Minority riders

[linquest]

Are there ANY minority riders out there in the English disciplines? I'm sure there are some out there but I've never seen any in person.

The reason I ask--the last issue of PH had an article by Randy Ward, an African-American eventer. It suddenly dawned on me that he was the first minority rider I've ever seen in any horse publication, and I've read a lot of them.

Myself a minority, I can honestly say that I have never encountered overt racism. However, I will say that I sometimes feel like the "token minority" at horse events (except for the Mexican grooms, no joke). I know this can be a sensitive subject and I'm not trying to offend anyone in anyway. I'm just wondering if anyone else has thought about the issue of race in the horse world.

[linquest]

Are there ANY minority riders out there in the English disciplines? I'm sure there are some out there but I've never seen any in person.

The reason I ask--the last issue of PH had an article by Randy Ward, an African-American eventer. It suddenly dawned on me that he was the first minority rider I've ever seen in any horse publication, and I've read a lot of them.

Myself a minority, I can honestly say that I have never encountered overt racism. However, I will say that I sometimes feel like the "token minority" at horse events (except for the Mexican grooms, no joke). I know this can be a sensitive subject and I'm not trying to offend anyone in anyway. I'm just wondering if anyone else has thought about the issue of race in the horse world.

[AHC]

Paige Johnson, a top junior rider, is an African American.

[Merry]

I only wish there were more diversity! If I go to one more Orange County/Southern California horse show, and have to rub elbows at the backgate with another cluster of boob-implanted, manicured WASP yuppies with their classic Newport Beach bob haircuts, I'm going to be sick. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[msj]

Have seen at least one oriental rider at Horse Trials. Upper level, like Prelim or Intermediate, I believe.

msj

[Janet]

There were at least two African American girls competing at the last local hunter show I went to, but they are definitely a minority.

[Moesha]

Merry I take extreme offense to your "racist" statments. I am proud that my Family ,on my Mother's side, has been here since Jamestown, and fought in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. I love the fact we have houses in our family that are several hundred years old and have been in our family since they were built.
I am very proud of my Family's part in the founding of this Country and their accomplishments and achievements. And if that to you is being a manicured WASP that makes you sick, then your ideals are not only flawed but racist.

[Trooper]

Bully for you Moesha - so is mine.

I too am proud of my heritage. But I agree with Merry - it still gets really old to see the same types of people at every show with no diversity in the competitor base.

[Moesha]

And the using of the Term WASP in a degrading or insulting way is no different than using hateful and racist terms to describe members of any ethnic or national group.

[Merry]

Oh please, Moesha, I'm about as WASP as they get! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My GRANDPARENTS, founders of Orange County, home of Richard Nixon, helped build Knott's Berry Farm, that commercial bastion of yuppie, John Birch Society conservatism. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nothing like poking a little fun at my own roots.

Perhaps I'm just a tad jealous because I'm always a bit grunged out at shows, actually requiring my COTH cap to conceal my non-bobbed haircut.

[Glimmerglass]

a first for me - but I whole heartedly agreed with Moesha's remarks. drop the "wasp" bashing

[linquest]

I've heard of Paige Johnson. Her father owns BET (Black Entertainment TV) television which sponsors some GP events. I read an interesting article about her father and a USET gala fund-raiser he organized. It said that the party was completely segregated by race and all the equestrians (I'm assuming except for Paige) were white.

Just to add some fuel to the fire (you can tell I love to stir controversy)...do you think that the reason why there are so few minorities in English riding is because of the perception that it is an elitist sport for rich people only? *disclaimer: comment to cause debate only*

[linquest]

msj- Really? That's interesting as I'd like to get involved in eventing in your area.

Merry- I used to ride/live near OC myself. I've always thought that was odd considering how demographically diverse the OC/LA counties are in general.

[Inverness]

I've been doing my usual "spectating" at VA shows this spring and have noticed more minority (predominantly African American and Asian) riders than I did last year. The vast majority of riders, however, are caucasian. Unfortunately, that about sums up my non-scientific survey.

Tangentially, I'm noticing marked growth in another minority group participating in riding - the over 40 adult beginner (male and female). YIPPEE!! I HAVE COMPANY!!

[Coreene]

Moesha, I'm sure Merry didn't mean "WASP" as an insult. Orange County, while on the one hand has been known for years as a bunch of conservative Wonder Bread republicans, is one of the most ethnically diverse counties in the US. But you'd never guess it from the shows.

[joliemom]

Tom Simmons is a successful combined driving competitor, trainer and instructor in NC. http://members.person.net/~horseman2

[Merry]

linquest: yes, both Orange County and LA County are definitely more diverse than what our typical horse shows would indicate. Of course, there are multiple reasons why this would be so.

Gosh, yes, absolutely, in no way did I mean to offend anyone!I apologize if my self-deprecating sense of humor offended anyone. I just really wish horse shows weren't seen so much as an enclave of elitism by much of the general public. Heck, we have riding parks and trails being closed out here by the Parks and Recreation Departments because they're perceived as being only for the hobbies of the predominantly white upper class. We need to encourage diversity and inclusion in our sport if it's going to survive.

[This message was edited by Merry on May. 16, 2001 at 02:22 PM.]

[rileyt]

Moesha... I think when I took offense to an admittedly well-intended joke slurring Mexicans, you, in essence, told me to loosen up. I find the fact that you're now offended,...well... interesting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[linquest]

"conservative Wonder Bread republicans"?!?
ROFL. I'm sorry, I have to laugh.
If WASP is an insult, what would people think of that comment?

[Coreene]

Linquest, scary as it may seem, there are a lot of Orange Countians who would see it and nod and say "yes, that's Orange County." And "Wonder Bread" is a comment that all the chi chi restaurateurs make about the OC dining crowd. Amazing, but true!

[Beezer]

As Merry's sister, I can honestly say she's a WASP. 'Cause lord knows I've tried to swat her enough times!

And, yes, relax folks: She's poking fun at herself and those around her. Despite being raised by our arch-conservative father, she's about as un-arch-conservative as she can get. Even if she IS the prototypical skinny blonde. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for the lack of minority riders, I honestly think it's one of those Catch-22s: Golf and tennis were hardly drawing large numbers of minority fans or players, but now that Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters are major stars, those sports are getting more interest. Ditto for ice skating and Michelle Kwan's impact. Until equestrian sports can A) generate that kind of media attention to draw more people to us and B) produce a standout star that creates more of A, we'll continue to have problems attracting new people. Period. No matter what their ancestry is.

[valentine1]

Did you know that one of the most famous Thoroughbred racing jockeys in this country's history was an African American? His name was Isaac Murphey, and I believe there is a memoriable to him at the Kentucky Horse Park.

Ralph Hill had an African American trainer, and I think he named a horse after him, but I cannot recall the name.

Years ago I boarded with a very knowledgeable woman who kept her farrier for her own very expensive horse a secret. While us, the hoi-polloi, had to cope with the ordinary shoers, she had a retired African American farrier shoe her own horse. They used to pick him up from the retirement home, and he would come with his gym bag of tools. Really p**sed me off, because I wanted that expertise for my own horse, but he only had the energy to do one horse.

Many African Americans have been expert horsemen (and women). Sordid as it is, I have read somewhere that members of certain tribes were prized as slaves by horseowners because of their expertize with horses.

Check your history books!

[Moesha]

Sorry, although I may have opinions on the matter, I didn't mean to divert the discussion away from its original idea. Diversity can be discussed without attacking one group or another.

Merry, I hope you didn't feel I was "Attacking" or "criticizing" you? If so, I'm sorry.

rileyt, point taken, I do tend to change the rules when it applies to me!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lauriep]

environment while growing up. Several nationalities are more commonly thought of as "inner city", where exposure to anything horse related would be hard to come by. And, very unfortunately, the rural populations of these same nationalities weren't financially able to pursue equestrian sports. And the dirth of minorities is by no means limited to English riding; they aren't there in Western disciplines, either, or driving, breed, etc.

The same is true in the dog world. They just aren't there for probably the same reasons, lack of exposure.

If the exposure were there, would they have the interest? Hopefully, with the many riding programs now geared to city and underprivilaged kids, we will see the answer to that in the near future!

Laurie

[rileyt]

Moesha- don't we all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[msj]

We'd love to see new faces in the eventing arena. June 2-3 is GVRDC HT, with bn to prelim.

Also Stuart HT and B & B, which are ones that I work at. There are a lot of others. Check out eventingusa.com and go to their links and check out Area 1 or check out the omnibus. It will give you the upcoming events.

msj

[SoEasy]

who was/is a rider and breeder, who is African American ... here is a link to a search on her user name ...
pwynnnor man posts (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=srch&s=691099205&findw=&f=&sis=&dt=&author_name=pwynnnorman&sort_order=2&action=simplesearch&search.x=38&search.y=10)

We had this discussion too ...

[Miniwelsh]

I believe that her dad actually sold BET and became the first black billionnaire in order to finance his new airline...DC Air. Pretty cool.

My fiance's daughter, who is african american, has taken a strong liking to riding. Paige Johnson is her idol. I am thrilled that she has a rider of her own race to look up to.

[dublin]

but I have to admit I have missed pwynn posting here. I certainly didn't always agree with her, but her posts were definitely interesting and prevocative. Snowbird, any chance she might rejoin us someday? How is she doing - I assume you are still in touch??

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

Actually if you want to get technical about minorities in the equestrian world... there's THOUSANDS of them! Women.. they're considered a minority.

And immigrants... there are a lot of them in the horse world, Europeans mostly plus New Zealanders and Aussies...

- K a h l u a -
PIX (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1521322)

[OnyxThePony]

A definate minority in the riding circle. Although men are visable enough. I've known/witnessed exactly two (I would say Black, but then maybe it's different for you in the States so African-Americn I suppose) riders. But then when I went to school, there was one black kid, and he called himself 'the black kid'.. so maybe the minority ratio was even between population/riding population.
I'm seeing a lot more Asian riders, though. Then again there are alot more Asians where I live now than where I used to! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My horsie is awesome!!!

[Jumphigh83]

I for one, will not stand idley by while you all make perjorative statements about Wonder Bread. Disgusting lack of respect for an AMerican institution! ( I have to say boys are one of the minorities in our sport beside the obvious racial bias ...toward WASP....no flames just a statement of fact...I think it's ok to poke fun at yourself as long as it is done with the right spirit!) My niece was somnething of an anomoly several years ago when she rode in the childrens hunter (she is asian/black) She got alot of stares back about 20 years ago but now there are alot more racial minorities joining the fun of investing your whole lifes work and earnings in a four legged beast of burden! (and I wouldn't have it any other way!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Betsy

[Celtic Witch]

Does that count?

-Susie

[B.G.M. heidi]

I wonder whether there'd be greater mass media coverage and sponsorship of equestrian sports if it were more racially diverse.

Must say, though, should ground pole puissance ever make it as an Olympic event, there's a good chance I'd make the Korean team.

[Smart Alec]

yes there are many kinds of minorities in the riding world and I would like to include the blind. I know it sounds a bit strange, but when I taught a couple of years ago I had a blind student who was one of my most talented, hard-working, and fun riders. She could not only navigate with me giving her voice direction but she couls sense so much about the horse. She was also able to jump low obstacles well-spaced successfully. Here's the funny part. She used to ride at Revere Saugus where Randy Ward's father owned and ran the place. She remembers Randy when he was about 13 and competing at Groton House and taking lessons. She said he was a great kid and was so glad that his family regained the property and are running the business again. I still speak to her on a regular basis and we are good friends. I have to say she changed the way I think about riding so much and I am so proud and fortunate to have had the opportunity to teach/know/be friends with her....she really taught me! I only hope we do see more diversity in our sport. Diane was not the only minority I taught. I had a whole bunch of students from different backgraounds and we also would teach groups like the Boys and Girls club, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, ect. which brought even more people in. Most of these people didn't show but they all are contributing to the sport. They came from such backgrounds as Indian, Chinese, African American, Hondoran, Mexican just to name a few. One of the coolest things was seeing the reaction from these "inner city" kids from Boston when they saw a horse up-close for the *first time in their life*...not to mention the reaction they had when they got to trot on the horse the first time. Very cool indeed! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Chef Jade]

There were two very successful and talented riders out in CA that were minorities (1 African American, 1 Asian American.) Several years ago they were on their way to a horse show when they were involved in a car accident and were killed. It was a huge loss to their friends, competitors, and the horse world in more ways then one. Seeing that, albeit small, bit of diversity at shows made it a more enriching experience.

[Coreene]

Chef, that was so terribly sad. I remember seeing the sister (the one who had been driving) at GTE a week or so later. Her trainer (let's not name names) was an absolute darling and I'm sure was a real support in getting her and the rest of the barn through that first intense pain and bewilderment.

Alec, you're right about blind riders! My cousin's daughter in Holland was champion in the visually impaired division several years back in dressage. They had someone placed at each letter who quietly repeated the letter aloud. She is also mildly retarded. It was SUCH a thrill for all of us.

There is a handicapped rider in Britain who has almost no control of his legs and restricted use of his arms and just TROUNCES able bodied riders in the dressage arena!

[DarkerHorse]

I think that something we learned in history class applies to this. Desegration of public facilities is VERY new compared to the hundreds of years of segregation. Public schools are still segregated (not legally, but they are... schools in the suburbs have a mostly white population and schools in the inner city have a mostly african american population). I think the sport has come a long way as have all other things to desegrate. It just takes time. In 200 years, if the sport still exists, I bet the population of riders will be much more diverse, as will the population of any other group of people.

-----
http://www.catchride.com

[Taryn]

I was at Pebble (the show they were on their way to) when that happened. It was terribly sad. I still cry when I'm thumbing through old Show Circuits and see their page. They were two smart, talented (and ambassadors for racial diversity I might add) little girls.

[Coreene]

Taryn, and it was amazing how the young one just shot up from walk trot in no time flat. I am sure their families and friends cherish the memories of those two, because they were darling girls.

[ljo]

Well put Beezer /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[B.G.M. heidi]

As the economy's boomed and many immigrants have amassed considerable wealth, I think what holds many back from participation in equestrian sports is what Merry alluded to - it's perceived by wealthy minorities as the exclusive domain of White Anglo Saxon Protestants.

Merry's observations are dead-on -- if you consider, even for a second, how others, who don't enjoy the bragging rights to centuries-old family homes and founding fathers of the constitution, may feel and perceive the sport.

Not only is it ironic, it's terribly revealing, BTW, that Merry's use of the term 'WASP' should incite such indignance - given that the 'offendee' has berated, insulted and called "bitter", "pathetic", and "sick" so many, obviously, lovely people on this BB. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[wtywmn4]

heidi, you go girlfriend!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jl]

I'm a WASPP and I'm proud. By the way-that's white anglo saxon pagan. You can ONLY and AlWAYS make mock the group that you're a part of -live over it sensitive pasty people!

BTW I thought Moesha said sorry quite nicely, Heidi.

[Ben and Me]

Personally, I don't see how one could be a devout Catholic and compete regularly. Wouldn't they have to miss mass on a regular basis because of all the travelling and Sunday morning classes?

Sorry if this is sort of off topic... But Catholics are a minority too! At least in the south... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Portia]

Oh please. Have we really reached the point of political correctness that we can't even use the term WASP anymore? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Jeez. What the hell is insulting or derogatory in that term?

Along with true racism is a history of being denied equal opportunity on institutional and widespread social, political, and economic levels. Derogatory terms are used to maintain and further the climate in which such institutionalized degradation and denial of opportunity can continue. WASPs have not, historically or actually, been denied equal opportunity or been subjected to such denegrating treatment. WASP is simply a descriptive acronym, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and in and of itself is neither racist nor derogatory.

And before you say anything, I'm as White Anglo-Saxon Protestant as they come. Family names? Price, Burnham, Ross, and Moon. Family been in the country long? My aunts on my father's side are members of the Daughters of the American Revolution and my mother's family has a town in Ohio that was named after them in the 1800s. So what?

Next you'll be saying we can't make blonde jokes, or Californian jokes, or -- even worse -- that we can't make Canadian jokes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dogchushu]

Actually, a very talented, gracious African American gentleman may be riding my horse in a local equitation class this Sunday.

Yup, we're all missing mass... but Catholics can go on Friday night you know! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jumphigh83]

No no no We can go on Saturday night! But that's not why I stopped...Anyone remember Patty Brothag (spelling??) She had a very small leg (probably a thalidamide baby) and she showed in the A/O hunters (@1970s) very successfully! Please can't we just accept and laugh at ourselves without lapsing into PC??!!! Please!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Betsy

[dogchushu]

Oooooooops! I meant Saturday night... can I call this a senior moment please?

[daytimedrama]

Their deaths were a HUGE loss to friends and even people who didn't know them, like me. The year or so later, one of Cheslea's friends rode her horse to victory to the medal dedicated to Chelsea.

~Christina~
"Chaos is what killed the dinosaurs, Darling!" JD;Heathers

[Lisi]

there are several oriental riders in my area.

[Reckoning]

Where is the line between promoting racism by not acknowledging differences and promoting racism by acknowledging differences? Years ago, I had a friend whom I showed against who was black (I suppose the current PC term is African American). I wouldn't remember that if I didn't have photographs on my wall immortalizing the summer we showed together. If not for the photos, she would live forever in my memory as Laura of the wicked sense of humor who made me laugh uncontrollably when we lined up at the end of the hack. Laura who loved cheesy horror movies and had perfect nails that actually grew even though she rode as much as I did.

I don't see her skin color until attention is called to it, like through this thread. My friend was a minority. Should that matter? Does it matter? No. It doesn't matter anymore than it would if she had been a lesbian. As years pass, I will most likely lose the photos like I lose everything, and I'll still have my memories. Laura will still be Laura whether black, white, green, gay, handicapped, insane, or abducted by aliens.

My point is what's the point in judging people for their attributes beyond their control? Skin color, race, sexuality, maybe even alien abduction (? it worked with my argument) have no bearing on what a person is. Certainly various aspects of heritage and experience help shape personality, but as independant factors they do not make a persona. Hence a person should not be judged on them, whether in a derogatory way or an affirmative way.

[AAJumper]

Chef, I remember when that accident happened...it was so sad. I see her mother a lot at the shows...it is great that she continued riding.

[Mad Mission]

I have seen many Asian Americans at horse shows and horse trials, more so than any other minority.

I do agree that it seems odd that, at least around here, in a state where Caucasians are acutally a minority now (Statisically speaking we are outnumbered), that we don't see more 'minorites' at horse shows. More than anything, it is just sort of sad. Besides money, I also tend to think that it is becuase it is perhaps more aceptable for us to ride and also easier for us to get involved in. I don't know i am just rambling.

!!!!Schools out for SUMMER!!!!

[Weatherford]

Thanks, Slugger.

[AHC]

Well said, slugger. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, the term WASP was coined by E. Digby Baltzell, a sociology professor from the University of Pennsylvania in a book he wrote in 1964 called "The Protestant Establishment." I took his famous course, called social stratification, when I was at Penn and trust me when I tell you he is as WASP-y as they come. The term was meant to be descriptive, not derogatory.

[Jumphigh83]

Way to go Slugger! Just like you can;t have a bad breed on a good horse, you can't have a "bad" color race creed etc on a good human being! Viva la difference!

Betsy

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where is the line between promoting racism by not acknowledging differences and promoting racism by acknowledging differences? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slugger, I see your point, but it brings to mind many other issues. Let me begin with me /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif a WASP whose family came to Virginia in the 1600's, no family homes, but long forgotten wills distributing this woman (slave) to that white son, and this 8 year old boy (slave) to that white daughter. And on, and on, and on. Here I thought we were clean living Christians, but instead we were middle class white farmers buying, selling, and separating black families. My family pride, since my parents began their geneology projects, is now tempered with guilt, shame, and sadness.

Since then, I have recalled an African American kid I went to school with who shared my mother's maiden name. Did my family own his? Sobering thought, and can I honestly say color has no meaning in my relationships with people of color? Not yet. I have a lot of soul searching to do. Nor can I presume that classmate from high school has figured out his own race issues.

It makes me wonder why anyone outside my own race and class would ever consider riding, must be the incredible power that horses have on our lives.

Sorry to be so long winded.

[vineyridge]

That's the problem in a nutshell.

[Portia]

Beautifully said, Slugger and joliemom.

[Miniwelsh]

Although I think it would be wonderful if we could all look at each other and not see a color difference, unfortunately the majority of this country does not share those rose-colored glasses. As a white woman soon to be married to a black man and raising a black child in one of the most segregated cities in the country, I unfortunately have that shoved in my face on an almost daily basis. Of course the child is able to look around the barn and see that she is the only person of color there. She is the only child who has trouble wearing a hard helmet because her hair-style is different from the other childrens. It is very easy for us to sit back and say that we wish that our sport was more diverse, but I ask how many of us have been in a situation where we the only person of our race in sight? I have been to events where I have been the only white person around and trust me, it can be VERY uncomfortable. I see first hand the discrimination that my fiancee faces on a daily basis as an executive in a large company. When he first took his job, pictures of headless OJ Simpson's were stuck to his vehicle by jealous co-workers. As much as we would all like to believe that race doesn't make a difference, I can assure you, it does.

I can only hope that when my future daughter attends her first show, the people around her are as accepting as the ones on this board.

[pt]

but, Joliemom, "shame, sadness and guilt" -- Why??

Were you there at the time? Did you participate in those activities? Would you do so now if the opportunity arose?

The problem with researching ancestry - and I love to do it as a way of making history live - is that we tend to find out our ancestors are largely people we wouldn't invite to our homes for dinner. The upside is, our descendants will almost certainly feel the same way about us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm Celtic, Norse, English and Native American - bloody peoples all. Reivers (cattle thieves), raiders, slavers, brutal warriors -- also poets, bards, skalds, artists, writers, inventors and deeply spiritual thinkers. Mostly just people trying their best to survive in the societies of their times. SO, do I feel unnecessary guilt for the parts we no longer approve, or undeserved pride for the parts we accept?

History is the story of the past, and the past is just that - past. Can't change it.

As Slugger implied, the point is to live in our times with courage, honor, dignity and respect for each other - knowing that as the social standards change we, too, will be a blend of admirable and disgusting to future generations.

Personally, I don't see culture as a problem - the present LACK of culture in the US is a problem, however. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BTW, I absolutely DON'T agree with elimination of equestrian facilities/trails on the grounds that riding is an upper/middle class sport of white people. That is both racist and socialist. Our taxes pay for public recreational facilities as much or more than many others - we need to have the guts to stand up for our rights, not to let the present-day social/new world order propaganda deprive us of a fair share of public land use. Besides, there are a whole lot of riders who don't belong to private clubs or have estates - we need the public trails.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Smart Alec]

how awful for you and your husband to have to deal with such hateful people on a daily basis! I realize you're one of many who do so, but I am sure that for all of the 'bad' people out there...there are many more 'good' people and I have to hope that things *will* change. As for your daughter...I hope that she continues to enjoy riding. This might sounds corny but remember horses don't care about the difference between peoples skin color and they ultimately are the ones that matter when we spend time with them...its unconditional. I wish your little girl the best when she does go and show! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hobson]

I disagree, pt - I can see where joliemom is coming from. There are plenty of families whose wealth was built with help from slave labor who continue to reap the benefits of that long-ago exploitation.

The past is still very much with us in the form of institutionalized racism, and we white folks almost always get better deals in housing, education, jobs, politics, you name it.

[Miniwelsh]

As an aside, I was wondering if there has ever been a black owner or trainer to win any of the three triple crown races? I know there have been jockeys, but from what I understood, blacks used to make up the majority of jockeys.

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but, Joliemom, "shame, sadness and guilt" -- Why??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the ignornace I lived so happily with most of my life. I'm 39. Just this year I find out that not that many generations ago, my family separated a child from his mother and father.

This isn't 100's of years ago. In the south, we know our great, beloved, God Bless Their Souls, dead ancestors. We worship them. My mother takes all of us on the annual heritage tour where we visit our deads' graves. So when I visit "these folks" I know just how close to the bone I'm related to them. I can't turn my feelings off like a spigot and say, "well they did bad things that were normal for their times and I'm okay with that."

No, I personally didn't participate in slavery, but I can't say my family was completely clean either.

[Miniwelsh]

I can honestly say that I doubt many of us have a clean slate on that one, unfortunately you just know the facts of yours.

On the other hand, how many african-americans could go back through there history and find circumstances where their african ancestors sold them into slavery? They were sold by the tribal leaders in africa, much of the time for liquor, and then brought to this country by whites and sold again. I can speak for my fiancee in saying that he doesn't hold any hostility against whites for what happened to his ancestors...this was something you had no control over.

[jl]

about a black jockey that began life racing as a slave for his "owner" and was considered almost magical because of his rare ability to work with horses. The article also mentioned that the continued success of black jockeys lead to the ultimate "licensing" and barring of people of color from the track.

Ironically the article also went into the origins of the original lawn jockeys-long considered the epitome of racism. Apparently, Washington commissioned the first one as a tribute to a 12 yr old African-American who froze to death while holding a lantern to mark the return path for the troops in the dead of winter.

[HeyYouNags]

Change may be coming to the horse world, slowly. I think class, income, and a rising standard of living may slowly change the errr, "complexion" of the horse world.

I've visited a pretty rough hack and boarding stable in Southern MD for the past 14 years or so. It's has shifted from redneck white boarders, to drug dealing young African American men during the early 90's, to African American middle class horse owners now. (Don't kill me for the drug dealer stereotyping - it was the height of the crack epidemic years in DC, these young guys had wads of cash in their pockets and fancy cars, never had to be at work during the day, and more than one wound up shot to death.)

What's been interesting to see is the increasing sophistication in the horsemanship of the people at this stable. Most of them had no family history with horses, didn't take lessons as kids, etc. They are coming into it as adults without many role models to emulate. Many of these guys have started out as wannabe cowboys, and weren't taking the best care of their horses. Things are changing - they're looking for better feed, better farrier work, better vet service. It's pretty cool to watch a new group of horsepeople grow. Some of them are getting their children involved now.

I figure if I see them for another 10 or 15 years, they're going to start trying to see if their horses can jump, and then they'll be buying English saddles, and someday, someday, THEY'LL DO DRESSAGE!!!:p

This stable is in a majority African American county, and the improving economic base in the area is probably also contributing to people being able to afford a horse hobby.

[DHenley]

I have observed very few minority riders in Virginia or Arizona, the two places I have lived and ridden. My daughter rode at a h/j barn in AZ for a while that was owned by an African American man. He was an excellent, honest horseman and trainer, with several jumper riders quite competitive in the zone. From what I remember, there were no minority riders at the barn.

Joliemom, I too spent many Sunday afternoons "visiting" the relatives at the cemetaries around Richmond. Definitely a southern thang. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pt]

Hobson - I knew you couldn't resist responding to my post, you dear parlor liberal, you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Following your reasoning, do I get to sue the Brits for all the land and money they stole from my ancestors?

NO, I don't agree that whites get all the advantages in housing, education, etc. - maybe as recently as 25 years ago, yes. No more. There are many, many programs available to people of all races who want to improve themselves. And I'm in favor of encouraging anyone who tries - white, black, red, yellow or purple polka-dotted. But the Great White Guilt Trip reached the station a long time ago - except for those who (a) enjoy guilt or (b) want to exploit guilt. Count me out of both categories.

Myself, I think it's time to stop looking at skin color. Any skin color. But then, I look at manners and character and that eliminates so many people nowadays that skin color would be overkill. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm with Slugger - I can't honestly tell you if my friends are of a certain race, creed, body build or whatever. Because by the time we're friends, all I see or remember is the complete beauty of their spirits.

JMHO, of course.

[hobson]

I know, pt, I'm so terribly predictable. And I take offense to being called a "liberal." I'm really WAY more to the left than that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'm glad you live in such a lovely place in the world where simple desire breeds success, and where discrimination has been eradicated in such a thorough fashion.

[joliemom]

PT - let me explain it to you as plainly as I can.

I found out that my Ward ancestors were buried near their home. Near the river, they buried their slaves. I had no idea they owned slaves. I felt shocked.

I looked at a copy of a will which divided up great-great-great grandpappys estate. The will stated which child received which slave, one of whom was an 8 year old boy. I felt disgusted.

I am not stating my political opinions. I am not adocating redistribution of wealth nor 40 acres and a mule. I am not looking for forgiveness. What I am saying is that we have many miles to go before we can claim societal colorblindness.

[pt]

OK, thanks for your explanation.

Now let me explain it as simply as I can.

No, as a society - any society anywhere in the world - we are not color "blind." Never was, never will be. Awareness of difference is one thing; societally approved discrimination is another. Human nature will probably never eliminate the first, which really doesn't matter as long as we continue to work on eliminating the second. As we are.

But I would never prevent you from feeling guilty about anything you choose. If it satisfies you, you go, girl! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and Hobson - yes, I do live in a part of the country where most people try to deal fairly and respectfully with each other. None of us succeeds all the time, but that's why we're human, yes? I'm sorry to hear you don't -- but if you like where you are, that's what counts.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dementia 13]

I've visited a pretty rough hack and boarding stable in Southern MD for the past 14 years or so.
_____________________________________

heyounags -- I think I know which one you are talking about -- are the initials PS?

Are you in PG county?

[HeyYouNags]

Yes, that's the place. There used to be a few more like it around, back in the old days when people rented horses by the hour. I grew up not far from there in PG Co, (we rode dinosaurs to school) but live in AA now.

The place has a long, long way to go, but it's getting better. Hardly anyone used to have a trailer, or even gets vaccs for their horses. Then people started getting basic trailers, and a little vet work. Now one guy said recently he'd never let one of his horses on a stock trailer again (horse got injured in someone else's.) They're having teeth floated, and trying to fatten horses with expensive rice bran. Maybe in 15 years, it will be full of hunter-jumper riders?

It's like watching evolution...

[Blue Devil]

Some people were asking about minority trainers or influence.

Most everyone knows that Shelia Johnson has done a ton of fundraising and sponsorship for her daughter Paige and Paige is a beautiful rider and very nice girl.

But did you know that Montel Williams owns hunter/jumper horses?! Yep, they have names like Talk Show to top it off! Foxwoode Farms located near Detroit, Michigan, seems to be a very large equestrian center (that is where Mr. Williams boards/keeps his horses). 'Ya know the big hunter Debonaire that in his debut showing year was reserve champion at Harrisburg in the regular workings?! Well he came from Foxwoode! The head trainer at Foxwoode is a very, very nice African-American man named Michael Ewing. His daughter rides as well. You can see their webpage at
Foxwoode Farms (http://www.foxwoodefarms.com).

Just thought I'd share the fact that a prominent television host, also a minority, owns horses in our sport!

**~~Emily~~** proud member of the junior clique!

[Blue Devil]

I live in Mississippi. A state whose segregated racist history is still hotly debated as the Confederate flag, our STATE flag, flies at the capitol. I was not born here nor have I spent most of my life here (Here's where I admit I was born in Los Angeles and lived in Claremont for years and beg for the CA Clique to accept me.....;)) but this is the life and place where I live.

Probably unlike many of you now, where I live, race still governs. I have classmates whose parents won't allow them to come watch me ride at the barn because our barn is located in the middle of what is percieved as "poor African-American farms."

I remember the fifth grade class field trip to the zoo, which is on the "other" side of the train tracks, when half the class's parents wouldn't let them go.

I remember at football games seeing two school sanctioned and sponsored homecoming queens, one "White Queen" and one "Black Queen" being crowned.

It seems in my world race decides where one lives, works, eats, sleeps, worships, works out....

I am seventeen years old and I have to live this life every day, a world marked by racial intolerance and exclusion, a world where there are three racial choices on the Learner's Permit license, "B-Black, W-White, O-Other." This needs to end. I have friends who are African-American, Caucausian, Korean, Native American, Palestinian, hell, you name it. I am even sure I have some friends who have come from another planet...When I become friends with someone, when I compete against someone in sports, or when I compete with someone at science fair, his/her race doesn't even pop into my head as a factor or even in hindsight.

But what was the point of this thread? To incite feelings of guilt on behalf of descendants of former slave owners? No. To conjure feelings of unjustice among those who are minorities? No.

This thread I think should be a constructive way for us, who appear to be majority Caucasian posters, to encourage hunter/jumper growth across the board (pun not intended), but with an emphasis on minorities. Because we feel guilty? no. Because we want to end the stereotype of the rich Anglo-Saxon Protestant teenage girl with the requisite grooms of Latin American descent and BMW? Yes.

We (I) want riders from all backgrounds, ethnic groups, and all aspects of society. This can only increase competition and make horse showing more reflective of the racial trends of our country, and more main-stream. The focus of those who are intrigued by the apparent lack of diversity in our sport should be to end the stereotypes surrounding it and show that we (I) are willing and able to accept anyone who chooses to compete, ride, or participate, whether they be White, tall, African-American, Thai, rich, poor, Sihk, Jewish, short, homosexual, Roman Catholic, or otherwise.

But then again, I am only seventeen, and these are just my thoughts...

**~~Emily~~** proud member of the junior clique!

[This message was edited by Em, the former MayAbClo on May. 17, 2001 at 08:29 PM.]

[pt]

Although you are not in a position to do much about the discriminatory practices you describe right now, they are certainly against the spirit if not the letter of civil rights laws. On the other hand, you are living in Mississippi. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

As for your stated wish to see equestrian sports extend outside the perceived rich white girl image - couldn't agree with you more.

Anyone have any ideas how to implement progress toward this goal?

[Duffy]

Wow, Emily! I am so impressed by your post, both the content and the delivery. I am so sorry that there are still places in these days and times like Mississippi. Hopefully, with a little help, you WILL be able to make a difference.

I grew up in Fairfield County, CT, a much different place. However, even though everyone claimed to not be prejudiced, we really were not given much opportunity to figure any of it out. There was not one African-American student in my elementary school, nor in my Junior High School. I believe we had one male and one female African-American students in my high school. There just were not any African-American families living in our part of town. It sounds horrible, now that I talk about it.

I attended St. Lawrence University in upstate New York and graduated in 1978. We had several groups of African-American students there. There was one group who was, at least in my perception, quite defensive, against the white students at the school. I don't know if I was nervous around them because I just wasn't used to being around African-Americans, or whether they were just plain not interested in being friends with me.

The other group tried to be a part of "our" world. Lord, that sounds just awful. But, again, that was just my perception.

I've lived in Richmond, VA since 1978 and obviously life here is quite a bit different from the previous 21 years of my life. I am happy to say that, even though we live in a fairly affluent suburb, the school my children attend (public) has plenty of children of many races, nationalities, etc. and they genuinely seem to get along great! My children do not describe any of their friends or classmates by their color or nationality.

I'm sorry this got so long and I'm not sure at all that I got what I wanted to convey across...Maybe I'll edit later.

[vineyridge]

Granted that Mississippi was one of the most racist societies imaginable. It wasn't just blacks who were segregated, orientals were as well, because they weren't white. The War between the States left what had once been one of the richest states in the Union poverty stricken to this day because the freeing of the slaves without compensation took over 2 billion dollars out of the economy. The Yankees destroyed everything that resembled technology, their version of bombing us back to the stone age. White folks and black folks were poverty stricken, illiterate, and wormy. White folks and black folks were sharecroppers on the big farms.

Ultimately the difference was capital--which was in the hands of the whites--and education. The first volley in what is called the revolt of the rednecks was aimed at black schools in the heavily black areas. The State simply quit funding them. Blacks were treated as less than human. They were isolated, deprived of opportunity, and relegated to the edges of economic life. They were lynched. The legal system was biased against them, since all the lawyers, judges and juries were white, and they all believed that blacks were less emotionally mature than whites and less evolved. And so the great migration began and lasted until the industrial north didn't have enough industry to absorb the new migrants.

Point is that today, as a result of history, blacks in Mississippi are just as racist as whites. It's understandable, but the evil is ingrained in both sides. So, Em, you may see more white racism because that's who you are around most of the time, but until both sides will trust, you will have friction.

How do I know? Because I was a civil rights activist and lawyer in the seventies, left the state to do other things, and came home to a society that is very much different than it used to be.

Blacks have jobs that would have gone to whites before. Black culture is celebrated. There are integrated neighborhoods in my town, because blacks are able to buy decent housing. Whites are envious of the jobs that blacks can now get. Schools are still more or less segregated, and blacks and whites don't have much, if anything to do with each other socially. So we haven't gotten as far as we need to get, but we've come a long way.

As to the confederate canton on the flag, it's been there for over a hundred years. It has nothing to do with the twentieth century civil rights movement, unlike other Southern States which started flying the flag in defiance of Kennedy/Johnson/the Supreme Court/and the Justice Department. The vote to keep it wasn't racist; it was more a refusal to bury the past. As Faulkner said, and I'm paraphrasing, "In Mississippi the past isn't dead, it isn't even past."

[B.G.M. heidi]

When Hans and I decided to marry, my Korean parents balked, his Czech parents supported us. As much as I love Hans, I used to worry that our children would feel alien to me - that there would be a side of them, as half-white children, that would remain forever a mystery. And just to be fair about it, I also projected my fears onto Hans.

Well, three kids later, they are a mystery -- but not because of their 'otherness' to me. They are each distinctly their own people -- and they're my babies. My parents, oddly enough, have embraced them to the point that they have weekly sleepovers at their home and my mother refers to them as "our children, Heidi" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My in-laws, on the surprising other hand, haven't yet forgiven me for not producing blonde grandchildren. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As it relates to horse sports, firstly, Emily, I am awed by your eloquence and insight. You make me proud; I can only imagine how delighted your parents are by your thoughtfulness.

I've never felt uncomfortable in, what remains, mostly a sport of white people. There are some Asian, East-Indian, and African-Canadian younguns and juniors in the sport but, for the most part, they are the very visible minority. I do, think though, at times, that the mere fact of being different doesn't necessarily connote the social baggage that some would assume. I also think that kids are becoming much more colour-blind than previous generations - while I may allude to one of my children's friends as "Indian" or "Carribean", they do not.

I don't think, though, that my experiences in Canada are indicative of a diminishing racism in North America - they probably speak more to the fact that we're educated, speak without an accent, have either been born or mostly reared in North America and have thus assimilated, and that we are financially well-off. I also recognize that though I may be a visible minority, I cannot fathom the difficulties confronted by African American men in the U.S.

How do we invite the participation of a more multicultural group in equestrian sports? I think it requires a two-tiered approach incorporating both the governing bodies and the personal, but very effective, acts and actions, of individuals.

[bronwyn]

the historical legacy of slavery is the institutonalized racism portia spoke to,which has made a permanent underclass of most nonwhites in this country-(though poverty is colorblind) and lauriep makes another cogent point as to how urbanized they have had to become as well so participation in the horseworld for blacks et.al has been limited pretty much to "laborer"(though we all know that to be a groom is the most important job and where the true glory lay). I would like to point out that demographically speaking nonwhites are no longer the minority.if we are to gain their participation as riders and competitors we need to put political pressure on orginisations to make riding on a grassroots level
affordable and accessible and insist they break the social barriers which make the elite not the most accomplished or talented but merely the most socially priviledged.the Johnsons have succeeded in breaking into the old white monied aristocracy world of sponsors and their talented daughter is an exemplary sportsman by all reports and we can all benefit from their desire to promote the sport, but it takes political will not just a poster child to make real gains.

[Alyshazam]

I'm Puerto Rican 100% and I don't see many of us out at the Hunter shows. In fact I don't see many of us at horse shows period. Is anyone out there PR?

[halla]

My firend is half Japanese, there are several kids in our 4-H club that may be half Indian (I know their mother is not), and we probably have some other Asians I didn't notice. One of our instructors, no sorry two of them, are black, and are uniformly loved by all of our kids. Finally, one of the local biggish name trainers (also judges - he is my favorite local judge) is black. What is most fustrating is when someone (who doesn't know this) is looking for him, and people will describe him in minute detail without mentioning this rather noticable fact. To me, that is far more "racist" then just saying "Oh, you can't miss him, he's the black guy in the judges' stand." To me, that is no more important than what color jackey he's wearing, only in the land of white people that exists at the average hrose show it certainly makes finding someone quicker.

Michelle

[SoEasy]

I love Melvin /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif One of the best, most knowledgable horsemen around. I was just thinking about him as I read this thread.

[pt]

interesting point, to make riding accessible.

When I was a kid and where I lived, riding was very accessible. Although it was a big city, there were probably a dozen stables in easy reach, and riding trails not only in the suburbs but in the urban parks. My family was far from wealthy, but with the help of my chore and babysitting income, we could manage a 10-week ticket for riding lessons. There were also trailride concessions in every state park during the summer. Now, some of the stables were good, some notsogood, ditto the trailride concessions - but they all offered access to horses and riding to people who would otherwise have no exposure.

There were good horseshows easily reached, and a lot of people who weren't "horsepeople" attended them. These were multi-discipline, multi-breed shows with extra attractions such as the Budweiser Clydesdales - i.e., they provided entertainment for the audience as well as competition for the horse aficionados.

Maybe most of these people never owned a horse, maybe most didn't go on riding for a lifetime, but the situation did expose a lot of people to horses, and I think, gave them an appreciation of the sport which seems to have been lost in the general sense.

So what has happened? Land developer greed, planning commission greed which doesn't allow for open green spaces, a litigous society which pushed the cost of insurance for public barns beyond reason. Maybe even the political and societal trend toward a socialistic view which glorifies vulgarity and despises activities which don't fit the "common" mode. Horses, opera, good music, art, theater - you name it, it's been damaged. But I digress.

Anyway, since we are now living in a society with narrowed viewpoint and opportunity, how do we expand social consciousness to include horse sports as acceptable, fun, and reasonably available to a wide range of people? I don't know - throwing the question to open consideration.

[hobson]

correction, pt - we evil socialists LIKE the fine arts, since they so frequently offer a radical left political/social analysis. We can't bear the "vulgar" apolitical, banal crap found on popular tv and radio. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (Many of us also like horses, even if you think we belong in jail or something.) Please don't blame us for what the capitalist land developers and consumerist suburbanites are doing to open space, thank you.

[B.G.M. heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So what has happened? Land developer greed, planning commission greed which doesn't allow for open green spaces, a litigous society which pushed the cost of insurance for public barns beyond reason. Maybe even the political and societal trend toward a socialistic view which glorifies vulgarity and despises activities which don't fit the "common" mode. Horses, opera, good music, art, theater - you name it, it's been damaged. But I digress.

Anyway, since we are now living in a society with narrowed viewpoint and opportunity, how do we
expand social consciousness to include horse sports as acceptable, fun, and reasonably available to a wide range of people? I don't know - throwing the question to open consideration.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does any of the above have to do with encouraging minority participation in equestrian sports?

[HeyYouNags]

is that I see minorities becoming involved with horses, but not with H/J or dressage. The growing middle- and upper middle-income African American population in parts of MD is getting involved, but they're riding Western- mostly trail riding and barrel racing.

I think there are also more minorities - African American and perhaps Hispanic?- moving up in racing (i.e., not just grooms and hot walkers, but trainers or owners.)

H/J and dressage, IMHO, are much more prone to the perception that they're wealthy and elitist than some other equestrian activities. Western riding may seem more accessible to people new to horses.

[NancyL]

I have a friend who is of Korean descent (she is 1st generation american). She married a Swede and just had her first baby -- a blonde haired blue eyed boy!

She said it is a little odd - -she hadn't really thought about it when she was pregnant. But she loves him anyway (as do her very traditional parents).

I prefer the term "American of "african/italian/german/chinese/japanese/whatever" descent" -- many of us are way past the first generation to be born here and have never been near "the homeland".

The USA is my homeland. First and foremost I am an American -- not German, Irish, English or any of the other places listed on the pedigree.

[C-Urchn]

Amen. I'm red, white and blue blooded, and born in the USA!

(I'm about as American as my Lambourghini. TeeHee.
My dad is Lakota, my mom was born in Portugal.)

[AMom]

You know, this is off topic, but call me tunnel-visioned, I never thought about folks in Canada referring to themselves or others as "African Canadian" as we use the term African American here. Is that as common there as here? Purely curious as I love anything to do with language, word/name origins etc. I also have had little exposure to Canadians and Canadian culture before this BB.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[B.G.M. heidi]

No, the phenomena of prefacing one's citizenship with one's motherland hasn't yet struck Canada; in fact, most people would firstly identify themselves by their 'home country' than as a Canadian. Perhaps this is a consequence of the cultural identity crisis from which we suffer as your neighbours to the north. My kids, though, identify themselves as neither Korean or Czech but simply as Canadians.

I'd also offer that we're less politically correct with racial designations. For years, I referred to myself as an Oriental until told by an American friend that I had committed a terrible sin - I'm an Asian - and I suppose he'd know 'cause he's Jewish. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My Black friends similarly do not refer to themselves as African-Canadian. Perhaps these distinctions are proportionate to the social/economic/racial inequities suffered by various groups in this country - most of the Japanese people I know refer to themselves as Japanese-Canadian.

[valentine1]

Yup, Heidi, you are absolutely right. I learned from many of my computer consulting associates that the term "Oriental" is not appropriate. People prefer to refer to themselves as "Asian," that is, I am not a rug. I didn't say it, he did!

[pt]

Hey, Heidi - it seems clear to me that if there is no open land and/or no encouragement for public stables (boarding/lesson/livery), then those folks, like myself, who could learn to ride there will not have the opportunity to do so.

As for the rest of the paragraph, I SAID I digressed! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hobson - OK, please regard the ex-USSR for a perfect example of quality of life in a socialist country. Also, please regard the dumbing down of American education in the name of egalitarianism. As for socialist polemics in theatre lately, I wouldn't know. Athough I attended a few of those plays in my student radical days, I avoid that sort of banal and boring evening now. BTW, do you own horses or ride? How do you justify such expensive entertainment in the light of your avowedly radical politics? Or, like many parlor liberals, do you talk the liberal talk and walk a different walk? And how, since this county doesn't have national subsidies for riders, did you get the $$$ to feed your hobby other than through the capitalist system? Just curious...

[HeyYouNags]

Wow, pt. Harsh. And this relates to the topic of "bringing more minorities into English riding" how???

[LaurieB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For years, I referred to myself as an Oriental until told by an American friend that I had committed a terrible sin - I'm an Asian - <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heidi, I've heard that too, from a Japanese/Hawaiian friend who was surprised to find out he couldn't call himself Oriental if he wanted to. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Similar problem with my black friends, most of whom are not from Africa. Nothing more annoying than being corrected by the PC police when they don't know what they're talking about. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't use the term African-American, Asian-American, etc... if they were BORN in America then they're AMERICAN... regardless of skin color or features or ancestry.. that's like me calling myself "German/French/British-American."

- K a h l u a -
PIX (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1521322)

[hobson]

pt, I can't understand why you harbor such apparently seething resentment towards me. I've tried to respond to your comments in as friendly and joking manner as I could, but it becomes evident that you imagine me with the intellect of a tree stump. We obviously share a love for horses, so I am baffled by your condescension and derision. I am just going to ignore the "parlor liberal" (whatever that means) insults you persist in flinging and go on reading this interesting thread.

[pt]

HeyYouNags - please read my previous post talking about the loss of public stables. I don't know how to get minorities into english riding. Looking at the cost of horses on the h/j thread, I'm not really sure how we keep anyone in english riding! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hobson - OK, maybe we both read too much into each other's posts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, although your comments about capitalism and your slurs against this country are hard to accept as "humor" - well, we all have different senses of humor and I'll accept that you might be joking. Do you have any ideas about spreading the joys of riding, esp. english, beyond the wealthy? I've posted some of what I see as a problem - loss of public riding stables, i.e., loss of forest preserve programs priced so lower income kids can enjoy them. But as stated, I don't have an answer.

BTW, "parlor liberal" is an old term for those who talk radically while living extremely comfortable lives. Actually, it's less offensive than many terms - I guess I'm asking just how you live up to your stated leftist ideals. NOMB, just curious.

[linquest]

As the one who instigated this debate, I thought I should explain myself before people started speculating /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but Em already did it perfectly for me...Thanks Em!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But what was the point of this thread? To incite feelings of guilt on behalf of descendants of former slave owners? No. To conjure feelings of unjustice among those who are minorities? No.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, does it surprise anyone that the minority riders that people can name just happen to be some of the wealthiest of minorities--well, of most people in general--in America (Montel Williams, the Johnsons)? I have to agree with pt *gasp* /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that the larger question is "about spreading the joys of riding, esp. english, beyond the wealthy" although I do feel that minorities need more support (and I'm not necessarily talking monetarily here).

Overall, I think that horse lovers will continue to feel the urban squeeze if the over-inflated costs of the sport continue. I mean $60-$150K for a kids eq horse? Please.... Any proposed solutions?

[barngirl]

I am a minority, but I first and foremost a rider... I was adopted, and to the best of my knowledge, but birthfather was half White and half Black. Most people refer to me as a mulato, when they find out I am part Black( quite frankly saying African American takes too long!:)!!!). I really should correct them and say I am a quatroon.. as I am only 1/4 black ( mulato is half and half). But I simply say that I prefer BI-racial... or as the applications like to refer to us as OTHER!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I have to say that I don't expereince much racism from White people, as most don't realize I am bi-racial.. Yet Blacks always seem to know... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most whites think I am Mexican or Italian... living near Detroit with a large Arabic culture I am sometimes mistaken for a very tall arabic or possible Greek woman.
My hardest part at shows is that most people treat me like I am a groom.. which makes me feel sorry for the Mexican Grooms. It's not until people see me actually riding my horse or talking about my horse that they realize otherwise. BUt I haven' had any discrimination in the show ring as of yet, but I am only showing on the "C" circuit, which is realtively small.
I recently won my Inter. Adult EQ otf, out of a good size class... I got 4th in of.... on a green horse too... Okay sorry for the bragging.. but I have to say the judge didn't seem to care. But then some people think I have a really nice tan. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I would love to see more Minorities in the sport... but I can understand that the cost are not easy.. I scrape by and make ends meet best I can. I think that more Blacks are drawn to the the western disciplnes, as it is easier to get into... cost of horses and boarding facilities are less, and there is more heritage in the western disciplnes than in the hj world. Think Buffalo Soldiers here... The HJ is seen as a white eletist sport... my two white adpotive parents have often questioned my interest in HJ... not seeing it as a viable option... wondering if I would be happier being a trail guide!!!! But I love to jump... and as in the rest of my life... I will always be a minority and i will deal with it as I always have... I will do my best, represent my self to the best of my ability and be proud of who I am. I will also go out of my way to encourage minorities of any kind ( ethnically, physically or whathave you) to pursue their dreams. Even is it means standing alone... I am happy riding my horses and no one can take that away from me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[davidgud - equestrian jihad]

I'm a heterosexual hunter jumper/trail riding male freak in my 30's who is single . . . do I qualify????????

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Overall, I think that horse lovers will continue to feel the urban squeeze if the over-inflated costs of the sport continue. I mean $60-$150K for a kids eq horse? Please.... Any proposed solutions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, encourage the fun aspect. Cross the competitive bridge when it comes. So many kids are happy riding and working at the barn and are years from wanting to show.

I think more co-op agreements with barns and horse owners would be a start. For instance, when your kid out grows his/her clothing, pass it along to the barn clothing chest, or give it away to a kid just starting out. When old Sparky the Wonderpony is outgrown, find a way for him to stay rather than be sold so the next kid can take advantage of him.

Barns interested in a minority riding program could start a van service and after school program that not only teaches riding but also offers homework assistance. For start up money for these services, consult your local public library for foundation and grant directories.

Reduced Pony Club memberships.

Increase public profile by speaking to schools or churches. Again, let that little light shine.

Show organizers could also look at ways to highlight their events. If no one knows you're having a show, how the heck will they know it's a pleasant family outing? The CDI-W Raleigh does a good job of having a pet-a-pony where volunteers answer children's questions, pass out pamphlets, etc.

If your show charges a spectator fee, then distribute lots of free passes to organizations like Boys and Girls Clubs of America, YMCA, church afterschool programs, school programs, 4-H, etc.

BE FRIENDLY. Lord knows how many of us look sour faced and weather beaten at shows, including the lovely me /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But a smile, a how-are-ya, or even chatting briefly can change how people react to what looks like an elitest sport.

Okay, that's enough from this white, liberal, who does own her horse, but keeps her on free board at a local organic farm, and who just gave away her kid's outgrown riding clothes to a family she's never met.

[Portia]

Posted by Davidgud:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm a heterosexual hunter jumper/trail riding male freak in my 30's who is single . . . do I qualify???????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmmm, yes, David, I think you qualify as a definate minority in the H/J world. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

However... you are a minority who is in a position of great power -- like the stallion in a herd of mares and foals. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[NancyL]

Has anyone done the "Big Brother/Big Sister" route?

I have thought of voluntering to help out a Big/Little sister pair where the Little one likes horses, but the Big sister has no interest.

[hp]

Slow to respond, but I'm catching up after being gone.

Joliemom those are good suggestions

Does "growing our sport" have to mean increasing the numbers who compete? If so, the financial costs make it is difficult for most people, regardless of ethnic background, to get involved. Maybe we should emphasize simply getting people involved in horses.

Its easier to get involved in sports like tennis or golf. The equipment investment is small (compared to horses) and there are more city courts, driving ranges and public courses available. (Than there is access to public riding stables.)

[WHOA!]

Well, interesting thread, but I think that saying minorities are staying out of the sport for strictly financial reasons is oversimplifying (and racist, to tell you the truth. There are millions of minorities who are as well or better off financially than I am).

Let's face it, is it any real surprise that we see a lack of diversity in a sport where little horse-crazy girls (black, white, purple, whatever)are ostracized for having the wrong brand of breeches? Give me a break. I think that joliesmom and Heidi made very good and vital points when they said that it's going to take the actions of individuals (in other words--be nice! be friendly! be gracious! even if the rider's choker is not monogrammed!)to make our sport grow.

This thread makes me think of a show I was at a couple of years ago. Just a little, local, unrated show. This girl had brought her horse, both were obviously VERY green, she didn't have a trainer, and her turnout was -- gasp-- very unfashionable. She went in for her first round in short stirrup, and her horse stopped at nearly every fence. You could hear the trainers and riders around the in gate grumbling really uncharitable comments. "God, what does she think she's doing here?" crap like that. Poor kid came out of the ring, visibly upset, nobody talks to her, just avoids her like she's a leper. All except for one trainer, the guy we bought our horse from, was visiting from out of town. He went up to the girl, took her aside, and said, "ok, good, here's what you need to do for your next course." He HELPED her, she went in, he coached her from the side of the ring, she did much better and came out beaming. Thank god he was there to be nice to this total stranger, because otherwise our sport could've very easily lost another rider.

Now, I know that story had nothing to do with minorities, but I posted it because I felt like it really illustrated a very pervasive problem with our sport--most of us act like total jerks for no good reason. We want our sport to grow, we need to get our acts together in this regard.

Now, please excuse me while I go find the most flame retardent clothing I own. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by WHOA! on Jun. 04, 2001 at 10:47 AM.]

[Duffy]

Great story, WHOA!

You won't need that flame retardant suit! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Finzean]

I did this program and was involved with a 13 year old girl of mixed heritage (octoroon, quadroon??? She was just little Tanya to me!). She had some interest in horses but by the time she finally got into the program and we were matched....well, long story short - I never believed the theory of "victim of one's environment" until I met this kid.

Anyway, there was a farm about 20 miles out of town that started a inner city youth program. They had lots of land and took some retired, unsound show horses (and other animals) that loved the attention they got on visitation days. Different children's orgs and programs would come out on various days and learn about farming, animal husbandry, etc. and get to interact with hogs, horses, goats, cows, sheep, chickens....the farm help would explain different machinery, things like that. It was a great program and one that would benefit so many people (not just minorities - I felt like I was the one learning alot while I was doing BB/BS!) These folks weren't rich but they used their resources to provide this program to the area. How to get minorities more involved in the sport... I don't know for sure; I'm inclined to think that in time, as another poster stated, that the demographics of H/J and dressage will change dramatically.

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

[Sannois]

at the racisim I'm seeing. When you people start treating each other like Human beings I'll be back. Theres only one race that matters, and thats the Human Race. Please dont offend me with your racist observations.

[Finzean]

WHOA! - What a great post! You make such a good point about why people, all sorts of people, avoid H/J and seek horsey amusements elsewhere - o feel so intimidated by the horsey set that they pursue other hobbies entirely (my parents, for example own horses but do not participate in h/j stuff - even when I was doing h/j stuff).

I am a self professed tack snob and a stickler for doing everything "just so" - whether it be attire or whatever - and I know I'm not alone. I don't think that traditional attire needs to be changed to encourage participation but just imagine if everyone behaved as selflessly and generously as your friend!! I hope to be the type of giving person like him...

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

[hp]

The intent of my post was not to say all minorities are at an economic disadvantage and therefore aren't involved in horses or showing. I know this is not the case. My words were poorly chosen and quickly written. I'm sorry they came across that way.

I focused on the economic factor (which was touched on by Joliemom i.e. reduced pony club fees, seeking grants for funding transportation) because of my own personal experience. (Which may or may not be similar to any other human's) Its the primary reason for my not being able to be involved in horses or showing until I reached my thirties. Also catching my attention, are other discussions on this BB about how people scrimp and save in order to have their horse and/or show. So, I do see the financial aspect as an obstacle for many people's (Hispanic, Asian, white, black, purple, green, whatever) involvement.

[ponyperson]

I know I'm jumping in late, but am I a WASC, white anglo saxon catholic????

Jigga wha?

[suecoo]

Hi, my name is Susan and I'm an avid equestrian of African-American decent. This is a very interesting thread we were just discussing recently on an Eventing List Server Group I belong to. I find it most interesting to learn about others like myself who have come to love horses and the various equestrian disciplines. I personally love Polo, Showjumping and Eventing (okay, I may be a closet DQ too).

I have been riding since I was a child here in Texas and abroad (England) and I can testify to many good and bad experiences, such as rejection at Hunter shows back in the mid 60's to the wonderful camaraderie I have with my many friends in Eventing and Show Jumping now. I ride a with a wonderful German instructor who has a culturally diverse barn (Brits, Germans, and Americans). Though, only another young boy and myself are African American.

I think the two primary reason you don't see a lot of AA in this sport is because they are not exposed to it (early on) and it is economically very challenging. Kathy Kushner (One of the greatest show jumping riders of all time)has started a program called "Horses In The Hood" which offers low income minorities exposure to this sport. It is a wonderful program based in L.A. that combines disadvantaged children with horses. They are always in need of donations.

Thankfully my family was quite well off and I was exposed to Polo and Hunters at a very young age, so I've had a love for both sports since I was a child.

Here are a few other minorities I am aware of:
* William Randall Ward III - African American Eventer
* Nadeen Noon - Pakistani Eventer
* Paige Johnson - African American Hunter Rider
* Grace Provatilov - Asian Eventer
* John David Smith - African American Eventer and Irish Sport Horse/Warmblood Breeder

[Portia]

Suecoo, welcome to the boards, fellow Houstonian! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif We have a Texas Clique here and we always welcome new members. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(The cliques are all in good fun, and anybody is free to join whatever cliques they want to join, or none at all.)

[Miniwelsh]

So glad you are here and enjoying this thread! I have to mention that if my daughter ever meets you, you will be her new favorite idol since you are from her favorite city in the country, Houston /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[suecoo]

Thanks for the warm welcome Portia and Mini! I'm glad to be here. SueCoo /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> William Randall Ward III - African American Eventer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I saw him go ths weekend in the **. He finished 18th on just his dressage score (clear CC and SJ)

[Snowbird]

It is the fact that it never discriminated against anyone not even girls! When I joined this industry the top five trainers in the state of New Jersey were all black Americans.

I was the classic middle class blonde white sheltered American when I purchased Suburban Essex and I had on my payroll 10 black Americans who became my best friends and with whom I would gladly trust my children and my horses.

If you look back over the history through the fine arts all the way back to Greece you will see the black man as the ultimate person for handling horses. The gentlemen who worked for me taught me so much about the care of horses that has never been put into books.

Sullivan Davis is the one who trained my girls to ride with love and affection and caring not about winning but about horsemanship. He trained the Leone brothers and 100's of others. I never saw his color because we were friends as well as business associates and I trusted him with my most precious thing, my children. No one in our barn every thought about their color because when you had a problem they could always solve that problem.

If we have not made people of color feel welcome in this sport it may be because we have stopped being horsemen and are only concerned with being people who win ribbons for our own gratification and not for the love of the animals. I think affluence is not an excuse for bad manners.

I don't believe that the cost is the reason, I don't believe that there are not black people who have as much money or opportunity as our white children, I do believe that they probably do not share our sport because they are more interested in the horses than people.

Anyone, whatever their color, whatever their size, whatever their genetic history is discriminated against simply because they do not choose the chaseing of points and ribbons as a way of life.

Just think about the deprecating posts made against those of us who choose to run a "Riding School". Read back the posts about the imagined pain and suffering of the "school" horse. So whatever their color or conformation if we are to be truly introspective then let's recognize that the only ones respected are the so-called elitists who claim to be in search of excellence. Just look at the attitude toward old fashioned one-day shows with old fashioned pleasures and sportsmanship.

If there are less black people there then, perhaps it's because it has become such a worthless recreational activity with the accumulation of ribbons meaning more than training and schooling and making new horses and riders. It may seem difficult to understand but many of us in the 98% who do not support those programs actually enjoy horses and for that you don't need to be rich nor do you require a horse that's costs more than your house. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jun. 04, 2001 at 03:58 PM.]

[Jumphigh83]

Good for you Snowbird! You are exactly right.

Betsy