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View Full Version : Cool...or Not so Hot?? you tell me!!



*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:47 PM
Hey!! ok, this is my new 6 year old 17' thoroughbred! he came off the track when he was 4 and had only jumped 2' when i got him this summer... he is now turning into a 3'6 jumper! tell me what you think!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:47 PM
Hey!! ok, this is my new 6 year old 17' thoroughbred! he came off the track when he was 4 and had only jumped 2' when i got him this summer... he is now turning into a 3'6 jumper! tell me what you think!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:49 PM
here is another pic of him!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:50 PM
his first show last summer...3'3

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:52 PM
just chillin out!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 20, 2003, 09:54 PM
here is the last pic!! its not that super..but yeah!! you decide!! tell me what you guys think about him PLEASE! thnx mucho!

Samson
Jan. 20, 2003, 10:18 PM
he is very handsomehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif congradulationshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The best thing for the inside of a person is the outside of a horse!!!!

Small Change
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:23 AM
He's a cutie! Just be careful with the draw reins around his feet. You knew you'd get that comment when you posted that picture, didn't you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Steph http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

Anne
Jan. 21, 2003, 05:02 AM
He would probably jump in better form if you weren't ducking halfway up his neck. He is very attractive, though.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

Courtknee202
Jan. 21, 2003, 06:57 AM
He is very nice! I'll trade you him for two cats who like to pull everything out of the trashcan http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:10 AM
haha!! i love my pony!!

Goofy TB Mare
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:17 AM
Awesome Pony! Go Mr. Jake!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:28 AM
thanks man!!

Heather Dobbs
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:41 AM
he's cute, and looks like he'd make a good children's jumper...very adorable http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif good luck!

~*~it's all good...and i'm all that~*~

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:44 AM
thank you!

rileyt
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:11 AM
I cannot resist.

Your horse is a doll, and shows a lot of potential... but how about slowing down, jumping lower, and taking all the CRAP off him. I mean, really, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you need draw reins, a three-ring curb bit, and a figure eight noseband to control him... and you're still jumping up his neck... I think you need to drop back to 2' fences and learn how to ride.

Sorry. But it makes me really peeved to see someone who is so proud of having rushed her horse to 3'6" when its plain as day he's not ready.

And if your trainer suggests all this stuff... get a new trainer.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Goofy TB Mare
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:18 AM
rileyt- I'm sure she appreciates your opinion, but the owner is only 14! Give her a break!! She works that horse's butt off on the flat and he just happens to be a VERY strong horse. They also ride him in the dee ring withn the lifters, so she isn't always using all of that stuff. And trust me, I've seen that horse jump 2' and he doesn't need to go back to it. Anyways....i've seen pro's schooling their grand prix horses before and you would not believe the amount of stuff those horses are wearing.

And please don't insult the trainer...you dont even know her! We have one of the top ponies in the zone and AO Hunter's in the zone. I think she's doing a pretty darn good job.

That's fine if you don't agree with what she is doing, but dont'insult people.

[This message was edited by BooBear90 on Jan. 21, 2003 at 01:28 PM.]

rileyt
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:27 AM
My intent really is not to insult this girl. And I believe you when you say the horse is strong. But IMO its not a question of how high the horse can jump. He may be clearing the jumps with ease... but if he's bolting down to the fences (or is only restrained by the use of all the stuff on him), I think you should take a step back... to 2' if necessary, and do some work. Not bump him up to 3'6". Its a question of teaching him to relax and listen to the rider. The fact that this girl is severely jumping up the horse's neck in all of the jumping pictures tells me that the RIDER should not be jumping 3'6". And is in a position where she is unable to help this horse.

And with all respect BooBear... I have known trainers who coached zone champions and such who weren't worth their salt. (I'm not saying that is the case here).

I'm telling you what I see... And I see SEVERAL tell tale "red flags" that make me think this is a bad situation. But I could be wrong.

Perhaps my "learn to ride" comment was a bit strong. But I think it is irresponsible horsemanship to take a horse who had never jumped more that 2' as of last summer, and have him going 3'6" by winter. That is RUSHING the horse. And the crap needed to control him, in my mind, confirms my suspicion.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*In Your Dreams*
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:27 AM
The horse is cute. Although I think he is stepping over these jumps, not using himself, because he does not have to since he is so big.

If I were you I would also go back and school over smaller stuff, mainly for your position. No, for jumpers you don't have to be an "eq princess" but you do have to be an effective rider, and you can not be effective while laying on his neck.

It is only at the tree loaded with fruit that the people throw stones. Proverb

second chance
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:48 AM
I somewhat agree with RileyT. I don't think there is a need for so many unnecessary gadgets to ride the horse. I don't care how hot it is or how hard to ride it is, you shouldn't have to use a 3 ring, drawreins, and what looks to be a running martingale and a figure 8 on him!

I would go back to the D ring w/o the other stuff and just have the fig.8.

The horse looks like he likes to leave long and jump flat. He looks like he's strung out when approaching the fences (just by the way he looks when he jumps, he's stretched out quite a bit).


I would do some gymnastics, shorter distances (say 6-8" shorter than the regular 2 stride etc.) This will make him learn it's not good to rush fences when going into a line etc.

BTW, the 3 ring and martingale combo acts exactly like a gag snaffle.. whynot just switch over and use a gag.. they have the same action, whereas the 3 ring when pulled puts pressure on the poll and makes the horse bring his head down while the martingale isn't allowing him to put it down at a level that it could be at because of pressure. To me it just doesn't make sense.

He's a cute horse with a lot of potential, both you and him need to go back to the basics until you have them firmly established.

JMHO!

suzy
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:54 AM
"Walking with me" is a really pretty picture of both of you. I think some valuable observations have been made regarding equipment and your upper body position. Simply from a safety perspective, it would be better for both of you to not get so far forward and to the side on his neck.

Good luck with this handsome horse!

JAGold
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:57 AM
If the rider is leaning up the horse's neck over the fence and throwing her hands away in the air, she is not in a strong, secure position to balance and steady the horse on the landing side. If the rider can't slow the horse without all the gear shown in the pictures, then the horse must be quite strong. The rider therefore needs to go back to the basics to have a secure position and ability to teach the horse not to run at the fences. If the rider's position isn't any better over smaller fences, then more flat work, riding without stirups, and observation of others to understand the influence of the rider's body on the horse's jump is necessary.

Riding isn't a race. The one who gets to the bigger fences first isn't necessarily the winner. --Jess

PTDeaconHP
Jan. 21, 2003, 11:01 AM
Hes really cute! I would just say you need to not lean up and duck to the right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
He really is adorable! Such a sweet face!!


**Member of the Mighty thoroughbred clique**
***"There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse."***

findeight
Jan. 21, 2003, 11:10 AM
You may see leading GP riders with some unusual equipment but I doubt you'd see it on a youngster like this 6 year old and these riders make their students school in much more basic equipment.

I have to go with what I see from those around me. They would be working this horse and rider extensively on the flat to solve those basic obedience problems that result in rushing and getting "hot".

For example a talented Jr Jumper from my barn just moved to Florida and started riding with MGE. Weeks on the flat-no jumping-schooling some of her wonderful competitive upper level horses as well as the students own very good jumpers. All the time working of softening and suppling and acceptance of the aids.

IMHO this horse and rider would benefit from a similar regime.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:01 PM
hey...um, too bad i also have a 14'3 horse that was year end champ last year and shows currently in childrens... if you dont like the way i jump tooooooo bad! if my horse likes it, its ok...right?? YES!! he can go w/o all the crap... i hvae the 3 ring balancing on the EASIEST hole... and the draw reins just tuck his neck more b/c he has a tendacy to grab the bit!! he is now 7 and he got off the track b4 his 4th birthday...wouldnt you say 3 years of 2' is enough of a break??? YES... and dont diss my trainer! you dont even know her... here is a pic of my pony and if you dont like the way i jump on her either then I AM SORRY!! if i stay on his back he gets really upset and bucks...so i have to stay UP!! ok?

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:05 PM
go look at boobear's entry on WONDERFUL PONY1! that is my pony...are you going to completely diss her too??? im only 14 so NO i dont know everything but i have been riding since i was 6.....so i think im old enough to pick my own style of riding...u think? sorry if i sound rude

SillyHorse
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:08 PM
Honey, you claimed to want us to tell you if it was "not so hot," but when people told you that...

You might want to lose that chip on your shoulder and listen to what some very knowledgeable folks here have to say. Just a suggestion.

SillyHorse
~ I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to.

rileyt
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:09 PM
My bad. I didn't know you only wanted to hear how great you are. I thought the title of your thread was "Cool.. or Not so Hot?? you tell me!!" Well, I thought "not so hot" and I told you. mea culpa

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cruising
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
Hey!! ok, this is my new 6 year old 17' thoroughbred! he came off the track when he was 4 and had only jumped 2' when i got him this summer... he is now turning into a 3'6 jumper! tell me what you think!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you ask for opinions on a public BB, you have to be prepared to take the advice that you may not appreciate.

* B E L E N *
My Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/lovingit09)
That life can change, that you're not stuck in vain
We're not the same, we're different tonight

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:18 PM
ok im sorry..YES YES i want advice...but dont completely diss us! thanks....u can keep giving advice just pls be nicer about it!!

slp
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:19 PM
And good advice it is as well Sunkist...many of the people that post here are trainers and judges; most of them are very knowledgable as to what they are talking about. Some of them might even judge at shows you attend. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
When you ask for other people's opinions you must be prepared to take the good with the bad.
Susan

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:22 PM
thats fine.......u can judge me and my horse, but not my trainer

Cruising
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:23 PM
I don't see any MEAN replies. I see ones that aren't exactly POSTITIVE, but filled with helpful advice. Try to listen to them, you may find they can be of huge help to you.

* B E L E N *
My Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/lovingit09)
I know I was born and I know that I'll die.
The in between is mine.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:25 PM
i like it when u give me advice so i can fix it and get BETTER... but "GET A NEW TRAINER" isnt called for...u know?? sorry if i made it sound like i didnt want comments about me!! I DO!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:33 PM
ok?? so u can give advice on ME and MY HORSE!! please!!

rileyt
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:42 PM
Look. I am really not trying to "diss" you (or your trainer). There are a lot of positives: i.e., your horse looks like he has a lot of potential... and you look like a very athletic rider.

I am concerned, however, because if you were my student, you would not be jumping 3'6" on this horse right now. The number of gadgets on him also make me nervous. You're right, I don't know your trainer... but historically when I have seen too many students doing too many things on too green horses too early, it is because a) they're not working with a trainer, or b) the trainer is incompetent, or is pushing too fast for the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry if that sounds like a personal attack on your trainer. It's not intended to be... but I wonder why she would let you go forward in the way I'm seeing here... A few pictures doesn't give me insight into the whole situation, but I see enough here that is going wrong, that it makes me question your trainer's techniques. It's not a personal attack. It's a difference of opinion.

And, if your horse doesn't need all that stuff... then why are you using it?

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

FairWeather
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:50 PM
Out with the gadgets, in with good riding!!!
__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

[This message was edited by FairWeather on Jan. 21, 2003 at 04:16 PM.]

lonewolf
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>so u can give advice on ME and MY HORSE!! please!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okey dokey. I think that you just need to wait a little more at the base. Let your horse jump up to you, concentrating on not throwing your upper body at him. It will be kinda hard to do at first if he is strong, but it will also help you to keep him balanced at the base.

For your horse, I'd work a lot on flatwork, making him stay really round and balanced and responsive at all gaits. Do lots of transitions and make him canter lots of poles, making him keep his shape. Doing gymnastics will help him too. He looks pretty athletic, and sometimes its harder to work with a horse like that, because they know they don't *have* to work hard to make it over. But persist!

I don't think your pictures are too bad, though. You both look athletic and confident, and your horse is definitely not too challenged by the height. I think that the original criticisms of you may have been somewhat accurate, but they could have been voiced a little less harshly. And btw, the picture of him walking next to you is lovely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing."
--Robert Benchley

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:55 PM
thank you!!!!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 12:58 PM
thanks for giving GOOD ADVICE that will HELP ME w.o completely dissing my horse!

KJoy
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:03 PM
The original post asked for comments, so those of you who gave your opinions were justified in doing so. But, everyone posting here needs to be cognizant of their choices of words and tone. You can express an opinion and offer constructive criticism without being so blunt and harsh. I would be horrified if I had asked for comments and got those harsh responses! (Not to mention that most people respond to highly critical and harsh comments in a defensive manner, and cannot even learn from them.) Please try to think of other people's feelings and construct your responses in a kind manner.
Thanks.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:10 PM
thanks Kjoy!! i appreciate it BIG TIME!!!!

jackson
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:27 PM
I honestly think that your horse is gorgeous (so is the pony). You seem to have your own style. That is good. Do what works for you, go to as many clinics as you can and never stop learning. It looks to me as if your horse is almost bored. He is kinda flat in the pics I see. Maybe he needs more width to show scope. Or maybe that is the best of his ability. My friends hunter looked like crap at 3' but won every 3'6" class he was in! A lot of the pics look like they were taken too early or he maybe took off from a really deep spot. As for your position; take a pic of anyone jumping a 5' fence that is 5' wide and you will get the rider in the same position. The only problem people are having with your doing it is that the horse will not come up to where you are at a fence height of 3'6". But then if you look at any pics of good hunter trainers (who can have any position they want) they lay and duck and what not. (How do you think they get those heads down so far?) Do what works. Obviously if that doesnt work, dont do it. You are a great rider from the pony pic, maybe the position of you on the horse throws people. You may be too quick with your body and making too big of a deal out what you are jumping. talking from experience, that is my problem.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

MRrider
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:29 PM
i think everyone needs to relax and just look at what is going on here. People need to be less mean about their critism and naybe make a few good remarks too. Also, about the trainer thing. Many people (myself included) have trainers that are good with them and the people have a good time riding with them. when other people diss their barn and trainer (this has happened to me a lot) they tend to get defensive. Trainers and their teaching varies so much that it it too hard to judge from a picture whether or not the trainer is good. Some of you have very good reasoning about why the trainer may be teaching the rider bad eq, but really, you can't. Maybe the trainer likes an aggressive rider, and encourages his/her riders to ride forward. and i really dont think that her horse is that green if she has had him for over 4 years. Please dont be mad at me for this comment. I just thought that maybe we need an overall look at this situation.

PS: i loooove the picture of u and yur horse standing next to each other. Your horse's face is soo cute

Each handicap is like a hurdle in a steeplechase, and when you ride up to it, if you throw your heart over, the horse will go along, too.
-Lawrence Bixby

Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people.
W. C. Fields (1880 - 1946)

Lost In Space
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:33 PM
I understand you being upset about the trainer comments but please maybe they see something training wise that you don't. I know people who believe that their trainers are the most knowledgeable person they know horsewise! But to the rest of the horse community we know that they (trainers) know very little. If someone suggest another trainer don't take it personally as if you've done something wrong but maybe this trainer is not the right one for you or the horse. I've changed trainers for different reasons. I guess the main reason was that, what we needed at that time, either horse or rider, wasn't being met. We've learned so much from each of them. Good luck!

fleur
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:40 PM
Regardless of equipment, etc., you definitely need to strengthen your leg over these bigger fences! You might benefit from shortening your stirrups a few holes, and keep in mind the angle between your calf and thigh as well as the angle between your torso and your thigh. I made a little diagram showing you where you want to have your leg hit on his side as well as how your back and butt should be. Hope this helps a little. You guys look good, just make sure you aren't overfacing yourself or him.

*EMMA*

LiveToRide
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:46 PM
hey,

i know exactly how you feel about people saying stuff about your trainer, a lot of people talk to me about how they dont like mine, because she is mean, but she isnt, she jsut gets mad when ppl dont listenm or do stupid stuff!!

your horse is SOOOO cute! and you look like a nice rider. i agree with everyone that you just need to strengthen your legs, and get a little more secure so you dont throw yourself over the fences.

hehe, nice pics, bubye!

It's just so confusing!!!!

Instant Karma
Jan. 21, 2003, 01:48 PM
Draw reins over fences in my opinion is a *big* nono. And throwing your body like you are doing in the pictures is going to make a horse that's quick off the ground, even MORE quick off the ground and even more flat and quick on the other side. Also, tossing so much weight on your horse's shoulder and neck is going to make him very heavy on the other side of the fence. Your right leg is way out behind you as well and your heel has come up. I am thinking your horse is very honest because a few rides on a stopper and you would learn real quickly how riding like that will get you dumped.
If you worked on staying balanced over the fence, you would be in a better position to keep him balanced as well and may realize that you don't need all of those gadgets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin and Instant Karma
"Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what IS that thing?!"
~Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
http://hometown.aol.com/ws6transamgirl/index.html

Dakotawyatt
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:17 PM
I feel as though I must throw in my opinion here...I agree with the ducking comments, and Emma's diagram is perfect, Sunkist!! I feel you should really read the advice other posters have given you and just ignore the ones about your trainer. Trainers all have different reasons for what they do, and as a rule, a few pics is not enough to go on.

My comment is about all the equipment. You can argue with me all day, but not every horse is a snaffle horse. I rode a former GP TB mare that could NOT be ridden in a snaffle while jumping. I worked with her for 2 years (18 yo mare), and it took me a year to be able to flat her in a Dr. Bristol, and then it was only cantering in small circles on a loose rein. She couldn't go the whole ring without me hauling her down. In lessons we rode in a 3 ring with reins on 2nd and bottom hole, a standing, a german, and a tight flash. We did exercises out the wazoo, trails, LOTS of flatwork, circles, poles, caveletti, small crossrails, everything!!! It was a huge accomplishment for me to be able to 'give' her the reins at a trot. It was not a question of me being capable, my trainer being capable, or the horse being rushed. She just needed the "gadgets" to be rideable. Let me say, though, that may not be the case with Sunkist's horse. I just feel that some horses cannot be safely jumped on a soft, loose snaffle rein.

~Jenny~

"The daughter who won't lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable." (Samantha Armstrong)

Bumpkin
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:22 PM
The diagram was perfect http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Your horse is really that tall, and those jumps are really 3'6?
I just don't see it, but JMHO.

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

Romismoke
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:40 PM
ok, i think your horse is awesome and you are a good rider! Not EVERYONE is perfect and not every horse is perfect. It is NOT true that every horse can be jumped in a snaffle. I mean come on, in real life there are horses who, no matter how much flat work and how much you get back to the basics will never be able to jump around in a snaffle. Yes, I do agree that draw reins, running martingale and such is maybe a bit too much, but as long as it is safe and your horse is happy, it is really nothing to make a big deal about. Please don't anyone get mad at this post, I just really think some people said some really harsh things, expecting everyone to be perfect. Yes, she asked to critique, but she didnt ask to insult.
I think you and your horse are awesome and good luck in the future!

*In Your Dreams*
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:41 PM
** Wow, flashbacks..to me 6 months ago. **

I am sticking with my first post though, you can not be effective while laying on the horses neck. Think of streching up with your back and neck, if I remember correctly, you did have good eyes though.

Your 14.3 hand horse and you look like a very good pair. If you still have him, I would go back and school on him so you don't get into any bad habits while riding your 6 year old.( greenies can mess your position up)

Good luck, but remember, people go by what you post and how you type. Keep working. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is only at the tree loaded with fruit that the people throw stones.
* French Proverb

~LF
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne:
He would probably jump in better form if you weren't ducking halfway up his neck. He is very attractive, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd second that.

And that diagram is a great idea!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mcmIV
Jan. 21, 2003, 02:50 PM
Yea, excellent diagram emma!

It really put how weak the leg is into perspective. At first glance, on my (worksized) IE screen so i can browse undercover, it looked like she was just ducking badly, but probably had an ok leg... I didn't look hard at it.

But the leg is a big big problem. That is evidence of no base of support, you are goosing him over the fence with your heel, you are probably chasing him over it without meaning too. And of course he may be rushing now as a result.

Check out some GM critques in PH magazine... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He would suggest you spend time on cross poles until you have a better leg. Maybe you consider that harsh, but at the VERY least you should be ultra focused on fixing this.

Go to a clinic with a Name.... you might be shocked at what you don't know.

A rider with a leg and seat as insecure as this over a fence shouldn't be using drawreins and big bits for control.....you need to recognize this in yourself.

Maybe a couple of pictures aren't enough to get the whole story, but when you post a picutre for critque, one ASSUMES that you are posting the best you have. Therefore, if this is what you consider your best riding, or at least an average exmaple of your riding, you might want to take some of the critisims to heart.

And you know what? Don't take this 'personally', this is somethign ALL riders go through. The thing to do is to recognize your faults and go about setting mature goals to change them so you can be the best you can be. Do it right the first time.

Good luck!

martha

Bumpkin
Jan. 21, 2003, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
** Wow, flashbacks..to me 6 months ago. **

I am sticking with my first post though, you can not be effective while laying on the horses neck. Think of streching up with your back and neck, if I remember correctly, you did have good eyes though.

Your 14.3 hand horse and you look like a very good pair. If you still have him, I would go back and school on him so you don't get into any bad habits while riding your 6 year old.( greenies can mess your position up)

Good luck, but remember, people go by what you post and how you type. Keep working. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_It is only at the tree loaded with fruit that the people throw stones.
* French Proverb _<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da

GotSpots
Jan. 21, 2003, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> take a pic of anyone jumping a 5' fence that is 5' wide and you will get the rider in the same position. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, no. I would bet that there has never been a picture of Bill Steinkraus or Hugh Wiley in that position, even over a monster fence. Heck, you wouldn't see that position with an eventer at Rolex (ok, so the fences there are only 4' tall, but they can be far wider). The size of the fence does not per se cause a leg to swing back or the rider to duck.

Lily
Jan. 21, 2003, 03:47 PM
Sunkist, your horses are very cute, and you look like a good rider. But there's always room for improvement, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think anyone's intention was to "dis" you, your horse, or your trainer, but instead to point out some shortcomings in your training program.

In my opinion, horses should never jump with draw reins. Your horse's draw reins are dangerously long, and run the risk of tangling in his legs over a jump.

It does seem like you are using too many gadgets. Regardless of what you've accomplished on your small horse, riding this greenie is obviously a whole different experience. You could use more work on the flat to improve your position and become more secure.

I think you would also benefit from a lesson or clinic with another trainer, to get another set of eyes watching you and your horse. And that's not to insult your trainer in the slightest; I think everyone can benefit from another opinion about their riding now and then.

starman
Jan. 21, 2003, 03:50 PM
Another thing that you might want to try is jumping the smaller fences w/o stirrups, this will make your seat and leg stronger and help your upper body some too!!

Just like my trainer says, "Every rider's style is different. I can make you ride like me, and you cant make me ride like you."

Loyal servant of Queen Joker Britches. Best friend of Haidas Poisen. Confused partner in crime with Skys the Limit.

countingstrides
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:23 PM
Starkist - - JMO - If he ever stops - even once - you will understand why everyone here is telling you to sit back. Once you've committed to the forward ride, all it takes is one stop, and you'll be over his head. It's simply unsafe.

And I would agree that removing all the gadgets, and working on bringing your body back, will help slow him down tremendously. Trust me, I hear it myself in EVERY lesson "Body Back!". Work on lots of transitions, and go back to ground poles and cavaletti. 3'6" is fun and exciting, but it's also dangerous if you are not prepared and don't do it right all of the time.
Be careful, and have fun. You two are a pretty pair.

RumoursFollow
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:26 PM
Although I think people can be harsh on this board sometimes... if you read past some of the snippiness, there is almost always good advice to be found.

I have four horses. ALL of them are very green, three of them I bought off the racetrack, the fourth I bought as a two year old and broke myself and taught him everything he knows.

In the interest of teaching my horses to jump in the best form that they can do naturally, I know that it is vital that I remember not to jump up the neck. There are many reasons why.. including that unbalancing a baby by throwing more weight onto their neck over the jump means when you start to land you're going to have to search for your balance. When you're riding a young horse, you have to be balanced all the time... since in general they are always searching for theirs.

2nd of all, if I throw my hands (and arms.. which naturally is followed by the rest of me) up my horses necks, that giant release is like a "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" from me, and kind of an extra pump of the gas for the landing from the jump. If your horse is hot, you dont want to throw him away over the jumps. That just means that you have more horse to rein back in on the other side.

Back to the balance issue, especially when/if you plan to move up on this horse, once you start jumping what he considers a real fence, if you toss your body up there like that you're going to cause him a cheap rail. I learned this the hard way MANY MANY MANY times riding jumpers when I was a junior. Riding babies has helped me infinitely, as I knew that I HAD to be aware of the placement of my body over the jump, and it has translated to an awareness now on everything that I ride.

I know (from my own experience by what I used to do) sometimes if you're going fast in the jumpoff and you go to leave long you kind of toss yourself up there to keep with the motion of the horse and stay out of his way. While these are good intentions, this is the time when it is MOST important to not jump up his neck, since it will be even harder for him to jump clean.

I think your horse is cute, and I think that the right tack is what works. If you and your trainer believe that all that is what you need, then that is your business. Frankly I could never ride your horse, mainly because I could never remember to put all of it on. But if it works for you, then its fine with me.

-------------------------------------------------------
Formerly known as RumoursFollow

After all, I did sell him almost a year
and a half ago... lol.
---------------------------------------------------------

Diary
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:26 PM
I really just could not help myself on this thread. With such "maturity" expressed by the orginial poster, which frankly, just made me angry! Anyway, moving on, your horse has the potential to be lovely, he looks like an honest, try hard, good expression kinda guy. However, you're position is leaving much to be desired and is probably greatly affecting how well he is able to jump! Your base of support is well, almost non-exsistant. Your heel isn't down, you're leg has slipped back and you're ducking hard. The release doesn't particulary bother me because some horses may need to learn not to balance on the riders hand in the air.

On the issue of tack I concur with the other posters, it is simply ridiculus what you have on him. Draw reins are fine with me to school in either attached to a yoke or on the sides, however, I find it to show in them demonstrating an ill-schooled unprepared horse. Also, the figure 8 is a bit excessive and if you can get a hold of an older Margie Goldstein Engle article she wrote about why she does not allow her students to use 3 rings, simply because they don't realize how powerful they can be, even on the lightest setting. I think you're use of a running martingale is tackful and well thought through.

On a final note, though alittle off topic, the mismatched blue and pink polos are fine for schooling but, obtrusive and distracing in the show ring. Maybe switch to a nice pair of Eskadron open-fronts or leather open-fronts.

You think you know but you have no idea this is the diary of...

ximmer
Jan. 21, 2003, 04:29 PM
Hello http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just wanted to tell you that like your boy, my old horse was very, very strong. He was always trustworthy, but with a mouth of steel. The funny thing (not ha ha funny) was that my ex trainer used to have me use EVERY gadget in the book with him. I cringe when I think about it, but I was about your age and had complete trust in my superiors. Well, wouldn't you know that none of them really worked for very long. What ended up working was the RIGHT bit and the right ride. It took me a long time to learn how to ride him, but when I did the pulling and rushing went away. I am not saying you should get a new trainer, but maybe take some dressage lessons to help you learn how to get more control. Dressage helped me tremendously. Believe me, 14 is young and you have lots of time with your cute horse.

Good luck. You look like a talented rider and I love love love your horse! Don't take anything wrong here. We've all just been through a lot of stuff and we don't want you to make some of the same mistakes.

ximmer

Anne
Jan. 21, 2003, 05:24 PM
If you're curious about how your body position can affect your horse's jump, look closely at the second picture BetsyPony161 posted on the other thread of you and the palomino pony. He's knees are up but he's severely lying on his side, which is a major fault in a hunter's jump. In that picture you're close to his neck, but not ducking to one side. Even still, your horse's jump in that picture is giving away your habit. By habitually throwing your body to one side, you throw his balance off and he jumps crooked with his body.

We are not being mean - you posted the photos and sought opinions.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

[This message was edited by Anne on Jan. 21, 2003 at 09:13 PM.]

Pirateer
Jan. 21, 2003, 06:22 PM
Hey Diary...calm down. Not everyone can or wants to show in eskadrons or leather open fronts. If you look at some of the o/f pictures, they are with leather open fronts and ankles. There is ONE picture with the blue and pink polos. I'm betting it was schooling show, so she felt like having fun and matching her shirt.

But, now I suppose I'm feeding a troll, so I'm gonna go now.

Rebecca
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://www.angelfire.com/darkside/smited/index.html

Surgeon General's Warning: Avril Lavigne is bad for your health

SBT
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:01 PM
Well, I read this entire thread...
...which proves, beyond a doubt, that I have no life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sunkist, I think you have the makings of a good rider, and I think your horse has potential, too. I agree that you should experiment with other kinds of bits/martingales, though. Go back to really little jumps, and find the mildest bit he will go in. Don't use any martingale or draw reins. Take everything back to square one, adding things only as necessary. Maybe you can borrow a whole bunch of bits from your trainer, and spend a week trying different things.

As for your position, you are definitely jumping ahead. I do this, too, and believe me, I've learned the hard way that it's very unsafe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've eaten lots of jumps because I threw my upper body, and the horse stopped. You MUST learn to keep your upper body back in order to jump safely. It's easier to revamp your upper body position over little jumps.

Finally, if your horse (at only 7) is already strong and flat to his fences, and if he's bucking when you sit on him, then HE needs to come back a step, too, and re-learn how he should be jumping. When he can work quietly and softly over crossrails, you can start bringing the fences up.

You might feel that everyone is being really harsh, and that there's nothing wrong with your riding and your horse. The truth is, we're ALL still learning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif One of the coolest things about riding, IMO, is that you are (or should be) constantly working to be BETTER. Every time I get on a horse, I hope to be a slightly better rider when I get off. And I hope I have a slightly better horse when I get off, too. I thought I was hot stuff when I was 14. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Then I started to realize that winning blue ribbons didn't mean I was a good rider. Good riders are the ones that don't give up on a problem, but work away at it until it's fixed. Good riders are never "good enough" in their own minds; they always want to be BETTER. So while some people might look at me now and say I'm a good rider, I don't think I'm there yet. I am a SERIOUS rider, and every serious rider is a work in progress. I don't want to be good, I want to be BETTER.

What you have to do, Sunkist, is to work on making your horse and yourself better. You can do that if you put aside your feelings for a moment and honestly listen to what some very knowledgeable people have already told you. Follow their advice, and you WILL be better! If you think you're good enough now, and if you're winning blue ribbons now, imagine how amazing things would be if you and your horse were even BETTER! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Sara
*Charter member of the GM Fan Club*
*Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:05 PM
thanks guys!! no, those jumps are only 3'-3'3!! and some of yall are saying it may be because he is green and i need to work more on the other pony to improve myself?? believe it or not my other one is only 5!! yes..shes INCREDIBLE for her age!! so this one is actually a year older!! but thanks so much guys!! i appreciate it!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:28 PM
ok...i understand everything u guys are ALL talking about w/THROWING ME UP THEIR NECK but that isnt my jump position ALWAYS...i was just posting the good pics of the HORSES...not me!! here is one of me w/my normal eq...is that any better??

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:31 PM
HERE IS ANOTHER ONE!! i got my pony when she was 2 and did a solid 1 1/2 years of flat work until she was ready to start jumping...she is currently 5 and shows in 14 U Childrens Hunter!

Janet
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:32 PM
Even in your latest picture- If the horse "disappeared from under you", you would land on your face.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:34 PM
i guess that is just saying that i trust her enough that she wont "dissappear"...

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 07:47 PM
my leg and EVERYTHING is exactly how the persons diagram shows...how much better can you get??

Giddy-up
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:08 PM
I'll give you credit that you do look better in the schooling picture on your pony. A little closer to the diagram that was drawn (way cool by the way!)

I have ridden in all thing you are using on your jumper, but not all quite at once like that. I have to ask if you are riding in a 3 ring, then why are you riding in the draw reins too? Just wondering.

Britney
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lily:
Sunkist, your horses are very cute, and you look like a good rider. But there's always room for improvement, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think anyone's intention was to "dis" you, your horse, or your trainer, but instead to point out some shortcomings in your training program.

In my opinion, horses should never jump with draw reins. Your horse's draw reins are dangerously long, and run the risk of tangling in his legs over a jump.

It does seem like you are using too many gadgets. Regardless of what you've accomplished on your small horse, riding this greenie is obviously a whole different experience. You could use more work on the flat to improve your position and become more secure.

I think you would also benefit from a lesson or clinic with another trainer, to get another set of eyes watching you and your horse. And that's not to insult your trainer in the slightest; I think everyone can benefit from another opinion about their riding now and then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not purposely quoting you directly Lily, but yours was the closest one I found that mentioned it. Anyway, honestly I don't see the excessive amount of gadgets sunkist has on her pretty guy... I see one thing that could stand to go, which are the draw reins. Honestly hun, you probably really don't need them. On the flat and in between fences, try to ride him with lots of leg and little hand and I'm sure you find he's perfectly capable of carrying himself. Seriously, if you minus the draw reins, what here isn't an item of typical jumper attire? The 3 ring doesn't bother me because she's obviously not interefering with him. A figure 8 and running martingale??

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

Giddy-up
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:22 PM
Actually I guess my question should of been more do you know why you have all the gadgets on your horse & what they are there for? I agree the jumping in draw reins is dangerous, especially running them between the front legs. Yes, I agree with Britney that is all "typical jumper gear", but I have never seen so much at once I guess.

Romismoke
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:24 PM
On a final note, though alittle off topic, the mismatched blue and pink polos are fine for schooling but, obtrusive and distracing in the show ring. Maybe switch to a nice pair of Eskadron open-fronts or leather open-fronts.

--- ok, this has got to be the rudest thing ever! Give the girl a break. Obviously it is a schooling show ( she has on a polo and it is his first show ) so it is apparant that it is not some big show. Big deal. JUMPERS- it does not matter if she has eskadrons or mismatched polos.. Sometimes it is fun to let loose and be cute and match your polo with your horses polos. I just think that it is a bit much to say that the polos are obtrusive and distracting. Just a little snooty. My opinion thats all.

RumoursFollow
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:39 PM
If you take the schooling pic and draw a straight line from your knee to the ground, you will see that while not dramatically behind you, this is not a good leg position. It looks to me like in this picture, you got left behind and if there was another picture from a split second later, we would see you falling back too early on the horse. Take the saddle and horse out from underneath you and you would fall backwards onto your hiney.

Dont worry about what we think of you. If you and your trainer are happy with it and you do well at shows, then I guess it doesnt really matter what we think, right?

I would NEVER put a picture of me up here and ask for an equitation critique. Frankly, I know my eq is bad, and I dont need to have my bad points highlighted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You are much braver than I.

-------------------------------------------------------
Formerly known as RumoursFollow

After all, I did sell him almost a year
and a half ago... lol.
---------------------------------------------------------

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:42 PM
hey!! ok...to answer everyones ?'s...
i use the running martingale because he snappes standing ones in half, i use the pulley reins because he throws his head up and catches the bit and just runs, so this keeps his head tucked more and keeps him concentrated, and i use the 3ring because it is not harsh on his mouth *soft mouth* and it helps him to turn... and do whoever that RUDE person was I DO HAVE OPEN FRONT ESKRADON FRONT AND BACK BOOTS!!! haha, poo on them!! those are just my fun wraps! it was a schooling show for goodness sakes!! if she thought that was bad she should ahve seen the back..i had one zebra and one leopard wrap!!! hahaha...well thanks guys!! i hope that answers everything!! tell me if it does or doesnt ok?? thanks again!!

banana82
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:54 PM
i've been reading this and don't really get the comments of excessive gadgets. draw reins probably aren't a good idea for jumping, but a figure 8/running are pretty common. as far as the bit goes, i guess she knows what bit works with her horse and she does not really seem to be hanging on his mouth or interfering with him. i would say though that jumping with draw reins is not the safest idea.

otherwise i agree with most of the comments on the riders position. but they do look like a good pair, and i'm sure with some more work they will have fun and be quite competitive.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 08:58 PM
thanks! the draw reins keep his head in...he throws it A LOT!!! w/o it..yes, im always worried about him getting caught in it but they usu. dont dangle...in the 1st show pic i didnt know what i was doing, and he didnt either so yes they are kind of loopy! but i am so much more careful now!!

ClemsonGraduateRider
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:05 PM
This is like American Idol where I just want the poor kid to stop singing because I know no matter what she/he says Simon is going to rip them a new one anyway.

Hon - If you and your trainer have decided that this is what works best for you horse (gadget wise) then I have no problem with it, nope not even the draws. And if you say you have flatted this horse to death to work it and see if it still needs everything you are using, then I have no problem with that either. I'll tell you what I see: a cute horse with a rider that needs to do some work without stirrups and without hands o/f but that both of you have potential.

Niaouli
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:08 PM
Sunkist baby, you earn more friends with honey, than vinegar.

This board is frequented by many a famous people, judges, phenomenal riders, and us normal folk consisting of crazy students and nice ladies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But all said, I think you need to drop the gadgets. Get to the root of the problem.

My mare was like your gelding. Had every concievable piece of tack on her. I dropped it all off and worked on the basics.

Make SURE YOUR BASICS ARE SOLID. Hell. I can go jump a 4"6 oxer. Could I make it around the course? Not likely. I still need work on my communication.

It looks like you need work on communicating with your horse. Get him responsive, let him know when he's being good, and when he's being bad. When he throws his head, stick those long legs on him like crazy glue. Get him UNDER you. Rushing? Have him spend six weeks trotting jumps, halting, doing everything possible to keep him LISTENING to you.

If you need all that stuff after this, then fine.

But establish a base of trust, communication and maybe back off the advancing desires to go higher higher higher! You'll get what I had, and that's not cool http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Good luck. Email me if you think I'm crazy and wish clarification. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"We will not agree to war, unless you have spent the same amount of money first seeking peace" - anonymous

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:13 PM
haha!! my legs dont do much wrapping on a 17' horse!! yeah..i see what you guys mean... we are taking it pretty slow w/him... i had a gymnastics lesson on him today just trying to get him collected and under me and stuff and you will be happy to know i DID NOT use the pulley reins!! haha GO ME!!

Cruising
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:13 PM
Very well said *Bebe*!

* B E L E N *
My Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/lovingit09)
I know I was born and I know that I'll die.
The in between is mine.

AW
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:13 PM
To start with, what on earth are you asking him to do that he feels scared enough to snap a standing martingale in half? And just how tight do you have the martingale?

I don't actually have a lot of experience with running martingales - if I can't get the job done with flatwork the horse gets a different job - but my understanding is that if you have a correctly adjusted running martingale, your horse can't "catch the bit", thus making the draw reins redundant and dangerous.

It is your legs' job to keep your horse more "concentrated" and his "head tucked". (Hhhmmm - I hear Michel Matz talk about that all the time!) And a 3-ring is a harsh bit, especially when combined with a figure 8 so he can't get away from it. If he has a soft mouth, you ought to be able to ride him in a rubber snaffle, no figure 8, no other crap.

And why on earth did you take this darling horse and rush him from the track to jumper classes? Was he already schooled on the flat before you got him? Oh, guess not - otherwise you wouldn't need the crap. If you backtracked and did your homework, like has already been suggested, he would have time to learn how to jump better. If he was truly balanced, he would be able to rock back over his hocks and jump up and around the fence instead of rushing off the ground and jumping at them. That will lead to a bad wreck, especially when combined with your tendency to jump ahead.

If you were my student you'd be without your stirrups in the indoor arena for the rest of the winter with a plain snaffle, learning to ride from your leg & seat to your hand, and your horse would be jumping gymnastics on a loose rein so he could learn how to use himself without interference. He certainly looks athletic enough - he ought to get the opportunity to do more than crawl out from under a bad distance.

Niaouli
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:20 PM
Sunkist,

That's a great start! Gymnastics are definately the way to go.

A little bit more advice. You, but I know you're excited and showing is SO MUCH FUN, might want to back off from the ring for a little bit.

A rideable horse is a happy horse. Do gymnastics. Explore other bits. Try the Herm Sprenger KK bits, I LOFF those bits.

Don't rush it at all. Please. Especially with an OTTB. (I'm correct - that's what he is, right?) Since he's had the racing impact on him, a solid dressage/flatwork base and building the muscles will further his already percievable talent.

Take a good 6 months to develop his back end. Maybe bring in a dressage coach if your coach is cool with that? Trust me, jump him after he's rideable, and you've done above.

A whole different, happy horse.

"We will not agree to war, unless you have spent the same amount of money first seeking peace" - anonymous

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:25 PM
he was off the track before he turned 4 years old...so he has had 2 1/2 YEARS to do FLAT WORK, flat work, flat work!! but not w/me...the old people that had him didnt really know what they were doing *so i heard...i dont really know!!* so he was phsyco wwhen i got him! he just cant go w/chains or standing martingales... he throws his head up a lot and just snaps them in half! its not because hes scared...just because he is jake! i have the 3ring on the easiest hole and he likes it a lot, i have tried 14 other bits and this one worked best so its not like i just randomly picked it!! i only jump him once, MAYBE 2 TIMES a week..the rest of the days are flat work flat work flat work, with only the 3 ring bit and none of the other stuff! he only uses it when he is jumping...does that clear a few more things up? hope so...and i just saw this comment but his martingale is not that tight at all

V McCormick
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:25 PM
Maybe he is rushing and snapping martingales because he is scared or in pain? If I had a horse that seems to be as talented and forgiving as yours, then I would have a vet out ASAP trying to find out what is wrong!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:31 PM
he snaps them on teh flat, not jumping...he just randomly throws his head up a lot... and the running allows him to do this but the standing just breaks in half, he just keeps goign on like nothing happends lol so it doesnt bother him, he doesnt actually mean to break it

AW
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:31 PM
and still you bought him. Interesting choice.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:31 PM
I LOVE MY HORSE

Romismoke
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:32 PM
What is the deal with the three ring?!?! You make it sound like such an awful bit. Obviously it is not that bad, because it is used by many many people out there. When you have a super strong horse, who likes to pull down on you, you need leverage to keep the horse together, and MAYBE the horse likes to lock his jaw or open his mouth to avoid the bit, that would call for the figure 8. Not too harsh at all. Just a tough horse to ride. I think you people need to chill on this girl. Not all horses are push button!

AW
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:33 PM
Then I'd agree with V McCormick - sounds like he's in some kind of pain - that is not normal behavior. When were his teeth done last? How often does the saddle fitter check him?

Niaouli
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:35 PM
You just explained why he's the way he is, but why won't you address the flat work issue?

If he was trained by someone else, and didn't like it or and respond to their methods, why would you expect him to automatically accept your demands?

He sounds like a smart horse. Maybe he needs to learn to listen to you. No horse I have seen regularly snaps martingales and is left to continue doing so. If he kept stopping or started rearing, would you go along defending that?

It takes YEARS to form bonds and communication.

Quick fixes end with tears, disappointement and not happy horses or riders.

Trust me. I bought a GERMAN WWII tank of a mare. She needed to listen to me REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL bad. And stop yanking me, jumping from where she wanted etc.

Here's a pic of her.

Gucci Cowgirl
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:36 PM
a horse doesnt just randomly throw his head in the air with as much force that he snaps a leather strap in half...it is not normal, don't just accept it as "thats just how he is"

be less naiive - find out what the problem is and fix it, be proactive, not reactive.

You are trying to "quick fix" all your horses' problems instead of actually resolving them

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:39 PM
thanks romismoke!! i appreciate it... these people dont understand i dont think! my horse is not a 1mil dollar perfect push button pony like theirs... oh well )0:,' and BEBE yes i am listening to your advice and i have told you, i hack my horse every day of the week and we work on all of this stuff!! u make it sound like i am murdering my poor pony b/c i dont work w/him or something?? im confused, sorry

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:42 PM
aww your horse is cute BEBE!! really cute!! how old is it, what kind, ect? how old are you?? j/w...i am only 15 in feb so I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING...still learing! thanks for the advice though!!

Niaouli
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:48 PM
Thanks.

It took a year of solid "Wait, listen to me, I'm the rider, it's MY way. Oh, you have a point? Ok. I accept this, I don't accept that" with my horse.

Here's a picture that better illustrates my point. Email me at bebeonthebb@yahoo.com, 'cause I don't want to change the subject. And, gasp, I'm using a three ring, but that's what it took at certain times. I've done my homework. I hope you do yours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes my horse is slightly flat, but she's doing what I asked her. Can you notice subtle differences in the photos?

"We will not agree to war, unless you have spent the same amount of money first seeking peace" - anonymous

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:52 PM
there isnt a picture on that one?? my email is kabelgirl06@yahoo.com

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 21, 2003, 09:53 PM
ohh i see it!

Tosca
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:24 PM
This is so reminiscent of the George Morris threads, where people got upset at him for saying, in clinics and at the Final and such, that the level of horsemanship has decreased in young riders. This thread is just another example of many that indicate the growing number of young riders with poor horsemanship.

It makes me really sad and frustrated to read posts like Sunkist's. There are still many of good, educated young horspeople out there, but they seem to be getting few and far between.

Only somebody who had consumed two or three quarts of assorted home made wines at a sitting could have an inkling of the quaking nausea, the raging inferno within, the jangling nerves, the black despairing outlook. --James Herriot

Girl with a Pearl
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:28 PM
I must agree that the exsessive gadgets are a bit out of control. The fact that he snaps standing martingales and has to have draw reins on or he grabs the bit and runs is a huge red flag. I love his potential but I agree that he needs to go back to the basics. He needs to be doing alot of gymnastics. In the first picture his knees are quite nice so I know that he can get them up there but you two just need to work on that a bit. I really really urge you to take a step back to smaller jumps for both you and him. The later pictures you posted of yourself show alot of potential but in the picture of you with the pony over the schooling fence you are ducking pretty low and you are shoving your leg way out in front of you. I think some work without stirrups or even in jocky stirrups (hike them up 5-6 holes) would be really helpful. You should be able to jump your normal jump hieght in jockey stirrups well without loosing your balance. Its an old trick that GM used in a clinic I was in and it really helped me stop my ducking problem. He's a very cute horse but honestly everything said above was very correct. I'm not going to knock your bit. However loose the draw reins and the running martingale. He needs work without them. They should be there as an aid not to do your work for you. Also I would keep the figure 8 as it will help with the grabbing the bit. You should be able to school in those aids once a week but you should NEVER need to show in them. I really think you should take some of this advice others and myself have given before you have to greenies and yourself with alot of issues that will take years to fix.

~~Sarah~~
*The Purple Princess*

Romismoke
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:
This is so reminiscent of the George Morris threads, where people got upset at him for saying, in clinics and at the Final and such, that the level of horsemanship has decreased in young riders. This thread is just another example of many that indicate the growing number of young riders with poor horsemanship.

It makes me really sad and frustrated to read posts like Sunkist's. There are still many of good, educated young horspeople out there, but they seem to be getting few and far between.

_Only somebody who had consumed two or three quarts of assorted home made wines at a sitting could have an inkling of the quaking nausea, the raging inferno within, the jangling nerves, the black despairing outlook._ --James Herriot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is EXTREEMLY harsh. Just becuase she does things that you do not exactally agree with does not mean that she has poor horsemanship. She loves her horse, I am sure she takes wonderful care of the horse. That was a really mean thing to say. You should watch your mouth. I do not even know Sunkist and it offends me what you people say.

findeight
Jan. 21, 2003, 10:42 PM
Sunkist, I didn't diss you, your horse or your trainer and I sure as heck don't have a pricey horse, in fact I don't do the jumpers.

But my trainer has some pretty successful friends and I do see and watch them. In fact my horse's barn name is "the other Margie" and MGE always remembers and says hi when we share a warm up. I always look forward to seeing her.

Michelle Grubb has also been at my trainer's barn and is someone I love to watch teach and talk to afterwards. Tho she too knowsme by my horse's name better then my own.

What I am trying to get across to you is that these successful Olympic level riders seem to have a different approach then you are using. maybe it's better and maybe it's not but it is different from yours. Since you posted asking for opinions I shared mine based on my experience with these two ladies. Take what you want of it or leave it, up to you.

BUT I might ask you this.......you have a year on this horse, he is 6 in a career that will last at least another 10 years. Jumpers are notorious for figuring things out and many need stronger headgear over the years and as the fences,inside turns and prize money increase. Where will you go with this one? You are already pretty heavy.

As I said I can only go by what the people I know do and they don't have the same approach you do.

No dissing implied or otherwise but you posted and asked.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Girl with a Pearl
Jan. 21, 2003, 11:10 PM
I just want to ad that there is a condition and I really don't know much about it other than what I had experienced at the camp I taught at over the summer. One of the horses threw his head up and broke alot of martingales...5 to be exact. I took over the ride on him because he was too much for the kids...I did a bit of research on it and it's a symptom of a disorder that is caused by either loss of blood to the brain or braindamage. It's kinda like shaken baby syndrom for horses. I would really look into this as horses don't just snap martingales for no reason. It's ether bad training/riding or health.

~~Sarah~~
*The Purple Princess*

JB
Jan. 22, 2003, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i use the running martingale because he snappes standing ones in half, i use the pulley reins because he throws his head up and catches the bit and just runs, so this keeps his head tucked more and keeps him concentrated,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses often do these things because 1) teeth are bothering him (he's still young enough he could have growing-teeth issues), 2) saddle doesn't fit right, 3) they are VERY nervous and/or scared

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and i use the 3ring because it is not harsh on his mouth *soft mouth* and it helps him to turn... ,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he has a soft mouth, then you don't need a 3-ring to help turn him, imho. He' a big horse, who went in 6 months from doing 2' fences (courses?) to doing 3'6" courses. Sure, he's a big guy who is physically capable of clearing these fences easily, but IMNSHO that is a HUGE leap in fence height and I daresay he is rushing,grabbing the bit, jumping flat, and generally being hard to control because he just isn't mentally able to handle it all. I know you want to do jumpers with him, but I would seriously consider doing a year of hunter courses at the 2'6" - 3' height. He needs to learn that in a show ring he STILL must go around in a safe, controlled manner. I do argree though that both of you look like you have oodles of talent, and if you play your cards right, you both will go high and far. But if you fry his brain with high fast jumper stuff this early, he won't get there (and you might not either).

Dusty
Jan. 22, 2003, 05:52 AM
"and do whoever that RUDE person was..." "haha, poo on them!!"

Ya know, as much as I would love to respond to the original thread question, I just can't bring myself to give my adult opinion on a thread that uses "poo on them" in it. I hear stuff like that all day from my kids! Even though the original topic said "you tell me!!" I'm not gonna give the answer that the poster wants to hear so I'll just say nothing.

*Ride and let ride...*

Palisades
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:04 AM
I'm not going to comment on everything else, because I think everyone has done a pretty good job of discussing both sides of it. However, I do want to comment of the pictures of you and your pony.

In the schooling picture, you are bracing your leg and shooting it out in front of you. In fact, I'd venture a guess that the pony was too slow or tried to stop at that fence, and you really had to push forward. I know, because I have a picture of myself where I look IDENTICAL to you in that one, and mine was taken after my horse stopped at a fence and I had to bring him back and really WORK to get him over that fence the next time around. So I don't think you should be using that picture as an example of your correct leg position, because it's not.

As for the others, in every single other picture your leg has shot out behind you (especially the one of you on your pony showing). Again, something I tend to do. I second (third?) the idea that lots of no stirrup work, two point work on the flat, and gymnastics where you concentrate on letting your horse close up to you, would really help.

I'm not sure if ducking caused your leg to shoot backwards, or if you duck in response to feeling insecure with you leg, but fixing one should help the other.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:29 AM
thanks guys!!

SoNotaDQ
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:32 AM
Personally, and take it for the little my opinion is worth, I would go with alot of the other replies to go back to basics. To me, it seems the horse has been rushed and that is the reason you have the early takeoffs, running off, martingale breaking.

The person starting my horse over fences is doing poles on the ground *only* for now till she is so bored with it, she thinks nothing of it. Her reasoning, my mare gets hot when she thinks she is going over stuff. She likes it and gets excited. Taking is slow and quiet, waiting till they are totally ready, keeps the issues you have from starting

Now that you have the issues, it is time to rethink your approach. Go back to quiet soft riding at the walk and trot till he is well, quiet and soft! Do ground poles only till he is so bored and quiet you don't have to use any rein at all. Do teeny tiny fences till he is quiet and soft over those.

It is much harder to redo a horse once the habits and fears are established. We had a horse in the barn that reminds me of yours. He was like a giraffe on crack. Rushed the fences, had a tight standing on, a really harsh bit(I think it was an elavator gag, can't remember) and draw reins. The mother of the child(also 14) was approached and talked to about what was going on. A new trainer came in and rode the horse quietly in a snaffle with a loose standing martingale and the horse got much better. Never lost all his tenseness, but wasn't out of control in a frenzy anymore.

He is a lovely horse with lots of talent and you have a lot of years to perfect your riding talent. Definetely shorten your stirrups and try to stay back a little. If I still had my little gray mare, she could teach you not to lean forward approaching a fence. Get at all forward and you would fly over her shoulder at her dirty stop. She would NOT jump if you got ahead, but was great if you just waited!

One suggestion, try taking clinics outside your instructor. Sometimes a new perspective works well

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:44 AM
ok, i understand what you are saying but the standing/running is NOT a big deal..he DIDNT break it like 5 times or anyhting, he only did it ONCE when i had JUST bought him and we were still TRYING HIM OUT!! the next lesson we put the running on him and he does not throw his head and act up nearly as much...you guys have to understand that he hacked for a solid YEAR off of the track..and did 2' for 2 years!! he got sooo bored that this is why he is acting up more..so if we give him more of a challenge he is content and begins to figure things out

chaos theory
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:46 AM
I just wanted to give you another pic to take a look at. This is my horse Moon and I. When I asked for critiques on here everybody said that my leg and upper body position was near perfect. The only thing that has changed since this pic (taken a year ago) is my release. I have since learned the art of the automatic release.

My horse is a jumper like yours. He hates you to come down on his back and is a powerful guy (this is not the best pic I have of him but it shows my position well). He is a freight train also. BUT, we always school in a Myler D with lifters or a Dr. Bristol D. I have no problem with the equipment that you are using in the show pic (except for the draw reins- the 3-ring and the martingale alone would have the same effect) I use the exact same thing on my guy when we show (3-ring -this bit in the right hands is magic- or the Myler with lifters, grackle noseband, running martingale).

But, my horse is 10 years old, knows his job, and is comfortable and not overfaced. His freight train-ness and pulling have to do with exuberance and a sheer joy of galloping and jumping the big jumper courses. Your horse, on the other hand, looks scared, overfaced, and nervous. Even though the fences may not be a problem for him right now, one day in the ring you're going to come up on some pretty intimidating stuff, and that's when this training issue of rushing your horse is going to become very apparent and perhaps even dangerous.

You have a lovely horse and you look like a very gutsy rider who just might get to the big fences, just really take care of these issues. The first few years in the jumper ring are the most important. Build a solid foundation for your horse, and then he'll have the courage to go for the big ones.

Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Rachel
http://cheval-de-lune.net **updated with new design 1.12.02**

rileyt
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:52 AM
I think Tosca's thread was exactly on point. It's not "harsh"... its the truth. This is not aimed at Sunkist (who has obviously decided we know nothing). It's aimed at a bigger problem I see with juniors these days.

Some of you have some valid points,... 1) we DON'T know the "full story".. we're judging on pictures alone; 2) lots of jumper people use some or all of the gadgets we're griping about here; 3) some horses NEED some of this stuff.

I would like to address these things... and explain why I am SO bothered with what I see.

While 3 or 4 pictures can never tell the full story, they don't lie either. In EVERY picture I have seen, I think there are basic equitation problems as we've discussed. That, to me, says, while this girl may occasionally throw in a good fence, her HABIT 70-80% of the time, is to ride in a position that is ineffective.

Why do we care? It's not an equitation class, right? I'll tell you why I care. Because I view the "gadgets" as a last resort. Sometimes they are necessary. But only AFTER the rider has done EVERY THING possible to get the horse to do it in a snaffle. That means, the rider has worked tirelessly on her position, legs, seat, hands, to give the horse (ESPECIALLY a green horse) every opportunity to do it softly and nicely. I KNOW that that is not the case here. How do I know? Because the girl still exhibits several trademarks of ineffective riding. That's not such a crime. It does't make her any different from any other rider still in the learning process... until she opts for the quick fix of draw reins instead of 2 months of lunge lessons. There is another reason I KNOW this horse has not been given the chance he deserves... the timing. If you get a horse who is jumping 2 feet in teh summer, and have him jumping 3'6 by winter... that is an AGRESSIVE pace. It's not wrong in and of itself. Some horses can move that quickly. But, when you look at all the gear, you say, if they had spent 3 months working him in a snaffle, over cross rails (which we know they didn't do because he would't be doing 3'6" 3 months later)... he might not need all that stuff. In fact, if they put the horse in dressage training for 6 months, and re-started him slowly, I suspect they wouldn't need that stuff.

I am less bothered by MGE using a three ring, or a figure eight, or draw reins... because I KNOW MGE knows how to use her seat and legs already.

Finally... the trainer issue. Because of ALL of the above... I firmly believe that this TRAINER is doing Sunkist a great disservice. She's teaching her, that when your horse goes to fast, you just change his bit. If he throws his head, you tie it down. When your horse shows signs that he's stressed/frightened, don't worry about it... you can still show at 3'6" as long as he leaves the jumps up. This makes me positively SICK. If that's dissing your trainer, so be it. I'm appalled by what I see here. And, I DON'T think most of it is Sunkist's fault. As many people have pointed out, she's 14, immature, and doesn't know any better. But the trainer should.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 06:52 AM
thanks!! yeah...my horse LOVES jumping...he has fun at his job and just gets carried away w/himself!! hes really not a bad horse haha

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:01 AM
my horse has been doing any;thing between hacking and only 2' for 2 years guys!!! he did 3' when i bought him alll summer....and then we went back to 2'6 for 2 months to get him gathered and organized b/c he was getting carried away...we just NOW like THIS WEEK moved him back up to 3'3...he was NOT ready until now! i said (looking to do 3'6) on my title b/c that is the hopes we have for him to show in not next year but hte next...this coming up year i am doing low schooling! i think you guys kind of got the wrong impression...in that case does this lil bit make things sound better for my horse and i? we are taking it as slow as possible for him and trying to do what is best... he is very well taken care of and we do lots of gymnastics to keep him occupied and so he doesnt get bored, lots of hacking snakes, fig 8s, side passes, and all sorts of stuff...i said this a while ago but some of you may not have read it but i have tried 14 other bits on him already, and this one just seemed to work best...when he came he was in a gag and would not turn AT ALL...really heavy on his forhand, and we just thought this contraption would lift him up some so he woulndt nose dive up to the jumps. i DONT use the pulley contraption every single lesson...usu. every other... when i hack i only use the 3 ring and NOT the running or pulley system...

Janet
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:05 AM
Yep.
If Chaos Theory's horse disappeared from under her-
she would land ON HER FEET.

She is BALANCED OVER HER BASE OF SUPPORT.

That is what we should all be aiming for. Tha is the FIRST point in position over fences, and the pre-requisite for everything else.

rileyt
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:06 AM
Sunkist... Just so you know where I'm coming from, the fact that the horse's previous owners just flatted him and jumped him at 2 feet for 2 years doesn't help the situation. He may not have been flatted very well, or very effectively. And based upon his behavior, I suspect that he wasn't. If that's the case, I think its your duty as his new rider to spend another 2 years flatting him... if that's what it takes.

In other words... you have to evaluate what you have, and start from there. You cannot rely on the fact that someone else says they did something else with him... you know?

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Britney
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:22 AM
Why do we all care so badly anyway? Ya'll have turned this into a 6 page thread for virtually no reason. If sunkist and her horse are happy (which he looks to be) and she believes in her trainer and they are having fun, then why harp on the situation even further? Unfortunately, strangers she has never met before giving opinions over the internet are ultimately not going to have an effect on sunkist and what she does, and that's perfectly fine. Good luck, sunkist. Your boy is beautiful and reminds me alot of my guy. (Also a 17h, 7 yr. old OTTB jumper http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif) I'm sure you two will have a great career together! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

rileyt
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:27 AM
I don't think her horse looks happy.

And I am not so dillusional as to think Sunkist will actually take any of this advice.

But this is a public BB... and if I can get some other junior to think about what they're doing with their horse differently, then I think I've helped.

I think, this thread has grown into a discussion of bigger issues... beyond what Sunkist and her horse a doing. Thats the purpose of the BB. And I think the discussion is worthwhile.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jennasis
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:37 AM
1. NEVER ever jump in draw reins/pulley reins.

2. If you are riding him in a 3-ring with the rein set to the top (big) ring...then WHY can't you just use a snaffle?

3. In all but the one schooling picture your leg has slipped back tremendously, indicating a complete lack of support and foundation. In the one schooling picture, miraculously your leg has shot way forward???? Strange, but again indicating a lack of strength in the leg and seat.

A few things might help. Ride without stirrups on the flat and over some cross rails.

Get you coach to video tape you so that you can really see and analyze your problem. Video is a tremendous tool for learning.

Your horse looks like a nice guy...but the horse is only as good as the rider on their back. I could hop on Rox Dene and make her look like she didn;'t know which way is up. Maggie Jayne could get on my horse and make him look like a $100,000 hunter.

"All Hail President Kang!"

..."Don't look at me...I voted for Kodos..."

Silk
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:41 AM
Sunkist: I do not want to get you mad...but, that adorable palomino pony is saving your butt. If you rode my grey lg that way, you would learn not to jump ahead of him (or even to stay behind) VERY quickly. I understand that for many riders, this is the style - the overexagerated two-point, leaning way up the neck.

It may be an attempt on youth's emulating the professionals; often the good hunter riders are seen in "funny" positions. However, they are usually prone in such a way for a reason.

I think you are a very good, very athletic and gutsy rider, with a beautiful body for riding (jealous again). I also think some "classic" equitation lessons (perhaps with an equitation coach) would be helpful. There are still some classisists out there http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I were your trainer, I would have you do gymnastics, gymnastics, gymnastics (all fairly low - 2'6" - 2'9") while repeatedly asking you to SIT QUIET through the grid. You need to learn to NOT throw your body at your horse, as if you are trying to help him jump.

Good luck with your riding; you will be successful. And again, is that palomino for sale?

PS Is that palomino pony available for sale?

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 07:59 AM
she measured 14'2 1/4 w/o shoes and feet completely filed down and withers shaved...so we cant get her to measure pony )0:,' no!! shes not for sale..this little girl at my barn is split leasing her right now....shes only 5 years old, and when i got her she had never jumped before and knew NOTHING!! so do you think she turned out ok?? if so...then y would one of my horses be ok and everyone say that i am ruining the other one?? in that pic it was an in and out in childrens hunter, and she doesnt have a BIG horse stride so she left really long and i just kind of flew w/her i guess! haha and to Jennasis-if in fact the easiest hole on the 3 ring is just like a snaffle, y not keep using it if he likes it?? its JUST the same as a snaffle which everyone is complaining i need to use..hmmm

Courtknee202
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
"these people dont understand i dont think! my horse is not a 1mil dollar perfect push button pony like theirs... oh well )"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sunkist, please do not make a generalization. I know for a fact that the people on this board do not own "push button" ponies, but they do have wonderful horses and ponies that they put a lot of hard work and training into. And I seriously doubt any of them are push button. I for one don't even own a horse, so thank your lucky stars you at least have that. I don't have any comments, but I'll have to agree with the masses.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:03 AM
That’s kind of funny (going back to whoever said to video tape) the pic over the green oxar is from a digital video camera that was FILMED 2 days ago… I just put the whole video online and stopped it and made pics out of it… when I go home I will try to send u guys a whole moving course…like I said TRY to, ill have to figure out how first! Hha…would that be good?

Chanda
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:11 AM
Rileyt, you are my hero. I completely agree with everything you have said. It is such a shame that she is in denial, although I have been in her place before. Sometimes you just can't listen or understand that you are wrong but eventually she may change. I did.

The number one thing that I learned was that if your horse is having a problem, any problem- LOOK FOR PAIN FIRST! That is my new motto. Horses want to please, if they are doing something wrong (like flipping their head or carrying it too high) there is a reason for it. You MUST find out what that reason is. Start with the horse and do everything you can to find out if there is physical pain. Then look at yourself, is the saddle fitting perfectly, is my balance and use of my aids correct, am I tensing my body in a way that makes my horse uncomfortable???

I have probably one of the most difficult horses around and I have posted many pictures and ask many questions on this board and gotten some answers that I didn't really like. In the end you guys were all right though.

I dealt with all of his pain issues and it really made a difference. I couldn't tell he was in pain but after a lot of research I realized that he really did have some problems (teeth, saddle fit and a chiro helped).

I ended up having to go back to the very beginning with my horse (who is a jumper) and I have been taking dressage lessons from a really good lady. My very first lesson was at the halt and after 4 months we finally cantered in our first lesson just the other week (we are now back to just walking and trotting again though because he just isn't steady enough in the trot).

I ride my horse in a simple loose ring snaffle with no martinagle or any other gadget. This is not a horse that most people wouldn't even GET ON, much less ride in a loose ring all the time but with all of the TRAINING I can do it and it feels wonderful and he goes better than ever.

I started with a horse that was barely manageable but with manhandeling I could get over 3'6" jumps and now I have a soft flowing perfect angel of a horse that is completely relaxed and trusting. I don't even care that he is 9 years old and only walking and trotting because that walking and trotting is so wondeful compared to how he was going before. We will get back to the jumpers eventually but not until he is really ready. I can wait, I am patient and enjoying the process more than ever.

That is what I have learned from the people on this board. If you open your eyes, ears and heart everyone can learn these things too.

Bowed tendon: Both tendons looking good and back to normal!!

Keep Counting
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:11 AM
First off, I wasn't going to add to the advice that's already been given on this thread, as I think it's very good. But I just wanted to say a few things.

I think your horse is very cute, with lots of potential. You, as well, have a ton of potential to be a better rider than you already are.

Now, here's my little story. I jump ahead. Badly. Pretty much have the same upper body as you do. I've known that this is a problem, but haven't focused on it as much (worried more about leg position, horse stuff) because it didn't seem to me like it was that big of a problem. At least I was off their back, right? Wrong. When I was home over break I rode quite a few horses, and took a bunch of lessons. On my last lesson, the last day I was out there, I had a few jumps where I was actually *with* the horse! It was AMAZING. Totally different feel, better control on the landing, etc etc etc. When I didn't throw my upper body, I had a better feel of the horse, and could easily work with him after the fence (he had been scooting out from under me previously). Although it may not seem like that big of a deal, working on getting "with" the horse's motion in a jump makes a huge difference! (And if it matters to you, this horse was a 9 y/o OTTB, quite strong, and ridden in a three ring)
Take my opinions with a grain of salt, but I just wanted to let you know that getting a good base can make a huge difference.

-Liz

"Never go shopping for kiwis in a shoe store." -The Cynics Guide To Spiritual Happiness

Silk
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:16 AM
Sunkist: I think you did a fine job with your pony...you look like you weigh about 12 pounds (grin) so you are notgoing to really effect her (or your horse's) ability by jumping ahead a little. The problem comes when a horse LEARNS this is an easy way out. You might be fortunate that both of your horses like to jump. Its the reluctant jumpers that you would have difficulty with - they would learn how to "get rid of you" pretty quickly. Watch the jumper riders....they sit pretty far back on their approach. As for ruining your horse? I dont think that will happen. If I were your coach, I would be more concerned with you getting hurt if your horse stumbled, chipped or stopped.

A 17 hand horse should be able to clear 3'6" and not have your position (unless a drastic mistake is made by you) effect his jump. You might not get a classically beautiful bascule out of him without a stronger leg, but I dont think that is your goal right now. I think you will be very successful in the C/A jumpers where guts, forwrdness and fun is the order of the day!

Again, do not take this the wrong way, because for 14 I think you are very accomplished. However, if you were looking to move up to the jr/Ao's, you do need some stronger basics. I you try to jump for your horse at that level, you will end up knocking down fences for him by not being able to "ride" him across the wider oxers. The suggestion I can make is two hacks a week without stirrups -- I mean NO stirrups for the whol 40 minute ride. It will hurt, but it will also help.

Good Luck!!!!!!!! Take the draw reins off; they dont do much but get your horse too coiled and behind the bit.

JB
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
if so...then y would one of my horses be ok and everyone say that i am ruining the other one?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your two horses are totally different creatures. It takes a very very very talented horseman (not just a very very very talented rider) to be able to get horses this different to the same level of physical and mental ability. Your palo is VERY cute, and you seemed to ride her well, but she also seemed to be a fairly quiet, straight-forward, honest kinda girl. She knew nothing/very little when you started working with her. Your new guy is BIG, he's STRONG, he had a VERY different career before you got him. You are working on training a horse who had a training regime that couldn't be more different from his job now. The same type of ride just does not work on horses that different. The same RIDER can work, but the ride must be different. You are 14, doing schooling shows. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I daresay you don't have the experience or the foundation to give this big strong athletic guy the ride HE needs at THIS point in his or your career. I am not saying get rid of him, not at all. I'm saying that it IS possible to have your great palo mare, have great rides on her, and have this big gelding and have trouble with him. Night and day. It is possible through hard, long work, endless repetitions of grids and gymnastics and poles and flatwork and "boring" hunter shows that you will be able to give him the ride he needs and him to learn it's not all about mach-1. Not what you want to hear, I know, but I just had to say it because of all the potential I see in you two.

silly*mare!
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
my leg and EVERYTHING is exactly how the persons diagram shows...how much better can you get??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It SOUNDS pretty snotty of you to say that, especially since it is not exactly so anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>thanks romismoke!! i appreciate it... these people dont understand i dont think! my horse is not a 1mil dollar perfect push button pony like theirs... oh well )0:,' and BEBE yes i am listening to your advice and i have told you, i hack my horse every day of the week and we work on all of this stuff!! ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You responded to Romisoke saying there was nothing wrong with a 3 ring bit. You don't seem to even acknowledge when someone says it's a bad choice. You won't even LISTEN to others opinions on the bit? This is a sign of poor horsemanship someone was talking about earlier.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and i use the 3ring because it is not harsh on his mouth *soft mouth* and it helps him to turn...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If his mouth was soft, why use a 3 ring on the first hole instead of a snaffle? This question has been asked several times and you have yet to answer it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>you guys have to understand that he hacked for a solid YEAR off of the track..and did 2' for 2 years!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm...earlier you said that his previous owners did flatwork, flatwork, flatwork. You DO know that hacking and flatwork is different, right? I fear that might be the communication barrier that everyone is getting caught on.

I believe if he decides to, bless his heart, lose confidence, you are gonna go flying face first into a jump. I hope for your sake it never happens, not even once.

[This message was edited by silly*mare! on Jan. 22, 2003 at 11:30 AM.]

Jennasis
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:21 AM
The video is not for us to view. I meant that YOU should watch the video and critique yourself. It makes it very easy to spot your own flaws and weak spots when viewing yourself. WE don't need to see it...unless you really want us to watch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't think anyone suggested that you were "ruining" the horse.

The palomino pony...you said his withers were shaved. Did you mean the hair or the bone?

"All Hail President Kang!"

..."Don't look at me...I voted for Kodos..."

rileyt
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:25 AM
Thanks Chanda... and if I might add, I think your post points out a very common misconception that I think is part of the problem here. You mentioned how your horse was doing 3'6", but you were muscling him around. Its only now, after all the training, that you realize how unhappy he was then.

Some people believe, that because a horse jumps (instead of stopping or running out), that he MUST be having fun, and he must not be being evasive. It's just plain wrong! Running at fences, throwing heads, etc... are all signals of unhappiness and evasion.

It is SOOO common with TBs, and especially OTTBs. Many of them deal with pain/uncertainty/mistrust by RUNNING. It is the flight instinct. Look at, sadly, some great race horses who have broken down on the track, but kept running. Ruffian for one. Don't delude yourself into thinking that he must be OK, because he's doing it. It's a terrible mistake to make with any horse, but especially a TB. They will run and jump through pain and unhappiness.. often because they don't know what else to do.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Catalina
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jennasis:
The palomino pony...you said his withers were shaved. Did you mean the hair or the bone?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering the same thing. Please tell me it wasn't the bone.

crzylegs
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:29 AM
Sunkist, The truth hurts, if you were not ready to handle what everyone might say about you why did you post your pictures? I'm sorry you did not hear what you wanted to but, I think you need to take all of this with a grain of salt and not as personnal attacks on you. These folks may not know you but they do know their stuff. You might want to listen instead of fighting it.

You are only 14 yes it goes fast but you have time do not be afraid to slow down. In the end it will only benefit the both of you!

Best of luck to the both of you!

Janet
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"these people dont understand i dont think! my horse is not a 1mil dollar perfect push button pony like theirs... oh well )" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This always makes me laugh.

Many years ago, when I was a teenager, a friend of mine (Patty Peckham) bought a horse for $100. "Aged". Probably morgan x something. 14h3", but 6 inches of theat was withers. He only had 2 gaits. A jig, and a flat out gallop. We thought she was crazy to buy him. But she just kept working on him. No "trainer" per se, just Pony Club lessons.

A couple of years later, I stood on the rail as she rode in an equitation class. One of the tests was a canter figure 8 with a change of lead through the walk.

They did it perfectly (and I think she won the class). Soemone who didn't know us, standing next to me on the rail said: "I could do that too, if I had a PUSH BUTTON horse like that."

Moral of the story- you can MAKE the buttons, you don't have to buy them.

And BTW, she is now a pro with her own show barn.

silly*mare!
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:34 AM
Just an observation: I have found that people who respond very badly to criticism usually think they are perfect and simply want people to agree. It has something to do with only hearing what they want to...

lmlacross
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:38 AM
Given the original poster's current attitude ("advice be DAMNED" is how I hear her), why are we still directing responses TO her? I see the benefit of posting on this topic in general, but any issues that have been directly addressed with regard to this poster/her riding/her horsemanship have been unilaterally rebuffed, so why waste our breath? Are we all trying to meet our monthly quota of disregarded advice-frustration???

She admits she's fifteen, and "doesn't know everything there is to know", but yet she dismisses comments, constructive criticisms and concerns as if she does. There seems to be an answer for everything, doesn't there? So why do we keep offering advice? DO we think Sunkist will have an epiphany and realize that there are, in fact, other people on this board who have "made" their OWN horses, and that we don't all have 100k perfect ponies? Let's not hold our breath.

I'm all for the posts that address these problems for the benefit of the group-- directed to others who might be having similar problems and are willing to try different approaches/ideas to improve. Stop feeding this poster (who has grown remarkably troll-like since her initial request for feedback), and let's get this moving in a direction where problems are addressed with a wider lens. Let's talk about the beenfits/disadvantages of schooling in a three ring. Let's chat about the effectiveness of running and standing martingale. Let's discuss a general regime for taking an OTTB and turning him into a children's jumper. Hey, let's fume about draw reains some more. Or, if we're sick of these topics, we COULD just let them die a natural death. Above all, let's take this poster out of our replies, as obviously, she has nothing more to learn from us.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

Chanda
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:40 AM
Yes Riley exactly. My horse rushed before and after the jumps. I was constantly trying to figure out want to do to stop it, training-wise. Wrong. He was doing it because he was uncomfortable and didn't understand. It wasn't that noticeable then but it sure is now. And, he was even a WB who don't tend to rush, but he did.

As for that comment about not having an expensive horse??? That is the complete opposite of how you should be looking at it. The LESS expensive the horse the MORE ~training~(stress the word training here) it needs. How cheap a horse is has nothing to do with what kind of strong bit it needs. My boy was middle to low range $ but he still needs a million times more training than an expensive made horse, what he does not need is a stronger bit and draw reins because of his price. That is just bizzare.

Bowed tendon: Both tendons looking good and back to normal!!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:40 AM
ok!! yeah, lots of people told me to get his teeth checked 2 months ago and i did and he is LOTS better now! he was vet checked and everything and he isnt in pain at all... my saddle is most of my eq prob cus its 2 inches too small! lol...we are just still working on getting our act together!! i ALWAYS ride other peoples horses...ith elps me soo much!! my pony *sunkist* had an abcess for 2 months (before i got jake) and i rode other horses almost every single day...this improved me a lot! believe it or not, my eq actually used to be WORSE!! haha

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:42 AM
chanda- thats ex. what im saying!! my horse didnt come made and he needs LOTS OF WORK!!

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

Chanda
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:43 AM
I also wanted to add (and then I am done) that the reason so many of us contiue to post on this thread and try to help is that many other people besides the original poster may read this and learn something. (someone else already pointed this out but I don't remember who, sorry)

My dressage trainer always says that if she (or even through me) can help enlighten just one person, it is worth the effort.

Bowed tendon: Both tendons looking good and back to normal!!

lmlacross
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:47 AM
Chanda--

I agree with what you're saying. I was hoping just that-- that posts here could start to address BBers en masse, and not the original poster who clearly has no use for our feedback.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:49 AM
dont say taht i have no use for your feedback bc i have read every single thing said i AM using some of this advice!! i am taking a lot of the reasonable comments out and using them already...last night i had a gymnastics lesson that someone suggested! i am now more aware that i shouldnt lay on his neck..and many other things!! dont just say that i dont care, because i do

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

lmlacross
Jan. 22, 2003, 08:54 AM
My apologies, then. I didn't gather that you were using any of the advice you've been given. I made that assumption based upon the manner in which you received those suggestions here.

I'm glad to hear that you've been using some of the suggestions that have come your way...maybe, then, this whole post has been worthwhile after all. Incidentally, my horse is an OTTB too.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

Jennasis
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:00 AM
well...did you shave the hair off of his withers, or was the wither bone surgically shaved?

Also...shouldn't you be in school right now?

"All Hail President Kang!"

..."Don't look at me...I voted for Kodos..."

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:01 AM
awesome!! yeah...i seriously have been using some of these suggestions!! i put a pic on here of when i first bought him and we were trying him out...has he improved since then do you guys think??

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:03 AM
we shaved the hair off of her withers, we didnt surgically shave her withers!! and yes, i am in school... we have two 50 minute free periods and a 50 minute lunch in a row!

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

Jennasis
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:05 AM
Oh good! I was so worried I was about to read another horror story about the wither bone being shaved to make height.

I always forget school's have computer/internet access now. I guess I've turned into a "remember when" old fart! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"All Hail President Kang!"

..."Don't look at me...I voted for Kodos..."

Girl with a Pearl
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:06 AM
No no, you are using what you feel to be resonable. But I think that general conscensous here is that you need to NOT be jumping over 3' period. Who's idea was it to put the horse in the jumpers? This is for Riley (to prove that some junior arent as bad as you may think, cause I am only a couple years past junior -hood)...I am from the school of thought that believes horses should be moved up through the ranks as well as riders. What is it with people today??? You start in the hunters then the eqs and move to the jumpers....each one building upon qualities the previous held. If you wanted to move him up shame on your trainer for letting you and if your trainer was the one who put him in the jumpers then shame on her for doing so. He needs LOTS and LOTS of work in the 2'6" hunters and I suggest that you work on some of it as well as rushing into the jumpers is obviously damaging you as well. The hunters build control and finesse...the Eqs build on that my demanding control o f ones horse and themselves...the Jumpers demand all of this only at a higher level with more questions being asked of you. Your Jumper courses should be JUST like a Maclay, USET, or USAE medal and I see none of those in the pictures you gave us. I think that we all know you aren't going to go back and do the hunters at 2'6" so I guess I'm not really addressing you but sharing my opinion with the rest of the board so that they may get a good idea of what to do if they ever have a situation like this. I really suggest that you get some humility before you ask for a critique again. People really don't like kids who make excuses for everything...I know because I was one about 7 years ago....and I learned alot for getting over myself and not making excuses for every little thing. You are doing yourself and your horse a disservice and I'm pretty glad that I'm not a junior anymore because I wouldn't want to be kumped into your category.

PS~ He doesn't look any better!

~~Sarah~~
*The Purple Princess*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:10 AM
my horse moves like a truck...there is NO WAY he would get anywhere in hunters... this year i am going to show him in MAYBE some random childrens hunters classes...and LOW SCHOOLING JUMPERS... anything lower and he is extremely bored... we try to do lots of twists and turns to keep it intersting, any other ideas how to keep him from getting bored w/o raising the fenecs?? jennasis- HAHA!! im sure you arent old!! no, i would NEVER surgically shave her withers! poor pony!

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:13 AM
purple princess- you arent trying to help me out here, you are just telling me everything that is wrong w/my horse! its obvious that YES he is somewhat better... when i got him he literally cantered over the jumps... it was pitiful!! here is another pic like that.. he left 2 strides out for everything and would take apx. 2 strides out every single line... now i am working on getting him to the base of the jump and he is doing much better w/this..he isnt AS flat as a board anymore, wouldnt you agree??

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

7/8
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:14 AM
You might get more respoect if you used your 'big girl' voice.

crzylegs
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:17 AM
Who cares if your horse moves like a truck, it's the practice you should be going for not the ribbions. I do not think there is any written rule that say "if your horse does not have a daisey cutter movement you can't show" Alot of people use the hunters to school.

countingstrides
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> *!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!* <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are 14, right???? I guess this explains it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:18 AM
my BIG GIRL voice?? excuse me?? im not looking for lots of respect..i just want help! not ragging on about the same thing over and over, i understand that most of yall think i should change my jump position completely and my horse needs to lose all of its gear...

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

rileyt
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:21 AM
PP- If I sounded like one of those adult ogres who thinks all juniors are a bunch of snotty kids... my apologies. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I know better.

Really, the problem is almost as prevalent with adults. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:22 AM
people would think i am absolutely rediculous if i shows him in hunters! seriously, ill go home and try to put my video on the web to show you guys ok??

*!*If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life...let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives*!*

7/8
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
my BIG GIRL voice?? excuse me?? im not looking for lots of respect..i just want help! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See previous post. Didn't OJ seek help in finding the killers? Yep, we all respect him.

crzylegs
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:26 AM
Okay, I think people would realize you are just practicing if you did the hunters. Jumpers is what you want to do so why does it matter if people think you are ridiculous in the hunters?

V McCormick
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:26 AM
What does he do that tells you he is bored?

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:26 AM
who is OJ?? and what killers did he try to find?

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Girl with a Pearl
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:27 AM
Now Sunkist you're right I'm not trying to help you out because you aren't accepting it. Your horse is a textbook case and everyone has given advice. You assume that just because you tried something before and it didn't work that it was because it was wrong. No it's probably because you didn't do it right. Just becuse you rode in the 14 other bits doens't mean that they wouldn't be better for you...you may not have used them right. I told you what you needed to do and you didn't like what i told you...that's not my problem, it's your horses though. You need to go back to the hunters with him or ride in the jumpers like a hunter class. You bought a green horse and that is your own fault. Now you need to do right by him. Who cares if you won't do well in the hunters....you need to be in them anyway. NOT to win but to get your horse FIXED. You aren't understanding my reasoning for moving him back to the hunters...you're saying no because he pulls like a freight train, hangs his knees, doesn't use his head and neck etc. so he wouldn't do well there. THATS THE WHOLE POINT! Move back and teach him NOT to pull like a train...not with draw reins and bits and martingales but with your good riding skills which by the way you'll need to develop first by riding without stirrups, with jockey stirrups, without reins and even bareback...you need to move back and so does your horse. I am helping you if you would just listen....a JUMPER is a HUNTER course that demands more out of you. Thats how it was designed and intended to work and going against this system designed by the pros will only result in a half broke poor jumper. So goodluck but it isn't my fault that what I told you to help and fix this huge issue isn't what you wanted to hear.

~~Sarah~~
*The Purple Princess*

Atypical
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:28 AM
Your horse doesn't ahve to be an incredibly stellar mover to do well in the hunters, at least, not at smaller shows. Heck, I rode a 16.3 h TB that I jokingly call my conformation hunter from hell in the AA hunters at an A show, and we placed third. Albeit it, he jumps nicely, but with a somewhat jug head and misproportioned body, doesn't exactly LOOK like a hunter. The point is that even if your horse isn't a ten mover, you can still do well over fences if you nail your distances, keep a consistent pace and get your leads, which is what you should be aiming for at this point anyway.

Silk
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:29 AM
Well said, Purple Princess! You are very articulate and knowledgable for a young adult.

BB
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> he left 2 strides out for everything and would take apx. 2 strides out every single line <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO, I don't think that raising the jumps is the solution to this problem. While your horse may be better suited for the jumpers, he still needs to learn to collect and lengthen and wait for the jumps on a hunter-type course before he can safely move on to the jumpers.

jetsmom
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:31 AM
Hey guys, give the kid a break. Don't any of you remember what it was like when you were 14 yrs old, and thought your trainer was God? Even though what many of you were saying might be true, there is a more tactful way to put things. If you went to a dinner party, and the hostess asked how you meal was, would you say, "the steak was tough, the green beans mushy, and the potato dry. Your mother obviously never taught you how to cook. You need to go to cooking school." ? No, you wouldn't. How about a little tact and manners? From reading the initial post, I got the impression of a kid that loves her horse, and was looking at showing everyone how cute he is, and get some pointers. Why couldn't someone have replied, "your horse is very cute, and you look like a gutsy rider. Some no stirrups work would help stabilize your base of support, and help you keep your upper body back." This thread's replies reminded me of a pack of wolves going after a lamb. If you are trying to educate someone, you don't do it by alienating them. Try to remember what 14 yr olds are like. At that age, (and even to many adults), criticism is hard to handle even when solicited. The truth is OK...the BLUNT truth is not.

lmlacross
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
people would think I am absolutely ridiculous if I were to show him in hunters! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sunkist, who cares what people think? It's about putting on mileage, getting him to settle. Use smaller shows for this...schooling, maybe C-rated--that's the purpose of smaller shows...to tinker and improve before shelling out the big bucks for the A-shows.

I think you're quite athletic and look lovely on a horse. Why not get him going down the lines easily in unrated hunter classes (where pinning is not the objective), then move him up to the Novice Child/Adult Jumpers when he's a little more soft and responsive (recognizing that he's may never go like a hunter). You'll have had all that time to tune up your eq, so when the two of you enter the ring, people watching will really go "Wow-- that girl has really put in her time...what a class act." or, the ultimate compliment "Well I could ride that pushbutton jumper!"

(-: LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:31 AM
v mccormick- he canters over them w/o even jumping, bucks and such to make it fun for himself (which i would too if i was 17 hands and jumping that little!)... he acts goofy and doesnt pay attention b/c he knows he could jump all of those w/his eyes closed and legs tied together...you know???? if we dont give him a challenge he takes advantage and just acts goofy and so we have to keep him busy and under control

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

JAGold
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
im not looking for lots of respect..i just want help! not ragging on about the same thing over and over, i understand that most of yall think i should change my jump position completely and my horse needs to lose all of its gear...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sunkist, I'm not sure what you are looking for. You posted pictures and asked for people's oppinions. That's what you got. If you don't like what you've heard, there is nothing here that can make you listen or change your riding -- but it's also not worthwhile to try to change people's minds. If all you wanted was help, think about what people suggested instead of telling them why they are wrong and you are right! People are "ragging on about the same thing" because the faults that have been mentioned are serious and obvious from the pictures you chose to post for critique. There isn't any sense waiting for or insisting that someone tell you exactly what you want to hear; you seem pretty capable of telling yourself those things. --Jess

crzylegs
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:32 AM
Atypical- exactly. Thank you!

"The point is that even if your horse isn't a ten mover, you can still do well over fences if you nail your distances, keep a consistent pace and get your leads, which is what you should be aiming for at this point anyway."

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:36 AM
jetsmom-THANK YOU!! that is my exact point... thats all i wanted!! (0:,' thanks so much! i hope people read what you said....

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

deltawave
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:44 AM
Sunkist, who says you have to SHOW your horse at all? Can't he school the jumps at home? Can't he learn to be rate-able, as most horses learn, by doing FLATWORK? Have you ever worked with a dressage trainer? Mine are legitimate questions, really--I haven't anything against YOU personally. These are some things I notice when I look at your photos: you jump ahead and weight the horse's shoulders. You use a lot of gear that a well-schooled horse doesn't need. Notice I cast no aspersions on YOU or your TRAINER. Here is the advice: get your young horse established SOLIDLY before you put him in jumper shows. SOLID flatwork, consistent, obedient response to your aids, and quiet, consistent, "broke" behavior over jumps at home. Try a dressage lesson or two--there's something to be learned in all disciplines, and your own position might be helped. I know you posted some lovely pictures of your equitation on your lovely pony, but the majority of pictures on your horse show you dangerously "loose". Most people DO ride differently from horse to horse--the more "challenging" rides are harder to look (and BE) effective on.

Above all, you want to be safe and effective, riding an exceptionally well-schooled horse who has the balance, mileage, manners and adjustibility to handle competition, right? What would you tell a student of YOURS who was having these issues?

What people are striving to do here is give you the advice you claim to be seeking. Yes, it is ADVICE. Not ragging or lecturing or "dissing". If it comes across as harsh, it is still in many cases valid. If you want to be taken seriously (or even if you don't, but I've yet to meet a person who TRULY does not care about the opinions of others...why else would you post here?) then you have to endeavor to be open-minded and gracious in accepting criticism. It is a VERY hard lesson to learn, and I can't say for myself that I was very good at it at 14. Good luck, keep your ears and mind open, and never stop learning!

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

second chance
Jan. 22, 2003, 09:48 AM
This is getting me very frusturated anybody else?

You've posted a thread on a public bb. Yes, you are going to get negative and positive feedback. I know I would be happy to read all the posts, the good and the bad.

Back to the martingales. If he snapped it, are you hitting him in the mouth with your hands?! My horse will throw her head if I have a to firm of a contact with her, she will throw her head if I don't have my hands where they are supposed to be.

This is my personal opinion. I think you could really benefit in an old fashion dressage lesson. Yes dressage lessons. This will help you achieve proper balance, posture and learning how to ride appropriately. Afterall, you're 14, you should take advice openly, it is constructive criticism, something of which you do not take well.

The most powerful bit I've ridden in is an eggbut gag. Which is similar to the action of your bit. It works by poll pressure. Just stop and think for a minute. If you have alot of weight on your head and your head is tied to your chest, can you look up? Your horse is going artificially round. He's being made to do it.

You can get the same results with a full cheek,loose ring (whether it be a french training snaffle or just a plain ol' loose ring). Also, you should ride from your leg and seat and the last thing you should ride with is your hand.

We are obviously worried about what is going to happen with such a good looking yet promising horse. A green horse with a rider who is in the wrong hands or is being taught by the wrong person will act like a basket case. He looks like he's a "balls to the wall and back again" horse with all the garbage you have on him. Drop back to a simple cavesson, full cheek and let him be a young horse.

My horse (whom I got when she was 2 1/2) started jumping 18" cross rails when she was 3. We only did them probably once a month. Now, she is turning 5 and we have yet to jump a full course of 2ft 9" fences. She is going in a full cheek and sometimes a standing martingale. Nothing more. She goes naked for shows (no martingale). She is a quick horse, who is not the least bit easy to ride.

I think it's a matter of time that you will 'click' with your horse without the gadgets and unnecessary garbage you have on him.

(Not meant to be a personal attack, just a rather wound up person rambeling on and venting pretty much).

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
"Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order." John Adams (1735-1826)

[This message was edited by second chance on Jan. 22, 2003 at 01:32 PM.]

fleur
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:00 AM
Sunkist, as far as hunters vs. jumpers go, I think you would benefit by focusing your training at the moment on getting around a course like a hunter or an eq rider, rather than like a jumper. Regardless of what you plan on showing him in, you want to have a solid, strong (by which I mean forward and covering ground, not pulling), quiet ride, like a hunter, before you even start to think about jumper maneuvers like tight turns and finding a longer spot. It doesn't matter what his movement is like, you want him to be able to fit an even five strides in a line if that's what the line is measured for.

One more thing I would suggest is check out the exercise diagram I made http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOL I love my diagrams! Do this exercise, which involves long stretches of trot and canter between the jumps,.Like, take the diagonal, then canter ALL the way around and take the other diagonal in the same direction... If you understand what I mean.

On the diagram, you should start with the red line, jump #1, then go ALL the way around on the green line, and jump #2, then repeat. This exercise teaches you to wait for the jumps because you have a LONG time in between them! Really think about waiting until you feel your horse start to jump, then just move your hands up and lift your butt slightly out of the saddle, but don't exactly go into a halfseat. You should feel his upward motion lifting you up and forward. Good luck!

*EMMA*

lmlacross
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:00 AM
I support those who have made constructive comments regarding horsemanship. Unless mismatched polowraps imply poor horsemanship, I don't really think it's a point worth discussing. Each of us has our own style and color preferences, and I hardly think that this girl's choice to use two different color polowraps has anything to do with her riding skill and/or problems.

Let's try and remember what the real issue is here without becoming condescending and trivial.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

starman
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:02 AM
Sunkist,

To keep things more intersting w/o raising the jumps you can work on jumping fences at differ angles, work on bending lines (start w/ bigger lines, work your way down to tighter ones). Just keep it fun for him and you!! Isnt that what riding is suppose to be FUN?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you want to use mismatched polos GO AHEAD!!!! Once again you were just trying to have, whats the word....FUN!!!!Just switch to eventing, we dont care what your polos look like, we like colors!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Loyal servant of Queen Joker Britches. Best friend of Haidas Poisen. Confused partner in crime with Skys the Limit.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:03 AM
Hey everybody who posts here-
This is a friend from her barn. Ok, I've got a couple things to say here...
First of all- I do agree with some of the criticisms and all the praise!! Yes, she could definetly benefit from no stirrup work, a lot of standing trot (big fan of that). But! knowing Mr. Jake that might not be a good idea right away. Since her leg is not as strong as it should be, she would probably all over the place and Jake would not be happy! So, I am suggesting that she does it on a quieter, more experienced horse, her 14.3 hand pony would be great. The pony is 5 years old is a SAINT!! I love that pony. Another thing the pair would benefit from is the rider riding a more seasoned jumper for some lessons. I know a few people who have bought green jumpers and ridden their trainers jumpers and the improvement is incredible! This is true for anybody, while I agree that you can learn *a lot* from a green horse (jumper or not) you can a learn chapters of things from made horses too! on another tangent, I don't agree with using unnecessary equipment. Not a big fan of draw reins over fences either. But, remember every horse is an individual. And this guys is a perfect example of this! I have seen this horse go many times, and not once have I seen him act scared! He is very bold at the fences and is not particularly spooky. I don't believe he is in any pain, but probably a chiropractic work up is not a bad idea. I don't know what to say about the bit and figure 8, except that he seems to go fine in them. I know we have seemed to stop with the trainer comments, but I will say that the trainer has 25+ years of experiece in training and a GIFT with the green horses! It just takes time... The rider needs no stirrups work and such, also for the horse and rider continuing with the gymnastics will be very beneficial. Also riding small courses/gymnastics with one hand behind her back could help her use her leg more effectively through turns and not be so dependent on her hands. As for Sunkist's retaliation against the critism on her horse, her trainer, and herself, yes, the comments were definately requested, but lets try to be positive. You must be an advocate for your horse and stand up for him, he can't do it himself. I know the feeling...I welcome all comments , suggestions, and on anything mentioned...Just remember having a green horse, they are all different and sometimes don't fit in to a rider's plan exactly the way that they are wanted to.

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Britney
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jetsmom:
Hey guys, give the kid a break. Don't any of you remember what it was like when you were 14 yrs old, and thought your trainer was God? Even though what many of you were saying might be true, there is a more tactful way to put things. If you went to a dinner party, and the hostess asked how you meal was, would you say, "the steak was tough, the green beans mushy, and the potato dry. Your mother obviously never taught you how to cook. You need to go to cooking school." ? No, you wouldn't. How about a little tact and manners? From reading the initial post, I got the impression of a kid that loves her horse, and was looking at showing everyone how cute he is, and get some pointers. Why couldn't someone have replied, "your horse is very cute, and you look like a gutsy rider. Some no stirrups work would help stabilize your base of support, and help you keep your upper body back." This thread's replies reminded me of a pack of wolves going after a lamb. If you are trying to educate someone, you don't do it by alienating them. Try to remember what 14 yr olds are like. At that age, (and even to many adults), criticism is hard to handle even when solicited. The truth is OK...the BLUNT truth is not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally! You couldn't be more right jetsmom! If only every post where someone just wanted to show off their horse and express how they loved them didn't turn into a feeding frenzy on this BB, I think it'd be great! Apparently, that's not the case. I know we have a lot of very experienced and knowledgable riders, judges, trainers, etc. on here, but honestly, I get the "high and mighty" vibe from alot of these replies. I don't even particularly think this is about being 14, I remember why I don't post pictures for critique or even just to show my boy off, because I'd feel just as alienated as sunkist does. And the worst part is I know I'm happy, my horse is happy and my trainer is amazing. These replies are ever prevalent, and will continue to be unfortunately. Some people just look way too deep into a situation and always have to judge.

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:07 AM
second chance- it was his first schooling show, he doesnt care what he looks like! as long as it is functional and safe, it doesnt matter...if you didn't like his front legs you should have seen his back ones w/one zebra and one leopard wrap!! and YES he has eskradon open front FRONT and BACK boots...

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

fleur
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:08 AM
One more suggestion -- have someone lunge you while you ride Sunkist (the pony). Work without stirrups, work without reins. One great thing for halfseat is doing it without reins, because you quickly learn not to lean on the horse's neck! Try it while someone is lunging you -- just drop/tie your reins once you are in halfseat and put your arms out to the sides, or out in front of you. If you lose your balance, then you know you are not doing the halfseat correctly to begin with!

*EMMA*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:12 AM
thanks britney! i agree!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:20 AM
what do you guys think about what my friend said??

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

DANIELLEKIKS
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:22 AM
Hey yall i am a friend from school and i know Sunkistbaby i knwo she was ver well brought up adn if u posted your horse on this site she would not criticize you as rudly as some of u criticize her I also know her horse Jake and he is a very mature horse.. i have gotten the privlege to ride him and he is a very outstanding horse yes i agree Sunkist could use a few minor things to make her andthe horse flow better but i think sunkist is right on track she knows what she is doing and looks great. If u really think being so harsh on her and making her feel as if she does not knwo what she is doing, because she does very well know what she is doing, you will not be very much help you can put soem of your remarks in nicer terms to get through to this young lady. She is trying very hard and being around her at school i know she has a passion for horse and loves and dedicates her life to her horses we wanted her to play basketball with them but she has to ride so she does not have time i go to the barn with her after school sometimes to help her clean and do other things with the horse she enjoys being with that horse and would love your comments to help her but i think in a much nicer way now none of you can say oh sunkist stop getting your friends to stand up for you because she is not i know one of her friends from the barns has said something but i did this completly on my own and i assume she will se itbut fro now i will say that Sunkist has a very special gift with horses!

Danielle Shoptaw!

V McCormick
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:27 AM
There are MANY valid points that have been discussed and VERY good advice given to you. Perhaps the other 14 bits you have tried didn't work because you didn't give them a fair chance. If you have to use the 3-ring, fine. Lose the pulley reins and teach the horse to move forward into your ELASTIC hands. I would be willing to bet that even though he is strong and seems forward, he isn't truly off your leg and into your hand. Lots of transitions, figure 8's, leg yielding, trot and canter poles where you teach him to balance himself rather than balancing on the pulley reins. (I shuddered when you said they help him tuck his nose.) He will go in a rounder "frame" when he reaches under himself with his rear. (Jim Graham uses the motor boat example, when the boat's engine is working in the rear, then the front of the boat will rise.) When he is really working, then you add some small jumps to the equation. Putting a slightly raised groundpole on the landing side 6-9 ft out makes them think. (Only jump when there is supervision, you never know what may happen!) Gymnastics will help keep him sharp and thinking. Don't jump the same thing over and over again. Rythmn is the key and the horse, in schooling, should take you to the jump with no more than a soft feel on the reins by the rider, and only slight adjustments if necessary.

I don't think any one doubts that you care about your horses. I agree with AW, you should spend the rest of the winter teaching the horse to move from your seat and legs and jumping on a loose rein and lots of work without stirrups!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:27 AM
the only classes i did in this show were JUMPER classes....it was a SCHOOLING show!!!! the rest of us did funky wraps too...there were all of 3 barns there MAYBE! not a big deal...we just do it to have fun!! we change our horses names for them and everything...its just for FUN!!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Janet
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:29 AM
I think that what your friend said, psoting under your name, was very good.

You might want to go out and buy the Linda Allen gymnastic exercises, or the Jimmy Wofford ones. They would probably help both you AND your horse.

crzylegs
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:30 AM
Sunkist I believe second chance apoligized and we all uderstand it was just a schooling show.

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:31 AM
alright thanks!!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

second chance
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:34 AM
I deleted my "rude" irrational remarks and will keep from further posting to this thread. My lips are zipped and I will now step away from it.

Spunky
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:42 AM
Wow . . . I skipped most of these 10 pages. I'll just tell you what I think from looking at your pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

First, nice horse! It looks like you are having a great time with him -- and he with you! -- and that is SOOOO important! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You appear to have a ducking habit . . . I didn't see it on the nice picture of your pony so this may have developed since you have been riding your greenie. You really should nip this habit in the bud -- yes many fine riders duck but you will usually see them doing it over bigger fences.

You do have a lot of tack on this horse in the schooling show pic -- it makes me wonder if you are giving him such a HUGE release because you have to hold him so hard down to the fence, and you want to be sure that you are not in his face over the jump. The downside to this huge release is that you end up throwing him away -- losing contact and having to regain it after the fence. You can do this with a nice quiet hunter but you can't afford to with a jumper. Just think about some of those turns you'll have to execute! Jumpers need to be balanced even more than they need to be fast.

I think that you should do a lot of gymnastics with this horse. Let HIM figure out that why he shouldn't race to the fence! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Keep taking him to shows though & do what you need to do at the shows.

Good luck with him and keep having FUN!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Spunky

fleur
Jan. 22, 2003, 10:47 AM
One more thing about the polos -- they re fine for schooling shows, sure. Yours seem to be very well-wrapped, too, which not everyone can do. However, I am always wary of polos over fences just because on the off-chance that the velcro comes undone, if the wrap unravels it presents a serious safety risk. You'd be better off with neoprene splint boots or open fronts. I save the polos for flatwork, and use splint boots on a horse that needs extra protection when jumping.

*EMMA*

ShowBiz
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
i guess that is just saying that i trust her enough that she wont "dissappear"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful...if you think like that all the time, you will eventually eat dirt. It's nice that you CAN trust your horse, but it's good to build a solid leg before you think that "trusting your horse" makes it ok. Moral of this post is to strengthen your leg, in most of your photos, your leg has slipped back. Trusting your horse will only get you so far.

Just my advice...I have been there (trusting horses too much until I landed in the fences one too many times--with a trainers very smart grand prix jumper, boy did I learn to build a solid leg after that!). I ride greenies & difficult horses everyday...tons of no stirrup work has helped me tremendously. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Fate is what happens when you don't take charge."

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:18 AM
thanks spunky!! i appreciate comments like those!!! (0:,' emma- yeah, i always kind of worry about that too, this was only a week after i bought him... i had not bought all of the necessities yet, he now has open front eskradon boots and back boots

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

joli
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:23 AM
Ok--I just can't help myself and have to respond. There are a few very thoughtful, helpful replies on this board but the rest remind me of a bunch of vultures circling their prey. Give the girl a break. She looks like she has a lot of natural talent and has had some of the tougher horse to ride.
Also, I think some horses fall into the UNCONVENTIONAL category--especially some jumpers. Certainly, flatwork will help improve his flexibility, etc but may not change his natural way of going. Some big time jumpers go in a very unorthodox manner but do quite well. I had two of these as a junior rider and won my fair share in the jr jumpers and even did grand prix futures classes with one of them. I got these horses cheap because they were tough rides and the trainers generally did not like them because they were difficult--but, they got the job done. No amount of work on the flat or otherwise would have changed them--I know a lot of people tried. I agree that she should lose the gadgets especially the draw reins over the jumps.
She looks like she is a natural rider but needs to learn how to ride this horse. First, tighten the leg with a lot of work without stirrups and in two point. Sit up to the base of the jumps and then ---especially important --is to learn the automatic release. This is best done in a grid. The horse is natuarally a high-headed jumper--you may improve this but you won't change his inherent style. Learn to work with the horse to ride him properly which will be completely a different ride from your pony. He looks to me that he has a ton of scope and is probably bored at this height. I don't think that lowering the jumps is the answer--he needs something to back him off. Once you have a more secure base of support and automatic release then I think raising the jumps would be the better answer.
An aside: The jumper that I had was a complete almost unrideable maniac over anything smaller than 4'--he thought it was a joke. I had a visiting trainer teach me who made me jump cross rails for 1 hour because the horse looked difficult. He went ballistic and flat out refused to jump anything more that day. So, moral of the story is that each horse is an individual and you need to learn to work with the horses natural way of going--you can improve it but you won't be able to completely change it.
In a clinic I attended last weekend with a BNT, former Olympian etc there were a couple of horses there that didn't go in the traditional fashion and rather than try to start from square one he told the riders--don't fight it, you will never get this particular horse to go in that fashion, it isn't his way and you need to learn to work with your horse and learn to ride him the way it makes him happy.
But, do lose the gadgets and good luck. I see a lot of talent that needs work and polishing.

Clive's Mom
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:30 AM
Joli - well said.
It's a nice, nice horse. Sometimes you do what you have to and experiment to find the happy medium. I certainly don't want ANY of you who feel the need to bash this kid at my barn on the days the 3-ring or the german martingale come out for schooling. My horse, My trainer, Our decisions, and seeing lots of progress.

BTW - the very first page - your pics. LOVE the one of you standing with the horse. Great pic - deserves framing.

"A horse which stops dead just before a jump thus propels its rider into a graceful arc provides for general merriment" - Duke of Edinburgh

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:33 AM
thanks joli!! those are the kind of comments that HELP me...your one entry has helped more than the rest of all of the people put together (which also helped some...) i agree w/ a lot of the things that you are saying and i think you understand my horse and his attitude and stuff... do you have any pics of your horse? if you do id love to see it!! pls post them! thnx much!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

commodore
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:47 AM
All right, I can't resist. the reason this criticism is NOT too harsh and the reason it MUST be said is because she is ruining the poor horse! There is no use in keeping our mouths shut if it may save some sweet jumper from having his balance thrown off and his mouth sawed away.

Sorry--I just had to respond to all of *~!*sunkistbaby*!~*!!'s defenders. Now carry on.

By the way, you and your atrocious grammar are why I am afraid to have children and send them off to some terrible school--is this stuff rampant among teenagers these days?? And I am only 26!

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:54 AM
i am at a VERY respectable school!! how many schools that you know of have an olympic size pool that we swim in for gym???? i am not ruining the horse...how am i RUINING him??? the pony i trained turned out just fine...RIGHT

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:55 AM
clives mom-thank you too!!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Clive's Mom
Jan. 22, 2003, 11:55 AM
Commodore -

Why am I not surprised to see your user name on a post that personally attacks someone? I do seem to remember YOU defending the rights of posters asking questions and requesting opinions - oh, I don't know, maybe JUST THE OTHER DAY?

High horse - get off of it. I prefer a kinder, gentler BB these days.

"A horse which stops dead just before a jump thus propels its rider into a graceful arc provides for general merriment" - Duke of Edinburgh

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:00 PM
why is everyone saying that i am ruining my horse?????????

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Britney
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by commodore:
All right, I can't resist. the reason this criticism is NOT too harsh and the reason it MUST be said is because she is ruining the poor horse! There is no use in keeping our mouths shut if it may save some sweet jumper from having his balance thrown off and his mouth sawed away.

Sorry--I just had to respond to all of *~!*sunkistbaby*!~*!!'s defenders. Now carry on.

By the way, you and your atrocious grammar are why I am afraid to have children and send them off to some terrible school--is this stuff rampant among teenagers these days?? And I am only 26!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sawed off!?! Sorry, a plain snaffle mouth piece like the 3-ring has isn not going to saw her horse's mouth off. Who ever said she was pulling on him? by the o/f pics it's ahem, somewhat obvious she's not in his face. Yeah, see these are the type of posts that are completely unecessary and come from the sort of people I would never want to have the unfortunate pleasure of meeting. The just plain rude ones. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Do you actually think your advice or snotty worded opinions are going to "save" sunkist's horse?

Yeah... Because he's so obviously being abused. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

Britney
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *!*SunkistBaby4*!*:
why is everyone saying that i am ruining my horse?????????

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!* <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry your not. To me, you look to be quite a naturally talented rider and it seems like your horse just need to finish figuring each other out. Your ducking yes, but alot of people do that, and it's not to say your not trying to improve and fix that habit every day. Please, take whatever you want from these posts. Appreciate the helpful ones and take the negative, unnecessary ones with less than a grain of salt. For what it's worth, your horse looks like a talented guy who is definately strong, but is happy and enjoys his job and loves his mommy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:10 PM
britany- your last sent. is confusing me...are u being sarcastic or do u seriously think that he is being abused????????

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:14 PM
ohhhhhhh ok!!!!!! THANKS!! yeah, i didnt think i was "ruining" him either!! i will be THRILLED if he ends up half as good as the pony!!

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Britney
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:15 PM
No, no I think he's lovely and you certainly don't look like your hurting him at all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, I happen to love your polos. I have wanted to get a pink pair for my boy for awhile. The pink and blue look adorable on him. I love that they match your shirt too, it looks very cute!

*Britney*
~Rush Hour~


"He has galloped through young girl's dreams, added richness to grown women's lives, and served men in war and strife." ~Toni Robinson

commodore
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:17 PM
My "sawing off" comment was in regards to the pulley reins. I personally think they should be used only in the hands of an experienced rider. I remember schooling for the maclay finals and having the girl behind me get hers taken away by Ronnie Mutch (with whom she was riding) b/c even she did not know how to use them.

Also, Clive's mom: I *think* I just defended MiniWelsh and and Rockstarr (not certain to what you are referring??). I never defended the rights of people to seek a critique, post a pic, and then fail to heed the results. That has always bothered me: if you are going to post a pic, you better be thick-skinned, b/c people will be able to find flaws in any picture. I'm sick of people posting them then whining about the results.

It may sound unbelievable or even naive, but I am truly concerned for this horse. Stuff like this makes me so sad and I hope this horse (who has cute pricked ears now) doesn't start to hate his job as his owner continues to rush the jumps and lose her balance on him over the fences.

deltawave
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:21 PM
Sunkist, a couple of questions: what is your game plan in the immediate future for your horse? What are you working on in your riding? What, exactly, do you plan to "take" from the reams of advice you've gotten here? I'd personally feel overwhelmed by all of it--do you think you can see yourself actually implementing any of these suggestions? Curious...nothing more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Kelly (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/imag0009.gif)
Bonnie (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/fancy.jpg)
Gwen (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/files/bridge.jpg)

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:26 PM
my horse loves what he does, and are you saying that after riding for 9 years isnt ENOUGH experience????

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Clive's Mom
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:26 PM
Commodore - you posted this on a pretty heated thread the other day:

"I have lost touch with some people precisely because of that--I kept up with them solely through the BB and now I don't know what is going on in their lives. I.e., it's not like I would ever call bgoosewood, but I would love to hear how she is holding up. I don't know how to reach Heineken, but I have been wondering if she had a job. But I refuse to check because a) I have decided not to waste my time anymore where I am prone to personal attack and b) the impartiality of it all was just driving me nuts and it is a waste of my energy that would be better spent on my work or at the barn."

So - it's ok to personally attack other BB members, but you while you can dish it out, you can't take it?

Honestly - giving the girl constructive criticism is one thing - telling her she is ruining her horse is quite another. But then, with your vast experience as a rider, I'm sure you know everything about a horse just from looking at a few pictures. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (and that goes for the rest of the vultures too).

"A horse which stops dead just before a jump thus propels its rider into a graceful arc provides for general merriment" - Duke of Edinburgh

*!*KabelGirl*!*
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:28 PM
in the immediate future i hope to do lots more gymnastics with him to get him less strung out and more obeying... i am going to show him in LOW SCHOOLING JUMPERS (3') this coming up show season...and prob childs/adult jumpers the next, i listened to the people that were nice about giving advice and understood what i was talking baout, not those who said things such has "you are ruining the poor horse!" those comments never even went under consideration... what would you think if you were me??

*!*LiVe LiKe ThErEs No ToMOrRow~SiNg LiKe No OnEs LiStEnInG~LoVe LiKe YoUlL nEvEr GeT hUrT~aNd DaNcE LiKe No OnEs WaTcHiNg*!*

Weatherford
Jan. 22, 2003, 12:33 PM
OK - I think this has gone far enough.

SunkistBaby4 - let's see the next pictures of you and your obviously nice horse showing a lovely soft relaxed trot and a nice (whatever size) fence with no ducking, auto release, and tighter leg! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif In a plain snaffle with no other gadgets. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course, I always recommend gymnastics as the best way to achieve that. I recommended gymnastics even BEFORE the book was published - or even written, for that matter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif