PDA

View Full Version : Have you noticed that non-American horses seem to jump differently?



ErinB
Mar. 24, 2002, 01:42 PM
I mean, I have no real idea, as I've only seen pictures... but whenever I go to an international horse sales site (especially the UK sites) the photos always depict horses with legs hanging loose and a flatter back. Always. So my silly question is, do they all really jump like that, or is it just a weird coincidence?

Also, it seems that pictures of horses from the 60's seem different than pictures of them today. All the pictures of today's American horses, at least the hunters, depict huge bascules and knees to the eyeballs. The horses from back then seemed to jump, in photos, like the ones from the UK.

So what is it? Different breeding? Different training? Different cameras? Or am I just seeing things?

~Erin B #1
Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.

ErinB
Mar. 24, 2002, 01:42 PM
I mean, I have no real idea, as I've only seen pictures... but whenever I go to an international horse sales site (especially the UK sites) the photos always depict horses with legs hanging loose and a flatter back. Always. So my silly question is, do they all really jump like that, or is it just a weird coincidence?

Also, it seems that pictures of horses from the 60's seem different than pictures of them today. All the pictures of today's American horses, at least the hunters, depict huge bascules and knees to the eyeballs. The horses from back then seemed to jump, in photos, like the ones from the UK.

So what is it? Different breeding? Different training? Different cameras? Or am I just seeing things?

~Erin B #1
Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.

buryinghill1
Mar. 24, 2002, 01:51 PM
...you could give a serious "bump" in the schooling area. toss rails. you doan wanna know.
You've heard about the "no smoking" jokes, right? Well, around some horses you really couldn't...
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

spaz
Mar. 24, 2002, 01:56 PM
You mean like poling?

______________
I have a new horse!!!!!!!

ErinB
Mar. 24, 2002, 02:19 PM
This is basically what I mean.

Typical UK horse ad photo (http://www.horseselect.co.uk/young/young64/young61.jpg)

Typical American horse ad (http://photos.equine.com/horsepics/381423.jpg)

~Erin B #1
Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.

spaz
Mar. 24, 2002, 02:27 PM
Well keep in mind that the majority of the horses being sold in Europe are jumpers --- they don't have a market for high class, American-style hunters over there as much as we do over here. Therefore, we Americans breed for the knees up to the eyeballs and the round bascule while Europeans typically breed for scope and speed (jumpers). That is one of the reasons why we can get hunters for cheaper over there --- they don't have as big a need for them and would rather fill their barns with top class jumpers. (Also, our horses are just priced insanely high in the US)

Now I am no European horse sales expert, but also, we train our horses to crack their backs over fences and pick their knees up to be tucked neatly under their chins. In England the hunter classes most likely have a different approach to what a hunter should be like.

______________
I have a new horse!!!!!!!

Moo
Mar. 24, 2002, 02:44 PM
spaz has it right.

CoolMeadows
Mar. 24, 2002, 08:45 PM
The American one is hanging its lower legs, but at least its using its back. The English one is flat and pointing its knees, but he's super tight below the knees. Ok, I'm going to make myself unpopular here, but I've spent time in both places and here's my take:

The Brits are extremely high on guts, but some lack finesse and an effective system.

We Americans are extremely high on finesse, but can be pretty low on guts and get a little obsessive about 'the system', rather than just shutting up and riding.

A lot of the Europeans seem to be combining guts, finesse and a good system of developing horses and riders and a typical German ad looks like this:
Yet another horse I want... (http://www.schmidhorses.ch/sissi.htm)

tyedyecommando
Mar. 24, 2002, 09:35 PM
No, neither of those horse is jumping worth...
The German picture though, wow.

The one in the UK ad looks might it might make a decent speed class horse since it seems to get its legs out of the way well. If it lifted its knees up a little though.

The US horse is hanging its legs badly. He really could be jumping much better.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat & drink beer all day.

Kachoo
Mar. 24, 2002, 11:00 PM
However, as spaz mentioned, the ads are targeting very different markets (the British one is definitely a jumper, while the US horse is clearly a hunter). Different qualities come into play, and it's tough to generalize an entire population of animals based on what you may see represented there. Compare that British horse to the ads for some American lower-level jumper horses, and you'll probably see a lot more similarities between their jumping styles. I agree with what CoolMeadows says about the different systems and about how we could all stand to learn from the German way of developing horses and riders, but again, you can't really draw any conclusions based on the comparison of the German/Swiss horse's photo to those posted by ErinB. The UK and American horses are, let's face it, nothing special. Judging by what I can read of the ad, that German/Swiss beastie is not typical at all. It competes at a much higher level than those two ever will and has had lots of success (it was apparently the Swiss champion of 5-year-old jumpers). Plus, its bloodlines make me want to wet myself - Cor de la Bryere, Landgraf . . . ooh la la, could we GET any nicer /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif? Basically, I've seen some British, American, and German horses with phenomenal talent and beautiful jumps. And I've seen a few of each whose owners really should be looking into alternative careers for them /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. So, like I said - interesting observation. Do the photos really say something about the actual populations they come from? Who the heck knows? It would certainly be interesting to find out.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 24, 2002, 11:10 PM
yeah, and, umm...we americans don't "breed," either. Most of the bascule-y knee snapping drop dead hunters were imported. They were too slow/not scopey enough for the europeans (jumper).

I personally don't like either of those horses, but just with the english one..that horse, although not a pretty picture, is quite tight w/ his legs (unlike the other). But they are not up by his eyeballs. That horse is NOT going to be a GP horse of international calibre (see german horse for type), but he's not wasting any time in the air. He's going to get over that fence and be done with it. The american horse is hanging in the air.


also, I agree that this isn't something we can generalize about, esp. because neither of those horses are droolworthy and, more importantly, a horse cannot be judged by a picture (I have the UGLIEST picture of one of my horses who is tight, square, and round 24/7 and another that rivals any MSG-type hunter on another that is fast, but flat and pedestrian when it comes to form), so a type of horse can certainly not be judged by a picture. Now apply that to a region.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

piaffeprincess98
Mar. 25, 2002, 05:18 AM
i've been watching alot of World Cup videos and i've noticed that the Americans are usually alot more of a pleasure to watch then the Europeans. I don't know....i just don't really like the Euro style as much!

~*Lindsay*~
A proud co-owner of CorLin PRO-ductions. Watch out horseworld, here we come!

Jumphigh83
Mar. 25, 2002, 06:29 AM
oh oh oh oh oh...Americans don't breed?? Those are fighting words....Snappy kneed, scopey, fluid floaty hunters are nearly ALWAYS THOROUGHBRED...Where is Europe do they breed those??I would like to go and buy several...All I have seen are warmbloods. (yuk)

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Princess Lauren
Mar. 25, 2002, 07:47 AM
Click on the Imagine That link in my profile. That's typical US jumping: really round, sky high kees and head low.

-Lauren-
[Vantage Point][Imagine That] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/imaginethat.html).
[Come As You Are] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/comeasyouare.html). [Once In A Blue Moon] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/onceinabluemoon.html).

Kachoo
Mar. 25, 2002, 08:49 AM
piaffeprincess - hmmm . . . to each his own, I guess. I agree that the Americans are lovely-looking riders, but I've always thought that the Euros are just as classy in their own way and actually more effective when you get right down to it. We've had a couple good threads on this topic. If you'd like to read them:

*The American Style, originally posted by Ryan (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=4703057034&m=2340943221)

*"Flatwork" vs. Dressage - Are Hunters the Demise of American Showjumping, originally posted by rileyt (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=1970907951&m=8013004343)

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

beringer
Mar. 25, 2002, 09:06 AM
As an aside, for floaty fluid American bred Thoroughbreds, check out the website for Allen Stock Farms in Idaho. If I were more computer savey, I would include the link. Sorry!

Weatherford
Mar. 25, 2002, 09:43 AM
I think we ask that of our hunters - although, I will agree the TB's are the best... WHich is why so many good TB and ISH mares have wound up in European breeding programs!

However, I know a wonderful Irish cob that can jump as prettily (and BOLDLY and AS BIG) as any Am TB hunter out there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And has a huge stride... Just not a particularly floaty one /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buddy again (My favorite cob) (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic/s/691099205/a/ga/ul/3303039054/buddy_smoxer.jpg)

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Medievalist
Mar. 25, 2002, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
oh oh oh oh oh...Americans don't breed?? Those are fighting words....Snappy kneed, scopey, fluid floaty hunters are nearly ALWAYS THOROUGHBRED...Where is Europe do they breed those??I would like to go and buy several...All I have seen are warmbloods. (yuk)

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen lots of french thoroughbreds that would make spectacular hunters...if I only had the money /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In any case, my ISH jumps like a million bucks. I've got some awesome new pictures of him that I need to scan. There is one where I rode like a giant dork to a good sized oxer and he jumped it anyways. His entire front end is seriously above his head. Talk about an athlete...

I think a lot of the reason the pics might look different is that most horses dont need to really engage behind to do the hunters-the jumps just arent big enough...I'm talking the kind of engagement that comes from actually sitting in the tack and correctly rocking the horse back on his haunches so that he can clear the height and width of the obstacle. In both of ErinB's photos, the jumps are not sizable jumps for a horse, so this isnt really illustrated here. The Germans do this to an extreme, but I'm sure none of us can contest their success. This(collection before jumping) is something I never learned in the states, and I rode with some of the best trainers on the 'A' circuit, and that is still very difficult for me...as illustrated by the photo of myself described above /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Medievalist on Mar. 25, 2002 at 01:25 PM.]

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2002, 11:14 AM
jumphigh83: yeah those are fighting words b/c you and I have different tastes in horses. i really don't like the look of most TBs but LOVE the clunky dumbblood look. I mean it's just a matter of personal preference at that point.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

jr
Mar. 25, 2002, 11:14 AM
I just got done watching the Hunter Classic from West Palm Beach on tape.

I guess none of them down there know that TBs are the only way to go for nice hunters. Those poor confused folk were using lots of warmbloods! What were they thinking!!! Just because they were quiet, moved well and jumped spectacularly... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 25, 2002, 11:19 AM
hehe

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

Jair
Mar. 25, 2002, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spaz:
we Americans breed for the knees up to the eyeballs and the round bascule while Europeans typically breed for scope and speed (jumpers).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Spaz but you are quite wrong here. The European's breed for scope and bascule. Why do you think virtually all of the top showjumpers in the world are european warmbloods of some sort? In fact, all the liscensed/approved stallions are tested for their jumping ability, and marked for their form (ie. bascule) and scope. So to say that the Europeans don't breed for them is ridiculous. Besides, form usually equals function.

The other thing of course, is that most of the best hunters here are imported warmbloods, so to say that the americans bred them that way is silly /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>.. Now I am no European horse sales expert, but also, we train our horses to crack their backs over fences and pick their knees up to be tucked neatly under their chins.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what? the Europeans don't? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif When was the last time you saw Ratina Z jump? or Parco? Pozitano? Come on! If anything I'd say its the American horses doing grandprix that jump flat with legs hanging and heads held too high because the riders are lying up on their neck with exagerated crest releases.

Every time I watch international showjumping, the European riders are 10x better to watch then the majority of the North American ones - their horses are usually way rounder and tidier with their knees.

JinxyFish313
Mar. 25, 2002, 12:32 PM
Most of our hunters either came directly from Europe or were the products of eropean horses in american breeding programs, but i do agree that the emphasis here is more on perfect "a" circuit hunter form. As someone else said, they simply do not have the same types of competitions across the pond as they do here, so naturaly they're training focusses on different things (ie- effectiveness of scope & bascule for jumpers). As for whoever said TBs r the nicest hunters, i dont agree...if you look into it, something like 98% of the top level hunters in the US r some form of warmblood or other european horse. While tb's often make nice hunters, their slim, refined, sometimes leggy look is not usually wat hunter judges r looking for. I myself would rather see a more solid horse on a hunt field than a slight TB and I think that's a concept carried over into the show ring more often than not.

As a matter of opinion- I like american style jumpers more than European. Euro riders win the style award, however, there are still many spectacular american riders as well.

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

Jumphigh83
Mar. 25, 2002, 05:42 PM
Well Box of Rocks (you left something out of THAT name) the "fighting words" were that Americans don't "breed" horses, NOT whether I like warmbloods or not. Get with the program. (that is no secret to anyone who has been on the board more than a week)

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Princess Lauren
Mar. 25, 2002, 05:49 PM
I looove that horse!! I want one.

-Lauren-
[Vantage Point][Imagine That] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/imaginethat.html).
[Come As You Are] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/comeasyouare.html). [Once In A Blue Moon] (http://www.geocities.com/viewpoint_stables/onceinabluemoon.html).

JumperEq
Mar. 25, 2002, 06:37 PM
The whole idea of hunters was started in America, when the top choice of a horse was your classic slender, leggy TB. I'm sorry, but I believe that a good TB will beat a good WB any day. The problem nowadays is a lot of people don't want to put the time of training a TB in and would rather deal with the usually easier to train WBs.

I'll take my Thoroughbred, thank you very much! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

.:Erin B #2:.
"So make the best of this task and don't ask why,
It's not a question but a lesson learned in time,
It's something unpredictable but in the end it's right,
I hope you have the time of your life."

DMK
Mar. 25, 2002, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:
I just got done watching the Hunter Classic from West Palm Beach on tape.

I guess none of them down there know that TBs are the only way to go for nice hunters. Those poor confused folk were using lots of warmbloods! What were they thinking!!! Just because they were quiet, moved well and jumped spectacularly... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but to be fair, how many top judges have you seen quoted as saying they truly prefer the classic TB look? This is not to say a WB can't look like a TB, but they generally are not bred with that much refinement in mind, and bottom line no matter WHAT they prefer, they can't do anything except judge what shows that day.

And we have a great current crop of WBs in the ring - can't say anything bad about their style, except one wonders what would happen if we could magically resurrect Tindle and Cap & Gown for a round or two! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Louise
Mar. 25, 2002, 06:57 PM
Jumphigh - please remember that one of the rules on this forum involves courtesy to others. You can state your opinion of another's ideas with out insulting the individual himself.

Thank you.

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

ProzacPuppy
Mar. 25, 2002, 07:09 PM
My trainer and I went over this WB/TB thing this weekend at a show and I have to admit that her opinion that for showjumping the average thoroughbred tends to jump flatter than the WB proved true a large percentage of the time (we're talking 4'+ fences as just about every scopey horse jumps flatter over lower fences). The breeding that makes a TB's conformation good for flat racing is not necessarily what is wanted to rock back and power over big fences.

While my own TB has a great front end and tries his heart out, he still tends to jump "at" his fences, rather than rounding over them.

geckoUBC
Mar. 26, 2002, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Well Box of Rocks (you left something out of THAT name) the "fighting words" were that Americans don't "breed" horses, NOT whether I like warmbloods or not. Get with the program. (that is no secret to anyone who has been on the board more than a week)

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm.. that was a little uncalled for...

Aleesha

Before you say that one's beauty within outshines any exterior beauty, imagine an inverted human body. Not too pleasant, eh?

Duffy
Mar. 26, 2002, 12:54 AM
It's ok, Aleesha. Louise already gave her what for. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Portia
Mar. 26, 2002, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JumperEq:
The whole idea of hunters was started in America, when the top choice of a horse was your classic slender, leggy TB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Small disagreement here, and it's not a TB versus WB thing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The whole idea of highly stylized, stride-counting, dead quiet, 8 jumps in a ring show hunters started in America. The idea of real hunters, and classes showing off the desired attributes of a good field hunter, very definately began in Europe. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

******

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." Sen. Everett Dirksen

Weatherford
Mar. 26, 2002, 09:18 AM
Right, Portia - in Ireland, they do have a hunter-over-fences class - called "AMERICAN STYLE HUNTERS" and it is specifically for horses to be sold to the American market....

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JinxyFish313
Mar. 26, 2002, 10:05 AM
The conformation and model classes are judged on how well built a horse is and how well SUITED TO THEIR JOB AS A HUNTER they are. How often do you see a slender, leggy TB beat a heavier, hearty-er looking WB in a model @ an A show? not very often...

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

NinaL aka Chrissy
Mar. 26, 2002, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Yes, but to be fair, how many top judges have you seen quoted as saying they truly prefer the classic TB _look_? This is not to say a WB can't look like a TB, but they generally are not bred with that much refinement in mind, and bottom line no matter WHAT they prefer, they can't do anything except judge what shows that day.

And we have a great current crop of WBs in the ring - can't say anything bad about their style, except one wonders what would happen if we could magically resurrect Tindle and Cap & Gown for a round or two! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, heh, heh...my friend called me after a successful sojourn to Florida where his warmblood whupped his classic TB's shiny butt.

He had to share with me a call from a top-notch judge-who-shall-go-nameless-on-this-board who basically said to him, "You may have done better on the warmblood but how can you stand to go from your classic, elegant TB to that clunker!".

Nina (it's all in your perspective)

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

DMK
Mar. 26, 2002, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlimShady8661:
The conformation and model classes are judged on how well built a horse is and how well SUITED TO THEIR JOB AS A HUNTER they are. How often do you see a slender, leggy TB beat a heavier, hearty-er looking WB in a model @ an A show? not very often...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dunno, slimshady, I guess it depends on how often Hollywood gets beat in the model. Or over fences for that matter!

Heather - is this the same friend or another friend? Either way, I think we need to have a collection of "Phone Wit and Witticisms by Heather" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Jair
Mar. 26, 2002, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PP:
Also, Americans ride their jumpers much different too...that is why they may appear to jump much better then the European horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. I still totally disagree. After all the years of watching international showjumping on TV, and following the sport in general, I still find the European horses jump far far better then most of the American ones. While there are a few that jump just as well like those ridden by Maclain Ward or Alison Firestone, the difference between the rest is huge.

I really don't understand how you think the american horses jump better - if that were true, then where are all your gold medals and world cup victories in the last decade or so? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And as for switching riders - just look at how well Mr. Blue jumped when ridden by Bert Romp as opposed to Elise Haas. He was poetry in motion with his former rider, and very unimpressive with his second.

lauriep
Mar. 26, 2002, 01:40 PM
The reason WBs are so popular now is the dearth of TBs available. 20 years ago there were NO WBs in the hunter ring, and few in the jumper ring. TBs could, and did, do it all.

And as for their ability to jump round with knees to chin: just as in WBs, some do, some don't. Isn't the current craze for WB equitation horses due to their flat jump? I think so...

Personally, I would take a TB over a comparably jumping WB any day of the week. but, as DMK said, in her eternal wisdom, the judges can only place the horses they are shown.

I also know firsthand that at least 2 well-known judges LONG for the days of the TB hunter.

Laurie

Medievalist
Mar. 26, 2002, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is very simple...it is really not that European and American horses jumping styles are so different. It is really the "ride." European riders hang on their horse's mouth, cram them to the base of the jump and usually do not let go of the horse mouth much in the air ( or anywhere else). Therfore creating the horse to jump the way they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My horse would dump me if I rode like that...and so would all the other "European" horses I ride. I do the automatic release that is worked to death on this board. If there is a student in the barn that has a problem with their release, it is not considered acceptable, and it is fixed before the student turns the horse into a stopper.

Where do you get the idea that the horse's mouth is never released anywhere? Our horses are taught to support themselves, not to be held up by their mouths. My horse is capable of doing fairly spectacular correct upper level dressage movements, and can also go out and go clear in a grand prix in the same weekend. I imigine that feat would not be accomplishable if he was crammed to the base of every jump and had a rider that never let go of his mouth-in fact I'm sure he would really resent it and wouldnt jump.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>These same horses may be imported and end up being Great hunters because the way Americans ride the horse ( esp. Hunters ) is much different then the European ride. The horse you see hanging its legs in Europe may be the same one you see snatching its kness in the Hunter ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is because Americans will pay big money for a horse that jumps like crap over the big jumps, but jumps well over the smaller ones. We had an "American Style" hunter class here the other weekend, and some americans offered a friend of mine $80,000 for her 5yo that pulls bars in the young jumpers. She was floored.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, Americans ride their jumpers much different too...that is why they may appear to jump much better then the European horses. Put some American riders on some of the same European horses and see the difference in the way that horse may jump with the American verse the European "ride." Americans are a bit more generous with their releases , they do not always ride as far to the base as possible and do not hang on the horses mouth as much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on the rider. Have you ever watched Herve Godingnon school all of his horses at home? Or ride them in a show? I have. Talk about a riding lesson. The horses all jump great for him, and the last time I checked, he wasnt american...and neither is Alexandra Lederman, the Beerbaums, or Katie Prudent(haha j/k)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, the European horses have much heavier shoes on!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mine has racing plates, and good god are they heavy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And have you weighed a Stubben recently? It's a wonder European horses can get off the ground at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes all Europeans ride in Stubbens. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Think about that the next time you see a Butet, or a Delgrange, or a Devocoux, or any of the millions of other European saddles that the Americans shell out big bucks for.


Argh. My whole day has been like this. Next thing you know, I'll find out that all European horses have 9 legs.

JinxyFish313
Mar. 26, 2002, 01:58 PM
that may have been the case, but as of right now, the group of horses we have showing, as a whole, is predominantly WB and the WB's are winning over the TBs.

Do not misscontrue (sp?) what I was saying. There are,have been and will be many wonderful TB hunters out there. To clarify what I was talking about...the leggy, super-refined, off the track looking TB is not what I consider the classic hunter. Thats not to say that the TBs out there that are built for and go like hunters arent just as great as the WBs. The same holds tru for the WBs, not every one of them is a great hunter nor are they all built like hunters. You have to look more specifically at the type of horse you are talking about.

And DMK- that eplanation is also directed @ your statement about Hollywood. Hollywood is no skinny, leggy, narrow TB.

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

lauriep
Mar. 26, 2002, 02:21 PM
despite what the rule book description says, that there are field hunters and show hunters, and the twain seldom meets!

I can't think of a field hunter I know that could go and win in a show hunter class. Nor could a show hunter make it in the field. As I said, the warmbloods win today because that is what is out there and is what the judges are used to seeing. But they in no way perform any better than a good TB.

I would put Riot Free, San Felipe, Touch the Sun, Isgilde, Numbers, etc. (the list goes on) against the horses winning today ANYTIME and bet on the outcome.

Laurie

Jair
Mar. 26, 2002, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PP:
There are a lot of great European riders... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make it sound like they are few and far between! However, I would say they are dominant.

Just for fun, here is the current list of top 15 showjumping riders in the world based on FEI classes:

1 Ludger Beerbaum GER
2 Rodrigo Pessoa BRA
3 Ludo Philippaerts BEL
4 Lars Nieberg GER
5 Markus Fuchs SUI
6 Rolf-G�ran Bengtsson SWE
7 Willi Melliger SUI
8 Franke Sloothaak GER
9 Marcus Ehning GER
10 Michael Whitaker GBR
11 Jeroen Dubbeldam NED
12 Jerry Smit ITA
13 Jan Tops NED
14 Jos Lansink BEL
15 Hugo Simon AUT

I'd say this was a pretty classy group of riders /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kachoo
Mar. 26, 2002, 03:07 PM
By saying EXACTLY what I was thinking, you've both saved me the trouble of writing a huge response. Jair, while you're commenting on Bert Romp's ride vs. Elise Haas', we might as well bring up Zyphria too. That horse was much more beautifully and effectively ridden when it was with Dirk Hauser. The only one I've seen ride it somewhat properly since is Katie Prudent when she showed it for Elise last summer at Spruce.

PP - there's a very big difference between riding with a feel of the horse's mouth and "hanging on the horse's mouth." I've spent some time in Europe myself, as well as having friends who are based there, and most of what we've noticed is very similar - regardless of where you are (France, Belgium, Holland, or Germany), flatwork is emphasized far more than it is here in North America, and the grand majority of riders have better "feel" and "touch" (I wish these weren't such vague terms) than do most of the riders I've seen in the U.S. or here in Canada. As a result, they are, let's face it, more effective overall - you want proof? Go take a look at Jair's list of the current world's top ten.

Yes, what you say is true, it's a different ride - but I've found that the Euro ride is also a more adaptive one. Look at Ludger Beerbaum and John Whitaker - they can ride anything from the heaviest clunkers to the lightest, most sensitive horses (e.g. Ratina Z). You want lower-level examples? The kids who ride in the Schmuckster's (the guy who trains our horses in Germany) barn can handle everything from ex-racehorses (they occasionally get some in from France) to the huge stallions from the Come On family. When I was in France, the grooms at the Ecurie du Grand Veneur were better riders than most of the people who do the high amateurs and juniors here at Spruce Meadows and could adjust themselves to anything as well.

Also, I'm inclined to agree with Medievalist about the releases - where in Europe were you that the norm was not releasing in the air? Truthfully, I find the natural, completely unpostured automatic release favored by most of the riders I've seen there much more pleasing to the eye than some of the contortions I've been seeing around here lately in the jumper/hunter/eq rings (we've had a couple of threads on this BB from people who've noticed the same weird style-related goings-on). Yes, the hunter-type ride is suitable for its purpose - however, if you want to talk about explosive power, effectiveness, and adaptability, I still believe the example to look to is the Euro ride.

Sigh, so I've written something huge anyway /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

Therese
Mar. 26, 2002, 04:17 PM
I've just lived in Germany for 4 years. They do not as has been pointed out hang on their horses' mouths and cram them to the base of the fence. Maintain contact, Yes. Ride to the base, and have them rock to their haunches, Yes.

When you take a horse that is used to contact and a leg, and dump them in frot of the fence (crest release with loopy reins) and release leg (perch)they stop. Why? Because by totally releasing all contact you've told the horse "We're done!" The best you'll get is a knock until they figure out what you want.

The majority of WB (both US and European) are bred as sport horses (dressage, jumping, eventing), not hunters. They will naturally come to the bit and have a more elevated stride than the average TB because this is what their conformation allows them to do. The US race bred TB will move with a flatter knee and longer neck. The improvement TBs in the WB lines (especialy from Europe) are not like our current racing TBs. They are from distance, turf, or chasing lines.

Different breeding produces a different animal. Not better, not worse, different.

--Therese

Smile! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It makes people wonder what you're thinking!

Jair
Mar. 26, 2002, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LOL:
And as far as releases, I have NEVER seen so many NON releases as I have at International competitions. I see it all the time on OLN. Am I the only one to notice that?!?!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps its because you are so used to seeing the american version of a crest release that the following hand looks too restrictive to you?

Great post Kachoo! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zimt
Mar. 26, 2002, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
oh oh oh oh oh...Americans don't breed?? Those are fighting words....Snappy kneed, scopey, fluid floaty hunters are nearly ALWAYS THOROUGHBRED...Where is Europe do they breed those??[QUOTE]


Huh? the TB was MADE in the UK - invented there! The do race, just a little, in Europe, y'know /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Zimt on Mar. 26, 2002 at 08:04 PM.]

Fiction
Mar. 26, 2002, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Yes, but to be fair, how many top judges have you seen quoted as saying they truly prefer the classic TB _look_? This is not to say a WB can't look like a TB, but they generally are not bred with that much refinement in mind, and bottom line no matter WHAT they prefer, they can't do anything except judge what shows that day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sweedish WBs are bred more refined and slender. I have one, and everyone thinks he's a TB. He also jumps super scopey and square, and wins in the hunters(when *I'm* actually good lol)
I'll attach a pic
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-----
This is not a true story
-----

Zimt
Mar. 26, 2002, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Right, Portia - in Ireland, they do have a hunter-over-fences class - called "AMERICAN STYLE HUNTERS" and it is specifically for horses to be sold to the American market....

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree - I rode Working hunters in the UK and they had to look and ACT like they could do a full day's hunting to hounds - workmanlike, solid individuals with no silly business, in plain tack who jumped at a hunting pace (boldly!).

If the judge didn't feel like this horse would give him a nice ride for a long day following hounds (and yes, they get on and try them all out!) then it was off like last week's shirt.

I wouldn't trust half the hunters I see here in the USA to get me through a gate, let alone an hour across rough country! (No offense - they're very cute)

Jair
Mar. 26, 2002, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LOL:
Also Jair, tell me about the FEI shows and where they located? Thanks

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All over the world. Or at least wherever the national equestrian federation has arranged for a show to carry the CSI (international showjumping classes) designation.

The website is International Equestrian Federation (http://www.horsesport.org)

For some reason I get the impression you are not being sincere, and rather are hoping I'll answer something to further your argument. I hope I'm wrong /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DMK
Mar. 26, 2002, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlimShady8661:
the leggy, super-refined, off the track looking TB is not what I consider the classic hunter.

And DMK- that eplanation is also directed @ your statement about Hollywood. Hollywood is no skinny, leggy, narrow TB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well of course he isn't (he damn sure is a TB, though)! And neither are the vast majority of decent racing sires. A TB with poor conformation is no better than a TB withpoor conformation. Tha't just Common Sense 101. Pretty much the same holds true for WBs too, last I heard. If you go buying some TB with piss poor conformation who couldn't run his way out of a wet paper sack due to said conformation, well then it hardly seems fair to compare it to a WB that someone paid top dollar for, and imported primarily because it was more refined and more of a TB-type?

I think you just might be confused about what a young horse in racing shape looks like as opposed to a mature hunter or breeding stallion. That is the best explanation I can think for your reasoning. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If the TB was so universally skinny and narrow (no conformation judge I ever met said gee, this horse's legs are too long for it's body!) the eventer community would be in a world of hurt. As it is, they seem to be collecting more medals than the jumper folks. Maybe it's the release? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Leggy... bad in hunters. Definitely a different point of view!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Heidi
Mar. 26, 2002, 09:47 PM
For sheer entertainment value, these discussions are always interesting because they invariably devolve into pissing contests and everyone ends up personally insulted for some inexplicable reason.

So, for entertainment purposes only, here are my observations:

-our friend owns a wonderful TB who's sensitive, can turn one a dime, has beaten Ian Millar in a speed derby (hello?!?! with a rail in hand); an amazing beast who could trot out of a GP class and take a six year old on a 'pony ride'.

He also jumps inverted (as do, I dare observe, many TBs in GP jumpers); and can fret sufficiently enough to shed 100 lbs with the mere sighting of a draft horse. Go figure.

-our WB jumper, bred and trained in Germany had incredible scope and bascule; he could be buried to the base of an oxer but as long as you spurred on, he'd pop it with a couple of feet to spare. He probably had two rails in his first year of showing and placed in virtually every single class he ever entered.

He also enjoyed the benefit of dressage training in Germany and as our (Canadian) trainer noted, he was the best 'flatted horse' he'd ever sat on. That's probably, BTW, the difference between North American and European riders - rather than hunters, they spend their 'formative' years training in dressage. Irish riders are explicitly excluded from this generalized observation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At the same time, I would never have put our children on his back; and let's just say he wasn't as neat with his front as we'd have liked. And perhaps again that's the difference between the two breeds - the TBs are wonderfully neat with their front; the WB's have incredible power in their hind legs. There are, of course, exceptions to my little observation.

That said, my daughter has a WB. If, after an absence of five years, I were in the market for my own horse, I'd buy a kindly TB for its sensitivity; if we were to buy an 'investment' horse, that 6 foot, 200 lb. Hans could also ride, we'd buy a WB.

As for Mr. Blue, you know, I've often heard that comparative argument. As a parent, if I were buying my daughter a GP jumper, I'd buy the best that I could afford. If my budget allowed for a million or two on a well-trained, jaw-dropping scopey horse, well, I'd also have bought Mr. Blue. We are, all of us, allowed to ride worse than Bert Romp -- who, I'm sure walked away with a wonderful commission cheque, BTW.

I think the only conclusion to be drawn in this discussion is that we're all entitled to our observations and preferences; and be it TB or WB, many horses are great -- and many are not.

[This message was edited by Heidi on Mar. 27, 2002 at 12:09 AM.]

Medievalist
Mar. 27, 2002, 05:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
Uh, Medievalist I think PP was joking about the shoes, I was certainly joking about the saddles. Also you cheerfully attributed her writings to both of us. Incorrectly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if it came out that way...I pay $.20 a min for internet access, and sometimes I cut things a little short. I figured that having read the page before this one, most people would be able to figure out who said what by having already read it. I never said anything about you writing it in concert with her /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NinaL aka Chrissy
Mar. 27, 2002, 07:32 AM
...is by a Trakehner stallion named Schoenfeld who stands in Kentucky. I think he is out of a TB mare but don't quote me on that. But he's definitely NOT a TB.

This in not really germane to the thread in particular but it addresses some of the comments made on riding styles. Seems that the biomechanics people have done some studies on whether or not a horse can "store" energy in his hindlegs. Turns out that they do and riding techniques that involve "loading" the hind legs (i.e., collection) will result in energy being transferred and stored in the hind end. When the horse performs a movement that requires use of the hind end (i.e., jumping) the muscles release the energy which, in theory, should provide for a larger jump.

Actually, I would love to see some studies done on the effect of the different releases on the balance of the horse. I think that you could use something like time-lapse photography and lights to show the differences in the balance points over an obstacle. Right now we're dealing with perception - to me the out-of-hand release certainly looks more balanced and controlled and it is aesthetically more pleasing (IMO, of course!). Just wonder if what we see really has any effect on the horse.

Then again, many years ago everybody thought that horses galloped in big leaps. The invention of still photography certainly proved them wrong.

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

DMK
Mar. 27, 2002, 08:04 AM
Way wierd Nina, 'cuz the Chronicle listed him as a TB in the show horse issue! But honestly, I haven't a clue if he is or isn't... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Still, I stand by my belief that a typey, leggy, elegant, Sam Savitt type horse more personifies the ultimate in hunter, regardless of who the ancestors may be - TB or WB!

LOL - all the WEF GPs this year were held under FEI specs (either national or international depending on the class), which was certainly to Stadium Jumping's credit. And no, the vast majority of US GP riders do not ride week in and week out on FEI international spec courses, but to be fair, most European riders ride on FEI National spec courses most of the time too. However (and this is a whole 'nuther topic of conversation) it behooves us to ride more at the spec we must compete at internationally if we want to be succesful in that venue. It just makes good competetive sense to do so. I mean can you imagine what would happen if the Canadian Football champion came to the Superbowl? It would be a bloodbath! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

NinaL aka Chrissy
Mar. 27, 2002, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Way wierd Nina, 'cuz the Chronicle listed him as a TB in the show horse issue! But honestly, I haven't a clue if he is or isn't... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Still, I stand by my belief that a typey, leggy, elegant, Sam Savitt type horse more personifies the ultimate in hunter, regardless of who the ancestors may be - TB or WB!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aahh, the COTH horse show issue - that bastian of accuracy.

I thought that Hollywood's little spook kind of gave his Trakehner ancestry away /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!

Seriously, I know his breeding because I have a friend who is breeding her mare to Hennessy who stands at the same farm. Schoenfeld himeself is more of the heavy, old-fashioned Trak type. He was actually quite a good dressage horse but is doing a nice job producing hunters. Besides, my sainted Chrissy was an Anglo/Trak so, information gatherer that I am I have amassed an astonishing amount of useless Trakehner detail over the years (I am sure you can relate to this /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

And, yup, to me, too, it's the type not the breed. Although I have to admit that in recent years it's a whole lot easier to find the right type in WBs these days than it was 15 or 20 years ago.

Still, I can think of some rather notable examples of rather clunky WBs still winning at the big A's.

I cherish the quote by an international level dressage judge who, upon seeing Granat for the first time, remarked "He screams for the plow".

Nina

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."

Irving Townsend.

JinxyFish313
Mar. 27, 2002, 10:14 AM
I was not speaking of tbs with poor conformation, I was referring to tbs with conformation not lending itself to hunters. Not every TB hunter is like the good TB stallions. I kno many TB hunters that look like they came off the track @ age 8 and definitely do not look, move or jump like hunters. A majority of the TBs out there fit into that catagory. The ones with great breeding are obviously better built, but thats not most of them now is it...

I forget who posted it, but whoever's Swedish WB that is, your horse is very nice looking! Def more solidly built than what I refer to as the leggy, refined tb tho

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

DMK
Mar. 27, 2002, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlimShady8661:

I kno many TB hunters that look like they came off the track @ age 8 and definitely do not look, move or jump like hunters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's certainly good for a grin or two. NONE of them come off the track looking ready to go in the ring! They had a different job on the track! It takes knowledge, time, patience and TALENT to take a horse from the track to the ring. Sorry, I still don't think that argument holds water.

As for the conformation aspects, I think it would be an excellent learning opportunity to understand what the average buyer is looking for at the yearling sales, and why a lot of those top babies could walk away with all the breeding awards at Devon.

Still, if you are content in your view of the world, far be it from me to even try to shake up such a comfortable little place. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh yes, Nina, I can DEFINITELY relate to the gathering of much useless information! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

jr
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:03 PM
I don't care whether your hunter preference is TBs or WBs....

But don't tell me that TBs are preferred in the show ring because of the show hunters roots in field hunting. It doesn't wash.

1) A variety of horses are traditionally, and currently used in field hunting to include TBs. It is not today, and has never been, exclusively a TB domain. The horse you use for hunting is a function many things to include terrain type.

2) If the root hunting tradition is so important to the the show ring version, why do we expect them to poke along, jump SO extravagantly, move like a daisy cutter, etc. etc. These are not necessarily attributes one must have in the field.

This is NOT and indictment of TBs -- the most successful AO jumper I've had was a 15.3 hand TB gelding of the track. (He showed Reg Working Hunters too!!) I'm just saying that the argument that TBs are "better" show hunters because of the traditional foxhunt roots of the sport is a red herring.

Janet
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well what do you think was the whole hunter divison when it was actually based on field hunting? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this was when?

At least within my living memory it was the other way round. Real field hunters were more likely to be crossbreds of some sort,while show hunters were more likely to be stright TBs.

JinxyFish313
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:15 PM
i said (referring 2 the 8 yr olds) that they LOOK LIKE THEY CAME OFF THE TRACK @ 8...that does not mean Im talking about 8 yr old off the track horses going into the ring, obviously these horses are not ready to go show in the hunters.

Maybe my original statement of opinion wasnt clear. I do not mean TBs in GENERAL cannot be classic hunters. We all kno where the hunters came from. My point is that the leggy, skinny, narrow bodied, track like TBs r NOT wat is classic and that a majority of TBs fit into this catagory.

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

lauriep
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:33 PM
where you get the idea that a "classic" hunter is contrary to the TB conformation?! A good hunter, and I'm talking working, not conf., is judged on manners, way of going, jumping, suitability to rider. Conformation doesn't even enter into that equation. So, it becomes a matter of personal choice whether you place a TB over a WB, or vice versa, when the two have dead equal trips. I prefer the look of a TB, you prefer a WB. Consequently, I would not show my TB to you and go elsewhere. BUT, I would always place the best horse according to what my mental picture of a SHOW hunter is, WB, TB or otherwise. I just happen to love the TB and consider him a master of a lot of trades.

Laurie

Court@HJ-OH
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:41 PM
So here is my opinion.

Riding
The Europeans could wipe us the ground with us as far as riding goes. I personally think that this is because we start all our riders in the hunters. Riding a hunter teaches a rider to sit there and be quiet, not bother the horse and to ride very passively.

Hunters in Europe
I think that they are laughing at us over there. We go over there and spend hundreds of thousands on horses that are useless to them. The hunters that we buy are not making it in the jumpers and would be horrible field hunter also.

Hunters here
The horses here wouldn't make it on a field hunt to save their lives. I have been to hunts here and the horses that I see are big half drafts that go thundering across the field. Not that a dainty little thoroughbred. All the people at that hunt were eventers.


The American Thoroughbreds downfall
Hunters use to be all thoroughbreds, they could hunt in a ring or on the field. They could jump the moon. The problem arose in the breeding on the TB. You use to be able to go to the track and buy a wonderful horse that would be worth tons with some training. Now the horses at the track are already broken down by the time they are retired. It is the claiming race that has done it to us. smalltime breeders don't care that much anymore about breeding winners and taking care of them. Just breed an ok horse throw it into a claiming race and make a few bucks more that you spent to breed and train it. Hell, breed 30 crappy horses and throw them in a claiming race make a pretty penny or two. Now this horse is done, no more racing, it is broken down and useless who wants it now. Not the hunter/jumper people anymore. They can now just buy a warmblood and make it easier on themselves than spending money on a broken HOT HOT crazy track horse. That is why TBs suck now, the racing business has changed the way that we do things and it sucks. I want our wonderful TBs back!!!!!

**Courtney**
Jack ~On the Rocks~ PLEASE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Momo ~Just My Luck~

A woman only needs two animals in her life.. the horse of her dreams and a jackass to pay for it!

Jair
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ryan:
She can get her horse around a BIG Grand Prix horse. Can you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course. My horse can walk around another horse no problem, whether he's big or not! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weatherford
Mar. 27, 2002, 12:44 PM
Thank you Ryan. And to add what he said, re, Mr Blue (that horse can retire to MY BACKYARD any DAY!!!), THEY were 6th in the selection trials, weren't they? Not bad, not bad at all...

By the way, Heidi, right about Irish riders. But only half right about the commission - there were some other fingers in that pie, too!

Who wants to bet Katie will try to make the French WEG team with Mr. Blue??

JinxyFish313
Mar. 27, 2002, 01:34 PM
u guys (well some of you) aren't understanding me, so I'll just stop talking. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

lonewolf
Mar. 27, 2002, 01:50 PM
That everyone is debating the big TB vs WB question, since what most people are riding these days is a cross between the two. A lot of the WBs in the ring today are out of TB mares, and even those which aren't have TB in their recent parentage.

I second the comment that TBs can be just as good jumpers as warmbloods, but the problem is that they're just not being well bred.

Personally, I prefer a TB ride, or at least a WB with a lot of thoroughbred in it.

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 27, 2002, 02:16 PM
lonewolf-- a lot of the horses out there are crosses, but most of the horses that are winning on the big circuits are straight-up imported 100% dumbblood.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

Janet
Mar. 27, 2002, 02:17 PM
TBs and the race track.

There ARE weedy, hot TBs. They typically do not make good hunters (or good anything elses for that matter).

The racetrack business has changed. It used to be that a well bred, sound TB that just wasn't fast enough, or didn't try hard enough, was sold off pretty quickly, because there was no way for him to "pay his own way". Nowadays, if I understand it correctly, there are places to keep racing such a horse so that he at least pays his own way. He doesn't get sold off until he has been "worn out", and is no longer a good prospect for a sport horse (of any type). That isn't to say that there aren't ANY OTTBs suitable to become sport horses (they are out there), but that the supply is not as big as it once was.

Josie
Mar. 27, 2002, 02:41 PM
There is a breeder that breeds both Tbs and warmbloods and his explanation of the differences between the two was as follows"Put dumblood in jumping chute knocks down rail,comes back and knocks it down again. Put Tb in chute he knocks down rail and comes back and jumps higher". This breeder is from Europe and breeds lots of horses. Probably breeds the dumbloods because they are the latest fashion and alot of the people nowadays that are riding cannot ride a horse with a little blood and live to tell about it. As Rox said herself she likes the clunky horses??!! I certainly would not want to be going down to a 4' jump on a clunky horse!!!: /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

lauriep
Mar. 27, 2002, 02:44 PM
a WB is a TB crossed with a "cold blooded" breed, hence the name warmblood. So by definition, all the true WBs are half TB.

Laurie

Jair
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:00 PM
Well, not exactly anymore Lauriep /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its been more than 50 odd years since the original carriage horses (light draught) were used to initate the modern Hannoverian, Holstein, Oldenburg etc.. Since then its been infused with Anglo Arab, Selle Francais, Arab, Trakhener and Thoroughbreds to get to what is now the modern warmblood sporthorse.

While crossing a draft horse with a tb will sometimes get you a pretty nice horse, it does not give you a warmblood /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and please Josie/box of rox, can you stop the derogatory use of the word dumblood instead of warmblood? It makes you both sound incredibly dumb yourselves /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:13 PM
i would go down to 4' on a clunky horse-- wait, i do! but that's a personal preference. I HATE horses that make a bid at the jump. I just honestly dislike them, but a lot of people, like yourself, I'm guessing, would hate pushing a horse all the way around. when I'm trying a horse I want one that backs himself off the jump and studies it; some people want a horse that goes boldly forward. IMHO the average tb is bolder and braver than the average tb. I prefer the wb ride. some prefer the tb ride.

this thread has turned into something of a i like this better/i like that better deal. Going back to the original topic, because wb's are stupid, they tend to study the jumps, and because they're interested (to a fault?) they tend to jump rounder because they might be looking into a jump. it takes a certain kind of rider to deal with a horse that goes like that. Most people think I'm crazy/stupid for liking horses that do that. I find that, because of training methods (umm, gymnastics and sheet metal /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif j/k) the european horses just jump rounder and tighter. Because in america we are so obsessed (in a GOOD way) w/ safety and having a million different "baby tiny itty bitty green restriceted to horses who don't like rust colored jumps or yellow flowers" divisions, our horses seem to be less careful. they jump with a more open front end (I, btw, consider that to be loose and would not ride a horse that jumped like that because i'd be worried about them flipping) and a flater back.

let me remind the bb that the average american show is FAR better than the average european show, in terms of quality of horse/rider and esp. management/etc. On the other hand, the finest european shows, at the highest level, boast a higher quality of riding than the highest level of an american show.

Just to throw something out there: if they didn't, why would so many americans say that it is absolutely vital to go over to europe? why would someone like gabby salick say "I was totally unpreppared for the european experience" why would amanda baird come back to the us after some time in europe and be riding like a goddess? Yes, some americans, ie peter wyld (living and training in europe, though), molly ashe, allison firestone, etc. go over there and win. Ya know what? there are good american riders! i'm simply saying that, look at the list: europeans are dominating right now, and their horse power is greater than the american horse power. I AM RIDING TWO AND A HALF OF THIER REJECTS! SO IS EVERY OTHER AMERICAN THAT IMPORTS!

and finally, back to my wb/tb preferences: I like the wb ride better. that's my perogative. My mother has the most wonderful appendix (tb) quarter horse who's won everything at 3'. He's a verifiable family member and he carted me around as an 8 year old. She does not like a round jumper. He jumps flat.

I like a horse that needs to be pushed up to the base, and then jumps round over it. i have wb's because of that. One of mine is a huge monstrosity of an oldenburg-- he's six years old and is the horsey equivalent of a wildebeest. Tb ish legs, dwb neck, draught horse head, plow horse feet, oldenburg tail, and some weird pointy butt thing that's kind of like a donkey's. However, I have counter-cantered this horse up to a 4' sweedish oxer off an inside turn, gotten to the base on a slice and he's rocked back and powered over it because i've squeezed and supported w/ my hands. He's DUMB and POWERFUL enough to do that. I like wbs. You're not going to change that. If you want a horse that's going to take the bit, say "ok boss, over we go" and take you to the jump, don't buy a wb.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:16 PM
jair-- read my signature! I don't profess to be anything other than dumb! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

dogchushu
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:35 PM
Maggymay,

Interesting that you should ask if anyone had seen lower level jumper shows in Europe. Stephanie and I just went to Yorkshire recently for a training holiday aaaaand they had a little jumper schooling show while we were there! It was a schooling show (so not "the big leagues") and it was little jumps. Maybe 2'6" and 3'3"? (It was hard to tell since the heights were in centimeters and I can't do the conversion in may head. But that's what they looked like).

Nope, they didn't all ride smoothly with lovely auto releases, straight backs, legs never slipping back, etc. I saw a lot of no-release-death-grip-on-reins releases, perching, leaning, laying on the neck, wobbly legs, etc. And the course wasn't that tough. It was basically your outside-diagonal-outside-diagonal but with a few bending lines. All in all, it was no better or worse than hunter schooling shows I've seen here. (Well, except for the jump off when they had to did all of the above but faster! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

Maybe it's just England, but I've got to agree with you that there are less-than-stellar riders there too! No, not all of them, I'm not generalizing, I'm just saying that the US does not have a monopoly on poor riders.

"I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." -- Lily Tomlin

Jair
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
jair-- read my signature! I don't profess to be anything other than dumb! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know! that's why I said it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Being a geologist I have always laughed at your signature /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 27, 2002, 03:39 PM
well somewhere in the mass of overly opinionated downright rude nature of most of my posts i feel its necessary to have some sort of sense of humor. and I know that, theoretically, it is not possible to be as dumb as a box of rocks, because rocks, as inanimate objects, do not have the capacity to be dumb, but honestly you should see me in american hist/lit...it all makes sense zzzzzzzzzz

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

ProzacPuppy
Mar. 27, 2002, 08:41 PM
To Box of Rox- if only my teenager were half as well spoken/written...but I digress. I honestly think that you had some good points in your long post. There is no right or wrong, it is personal preference as to which suits a person better. Not all warmbloods are a tough ride, not all thoroughbreds are bold and brave, but those are the stereotypes and too a point they hold true. Most top level eventers are TBs or Irish/Aust TBs because they are bold, brave, fast and have a ton of heart and not alot of self-preservation instinct. Most of the A/O horses I've seen recently were warmbloods- possibly because of the power of the jump and the manageability of the personalities.

And as I said before the American thoroughbred (and I am truly a TB fan from decades back) is declining due to poor breeding - alot of claiming level, weedy horses that don't last out their 3 year old career soundly. There are sound, talented well bred TBs out there but there are an awful lot of badly bred, broken down ex-racers making the rounds of lower level classes just because they are very affordable. And the conformation that produces a winning racer tends to be opposite that which makes a winning jumper (don't do hunters, don't know nothin' bout no hunters).

My daughter and her horse have moved into the bigger fences and she is finding she actually needs to add leg and support him to the fence. She finds this very difficult and taxing. Up to 4' she just pointed and he went, loose reins, no leg and a hackamore. Her trainer and I joke that she is finally going to learn how to ride...

easyjumper1
Mar. 28, 2002, 05:01 AM
I'm confused here..you say the European amateur riders are just as bad as the ones in the US.. but in Germany ,which is a much smaller country, they do have about 90 riders who can ride an S-level course.
I take offence in the term "dumbblood". They are not dumber than any breed, and can be just as sensitive as any.
I don't care about the hunters, just like any other European. If Americans want to buy horses that are of inferior quality for jumping and pay big $$$ for it, that's just fine! More money for the European horse industry, and we also get rid of the inferior breeding material.
If the international European riders really were restricting their horses too much over jumps, they just wouldn't jump, here people again underestimate the sensitivity of the warmblood horses.
If you want to learn kids how to sit as still as possible on a horse over fences, thats just fine by me too. We'll just keep giving our kids a solid education, and keep winning the international competitions, thankyouvermuch! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
About the "TB/WB compitition"
Tbs are bred for racing, wbs are bred for jumping and dressage. So, REAL warmbloods always have an advantage. I bet the Tbs WERE really nice jumpers, but I don't see any in the big international competitions nowadays.

halfhalt
Mar. 28, 2002, 08:22 AM
Have you ever actually looked at the pedigree of any of the "100% dumbloods" imported from Europe that you seem so fond of denigrating. The typical Holsteiner or Hanoverian or Wesfalen AKA Wesphalian or whatever has infusion of TB blood often every other generation, via some famous TB sires that have profoundly influenced WB breeding in the last century - sires such as Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Ranzes (the latter an Anglo-Arab), etc....Nor are these considered WB-Tb "crosses" - they are bonafide warmbloods.

Educate yourself.

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 28, 2002, 08:49 AM
i don't disagree with that-- if they didn't wouldn't they be some really heavy coldblooded breed? I'm simply saying that I prefer wbs. Forgive me for not wanting to get all opinionated over this matter. I actually think it's very funny. Everyone should ride what they want. They'll get the best jump out of a horse that they ride well. I get along with a heavier horse. Some people get along with a lighter horse. I don't profess to be able to ride a wide assortment of horses; I respect greatly those who can.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

halfhalt
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:12 AM
As someone implied earlier, warmbloods were not bred from draught horses (cold-bloods) but instead pre-date them....but you're right in that using more Tb blood has definitely lightened them...

and lonewolf, the Tb infusions in modern warmbloods are via sires, at least in Europe breeding. It's only in N. America that breeders tend to use Tb mares - and that makes quite a difference apparently. And according to the Europeans, not a good difference either - they are strict adherents to the "Tb on top" approach. Therein lies another argument....

Kachoo
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:13 AM
I'm sick as a dog with some delightful variation of the flu my classmates have just been ever-so-eager to share, so I'm just going to address what comments my poor, feverish little mind can remember. Plus, since I don't know how to do the quote thing, I'll just paraphrase (and yes, these comments came from a couple of different folks, although I can't remember who):

*Comparing Elise Haas' riding to the riding of very seasoned international competitors much older than herself is STUPID!!!*

Ah, yes. But I'm comparing her to Dirk Hauser, who is around her age - under him, Zyphria was famed as being one of the most successful of the Zeus offspring ever. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard anything much from the horse since it came to Elise, and quite frankly, out of the people I've seen ride it, I still prefer Dirk's handling of it the best.

*Elise can get her horses around a Grand Prix course. Can YOU do that?*

See, what I can or cannot do would only be relevant if I was claiming that I, personally, was better than Elise. First of all, I'm not saying that Elise is a bad rider. I NEVER said that. What I'm doing is using her as an example of an American rider whose style doesn't suit her European horse as well as the style of its original (also European) rider did. Secondly, while no, I don't compete at the Grand Prix level, I think I am a competent enough horseperson, have spent enough time around competent horsepeople, and have devoted enough hours watching competent horsepeople compete, to tell when someone is better at handling a particular animal. It doesn't have to be limited to American vs. European riders. I can see that Dirk Hauser handled Zyphria better the same way that I can see that Marcus Ehning handles For Pleasure better than Lars Nieberg did. Doesn't mean I think Lars is a bad rider. It DOES mean I think he didn't ride the horse as well.

*How many of you have actually spent time in Europe, just hanging with regular horsepeople and going to shows?

Some time ago, I had the opportunity to compete in France (in the Fontainebleau area), and the schooling shows there showcased a whole different level of competition. Also, every summer for a few years now has been spent helping the Schmuckster haul stuff back and forth from Babenhausen or Bad Krumbach or wherever the heck else he's decided to base himself this time to any number of local or regional horse shows. Based on what I've seen there? Oh yeah, there's no shortage of crappy riders. But the riders who do the 1.30m+ are already (at this very basic, local level) better riders than most of the ones I see doing the high ammies and juniors here at Spruce (and no, not all their horses are easy or super-talented-looking). So yeah, I can only speak for a small area in Bavaria, which either says nothing or EVERYTHING /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

And now, I'm off to lie in my bed pathetically for a bit.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

halfhalt
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:17 AM
but at least you don't have the Brandon flu on top of that. So maybe it was karma that you missed the deadline...

From second hand experience, I second what you're saying about the calibre of the local European shows. People who i know were quite impressed with the overall quality of horse and riding - lots of exceptions of course - and said the shows were well and efficiently run too.

Kachoo
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:25 AM
How's it going /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif? Have you been able to do any spectatin' yet, or is that going to be later this week? If so, remember to keep an eye out for my friend Pam Murray and her horse Dino! I'm sure they're being stars at this show!

And yup to the way the shows are run. The ones I was at were so small that the starting bell was a guy in a car near the ring honking his horn /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but they were definitely run with the kind of clockwork efficiency you only see at the bigger venues here.

Oh, almost forgot - are you doing a writeup on this Winter Fair as well? If so, I'll keep an eye out for it!

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

Portia
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Its been more than 50 odd years since the original carriage horses (light draught) were used to initate the modern Hannoverian, Holstein, Oldenburg etc.. Since then its been infused with Anglo Arab, Selle Francais, Arab, Trakhener and Thoroughbreds to get to what is now the modern warmblood sporthorse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Jair, darling dear, you know better than that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It's been more than 200 odd years since the selective mixing of carriage, traditional Spanish, Arab, and TB horses (not heavy draught!) has been going on. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And it's been since about the end of WWI that they have bred for lighter purely sporthorse types rather than the all-purpose who could be a fine officer's riding horse but pull an artillery caison or farm wagon if necessary. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But thanks for making the point that a draft/TB cross is not, not, not a warmblood. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Why do people insist on comparing WBs and TBs like they're in some life or death battle against one another for survival? They have different strengths and weaknesses, just like every other breed of horse (or dog, or pig, or sheep, or goat.) Geez, you might as well start knocking Andalusians and Quarter Horses and Hackneys and Morgans and Standardbreds because they aren't TBs. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Vive la difference! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

******

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." Sen. Everett Dirksen

halfhalt
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:41 AM
and get to spectate all of Friday and Saturday - my back hurts already just anticipating those hockey arena seats....!

Yes, i am doing an article for Horse Sport again this year, but alas, none of the fun sidebar articles because i leave town for greener European pastures on thursday (2 weeks in Italy, 2 weeks in provence, yippee!) and wouldn't have time to finish a full-blown article in time (the sidebars take much longer than the main article). But i will watch for Pam for sure....

Midge
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:51 AM
First, I din't know why people keep saying things like, 'the europeans are laughing all the way to the bank because we go to Europe and paying big bucks for horses that are useless to them.' It has no meaning. There are tons of things with value to some people and little value to others, but the argument invariably comes up in any discussion about hunters.

Second, the huge majority of judges over the age of 30 prefer TB-type hunters. That said, it's their own fault that the WB-type has become dominant in the hunters. Any sign of brilliance, which actually used to be a requirement, is punished. Today's hunter is expected to lope to the jump, rocket off the ground, crack his back, snap his knees around his ears then land on the other side and lope away with no expression. Generally, it is easier to get that attitude from a WB-type, even if the jump quality isn't necessarily there.

It is frightening what can win in the hunters, based on the trip instead of the quality of the horse. The automaton wins, while the horse that jumped the course so beautifully it could bring tears to your eyes, shakes his head, dolphins for a couple strides after the jump and suddenly has a 72. Automatons are fine for the children's and adult's. After that, they should be hunters first.

****
'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'

DMK
Mar. 28, 2002, 09:57 AM
Midge, A-Double-MEN to your entire post.


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Justbay
Mar. 28, 2002, 11:28 AM
I have been following this thread with interest as an owner, breeder and rider of TBs, Hanoverian, and Hanoverian/TBx specifically for the hunters.

Now while I refuse to get into a p%ss%ng contest about that "hunters are junk" to warmblood breeders (not true according to the GERMAN VERBAND inspectors-whom I have spoken to regarding this), I know they look for more movement than what is a typical daisy cutter with a stiff shoulder and no suspension.

Europeans are breeding for a well rounded sport horse that can excell in "jumping" AND "dressage". Some horses excel in one discipline more than the other, but should be capable of being athletic and rideable to do both. Just because people are importing "jumping" horses for the hunters, it certainly does not mean those horses are inadequate in the Europens mind. Many are imported as jumpers and "jump too good" and get sold as high priced hunters!!!!

>>>>Quote from the Haoverian Stallion Licensing in Germany<<<<
6 youngsters, by TB and Anglo-Arabian sires were licensed including the Champion. Four were awarded premium status..this was a remarkably good group of sons by refining stallions<<<<<

Of the Celle's top 15 stallions, 5 have TB in the first generation. Just something to ponder.

A nice horse, that is well conformed, moves
freely and jumps round with scope, and has a good mind is a nice horse, no matter what the breed.
We all have our prefences. I don't think a warmblood jumps better than a TB, or a European horse jumps better than an American horse in general. Some of both stand out as individuals. Some breeding lines are better for certain characteristics.

My personal preference is a TB or TB/WBx, or a WB that "looks" like a TB!:) As long as it has the above qualities.

Lastly, I agree with most of what Laurie has expressed here, but wanted to point out from her comment:
_________________________________________________
I would put Riot Free, San Felipe, Touch the Sun, Isgilde, Numbers, etc. (the list goes on) against the horses winning today ANYTIME and bet on the outcome.

Laurie___________________________________________

I am assuming she was saying that those TBs would win against any today ( and I agree ) but wanted to point out that Isgilde WAS a Hanoverian.:)

Anyway, jut wanted to jump in the fray and add there are too many clunkers going around. At HiTS this spring, I heard a well known trainer call few others to the ring to watch his big bay horse go around the Pregreen. He said, "Now this one is a TB"....

mbp
Mar. 28, 2002, 11:50 AM
not a better or worse comment, but it is getting harder to find good distance bred TBs, and I think they tend (more so than the lower necked sprint bred horses) to excel more as hunters and jumpers. It is not so much "bad" breeding as that the track is looking for horses that make a turn by 2 or early 3 yo races, those are mostly sprints - so the breeding is geared to sprints.

I do think we are losing the abiity to teach our riders to ride a "hot" or blood horse, and I think it shows in what is happening in our international jumping ranks. Europeans keep getting their horses hotter - the "average" warmblood today looks MUCH MORE Thoroubred-ey than 25 years ago, but they keep getting better and better at handling the sensitive rides. That is a jumper, not a hunter, comment, but it shows in what we reward at our hunter levels too. A pretty finesse ride with boldness and lightnes doesn't always hold up in the ribbons against the metronome ride. I think you are more likely to get some WBs to "clock off" a round than a TB who will want to be more of a show off - use his/her muscles more. You typically won't get the same light, floating effortless and plain ol prettiness in the picture that you get from a good TB though.

ROX ain't so dumb -it is a matter of preferences.

Celtic Witch
Mar. 28, 2002, 12:12 PM
Have been staying out of the fray, but...

Having lived in Europe for 2 years now and having been based with a top International Brit (who only trains with the Germans), I feel that I have a reasonably good idea of the styles here.

What I have noticed is that, in the States, all jumping is highly influenced by the hunters and not always for the good. Form tends to get put before function (just take a look at modern day BigEq, but that's a whole other post). In Europe, form definitely follows function.

I have a tendency to come out of the jumper ring on my rising 4 baby greenie and whinge over my form. Rachel tends to tell me to shut up. "You got in deep to most, you left all the poles in their cups, and didn't hit his back or mouth. That is equitation."

Having trained extensively with a legend of the hunter world before moving to Europe, I sometimes tend to forget that.

And the horse's form isn't something the Europeans worry about over the small stuff (which is anything under 4'). My young stallion, Monty, isn't terribly tidy right now at 3'3. We don't worry about this as we realise that for him, fences of this height are so easy they are a joke. Why needlessly drill if he's going clean and under control?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There is a breeder that breeds both Tbs and warmbloods and his explanation of the differences between the two was as follows"Put dumblood in jumping chute knocks down rail,comes back and knocks it down again. Put Tb in chute he knocks down rail and comes back and jumps higher". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly true.

You can't put breeds in a box like that if you want to train successfully. You have to look at the individual. Right now, I am jumping two Throughbreds and two Dutch Warmbloods. One of my Thoroughbreds has an incredible jump and rarely drops a rail (she's currently jumping 3'9). The other jumps by braille and is forever losing poles (and she only jumps to 3'3 before she becomes a confirmed quitter). My Dutch stallion, Monty, rarely drops a pole and if he does, he learns from it and doesn't repeat. The other drops rails left and right the moment it becomes work (which is over 3'6 for this lazy boy).

Cheers,
Susie

Witch Haven Farm (http://www.witchhavenfarm.co.uk)
If you shoot for the moon and miss, you still get to be a star.

Kachoo
Mar. 28, 2002, 12:30 PM
Not a problem /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Just wanted to make sure everyone understood I wasn't trying to belittle anybody's riding. Like everyone else, I just have my opinions on which styles I think are more effective is all.

And hey, you're not too shabby as far as BB'ers go, yourself /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

Jair
Mar. 28, 2002, 12:38 PM
Don't worry Katchoo!, Ryan's ruffled-feather comments were aimed at me /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But as it were, you answered him re: the difference between different riders on same horse just beautifully /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I am hoping to make it to Spruce with Alice and Bambi next year - perhaps we will get to meet!

Kachoo
Mar. 28, 2002, 03:11 PM
Why, thank you /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. And let me just say now that I got a good chuckle out of the way you handled the "can you get your horse around a Grand Prix course" question. Whenever you do make it out this way, please let me know! I will still be around and will hopefully still be plugging away at those stubborn summer shows, and I would LOVE to meet you and your beasties!

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

spokanite
Mar. 28, 2002, 04:19 PM
...especially the ones who breed TBs?
Everyone seems to think if you're going to do well in the showring, you have to go to Europe and find a good horse there because America can't breed anything. That's wrong thinking in my book. America has produced some of the greatest jumpers and hunters in the world! And by-the-way most of them TB! I don't think the breeding is the problem these days, I think it's the attitude, level of skill, and trainers looking for a quick buck. TB's need riders not passengers. And if you're looking to be a passenger, then go buy a lazy warmblood. But, if you want to be a rider, a good one at that, then get on a young TB and take your time. There are excellent TB breeders in this country and Canada who produce outstanding show prospects, but nobody wants to take the time. The allmighty dollar speaks louder than training an skill.
America still produces quality horses...I just question the quality riders and trainers.

Jumphigh83
Mar. 28, 2002, 08:31 PM
What Spokanite said! (And said it well) Finally someone who gets the point.

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Josie
Mar. 29, 2002, 02:19 PM
Ditto Spokanite!!! I would love to challenge some of these people who are used to flogging around a course on their DBs get on a quality Tb and try and do the same couse with the same kind of ride. I know just the horse I would let them ride!! How about you Jumphigh can you think of any particular horse you would like to put up against alot of these DBs in the ring today???

Celtic Witch
Mar. 29, 2002, 03:08 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> TB's need riders not passengers. And if you're looking to be a passenger, then go buy a lazy warmblood. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I invite you to come ride some of my "dumbloods" (and possibly get an education?).

Y'all are accusing some of us of slagging off TBs while you then turn around and do that to another type. Hello pot? This is kettle...

Of our 10 jumpers, three are English Thoroughbreds, two are TB crosses. They happen to be the easiest rides.

All the Warmbloods require a rider who knows what they're doing and all are extremely sensitive (all wear snaffles both home and away). The only difference I find (and appreciate when I'm on my 5th horse of the day) is that our Warmbloods think before they react which is what people tend to interpret as dumb but I see as smart.

Yes, there are some Thoroughbred breeders who are breeding gorgeous sport horse types. But they are the exception with the rule being downhill horses bred for the track.

Those of you who are reminiscing about the hey day of the American Thoroughbred sport horse are remembering a time when when most of these horses were inherited from the Army. Now, most are inherited from the track.

Warmbloods do not have this split interest, so of course they dominate. Does that make them better than a good Thoroughbred? Hell no. But it does make them a better bet for the rider with only so much money (not to mention emotion) to spend on finding the right competition mount.

Cheers,
Susie

Witch Haven Farm (http://www.witchhavenfarm.co.uk)
If you shoot for the moon and miss, you still get to be a star.

Box-of-Rox
Mar. 29, 2002, 03:41 PM
and I'm not sure that people flog around on their warmbloods, either...although I was reluctant to get back into this argument. I know that I have to supply the engine for my wbs...when I flog around they stop.

------
no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?

Kachoo
Mar. 29, 2002, 04:02 PM
The "flog around" comment made me quirk an eyebrow as well - honestly, my two warmbloods take more finesse to ride than anything else I've ever sat on. One is rather lazy, but not while jumping, so there's an art to getting him fired up without frying his poor little brain. The other one is just young and very, very sensitive. Overuse or underuse either your hand or your leg or send him any mixed signals, and he doesn't know what to do with himself. He's very tough to ride but has a great jump - it's all in the feel and touch with both of them.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort

JinxyFish313
Mar. 29, 2002, 04:08 PM
why are you all still having this discussion (more like arguement)? Everyone knos you cant just make these generalizations. Its a horse by horse issue and in most cases a matter of preference.

http://radiofinderizer.net/cgi-bin/columbia.cgi?sf=1&s=yes&u=infamous3136&a=Nas

spokanite
Mar. 29, 2002, 04:24 PM
...American breeders verses European breeders. So many people are being led to believe that the Europeans produce a better horse. I beg to differ on that. Whether it be WB, TB, or any other breed, America can and does produce quality showstock. Convincing buyers is another story.
We have people who post on this board about nice horses going to the canners and how we must save them, but book an airline flight to Europe to buy their next show horse. Go figure....
Where's the proof that European horses far exceed the American bred horse? Oh, the list shows the best horses in the jumper ranks are European. Could it be the riders that have those horses high on the list? Could it be the training?
Who convinced you that the Europeans produce a better horse?

Jumphigh83
Mar. 29, 2002, 08:30 PM
Exactly (AGAIN) Spokanite. You read my mind. (scarey) /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Weatherford
Mar. 30, 2002, 05:16 AM
I love my ISH's, but I don't think any of them (and I will admit, they have plenty of TB in them), nor any of the warmbloods I have ridden can come close to having the HEART of a TB.

Not to say some do and don't - of course, heart is indefinable and individual. And, most horses are NOT put to the test!

When they are, it is definitely the TB's that come out on top IMHO.

DMK
Mar. 30, 2002, 08:13 AM
I agree with you on that one Weatherford... As a rule, a TB will jump a jump it isn't physically capable of getting over, run and jump in pain, and just in general work itself to death for you. Basically if you ask them to hurt themselves for you, they are game. Sort of a sobering responsibility, if you think about it!

The WBs I have been around remind me a lot of QHs (generally speaking) - they very much are aware of their capabilities and limitations, and they don't much care to put themselves someplace they might get hurt, which has the added bonus of taking care of a rider and letting a rider know where and when the horse has maxxed out without getting to a place where he hurts himself.

Honestly, I think the infusion of TB blood in any of the WB lines has added an element of that wonderful heart and refinement to many of the lines, and I am pretty sure those breeders had a clue what they were doing when they went down that road. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I still love my poor pathetic, downhill, hopeless example of ignorant American TB breeding that has conned the rest of the world into coming to our sales and paying millions for the promise our yearlings may bring to their country's breeding program. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

Darva
Mar. 30, 2002, 08:31 AM
I thank you all for a good read while I am waiting to go to the airport LMAO!! this thread is funny as H%$ /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jumphigh83
Mar. 30, 2002, 12:01 PM
Weatherford!!!! Brilliant. The etherial quality called "heart" sorely missing in horses with no blood. No matter how "warm" you make the warmblood it still isn't a Thoroughbred. The never say die attitude is irreplacable in the show ring. Since we have "diluted" our team blood we have been on a steady decline in international competition. Our finest hours were spent on AMERICAN THOROUGHBREDS. I wonder why Michael Matz and Rodney Jenkins gave up on the sport of show jumping? Could it be that they would rather train TB racehorses than ride WB wannabees? I also went the WB route and happily I have learned from my expensive mistakes. No more Eurotrash for me. I am going to the American Breeders for American TBs!

Betsy
Three Winds Farm NY

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

PTDeaconHP
Mar. 30, 2002, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
This is basically what I mean.

http://www.horseselect.co.uk/young/young64/young61.jpg

http://photos.equine.com/horsepics/381423.jpg

~Erin B #1
Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the UK horse is jumping a higher jump, so that may be why hes jumping differently
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

levremont
Mar. 30, 2002, 04:53 PM
I have a book with all the legends of American show jumping, and I must say I was shocked at the crosses that won a ton, a lot of TB's yes, but many strange crosses that happened to be great jumpers. I think that it is not realistic to think that we will go back to TBs over lighter WBs, and don't think that the courses today are the same as the so called "good old days" they are more technical and much harder to ride, the sport has evolved, so have the horses...( I have a wonderful TB bought of the track last year, he has a ton of heart, he is soo athletic very careful and yes, he was cheap, I think he might have as much jump as my big warmbloods, in which case he will be wonderful, but as in warmbloods there are many good ones, many not so talented ones and a few amazing ones!)I think it's a matter of the ride that suits you best, they are completly different rides.

PTDeaconHP
Mar. 30, 2002, 06:08 PM
whats all the fighting for in here?
oy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

PTDeaconHP
Mar. 30, 2002, 06:13 PM
I really don't think it matters what breed any hunter is! Some horses that are totally mixes can be fabulos hunters, and some pure breed horse could be terrible!
I think that it doesn't matter what the breed the horse is, but it's personality and the way he/she jumps! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Why fight over it? Can't we just agree that one doesn't have to be better than the other?

levremont
Mar. 30, 2002, 06:38 PM
but I really did not mean to come off as "fighting" just making an observation, being so called " Eurotrash" myself I thought it was a "silly" thing to call most warmbloods... you have to admit even if you do love TBs that warmbloods have their qualities ( Why are they predominant in show jumping otherwise?) so I was pretty sure that jumphigh was just kidding about it, if not that is her oppinion and I doubt it is shared by many ( jumper riders at least). I do however like good TB and find they have a lot of quality if they are bred well and started well, the more time I spend in the US the more I like a nice TB ( I even bred my "light" SF mare to a TB stud). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Celtic Witch
Mar. 31, 2002, 05:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Whether it be WB, TB, or any other breed, America can and does produce quality showstock. Convincing buyers is another story.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I agree with. Here, my stallion's top value is a little over 10k. However, horses his age by the same stallion (and out of lesser mares) fetch 30k+ in the US. If some of you only knew how little was paid for the imports you fork over a year's salary for...

However, while the US is producing some very nice horses, we're still behind our European counterparts and for some reason, many breeders seem determined to make their own mistakes rather than learn from those already made by the Europeans. The US warmblood societies are a joke and while most breeders choose/use top stallions, the mares are generally TB flat racing rejects. This does not make for top sporthorse breeding.

With limited funds, I need to buy proven. And with said limited funds, I cannot pay the silly prices American breeders want. Whether I am at home in the States or here in the UK, it is cheaper to fly to the continent and import.

When I was looking for a top prospect a year ago, I didn't care where the animal was bred and whether it was TB, Irish, WB or a cross. I simply wanted proven lines and bags of potential. I eventually found that in Holland, having looked all over the UK. All said and done, from purchase price to importing to paying a finder's fee, I paid 4500 sterling for a two year old. I couldn't get the same horse for that in the UK or US.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where's the proof that European horses far exceed the American bred horse? Oh, the list shows the best horses in the jumper ranks are European. Could it be the riders that have those horses high on the list? Could it be the training? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure the training has heaps to do with it. The British whinge about how their riders aren't winning because of a lack of good horses. I see it differently. When the British team was tops the courses weren't half as technical. The British (and even Americans) tend to rush their horses through the levels to reach GP as soon as possible and therefore do not produce a horse who is truly broke.

Our continental European counterparts take things much, much slower. All of our German/Dutch trained GP jumpers are beautifully schooled on the flat (and all go in snaffles) with confirmed passage and piaffe. No, they're not going to go win GP dressage, but when I ask a horse to come back and get on its hocks there is no argument and the horse is fully capable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Who convinced you that the Europeans produce a better horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple research.

Cheers,
Susie

Witch Haven Farm (http://www.witchhavenfarm.co.uk)
If you shoot for the moon and miss, you still get to be a star.