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View Full Version : The Paul Valliere ad in the 11/15 Chronicle



Coreene
Nov. 25, 2002, 09:33 AM
Did I miss the thread in which a bunch of us puked when they saw that ad?

Coreene
Nov. 25, 2002, 09:33 AM
Did I miss the thread in which a bunch of us puked when they saw that ad?

wadino
Nov. 25, 2002, 09:37 AM
I read that ad, and thought there would be a big topic on this here. Guess not...

Bumpkin
Nov. 25, 2002, 09:40 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Thank you Coreene.
I also hope that the new Amature Issue does not feature a client of Mr PV like it did last year.
I love my weekly COTH but that is one article that I did not like.
JMHO of course

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"

Flashy Gray
Nov. 25, 2002, 09:49 AM
Coreene, I assume you are referring to a "Thank You" ad that was run that thanked PV.

Every time I see one of those I puke and then I want to hop on here and start a big old thread about it.

And then I stop myself because I know we have a classic 20+ page PV thread already. Actually we have several. In which I expressed my opinion loudly.

But to clarify your post - you are referring to a "Thank You" ad, no?

Dementia 13
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:02 AM
Nooooooooooo..........stop tempting me!

thecowboyway
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:05 AM
That amateur is no longer a customer of PV's. (she didn't leave voluntarily either)

dublin
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:05 AM
My issue won't be arriving for a week or so, but I'm already gagging! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Coreene
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:13 AM
but something to the effect of Because he donated 1/2 of his lesson proceeds, there was a big donation to the ASPCA or Humane Society or something.

Gag me with a spoon.

Why not have donated that ad $$ to the ASPCA as well?

[This message was edited by Coreene on Nov. 25, 2002 at 01:22 PM.]

Midge
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:14 AM
The thing I hated about it the most was it left the impression the ad might have been placed by the ASPCA!

Where is the retching graemlin????

PS-VTRider, I tried. I really, really tried! But hey! At least I didn't start it!!!

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:

And then I stop myself because I know we have a classic 20+ page PV thread already. Actually we have several. In which I expressed my opinion loudly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where is it? Since I have NO IDEA who this person is, and since I will never, and I mean NEVER be showing, I want to know what this is all about!

(Typed with one hand since I was eating an absolutely KILLER piece of Texas Sheet Cake with the other.)

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Lisamarie8
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
but something to the effect of Because he donated 1/2 of his lesson proceeds, there was a big donation to the ASPCA or Humane Society or something.

Gag me with a spoon.

Why not have donated that $$ to the ASPCA as well, instead of spending it on an ad to blow sunshine up your own ass?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, Coreene...Lets be realistic. There is a VERY simple explanation as to why he didn't do that. The ad that would needed to be purchased to blow the amount of sunshine up that ass to brighten up the dark hole where his soul and common sense of decency used to live could NEVER be acquired with less than half the proceeds...

I mean really /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Flashy Gray
Nov. 25, 2002, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The ad that would needed to be purchased to blow the amount of sunshine up that ass to brighten up the dark hole where his soul and common sense of decency used to live could NEVER be acquired with less than half the proceeds... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely spot on, sister!

Hitch - totally ironic that in your post on this particular thread you used the word "KILLER" - as an adjective, but I still can't get over the ironic black humour in that one.

The last massive PV thread revolved around the original ad placed by him shortly after 9/11 regarding the donation of 1/2 his training proceeds to the ASPCA. I admit I missed the 11/15/02 follow-up ad.

Hopefully that original thread is still available in the "Favorites" section. If no, it's too bad - and I must admit, although I hold very strong anti-PV opinions, those who expressed sentiments opposite of mine did so in a very clear manner.

Those posters didn't (and won't) change my mind but kudos to them for jumping into a very emotional subject.

Jane
Nov. 25, 2002, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
The thing I hated about it the most was it left the impression the ad might have been placed by the ASPCA!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thought exactly!! talk about deceiving ads!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 25, 2002, 12:05 PM
ICK ICK ICK ICK ICK!!!!!!!!!

'Nuff said!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Portia
Nov. 25, 2002, 12:13 PM
The ad is a 1/4 page on page 12 in large bold type, without any graphics, and reads in its entirety:

"As a result of Paul Valliere donating half of his lesson proceeds, the ASPCA has received another generous contribution to aid those animals affected during the tragedy of September 11th. We thank him!"

It has no indication of who placed the ad.

Flash44
Nov. 25, 2002, 12:16 PM
Is it made by cheerleader moms? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If it's that good, post the recipe! Or email it to me, Flash44@comcast.net.

Thanks!

SBT
Nov. 25, 2002, 12:25 PM
...can't he just shut up and go away?

I say the same thing every time the Rev. Al Sharpton has something to say regarding ANOTHER perceived civil rights issue, every time the public hears from OJ Simpson, and every time Mike Tyson assaults someone and gets arrested...again. ENOUGH of you people already! Haven't you learned that the public spotlight does not display your charming personalities very well?

As for Paul Valliere, unless publicly advertising good deeds is part of his humane education penalty, he needs to "shut up and go away" too, and avoid publicizing his acts of contrition. It just makes him seem like even more of a pompous jerk. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Sara
*Charter member of the GM Fan Club*
*Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*

HSM
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:11 PM
And in case anyone's wondering, I am referring to the ad, not to this thread!

Ugh!!!

Pixie Dust
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:17 PM
who IS this person?

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

Applesauce
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:17 PM
I sooooooooo don't get it. Would someone explain this to me? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

Medievalist
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:28 PM
It should say who placed the ad on the ad listings in the chronicle. It is usually near the back...

Je m'raconte des histoires; En écoutant sa voix
C'est pas vrai ces histoires; Mais moi j'y crois.
Mon mec Ã* moi
-Patricia Kaas
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Flashy Gray
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:33 PM
When Coreene first started this thread, I went to the Favorites section and then the search engine to set up a link to the old threads.

Every time I typed in PVs name I got an error message. I haven't tried to type in "Hot Blood" or anything like that.

Anyone care to answer BGoose and 'Sauce's request? I just can't do it very succinctly.

Moesha
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:35 PM
I had posted something about this earlier and then deleted it because I just hate this whole subject.

Honestly I have no opnion of the people involved. The courts and governing bodies made decisions and handed down what they deemed appropriate punishments, terms, fines, etc.

The end result is that beautiful, loyal and devoted horses. Who gave so much and asked for very little in return other then to be loved and cared for. Where brutally killed. They were electrocuted, suffocated, and had legs broken by crow bars....simply for money. Money they were worth on their insurance records.


It makes no difference to me whether the people involved who were found guilty are re-instated into the show world, frankly many already are and have large support and friends...that is fine I have no opinion whatsoever on it.

I would give anything to have my horse back, anything to know that as I type this he is coming in to eat, that after work when I drive up to the barn he will be waiting in his stall for his carrots and his favorite molasses treats. That he will be at the door when I cluck while turning on the barn lights and will be so happy to have his face curried with his favorite brush. I would give anything to ahve somehow fixed whatever was wrong several weeks ago...and yet I couldn't there was nothing that could be done.

So to me noble or valiant acts now can never, ever erase what happend. Those horses killed for their insurance claims were healthy and happy and nothing anyone can do now can take away the fear and suffering and horror they expereinced at the hands of people, people tehy trusted and would do anything to please.

So I do not care about the adds or the donations or this and that...because I couldn't do anything but be there for my horse to try to comfort him and let him now that everything was fine even though I know he was in so much pain and that I would never leave him....and these people choose to make there horses suffer horribly for money.

So frankly nothing they do makes any difference. If it helps other animals great and if they are welcomed back with open arms great, but it doesn't change what happened.

Lisamarie8
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:41 PM
Mo, I just wanna hug ya.

You said it all perfectly.

--- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

Erin
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:52 PM
The search isn't working right now... Infopop is working on it.

But we JUST had a big PV brouhaha thread not more than a few weeks ago. Really, people, there's nothing new to say here... when the search is working again, dig up the old threads if you want to know what the big stink is all about.

Janeway
Nov. 25, 2002, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
It makes no difference to me whether the people involved who were found guilty are re-instated into the show world, frankly many already are and have large support and friends...that is fine I have no opinion whatsoever on it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an odd thing to say. You spend a few paragraphs saying how awful it is that these horses die and how wrong it was, then go on to say you have no opinion whatsoever? That makes no sense because obviously you do. Why are you afraid to admit it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bgooswood and anyone else, to answer your question, Paul Valliere is one of the individuals who was involved in the horse insurance killings that occured in the early 90's. The same ones that Barney Ward and George Lindeman were involved in. Mr. Valliere arranged (through Barney Ward I beleive) to have one of his "useless" horses killed for insurance money.

There used to be some great threads on this, but they seem to have disappeared. Either that or its my computer that is not working.

Seven
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
The search isn't working right now... Infopop is working on it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as an FYI....the search never seems to work for me any more at any time. If I don't get an error message, then I get results that have no words in them I was searching for and are not at all restricted to the date limitations I included. Even more irritating, no matter how restrictive I make the search, I get an error telling me the search is too broad. Not complaining...just letting you know so you can pass it along to Infopop.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

peepie
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:08 PM
WHY would COTH publish this ad? Certainly can't be THAT hard up for ad revenue? I don't know of any "anti-discrimination" laws in running ads! COTH should be ashamed?

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Moesha
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:13 PM
janeway. I don't hink it is odd at all, I am saying the courts and the organizations we have given power to resolve these matters have handed down their punishments and decisions. That I simply am not interested now in how the people involved are received by anyone else...also because that is up to each individual at this point.

My only concern is for the horses.

I am not afraid to state any opinion of mine. I simply don't have on regarding how others should feel about the individuals involved. Again it is up to each person to decide.

chrissy mackris
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:21 PM
im sorry for your loss, i lost my first horse, so i know how you feel
stay strong

*Tipperary*
AOL:zulu59
AIM:clm91284

rockstarr
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:26 PM
gambit ...

actually, I don't think there's a publication in circ right now that isn't "hard up" for ad revenue. Things really stink right now.

But I think you raise an interesting point. Turning away controversial advertisers is not something many publications are interested in doing. When a pub starts basing revenue decisions on morality (or lack thereof) it gets tricky. Where would all of you BBers draw the line, if you were the boss?

Were I the publisher, I would have a really hard time accepting that revenue. But that's just me. It is a trade magazine for horsepeople. And he is a horseperson who, legally, has been cleared. Turning away that money would send a message that advertisers are judged by some criteria other than an ability to pay. Probably, his money is just as good as the next guy's.

The way that voices are heard in a situation like this, generally, is via subscriber action. Also at points of distribution. I encountered this quite a bit when I worked for a paper that accepted "adult" advertising. Angry readers wrote letters to the editor. Subscribers canceled. And newsstands refused to carry it. By the same token, the paper had many supporters.

So, in instances of outrage, a lot of tough questions need to be asked, in my opinion. Such as: Do you want to support the magazine that accepts that kind of advertiser (up to and including its online community)? Lots of interesting wrinkles with something like this. As always, I'm sure opinions will run the gamut.

Coreene
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:34 PM
Very rarely, but I can think of three in the last five years.

Dementia 13
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:35 PM
That's why I think this thread is a good thing - rather than just rehashing the whole PV mess, rockstarr has raised an interesting ethical point that I would be interested in hearing opinions on.

Heidi
Nov. 25, 2002, 02:45 PM
Were ads accepted, or denied, for that matter, on the grounds of a moral standard (and who's, BTW), I don't imagine that many print publications would survive.

Paul Valliere's ad or a celeb's line of linens, sewn by 9 year old children in India under deplorable conditions? Barney Ward or Mike Miliken, who bankrupted and destroyed countless Americans...

Tobi
Nov. 25, 2002, 03:16 PM
the fact that 3 different posters with thousands of posts between them don't know who PV is, is reason enough to bring this issue up again!!

the truth must be retold while there are still horse people out there who don't know what the dark side of human nature can do.

just the mention of any of the people involved turns my stomach!!

jr
Nov. 25, 2002, 03:25 PM
I thought the ad was ridiculous (along with the previous version awhile ago). If you have to post an ad to say you haven't killed any horses lately...

It amazes me that people still go to him for coaching. How ironic, if you need him to help prepare you for the ASPCA Medal class....then you're missing the point of the entire class aren't you?

BNP
Nov. 25, 2002, 03:29 PM
I would like to know WHO is the "we" that is thanking him? Did those people buy the ad? Did PV buy the ad and "imply" that some other more important folks are "thanking him"? The whole subject reeks. Throw money on it and it will all go away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

HeyYouNags
Nov. 25, 2002, 03:43 PM
It's not a COTH topic, but here's a listing of what he and others were convicted of, and their sentences:

indictments (http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm)

armandh
Nov. 25, 2002, 03:48 PM
http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm
note last line.... must have affirmative proof

free
Nov. 25, 2002, 04:07 PM
Thanks to everyone who helped to explain who pv is. How revolting and how can someone have such NERVE! But I suppose that explains why he does what he does. There are truly despicable humans in this world. Makes me want to retreat into a world of just animals.

Texas sheetcake is almost as good as Mississippi Mud cake!

Bumpkin
Nov. 25, 2002, 04:57 PM
I was offended after the whole horse killings and PV being exposed to read that article last year about one of his older students, reading her rave about PV as a trainer.
I still think the writer could have found someone else's student to write about.
It is the only time I was disappointed in the COTH.
But I don't have a clue why that article was written or printed. JMHO

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"

Erin
Nov. 25, 2002, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
I was offended after the whole horse killings and PV being exposed to read that article last year about one of his older students, reading her rave about PV as a trainer.
I still think the writer could have found someone else's student to write about.
It is the only time I was disappointed in the COTH.
But I don't have a clue why that article was written or printed. JMHO
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, maybe because the student was a noteworthy person worth writing about?

I never read that partiuclar article and don't know who it was about, but it seems to me that if someone rode well enough and was successful enough to merit being noticed by the COTH, they should be able to thank whomever they like. Who you train with, for good OR for bad, shouldn't factor into that one iota.

I'm not that familiar with the advertising side of things at COTH, and I don't know if they turn down ads, and for what reason.

rockstarr
Nov. 25, 2002, 05:40 PM
For the sake of discussion, to those who are outraged, my questions would include:

Are you ...

1. Going to write a letter to the editor?

2. Threaten to cancel or outright cancel your subscription?

3. Stop distributing COTH (if, say, you own or operate a tack shop and it's available at your establishment)?

4. Cease to participate in this online community? How do you think this bandwidth is paid for? Advertising dollars. And part of those may come from questionable characters.

5. Do nothing -- just keep ranting about it?

I agree that no one ever should forget what happened. I guess I'm just wondering, as we're on the third thread or so in the past few weeks, when the pages upon pages of outrage will turn into any action, what that action might be, and if that action is appropriate.

Is saying, "I'd never train with him," really saying that much? Take me, for instance. He's several states away from where I live, I couldn't afford him, and I'm probably not good enough to ride on that level anyway. So me saying something like that is, essentially, absurd and empty. It makes me a lemming of sorts.

I'm going to really dork out here but oh well ... I saw Sam Donaldson on a lecture tour a few years ago (that's right ... paid money to see Sam Donaldson ... and he ROCKED!) When someone asked Sam whom he admired most, he said George Will. And he said that because, as much as they differ from time to time, George had completely thought out his politics. He knew himself inside and out, Sam said. There was continuity to his behavior, right down to every last detail. The way he lived his life fell in line with his philosophies, according to Sam. That's such a lame example -- sorry -- but it's the only one I can think of to set up my (way too long-winded) questions.

I guess what I'm wondering is, for anyone who is outraged, how much have you thought through your stance? Does it transcend empty threats (like mine) to never train with the guy or directly give him money? And if not, are you satisfied with that?

Not pointing fingers, or I'd have to point a big fat one at myself for being wishy washy. Just looking to prompt a bit of a different discussion beyond the standard, "That's reprehensible!" Because that's pretty much written in stone.

Kryswyn
Nov. 25, 2002, 06:34 PM
...and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses.

Bingo! Mystery solved. The frightening thing is that 10 years will have passed in just four more years. He will be back.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Hexel
Nov. 25, 2002, 06:58 PM
Maybe he did not need to donate much.

How many animals were in the world trade centers?

It seems to me more people were affected then animals ,it's not as if it were a forrest fire in the middle of a game refuge or animal park!

I may be way off base, but my reaction to the first ad was ,hmmmm was this an animal disaster? If not many animals were affected ,well how much donating would there be?

Anyone have any thoughts my direction ,or am I just crazy to see a diffrent spin to this?

Molly99
Nov. 25, 2002, 07:36 PM
Can you say lawsuit?

Sorry, but I am one that agrees with free speech.

The same liberty that allows all of you to say what you do on this BB also allows anyone to take out an ad in COTH provided they pay the fees.

Think about the helmet ad placed last year.

They had every right to take it out.

You may not agree with what he does or what he says, but he is a free man in a free country, as are you.

And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.

rant over

and rockstarr - I have ridden with him and would again if I was in the same situation.

Would I leave a horse in his care, probably not, but there are many other trainers that I would not leave my horses with either and many of them that I would never pay for a lesson from.

Erin
Nov. 25, 2002, 08:20 PM
Regarding the WTC, yes, there were lots of animals affected. The ASPCA was down there for a week or two rescuing animals trapped in apartments that were off limits (or whose owners simply weren't coming home /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ), there were TONS of search and rescue dogs involved, etc.

Back when I USED /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif to work for an animal health care magazine, we did a slew of post 9-11 stories. You wouldn'ta thunk there'd be animal angles, but there were. Not sure there are many left NOW, but anyway...

And I have to say I agree with WC Princess. I'd rather a publication allow anyone who can pay for it to take out an ad, rather than have some sort of screening process by which someone would "qualify" to advertise. When you do that, you allow too much subjectivity into the mix.

I have heard of publications turning down ads based on their content -- the example I can recall is my college newspaper choosing TO run an ad that other college papers had turned down (something claiming the Holocaust didn't happen /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ), specifically because they felt they shouldn't deny those people an avenue to voice their opinion.

But I can't say that I've ever heard of a publication turning down an ad because of WHO was placing it... not saying it's never happened, but in my limited experience, I've never heard of it.

creseida
Nov. 25, 2002, 08:20 PM
IMO, Paul keeps running these ads for two reasons:

One, he wants to schmooze people (especially the unknowing) into thinking he is a wonderful caring person when it comes to the welfare of animals in distress, so that when his 10 years are up, the newbies will welcome him with open arms for being "so wonderful" &lt;&lt;puking smilie&gt;&gt; /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, and,

Two: to rub it in the AHSA/UsaEq's face that even though they've banned him because of his reprehensible acts, that there are enough people out there keeping him rolling in dough, who care more about winning than about the animals they ride, that they will do "whatever" it takes to win, including training with someone who is one level below pond scum. IMO. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 25, 2002, 08:31 PM
My Opinion. If PV really cared and felt sorry for what he had done, he would leave the horse world alone, and get a job selling cars or something else. I don't really think a tiger changes their stripes, and I would have a hard time believing he is sorry for anything other than getting caught. But even so, when you betray an animal like that, you have no business having anything to do with animals again for the rest of your life. Again, my opinion.

I also believe that anyone that would not want to puke if he was in the same air space, must be OK with killing animals if is suits their financial purpose, and they are also not ones I would choose to have contact with, or ever sell any of my horses to.

If PV (or Barney Ward, etc) could guarantee my horses would win every show they ever entered, they would not be welcome to breathe their airspace. I would prefer that my horses/kids never had any show future, than to degrade them by letting garbage come near.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

HSM
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:08 AM
..why not tell us what you REALLY think? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(By the way, I totally agree with you!)

Tackpud
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:55 AM
Anyone know who "The Oxer Group" is? According to the Advertiser's Index they're the one's who placed the ad.

I'm staying out of the rest of this issue - it makes me sick. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Dementia 13
Nov. 26, 2002, 06:01 AM
And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.
__________________________________

And who might you be to decide that WCPrincess? Or does free speech not hold true for us?

dressager
Nov. 26, 2002, 06:23 AM
but around Oct/Nov does anyone recall him taking out a smaller ad saying he was going to donate 1/2 of his profits from a few months to the animals of the WTC?

********
We start believin' now that we can be who we are. -Grease

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 06:53 AM
Kryswyn - Yup! I believe you hit the nail on the head!

Rockstarr - yes, I will be penning a letter to COTH expressing my opinion on running the ad! I don't give a damn about free speech (sorry, but in this case I just DON'T) when it comes to this particular matter. Yes, I believe COTH should have not accepted the ad - I doubt it's absence would break the bank - it is HYPOCRITICAL, IMO...a mag that celebrates the horse yet forgives & forgets what was done to those horses? Morals & ethics? Whose, you ask? Well, I'd be willing to bet all horsepeople would say those actions were immoral and unethical. And if I did subscribe to COTH, yes, I would cxl my subscription based soley on the inclusion of the ad.
But this is only my opinion.

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Molly99
Nov. 26, 2002, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dementia 13:
And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.
__________________________________

And who might you be to decide that WCPrincess? Or does free speech not hold true for us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I said it is the free speech that allows you to have this thread.

My point was simply that by the continuation of these threads and there have been MANY, all you are doing is giving him publicity.

Good or bad, you are still talking about him and that is publicity you are generating for him.

7/8
Nov. 26, 2002, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WC Princess:

My point was simply that by the continuation of these threads and there have been MANY, all you are doing is giving him publicity.

Good or bad, you are still talking about him and that is publicity you are generating for him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are absolutely correct. What is that saying, "No such thing as bad publicity."

Midge
Nov. 26, 2002, 08:46 AM
I have to disagree. The number of people who knew nothing of PV before we started discussing him is astonishing. Every time the subject arises, someone else says, "what'd he do?" So, instead of thinking, 'What a great, caring horseman to give all that moola" they think, 'What a repulsive scumbag."

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Seven
Nov. 26, 2002, 08:51 AM
Since he doesn't seem to be going away, I like to think these threads are more educational then publicity. I'm amazed there are still horse people who *don't* know about the whole criminal enterprise he was a part of and as long as there are, threads like this serve a purpose of educating them.

I don't hold anything against COTH for publishing the ad....and I am a subscriber. The ad doesn't do much IMO for PV anyway, because those who think he has no part in the horse biz aren't going to be swayed by it and those who support him aren't going to become any more supportive of him because of it, either. The one good thing it does is it continues to educate those who lurk and post here but still don't know who he is. The fact is, legally he's paid his debt and as a free person if he wants to take out ads to toot his own horn, then have at it. I don't have to suddenly think he's reformed because he does that and I doubt many others will either.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

Coreene
Nov. 26, 2002, 09:32 AM
Said WC Princess "The same liberty that allows all of you to say what you do on this BB also allows anyone to take out an ad in COTH provided they pay the fees."

Well actually 99% of all papers will turn down ads if they find them libelous, offensive, etc. Almost every media kit and/or rate sheet will say something to the effect of:

PUBLISHER'S APPROVAL

All advertising must be approved by Publisher. Publisher may require the word "advertisement" to appear in any advertisement. Advertisers and their agencies will indemnify, defend and hold harmless any claim and all loss, expense or liability arising out of the publication of any advertising copy.

This is what the Chronicle's says (I have bolded certain areas for emphasis):

CONTRACT AND COPY REGULATIONS

All contents of advertisements are subject to publisher’s approval.

Publisher reserves the right to reject or cancel any advertisement, insertion order, space reservation, or position commitment at any time.

Publisher expressly reserves the right not to publish any advertisement which, in the opinion of the publisher, is in bad taste, could be misleading, is unsupported by facts of record, or which, in the opinion of the publisher, does not conform to the standards and style of The Chronicle of the Horse.

All advertising claims and assertions must be supported by documentary evidence, all facts verified, and if put in question by The Chronicle of the Horse, burden of proof rests with advertiser and its agency.

All advertisements are accepted and published by The Chronicle of the Horse upon the representation of the advertising agency and the advertiser that each of them is authorized to publish the entire content and subject matter of the advertisement, and that the advertiser and its agency, if there be one, each represents that it is fully authorized and licensed to use the entire contents of the material submitted for publication as an advertisement in The Chronicle of the Horse including (1) the names, portraits and/or photographs of persons and/or animals, (2) any copyrighted material, (3) any testimonials, and (4) has the right to and is capable of selling or providing the product or service advertised at the price advertised.

The advertiser and its agency agrees to relieve The Chronicle of the Horse and its employees of responsibility from any and all claims or suits arising out of publication of advertising based on information supplied by advertiser.

All advertising contracts and copy—display and classified—must be submitted in writing. An insertion order or covering letter with signature must be included with copy.

All advertising cancellations and/or copy changes, including rerun orders, must be in writing. Cancellations or changes in orders may not be made by the advertiser or its agency after the closing date.

No advertising copy will be taken by telephone.

Publisher requests typewritten or legibly printed copy; avoid strikeovers and abbreviations. Publisher is not responsible for errors in original copy or because of misinterpretation of illegible handwriting.

The word “advertisement” will be placed with copy which, in the publisher’s opinion, resembles editorial matter.

Black and white photographs unmarked and untrimmed are preferred; no proofs will be accepted. Photographs of horses over fences in which the rider is not wearing approved safety headgear will not be accepted.

When change of copy is not received by closing date, copy from the previous issue will be inserted.

Failure to place the number of ads ordered will result in short-rating with the advertiser charged the difference in rate between the actual number of insertions placed and the number scheduled by contract.

Publisher shall have no liability for errors for which written notification is received from advertiser later than two weeks after issue date. The publisher’s liability for any error shall not exceed the cost of space occupied by the error.

So, yeah, they could have turned it down but didn't. I would have; however it's their paper so it's up to them. But it made me RETCH.

Coreene
Nov. 26, 2002, 09:35 AM
If one were to stop talking about the atrocities of WW2 because all we were doing was giving the bad guys publicity, would we or would we make sure that we never forgot what happened?

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 26, 2002, 09:54 AM
I do seem to be somewhat opinionated on occasion /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 11:13 AM
Thanks for posting the guidelines...yep, they can and they did...and it makes me retch too!
Their judgement is very clouded, IMO

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Dementia 13
Nov. 26, 2002, 12:46 PM
My point was simply that by the continuation of these threads and there have been MANY, all you are doing is giving him publicity.

Good or bad, you are still talking about him and that is publicity you are generating for him
________________________________________

I still fail to see how it is of any concern to you.

[This message was edited by Dementia 13 on Nov. 27, 2002 at 08:51 AM.]

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 12:54 PM
I guess your bb name change fits now! LOL

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Coreene
Nov. 26, 2002, 12:57 PM
I can't imagine there is anyone stupid enough on this board who will read what went on and think "Dude, cool, let me go train there!"

But enough other posters here have pointed out that reminding people over and over about what went on is necessary, because too many newbies haven't a clue. And now they do. Because of the publicity we gave the events.

Margaret, it's the same with the people in San Jacinto. What if they went an opened another place in a few years? Wouldn't you feel compelled to do the same as we are doing with this?

Dementia 13
Nov. 26, 2002, 12:58 PM
ummm, gambit, I don't think that was really called for, do you?

charming.

Flashy Gray
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:01 PM
IMHO, I don't subscribe to the popular modern theory that any publicity, even bad publicity, is a "good thing." Therefore, if talking about the early 90s horse-killing-insurance-fraud scandals generates "bad publicity" for the perpetrators, so be it.

There's a little old thing called "shame" that still holds some weight for some of us in this world, even in the face of utterly shameless actions like placing that self-serving advertisement.

I still give people some credit for being able to discern right and wrong. How can people form an opinion about those involved if we never have discussions about this topic? Do we just politely sweep everything under the carpet and act like it never happened?

I, too, am always astounded every time a PV thread comes up and people don't know who he is or what the horse-killing scandals are all about.

Dementia 13
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:23 PM
Wouldn't you feel compelled to do the same as we are doing with this?
______________________________________

Yep. I would do it too. Ad nauseum.

And by the way, to all of you who are so offended by this thread -- there's nothing wrong with disagreement - I just don't like to be told to shut up because somebody named Princess doesn't want to hear about it, that's all.

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:27 PM
ha ha ha?
no offense meant!
this thread has certainly ignigted opinions of all types.......
At least WE ALL AGREE he is slime!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Molly99
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dementia 13:
Wouldn't you feel compelled to do the same as we are doing with this?
______________________________________

Yep. I would do it too. Ad nauseum.

And by the way, to all of you who are so offended by this thread -- there's nothing wrong with disagreement - I just don't like to be told to shut up because somebody named Princess doesn't want to hear about it, that's all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since your post was directly specifically to me, I don't recall every telling anyone, even you to shut up, as you put it.

Talk about it all you want, I really don't care, it doesn't affect me directly.

I have no problem with discussing the issues and educating people that do not know the history, but all I have seen is people *itching about what an evil man he is. That is not educating people not in the know.

And for the record I don't agree with what he did.

I have had enought, good-bye

Not worth the effort to respond any further.

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:39 PM
I disagree...I think we ARE educating people "not in the know" by telling them the truth. There is even a link to look up the history of the whole thing! I don't see that there IS another side besides he is evil. Call a spade a spade!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Moesha
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:54 PM
The Horse World is very like the HollyWood all of us and by posting here on the BB are in a public forum and have to deal with the fairness and unfairness of that situation.

Everyone here has had their feeligns hurt some moreso then others I am sure I have done my own share of that...even joking and songs and "attitude" are not viewed as such by everyone.

But we are lucky to be in a world of so much information sharing and communication. We can do and achieve so much more than was ever possible and yet maybe humanity has not caught up with the advances as far as dealing with the consequences.

But the basic premise that has always been the standard is respecting peoples differences and opinions.

What happened in the "infamous" cases was sheer horror. I don't care how talented, how wonderful how much help the people gave to who and what they did or meant to the sport...the end result is that these horses were brutally killed...they were deliberately killed...and that is the issue here...People who called themeselve horsemen arranged or themeselves allowed for these beautiful creatures to be electrocuted by literally plugging them into a socket, suffocated , or slamming a crow bar again and again agaisnt their legs.

I am sorry that the people who rode with PV feel that this is bashing and that people know nothing about it.....what else is there to know.

He is and was a gifted instructor, I am sure he will be reinstated into the USA Equestrian and in many ways is and has continued to make moneyand a life out of horses lets be realistic...I do not know him, so I can't say he is like this or like that or means this or means that...but I do know what he and other people were accused of, found guilty or or admitted to....and that I do know and can never forgive those actions and they should be remembered.

[This message was edited by Moesha on Nov. 26, 2002 at 05:05 PM.]

peepie
Nov. 26, 2002, 01:56 PM
No forgive & forget!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Blue Devil
Nov. 26, 2002, 02:46 PM
I saw the ad and thought that the ASPCA had placed it.

Who paid for it?

Any way of finding out?

My karma ran over your dogma.

Seven
Nov. 26, 2002, 02:51 PM
The advertisers' index says it was placed by "The Oxer Group". I don't know who they are, but it doesn't sound like the ASPCA to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

jr
Nov. 26, 2002, 03:37 PM
Rockstarr said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is saying, "I'd never train with him," really saying that much? Take me, for instance. He's several states away from where I live, I couldn't afford him, and I'm probably not good enough to ride on that level anyway. So me saying something like that is, essentially, absurd and empty. It makes me a lemming of sorts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Making the statement "I would never train with him" is not absurd or empty, no matter who you are. In my opinion, those who train with him are actively saying that good, effective, responsible horsemanship is not important, but winning is the all important end-goal. Sorry, but how you win is just as important as winning itself. What PV did was not a minor transgression, but an act that was not only illegal, but an irrevocable statement on his lack of ethics and moral character. People who train with him are disrespecting the animals they're sitting on.

Just My Style
Nov. 26, 2002, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The advertisers' index says it was placed by "The Oxer Group". I don't know who they are, but it doesn't sound like the ASPCA to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I used to work for an advertising agency in politics (and I don't mean that to sound like a good thing /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). You will never see ads placed by "Joe Politician" they will always be placed by "Friends of Joe Politician" or "Citizens to Elect Joe Politician", etc. Joe Politician may be forking out the $ to his "Friends of" and then they buy the media under their group name. One of the oldest tricks in the book. I am sure "The Oxer Group" knows PV pretty well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Portia
Nov. 26, 2002, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
... I am sure he will be reinstated into the USA Equestrian ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything else you said, Moesha. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But not this part. I think there are many people who will work very hard to make sure he is never readmitted to membership in USA Equestrian. The difference between him and some of the others convicted is that he technically has a chance of being readmitted, which to my mind is the horsey equivalent of, say, one of the Manson Family members being eligible for parole: Possible, but not very likely in the real world.

Maybe I'm naive, but my feeling is that so long as USA Equestrian represents the wide range of membership that it does, the political opposition to the reinstatement of any of those involved in the horse killings will prevent it from occurring. After all, it would have to be approved by the eventers, and DQs, and reiners, and Arab breeders, and Saddlehorse people, and Andalusian/Lusitano owners, and vets, and endurance riders on the Board of Directors -- not to mention the hunter, jumper, and eq people who feel the same way we do. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ben and Me
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The advertisers' index says it was placed by "The Oxer Group". I don't know who they are, but it doesn't sound like the ASPCA to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If my memory serves me correctly, without comparing it to the first ad placed by PV, I would say that the fonts in the two ads are identical or very similar.

That alone would lead me to beleive that Mr. Valliere placed the ad himself. It does not seem to be a very common font for ads. This is, of course, a hypothesis-not based on fact, just a coincidence.

On a side note, I didn't know about PV before reading the numerous threads on him. The little I did know of the insurance killings came from Jodie Jaffe's books. It was all before my time (I am 16 now and have been seriously showing for about 5 years). If I am 16, and it was before my time, imagine all the younger kids/newer riders that have never heard of him.

"Well it's a marvelous night for a moondance" ~Van Morrison

7/8
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:13 PM
I am trying to figure out why people are getting so emotionally involved/bent out of shape about this. The man killed horses. The man is alive and well - and is successful. Nothing you can do about it. Are you going to have picket strikes outside Acres Wild? You live your life. Mr. V. will live his. I doubt your two paths will ever cross.

I think OJ Simpson killed two people. Am I loosing sleep over it every night? No. I feel awful for all involved (except OJ). But there is nothing I can do about it. Nothing.

Duffy
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:24 PM
I don't believe there is nothing we can do about it. We can try to make sure that PV is not allowed back into USAEq. We can not support him financially. We can educate people who do not know the history about him.

"I can justify anything!"

Beezer
Nov. 26, 2002, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 7/8:
I am trying to figure out why people are getting so emotionally involved/bent out of shape about this. The man killed horses. The man is alive and well - and is successful. Nothing you can do about it. Are you going to have picket strikes outside Acres Wild? You live your life. Mr. V. will live his. I doubt your two paths will ever cross.

I think OJ Simpson killed two people. Am I loosing sleep over it every night? No. I feel awful for all involved (except OJ). But there is nothing I can do about it. Nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's one difference: OJ was never convicted in a criminal court. PV, by his own admission, is a convicted horse killer. (Perhaps there was just a better prosecutor in the PV case. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

You can bet that if I had a daughter and she ever had occasion to move in OJ's circles (highly unlikely, but whatever), I'd sure as he$$ do everything in my power to make sure she knew about what OJ *had* been found guilty of and would do whatever I could to keep her -- and her friends -- from dating him.

As a horse owner, I can do no less for my animals.

I'd also disagree that there is "nothing" you -- or anyone else -- can do about. Sure there is. You can write to USA Eq to voice your disapproval of his potential reinstatement; you can write letters to COTH expressing your displeasure over the ad; you can educate other horse owners; you can make sure it never happens again.

No, none of that will bring any of these poor horses back. But I, for one, *still* lose sleep whenever I allow myself to think about the confusion, pain and, yes, terror those horses must have felt.

Proud member of the "Huh. I thought I'd fixed that" phase of baby green hunter ownership.

lilblackhorse
Nov. 26, 2002, 06:51 PM
like someone else mentioned, we must not forget. The fact that there are those on this bb who are asking the question "who is he?" speaks volumes.

We need to do all we can, and I am appalled that there are some who have posted on this thread that are willing to let this pondscum (no, he is a bottom dweller) keep his name out there---and more so are willing to pay this horse killer money to train them. They should be ashamed.

I will be writing a letter to usaeq.

Don't misunderestimate me. I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity.

creseida
Nov. 26, 2002, 07:19 PM
Word of Mouth in the horse world is surprisingly powerful. There is a barn near me that is perpetually empty. The facility itself is nice; the person who owns it is not.

The owner for some reason insists on trying to stay in horses, and to avoid all their creditors, declares bankruptcy every so often, and opens up under a new name. It remains empty.

Why?

Because every one in the area reminds anyone who knows about horses to aviod this person. This person cares not one whit about the horses, but about bilking every penny they can from customers. Word of mouth has kept this barn empty in spite of 5 barn name changes and 3 aliases of the owner. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

pwynnnorman
Nov. 27, 2002, 04:12 AM
I can't comment on the PV thing except to say that I think keeping a low profile after being involved in such a negative issue would have been the tasteful, dignified thing to do, regardless of any other circumstances which exist.

But about COTH (and other magazines') decisions to publish certain ads, here's what I learned a few years ago when I discovered someone publishing FALSE advertising, not only in COTH but also in PH and Equus:

The FTC (which I called) relies upon publications to police themselves and their clients. The commission does not investigate false OR offensive advertising--only the RESULTS of it. I was told that if subscribers to the publication were concerned enough to communicate their displeasure, then there should be no reason why an ethical, responsive publication would continue to publish the ads.

And it does happen every day in television, doesn't it: many networks and stations refuse to air advertising which might be (or gets proven to be) offensive (or misleading--which was the case with the ads I protested to) to their audiences.

When I contacted COTH about those ads, I got nowhere (I don't remember what the reason given was, although LATER the publication did write the occasional update on the controversy in In The Country). PH and Equus, by the time I got to them (because their deadlines are much earlier) already had put a stop on the account because of the advertiser's failure to pay (or something like that).

To be fair to COTH, however, this was all pre-BB and so I was out there all on my own, trying to bring an issue to light. I've no doubt whatsoever that, these days, IF people on BB's like this one who are also subscribers threatened to put their money where their mouths/fingers(?) are, COTH's publisher would probably consider the issue more seriously.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

armandh
Nov. 27, 2002, 04:46 AM
in every horse sale contract you do, add conditions preventing the boarding or training by any of the banned folk, include the conviction as a reason.

get this on the net as free ware and it will get in to wide circulation and be around forever as a reminder

Dementia 13
Nov. 27, 2002, 05:50 AM
armandh - wow, not a bad idea!

Gambit - I'm sorry, I seriously need a sense of humour for Christmas. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And WCPrincess, if you are reading this, I apologize and edited my post - I am actually the one who gets my panties in a wad about this issue, so I am sorry if I came on too strong.

Duffy
Nov. 27, 2002, 05:52 AM
You are loffed, even when your panties are in a wad! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I can justify anything!"

Dementia 13
Nov. 27, 2002, 05:55 AM
Mr. V. will live his. I doubt your two paths will ever cross.
_______________________________________

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't really see why you would say that - the horse world is a pretty small one, and there are a fair amount of us on the bb, and on the east coast, so it would be reasonable that at one point our paths would cross, especially if PV gets reinstated.

Anyway, we like getting worked up over this issue - I mean, what else would we talk about, helmets?


PS - Thank you Duffy!

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:29 AM
Does anyone have a list of the Trainers/Owners that were convicted?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

peepie
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:32 AM
It seems the holidays make us ALL act a little wierd! Personally, I'd like to fast-forward through the whole thing! Wonder how I can do that??????

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:34 AM
Anytime we see or know an ad is going to be placed, esp. in the COTH, maybe we could take up a collection to run a "counter/reminder" ad. Something equally tasteful /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

This kind of behavior in the horse world is only going to go away, if we ALL let trainers and owners know that it will never be tolerated.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

peepie
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:42 AM
What a good idea!
Since COTH accepts HIS, I'm sure they'd accept OURS! Count me in! I say we get busy and submit one NOW!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

dressager
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:42 AM
I had no idea who PV was (I know I've seen the name- probably in the previous COTH ad he did) but now do. No, I don't do the h/j circuit but I do know people who do- and if anyone ever brings up his name you can bet I'll have a nasty word to say about him.

Keep informing!

********
We start believin' now that we can be who we are. -Grease

Midge
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
... I am sure he will be reinstated into the USA Equestrian ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything else you said, Moesha. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But not this part. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, Portia, I so hope you are right. If not, I will be forced to 'unjoin'. To paraphrase Groucho, I can't belong to an organization that would have him as a member.

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

War Admiral
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:18 AM
Count me in if y'all decide to do the ad.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Midge
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gambit:
What a good idea!
Since COTH accepts HIS, I'm sure they'd accept OURS! Count me in! I say we get busy and submit one NOW!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps a yearly memorial ad to the horses killed by...

and list those convicted.

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Moesha
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:25 AM
How would a reinstatement hearing be handled?
Is there precedent for such a case?

peepie
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:30 AM
Do you think they'd let that fly?
Yeah, a memorial would be more "positive"...with the killer's names added for the punch!

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

lisa
Nov. 27, 2002, 08:05 AM
The ad could say something like, "It's not only the animal victims of 9/11 who need to be remembered." Then follow with a list of executed horses.

And really, what if Paul V. is reinstated to USAEq at some point? What would people do? Not renew their membership? Boycott shows? Call me a cynic, but I doubt it.

2Dogs
Nov. 27, 2002, 08:10 AM
What about a petition to ban reinstatement, published in Coth much like certain banner announcements come out in the NY Times ......?
"The below signatories register their oppostition to the reinstatement of the following convicted etc. etc. etc"

Coreene
Nov. 27, 2002, 09:16 AM
I will do it faster than $#@* through a goose.

Moesha
Nov. 27, 2002, 09:44 AM
Are you all Serious?

Would the Chronicle run an add like that?

Tully
Nov. 27, 2002, 10:10 AM
"So are you suggesting that every horse from here on out be sold with an
Owner's Manual that tells them who all the bad horse people in the world
are?"

armandh
Nov. 27, 2002, 10:15 AM
http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm

Seven
Nov. 27, 2002, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
Are you all Serious?

Would the Chronicle run an add like that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Those proposing the ad would not be publishing anything untruthful...and I'm sure their money is just as green as that from The Oxer Group.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

War Admiral
Nov. 27, 2002, 10:24 AM
So, by taking out these ads (or by forming a dummy non-profit corp. to take them out for him, which is what it looks like), PV is apparently trying to publicly establish that he has made and is continuing to make efforts toward his own "rehabilitation", thus paving the way to get reinstated by USAE.

Boy, does that s*ck. Anybody who thinks we need to NOT do something about this?

I think my proposal would be that we simply do a snail-mail or e-mail campaign to the COTH stating that we feel their acceptance of advertising from a person who is not in good standing with USAE (enclosing a copy of the conviction - thank you Armandh) is not in the best interest of the horses, the sport, or the magazine.

If we don't get a response from that, then I would suggest our getting a collection together for a counter-advertisement.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Tackpud
Nov. 27, 2002, 11:02 AM
"MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses."

A few questions:

In whose eyes does he have to "reform"? What proof is necessary? By donating money to the ASPCA how has he performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses? What actual steps has he taken to "rehabilitate" himself?

I would think that working in an animal rescue shelter would hardly be reparation for the crime - much less just donating money. Continuing to teach lessons certainly isn't benefiting the welfare of horses in general.

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 27, 2002, 01:50 PM
While I don't think I can take on the task of designing/collecting/organizing for an ad, I would certainly be willing to chip in to help pay for it. It probably doesn't even have to be a big ad. Maybe 1/4 page? Enough to send a message that we have not forgotten, and act as a deterrant for future ads, as they will know it will generate negative publicity. Save the big ad - petition for when it gets closer to them applying for reinstatement.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Janet
Nov. 27, 2002, 02:04 PM
The text of the ad could just be the reprinting of the statement from the USAEq. The one that ends:

"...and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. "

Ben and Me
Nov. 27, 2002, 02:04 PM
Does anyone else think that the large sum of money that Mr. Valliere/The Oxer Group spent running the ad would have been better spent on the animals he was trying to support?

Personally, I would almost be able to admire him if he did this quietly, instead of contributing only for his own personal gain.

"Well it's a marvelous night for a moondance" ~Van Morrison

Erin
Nov. 27, 2002, 02:52 PM
OK folks, couple of things here, in COTH's defense.

Coreene, on a quick skim through the ad policy you posted, it seems to me everything has to do with CONTENT, not with WHO is placing the ad (a point I tried to make earlier).

LOTS of people are "not in good standing with USAEq" at a given point in time. (Who were all those big-name people suspended for a month not so long ago?) People who are NOT talked about here in multi-page threads; people who advertise in COTH on a regular basis.

Certainly you all are welcome to your opinion of PV, and your opinion of the ad. But seriously, what kind of policy do you expect COTH to come up with? A background check for anyone who places an ad? No ads accepted from people who have felony convictions? Abuse convictions? Remember, PV was committed of mail fraud (I think... on a slow computer and I can't check), not of anything related to abuse. And what about people who aren't members of USAEq?

One other thing... for whoever said they thought a publication that promotes the horse shouldn't have taken that ad. I would bet every dollar I have that the COTH devoted more newsprint to the insurance fraud scandals than ANY other periodical, horsey or otherwise. I can say without a doubt that whether or not COTH accepted PV's ad had absolutely nothing to do with their opinion of him or his actions.

I don't know that I'll be able to get a response very quickly, seeing as it's a holiday weekend, but I'll see if I can get someone from the COTH's advertising department to hop on here and explain their policy and the decision to take the ad.

Ben and Me
Nov. 27, 2002, 02:59 PM
What is mail fraud?

"Well it's a marvelous night for a moondance" ~Van Morrison

SoEasy
Nov. 27, 2002, 03:09 PM
and the one most of the 'horse killers' were actually convicted of, besides insurance fraud.

They used the US Mail to arrange to defraud the insurance companies - the horses who were killed were mostly heavily insured, and their deaths were made to look 'natural' so that the owners could collect on the mortality insurance. (Except for the one who was not insured for colic due to past history. That one got a crow bar to the legs, courtesy of a loving owner.)

Coreene
Nov. 27, 2002, 03:11 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

dublin
Nov. 27, 2002, 03:37 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if he had played this same role in the murder for hire of a human being, that he could have been facing the same murder charges as the person who actually did the killing....

Lily
Nov. 27, 2002, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ben & Me:
Does anyone else think that the large sum of money that Mr. Valliere/The Oxer Group spent running the ad would have been better spent on the animals he was trying to support?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. And that was what a lot of us had said last year, when the first congratulatory ad was placed in the COTH, mentioning the 9/11 donations. Though there were many animal victims (as Erin mentioned earlier), I don't see any clearly defined long-term need for donations to that charity. So, perhaps PV's money would be better put to use at another organization. Or, maybe he's just mentioning his donations from a year ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I would almost be able to admire him if he did this quietly, instead of contributing only for his own personal gain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the purpose of the ad is to demonstrate PV's satisfying the conditions of his potential reinstatement- helping animals. (I don't have the exact language of his suspension terms in front of me, but that's the gist of it).

Erin
Nov. 27, 2002, 05:56 PM
Exactly Coreene... the COPY. Like the Holocaust-didn't-happen ad I mentioned earlier.

But have you ever heard of someone not being able to advertise their legal business, or advertise facts that are TRUE, just because people don't like them?

That's what this boils down to... people think PV is scum. Well, sure... easy to see why.

BUT... what a publication thinks of your character should have nothing to do with whether you get coverage if you do something newsworthy (in the case of PV's student), or whether you're allowed the same forum to promote your LEGAL business as any other trainer would be.

Understand that I'm NOT defending PV's actions or past in any way. But in the interest of fairness, unless an ad is promoting a fraud or something of that nature, I think a publication is obligated to accept it.

(Of course, I'm an editorial person, not an advertising person, so maybe I'm looking at this through rose-colored glasses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

War Admiral
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But have you ever heard of someone not being able to advertise their legal business, or advertise facts that are TRUE, just because people don't like them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether anybody *likes* PV or not is not at issue here. It's the fact that this man is *banned* by USAE for ten *years* and is clearly using the COTH adverts to demonstrate his alleged "reform". He is most certainly not trying to advertise his legal business, he's just trying to revise history a little bit and make himself look like a first-class "caring" professional.

(Hey! I've got a great idea: on the basis of that ad, maybe we can get him for mail fraud *again*... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif After all, we all got mailed it...)

But seriously: just so as not to single out one person, in all honesty I think COTH, as a magazine of supposed influence and integrity, should not accept ads from *any* of the persons convicted, at least until such time as USAE may lift the ban.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Fetlocks
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:22 PM
I don't fault COTH for the ad....no matter what we think of PV, *PV* did not place the ad, The Oxer Group did. Regardless of whether we think PV *is* The Oxer Group (he may well be...but that's not his name) there's no reason for COTH to deny The Oxer Group the privilege of taking out the ad.

I could understand stronger opinions if the ad had some how denied the convictions or horse killings....but if *someone* wants to pretend he's making a difference, IMO that doesn't reflect badly on COTH.

I could also understand more outrage if the ad appears in USA Eq magazine (the organization that banned him). But the truth is, no matter how closely we associate the two, COTH is *not* USA Eq.

Flash44
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:38 PM
Name of horse. Date of death.

Underneath, copy verbatim the AHSA ruling on the person who killed the horse.

thecowboyway
Nov. 27, 2002, 06:53 PM
Rosierre Plateau(or something like that)

Portia
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:27 PM
What Blossom said. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Coreene
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:41 PM
So that was in poor taste.

One we said no to because we found the copy to be offensive and another because it just SO did not belong in our publication.

If you read the outline of what they will or will not accept, it clearly outlines that the publisher can turn it down. No one is obligated to run anything, it is the choice of the individual.

We have also had some which ran after heated debates, because half the staff thought it vulgar, potentially libelous and because it did not belong in our publication. And the publisher decided to run it anyhow. Because at the end of the day, it was his choice.

So though I would never presume to tell anyone how to run their business, I was surprised that this ad was not turned down when they saw the ad copy.

just for kicks
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:52 PM
Yep, I would put in some money to see a nice BIG add, reminding people just what he and the others did to those poor animals.

I love .......... Cake

Beezer
Nov. 27, 2002, 07:52 PM
But isn't it a little late for you to be posting? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What, are you borrowing Willem's puter?

Proud member of the "Huh. I thought I'd fixed that" phase of baby green hunter ownership.

Coreene
Nov. 27, 2002, 08:08 PM
And so using the opportunity to finish a bit of work that I emailed to this computer.

Willem does not let me use his.

Coca-Cola
Nov. 27, 2002, 08:14 PM
On this day XXX years ago, Paul Valliere, Barney Ward, George Lindemann, Jr. et al, were convicted of charges stemming from the murder of the following horses:
{insert names of horses with dates of death and cause of death, i.e. electrocution, crow bar to the leg, etc.}

Let us never forget those noble horses who died for these men's sins.

Let us never forget the sins of these men, in the name of pure GREED.

Erin
Nov. 27, 2002, 08:46 PM
But Coreene, that's exactly my point. Everything you're talking about deals with an ad's content. Not who placed it, or whose services are being promoted.

And sure, the publisher can turn down any ad he wants. The BB rules (the legal mumbojumbo ones you have to agree to when you sign up here) also state that we can remove posts and/or posters for any or no reason whatsoever. And there are plenty of people we'd love to kick off just cuz we don't like 'em... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We have every right legally... but we don't do it because that's not what this forum is about.

IMHO, a journalistic publication shouldn't accept or turn down ads based on the character/history/whatever of the person placing them. But, like I said... ads ain't my thing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just trying to present the other side of the coin.

Jane
Nov. 27, 2002, 09:22 PM
Personally I don't think COTH can refuse these PV related ads, as long as the content of the ads aren't bogus or fictitious. As someone mentioned in an earlier post....where does one draw the line on banned USAE memners?

However, I think the memorial/reminder ad for the horses is a great idea; it gets right to the point without all the protests. Definitely count me in if you guys want to get one going.

Weatherford
Nov. 28, 2002, 01:54 AM
Didn't the COTH run (NOT ADS) a series of "Lest We Forget" photos of the horses that were killed??

Wouldn't surprise me if they did that again! Maybe we need to remind them to do it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Insurance scandals revisited....

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

armandh
Nov. 28, 2002, 03:54 AM
belongs to the owner of the press [publisher]
but BB have proved to be wonders at getting information around. [not all accurate]
but easy to drop in reference links.

War Admiral
Nov. 28, 2002, 06:04 AM
Ahhhhhhh I dunno, I just wish the judge (or the USAE) would have sentenced every last one of them to put in x years working at a rescue facility. It seems pretty pathetic that one of them is probably going to get away with buying his way out of the ban with advertising. But no real surprise I guess...

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Jobless Clique, Lawn Ornaments For Life Clique, Jigging Clique

Duffy
Nov. 28, 2002, 07:59 AM
Nice name /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and great idea!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I can justify anything!"

Coreene
Nov. 28, 2002, 11:48 AM
We turn down ads from advertisers as well, no matter what the content is, for various reasons.

One of the most basic explanations would be that you don't see CBS programs advertised on ABC, but you see cable programs advertised on other cable networks (even those without common ownership). Lots of times it boils down to how much you want the money, lots of times it's because a publisher will look at something and say "Well, if we don't publish Ad X, it will anger Advertisers A, B and R, who then may not advertise."

But no publisher is obligated or required to publish anything. There are no rules. Ads are run at the publisher's discretion. And each publisher runs his publication how he sees fit - I was just very, very surprised that COTH would have chosen to publish this one.

nickie0626
Jan. 4, 2003, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kryswyn:
...and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based _upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and _has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses._ _

Bingo! Mystery solved. The frightening thing is that 10 years will have passed in just four more years. He will be back.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"[/QUOTE

well, if you even care, I'm gald PV is allowed to apply for a reinstatement this year. He is a wonderful trianer and person, I mean come on we all make mistakes, and other trainers have done crimes on the same level as his and ended up w/ no punishment at all. All I can say is if you dont like him then dont train w/ him, but dont talk trash about him when you dont even know him, all you know is one tiny little franction of his life witch was a mistake, he'll even tell you himself, but you have know idea how he goes out of his way to help others and how much he really cares about what he does (but believe me, I do!). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JulieMontgomery
Jan. 4, 2003, 09:17 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

A "mistake"? What an odd word choice .....

SBT
Jan. 4, 2003, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickie0626:
He is a wonderful trianer and person, I mean come on we all make mistakes, and other trainers have done crimes on the same level as his and ended up w/ no punishment at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And tell me, does that make it okay?
"We all make mistakes." Sure we do...like eating pizza and nachos after 1 a.m. Killing a horse to defraud an insurance company is NOT a run-of-the-mill "mistake" that all people make at one point in their lives, it's a heinous crime. I could never be anywhere near PV; just knowing what he did would make my skin crawl. If you can overlook that, good for you. I know I couldn't. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

~Sara
*Charter member of the GM Fan Club*
*Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*

Erin
Jan. 4, 2003, 09:30 PM
People, we have beaten this subject TO DEATH. I am quite sure there is NOTHING new that can be added to this discussion.

I'm thinking we need to set a limit on the number of PV threads allowed. Revisiting this topic once a year should be plenty... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I'm closing this. It's an old thread anyway.