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Miss S
Feb. 2, 2001, 10:25 AM
Well I finally decided to post after being a long-time lurker because there is this situation that is bothering me...

At this lesson/show barn that I know there are a number of people teaching lessons that show in the Amateur divisions. Some of them just came out of the junior ranks and had started as camp counselors, but now are teaching a few group and private lessons as adults and showing in the Amateur hunters. One of them is actually a relative of the owners... There is also one lady that teaches all day Saturdays, privates during the week, and coaches at shows. She does the Amateur hunters, jumpers, and equitation. And there is another girl that comes in and subs for other instructors who is very successful on the Amateur jumper circuit.

Of course they say that none of them are paid, but how many people really teach all those lessons for nothing??? And I know for a fact that checks are being issued to some of them on a regular basis, although I'm sure the management would say it was for "barn work." I don't think the person that teaches and coaches the most actually gets a check, but she has 2 horses there and is rumored to be getting free board on at least one of them, but that horse also gets used in lessons so I'm sure they'll say that's the reason. I do know that she was paid to school a student's horse at a show last year, but that was kept very hush-hush.

So this matter falls into that very gray area of proving that someone is not an Amateur. I finally gave up my Amateur status to teach a few lessons a week so I could afford to show my horse. I felt it was the right thing to do because that's what the AHSA says. Now this woman is competing against and occasionally beating my students in the Amateurs, although she really shouldn't be there at all! And coaching at the same shows!

What should I do? Most of the girls at that barn are really nice and probably have never even read the AHSA rules on Amateur status because they are going by what the barn management has told them is okay. I'm sure the one lady is well aware of the rules, but she and the owners are covering it up so she can do the M&S and medals. I really don't want to be a snitch, but this is just not fair to all the other "real" amateurs out there. Any suggestions? I'm sure if I talked to them privately I would be made out to be the bad guy, spoiling it for all these people that just needed a few extra dollars to show. I know that to file a formal protest with the AHSA it is expensive and you have to have proof. That would be hard since the barn is covering for all these people, and it comes down to one persons word against anothers. Is there any way to censor the barn? I heard that they actually had someone set down a few years back for showing in the Amateurs while teaching there...

Miss S
Feb. 2, 2001, 10:25 AM
Well I finally decided to post after being a long-time lurker because there is this situation that is bothering me...

At this lesson/show barn that I know there are a number of people teaching lessons that show in the Amateur divisions. Some of them just came out of the junior ranks and had started as camp counselors, but now are teaching a few group and private lessons as adults and showing in the Amateur hunters. One of them is actually a relative of the owners... There is also one lady that teaches all day Saturdays, privates during the week, and coaches at shows. She does the Amateur hunters, jumpers, and equitation. And there is another girl that comes in and subs for other instructors who is very successful on the Amateur jumper circuit.

Of course they say that none of them are paid, but how many people really teach all those lessons for nothing??? And I know for a fact that checks are being issued to some of them on a regular basis, although I'm sure the management would say it was for "barn work." I don't think the person that teaches and coaches the most actually gets a check, but she has 2 horses there and is rumored to be getting free board on at least one of them, but that horse also gets used in lessons so I'm sure they'll say that's the reason. I do know that she was paid to school a student's horse at a show last year, but that was kept very hush-hush.

So this matter falls into that very gray area of proving that someone is not an Amateur. I finally gave up my Amateur status to teach a few lessons a week so I could afford to show my horse. I felt it was the right thing to do because that's what the AHSA says. Now this woman is competing against and occasionally beating my students in the Amateurs, although she really shouldn't be there at all! And coaching at the same shows!

What should I do? Most of the girls at that barn are really nice and probably have never even read the AHSA rules on Amateur status because they are going by what the barn management has told them is okay. I'm sure the one lady is well aware of the rules, but she and the owners are covering it up so she can do the M&S and medals. I really don't want to be a snitch, but this is just not fair to all the other "real" amateurs out there. Any suggestions? I'm sure if I talked to them privately I would be made out to be the bad guy, spoiling it for all these people that just needed a few extra dollars to show. I know that to file a formal protest with the AHSA it is expensive and you have to have proof. That would be hard since the barn is covering for all these people, and it comes down to one persons word against anothers. Is there any way to censor the barn? I heard that they actually had someone set down a few years back for showing in the Amateurs while teaching there...

poltroon
Feb. 2, 2001, 10:55 AM
No, they are not amateurs. And the rules very specifically state that being paid for barn work, and "teaching for free" is not acceptable.

I am surprised they are getting away with coaching at shows.

If they're teaching that much, I don't have a lot of sympathy, but I think one of the big problems with the way the h/j divisions are set up is that there really isn't anyplace for non-amateurs to show unless they have the horsepower to do the big jumps. I know some amateurs who skirt the line by occassionally exercising horses or teaching an up-down lesson here or there, and I wouldn't rat on someone like that, but it sounds like the people you describe are quite thoroughly ignoring the rules.

VTrider
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:02 AM
Nope, and these are the people that make me sick!

I know a few of these and if they were a little dumber, I would turn them in to the AHSA in half a heart beat!

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:06 AM
No, they are not amateurs. I think I know the barn you're speaking of and it's no secret that this is how they operate. If they followed AHSA rules, they would NOT be allowed to show as amateurs.

HN73
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:13 AM
Maybe someone could protest them??

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:26 AM
What about the parents who are paying good money for a lesson to be taught by a teenager or "amateur" that has no business teaching.

Dementia 13
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:31 AM
She's talking about me, guys! Yep, that's right, your very own Margaret Fiester. And by the way, I do not get paid -- I do not get a break in board, I do not get perks or favors from the Gladmons or Catherine. I pay for my own lessons, including my privates, and I pay Catherine for coaching and trailering me.

I teach because I love teaching and I love kids. I don't have any kids of my own and I was a VERY troubled teenager (maybe this is why I feel a real affinity for Kelsy) and riding really was a lifesaver during my teenage years, so the reason I am doing this is to "give back" a little bit to a sport I have loved for over 25 years.

SO there that is it! I am really, really upset by this post, and wish this person (who obviously knows me) would have asked me. I am only too happy to let people know that I do not get paid, have never gotten paid, and will never get paid. It is very sad that this person is so jealous and it is silly too, because Moesha can tell you I don't do very well in the jumper divisions!

Anyway, if anyone would like to e-mail me, please feel free to do so. I don't think I have done anything wrong, and I don't have anything to hide.

HN73
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:42 AM
If you aren't getting paid, you are still an amatuer.

Thanks for posting. It is very noble of you to feel you should give back to the sport. I know that I owe a lot of people out there!

Keep in mind, though, that although you don't get paid there are LOTS of psuedo amatuers out there right now and it works the nerves of a lot of us who aren't making a dime off the horses just so we can stay amatuers!

Kennett Square
Feb. 2, 2001, 11:48 AM
There is another girl in Northern VA that does teach at her mother's boarding barn to subsidize her being a groom at her trainers. She shows in the Adult Amateurs too. She actually won a class on an old lovely App at the Middleburg Classic two years ago and talk was then to protest her. But she still is going strong. The only good thing is she is usually not a threat to any other A/A and waching her throw crying fits and tantrums is usually most entertaining to say the least. Catty, you bet, but people who throw the biggest stones live in the biggest glass house! She likes to make disparaging remarks about others, well what goes round comes round. I try to find the good in her but have yet to see it. I will keep trying! Only the true amateurs can fix this situation by protesting. But having the hard tangiable evidence can be hard to come by.

Thank you for letting me vent! I will try to be more charitable in the future.

Sleepy
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:09 PM
Back in the days when I showed and actually had an amateur card, the one thing that I assiduously avoided was teaching. I supported my habit by braiding, hauling and 'babysitting'. I rarely paid for a hotel room because I usually had a junior in tow whose parents couldn't/wouldn't come to the show. On rare occasions I would warm one of the kids up or coach one at a show when the trainer wasn't available (i.e., we went to a local show while everybody else was at an A or trainer was off judging somewhere). But the fact that I did it at all could have led to misconceptions by those who didn't know me.

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:14 PM
I think this is just a very touchy subject for most of the true amateurs out there. Why should some follow the rules and others be allowed to continually break them.

Margaret-I don't think Miss S was personally attacking you. If you want to teach for free, that's great! I applaude you. But let's face it, that's not the way it usually works and people will always assume the worst.

VTrider
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you aren't getting paid, you are still an amatuer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, a very reliable source from this BB told me that even if you are say teaching lessons to work off board/feed/hay/hauling - you can't show as an amateur. Am I right?

Sleepy
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:21 PM
VTrider, I THINK working off board, etc. constitutes remumeration.

Twister
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:22 PM
If you get ANYTHING in exchange for teaching, you are a professional. You are allowed to accept a token of appreciation but I believe that is only for riding. Someone whip out the rule book on that one.

Kennett Square
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:22 PM
You are right VT. ANY renumeration up to $300 makes you a pro.Bartering for board is a payment of sorts. You put a price on your talents and trade then for someone elses wares. Basically putting a monetary cost to your services....

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:23 PM
Article 809. Amateur Certification.

1. Every person who has reached his/her 18th birthday and competes in classes for amateurs under AHSA rules must possess current amateur certification issued by the AHSA. This certification must be available for inspection or the competitor must have lodged with the competition secretary, at least one hour prior to such class, an application for such certification provided by the AHSA. Forms may be obtained from the AHSA. Certification will be issued only on receipt of the application properly signed and is revocable at any time for cause. Any person who has not reached his/her 18th birthday is an amateur and does not require amateur certification.

2. An amateur continues to be such until he/she has received a change in status from the AHSA. Any amateur who wishes to be re-classified on the grounds that he/she has engaged or is planning on engaging in activities which would prevent him/her from continuing to remain an amateur must notify the AHSA in writing.

3. There is no fee for amateur certification for Senior Active or Life Members. An annual fee of $30. will be charged for an amateur card or amateur certification for an individual who is not a member of the AHSA or CEF. Such certification will expire on November 30th.

4. In the event that a person holds an unrevoked certification but does not have it in his/her immediate possession, the competition secretary may accept a signed affidavit to that effect which must be submitted to the AHSA.

5. If a person violates or does not comply with the above, he/she will not be eligible to compete in amateur classes and will not be entitled to an award in such classes and will be deemed guilty of a violation within the meaning of Rule VII in the event he/she does compete.

6. In the event a person is found to be a professional as a result of a protest or charge made in connection with a competition, all awards won by such person in amateur classes at such competition and subsequent competitions shall be forfeited and returned to the competition and the person shall be subject to further disciplinary action. The holding of an amateur card does not preclude the question of amateur standing being raised by a protest or charge.

7.1 Any person whose application for amateur status or its renewal has been denied by the AHSA may request a hearing by the Hearing Committee or by such individual or committee as it may designate to review said decision. The request must be in writing and mailed to the Hearing Committee within ten (10) days from receipt of the decision sought to be reviewed and accompanied by $100.

7.2 The hearing shall be after ten days notice to all parties concerned. The notice shall contain a brief statement of the facts reporting the position of the AHSA and shall specify the time and place at which the hearing is to be held. The person requesting said hearing may attend and bring witnesses, sworn statements or other evidence on his or her behalf. Upon the written request of a representative of the AHSA or of the person requesting the hearing, there shall be furnished before said hearing any evidence to be introduced, the names of witnesses and the substance of their testimony.

7.3 The decision of the Hearing Committee or the person or committee designated to preside at said hearing shall be final.

7.4 Protests or charges brought in connection with a person's amateur status shall be handled in accordance with the provisions of Rule VI.

VTrider
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:25 PM
Thanks Moe...

Shamamateurs make my life hell!

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:26 PM
Amen to that VT

HN73
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:28 PM
How in the world do you prove someone isn't an amatuer?

I realize you can file a protest, but can you PROVE it? Or so you have to hope someone that wrote them a check steps up?

VTrider
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:30 PM
You would have to have documented proof. But so much under the table stuff goes on that many of these shamateur cases would be hard to prove!

HN73
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:33 PM
Documented proof! You'd have to

a) steal it
b) be ratting out someone you once employed
c) be paying off someone with a valid receipt

Basically, you can't really prove it???!!

Baroni
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:34 PM
I think it can be a gray area. I school alot of my trainer's sale horses 1) because she gets some cool horses in that anyone would love to ride and 2) she doesn't always have time to do it. I will also warm up the kids at a show if she is at different ring. Now I pay for full service board, shipping, entries etc. So according to my empty wallet - I am an amatuer. But do I get some free "perks"? For example, my trainer will school my horse more than the one time per week she gets paid to if I can't get to the barn. So I guess there is a bit a barter system going on. But I certainly don't consider myself one of the "shamatuers" I see around shows.

Dementia 13
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:38 PM
I do understand that perception is reality but I just wish Ms. S would have asked me what the deal was. I really cannot speak for the other people at the barn's situation, only my own.

I would have been happy to tell Ms. S why I teach, and why I don't need the income from teaching -- there is a reason for that too, and I would rather not go into it here. I don't think it is fair to assume things without knowing the facts.

And yes, you guys are correct. Any remuneration, whether it be bartering for services, or direct payment would make a person a professional, so I can definitely understand why people would be upset at the "shamateurs" out there.

And by the way, Ms. S -- the "payment" I received from Mickey was a beer.

B.G.M. heidi
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:47 PM
Can we contemplate for a second the following scenario.

Let's assume I have a horse I want shown in the amateur jumper divisions, as the horse's best resale value is as an amateur jumper. There is an 18 year-old amateur at our barn who is cash-strapped and could not otherwise show a nice, competitive horse, unless we provided one for them. We pay the board, the amateur dedicates two years to bringing the horse along, we pay entries, and associated show costs, the amateur in appreciation will occassionally school our child.

Two years later the horse is sold on at great profit, largely due to the efforts of the amateur. We want to compensate the amateur as our token of appreciation -- given the current rules though, we can't.

We can rail against the 'shamateurs' all we like but perhaps we can similarly acknowledge that the rules may not work in anyone's favour -- and in certain instances qualify as being unfair.

Miss S
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:54 PM
MargaretF- I am truly sorry that you have taken offense and are upset by my post. If you really have never received any kind of compensation and are doing this out of love, then I must commend you for selfless contribution to this sport. I only wish I had the time and dedication that you do! As Sleepy said, this may be a case of perception vs. reality. I would recommend that in your case you should minimize your open participation in any activities where someone might misconstrue the situation and deem you a professional according to AHSA rules. And it is not a question of ability, only of honesty.

Of course, that may not explain the other amateurs at the barn that are getting paid, even if it is only a few dollars a week. This should not be condoned by the barn, and it reflects on their reputation when they allow this to happen. But how do you protest a barn?

One just has to hope that everyone will play by the rules, even though they don't always seem fair!

Miss S
Feb. 2, 2001, 12:59 PM
MargaretF - I don't know who Mickey is or know anything about a beer. Again, this post was not directed at you, but at the barn in general.

HN73
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:01 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think I should be able to teach lessons to kids and still be an amatuer!

I said somewhere on some post that there should be something like to stay an amatuer your students can't compete above a certain level or something along those lines.

I think that if I have a handful of kids that do stuff like the W/T, short stirrup, student hunter type divisions I should still be able to compete in the adult amatuer classes. Riding is expensive, and a few extra dollars could certainly open up some additional opportunities for me.

But that is not what the rules say. I believe in rules, and regulations and boundaries. That is what keeps us civil.

I also think that rules should change if they aren't affective or fair.

brilyntrip
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:03 PM
In recent years the AHSA has tightened the amateur rule up quite abit so get out your trusty rule book and read it!

Dementia 13
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:11 PM
S - I would have been happy to tell you that my trust fund pays for my riding. All you had to do was ask me. I am pretty much an open book and feel that if anyone has a question, they should ask me!

Its up to you to decide what to do about the other folks at the barn, but definitely if you feel strongly about it, you should do what you feel is the right thing. Maybe they just need to be educated about the situation and the potential rule violation.

Moe, you asked "what about the parents who are paying good money for a lesson to be taught by a teenager or "amateur" that has no business teaching." I have seen plenty of crappy professionals out there, so just because someone says they are a "professional", it doesn't mean they are a good trainer.

VT Rider - I am sorry if I have offended you.

Miss S
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:23 PM
MargaretF - I agree that maybe these people just need to be educated about the rules and how they could be violating them. But who's responsibility is it to educate them? I would think that their employer would make them aware, but I think in this case the barn is knowingly condoning this situation. Maybe they think it is a way of getting cheap instructors? Of course, maybe I'm wrong about that too.

And I definitely agree that calling yourself a professional does not make you a good trainer. There are some young people out there that are very good teachers and are more worthy of a paycheck than some of the bigger trainers...as long as they're not showing in the amateurs!

VTrider
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> VT Rider - I am sorry if I have offended you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MargaretF - what are you smoking? You have never offended me! I think you are a great person! Have you not checked your email lately?

Hopefully we will meet at a show soon! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Moe
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:28 PM
I couldn't agree more that some pro's shouldn't be. But.... I've seen first hand the people that are teaching there. I think it's cheap labor and the parents are getting ripped off. But that's just the way that particular barn has operated from day one.

Dementia 13
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:34 PM
Ms. S -- maybe what we can do is just let the management of MM know that there are a number of people who are questioning the ami status of some of the instructors. I think once they know that there are questions being raised, they will quickly address the situation (well, one would hope so, anyway).

Anyway, welcome to the board -- it is a really fun place, and I get lots of great information here.

Thank you VT Rider -- I don't know what I was thinking -- I just got worried that I had offended you.

Okay, I feel much better now, guys! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK
Feb. 2, 2001, 01:59 PM
Yes, there are some shamateurs out there who make you want to grind your teeth, but I am still getting regularly beat by a lot more riders who are fortunate enough to have several mounts, and can jump/practice more than me, or the spouses of trainers who have access to a lot more animals than I will ever have. Only problem is that they are not breaking the rules. So I try to color me green with envy, instead of red with anger (besides, I like green more than red /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

And usually before I get too green with envy, I am witness to one of those lovely spouse/trainer "discussions" in the schooling area or at the in gate. Then I lose all envy. It's mentally hard enough to do this sport, without getting trained by a loved one.

Canter
Feb. 2, 2001, 02:01 PM
MargaretF - I wish you could hear me clapping. How wonderful to hear from someone actually giving back to the sport. Bravo

heidi - I do believe that there is a clause in our amateur rule that does allow for "gifts" the dealio is however, the "gift" must be approved by the CEF BOD beforehand.

Flash44
Feb. 2, 2001, 02:06 PM
Should an amateur who is not "good enough" to teach intermediate lessons really be teaching beginners?

I understand that showing costs a lot of money, especially in the A/A division where prize money is a joke. But there are plenty of other ways to earn a few extra bucks legally.

I just started a business ($100 start up cost!) in January and am already showing a profit. I'm not going to get rich real quick off it, but I expect it to be paying my board bill by March. Email me if you want more info, it's fun and easy.

Janet
Feb. 2, 2001, 02:57 PM
I think part of the REASON for at least some of the "shamateurs" is that, the way the current rules are, there is no appropriate division for a rider who gets paid, but is not an "expert" rider.

Because they get paid, they can't compete in the amateur divisions, but if they ride in the "pro" divisions they are completely outclassed by the experts.

Personally, I would prefer to see the divisions defined by ability (based on competition history, for instance) rather than by source of income.

Showpony
Feb. 2, 2001, 03:20 PM
I agree Janet! It seems to me the logical solution. However, Someone will always feel slighted and there will always be people who try to bend the rules. It is impossible to make everyone happy and be totally fair.

lillian
Feb. 2, 2001, 03:51 PM
What about this "working student" deal? They're still considered amateurs, right? I don't see a big difference. On the other hand, I see a lot of abuse of the amy rule at the various barns I've ridden at. You just have to chalk it up to the fact that some people will cheat, and that's that. Personally, I wouldn't have the cajones to show in the amateur divisions, with everyone knowing I was a big cheat -- but to each his or her own.

SoEasy
Feb. 2, 2001, 04:21 PM
is Article 808, not 809, really ....

Article 808. Amateur Status.

1. Regardless of one's equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under AHSA rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in Art. 107, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional (for professionals wishing to be re‑classified as amateurs, see Art. 810.2.1):

a) Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing in halter/in hand, training, schooling or conducting clinics or seminars.

b) Accepts remuneration for giving instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).

c) Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.

d) Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold.

e) Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes.

f) Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand.

g) Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions any horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity.

2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified:

a) The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.

b) Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.

c) Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.

d) Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300. are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note: accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300., is considered remuneration.)

e) Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified.

I think a working student who is a junior is an amateur, because all juniors are amateurs, but I see no way that an adult can be a working student and an amateur unless, as MargaretF, they work entirely for free! and pay every bill themselves too, since barter counts.

ponyjumper4
Feb. 2, 2001, 05:30 PM
Could someone please explain to me what is and is not allowed to be done by a working student, or what is the "official" definition? I would at some point in the not too distant future like to be a working student or like some type of intern at least for a summer or something but I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize my status. I also agree with anyone who thinks that the reason there are so many "shamatuers" is because there is no division for anyone unless they can easily do 3'9 and up like all the time. I am perfectly capable of training a decent pony or schooling some of the farm's school horses but I have hardly any experience when it comes to the "A" circuit and am no where near the ability of some of today's "professionals". I really wish that the AHSA could make the whole issue a little more user friendly.

Jumphigh83
Feb. 2, 2001, 05:37 PM
I will never cease to be amazed at the creative ways people justify cheating the system by semantics. If you teach and train...you are NOT an amateur. Twist the words and the rule anyway you want..dsguise it as "giving back" or whatever...you are part of the problem, not the solution and you are why alot of your fellow amateurs really don't like what you are doing and how you are doing it. I guess you need an attorney to interpret the rules the way some people choose to read them...You teach, you train, you are a professional. This is a very sore subject with alot of disgruntled REAL amateurs who are sick and tired of going by the rules while others thumb their noses at the same and blithely go about doing whatever thet want, regardless of the rule of "law". It's really sad.

RedHotMama
Feb. 2, 2001, 07:09 PM
I applaud your nobility MargaretF BUT you are by all standards a professional and have the responsibilities of one. Do you pay for teacher's insurance? If not, you are also not very bright, because even though you are doing this for fun and to help out the little kiddies, you are legally responsible for their well-being, their advancement and their safety at all times and can be held accountable if an accident occurs. It is amazing how soon people change and file lawsuits against a "volunteer" when things go awry. What kind of certification do you have in order to teach in this place? And even though you teach for free and to give back, why would you, admittedly an amateur and one that is not particularly competitive, believe that you can train riders? It sounds like you want to help these kids on an emotional level which I am sure you do, but riding ? that is something different.
If your barn carries insurance for you as an instructor, guess what sweetie, then you are a professional. If they do not and you get your own insurance for teaching riding lessons and/or training horses, you are also a professional.
Yes, people talk and knowing what you do, most local people are going to resent your appearance in the Adult Amateur ring and anyone else who is affiliated with your barn who shows as an Amateur and is out there teaching lessons. This is not right and deep down, you know it.

RedHotMama
Feb. 2, 2001, 07:13 PM
Ms. S. Don't sit on your thumbs! Report these people to the proper channels as the next horse show and let them prove that they are amateurs. The proof is not up to you.
I know for a fact that a couple of the young women in the M&S are not amateurs, but they are sure still riding as one.

Snowbird
Feb. 2, 2001, 08:05 PM
The fact is that the loop holes and contamination of the Amateur Rule have been and are expansive. There was a time when they tried to make 14 year olds professional while those who trained and rode for the Olympic Team were amateurs.

No one has come up with a valid definition that did not jeopardize the very people you describe. Those people are showing at the behest of those in charge. I wish there was an answer, there was a survey taken several years ago, and the results were chucked in the round floor file and never published.

If there ever was a mission, a definition of amateur is that mission. Think about it, all Olympic athletes are supposed to be Amateur.

Janet
Feb. 2, 2001, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You teach, you train, you are a professional. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true.
You get paid, or get a discount, or goods, or get services- you are a professional.

You don't get any money, discounts, good or services for ANYTHING, you are an amateur.

Robby Johnson
Feb. 3, 2001, 04:19 AM
I really admire your determination and reason for teaching, Margaret. There are so many troubled teens out there, and so few adults who really take an interest in them and want to help them. (Obviously, we'd not have so many troubled teenagers if there were an ample supply of responsible parents and adults.)

But, I think you probably realize that what you're doing is against AHSA rules.

With that in mind, could you not figure out a different way to reach out to these kids - involving horses - that isn't questionable? What about something along the lines of "riding theory" or "group therapy?" Just 30 minutes a week or so for the kids to let out their frustrations and talk about their week. I could see using tools like essay writing contests, other barn-related contests to promote self-awareness and improvement, etc. You could even develop a program with your local department of human services, etc.

Just some thoughts. I really do admire you for having the courage and confidence to "bust yourself out" on the bb! But if I were you I'd really consider ditching the questionable practices.

I know how I feel about the AHSA amateur rules, because I utilize the arena of a friend who rides in AHSA amateur divisions. She has helped me a lot with my show-jumping, but it's very clear that she *is* an amateur. She sets poles for me and will recommend jumps to hop over, but she doesn't, at any point, even resemble "teaching a lesson." She might say, "see if you can add a stride on the bending line," or something to get me thinking, but never does she take over the ride from the ground.

Robby

Moe
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:28 AM
Can of worms anyone????

As someone stated earlier, it all boils down to honesty, not ability. We all know atleast one person breaking the amateur rule and maybe the reason we get so upset over it is the fact that there's not much you can do about it.
Yes, you can protest, but who wants to be known as "oh, that's the person who busted out so and so". Nobody likes conflict and nobody wants to be known as the "bad guy", even though by protesting a known offender, you've done nothing wrong. Tough situation.

I think the rule itself needs to be re-examined and we'll never be able to make everyone happy, but is it possible to atleast make it fair?

brilyntrip
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:30 AM
I can understand the reluctance of some of these people to file a protest .First it costs $100 (I believe)which you only get back after the AHSA has found in your favor .I was told by a very very well resected steward that the AHSA does not throw out many amateur status issues .In otherewords the person protesting would have to have the actual cashed checks ,made out to the person in question,with "teaching lessons" written in the memo .He told me that even then,the hearing committee would not decide against the "amateur".

Also the "bad Blood " that results from this kind of thing makes it hard for anyone to be comfortable standing there at the ingate.It is a shame that amateurs need to pay for their riding and showing by teaching under the carpet so to speak.It isnt right,if you buy and sell teach and train even if you sell horses i.e. anything besides your own animals ,are the secretary at a barn (ANSWERING THE PHONE FOR C SAKES) you are not allowed to hold an amateur card .You can't even be a groom and get paid!but They do consider farriers vetrinarians and braiders eleigible to hold amateur cards.But you can go to the olympics and hav endorsement contracts and still be an amateur.

Now here is the difference,there seems to be two types of amateur.1)the type we are all discussing here,shows in hunters and jumpers with classes labeled AMATEUR ADULT OR AMATEUR OWNER
2)olympic caliber atheletes who get endorsements from big international companies ,to work around the amateur thing but are in an entirely different continent from the first group of amateurs. It really isnt fair at all.

Lord Helpus
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:34 AM
Where ever a line is drawn, people will inevitably get as close to it as they can, without going over. And sometimes it seems like splitting hairs to define what an amateur is or is not. But a line must be drawn SOMEWHERE.

Years ago in California, the "Cece Durante" rule was enacted. As many of you might know, she is the daughter of Jimmy Durante and is an excellent rider. After her JR years, she started showing (for free, because she certainly did not need the money) horses in her barn in the A/A division to school them. She was clearly acting as a professional, in every sense of the word but the financial one.

So a rule was enacted (sorry I cannot remember the exact wording of the rule, but it has been a while and my memory fades...) to prevent wealthy people from stepping over the line, while less fiscally fortunate people could not do the same thing.

Are there any Californians out there who remember this rule and the wording? Merry -- you would have been an active show ring rider during this time--can you help me out here?

The INTENT of the amatuer rule is to keep people who teach/ride/handle horses for others on one side of the line and those who don't on the other. Call it what you will: "Giving back" is one term. But it is still violating the INTENT of the rule.

And I agree about the insurance thing. If the barn covers you under their liability policy, you are a professional. If you have your own, you are a professional. And if you have a trust fund and are teaching children without insurance, you are crazy. You could end up "giving back" the bulk of that trust fund should one of those children ever be seriously hurt in a lesson with you.

There will ALWAYS be inequities created by such a rule, but who ever said that showing was "fair"?

ohnowwhat
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:51 AM
You hit the nail (nails) right on the head.

If I didn't have such a terrible earache (leading to a headache), I would chime in at length myself.

Some people sleep perfectly well at night knowing that they are s-t-r-e-e-e-e-c-h-i-n-g the limits of what is deep-down kosher. (like Bill Clinton, for example...LOL)

Enjoying this thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jumphigh83
Feb. 3, 2001, 08:04 AM
Sorry but if you teach or train, you are a professional...If you do it for free, you are a very stupid professional...No amount of semantics and dancing around the truth will change the FACT that you are CHEATING the system, yourself, and the true amateurs out there. Rationalize all you want, you are WRONG and are not brave enough to either admit it, or give up you "status" and live the truth. If you are good enough to teach and train, do it. Stop hiding behind the rule and the semantics and DO THE RIGHT THING. People are amazing creatures. And De Nile is NOT a river in Egypt.

gogogirl
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:25 PM
Last evening, I posted an item in this thread observing that Miss S. had, herself, been witnessed as potentially in violation of AHSA rules; to wit: Articles 302 and 2703. My post has mysteriously vaporized into thin air. Yet, Miss. S.'s initial post, which precipitated this entire thread, and accuses Margaret F. and her training facility of complicity in conspiracy to violate AHSA rules, possible federal wage-hour law violations, possible federal child-labor law violations and if, in fact, her allegations of check-writing fraud are to be believed, possible federal RICO violations, remains intact. What's going on here? Is this not an open forum? I remain confused. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

RedHotMama
Feb. 3, 2001, 05:46 PM
Since I read every single post when it came on, I don't think you are right GoGoGirl and if you are who I think you are, your house is not very clean either and I wouldn't be the one out there throwing "them thar stones" at someone who has had the guts to blow the whistle, albeit anonomously on a Maryland barn with bad practices and who obviously use their amateurs for their professional staff and still flaunt them in their divisions and possibly in their ads along with their achievements as amateurs. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

wileycoyote
Feb. 3, 2001, 06:02 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif My 2 cents!
I think it is great that you want to help out at your barn MargaretF, but you and others like you are what makes other amateurs feel cheated out of being a legitimate amateur. Although you and your associates are not making tons of money here with your lessons and coaching, it is still just that you are acting in a professional capacity. Some of my amateurs "barnsit" when I am away, some fill up the water buckets on a weekend or evening when help didn't come, some toss a pat of hay to the horses and some stand beside the ring and "help out" a nervous adult or worried child during the time until I can be there at a horse show and they do this out of love and helpfulness and I believe this is probably why you do it; the difference is you do it all the time and so do your associates there and mine might do something like that once in 6 months or hand walk a beginner after their lesson.
I am not saying you are not a special kind of gal for wanting to "give back" and quite honestly if there is one thing I wish I could do in this life, it is to make enough money from anywhere other than horses so I could do all the horse things and not have to charge a lot of talented people who don't have the means to do more, BUT I would still be a professional because I am a teacher and a trainer and I always will be and honey, so are you!

Flash44
Feb. 3, 2001, 08:20 PM
Ok, about 2 years ago, I did 2 beginner lessons for my trainer because I was at the barn and she got held up somewhere else. In addition, I taught the Intermediate show team one lesson. At the time of those lessons, I was doing the morning feed and was given a reduced rate for board for my feeding services. I only did those 3 lessons, and it was a fill in at the last minute kind of thing. I was not reimbursed in any way for those lessons, not even more than the usual reduction in board. So am I a professional? Ha ha watch me ride.

Jumphigh83
Feb. 4, 2001, 07:13 AM
Technically..yes you are. If my 76 year old mother (who owns the barn ) trail rides a customers horse, she too is a professional. Your attitude isnt pretty and does NOTHING to help remedy the situation, which some find NOTHING to laugh at or mock openly. You too are part of the problem, not the solution. This is so sad. No one has the gonads to stand up for what is right and wrong and those involved openly defy the system, double dog daring people to report them and SUCCEEDING! The AHSA needs to READ this page and look into some of these cavalier attitudes by the shamateurs out there. Your attitude (and that of MANY others) is nothing to be proud of...ride away, but what goes around, does eventually come around. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flash44
Feb. 4, 2001, 09:43 AM
Oh get off your high horse, Jumphigh. At the time I did those lessons, I had no idea that I was breaking a rule and was just doing a favor for my trainer. I did not grow up in the show ring, and had only been jumping for 3 years. I would never begin to think that I am capable of teaching, and spent the lessons praying for my trainer to show up. MY ATTITUDE is that it is shameful that some people knowingly bend and break the rules, and it is pretty much typical of AHSA competition that this is happening. It's a farce with the person who has the most money/most expensive horse/most training rides winning the most ribbons. There are very few TRUE AMATEURS, who ride their own horses all the time, competing. It is a shame that the AHSA has to write these rules and competitors don't have enough class and sportsmanship to compete in the division in which they belong. My "Ha ha watch me ride" was self critical. I don't think anyone would ever mistake me for a pro.

MsHunter
Feb. 4, 2001, 10:29 AM
The problem I have with this situation is that it prevents a true professional from earning a living. If there were more people teaching riding for free it would reduce the amount of positions available for "real" professional horseman trying to earn a living. Many amateurs turn professional without having ever shown a horse and yet they hang out a shingle and charge $25/hour for a lesson while you may be offering much more quality and safe instruction for $50 an hour, this is bad enough as the "new" person in the sport can not diseminate the information about who they have chosen to take lessons from. When you start teaching for free it makes me feel like I should just forget about trying to even run a legitimate business. And, even if you aren't getting paid SOMEONE IS. The person writing the check for the lesson I am sure has no idea what is going on, and that disturbs me the most.

OFF SOAPBOX NOW AFTER VENTING

ponyjumper4
Feb. 4, 2001, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh get off your high horse <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, I was fixing to type the same thing in your defense Flash. I think a few people need to do this, people are getting way to involved in things they know nothing about. I did plenty more than that as a junior, but of course none of that goes on now. Every now and then I'll hop on a school horse just to hack them or something if they hadn't been ridden in a while, but I receive no type of compensation whatsoever in return besides something else to hop on. I'll help coach this one kid for free, but that is because she is riding/showing my pony that I broke and know better than my trainers. I taught the mare everything she knows so naturally I'm the best person to tell her how to ride it---kinda like telling her where her buttons are.

Lord Helpus
Feb. 4, 2001, 12:03 PM
You bring up an interesting scenario: the girl riding your pony. I am assuming that it is still yours? And you are not riding it because? Perhaps you have outgrown it and are trying to get it sold?

The girl who mucks stalls for me is a very novice rider (and is, of course, int he eyes of the AHSA, a professional). I have one good old guy that she hacks to keep him legged up. She gets paid for the time she spends riding him. His specialty is as a beginner rider horse. He is dead cute and a real winner up to 2'6", but once the jumps go to 3', he cannot make the distances.

So, I want to get this horse sold. I take him to a show with my employee riding him at 2' in the beginner rider division. I set jumps for her and am telling her how to ride the course: "Go in and turn left, then go outside the brown jump over there and then turn to the right. Pick up your canter before you get to the white jump then circle back by the ingate before you head to the first jump" kind of coaching. (This is her VERY FIRST show in her life and she is frozen with fear.)

Am I a professional? Have I stepped over the line?

ponyjumper4
Feb. 4, 2001, 12:50 PM
Yes I am trying to sell her, the whole reason I bought her was to train her and then sell her. My trainers have her now 'cause they are helping me sell her--basically just having someone ride her so she gets worked (I'm in college now so I can only come home on the weekends). The girl is riding her and showing her 'cause she is a junior and can show her in the divisions we are targeting the mare for. I am still riding her when I come home and I will continue to ride and show her (in eligable divisions) until she is sold. She is still my pony. I'm the sole owner (I just have to pay my mom back for her when she's sold, but she's mine). I only help the girl when I'm there and it is usually during her lesson with our trainers. I never help her by myself, but I would anyway 'cause it is my pony and I'll do what I want with it. Like I said, I know the pony, I trained it. If that makes me a professional, then anyone who buys a green horse for themself or is the sole owner and trains it and sells it is one as well.

PamM: I don't think that makes you a professional, especially if you are not getting paid for it. I see it more as helping her out, since she is nervous and all and it is your horse. When I help that girl out, it's just when I see her doing something that my mare wouldnt' understand or realize what she is asking. For example: When the girl first learned to canter, she learned to ask for it while posting. I wasnt' taught that, I was taught to ask for it through the sitting trot so that is how my mare learned it. If you post the transition upward, you cant' collect her and get her round and bent to pick up the correct lead. I help her with hints like that.

[This message was edited by luvmywonderpony on Feb. 04, 2001 at 04:06 PM.]

yaya
Feb. 4, 2001, 01:15 PM
According to the Chronicle article of Jan 26, you are a professional for accepting payment for selling horses or ponies ONLY if you don't own it.

If you own all or part of the horse yourself, and sell it, you are still an amateur. Of course, even this can be abused. I can see people paying $1 for a tiny part ownership, then selling for a big profit, and still be considered an amateur because of the part ownership. (uh oh, hope I didn't give anyone ideas!)

The AHSA rules regarding amateurs really revolve around PAYMENT for activities, not the actual activities themselves. So technically, according to the AHSA, you can teach everyone and his brother, and ride every horse under the sun AS LONG AS you recieve nothing for it. (No free board, no breaks on costs of services, etc.)

Ghazzu
Feb. 4, 2001, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I would prefer to see the divisions defined by ability (based on competition history, for instance) rather than by source of income. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Janet on this. It is a subject that comes upoften in Arab show cirlces as well, particularly in the scenario of nationally prominent trainers/judges whose spouses ride AOTR, but also on the local level where you see Jane Doe show up with students in tow and later on she's in an AOTR class.

I think that doing something along the lines of a restructured maiden. novice, limit, open horse and/or rider is really the only equitable approach, especially as AHSA seems to have no desire whatsoever to enforce the rules, judging by the cases I am familiar with.
(And yes, I know of one where more than one person complained and went through the formal process and the person in question got off scot free, esentially because, as someone else said here--You need to have 'for riding lessons' written on the check to convince them.)

Ben and Me
Feb. 4, 2001, 03:13 PM
Is braiding considered something that could lose your status? Just wondering...

ponyjumper4
Feb. 4, 2001, 03:33 PM
No, they say braiding is ok.

grizzley
Feb. 4, 2001, 05:12 PM
"c) Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses. "

I was under the impression that this rule was interpreted thusly - that if you worked at the barn as a stall mucker or feeder and did not school or train horses or teach lessons, you were still an amateur. Many professionals have working students who ride as amateurs and unless they are paid to ride specifically, I thought they were still amateurs.
For instance - If a stall cleaner does the barn feeding for extra riding time and rides one of the school horses in a practice or a lesson, he is not paid to ride or train

Note to Miss S - Great post and even though you probably wouldn't win in an AHSA protest of these shamateurs, they are now forewarned that everyone out there is watching them and they should be too
scared (or hopefully honorable) to keep doing this because it will just give MM a worse name.
(Is MM a person or the barn?)

stephanie
Feb. 4, 2001, 05:20 PM
... someone who grooms at horse shows in exchange for a break on coaching fees... no riding, just tacking up, wrapping, wiping boots, setting jumps, etc? are they an amateur?

grizzley
Feb. 4, 2001, 05:25 PM
I'm also confused, Stephanie.
For many years, I also did that for my coaching fees, etc. or I would go and groom for my trainer's horses in order to offset the cost of stall, trailering, coaching, entries, etc. I was still an amateur since I didn't get paid to ride, train, teach or anything, just work like hell and RAKE RAKE RAKE! Man, if raking the shed row at the horse shows makes someone a professional, I am one of the tops! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jumphigh83
Feb. 4, 2001, 05:44 PM
No high horse here..step on a nerve did I?? Oh so sorry...Do whatever you want..It's not me who will sit on you..it will be the real amateurs out there who are tired of the crap and the rule bending and the like..I say do whatever your conscience lets you do. Don't put me on a "high horse" for pointing out the obvious.

Merry
Feb. 4, 2001, 07:57 PM
One specific case out here that got protested was (I am not going to use names, but Pam would know them: for the first example, think doyenne of Orange County property???). Anyway, she employed a number of hotshot young amateurs just out of the juniors who rode all of her horses in the amateur divisions. Some A/A, some suddenly "owned" the horse. It was well-known that these riders were spending their waking hours riding and schooling these horses. But they circumvented the rules by being paid as "barn manager", "secretary", "personal assistant", etc. Like how stupid are we? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hence, the rule became you cannot be paid as a groom, manager, etc. AND ALSO ride/school/teach, even if the ride/school/teach is for FREE. (Article 808, c.)

You can groom, muck and rake until the cows come home, and be paid and still be an amateur, but in the strictest interpretation of the rule, you cannot be paid for mucking AND ALSO ride/school/teach, even if it's for FREE.

Hey, it ain't my rule. I have to live by it, too. I have been protested several times, but it was only threats, and I totally took glee in setting these people straight. I am soooo conscientious about my amateur status; it's kind of a local joke. Does it bother me? Isn't it interesting that I get comments only when I'm winning? Oh well, such is life...

The other rule change was due to the inordinate number of wives riding AO when their husbands were the professional trainer in the barn. So, right, you mean the wife never derives any income from the training & lessons? And she doesn't have an unfair advantage (loads of free training). To stay true to the Am. rule, these wives could not coach or school the clients. It was nearly impossible to enforce. So... the rule became that you are not an amateur if a member of your immediate family is a professional (Article 808.f.).

I would think that makes it tough for some older young adults whose parents are professionals. ? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

(Gee, PamM, was that a long enough reply?) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lord Helpus
Feb. 4, 2001, 07:58 PM
"c) Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her

OK, now I get it: the important word in the above is the "and". You are not an amateur if you accept renumeration for...sec, bkeper,vet, GROOM, farrier AND give instruction/show/train etc.

So a groom is not a professional UNLESS you both groom and train/show etc. I can see why this rule was enacted---to keep out people who were getting paid to groom, and then training horses for "free". So, as I now read this, you can groom, bookeep etc and still be an amateur as long as you stay away from the training/showing/riding etc. --In other words, beign a real groom is ok.. You just cannot be a trainer in grooms clothes...

Bumpkin
Feb. 4, 2001, 08:04 PM
you cannot show Amateur?
Is that what happened to the Amateur whose mother owns and trains a show stable?
Or is it okay?
Twinkie Nissen's husband is a Vet and sometimes is the show Vet, can she still show Amateur?
Wasn't last years AHSA A/O Champion from CO the wife of a trainer?
Wow, I am really confused now /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Merry
Feb. 4, 2001, 08:08 PM
Frankly, though, I agree that it's nearly impossible to protest anyone and prove it. What are they going to do? Subpoena bank statements?

The only fairly recent protest that was upheld that I'm familiar with was a gal who worked solely for a family-run farm, getting to show their horses in exchange for working/running their place. *She did all the training of the horses*. The owners paid all expenses, but apparently the gal received no outright salary. It was decided that the rumuneration of paying entry fees and show expenses alone, plus an assumed free lease of the horses, far exceeded the "$300. token of appreciation" and her amateur status was not only revoked, but she had to return the championships she had recently won.

Merry
Feb. 4, 2001, 08:13 PM
Bumpkin, the Twinkie thing has been a topic of discussion for many, many years... But if her husband is just a vet, technically, it's okay.

As for the wife of a trainer being AO champ... I haven't a clue. Except that MAYBE she's someone with a documented professional life, with indeed a separate bank account and witnesses that she does not train or support her husband's endeavors? (I am so ambivalent half the time; it's probably a good thing I have a permanent excuse from jury duty!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jumpsalot
Feb. 5, 2001, 05:35 AM
I think this rule is STREEEEEEEEEtched just a tad. Prominent(?) sales barn/ jumper rider/ Trainer in western part of a NE state-
anyway- his wife USED to be a vet & has always been a great ammy rider, but I have SEEN her in the schooling area, telling a client to jump jumps, giving pointers on how to fix a problem & then approach the in gate with the rider, while the groom wipes boots, etc.
THIS activity is EXACTLY (minus the groom part) what my ammy status was yanked for. HOW & WHY can this continue? Is it an innate fear for their lives if they protest?

BostonBanker
Feb. 5, 2001, 05:41 AM
Okay, so I am really bored at work and reading this loooonnnnggg thread. I'm not even going to get into this argument. Can I just suggest that if anyone is truely concerned about their amatuer status, they CALL the AHSA? I ran into a situation this summer like that - didn't know if I could help some kids out at a show, and still be an amateur. The person I spoke to at the AHSA (can't remember his name) was very polite and helpful...far more so than many of the people on this thread are being.

ProzacPuppy
Feb. 5, 2001, 06:07 AM
I'm new to AHSA and haven't even gotten the rulebook yet (computer to slow to read it online).

IN A NUTSHELL - a junior (under 18) can get paid to ride and not have a problem with status? Even if this is a permanent, full time basis riding job? That seems to be what I am reading here.

Lord Helpus
Feb. 5, 2001, 06:19 AM
Hey guys, look at the phrase "OTHER THAN HORSES owned/leased by him/her"

That's the phrase which keeps Sandy Dennehy and others in the show ring.

This thread is focusing on the Amateur part (which is important since it affects botht eh A/O and the A/A divisions. But, often the "owner" portion of the A/O is more commonly violated. Sale horses come into a trainer's barn and they are "sold" to trainer's wife ($1 up front, balance due upon resale of the horse) so she can ride them A/O.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be a trainer's wife: who is to say how many horses are out there listed as owned by someone who does not have to pay for them until they are "re-sold"? Hard to police this one... Terms of sale are usually private.

Dementia 13
Feb. 5, 2001, 06:37 AM
Golly you guys -- I had no idea that such a swirl of controversy would surround my giving back to the horse community. I really do appreciate most of your comments -- except for some of you, who are obviously so bitter and twisted you are in serous need of counseling. It's not what was said, but the way it was said -- please, cannot we be a bit civil in our discussions of such a controversial topic?

But anyway, since I don't want to get on the bad side of the AHSA, and since I obviously misinterpreted the rule that even if you are totally in a volunteer capacity, it would probably be a good idea if I did not do the lesson stuff on Saturdays anymore. And Robby Johnson, your idea about helping the troubled kids was a great one.

Ms. S -- this is definitely one of the better threads and I certainly have no hard feelings. You can still use my horse in the Monday lessons if you like.

Cheers everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rileyt
Feb. 5, 2001, 06:52 AM
OK... I'm reading this thread... and I gather, many of you ammies out there are PISSED. Here's the problem I see. The amature status is supposedly designed to keep the really good, "I ride for a living" people from competing with the more "recreational" rider (I use "recreational" VERY loosely, because I realize no one here isn't QUITE serious!). Well, the rules, do only a so-so job of achieving that goal. As noted, there are some very serious amateur riders, who may have tons of money, strings of horses, and NEVER GET PAID! They may be as good or better riders than many "pros" out there. And it sounds like many "true" amateurs are tired of getting beat by these people. Well, the SOLUTION is to change the RULES. You CAN'T have it both ways! I hear people screaming about how so and so got paid for teaching and what not. Well, that person is violating the rules. BUT, guess what, contrary to one post, no where in teh rules does it say that if you're teaching for free, but your barn takes out insurance on you for teaching, that THAT makes you a professional! Sure, does that practice potentially violate the "spirit" of the amature rules? Maybe. It sounds like some posters are really just bent out of shape from getting beaten by really GOOD amatures. Maybe the solution is to create riding level distinctions. In defense of MargaretF (whom I have never met), if she does it for free, she is FOLLOWING THE RULES, and, BY AHSA STANDARDS IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL. Maybe, in real life, she is a good enough horseperson to be considered a pro in the everyday use of the word... but the AHSA has set forth specific standards! Maybe their definition sucks, but you can't hold people to a double standard! I hear some people saying "Well, Margaret F is a professional because she violated rule 808... blah blah blah" and then others saying, well, "She hasn't violated any rules, but she sure ACTS like a professional!" YOU can't have it both ways. It is unfair to people like Margaret F. (And we know, there are probably a lot of others in her shoes). The solution? Fix the rule so that you feel like you can compete against appropriate people. Don't bash people who zealously adhere to the strict interpretation of the rules, only to find out that they can't win, because people are gonna whine about them being pros anyway. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jumphigh83
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:09 AM
ALOT of people out there "push the envelope" of the AO rules. Dana has a new horse every weekend (so it seems) and then they are sold....hmmmmm..does she really own the horse or is she the interum "owner" to get the horse sold in the division it is likely to be most successful?? Hey, she is a great rider, no doubt, but is this a rule violation??? Not really because the rule is so loosely written that it allows this to go on...as long as there are holes in the rules that you can throw a cow through, then there are going to be those people that use the gap to their best advantage..as far as those same people teaching, training, or "giving advice" I don't know how to fix that...are they training or just having an opinion out loud??? I don't know the answers but stop shooting the messanger..I don't make the rules..I just opine about their enforcement, or the lack thereof.

TeriKessler
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:22 AM
There are many ways to contribute to the horse show community without icidentally benefitting in a questionable way that jeapordized your amateur status. Sherry Robertson is an excellent example. She organized several programs that directly benefit many people (herself excluded), including the Be Our Guest Program, which brings underprivileged and handicapped children to WEF for a day with horses, blacksmiths, riders and vets. She also instituted an equitation challegneg in memory of Mr Mutch sr which gave eq kids a unique opportunity to test their skills in a class like no other.

Clea Newman is another superb example. Clea is an amateur who donates an enormous amount of time and energy to a therapeutic riding program called Pegasus which brings the love of horses to disabled people who might otherwise never even see a horse in person. I know of one extremely prominent barn wich donates the use of it's olympic calibre facilities on Mondays to this program.

Kathy Kusner developped "Horses in the Hood" for inner city kids. Again, selfless, giving, sharing a love for horses. All without the taint of personal gain. Anyone who would like to Give Back To The Riding Community should ask any of these people how they can contribute.

All of these people want, need and welcome hands-on help Giving Back to others. Taking the place of a professional instructor, rider or sales agent is a self-serving way to "Give Back" when so very many other ways exists. Of course, that assumes your motives are as pure as the people mentioned above and their volunteers.


As a gentle reminder to people who eloquently find excuses to teach, train and act as a sales agent while asserting their right to show in the amateur ring, a euphemism is just a softer Fu$#You-ism. And the rules are there for you "special people with special circumstances" too. After all, aren't we all "special"?

I'd like to wind this up with an anecdote I heard that explained the difference between double talk and straight talk.

A guy is driving through a small southern town. At each stop sign he encounters, he slows down and "rolls" through. The town sheriff observes this about 5 times, pulls the driver over and tells the driver that he must come to a stop at stop signs. The driver protests, " but I was going so slow I practically did stop!" The officer then uses his billy club to beat the man through his open car window. "OW. God, STOP", the driver shouts. The sheriff continues the beating and says," but I'm doing it so slowly I practically am stopped."

Get it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lord Helpus
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:48 AM
<<<BUT, guess what, contrary to one post, no where in teh rules does it say that if you're teaching for free, but your barn takes out insurance on you for teaching, that THAT makes you a professional!>>>

Oh yes it does. If someone else pays for something from which you derive a benefit, then that is compensation. All compensation does not have to be in the form of actual $$. Just like getting feee board in exchange for teaching. That = compensation even though no money changes hands.

Jen West
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:58 AM
to teach and train horses- the amatures who are riding other peoples horses in competition ARE training those horses, but when last read the rules re: amature status (it has been many many years, but now I have to go re-read them!) NOBODY was allowed to be paid. That means that if an amature is taking classes for a trainer who is doing three lessons a week for students, then that trainer still needs to do the three lessons a week and anything the amature does is above and beyond what the trainer is contracted for, and it ALSO means that lessons from the amature cannot be contracted for as part of the training.

Moesha
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:02 AM
What about people who HAVE to work for their trainers, in order to have the money to show their one A/A horse or A/O horse?? There are many people who cannot afford to show unless they "work" some of it off. I am not saying the majority of you were crtiticizing this, but some people brought up the idea that ANY such compensation meant they were no longer amateurs.


Doesn't that blanket policy make the sport more elitist? The same ideals that so many here have criticized? I mean for some working off expenses is the only way they can afford to compete, yet they are not professionals in any manner.

Jen West
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:07 AM
isn't a very good excuse to my mind. I'm just getting back into hunters after ten or twelve years and I am SHOCKED at the number of new low divisions. I just about fell off my chair when I first heard "Pre-Children's." Please- when I was a youngster showing (more than ten or twelve years ago!) small pony hunters with itty bitty kids were doing children's and it wasn't an AHSA division.
3'9 is not very high- I would certainly expect anyone giving lessons in a show barn, amature or otherwise, to be able to show and show well at three nine. Most horses don't really jump anything much under three feet anyway, not after they've been doing it a couple of months.
I understand riders' trepidation at jumping larger obstacles- I was nervous getting back into jumping looking at two foot "speed-bumps," but that that passes, the horse jumps it a few times, figures out it's no big deal and the fences get raised. Before you know it, you're riding fences the horse has to actually jump, and that's what the hunter division is.

rileyt
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:12 AM
Your point is well taken... My understanding of the context of that comment was that the barn may, unbeknownst to Margaret, be paying insurance on her. In that situation, if Margaret doesn't know of, didn't ask for, (and assumably doesn't want) the insurance, then I don't believe she's deriving benefit in the sense of the rule.

havaklu
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:13 AM
JW you will find that the majority of amateur adults would never concieve of jumping ANYTHING larger than 3'.

Wait till your first show and you see 60+ 3' amateurs and barely enough Amy/Owners to fill the 3'6" division.

I agree with your sentiment - remember the saying "you can teach a COW to jump 4'" Well now adays that "cow" would be worth $100,00.00 as long as it would do it with an amateur on it's back.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Twister
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:20 AM
Moesha, barn work does not make you a professional. Teaching and/or riding and getting paid for it does NOT make you a professional.

My friend's barn had a raft of amateurs. There are usually other horses there who need to be ridden, so often after a lesson, they get other things to ride, as well. They are not paid. They are not professionals.

Dementia 13
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:23 AM
As a gentle reminder to people who eloquently find excuses to teach, train and act as a sales agent while asserting their right to show in the amateur ring, a euphemism is just a softer Fu$#You-ism. And the rules are there for you "special people with special circumstances" too. After all, aren't we all "special"?
_____________________________________________

I do get your point, Terri. Thank you and everyone else for your input.

And hard though it appears for many of you to believe, I really didn't think I was doing anything wrong, since I did not get paid nor did I barter anything else for teaching.

However, since this error has been gently and not-so-gently pointed out to me, I think it is time to hand in my notice and find another way to occupy myself on Saturdays.

Okay? Are we all clear on that? Oh and I am sure that Ms. S will have no problem filling in on me, since she is so dedicated to teaching herself.

Now, can we all take a collective breath and get back to really serious topics like show bows and monograms?

Jen West
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:27 AM
not be doing work that the trainer is being paid to do- as long as NO ONE is getting compensated for the teaching and riding, and as someone else pointed out, you are not getting compensated for other duties ands also teaching and riding for free...
If you "have" to give lessons for your trainer to pay for your training, then you are not an amature.
Hey, I gave western lessons to kids who had never been on a horse and rode auction horses for ten dollars a ride a few years ago, and while I was an adult beginner (again) in my over fences classes, I wasn't an amature and I didn't even try it. I haven't taught or rode for others for a couple of years now, and I am again an amature in the AHSA, but because I buy and sell horses, I am not an amature in the eyes of the ApHC or the APHA or the AQHA, whose amature rules I personally find very restrictive.
It would be nice to have the income from a few lessons here and there and to maybe bring in one outside horse to cover my monthlies, but if I do, I will not be eligible to show hunters and jumpers (or dressage or event) as an amature, and it's just not worth it to me.
I think it's reprehensible that so many people scoff the rules and are actually a bit self-righteous about it; if they were truly "giving back" they would volunteer in a handicapped program or give free clinics to 4-Hers.
To me, the embarassment of being caught breaking the rules would be enough to keep me from even trying. Clearly that's not enough for some.

ponyjumper4
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:31 AM
There are not enough lower divisions for those who have no choice but to turn pro if they want to show at all. 3'9" may not seem high to you, but it may to some, but that is besides the point. The rules are based on money so much that it severely limits what anyone can do. I've been at a schooling barn my whole life, and fortunately I bought a nice pony a long time ago that I could take to an A show (very, very rarely, I just can't afford it) and could be competitive with. But these farms have not really had anything that could be competitive even at 3'6", some at 3' so my experience is very limited in that respect. However, I am certainly competent enough to school or hack these horses and ponies that these students ride to keep them in shape, or up to speed, yet I can't even receive any decrease in my board or lessons without becoming a professional---how ridiculous is that? I'm at a schooling barn where most of these animals will hardly show above 2'6". I can't afford to pay and now I can't even work off PART of an expense without being a "so-called" professional. That's why it should be based on experience, level of showing, etc. or perhaps the amount of money made per year from horses (i dunno, just a thought). It does make it more elitist and at times makes it impossible for anyone to move in. I didn't think that's what it was about.

rileyt
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:35 AM
What a shame. Unless I've missed a post on this discussion, I don't think Margaret has done anything wrong. If the situation truly is as she has represented, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then she is within the rules. To stop teaching only deprives her students of a good teacher. She'll still be riding in the amature division. Just look at who the real loser is here? Who's to say she should forego teaching for free, and instead give lectures or help with handicapped riding? Not that these aren't great endeavors, but why should she have to not teach? Just to avoid the appearance of impropriety? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jen West
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:43 AM
and you know what? You CAN teach a cow to jump four feet- I wanted to put the winky guy here-

The old farts and week-end warriors aren't the ones that are violating the amature rules, I don't think. I certainly hope not.

I have been gone a long time and I haven't been going to recognized shows at all yet (three young children- no time no time). I've been looking at class lists, though, and I sure wish that's what they looked like when I was a kid on a pony! I think the NWHC (Northwest Horse Counsel) even gives year-end awards in the trot-a-course. I don't think anyone should even BE in trot-a-course for a year.

Jen West
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:52 AM
to face up through this and I also think that you are doing the right thing changing what you do with your Saturdays.
If you like to teach, why not volunteer in the 4-H program? I would say Pony Club, but the PC in general gets a lot of good help- 4-H can be pretty misguided at times, being an agricultural and not an equestrian organization. Someone also posted about many wonderful riding programs for disadvantaged youngsters- that would be great to do too.
Or you could volunteer to come ride my horses, and I promise I wouldn't pay you a dime!

Flash44
Feb. 5, 2001, 08:56 AM
Why do you have to teach lessons to earn enough money to show your A/A or A/O horse? Why can't you just learn to braid or do something else well? At least braiders don't have to carry insurance.

If you are so fed up with the shamateurs in the AHSA, don't show AHSA. There are enough "real" amateurs out there that we could make a pretty big difference in the pockets of show managers if we did not go to those shows.

To play the game, you almost have to "cheat." If you are good enough to school horses and teach lessons, should you be competing as an amateur? If you horse is often ridden by a pro and often ridden in a schooling division before your division, is it really an "amateur" horse? If so, why can't you ride it? People have lost sight of the actual purpose of competition - to practice, work hard, improve, and regularly go up against others in a show to see how much progress they are making. Instead, they are only focused on that tri color or zone award.

havaklu
Feb. 5, 2001, 09:22 AM
If you have a photo of a cow jumping - Please do start a thread and post the picture!!

Are you familiar with the new Bigearbloods???

They are all the rage with the Virginia amateurs!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , Nudge, Nudge

Merry
Feb. 5, 2001, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"People have lost sight of the actual purpose of competition..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, Flash, and some people have also lost sight of the inherent spirit of what an "amateur" is: someone who participates in a particular activity merely for the "love" of that activity, not for monetary gain.

Part of the problem with the amateur rule is it contains so many phrases separated by ";" that it's mind-boggling to read. Many years ago, the rule was much simpler: an amateur could not derive their primary income from training, giving lessons or showing. It's because of the people who knew how to work the system that all the additional phrases had to be added to the rule.

In a perfect world, the spirit or intent of the questionable amateur would be evaluated. Certainly there's a distinction between a competitor from the 2'3" Rusty Stirrup division giving a few lunge line lessons vs. an "amateur" who schools a trainer's clients & horses at shows, and then gets a monetary stipend for, ah, "barn chores".

As I posted before, comments have been made to me, alleging that I'm not an amateur. Well, I made it abundantly clear that in every aspect of the rule I am indeed an amateur. So that has stopped. Still, I'm more wary of creating the wrong perception. I've passed up a lot of $ in sales comissions; I've refused earning extra $ giving lessons for my trainer when she's on vacation; I do not receive reduced day care fees at shows in exchange for the times I might exercise a horse in my trainer's barn. Does this make it tougher, financially, on me to compete? Like, duh! But if I'm going to play, it has to be by the rules.

Spunky
Feb. 5, 2001, 11:12 AM
for saying what I wanted do!

MargaretF, I do not believe that you are violating the letter of the rules. Although I don't like the idea of the barn getting paid for all the work you do! Can you find just one kid to mentor? That might be more rewarding than teaching a bunch of different ones. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Someone posted that you are violating the INTENT of the rules. I don't believe that, either.

And really, WHAT IS the intent of the rule?? Because I sure can't figure out what it is. All we have to go by is the letter.

elizabeth
Feb. 5, 2001, 11:20 AM
The way I read the article of the AHSA rules that defines who is an amatuer, it *DOES* permit MargaretF to teach . . . as long as she is not receiving renumeration. "Renumeration" includes free board and gifts over $300.

Am I missing something?

Spunky
Feb. 5, 2001, 11:29 AM
Frankly, by the letter of the rule, I too am a professional! And yes, I WILL thumb my nose to that! Good grief!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

havaklu
Feb. 5, 2001, 11:40 AM
Free board is not considered a "token" of appreciation -

The tokens of appreciation are things like when the owner buys an amateur lunch because they rode one of their "string" in the U/S.

Lord Helpus
Feb. 5, 2001, 11:45 AM
<<<<I can't afford to pay and now I can't even work off PART of an expense without being a "so-called" professional.>>>>

NOT TRUE! You can drive the van, braid, groom, etc. etc. You can do ANYTHING in the whole wide world but make money off your skill as a rider/trainer. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO DEAL WITH?

And, as for there not being enough 3' divisions???? How about Low, pre-green, schooling, baby green, special hunter.

If you make money (or receive compensation in any form) that exceeds $300, the THE ONLY divisions you cannot ride in are the Amateur ones.

Seems to me that it is not lack of divisions to ride in. It is lack of divisions with not-very-good-competition that is the problem for the complainers. If so, if you cannot compete at an A show given all the divisions available to you, then maybe your skills should be honed at the B level, instead of cheating at the A level.

Showing is elitist. It requires money. All of us on this BB have more money that 95% of the population in the world. All of us on the BB are elitist. I have more money than others on the board. I sure as heck have a lot less than 99.9% of the people showing at Wellington and Indio this week. We all exist along a spectrum. As you pull on your TS and $400 GP coat and $600 custom Vogels, go ahead, complain that you cannot afford to show at the A level without working. Maybe SOMEONE out there will feel sorry for you.

One time I was in NYC with Joe Fargis. He was bitching about not having money and being poor (because he was comparing himself to his clients who had megabucks). I said, "Joe, don't you think that the other people you see on the subway, when you ride it downtown, would love to have as much money as you have?" He looked at me in shock and said: "Pam, I NEVER ride the subway, it is unsafe. I take cabs." We both cracked up--- we realized how narrow our focus had gotten, living in the H/J world.

And to MargaretF, I am glad you are stopping "giving back". Your students will be well served by a paid professional whose money you were earning but not receiving.

Dementia 13
Feb. 5, 2001, 12:07 PM
And to MargaretF, I am glad you are stopping "giving back". Your students will be well served by a paid professional whose money you were earning but not receiving.
________________________________________

Thanks Pam, I will take that comment in the positive spirit I am sure it was intended.

I am certain that the kids will be happy to have Miss S back as a teacher, since she was the original Saturday teacher at the barn.

grizzley
Feb. 5, 2001, 12:51 PM
Talking about different riding programs where you could help out, a barn I know in Maryland does a community service riding lesson program 4 times a year for the kids in their parks and recreation district. This is Clay Hill and Emmie Prettyman. She has been "giving back" to the community for 30 years and has never even been acknowledged since she is a professional horsewoman. I just happened to be there on a Saturday two years ago looking at a horse for sale when 12 little kiddies arrived for their first hands-on lesson for which she donates her facility, her horses and her time. Her Saturday students all help out tacking up and since I was just standing around, so did I, plus some leading and help mounting. When I came back home, I felt great, remembering the smiles and excitedness but I think I'm still an amateur and although if a barn around here did this, I might volunteer for this type of program, I don't think "teaching classes" every Saturday allows anyone to claim amateur status. And no, this is not sour grapes!
I happen to show in the over 50 so how many of us are there? Not a whole lot and almost all are really amateurs either by virtue of experience or that old thing, age (stiffness, pain in joints, lack of time, etc).
Note to MargaretF - Maybe you could get your barn to let you do a program like that too and you could help out. Since they wouldn't get paid for the lessons, using the program as sort of an Open House experience with Horses to expose the kids, it might be the solution to your problems. I am sure anyone as dedicated as you will find an outlet that works, both for you and your amateur status. Good luck!

Janet
Feb. 5, 2001, 01:12 PM
seems to be largely a hunter/jumper thing.

In eventing SOME events have separate divisions for amateurs (though I think when we did, it didn't fill, and we had to combine it anyway). Some dressage shows have classes restricted to amateurs, but they are by no means commonplace.

And if there is an amateur class, there is always (or almost always) an exactly analogous non-amateur class, where the only difference is who you are competing against.

Therefore there is (or at least seems to be) much less incentive to "preserve" your amateur status.

For instance, my sister (who only events) gets a commission for helping friends sell about one horse a year. When I told her that there was a proposed rule change that would make that a "non-amateur" activity, her attitude was "Oh, well, I guess I'll be a pro then. No big deal."

Maybe what is needed in the hunters is a 3'6" "open" (not restricted to amateurs) division. There already are plenty of 3' unrestricted divisions.

gogogirl
Feb. 5, 2001, 02:11 PM
I believe you have mistaken me for someone you know and against whom, apparently, you harbor ill will. My AHSA "house" is spotless as I have never competed and, at my age, don't have the ability (or interest) to start. I simply watch these boards (and a variety of others) in the hopes of learning something as I host a "sanctuary" of sorts which includes (among other unwanted creatures) two older "pasture ornaments" with varying degrees of infirmity -- both of whom will never see the inside of a show ring unless I were to show them a picture from a magazine. I maintain a copy of AHSA rules only because membership is a requirement for my equine mortality/theft insurance through Equisure. Sorry to disappoint you!

Catchrider
Feb. 5, 2001, 02:14 PM
As my name implies, I'm a frequent catchrider in the adult divisions. I've certainly had my share of questionable looks and probably more than a few people wonder about my scenario because I ride many different horses. But appearances sometimes speak louder than words. Truthfully, I'm so far down on the economy plan that I think my trainers find horses for me so they don't have to witness my depression when I'm horseless.

But appearances can't be denied, and are one of the major problems. If you're even moderately successful in the adult or amateur divisions, others will begin to search for a reason to fault you. Having been around for awhile, I do know of a few riders in my position (economically challenged) who do take advantage. They "groom" at shows for their trainers but funny how I come out to hack my horse at 5 a.m. and see them ride horse after horse in the back rings. When do they have time to rub or bathe a horse?

I do believe the amateur rules need to be scrutinized again. This year's ammendment certainly will help get a few shamateurs out of the ring, or at least make them a bit poorer so perhaps they might have to work like the rest of us who have full-time jobs and families.

And perhaps that's one of the reasons for the furor over MargaretF's position. We're all just frustrated and angered by those who read between the rules and don't follow them. There are many, many ways to make additional money so you can show. But when you ride or teach to do it, you're not an amateur. Allow the true amateurs to have a place. Maybe some people have lost the real meaning of showing--to have fun! Regularly beating people like me can't be all that satisfying after awhile! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dementia 13
Feb. 5, 2001, 02:34 PM
And perhaps that's one of the reasons for the furor over MargaretF's position. We're all just frustrated and angered by those who read between the rules and don't follow them. There are many, many ways to make additional money so you can show. But when you ride or teach to do it, you're not an amateur.
_____________________________________________

Why is it so darn hard for you guys to believe that I like teaching, didn't take money or barter and truly didn't think I was doing anything wrong? If you must know, my father's trust fund pays for my riding and showing, not that it is anyone's business how I pay for my riding but since you guys feel the need to dissect every single particle of this issue, there it is for God and everyone to see.

I don't need to braid or muck stalls or teach or do anything else to support my habit, and I happen to have a great job, a husband who makes a good income and no kids. Would you guys like to see copies of my board checks or how about my tax returns?

At first I was amused, now I am annoyed, and I don't mean to single you out, Catchrider -- it isn't really directed at you personally, I am just frustrated. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

halfhalt
Feb. 5, 2001, 02:40 PM
Here in Canada the debate is often not only about amateur vs pro, but an in-between category known as "non-pro"..does that category exist in the States, and if so, how is it interpreted? In Canada, many of the situations described here (working students, catch riders, etc) would get lumped under the non-pro category...even some trainers, if the cheques are made out to the barn/stable and not to them as individuals...there's much concern about this latter situation, as you can imagine...!

ponyjumper4
Feb. 5, 2001, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> NOT TRUE! You can drive the van, braid, groom, etc. etc. You can do ANYTHING in the whole wide world but make money off your skill as a rider/trainer. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO DEAL WITH? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, sure, if I was at a show barn, where those services were needed, I could do that, but guess what I'm not. I'm at a very small schooling barn. My pony has never even seen a van. Plus I'm only 18 and in college, I get to go home on the weekends and that is it. During the summer is the best time for me to ride and yes I would like to be able to work off some lessons or a portion of my board by mucking stalls or schooling the school horses. Oh but wait, if I can school a horse than I should be a professional. Oh please. Anybody that can ride a horse over a 3'6" course aught to be able to school a horse showing at a level below that. And if you can't do that, then maybe "you shouldn't be at the A shows".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All of us on this BB have more money that 95% of the population in the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I wish that was true. You try living in a family where 50% of the income comes from tobacco, in which case if you haven't heard, continues to decrease at an ever increasing rate. I'm doing all I can just to go to C shows (and that doesn't happen very often either), even though my skill level along with my pony's is beyond that.

Man, I'm getting too upset, I think I'm gonna stop for now.

stephanie
Feb. 5, 2001, 03:23 PM
margaret... your situation has obviously touched a nerve here, but try not to take it personally. it sounds to me like you are *not* in violation of the rules, since you are not getting compensated, and i hope you wouldn't give up your teaching because of the anger you've encountered here... i say, do what you want...

Darden
Feb. 5, 2001, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't take it personally either, MargaretF. People can be very jealous when it comes to money and horses. Keep your chin up.

wileycoyote
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:33 PM
I think you must be one of the lucky ones, but if you find you are just aching to "volunteer", y'all come on down here! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Palisades
Feb. 5, 2001, 07:43 PM
I think that the AHSA has gone overboard in trying to seperate the amateurs from the professionals. It is clear that there is a problem, but the rules in place do not seem to be helping. Instead, they are forcing some people who truly are amateurs to either compete against the rules or turn pro.

Here's a scenario (bear in mind that I am Canadian and have limited understanding of the AHSA rules)... let's say I lived down in the States and competed as a junior. When I turned 18, I would no longer be allowed to work off my board and still occasionally hack a horse for my coach; I could not help my friend warm up while my coach was gone by giving her a few tips (even if we were the same level of rider and she was just nervous); I could not work as a vet at the barn I rode horses at. Am I the only one thinking this is ridiculous?

I do recognize the problem. I do agree that something must be done. But I think the AHSA needs to recognize a difference between professionals and capable amateurs.

Catchrider
Feb. 6, 2001, 06:51 AM
I actually titled that response appearances because it appeared that you were breaking the rule. In actuality, it sounds as if you are the exception. Nevertheless, Miss S and others had different thoughts. I referred to your position in starting this thread, not breaking the amateur rule, because there are SOOO many others who do in fact cheat the system. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post.

C.R.

Jumphigh83
Feb. 6, 2001, 07:27 AM
Why not do away with the Amateur division altogether and just do adults...not amateur adults...or pro adults...just adults?? That would remove the incentive to fudge the rules and everyone with a birth certificate could be either a junior OR an adult..problem solved. Then you could each train (or not) and not worry about looking over your shoulder for rules violations, cheating, complying etc....Then the field would be more level.....

Robby Johnson
Feb. 6, 2001, 08:09 AM
Not "renumeration."

Carry on.

RJ