cubes.

When feeding youngsters, one must be more careful with Alfalfa taking into consideration the type of pasture grass the youngster forages on.

[xcjumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The higher Protein in the Alf produces higher Ammonia levels in the urine. At least that's what I have been told. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Last May I had an opportunity to buy some orchardgrass & alfalfa for a few bucks less than my normal price, so I picked up 40 bales. It was pure orchardgrass as far as I could tell, whereas my normal dealer has a high level of alfalfa (about 60-75%). Oh the wet spots were almost a joy to clean for those few weeks. Then there was the rest of the stall, where they trashed the hay in disgust looking for a blade of alfalfa...

_"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yes!! I can definately tell which horses in the barn are eating Alf and which one's get grass! The smell of the stall is almost eye watering for the one's on Alf! ICK!

~Run fast, Jump high. What else is there?~

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KT 1900:


JB... hey, I'm in the same boat. I'm totally confused. Apparently the important thing is NO GROWTH SPURTS and LOTS OF EXERCISE. I mean, the growth should be steady.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that's all there is to it - how simple could it be? ;-)

[Sandbarhorse]

Going back a bit to answer your question about how the grain was chosen.

I too, feed Strategy, though I did originally feed Omolene 200 which is very similar, but is a sweet feed.

I learned a lot about grain with my old horse. I could never get weight on him (QH, by the way) and he was the only horse I have ever seen who would get sick of any different grain after 6-12 months and completely refuse to eat it.

When we got the current 2, 1 as a yearling and 1 as a 2 yr. old (now 3 and 4), I did alot of research on OCD and nutrition for young horses and liked both the Omolene 200 and the Strategy (I have also heard good things about the consistency of their quality and vit./min. content from people with no interest either way).

As I had a fear of impaction from pellets alone I went with the Omolene. I have since had my vet tell me that I was worrying unnecesarily and have put them on the Strategy.

As mentioned earlier they are on free choice timothy/alf. mix.

I would still like to hear if anyone thinks there is a ca./phos. worry with this diet. I really thought I had a pretty good plan, but am now diving in to do more research.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Let's hope this works...

PLUS... I've found the correct ratio, thanks to Purina. Hold on... I'm going to go get it.

Ok. Here's the quote directly from Purina...

Watch when feeding just alfalfa hay that the calcium/phosphorus ratio in line. (1.2-1.9:1). It won�t be on all alfalfa hay (1.5% Ca). Hey, it took me a minute to figure it out...it's "1.2" to "1.9" part calcium to 1 part phosphorus.

Soooooooooo. Let's figure this out...

WAIT! I can't figure this out... do you all know why? <No, KT, we can't figure it out. Tell us, tell us, tell us!!!>

Because I am not feeding by W-E-I-G-H-T. This is important... to feed by weight, not by volume.

Just a thought
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Aug. 25, 2002 at 08:35 PM.]

[JB]

sandbarhorse - your diet sounds pretty good - timothy is one of the most balanced hays out there with regards to ca:phos. If the T&A is more T than A, that's fabulous. If it's more A than T, you might be slightly high on the calcium side. Strategy is a pretty balanced grain.

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
sandbarhorse - your diet sounds pretty good - timothy is one of the most balanced hays out there with regards to ca:phos. If the T&A is more T than A, that's fabulous. If it's more A than T, you might be slightly high on the calcium side. Strategy is a pretty balanced grain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your comments JB. I think I'm OK, the hay is generally at least 1/2 timothy and usually more timothy than alfalfa. Though the horses do tend to make faces when it's less than 1/2 alf. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[JER]

Here's a link to a UC Davis paper on enteroliths:
UCDavis enterolith paper (http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vsr/gastrolab/TOPICS.html)

Although the connection between alfalfa (or bran0 and enteroliths has not been empirically documented, there's considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that feeding alfalfa can be a precipitating factor in the formation of enteroliths.

In California, when your horse colics, the vet will ask what you feed. When you say 'bermuda' or 'timothy', the vet will say "Then we're not worried about stones." I'd like to see numbers for enterolith cases that divide them into alfalfa-fed horses and grass-fed horses -- that should indicate something.

[ltw]

The drought has really affected hay availability as AHF mentioned. I have just recieved a delivery of hay. I asked for 1/2 Timothy, 1/2 Orchard Grass. I recieved 250 bales of Alfalfa/Orchard Grass Mix -heavy in Alfalfa, 150 bales of straight Orchard Grass and 200 of Timothy. The supplier had a very hard time finding any good quality Timothy here in VA.

I guess I will be sending samples of all three batches off for analysis. I had to pay more for this hay than I have ever paid. But this is the scary part of the drought here in VA. I have found that hay prices have doubled in the last few years.

Because the growing season is so much shorter for the Alfalfa, many in our area will be forced to feed this hay this year. We will have to balance up our feeds to adjust.

Regards,
Laura
www.studbook.com/shadowfox/ (http://www.studbook.com/shadowfox/)

[Daydream Believer]

Itw,

Funny you posted that about the alfalfa. I'm trying to arrange for several loads to come down here from Ohio and am having a very hard time finding straight grass hay that is reasonably priced. It's beginning to look like we're all going to have to feed much more alfalfa than we're accustomed to.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[Oldenburg Mom]

If you're looking in Ohio, I've got someone closer in PA. I've contacted him and he's got good quality grassy stuff--I mean RRB ATE it (I'm the Alf person, don't forget)

Price... well, I'm used to high prices, so I don't know if this is obscene or not... probably $260 a ton... but that's for a single ton. If you're looking at several loads, well, I'm sure the price would be lower. He goes all over the place too, so I think he'd go down to you. Plus, he's a really nice guy to boot.

Let me know if you want more info...

Just a thought...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

and this is the latest for me on the hay issue.

I'm trying to find a scale so that I can start weighing my hay. Until I do, I don't know where I stand with the ca:phos ratio. You know what? That's not a good thing. Plus, I'm going to send a sample away for analysis.

My baby is going to be fed on whatever his breeder is feeding, or even better, what he was being fed in Germany. AND, I'm going to try and go to the clinic about raising WB's (calling for information this morning.)

PLUS, I'm switching to Buckeye.

BTW, does anyone have any info on what happens to a horse who does not have the proper CA:Phos ratio?

Just a thought...
KT

[Daydream Believer]

KT,

Thanks for the info. That works out to $6.50/bale more or less. Is that a delivered price? What does it cost at the barn? The stuff I'm looking at in Ohio I think I can get down here to NC for a total cost of $3.50/bale after freight. I'd prefer the grass but, wow, what a price difference! I've got about 5 to feed so I have to go as inexpensively as possible. Thanks for the kind offer again. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[Oldenburg Mom]

I LOVE NC.

You're soooo lucky.

Just a thought...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

And no, Erin I don't work for them either!!!!

They're having a seminar "Raising a Sound Sporthorse."

Two days, November 8/9. Friday: 12:00 - 9:00pm (includes a reception sponsored by Intervet /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Saturday: 8:30 - 4:30.

I think I'll go. Cost? Don't know... price'll be set 9/1. Accomodation is possible on site.

Just a thought...
KT

[JB]

Oh KT you lucky dawg getting to go to a seminar like that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Give us a report aftwards, will ya?

As far as the unbalance ca:phos - it somewhat depends. Generally too little ca/too much phos causes less sturdy bones (either too light or too brittle). Ca is also useful in muscle function, so not enough of that could cause problems there. There is a disease called "Big Head" that results from excess phosphorous. You can have a balanced ca:phos ratio, but too much (or too little) of each, causing your other minerals to be unbalanced, which can cause a whole host of other issues.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I may have spoken too soon. It depends entirely on how much they're going to charge... but I sure will report back. If it's too much $$$ I guess I'll just have to drool like everyone else /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Something else of interest to everyone... I just received a package of information from KER. They are GREAT with information. I can't say enough nice things about them.

Articles are as follows:
1.) Alf Hay a Mjor component in Many Horse Diets.
2.) What does your horse weigh?
3.) Reprint from Modern Horse Breeding 7/94. Beating DOD: News from the front
4.) Delivering Essential Nutrients to Young Growing Horses
5.) DOD and Normalcy

I can scan and send these to anyone, just let me know.

Just a thought...
KT

[Daydream Believer]

KT,

I don't feel so lucky to live here this year! It has been the 2nd or 3rd hottest summer ever, my pastures are dead, local hay is nonexistent and my well is in danger of going dry. When will this drought end? Even some of our trees are dying!

Normally, I love it here but it has been a tough year. The only other place I like as much is Virginia.

Where are you at?

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[Oldenburg Mom]

CT ... sometimes Mars. Depends upon how the day is going... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just a thought...
KT

[Daydream Believer]

KT,

I've been to CT. It's beautiful there although it seemed a little crowded. Pricey land? It's getting pretty expensive here in Central NC near Raleigh, Chapel Hill, and Durham. It's also being developed at an alarming rate. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[JB]

Daydream - I know - here too. So much development, the drought sucks (though yesterday and today should help a bit), but amazingly enough both my barns aren't having trouble getting hay. All us NC'ers must get together for a raging rain dance to keep rain coming this winter, or next summer will make this one look just peachy /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Daydream Believer]

JB,

Yes, let's all keep our fingers crossed that El Nino goes away or we'll be out of water and in a big pickle. Know any good hay sources? I'm not moving hay for profit anymore like I mentioned in that email but have banded together with several friends to try and get some affordable, good quality hay put up for the winter. Everyone prefers grass hay but most of what I've found in timothy and orchard is quite pricy. The alfalfa mixes tend to be more plentiful and less expensive. Thanks!

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

[Oldenburg Mom]

All you people MAY have converted me. To what, I'm not sure... (haha)

Well, the poll helped. Only 6 people feed alf? Hmmm.

But the other thing that made me stop and think was this:

I have been comparing alf to pasture... pasture has a higher protein content. But as someone pointed out yesterday (and this is a big Duh!) pasture is 90% WATER, 10% dry matter. AlF is 90% dry matter and 10% water. So even if Dobbin grazed all day, he probably would not come close to the AMOUNT, not percent, of protein eaten in two flakes of western alf.

He's getting too much protein.

And if anyone says "I told you so" I'll get Robby after 'em with his "large stick" and "burning diesel fuel" /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Just a thought...
KT

[JB]

Remember though KT - 10lb of 15% protein is the same amount of protein, regardless of whether it's grass or hay. I think (but am not positive) that the general rule of thumb is that a horse generally eats about 1% of its body weight in pasture a day (if the horse is out all the time, or at least out all day or night). The protein % of your pasture or your hay, whether it's a grass or legume product, can vary greatly depending on variety, environmental conditions, and where in the growing season you are. I just found out the Orchard grass my 4yo gets is 14%, and the Fescue he gets is 15%.

If you really want to figure out what he's getting, you can have your pasture analyzed as well as your hay - then you'll know exactly what the protein content is of each, can estimate his pasture consumption, and know his hay consumption, and the rest is just math! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

10 lbs of pasture, which is 90% water, does not equal 10 lbs of hay, which is 90% dry matter. There is no protein in water.

Let's break it down like this:

100 lbs of pasture = 10 lbs of dry matter = 2.5 lbs of protein (25% protein)

100 lbs of hay = 90 lbs of dry matter = 22.5 lbs of protein (25% protein)

HUGE difference.

Just a thought...
KT

[monstrpony]

I suspect when "they" say x% whatever, by weight, they are not meaning x% of the dry matter, but x% of the whole thing. If hay lost 90% of it's content when it dried to hay, it would virutally disappear, no?

Also, remember that protein isn't as evil as it was once thought, tho you do still want to watch the protein with a youngster.

(just stirring the pot.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

[Oldenburg Mom]

I don't know. I would not be surprised to find out that, by weight, that little leaf I'm looking at weighed 90% more. After all, water's heavy. And think about when you cook spinach. Same thing... 1/2 lb of spinach cooks down to about 1 serving.

But it's still a good point... but whatever the percentage is based on, be it volume, weight or atomic number, the idea is still the same, isn't it?

HAVEN'T A CLUE!!!!! (But at least I admit it!)

I tried to page the expert, BustersMom... she has a PhD in Chemistry (you know what PhD means, don't you? Piled Higher and Deeper. Except in Montana where it means Post Hole Digger...hahahahahahaha)



Let me try again...

Just a thought...
KT

[monstrpony]

BustersMom does *not* have the corner on Chemistry PhDs, as it turns out....

However, mine's in Physical, not Bio or Organic, so I'll still admit this discussion is a bit out of my league.

(however, I can virtually promise you, it's not percent by atomic number /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[Oldenburg Mom]

I suspected you were educated!!!!!


HAHAHAHA

Just a thought...
KT


P.S. So which kind of a PhD are you: post hole or piled higher? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[monstrpony]

I dint say nuthin bout no edjakashun!

I own a farm with horses on it--and you have to ask?? clearly, my phd is ambidextrous!

[Oldenburg Mom]

that piled higher could be horse instead of bull.

You know what? I'm going to get it analyzed. Let's see what's what.

Just a thought...
KT

[Therese]

In the neat little chart KT 1900 posted of hay analysis (already copied into excel, I love charts!) it lists Brome hay...what's that?

And where does Bermuda fit in the chart?

Anyone?

****************************
"I love deadlines." "I love the swooooshing sound they make as they fly by!" -Douglas Adams

[Oldenburg Mom]

As I am the novice here...

I'll try and find out though... and see if I can find bermuda.

Found out

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Brome is a cool season grass that is a popular forage incentral and eastern Kansas. Because of heavy-texture soilsin eastern Kansas that can become waterlogged, grazing canreduce brome stands. For that reason, brome is grownprimarily for hay. It responds well to nutrient applicationsbased on soil test recommendations where phosphate andpotash are applied in the fall and nitrogen is applied in thewinter. The quality of brome will decrease after headingwith protein dropping one half of one percent per day untilit reaches 6 percent.Brome is very comparable to fescue, the other cool seasongrass that is prominent in eastern Kansas. Yields of bromeand fescue will be comparable so long as the brome pastureis not subject to grazing. One clear advantage of brome overfescue is that brome is endophyte-free. However, it does notproduce as much fall growth that can be stockpiled for wintergrazing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a thought...
KT

[monstrpony]

I know this one!

I found a chart last year that showed similar info and included coastal bermuda grass hay. As I recall, it was right up there with good timothy and orchard grass, but not as rich as alfalfa. I will try to find the source again and post it if I can find it (my printout is at home, will try to remember to check tonight).

[Oldenburg Mom]

HOT SEAT!!!!!

And this better be good...

Just a thought...
KT

[BustersMom]

I am an Xray Crystallographer. Good grief, KT. Some of had to work yesterday.

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group

[Oldenburg Mom]

Yeah, but you've been working for the past 20 days....

Gimme a break!


And, and... well christal whatever is still CHEMISTRY, isn't it? We poor dumb lit majors don't know nuttin' about that science crap.

Just a thought...
KT

[BustersMom]

we had a LOT more fun that those Lit majors.

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group

[poltroon]

A good source for scales (and lots of other weird industrial items - wanna buy a speed bump?) is McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/).

They are not the cheapest source, usually, but the prices aren't bad and they have EVERYTHING and can usually ship immediately. Things you didn't know you needed. Things you didn't know existed.

(Who needed all that calculus? THIS was the most important thing I learned in engineering school.) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Are you an engineer? (Oh nooooooo)

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. WOW!!!! What a cool site. They've got stuff that is soooo neat. I want to be a mechanic!!!

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A good source for scales (and lots of other weird industrial items - wanna buy a speed bump?) is McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tee hee... and you ain't seen nuttin' till you wander around (or run an inventory) in the 300,000 square foot warehouse. I worked on their management team for a little over a year, and can't even tell you some of the strange things I saw.

But yes, they will certainly have every scale under the sun.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok folks.

This is the inside poop:

"Raising a Sound Horse Seminar" November 8-9, 2002 at Hilltop Farm Inc., 1089 Nesbitt Road, Colora MD. Telelphone: 410-658-9898.

Seminar package - $125.00

Housing at farm: $55/$65 single/double room in guest house (share bath.) $85 for the villas (two bedroom)

Actually, that's not bad. $200 for a weekend away...?

Just a thought...
KT

[BustersMom]

or is that thrown in?

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group

[JBO]

I now feed orchard/alfalfa hay - I was strictly alfalfa for my show horses because that was all they would eat! They live at home, and we were sick of cleaning up the mess they would make with the hay - my hunter would literally spread the T/A or god forbid - straight timothy, throughout the stall and grind it in. It took soooo long to do the stalls /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

After getting a lot of great info on nutrition for possible ulcers, I make the switch to 1 ALF/1 O/A 3 times a day, and now they are just on the O/A and are fine. As for feed, they get half Strategy, hald Omelene 100, and corn oil (and various other supplements) 3 x/day. Everyone seems healthy and happy, though a little plump!
Toby used to eat an incredible amount of alfalfa - up to 2 bales in one show weekend, if you'd let him. I finally decided that was too much, and now we're down to 1 bale of O/A at the shows!