Quick question about a hoof injury! (UPDATE from good vet)

[Chanda]

On Saturday I went out to visit my horse at the lay-up facility and found a thick piece of wire from the fence sticking into the bottom of his hoof. It pulled out easily but had a tiny bit of bloody goo on the wire. It did penatrate into the hoof but I can't see how far it went (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch) because it was in the crack on the side if the frog. The barn manage put some furacin onto the area and wrapped it up really well.

I am going to go out this morning and take the bandage off and check it out. There is a vet coming by this afternoon that I can share a farm call with to look at his hoof. How will I know if I need to have the vet look at it? What are some signs that it is not just a small superficial puncture? I have some icthamol from when he had an abcess, would that be a good thing to use on a puncture, to draw out any infection? I would hate to spend money on the vet if all they are going to do is tell me to slap something on it and wrap it.

This is why I hate boarding! Old fences!

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[This message was edited by Chanda on Mar. 06, 2002 at 01:18 PM.]

[Chanda]

On Saturday I went out to visit my horse at the lay-up facility and found a thick piece of wire from the fence sticking into the bottom of his hoof. It pulled out easily but had a tiny bit of bloody goo on the wire. It did penatrate into the hoof but I can't see how far it went (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch) because it was in the crack on the side if the frog. The barn manage put some furacin onto the area and wrapped it up really well.

I am going to go out this morning and take the bandage off and check it out. There is a vet coming by this afternoon that I can share a farm call with to look at his hoof. How will I know if I need to have the vet look at it? What are some signs that it is not just a small superficial puncture? I have some icthamol from when he had an abcess, would that be a good thing to use on a puncture, to draw out any infection? I would hate to spend money on the vet if all they are going to do is tell me to slap something on it and wrap it.

This is why I hate boarding! Old fences!

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[This message was edited by Chanda on Mar. 06, 2002 at 01:18 PM.]

[Quinn]

If you are at all able, I would try using a small syringe to "squirt" either some betadine or even peroxide (only once) into the puncture. Otherwise, a warm epsom salt soak followed up by a repeat of the treatment you've already done should suffice.

[This message was edited by Quinn on Mar. 05, 2002 at 08:08 AM.]

[lilblackhorse]

I would suggest a little soaking--soak the whole foot in betadine or something else that will penetrate to clean. Punctures are the absolute worst, and you are dealing with a hoof--loads of bacteria from all the crap he steps in. Be cautious.

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Chanda]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I scrubed out his foot with betadine and warm water before we wrapped it. I made sure the whole foot was really clean and really scrubed the hole as much as possible and rinsed it really well.

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[JB]

Ditto to squirting and soaking - Epsom salts and betadine, a couple times a day if possible. Definitely squirt some betadine up there - maybe diluted 1:1 with water. Keep the foot bandaged to keep gunk out.

[Louise]

Sure, he may tell you that all you need is do is slap and wrap, but, invasive hoof injuries like this can be conduits for infection. Also, even though your horse is vaccinated for tetenus, he may want to give a booster.

Also, the next time you find something like that in the hoof, your best bet is to call the vet immediately and DO NOT pull it out. In some cases you can do serious damage, if you do. You don't know how far into the hoof such a thing may have pushed.

I would also do a complete lookover of the paddock he is in, where there is one piece of wire, there may be others.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

[Chanda]

That is what I thought! I saw it there and went over to tell the barn manager. The the barn manager pulled it out, and I didn't think she should have but, she is the specialist. It came out easily and you could see exactly how much of the wire was sticking in. It was between 1/4 and 1/2 inch into the crack of the frog. Probably only 1/8 of an inch actually going in where it really shouldn't be.

I have never really dealt with this kind of thing before. I looked all over the paddock for more pieces of wire but it is a mixture of sand and shavings and there is no way I can be sure that there is not more out there.

I am heading over at noon to check it out again. Maybe I can just talk to the vet and see what he says.

Thanks

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[Flash44]

I've heard of using a syringe (no needle) to squirt penicillin directly into the puncture, but never actually tried it myself.

Napliss - the capital of Merlin

[Ghazzu]

I'm with those who would advise against pulling these things out in general--the best way to handle them is to do a quick radiograph with the wire in place to see how far it penetrated.

There was no way of telling before you barn manager pulled it out whether it was into the coffin bone or joint space, and these tend to seal over as soon as you remove them, so it can be difficult to tell afterwards.

(Obviously, if one is half a mile out in the pasture and there is a long bit sticking out, this isn't always possible.)

I would give your DVM a jingle--if your horse hasn't had a tetanus vaccination since last spring, get it done now.

[Chanda]

I will have a vet look at it today since there is one coming out (not my regular). I guess this is just one of those things that you have to deal with when boarding, kind of no ones fault. I sure wish I could get the barn to pay for it though, ug. Darn!

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[findeight]

Not necessarily just boarding. Horses seem to find things to get into regardless, sometimes I think a paper bag is good enough to cause a 6 week lay up for some.
At any rate concur with advice to get the vet out. Soak in epsom salts and poultice/wrap for a few days. Watch for a spike in temperature to indicate infection and abcess. If you are careful it does not sound like it went in so deep as to cause anything beyond this.

A good reputation taking thousands of years to build can be destroyed in a few hours.

[Chanda]

When I got to the barn Chases leg was swollen so I definitely decided to have the vet look at it.

So basically, I waited two hours for the vet to come (he was an hour+ late) and all he did was poke a dirty hoof pick in there and watch him trot. Then he just said to watch it! This is one of the best vets in the area so I was kind of surprized when he didn't want to do ANYTHING. He didn't even bring the 4 way vaccine that Chase was due for (with the tetnus in it). He didn't even want to put Chase on SMZ's.

Now that I have waisted many hours waiting for him to show and money paying him, should I call my regular vet and have her come out and look at it too? I really didn't want to just leave it unwrapped and swollen. UG!

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[lilblackhorse]

his whole leg is swollen now? This is not good, and I just really wonder what this vet was thinking, IMO. Geez, you don't mess around with punctures, and the fact that the leg, or part of it, is swollen, is not a good sign.

I personally would call the old vet if it were me. I would continue to soak it in epsom salts and keep it clean. I almost lost my horse to a puncture this fall, and it cost me thousands. Trust your instincts and get a second opinion is what I say.

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Chanda]

His leg basically looks like it is 'stocked up'. No heat. He had an abcess on that same hoof a few months ago and spent a week with it bandaged and his leg didn't swell then. He is also in a turnout now and before he was in a stall so it is not like he is prone to stocking up or anything.

I put a call in to my regular vet but she may not call back till this evening or even tomorrow.

This sucks! I am freaking out. He is not even wrapped at all, just out there in the dirt. He didn't even recommend soaking it. I think I am freaking out now.

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[lilblackhorse]

sounds like cellulitis to me,if it is stocked up and he is not lame....means that perhaps infection entered at the puncture site and migrated into the tissues. Will got this last august, and it seems to happen every time now.
Interestingly, the first vet didn't treat Will's properly-he hosed and iced and wrapped...duh. I called in vet number two and we got antibiotics and knocked it down.

I would at least soak it again and wrap the hoof to keep it clean if I were you...until the next vet can come look at it (this is an "if I were you" kind of thing)...jmho

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Peggy]

Hmm. Sounds like the vet did just what you were afraid he would!

Another vote on the soaking routine. If Chase doesn't want to stand with his foot in a bucket of warm epsom salt solution, you can make a sort of poultice by putting the solid salt on a piece of damp cotton (about the size of the bottom of the hoof). Then put that on the bottom of his hoof, use some wide gauze to hold it in place, and finish off with duct tape.

Did it bleed when she pulled it out? Considered a good sign, I think, if it didn't go in too far.

Right after I got my now-17 y.o. horse he stepped on a nail. Since we didn't know him well, we treated it pretty aggresively by soaking it and putting him on antibiotics.

Good luck.

[JB]

It *could* still be an abcess - my guy has had 4 abcesses, 3 in the same foot. Of all 4, only 1 caused swelling, and that was in the foot/leg that had 3 of them. But certainly do not rule out cellulitis - that could turn pretty nasty if not treated now.

[lilblackhorse]

yes, that is true too. I just did the "cellulitis because of an abcess" thing...all cellulitis needs is an "in" to get the bacteria or whatever into the tissue. Will's got in thru his abcess via a heel bruise. Go figure.

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Chanda]

Now I am pissed. My horse is out there with a swollen leg and a hole in the bottom of his hoof standing in his dirty paddock and I can't do anything about it until tomorrow. What is wrong with this vet?!? He didn't even recommend soaking it or anything. I hope the fact that it is unwrapped and dirty doesn't make things worse and cost me more money for something that is not even my fault in the first place and never would have happened at home.

The vet did say that he was not lame on it at all. I guess that was his excuse for not doing anything. He said if he becomes tender that he would put him on antibiotics. Does this sound normal, do nothing until it hurts?

Bowed tendon: 41 days down, minimum 19 days to go.

[elizabeth]

Chanda, why don't you call the vet that saw him?

Seriously, I think it is TOTALLY reasonable for you to call that vet - maybe even have him paged if you think you need to - and just say "I am really nervous b/c his leg is swollen. Could we try antibiotics just as a precaution?"

Good luck.

[jcotton]

Start soaking the hoof in epsom salts for at least 20 minutes, twice a day if you can. Then wrap in icthamol with a baby diaper,lots of duct tape. You can also give bute to reduce the swelling and increase the blood flow to the area. And give him a tetanus antitoxin shot, your local feed stores should carry the tetanus antitoxin. And get your own vet out there to look things over, but in the meantime get started on soaking and wrapping.

[Ghazzu]

With the exception of the tetanus antitoxin, I like jcotton's advice.
I avoid tetanus antitoxin because of the infrequent but possible sequel of hepatitis.

If the horse has ever had a tetanus vaccination, a simple booster of tetanus toxoid ought to kick up the antibodies.

[Chanda]

Another vet is coming out tomorrow and bringing the 4 way vaccine and will take another look at my horse. The barn manager said that his leg still looks the same as yesterday but agreed that soaking it in epsom salts sounds like a good idea. She really thinks that leaving it open to dry out is a good idea. I guess I kind of agree with her since it is already unwrapped and in the dirt. Having a second opinion will be nice, the vet coming out is THE best vet in the area and is flown all over the country to do prepurchases and is the owner of the practice that my regular vet works at. I think I will feel more comfortable with him looking at it too.

As for the epsom salts, how much salt and how much water? I have never had to do this before, luckily I have a bag of epsom salts from when one of my dogs had an abcessed anal gland, how handy.
Thanks

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[Chanda]

AH!!! My regular vet just called and told me to do all the things you guys have been saying. Soak in Epsom salts and betadine, keep really clean, wrap with ichthamol.

I am so pissed at this other vet. I am definitely NOT paying him for anything. If my horse gets really infected or something it will totally be his fault for not doing ANYTHING and leaving his foot IN THE DIRT.

I am going over there RIGHT NOW to take care of my poor horse.

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[Louise]

If I am recalling correctly, that first vet was "buttonholed" by you and the barn manager, when he showed up at the barn, it was not a regular appointment. The vet may not have had time to do a proper exam. That is not totally excusing this person. If he/she didn't have time to do a thorough exam, you should have been told so, and told to make an appointment with your regular vet, as soon as possible. There is no excuse for a "half-a$$ed" examination.

However, you should realize that vets have very tight appointment schedules, and having to take care of one or two unexpected horses at a barn can seriously set them back for the entire day.

As a matter of common courtesy, a call should be made to your vet, the situation explained, and an appointment set up. If the vet deems it an emergency, he can then have his staff make the appropriate calls to warn his other appointments that the vet will be late, due to an emergency, and offer the opportunity of setting another appointment. Otherwise, you end up with a whole stream of customers who may be upset that the vet is late, because they have changed their normal schedules to accomodate him. Unhappy regular customers do not make a vet a happy person.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

I'm speaking from the other side of the counter but withholding payment for services is a good way to make enemies and, believe me, word travels fast about problem clients.

I'm not saying that I agree with the treatment recommended by the first vet but you asked him/her for an opinion, took his/her time and you owe him/her payment for professional service provided.

Nobody is forcing you to use this vet ever again but the time may come that this particular vet is the only one available and an emergency is not the time to find out that you are on the "bad pay" list.

Not to mention that you could be turned over to a collection agency for the fee.

I'd advise paying the bill when it arrives and including a note describing your concerns over the recommended treatment, the treatment prescribed by your usual vet and the outcome. Maybe you can make the vet squirm and think a little deeper next time.

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

[Chanda]

The first vet was called early that morning and he said that he could look at my horse as well as the one he was originally seeing that day. It was his choice to either look at him or not so I assumed that when he said he would look, that he really meant he would look.

I have talked my my regular vet and have done what she recommded (soaking and wrapping). The owner of the practice that my regular vet works for is coming out tomorrow to see another horse and also said he would have time to look at my horse as well. My regular vet said this would be nice to have him look since he will already be there instead of her making a special trip.

When I did the soaking and wrapping today I also found an area on the back of his heel that 'looks' like an opening that might be draining 'stuff'. This really concerned me so I think that I will ask the vet if we should put him on antibiotics. My regular vet said that if they are tender on the foot OR there is swelling (which there is) that they should be on antibiotics.

The barn manager told me today that the first vet that saw him yesterday is a kind of 'wait and see' vet and she thinks of my vet as a 'do something now' kind of vet. Since I am a paranoid horse owner I think I prefer the 'do something now' vet!

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[Chanda]

I forgot to mention that I don't think I am even being charged for the first vet. I wouldn't just not pay and not tell anyone or say anything. I would just call them and tell them that I really didn't feel comfortable with what he did and he didn't really do anything at all so it is not like I am not paying him for supplies or things that he used on my horse. Seriously, all he did was pick up a dirty hoof pick that was laying on the ground, pick up the foot, poke at it twice, watch him trot and turn to me to ask me what I thought. He did say anything about how sound he looked or anything. Then he just said, 'wait and see'. That is it. It took less that 2 minutes which is about the amount of time that it took to bring the original horse he was coming to see out of it's stall and walk it over for him to look at.

I will pay half of the farm call (which I am not sure I am even being charge for) but I will not pay more than that. Sorry, but I feel like putting him back in the paddock with no protection was wrong. I didn't feel comfortable doing it and now my horse may have abcessed and had it burst out through his heel. I am not happy about that.

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[jcotton]

Back to your question of how much epsom salts and water.... I use about 1/4 -1/3 of a carton of the epsom salts that come in the 1/2 gallon size. Then put enough water into a deep black rubber feed tub to cover the hoof up to the coronary band. This deep rubber feed tub can be designated as your foot soaking tub.The water should be as hot as you can tolerate before you put the epsom salts in it. The epsom salts will cool it down alot.After soaking and drying off with a towel, I then put the icthamol on a gauze 4X4 on the hoof and then the diaper, and begin wrapping. Good luck and lots of patience. You may need to sit on a bucket with a good book to make sure the hoof stays in the epsom salts.

[findeight]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanda:


I will pay half of the farm call (which I am not sure I am even being charge for) but I will not pay more than that.

But he did look at your horse besides the charge for the farm call-which should be split.
Just because you disagree does not mean you don't pay for things. Take this track and nobody will come to service your horse. They'll be afraid you won't like what they say or do and not pay for it.
Word travels fast amongst vets and farriers about those who use their services and time then decide they don't like the work and don't pay.
Pay the vet and don't use him again.

A good reputation taking thousands of years to build can be destroyed in a few hours.

[Chanda]

I am sorry guys, I was just venting because I was pissed that this vet didn't do anything. He is not actually charging me at all because 'he didn't do anything'. He saw 3 other horses that day and they don't even want to split the farm call with me. I wish he WOULD have done something and charged me for it because I feel like my horse was put in danger from being unprotected overnight while I waited for my regular vet to call me back. If this guy would have just listened to me when I told him that his legs NEVER swell and that he doesn't really show pain at all, maybe he would have done something, but he didn't. I wish he didn't even waste the 2 minutes it took to look at my horse because if he would have just said that he didn't want to look at him at all, I would have called out my regular vet and had her actually DO something.

This guy should have just told me he didn't have time or care or whatever, rather than just do nothing and say nothing. I have to try and trust what a vet tells me because they are the professional, not me, and when a vet doesn't care and tells me to do nothing I have to try and believe it even if I don't agree with it. I just feel like I put my horse in danger because of this guy and that is not something I want to pay big money for.

I mean, every person who answered this topic AND my regular vet have all said the same thing, keep clean, soak, wrap, this is serious, etc. Everyone except the one Dr. that happened to come out and look at my horse.

Bowed tendon: 42 days down, minimum 18 days to go.

[Chanda]

The vet came out today and looked at my horse. I mean he really LOOKED at him and talked to me and was SO great. He said that the hole in the back of his heel was an abcess from the wire hole that had come out the back of his heel. He recomended soaking it maybe one more time and keeping it wrapped for two more days and said he would be fine. The swelling was down today so he didn't recommend antibiotics and said that the swelling was probably down because of the abcess bursting. He also gave Chase the 4-way vaccine and said that he should be all set.

I really like the vet that came out who is the owner of the practice that my regular vet works with. They are really great there! The vet said that I had done a good job taking care of his foot up until today and that it was vety clean. I have to say that it was probably because of all the help I got from you guys so, thank you for all of your great suggestions and help!

Bowed tendon: 43 days down, minimum 17 days to go.

[JB]

As far as how much Epsoms to water, I keep pouring Espoms in until it starts to not dissolve anymore - then you have saturated water. Ditto to the temp thing - hot when you start.

[Pocket Pony]

Chanda:

I must say I am glad this is turning out well for Chase and that he's doing ok.

I do have to disagree with your statement
"I am so pissed at this other vet. I am definitely NOT paying him for anything. If my horse gets really infected or something it will totally be his fault for not doing ANYTHING and leaving his foot IN THE DIRT."

You received plenty of information from this board and had presumably been back and forth between your computer and Chase before you saw the vet and when you saw the vet. While the vet thought it would be ok, YOU CHOSE not to do something about following your instincts when he said to just leave it. I don't doubt that you were worried about Chase, but soaking and wrapping certainly wouldn't have done any harm even if the vet said it was not neccesary.

Ditto what the others have said about withholding payment. We've got a girl in our area whose parents are known non-payers and now there is a long list of people who won't work with them.

"It's amazing how there's no time to do it right the first time but always time to do it over again."

[Chanda]

Like I said the vet didn't do anything and he is not charging me. No big deal.

The first wrap on Saturday was done by the barn manager. The first vet came out late on Monday and didn't want to do anything. At the time I didn't have anything to wrap the horse with. The Dr. didn't want to wrap it and because of that the barn manager didn't want to wrap it. I tried to tell the Dr. that I felt like something was more wrong with my horses foot that what the he thought but he didn't listen. I can not MAKE the Dr. wrap my horses foot. He didn't want to do anything and I can not make him. That doesn't mean I have to like it though.

I called my regular Dr. when I got home that night and she called me back the next morning, confirmed what all of you said here and left soaking and wrapping supplies at the front desk for me to pick up on my way out to the barn (where I went immediately after the phone call).

I picked them up and went to soak and wrap his foot and it had already abcessed and come out of his heel. I soaked and wrapped that day and the other vet came out the next morning and confirmed that he should have been wrapped and that a swollen leg was a sign of something serious.

Everything seems to be going well now. I am soaking and wrapping daily, the swelling is down, he had his tentus shot and he seems to be doing well and healing. I wish the first vet would have done more but I can not control that. I was definitely very upset by him and what he did not do but I think I fixed that by having the other vet out and taking care of things.

I would have thought that you guys would have been proud of me for not listening to a vet I didn't feel like I could trust and finding someone to REALLY help my horse, not yelling at me because I didn't want to pay for shoddy vet work (which I am not getting charged for anyway). I am sorry that I was upset and made that post but I just want the best for my horse and that does not include using vets that see a problem and don't want to do anything about it.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[Louise]

What would you do differently next time?

I think that you are right, that people are upset with you. And I am sure it is because you dilly-dallied so much, between the time that the first vet said not to wrap, and the second time. You didn't have wrapping materials? You could have gone to a tack store, and picked up vet wrap, icthomal and any other medical supplies you need, gone to any drug store and picked up either rolled cotton, or baby diapers. You needed to just get the job done, and get it done fast.

You were lucky, Chanda. That is the truth. This situation could have ended up much differently.

What should you do differently? Start keeping a basic medical supply kit at home. There are threads here, and I believe on Off Course, that tell you what to have in these kits. Carry a kit in the car, on the ocassions when your horse is boarded. Horses are going to hurt themselves, and you cannot always depend on someone else to have what you need.

And, do some reading about horse care. Learn, learn, learn - so that the next time something like this happens, you will be better prepared.

One thing for you to think about. If I am reading right, you are kind of in the middle of nowhere. You need to start thinking about what you would do if your horse coliced. Talk to your vet about keeping a tube of banamine paste at home. Yes, you may have to throw it out if it expires and get a new one, but, that would be better than having a very painful horse and no way to alleviate his pain until the vet gets there. Give the banamine only with the vet's permission, of course.

Also, make sure you know who to do your horse's vitals. Pulse, respiration, temperature and capillary refill are all important. You would need to know your horses normal stats, so that you could tell the difference. If, when you call the vet, you give him the horse's current stats, you can help him make a decision about just what state your horse is in. If there is no one around who can teach you these things, talk to your vet about it. I know mine is glad to explain how to do all these things, if it is in conjunction with a routine call, and he knows ahead of time that the customer wants a short course about how to!

Always remember, that, ultimately, this horse depends on you for his well being.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

[This message was edited by Louise on Mar. 08, 2002 at 07:37 AM.]

[Chanda]

I didn't have wrapping supplies because I thought the VET would be wrapping it. That is why I had the vet look at my horse, to make sure that he was OK and to wrap and give him the tetnus shot. When the vet did nothing I went straight home and called my regular vet. She didn't call me back until the next morning because she didn't think it was an emergency. I picked up the supplies right away and drove straight out to take care of my horse.

I am not sure what you wanted me to do? I don't think you can buy icthamol at the grocery store. Besides, the first vet that looked at Chase is a VERY prominant vet in this area, he has a very large and well known pratice and is supposed to be one of the best vets in CA. Am I really not supposed to think even for one minute that he might know what he is talking about? Yes, I didn't agree and yes, it should have been wrapped and yes, I called my other vet to take care of it but I can't believe that you are telling me that 'I' was wrong. Wasn't it the 'vet' that was wrong? I did everything I could do to fix the situation.

It is a great idea to have a first aid kit in the car since my horse is so far from home but since I was meeting the vet I really thought 'I' wouldn't need equipment, that is why they drive trucks full of stuff like bandages, shots and icthamol. I really did think I could depend on a VET for my veterinary needs.

I do have a basic first aid kit at home for my horse, it does not however contain banamine. When my horse gets sick I call the vet immediately and let them take care of administering any medication. My vet will come out immediately for emergencies like colic. Her and her practice is actually very close to me so it doesn't take her long to get here (Chase got bit by a spider and had a strange reaction and she was here FAST).

So since you all think I am a horrible horse owner and completely unprepared do deal with any medical situation should I just leave or what? I personally feel like I did a pretty good job under the circumstances and the second vet actually told me that I did a great job and complimented me twice on how I dealt with the situation and my wonderful wrapping skills. Why is it that everyone in 'real' life is saying I did great and you guys are the only ones that are trying to make me feel bad.

You guys are making it seem like I did nothing and didn't care. Personally I feel like, noticing the damn thing in the first place was good, and not pulling it out was good (the barn manager did though before I could stop her), and wrapping it was good and having the vet look at it was good, and not trusting what he said was good , and calling my regular vet right away was good, and getting supplies from her was good, and soaking it and wrapping it was good, and having another vet out to look at him was good, and getting his tetnus vaccine taken care of was good, and keeping it soaked and wrapped some more was good. So all that I did that was bad was not carry wrapping supplies to a VET appointment?

This is too much. I am a person that is knowledgable enough to know when to call the vet and not try and take care of things myself. That is what I have always done in my almost 20 years of horse experience. When it comes to my horses health, I call the vet. That is what I do, I have a special savings account JUST for things like this and I NEVER touch that money except for veterinary things. I don't feel like that is a bad thing at all. They are the professionals and I would rather pay them to take care of my horse than possibly diagnose something wrong and treat it myself. I was also a veterinary technician and learned that the Dr. is the one with knowledge and I am the one who carries out the tasks. That is how I still feel. The Dr. can tell me what is wrong and how to treat it and I carry out that treatment.

So what is the deal, are you guys just sick of me or what? If you are just say so and I will leave and get out of your hair. Like I said twice already, I am sorry that I vented and said I didn't want to pay the first vet. I was just angry. The guy is not charging me at all anyway and I am gladly paying the second vet that came out and really took care of my horse.

I know that you have my horse best interest at heart but I do to. Until you are standing right next to me you can't possibly know what is really going on and what was really going on is that I was making the best of a bad situation. If my horse was at home this never would have happened so I was a little taken by surprise. I am allowed to be surprised and then deal with it. My horse really is in no danger of going without veterinary care. I am obsessive about that kind of thing. I even call the vet when there is nothing wrong with my horse, just for peace of mind that a little swelling is nothing. I am the one who noticed my horse rebowed his tendon when he was not in the lease bit lame and 2 different vets said he was fine until I insisted on an ultrasound which showed a tiny bit of damage (how many people can know that something is wrong with there horse that only an ultrasound can show?) That is why I posted on this board asking questions and ended up having two vets look at my horse. Please stop making me feel bad about that. My horse is in no danger from having me as his owner.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[This message was edited by Chanda on Mar. 08, 2002 at 10:44 AM.]

[Sandbarhorse]

I have a quick comment that I think is important (but of course, you be the judge)

Bat girl said:
"but soaking and wrapping certainly wouldn't have done any harm even if the vet said it was not neccesary".

I had an interesting experience about 2 years ago that may show this isn't true. My horse caught his front foot just above the coronary bad getting up from a good roll. He had done this before in the 16 years I had him (though I had never seen how before) so I figured "no big deal", I'll soak, put some anibiotic salve on it and WRAP it (thought that since I had caught it before it got filthy I was in good shape). After a few days went by and it didn't look as good as I thought it should (horse still limping, too) I called my vet who said that "I know you know what your're doing, and I hate to tell you this, but wrapping it when it's this warm out (early fall) has actually caused it to get infected". He put the horse on antibiotics and said soak, but leave open with salve and coat with heavy fly spray.

I think harder about wrapping these days (and have made quite a few silly calls to the vet since). I don't know that I can say what Chanda did was wrong, given the vet's advice and that she did call her own vet right away.

[Quinn]

In my inexpert, overly humble opinion, Chanda did what most people in this situation would have done.

She came here to ask for advice. To the best of my knowledge, she did all that she was advised to do. Like most of use here, she does call her Vet when it is obviously an ASAP situation.

Cut her some slack. I would hesitate myself to ask for advice if I thought I was going to be treated like this. I don't offer advice if I feel I have no knowledge of the subject. In the past, I felt blessed to be able to ask for it here. Having said that, I would seriously think again after reading this thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[jreventer]

Just a curiosity questions but if Chase is staying at a lay up facility should they not keep adequate vet supplies on hand such as diapers and ichtamol?

"There are times when you can trust a horse, time when you can't, and times when you have to."

www.boo.riana.com (http://www.boo.riana.com)

[Chanda]

They do have supplies (not icthamol, just furacin which doesn't draw out infection) but they also follow what their vets say and their vet was the first vet that came out. When he said to not do anything and watch it, that is what the barn manager wanted to do. She also said that all they normally do is watch that kind of thing anyway. I can not MAKE them wrap it or give me supplies. I personally thought that the swollen leg was the kind of thing that they watch FOR but that is just me.

I was trying to take care of my horse but not disrespect the professionals (vet and lay-up facility barn manager) who really should know more than me. I have never been in that kind of situation before. Usually when I call the vet they come out and DO SOMETHING. I had never dealt with a vet that didn't do anything before. Like I said I was surprised and didn't know what to do other than call my regular vet.

I did what I did and things are ok. I will NEVER use that first vet again, I know he is not the vet for me and my horse. I much prefer the 'do something now vet' to the 'wait and see vet' and now I am aware of which vet to use and which vet not to use. I had never used the first vet before and didn't know he was that way. Lesson learned.

Now please, I did the best that I could, I don't need you guys to 'teach me a lesson' by being harsh. I am a sensitive person and I have been in a difficult position in my life in the last couple months with stress and what results from stress. This board is where I come to help relieve my stress not add to it. My horse is not suffering in any way and is quite healthy. His foot is healing well and my vets are consulted during any questionable time. He is at a nice facility(except for the loose pieces of wire) with plenty of knowledgable people and I am there often to take care of him. I love him and I will never let anything bad happen to him.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[HelloAgain]

Jeez, everyone lay off!

Chanda as we all know is a caring horse owner who puts Chase's welfare first. I don't think she did anything life threatening, or for that matter, any different from what the majority of horse owners would do.

I don't think there is a single person out there who has not questioned their instincts when faced with a professional opinion that is different than what they would do (and, I'm sure out there there is a thread called "I hate people who second-guess their vet"). It has happened to me in my OWN health care.

Those of you who possess super-human resolve and an instinct for diagnosis that excedes that of professional veterinarians, I applaud you.

Everyone else, lay off Chanda!

[Triple Crown]

Chanda, don't worry about what has been said. Anyone that has read any of your posts (now or in the past) knows that you are a very caring horse owner that wants the best for your horse. It is very clear that your situation is not ideal but you seem to be doing the absolute best that you can.

I don't know what happened, but people seem to be really judgmental all of a sudden. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Just remember that this board can be a great resource...but it is really made up of random people that you don't know. Don't take anything too personally. You called the vet and only you were there to deal with the situation. You can get general advice, but nobody but you is actually there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Triple Crown]

HelloAgain beat me to it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Seven]

Interestingly enough my vet (was just out on Wednesday morning to check on an abscessed hoof) RECOMMENDED "poulticing" (her word not mine) the abscess with furacin and not ichthamol. We discussed it for a few minutes and she thought furacin was better. I've always used ichthamol, hoof packing, or that anti-whatever poultice that I can never spell the name. I decided to follow her advice, even though I'm not 100% convinced that furacin was a better choice. We'll have to see.

FWIW, Chanda, you can get ichthamol at some grocery stores and most Walmart/K-Mart type stores... it's a human medicine too.

Also, I don't think anyone is 'making you feel bad' or trying to teach you a lesson by being harsh. First, I think that some people are posting suggestions and questions to you to help you think through the process so that it might turn out differently next time. What if the 'bad' vet is the only one available next time? Won't it be better if you've already chosen a course of action based on this discussion, if he's your only choice?

Second, I think they post these suggestions and queries to increase the pool of knowledge available on the board (I know I do). So not everything or everyone is coming down on Chanda...it's more like "okay, what can you do differently next time and what can we all learn from this?" Whenever someone posts about any situation it provides us the ability to discuss it and perhaps explore every alternative. Without those types of queries, we can't continue to learn and your post about Chase's foot just gives us one of those opportunities.

Third, No one can MAKE you feel bad...only you can choose to feel bad if you want to. If you don't like what they are saying, you can also choose to ignore it...but you don't have to let it get to you.

Best of luck with Chase and I hope that he gets to come home soon!

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Chanda]

Well, luckily this valley has more horses than humans and because of this there are many vets availiable in this area. My regular vets practice alone has 4 great vets. I doubt that I will even have to be forced to use that first vet.

I will definitely take the advice given on this board (which is why I post on here) and get a better first aid kit for home and travel. Even if I had had one with me that day I am still not sure I would have gone against a professionals opinion without being able to consult another professional, which is exactly what I did when I got home.

I don't know why I feel like I have to defend what I did or did not do on this board or why I feel like I must try and make everyone understand. Maybe because this board is more to me that it may be to most of you. As most of you know I live on a farm where I have little or no contact with anyone other than my non-horsey husband. I really have no real friends because I am so isolated. I really think of you guys as my friends even though I don't actually know you all personally. Most people will feel hurt when their friends are a bit hard on them and will try and defend themselves and try and make their friend understand their situation so that their friends will go on liking them. This may sound lame and sad but that is just how my situation is and I am ok with it.

I just feel like a lot of the times when I ask questions about my horse I get people really being hard on me and I am not sure why. The questions that I ask start out being simple non-specific questions and end up being more personal and negative with me trying desperately to explain and make people understand me and failing to do that. I usually feel so possitive at first and in the end I feel like everyone is being pretty negative and it is affecting me. I am sure it must be something that I am doing or saying or that I am not able to explain things properly but I just wish I could learn how to stop this from happening. I don't want to feel bad anymore and I want you all to understand me because you are an important part of my life and I could really use the advice and help I get from all of you.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[MeanderCreek]

I for one don't think anyone was jumping on Chanda unnecessarily. It is not unfair for anybody to reccomend that another pay their horses veterinary expenses.

These posts have been very confusing to me, and I'm sure to others.

1. horse has puncture wound and is going to be treated by veterinarian

2. Chanda wants stable to pay for horses injury - because it was their fault

3. horse is treated by veterinarian - veterinarian reccomends a course of action that Chanda disagrees with, as do a number of members of an internet community

4. Chanda speaks with another veterinarian

5. Chanda PUBLICLY DECLARES that she is not paying the first veterinarian - "because he didn't really do anything at all" and BLAMES this first veterinarian for anything that might result from this injury

6. Chanda says the first veterinarian is not going to charge her for his evaluation and diagnosis (I wish I had a vet that didn't charge for his services!!!)

7. second veterinarian comes out and administers an annual vaccination and determines that the horse will be fine

what's the problem? I'd bet 100/1 that if the first vet's course of action had been followed this whole "ordeal" would have had the same result. Instead Chanda is on the computer having an attack over how incompetent the first vet was. Even if that is the case, the horses well being is ultimately the owners responsibility.

If my vet treats a horse and I disagree, I do one of two things - get a second opinion, or determine my own course of action. I do not sit around complaining and whining and BLAMING the barn, the vet, the grocery store or anything else. Furthermore, I DEFINITELY DO NOT publicly declare that I a not paying for services rendered. That's just asking for the torch.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:

I just wish I could learn how to stop this from happening. I don't want to feel bad anymore and I want you all to understand me because you are an important part of my life and I could really use the advice and help I get from all of you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is VERY simple - STOP BLAMING EVERYTHING ON SOMEONE ELSE and STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

I really think that's 99% of the reason many of us get frustrated.

Life is hard, our horses are on a suicide mission, we're all broke, and we all work too hard. Its not just you - that's reality - get used to it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[lilblackhorse]

bravo Meander....

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Quinn]

Enough! Let it go. For crying out loud, if lynching was permitted, it would be prevelent on this bb.

From the posts I have read written by Chanda, she is a very nice, knowledgeable HUMAN BEING!

I happily share what I know with hopes that someone/anyone benefits. At no time (except one time which need not be mentioned) have I personally attacked anyone. I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT! Nobody does.

The day we stop listening and taking advice is the day we become a loser. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Seven]

I understand what you mean, Chanda...even though I'm technically not isolated by location, the barns I've been at in recent years are either (a) my own; (b) full of beginners and 'weekend' horse owners who could be downright scary; or (c) full of kids. Granted, the latest barn is a 'Pony Club' barn, so at least we share the same standard of care, but I ride at 9 or 10 at night...so there's never anyone there to ask anyway. In a lot of ways, this is my 'barn' too...and I value the members and the advice dispensed as you do.

If it helps, I *do* think you take excellent care of Chase. I think he is a very lucky horse to have you. I also like you and enjoy your posts, as I'm certain many others do. If I might make a suggestion, sometimes it might help not to respond immediately...take a deep breath, re-read what's being written, and try not to interpret it as an accusation that your skills are substandard. I know some posts *are* accusations, but you can also work on ignoring those. It's easier to ignore them if you can KNOW that you are doing the best you can at any given moment (and you CAN know that by having confidence in yourself and your skills). Remind yourself that self-doubt is okay as long as it makes you question, learn, listen, and learn. It's not helpful if it just makes you sick and worried. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I know this is rambling, and it might not work, but it might help. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Seven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:
Life is hard, our horses are on a suicide mission, we're all broke, and we all work too hard. Its not just you - that's reality - get used to it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL!!!! I might just have to post this in my tack trunk!!

Meander's daily reminder service.....

(I particularly like "....our horses are on a suicide mission...." LOLOLOLOL!!)

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[lilblackhorse]

Yes Serendipity...

I look at it like this: He is either just getting over an injury, Has an injury, or is looking for a way to get injured again!

LOLOL-it IS life. That's why God made horse insurance /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

[Bumpkin]

Chanda I thought you insured Chase when you went to France?
I recall a thread about it awhile back.
That should cover this injury. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Have You Hugged Your Trainer Today?"

[MeanderCreek]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lilblackhorse:

LOLOL-it IS life. That's why God made horse insurance /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"/QUOTE]

and prozac!!!!

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[Chanda]

First of all, #2 I meant, wouldn't be nice if the stable payed for this because they are the ones that left a piece of wire in his paddock. I obviously know that they are not officially responsible but it sure is frustrating.

#5, Like I said, I was frustrated and venting. I didn't like the fact that I had hired this man to come out and help my horse and he refused to do anything at all. That is not something I want to pay for. I don't want to pay someone to do something and have them do nothing. The reason he didn't do anything was because he already knew that he was not going to charge me (I didn't know this) and therefore wasn't going to make an effort. If he would have told me that he was doing this for free and didn't really care in the beginning I would have not even had him look and would have called my own vet. So the guy was not/ is not charging me because he didn't do anything. I already appologized THREE times for being upset about this.

Well, if the first vets course of action (no action) was followed, everyone on this board would have had my head on a platter. That is not why I called my regular vet or did the wrapping but am I not right here? Everyone seems so upset that I was not wrapping and now you are saying that I should have just done nothing?

Yeah, why do you think I was having an attack? I was worried. I thought that wrapping was the right thing to do and so did everyobody on this board but the vet didn't want to do anything. I think I have a right to be concerned and try and get ahold of my regular vet. I didn't want to do the wrong thing and listening to the first vet seemed like the wrong thing to me.

I didn't just sit here whining on the computer. I called my regular vet and took a course of action. How would you even know if I was just sitting here not doing anything? Do you have some secret camera that follows me around? I certainly am not blaming anyone (other than the darn piece of wire). And, like I have said the first vet did not perform any services and is not charging me. I have already appologised what, four times now for saying what I said.

I really don't feel like I am blaming anyone or making excuses. I am just trying to EXPLAIN what was going on and getting a little frustrated at the same time. I am not making things seem like they are SO hard or anything. Like I said I have a special savings set up for vet emergencies so I am not complaining about having to spend money. I just originally thought that the vet that did nothing was going to charge me when all along he knew he was not and, not only didn't tell me that, but didn't do anything.

I don't understand why I am not allowed to try and explain my situation in order to get more accurate help. Would you rather that I just sit here and say 'mmh' when you are giving me advice that doesn't make sense in my situation and wait around until someone hits the nail on the head? That might take a while. I would rather try and help people understand so I can get the help I need.

I guess I was wrong though. Apparently I am a bad horse owner and now I am a terrible person for being worried about my horse, having a mild freak out and not knowing what to do and trying to get help. Great. I feel much better now.

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[Chanda]

I don't understand the insurance question. Yes Chase is insured but he has a $250 deductable. I am not even getting charged 50 bucks for this whole thing. What does that have to do with the first vet not wanting to do anything?

Bowed tendon: 44 days down, minimum 16 days to go.

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:

I guess I was wrong though. Apparently I am a bad horse owner and now I am a terrible person for being worried about my horse, having a mild freak out and not knowing what to do and trying to get help. Great. I feel much better now.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SHEESH! I've been watching this stupid fire grow from an ember to almost out of control. You all need to chill out.

Chanda, I'm VERY GLAD your horse is okay. I think you are a very responsible and caring horse owner, as indicated by the level of concern you have demonstrated here.

The rest of you (you know who you are, by the way) need to go away and let her recuperate.

Man, I know where I'm NOT going when I need a shoulder to cry on...

[Lucassb]

The rather frequent posts about Chase have a consistently self righteous quality about them. They usually start with some sort of plea for help or information, followed by a detailed, blow by blow saga of how this person wronged the poster or her horse, how put upon she is, how she has made different decisions and finally, how upset she is that people have disagreed with her. It tends to get very dramatic, and it gets (my personal opinion only...)rather old.

For the record, I don't think Chanda is an uncaring or negligent horse owner. If anything, I think she goes overboard making sure her horse is well taken care of.

It just seems like the sky is falling a lot.

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

[Louise]

I think that it is probably time that we dropped this subject. Whether you think one thing, or another, nothing is going to change.

We are, and I purposely include myself in this, getting pretty personal here, and it needs to stop. We are going beyond helping, to hurting. If it continues in this vein, I will close this thread.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

[KellyS]

Chanda, I know how you feel about Chase.

Last fall, my little mare came up mysteriously lame after an event. Progressed from slight stiffness to outright head bob, full body gimping on front leg. Well, the owner and the vet both took a very "wait and see" approach to the whole situation.

Without going into details, I was basically beside myself. I think I was crying almost every night. I just wanted to do anything to help her recover, and doing "nothing" just felt so wrong. We eventually came to a course of action in the middle of the road, and the mare is now perfectly sound. We never could come to a complete diagnosis on the lameness.

Anyway, I was so completely frustrated because I really didn't have a lot of control over the situation and my reaction to the "wait and see" was similar to yours. Was I right or wrong, were they right or wrong? Well, it's kind of like taking two roads to get to the same destination.

So to get to the point, I was probably highly over emotional about the whole situation because I was so worried. I totally understand your frustration and worry, and I understand that your posts were probably made in the heat of the "moments". Sounds like everything is on the up and up now. Good luck and don't take anything too personally from here. I certainly don't!

[Triple Crown]

This board is often used for venting. I can understand Chanda being frustrated at the barn and at the vet and wishing she didn't have to pay. But I doubt she was really going to stand there and refuse to pay!! I just thought she was getting some frustration out. No biggie. It seems to me that if you don't like her problems and don't want to help her, then don't!

When you're concerned and upset, isn't it human nature to vent a little, especially to people you consider friends? I have to admit that I've dealt with a year-long problem that happened when the "right" people weren't around. The accident was unfortunate and shouldn't have happened, and the vet that was called (not mine) did not do all that great a job with the matter. But I wasn't there and didn't get the emergency message until too late...@#$% happens, and everybody makes mistakes (and nobody has a crystal ball!). Of course I paid and never blamed anyone...but sure I grumble from time to time to myself.

On a side note, I'd like to clarify that yes, my horses ARE indeed on a suicide mission. So there. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JB]

Chanda, you are more than welcome to my board if this is just too hurtful to you /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Everybody second guesses themselves after the fact at some point or another. Everybody has been guilty of second guessing someone else at one time or another. Nobody does exactly the right thing all the time. Think of why Chase is where he is now - he's there getting the rest and attention he needs because CHANDA made the decision to have someone look at his leg which was feeling sort of funky. Seems to be a reasonable owner here!

[findeight]

Chanda I didn't say anything about the injury or your reaction. I wasn't there and did not see it.
I just said please pay the first vet. Even if you disagreed. Don't read anything else into that statement.
I have no doubts that you are trying to do the best for your horse.

"I am drunk..and you're crazy. Tomorrow I'll be sober, you'll be crazy for the rest of your life". W.C. Fields in "It's a Gift"

[elizabeth]

Chanda:
(1) How is Chase? Fully recovered?
(2) Did he ever go lame? (Meaning, has he continued not to take a bad step on the hoof that the wire went into?)

Hopefully things are all better!

[Chanda]

Chase is doing great. I followed my regular vets recommendation and did all the soaking and wrapping. The wrap came off of Sat. afternoon and it is looking good and drying out nicely.

Chase has continued to be completely sound even though he had a bowed tendon and a wire in the hoof with an abcess. I think that is actually a bad thing though. I think he needs to show me when he is not feeling well a little better than he is. I wish he would just say OUCH for once!

He is actually seeing and equine dentist today. When I was out removing the wrap on Sat. a woman who works for a dentist wandered out to visit with me and see my horse. She noticed that he had a half chew ball of food in his mouth and said that he might need his teeth done. I told her that I have my vet look at his teeth every time she sees my horse and she said he was fine but that he had not had his teeth done at all in the year and a half I have owned him. She said that it might be a good idea for the dentist to look at him. She just happened to have an opening for Chase today so I thought I would have him looked at. It certainly can't hurt right? The dentist is a Certified Advanced Equine Dentist (CA.EQ.D.)

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go.

[cbv]

and that things turned out ok.

It is amazing the different thresholds to pain you observe among different horses...some so stoic like Chase....some so sensitive.

Good luck and hope he recovers fully and soon.

[Pookah]

I'm not even going to touch the whole vet issue because I tend to go into rampages pretty quickly, but I just have to sympathize about the pain threshold thing. I have 2 horses and a pony-the pony and one of the horses could be dying before you would know anything was wrong. The pony foundered for 3 months before he even looked off, and the horse would try to do upper level dressage stuff on 3 legs if you asked him to. However, the other horse, if you look at him cross-eyed, thinks that he is dying and in pain, and needs to be fully wrapped and put in a stall with lots of drugs for the pain. It's amazing-I have to very consciously think of who I'm dealing with before treating them for anything-drives me crazy!

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

[Chef Jade]

1. When I die, I want to come back as one of Chanda's horses!

2. It could be worse, Chanda... Just as he got over his bowed tendon, he THEN could have stepped on the wire! At least you are getting double lay-up for the time of one! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[onthebit]

looking at things!

[Janet]

Pain threshold and pain tolerance are different.

Music has a very high pain threshold. But onse it crosses that threshold, she has NO tolerance whatever, and turns into a total wimp.

[shelly]

I think what I have learned from this thread is that we, as the usual caregivers of our horses, need to be able to question the vet's opinions and recommendations.

I keep my horses at my place and I know my horses. A few years back one of my geldings was literally covered in hives that burst and oozed and he was swollen and uncomfortable. My preferred vet assumed it was an allergic reaction and had given him a shot of Azium which reduced the swelling. Then all of the allergy testing began... One day during this waiting period, he started to swell up again to the point that I had to go out to him every 20 minutes to loosen his flymask. I went to the vet's (a block away) to try and get another shot of Azium. My regular vet wasn't working that day so I spoke to the newer vet. I explained the whole situation and he figured that the horse would be fine without any Azium. I knew my horse was not fine and I knew that I explained the situation well. I calmly looked straight at him and told him that his answer wouldn't do and to get my vet on the phone now. He did so, hung up and I received the Azium, along with Azium powder to use when necessary. My horse did well but did require Azium off and on for a few months and after a year of allergy shots is now fine /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I did not harm the relationship that I have with the vets (as I remained quiet, calm, and polite the whole time) I just knew that his decision was made too quickly and I was not comfortable with it.

[daytimedrama]

Chanda- I am so glad to here Chase is going to be okay. I hope this doesn't set back his return to work, what's left? just a few weeks?

I can totally understand how you feel, there are some vets who i know that seem like they are on crack and it goes against everything that you know as a horse owner to listen to them.

I don't know who the original vet you were talking about is but I think I know who your normal vet works for and he is awesome, if it's the one I thinking of. I actually had him look at George's x-rays as the vet check before I bought George.

These type of experiences are hard because you know how your horse should be treated and doing nothing is the hardest thing. Unfortuantly you had to try and listen to someone you didn't trust, no one knows how it would have turned out if you didn't get a second opinion.

Chase is very lucky to have you, but just don't give your self a heart attack! He is fine , you are fine, everything is fine now!!! Breath and smile!!! He'll be back to you soon, where you can see him more often and make sure his every need is met!!!!

~Christina~
"I don't patronize bunny rabbits!" -Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[Chanda]

Thanks guys. Chase is doing extra fine now after his new dentist went to work. He definitely needed his teeth done even though my regular vet didn't see any problems. The dentist let me stick my hand WAY into his mouth and feel the edges of his back teeth. They definitely had sharp points on them. Poor guy! I am so pleased with my whole dentist experience and I am sure Chase is too. I am sure he feels so much better, he already has a kinder look in his eyes. He will now be on the schedual every year for this woman to take care of him (she checks every 6 months). It wasn't even that expensive at all either. I feel so much better knowing that there is just one more thing getting us back on the road to recovery!

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go.

[daytimedrama]

omg there is this new electric teeth file, and i had to hold my horse while he had this done, an di had to stick my arm into my horse's jacked open mouth! it was really scary but kind of neat!

~Christina~
"I don't patronize bunny rabbits!" -Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[Royal Blue]

When Chase is all better & ridable again you'll have to let us know if you can tell the difference with the dental work /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. We have a dentist come do our horses the is great, he is one of the top in the country & has all these very cool tools he makes (for himself & other dentists). He mostly comes to do the horses that need major work & you can't believe how much better they all go after. My old sorta odd (crazy) TB was like a new horse after. We have had others that went from semi hard rides to normal horses.

[Peggy]

I, too, like Chef's comment. But my horse never seems to have such good timing--he generally waits until he's just back in work before self-destructing again.

Should be interesting to see if the dental work makes Chase easier to ride once you start him back. Maybe some of the resistance you noticed was teeth problems.

[Robby Johnson]

It's too bad you're not on Chase during this time. I suspect icky teeth might've been leading to some of his under-tack discomfort. Do you remember when you'd posted about that and I asked if you'd had his teeth checked, etc., and you said yes (because, of course, you did!)? It just goes to show that our vets aren't omniscient.

Physical discomfort in some way/shape/form is ALWAYS the root of a horse going less than desirably. It could be the "rider abscess" on his back, but usually it's something related to tack and tack fit.

Best luck with his recovery. I sure love seeing your pictures of him (and of you and your dogs).

Robby

p.s. My little cousin is coming to SB for spring break to tour The Cate School. Do you know anything about it?

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:
The dentist let me stick my hand WAY into his mouth and feel the edges of his back teeth.

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you're a braver person than I am! Hopefully his mouth was braced open? I have watched these dentists at work and can't believe they don't get chomped!

Glad things are going better. Feel free to vent anytime!

[Chanda]

I can tell already that some of his problems were related to his teeth. The dentist was so amazing, she knew right away that he was stiff to the left because that side of his teeth were worse.

The dentist was actually a Holistic Dentist and did everything by hand (no machine). She took almost 2 hours and did everything very slowly giving Chase a chance to rest by going back and forth between the molars, the canines and his front teeth. She even used some peppermint 'oil stuff' in his mouth to make him feel fresh at the end of the whole thing. He loved it!

The look in Chases eyes at the end definitely showed me that he had been in some pain before and feels much better now. It was obvious. And, yes, I feel terrible for trusting my vet again although I am sure it was not her fault. I also looked way up into his mouth everytime he yawned and was not able to see that there was anything wrong. The points on the sides of his molars were hidden by the tounge and cheek. Also the only area that was not level with the rest of the molars was the very very back, very hard to see and impossible to feel. She said it was like last time they used a machine that couldn't reach all the way back there or it bumped into the last molar and stopped, not realizing that that last tooth was there.

I had heard of equine dentists but had no idea how to find one or even if my horse needed one. If I had not been out at the barn on Sunday (when they are normally closed) taking off Chases hoof bandage I never would have met this dentist. It was kind of freaky. I kept telling her through the whole process how terrible I felt that no one knew his mouth was painful and she told me that it was OK and that we were meant to meet at this time. That now I can keep moving forward with Chase a little bit at a time as I am chipping away and what was making him so difficult.

Unfortunately I think I found a couple more problems with him that I need to work on before he will be ready to come back. When I described some of his 'stallion like' behaviour to the dentist she became really concerned. She said that she was not sure what could be done about it but that it was NOT normal for a gelding to act like that. I decided that when Chase goes for his ulrtasound that I will have a blood test done to determine if he really has any unwanted hormones running through his veins.

Also, she noticed that his sacrum area was very sensitive to the touch. You can rub it and he is fine but if you just lay your hand over the area he raises his head and looks very uncomfortable with his ears back. This will be something that I will have to figure out what to do about. She suggested massage, acupuncture and essential herbs or oils (I don't quite understand that last one yet). Luckily my friend just got certified for massage therapy about a year ago and Chases old owner is an acupuncturist. I was thinking a chiropracter might be helpful too.

I love the fact that we are chipping away at Chases pain, one thing at a time. I know that most of this pain was there before I even bought him. He is just so stoic that he didn't waive a big flag to tell me. Pretty soon he will be feeling great and just might become bonded to me, that is as much as I can hope for.

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go.

[Royal Blue]

Have they ever checked to see if he is a ridgling (sp). My old TB was very studly, he would go afer other horses & could not be turned out next to any mare in heat unless I put vics in his nose. Vet checked to see if he had a retained testicle but it ended up that he was proud cut & still full of hormones. He was even worse than the 2 breeding stallions in the barn.

[Chanda]

Most people think he must be proud cut. I have spoken to my vet about it and she said we could do a blood test but for some reason we never did it. I think we must have just forgotten about it. With all the other stuff going on with him I sort of forgot about his studyness since I haven't been riding him.

I would assume that there is some way to do surgery to remove whatever was left in there but is there anything else less invasive?

Bowed tendon: 48 days down, minimum 12 days to go.

[Royal Blue]

When one of our breeding stallions first came he was out of control. Large race horse who had been bred live coverage 8 times. His owner a vet/ equine pharmacutical company owner put him on some type of hormone to counter balance. Not sure what it was but he was alot more manageable (stopped trying to mount people who walked in his stall). He even lets me go in his stall & groom him up sans restraints & doesn't try to maul me. The best thing to do is talk to your vet.

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:

I would assume that there is some way to do surgery to remove whatever was left in there but is there anything else less invasive?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can put him on regumate. Its pretty common around here to put the studdy geldings on regumate. I even know some people who keep their studs on regumate when they're showing. Its VERY effective /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I even put my teaser on it when he's not "working"

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[levremont]

BUT it is very interesting to me. My wonderful, rather quiet ottb (6yr old) has gone wild. I was hunting him quietly a couple of months ago and now that the mares have started to go into heat he has become a monster. HE rears when you go to turn him out, will attack any gelding in sight if given half a chance ( I think he would actually kill one if loose). On the way to the show the other day I felt the trailer bump, stoped and opened the escape door and he was bitting my big ISH on the cheek and would not let go until I hit him really hard ( we have a 6 horse head to head)so I had to tie him so tight on both sides so he could not move. He will start showing at the A's in a month and I was saying to the barn help that I will have to treat him like a stud ( he is good once in the ring, but I must be careful in the warmup ring if a horse come too close). He is so talented, scopey and brave I would be really happy if Regumate would stop this insanity, the vet comes tomorrow so I will get her to do a blood test and put him on hormones.I'll let you know how it works. I wonder why he was not like this last year, though he has matured a lot.

[daytimedrama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
DTD I had a horse with something called "wave mouth", sort of weird ridges in his teeth.

Anyway my vet was also a dentist and she used that drill thing on him, after a hefty dose of happy drugs!. I swear his whole head was vibrating with it. I thought his brain would come out his nose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i had to hold my horses head so his brains wouldn't shake out!!! There was this halter and it is tied to the roof to hold the horses head up and then a scary looking electric file, but after is was all done all the sharp edges were gone George was much happier. Some of the edges would have been impossible to get withoutt he electric file, I was happy to see them go!!

~Christina~
"I don't patronize bunny rabbits!" -Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[Chanda]

Great, thanks! It is good to know that Regumate might be a solution. That stuff seems to be a pain in the butt to handle but way worth it if it works.

Bowed tendon: 51 days down, minimum 9 days to go.

[AAJumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:
Great, thanks! It is good to know that Regumate might be a solution. That stuff seems to be a pain in the butt to handle but way worth it if it works.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's also really expensive!

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

[JER]

There are some things you could try before Regumate. It's not something you want to get involved with unless you have to. Here's a suggestion:

I have a very studly older QH gelding. He is a problem around other horses (he's a real brawler) and requires some special handling at all times. He gets 1 1/2 oz. of chasteberry (Vitex) twice a day and he's actually manageable. Vitex (an herb), used for PMS in humans, is a natural hormone regulator. It's shown great promise as a Cushing's treatment, makes mares more emotionally stable, and also has the anti-stallion effect on geldings. And no side effects.

Also, if your horse is eating alfalfa, you might try switching to timothy (preferably) or bermuda. Amazing how this can affect a horse's behaviour.

[findeight]

I would wait for the results of the tests before making any decisions. And hormones can only smooth the rough spots not eliminate holes in the training or other soundness issues.

"I am drunk..and you're crazy. Tomorrow I'll be sober, you'll be crazy for the rest of your life". W.C. Fields in "It's a Gift"

[Chanda]

I haven't even done the test yet (going to do it along with his ultrasound in 2 weeks). I wouldn't just put him on regumate for no reason or anything. I am just trying to plan ahead.

I really want to try and get all issues under control before I start riding and training him again. If I make sure that he is in no pain, doesn't have any extra hormones and all major parts are working smoothly then I will know exactly what is a training issue and what is not.

I just found out that I might be able to get some free acupuncture for his back from his old owner. I have been riding some of his girlfriends horses again and he is really happy about that. I am keeping my fingers crossed!

Bowed tendon: 52 days down, minimum 8 days to go.

[MeanderCreek]

About the proudcut issue /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanted to add that if he is in fact a proudcut, the regumate will help, but I seriously think if he were mine I'd go fishing and get everything out that needs to be out. Invasive, or not, he'll be a much happier horse as a "real" gelding if he isn't already. Being a proudcut must be a pretty frustrating life for a horse.

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

[Chanda]

Well, I will let you guys know what the vet finds out. It will be a few weeks though. I am trying to wait as long as I can to do the ultrasound to give him as much time to heal as possible. But I am SO curious to see how much he has healed to 2 months. It was such a mild bow that I am hopeing that is all he needs.

Bowed tendon: 52 days down, minimum 8 days to go.

[AMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
p.s. My little cousin is coming to SB for spring break to tour The Cate School. Do you know anything about it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby,

My brother (and Uncle,sister-in-law, Grandfather and cousin!) went to Cate. They refer to it as the "country club" for its beautiful campus and it has a drop-dead gorgeous view from the mesa. There is a huge "success rate" as far as graduates who go on to four year colleges. I almost went there myself, but there weren't any horses....

CWP

[SpotsNChrome]

and didnt take care of it properly the first time. Why wait for the vet to make every little move on your horse? Furacin is possibly not a good idea, causes heat and does not disinfect, very bad for a puncture wound.

Soak the foot 2 times a day in hot as you can stand it water and epsom salts, dont scrimp on the salts, pour em in there! Until the water cools. Then you need Ichthamol, slap it in the hoof, sole and around the frog, wrap up with a baby diaper (0-4 months size is good) and duct tape the hell out of it and leave him in, no turn out for a few days.
Got TMZ sulphur tabs? get him on that, about 12 tabs 2 times a day for ten days.

Youre looking at a longer recovery now because the first aid applied wasnt very efficient, plus clearly the infection is spreading up the leg (cant swell in a hard cased hoof), so now your vet bill will double. After all this you will be the expert on puncture wounds, sounds like you are really paying your tuition now.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

... that there is no such animal as a proud cut horse. The tissue that is supposed to be "left behind" does not produce male hormones.

If you do a blood test and there are significant levels of testosterone than my guess is that your horse is a cryptorchid and one or both of the testicles is still in the abdominal cavity. The testicles will still produce male hormones but the warmth of the body cavity inhibits sperm production.

However, I have seen many people who were positive that their horse was proud cut or acting studdy take blood tests only to find that there was not a significant blood level of testosterone. In most cases, it is a training issue and behavior modification is the key.

BTW, when I asked (years ago) I was told that use of female hormones (i.e., Regumate) to alter behavior in a male horse is a violation of the USA Eq medication rules. Technically, it is in a mare, too, but you would be hard pressed to prove where the progesterone came from.

Nina (physiology is physiology)

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

[Chanda]

Spotsnchrome, everyone has different ideas about what needs to be done with a puncture. Some vets say to wrap it with furacin, some say to leave it alone and watch it, some say to wrap with icthamol and so on.

I don't think it is fair to say that I didn't take care of it.

The barn manager of the layup facility used furacin to wrap it at first. This is something that they do commonly there.

The vet that came out the next day said to leave it alone because he didn't think it went in that far and didn't think it was a big deal. I personally didn't feel that was the right thing to do so I called my regular vet as soon as I got home.

My regular vet told me to soak it in Epsom salts and wrap it with icthamol and I did.

Another vet came out the next day and said to not bother soaking it but keep it wrapped for two more days.

So in my estimation consulting 3 vets in 3 days and doing a lot of soaking and wrapping does not mean that I did not take care of it.

Yes, I did throw a bit of a fit about the vet that did not want to do anything and I apologized for that many times already. I was just worried about my horse. I was not used to dealing with that vet and did not know how to handle the situation. Sorry, I am not perfect.

My horse is perfectly fine and happy. Everything turned out just fine. I now know that I will not be using that one vet and I will always use my regular vets practice which has 4 wonderful vets to choose from.

Thank you for your concern. I love the wonderful help that everyone offered me in my time on need. It definitely lead me in the right direction.

NinaL, that is interesting! I am curious to see whether there really are hormones in his system. I pray that he does not have a retained testicle, that sounds like a nightmare. Since his ultrasound will not be for another month I am going to wait until then to do the blood test. His behaviour is not really a problem in the situation that he is in now. He basically just sits in his paddock all day and plays kissy-face with his friends. No one really handles him much so he should be fine until next month. They are also quite used to dealing with difficult animals there. Right now they have this little crooked legged Arab stallion that stands straight up on his hind legs and tries to clobber you with is front legs. Luckily Chase doesn't do anything like that!

If it is all behavioural then I will have to deal with it. There is a girl at the farm where he is at that is great with difficult horses. She really likes Chase and wants to help me work with him. She will teach me how to be the leader and help me teach Chase that he must respect me. I am very excited to have met such a wonderful and giving person. She also wants to ride him when he is all healed and told her she is more than welcome to.

Hopefully everything will turn out OK.

Bowed tendon: 62 days down, minimum 28 days to go.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:

NinaL, that is interesting! I am curious to see whether there really are hormones in his system. I pray that he does not have a retained testicle, that sounds like a nightmare. Since his ultrasound will not be for another month I am going to wait until then to do the blood test. His behaviour is not really a problem in the situation that he is in now. He basically just sits in his paddock all day and plays kissy-face with his friends. No one really handles him much so he should be fine until next month. They are also quite used to dealing with difficult animals there. Right now they have this little crooked legged Arab stallion that stands straight up on his hind legs and tries to clobber you with is front legs. Luckily Chase doesn't do anything like that!

If it is all behavioural then I will have to deal with it. There is a girl at the farm where he is at that is great with difficult horses. She really likes Chase and wants to help me work with him. She will teach me how to be the leader and help me teach Chase that he must respect me. I am very excited to have met such a wonderful and giving person. She also wants to ride him when he is all healed and told her she is more than welcome to.

Hopefully everything will turn out OK.

Bowed tendon: 62 days down, minimum 28 days to go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One good thing about an injury is it gives you plenty of time to think about the other things you want to do with your horse!

"Studdy" behaviour is not uncommon in geldings especially if they were gelded late or did not learn the niceties of horse-y social behavior. Also, more aggressive geldings tend to act more studdy than submissive ones.

Interesting story about the Arab stallion - I had a friend who had one that acted just like that. Gelding him did the trick. You have to wonder why something with crooked legs and a bad temperament is still a stallion /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Good luck with Chase and keep us posted!

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

[Flash44]

I got my horse and gelded him as he was turning 5. It took YEARS for MOST of the studdish behavior to disappear. We tested him and his testosterone level was well within normal even though he was still a little studdish and ignorant in the spring and around mares. He is 12 now, and this is probably the easiest spring yet. knock on wood.

I'll tell you once more before I get off the floor don't bring me down...

[Chanda]

NinaL, the Arab stallion is owned by a celebrity (I am sure that says it all right there). I am not sure who but I think he is a pet more than anything. Everyone at the layup facitlity wishes he would be gelded but the owner doesn't want to. As far as I know he/she is not breeding him at all. I am not sure what is up with his crooked legs but they tell me is a a really nice Arab other than that. He also randomly attacks his feeder. It is pretty funny but kind of sad. He has a lot of pent up energy, thats for sure.

Bowed tendon: 62 days down, minimum 28 days to go.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chanda:
NinaL, the Arab stallion is owned by a celebrity (I am sure that says it all right there). I am not sure who but I think he is a pet more than anything. Everyone at the layup facitlity wishes he would be gelded but the owner doesn't want to. As far as I know he/she is not breeding him at all. I am not sure what is up with his crooked legs but they tell me is a a really nice Arab other than that. He also randomly attacks his feeder. It is pretty funny but kind of sad. He has a lot of pent up energy, thats for sure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that says it all.

Hope he doesn't hurt anybody before Mr/Ms Celebrity's ego allows the family jewels to go bye-bye.

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

[hoppy]

It is the epididymis that is attached to the testicle that causes the horse to be proud cut.When the horse is gelded, the epididymis breaks from the testicle and pops back inside. Of course, it all depends on the vet doing the surgery. My grandfather( who passed away last fall) did all the castrations at our place, as well as anyone who needed a horse castrated. He was an old cowboy who worked magic with horses.He did our castrations until he was 80 years old, then my sister and I would not let him, in case he got hurt. We called and got the vet to castrate a horse for us. Gramps watched the procedure and declared that the vet had just proud cut him. True enough, Smokey is extremely studdy and must not be kept with other geldings. And of course my Gramps never let us forget the end result,since we would'nt let him castrate Smokey.In fact , we had to sell Smokey when we bought a Connemara stallion. He jumped the fence one time and went to the neighbors and beat the crap out of their own stud. sold him to an old cowboy who can handle the horse. great to ride but not around other male horses.Asked a vet the cost to go into surgery and it was very expensive and not a sure result.Smoky is doing great and I have a stallion I don't have to worry that another will injure.and the neighbor was thankfully the horse was gone.I have found another vet who does great work with the horses and knows the proper procedure to castrate.She was even given approval by my Gramps.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

You are right that when the epididymis is left the horse is considered proud cut but the epididymis does not produce male hormones. It is merely a storage area for sperm. The testicles produce male hormones and my guess is that it would be a fairly incompetent vet indeed who would manage to only remove part of a testicle.

Here is a link that I found which gives a pretty nice explanation of why some geldings act studdy.
Proud cut geldings (http://www.paper-horse.com/askthevet/proudcut.htm)

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

[NancyL]

My horse was gelded as a 10 year old.

He had decided that spring to finally act like a real stallion. As an amatuer owner I decided I could have the best of both worlds -- science is a great thing.

He quickly returned to his nice quiet self (his behaviour improved within days), even though he spent a month being "collected" before being gelded. One day he will babysit his own kids.

I was concerned he might come out proud cut, but the surgeon was very careful to get everything -- knowing I wanted my quiet horse back.