Breakdowns - age, or training and care?

[Thoroughbred]

I've been thinking more and more about this issue. It would seem that 2 is a very young age to race a horse, and that such early racing could be largely responsible for many of the breakdowns that occur. But is that really the main factor? People have said that the horses of years ago were much tougher than they are today - they raced more often and into older age. Are our breeding programs different, or are our training and health care methods different? "Old-timers" like Preston Burch believed in methods that favored soundness, stamina, and longevity, even with the classic races for 3-year-olds. Is our focus now shifting to early (age) speed with less regard for stamina, longevity, and ultimately, soundness? Years ago, fewer medications were available. Now, it is hard to find a whole race card with one horse that isn't on Lasix. Many racehorses - including Sky Mesa - are routinely raced on bute. Just like ailing humans (and dogs, cats, etc.) that are subjected to conventional treatments, racehorses are loaded up on drug after drug on top of the drug they're already on. Take Sky Mesa as an example. Kenny McPeek said he was going to be given bute for the Juvenile. If the tendon strain had occurred just a day later, the bute would have masked it and Sky Mesa would have run on an unsound tendon, likely with disastrous results. Conventional, modern treatments, generally, are founded on masking the symptoms that warn us that something is wrong - and if he don't heed the warning, we will eventually cave in or break down. Racehorses are not spared this absurdity. Is it not so much the age of the horse, but the management of it, that really matters in the tragic end?

[Lauruffian]

I say management plays a huge role.

Trainer Bruce Headley has been working with horses for over 40 years. He has never lost a horse to a life-ending injury on track...ever. This has been documented in the Daily Racing Form. (He has lost horses due to illness and colic, however.)

Bruce handles his horses with extreme care. He very rarely races two year olds, and even his three year olds are raced sparingly. As a result, he has not had exceeding popularity with owners who want results earlier and bigger.

When a horse is sore for whatever reason, he gives them extended time off. Royally Chosen, a stakes-winning 4-year-old, (I believe) bucked a shin. She's been given nearly 8 months off, enjoying the rolling acres of a large ranch, resting, standing in icy river water to treat her joints, and basically having plenty of time to be a horse...no pushing to Be Ready to RUN ASAP.

It's this kind of treatment that enables Headley to have 7, 8, 9, even 10 year old stakes winners in his barn--and no breakdowns.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

[War Admiral]

Let's not forget that conformation plays a huge part too, as well as training and care. If a horse has inherent defects conformationally then that horse is much more prone to break down than an equivalent horse of "correct" conformation.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Reads Forums At Work Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thoroughbred:
Now, it is hard to find a whole race card with one horse that isn't on Lasix. Many racehorses - including Sky Mesa - are routinely raced on bute. Just like ailing humans (and dogs, cats, etc.) that are subjected to conventional treatments, racehorses are loaded up on drug after drug on top of the drug they're already on. Take Sky Mesa as an example. Kenny McPeek said he was going to be given bute for the Juvenile. If the tendon strain had occurred just a day later, the bute would have masked it and Sky Mesa would have run on an unsound tendon, likely with disastrous results. Conventional, modern treatments, generally, are founded on masking the symptoms that warn us that something is wrong - and if he don't heed the warning, we will eventually cave in or break down. Racehorses are not spared this absurdity. Is it not so much the age of the horse, but the management of it, that really matters in the tragic end?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And on what study are you basing your comments? Do you have factual information regarding the drug levels present in racehorses? If you look at the number of horses that race every day and the number of positives that come up, they are few and far between. The vast majority of trainers operating at the higher levels of the sport are clean. I can't speak for the bush tracks, but I've been around the NY_KY_FL and mid atlantic scene for a while.

From my conversations with vets and trainers, I see a big increase in joint supplements such as Legends, Adequan, gluco, etc. These are nutraceuticals, and are not drugs. They are beneficial to most horses and do not have any side effects. They are legal.

These horses are athletes, just like football players, hockey players, baseball players, runners, etc. There will be injuries, and most of them will have aches and pains somewhere at some point in their lives.

Most trainers, riders and grooms are fond of the horses and very attuned to each horse's peculiarities and daily condition. My husband "heard" a couple days ago that Rock of Gibralter lost his coat. The horse was still training good and feeling good, but he didn't really run his race, did he?

Aiden O'Brien was quoted as saying that the American pace is much faster than the one in Europe. Which I guess reflects our emphasis on speed. As great a sire as Mr. Prospector was, he was unsound and passed that along as well.

Lasix has been proven to increase a horse's performance, and you would be stupid not to use it if you can get your horse on it. Just because a horse is on Lasix does not mean he gushed blood. The vet could have found a drop of blood way down in the horse's lungs, which is pretty much normal.

[This message was edited by Flash44 on Oct. 28, 2002 at 10:02 AM.]

[Flash44]

and if you go over to the Horse Care forum, you will find many many threads on injured and sick horses that are not race horses. They are backyard horses, show horses and horses that are doing no where near the same amount of work as a race horse.

[ejm]

<<Take Sky Mesa as an example. Kenny McPeek said he was going to be given bute for the Juvenile.>>

FWIW, Sky Mesa is trained by John Ward, not Kenny McPeek.

Management is a huge factor, but horses in the barns of very capable, conscientious trainers do break down. Hats off to Bruce Headley for an amazing record, but I truly believe that other trainers of comparable skill and compassion have lost horses on the track that gave every appearance, even to the most skilled horseman, of being quite sound.

This may be a very unpopular point of view with many people, but, is it better or worse for the horse to spend its entire life with top-notch care, suffer a devastating breakdown, and be euthanized immediately, or to spend its entire life lacking adequate food, shelter, caring human attention, and veterinary care, and die at some point as a result of neglect, benign or otherwise?

[Clive's Mom]

I think we all know or have heard a story about a horse breaking its leg in the pasture? I know of at least 2. Horses get training injuries all the time - in dressage, hunters, jumpers, barrel racing, you name it.

Not sure I'd be out to flame the TB racing trainers 'just yet'. If you flame them, you need to go and hit the eventers....foxhunters.....jumpers....reiners.....

[War Admiral]

I'm *so* with Clive's Mom on this one. My rescue TB never raced - he is strictly a victim of the A Circuit, where he was jumped to the point of death, drugged up, and jumped some more. When he couldn't even *walk* any more, they dumped him at a feedlot auction.

There are cr*ppy people in every discipline. And racing in fact I think is making such a conscious and discernable attempt to clean up its act that it may very well end up leading the pack in this regard! At least racing has long since *acknowledged* that there is a problem. I've yet to see any such thing from USAE.

Of *course* they race too young, etc., but I think the market dictates that. If *owners* started saying "I don't want my horse raced until it's 3" things might change.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Reads Forums At Work Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique

[Thoroughbred]

I'm not condemning racing at all or comparing it to any other sport. I'm talking about the current situation and what's causing it. And when I said "drugs", I meant legal medications. The word "drug" doesn't necessarily mean cocaine or marijuana. That's not what drug stores sell - they sell Aspirin, Motrin, etc.; all legal medications. You get the point. And sorry about the misprint - I did mean to say John Ward, not Kenny McPeek.

Janet Del Castillo has much to say on medications in her book, "Backyard Racehorse". I think she has a lot of excellent points. The situation basically is no different than with humans - the pharmeceutical companies are making millions by playing with our health and "trying to fool nature", if you will. But it's worse with racehorses, because when one is given an anti-inflammatory medication (not to offend anyone with the word "drug"), they may pay a severe price, when the painless yet unsound leg - which looks sound because the natural healing process of inflammation has been artificially suppressed - is injured in a race. The horse may bow a tendon, injure a fetlock or tear a ligament - it is said that the horse "took a misstep". Maybe the horse was just running on a leg that looked and felt sound because of the symptom-masking medication, but really wasn't.

Furthermore, how many racehorses are allowed turnout? Being stalled for 23 1/2 hours and then galloped on a hard track, is very unhealthy. According to Del Castillo, this is the scenario that makes a horse prone to breakdown. Add to this a whole cocktail of medications and injections, and it's no wonder why so many people have been turned away from racing because of the injuries and deaths that occur.

People also don't like hearing what the "L" next to the name of every single horse in a race means. It's little consolation that there's a medication for lung hemorrhages - any caring person would say, and rightfully so, that so many horses shouldn't be bleeding in the first place! (I've even seen first-time starters on Lasix.) Obviously something is wrong. Del Castillo has taken horses off the bleeders' list simply by giving them some R&R in the pasture, allowing their lungs to heal themselves. Interestingly, she also notes that MSM/DMSO could possibly be a cause of bleeding. She was instructed to give a certain dosage of DMSO to a filly she was training. She did exactly as she was told. At the same time, a friend of hers was suffering knee pain, and decided to try DMSO on himself. As soon as he began taking the DMSO, he began having massive nosebleeds that often required him to go to the hospital. He stopped the DMSO, and the nosebleeds stopped. He resumed taking the DMSO, and the nosebleeds resumed. Meanwhile, the filly on DMSO was galloped, and bled. Still on DMSO, she was given Lasix, and she bled through it. Pure coincidence? I think not. It's happened all too often that medications and remedies had to be recalled, or at least warned against, after enjoying enormous popularity, because not enough studies had been done on it initially to realize there were serious side effects.

These ideas aren't popular, but no holistic or classical principles have gained - or regained - much popularity yet. Why? Because money talks, and old habits die hard. Unfortunately, the victims die hard too. Being a "convert" myself - that is, from conventional, modern riding methods to holistic, classical horsemanship - I think it's always worth rethinking the current system.

Again, I am not trying to condemn horse racing. But we all know that many horses have broken down, and continue to break down, and that's a problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for answers to problems.

[saratoga]

Thoroughbred,
I started a thread similar to this one a while back and got a lot of defensive responses. It seems that if you try to discuss known problems in a horse sport, many people will jump in, comparing it to other sports and say, "Well, its no worse than what happens to many hunters/Tennessee Walkers/backyard horses, so why let it upset you?" Well, honestly these things do upset me, I guess I am too sensitive.

I read Janet DelCastillo's book about 5 years ago and found it very interesting. Back then I was planning to get my trainer's license and I really thought that she had good methods that an everyday horse person who wanted to get into racing AND was concerned about the welfare of their horses could follow. BTW, I mentioned it here to see if anyone else had read it and someone made fun of it. I decided not to pursue training though, because I just saw too much @#*& on the backside and it was not a place I felt good about spending my life.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ALL drugs were eliminated from racing (Not that that will ever happen.) I personally think that breakdowns would decrease but there are so many other factors involved too. My husband thinks that horses bodies (in general) were just not built to handle that level of intensity and stress and that breakdowns really are part of horse racing no matter what we do.

[Flash44]

Not everyone has access to such wonderful riders as Mr. Bluejeans and an orange grove to gallop their horses through. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And I'll say it again because it is worth repeating: The vet only has to see ONE DROP of blood in a horse's respiratory system to prescribe Lasix. Just getting the scope down there can cause one drop. Just because a horse is on Lasix does not mean the horse gushed.

And the amounts of most drugs that are allowed to be in the system of a horse are so minute that it is argueable that the drug has no effect on the horse at that level. Most of the drugs given to horses on the track are VERY SIMILAR to those in your medicine cabinet. Do you have anti inflammatories (like ibuprophen), cough syrups, decongestants, vitamins, minerals, joint supplements or antibiotics? I've taken all but antibiotics during the past year. Does that make me a junkie? Am I unhealthy?

[Thoroughbred]

I'm not one to give up and back down just because I don't like what I currently see. I didn't turn away from dressage because the majority of today's dressage riders have corrupt methods and ideals (from the horse's point of view, at least); I found what was right - classical dressage - and now, one of my main goals in life is to spread the truth. If I am so lucky as to be able to get involved in racing, I hope to do the same in this discipline as well. If you know something is wrong, fight it, and go down fighting if you must - but don't just turn away and ignore it.

Truthfully, I actually don't like the fact that Del Castillo's horses live so close to an orange grove. Groves are heavily doused with dangerous chemicals that survive in the soil for many years, so this is not favorable.

Actually, Flash44, that's quite a lot of medications you've used in the past year. Except for an antibiotic for what my doctor said was strep throat, but turned out to be an incorrect diagnosis (it was an irritation caused by iced tea) - and that has me really mad - all I've ever taken in the past few years was an occasional underdose of Motrin when I really needed it. I try to avoid any kind of medication as much as possible, and get along just fine - even through colds - without it. But that's kind of besides the point.

[Flash44]

Since I'm a working mother and often have to sacrifice what I know is good for me (like sleeping, exercising, eating a good meal, etc) for kids or work, some things are just plain out of my control.

Ibuprophen - I run and ride, but these activities can be inconsistent due to my busy schedule. Hence the need for occasional ibuprophen.

Cough syrup and decongestant - I have seasonal allergies (thanks, dad) and my son generously shares whatever bug he picks up in school. I have over 150 sick hours credited to me because I never really get sick enough to take a day off work. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Vitamins and minerals - everyone should take them.

Joint supplements - again, every athlete over the age of 20 should take them.

Antibiotics - I will only take them if I have some kind of raging infection, and don't even use antibacterial soap or hand wipes. I think the last time I took antibiotics was when a horse struck me in the head and cut me, about 8 years ago?



Thoroughbred, how can you possibly formulate such strong opinions on how to train race horses when you have never worked in racing??? Get a clue.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I've stated this in other threads, but to me it seems to be the basis of so much that is "wrong" in any horse discipline.

Trainers have to have owners or else they wouldn't be in business.

Owners are usually in the business because they want to WIN WIN WIN! And they want to win RIGHT NOW!

With so much money currently at stake in the two-year-old races, they are pushing young horses harder than ever before. Why? Because the owners want to WIN! WIN! WIN!

If a trainer isn't producing winners for his owners, the owners dump the trainer like yesterday's news and go find a trainer that will do "whatever it takes" to get a horse to the winner's circle.

So the trainer often does what is necessary to give the owners what they want, which can sometimes produce a promising colt that will never make it because he fractured his ankle at the ripe old age of 22 months.

So, what is the answer?

Who wants to be the one to make two-year-old races a thing of the past? Who wants to be the one to make the Triple Crown a campaign for five-year-olds? Who wants to be the one to make it a law that you must disclose any orthopedic corrections made to any Thoroughbred under the age of three?

No one, because any of these would be a devastating blow to the racing and breeding industries. But in my mind, that is what needs to happen to stop them from pushing these babies until they break.

Rest in peace, Landseer.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[duramater]

You also need to remember that the trainers get a percentage of the purse. It is in their best interest to win. They can not live on day rates alone. Winning is the name of the game and that is how we stay in business. Please dont assume that all owner race their 2 year olds. I sure dont. I have a 2 yo that is still at the farm growing up. He told us that he was not ready to race, but now he is starting to say different and will be at the track in the next couple of weeks. However, last year I did run another 2yo because he was ready. He had no trouble and did not break down. I stand behind my trainer, and if the horse is not winning, we look for other alternatives to try..(equipment change, training , nutrition, etc). We (owners) are not evil people, we care about our horses!

[poltroon]

I am generally a fan of racing and don't have a problem with it in principle.

I am not a fan of 2 year old racing particularly, but many horses that run at 2 live long, sound lives. I worry more about the blistering speed that they go for in the 2-year-olds-in-training sales, and the fact that most of these horses don't get any long, slow, distance work.

Breeding fast but unsound horses doesn't help.

And, of course, there are management issues that some trainers use, like bad shoeing (long toes, toe grabs), etc. They are not unique to racehorses.

Bute certainly doesn't "numb" a leg - it is just for aches and pains. But what 2 year old or 3 year old should be running with aches and pains in the first place? I don't mind bute for older jumpers and dressage horses, but I really dislike its use in baby racehorses. If they ache, they should have time off. Worse, if they ache, you can expect them to compensate in the gait, which can lead to more damage somewhere else.

There are a lot of new techniques for finding and treating problems early, like thermography. I hope trainers will use them and they will prove beneficial.

[Thoroughbred]

I agree with Poltroon. And as for the fact that I'm not a trainer? You don't have to be a racehorse trainer to know that bute isn't a substitute for a totally sound horse, or that horses stay sounder and healthier when given turnout than when stalled 23 1/2 hours a day. I'm calling for more holistic care of the racehorse, that's all - and I think it could make a big difference.

One thought about Lasix and heart attacks. Lasix is a diuretic. In other words, a bleeder may become slightly dehydrated before a race. For me, if I go too long without drinking water, and then exercise or take a shower, I get heart palpitations. Clearly, lack of proper hydration puts stress on the heart. Overheating is also a major factor, and when you're working hard (and thus sweating) and not drinking water - and, insult on top of injury, on a diuretic - you're going to get severely dehydrated and overheated. This could account for some of the heart attacks suffered by racehorses and eventers.

Again, all I'm asking for is more natural and holistic horse care. That's all!

[hitchinmygetalong]

My apologies if anyone took offense at my earlier post. I certainly don't mean that ALL trainers and ALL owners are greedy and care more for winning and $$$ than they do for the horses. Thankfully, those types seem to be in the minority. But unfortunately, they are there.

I still hate two-year-old races though. And I agree 100% with Poltroon about the two-year-old-in-training sales. Having an twenty-month-old colt breezing an eighth in ten flat on a deep track? It just defies common sense.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Flash44]

Bute use has decreased with the increase in equine sportsmedicine and alternative therapies that help prevent and heal injuries. As a runner, I begin taking ibuprophen the night before a race because I know I will be exerting myself and will be sore after the race. It has nothing to do with soundness.

There are training centers where horses can be turned out part of the day such as Payson Park and Fair Hills, but trainers have to pay for stabling there. REalistaically, you will never have adequate turnout for all race horses in training. A horse that is racing fit is usually too rambunctious to be turned out in anything larger than a round pen. The risk of injury is too great. They all go to the farm for a rest every year anyway.

[Showpony]

Some break downs just plain come under the "S#!t Happens" catagory! In racing and in the pasture.

I know there are horses that break down who seem to have been perfectly sound and happy before the race. It is the nature of the stress of running, same to some degree with cross country jumping.

However, I also know of some terrible, cold, callous
things that are done/said at the track as well as other disciplines.

I have to admit it gets harder and harder for me to watch races and own racehorses. I have seen so many racehorses break down(not ours) with tragic results that I find myself just hoping no horses break down...
I don't seem to have that problem watching horseshows!(or owning show horses)

When discussing fatal breakdowns in horse sports, to me comparing racing to almost any other horse sport is like comparing apples an ornges(sp). There is no comparison.

Does anyone know of any studies done on the percentage of fatal break downs per sport?

I think in all disciplines serious/long term injuries would be less if people stopped trying to cover up injuries to keep the horses going and tried to cure them instead. Like someone said about the trainer with no breakdowns. In addition to changing the narrow mindedness of the breeders who breed for speed without regaurd for soundness and brains!

[Thoroughbred]

I just thought I'd add Gary Stevens's opinion to this. I was reading a review of his book, "The Perfect Ride", which mentioned this (note my italics): "Stevens gave us his opinions on where the sport is going. He is against race-day medications, since masking the pain allows horses who shouldn't be on the track to run endangering the lives of both the jockeys and horses. Also he observed a decline in the quality of everyday racing since he started twenty years ago, citing year-round racing and shorter racing careers for horses as major culprits. 'Where horses were once raced for their owners' enjoyment and the beauty of the sport, a great many horses are now raced just for money." Bravo, Stevens! I think he should speak out more publicly - not everyone is going to read his book. (I haven't yet, but of course I'll have to now.) First of all, I am 100% in agreement with him about race-day medications. Little more needs to be said. Secondly, it's interesting that he cites year-round racing as a problem. I guess horses who are headed down the Triple Crown trail and then are aimed for the Breeders' Cup, should be given a summer break? I forgot who it was, but a certain well-known trainer mentioned that he finds himself giving his horses middle-of-the-year "vacations" to keep them fresh for the Breeders' Cup. I guess that's the way to go, and certainly the summer is as good a time as any to give a horse a break - it's too hot to be running hard! I also agree about the short racing careers. When a bunch of super-wealthy Japanese breeders are waiting to dole out millions for your Gr. I stakes winner, it's temping to run him hard as a 2- and 3-year-old (burning out some horses who might otherwise have been very successful) to win as many races and as much money as possible before shipping him overseas before he even turns 4. This, of course, not only robs the sport (and the country, when the horse is indeed sold to foreign breeders) of long-term champions - versus 2-year wonders - but also sets up for breakdown.

Thank you, thank you, Gary Stevens, for speaking out. I absolutely agree.

[Zevida]

Well, the year round racing isn't so much about giving horses a break as it is about raising the quality of racing.

Compare, for example, the Keeneland, Del Mar, and Saratoga meets with the Santa Anita, Belmont, and Churchill meets. The former run very short meets with extremely high quality horses. The latter run very extended meets that go on and on and have less quality horses.

By limiting the number of races, you can raise purses, create more betting interest by having larger, compeititive fields, and have better horses racing in those races.

One of the big problems with the Gulfstream winter meet (which is rapidly losing its best horses to the Fair Grounds) is that they have 12 races per day! That is WAY excessvie! They end up with 5 and 6 horse fields most of the times, which the bettors don't like. This causes the bettors to bet elsewhere, meaning the track ends up with less money to offer and the quality of racing declines even more. The Gulfstream meet should be shortened (run one fewer day per week) and they should have 8 races per day with maybe 9 on Saturdays. Maximum!

"We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are." M E M E N T O

[Flash44]

Gulfstream had to increase the number of races because so many horses could not get in. You had to have at least 3 stars to get in the field! We'd have horses there for 4 months that would only race once.

Thoroughbred, maybe you should focus on the politicians who rewrote the tax laws that made it economically impossible for most people to race horses for pleasure. You seem to think everyone has limitless amounts of money. Horse owners and trainers are businessmen, and very few people are in it just for the fun of it. Most people will tell you that they love horses and racing, but they can only lose so much money. Life is not fair, which you will not understand or appreciate until you get older.

I don't see Gary Stevens refusing to ride horses that he knows are racing on bute and Lasix. If he really cared that much, he would tell the trainers he won't ride a medicated horse. And if he really believed it masked unsoundness, he would not get on the horse anyway because of the danger of serious injury to the rider (and other riders) should a horse break down during a race.

[Thoroughbred]

Flash44, I don't think I should even dignify your comment with an answer. If only I had enough money to own a racehorse! I am the last person on earth who should think that everyone has limitless amounts of money, and I know first-hand that life is not at all fair. Don't think you need to tell me. But no horse business should be viewed strictly as business, because horses are animals, not machines. Some people don't seem to realize that. And when it comes to money, bute, Lasix, Banamine, Adequan, bronchial injections, joint injections, etc., surely aren't cheap. Many ailments (not all, but many aches and pains, even bleeding, according to Del Castillo) can be healed just by giving the horse a break from the stress of training, and maybe some massage for sore muscles. You can buy a TTouch or other massage manual for $15, hands are free, and grass is cheap. The holistic way is actually less costly in that sense, but there may be less to gain financially because the horse is running less often. In my opinion, a horse should be a horse, and if you can't accept that, get a race car instead.

As for Gary Stevens, I don't know about the horses he rides. I don't know what he says or doesn't say to owners and trainers he rides for. All I know is, what he said about race-day medications is very true.

[Showpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:

Thoroughbred, maybe you should focus on the politicians who rewrote the tax laws that made it economically impossible for most people to race horses for pleasure. You seem to think everyone has limitless amounts of money. Horse owners and trainers are businessmen, and very few people are in it just for the fun of it. Most people will tell you that they love horses and racing, but they can only lose so much money. Life is not fair, which you will not understand or appreciate until you get older.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Sadly the horses suffer for it.
Owners/trainers can only "lose so much money" at the horses expence. The reason for medicating, over racing, masking instead of curing...money and pride(trying to save face in front of owners).

Really we can all argue this to death (already done that!) Nothing will change!

[Lauruffian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showpony:
Really we can all argue this to death (already done that!) Nothing will change!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree with one small part of this point...something will change, slowly over time likely, in how racehorses are handled.

Whether it is a positive change remains to be seen.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

[Flash44]

Why exactly do you think Del Castillo is the be all and end all expert in horses? I'd rather go with the theories and practices of long time successful trainers such as Schulhofer and Wittingham. And horse do need rest, and they do get it. You rarely see them racing year round, they always get several months of rest.

Legends and Adequan are usually injected into the muscle, most people do not like going into joints. And they are therapeutic, and nutraceuticals, not drugs.

If you really really want to help horses and LIVE IN MARYLAND, go vote for Erlich today.

[On the Farm]

Getting back to the original questions for this thread, Thoroughbred Times reported last week that a ten year study in Britain did uncover a correlation between age and breakdowns. However the conclusion was definitely not politically correct as it disclosed that horses who make their first starts at age four are twice as likely to break down as horses who begin their racing careers as 2 year-olds. Of course this conclusion only goes to reinforce other research in this area (specifically Nunamaker's and Bramlage's) showing that horses need to have their bones stressed at an early age to build the proper density to withstand racing.

Since the questions of training and care seemed to gravitate toward the issue of medications and the difference between "modern" versus "holistic and classical" (whatever the heck that means) horsemanship, I can only say that today's medications can be used to treat horses in a more humane way, or they can used to the point of abuse. That applies to all discplines, whether its racing or showing. A specific mention was made regarding the use of Lasix in bleeders. First, horses have been bleeding for many generations and even a small, undetected bleeding episode can be potentially life threatening to a horse. I believe that prudence calls for prevention instead of reaction. Yes, bleeders can and have run without Lasix, New York didn't allow it until the mid-'90's. However, the "holistic" prevention involved witholding water for a far more extended period of time than the current four or five hour drawing period when using Lasix (or at least that's the draw periods we use.) What is more humane for the horse-drawing him for twelve hours or more, or using Lasix and drawing for four?

[Zevida]

On the Farm:

I also tend to quote those studies as proof that there is no proven direct correlation between early age racing and breakdowns because many assume that if racing just started later, breakdowns would cease to exist and all would be well. So I'm definately on that wave length with you.

But I also do like to point out the problem with that study that I know of. And that is that nearly every racehorse who doesn't start until four does so because they had an injury that kept them away. So, since they already were injured, they are predisposed to be injured again. This could account for why they have more injuries, because they had a history of them. I don't know if that was taken into account in the study, but it is just something to consider.

"We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are." M E M E N T O

[On the Farm]

Zevida,

The thought about the older horses being predisposed to injury was also the first thing that went through my mind, as well as the minds of most people that I have discussed the article with. I really would like to see a more detailed analysis of that study to see if our idea was addressed in it. Seems to me that if the study was a scholarly work then it would have to stand up to that type of scrutiny. Someone at another BB pointed out that the study also included hunt races on the flat and that alot of those horses do start racing at a later age. But again, I would like to see something in more detail.

[jrz]

The public (ie, us) needs to put more pressure on the racing industry to stop some of the abuses. I don't agree with racing two year olds.

[Cherry]

What a can of worms!!!

I really am sick of the line "Life is not fair!".... The reason? Because life can be fair, but it takes you and me and the other guy to make it that way! That's why God gave us brains... There used to be a line making the rounds some time ago--"what would Jesus do?". I know what Jesus would do, and I know what I'm going to do--but what are you going to do? Unfortunately there are always going to be low lifes associated with racing because there are no good safeguards for weeding them out...

That said, I think the horses that race in the upper echelons of racing probably are not as much at risk at those horses racing at the bottom rungs (like Penn National, et al)... Some of the problem is just pure greed...

I've heard before about that study that shows that racing two year olds are good for them--I'm not convinced. But then, I don't own any racehorses. Even so I don't think I could race two year olds with a clear conscience.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I have Janet's book, but haven't had time to read it yet. I first heard about her back in the seventies through a blurb in Equus and thought to myself, "Hmmmmm... What a novel idea! Take care of the horse and he will take care of you. What a refreshing concept!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Up until that time I was very much against horse racing... I still think something needs to be done to lessen the number of catastrophic breakdowns--whether it's because of the horse's diet, the amount of drugs used on them, the condition of the tracks--whatever! I just hate to see these horses destroyed and people just act as if this is normal and just a part of the cost of doing business! There has to be a better way!

I'm on Janet's "Backyard Racehorse" site on Yahoo--have been for two or three years now. When I posted about using homeopathy on my horse and asking if anyone used it on their racehorses I was flabbergasted at the response!!!! More than one person wanted the subject of homeopathy banned on the board!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif This is coming from people who are supposed to be upholding the use of little to no traditional medications for racehorses... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I thought it would be a perfect place to explore the use of homeopathy, but was I ever mistaken! The board has gotten better over the years now that more people have joined--but in order for things to change attitudes have to change!

Medications have been implicated for weakening a horse's skeletal system, studies have implicated the diet TBs eat, my husband (who bets on the ponies) says it's simply a case of too much mass atop too fine of a leg... Much has been made about Salix (aka Lasix) being a performance enhancing drug, and Andy Beyer (a handicapper) has made mention of the infamous "Lasix pop" in his writings. The fact of the matter is that Salix almost definitely will enhance the horse's first or second trip, but after that the positive effects are negligible, but the downside is it can screw up the horse's electrolytes. One of the guys on the BYRH site had one of his fillies crash during training at the racetrack because of Salix use!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

It would be a godsend if owners would educate themselves about what a horse needs and how to better pick a trainer--and then have the good sense to defer to the trainer's decisions! Very often an owner will insist on running a horse when the trainer knows the horse needs to rest--that's ruined more than a few great racehorses!!!

There is an answer out there, but it's a very complex issue and it needs to be sorted out and acted upon, which no one seems to have the time or inclination to do. One of the people from Backyard Racehorse, a former jockey, started a site on Yahoo entitled Change Racing (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Change_Racing/). It was started two years ago but has been languishing so if any of you want to join that's the place to try and sort out this puzzle.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unfortunately there are always going to be low lifes associated with racing because there are no good safeguards for weeding them out...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, it's these sorts of statements that perplex the hell out of me.

Are you telling me that low lifes aren't 'always' going to be associated with the other disciplines? I think there are enough scandals involving serious horse abuse in sporthorse disciplines to prove that wrong. No other discipline has the system to weed out lowlifes, either. And at the very least - in racing, you actually have to pass a test to become a trainer (or jockey, or .... etc. etc. etc.), which is more than I can say for anyone else - ANY jackass can hang out a shingle in the H/J (or eventing, or dressage ...) world & call themselves a 'trainer'.

The thing that irks me about all these discussions is that people act like it's JUST racing with a problem, or that the money involved in racing inherently makes it bad/corrupt/whatever. Yes, it's a business with a lot of money - but so is the rest of the horseworld (referring to the upper echelons here). People aren't spending $500,000 to buy little Suzy a top pony for fun & to trailride - they're spending that much money to try & ensure that Mr. Pony will do his job, and pack little Suzy around to blue ribbons at the biggest shows. And THAT doesn't have an effect? It's going to be ok if the half million dollar pony starts bucking little Suzy off during the hack?

There's all sorts of questionable practices all over the place - doesn't matter the discipline. Yes, they start 'em early with the TBs, and have a problem with that all you want to, personal opinion & all - but don't act like racing is the bastard stepchild of the rest of the horseworld. I've seen things that made my hair stand up on end in the show world, too.

I've said this before, but I think it has a lot to do with how our culture treats animals in general. They're DISPOSABLE to a lot of people. Plain & simple. Dogs, cats, horses, whatever. I mean, we have people who think that watching two dogs tear each other to pieces is entertainment, people who think that barbequeing live kittens is fun, and some people who are just too plain stupid to realize that domesticated animals can't just fend for themselves & need human help to survive & thrive. Are there people in racing who think the horses are essentially disposable, or just dollar signs on hooves? Yes. But it's not just limited to racing, it's all over the horseworld. At least racing is trying to do something about the problems in their systems - can't say the same for some of the other disciplines.

[spirithorse]

As a racehorse trainer and other venues I can personally tell all of you that the majority of big name owners, breeder, and trainers do not want the health and welfare of the horse as the primary concern. If that was so than the Salix use would be banned, as it documented to be a performance enhancer and does not not stop bleeding.

Also the industry moguls are not willing to fund research that will prove a piece of equipment change will have a tremendous impact on eliviating breakdowns and injuries to horses and will eliviate the use of Salix.

Also the industry moguls are not willing to fund research that would change how the jockeys ride so that they would have less falls and thus less injuries.

The horse racing industry treats its horses and its backside people as throw away disposable objects to attain glory and wealth.

All that said is about the biggies, for the little guys and gals in the racing industry appear to have a whole lot more concern for the horses and the people. And what is sad is that if the little guys and gals would unite they would have so much more say than the biggies.

[CuriousGeorge]

"I can personally tell all of you that the majority of big name owners, breeder, and trainers do not want the health and welfare of the horse as the primary concern. If that was so than the Salix use would be banned, as it documented to be a performance enhancer and does not not stop bleeding."

These statements are almost laughable. The health and welfare of the horses is the main concern of everyone I have been exposed to in the racing industry. Without a sound horse, no one profits. Where's your documentation for Salix not stopping bleeding?

You would be amazed at the efforts and care I have seen some "major players" - and some not so major ones - extend their horses. Unfortunately, I can't name names or tell you specific stories because of client confidentiality.

As for not being willing to fund research and the supposed throwaway mentality you think the major players have, that's bunk. In the past both Keeneland and FT have set up funds to allow buyers and consignors to donate a small percentage of their accounts to the Gluck Center and/or to retirement programs. This is in addition to the money Keeneland donates to many charities every year.

[SeaOat]

THOROUGHBRED.....Janet del Castillo is a fool, something QUICKLY realized upon setting foot on her farm. After spending short *time* with her you quickly understand it's all about self-promotion & making $$$ off people who don't know any better. Cripes, those ridiculous books. Her FIRST PREDICTION was in miserable shape with bleeding rain rot and painful foundered BARE feet when I saw her. Luckily she finally died. She would lay in the hot sun unable to rise, sweating, for hours while Ms. Castillo gallavanted to lunches saying "just throw water on her if she looks too hot (while she was down).
Don't believe everything you read, nor the true feelings of some that endorsed her. She's a salesperson, full stop.
"Unhealthy" is breaking horses w/ "Mr. Blue Jeans" (talk about messing up a horses mind....& the real reason red filly was a nut), and other disastrous things we witnessed. My favorite was her running them "freely" in her tattered field & seeing one jump a car (parked in a corner INSIDE field) & landing in middle of junk-pile of spoked outdoor TV antennas. God, there was SO much more.
Unhealthy is TRYING to work (WORK!! Not just gallop!!) horses in orange groves with wire fencing on one side and trees on the other and traffic on a busy road to cross should you get run off with by one of her fruit cakes. Even on a modern race track there are horrible morning accidents. I'm sorry, did I say she was a fool? No, a more a liability to any poor person wanting to break into racing & <hoping> she makes good sense. Gee, how easy she makes it all seem. I could go on....but you HOPEFULLY get the pic by now. She's a hazzard. She couldn't train leaves to fall off trees. She got lucky with that wonderfully classy filly First Prediction, proving even bad trainers can't keep the good ones down.
Oh, and most tracks have draw times on bute & most other drugs, to the person who inquired about that.

[SeaOat]

SPIRITHORSE...Janet del Castillo want's to do lunch with you.
Anyone who's interested in goofy behavior, check out previous posts by our good Rev. Sheese, another baseless sales person. (Gotta love his cheesy site, where his horse jumps a tilted jump post in first sequences but it goes upright by last shot....what, jump-elfs fixed it in flight?

[Barbara L.]

I have to ask this question of the Janet DelCastillo fan club members: How many races has she won (or what is her win % in the last 5 years)? I have not been a fan of her backyard racehorse training methods.
My experience in racing has been vast: I have worked in management, a good many years in publicity and television, and many more years in the training end of it.
I have very mixed feelings about what goes on at the track in ANY department: from mutuels, to racing office to backstretch care of the horses.
But, I would not want to be involved in any other industry I'm not going to get involved in any debates about the use of medication vs. holistic treatment.
I do, however, believe that the majority of the folks who work with the horses: exercise riders, trainers, grooms, etc., do have a great love for the animal.
It is a money business--you pay a million dollars for a yearling, you cannot wait til he's four to put him in training.
I have to ask, how many of you that are making such black and white criticisms of racing have ever been to a major racetrack? How many have stood at the rail in the a.m., gone back to a barn to see what happens to the horses and where they go for the rest of the day, and how they are cared for?
If you all can say you have spent a year involved in the dsy-to-day activities on the backstretch of an American racetrack, the I will respect your opinions--good or bad,
But if you have only rescued the forgotten from killer sales, "heard" about jockeys and whips and cruelties, and only read Delcastillo's book, then I cannot really take your commentary seriously.
One more thing: joint injections and racing surfaces are two of the major reasons for breakdowns on the track. Not two-year-old racing, not the fact that the horses are not turned out, but the abuse of the joints, and the unevenness or "fastness' of the tracks.
ALL JUST MY OPINION>

[spirithorse]

SeaOats and Curious George you are a good one's for slamming people, especially those you do not know and have no knowledge about what they do. I feel sorry for those around you that are effected by your lack of integrity.

[CuriousGeorge]

I'm not slamming anyone. You're the one slamming the "major players".

[SeaOat]

Rev. I keep myself in fine company, thank you, reason enough I do not know you.
My integrity stands on it's own in an industry filled of people & horses that I have loved, & been in the thick, most all of my life.
So go pokey thy nose elsewhere, entertaining as your type may be this business/sport has nothing to offer you.

[drifting cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaOat:
So go pokey thy nose elsewhere <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif This is a most entertaining thread!

[Layne Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> showpony And Sadly the horses suffer for it.
Owners/trainers can only "lose so much money" at the horses expence. The reason for medicating, over racing, masking instead of curing...money and pride(trying to save face in front of owners).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm have you seen the the real BNT's in the show horse world's back sidehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's not pretty same thing different sport. I have seen worse in that world then I have in racing. They just hide it well http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Carol Ames]

Isn' this a question of being a "serious" cocompetitor vs.being a good horseman?, and, also fortunte enough to have the finances to be independent.or a weaeLTY OWNER who, is also a good horseman?

[SeaOat]

Hi Carol,
There is SO much that factors into keeping horses sound during their racing lives. Racing 2 year olds is fine when the individual horse (as some mature or hold up better than others) is taken into training consideration. Also owners vary...some are more patient than others which trickles down to the trainers choices. Some owners are fine to go with the flow, but maybe it's the trainer who is pushy. Smarts & talent play into it...like any tradesman, not all trainers should be in this game. Drugs are not prominant in EVERY trainer's program, but most all trainers use what it takes to keep a horse going. Some over-use.
Time is of great value...the best know time cannot be forced along any faster, cutting corners & rushing will cost time in the long run. Keeping up a racehorse is too costly to err w/ time.
There are some drugs that I wish the horses could run on (certain blood pressure meds, for example) & others that are over-used in training. Most all have draw times keeping them out of actual races.
Being a serious competitor AND a good horseman, as well as fiscally wise (if not wealthy) are all components of a good race stable. Knowing WHERE your horses should run is showing grounded sense....lofty dreams kill pocketbooks & animals.
I read your profile & wish you all the best in a speedy recovery.

[monicabee]

One of my major fears on getting involved in racing was the endless replay in my mind of that horrible moment when Ruffian broke down. I have personally witnessed two breakdowns, and still find it hard to deal with, as do most people at the track on either side of the rail. No one profits from these losses, and they are the nightmare of every owner, trainer and jockey. That is partly why it is so hard to get statistics on the subject.

Racing and race horse ownership has changed over the last 30 years. New owners and international buyers have been blamed for the increasing commercial pressures in the industry, but the truth is, horses used to run a lot more as two year olds than they do now. An old timer I have spoken to told me that in the 50's the New York tracks was populated with "guys from the garment district" who decided to call themselves trainers but had never even gotten on a horse. The "good old days" when horses were sounder were talked about then, too. I wish I could find an old quote I had about a similar look backwards - written in the 1870's!

The truth is racing is a difficult, sometimes brutal test of a horse. There is no way to entirely take away the risk to animal and human participants. Yet without racing, the thoroughbred (and warmblood) would not exist. It is the quandrary of all horse owners - while we make much of our connection with the animals and their willingness and heart, there are economic forces that pressure us to treat them as commodities whether we choose to acknowledge them or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One more thing: joint injections and racing surfaces are two of the major reasons for breakdowns on the track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that joint injection could actually prevent deterioration of the joint - as long as it isn't overdone. I suppose it is often overdone?

[doublete]

I think that people who have no experience IN the race world get the most upset. Until you've been on the backside, grooming or TRAINING your own, it is hard to stand back and objectively (or is it subjectively?) look at the situation. I personally don't use bute on my horses every day. Don't need to. If they're sore, then they shoudln't be there. But you'll be darn sure they're on the bute list the day of the race. I keep an eye on them, so there's nothing that bute will be masking- it will be helping keep that horse's muscles from getting sore and generally just do what a little ibuprofen does for me.
I had a breakdown earlier this spring- just a condylar fracture that the vet thought had been there all along (he raced 3 times on it) but finally in March of his 3 y/o year he took that step that did it. He's fine now. And should be the rest of his career. We went very slow with him as a 2 y/o. He started once in August and again in November. Not again till January 22nd when he won. He's over at the knee, and without that conformational fault probably never would have fractured.
I have another horse that ran hard as a 2 y/o, and now he events at 5 y/o. He won $49K+ in good tough company, and has not a single problem.

But as for criticizing us (race people) for not 'treating our horses well'... They get incredible feed, and they get out on the walkers, they get groomed better than most show horses, and you'll notice many trainers and grooms doting on their horses. At least I do. I bring a bag full of grass for one a day (all I can manage). As for no turnout... One of mine goes ballistic if he's turned out. He can't stand it. Another couldn't really care less where he is as long as he's got food. These horses don't know what a day full of turnout is, they're high enery, (hyperactive usually) animals that learn their routine and get incredible set in that routine. (one of mine checks his watch for his feed and if I'm 15 minutes late you better bet I'll hear about it). Yes some trianers have unhappy horses, but that obviously isn't the majority.

Honestly, take a good hard look at the race industry. yes horses break down, yes *some* people suck and don't train their horses correctly. A horse up here broke down during the MORNING, which is pretty bad. But, it is FAR from the majority.

[SeaOat]

I tap joints that NEED it. A fair deal of trainers tap to tap, whether needed or not. Tapping a joint that needs it relieves pressure, and if there is a lot of blood in the serum (assuming a tiny vessel wasn't hit, which looks different) it can let you know your horse may have a chip or errosion.
There are acid injections that are sometimes used, steroids like methylprednisolone (depo), and such....much the same as what humans receive. I often follow w/ an oral steriod to help maintain the ankle/knee/hock whichever.
The reason you would not want to tap/inject a joint just for the beans of it, is you risk infection. You are pushing a needle into a closed cavity in less than perfect conditions. No matter how long you scrub, there is the CHANCE of pushing a hair, piece of dust, etc., into the joint, which can have nasty results. Plus tapping what little serum is in a joint (when you see just a few drops being squeezed out, not a SPURT) removes needed lube, IMO.
Anyway, tapping only works so many times as joints only hold up so long....they errode, a removed chip goes fine for awhile but often the joint will begin to crumble, etc.

[Barbara L.]

I said injecting joints is one of the main contributors to horses breaking down because the process is overused on many animals. If a trainer uses the less expensive cortisone (which many do), it actually deteriorates the joint after many treatments.
Hyaluronic acid, the natural joint lubricant, or the pharmacological equivalents of it, are often expensive, and even still, if a horse needs a rest, or has stinging ankle, the administering to the joint in oder to keep him running can be to the detriment of an animal who just has too much wear and tear.

[ejm]

I have been involved in various facets the TB business for about 25 years, mostly working for others but also as a small-time breeder and owner. Breakdowns are the worst part of the game, and tragically many cannot be prevented. One of the most talented horses we bred broke down on the lead in his 4th start, an allowance race at a major track, and I was sick about that for months. This may sound cold to some of you, but after a lot of reflection, I have decided that I'd rather sell a horse that later breaks down racing and is euthanized within minutes, after a life of excellent care, than sell one and hear later about how it died of an untreated injury illness, or unattended foaling, and/or after a long period of neglect, as happens to far too many backyard horses with supposedly caring owners.

[SeaOat]

ejm: It's interesting but that is a discussion we just had earlier today. My SO is a track vet and there are quite a few trainers who would also rather put a horse down, even when fairly repairable, than give away. There are so many horror stories of nice horses people have placed in homes, that have gone very bad. These trainers feel sick about it but can't bare having them placed badly again.
This is going to enrage a lot of you out there, but when dealing with the VOLUME of animals envolved at just one track, nevermind three or more in a state, it's really hard to find good homes when you need them. Even with the good organizations around helping. And people who mean well & want to adopt right off the track may not be as equiped to do so as they thought. We have two horses sold to well meaning people now who are finding their farm was not as turn-out ready as they thought, one filly recently spent the night out *running* the country roads. She's reinjured a suspensory on the mend that these people were told (& how) would take time, & now they want us to buy her back. We told them she'd have to be in one paddock for awhile, before cutting loose in the bigger field w/ others & they didn't listen, plus turned her out first time in early evening. If we don't take her who knows what next. People in this sport PAY DEARLY for loving/caring too much. Easy to see why some turn it off and think of them as numbers after awhile.
Anyway, a bit off subject: Hear our soapbox cry to NOT breed TB's....so many nice ones to choose from (from sales to freebies to racing), all ages, types & degrees of soundness. Show horse people need only attend a decent mixed sale once to realize it's a Disney World of offerings for a few hundred $$$(saving a life buying those at any age) to a few thousand, and all SO much cheaper than buying private! And way better than breeding your own!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Barbara L.]

I definitely agree!
So many people think thy are doing the right thing with an exracehorse--a horse who is used to a clean stall, regular meals, regular exercise and daily schedule, grooming, and being handled by people all day-- and then wonder why the horse falls apart when they stick him outside (say it's natural!) and don't ride him regularly.
I hate and am sickened by breakdowns as much as any horse lover would be, but most of these horses were cared for up until the minute they become fatalities.

[seal]

I find it highly ironic when show horse people get upset about all the breakdowns at the racetrack. Unfortunately, I have witnessed it several times and it is always heartbreaking.

Having said that, the average racehorse is MUCH better taken care of than any pleasure horse or even a horse in a BNT's barn. I have a very good friend who used to work at the track as an exercise rider, and she constantly tells me stories of how the horses are taken care of at the track. She once worked at the barn of an internationally known BNT and she was shocked to see how poorly the horses were looked after.

I, in turn, have mimicked her care and I can't tell you how many times I am mocked for spoiling my horse. I am told that water buckets are spoiling a horse as is making sure the hooves are clean before turning back into a stall. Cleaning a leather halter is overkill to many people. I could go on and on.

In short, there is horse abuse in almost every sport. However, you must pass a test and get a license to train at the track unlike most horse *trainers*. I really don't see horse racing to be any more *evil* than any other horse sport. Only at the FEI level are all drugs banned--even for the riders--caffiene is not legal and many vets would like to see the USAE follow the lead of the FEI. That way the welfare of the horse would have to come first. When all drugs are illegal a horse can be given a painkiller after a show, but then the horse must rest in order for the drugs to clear the system thus preventing a sore or unsound horse from competing again. The only alternative for FEI competititors is rest.

If we are really serious about cleaning about horse sports, we should first lobby the USAE to follow FEI rules and then go after the racing industry. On second thought, it will most likely take many lifetimes to clean up our sport, so in the meantime I suggest we not cast judgement on other horse sports until such a time this miracle has transpired.

[Cherry]

Well, in all fairness this is a discussion about racing so remarks made about the racing industry are not out of line... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I think most people involved in horses would agree that there are problems in every facet of the horse world...

I think what I meant to say is, even though the racing industry wants us to think the industry is highly regulated there are simply some things they can't regulate, hence my remarks about less savory types in the business...

In fact, just a few years ago there was a huge scandal at Penn National Racetrack--trainers and jockeys conspired to fix races. I see that the racing commission's safeguards worked well in that case... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Of course, the evil doers were caught and prosecuted...

As far as a Janet DelCastillo fan club, I don't think there is one Barbara, only people who think her ideas are a breath of fresh air. Why does it matter how much she's won??? She's just trying to eek out a living with horses--I don't view her any differently than John Lyons, or Pat Parelli or anyone on this board who tries to make a living at training horses... I have a lot of respect for Janet in that she has the courage of her convictions, has published her own book and seems to be making her dream work. Far be it from me to rain on her parade!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All that testing trainers proves is that the trainer can regurgitate back what the testers want to hear--it doesn't prove the person being tested can, or will, implement what he/she knows. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Carol Ames]

Wasn' here a study done of race horses who .had broken down?, rimarily in CA, which, showed thst most had had a previous injury in their spine? i can easily believe thst, and do know that "myfoals", at lazy Lane who, ivisited each afternoon in their pasture, where I would watch their "foal races', by late Fall of theirfirst year, showed signs, of injury in the lumbarsacral region, sometimescoliosis, and, that the vet who, was there thenext day said "thy've got a"roached back", which, to me was a "cop out, as, I knew that that had not been true theday before.Unfortunately most vets ,and horsemen have ben been trainedto ignore horses'backs, and know very litle about healthy backs,or what good massage therapy accupuncture, and chiropracticcncan do,very few have experienced the changes in a horses' performance, and in the stall,hich occurs when a back condition is relieved; It is my firm belief tht, if people would learm aboutthe horses' mssage therapy has been proven time, an again to make a diffrence in the performance, especially of race hores,and, I would like to see all trainers inall disciplines learn sports massage therapy, as well, as what a healthy back looks like, aand feelslike unfortunately the standard thinking is, "You can't do anything about a soreback anyway"The understanding that lower leg problems often begun higher , in the hiorses' spine. is seldom conveyed.

[SeaOat]

Cherry: Janet is a farse. Read what I wrote earlier, and that was just a small sample of her crap. She's NO horseman, just a lazy smooth talker. In all fairness, I can't say that she's always been that way, though zebras don't often change their stripes. This has nothing to do with having read her book & not in agreement with most of it's content, more that I found her REAL-life habits very slack and a sham and HARMFUL to the horses. I will say I found her to seem very kind and charming upon first impression & hoped to walk away with something useful...
Having briefly known her, I can't for the life of me see what any horseman would find refreshing. I was quickly disgusted.
I also agree w/ Barbara in thinking her current standings as a trainer do reflect in LARGE part on her practices. One can be kind to their horses AND know what the hell they're doing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DonnaR]

Sea Oat?

It's no wonder that Sea Oat cries "boo hoo" when the topic is Janet Del Castillo.
Sea Oat flunked Janet's seminar! Yes, actually flunked! That is... was asked in
mid-seminar, after a series of mishaps, not to return! Of course, this dolt then
got very indignant etc. and refused to pay, and later the Winter Haven police had
to be called in to restrain him. My husband and I, and the other attendees intent
on learning something, felt very sorry for this person, Janet, and the whole situation. How do you deal with someone who repeatedly falls off a horse and
then, in some kind of perverted "revenge" (I'd guess you'd say) tries to kick
it unmercifully! It was one of the most shameful afternoons I've ever spent.
I presume Sea Hero knows who I am, but what the heck. I don't care. Everyone
is entitled to their opinion, fine... but it's a shame that incompetent pretender types need to express them. And, of course, the loudest blowhards can be critical when they demonstably can't even sit on a horse! Donna

[SeaOat]

DonnaR.....SEAOAT is a her not a "him". Nice try http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I also NEVER took one of her seminars (this could explain why I wouldn't remember you), but did visit her place on several occasions w/ a friend who briefly rented a house from her. From your description of the man who was arrested, it sounds like Janet is still attracting same-ol-same-ol trainer wanna-bees, who else would attend those things after reading a few chapters in that book? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Barbara L.]

Cherry said: "In fact, just a few years ago there was a huge scandal at Penn National Racetrack--trainers and jockeys conspired to fix races."

Fortunately, Penn National is not exactly the kind of track the industry holds up as an example of high quality.

Cherry also said: "As far as a Janet DelCastillo fan club, I don't think there is one Barbara, only people who think her ideas are a breath of fresh air. Why does it matter how much she's won???"

Why does it matter how often she has won? Are you kidding? Don't you measure someone's success by how well they do in the industry they choose to preach about? I don't know any succesful horsemen who never win races, do you? Sorry, that is the way you guage success in the racing world--not how fat and happy your horses are, or how many books you sell.

Racing is a business, and while it is true that your peers are not always the best to judge you (racing people think she is a little off, too), the numbers in your win column are important, or at least your win % is.

I stand by what I said in that earlier post.

[The Fjord Jockey]

DonnaR:

Man, does your line of BS ever sound familiar. Didn't you state many months ago that you knew me and that you witnessed me jump off a horse and start whipping it repeatedly? Only then, I believe you were using the ID "Chevy Jocky", "MarieS" or something.

Or maybe there are TWO people on this forum who like to make up absurd stories about people who don't like Janet Del Castillo. It's probably Janet herself. At any rate, you better keep those brain storms flowing, because there are TONS of us in the racing industry who think she is the biggest boob around.

I just love how she reccomends galloping in Jofa hockey helmets. That right there should clue you in as to how big of a maroon she is.

[SeaOat]

OK, I had to look online to see what a Jofa helmet lookes like. SOUP; Did JdC really suggest those, & where, in her book? Yikes, I'm having flashbacks now. Just remembered a JdC story this guy told at Calder years ago....about while he worked on gate crew at Tampa, Janet (either herself or some poor kid off her farm, I can't remember details) took a horse for a work-&-go and the rider was wearing a WATER-SKI life vest in place of a flak jacket. I can believe it.....they do get a lot of rain in Fla http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Anyway, try to hop a link to a Jofa helmet site so you too can get a visual giggle as I just did. Yeash. New topic starter....what is the oddest thing you've ever seen atop a horse? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Showpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Layne Farm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> showpony And Sadly the horses suffer for it. Owners/trainers can only "lose so much money" at the horses expence. The reason for medicating, over racing, masking instead of curing...money and pride(trying to save face in front of owners).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm have you seen the the real BNT's in the show horse world's back sidehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's not pretty same thing different sport. I have seen worse in that world then I have in racing. They just hide it well http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So whats your point?? I know it happens everywhere, in every equestrian disipline. THIS thread happens to be on racehorses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am well aware of what goes on behind the scenes at the track and at the horseshows, I am personally involved with both. I know how some "BNT" operate both at the track and at the horseshows.

Bottomline is my conscience can't handle seeing catastrophic breakdowns time and again at the racetracks and the "oh well" additude that some people have. Drugging and abuse goes on everywhere, I just don't care to see horses going down like that at the track (which is why I am backing out of the racing scene!). My personal perspective, I don't expect anyone to agree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I also have to disagree that racehorses are better taken care of than show horses. It depends on who is taking care of either (or any horse for that matter). Every type of horse can be taken care of just as well or just as poorly as the next!

The racehorse having a "great life" and being put down quickly helps some people deal with it, but not me. If that were the case, everyone would put there horses down instead of trying to find them good homes...because what if they don't get good homes? I do agree there are too many ex racers than there are good homes for them and people should carefully weigh out breeding and the future of the foal.

I think I'll put 2 flame suits on NOW!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Albion]

You know, I'm probably going to get flamed for this -

- but I don't think it's the people who are carefully breeding two TBs for sport & a specific goal who are causing huge overpopulation problems in the TB world. Frankly, I would MUCH rather see a concientious mare owner take her prize-winning & beloved hunter and breed her to, say, A Fine Romance - in hopes of producing a fantastic horse for sport & combining two wonderful animals - than people breeding horses that will NEVER be anything more than bottom of the barrel racehorses.

I worked at a lower-level racing barn, and I saw a LOT of horses by so-so local sires, out of mares that washed out on the track. It's pathetic. We had one mare who was a failure on the track - they tried her on the dirt, they tried her on the turf, they tried her at MD tracks, they tried her at Colonial, they tried her at Charlestown. They tried her in the mud, and they tried her when it was sunny & dry. And she couldn't run - at all. Her dam had never produced anything of note (actually, she had never produced any offspring that were even REMOTELY successful on the track), and the filly was by a so-so VA stallion. What did they do with her?

They hustled her off to the breeding shed, so she could go on & have a wonderfully unproductive career of adding to the overpopulation of truly awful racehorses. It was a scenario that I saw repeated over & over & over again in the span of, oh, 4 months. THAT, to me, is more of a problem than Suzy Q. who is concientiously breeding her mare to a carefully selected stallion to produce X sort of mount.

Now, I galloped one filly who had fantastic bloodlines & really hasn't done much on the track. She'll probably wind up in the breeding shed, but at least she has the bloodlines to back it up. Most of these mares didn't, and were being bred to cheap stallions who hadn't produced much. I'm against badly planned, willy-nilly matches in the sport horse world - but not everyone WANTS an OTTB, and I don't think the blame for the TB overpopulation can be placed squarely on the shoulders of breeders for sports other than racing.

[SeaOat]

Albion.....There are also the SALES where horses are, frankly, better put together than most of the "prized" sporthorse produce that I've seen (and I have seen a bit), that as well are selling for much less. No one says one must limit themselves to OTTBs. People in both sports breed a LOT of garbage. Forget those who breed the OTTBs, which is totally idiotic.
I work in one of the top race stables in this country...I can't see a good bit of our EARNERS being reproduced, nor thankfully can most of our more sensible owners. And we run through some VERY well bred/handsome individuals. Animals many sport horse breeders could spend a lifetime TRYING to breed near the quality. Breeding TB's is in large majority an unbalanced WASTE of %s. Full stop.

[Albion]

SeaOat, the nicest filly I ever sat on - and one who had the looks, movement, conformation, AND temperment to be an absolute A circuit prospect as a yearling, and I've been acquainted with a few HOTY horses - was by Gone West out of a stakes-placed, stakes-producing mare. The aforementioned mare who hasn't done very well on the track. Lord Helpus said she's probably worth 6 figures in the breeding shed.

She was a no sale at a yearling sale earlier that year at $95K. A bit out of my price range. Out of ALL the horses I rode, she was the one that had the FULL package. She is NOT going to wind up on CANTER, and I couldn't have afforded her as a yearling. My favorite filly that I picked out at the Timonium 2 year old in training sale this year went for $120K (yes, yes, I KNOW the 2 year old in training sales are NOT the place to pick up a cheap prospect).

The other horses in the barn that would've made nice sporthorse prospects - well, even when they were 3 & hadn't been fooled with much, the trainer would ask outrageous prices for them. $15K for a three year old that moves OK, can't really tell how he's going to jump (1 foot high cross rails set up in the shedrow don't tell you that much), dunno how his dam jumped, and sire is known for producing sprinters (or whatever)? Uh, no thanks. I'll take a known quantity - which is my point about people breeding their mare to a sport horse stallion like A Fine Romance - who is very well-bred, and has offspring competing in multiple disciplines & doing well, and has competed successfully himself in eventing & jumpers.

Breeding TBs for sport is NOT a full waste - I daresay that offspring of "Fred" will have a much easier time finding homes than my badly bred babies by Rock Point who have run under bad trainers for a $4K tag for the past, oh, 3 or 4 years. Why don't you harp on THOSE people to STOP BREEDING? Many of these sorts of owners *I* was acquainted with had MULTIPLE mares & MULTIPLE foals on the ground every year. Multiple unless-fate-has-a-really-good-sense-of-humor future utter & absolute FAILURES on the track. NOT multiple horses BRED to be hunters/eventers/dressage horses/whatever.

[SeaOat]

ALBION: I said "People in *both* sports breed a lot of garbage". And I do "harp" about breeding to anyone who cannot improve & CONTRIBUTE to any breed, be it dog, horse, or human for that matter! Surely you're not saying, because you've run into a few good TB sporthorse breeders, that there aren't a dozen (or more) BAD breeders for every decent one. On every forum here there is always someone posting bloodlines (big deal) & pictures of ones that should never be reproduced. Race breeders do such as well. Fools abound.
I have a very talented race trainer friend who scouts cheapies & freebies off the track for re-sale as hunters (her sister re-trains & sells, as hunters are her thing) and she's done VERY well. Years ago she bought her first home with the money she made off of ONE free OTTB gelding, her first effort & it's been going well ever since. A lot of very beautiful, initially pricey, and well bred animals do not always (more often than not) turn out to be racehorses, sooooo they end up cheaper by far than the over-all cost of a homebred. Have a doz. examples of that in our barn now.
Sorry to disagree, but I know you don't need to spend big bucks to get some very talented horses who are no longer able to race....& sales are still a great place to bargain hunt for people who know what they're doing. I didn't find your examples to be in keeping with the real possiblities available. I also know sport horse sales rely HEAVILY on the presentation & fashionability of the trainers doing the buying/selling as well as the both's popularity. It's more a game of who's who than down-right horse flesh & bone. Very expensive & silly stuff (& so limiting!). The joke w/ race people when selling to show people (for the most part) is making the price HIGH enough so the perspective buyer feels like he's getting what he pays for. Try to be nice & give the horse away & no one wants it, go figure.
I stand firm by my statements that people in ALL sports OVERBREED while overlooking some very nice possibilities already walking around & at their fingertips.

[Albion]

Of course there are BAD sporthorse breeders (FWIW, I have run into more good ones than bad ones - but maybe I've just been lucky).

My point is that if you want, say, an A circuit hunter prospect & you REALLY want a known quantity, why in the world SHOULDN'T you go to a breeder who is using quality, PROVEN stallions (for hunters, one who has proven himself IN THE RING and/or and through his offspring) with quality, PROVEN broodmares (who have proven themselves in the ring and/or through their offspring). Most racehorses are bred to be RACE horses (obviously), NOT hunter prospects, NOT jumper prospects, NOT dressage prospects, etc. etc. I haven't come across oodles of young race prospects (yearlings, two year olds) that I could take out of the stall, clip, bathe, and braid & take to a show like Upperville - show on the line & bring home a ribbon. Yup, they're definitely out there (and I've galloped at least one, probably more), but if they were just oozing out of the race world, wouldn't more people be patronizing CANTER et al.? I found the NICEST horses were already "promised" to people (for free, of course, after their career was over - barring a hugely successful career) - usually to friends of the trainer/owner. The NICEST horses (as far as sporthorses - NOT neccessarily the nicest race horses) that were in the barn I rode for were NOT for sale, even if you walked in off the street & offered $20K. The so-so ones? Sure. The really fantastic ones? Nope. Not even to riders in the barn.

I'm not sure what sort of sporthorse sales you're talking about, but the breeders I worked for didn't send their horses to auction, people came to the farm (or to a show) to try the horse out. Yes, presentation DOES matter. Of course you want to present the horse at its best - I haven't seen too many nasty, unkempt, muddy things go through TB yearling sales. Go to a big show that offers hunter breeding classes, and watch the handlers. There are a million different ways to make a horse's best features pop out & any problems melt away. I've met enough "no name" handlers that have brought home wonderful ribbons from prestigious shows (like Upperville) - it's not just a game of who's who. The best handlers often take home the top prizes, but they also tend to have the nicest horses & the best skills. Believe me, the breeding world has no problem screaming "Politics! Politics!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[SeaOat]

Albion....there's so much bologna/baloney in your last post it's tough to know where to begin. And since you are obviously set in your opinion, I won't waste your time further teaching you how to get a nice horse for less $$$.
Your, "Most racehorses are bred to be RACE horses (obviously), NOT hunter prospects, NOT jumper prospects, NOT dressage prospects, etc. etc" statement is bunk. No kidding, they are FIRST bred to (hopefully) run but certainly are NOT LIMITED, by any stretch, to an oval. Someone can probably give you a very long list of A circuit racebreds.
You say, "I found the NICEST horses were already "promised" to people (for free, of course, after their career was over - barring a hugely successful career) - usually to friends of the trainer/owner." Yes, I suppose you're right about that....we do get tired of dealing with outsiders who give us nothing but a headache....guess that's why I mentioned people on the backside who scout around for these NICE RACEBREDS to re-sell for big $$$s to people (like you) through others w/ an established name in whatever the show medium.
There ARE a lot of "hugely successful" retirees for free, as well as some real racing failures...we don't care about any past performance stuff when looking for a new home. It does sound like you may be limited in your contacts while I'm not. As for the general public, CANTER does have some VERY nice prospects (!), just not fancy handlers nor the buyer's trainer/riding instructor to add in their under-the-table % of the price.
Your line about muddy unkepts is rather out of the blue as well. Have no idea what you're talking about there....only in Europe did I run into ungroomed sales horses, that's where TRUE horsemanship was required to see the super-horse underneath. Just as true: horsemanship is needed to look past the sale-gloss to see the faults. Guess that's why you feel a good handler is needed?
As far as sport horse sales, I never mentioned them....I said sales (period) and am refering to racing TB sales. In three days a decent horseman can have THE WORST of THE WORSE yearling ready to tolerate SHOW grooming. In 1 week said horse will be on the line and ready for Devon. Maybe you & your contacts are limited to buying from sport breeders who can hand over a pricey finished product. I'm trying to save others their $$ and give some folks an option & very good reasons NOT to breed. You're not a prospect but hopefully others will que in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[SeaOat]

Albion..oops! I did say "sport-horse SALES" (I meant "sells", but it really still applies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif since breeder shows are in a sense the same concept. Where as race sales/sells are more about the horse than the source).
For others interested, another bargain sourse, or getting more for a bit less anyway, is knowing *when* to buy at a sale (Sept. Keenland, for example of the biggest & best).....towards the last days of a sale you can find very good horses from smaller outfits, who for nothing other than a low head-count, are pushed back & thus going for MUCH less (right along side the stock that COULDN'T go up the first days because of quality). You can also go back & talk to those w/ horses you liked who did not meet their reserve, & re-inquire about their horse. They will often sell privatly for a price you will want to meet.

[CuriosoJorge]

SeaOut, I think I agree with Albion on this one.

If I want to buy a yearling as a hunter prospect, I want one that comes from a known hunter sire, and a dam that either had a show career herself or has produced other successful show hunters. Why should I risk buying a yearling racebred TB, no matter how attractive it is, at Keeneland September? For one, it's probably going to cost more, even if you buy it at the tail end of the sale, and for another, it lacks the family history of showing that the first horse will have. Of course that is only one predictor of future show ring success, but it's nice to have.

I also have to question your statement about a good horseman taking a TB yearling out of a field and having it Devon strip-quality in a week. Hunter breeding horses, and even the TB yearlings who get sales-prepped appropriately, have a lot more than a week's worth of work put on them to make them look the way they do. You don't get a coat in shape in a week, much less teach Junior to walk and trot in hand while respecting the handler's space, or to stand himself up.

[SeaOat]

Curious....(great name by the way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Keenland was a very high $-end example, but you will note they have tops in coats (why do people think most race horses are dull, quite the opposite!!), and in a few days are walking, jogging, standing (for hours on end, all day long, some learning AT the sale), on a line W/ hundreds of people around them. I don't think I said out-of-the-field. Anyway, not completely finished & ready for the show-ring of course, but my point here is: a horse, even a race-bred, can be ready in *short* time with the right person. It's not something special for special-breds. Most race horses are handled inside out in fast time. No one off the track can comprehend just what we mean by handling.
Having a hunter sire/dam isn't a great predictor at all, I feel, as I'd bet most have race lines pretty close up anyway.
Again, my friends who scout on the track are looking for certain types & re-schooling with great success. There's enough proof in the pudding that I certainly wish I had the ability to school hunters. When we have taken serious show people backside, they are really amazed at what's for sale & the prices. IF someone has the ability to buy a horse they can gain a definate financial edge over breeding. If you don't have an eye to buy, I don't think you can have one to breed. And most breeders shouldn't be breeding, judging by what's on the market. And a lot of buyers are paying WAY too much. I don't know what else to say.

[Albion]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

SeaOat, let me make one thing clear:

I TOTALLY agree with you that there are FAR too many *very nice horses* on the ground for people looking for an average prospect (say, pleasure horse/lower level showing, etc.) to go out and breed one.

But I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that because the RACING WORLD is producing way too many horses, that the sport horse world needs to stop. That's my issue with your statement. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it came off. Why should the upper echelons of the discipline rely on RACE breeders for their sport horses? Would YOU rely on SPORT HORSE breeders for your top level racing prospects?

Your tone is overly nasty, and for what it's worth, I could never afford a big bucks horse. My most expensive pony cost a grand total of $3K, and I made her up from barely saddle broken to a nice pony that could gallop around & put in 8 nice fences. My show experience at big shows is limited to being on one end of a HB yearling or 2 year old in the BYH class when the person I worked for had more than one horse in the class. I've SPENT my time in the trenches, thanks, and I've had the opportunity to learn from some of the best. I've handled yearlings that were $50K weanlings, but *I* will never own one. *I* have never (nor will I ever, since I will be perpetually lacking the funds http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) purchased a big $$$ horse, and guess what? If I wanted a TB (being a grand total of 5'2" on a tall day, I prefer ponies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), I probably WOULD go buy one from the yearling sales. I have no problem making up a horse from scratch - I did it when I was 13, I can sure as hell do it now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And since I worked at a piddly training track for just a few months, I wouldn't EXPECT to have the contacts of someone who works at the track.

Regarding my comment on 'barring a hugely successful career' - I prefer mares, and most of the mares that were 'promised' to people were promised assuming they DIDN'T have a hugely successful career & DIDN'T have a reason to go to the breeding shed.

Regarding my comment on muddy TB yearlings, you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also know sport horse sales rely HEAVILY on the presentation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To which I responded that I haven't seen that many muddy things going through the ring at Keenland. Presentation DOES matter. Yes, a good eye can see through the mud, the awkward growth stages, etc. I daresay a large proportion of amateurs in the sporthorse world(s) DON'T have fantastic eyes and CAN'T see that. I daresay there are a lot of workers on the track who are just as uneducated. I would NEVER recommend that a complete novice toddle off to find a CANTER horse on their own. If they want a well bred horse to do X at a high level with, yes, their best bet IS to go to a breeder. Obviously many people have had great success with OTTBs, I wasn't questioning that. Not everyone has the skills to get an OTTB (or a yearling, for that matter) to that level. It IS a lot easier to do when you have a 3 or 4 year old TB who has had a basic education as a sport horse - not as a racehorse.

George is right - there's a LOT more that goes into prepping an HB horse that simply shining it up. The great ones don't need much. The rest? A lot of work. A LOT of work.

Having a sire who has produced a number of successful hunter offspring (or jumper, or whatever) - as well as a dam who has produced a number of successful hunter offspring (Etc.) IS a good predictor of the future foal's success. I mean, are you telling me that people pay $500K to breed their mare to Storm Cat just for fun & he's the same as a local stallion standing for $1000?

PS: You can get a very nice 2 year old (speaking of ponies here) - WITH a good show record on the line - for $10K or less. Yearlings for $5K or less. And that's a well bred yearling, with a dam who has produced top-notch babies & a stallion who has, also. To be honest, we only had one yearling in the barn (racing) who came with the bargain price tag of $1500 from the Timonium yearling sales. And anyone buying her as a top level sporthorse prospect would've taken a bath - the horse wound up being quite small - but not a pony - certainly too small for the hunters. Most of the other horses were $15K+ as yearlings - and that was at a CRAPPY racing barn.

[findeight]

I'm late on here and have to confess I don't exactly get what the OP was asking...
She spoke of breakdowns? What are the stats from JC records now?

Used to be about 2 to 4% at recognized tracks.

What is it now? Anybody? I think it may be less then it was back when due to better soft tissue diagnosis and more willingness to acdcept that and back down.

You know, we humans can go out jogging and break a bone and that reflects no abuse.

Horses were, and are, bred to use and that use can result in injury and there is no fault in that..and so many that used to die after a breakdown are now fitted with a plate and screws to return to the track or to a career in the breeding shed.

I think we are well ahead of the breakdown rate of past years and looking to eliminate it.

Things are much better today..and I do not pin a breakdown on either age-when most tracks require x rays to be sure the horse is mature enough to start. Or training when most trainers eat and sleep at the barn and know the horse's soundness is their meal ticket. Or care, when all the help knows a big bonus awaits if the horse is healthy, happy and ready to run.

Kind of a simplistic post here from one who cares but is looking for an easy answer blaming those closest to the racers.

You know, had a friend who bought a Hunter..pretty thing, paid a bunch. Took it off the trailer and turned it out for a romp.
BROKE DOWN frolicking in the pasture. Compound fracture, no help, euthanized...stuff happens.

Not saying bad stuff doesn't go down, but most horse folks truely love and stand behind their animals.

Picking a single breakdown, as I think this OP did, is no reflection on the increasing commitment and compassion I see at the track..and, again Sh*t happens.

[SeaOat]

Albion, at what point did you read into my statements that only race people should breed (I said OVER & OVER there are too many of those breeders as well!! AGAIN, They are the reason there are too many....and give offer to so many of YOUR show needs for LESS $$)?
Other things you've blown way out of text as well....I'm trying to tell that CHEAP-FREE-NICE (but *origionally* very pricey yearling purchases) ARE out there, as well as ANYTHING anyone could want at any level, so WHY do so many people insist on breeding more. There are way TOO MANY TB's available in all sizes, prices, looks, breeding, etc., to make them affordable to ALL. Meeting anyone's needs. It's damn near as useful as breeding mice.
I don't know what the hell your Storm Cat remark has to do with anything. How ridiculous. And you're few examples definatly don't reflect the larger picture. Too many TB's going to waste. And you even make it sound like those babies from a breeder are cheap. And then you bring ponies into the mix....where are you going here? I've nothing against using TB's for improving other breeds, if that's what you're saying. I had a very nice ARAB stallion I gave away years ago & he now breeds to very fancy hunter mares, as he looks very Welsh. So what?
At this point I don't care diddly that your limited arena has narrowed your view. Let the people who know keep scouting and selling, I'll keep giving away nice horses to people who "get it" and are not so damned stubborn. Best Wishes.

[Albion]

You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Having a hunter sire/dam isn't a great predictor at all, I feel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If having a sire/dam excell at (or excell at producing horses who excell at) what you're trying to breed for isn't a predictor, why are people breeding to Storm Cat? For fun? Because they have $500K to waste? You're welcome to say it's "so ridiculous", but what makes you think that hunter movement & conformation & JUMP can't be bred for? Perhaps you're too ignorant of the discipline to realize it CAN be bred for? I'd be willing to hazard a guess that a stallion like Popeye K probably produces more top-level hunter prospects per crop than Allen's Prospect - just like Storm Cat produces more stakes horses than a TB stallion bred to produce sport horses.

People insist on breeding more because it's human nature. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Look at the excess of human children in this country. I'm against breeding horses that can't contribute anything to their respective breeds/crosses/intended purposes. I'm also against breeding humans who shouldn't be procreating. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But you can't legislate intelligence, can you? If people want to breed Dobette, they will. Even knowing there are other options out there - there are some people who just want the experience.

Maybe I AM lucky & the breeders I have been acquainted with have been breeding high-quality mares to high-quality stallions & have had NO PROBLEM finding the resulting offspring homes, be it as weanlings/yearlings/2 year olds, or as 3 & 4 year olds with ground work, solid w/t/c work & some jumping.

My "limited arena" has not limited my view - I simply have no interest in owning a TB for myself, since I'm SHORT and I like ponies better - I know that perfectly nice horses can be picked up off the track. Should I ever WANT a TB, I have enough contacts who have worked for the best of the best that I wouldn't have much of an issue of finding a nice one. I've been OFFERED nice ones. As far as being damned stubborn - well, if being damned stubborn means having an opinion & not kow towing to yours, I won't be crying into my pillow at night. Like I said - I agree with you on many counts. I don't agree with your idea that the racing world can provide the sporthorse world with everything the sporthorse world desires. Some horses, some cases? Yeah - across the board? No.

Considering top level ponies have sold for the multiple hundreds of thousands, and buying a solid citizen for the A circuit isn't cheap, yup - $10K is cheap. Same goes for the horses. If you have a knock out star that's a star as a yearling, it'll be cheaper to buy it then, as opposed to waiting until it's 4 & cleaning up at the big shows. Same reason people buy OTTBs for resale. You know, to make a profit?

[GallopGal]

I think most of our soundness problems come from breeding (and poor managment too of course) But horses that have conformation problems break down regardless. What happens to the mares that cant be raced...they get bred and pass down that same gene/ conformation problem that made them break down in the first place.

[Showpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GallopGal:
I think most of our soundness problems come from breeding (and poor managment too of course) But horses that have conformation problems break down regardless. What happens to the mares that cant be raced...they get bred and pass down that same gene/ conformation problem that made them break down in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXCELLENT point!

[GallopGal]

yep happens all the time
"up cant race (show...whatever) anymore she got hurt....Let make her a broodmare!!"

What a great idea,

"Im sure her having bad hocks, weak stiffles and all that good stuff her mom had wont be passed on to her baby will it?"

Noooooooooo!!!! That just non-sence now. Genes being passed on by a parent? Thats just crazy talk.

[imapepper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
I've stated this in other threads, but to me it seems to be the basis of so much that is "wrong" in any horse discipline.

Trainers have to have owners or else they wouldn't be in business.

Owners are usually in the business because they want to WIN WIN WIN! And they want to win RIGHT NOW!

With so much money currently at stake in the two-year-old races, they are pushing young horses harder than ever before. Why? Because the owners want to WIN! WIN! WIN!

If a trainer isn't producing winners for his owners, the owners dump the trainer like yesterday's news and go find a trainer that will do "whatever it takes" to get a horse to the winner's circle.

So the trainer often does what is necessary to give the owners what they want, which can sometimes produce a promising colt that will never make it because he fractured his ankle at the ripe old age of 22 months.

So, what is the answer?

Who wants to be the one to make two-year-old races a thing of the past? Who wants to be the one to make the Triple Crown a campaign for five-year-olds? Who wants to be the one to make it a law that you must disclose any orthopedic corrections made to any Thoroughbred under the age of three?

No one, because any of these would be a devastating blow to the racing and breeding industries. But in my mind, that is what needs to happen to stop them from pushing these babies until they break.

Rest in peace, Landseer.

_"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."_
-Louisa May Alcott <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Showpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by imapepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
I've stated this in other threads, but to me it seems to be the basis of so much that is "wrong" in any horse discipline.

Trainers have to have owners or else they wouldn't be in business.

Owners are usually in the business because they want to WIN WIN WIN! And they want to win RIGHT NOW!

With so much money currently at stake in the two-year-old races, they are pushing young horses harder than ever before. Why? Because the owners want to WIN! WIN! WIN!

If a trainer isn't producing winners for his owners, the owners dump the trainer like yesterday's news and go find a trainer that will do "whatever it takes" to get a horse to the winner's circle.

So the trainer often does what is necessary to give the owners what they want, which can sometimes produce a promising colt that will never make it because he fractured his ankle at the ripe old age of 22 months.

So, what is the answer?

Who wants to be the one to make two-year-old races a thing of the past? Who wants to be the one to make the Triple Crown a campaign for five-year-olds? Who wants to be the one to make it a law that you must disclose any orthopedic corrections made to any Thoroughbred under the age of three?

No one, because any of these would be a devastating blow to the racing and breeding industries. But in my mind, that is what needs to happen to stop them from pushing these babies until they break.

Rest in peace, Landseer.

_"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."_
-Louisa May Alcott <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, GREAT post!!

[sit up]

Well, I'll be honest and I haven't read the whole thread but what I can see is that there aren't as many breeders who are able or want to breed and run their horses.

Many of the breeders now breed for the sales ring. They want beautiful horses that will sell as yearlings. Many of the distance horses, just don't look great as a yearling. They mature later. That isn't good for those who are breeding to sell as yearlings.

In the old days, there were families who could afford to design their own bloodlines after many many years of careful study. They bred horses and then ran them under their own colors. They had vested interest in making sure that they were breeding quality that would last.

In this day and age, how many of the good three year olds run at four? Not many. If they were there for the Triple Crown and did well, into the breeding shed they go.

Many trainers can keep the horses patched together for a short campaign over two years. We've done great things with medical advances and such that the horses don't really need to be that confirmationally great.

What I see is that there are many horses that are being bred that have no reason to be bred. That is what is creating the breakdowns etc. Yes, freak accidents can happen but the fact is that the thoroughbred industry isn't breeding as much quality as they used to.

Feet are one great example. TB's don't have to have bad feet but many do. We could breed it out of the breed if it became important. Think about it, how many horses lost shoes this Triple Crown? One even lost it going to the paddock!

Do you ever remember that happening before? I've watched the Triple Crown for almost 30 years. This was the worst for lost shoes that I can remember.