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Littlebopeep
Apr. 1, 2002, 08:41 PM
I also asked this on the Horse Care BB, but thought I'd ask here too.

Last year at Indio I heard that some trainers were giving their hunters a shot called "Red Shot" to make them quiet and it doesn't test. Does anyone know what this is exactly?

Littlebopeep
Apr. 1, 2002, 08:41 PM
I also asked this on the Horse Care BB, but thought I'd ask here too.

Last year at Indio I heard that some trainers were giving their hunters a shot called "Red Shot" to make them quiet and it doesn't test. Does anyone know what this is exactly?

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 1, 2002, 08:56 PM
ya, thats a little...uh.... sketchy and very un-ok

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Littlebopeep
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:02 PM
First of all... I didn't say I was going to administer anything! I simply wanted to know what it was.

Second of all... Administering something to make a horse more quiet that is legal isn't cheating! It's no different than lunging a horse for 2-3 hours, or some of the other inhumane things trainers do to quiet a horse such as tying it's head up all night, taking away it's water or feed, giving it Dex, etc.

You should't be so naive. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make sure your horse is perfect for you when you show that you have no idea about obviously.

Alex Pakzad
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:04 PM
The shot you of thinking of is called HUNTER ROUND... it is generally legal I believe.

Royal Blue
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:05 PM
Is that the real name or code name /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Alex Pakzad
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:09 PM
That is just what it's called... HUNTER ROUND, but I'm sure there is some other complicated name for it. But the only name I have heard for hunter round is hunter round.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Littlebopeep:

You should't be so naive. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make sure your horse is perfect for you when you show that you have no idea about obviously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you implying that our horses are drugged to make them go well? excuse me!!!!!!!
I work hard to get my horses in good condition, thank you! I don't need to have them drugged to be quiet! You also make is sound like we don't know anything about our horses! LIke we just get on and show like little princesses who don't work their own horses! you have no right and no idea! You shouldn't go around saying things about other people and their horses, unless they are nice things!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

goobergurl21
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:20 PM
you preach it PTDeaconHP! you shouldn't have to drug a horse to make them quiet anywayz! CLaire

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goobergurl21:
you preach it PTDeaconHP!CLaire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hahaha thanks claire!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Atypical
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:25 PM
Wow, I really don't think she was trying to imply that we here on the boards don't know our horses. Relax, breathe you know, lol.

I'd like to believe, and for the most part do believe, the seedy underbelly of the show world is in the minority, but I'm not going to altogether refute that it happens. I've never heard of hunter round before, but I knew people that used to soak that mornings grain in mint tea for the same effect.

If she does have a barn that drugs horses, or knows of people that do, well then that's too bad. Or even if she's just speaking in generalizations, well I think that's a little uh....ignorant, but let's just nmot blow this out of proportion.

Alex Pakzad
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:33 PM
Woa, chill. I think all LittleboPeep was saying is, yes there is drugging at the horse show, and that most people don't know that their horses are being drugged, if their horses are in fact being drugged. Not to mention the fact that hunter round is legal, and not really considered "drugging".

**Bolero**Hampton**Nicolina**

Littlebopeep
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:52 PM
I think that some of you are a little quick to jump to conclusions and pass judgment on others without all the facts.

I mearly posted a question here to find out some information, not to get a few panties in a wad.

NO, our barn does not drug or do inhumane things to our horses to get them to go well. I have, however, strolled down a few isles after hours and seen some pretty heinous things that I referred to. I was merely stating that a lot goes on when no one is around to make horses go well for the clients with or without the clients knowledge.

I also do not believe that administering drugs that are legal and in legal doses is cheating. If that were the case, then Regimate for mares, 2 grams of bute for soreness, banamine, Dex, Depro Provera, Ketafin, etc. would all be considered cheating and would be illegal by USAE standards.

You shouldn't be so quick to judge people on this board. Isn't this board here for people to ask questions and discuss things? If this is how people are treated on this board for posting questions, I don't think I will be back.

Thanks to those of you who answered my questions without harsh words.

Court@HJ-OH
Apr. 1, 2002, 09:56 PM
For goodness sakes calm down, no where in her post is she accusing you of anything!! And she is right, plenty of people drug their horses and a decent amount don't even know. My last trainer drugged my horse and I didn't know it til I was home from the show. While it was something that won't have showed up on a drug test I was furious. But he had to tell me for me to even know, so IT HAPPENS!!!

**Courtney**
Jack ~On the Rocks~ PLEASE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Momo ~Just My Luck~

A woman only needs two animals in her life.. the horse of her dreams and a jackass to pay for it!

Littlebopeep
Apr. 1, 2002, 10:25 PM
Thanks, Courtney. Your absolutely right.

Janet
Apr. 1, 2002, 10:37 PM
If it is given for the purpose of "making the horse more quiet" it is ILLEGAL under the USA Eq rules, regardless of whether or not there is a test for it. Any "mood or behaviour altering substance" is forbidden.

Cream Soda
Apr. 1, 2002, 11:10 PM
I have no idea if this is the red shot, however I know of a lot of barns that inject their horses with calcium shots on show days to make them quiet. I've seen the stuff and it looks like a dark orangish red. And yes I used to ride at a barn that took part in a lot of illegal drugging, a top show barn might I add and I'm very glad I am not a part of that anymore. It completely boggled my mind when I switched barns and people weren't injecting their horses tails and using immense amounts of bute and injecting every joint imaginable. I'm sure glad that I got out of that situation!

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 1, 2002, 11:11 PM
uh, well, we still don't know WHAT the stuff is here. Red Shot or Hunter Round sound like generic "street names" -- what is the active drug/herb/ingredient. Anyone know?

daytimedrama
Apr. 1, 2002, 11:18 PM
Hunter Round is the name of one type of shot, you can ony get it from a certain vet, it is made from *I think* a mix of herbs, it is legal and untestable. Or so I'm told.

~Christina~
"I don't patronize bunny rabbits!" -Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

Alex Pakzad
Apr. 1, 2002, 11:19 PM
I will try to find out, but all I know is when you ask the vet for this red shot, you ask for hunter round.

**Bolero**Hampton**Nicolina**

JulieMontgomery
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:02 AM
The operative word here is untestable.

Some folks worry that the goods will be testable. Others don't.

Usually, the reasons why are pretty transparent, huh?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Peggy
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:13 AM
My understanding of the USAEq rules is that any substance that can affect the performance of the horse is considered to be illegal--whether or not it is on an official "forbidden list." There is a special warning (in caps) about preparations, tonics, pastes and so on whose composition is not known.

An assortment of non-steroidal antiinflammatory drugs--bute, ketoprofen, banamine are allowed in certain amounts and combinations. Some other drugs (DMSO, hydrocortisone, arsenic(!) are also allowed in limited amounts. I don't see dexamethasone on any of the lists, but my understanding is that USAEq is planning to monitor it.

Have to admit that I'm curious about what's in the Red Shot.

Jamie Taylor
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:56 AM
Ok I don't know the exact formula, but hunter round has the vitamin B12, a good amount of Dex (like 80% or something), calcium, and maybe magnesium?? I don't know something that starts with a M. We don't use it at our barn, but I was back east and people were asking me about it, because you can only get it from a vet out here. It is supposed to work really well, I know of several horses that use it and go really well on it, although we've never used it at our barn. Its really no different from using dex I guess, I don't know though, I'm not so up on the drugs, since my horses don't use any of em.

Weatherford
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:27 AM
As has been discussed before - 80% DEX???? That is good for them???

I was discussing with a vet yesterday (since I am practically living at the clinic) how, perhaps the astonishing increase in cases of LYME's DX and EPM on the Show circuit may be directly related to the (over) use and abuse of Dex - which (for those who have missed the tirades on the subject) DEPRESSES THE IMMUNE SYSTEM - fine in small amounts if you have allergies, but what about warding off infection??

Someone I know and love lost her TOP Green WOrking Hunter a few years ago - it because "immune suppressed" and she didn't have a clue why. Then it FOUNDERED, also with no clue why. Well, guess what - those are classic symptoms of too much DEX. (YES this was a VERY important show barn.)

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Weatherford
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:36 AM
Lilbopeep - you should know by now that a simple question like yours IS going to create a MAJOR discussion - and since we haven't had this one in a few months, I say, let's chat!

Here are some of the previous threads:
Equine drugs at big "A" circuit barns (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=4703057034&m=4583026403&r=1623077403#1623077403)

Jimmy Torano suspended (and ensuing discussion of equine drug use and abuse) (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=4703057034&m=1963071613&r=3353081613#3353081613)

brilyntrip
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:54 AM
Finally someone comes out and states what I have known for AGES. DEX is a scary drug that certain folks abuse regularly thinking it will never come back and bite you in the A**.There are way too many horses showing with Dex in their systems.
I will jump down off my soap box now.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:15 AM
im sorry if I sounded really upset, but I wasn't really that badly! lol! Everyones telling me to chill, and its making me feel bad, lol! I was just a little angry, because it sounded like she was saying that our horses are drugged to make them "perfect" like we are people who just hop on and bop around. I didn't mean to sound that angry! I'm usually very fiesty, and i dont flip out easily, it wasnt supposed to sound that way...
I just wanted to say that so you don't all think i'm an oversensitive, fiesty, over-reacting person!hahaha I'm not! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Littlebopeep:
First of all... I didn't say I was going to administer anything! I simply wanted to know what it was. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Second of all... Administering something to make a horse more quiet that is legal isn't cheating! .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, yes, it *is*, by definition. Else why would "non-detectable" be an issue? Read the rules, dear.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It's no different than lunging a horse for 2-3 hours, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is. Longing, although stupid, is legal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>or some of the other inhumane things trainers do to quiet a horse such as tying it's head up all night, taking away it's water or feed, giving it Dex, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This argument is equivalent to saying that beating your child is ok, because it's not so bad as burning it with cigarettes.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You should't be so naive. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make sure your horse is perfect for you when you show that you have no idea about obviously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shouldn't be so jaded. There are a lot of people out there who haven't completely forgotten the concepts of sportsmanhip and horsemanship.
We're not all so bankrupt as you give the appearance of being.

Court@HJ-OH
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:55 AM
Someone metioned DMSO being illegal. My horse gets MSM which is an ingredient in DMSO. Would that be illegal for him to show on? My last horse had EPM and was on it, the vet said that it wasn't a bad thing for him to stay on it all the time even after EPM, so I ended up putting other horse on it! Good...bad, tell me????????

**Courtney**
Jack ~On the Rocks~ PLEASE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Momo ~Just My Luck~

A woman only needs two animals in her life.. the horse of her dreams and a jackass to pay for it!

wtywmn4
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:57 AM
Stay on that soap box brilyntrip!! It's needed.

And Weatherford, sorry you're living at the clinic /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Hopefully the results will be good.

We need to realize we are killing the creatures we love. Nothing is worth that, nothing.

Janet
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Second of all... Administering something to make a horse more quiet that is legal isn't cheating! It's no different than lunging a horse for 2-3 hours, or some of the other inhumane things trainers do to quiet a horse such as tying it's head up all night, taking away it's water or feed, giving it Dex, etc.

You should't be so naive. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make sure your horse is perfect for you when you show that you have no idea about obviously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, if what Jamie says is true (no reason to doubt it), it pretty much IS the same as giving it Dex.

Second, quite a few of us have our own barns, so we know pretty much intimnately everything that goes into (and comes out of) our horses.

levremont
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:08 AM
I have never been one to use drugs ( other than to treat something when needed of course). Now one of my geldings has been put on Regumate by my vet( 10cc a day) because he was acting studly at home (in turnout by himself but aggressive to other gelding over the fence if a mare was "in"). He is going to start showing at the A's in a couple of weeks he is just five... I do not want to be showing a horse that is "drugged". So a/ would that be considered drugged, the way I read the rules it would? b/ why would a vet knowing that the horse is a show horse not mention that? c/ since I can't imagine him being a problem at shows, I could take him off it and put vicks in his nose just in case, right? Will it still be detectable in a drug test since he is a gelding?

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:30 AM
Giving a horse a drug to change him is MUCH worse than riding or longing for a long time to get him/her quiet!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

SGray
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:41 AM
z Article 410. Equine Drugs and Medications, The Therapeutic Substance Provisions.

1. No horse and/or pony competing in a Breed or Discipline designated as (or part of) a Therapeutic Substance Group is to be shown in any class at a competition recognized by the Federation (see also Art. 402.1, last sentence) if it has been administered in any manner or otherwise contains in its tissues, body fluids or excreta a forbidden substance except as provided in Art. 411. Any horse and/or pony that competes in more than one Breed, Discipline, and/or Group at a competition, one of which is a No Foreign Substance Group, shall be required to be in compliance with the No Foreign Substance Provisions at all times while competing in any and/or all classes and/or divisions at that competition. For purposes of this rule, a forbidden substance is: BOD 1/14/01 Effective immediately

a) Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances which stimulate or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as expressly permitted by this rule.

------ so if it is intended to "make them quiet" as Littlebopeep stated then it is by definition illegal according to my reading of this rule

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sallylou:
I have never been one to use drugs ( other than to treat something when needed of course). Now one of my geldings has been put on Regumate by my vet( 10cc a day) because he was acting studly at home (in turnout by himself but aggressive to other gelding over the fence if a mare was "in"). He is going to start showing at the A's in a couple of weeks he is just five... I do not want to be showing a horse that is "drugged". So a/ would that be considered drugged, the way I read the rules it would? b/ why would a vet knowing that the horse is a show horse not mention that? c/ since I can't imagine him being a problem at shows, I could take him off it and put vicks in his nose just in case, right? Will it still be detectable in a drug test since he is a gelding?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that under a strict interpretation of the spirit of the rule, Regumate *would* be prohibited. However, since it is allowed in mares, where it certainly alters behavior, I don't see how one can argue that it is less ethical to give to geldings (or stallions, for that matter.) I'd certainly prefer not to have a horse on the stuff, for a variety of reasons, among them the hazards associated with handling it. Might not be a bad idea to try the horse without it.

Janet
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:18 AM
Under a strict interpretation of the rules, Regumate would be illegal for mares too, if it were given to change behavior.

But this isn't just "untestable" because the chemistry isn't good enough, it is "untestable" because
a) It is anormal part of the horse's body chenistry
b) Different horses produce different amounts
c) It would be (theoretically as well as practially) impossible to determine IF and WHY the mare had been given regumate.

[This message was edited by Janet on Apr. 02, 2002 at 11:33 AM.]

beringer
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:20 AM
I know of many "A" circuit trainers who, if the horse is excited at the warm ups, will tell the rider, "don't worry, your horse will be quiet tomorrow." I've also heard that whatever they are using doesn't test. I'm curious, too, as what it is. I can't imagine telling my vet, "oh by the way...." What is in it?

tle
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:27 AM
FWIW, PTDeaconHP, I would have reacted the exact same way and read the post to you exactly the same as you did.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 5 recap ... Why do they chose people who don't want to play the game, to play the game?!! UGH!! Pick me next time... I'll last longer than Gabe did!

Emanon
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:28 AM
I think everyone is getting a little judgemental. We humans take things to make us better all the time (stronger, more stable, increase our metabolism, better our immune system, keep us from getting pregnant, etc.) Why, in this age of better medicine would'nt we do the same for our animals and animal athletes? I give my dog stuff to stop itching or keep from getting fleas - does that make me bad for chemically changing my dog? I give my horse stuff to aid his joints or keep from getting parasites or strengthening his stifles (I've chemically enhanced him) does that make me bad??? No - this is the modern world and reality and YOUR CHOICE. That is why the AHSA has a drug committee - to control it and make sure no one gets out of control. Again, IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

MKM
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:55 AM
The fact that this is even an issue worth discussing makes me wonder whether I'd ever want to get back into the H/J world.

Duffy
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:02 AM
Well, I show and I'd never heard of this one!

Colin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:04 AM
...dex, yes....practically everyone uses that. But haven't heard of this?????

I feed my young horses oyster shells for calcium. Not to make them quiet, but help them grow strong. How would calcium make them quiet????

dublin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:09 AM
The vet who distributes this stuff must be quite popular in certain circles.... I'm sure Dr. Lengyel of USAEq Drugs and Medications would love to know who it is! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

tle
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I feed my young horses oyster shells for calcium. Not to make them quiet, but help them grow strong. How would calcium make them quiet????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about horses, but when I started eventing, my nerves (especially before dressage) were so amazingly bad... it wasn't pretty. I was told to take some chewable calcium during my warmup. Some kind of effect on my stomach and those d@mn butterflies, or some such. Either way, they helped. At least now the butterflies are flying in formation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 5 recap ... Why do they chose people who don't want to play the game, to play the game?!! UGH!! Pick me next time... I'll last longer than Gabe did!

Colin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dublin:
The vet who distributes this stuff must be quite popular in certain circles.... I'm sure Dr. Lengyel of USAEq Drugs and Medications would love to know who it is! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Sounds like all of the drugs in the shot are legal.

Hummm....Colin thinks her filly needs much much more of the calcium -- for her bones, of course... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
I don't know about horses, but when I started eventing, my nerves (especially before dressage) were so amazingly bad... it wasn't pretty. I was told to take some chewable calcium during my warmup. Some kind of effect on my stomach and those d@mn butterflies, or some such. Either way, they helped. At least now the butterflies are flying in formation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, Calcium like soothes you...they say to take it if you have a stomach ache or if you're nervous...

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

Duffy
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:26 AM
Learn something new every day. And here I thought my doctor suggested those vitamins for my physical well being! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dublin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:33 AM
Because it is against the USAEq rules, Colin, like has been mentioned by a number of posters.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If it was legal, why all the secrecy, and comments about it being untestable?? The drugs themselves may be legal, but the intent behind the injection certainly doesn't seem to be. Having read through the Drugs and Medications section of the USAEq rulebook, Janet's quoted statement definitely appears to apply to this situation....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it is given for the purpose of "making the horse more quiet" it is ILLEGAL under the
USA Eq rules, regardless of whether or not there is a test for it. Any "mood or behaviour
altering substance" is forbidden. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by dublin on Apr. 02, 2002 at 12:46 PM.]

Skipper
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:34 AM
if I remember correctly, you can do a lot of damage but messing with the body's calcium:phosphorus ratio. So how much Ca would be too much?? (and I'm NOT asking because I'm thinking about doing it, just curious)

BarbB
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
...dex, yes....practically everyone uses that. But haven't heard of this?????

I feed my young horses oyster shells for calcium. Not to make them quiet, but help them grow strong. How would calcium make them quiet????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmm....no....'everyone' does not use dex.
But if you tell yourself that 'everyone' is doing something, you probably won't ask yourself why you are doing it or if it is a good idea.

Calcium can/does have a calming effect on the nervous system. Calcium does more than build strong bones, it is a vital component in the entire metabolism.

BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Colin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dublin:
Because it is against the USAEq rules, Colin, like has been mentioned by a number of posters.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If it was legal, why all the secrecy, and comments about it being untestable??

Quote: " If it is given for the purpose of "making the horse more quiet" it is ILLEGAL under the
USA Eq rules, regardless of whether or not there is a test for it. Any "mood or behaviour
altering substance" is forbidden. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Dublin...I don't give my horse Dex to make him quiet! My lordy!!!!! Never!!! He has to get dex to keep him from breaking out in hives...he gets a little nervous and tends to break out. I think it's that way for most of the show horses....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

dublin
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:47 AM
Got it, Colin! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:52 AM
I'm thinking it's probably a good thing I'm a crappy rider with just an OK horse about now...

I knew that some of the A trainers used drugs -- often a lot of them, sometimes ones used "off label" for purposes of altering behavior -- and found that unconscionable. But now I hear that horses are being injected with substances that people don't even KNOW what's in them??????

How does this happen? I'm not being sarcastic -- I want to know. Do the trainers just do this and not tell the owners? If they do, do they eat the cost of the drugs/injections in their training fees? If a bill for "medications" is given, does it list the medications? If so, do the owners ask why/when and so forth? Could an owner state in writing "do not give my horse any feed, supplement, drug or medication without my permission except in the following circumstances (list some needed for medical emergencies like colic)" and have that hold up?

I'm having a hard time getting this -- how can people own horses and let them be shot up and not be concerned? Heck, I'm arguing with my trainer right now because my farrier and I won't put aluminum shoes on my OTTB since his feet are not yet of sufficient quality that the benefits outweigh the risks of losing shoes, wiggling, heel support loss, etc!

Atypical
Apr. 2, 2002, 11:05 AM
Ok, you're going to have to excuse me here for a brief shadow of a moment. I haven't trained a an A barn in six years, and I'm not sure if they ever drugged their horses, I wouldn't presume. And I was just a kid then. (okay I still am a kid sort of, 18, just a lot less naive) Anyway, what is Dex exactly? WE don't have it around our barn now, and I know because I know where we keep all our meds. SO???

The only other thignI would say is that this shot we're talking about may be all natural, I don't know for sure. BUt when you start getting into the INTENT of the administration of the drug, like legal Drug A given for illness in one horse, and Drug A given for a calming effect in another horse, I think you start to walk that thin line of hypocracy. If we start judging people based on their intent, we've stepped into a huge gray area here. But that's just MHO.

dublin
Apr. 2, 2002, 11:23 AM
Since everyone states this injection is given for it's calming effect, not for therapeutic treatment of an illness, I really don't see any "gray area" in this particular instance.

JinxyFish313
Apr. 2, 2002, 11:29 AM
I've gotten bills from big horse shows and my trainer will have listed "Medication" as a charge...knowing that that particular horse normally did not require any "medication" i asked my trainer and he simply explained that the horse was psychotic one of the days when he showed him so he gave him Drug X (i forget wat it was). Its common practice for trainers w/clients on full service to take it upon them selves to medicate a horse, thats part of the full service. I trust my trainer to do watever he thinks is best, and knowing that half the show circuit does the same thing, i dont mind it @ all and that DOES include illegal drugs. I've trained w/lots of BNTs who's opinions I trust and if they use illegal drugs sometimes, so be it, and as someone else said, a lot of these drugs are only illegal depending on the intent, and thats a ridiculous, not provable thing to judge by. My family has been around this business forever and thats how things are, performance altering drugs are part of the scene. I accept it & dont mind it, thats JMHO (ie- no need 2 jump down my throat).

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

elizabeth
Apr. 2, 2002, 11:52 AM
Slim and others:

Forgive my stupidity, but is it really not possible for a trainer to get in the irons on a pumped-up horse and just ride it out?

That is to say, don't most horses who are crazy at a show generally settle down with work and things to both focus them and tire them a bit? Or are there some horses for whom drugging is the only option?

Thanks.

JinxyFish313
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:13 PM
Sure, riding it out is always an option and something I usually do when I'm showing. Altho I have known many horses and many cases wheres its just a state of mind that the horse is in, not an extra energy reserve shining through. Even at home, sometimes theyre just "AHH!" and won't settle...lol I wish somebody would giv ME a shot sometimes (jk)

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
FWIW, PTDeaconHP, I would have reacted the exact same way and read the post to you exactly the same as you did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks tle /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Liverpool
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:17 PM
The poster who quoted the rule covering intent (ie, any substance given to alter a horse's behavior rather than for a legitimate therapeutic purpose) is absolutely correct. Such substances are illegal and constitute cheating - though of course whether that can be proven or not is another matter entirely.

People who don't mind giving their horses drugs to make them quiet (as opposed to say, training them...) so that they have a better chance of winning certainly are widespread. That doesn't make it right, and frankly makes me SICK. And it is one of the main reasons why we will probably someday all be living under the FEI (no foreign substance) rules.

I used to be opposed to that, thinking of the campaigners who are more comfortable in their jobs with a little bute at the end of a long day on hard ground... but now I'm not so sure. It is becoming tougher and tougher to compete against horses whose "perfect" hunter rounds are as much the result of a needle as they are training and decent riding. "Dex" isn't exactly a harmless substance - for those who give it without a second thought, or allow it to be given... have you considered the health consequences to your horse long term? It ain't a pretty picture.

I love riding hunters, and although I miss the days of showing a spirited horse across an outside course - where they were allowed to show a little enthusiasm for their jobs - I still find them endlessly interesting and a huge challenge now that they are basically confined to a ring. If I lose some classes because my horse is not absolutely "dead" quiet compared to those that have been drugged into their own private twilight zone, that is ok with me. I don't care to ride one that isn't "all there" (and I put "taking the edge off") in the category of NOT ALL THERE - and I am of the opinion that if one is a little too fresh, you can always <gasp> get on and ride it a bit til it settles.

<end of rant>

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHW:
I think everyone is getting a little judgemental. We humans take things to make us better all the time (stronger, more stable, increase our metabolism, better our immune system, keep us from getting pregnant, etc.) Why, in this age of better medicine would'nt we do the same for our animals and animal athletes? I give my dog stuff to stop itching or keep from getting fleas - does that make me bad for chemically changing my dog? I give my horse stuff to aid his joints or keep from getting parasites or strengthening his stifles (I've chemically enhanced him) does that make me bad??? No - this is the modern world and reality and YOUR CHOICE. That is why the AHSA has a drug committee - to control it and make sure no one gets out of control. Again, IT IS YOUR CHOICE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theres a difference in giving vitamins and stuff to make tendons stronger, or legs less stiff, and drugs that make horses calm or alter them in some way... Stuff to make fleas die and kill other parasites is very ok, but a drug to make a horse quiet isn't

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Under a strict interpretation of the rules, Regumate would be illegal for mares too, if it were given to change behavior.

But this isn't just "untestable" because the chemistry isn't good enough, it is "untestable" because
a) It is anormal part of the horse's body chenistry
b) Different horses produce different amounts
c) It would be (theoretically as well as practially) impossible to determine IF and WHY the mare had been given regumate.

[This message was edited by Janet on Apr. 02, 2002 at 11:33 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it is *not* cross reactive with progesterone, of which it is a synthetic analogue, so it would be distinguishable.

It is not normal body chemisty, anymore than exogenous anabolic steroids or corticosteroids are.

As above, it could be determines if a mare were given Regumate. As for why, it wouldn't matter, if it were acknowledged that it does indeed change behavior. You can't show a horse under the influence of tranqulizers or local anesthetics, even if they are given for a good reason.

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:34 PM
As for calcium in injectable form folks, it is not an entirely benign drug--it can cause a fatal cardiac arrythmia, which is why one always monitors the heart with a stethescope when administering it for an actual therapeutic reason.

Janet
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:37 PM
Interesting.

That would mean that the (legitimate) reason they don't test for it would only be that there is no general agreement that it affects behavior.

lawgrl
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Slim Shady: a lot of these drugs are only illegal depending on the intent, and thats a ridiculous, not provable thing to judge by <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Atypical: If we start judging people based on their intent, we've stepped into a huge gray area here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, basically our entire criminal justice system is based on intent (aka mens rea). There are very few crimes that are "strict liability" (meaning that intent is irrelevant).

Granted that proving intent is sometimes difficult--it's often inferred from circumstances rather than direct evidence but if we can judge murderers based on intent, I'm fairly confident that we can apply the same standard to horse shows! JMHO, of course.

JinxyFish313
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:50 PM
im just curious how someone could prove wat a person's intent in drugging a horse was? Like wat type of evidence might b used? cuz I cant really think of anything besides someone saying something, and thats hearsay...just curious??

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

Emanon
Apr. 2, 2002, 12:56 PM
PTDeaconHP is it better to have a spirited horse hurt themselves? Or their rider? Or a quieter one be safe? I know there is absolutely no replacement for training - I would never say that. And teaching a horse to have a good experience is something from which they can grow. I am simply saying there is usually a case for every side. I don't agree with the illegal stuff you hear about being given to horses. That is extreme and I just can't think of any reasonable case.

BarbB
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:01 PM
or are there a lot of posts that seem to reflect the attitude that it is ok to drug a horse for a show performance as long as no one can 'prove' that you are trying to cheat. If it is not 'testable, if no one can PROVE your intent, if everybody does it, then it is ok.
This is really sad. Aren't things right or wrong regardless of whether you get caught or someone is watching, or you can wiggle around the rules?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Barb

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Janet
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> im just curious how someone could prove wat a person's intent in drugging a horse was? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, suppose Colin claims she gave her horse Dex for hives. Has anyone else seen the hives? Did she call the vet about the hives? Will the vet testify that Dex was the appropriate treatment for what he observed? Did the vet recommend Dex? At what dosage? Does that correspond to the tested level? and so on. (I am using Dex as the example, even though I know it is currently igonred by "the system").

Yes, you may be able to find a vet who will lie for you, but the "judicial process" has ways of dealing with that.

Emanon
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:05 PM
Maybe we are all looking at this wrong. The AHSA has mandated that certain levels of CERTAIN drugs are ok. They are vets that have declared this safe and competitive. Over use/over dosage is not ok. Is it wrong for us to say that staying within those levels is cheating? I like the idea of taking calcium to keep ME calmer during a show. I take 2 asparin (the normal dosage) if I am showing 2 days in a row.
Just a thought.

Horsesense
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:07 PM
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . .

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHW:
PTDeaconHP is it better to have a spirited horse hurt themselves? Or their rider? Or a quieter one be safe? I know there is absolutely no replacement for training - I would never say that. And teaching a horse to have a good experience is something from which they can grow. I am simply saying there is usually a case for every side. I don't agree with the illegal stuff you hear about being given to horses. That is extreme and I just can't think of any reasonable case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that there is some case where it would b needed, but if you're at a show, where its not allowed, and a horse is so wild that its not safe to be ridden, Shouldn't it not be at a show? I understand what you mean though. It's best to be safe. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

lawgrl
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:14 PM
This is probably wandering OT a little but if I was a prosecutor and I wanted to prove someone had used a substance for behavior reasons, here's some examples of what I'd investigate:

1) Is there a legitimate reason for the use of the substance other than changing behavior? Has this reason been previously documented in this particular horse?

2) Does the person only use the substance during shows?.

3)Has the person made statements to others about the use of the drug? (not hearsay, but admission by party).

4) Has the trainer made statements to others about the use of the drug? (not hearsay, admission by representative/agent).

5) Was the substance used in conjunction with a vet's advice?

6) Is the substance commonly used to alter behavior?

7) Does the owner know what the substance is and why it is used?

8) What is the horse's normal behavior like when it is not on the substance?

Contrary to popular belief, there is a large amount of hearsay that is admissible in court.

Colin
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Quote: " im just curious how someone could prove wat a person's intent in drugging a horse was? "
Well, suppose Colin claims she gave her horse Dex for hives. Has anyone else seen the hives? Did she call the vet about the hives? Will the vet testify that Dex was the appropriate treatment for what he observed? Did the vet recommend Dex? At what dosage? Does that correspond to the tested level? and so on. (I am using Dex as the example, even though I know it is currently igonred by "the system").

Yes, you may be able to find a vet who will lie for you, but the "judicial process" has ways of dealing with that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everyone gets to see the hives, janet. He gets them from the ants I hide in his stall the night before the show. Of course, the vet recommends a STRONG dosage of dex - 10cc every time, baby.....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Portia
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
Someone metioned DMSO being illegal. My horse gets MSM which is an ingredient in DMSO. Would that be illegal for him to show on? My last horse had EPM and was on it, the vet said that it wasn't a bad thing for him to stay on it all the time even after EPM, so I ended up putting other horse on it! Good...bad, tell me????????
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MSM is fine, Court. Perfectly legal and does not need to be reported on a drug form. I checked with the D&M group on it last December, then confirmed it with Dr. Kent Allen at the Annual Meeting in January.

******

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." Sen. Everett Dirksen

Erin
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because your horse is trotting/cantering for miles and miles in a little circle, adding up to lots of cumulative concussion and wear on the joints? And meaning your horse's useful athletic life will be shorter?

Just a guess...

Colin
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Quote: "Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . ."

Because your horse is trotting/cantering for miles and miles in a little circle, adding up to lots of cumulative concussion and wear on the joints? And meaning your horse's useful athletic life will be shorter?

Just a guess...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Erin....that's why you inject the hocks and stifles! See...it all comes together....you end up medication before or after...sometimes both!

DMK
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:26 PM
Actually, at HITS this winter, Hattie and I had occasion to learn exactly how popular this concoction is, and my guess is as long as you knew the right person you could get the shot...

I think the vet in question (after being questioned about that very same cardiac arythmia reaction) was heard to say "Well I haven't lost one yet..."

But quite frankly, the thing that pisses me off the MOST about this issue is the JUDGING STANDARD. If USA Eq is this concerned about the issue, then maybe something should be done about changing the standard to ALLOW MORE EXPRESSION (horrors). You noticed the stuff isn't called "Clean Jumper Round" or "Jumper Adjustability Round"... it's called Hunter Round.

The AQHA changed their peanut roller rules, then went out and observed judges and yanked their cards if they didn't observe the new standard. It wasn't easy. It wasn't popular. But it can be done.

Drug testing is after the fact and all it seems to do is inpsire more creativity. Figuring out WHY an this is a problem is root cause analysis, and as any business person can tell you, the only way you inspire change.

(climbing off soap box now...)


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Coreene
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:51 PM
Since I don't have a mare (oh perish the thought, I don't have the personality that could handle a mare), I don't know if it is Regumate in this form or another "mare drug." I certainly don't agree with it.

I did occasionally give Willem a scoop of Steady Up when he was going through his Psycho Phase after he first started on Cushing's medication, but as soon as he got used to the medication I stopped that.

This "Hunter Round" stuff sounds terribly cruel and inhumane. And you bet your ass I would be all over a trainer who billed me for "medication" that was administered without my consent.

Getting slightly off topic, I think there are a frightening number of new riders who either totally accept everything a trainer is telling them or are too frightened to speak up.

One gal I know asked me what I knew about her new mare, which she bought about a year ago, because I have known the mare for the last ten years. I told her the history, and the gal says "And she's thirteen." I said no, she was 18 or 19. Gal insists she's 13. Well excuse moi, but the mare was 8 or 9 ten years ago. At this point I realized that she was only going to believe what she wanted to and gave up.

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2002, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Longing for training purposes or for legitimate exercise is not stupid.

The oft-mentioned "LTD" (longeing to death) in order to make a horse "quiet" for classes is stupid, as longeing puts a fair amount of stress on the joints (small circle--simple physics).

Of course, those of us with Arabs know that longeing just makes them fitter... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She means lunging your horses into the ground...which is not good because you shouldn't lunge a horse for more than 20 or 30 minutes anyway...

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

JulieMontgomery
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:
or are there a lot of posts that seem to reflect the attitude that it is ok to drug a horse for a show performance as long as no one can 'prove' that you are trying to cheat. If it is not 'testable, if no one can PROVE your intent, if everybody does it, then it is ok.
This is really sad. Aren't things right or wrong regardless of whether you get caught or someone is watching, or you can wiggle around the rules?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Barb

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:34 PM
Personally, I try to stay naive about these kinds of things...bleep out all the dark stuff like profanity on tv /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

knowonder
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:42 PM
Let me just say that while I IN NO WAY agree with or support drugging an animal, I HATE seeing horses lunged for hours on end--no exaggeration just so their non riding owners can have a quiet pretty round. Just because a horse can snap its knees does not make it a hunter--period. If it is too hot then it would kill you following the hounds--which is what we are supposed to be emulating. You wouldn't see a hunt master lunging his horse for 2-3 hours before a hunt!
OK--Off my soap box and back to reality where all of this stuff occurs--drugs, lunging, herbs, heads tied up, etc--every day. Thanks for letting me vent. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Midge
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:42 PM
DMK, we are beating the same drum.

OTOH, I have almost reached the point where I think tranquilizers should be legal. Now hear me out... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hunters are being held to an almost unreachable standard of 'quiet'. For example, they are drugged, lunged, ridden, lunged, schooled and schooled and schooled, left with no water, lunged, tied to the wall all night, a veritable litany of ills, all in an effort to reach that almost unreachable standard.

If the judging standard does not change, what is actually better for the horse, ace or a cocktail in which no one really knows the interactions and the endless working down with the horse ending up needed more joint injections, more therapy, more lasering, more masseusing. Personally, if I was forced to choose between those evils, 1/2cc of ace would be far far less harmful than the current alternatives.

Of course, I once had a conversation with a trainer whose cynicism outweighed my own and she said, 'Yes, the ace would be much more humane, but you'll never see the D&M do it because it's all the abuse that keep the horse show vets in business and the D&M is vets.' /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

****
'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

Emanon
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:48 PM
Oh Midge, I loved your reply. Yes - I totally agree - the judging standard is one that looks for the incredibly lopey quiet hunter round. Not the forward "hunting pace" of yesteryear. And yes - the D&M group are vets. Wow! Have we come full circle in this debate or what????:)

I've Got a Secret
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:49 PM
Agree with Midge. I think ace in small dosages is much more humane than hours or lungeing or riding.

Also, agree with cynic she cites, rules will likely NOT change in our lifetime.

Would also like to point out that this is NOT by any means a new problem - the initial reserpine scandals with the big name professionals in the hunters was in the EIGHTIES! 20+ years ago. To suggest all of the drug issues of today stem from "new" judging standards requiring that hunters need to look dead dog quiet perhaps oversimplies the issue.

knowonder
Apr. 2, 2002, 02:52 PM
I have to say that if I HAD to choose between lunging a horse for 2 hours or giving it 1/2cc of ace--I would give the ace--everybody can yell if they want to, but I've seen to many horses with joints that have been destroyed by too much spinnin'

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 03:06 PM
Instead on longing for hours and hours, or even a drug, all day turn out is a great solution. I know it won't solve every case, but it helps so much. Deacon used to take off with me every day, because he only got one hour of turnout every day. Now that i'm at a new barn, he gets all day turn out with his buddies, and hasn't taken off with me once /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Tin
Apr. 2, 2002, 03:09 PM
I know I'm probably going to be killed for this but perhaps if you have to lunge your horse to death or drug it just so you can get through a few rounds over fences, you shouldn't have this horse at shows. Nice priorities /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

IMO drugging at a show is a cop out and proves either horse, rider or trainer doesn't deserve to be there. If your trainer doesn't want to "deal" with your fresh horse, find one who will.

And things like "everyone does it" or "it's untestable" is never an excuse.

Feel free to e-mail me if you want to hang me and set me a blaze or you can do it publicly /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it" -W.C. Fields

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 03:09 PM
We're all talking about how all these hunter trainers, riders, owners, etc... Do these terrible things to their horses to get them quiet for shows! Lets not forget about all the good people! I school my horses the night before the show for a little while, and in the morning the next day, I ride on the flat for a little bit (like 30 min).
I don't know anyone who does all those terrible things like not giving water, or tying up heads or anything!
Don't forget about all the humane people out there in the show world! I bet that there are more good people than bad, lets not focus on all the bad ones!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Kirsten
Apr. 2, 2002, 03:21 PM
Hunter folk aren't all demons. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Here's another example to make this thread less depressing.

Our mare gets her regular night-time turnout before a show. When we arrive in the morning, my mom walks and trots her on the lunge for the 5-10 minutes it takes for me to run to the office to get my number, to let her stretch a bit. 15-20 minutes on the flat and a couple of jumps. Hang out until our class. We even stopped doing the low hunter as a warmup for the a/a's at the one-day shows, because we felt all those jumping rounds in one day was too much. Result? She's a sound horse with a good attitude, who's happy about the jumps. I just hope that whoever buys her treats her as well.

SnoSkiBunny
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:02 PM
ok- I dont usually speak on this board(I'm more of a lurker). But coming from my perspective, I have a super fancy childrens horse who gets very back sore if he is ridden alot. I try to stay off my horses back as much as possible. Yes I am always at the shows in the morning to canter my own horse out and prep him, but I would much rather give him something to "take the edge off" then cause him even more pain by being on his back even longer than I have to.
He is such a good boy, I hate cantering b/c I know it cant make him feel good. I'm not saying that drugging is good...legal or nonlegal...but I'm just saying I would give my horse something so I wouldnt have to be on him longer than I have to and if it is a legal drug then I dont see the problems with that.

Kristin

JinxyFish313
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:12 PM
IS DMSO illegal? Isnt it like cream type stuff that you use when wrapping an injured leg (ie bowed tendon)? Is there some other kind or is the cream stuff illegal? Not that anyone would put it on n then go in the show ring anyway...

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knowonder:
I have to say that if I HAD to choose between lunging a horse for 2 hours or giving it 1/2cc of ace--I would give the ace--everybody can yell if they want to, but I've seen to many horses with joints that have been destroyed by too much spinnin'

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God forbid I'd ever have to come to that decision, but I would too. And I think a lot of people that are afraid to say might agree...

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tin:
I know I'm probably going to be killed for this but perhaps if you have to lunge your horse to death or drug it just so you can get through a few rounds over fences, you shouldn't have this horse at shows. Nice priorities /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

IMO drugging at a show is a cop out and proves either horse, rider or trainer doesn't deserve to be there. If your trainer doesn't want to "deal" with your fresh horse, find one who will.

And things like "everyone does it" or "it's untestable" is never an excuse.

Feel free to e-mail me if you want to hang me and set me a blaze or you can do it publicly /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it" -W.C. Fields<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

amen!!!!!

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PTDeaconHP:
Instead on longing for hours and hours, or even a drug, all day turn out is a great solution. I know it won't solve every case, but it helps so much. Deacon used to take off with me every day, because he only got one hour of turnout every day. Now that i'm at a new barn, he gets all day turn out with his buddies, and hasn't taken off with me once /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

often turnouts are available at shows...and some horses literally live at shows...

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

vineyridge
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:34 PM
I remember when I was twelve over forty years ago, there was a shot commonly called "buttermilk" that was given to show horses of all kinds. Particularly popular with TWH people.

I have a friend who was with a show stable then, and they literally starved her show hunter to make him more tractable.

I've never known a field hunter yet who was dead calm; after all, they go galloping with a whole herd of other horses. If you do see a dead calm field hunter, it's likely been aced.

The hunting board had a discussion on acing field hunters several months ago.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
I remember when I was twelve over forty years ago, there was a shot commonly called "buttermilk" that was given to show horses of all kinds. Particularly popular with TWH people.

I have a friend who was with a show stable then, and they literally starved her show hunter to make him more tractable.

I've never known a field hunter yet who was dead calm; after all, they go galloping with a whole herd of other horses. If you do see a dead calm field hunter, it's likely been aced.

The hunting board had a discussion on acing field hunters several months ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My horse, Deacon used to do field hunters all the time, he loves it to death! I'm going to start doing him in it more soon. He's usually dead calm, and DEFINATLY not drugged. He has to go in a slightly stronger bit, but not too much stronger. He has such a great time, and he won it like crazy whenever he did it. Maybe he's just an exception. wow, i love my boys /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

SnoSkiBunny
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:45 PM
actually maggymay my horse is not lame. the vey said he is perfectly fine and we do everything we can to make him comfortable, but ummm hello i do not appreciate you jumping to conclusions about something you know nothing about.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnoSkiBunny:
ok- I dont usually speak on this board(I'm more of a lurker). But coming from my perspective, I have a super fancy childrens horse who gets very back sore if he is ridden alot. I try to stay off my horses back as much as possible. Yes I am always at the shows in the morning to canter my own horse out and prep him, but I would much rather give him something to "take the edge off" then cause him even more pain by being on his back even longer than I have to.
He is such a good boy, I hate cantering b/c I know it cant make him feel good. I'm not saying that drugging is good...legal or nonlegal...but I'm just saying I would give my horse something so I wouldnt have to be on him longer than I have to and if it is a legal drug then I dont see the problems with that.

Kristin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


you should get that checked out... PT used to have lots of back problems, because of his hind legs, but hes all better now. If his back is always sore, something must be wrong. check it out with your vet, maybe get massages, acupunture, etc... maybe that will help /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

SnoSkiBunny
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:03 PM
Thank you PT for suggesting some things that I could talk over with my vet and my trainer to help Snowbound. I really appreciate your insight!
Kristin

Tin
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:14 PM
SnoSkiBunny> also have you tried a chiropractor? We had a very cranky backed jumper who very much benifited from his chiropractor visits, also there are alot of vets studying accupuncture now which I've heard great things about too. Good luck with your horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it" -W.C. Fields

Coreene
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:29 PM
Are you giving him MSM in his feed? That's great for keeping down inflamation.

Hattie
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:37 PM
what other concoctions have been tried on these horses to see what makes them quiet and IS NOT detectable??? These drugs have serious side effects. HITS was an eye opener for me with the number of trainers using this drug. From what I understand, it is typically used to treat milk fever in cattle. Who came up with the idea to use it on horses in order to quiet them down??

Court@HJ-OH
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:38 PM
We had one at my barn that couldn't get her leads when she came and she was sharp as a tack, and well balenced so we couldn't figure out why. After 3 months they had a chiropractor look at her and he said that her spine was shaped like a question mark! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

**Courtney**
Jack ~On the Rocks~ PLEASE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Momo ~Just My Luck~

A woman only needs two animals in her life.. the horse of her dreams and a jackass to pay for it!

Tin
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:40 PM
I have many success stories about chiropractors! Tin would be sitting in a field for the rest of his life if not for one /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it" -W.C. Fields

Duffy
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:45 PM
Wow. I'm more thankful than ever for my ethical and horse-loving trainers!

SnoSkiBunny
Apr. 2, 2002, 05:46 PM
Thank you guys sooooo much for your insight!!! I will deffinately ask my trainer about a chiropractor for Snowbound! He's perfectly sound, he always jogs out fine and his x-rays are perfect, just something about his back!! Thanks again!!
Kristin

DMK
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
Who came up with the idea to use it on horses in order to quiet them down??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno, maybe the cows all quietly jumped out of the pasture after being treated? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

BAB
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:06 PM
Just so all of you know, starting on May 1, you MUST file a medication report when using any corticosteroid, including Dex, on a horse that is showing. If this drug has been given within 7 days of the show or at the show, the medication report must be filed with the steward. However there is no withdrawal from the show for 24 hours, as is the case with illegal drugs. So, USA Equestrian and Dr. Lengel do know about the overuse of these medications and anything given with corticosteroids in them will test and be noted. Penalties - I have no idea. I just know this rule just came out and was given to us, who were at the Stewards Clinic in Houston last weekend.

If you have further questions, call the Drugs and Medications Office.

Duffy
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:12 PM
maggymay....not nice OR helpful...

Good luck with trying to get your guy more comfortable, SnoSkiBunny. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cbv
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:43 PM
Just thinking about your thoughts on links between increased use of dex/immunosuppression/EPM, etc.

My initial thoughts are that horses that show regularly, particularly HJ, are a relatively small percentage of the horse population in the US. I am assuming that the increase in EPM etc. is pretty widespread among populations/breeds/disciplines and that if there were some tie to show horses that the epidemiologists would have picked that up....and even then you would have to rule out an awful lot of other variables.

I have heard it suggested that the increase in EPM and other diseases in horses is linked to widespread immunosuppression caused by chemicals in the environment...which has also been linked by some to increases in childhood cancer, lowered human fertility rates, etc.

I have other theories about EPM, but related to land-use practices that increase the density of the vectors such as small mammals...but that is way OT.

Duffy
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:43 PM
maggymay - I understand where you're coming from and you'll note that I didn't disagree with you. That said, you'll see from others' posts that they care about the horse too. The difference being that they are trying to help the situation, not condemn it outright. WE don't know what her horse feels like - only what she (? assume a she? SnoSkiBunny) feels when she's riding him.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnoSkiBunny:
Thank you PT for suggesting some things that I could talk over with my vet and my trainer to help Snowbound. I really appreciate your insight!
Kristin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your welcome! glad to help! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***
***"The ears never lie."***

Posting Trot
Apr. 2, 2002, 06:55 PM
DMK, I've got to say that the image of six or seven jersey cows leaping (with beautiful, snapped knees, of course) over their fences, made me burst out laughing, despite this being a very depressing topic. Gives a whole new meaning to daisy-cutters too, I'd bet.

elizabeth
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:17 PM
of drugging a hunter to make him quiet.

If you need to drug your hunter to make him reasonable, maybe your hunter shouldn't be your hunter. Maybe you should try your hand at jumpers.

And I have a question: Years ago I spent time on the northeast A circuit (Killington, Lake Placid, St. Clements, etc.), and my recollection is that a hunter that was consistent and pretty would not be penalized for having spunk. That is to say, a horse that had energy and step and was paying attention (as opposed to a drugged or LTD zombie) would do FINE in the hunters, as long as he was consistent (e.g. not so jazzed that he was racing or playing in the corners) and pretty (e.g. had the hunter look and move).

(Typing this has actually brought to mind an ammy-owner hunter from the late '80's who actually had a bit of spook and flight in him but for whom that high-attention level was actually an ASSET in the hunters because it made him really scope and crank up his knees.)

Is this no longer the case? Is a zombie-like automon necessary to do well on the A circuit these days? (And I am asking SINCERELY, because I have been out of the show world for almost a decade.)

SnoSkiBunny
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:22 PM
I never said my horse hates cantering. I just said that I dont like to stay on his back longer than I have to. I see nothing wrong with that. And I personally think that for *my* horse, being off his back the most I can helps him. And I do not agree with illeagal drugging, but if a horse is nervous and can benifit from a legal thing that can calm them down somewhat without unnecessary cantering then I see nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry if you cant see my reasoning behind this maggymay...and to say that I do not care about my horse is deffinately unreasonable to say considering you dont even know who I am.

Kristin

Atypical
Apr. 2, 2002, 07:42 PM
SnoSkiBunny- Does his saddle fit? I can't help but ask, since I've known so many horses that ahve improved with a better fitting saddle. I second the Chiropractic and massage. Is SNobound in CO now? CAuse if he is I ahve the name and number of a vet, who does aquapuncture (yes aquapuncture- acupunture combined with injection of B12) and is a chiropractor too. I'd ahve to find it, it's buried somewhere in a mound of papers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I should probably mention that's he's pricey.

I have to agree that the standards for hunters nowadays are rediculous. Field hunters don't go like show hunters. I hate the drugging practices and I too would probably snap at any trainer who charged me for any undiclosed "medication" given to my horse without my consent!

JustJump
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:13 PM
<< The difference being that they are trying to help the situation, not condemn it outright. WE don't know what her horse feels like - only what she [? assume a she? SnoSkiBunny) feels when she's riding him.>>

You know, my impression from SnoSki's description is that this horse isn't suited for whatever it is that he is doing....certainly, a horse SHOULD be able to canter, if that's part of the job requirement, and should be able to do so for the duration of a ride--if he needs to be babied to the extent she suggests, well, I think it is quite fair to call the animal's soundness into question, whether or not one decides to be sympathetic to the owner is quite another issue. Seems to me, maggymay called a spade a spade, something that isn't done often enough, especially in connection with topics such as this one. Yes, there are, no doubt, alot of things SnoSkiBunny could be doing to actually help improve her horse's level of comfort, but seriously, when one has to "stay off his back as much as possible" to the point where the horse cannot receive enough work to be trained for his job, well then, --it's not sound enough for that job in the first place. So yes, get the vet (duh) the chiro, accupunturist, masseuse, whomever, but till they've completed their treatment and the horse is more comfortable---how about giving the poor LAME creature a break, and RESTING IT???

Sadly, this situation is all too common...hence the "need" for the drugs.....

Court@HJ-OH
Apr. 2, 2002, 08:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnoSkiBunny:
I never said my horse hates cantering. I just said that I dont like to stay on his back longer than I have to. I see nothing wrong with that. And I personally think that for *my* horse, being off his back the most I can helps him.

Kristin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was a good suggestion about the saddle! My friends horse got really crabby all the sudden after she bought him and we didnt' know why. The vet said it was the saddle!!! She got a new rembrandt out of it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And he still get sore everyonce in a while!!! Some horses are just soft backed!!

**Courtney**
Jack ~On the Rocks~ PLEASE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Momo ~Just My Luck~

A woman only needs two animals in her life.. the horse of her dreams and a jackass to pay for it!

Janet
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:07 PM
Anybody who has heard my story before can skip this.

My horse, Music, couldn't/wouldn't canter from October to May for 4 years. It started after she had Lyme disease. We tried all sorts of things (including drugs you can't use when showing, such as Robaxin, which didn't help at all, chiropratic, acupuncture, immune stimulants, neutraceuticals, and so on). Evry May she got better, which we attributed to whatever the most recent treatment was- until the next October. She always jogged sound, and sometimes cantered in the field, but not when ridden.

I did not attempt to show her while she was "off", we just worked on what she COULD do- trail rides and therapeutic dressage.

Anyway, in the summer of 2000, we started keeping her under lights (16 hr day) without any great expectations, but becuase the only thing that was consistent was the time of year. She hasn't had a problem with cantering since, and is now showing year round.

That said, here are some PRODUCTIVE things you might try (drugging may get you through this weekend's show, but it won't address the underlying problem.

Have the saddle fit checked, especially if there is big difference between cantering with and withour a rider.

Have a chiropractic and acupuncture checkup.

Give him a month off, and see if that makes any difference.

Smetime when you aren't showing, try using a muscle relaxant (such as Robaxin) and see if it hlps. Muscle relaxants might or might not be part of a long term treatment (and I am pretty sure you can't show on Robaxin), but would at least indicate if it were a muscle problem.

Check for allergies.

Try putting him under lights.

See if it makes a difference who rides him, and how- try different positions and see if it makes any difference.

Double check his hocks (protecting the hocks often causes bck problems.

GirlNextDoor
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
Quote: "Originally posted by Erin:
Quote: "Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . ."

Because your horse is trotting/cantering for miles and miles in a little circle, adding up to lots of cumulative concussion and wear on the joints? And meaning your horse's useful athletic life will be shorter?

Just a guess..."

No, Erin....that's why you inject the hocks and stifles! See...it all comes together....you end up medication before or after...sometimes both!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes you guys are rude...perhaps horsesense was merely asking a question ::GASP:: I don't think she was asking for ridicule

Girl

GirlNextDoor
Apr. 2, 2002, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Quote: "Originally posted by Horsesense:
Ghazzu -- Lunging is "stupid"? And that would be because . . . ."


Longing for training purposes or for legitimate exercise is not stupid.

The oft-mentioned "LTD" (longeing to death) in order to make a horse "quiet" for classes is stupid, as longeing puts a fair amount of stress on the joints (small circle--simple physics).

Of course, those of us with Arabs know that longeing just makes them fitter... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see where you are coming from with the small circle and stuff...but you are putting stress on your horse to make him quiet even if you are riding the horse...face it, everyone wants a quiet horse!
I think there are also two ways of lunging...there is chasing lunging where the horse is going dangerously and then there is calm and collected lunging...
Wouldn't lunging on a longer lunge line put the same stress as riding would?
sorry if this post doesn't make much sense...I am sleepy

Girl

Smiles
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:29 PM
After reading this thread I can't understand how some of you guys are still in the dark to the fact the many barns top A show barns to small local barns use drugs to help make a horses performence in the ring better. It is a know fact that barns have certain concoction/reciepes that they have used for years in order to show horses quite/sane/sound. Why, because they stand to make more moeny on the horse with a great show record then one with no show record!!!

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:32 PM
Oh, dear -- the longer this thread gets, the more I'm starting to realize how little I know...and how true it is that ignorance is bliss.

First off, I have to say that I just do not GET the point of owning a horse that you can't just get on and RIDE without either drugs or lunging to death to basically wear it down. In my world, that just means that the horse is NOT SUITABLE to the rider. Period. If you need a horse that quiet, buy one. Find an old packer that is bored and knows its job and enjoy (if there is any joy in this for some people).

Not that there aren't days when you might want to lunge to get the bucks out (hey, I've got a young OTTB myself) but if you need to do more than, what, 20 minutes MAX I'd say you've got a bigger problem than high spirits. You have a horse you have no business sitting on, IMO. These are people taking horses of 3'6" jumps, and they're afraid to ride them if they're up?! Hello? I ride my OTTB when he's nutty, so why can't they ride soemthing less than dead?

Second, I'm VERY disturbed by this quote from Slim:
"I trust my trainer to do watever he thinks is best, and knowing that half the show circuit does the same thing, i dont mind it @ all and that DOES include illegal drugs. I've trained w/lots of BNTs who's opinions I trust and if they use illegal drugs sometimes, so be it, "

Can this really be indicative of the attitude prevalent in the As and with BNTs? PLEASE someone tell me this is not so. Slim, do you realize that you basically seem to be saying "the horse as a living partner doesn't really matter here -- if the trainer-god says that we need to drug the sports equipment, even with something illegal, that's OK with me and I don't even need to give permission." Do you truly mean that? Don't you want to know what drugs may be given, what the benefits and risks are short and long term, and what alternatives exist (including NOT SHOWING that day)?

Then we have someone who seems to be showing a horse who may have a significant pain issue -- be in fact, actually unsound. That may just be a matter of misunderstanding, I know, about the situation as described. The horse may just need different management and care, but on top of Slim it's easy to read that as another issue of treating the horse as sports equipment and not giving him the concern he needs.

I'm hoping I'm just not seeing something here. Right now, it seems that the concern for THE HORSE is just demolished, and I can't imagine if that's so why anyone would even bother with this sport. If you don't care enough about the horse to know what's going into it's bloodstream, why not take up competitive cycling or something instead. You'll be doing a noble, giving, live creature a favor.

Borah
Apr. 2, 2002, 10:53 PM
Hopeful Hunter - you quoted me (Slim) as having said some things but I think, in fact, you are quoting SlimShady. I hadn't even looked at this thread but am glad now that I did.

Think I'll go change my name to something really distinctive.....

knowonder
Apr. 3, 2002, 06:48 AM
I think we've all vented and said our peace and hopefully some good can come of this. If I hadn't known of all this stuff (sadly I did) I would now be a much more informed owner/client. Now SnoSkiBunny knows about chiropractic/accupuncture options and the rest of our world knows for certain that drugging and abusive lunging and other practises DO GO ON at big name barns. THE biggest name that I know of is famous for trips to South America to discover new compounds that are not testable yet to hide soundness and sanity problems in some of their top horses--and yes I heard this straight from an assisstant trainers mouth. PLEASE everyone take from this disturbing topic that we all need to be vigilent owners and riders and to look out for our horse's well being--they depend on us to protect them and make decisions that are what is best for them.

That being said while I know tempers flare and feelings get hurt here sometimes, I really overall enjoy this board and even topics like this because they serve the purpose of education and giving us all a place to vent--and yeah I've been yelled at before too--but that doesn't keep me from coming back and I hope SnoSkiBunny will continue to post and not just lurk.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Flash44
Apr. 3, 2002, 07:14 AM
And you gotta wonder how things like Enron happen. Kids grow up thinking it's OK to break the rules whenever they want because an irresponsible adult does it or condones it. Hey, it's the result that's important!!! Who cares how you got there? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'll tell you once more before I get off the floor don't bring me down...

Janet
Apr. 3, 2002, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wouldn't lunging on a longer lunge line put the same stress as riding would? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Longing on a longer lunge line would put similar stress on the joints as riding the same size circle continuously. It is the centritipal force that puts a bending stres onthe joints

But when we ride, we usually
intersperse some straight bits with the circles
change direction more often
change gaits more often
all of which reduce the stress.

Horsesense
Apr. 3, 2002, 07:52 AM
Thank you, Girl Next Door. Also, Ghazzu, I appreciate you making the distinction between lunging and "lunging to death."

findeight
Apr. 3, 2002, 07:58 AM
I am in a AA barn with ethical and hard working help. I just cannot believe some of the posts about walking down the barn aisle and seeing all this blatant stuff. To me it just advertises the fact they cannot train the horses and I'd never buy or recommend any animal that had passed thru there. If any help in my trainer's barn strutted around with a syringe talking loudly about giving shots for anything they'd be packing. Without discussing whys and wherefores of this substance or that, anything they get is legal and on the drug form-I even have to stop giving my mare her daily beer 3 days out and declare it (o.k. she gets it with vets approval in the heat and humidity of summer as she sometimes does not sweat adequatly. Very old remedy but the alcohol is a depressant and even the ounce or so can show up).
I place blame in two places. Trainers and owners.

Trainers who flaunt the rules. Trainers who are not honest with the owners about the abilities of their horses or the suitability of the horse to the showring. Trainers who sell unsuitable horses to them just to make a commission. Trainers who are lazy and do not get the necessary preparation done to prepare the horse for the ring. Trainers who haul said unsuitable and unprepared horse to the show to ding the owners for more bucks.

Owners who are blind to the obvious. Owners who ignore obvious signs that the horse is not suitable for them. Owners that ignore signs that the horse is not a hunter. Owners that pressure the trainer to rush to get the horse to the shows.
Owners who never ask what are the meds they are charged for at the show. Owners who expect to win on their own horse without benefit of practice. Owners who want to make a buck off the sale of the horse as quickly as possible.

Maybe we can add both of these and the judges in the mix on those automaton rounds. You should hear the railbirds squawk when a good 4' round with a little "frolic" in the corner gets the good score it should, maybe a couple of points off. You'd think it flipped over from the reaction of some.

Complicated issue with lots of discussion points. Thanks to the original poster.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Hattie
Apr. 3, 2002, 08:18 AM
that if your horse is foot sore after several weeks of showing that you can have their feet blocked??? What happened to the idea of giving your horse some time off to recover?? I think that this all boils down to this is BIG business. When you can get 6 figures for a horse and easily make 5 figure commissions, it's the horse that suffers.

PromQueen
Apr. 3, 2002, 08:56 AM
What I find so disturbing about all of this, even though I am not the least bit surprised) is that this vet out in California readily gives it to whomever asks for it, and that everyone knows all about it, like it's no big deal....I know a lot of the big A barns out there,(no mention of names) who see to it that their horses go at all costs.....and I am sure that those posters from California who know all about this could probably tell you the name of this vet, or at least give a good guess....wouldn't USA EQ like to know too? I guess those trainers, wherever they may be, who allow this to happen, who have been caught administering illegal drugs in the past, must really not care about rules (what rules?)... they just find other ways around them, and hope they don't get caught a second time, etc..... Just my thoughts, and please don't flame me.

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:09 AM
Two things:

Berg (correct name?) -- sorry, I didn't know you were also called Slim by a screenname, no offense intended. I used an abbreviated version as that was all my older brain retained, I'm afraid - apologies!

Second: Can anything be done about the vet's who do this drugging and (I'm shuddering at this one) nerve blocking? Is there a place to report them for ethical or even medical (seems the blocking would be in this category) violations? I've reported MDs, and would certainly do the same with a vet (although I hope never to see anything to report!) if needed if I knew where to go.

hobson
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHW:
PTDeaconHP is it better to have a spirited horse hurt themselves? Or their rider? Or a quieter one be safe? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The notion that safety is a good reason for drugging show horses is a bunch of hooey. If riders were really worried about safety, they:
(a) would NOT be on a horse in the first place, and
(b) would NOT be showing without approved helmets and padded body protectors, and
(c) would NOT be jumping.

When I see everyone in the hunter classes wearing Tipperary vests and strapped into approved helmets, THEN I'll believe the line that it's about safety.

As has been said, a rider who has to depend on drugs to get her horse around the ring needs a different, more reliable/quieter horse. When even the pros are resorting to training in a syringe, then either the horse, the pro, or both need a new career.

Janet
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:29 AM
Many years ago, I was the "trainer" (in that I leased her and was responsible for most decisions) and rider of a very talented, but hot, TB mare. We (the owner and I) never even CONSIDERED trying to show her as a hunter (except to get ring mileage). We aimed her at the jumpers and eventing, where she was quite sucessful.

Maybe if the owners and trainers spent more time figuring out what was the best discipline FROM THE HORSE'S perspective, instead of a) what the rider wants to do and b) what will bring the most profit, there would not be as much drugging.

Colin
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:32 AM
....Very interesting. I have tried for several years to make my 4 year old paint a dead dog quiet hunter...and it simply is not happening...but he is very athletic and smart and talented...maybe it's time for Colin to enter the jumper arena???? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Ghazzu
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
that if your horse is foot sore after several weeks of showing that you can have their feet blocked??? What happened to the idea of giving your horse some time off to recover?? I think that this all boils down to this is BIG business. When you can get 6 figures for a horse and easily make 5 figure commissions, it's the horse that suffers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A colleague of mine related the following story to me several years back--seems a client was showing in Florida and got a bill from her BNT which included a line item about "blocking feet".
She went and found BNT and asked why he hadn't told her the horse had been lame, was it ok to show that weekend, etc.
BNT looked at her like she was a dimwitted child, and told her the horse hadn't been lame, that the blocks were so he'd jog sound. Owner went nuts. BNT grabbed bill shich she was waving at him. She got a new bill in the mail with that particular line item gone.
Speculated that BNT was afraid that she was so angry that she'd try and make trouble with the authorities.

DMK
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:46 AM
Actually Janet, I personally think that at the highest levels the vast majority of BNTs are not trying to make a horse unsuited to hunters BE a hunter. There is plenty of money in jumpers too.

I suspect that more are trying to meet an impossible judging standard, and are hedging their bets even when they might not actually need to do so.

Colin... Jumpers... Scary thought! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Colin
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:50 AM
....He will HAVE to be a hunter. Thank god there are no drug rules in Utah! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 3, 2002, 10:12 AM
Ghazzu writes: "She got a new bill in the mail with that particular line item gone.
Speculated that BNT was afraid that she was so angry that she'd try and make trouble with the authorities."

And........DID SHE? Seems to me that doing so would have been to the vast benefit of horses, and frankly riders (the safety of riding a horse with a nerve block scares me to death!). Keeping quiet just lets the ugliness continue, and provides a huge opportunity for the sport to be publicly flogged for animal abuse by the PETA folks. So what happened?

Portia
Apr. 3, 2002, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
Can anything be done about the vet's who do this drugging and (I'm shuddering at this one) nerve blocking? Is there a place to report them for ethical or even medical (seems the blocking would be in this category) violations? I've reported MDs, and would certainly do the same with a vet (although I hope never to see anything to report!) if needed if I knew where to go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES, Hopeful Hunter, there is -- both USA Eq and the American Association of Equine Practitioners. If the offender is a USA Eq member or is present on USA Eq show grounds, USA Eq can take disciplinary action. The AAEP has a Code of Ethics. Maybe the particular offender isn't an AAEP member, but by reporting these activities you can make sure he/she never becomes a member and the conduct will become known.

American Association of Equine Practitioners (http://www.aaep.org/)

Also, for those who said they don't think the rules will change because the vets are making money off of getting around the drug rules and its vets that run D&M -- you must have never met or spoken with either Dr. Lengel or Dr. Allen, nor read anything they have written. They are honorable and ethical equine practitioners -- very unlike the vet who is handing out this "red shot" crap.

Dr. Lengel and Dr. Allen are dedicated to the enforcement of the D&M rules because they want two things: (1) to protect the health and welfare of the horses to the greatest extent possible, and (2) to protect the integrity of the sport by attempting to ensure a level playing field and that people abide by the rules.

Dr. Lengel and Dr. Allen are in no way naive. They know exactly what goes on and they know all the tricks, far better than most of us ever will. However, anyone who thinks they approve of or are profitting from those tricks and abuses is very, very wrong.

They work to enforce the rules to try, as much as possible, to eliminate the abuse and stop the cheaters. However, they do not make the rules. The Board of Directors and Executive Committe of USA Eq are the only ones who adopt rules. The D&M Committee makes recommendations, but the other committees have plenty of influence about the drug rules that apply to their disciplines.

It's not "the vets" who decided that horses have to be dead quiet to win in the hunters. If the hunter constituency wanted to and could convince the NHJC and other committees that it's really better for the horses to drop the ban on ACE and other tranqs rather than run the risk that cheaters will subject them to unknown cocktails and other abuses to get them into the same zombified state, then the rule would probably be changed.

That probably isn't going to happen, however, because then the hunter community would have to actually admit, openly, that such cheating and abuses are widespread, and that they arise out of their own warped standards of what a "hunter" should be.

******

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." Sen. Everett Dirksen

Ghazzu
Apr. 3, 2002, 11:02 AM
On behalf of the vast majority of DVMs who find the widespread drugging of show horses an abomination, thank you, Portia.

JinxyFish313
Apr. 3, 2002, 11:07 AM
when I said I trust my trainer's opinion...Its bc I kno he's not gonna giv my horse or any other clients' horses anything that could do any serious damage or have harmful long term or even short term affects. If there was ever a time where my horse(s) needed to be medicated with something other than your standard maintenance drugs, my trainer would consult me about it first.


And as a side note..why does every thread on this board have to turn into a mud slinging contest? Most of this isnt discussion, its everyone argueing over who's opinions are correct. Simple threads have turned into HUGE issues where by the time u get to the 3rd page, posters aren't even discussing the original issue posed by the thread. <- Just an observance.

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

SGray
Apr. 3, 2002, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
That probably isn't going to happen, however, because then the hunter community would have to actually admit, openly, that such cheating and abuses are widespread, and that they arise out of their own warped standards of what a "hunter" should be.

******
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

spoken like a true jumper

Hattie
Apr. 3, 2002, 11:25 AM
I am sad to say that some of this people happen to be horse show officials /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I am sure that USAeq knows exactly what is going on.

JinxyFish313
Apr. 3, 2002, 11:44 AM
my trainer DID attend vet skool for awhile. And yes, the drugs that he gives are all prescribed and suggested by our vet. Standard maintenance drugs- bute, banamine, etc. Wat's wrong w/helping your horse feel a little better sometimes? I hav no problem w/it. Im not talking about using drugs to make hunters into zombies out there in la la land, we dont hav any that need to go like that bc of excellent training and excercise programs. You'd most likely find our "up" horses out on the longe line for 15 minutes or in the schooling ring extra early than on cross ties in the aisle w/a needle in its neck. I KNOW wat its like wen u start abusing tranq...I worked for a summer camp where half the school horses were shot up 2 times a day just so they wouldnt do ANYTHING that might unseat a rider. Translation- they could barely pick their feet up off the ground half the time. THings like that are wat i dont condone.

And ethics have nothing to do w/my statement about every thread turning into a giant dispute and arguement over who's opinions are correct. The next topic that comes to mind would b the issue over american vs european jumping style and how it turned into a debate about who's right, those who think tbs are the best hunters or those who think wbs are, for example

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

Portia
Apr. 3, 2002, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGray:

spoken like a true jumper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn right, you DQ, you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Me and the rest of the 28% of those who designated either hunter or jumper as their primary discipline on their USA Eq membership forms this year and chose "jumper." /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Still in the minority, but growing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

******

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." Sen. Everett Dirksen

knowonder
Apr. 3, 2002, 12:25 PM
I guess my biggest problem with this term is that IMHO there should be no such thing. People--even athletes--sometimes choose to place themselves on standard doses of ibuprofen, aspirin, or even stronger medications. THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS OUR HORSES CANNOT VOICE THEIR OPINION OR PREFERENCE. No one tells a really talented human athlete that they must perform or continue in a sport that HURTS THEM because they look good doing it or can win major competitions--and even if they do IT IS THEIR DECISION. Do I give bute when my mare hurts? Ablolutely BUT WE STAY HOME FROM THE SHOW--and rest until her "hurt" (whatever that may be) is over.

Again my point is--we are these creatures caretakers. Can you imagine being mute and having a creature you cannot communicate with effectively deciding that even though you are limping, sore, "up", or whatever that they are going to inject you so you can perform.

Don't get me wrong--I'm the same person that said that if I HAD to choose I would give 1/2cc of ace before longeing a horse for 2-3 hours--but to have a horse doing a job that it's body can no longer support without the aid of medication just seems a little selfish to me--however I also know that without all the "servicably sound" show horses out there our dogs and the Europeans would be eating a lot more of our old show horses.

I don't have the answer--just try to do the best you can by the magnificent creatures who live their lives for the most part, trying to please us. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 3, 2002, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smiles:
After reading this thread I can't understand how some of you guys are still in the dark to the fact the many barns top A show barns to small local barns use drugs to help make a horses performence in the ring better. It is a know fact that barns have certain concoction/reciepes that they have used for years in order to show horses quite/sane/sound. Why, because they stand to make more moeny on the horse with a great show record then one with no show record!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know what happens at our barns! We do not drug our horses when they show! At home, they would get vitamins to help with joints and stuff, but not to make them quiet! Just becasue some barns do that, doesn't mean we all do! Don't judge from a few barns!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 3, 2002, 01:50 PM
this is terrible... can we end this? Everyone is like "hunters is bad" "hunters is corrupt"
Only a few are! Lets not judge all hunters by a few!

bottom line about drugs:
Drugs to change your horse are bad, if the horse is so wild to need them, they shouldn't be showing in the first place.

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

Flash44
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:10 PM
There is a time and a place for drugs. I'm in my mid 30s, very active, and consume much more ibuprophen than I did in my 20s, and never took anything in my teens. My body is aging and needs a little help. Should I give up sports because I get a little sore once in a while??

You have to look at your horse's whole life and decide whether or not his lifestyle is good for him. Can he do the # of shows and remain fat and happy with very few meds or abusive training practices? As he gets older, you will have to make changes to accomodate his changing physical needs. There is no way around it. Whether a person choosed to do fewer shows, jump smaller jumps, or just stick needles in his neck shows how much they really care about the animal and their sport in general. Some maintenance drugs are necessary as an animal ages. Same with people. And it's a very multishaded gray area between helping the horse out a little and covering up abuse and injuries.

I'll tell you once more before I get off the floor don't bring me down...

knowonder
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:16 PM
As usual, I agree with ya--like I said in my earlier post--without the servicably sound lots of horses would end up in the little round silver cans--I just want everyone--and I'm pointing fingers at no one in particular--to think of their horses' best interest first because they can't speak for themselves. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Smiles
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:20 PM
DEACON it was a general statement not aimed at you. It was intended for all. Geez /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I also forgot to add your barn may not drug but many do!!! Sorry but thats the facts!!!!!

[This message was edited by Smiles on Apr. 03, 2002 at 05:24 PM.]

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:23 PM
I see why some horses need drugs to stay healthy, and I believe that some are fine, ones that help joints and stuff, but drugs to make your horse quiet are not. Thats all I meant. I didn't mean ALL medications are bad. Some are neccesary, like vitamins or joint help /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smiles:
DEACON it was a general statement not aimed at you. It was intdend for all. Geez /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to blow up, but there are about 5-6 threads up right now talking about how corrupt and terrible the hunter world is. I didn't mean to be nasty or anything
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Please don't think i'm a mean person, this is just a topic that gets me a little upset, it seems so many people hate the hunter world..
I'm not a nasty person! I didn't mean to sound that way! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

lawgrl
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DEACON: it seems so many people hate the hunter world.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that applies to most of the people on this BB or that have posted on this thread--On the contrary, we get upset about some of the things that happen in the hunter world BECAUSE we love it and we want the sport to be the best that it can be.

Recognizing and discussing problems is the first step in improving any sport /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ghazzu
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
There is a time and a place for drugs. I'm in my mid 30s, very active, and consume much more ibuprophen than I did in my 20s, and never took anything in my teens. My body is aging and needs a little help. Should I give up sports because I get a little sore once in a while??
...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but that's a bit different than, say, popping a couple valium because jumping fences makes you nervous, isn't it?

While judicious use of NSAIDs *may* be acceptable, the issue there is that they are being used to treat an actual medical condition.

Not so with tranquilizers. They are being used to cover holes in training.

Janet
Apr. 3, 2002, 02:57 PM
You mean Colin shouldn't be allowed her pre-ride 6 pack?

DMK
Apr. 3, 2002, 03:01 PM
Ghazzu, I may be putting words in Flash's mouth, er, internet bandwidth /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but i think she was responding to the person who stated that there pretty much was no place for maintainance drugs.

And I understand that philosophy. If bute is how your horse gets around 8 jumps, then Houston, we have a problem.

But if we are talking about a horse who is turned out for 12 hours a day, then stands in a trailer for 3-7 hours and spends 2 weeks in a 9X9 stall, possibly set up on asphalt, with no access to turnout, then he is one amazing horse if he doesn't get stiff and ouchy. This is not to say he wouldn't pass the jog if he didn't have the meds, but he certainly isn't the same free moving horse he was at home, with all the perks of home living!


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Colin
Apr. 3, 2002, 03:02 PM
....I wonder if alcohol tests???? Oh well...no drug testers in Utah....We can drink up and shoot up all we want! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weatherford
Apr. 3, 2002, 03:13 PM
I think there is a tremendous LACK OF education about drugs and their long term effects on the horse's system.

Bute causing ulcers, dex causing depressed immune system & founder, some of the stuff used to inject hocks in the long term actually BREAKS DOWN the ligaments, etc, etc. (the latter I know because a friend with serious arthritis in her foot/ankle asked about it and was told once or twice, OK, but more than that causes the damage! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

So, we do these things without really understanding or learning about these long term effects! We accept our trainer's word for it that whatever they are doing is "necessary maintenance" or whatever, but are they REALLY educated about it. (I know one "trainer" who is certainly NOT so - does it because everyone does it...)

In my opinion, it is OUR responsibility to find out what is going into our horses, and stick by our guns if we don't want it. Yes, we SHOULS be able to trust our trainers to do what is best, but from what I see and hear, that may not be the case.

Check the web and learn what you can!

lmlacross
Apr. 3, 2002, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Quote: "Originally posted by Flash44:
There is a time and a place for drugs. I'm in my mid 30s, very active, and consume much more ibuprophen than I did in my 20s, and never took anything in my teens. My body is aging and needs a little help. Should I give up sports because I get a little sore once in a while??
..."

No, but that's a bit different than, say, popping a couple valium because jumping fences makes you nervous, isn't it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been known to take a Xanax precisely because jumping fences (at shows) makes me a little nervous. I guess I take performance enhancing drugs, then. Go ahead, strip me of my Olympic gold (er...well, that low hunter championship from the Eagle River, WI hunter show, rather)! I don't think the people-to-horse analogy really applies here.

Quite honestly, I think we could make ourselves a little cross-eyed theorizing what is and is not "performance enhancing". Some un-testable (or non-tested for) herbal calmatives are considered performance enhancing- in that case, everyone's quick to cry foul. Some herbal and non-herbal supplements are performance enhancing in other ways, yet people are much more hesitant to cry "cheater" in that case.

The fact is, the term is a subjective one, and the line of propriety is therefore frequently self-drawn. Quite honestly, I think it's rather absurd that a syringe of Quietex is often characterized as some kind of heinous sin. I could gnaw on a turkey leg for an hour before I ride and it would test the same-- same active ingredient, and, in theory, same effect (you all know what thanksgiving feels like). It's hardly on the same plane as shooting your horse full of ACE then heading out to do the 3'6" hunters for two or three days (of course, all this is in my opinion, for whatever that's worth).

Everyone draws their own personal line in the sand, and most of us work within the confines of (AHSA) rules...but that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to think that the rules lack clarity, objectivity and universality.

LML

MeanderCreek
Apr. 3, 2002, 04:57 PM
WHY does Dexamethazone make them quiet?
My only experience using it was on a dying pony and it teporarily perked her up. Its a corticosteriod, so it seems contridictary to me that it would have a quieting affect.
I asked my vet this morning and he asked if I was sleep deprived again /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif He said he had never heard of it being used for quieting purposes and didn't know that that was a side affect of Dex.

DMK - anybody???

www.meandercreekstable.com (http://www.meandercreekstable.com)

Midge
Apr. 3, 2002, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:

Go watch a competition run under FEI rules, especially a 3-day, to see what true horsemanship looks like.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yes, that would be the event two weeks ago in which two horses died at the same fence. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

****
'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

DMK
Apr. 3, 2002, 06:02 PM
Meander Creek the theory behind dex is it is supposed to act a little like a benedryl and take the edge off the horse. And for everyone who thinks that, there is a vet to tell you it does not do that.

I have never seen it perk up a horse though. Maybe the dying pony was just feeling better since it was addressing valid symptoms and doing the job for which it was administered?

My hunter gets it for inhalent/skin allergies and I have never seen it make him calmer or more excited. But he gets under half the therapeutic dose and gets it very very rarely since allergies are an auto-immune disorder, and adding an immune suppressant to the mix seems foolish except in cases of severe need...

But as for the FEI level rules (jumper FEI anyway)... please do NOT get that thread started... One is living the life of the truly naive if one thinks the FEI level participants are squeeky clean.

Most of the "untestable" stuff that makes it way over here is "discovered" in Europe. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif For instance everyone goes on and on about that lovely reserpine incident here in the states a few years ago... Hello? The stuff CAME from across the pond, was labeled FEI APPROVED and is STILL being used over there are far as I know...


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

PromQueen
Apr. 3, 2002, 06:16 PM
I just got my issue of USA EQ magazine today, and I noticed that Frank Madden got caught again for administering an illegal substance......does he not really care? I just don't get it.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ben and Me
Apr. 3, 2002, 06:18 PM
I refuse to enter a debate about drug use on this board. I find them petty and it is obvious to me that no one is going to change the other's mind.

My former horse had the strangest lameness, we tried everything-even spending $600 at the vet school and buying a $3000 saddle to try and correct his lameness. He was fine at home, but the second he arrived at a show, he would go lame. So, he got a LEGAL amount of bute or banamine, depending, and we showed. This happened 2 times before we decided that this was not the ideal situation-it was SO frustrating-and we donated him to Chatham Hall.

Now, re maggymay's comments about horsemanship at the shows. I don't know what shows many of you have been attending, but I have never seen blatant illegal drug use. In reality, I usually only hear questions about bute/banamine for ouchy horses-and to tell you the truth, I am ouchy by Sunday at shows, and I'm only 15! I am also the only person that touches my horse. I do take him for a ton of walks throughout the day, clean his stall at least 3 times a day, poulitice his feet (before he had pads and bar shoes), linament and wrap his legs, etc all by myself-and usually help my friends do the same for their horses.

We're not all drug abusing hunter princesses who have no idea what we're talking about. I don't know every drug rule written, but I listen to my trainer, and administer her recommended medication (bute or banamine and robaxin) myself. I think that most trainers are not willing to risk being caught just for one show-especially trainers who aren't big name.

I think that the majority of horses being shown are under the same care system, and only get bute for slight soreness.

"Celebrate we will, 'Cause life is short but sweet for certain" ~Dave Matthews
"Better a live chicken than a dead or hurt duck" ~Judy Richter, Pony Talk

AM
Apr. 3, 2002, 06:33 PM
I don't know about dex specifically in horses but I've worked with humans with endocrine disorders for several years. Dex is a synthetic form of cortisol. We humans have a diurnal rhythm to our cortisol production. It's higher in the morning when we're generally awake and lower in the evening which helps us go to sleep. So it seems strange to me that dex would be calming for a horse. Basically, too much cortisol (dex) is similar to Cushings disease.

Cream Soda
Apr. 3, 2002, 07:30 PM
Meandercreek-

I don't know exactly how Dex works however I know that my old barn used this a lot to quiet horses down. However bad side effects include weak hooves and absess'. Now who would really want their horses to get this stuff?

When I rode at my old barn, a top A circuit barn in California and yes I do know this vet you are talking about that gives out these drugs like the hunter round and such. Anyways, I had a high strung warmblood that I showed in the equitation. For the first show they lunged him to the ground then he was slightly off for the rest of the show. The next show they gave him a B12 and calcium shot and dex and all that did was make him groggy and he did not perform very well. I became so angry when I found out that my trainer gave him these drugs, so from the next show on I would get on him about 1-2 hours before my class and canter him around the ring until he settled. I was known as the human lunge. I must say that I am very glad that I am not around that barn anymore.

And yes, illegal drugging happens more than everyone thinks. What usually happens is you will see a hunter being very successful for a year or maybe two then just disapear, now I wonder what happened there...

SBT
Apr. 3, 2002, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lmlacross:



I've been known to take a Xanax precisely because jumping fences (at shows) makes me a little nervous. I guess I take performance enhancing drugs, then. Go ahead, strip me of my Olympic gold (er...well, that low hunter championship from the Eagle River, WI hunter show, rather)! I don't think the people-to-horse analogy really applies here.

LML<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is very ironic, because I went to bed thinking about almost the same thing last night! If people are allowed to take the psychotropic medications that help them stay functional, why wouldn't the same principles apply to horses? Those principles being the way psychotropic meds are theorized to work. I know this stuff because I've taken many Psych courses: the theory relies on the the functionality of neurotransmitters, the "chemical messengers" that transfer a signal from one neuron to the next. Sometimes a person's body can produce too few of these chemicals, or the chemicals can end up returning to the neuron that fired them instead of crossing the gap (synapse) to the next neuron. (This is referred to as "reuptake.") Either way, the result is a "misfiring" of neurons, basically causing a short-circuit in the normal chemical workings of the brain. This scenario is believed to be at the root of many psychological disorders, including manic-depressive (bi-polar) disorder, panic disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, depresson, schizophrenia, and more. Whether the chemical imbalance is the cause or effect of these disorders is debatable, but some doctors believe it is a vicious cycle: depression can cause or be caused by nerve misfires, for example. Other doctors believe that psychological disorders are genetic. The true cause of the disorders is really unknown. The proof of the whole nerve-misfire theory lies in the enormous success of drugs designed to increase the output of chemical messengers and/or prevent reuptake. The results are so drastic in some cases that, when coupled with more traditional therapies, patients who were once confined to mental institutions can now expect to live nearly-normal lives.

My point to this whole long explanation is that I'm wondering if the same theory applies to horses, or to all animals for that matter. Their brain functions also rely on the effectiveness of chemical messengers that travel between neurons. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that they could suffer from disorders that are similar to the ones we humans experience? If so, wouldn't it then also be reasonable to consider medication...especially the natrual calmatives...to help them? In other words, if I were to take St. John's Wort to releive excessive anxiety caused by a biochemical imbalance, wouldn't it be just as reasonable to give a valerian root supplement to my very nervous horse?

Obviously, equine veterinary science hasn't quite made it this far yet (especially because equine doses of such drugs as Prozac would be prohibitively expensive), but I think it's worth considering. I personally try to steer clear of performance-enhancing drugs at all costs with the horses I work with, but I wonder if a horse's improved performance with, say, a natrual calmative or low dose of tranquilizer, might actually be indicating that we've given him something his body doesn't produce enough of natrually.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[This message was edited by sbt78lw on Apr. 04, 2002 at 11:35 PM.]

BarbB
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:11 PM
your post sounded suspiciously like you were advocating *gasp* personal responsibility!

OMG!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
what an archaic idea!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

SBT
Apr. 3, 2002, 09:17 PM
I didn't think Prozac was given to horses! It must cost hundreds of dollars per week! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

~Sara

Peggy
Apr. 3, 2002, 10:51 PM
My dad (who's a psychiatrist) and I have had several conversations about the tranquilizers used on horses. He says that there are safer and more effective ones out their. Vets that I've talked to say that they would be prohibitively expensive for a large animal (unless it was an EXTREMEMLY valuable large animal).

Haven't heard of Prozac used for horses, but have heard of a long-term psychotic called "prolixin" being used.

Bumpkin
Apr. 4, 2002, 01:58 AM
and look at the time /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I started back into horses after being away for 25 years.
When I left drugging was unfortunately happening, and most of my peers and trainers felt that riding a drugged horse was very dangerous. Is that not the case anymore? Is a 1200 plus pound animal rationally minded being drugged and sent over fences?

Don't these drugs carry warnings about operation of heavy machinery?

I still hose my horses legs off with ice cold water after I ride him, I also rub his legs down with rubbing alcohol. I don't know if I am the only one in the barn who does this or not. But I did it a lot at the track and back in the 60's and 70's with the show horses we had in training. I would feel guilty if I don't do the same for my beloved Elliot.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 4, 2002, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
and look at the time /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I started back into horses after being away for 25 years.
When I left drugging was unfortunately happening, and most of my peers and trainers felt that riding a drugged horse was very dangerous. Is that not the case anymore? Is a 1200 plus pound animal rationally minded being drugged and sent over fences?

Don't these drugs carry warnings about operation of heavy machinery?

I still hose my horses legs off with ice cold water after I ride him, I also rub his legs down with rubbing alcohol. I don't know if I am the only one in the barn who does this or not. But I did it a lot at the track and back in the 60's and 70's with the show horses we had in training. I would feel guilty if I don't do the same for my beloved Elliot.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People still think that drugging is bad! (well we've been over many times in here that ALL aren't bad, like joint help and stuff). But a few people do it, so in here thats whats being talked about like crazy! But no, most people don't do it! there are good people out there!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

Ghazzu
Apr. 4, 2002, 06:47 AM
Sorry, but I just don't buy the nonsense that a horse which is too much for the rider to handle or who throws in a feel good buck in the corner that costs it a ribbon has any underlying psychological disorder that would make the use of pyschotropic drugs legitimate.

Just pale excuses for lack of training on either the horse's or rider's part, an unsuitable temperamant for the job, an incredibly artificial standard of judging, or some combination of the above.

snaffles
Apr. 4, 2002, 06:51 AM
Whoa up a minute... are we talking about cooling down Warmbloods, who are supposed to be so quiet you need to keep a leg on them all the way down to the jumps? Or TB's? I am confused here.

Weatherford
Apr. 4, 2002, 06:58 AM
Human physiology is NOT the same as horses - I would be really concerned using human drugs that haven't been TESTED for horses. (Most of the ones we use now HAVE been - such as Isox...)

M. O'Connor
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:20 AM
"deal" efficiently (ie in the most face-saving, least time consuming, most economically rewarding way) with the unfortunate results of:

1) having created an unsuitable match between horse and rider

2) having placed a horse in a niche for which it was unsuited/unprepared/not sound enough for

3) incompetent or ignorant training/management methods

4) subjecting too many horses to a state of perpetual confinement of which very few are actually psychologically tolerant enough to cope

5) soaring real estate values which have led to a premium of open space for turnout or room to hack outside the confines of the 4sides of a crowded ring

6) an ethical climate which has allowed for the "normalization" and wide acceptance of these methods

7) the economic conditions (ie time=money / less competitive success=less financial success / more labor intensive methods = increased expenses) that discourage attempts to achieve the desired results in other ways

8) qualification criteria that penalize those who compete less often

9) an inability to determine performance standards that fail to reward that "perfect, quiet, easy-looking" hunter over one of equal talent but less "desireable" behavior....

MCL

Ben and Me
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:30 AM
Since I already stated that I am against tranquing/excessive drugging for lameness...

However, with all the unwanted horses out there, wouldn't you rather have a slightly tranqued horse that might be a little unsuitable for his job...

What if he doesn't have the scope for jumpers or eventers? Or the mindset for dressage?

Would you rather have him at the meat factory?

There are only so many pleasure riders out there who are interested in an up thoroughbred/warmblood, etc. What do you do with all those fancy, "up" horses?

Some may say training...And yes, I totally agree. But some horses still need to get that edge off-no matter what their age, etc. And Ghazzu has already pointed out how dangerous lunging can be over a long period of time.

How many pasture ornaments can you have?

I'm really just curious about this-I thought it would open up a new side to the discussion.

"Celebrate we will, 'Cause life is short but sweet for certain" ~Dave Matthews
"Better a live chicken than a dead or hurt duck" ~Judy Richter, Pony Talk

Sandbarhorse
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:40 AM
I have never posted on this thread, but do occasionally lurk as I used to compete locally in jumper classes and when our 2 youngsters are ready may take it up again. I find this topic to be interesting and hope you'll forgive me for "sticking my nose" in.

Isn't the point of a horse "show" to "show off" how nice and well trained a horse is? I, and I'm sure most of you, would not take any pride or joy from winning if my horse was only the best because he was drugged (not the same horse at that point in my opinion).

If a large majority cannot perform without "help" I think it's time to change the standard. I think this is true with the peanut pushing western pleasure QH/paint too, and I admire the AQHA and APHA for making the rules state that such a position is actually a "fault". Maybe hunters need to re-evaluate and push the associations to change the standard.

Maybe we need to think about what is good for horses, both in standards and good maintenance care, instead of trying to make our horses fit what spectators think is "pretty". JMHO. Does anyone else agree?

Mickee Shaw Stables
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:45 AM
And I hope that all of you will post. Instead of HOW WRONG it is to drug or medicate your horse, let's chat about what ALTERNATIVES you take to manage your hot horse or nurse your veteran campaigner around the week long show. NO DRUGS/Meds.

I think that this may be a more insightful way of forming and expressing our opinions on the D&M Guidelines.

Rather than this inciteful mess that has been developing all because a curious bystander wanted some info.

www.MickeeShawStables.com (http://www.MickeeShawStables.com)

Janet
Apr. 4, 2002, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, with all the unwanted horses out there, wouldn't you rather have a slightly tranqued horse that might be a little unsuitable for his job...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What if he doesn't have the scope for jumpers or eventers? Or the mindset for dressage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Low level eventing (below prelim) and low level jumping doesn't require a lot of scope. I would expect that a lot of horse that are competent as 3' hunters would be competent as 3'3" jumpers an 3'3" eventing (training).

The mindset required for low level dressage is simply a decent "work ethic", and an attention span of at least 10 minutes. Any hunter taht doesn't have those is going to need more drugs than just "taking the edge off" for the hunters.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Would you rather have him at the meat factory?

There are only so many pleasure riders out there who are interested in an up thoroughbred/warmblood, etc. What do you do with all those fancy, "up" horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We aren't talking about "nutso" horses here, we are talking about horses who want to play a bit in the corners. There are plenty of pleasure riders intersted in that. AND many such horses, when taken out of the high stress show environment, will probably have less "need" to do the equivalent of playing in the corners.

Some of these horses are very well trained, and would make excellent school horses. Some could drop back to local showing. Or even to rated shows with riders who go to many fewer shows, with lots of turnout in between. Some would make good field hunters.

The one thing that all of these alternate careers have in common is that someone is going to take a financial loss. Not that alternate careers don't exist.

Mickee Shaw Stables
Apr. 4, 2002, 08:16 AM
Well Spoken!

www.MickeeShawStables.com (http://www.MickeeShawStables.com)

Flash44
Apr. 4, 2002, 11:26 AM
Please go back and edit your post where you mistakenly quote me as saying I take Xanax. I did not post that and I do not take Xanax.

I'll tell you once more before I get off the floor don't bring me down...

lmlacross
Apr. 4, 2002, 12:12 PM
I HAVE taken Xanax once or twice when showing (originally presscribed to me for a severe fear of flying). Their error was in taking a quote from my post, where I had quoted from you.

Taking a drug like XANAX to quell anxiety is something I don't have a problem owning discussing, but, to clarify for everyone, that was MY quote, not Flash's.

LML

Ghazzu
Apr. 4, 2002, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cream Soda:
Meandercreek-

I don't know exactly how Dex works however I know that my old barn used this a lot to quiet horses down. However bad side effects include weak hooves and absess'. Now who would really want their horses to get this stuff?

...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For those of you who think a blast of Azium to quiet your horse down is a harmless practice,
Courtesy of Plumb's Veterinary Formulary, a few of the effects of glucocorticoids:

"Glucocorticoids have effects on virtually every cell type and system in mammals...

Cardiovascular System: Glucocorticoids can reduce capillary permeability and enhance vasoconstriction. A relatively clinically insignificant positive inotropic effect can occur after glucocorticoid administration. Increased blood pressure can result from both the drugs' vasoconstrictive properties and increased blood volume that may be produced....

Glucocorticoids inhibit fibroblast proliferation, macrophage response to migration inhibiting factor, sensitization of lymphocytes and the cellular response to mediators of inflammation...

: Glucocorticoids can lower seizure threshold, alter mood and behavior, diminish the response to pyrogens, stimulate appetite and maintain alpha rhythm....

Endocrine System: When animals are not stressed, glucocorticoids will suppress the release of ACTH from the anterior pituitary, thereby reducing or preventing the release of endogenous corticosteroids. Stress factors (e.g., renal disease, liver disease, diabetes) may sometimes nullify the suppressing aspects of exogenously administered steroids. Release of thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), prolactin and luteinizing hormone (LH) may all be reduced when glucocorticoids are administered at pharmacological doses. Conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) may be reduced by glucocorticoids and plasma levels of parathyroid hormone increased. Glucocorticoids may inhibit osteoblast function. Vasopressin (ADH) activity is reduced at the renal tubules and diuresis may occur. Glucocorticoids inhibit insulin binding to insulin-receptors and the post-receptor effects of insulin.


Hematopoietic System: Glucocorticoids can increase the numbers of circulating platelets, neutrophils and red blood cells, but platelet aggregation is inhibited. Decreased amounts of lymphocytes (peripheral), monocytes and eosinophils are seen as glucocorticoids can sequester these cells into the lungs and spleen and prompt decreased release from the bone marrow. Removal of old red blood cells is diminished. Glucocorticoids can cause involution of lymphoid tissue.GI Tract and Hepatic System: Glucocorticoids increase the secretion of gastric acid, pepsin and trypsin. They alter the structure of mucin and decrease mucosal cell proliferation. Iron salts and calcium absorption are decreased while fat absorption is increased. Hepatic changes can include increased fat and glycogen deposits within hepatocytes, increased serum levels of alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT). Significant increases can be seen in serum alkaline phosphatase levels...

Immune System (also see Cells and Hematopoietic System): Glucocorticoids can decrease circulating levels of T-lymphocytes; inhibit lymphokines; inhibit neutrophil, macrophage, and monocyte migration; reduce production of interferon; inhibit phagocytosis and chemotaxis; antigen processing; and diminish intracellular killing. Specific acquired immunity is affected less than nonspecific immune responses. Glucocorticoids can also antagonize the complement cascade and mask the clinical signs of infection. Mast cells are decreased in number and histamine synthesis is suppressed...

Metabolic effects: Glucocorticoids stimulate gluconeogenesis. Lipogenesis is enhanced in certain areas of the body (e.g., abdomen) and adipose tissue can be redistributed away from the extremities to the trunk. Fatty acids are mobilized from tissues and their oxidation is increased. Plasma levels of triglycerides, cholesterol and glycerol are increased. Protein is mobilized from most areas of the body (not the liver)...

Musculoskeletal: Glucocorticoids may cause muscular weakness (also caused if there is a lack of glucocorticoids), atrophy, and osteoporosis. Bone growth can be inhibited via growth hormone and somatomedin inhibition, increased calcium excretion and inhibition of vitamin D activation. Resorption of bone can be enhanced. Fibrocartilage growth is also inhibited...

Ophthalmic: Prolonged corticosteroid use (both systemic or topically to the eye) can cause increased intraocular pressure and glaucoma, cataracts and exophthalmos...[Not to mention the development of fungal keratitis--CMN]

Renal, Fluid, & Electrolytes: Glucocorticoids can increase potassium and calcium excretion; sodium and chloride reabsorption and extracellular fluid volume. Hypokalemia and/or hypocalcemia occur rarely. Diuresis may occur following glucocorticoid administration. Skin: Thinning of dermal tissue and skin atrophy can be seen with glucocorticoid therapy. Hair follicles can become distended and alopecia may occur..."

kenbiki
Apr. 4, 2002, 04:31 PM
Simply put,the horseshow world is dirty business,period...right from the mouth of an ex-roadmanager for the A circuit. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DarkerHorse
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
Quote: "Originally posted by sbt78lw:

Obviously, equine veterinary science hasn't quite made it this far yet (especially because equine doses of such drugs as Prozac would be prohibitively expensive), but I think it's worth considering.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif"

Actually vets do prescribe Prozac to horses I know for a FACT that some show horses in CA are on it, it is often proscribed to cats and dogs too. I think it's usually for cribbing and stuff. I have no idea what the legality of that is.

After reading all the recent problems with physical addiction and withdrawal from Prozac in humans (I have a good friend dealing with that right now, withdrawal symptoms are severe and may be permanent in some individuals) I would REALLY hesitate to give it to one of my animals.

Prozac did stop my roomates rotten psycho cat from attacking people and peeing all over the house and turned her into a normal beast. She's on it for life!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prozac is illegial under AHSA rules

-----
http://www.catchride.com
http://forums.catchride.com

DarkerHorse
Apr. 4, 2002, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lmlacross:
I HAVE taken Xanax once or twice when showing (originally presscribed to me for a severe fear of flying). Their error was in taking a quote from my post, where I had quoted from you.

Taking a drug like XANAX to quell anxiety is something I don't have a problem owning discussing, but, to clarify for everyone, that was MY quote, not Flash's.

LML<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh myyy.. I have taken some xanax bars before. It wasn't perscribed to me, and oh my- I was knocked out the first time I took one. I would NOT want to be showing on xanax. I can't see HOW people take them before they go out at night.. Its like a super tranquilizer.

-----
http://www.catchride.com
http://forums.catchride.com

Royal Blue
Apr. 4, 2002, 09:00 PM
Raises hand about Prozac. My old TB was very neurotic, after spending the GDP of a small nation it was concluded that it was not at all physical. His problem was between his ears - we had him on Prozac & it helped with some of his problems. He is now living the life of the king of pasture ornaments & no longer needs his meds /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Now if anyone can tell me how to give my horse tons more energy I would be very happy. If I ever gave my new guy something to calm him down we'd probably have to check to see if he even had a pulse.

SBT
Apr. 4, 2002, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Please go back and edit your post where you mistakenly quote me as saying I take Xanax. I did not post that and I do not take Xanax.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's fixed now! I am SOOOOO sorry about that! It was a quote within a quote, and I forgot to erase the first quote! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You have my sincerest apologies. /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

lmlacross
Apr. 4, 2002, 09:48 PM
What are Xanax "bars"? Darkerhorse- educate me on this one. I think the reaction you had is typical of those who take Xanax when NOT in the throes of an anxiety attack in that the drug practically knocks you out. For me, unfortunately, my body's reaction to Xanax for show nerves was just as insignificant it was when I used it for flying anxiety-- didn't seem to help at all...my nerves override whatever effect the medication is intended to have. So, sans Xanax, I continue to avoid flying at every turn (drove to Fla last month) AND continue to get nervous befroe my O/F classes.

LML

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 06:07 AM
That is what the blue "footballs" are called here--it just relates to the mg. Bars or Footballs (if blue) are 1mg--which I would not want to show on--it does knock you out. The xanax dosage that most people that I know take to show on is .25mg--same thing for going out and recreational use--otherwise it's nap time ESPECIALLY if combined with alcohol. .25 are round and white, .5mg are peach and round and then they go to 1mg "bars" or "footballs"

While I honestly don't take all this stuff--my younger days were filled with a certain narcotic knowledge base so everyone at the barn calls me the DQ (and the D ain't for dressage) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

BarbB
Apr. 5, 2002, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knowonder:
The xanax dosage that most people that I know take to show on is .25mg--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok, forget right and wrong - if the horse has to be drugged to canter around over 8 fences and the rider has to be drugged to get on that horse - wouldn't it be CHEAPER to match that horse and rider up with different partners?????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:02 AM
Please do not think I am attacking--just responding but if you will go back through this entire thread and read all of my posts, you will see that I am NOT in favor of drugging horses for shows. I personally will not jump a horse that has been drugged with ace/dex/ or anything else. HOWEVER I have severe anxiety about performing in front of people--has nothing to do with my horse--she's awesome. In the 25 years I have been showing, my mother has never been able to watch--therefore--if popping .25 mg of Xanax or taking a shot of tequila before my hunter trips makes a sport that I otherwise love completely enjoyable--I don't have a problem with it--and I just posted to clarify a members question about what Xanax "bars" were. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

BarbB
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:34 AM
(not feeling attacked at all)

I guess I just don't get it.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
I DO understand the fear or nerves, I just don't understand the drugs part - never have, don't want to.

BarbB
ps
my post was intended to be a little tongue-in-cheek /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:40 AM
The only thing I can speak to is my personal experience--when I say nervousness--I'm talking about throwing up before all classes and being so tense that I communicated that to my horses who in turn reacted to that. Had to take a break from showing for a while to find a solution--.25 of Xanax works great for me--it alleviates my anxiety without making me feel sluggish or drugged and I am able to enjoy the competition and the beauty of my chosen sport--do I think everyone should pop a pill for every problem--absolutely not--just that after 20 years of being miserable and showing--because I did love to go to the shows--I found that this works for me.

I sincerely hope you don't have to ever worry about the drug side of it--wish I had the same constitution as you--I'm just a big ole wuss /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And like I said--I didn't take offense and did take your post with a grain of salt--I've just been on this thread for a few days now and I think I'm a little touchy--sorry--not ususally so reactive

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:45 AM
.25 is indeed the dosage I have taken for anxiety. Thanks for the info on the "bars"- Iwasn't familiar with that term (I'm sure I would be dropped to the floor if I took the equivalent of FOUR Xanax).

BarbB- you understand that we're now talking about prescribed medication for a HUMAN anxiety disorder, right? Neither KnowWonder nor I is advocating the use of drugs to render a horse showable. I would hope you could understand the legitimacy of doctor-prescribed drugs to control a diagnosed human condition.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a stigma attached to the use of medications to control anxiety (and most other mental conditions). It's really too bad- those who suffer from anxiety are simply trying, with their doctor's assistance, to find a way to compete with the same frame of mind that many who show do every weekend. It's not a problem of lack of skill or preparation, but simply a performance anxiety that needs to be curbed. Hmmm...perfdormance anxiety...maybe it's Viagra I should be looking into!

LML

LML

Flash44
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:46 AM
Darkerhorse - aren't you a junior and why would someone as young as you be taking a prescription drug that was not prescribed to you? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It is extremely dangerous to take a prescription drug that is not intended for you, or give a drug to an animal that is not prescribed to that animal.

Sara - thanks for your sincere apology. Due to my current employment situation, I can't have any questions regarding my health and state of mind floating around.

I'll tell you once more before I get off the floor don't bring me down...

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:55 AM
Hope my suggestion may help--nice to know I'm not the only neurotic one out there /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Princess Lauren
Apr. 5, 2002, 10:56 AM
PTDeaconHP: "Giving a horse a drug to change him is MUCH worse than riding or longing for a long time to get him/her quiet!"

Actually, I kind of disagree on that. Longing is extremly bad for the horses' joints. You're making it run in a tight circle the same direction for a long time. It wears down their joints a lot. I never ever longe my horses.

-Lauren-
[Vantage Point][Imagine That] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/imaginethat.html).
[Come As You Are] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/comeasyouare.html). [Once In A Blue Moon] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/onceinabluemoon.html).

BarbB
Apr. 5, 2002, 12:23 PM
a couple of people responded, I'm not going to go back and figure out names.....soo...to whoever was discussing this with me....
I fully understand human anxiety disorders and am absolutely in favor of WHATEVER is advised by a doctor to help treat it, that is no way to live.
What I question is taking sedatives in order to compete in a sport that is supposed to be done for fun and recreation.
I am a charter member of the woosie (SP? LOL) club and am sometimes so scared I am tooo rigid to throw up. The good rides and the fun make up for it in a big way or I would not continue to do it.
Outside of a diagnosed disorder that affects your everyday life - why would you medicate your self in order to have fun? If the only way to enjoy the showing is sedated, then maybe showing isn't the right sport. Maybe there is more enjoyment to be had in just doing it, learning, progressing, without showing. I do understand show nerves and I do understand the drive to compete, but the bottom line is that for the majority of us - this is supposed to be recreation.
I'm not judging any person, I just wonder at the mindset that says I am too scared to do this without drugs, therefore I will take the drugs, and this is what I do to have fun and relax and enjoy my horse.
Barb

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

Coreene
Apr. 5, 2002, 12:30 PM
.125 to .25 mg. It's like the Ritalin thing. If you were not hyper and took Ritalin, you would be. If you are, it balances out.

So Ativan can make you dizzy, but if you are already dizzy it balances you out.

And all I can say is thank God that my doctor knows this, because I have big time vertigo after bashing my head, and I find that the little crumble every other night is like magic.

I say this only as a reminder to those peeps who may turn up their noses at these types of medication. So often it is prescribed for something unrelated, or for a chemical imbalance over which one has no control.

AAJumper
Apr. 5, 2002, 12:31 PM
I have no anxiety problems at shows, but I can see why people would want to use medication on themselves if necessary. There is so much more to shows that makes them fun besides your 2 minute round. I know I enjoy the whole atmosphere, hanging out with my barns friends, etc. I guess the argument could be made that you could do the same thing without showing, but I just don't think it's the same. For me, I like being part of the group that is showing, so if I did have an anxiety disorder, I would probably take a prescribed medication, and then voila - every facet of the show would be enjoyable...even my 2 minutes in the ring.

visit www.victorianfarms.com (http://www.victorianfarms.com)

Remi and me
Apr. 5, 2002, 12:40 PM
One of the reasons I got out of the A circuit many years ago was the fact that some of my rides were being drugged by trainers behind my back. I knew something was wrong with the horse I was riding and I got off and handed the horse to the owner and told them I couldn't do that. Nothing has changed for me in my very small opinion. Drugs are for theraputic reasons at home only. If it means not showing - oh well. In my mind, showing is a)fun ,b) to prove I can still do it, and c) show off my horse and his ability (or maybe lack thereof). And the day I have to take something in order to calm my nerves in order to show IS THE DAY I QUIT. I understand that I'm probably from the "old school" but when I'm taking a horse over a course of fences I want to
know what's going on with that horse and not depending on some horse mood altering substance to get me and said horse over over the fences. At least in my mind and heart I know that horse and I did the course, good or bad, depending on nothing but knowledge and established team work.

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:04 PM
In final defense of those who will remain nameless but who have contacted me privately from this thread...Speaking personally--I do not have generalized anxiety disorder--everyday life is just fine. I go to shows and help, groom, even put beginners in the ring and calm their fears all without a problem. When it comes time for ME to go in the ring I am overcome with anxiety. That does not mean that I don't look forward to my two minutes in the spotlight or that I would ever choose not to do it so why on earth would I not--under a doctor's supervision--take a medication that takes the .5% of the horse show that is miserable for me and make it OK? We are not all born with the ability to perform in public. Some of us just need a little help. I'll bet if I had a mantra that I chanted before the class no one would be criticizing but somehow because my help comes in chemical form, some people on this board think I should just choose another sport. I can't post my response to that particular comment because I would get thrown off this board /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And if the person from "the old school" read my earlier post they would see that the dose is a minute one and that the very reason I liked Xanax is because IT DID NOT MAKE ME IN ANY WAY FEEL SLUGGISH OR DRUGGED OR FUZZY IT JUST HELPED ME STAY CALM. I REALLY resent the implication that I substitute drugs for preparation. I ride 5-6 days a week and my mare and I are a team.

The fact of the matter is that people who do not suffer from this to any real degree will never understand those of us that do and I am very saddened to see people on this board who--instead of encouraging or offering alternative suggestions, criticize, say they would never do it and suggest I pick another hobby. Maybe I could if I didn't live eat and breath horses and have for 27 of my 32 years.

To those few who did support--thank you

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Beezer
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:20 PM
I am sorry that you are being pummeled off-thread. No call for that.

While I do not have the severity of your problem, I can certainly understand what you feel because I've been there, too. Still am, on occasion, when I haven't shown for a long while.

Take heart. You are doing what you need to do to enjoy your sport. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


"When I can't ride anymore, I shall still keep horses as long as I can hobble about with a bucket and wheelbarrow. When I can't hobble, I shall roll my wheelchair out to the fence of the field where my horses graze, and watch them." -- Monica Dickens

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Remi and me:
the day I have to take something in order to calm my nerves in order to show IS THE DAY I QUIT. I understand that I'm probably from the "old school" but when I'm taking a horse over a course of fences I want to
know what's going on with that horse and not depending on some horse mood altering substance to get me and said horse over over the fences. At least in my mind and heart I know that horse and I did the course, good or bad, depending on nothing but knowledge and established team work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remi, while I can respect in every regard what you're saying regarding overmedication of show horses, I disagree wholeheartedly with some of your assertions on human anxiety disorders and medication.

Contrary to what you've said about, when someone has an anxiety disorder, taking medication to correct it doesn't send said rider into a chemical haze, nor is that drug responsible for a good performance. For people with diagnosed anxiety disorders, a medication like Xanax balances an off-kilter brain chemistry, returning it to the state that you and all others without the disorder enjoy daily. It allows brain chemistry to return to the state of equilibrium you take for granted.

Thus, the assertion that the drug is somehow giving someone like me an unfair edge just doesn't hold. Xanax (while it didn't work for me) simply clears the brain of chemical misfires-- which would otherwise sabotage years of training, practice, and horse-rider union. It is, after all, those three things which result in a good trip. If they're not there, a rider suffering from an anxiety disorder could perform without ANXIETY on xanax, but still wouldn't be successful.

When a diagnosee performs (for our purposes, rides) while taking the prescribed dosage of xanax, their sharpness, talent and knowledge don't change. The prescription simply allows said rider to make full use of those faculties, when otherwise, anxiety would interrupt access to hard-earned skills, feel, and precision.

LML

Remi and me
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:26 PM
"Old School" reporting in. What I said was that I wouldn't do it-period. I did not chastise you in any way. I just made a conscious choice for myself- that the day I become so anxiety stricken to ride a round that I felt I needed a drug (no matter how much or less) is the day I would stop showing. My decision for me and also my horse. I won't drug him for a show for any reason. Period.
Have you tried calcium? I heard they help to calm the nerves and the side affects to your system are zilch.

Coreene
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:26 PM
Read some of the fear topics. Might be a bit enlightening.

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:29 PM
Again thanks for the support--I normally don't post books or lose my cool /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:30 PM
Coincidentally I have been on Calcium since puberty becasue osteoporsis runs rampant in my family but I really do appreciate the suggestion. But I have to re-emphasize what lmlacross said not directed at you but to everyone--I would not compete if the drug I took enhanced my performance in any unfair way. What I take simply allows me to have "normal" show nerves like the rest of you. I still get nervous and worry about putting in a good trip--I'm just no longer paralyzed by anxiety.

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:31 PM
You got it, sister.

LML

(now where did I put that crack pipe...) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knowonder:
Again thanks for the support--I normally don't post books or lose my cool /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:33 PM
...

Contrary to what you've said about, when a horse has an anxiety disorder, taking medication to correct it doesn't send said horse into a chemical haze, nor is that drug responsible for a good performance. For horses with diagnosed anxiety disorders, a medication like Dex balances an off-kilter brain chemistry, returning it to the state that you and all others without the disorder enjoy daily. It allows brain chemistry to return to the state of equilibrium you take for granted.

Thus, the assertion that the drug is somehow giving a horse an unfair edge just doesn't hold. Dex simply clears the brain of chemical misfires-- which would otherwise sabotage years of training, practice, and horse-rider union. It is, after all, those three things which result in a good trip. If they're not there, a horse suffering from an anxiety disorder could perform without ANXIETY on dex, but still wouldn't be successful.

When a diagnosee performs (for our purposes, jumps) while taking the prescribed dosage of dex, their sharpness, talent and knowledge don't change. The prescription simply allows said horse to make full use of those faculties, when otherwise, anxiety would interrupt access to hard-earned skills, feel, and precision.

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:34 PM
I think I might have borrowed it--let me check my tack trunk--still haven't unpacked from the last show...

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:34 PM
what a well-written post!

LML /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:35 PM
and you guys thought I made unfair horse/human comparisons--horses can't tell us if shows make them nervous or if they are just hot in general--oh Lord don't get me started again...

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Remi and me
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:36 PM
I work in the mental health field and I am very well aware of the drugs available and how they either inhibit or help produce enzymes in the brain. I am also very aware of the different tpyes of therapies available to help folks work through different anxiety disorders. All's I know is that I would not or could not do the med scene. I see the risks that are linked to side effects and I personally would not do it. I never slammed anyone for their personal decisions and neither do I expect to be slammed for mine. I simply stated what I do or don't do. And, I may add, I would never do this to a horse that I owned either. My own opinion. I'll go crawl under my rock now since everyone gets so bent out of shape over my personal opinions.

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:36 PM
By the way, Does anyone know what "Red Shot" is for hunter's to make them quiet?

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:37 PM
What about a horse psychic telling you that your horse has anxiety about showing???? Would that count????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:38 PM
Please don't go away--I just get on my soap box. That's what this board is for--to vent. Lord knows I've been flamed for past opinions and have /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif flamed others in moments of passion (must be one of my personalities not on meds /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:38 PM
I don't think I overstepped. I feel well within my rights to disagree with your assertions about what the effects of this medication truly ARE on those to whom it's correctly prescribed. No need to crawl under a rock- I'm not going to hurt anybody. Sorry if I offended.

LML /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:39 PM
I'm seriously considering a cross country flight to meet you--I think we'd have a lot of fun making fun of myself and others /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:40 PM
Remi--you might want to seek shelter after all--don't know if you can trust a druggie's word

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Remi and me
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:43 PM
You Sure? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Colin: Was this before or after you paid for the consult and was the horsey psychic a memeber of PETA?

lmlacross
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:44 PM
Sure.

LML /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knowonder:
I'm seriously considering a cross country flight to meet you--I think we'd have a lot of fun making fun of myself and others /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most certainly, my dear!

Without my prozac I can't focus the way I need to in order to ride well. Throwing up is no fun - especially if you are on your horse and he's already clean. I would stick to the Xanax for sure! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:46 PM
So if I fly out there does that mean you might share Sea Urchin as well? And you are very right--puke on my nice bay mare--even in my puke green TS's ain't pretty--I once threw up in the air over an oxer--thank goodness no videos were rolling that day /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Quinn
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:47 PM
Well said Colin. That was insightful, intelligent, empathetic, cohesive and without your trademark addition of sarcasm. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I take my hat off to you. I am duly impressed.

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
Well said Colin. That was insightful, intelligent, empathetic, cohesive and without your trademark addition of sarcasm. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I take my hat off to you. I am duly impressed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shhhhh! Don't want to ruin my reputation!
Yes, I would share the great Sea Urchin - but only for a few hours! Can't use up the old man, ya' know....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Coreene
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:12 PM
Regular use of dex @#$%s them up. Period.

And you know I say this to you with a heart still full of Colin Love, because I do love you, but still I think you need to go smoke more crack on this one.

xoxoxoxox

Sea Urchin
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knowonder:
So if I fly out there does that mean you might share Sea Urchin as well? And you are very right--puke on my nice bay mare--even in my puke green TS's ain't pretty--I once threw up in the air over an oxer--thank goodness no videos were rolling that day /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


EXCUSE ME? Me and Colin?? NOT. Share? You needn't travel to the other end of nowhere (that would be Utah, home of Colin, but not much else), just travel to Virginia, where there are real horse shows.

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:20 PM
You are but a half day's drive away and I cut my teeth in VA--I harass Eddie Federwich at VI regularly. He and my trainer are best buds. Come on down to TN--I'm putting on four indoor--yes I said indoor--shows this year. Then maybe it'll be Colin on the plane /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:22 PM
See if you agree with this--my vet explained Dex to me this way. Initially it hypes a horse up which is why one would give it 12 or so hours prior, then the horse experiences something akin to a "hangover" when the dex begins to leave his system and that is why it is used to make horses "quiet" Does that sound correct?

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Weatherford
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:27 PM
Actually, knowonder, that is exactly the theory that I heard from Dr Allen at the USAEq convention...

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:29 PM
It does make sense--most people that I know that use Dex always give it the night before they show

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Remi and me
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:33 PM
Somewhat like the theory behind Ritalin for kids -
It's actually an enhancer that causes the brain to produce counter chemicals so it actually slows the child down?

Coreene
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:34 PM
Yes, that and the fact that regular steroid use @#$%s them up. And us if we do it. Why do you think a peep doctor is so wary of only giving you several cortisone shots? Because it @#$%s you up.

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:37 PM
Can cause founder, decrease immune system, etc. Bad. So we shouldn't use it.

But....what about ace??? Any side effects there??? (local shows of course)

What about ketofen???? Any bad things about that one?

knowonder
Apr. 5, 2002, 02:42 PM
I knew a trainer who used the term "dump the truck on them" in reference to giving them drugs--I'm assuming they meant many or a large cocktail--anyway I always wondered if this was a widely used term or just one he made up? Anyone else heard this one?

Proud Member of Wood Hill Farm who's motto is "I'm not going sober!"

Weatherford
Apr. 5, 2002, 03:02 PM
Will have to check on ace and ketofen, Colin - but i do remember ponies and horses being addicted to whatever it was they were using in the late 60's early 70's - and I've heard watching the ponies go through withdrawals was awful...

Weatherford
Apr. 5, 2002, 03:16 PM
I think reserpine is addictive.

PTDeaconHP
Apr. 5, 2002, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Will have to check on ace and ketofen, Colin - but i do remember ponies and horses being addicted to whatever it was they were using in the late 60's early 70's - and I've heard watching the ponies go through withdrawals was awful...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats terrible!

***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

Colin
Apr. 5, 2002, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
I think reserpine is addictive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>After the stupid vet in arizona gave my 4 year old colt this for SHIPPING - and nearly killed him - I KNOW I won't be getting anywhere near this drug!

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 5, 2002, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GirlNextDoor:



Yikes you guys are rude...perhaps horsesense was merely asking a question ::GASP:: I don't think she was asking for ridicule

Girl<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so at all, Girl. Because when I read horsesense's post, I took it the exact same way Erin did. And Erin, being her witty self, responded. I have yet to see the rudeness?

*Gift of Honor*Gallants Talent*

SBT
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:41 PM
...I, too, shall come out of the woodwork. I suffer from Asperger's Syndrome, generalized Anxiety Disorder, clinical depression, and Obessive-Compulsive Disorder. All, thank God, are mild, but they get bad enough that I do need daily medication to keep me on an even keel.

Without my meds I cannot even leave my house. I could never hold down a full-time job like I do now. My disorders nearly caused me to drop out of high school when I suffered a major episode. There is some question as to whether or not I would even be alive and writing this post right now were it not for the intervention of psychiatric drug therapy.

Now mind you, I do NOT just pop pills and think I'm fixed. I am far from it, and although the pills help, it is still often an arduous, conscious effort for me to overcome the symptoms. I undergo psychotherapy on a regular basis, and my phsychiatrist monitors the meds and the therapy closely.

My meds do not affect my fine motor skills, my judgement, or my concentration. If they start to, my doctor and I immediately adjust the dosage. That is called effectively managing your meds. What my meds DO is enable me to function like any other human being with normal brain chemistry.

If those of you who turn your nose up at psychiatric medications were to experience a TENTH of the horrifying symptoms (read: HELL) I've dealt with, you would be BEGGING your doctor for medicine to MAKE IT STOP. For the record, I tried plain psychotherapy first, along with behavior modification, and it still could not stop the panic. True cases of biochemical imbalance do not respond to such treatments alone.

Imagine being powerless to control the way you feel, completely incapable of adapting to changes in your life, and so socially stunted that you don't even have a normal circle of friends to support you. Imagine not being able to sleep without having terrible nightmares. Imagine not being able to be awake without everything you see causing rushes of panic. You would beg for ANYTHING that could make it stop and allow you to live a normal life.

If a normal life for me means I have to take pills every day, then so be it. If it means I will be on those pills for the rest of my life, then so be it. It will be a far better life than I would have had without them. If it means I will deal with long-term effects, so be it. There is no way they could make me feel as bad or any worse than I would without the pills.

Do I wish I didn't need the meds? Hell yes. I would LOVE to be medication-free. Maybe medical science will come up with a way for that to happen someday. But for now, I am on the meds and I am not ashamed, because I know what my life would be like without them. I would rather take meds and deal with the stigmatism than NOT take them and have to live in terror. That is what it comes down to for me.

Don't disregard a person's treatment before you've experienced their disease.

No flames intended, of course.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Duffy
Apr. 5, 2002, 07:55 PM
Sara. What can I say but a big "wow" and thank you for your post. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif