Do Equestrians who are Christian exist?

[Carlysue]

I don't want to start any flames at all with this question /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I understand that religion/spirituality can be a very sensitive topic, but I'm hoping no one takes offense with me making my inquiry /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm a Christian, and someone at my church asked me if there were any equestrians (famous or otherwise) who were Christians. I told him there are some, but I wasn't really sure if there were a great deal of them. So, I'm asking now...am I correct that there are not a lot of Christian equestrians? (and just cause curiosity got the cat....are there any well-known equestrians that you know are Christians?)

Thanks!

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[Carlysue]

I don't want to start any flames at all with this question /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I understand that religion/spirituality can be a very sensitive topic, but I'm hoping no one takes offense with me making my inquiry /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm a Christian, and someone at my church asked me if there were any equestrians (famous or otherwise) who were Christians. I told him there are some, but I wasn't really sure if there were a great deal of them. So, I'm asking now...am I correct that there are not a lot of Christian equestrians? (and just cause curiosity got the cat....are there any well-known equestrians that you know are Christians?)

Thanks!

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[Duffy]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I am a Christian, in that I believe in God, but I wouldn't call me religious at all. I do not feel any less Christian because I do not attend church on a regular basis. (I'm sure my father would beg to disagree, but that's a whole other subject! LOL) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

That's a christian religion but I am not famous /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Hephaistion]

Hi Carlysue,

I'm with Duffy on this one. I am not sure I understand what you are asking /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Perhaps you can be more specific in what you are looking for. Are you interested in the religious demographics of the equestrian world?

I have no doubt that their are many many christians in the horse world. But there are so many different ways to view Christianity, and as Duffy said, many different levels of personal belief, that I think this will be a hard question to answer directly.

I am curious though, why do you think that there aren't many Christians in the equestrian world? Personally I wouldn't think that religion has much to do with whether a person rides or not. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you want specifics, look at the French and Italian equestrian teams, obviously you can't know if the likes of Michel Robert or Alexandra Lederman are practicing religion or not, but those are two of the big Catholic European nations that are also strong in the equestrian sport.

[FatLilPony]

I'm not famous, but I'm very active in my church. I've got a lot of questions about God, but that dosen't make me any less a good person. but heck, I have a lot of friends that are athiests, and they too are fantsatic intellectual people! I love you all! But it does take a lot of riding time out!

"The strongest people are not those who always win, but those who stand back up when they fall."

[DarkenStormy]

If you are talking about Christian riding groups and things like that, then I believe that there are plenty of those around. Check places like Yahoogroups. I think there's a couple there.

I too consider myself a Christian, just not a church going one.

And, I'm not famous either!

[Snowbird]

Which sect of christianity is it that interests you? Are you speaking only of those from an organized christian sect that meets certain specifications? How long should they have been a christian for it to count?

What possible difference can it make in the large picture whether or not someone who wins at horse shows has been baptized as a catholic or a baptist?

If there is only one God he rides in the saddle with everyone, Gypsy, Atheist, Buddist, Islamic, Hebrew, Catholic orthodox and Catholic roman, and all the various Protestants sects. We are all related as the children of one Father. To my knowledge God doesn't play favorites.

I personally would fit into at least four of the above categories, if you had asked my son when he was young and naive he would tell you he was a Jewish Presbyterian, my mother is a born again Baptist Fundamentalist, I was baptized an Orthodox Catholic, confirmed as a Roman Catholic and married as a Hebrew and taught Sunday School in a Presbyterian Parish. So you figure out where I would belong.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jun. 04, 2001 at 04:43 PM.]

[ponyperson]

ETBW-I'm of the "catholic persuasion" also. I go to mass every sunday, and am involved in our youth group. However, I understand that it would be difficult to go to mass when you show on sunday, but perhaps If I am ever back on the big circuit again I can go to a mass during the week.

Jigga wha?

[mjh]

Yes there are plenty of Christians who ride. Some pretty famous ones. John Lyons would be one. We have several church going folks of a variety of churchs at our barn (none of us are famous...).

[Lexus]

one I can think of is the jockey Pat Day, even though he is not a H/J person he is very outspoken about his past and his relationship with God.

[Policy of Truth]

I do not think the original poster meant to turn this into a philosophy class and/or debate. She asked if there were any believers (Christians) who rode. She did NOT suggest that being Christian had any connection with ability...she just wanted to know if there were any Christian riders who were well-known.

No matter what you want to believe, some of us who identify ourselves as "Christian" know what we believe and we also know the difference between a true believer and a person who labels himor herself as a "Christian" for social reasons. This has NOTHING to do with amount of time being a Christian, nor does it have to do with going to church on a regular basis. God knows people's hearts.

Carlysue, I am a believer and I ride, but like many, I am not famous, and never plan to be!

I THINK Margie Goldstein Engle is, but I am not certain.

[Carlysue]

Wow....responses came fast!

I did leave my question kind of vague and general....sorry! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I guess I should explain the context of the conversation i had with my friend. He has grown up in the church and his commitment to God is very outwardly (and yes I understand that people can be very very committed and not have outward expressions) visible (for he reads his Bible a bunch, prays, he's heading to sminary in the fall to become a pastor). I believe he was asking me if there were any outwardly-committed Christian equestrians. I told him they probably exist, but I have never seen any myself in my own equestrian ventures. THat's why I asked the question; cause I really have no clue, and I was just making assumptions (and ya know what they say about assumptions /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). See, I've never heard anyone say they were a Christian not. I mean it's not something you usually talk about before heading in to do your jumper course /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

THis is how I took what my friend was saying. If you remember the Sydney Olympics when Laura Wilkinson won the 10 meter diving gold....well, she made some comments to reporters that she was only able to accomplish her goal because she "could do all things through CHrist who strengthens me " (Bible verse). Then, everyone knoew she was a Christian. I think my friend was asking if there was anyone like that in the equestrian world....someone very open in saying what they believe (maybe not through TV interviews, but maybe everyone in their barn or something knows that they're a Christian). I think that's what he meant.

I know my question could be read many many different ways because of the many varying views of Christianity and levels of belief.

I know this question really may not matter to anyone else. I mean Snowbird is right...whether a person is Catholic or Baptist really doesn't matter in the arena. I was just curious because my initial assumptions were kind of shallow.

And I hope I don't start a religious debate (for we all have differing opinions /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )...that's not what I intended at all. Just asking!

Thanks!

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[Carlysue]

Thanks for helping me clarify, PacificSolo /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'll be sure to tell my friend of the famous ones ya'll mentioned, and also that there are more "not famous and never plan to be" equestrians (like myself) who are also Christian.

Thanks for the responses!

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[JustJump]

I could see why, if religion is an important aspect of one's life, one might be curious about what impact involvement in horse sports would have on one's relationship with one's church and/or God. Certainly, an argument could be made that life in the big leagues is not conducive to involvement in formal religious activities on a regular basis, which could lead one to conclude that there is a decided lack of spirituality among those who participate at that level. On the other hand, life with animals necessitates following a relentless schedule based on the requirements of nature rather than man, and what other types of activities could come as close to intimately involving one's self with God's creations?

[Everythingbutwings]

The jockey, most definately. You can probably find out more about him from the http://horseracing.about.com site where they have a section just on jockeys and trainers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My wonderful friend and instructor has a beautiful quote on her website from an article on her farm in the Alexandria Gazette from years ago.

' "When I ride, I thank the Maker that this is where I can be" Lois Majewski '

[Black Market Radio]

I am Christian! I am a member of the LDS church and attend church almost every Sunday!

Queen Marine

[Lord Helpus]

In the 1980's there was that television evangalist who would solicit donations to enable him to buy more grand prix jumpers (and A/A horses for his young, beautiful girlfrined...). He would show pictures of the horses on his television hourly "prayer" show and talk about the ribbons they had won.

Sad to say, many people actually DID send in donations... Probably people who could ill afford it.....

Does HE count as a Christian?

[Portia]

Not an English rider, but from what I've seen of his publications, it seems that John Lyons is an openly practicing Christian.

Also, just fyi, they have a non-demoninational church service on the Sunday morning of Rolex every year. And I remember reading somewhere, I don't recall where, that there is a preacher who goes to some of the big H/J shows and has regular services for people on the circuit. I know there are travelling preachers who follow the western and rodeo circuits.

[ClipClop]

I am a Christian... and I'm sure there are many well known riders who are also, but they may be looked down on a little if they just sorta shout it out all the time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A good ride is one where you dismount voluntarily

[Policy of Truth]

PamM, I do not know the guy's heart, but as we all know, actions speak louder than words...is he a confessing Christian? Maybe. Is he being Christ-like in his actions? Certainly not!

It's really sad what the effects one person with high visability can do to knock an entire religion...I hope the people who sent their money in were hoodwinked, and not that naive to think that somehow they were helping foreign missions or something with that show horse!

When I lived in Wilmington, NC there was a group of riders called "Cowboys for Christ"...I think they raised money for missions doing competitive trail rides...I could be wrong...anyone else hear of this group?

[Merry]

the illustrious Dr. Gene Scott? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Many, many a time I competed against his sweetie whilst he sat in the grandstand "painting" /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif a work d'art /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , then solicited $$$ for his horses the following week on his "evangelical" show.

I am a Christian. I attend church fairly frequently, but I've come to terms with the belief that God bestowed a great passion in me for riding and being with horses, and He wouldn't hold it against me for missing church once in a while to ride in a medal class. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fernie fox]

Pacifsolo,I think there is quite an active "Cowboys for Christ"group here in Florida,I often hear of them having services at local rodeos and frolics that are running on Sundays,I like the idea,these events are very family oriented.
Our local Hunt has a blessing of the hounds at the opening hunt,it is really great to be astride a horse with hounds milling around and thanking god for all his blessings.It is amazing how well hounds and horses behave for this annual event.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ljo]

Of course not CarlySue.Equestrians are
all a bunch of yankee heathens /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Spunky]

Carla, yes they do exist. I find that the ones I like the best are the ones that don't let on . . . I figure they pray for me without telling me about it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One of my college friends in fact is such a person. Mostly we talk about horses or what's current in our lives or whatnot. She doesn't seem to hold it against me that I am a yankee heathen, LOL.

In fact she lives in Blythewood. I was visiting just last month. There are lots of nice barns in Blythewood, many are private, but there are a couple of H/J barns. Email me if you aren't getting enough feedback & I'll hook you up with her. That way, you can kill two birds with one stone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lisi]

i'm an episcopalian.

decided what I am!!!

Isn't the base of all religion a sense of morality???

My husband is Jewish(not practicing--mind you), and because our neighbors have been taking the beast to church with them--great fun and socialization (it's the church that I grew up in--I have my own oppinions as well), he seems to get uncomfortable with what she brings home. I told him to take her to the Synogogue... She'll find her way, but I want her to have as much exposure to as many types of religion as possible. Then it's her choice.

As for me--see my original statement...

Don't get stuck in the sludge if you're that confident in your ride!

[Everythingbutwings]

Is technically Jewish as well. Myself as non-attending Catholic is more familiar with his holidays and dietary laws, though. I take great delight in scolding him over his lobster/crab feasts and vats of pork barbecue.

"Christian" the way I take the word is "civilized; kind; kindly; gentle; beneficent" and a state of mind and attitude more than attendance in a particular house of worship. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Carlysue]

Hehe....I know all equestrians aren't Yankee heathens /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[RolexH]

I think this is a great question. I am a Christian equestrian. The funny thing is I haven't heard that many interviews from riders after big wins/rides. Maybe they want to thank God publicly, but they don't get the air time. Who knows.

I /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~Lisa~~

[tle]

Not sure I should dive into this discussion... but here goes.

Yes, John Lyons is a practicing christian (of what denomination, I haven't a clue). He has led the Sunday non-denom. service at Equine Affaire in the past.

Christianity (in whatever form) is probably the most leading religious following in the US.... thus I would venture to guess that you will have more Christian equestrians that other religious followers simply due to the mathematical probability. Whether it is made "public" or not... well, there are always those that will shout it from the rooftops and those who worship in private.

Now, none of this, as has already been mentioned, makes a hill of beans on your riding ability. Nor, IMHO, does it make a difference in your personality, compassion for your fellow man, passion for the sport, care you give your animals, or any other cotton-pickin' thing other than how you feel about yourself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Personally... well, let's just say that I was raised Catholic but no longer follow that (or any other Christian) dogma. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Of course I ain't famous... probably never will be... but don't care either. This is who I am.

[B.G.M. heidi]

Firstly, the proviso that I'm not a religious person - spiritual, perhaps, in the vaguest sense of the word, but otherwise dogmatically neutral - but my parents are avowed Christians.

I suppose if the analogy can be drawn with music/movie awards shows - I'm uncomfortable when musicians and actors thank god in their acceptance speeches and can't help but think, 'what, is god an academy member?'. I'd be equally uncomfortable if the winning rider from the Spruce Meadows Nortel Cup made a similarly religious acceptance speech.

I certainly don't believe that anyone should be ashamed of their religious faith but do believe that religion is such a personal matter that I can't help but wonder, why aren't we giving equal time to other faiths - what about Bhuddist, Jewish, Hindi or Muslim equestrians?

What I'm saying in a nutshell is that I'm uncomfortable with this thread.

[DocHF]

agree-being an active church member would take too much time away from my riding. A friend agonizes everytime she has a show, because she feels guilty about missing church for such a "secular" activity on a Sunday.
Raised to believe that Jesus was the son of God. That kind of defines Christian. The church teaches an excellent set of values which are good to raise kids and live by, when they are generously interpreted. Now as a scientist- believe that such a beautifully organized universe must have some higher power designing it. Don't have to question the Maker. Give thanks that horses are here. They must be divinely inspired. Worship in the rainforest or mountain or ocean cathedral every chance I get.
Blessed BE.

[tle]

heidi... actually, I have to agree with what you said (which is why most of my previous post was more factual than faith based). While I think the original poster did not mean to make people uncomfortable in ANY way... when people start talking about specific religions, some (especially those who belong to non-majority beliefs) tend to get uncomfortable. I mean, what would everyone think if the winning rider at the Olympics started their interviews with "Praise to Allah" or "I'd like to thank the Goddess for her support"?

Anyway, the only other thing I'd like to mention to heidi is off topic -- hey heidi... we may not have gotten far this year, but the Red Wings have won **2** Cups in MY lifetime. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

I'm really interested by this post. Because I am a Christian and would proclaim it from the highest mountain top or in the barn. Now, does that mean I "thump a Bible" at people? Nope. I even have a different persona when out here, just for fun, and I'm sure it isn't always be considered the best example of a Christian.

I do have something to say about the definition being bandied about out here, though. (Would you expect anything less from Velvet? I'm supposed to be opinionated. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

The definition of a Christian is not someone who does good works and is a good person. The definition is a person who BELIEVES that Jesus Christ is the son of God (God in human form) and that he walked the Earth and died on the cross for our sins. That is the definition. (John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life.)

With that said, I will add this. I was not a Christian for years, even though I was brought up in the church, my grandfather on one side was a pastor and on the other side was a lay minister. I fought with all of my Christian friends and when I was at a stable where the owner professed her faith constantly, I couldn't stand it and ridiculed her. Now that I have found my faith I find that there are other Christians who ride. It is funny how you don't know unless you ask. Most riders are very closed mouth about it and very reserved. Maybe that's why it's difficult to know.

All I can say is that when I first found my faith I had a hard time expressing it and felt that I was constantly failing at being a "good Christian" because of all the bad things in the horse world that I had accepted and partcipated in at one time--and I didn't want anyone to know. Now I know that no one of us is perfect and all we can do is try and set an example (yeah, like I always do a stellar job of that out here--I know, I know). I think a Christian attitude towards others is an ability to accept differences, a peace in your life that is given through a personal relationship with God and having the Holy Spirit within you, a humble way of walking in life and not coveting what other people have but instead just being happy/content everyday with what they have and can or cannot do in the world.

Okay, that's my two cents worth. Now, if you have a different belief, that is OKAY by me. If you are open to the message, I'll tell you about why I believe and what I believe. If not, I won't, but I will always let you know where I stand when it comes to issues that go against my beliefs.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tle--
I disagree with you......In my chrisitian life I have been happier, and when I am happy I ride better........without a christian life I would not have my caring personality, compassion and passion for riding and since love and care for my horses. If I did not have the love of God the understanding that I am loved and good things can happen to me I would not have my love for horses and the ability to work well with them.

[LaurieB]

"techinically Jewish" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I love that!

That's what Mr.B is too. Since I was brought up Catholic, we celebrate the Catholic holidays. His relatives are always asking me when we're going to start doing the Jewish stuff (like seders, etc.)I keep saying when Mr.B learns how. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Carlysue]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that indeed there are more Christian equestrians than I thought /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm glad I asked the question /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

[tle]

That's wonderful -- for you. I'm glad that you found something that makes you happy... that you can believe in.

But do you also disagree that spirituality/religion is a personal choice and every person has to choose for themselves what is right for them... what makes THEM happy? For some (like you) that is your faith in God and your Christian religious beliefs. For others it may be Buddism or Taoism or Muslim or Atheist or Agnostic or Druid or Celtic or Native American Shammanist or Wiccan beliefs. Or do you think that no one can be happy until they have embraced God (in a Christian definition)? I'm honestly asking... not flaming.

After rereading my post and yours, I think I need to amend this as I'm not sure if you were stating your point of view which disagrees with mine, or disagreeing with a statement I made about none of this making a hill of beans difference. For the former, see the paragraph above. For the later, what I meant was that based on this discussion (who is Christian and who isn't) that alone doesn't make a difference in teh person. What does make a difference is how that belief makes YOU feel... and if you are happier and it helps your riding, then great! But in and of itself, it doesn't matter (any more than being a woman or being black or hispanic or gay does). Hope that all makes sense.

[Everythingbutwings]

I would far rather be around a Buddist, Muslim, Jew or atheist whose behavior was christian towards others than to be around any one of any particular faith who felt that there way was the only way.

Good thing horses prefer that definition of christian as well, their god (s) very forgiving /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[LittleWitch]

I tried to stay out of this discussion but I can't help myself...

I am a Catholic turned agnostic turned atheist. I have always been fascinated by religion (both how it affects people on a personal level and how it has shaped history). I consider atheism my 'religion'. My code of morals is based on the fact that I don't think that any god exists. My morals are derived from self-accountabilty mixed with a respect for others.

Back to the topic at hand...I strongly dislike when people thank God when they accomplish something great (like winning an Olympic medal). I don't like this belief that if you are a good person/Christian/whatever that you will be rewarded in such an earthly way. This attitude that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people is very unsettling because it just isn't the way things work. It is just better to accept that things happen for no reason and to just make the most of the opportunities that present themselves.

I agree taht everyone has a right to choose what makes them happy. Whatever you believe is good....i think it is very important to believe in something!! In my 1st day school class [quaker term for sunday school] we visited many different churches including a wiccan and got to see how everyone has differences in their religion. I believe it is very important to embrace diversity and even if you don't agree with someone's ways, at least understand what they are coming from.

[Velvet]

I believe it is a very personal issue. I think one of the more interesting issues regarding faith is that it is just that...faith. You have a belief. Even atheists believe something...they believe that there isn't a God or higher power. For Christians we "know" deep down inside that it is right. We are sure. We are also assured, by God, and we gain even more assurance from the Bible, which we believe is the word of God given to us to guide and educate us.

Now, does that mean other people's feelings are less valid? Nope. I know that Cat Stevens went from a loose faith in Christianity to being a very devote Muslim and believes his faith is the only true way. Does that mean I won't like him as a person? Nope. We are taught to love everyone, no matter what their faith or what wrongs they have done in their life. We forgive, we look for the good in them that God is waiting to bring out in them. We hope, we pray for those we believe are not saved (those who don't follow our faith), and we love. Does that make us bad? No. Does that make us better? No, it just means we have accepted a gift from God, one we "know" he is offering to all--salvation and a personal relationship with Him. It is nothing we have done, it is all God's doing.

The gift is out there waiting for everyone....take it if you want it.

[Velvet]

But does that mean you would want to stop people from thanking God when they win? Would you want to make other people believe what you do?

(No flamage...just an honest couple of questions for curiosity's sake.)

[hobson]

in a piece the 700 Club show did on pet owners, which I saw a few years ago, a lot of us are in trouble. Pat defines people as "pet-centric" when they:
--spend large amounts of time with their pets (equestrians were included in this expose) that they could otherwise be spending with family or, presumably, watching the 700 Club.
--spend large amounts of their income on their pets (again, Pat DID include horses here)
--delay or decide against having children because their pets are more important
--treat their pets like members of the family
--let their dogs and cats sleep on the bed
--talk to their pets as though the pets were understanding and listening

Now, I bet a lot of us here would fit into Pat's definition of "pet-centric." But here's the bad news: Pat says that pet-centrism is a tool of Satan, and unless the pet-centric person sees the error of his or her ways and gets back on the correct path to Jesus and whatnot, well...you can imagine what the consequences are going to be. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I don't agree with that man!!!! Horses are magnificent creatures from God and relationships I've had with horses have been more meaningful than many people relationships I've had!

[RolexH]

okay my dad always said don't talk about religion or politics unless you prepared to raise a lot of comotion.....

Go Nader!!!!!! (hehehe) Just kidding /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~~Lisa~~

[tle]

hobson... well count me in the pet-centric. However, it makes it SOOO much easier when your personal religious beliefs are such that there is no satan (and Pat R. is questionable /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

velvet... the questions you posed to LittleWitch... can you answer the same ones, please? Also, what do you think (or what would you do when confronted iwth) someone who claims to be Christian but DOES do the "bible thumping", IS non-accepting of differences, etc? I'm really curious. I came across a website a while ago from some horrible "Christians" and honestly wonder what someone in your shoes (who seems to embrace the good in Christianity) thinks about people like this... or what you would do if you were suddenly confronted with someone bearing this message.

Here is the link... please be aware that this site is NOT for the faint of heart. Christians???? (http://www.godhatesfags.com) (click on the main logo then click where it talks about Matthew Shepard... on the right hand side of the page) /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sadly the phelps [link above] are from my home town and I have had to put up with their disgraceful picketing...I am almost in tears every time I pass them picketing.

Years ago my quaker church did an anti-picket with signs like "god loves everyone" right next to them...people would honk and put thumbs down to them and thumbs up to us!

Quaker churches are known for having many different types of people in congregations including openly gay people.

[LittleWitch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But does that mean you would want to stop people from thanking God when they win? Would you want to make other people believe what you do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly don't want to stop people from believing in whatever they want and saying what they feel.

I was saying that I, as an individual, do not like it when people thank God for accomplishments. That is in direct conflict with my personal beliefs. I, as an individual, feel that this attitude that God gave them the gold medal has broader implications...What did they guy who got last place do that was so bad that God didn't want to give him the gold medal?

[Sandy M]

Littlewitch, I guess I'm two steps along the way - Catholic/Agnostic - undecided. I do think it is sad that due to the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of this world, the term "a good Christian" has come, in some instances, to some people, to be a NEGATIVE comment.

As far as publicly "witnessing" one's Christianity when a public figure like a GP rider or John Lyons or whomever, I do fondly remember a quote from Dale Murphy, former Atlanta Braves baseball player, League MVP at one time, and a devout Mormon. When asked about his Christianity vis-a-vis his prowess at baseball, he replied, "I think God has greater things to be concerned about than my batting average."

[Canter]

Thank you Hobson for passing that along. I wasn't expecting a laugh when I opened this topic /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hobson]

tle, I did not visit the site, since I have a good idea of what it contains, but I share your confusion about the whole acceptance of differences thing.

Christian friends, it is my impression that most Christian sects do emphatically NOT accept the existence of beliefs that are counter to whichever of the one true ways to Jesus they happen to subscribe. Isn't that the point of having just one way to salvation? When one says, "I accept your non-Christian beliefs and think you are a lovely person, and I will pray for your hell-bound soul," this does not look like acceptance to me.

I just want to respond that I am a Quaker which is a branch of Christianity...but different since we have no communion, baptism etc therefore my views will be diff. than that of a typical Christian. I do have many christian friends at my school and some of them are not open minded at all and even racist which really bothers me.

[RolexH]

tle= There are lots of crazy people out there. The poeple from the web site are , IMO, some of them. What they say is wrong! The whole purpose of most religions are to know that we should love everyone. I don't think that you are being fair to use those people as the examples of christians. You and I know better, that isn't what the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc.. faith is for. There are "bad" people who wear Christan coats. There are good people who wear no religious coats. I think The intentions of this thread wasn't to begin bashing.
Anyway, What they said on that web page is disgusting. I am a christain and I would never ever feel that way. I don't judge people who don't believe in my exact beliefs. I had a very serious relationship (2 years) with an atheist, and believe it or not we didn't sit around and condem each other for being different. We were very happy.

There are all kinds of beautiful people out there: gay, lesbian, black, white, native indian, woman, man, child, and so on... I would be missing out on life if I didn't do my best to learn FROM each and every person that is different from myself. Even those tall skinny Irish girls... hahaha (Eqchick)
/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

~~Lisa~~

[Velvet]

With that said, I'll look at your other questions.

velvet... the questions you posed to LittleWitch... can you answer the same ones, please?

But does that mean you would want to stop people from thanking God when they win?
I'm assuming you mean would I stop people from thanking any other God or not thanking anyone. The answer is no. I would not.

Would you want to make other people believe what you do?
"Make" is the operative word here for me. No, I do not want to force anyone into anything. I ran into people who tried to force me to believe and people who threw their religious/Christian beliefs in front of me all the time. There is a difference. Those who put it on the line and were talking about it because it was a major part of their lives, something I have come to understand, and were the only Christians I was able to be around back when I wasn't one. In those cases I could argue with them a bit and they would just state the facts and not get involved with my anger. It was actually a pretty good example of how Christians are supposed to behave.

As for the ones who would yell in my face, well, it just got me more annoyed and I would yell back at them. What do I think of them now? I think there is a place for everyone in God's Kingdom and just because I was annoyed by them (read "seeing red" into that last statement) didn't mean they weren't sometimes reaching other people. Who knows? I certainly don't. I can't be that way and don't like being around it even though I consider myself to have a well rooted belief, but they obviously meet other people who are attracted to that approach.

You also raised the topic of "non-acceptance." I find this one very interesting. I have come to understand that it does apply, but only when it is something directly regarding "MY" life (not those I know). In those instances I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there are things I will not accept...things I would not partake in because they are not in a line with what I believe for myself. And, if another Christian was pursuing them, we are told to bring it to their attention. Not get emotionally charged about it, but just to point them back to the Word that they believe in. That's what we are told to do...anything more is often ego/earthly driven and not of God.

[pt]

but when I saw 2 posts by Hobson which I agreed with/enjoyed ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) I just had to --

(BTW, Hobson, if we're not careful, we could wind up on the same side of this discussion /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

As someone mentioned - what does it matter what faith anyone has or hasn't? IMO, each of us has some form of spiritual belief - even atheists who believe there is no outside greater force - and, like sex, it is each person's private and no-one's public business.

If Carlysue is looking for people who share her faith and are equestrians, obviously there are many. Just look around, and you'll find them.

I'm in agreement with whoever posted that public proclamation of faith in a secular setting is...errrr..appears to be....somewhat in poor taste. Sort of like proclaiming what position you prefer! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That applies to paying some minister who should know better to pray before a baseball game or various other public events - what's the deal? The winners are beloved of the Divine and the losers are evil sinners who are going to fry? Puh-leeze! Again, who cares if someone mutters a prayer before doing whatever if it makes him/her feel good, but what does the public praying do? BTW, I'm also not really in favor of raising the flag and singing The Star-Spangled Banner before these events either - what's the point? It's a sporting event, not a battle!

I'm sure there are Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Taoists, Hindus, Wiccans, Shamanists, Zoroastrians, Bahai's, agnostics and atheists who ride horses. And there's no reason we need to know who any of them are.

Except, we all know ONE face of Satan - P. Robertson and his ilk who spread hatred and fear in the name of Jesus.

JMHO, of course

[hobson]

pt, that sound you just heard was me falling off my chair. Darn! Not wearing my approved office helmet again! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DocHF]

<<You can bet that when the second coming does arrive, it will not be heralded by a TV evangelist with a bad haircut!>>

Thank you Mr. Pat Robertson of the 700 Club, for the chuckle of the day.

And thanks be to the maker, for horses. Even if the maker turns out to be just the general organizing principal of the universe or unified field theory.

[Velvet]

Well, I have something to say to Pat R. is that he must not have ever read Genesis. If he had he would have realized that we shared the Garden of Eden with them and that they all got along. None of them ate each other. They lived side by side, and we were put over them as stewards. So, if you are a Christian and you aren't worshiping them as a god or putting them before all of your other Christian priorities, you aren't doing anything that is non-Biblical. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

Do we get bonus points for all conversing so intelligently and decently about a topic which very easily could go bad?

I am very pleased to be part of this board and this discussion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tle]

Thank you Shareasmile. I often wonder what other people do when confronted with views like that in the name of something they believe in.

For whoever it was that said I was wrong to use them as examples... I wasn't. I wanted to know what other people thought of folk like that. They certainly aren't the kind of people that I think of when asked about Christianity.

As for the idea of thanking God for whatever... well, if that's what people believe, good for them. If they believe it is because they have on special socks or said the right words or made love to their S.O. or ate that special dinner... whatever they believe in is fine with me. As for the public proclamation of it... well, I wouldn't say it and I don't want something *I* don't believe in pushed on me... but at the same time, I tend not to say a whole lot simply because I think they can do what they want.

Prayer in public places is another thing entirely.

[Erin]

Everyone gets gold stars today. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm loving this discussion... although pesky deadlines mean Erin has to work today and can't jump in. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Policy of Truth]

Velvet,
You are so articulate! I agree with you 110% and I want to thank you for saying what I can't.

Also, Pat Robertson needs a good 10 classes in exegesis (interpretation of scripture). Horses were made by God for humankind to love and enjoy. If they were not, he would have said so!

[Kellybird]

I just looked at that site and I don't think I have ever been more disturbed. That's the kind of thing that could make a person cry. I feel horrible adding to their hit counter. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

*shudder*

That said, I believe that religion is one's personal choice. I completely agree with everything heidi and tle have said, and I too feel slightly uncomfortable when someone like, say, Eminem(!) thanks God for his Grammy and takes a moment for everyone watching to also thank God for helping him to get his Grammy.

Please.

If Eminem needed God to get him a Grammy, God needs a hobby. I'll admit, some of Eminem's stuff I enjoy, but most of it is homophobic and violent...and certainly not divinely inspired. Can you imagine if someone like....Marylin Manson won a Grammy, got onstage to accept it, and started thanking all his dead relatives or whatever his 'religion of the moment' is--what would people say? What would you say?

I personally can't picture Margie Goldstein accepting a trophy for a GP win, and being interviewed on ESPN--if we ever got ESPN coverage....--and taking a moment to thank her Lord and Savior, through whom all things are possible, Amen, yadda yadda... It would't happen. That's what I like about this sport. How many HOTY trophies are accepted with a speech beginning with a teary-eyed look to the ceiling, and a "Can I just have a second to thank God for the money and power to raise and train this imported warmblood?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
We can understand that sometimes it is our own ability and strength that lets us do something--and we don't have to lord that over others, the way many people lord their personal faiths over others. (not anyone here! just explaining) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OK, sorry, I really don't have a problem with people who express their religious beliefs. Really. I just get tired of hearing the theory that a "Christian" is more of a good person than a good person who has an undefined religion.

Whew, I'm done.
*But I'd just like to take a second for silent meditation and contemplation of suffering in this world and how acceptance of others can lead to inner peace and an end of desire, which leads to the end of suffering....*

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Policy of Truth]

I cannot begin to describe my feelings of rage towards the people who have the official website. I would give it out, but it is so painful that I doubt anyone would want to go there.

God does NOT hate "fags" as these people call them, and God is not ignoring what they have done and continue to do.

I went to the official web-site once and cried so much I haven't gone back since.

[Snowbird]

That was the reason for asking for a definition. There are Christian sects which I find to be much less than Christian and there are Hindus I find deeply sentitive and forgiving of everyone. There are Buddhists who are kind and gentle and good sportsman. I think God may have many names but there is only one God and we are all his children.

We would not have been given free choice if God wanted us all to be clones of each other because there was only one way to be a good person. I personally believe that Jesus was the first reformed rabbi. That he was a jew and he came for the jews and he wanted to teach the jews and welcomed the gentiles to join him.

Jesus was a circumsized Hebrew, he was a Rabbi and he had a Bar Mitzpha at 13, which is when a hebrew becomes a man and a member of his sect. There is some evidence that he studied in India and learned their philosophy, that he spent years in England.
I will not quarrel with those who believe what was written some 100's of years after, that were recollections of those who heard someone say what happened. They can have their interpretation if it makes them feel better. But, like you I object to the limitation of Christianity to those evangelists who are guilty of "pride" and "vanity" believing they have a personal relationship that makes them wiser or better than other people.

There are no passports to heaven, we will all be judged by our deeds and our innermost thoughts. Jesus said his father's house has many mansions. And, in the infinite wisdom of God we were all granted free will to believe those we found most credible. None of us are lesser for our beliefs and none of us are better for our beliefs, they are personal and private convictions.

[Velvet]

Can I just ask...isn't that what Jehovah's Witnesses believe? I seem to recall hearing that, back in my youth, from a friend who was one.

[Won2Keep]

I guess the phrase "Born Again" is sort of outdated and now it is just referred to as being a Christian. I have always considered myself a Christian, but I am not born again. In 7th grade, a friend's mother told me I was going to Heck, if I was not born again. I thought it was probably not her decision to make. Since then, I have been a little disillusioned by the born again sect and chose not to discuss my religious/spiritual beliefs.

However, I hope that God is my copilot as I leave the start box during the Cross County phase of an event. And I hope that God is not having more important things to do as Dale Murphy states when I don't see the distance to some huge solid jump. I doubt that I would thank God on TV for my equestrian sucess (and we all know that I probably will never get the chance) because my relationship with Him does not need to be openly discussed on mass media.

[Snowbird]

It's irrelevant and there is no reason to name any church or group of people. I grew up with an old television set where there was a preacher who told you to put your hands on the TV and you'd be cured. Well maybe it worked for some people, if so then they were better off.

My mother sent all her money to several groups who didn't worry at all if she had enough left over to eat. I didn't think that was very Christian of the groups and too Christian of my mother.

Greed, envy, jealousy, pride, power, vanity to me and for me only, are the test of the quality of any philosophy or faith. Think of it, Bob Jones called himself a Christian and he had followers who believed him all the way to Jonestown. Saints are few and far between.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Perhaps the right question would be if it is possible to be a good christian and ride for the ribbons and the money and the pride of a victory, instead of for the pure joy of an honest partnership between two of God's most glorious creatures.

I had a jehovah's witness co-worker and they didn't celebrate holidays including b-days...they way I understood it was that every day was a special day. She was a wonderful lady!!

[Velvet]

I guess I didn't see the problem in having something clarified. I was not going to hold you up for ridicule, quite the opposite, I just knew I had heard that information before in the support of another person's belief.

I find it interesting that many of the people who have a certain faith don't know anything about any of the others. I know I'm included. I have heard a bit about some other faiths and am always interested in learning what other people believe. It is also interesting hearing what others think I must believe because of the label "Christian." It is strange how we often misunderstand something so important to so many people as their faith.

(Oh, and Pacifisolo, thanks, but we both know it wasn't me alone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[Whip 'N Spurs]

I am Christian.. I haven't been going to church much lately, but I do read my bible just about every night and believe in God. At my old barn just about everyone was Christian. There's a whole barn dedicated to God in my area too..they have their own church near their riding facility that they own.I have heard some scary thing though about this barn.. I had a friend who was asked to join their cult /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Laura & Uno

[dogchushu]

Well, I do thank God for my accomplishments. Not that I do it publicly but I certainly do privately (this may be irrelevant because most likely I'll most likely never be on television accepting any kind of award anyway...) .

Now, before you flame me, please realize that I don't believe God somehow influenced my boss to give me a promotion, got into my brain and gave me the answers to a test, etc. Rather, I thank God for giving me strength to perservere in bad times when I thought I'd never reach my goals, for giving me support when I was the only one who thought my particular path was the right one, things like that.

Of course I don't think (and most Christians I know don't think) that good things only happen to good people, and bad things only happen to bad people. That's not the kind, merciful, loving God I believe in. Also, I don't believe people of other faiths are going to heck. Again, that's just not part of the loving God I believe in.

Now I can't speak to (or support) the likes of Eminem and similar ilk. I'm just saying, for me personally, I give God a lot of credit for helping me get through many challenges. And that's NOT a slam at anyone who doesn't believe or saying that they can't face and conquer equal or greater challenges. It's just, well, that's what works for me.

This may not be official doctrine of any church (I'm not really well versed in theology), but it's my personal belief system.

[B.G.M. heidi]

One of my favourites places on the planet is Ireland; when Hans was offered a job in Dublin two years ago, it seemed the opportunity to fulfill a life's dream.

After his meetings and their offer, we spent the following two weeks travelling through the country, much of it at Ballymaloe House in Cork, where each night, we'd convene for drinks with the waiting staff (all of whom were in their early 20's and just the smartest, loveliest people one could hope to meet), one of them, Ronan, took me aside on our last night and declared, "Heidi, you don't want to raise your children in a Catholic country". After much thought, and, frankly, seeing too many teenaged mothers, we concurred. So here we remain in Toronto - and yes, tle, we haven't won a Stanley Cup in my lifetime...we may have to wait for my reincarnation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Part of what I respond to when I'm in Ireland is a great sense of spiritualism - goodness, compassion, generosity; a rootedness and earthiness that so many Irish folk tend to possess. I don't, though, and can't, accept that, with many, religion and dogma blinds, embitters, and quells questions - and creates catastrophic conflicts.

[LMH]

But I am a practicing Christian as well-Lutheran to be exact. I attend church as often as I can when I am not showing so I don't feel so guilty skipping when I do /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

John Lyons is also the first one that came to my mind

Life is too short to dance with ugly men

[SpotsNChrome]

Can I have a gold.... Jewish star??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The last time I went to "Church" (yes Sandy, displaced, kicked out, booted Catholic. 13 years of parochial will do it!)was at the Expo, where John Lyons had a little service Sunday a.m. That was really neat. I came away reflected, replenished and refreshed.. it is a good religion when someone doesnt even try to inspire and does a great job of it, and doesnt even put any judgement on you and where you are with things. They just nurture and allow.

I think the horses (or all animals) are the coolest gifts we could ever receive. Too bad Pat R.

[hobson]

On the subject of the horse world, there is something in particular that disturbs me about the Christian faith.

The horse/horse show world is one of the few places in society where it is more or less safe to be an "out" gay person. At the same time, as we've discovered here, there are many in the horse world who identify as Christians.

But I can only think of a few Christian groups that do not condemn homosexuality. Sorry to say it folks, but the "God hates fags" line of thinking is NOT uncommon, and countless Christians believe this in varying degrees of enthusiasm, whether or not you accept their version of the faith as legitimately Christian (THEY certainly believe they're in Jesus' favor).

Every single one of my gay friends has had at least one encounter with vicious, violent Christians bent on carrying out the vengeance of God. How do the Christians in the BB here deal with this aspect of your theology? If you're Catholic, Baptist, fundamentalist protestant, or any one of many other sects, your God and your church officially revile any other approach to sexuality but the traditionally-sanctioned married heterosexual one. How do you carry this religious tenet into your encounters with gay trainers and fellow competitors?

Now, there's the "god hates the sin but loves the sinner" approach, but honestly, when I read the subtext of that statement it always means, "you repulse me and you'll burn in hell but I'm too scared/embarrassed/polite to say it so bluntly."

So Christian friends, how do you reconcile your religion with this aspect of the horse world (and of the world in general, I suppose)?

I LOVED Ireland--spent an extra month there after my post-graduate/work my-ass-off in Florida for my former trainer---to pay my way. Wonderful people there.

I'll repost, and given my mood after the day I've had, this is best. Why can't we all just get along??????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Isn't the base of all religion a sense of morality???

My husband is Jewish(not practicing--mind you), and because our neighbors have been taking the beast to church with them--great fun and socialization (it's the church that I grew up in--I have my own oppinions as well), he seems to get uncomfortable with what she brings home. I told him to take her to the Synogogue... She'll find her way, but I want her to have as much exposure to as many types of religion as possible. Then it's her choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Food for thought...

What happens to your remains when you are either buried, or cremated??? Don't ya think the ants will nibble out of that there urn???

I belive in a higher power, but from a biochemist's viewpoint (yes, I have several college degrees, and I shovel manure for a living), I don't actually visualize this "power" to be in human form...I shouldn't have posted, but I'm having a bad day, and need a realeas of some form---sorry!

Don't get stuck in the sludge if you're that confident in your ride!

[Flash44]

I went to Catholic schools from age 6 - college. In high school, we had a class on various other religions that was pretty intesive. What I brought was that most religions follow the "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" rule, or "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

What I've brought out of my education and life experiences is that you have to do the right thing every day all day. It doesn't matter how many times a month you go to church or whatever. You have to live it or you've missed the point.

[hobson]

A great thought, Flash. When I think of the major western confessional religions, I feel sad that they've gotten so junked up (IMHO) as their followers have tried to translate a moral code into a recipe for political action. I consider the liberation and freedom theology of Judaism, Islam's emphasis on equality and democracy, and the Christian values of forgiveness and selfless charity...all fine ideas which have gotten drowned out, diluted and dismembered by political and economic power struggles.

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

Well I suppose that I am atheist, in that I do not believe that God exists. Although I try with all of my energy to respect people who do believe in (a) god(s). I believe that when you die and are placed into the ground (if that is what you choose) that your body will (as you so eloquently put it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) get eaten by ants. I had someone ask me once, what I lived for, if I did not beleive in an afterlife. I found this rather perplexing if not disturbing, to think that one might live his or her life solely on a belief of something that may happen. My answer was, well I live life for life! If I am not happy now then I have wasted everything!! I understand that people believe in afterlife, and I totally respect that, but how many of you that beleive in Heaven or Hell, live your life solely in reflection of where you would like to be in the afterlife??

Also I found it interesting that at a IHSA show at a college in GA, on the Sunday morning of the show there is an hour break where everything stops in order to allow competitors to attend chapel if they so desire. Trying to be as respectful as possible, is there not a way that can be arranged so that a person who wishes to worship can do it at times during the show at which they are not competing, so as not to stop the entire show (which unfortunately makes the drive home a lot later for some of us!!)?

I specifically stated ants for the URNS!!!

Worms are for the caskets don't ya know???

Sorry to offend anyone, but I bartended through college (and a while after), and one of my golden rules was to never get into a discussion about politics or religion. Guess I'm just venting since I bit off my tongue back then... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't get stuck in the sludge if you're that confident in your ride!

I was raised a Christian. My family is not really the church-goer type, except on holidays like Easter and Christmas. I even went to an Episcopalian private school for six long years.

I am now athiest. It took a while for me to figure out my faith... I don't have a problem with Christianity, but my beliefs are based on scientifically proven facts. (Evolution, for example.) I believe the Bible was written by a man who wanted to teach valuable lessons (to Christians).

However, I find religion very interesting, and I LOVE to study it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What I really don't like is missionaries trying to convert people of other religions to their religion by preaching. That is just wrong. Don't get me wrong, expressing your beliefs is great, I have no problem with that.

I also have a question, and I'd like to hear your word. You always hear about people seeing apparitions and sights of God, "a voice from above", the virgin mary, etc. Is it only Christians that see these apparitions? I mean, you never hear about Buddhists witnessing an appearance of the virgin mary or whathaveyou. Or vice versa, Christians witnessing the appearance of Buddha or Muhammed. Why is it they only witness what they believe in?

-Fiero

[Chaser]

This is an interesting and civilised discussion.

I have never heard before that Jesus spent some time in England. What evidence is there for this?? Given that at the time the native British were painting themselves with woad and had no written literature I find it surprising that there could be evidence for this.

[Everythingbutwings]

But don't forget that, while the ancient residents of Britian were less than forward thinkers, the ruling Romans had hot baths, paved roads and many of the niceties of civilization in their midst. Ancient Londinium was founded by the Romans.

[Chaser]

The Romans didn't settle in Britannia until after Claudius' invasion of 43 AD. Julius Caesar came, saw and conquered in 55 BC and 54 BC and then went away again. The timings would seem to be wrong for Jesus to have been around during the Roman occupation. I'd still be interested in the source though.

I don't know if you get a British Channel 4 TV program "Time Team"? This is a TV program which is an "against the clock" archeological dig. They have three days in which to go to a site and try to find the answers to a particular question. One dig they carried out was at "Londinium". They tried to establish where the original Roman settlement was and how its boundaries changed as it transformed from a military fort into a centre for commerce. Quite fascinating.

However, the main thing I've learnt from this program is that all male archeologists must have a beard and/or long hair (unkempt)!!

[Policy of Truth]

Jesus' time is well accounted for ...in the MIDDLE EAST! He did not go to England nor did he go to India. One of the dangers that the Bible warns us about is adding and taking away from scripture.

If someone chooses to believe this line of thinking, so be it, but orthodox Christianity summarily rejects it.

And to whoever asked about visions, etc...I myself have never had a vision, so to speak. I believe that people have to know the Persons of the Holy Trinity in order to recognize the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, though. If you do not know the Father, how can you recognize him when he speaks through the Holy Spirit?

My experiences have been largely dreams...and pretty frightening, I might add! I have struggled with the concept of the death penalty since I was in my mid-teens. I prayed and asked God for wisdom in this matter, and I believe he gave me four dreams to speak to me...one I was electocuted, two I was hanged, three I was beheaded, and four, I was gassed. Very distubing nightmares, but it has sealed my beliefs with a kiss of wisdom that the death penalty is wrong. Now, I realize I am in the monority of many Christain denominations, but that is what I believe.

(And Snowbird, you are right, you were not the only one /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[tle]

Velvet -- I will fully admit to not knowing much in detail about other religions... at least not until recently (within the last year). I think part of the reason is that, for me, I was never comfortable in "my" religion (Catholic)... went through the motions of it all, but it never felt right so I didn't pay it much attention. Equated "not quite right" feeling with the "no religious" label. For others, I think they grow up in a certain religion, aren't exposed to others (for whatever reason), ARE perfectly comfortable with their beliefs, and thus never do any research.

As for the comment about missionaries... I don't really have a problem with them (my mother's side of the family is Mormon and I have cousins that have done missions for the church). I just look at it (now) as a way to learn about other religions... and possibly to inform people of mine. I know they are not going to convert me, but I can't be rude or nasty. They are doing what they believe is right... if I get nasty with them, isn't it the same as them getting nasty with me for something I believe in? Anyway, just make it well known that you have no problem in talking iwth them for X amount of time, but that you feel your beliefs are your beliefs and you hold as strong to them as they hold to their beliefs. Usually works. :-)

Hobson -- For me, I left the Catholic religion when I did not feel comfortable with the "rules". That was my solution. I have friends (and a fantastic trainer) who are openly gay and in openly gay relationships. I have friends who have had children outside of marriage. My brother is divorced and would like to remarry. None of this sits really well with the Catholic Church. It was by chance that I came across a belief structure that I felt I could relate to. In fact, for the most part, I've been following that structure for the better part of my life and just never knew it. The only part of Christianity I really have "issues" with would be those that are intollerable to differences (the "my way is the only way" ideals). Oh, and a few inconsistencies in the Bible. :-)

[Twister]

I find religion a fascinating subject! Both in the origins of a particular religion, how true believers handle themselves and how users have twisted those beliefs to fit their own prejudices.

For instance, the opening page of the linked website seemed a bit tame, and quoted scripture in their belief that homosexuality was wrong and they feel pity for Matthew Shepard. Once you click enter, however, the whole scene changes and it a hate-spewing vile thing that paints an ugly picture.

One thing I have long wondered about Christianity. Jesus, as far as I can tell, was a humble, self-effacing man whose one purpose seemed to be spreading the word of G-d. I wonder what he would think af a religion which emphasizes him and his words, and sometimes his mother, as much as, if not more than, the word of G-d?

[FatLilPony]

The only problem I find with Christians (myself included) is that we/they are often not as humble as we should be. Yes, preach the word of God, but do not shove it into a non-believer's face and tell them that they must believe it! I think that we have gotten so open about religion that it is not longer a matter which stays with you, in your home at your church, etc.But my one single solitary question is not that in which most people's question is-where did God come from? But my question is-will non-believers go to Heaven. If there is a heaven-which there is(I think) What happens to all of the fantastic people out there who simply don't believe in God? I mean, it's not fair to throw them into hell. There are so many fantastic people who are athiests and don't believe, but live by the 10 commandments subconsiously. Then will the christians go to heaven even if they have not prayed day in their life, and stael as well as murder? Just because they label themselves christains? Don't mean to start an argument-please take NO offense to anything stated /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's just been bothering me-is there a middle ground for good non-believers to go? I hope.

"The strongest people are not those who always win, but those who stand back up when they fall."

[tle]

FatlilPony... but remember that non-believers may not believe there is a heaven... or a hell. They believe what they believe. The last thing they may be concerned about is whether or not their soul is going to a place they don't even believe in. Some believe in reincarnation -- that once they leave this life they start anew, with new life lessons to learn (or old ones to relearn if they didn't "get it" the first time). There are also non-Christian versions of "heaven", just as there are non-Christian versions of "god". Could it all be the same place?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[pt]

Chaser - the early Britons had the Druids, who passed the history of their people down word-for-word, by memory, for centuries. Until the Romans destroyed them in England, Wales and Anglesey and later that nasty little Welshman, "Saint" Patrick, screwed up Ireland. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Then, sadly, the oral tradition was lost.

Not correcting your statement that we can't know if Jesus was in England, but just clarifying what seemed to be a view of the early Brits as tattooed savages. Oh -- forgot -- the tattooed savages are in the malls these days! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, there is also a tradition among some NA people that there was a visitation of a holy man of some sort to the east coast of America.

Speaking of Romans, I read somewhere that there is no actual account of a rabblerouser (would have been their view) called Jesus or Yeshua or any variation of the name in Judea, nor any crucifixion of same, in old Roman records. Seems a bit odd, given how anal the Romans were about keeping records. Does anyone know anything about this?

[tle]

FWIW, Druid, Celtic, and the like are still very much an alive and practiced religious followings.

[LittleWitch]

dogchushu said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now, before you flame me, please realize that I don't believe God somehow influenced my boss to give me a promotion, got into my brain and gave me the answers to a test, etc. Rather, I thank God for giving me strength to perservere in bad times when I thought I'd never reach my goals, for giving me support when I was the only one who thought my particular path was the right one, things like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking about this thread last night and I was going to come into work this morning and try to clarify my position. I was going to make the same distinction that you made (but you said it much better than I would have /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

I wouldn't object to someone thanking God for giving them strength to get through the hard times (though I think that in a TV interview that would be a little odd and too personal for my taste).

[joliemom]

Just to mention that not every Christian denominations damns gays to hell nor pounds their belief systems into the non-believers. I'm a proud member of the United Church of Christ (http://www.ucc.org), in particular an "open and affirming" congregation that welcomes openly gay/lesbian/bi/transgendered people. One of our ministers is openly lesbian. S'true.

So, just remember there are more than a few liberal Christians out there willing to accept and celebrate differences. Unfortunately, we don't own a broadcasting network nor are we known for extravagant hair-do's on our male preachers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Spunky]

Tle, I clicked on your link and got this message from my browser (I'm at work):

SmartFilter Control List Restriction
SmartFilter denied access to the URL http://www.godhatesfags.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It matches the category Hate speech content.

I certainly DON'T intend to visit the site from home. null

[pt]

yes, there are many people attempting to follow the ways of the Celtic Druids, but it's hard to find true info on those traditions since so much was lost.

I have a friend who is very into that aspect - if you have any input on locating the old traditions please give me your suggestions. Thanks!

[HeyYouNags]

As a member of the non-religious minority, I'm really glad to see other people describe themselves as atheists. My beliefs are as strong and real to me as are those of people who believe in a deity. I just don't, and can't make myself. I get extremely uncomfortable when prayer or religion is part of a public occasion, just as someone who identifies as Christian would be if asked to bow her head in a prayer to Allah. It feels disrespectful of others not to go along, and yet I'm being asked to actively participate in something contrary to my beliefs. And don't get me started on "faith-based initiatives", or the wavering separation of church and state! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Not believing in Heaven or Heck doesn't mean you have nothing to live for. It just means you have perhaps 70 or 80 years, or less, to make the most of. I find the idea of my body eventually turning into compost and feeding the earth very peaceful. Trying to imagine eternity gives me a headache. On the other hand, I have trouble staying up after 11 pm. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'll take that deep, dark, dreamless sleep anytime.

Hmm, I'm even a second or third generation non-believer. My father and grandparents were self-described agnostics. Poor Mom tried unsuccessfully to raise 3 christians, but only one took.

Trying to wind my ramblings down now, but - Christians interpret "dominion over animals" in a lot of different ways. There was the Pat R, anti-animal version. There are always people who bring the Bible into discussions of vegetarianism vs. meat eating, eg, God intended for us to eat animals. I have even seen it dragged into discussion of rodeo, along the lines of "rodeo is okay because God gave us dominion over animals, so it's okay to ride bulls." I guess this is my question - what do Christians think the Bible meant for man's relationship with animals to be?

[Snowbird]

Didn't Jesus say that "it would be harder for a rich man to get into heaven than to pass a camel throught the eye of a needle"?

So then is it sinful to have earned money and accumulated enough assets to be able to afford a horse and to compete in horse shows which also cause us to have pride and vanity?

There have been documentaries published regarding the missing years from the Bible of the life of Jesus before he began his trials. In the library records from India there are stories of a holy man named Jesus who was there and studied with the monks. The theory is that his uncle Joseph of Aremathia was a ship owner and that Jesus traveled to study during the years after his Bar Mitzpha until he became public.

These tales are documented in the works that have been done to identify the historical Jesus as compared to the Jesus which became a religious icon. Supposedly, in England there are stories about a holy man who lived there for several years, and might be believed to be Jesus since the time frame is appropriate.

I don't think these stories challenge the religions that follow Jesus at all. There was a wonderful book called the Passover Plot which outlines how it all might have happened. And another Book called the Holy Grail. Ideas are never evil, and understanding will not jeopardize anyone's faith in miracles.

As to the issue of the "gay", I personally don't like that title but it is only logical that if we have sexuality, it would have variations. I think the distain is really left over from the old concept where sex was a duty and an obligation of the marriage bed to procreate other human beings.

Now, that we recognize that sex is a pleasurable activity and do not use it just for making children it makes sense to me that sex can be practiced in lots of ways. I think if God intended for us to be static and frozen in time with ancient ideas he would not have given us our privilege of free choice. Shocking idea but doesn't it seem that perhaps the only reason for "marriage" anymore is to name the children so they don't have to be supported by the state and the state knows exactly who has to pay the bills.

As to whether "non-believers" go to heaven, if there is one? Well, I believe in a benevolent loving God who will welcome everyone who did not deliberately injure or damage or hurt anyone else.
If a Buddhist has practiced his religion in good faith which preaches good things, then what possible reason would God have to turn them away?

Besides, isn't there this place called purgatory, sort of a big waiting room for heaven. Now, I ask you another question? If someone was condemned to purgatory because they died before they went to confession and they ate meat on Friday when it was a sin; so when the church decided it wasn't a sin any more did all those thousands of souls get out of purgatory? If so where did they go? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Perhaps the question we should answer is it possible to be an equestrian and a good christian?

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jun. 06, 2001 at 01:15 PM.]

[Policy of Truth]

"...easier for a cammelto pass through the eye of a needle..." - Jesus was making a point through exageration (Hebrew form of humour)that if a man has earthly riches, it is hard to believe that he needs God...but a poor man has nothing, and stands to gain rather than lose from belief in God.

Animals - God created them, and put man in charge of their care...not to harm or hate. Yes, we believe that eating meat is not a sin. But I respect veggies' desire to not eat animal meat. The book of Daniel goes into detail about the benefits of a "meatless diet".

The search for the "historical Jesus" - I know where your info is comming from, and it does NOT match with Christian orthodoxy. In fact, most theologians (both liberal and conservative) will tell you it is a publicity stunt and that it is not very legit. Duke University is currently in process of trying to hire the main opponent to the "historical Jesus" mess...and Duke is NOT considered a conservative school!

Concept of works/behavior getting you into heaven as Christians know it - "The only way to come to the father is through me" - J.C. We summarily oppose any belief that removes Christ's purpose from this earth.

Any ANE (ancient near eastern) text will confirm the usage of crucifixion. This information goes largely undisputed...because there is too much evidence that it happened...talk with any ancient Earopean scholar, and even the atheists who oppose the idea of a God will tell you it was common practice. I would challenge any source that contradicts historical documents.

[tle]

pt -- the only thing I can suggest is to look into local pagan organizations as a starting spot. There are some wonderful pagan websites out there that might have some good information or a good Druid link. www.witchvox.com (http://www.witchvox.com) while wiccan in nature may lead to some other sites.

[DMK]

What a great thread...

And Hobson, I loved your post on Pat Robertson and pet-centric satanism, for lack of another term. Ordinarily I would have shrugged off his observations, but having just posted the "Spawn of Satan" thread, I may have to rethink my position /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Religion is such a personal thing, and I truly believe that even if one honors one's god only in one's heart, and not in a formal house of worship, that is still a beautiful thing. I think organized religion is not a bad thing, and certainly is a major comfort to many people and should not be discounted, but equally, I find it hypocritical of me to be part of the house of worship I was raised in (Catholicism) when I find some of the things that they preach as doctrine to be morally objectionable to me. Quite the quandary, eh?

Oh, and by the way, it is entirely possible that Margie Goldstein-Engle is jewish, not christian /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pt]

Thanks, tle - I'll pass the info along.

Re: crucifixion. No doubt it was used. Spartacus and the boys could attest to it! What was being questioned was that there doesn't seem to be any record of a crucifixion of a man called Jesus. This raises a lot of questions for me, as the basis of Christian doctrine hinges on the crucifixion and resurrection. Has anyone found actual documentation of this particular crucifixion?

Another question to throw into the hopper, since we're having such a lovely, civilized and interesting discussion - forget being equestrians and think about being equestriennes - how is it possible to reconcile being a woman and being a Christian, given the church's historical and present horrible attitude toward women?

[pt]

I would be interested in hearing about actual contemporary governmental/judicial records, not quotes from theological works written long after the event for the purpose of proving the legitimacy of the belief.

No offense.

[Trooper]

PT - the way that I reconcile it is that nowhere in the Christian Bible is there any explicit admonition to treat any class of citizens with less respect than any other (now I know there are some that believe that Paul and his worls were mysoginistic, but there are interpretations of his words that tend to mitigate some of the surface severity).

There are many religions in the world, who's practitioners twist the teachings to suit their own purposes - Christian words have been used to justify a great many things that truely Christian people find horrific and unacceptable. Slavery being one of the most obvious examples.

I think one point missing from the "Camel through the eye of the needle discussion" is that the issue was not a relative "need" for God, but of one's actions. We all need him/her to the same extent - but the rich were, and are, considered(as a stereotype of course) not humble enough to suborn their ego to the instructions that God provides believers. It was more likely that the poor, who were considered humble and penitant believers, would follow the teachings that would bring them to God.

[joliemom]

PT wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another question to throw into the hopper, since we're having such a lovely, civilized and interesting discussion - forget being equestrians and think about being equestriennes - how is it possible to reconcile
being a woman and being a Christian, given the church's historical and present horrible attitude toward women? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at the early Christian church, by which I mean the church predating the organized Catholic church, women were actually very powerful leaders, Lydia being a great example of an early business woman who sold purple dye. You'll also find a real feminist streak, say, in Gnosticism.

History tends to follow the victors, so Gnostic thought faded as Paul's (or Saul of Tarsus) teachings became more popular. And unfortunately, Paul seemed to have a real bias towards women in positions of authority. This bias continues to this day in both the Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist churches in that neither allows women priests nor preachers.

That said, in the past 30 years there has been progress for women within the church body, most denominations promote women in leadership areas, most ordain women, most see women as partners in marriage rather than as subserviant, most promote sufferage. Again, there are some deonominations who, (how to say this politely) haven't quite made that leap that women are equal to men.

For those really interested in this topic, read a few of Elaine Pagels works such as The Gnostic Gospels or The History of Satan. Pagels teaches religion at Princeton and is a recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship.

[Flash44]

Just because you own a horse and show doesn't mean you can't go to heaven!!! I think it refers to greed and lack of charity. People are going to accumulate wealth. But they should give back by charitable donations or through their actions, whether it be volunteering or just being kind and helpful in their daily activities.

I've had my ear to the ground since I need to make the choice between public and parochial schools soon for my son. I have yet to hear about any extreme violence at parochial schools, and violence is getting worse in the public schools in my area. Although I will concede that parochial schools are far from trouble free. But the parochial student body, as a whole, seems to be better behaved than the public student body.

Now calling the fire dept since I know I'm getting flamed...

[hobson]

pt, shall we start holding hands here?

The Catholic church's treatment of women was, among other issues, among the main reasons I decided to reject church membership. It was explained to me by the parish priests, way back in grade school, that girls could not aspire to be priests or altar boys (not that I wanted to be either, it was just the principle) because they were less holy and besides, Jesus only wanted men around him as disciples. "What a load of utter crap," was my thought as a wee third-grader. My attitude towards patriarchal religion all went downhill from there. To me, being a feminist and belonging to an organization like the Catholic church felt too much like being opposed to racism but belonging to a white supremacist group anyway.

As to seeking historical verification of religious stories, well, to me it's beside the point. It seems to me that this sort of mythology was/is an important and useful code, especially for pre-modern and pre-enlightenment civilization. Some of it is preposterous enough that it seems obvious that even pre-modern populations following the belief system understood very well the difference between myth and fact, and kept the two areas separate. Whether or not Demeter really did in fact cause the seasons to occur, or whether Mary really was a virgin when Jesus was born are less important than what those stories teach about the rythms and priorities of life.

By the same token, though, it would be an interesting research topic to explore what prompted the search for evidence that Jesus walked upon England's mountains green. Any poetry majors here? What was the line of thinking about this before Blake wrote his famous lines? I'd be interested in learning to what extent Blake's romanticization of the idea, along with the bleak stench of industrial-revolution-era London, influenced theologians to imagine England as a place Jesus would have been pleased with.

[This message was edited by hobson on Jun. 06, 2001 at 03:52 PM.]

[pt]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"As to seeking historical verification of religious stories, well, to me it's beside the point. It seems to me that this sort of mythology was/is an important and useful code, especially for pre-modern and pre-enlightenment civilization."

I agree - as long as the mythological nature of the stories is recognized. When believers start claiming that myth is fact, and not only acting upon but demanding that others act upon that belief, then I start going Hmmm...let's take a hard evidentiary look at the facts here. But I probably would have been a lawyer if women had been allowed to be lawyers in my pre-femlib youth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Some of it is preposterous enough that it seems obvious that even pre-modern populations following the belief system understood very well the difference between myth and fact, and kept the two areas separate." Oh, yeah! I agree with that statement, too. Even in cases where the early Hebrew tribes used myth as justification for land grabs and range wars. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Funny how some of the denizens of our supposedly more "advanced" societies have forgotten what supposedly "primitive" peoples understood.

I also think there is a clear line between what we deal with in reality and the allegorical language of spirituality.

I just kinda like to throw out questions like that once in a while. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for Joliemom's comments about progress for women in Christian churches. Hmmmmmm. Maybe. Maybe not. You won't have to prove it to me, because you won't find me in said churches to have it proved. Been there, done that, got my fingers burned, left the t-shirt behind & went home.

Isn't this fun!

And for those who DON'T believe in miracles, please note that we're on the 6th page of this conversation and Hobson & I have yet to exchange a harsh word! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[LittleWitch]

I went to a Catholic high school after years of attending public school. I hated it. It was during high school that I decided to reject catholicism. During my four years there I was exposed to so much hypocrisy and intolerance. The more I saw of the way people practiced catholicism the more I disliked it.

The strict adherence to strange rules seems more important than the spirit of the message. Many of the rules of the Catholic church are based on old interpretations of the bible, which are colored by the social environment that existed hundreds of years ago. Women are treated like second class citizens because that is how it was done hundreds of years ago, not because that is how God wanted it.

As an aside, I think that the reason that private schools appear safer than public schools is that private schools have the right to exclude people. If a student is too difficult they can just kick them out. The problem is not solved, it is just displaced.

[Portia]

This has been a wonderful discussion and has not degenerated, so there's no need for a diversionary tactic -- but a friend just sent this to me, and I thought it was particularly appropriate with this discussion. Just a little humour break, before going back to the serious discussion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In the beginning, God created the heaven and the Earth. And the Earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And Satan said, "It doesn't get any better than this."

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit," and God saw that it was good. And Satan said, "There goes the neighborhood."

And God said, "Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the Earth." And so God created man in his own image; male and female created He them. And God looked upon Man and Woman and saw that they were lean and fit. And Satan said, "I know how I can get back in this game."

And God populated the earth with broccoli and cauliflower and spinach, green and yellow vegetables of all kinds, so Man and Woman would live long and healthy lives. And Satan created Fast Food and brought forth the 99 cent double cheeseburger. And Satan said to Man, "Would you like fries with that?" And Man said, "Supersize them." And Man gained 5 pounds.

And God created the healthful yogurt, that Woman might keep her figure that Man found so fair. And Satan brought forth chocolate. And Woman gained 5 pounds.

And God said, "Try my crispy fresh salad." And Satan brought forth Ben and Jerry's. And Woman gained 10 pounds.

And God said, "I have sent thee heart-healthy vegetables and olive oil with which to cook them." And Satan brought forth chicken-fried steak so big it oozed off the platter. And Man gained 10 pounds and his cholesterol went through the roof.

And God brought forth running shoes and Man resolved to lose those extra pounds. And Satan brought forth cable TV with remote control so Man would not have to strain himself to change channels between ESPN and ESPN 2. And Man gained another 20 pounds. And God said, "You're running up the score, Devil!"

And God brought forth the potato, a vegetable naturally low in fat and brimming with nutrition. And Satan peeled off the healthful skin and sliced the starchy center into chips and deep-fat fried them. And he created sour cream dip also. And Man clutched his remote control and ate the potato chips swaddled in cholesterol. And Satan saw and said, "It is good."

And Man went into cardiac arrest. And God sighed and created quadruple bypass surgery. And Satan created HMO's....

to be continued.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[joliemom]

pt wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for Joliemom's comments about progress for women in Christian churches. Hmmmmmm. Maybe. Maybe not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well pt, I didn't say we'd achieved total equality. After nearly 2000 years, the score's not MEN - 21,374,894 WOMEN 21,374,894, more like MEN - 21,374,894 WOMEN - 12. Go team Women! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FWIW, I find Christian and church history to be fascinating topics, and am looking forward to changes that may occur this century, particularly papal politics and Catholic doctrine. We may yet see women in the pulpit and serving local parishes.

Can you tell I'm having a glass half full kinda day?

[hobson]

jolimom,

women in the pulpit??!! Catholic women will have to pry that particular concession out of John Paul II's cold dead hands. I suspect that his successor will, like him, be politically just slightly to the right of Attila the Hun.

[Snowbird]

In the ancient records it says that after Mary delivered Jesus she and Joseph went on to have more children. He was not an only child but there were I believe 12 children altogether including Jesus. Of all his brothers and sisters only one might have been a follower. Speculation is that John was actually his brother.

When I was fortunate enough to be in Nazareth waiting on the tourist line to see the church of the Annunciation I spoke to a guide there and asked if there were still descendents of Mary and Joseph left in Nazareth. He replied that he was not permitted to answer that question because he was employed by the Jesuits.

The book the Holy Grail is a documentary, it refers to recorded papers and records (physical evidence) from many sources that indicate the Templar Knights meetings and membership and that there is evidence that the Templars did take the gold from Solomon's Temple to save for the return of Jesus and hid it in the south of France. There has been a lot of research done and they believe they have identified the church but no one has found the gold.

DNA evidence has identified one of the missing Hebrew tribes in Ethiopia. There is hard evidence although they have never found the Arc of the Covenant, or Noah's ark. There is reason to believe that the Arc has been located but the paper work trying to excavate has prevented verification.

The Passover Plot is pure speculation. Supposedly, there are no Roman records because at the time they considered this a religious issue and not a political issue and so it didn't warrant being included in the regular records.

The cradle that was supposed to be used by Mary for Jesus is in a church in Rome. The site of the Last Supper is pure speculation since no one seems to know for sure where it was held.

My previous point was that it is not logical to be technically a fundamentalist regarding the words of the Testaments unless you are willing to be so literal with it all. I think the Book of Revelations was written 600 years after the journey of Jesus. No one has identified the author for sure. There are thousands of pages of the Bible which were deleted or rather not included that contradict many of the issues that have been accepted as gospel.

It was a group of zealots together meeting who decided which part of what record should be included in what is the King James version with which we are familiar. When I was in Rome I wanted to see the famous catacombs where Christianity was born. When we got there, there was a Benedictine Monk sitting and waiting to guide us. Time being short I wanted to make sure not to miss the primary sites. He said to me "No Christians down here! The catacombs were Jewish cemeteries."

I see nothing wrong with someone who chooses to take their religion on pure faith. It is frequently a needed resource to make life more acceptable. But, they should also be willing to say this is just my faith that it is so, and not condemn those who are not so inclined.

There have been experiments that prove at the instance of death 9 ounces of something leaves and makes the difference between a human being and a corpse, vis-a-vis the soul. There are tons of existentialist philosophers who have tried to deal with the mystery. And, if we are to believe Albert Einstein that energy can neither be created nor destroyed then that 9 ounces does go somewhere.

Followers are of course dedicated to their beliefs and they are entitled to enjoy their convictions, but they are not entitled to condemn others without being guilty as sinners themselves. I think it is the sin of pride and arrogance to believe you are a special one, that you have the key to the door and the only key to the door. And, anyone who disagrees is locked out!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Policy of Truth]

Portia,
you have made my day! Sometimes it is hard to laugh in the job I have because the childrens' stories are so harsh, but this is just funny! Thanks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[joliemom]

Hobson wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>women in the pulpit??!! Catholic women will have to pry that particular concession out of John Paul II's cold dead hands. I suspect that his successor will, like him, be politically just slightly to the right of Attila the Hun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, this Pope has served a long, long time. Next one could be like his predecessor and last, what, a few months.

I predict, and yes I'm wearing my patented Predicto-tron Helmet with the little spinny thing on top, that the church will have to make that change or a) they won't have enough people to fill the pulpit and/or b) their congregations, at least in the US, will continue to shrink as beliefs change.

[Robby Johnson]

To Carlysue:

Why does your friend want to know who is "outwardly Christian?" Do you think he may be just curious about whether or not there are role models in the equestrian sport?

I have found a lot of peace reconciling my childhood religion (Southern Baptist) over the years by actually becoming familiar with non-Christian religions. And I feel like I've become much more enlightened and educated about it. I guess I understand Jesus better by knowing more about Buddha, or Hindu gods. I call this Robby Religion. I seek no donations to keep the ministry alive; it changes daily! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My non-immediate family in Alabama were members of a small church that officially denounced Disney after Disney began publicly stating their gay-friendly corporate policies. The church pastor actually had members bring their Disney paraphenalia to the church parking lot and they burned it in a large vat, with a "sermon" mixed in.

I was horrified to learn of this. It literally crippled me for a few minutes when my mother told me, as I am a gay man.

Fortunately, my non-immediate family had seen the hypocrisy in all of this long before the "burning" occurred and moved to more tolerant churches. I like to think that my sexuality, and the love I feel for my family members - that they too feel for me - was stronger than sheer ignorance. In this case, I think my family were true Christians because they knew this was hysteria and not something Jesus would've endorsed.

What was so sad to me is that this pastor was doing this in blind, literal Old Testament faith. What was even more horrifying was that parents were allowing their children to be exposed to this sort of hate and ignorance. We blame many of today's screwed up children on lack of parenting. When we should also heap in and consider the abundance of really bad parenting. And guess whose teenage son appears to be homosexual? You guessed it. The preacher's.

I really understand what Snowbird is saying, and as a Christian I encourage everyone I know to forget that the Old Testament even exists and to live as close to the New Testament as they possibly can. Because that message, at its core, follows very closely the love, peacefulness and forgiveness that many other worldly religions teach.

John Lyons is the only horseman I can name who is rather vocal in his Christianity.

Robby

[Velvet]

Okay, for those of you who are reading some of these lists of supposed historical inaccuracies I have a website you might want to visit to get a better understanding of what some people have found that supports the New Testament history.

Bible History (http://www.biblehistory.net/Chap1.htm)

About sharing:

Do any of you go to the office, school, meet with friends and talk about horses to share your excitement and maybe get some of them to try riding because it's just so GREAT? Well, a lot of us Christians feel that way. We have found something fantastic and we believe it is the only way to Heaven, so we want to share it with everyone. We don't want to force anyone, we just are so excited about it we can hardly contain ourselves. We have FOUND something that fills that blackhole inside of us. The one we call the "God-sized hole" that nothing else has been able to fill. No shows, ribbons, paychecks or other relationships.

I'm not sure if that helps you understand, but it is not to condemn, it is to share and, in the greatest of hopes, to help others see what we have seen and found.

I guess I don't see where that is wrong. And when someone is up on a podium accepting an award and they thank God, they are not saying that He gave them the award, they are thanking Him for giving them life, hope, an ability to love beyond themselves and the talent to accomplish such a great feat. It is just like thanking your parents for having brought you into the world and supported you through all of life's struggles. Is it a bad thing to thank your parents, friends or coaches for supporting and loving you? They aren't saying or believing that others lost because of God, they are just saying that He has always been there to support them with His love. Also, for other believers it is often something that gives them inspiration and courage to go out in the world and tell others without fear of condemnation because this person did it and was not condemned.

[Velvet]

I will never apologize for my faith, as I'm sure most other people will never apologize for theirs (any faith--including atheists). With that said, when I look at the Bible and see that it says homosexual acts are a sin I can't go against that if I am to believe the entire Bible is true. If I consider it fallable, then God's promises that are listed in the Bible are not true.

NOW WAIT. Does this say that I consider people who are gay less than I am? Nope. All have sinned and all fall short of the grace of God. Without Him reaching out to us in grace, we would not be saved. Does that make us better? No, it just means we have recognized that we are weak and also commit sins daily (just look at all the ones that are in the Bible and you'll find one that probably fits...like not loving your neighbor, that person that gets your goat everytime) and that we bring them to God and know that we are forgiven. That sin (based on what the Bible says) is no greater than looking at someone lustfully, swearing, sleeping with someone you aren't married to or swiping a pencil from your office. So how can we sit in judgment? If we do, I'm sure God will find a way to point out that we have a plank in our eye and are yelling and jumping up and down about someone with a speck in theirs.

[This message was edited by Velvet on Jun. 06, 2001 at 06:15 PM.]

[Velvet]

Sorry about all the posts. Just trying to answer a few things individually so they don't get lost in one BIG message! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Velvet on Jun. 06, 2001 at 06:13 PM.]

[Velvet]

I've just been trying to answer questions out here that have been raised. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just clarify. I'll just never forget my times when I thought I was so enlightened because I loved Physics, Geology and the other sciences and how I looked down on all of those so called "Christians." I went so far as to study the Bible and some historical information so I could argue better with them. Then a funny thing happened along the way...I met God.

Now, for those of you who don't believe and think that we believers are following Christ because we need it to feel better about ourselves, that's fine. That is how you see it and nothing I can say will change your opinions. All I know is what I have been shown by God. All I know is that the evidence presented to me is irrefutable. As we all said in the beginning of this string, it is a very personal thing.

All I hope I've been able to accomplish out here is to clarify what I believe and what many other Christian's believe (not all of them). That's it in a nutshell.

I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone with what I have said. That was not the purpose. The purpose was to share...to impart...in a very honest and hopefully clear and caring way. Believe me, I don't judge you whatever you believe. I just have a faith that tells me to share what I have found and then let all of you decide what you want.

[This message was edited by Velvet on Jun. 06, 2001 at 06:18 PM.]

[FatLilPony]

can someone pweese answer my question!? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The strongest people are not those who always win, but those who stand back up when they fall."

[lillian]

As a person with a Bachelor's in history, I can tell you that "history" is not absolute truth. The first thing I was taught in college was, and I'm paraphrasing here, "history is as accurate as the memory of the man (sic) who is writing it."

[MsRidiculous]

Fiero... wow, I see that our beliefs are quite similar. What an interesting conversation we could have! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Amanda

[bronwyn]

this is an overwhelming thread for me. i would like to commend everyone for their dignified, witty, honest and insightful comments. i'm afraid my comments would necessarily be inciteful, so i will just suggest some reading people may find interesting. A History of God by Karen Armstrong- rational, scholarly, lucid and provocative account of the development of christianity, judiasm and islam. The Religions of Man by Houston Smith- comparative religion classic(may now be called the world's religions or something) also the essay Has Religion Contributed to Civilzation by Bertrand Russell. This is one of my favorite topics- i am hoping to start an after school enrichment program at my local elementary school sponsored by Armed Atheists For A Moral America /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif p.s.-my usual response when i am told that someone has been born again is that they should perhaps try for a third time /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -please no offense intended!!!!

something I was thinking about w/my Christian friends--and i love lots of them they are awesome people!!!! Examples...I am working at a camp this summer teaching riding and I have gotten a lot of "is it a christian camp?" I'm like no...[i don't tell most of them its mainly jewish children--which I'm fine with!] I'm going for the experience etc want a diverse variety of religions.

Also this is what I've found--I'm an english ed major and I WANT to work in a inner city school where I feel I can touch lives. A lot of my good chrisitian friends who aspire to be teachers want to work at private chrisitian schools and this is how they feel they are making a difference...teaching the kids to be like them when they grow up. I could NEVER do that. I would not get ANYTHING out of teaching at a religious school because I don't believe you are really helping others that way. That is some of my friends faults--they want to be helpful but they aren't really opening their eyes and minds......

Oops don't want to start a flame but I had been thinking about this a lot!

[hobson]

Trivia question: Who coined the phrase "God-shaped hole"?

Velvet, I can see where you're coming from, but gee, sticking to the old-testament notion that homosexuality is a sin to me is a LOT like saying that the color of someone's skin is sinful.

[dogchushu]

I'd always heard that the "eye of the needle" wasn't a sewing needle. Rather, that was a term for a small passage into a walled city that camels had to crawl through on their knees. So yes, it was very hard to get them through, but not impossible. Not sure if it's true, but I like that interpretation.

On animals and pets: When I was 4, my dog died. I was devastated, and my priest told me that dogs were special angels sent from God as gifts to let humans know how much God loved us. When we saw how much our dogs loved us, we'd see how much God loved us. Dogs didn't live as long as people because God would miss them too much and he wanted his special angels back. A neat story for a 4 year old. Nowadays, I certainly don't believe my dogs are "special angels" (especially when I catch them eating horse poo!) But I do feel horses and dogs are special gifts from God.

On homosexuality: actually, there are many churches that are accepting of homosexuality. Believe it or not, I've made more gay friends in church than in the horse world. I used to be very active in my episcopal church choir (until I moved), and the vast majority of men in the choir were gay (as was the choir director). I don't know the church's official doctrine, but on an individual parish basis, no one was condemned for his/her sexual preference.

On evolution: I believe in it. Many, if not most, Christians I know believe in it. Many folks do take the bible as literal truth. But others take it to be truth of the heart and soul... divinely inspired perhaps, but not meant to be taken literally.

Wow, sorry for the long post.

(PS: Thanks Littlewitch!)

[Policy of Truth]

Hobson....PULEEEZZEEEE read the New Testament book of Romans! If you want to argue about what is "wrong" with Christianity, please have your facts straight!

I appreciate you so much, Velvet. You really have a gift of sharing the message. I would like to em you sometime.

History is sometimes incorrect...I overstated my point, which is to say without the crucifixion, all orthodox Christianity falls apart. There are certain tenants of our faith that we hold sacred.

I wonder how many people on this board are accepting abd respectful of the Hindu belief that a cow is sacred?

I realize most people do not accept Christianity. That's their choice, but in my faith, there are consequences to rejecting the deity of the Holy Trinity. I have tried not to believe. Sometimes when I am down, I wonder where God is. But deep within my soul, I know that I could never turn my back on my Savior, Jesus Christ. I would die in his name, and that is not to make me look humble or honorable. It's just that I believe with all my heart, mind, body and soul that he is who he says he is, and I will never deny it. Like Velvet said, when a person finally knows Christ, they want to shout it from the rooftops! There is no Joy quite like it...riding my horse is a close second /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I get defensive, its because I am. I am defending my faith with every ounce of energy I can muster after a full day of counseling orphans who are (rightfully) very angry and hurt. I love my Lord, and I do not like people to make up what they think Christianity is. I am a sinner. I am saved through the grace of God by his son who died on the cross, and on the third day arose and assended to the right hand of the Father, who subsequently sent his Holy Spirit to live with humanity until Jesus' second comming...which BTW, NOBODY knows the time or day, so any fruitloop who tells you when and where it will happen has a lack of reading comprehension.

[Policy of Truth]

On evolution....God can do it how he wants, and so why could it not be in 6 days....or 6 billion years? Time is a relative term when discussing creation. Yes, I do believe God made it...and if he chose to do it in 6 days...ok....if 6 billion years...ok. It looks to me like they coincide. Just another thought.....

[DocHF]

if Jesus was gay?
He hung out with 12 or 13 other guys, most of whom were also not married, at a time when marriage was as much a part of the culture as a bar mitzvah.
The closest his eager prostitute friend, Mary Magdelene ever got, was washing his feet. Unless "annointing" means something they didn't teach me in bible class.
Although other tiny details of his life are recorded, no mention is ever made of a girlfriend, a wife, or even the story of temptations doesn't include girls as one, does it?

[hobson]

I stand corrected, pacificsolo...I should have said that I find the New Testament notion that homosexuality is a sin just like believing that the color of someone's skin is a sin. But I'm willing to accept the consequences of that.

Dr. Horsefeathers...if you haven't read it already, check out Gore Vidal's novel Live From Golgotha--in which he makes this very assumption. It's a fun read.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Fiero... wow, I see that our beliefs are quite similar. What an interesting conversation we could have! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Neat;-)

-Fiero
"Champagne to my real friends and real pain to my sham friends!"

[pt]

Lillian - I, too, love the study of history - it's the best detective story in the world! Two more thoughts which I was told about history:
- "History is an account of what didn't happen, told by those who weren't there."
- "History is written by the winners."

Velvet & Pacificsolo - I understand the feelings you describe, and the urge to tell everyone about them. No offense to you and certainly not aimed at this discussion which is a delight, but when I hear vocal Christians dragging religion into every possible and frequently inappropriate public forum, I just have to wonder that adults can't control themselves to behave fittingly in social situations. It goes back to my original post, that religion and sex are everyone's private and nobody's public business. That's my position anyway. But then, I don't do business with people who call my home in the evenings to tell me about goods and services when I haven't inquired, either. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Someone mentioned missionaries. Sorry, but IMO, the missionary period is one of the most shameful episodes in the history of the Christian church. All those people did was push their way into other cultures and attempt to destroy them. And sadly, the primary motivation for missionizing appears to have been greed for wealth and political power.

Of course, that would lead us to a discussion of how the most destructive element of any spiritual belief, including democracy, is the development of an established bureaucratic structure. And that's probably another 7 page thread...
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hobson - we're still in agreement. Scary, isn't it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[pt]

which was, Do equestrians who are Christians exist?

I still haven't quite understood the basis for such a question, but it seems clear that the answer is yes, and beyond that, that many of the equestrians on this board have thought deeply about spiritual matters and have a great deal of tolerance for each other's POV.

Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm dang proud of us all! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Velvet]

I believe the person the quote about a "god shaped hole" is most often attributed to is St. Augustine (400 AD??). /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Velvet]

Bronwyn, you said you wanted to do some work for a group called "Armed Atheists For A Moral America" and I just have one question for you--how do you judge morality without something (like religion) defining that code? Who decides what is and what is not morally correct if there is no One you have to answer to but yourself? How can there be a consensus and if one is reached, is it allowed to differ from community to community?

Just wondering how you see it interpreted. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Velvet]

What type of riding do you do? Are you an H/J rider?

(Sorry, everyone, about going off topic for a moment.)

[B.G.M. heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>how do you judge morality without something (like religion) defining that code? Who decides what is and what is not morally correct if there is no One you have to answer to but yourself? How can there be a consensus and if one is reached, is it allowed to differ from community to community? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's your standard Velvet, but we should accept that many do not feel the need to define their actions by a religious context. Perhaps our modern-day definition of morality is based on Judeo-Christian teachings, but I do like to believe that we all, religious and otherwise, know intuitively how best to conduct oneself and treat others. Many of us do not need to prescribe to any religion to understand that lying, cheating, and physical violence is wrong. And as others have pointed out, many other individuals and groups have, in fact, acted zealously and attrociously, believing themselves 'agents of God'.

I'm also somewhat uncomfortable with your implicit assumption that those who live their life without religion are somehow wrong and misguided.

[Portia]

This is an interesting discussion, with some very thoughtful comments by many different folks. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It was a major shock to the system for me 15 years ago when I moved from So. Cal. to the middle of the Bible Belt. I met a lot more evangelical/fundamentalist/born again Christians here in a few months than in the first 28 years of my life. I remember visiting the local large Presbyterian church for a service one Sunday, and being shocked when some members dropped by my apartment unannounced a couple of weeks later to talk to me about the church -- Presbyterians in California just don't do things like that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That was when I knew I was in a whole new world.

The thing is, I've now got a lot of friends who practice their religion faithfully (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Budhist, whatever) and I no longer think twice about it. A good friend is a Baptist deacon. Believe me if you had told me when I was a Theatre major in San Diego that I'd end up close friends with a Baptist deacon, I would have told you it's past time you put down the Jack Daniels. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Being of the personal view that God could not be so cruel as to cast out souls who lived their lives devoutly, generously, and with kindness simply because they followed a faith other than fundamentalist Christianity, I don't agree with some of the key beliefs of my fundamentalist Christian friends. However, we've managed to have many discussions over the years that I hope were interesting and educational for both sides. If afterwards they feel the need to pray for me, well, I figure it can't hurt! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Velvet]

I was asking where that moral code comes from if you don't have that as the basis. Where do you get your sense of right and wrong? I didn't see that I was implying they were wrong, I was asking how it would be defined without faith.

[LittleWitch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>how do you judge morality without something (like religion) defining that code? Who decides what is and what is not morally correct if there is no One you have to answer to but yourself? How can there be a consensus and if one is reached, is it allowed to differ from community to community?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even people who believe in the same god have not reached a consensus on what is morally correct. Moral standards differ from one Christian communitiy to another.

As an atheist, my moral standards are not based on someone telling me what is right or wrong. I don't behave a certain way because I think that Someone is watching me. I behave the way I do because I know that I am soley responsible for my actions. I am responsible for how my actions affect others.

[B.G.M. heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I didn't see that I was implying they were wrong, I was asking how it would be defined without faith <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The very question implies that morality, self-defined, without a religious context, is impossible. That's your opinion; my, differing opinion, was posted earlier on page 7.

[hobson]

Where do we find a moral code in the absence of religion? That's what the Enlightenment was for: the intial development of contemporary ideas of democracy, equality, liberty, and community.

Velvet, I can't quite imagine Augustine turning a phrase quite like "god-shaped hole"...it seems to have first been expressed by Sartre. I'm curious - why do you suppose this phrase is used by people as a tool for explaining religious beliefs? Because it was prominently used in Sartre's argument that all enlightened individuals have a duty to reject notions of deity, I am always surprised to hear it used this way. Was it a conscious cooptation, just a random adoption of a jazzy phrase, or what?

[HeyYouNags]

(Darn - wrote a long post, and Infopop ate it!)

My non-religious moral code says to do the right thing just because it's the right thing, not because a higher power will otherwise crush me like a bug (unless my employers count as a higher power!) I believe basic "morals" are things that favor our survival as a species - perhaps that's why many different religions share similar moral codes. Violence, murder, even widespread laziness and selfishness wouldn't bode well for survival of the human race. So I don't live as Jesus would, I live the way I think we all should live. (See, now you can ask yourself, "What Would HeyYouNags Do?" Be sure to buy the bumper sticker too.)

Now, can we discuss Armed Atheists again??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Goodness, aren't people scared enough of Atheists, now you have to go telling them we've got guns???? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Snowbird]

As a society evolves it learns what works for a better community and what doesn't work. The moral code also includes simple things like "what is good manners" and "what is fair".

These codes change in different societies. Some social structure is communal, that is the children are everyone's and everyone benefited from the hunt. Work was allocated based on ability for the benefit of the group and not the individual.

I find that the opinions here about the interpretation of the "camel" analogy are excessively prejudiced against the very code of hard work, improvement of conditions and the old American idea that you were supposed to make sure your children had a better life than you did.

Socially we are supposed to save money and accumulate assets, but you're saying that Jesus believed that it was impossible for a successful person (rich man) to get into heaven. He has to be required to give away his assets to get into heaven. That is in conflict with all those who pray to God to give them success and assets for the benefit of their family. Or, even a a blue ribbon by asking that the horse be really good today.

I also think there are some phrases like "judge not, lest you be judged". Well how does that match up with a prejudice against being homosexual. That person was created by God too, and is being judged not by God but by religious conviction.

[Policy of Truth]

Velvet..I'm h/j....hoping to eventually get the brass overies to do just jumpers!

As far as the "God-shaped hole" discussion, I do not know who originated it, but who cares? It's an expression to give shape to a concept not easily explained.

If you want to talk symantics, lets talk about the phrases "chipping", "ate one", "daisy cutter", "collection", etc....and then lets go over to Ibonics and discuss "phat", "white toast", "gettin' down wit dat", etc...OH! and then lets look at the fact that the Democratic party USED to be the conservatives while the Republican party USED to be liberal....

Sometimes words are utilized in different ways and change over time...so what is the problem with Velvet using the phrase, "God-shaped hole"? Why are you allowing that to offend you? It explains a concept she wanted to discuss. Isn't that ok?

[Policy of Truth]

Snowbird, Who on this BB said that the Camel analogy was interpreted to mean that people who are wealthy cannot get into heaven? Maybe I missed something.

It is an ANALOGY to explain that if someone has all they percieve that they need, they MIGHT not believe they need God. God blessed MANY biblical characters with riches.

Just out of curiosity, are there any ancient civilizations that any people on this BB would call "moral"?

[Hephaistion]

Well said Heidi. I had caught the same reference in Velvet's post that you did. You do not need faith to have morals.

IMO, religion and morality do not go hand in hand. My family never went to church, few of my friends went to church, but I still know that one should not kill, cheat, lie etc. Why? I think Robby touched on that one - my parents were my guiding hands, they set an example that we all followed.

Obviously, my complete views of right and wrong are not the same as everyone, but I'd gather that the most important moral issues (i.e. taking a life) hold the same for most of us.

I'd say that many morals are just pure common sense really! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[hobson]

Whoa, pacificsolo! No need to attack here! Reading back on my posts, I did not use the words "wrong" or even "offense" when discussing the god-shaped hole phrase. As I indicated, this is an item of CURIOSITY.

I mean, come on - Christians using parts of an argument AGAINST belief in god to describe how they came to their beliefs? How could anyone not want to know more about why this occurs? What is wrong with asking someone who is clearly secure and happy in her faith to tell more about why she chooses the words she does to describe it?

[Snowbird]

No doubt an assumption but never the less contraindicates the path taken by some of the television evangelists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think one point missing from the "Camel through the eye of the needle discussion" is that the issue was not a relative "need" for God, but of one's actions. We all need him/her to the same extent - but the rich were, and are,
considered(as a stereotype of course) not humble enough to suborn their ego to the instructions that God provides believers. It was more likely that the poor, who were considered humble and penitant believers, would follow the teachings that would bring them to God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally disagree, I think that if you have accumulated worldly wealth and have everything you need, it would be easier to believe in God and thank him for his blessings. You'd be grateful for the help to have been able to keep your family safe and comfortable. I think you can easily be humble and acknowledge that you had a lot of help even on a full tummy.

While if you are homeless and hungry and cold and maybe with sick kids, I think you might be pretty angry with God for adandoning you. I see no logical reason why a poor person would find it easier to follow God. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Policy of Truth]

Hobson, I was not attacking you, but rather the concept that a phrase cannot hold two separate meanings. I apologize if that was what I sounded like.

Remember folks, the meaning of meaning resides within the person who vocalizes it. For many Christians, the phrase "God-shaped hole" is a phrase that helps to explain that inner void that many of us feel which then leads us to explore further.

What I was attempting (and evidently failed miserably) to say is that no matter where and why the phrase originated, it still has meaning for many Christians. Scripture tells us what man intends for evil, God can use for good. That's how I approach a subject such as this.

Many people have discovered the love and sacrafice of Christ through a desire to disprove either his existance/meaning/deity.

For anyone who does not want to be challenged, do NOT ever read C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity". Many atheists and non-believers have found Christ through the reading of this taxing, yet exceptional book. It was one of the sources that lead me back to Christ when I strayed and contemplated other ideas and religions. A wonderful work of literature as well.

[Portia]

This is not to diminish the importance of anyone's religious beliefs or to lessen the significance of faith in history and in the lives of individuals. It is to try to respond to Velvet's question about whether a society without religious faith can be a "moral" society.

From an historical and purely practical point of view, what we call "morals" can virtually all be traced to concerns for individual self-preservation and societal needs.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a religious credo, but it is also necessary to a functioning society. You don't want to be killed; therefore, you should not kill others. You do not want your possessions taken, so you should not take others' possessions. You do not want your female relatives sexually assaulted, therefore you should not sexually assault other females. Be charitable, kind, and generous to others, because you never know when you may be in the position of needing help. Quid pro quo, as it were.

Most dietary restrictions which became part of religious law arise out of practical concerns. Why no meat on Friday? Because they slaughtered the cows on Saturday and by Friday, without refrigeration, is was going to probably make you sick. Why no pork for Jews? Because failing to cook it throughouly could cause serious illness. Without understanding the scientific reasons for these cause and effect situations, the ancients did figure it out and declare dietary restrictions as rules of self-preservation.

Other elements of "morals," such as not being sexually promiscuous, also arise from considerations of social order and property management and preservation. The rule arose that women should not be promiscuous because (a) they might become pregnant without a man to support them and place a burden on society, or (b) they might become pregnant and the husband would not know whether the child was his, and therefore could not guarantee both the continuation of his bloodlines and the proper succession of his property. It's no coincidence that men have historically had far fewer strictures on their sexual activities than have women.

Historically, religious faith has played a huge role in societal cohesion and advancement. It places pressure on individuals to conform to societal norms and abide by these rules of self-preservation. But is religious faith a prerequisite to a "moral" life? I guess we all have our own ideas on that one.

[jl]

Jumping in awfully late, I know.
However, I am of the belief that we are very very very small.
Finite.
God is very very very big.
Infinite.
Any attempt for the finite to know the infinite must be, by definition, limited.

Our very human interpretation of the universe boiled down to something we can make sense of.
Religion is part of the picture but NOT the entire picture.

[pt]

responding to Pacificsolo's question as to whether any ancient societies could be considered moral,the answer is YES, of course.

Just a few examples:
Celtic society
Norse society
Babylon under Hammurabi - let's not forget that the Code of Hammurabi is considered a huge step forward in the codification of law.
Athens
Sparta
Egypt - depending on when in their long civilization (longer than the Christian Era has yet lasted) you look
China
the Iroquois Confederation
the Southern Confederation of the Five Civilized Tribes
and certainly not least..
the Roman Republic

Morality is not the exclusive province of one belief structure but, as Portia points out, the distilled knowledge of what makes a society work. It's no accident that most societies have the same basic morals.

[Kellybird]

I cannot deal with missionaries.
I am happy to see a poor, native tribe, etc. being helped by supposedly well-meaning people...but when those people atart using the "convert or we don't help you anymore while we take your land" approach--that upsets me. It's squelching another culture, something that should be preserved, not translated into English and fed McDonald's fries while wearing Gap jeans. Let people be as they are.

I get upset when people ask "where do atheists get their morals?" [this was asked last year in English, and it took all my willpower to not smack the girl who questioned /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ]
Although I may not believe in any organized religion, or worship the same way you do, it does not mean that I run rampant through the streets, killing, stealing, and in general making a mess of things. You don't take everything you read in the Bible/Koran/Eightfold path and put it right into your 'moral code bank'...just as you get your morals from your faith-based beliefs and values, I get my morals and values from my own personal views. I am happy for you to keep your religion--if it makes you a happier, more fulfilled, internally secure person, then more power to you. Please don't tell me that I'm going to hell just because I don't worship the same things in the same way. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your God is not the only one who thinks killing is wrong.....

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KBird

[Beezer]

Wow. I swore I wasn't even going to open this thread and then ... what an amazing discussion is going on!

Everyone, as we seem to have "proven," comes to their beliefs their own way. Merry and I, despite being sisters and having been raised in exactly the same environment, have dissimilar views on religion and, yes, God. She firmly and unequivocally believes; I'm not to that point.

Sometimes, as I gaze at a perfectly beautiful blue sky with puffy clouds; or stare at an incredibly beautiful horse; or get a warm feeling of peace as I think about family and friends (and yes, Pat Robertson, I include my animals in that count /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) who have passed and I wonder if they are still "around" and are OK ... well, those times I think, "Hm. Maybe."

But then I think about the orphans PacificSolo works with, or the kids who exist in crack houses, the horrible wars around the world and the famines and blights ... well, those times, my friends, I admit I wonder what kind of God would allow that to happen. I know my Christian friends and family would say that those are tests or that people like PacificSolo are put on this Earth to solve those problems, but there are so few and the woes are so many.

I also don't "buy into" what I was taught in Bible class as a kid: That we humans here on Earth are the only ones in the universe. I look up at night and see all those stars and planets and other worlds and think, "Naaaaaaw. We ain't alone."

So ... I honestly don't know. I willingly admit that I have rejected much of my Baptist upbringing; if there IS a God, he's not the judgmental, harsh one I learned about. And, frankly, if he is, then I'm not sure I *want* to know him. A cynical part of me says that much of religion is merely a way to make ourselves feel "better" about our mortality; if there is something else, something better, then dying can't be all that bad. (That's a theory I'd prefer not to test for a while, thank you very much.)

I admire people who have already figured it out for themselves ... whether they choose to believe or not. I have a more difficult time with people who try to foist that decision -- again, whether they believe or not -- on other people.

Sigh. Sorry for such a long post. But you folks have provoked some serious thoughts for everyone.

[Policy of Truth]

Beezer, I am interested in your comments about being taught that we are the only ones in the universe being taught in Sunday School class.

My grandfather has always said we'd be foolish and arrogant to believe we are "alone" in the universe, and I admit that I agree. Whether I'll ever meet a person from another world, I do not know, but I suspect they are out there.

I appreciate your comments regarding my current job with the orphanage. The way Christian orthodoxy understands the mahem of this world is to understand it through original sin...that is, that humans are born sinners and have to be willing to change their hearts (we believe we are transformed through the blood of Christ). The popular novel "Lord of the Flies" deals in-depth with this controversial concept. But it does help a lot of us understand that if left to our "id" most of us would be out of control.

I do not hold the the belief as one poster stated that good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people. When it rains, we all get wet, no matter which side of the fence we stand on. In fact, a Christian author (can't recall name) wrote a book titled "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" which was about those unexplainables. It is a good read, and several of my clients, Christian and not, really were helped by it. When my grandmother died of cancer I asked God "why" over and over again. I know death is a part of the cycle, but I didn't like that my grandmother had to die so soon, and in so much pain (pancreatic cancer). It wasn't fair and she didn't deserve it. But, I know for myself that I believe cancer is not of God but a result of a chain of events due to Original Sin. I believe God is absolutely good and that Satan (yes, I do believe in his existance as well...without the Ying, where's the Yang?) is absoltely evil. I guess it probably isn't something I can explain in a nutshell. I just know deep down that my Lord would never give me anything I cannot handle.

Sorry so long!

[Everythingbutwings]

Religion (all types) to me are mankind's way of explaining existence and recording history. Civilizations and Culture evolved out of the human curiosity and ability to learn.

A person's faith in a particular belief can help them to be a better person for themself and society.

"I used to believe in Blind Faith, but then Eric Clapton left the band"

[Policy of Truth]

Moral?

"Celtic society" - sacrafices of animals, witcraft, et al.?

"Babylon under Hammurabi - let's not forget that the Code of Hammurabi is considered a huge step forward in the codification of law."- Yes, but didn't they have slaves?

"Athens"- didn't they abuse their power and treat foreigners with malice and hate?

"Sparta"- very violent if I recall 6th grade history.

"Egypt - depending on when in their long civilization (longer than the Christian Era has yet lasted) you look" - Give me a break! You did know they enslaved the jews for many years, right? Egyptians didn't build the pyramids..JEWS DID! Again, I refer you back to Ancient Near Eastern Texts. And lets not forget that the Egyptian population was either very wealthy or very poor...and the rich were burried with their wealth (I know this is their religious beliefs, but what about the man who cannot afford food who could have been given enough gold from a tomb to last a life-time!). A moral society? And also, please remember thier view of women...

"China" - Could you be specific with the periods/dynasties?

I am NOT saying there were/are not moral people in each society, but I hardly think these societies as a whole are ones to emulate! And trust me, I am NOT implying that the US is moral..on the contrary...YIKES!

[Portia]

Posted by Pacificsolo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Egyptians didn't build the pyramids..JEWS DID!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually.... Relatively recent archeological discoveries have established that Egyptians, not slaves, did in fact build the pyramids and the other great building projects of Pharonic Egypt. Many of the workers were highly skilled and well paid professionals. Others were farmers who dedicated 3 months of every year to service to the Pharaoh, during the period in which the Nile flooded and they could not work the land. It was done out of devotion to their faith, which considered the Pharaoh as an individual who would ultimately become a god. Archological digs have revealed that these workers had good health care, lived in good housing, had very good diets, and were mummified and buried with respect. I'm not saying Egyptians did not keep Jewish slaves, but they were not the ones who built the pyramids.

As you say, Pacificsolo, Christianity does not create a moral society. Christianity has been used as an excuse to enslave and kill just as many people as any "heathen" religious belief.

Christian Crusaders took Muslims as slaves (those they didn't kill, that is), and they thought they were doing the work of God.

The Inquisition, which was by no means limited to Spain and lasted hundreds of years, burned people at the stake, tortured, and stole property and assets from the victims, all in the name of Christ.

During the Reformation, Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians fought and killed each other on a regular and organized basis. Even the children of King Henry VIII -- First, during the short reign of the young Edward VI Catholics were persecuted. He died and during the reign of his Catholic half-sister, Queen Mary I, Protestants were burned at the stake. Mary died to be replaced by her Protestant half-sister, and during Elizabeth I's reign, Catholics were persecuted and executed.

The Conquistadors, accompanied at all times by priests, killed and enslaved the Incas and then the Native Americans in Mexico and early California.

Puritans in Europe and early America burned "witches" at the stake, in the name of Christ.

Devoutly Christian American Southerners kept, bred, and sold slaves -- whom they felt free to beat, rape, and kill -- and felt it was entirely "moral" to do so.

No society is entirely "moral" -- not in the past, not now, not ever. All we can do is try to do the best we can, on an individual basis.

[MissD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But my question is-will non-believers go to Heaven. If there is a heaven-which there is(I think) What
happens to all of the fantastic people out there who simply don't believe in God? I mean, it's not fair to throw them
into hell. There are so many fantastic people who are athiests and don't believe, but live by the 10 commandments
subconsiously. Then will the christians go to heaven even if they have not prayed day in their life, and stael as well as
murder? Just because they label themselves christains? Don't mean to start an argument-please take NO offense to
anything stated It's just been bothering me-is there a middle ground for good non-believers to go? I hope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FLP, I'm going to try to answer your question. I'm definitely not an expert on any of the facts, but I am a Christian. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm just stating my point of view. From what I've figured out in my head, you're asking the question the wrong way. It shoulld be Why is anyone lucky enough to go to Heaven? instead of Why do good people go to Hell? It's not enough to simply be good. We all, every last one of us, DESERVE to go to hell. It is by the grace of God that he allows some people to enter paradise and everlasting life. The only people who receive this grace are people who truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. I agree, it seems pretty harsh that good people who haven't apparently done anything wrong go to Hell while murderers can go to Heaven. But the truth )as I understand it) is that even good people deserve to go to Hell because of the sins they have committed and their original sin. I'm not sure I've got all the facts right as I am not anything close to a minister (I'm only 16!) but i hope I could help you look at things from a different perspective.

[Policy of Truth]

MissD..very good theology! I'm impressed!

Portia...I hope I was clear in that I was making the point that NO CIVILIZATION HAS EVER BEEN COMPLETELY MORAL! We therefore lie to ourselves when we speak of creating one. Course, doesn't mean we shouldn't AIM for one!

I would be interested in reading/researching the evidence you have read regarding the Egyptians. Please forward me any links or book titles that I could find the information you did.

I have a hard time believing that the Hebrews in captivity (which is documented in ANE texts) didn't have anything to do with building the pyramids...but I do want to investigate. I have no doubt that the Egyptians used slavery...as did "Christians" in the US...just because they call themselves Christian doesn't mean they act it.

BTW, I believe that I deserve to go to hell. I also believe that the grace of God has saved me and I am overjoyed! Please do not flame me for this belief. It is mine and if you want to believe what you do and behave accordingly, let me believe and behave on behalf of my beliefs as well.

[Portia]

I understood your point about moral societies, pacificsolo, and we agree fully on that point!

As for written authority for the new archeological theories -- I'm afraid I'm a devotee of the History Channel, the Discovery Channel, and the Learning Channel and their frequent documentaries on ancient Egypt! I recall reading a story in NewsWeek a couple of years ago about these discoveries and the change in theory on this point among most Egyptologists, but I can't give you the issue number. I know most of the change in thinking is based upon the discovery, ongoing excavation, and study of a workers' city near one of the great building projects.

Fat Lil' Pony -- your question has been the subject of many of my discussions with my fundamentalist friends who believe you must be born again in Jesus to go to heaven, and it's not a question anyone can answer. We can only go on our own personal faith and belief.

I am of the personal belief that God was and is smart enough and practical enough to tailor the message and the messanger to fit the audience -- be it Jesus, Mohammed, Moses and Abraham, Buddah....

I can't bring myself to believe that God would condemn people who spend their lives in faith and service to Hell, simply because they were born into a non-Christian society. Did every person born before Jesus go to Hell, and every non-Christian after Jesus? I can't believe that. I can't believe that Ghandi went to Hell. I can't believe that the Dalai Lama will go to Hell. I can't believe that every devout Jew who ever lived will go to Hell.

Some of my fundamentalist friends believe that unless you literally have the experience of being "born again", you will go to Hell regardless of your belief in Christ as the Saviour. Thus, to them, Catholics, Episcopals, etc., are doomed to Hell. That is their belief and they are sincere and I do not question their sincerity or faith. However, I cannot share their belief. I cannot believe that Mother Theresa is in Hell.

Thankfully, as others in this thread have pointed out, we are each entitled to our own beliefs and we must respect -- and defend -- the rights of others to maintain different beliefs than our own. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JumpTheMoon]

So MissD, if someone were to not believe in God or believe that Jesus died on the cross for their Sins, they would go to hell regardless of who they were because of their beliefs? Sorry I don't agree at all. I believe there WAS a God but isn't anymore, and I believe there WAS a Jesus but I don't really show it so to speak. I don't go to church or pray because I never have. I don't disagree with people beliving in God but I don't believe that he makes the world spin or all the crap that happens wouldn't. I don't think that just because i'm not a religion fanatic and don't praise him every night that I am a bad person, that is just what I believe and how I was brought up. Anyone who serves a good purpose on earth will go to Heaven because they deserve it. And Lawyers do not go to hell!! LOL!

[tle]

You guys have done a bunch of talking while I was home "sick" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

pacificsolo...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Celtic society" - sacrafices of animals, witcraft, et al.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PLEEEEEEZE do NOT start referring to witchcraft in such a negative manner. I hate to and really didn't want to get into this, but if your (or anyone else's) knowledge of witchcraft comes only from hollywood and the Bible, then I can see where you would throw Witchcraft into a statement that is obviously intended in a negative manner (referring to cultures and practices that you believe are amoral). After all, it was King James who was paranoid about witches and thus the passage in teh Bible that states "suffer not a witch to live" was written as such when it should have been "suffer not a poisoner to live". ... and Hollywood's idea of a witch is some child abducting, animal sacrificing nutcase that can chant a couple words and fire suddenly appears from their fingertips. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Witchcraft *IS* a religion... and true practioners are very moral, uphold a "due unto others" type code, and take personal responsibility VERY seriously.

[Snowbird]

Even a superealist has to believe in a single God! Even if you want to think he is not in our day to day life. You should read the existentialists. Whether you believe in the universe having started as the big bang, or as I do in the steady state there is such a logical and reasonalble pattern that it can not be an accidental occurance. You always have to get back to the big question of why?

Portia I do so agree with you that the one thing that can give us all a great deal of pride is that we can agree to disagree without a crusade to wipe out the heathens. That is truly a sign of the growth and evolution of our civilization.

I too believe that all the prophets tried to find a way to explain to the peoples of their day and world the same message. It was the followers who interpreted those messages and created the deviations. What I enjoy is the opportunity to explore the ideas. I think that creative ideas are our greatest gift of all.

I was taught that if you are fortunate enough to be able to comprehend and develop ideas that you were blessed and needed to be patient and understanding of those not so fortunate because perhaps we got the surplus and caused someone else to have the deficit. So, I could never condemn anyone just because they thought differently than I did about anything.

I too am a follower of the Discovery Channel and the Learning Channel and especially the History Channel because I have always been absorbed by the Egyptians.

Did you see the one where they discovered Caucasian mummies in China 2000 years earlier than expected? And, now they are using DNA to trace the 10 lost tribes of Israel. I especially loved the one that said Neanderthals are not extinct, they are still with us. Interestingly they have excavated villages that are more than 12,000 years old, and yet if you were a fundamentalist our world didn't start until a little more than 5000 years ago. There was also a show where they were considering a clone of Jesus from the DNA in the blood on the Turin cloth.

What I always remember is that all the martyrs died so we are all descended from the guys in the stands.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jun. 07, 2001 at 10:49 PM.]

[sydneyw]

Have to say something. what exactly I'm not quite sure.

Well I'm an equestrian and a christian. I grew up in a Mennonite household, which is another demonination(sp?). I believe Jesus came to earth to die on the
cross for my sins and that I will go to heaven one day and be with him for all times. I know that I dont deserve to go to heaven. No one does. We were all
born of a sinful nature and only by God's grace I know that some will go to heaven. Worshipping God is the best feeling I have ever had and riding my
horse comes in second. I can't explain that peace and love that you feel, you have to experience it for yourself. I don't know if any of this made any sense, but I just wanted to say it.

[tle]

I hope no one takes this as an attack... it most certainly isn't meant that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can't explain that peace and love that you feel, you have to experience it for yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While no one can know exacly what YOU feel... what makes you (or anyone else who has stated this same emotion) think that other people don't feel the exact same thing... even if they are not feeling it towards the same diety (or no diety at all)? Talk to me about 8 months ago... I have never felt such peace, love and contentment as I did when I "discovered" a name to what I had been feeling for over 15 years. I too wanted to shout it from the rooftops!! Finding our own path is IMHO part of this life... and finding what "feels right" is absolutely elating!

going to bed now before I *really* start rambling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[tle]

Snowbird...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I always remember is that all the martyrs died so we are all descended from the guys in the stands <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I missed this late last night when I read it. Too funny!!! (and too true!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Leather]

and this discussion has been way too mature and civilized, a little religious humor...(plus this could serve to bring up the subject of Good Works for salvation!)

There were three guys sitting behind three nuns at a football game.
The men decide to antagonize the nuns and get them to move.
The first dude says, "I'm goin' to California, cuz there's only about 100
Catholics living there."
The second says, "yeah well, I'm going to Washington because there's only like
about 50 Catholics there."
The third guy out does him by saying, "I'm going to Idaho where there are only
25 Catholics."
About then one of the nuns turns around and calmly say, "Why don't all three of
you go to Hell, there aren't any Catholics there."

[pt]

OK, Pacificsolo, maybe we'd better define "moral." "Moral" codes do vary from society to society; most are based on the same basic principles, and most tend to tunnel vision - i.e., it is difficult for any society to grant equal recognition to a society which differs in customs or appearance from itself. There are posts on this thread which illustrate that fact - some of them yours, BTW, which is in no way a slam, just pointing out that particular human blind spot is common to most people(s).

Soooo -

You object to animal sacrifice and "witchcraft" in Celtic society (and plenty of others)? Uh-huh. Well, there was animal sacrifice in early Judaism, and there was a major human sacrifice which is the basis of Christianity, if I'm not mistaken. Even so, how is this evidence of an immoral society, if the basic principles of society are observed? Santerians still practice animal sacrifice - it isn't to my taste, but how does that equal immoral?

Witchcraft? Hmmmmm......

Invocations to deities - Celtic/et al.
Prayers (invocations to deities) - Christian

Ceremonial practices - Celtic et al.
Ceremonial practices - Christian

Ritual cannabalism (for those who believe in transubstantiation) - Many past societies. I think only present in modern practice in Christianity.

Interesting parallels, no?

Slavery - common to most past societies. Including Christian.

Athens and Sparta - abusing power and treating foreigners with hate/also very violent. Oh, come on! Christian religious wars...Inquisition... KKK...Serbia in the 1990's ("ethnic cleansing" in the name of God).

And so it goes.

*************************************************

B]Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth.[/B]
The three highest causes of the true human: Truth, Honor, and Duty.
Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
Traditional Celtic Triads

[Inverness]

I can only conclude that organized religion does more harm than good.

[MsRidiculous]

Ditto that, Inverness.

-Amanda

[So Intent]

"Celtic society" - sacrafices of animals, witcraft, et al.?

"Babylon under Hammurabi - let's not forget that the Code of Hammurabi is considered a huge step forward in the codification of law."- Yes, but didn't they have slaves?

"Athens"- didn't they abuse their power and treat foreigners with malice and hate?

"Sparta"- very violent if I recall 6th grade history.

I am just using some of what you said in examples. But to judge an entire society only on thier faults is foolish. Christianity? Responsible for the torture, death, murder, enslavement, rape and abuse of millions of people. Is this the main idea of christianity? Of course not! But christians, hailing the bible for thier support, and proudly quoting it and pledging to god as they did so, have done things worse than any society that you have mentioned. An example? The Holocaust. Over 6 million people killed in one swoop, for failing to agree with christian ideals. Don't pick out the dark sides of various past cultures unless you are ready for your own cultures "dirty laundry" to be aired.

[Policy of Truth]

I wrote: "I hope I was clear in that I was making the point that NO CIVILIZATION HAS EVER BEEN COMPLETELY MORAL! We therefore lie to ourselves when we speak of creating one. Course, doesn't mean we shouldn't AIM for one!".

I am dissapointed that those who have slammed me have decided to conveniantly overlook this statement. NO CIVILIZATION IS MORAL = not medieval Spain, not Antebellum South, NOT ANY GROUP! I believe we are ALL sinners!

As far as sacrafice goes, the difference in my opinion and the opinions of other othodox Christians is that God commanded sacrafices of animals and gave up his Son for the ultimate sacrafice for the entire world.

We consider witchcraft to be a sin, mentioned clearly as against God in the Bible. I am not going to go against my Lord to please the world.
If I am percieved as close minded, then so be it. I will not say something is "right" just to please man when my God has strictly forbidden it (i.e. Witchcraft).

But I thank God for his mercy on people when we choose to change our ways and follow him. His forgiveness knows no boundaries.

[Velvet]

I feel as if my question on morals is starting to alter this discussion in a way where people are pointing fingers, and that's not at all what I would want for this discussion.

My questions were specifically for a person who is an atheist. Because, when I was searching for answers I was brought back to this one time and time again. What sets a standard? Why don't we just go out and do anything we want? How did we develop them? To ME (not saying anyone else has to agree) I can't see anyone choosing one thing over the other without something prodding his or her conscience. And that thing, to me, is God. (At first it was not Christ/God/Holy Spirit to me--it was more of an agnostic approach.)

Now, Erin's reply in this debate was very insightful. And I can see that we could reason some of those choices out over time, but knowing how most people are prompted by that little inner voice telling them something is good or bad, I still don't see a cohesive collection of moral rules being created. Maybe that's just me.

Attacking different cultures and what other people have done in the name of their faith really isn't what I thought we wanted to talk about out here. If you want to hear just a few words from me about what Christians have done in the past that is reprehensible--here they are. The stand I take is that there is evil in the world and all it wants is to stop others from hearing the message of Christ. To that end, the best people to corrupt and bring about a sense of disillusionment are those who are in a high position within the church. It makes others miss the message--it gets lost because the messengers have lost their way and are not living their faith, they are just spouting words that have nothing to do with the core belief and performing terrible acts that also have nothing to do with Christianity.

This also follows just a bit on the discussion about being wealthy or being poor. It IS easier when you are poor, to have a stronger faith, because you are hoping for not only things in this world that are good, but you are living for the promise of tomorrow where Christians KNOW all things are wonderful. For the wealthy it is much easier to be distracted by shiny objects and tried to compete with the neighbors...we don't have to struggle and worry about tomorrow, we just go on and look at our lives with a very horizontal (worldly view). It's hard to take your eyes off the toys and have a more vertical (Godly) view. Think about it, if things come easily why would I think I need to rely on God? Instead I think I can do everything and forget to talk to Him, trust Him, and ask for His advice and what He wants me to do for Him.

[Velvet]

Hobson,

I believe Sartre's book is from 1943, and St. Augustine (Aurelius Augustinus) wrote his Confessions during his life time, which as 354-430 A.D.

I'm betting Sartre's comments are a paraphrase of what was written in the original Greek, because that's what Augustine described.

(Oh, and I don't want to forget to reply to your comparison of being homosexual as being akin to skin color. That's where Christians feel there is a difference. The belief is that you are born with a skin color, but your are not born with a sexual preference. It sounds like this goes against an experience of yours, but that is what the Bible teaches. It teaches that God made man and woman and that we are to have sexual relationships only between those who are married. And that God created this relationship for procreation and to bring us closer together. Now, as for judging others, like I said we are all fallen, but Christians are saved by God's grace. Having a gay relationship and being a non-Christian is your call. We pray for all who are not saved equally. If you were a Christian who is gay, that's another discussion--and not with me, with God.)

[This message was edited by Velvet on Jun. 08, 2001 at 03:21 PM.]

The way I see it:
Poor people are more thankful for what little they DO have..for example thinking they are still alive, have family etc.

Wealthy people usually want more and I can say that cause that is the way I am!! Greedy /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Bad isn't it.

I've seen many poor people who are more willing to help their neighbor and wealthy people who are to busy. But I've also seen the opposite. A lot of it is if you are a pessimist or an optimist.

[hobson]

This is a point of confusion for me. For those here who follow bibilical injunctions, teachings, and instructions, how do you make the decision as to which parts of the Bible you filter through a sort of general interpretation and which you follow literally and strictly?

Which translation is considered best, and why?

When obeying literal orders from the bible, how do you decide upon original intent, given the wealth of different translations and scholarly interpretations of what the words mean?

[tle]

pacificsolo... I want to say upfront that I never took your posts to mean that there was a culture with morals in comparison to the list that was given. for me, I simply wanted to make a point for one that was listed in that "a moral" list.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We consider witchcraft to be a sin, mentioned clearly as against God in the Bible. I am not going to go against my Lord to please the world.
If I am percieved as close minded, then so be it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point I was making about witchcraft is not that I expect you (or anyone else) to completely embrace it... just perhaps to shed some light. Light that is NOT found in the Bible (at least not the King James version... if you read another version, you will find a different story).

Which brings me around to a question (not an attack, a true question) that I found myself asking when I was learning and researching this for the first time. If we can find one instance of obvious change in words of the Bible, that which Christians hold true and right, then what is to say that in the multitude of translations that this document (fabulous though it may be) has gone through there aren't other changes? What I'm asking is if King James, to southe is witch paranoia, had his transcribers change "poisoner" to "witch" was is to say that he or someone else didn't "tweek" the wording to suite themselves? I couldn't come up with an answer to this one for myself... anyone else wanna take a crack at it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I will not say something is "right" just to please man when my God has strictly forbidden it (i.e. Witchcraft).

But I thank God for his mercy on people when we choose to change our ways and follow him. His forgiveness knows no boundaries.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have to say it is right... it obviously isn't for you. But coming across as so "righteous" in the face of others who may or may not believe it to be a path for them, is a bit pretentious if not downright rude, isn't it? If it were homosexuality we were discussing instead of witchcraft, would you make the same statements int he same manner? What about Buddism? Or Hinduism? I realize that the beliefs that YOU hold for YOURSELF say that witchcraft is wrong... but what you have written does seem not only closed-minded, but condescending. (not flaming really... just calmly pointing out how your post came across).

Also, some may say that they are happy that you have faith in your god to redeem and forgive within your faith.... some (followers of other religions and beliefs) may also say great for you, but we don't need your god's forgiveness

[again, this whole post really was written in a calm trying-to-make-a-point manner... NO flaming was intended]

[tle]

Thank you hobson... I think you may have put it better than I did.

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is a point of confusion for me. For those here who follow bibilical injunctions, teachings, and instructions, how do you make the decision as to which parts of the Bible you filter through a sort of general interpretation and which you follow literally and strictly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to follow Christ's golden rule and the 10 Commandments. Restrictions on my hair length, pork eating habits, and procreation precautions seem irrelevant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Which translation is considered best, and why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally? Revised Standard Version. I find it easier to read, the language is a bit less floral (said the woman with an English major /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When obeying literal orders from the bible, how do you decide upon original intent, given the wealth of different translations and scholarly interpretations of what the words mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, this question is the exact same one I answered more than 20 years ago in a college intro to religion course. And it took me a good hour to compose it. There are 3 ways to interpret any religious work. I can only remember two; as historical fact or as myth with underlying message.

There are also ways of interpreting the messengers. Did they actually sit there, quill in hand, taking Holy Dictation? Were they divinely influenced by an event? Were these stories collected from ancient Hebrew/Greek/Egyptian/ Babylonian myths? Did the writer carry his own cultural baggage and beefs when he wrote?

I have no real answer except follow the path of greatest compassion, maybe make life a little easier for someone else, and realize life's a gift for all of us. And that's not so different from what we all want, I hope.

Time! Pencils down. Turn over your test booklets.

[Velvet]

Hobson,

You have hit on a question many people (including myself) have asked. There are many different ways to interpret a word. So, what I started with was the NIV (New International Version) because 100 scholars from different denominations (yes, they still were Christians) went back to the original documents and when they disagreed on a word or statement, they would footnote the different ways they were interpreting it. Beyond that there are many other concordances for the Bible, and websites with the original words so you can go and look up the definition on your own if you know the language.

Beyond that we would probably need a theologian out here. Maybe one will show up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do know that there are portions of the Bible that are considered literal, others are songs and poetry, discussions between people about God, parables and even some parts scholars identify as stories that have been simplified by the authors because what they were show by God could not be written down in a way that was comprehensible by the readers. Now, how do they divide those? The only thing I know is that they do it by the language that was used. If the word is specific to an individual or to man as in human kind it changes how they interpret it.

Does that answer your questions? Like I said, I'm no theologian, but I do study the Bible along with a lot of the writings of others, talk with theologians, listen to them and also have a friend who is currently in seminary...which is very interesting. I don't think there is anything like seminary to make one take a very hard look at their faith...from what I've heard.

[Policy of Truth]

See? I am being called "condescending" for STATING my PERSONAL beliefs!

I know I will not be able to convince many that I have the right to believe what I do, but so be it.

I am not self-righteous. I am stating what orthodox Christianity holds dear and has for over 2000 years. Why is it ok to believe anything and everything else EXCEPT Christanity? Please consider the parodox you are in. You are upset with me because I believe ceratin things, yet I am not saying YOU should believe what I do. But I am being criticized.

Don't get me wrong, I am not surprised. This is the parodox many Christians fight. Scripture tells us we will be persecuted for our beliefs: If you do not believe me, take a look at the numbers of christians that have been murdered for their beliefs THIS century alone. I am not saying anything that hasn't been said before. But I am tired of "the pot calling the kettle black syndrome".

If you want me to respect you (which I do, believe it or not), you must also respect me. No matter what you say that hurts or belittles my faith, I still believe you have the right to say it. I also have the right to disagree. You can disagree with my faith, but please do not belittle it.

As far as understanding translations of the Bible, I cannot give you a shortened version of the cannonization process. That you will need to either read on your own, or I would suggest taking a church history class. I am not trying to avoid it, but there is too much to tell. I personally prefer the NIV (New International Version) translation. Some things in the KJV I believe were slanted towards King James' political views...but the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that just about every word had been translated EXACTLY as how it was meant to be! (barring some)Pretty cool...a miracle some would say.

There is a phrase theologians will often use: "Rightfully Divide the Text", which means that in order to read the Bible for what it is, a person must first allow their mind to be open so that God can guide them through the Holy Spirit to understand and interpret scripture. It also refers to knowing what was a time-bound culture issue vs. a standing truth for all people, in all cultures, for all times.

Also, the bible was written with an intention in mind: to relate to God's people their story and to reveal God's love and plan of salvation. It is unfair to ask the Bible to say something it never intended, such as science. I believe the two coincide beautifully!

(putting on flame-retardant suit /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

[Flash44]

How many of you voicing strong opinions have actually gone to a church and listened to a homily (or whatever) recently? Since I'm Catholic, it's the only part of the mass that changes week to week, so it's the only part that I tune in to.

Sure the church has a checkered past, but the priests I hear are strongly rooted in the present, in the issues facing today's congregations, and deliver sermons that you can take home and live. You can't base an entire religion on the Bible, everyone knows it is historically inacurate.

[Policy of Truth]

My Theology Professor is teching at Oxford this summer, but I'll call his secratary and ask her if he has an em account over there. I'm sure he'd be very happy to help explain the "Unexplainables". If I were better at explaining things, I'd attempt to describe the cannonization process, but I'd only confuse everyone! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Duffy]

Ugggg....Religion and Politics...YES, I put them in the same sentence. I hate what they do to some people. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Policy of Truth]

I love Catholic Homilies! I have a good friend who is a priest...I believe Fransiscan...I came so close to becomming Catholic, but the birth control thing was too scary...I'm one of "those" Christians who does NOT want children! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[hobson]

pacificsolo, if you sense that people are getting upset about your beliefs, I don't think they object to the fact that you adhere to the style of Christianity that you do. Where people start getting ansty, I think, is the "I am right, you are wrong" meaning that is implicit in a statement that "God saves (certain) Christians, and we'll pray for the rest of you."

And Velvet, what I was wanting to hear was, if the Bible somehow asserts that people choose their sexuality and that some choices are better than others, how do you deal with having contact with these sorts of sinners? I, for instance, try to avoid contact with people I think are nasty, like greedy, dishonest, or violent people. I don't want to be their friends, and don't pretend to like them. You are under the impression that I'm a lesbian - say you saw me holding hands with my female honey at a horse show...say I introduced myself to chat...it is obvious to you that I am not in god's favor...what would you do?

[Policy of Truth]

I have several homosexual as well as bi-sexual friends. Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves. I hope this explains your question.

[Snowbird]

Let's keep this as it has been a general discussion which casts no aspersions on anyone. These are ideaa that can be explored.

It's true that the flaw is the need to say "I have the only right way". Whoever mentioned it I am sure did not really intend to refer to Orthodox Catholicism because they don't even agree with each other i.e. Roman Catholicism. The Orthodox allow priests to be married for example.

There was a history program on the History Channel which had an interesting hypothesis. Since so much of that part of world is desert and dry they were very impressed by an off shore island that was lush and green and cool. The History Channel produced some deductive thinking and some documentation that 4000 years ago there was just such a place and it was generally referred to as a paradise, and that soon came to be called Paradise. People in that era hoped that when they died they could be buried on Paradise.

Did anyone else see that show? and If so I wondered if you felt as I did that this was a very plausible explanation for the word of mouth legends that later were incorporated into the paradise myth.

[pt]

here I thought we were having a nice exchange of ideas, and Pacificsolo (and others?) are getting upset. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Please, PS et al, take this thread for what it is - a conversation not a conversion. I am a firm believer that there are many paths; if the fundamentalist/orthodox Christian path is the one that suits you best, grand! It's a tough old world, and whatever helps you get through it in harmony with the Divine, with others, and with your own Higher Self, is OK with me. As long as it doesn't harm others - and I don't believe that is your intent. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You mustn't take disagreement with your statements as attack - especially when you make statements that are either historically unproveable, philosophically shaky, or theologically based on one particular POV. We have a lot of people on this thread who consider these matters seriously and not all are going to see things your way.

I do think that comments implying that those who disagree are on the road to Hell (whatever that is) are geared to polite, reasoned discourse. That's where you're running into problems. Please, leave that sort of talk for the Sunday morning televangelists with big hair, and let's keep this thread on a more intellectual basis.

As Velvet points out, many different sources contributed to the collection of books we know as the Bible. There are historical records, myths, law codes, poetry, etc. And let us not forget that a great deal of the philosophy is cloaked in allegory. That's how they taught in the tradition of the time.

Flash44 - yes, as a matter of fact, I have been to a Catholic service lately. The funeral of a dear friend as it happens. I wish there had been even one smidgeon of a feel of positive energy or belief from the mutterings of the priest or the responses of the congregaton. There wasn't - there wasn't any at the wedding I attended there either. I hope that the church you attend offers more spiritual uplift than that one. And I certainly don't take the blahness of two services at one church as a condemnation of the whole body of Christian belief. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, I have to believe that it is a very good thing that there are so many here who take the responsibilities of their places in the world of Spirit so much to heart.

**************************************************
Three things from which never to be moved:
one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth.

[tle]

pacificsolo... oh no! No that's not what I meant! (well, kinda... but not really) Obviously I didn't state my thoughts right. Snowbird did a good job of explaining where i was coming from. I have ABSOLUTELY NO problem with your beliefs... it's just the stating (implicitly) that your way is the only way that kind of rubs me the wrong way.

As for attending church lately... nope. Well, at least not "church" in the normally perceived sense of the word (as in, my old Catholic church). I have, however, "worshipped" (or whatever word you would substitute here) very recently.

Happy weekend everyone!!

[MissD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So MissD, if someone were to not believe in God or believe that Jesus died on the cross for their Sins, they would
go to hell regardless of who they were because of their beliefs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I'm saying. That's what Christianity is! You must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross FOR YOU in order to be saved. It's THE ONLY WAY. How do you define a good person anyway?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I believe there WAS a God
but isn't anymore, and I believe there WAS a Jesus but I don't really show it so to speak. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what do you think happened to God and Jesus? They got sick of us and left? Went over to the next galaxy? I'm not trying to attack you, but i don't see where you're coming from.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't disagree with people beliving in God but I don't believe that he makes the world spin or
all the crap that happens wouldn't <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The crap happens because, in the words of Geroge Michael, "Ya gotta have faith!" It's so easy to love someone when all they ever do for you is good, and nothing ever goes wrong. It works that way for God too. It would be simple to believe if nothing ever challenged your faith. It's the crap in life that really tests you and lets you know that you do believe in God, and it makes your faith stronger.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think that just because i'm not a religion fanatic and don't praise him every
night that I am a bad person, that is just what I believe and how I was brought up. Anyone who serves a good
purpose on earth will go to Heaven because they deserve it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't go to Hell because you're a bad person. Again, how do you define bad/good person? You go to Hell because you don't love God, and don't believe that His son died for you. My whole point is that, no, not all "good people" deserve to go to Heaven. In fact, not one person who ever drew breath, except Jesus, deserved to go to Heaven. The purpose that Christians serve is to bring others to God.

Once again, I am not an authority on this stuff. I'm only telling you how I personally understand it. But it's an awesome thing when you realize that you DESERVE to burn in Hell, and God saved you.

[Velvet]

Okay, let me get this straight first. I don't know whether or not you are gay. I guess I read something in one of your posts that made me direct my comments on homosexuality towards you. And I think I have stated something that implied you are...probably because I was thinking about how I would say these things to someone who is. It sounds like you aren't offended, but I'll apologize anyway. Sorry! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If I saw you walking down the barn aisle (hypothetical here--just as you stated) with a person of the same gender, holding hands and kissing, I wouldn't do anything. How else can I say this...I wouldn't feel upset, intrigued, outraged, sympathetic, etc. It is your choice to do the things you do. Will I pray for you just because you're gay and pray that you stop being gay? No, I will pray what I pray for everyone...that you will come to know Christ. It's that simple.

I have some gay friends, by the way. Do I look at them and say to myself, "Oh, how terrible! I really need to help them stop doing this!" No, I say to myself, "Wow, I really think this person is wonderful. I really love them. If they will let me share what I have found to be wonderful, I'll do it, otherwise, I will just love them for who they are." And if I shared that message with them and they accepted Christ, it's between God and them. I can only talk to them about what I've read in the scripture and how I interpret it, but the choices they make for the rest of their lives is between them and God.

Does that make sense to you?

[B.G.M. heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You go to Hell because you don't love God, and don't believe that His son died for you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly don't intend this as a personal attack MissD, and you're certainly not the only Christian out there who believes this, but it does lead me to wonder whether, by this strict dictum, Bhuddists, Hindus, Jews, and others will, by virture of their own distinct beliefs, go to Hell.

As stated earlier, my own parents are very devout Christians, and my father is a deacon at their church. They 'found' religion at a very difficult time in their lives and I am, thankful actually, that they found such solace and comfort in religion at a time when they were experiencing such traumatic emotional pain. I extend that respect to all, of any religion, who have found strength and peace.

While my parents would prefer that their children and, especially, their grandchildren went to church, they also recognize and respect our own choices and do not preach, condemn, or pity us. They do not proselytize, or even utter the words, "God", "Jesus", "salvation", "heaven" or "hell" in our presence. Equally, they respect our right as religious abstainers.

They, of all, have earned, probably, the greatest right to 'preach the gospel' to us. I find it, thus, odd that total and complete strangers on a BB have undertaken the task of leading 'me', metaphorically not literally, to Jesus. Without, certainly, pointing any fingers, much of what's been written on this thread reads to me like preaching and I, for one, share Duffy's discomfort.

[kissandtell]

All I have to say is:

Diversity and thinking/ doing things for yourself, not because you think that you "have" to or you'll go to hell or whatever= good, great, wonderful

Doing things for other people/ beings, suppressing others ideas/beliefs, acting out against others who are different than you= not good, great, or wonderful, even if you say it is justified because your "God" says it is okay.

So basically do whatever you want, as long as you don't harm others (animals included) on your way there.

[Velvet]

I guess the title of the post says it all. It was asking about a very specific faith--Christianity. This is kind of like the dressage board issues of late where it came down to "If you don't like the sound of it, why read it?" (NO flaming! Just sort of a verbal *shrug*.)

I guess I don't see much evangelism out here, but rather a statement of what Christianity is and what Christians (most, not all) believe. Much of the discourse has also been by way of questions, some more probing than others, but all aimed at a better understanding (I hope) of each other and beliefs in general.

Am I wrong in seeing this as an open discussion on Christianity (now that the subject has grown and mutated) and how it differs from other faiths? Did I cross some line somewhere without realizing it?

[Hephaistion]

So what you're saying Velvet, is that despite the fact that the bible says homosexuality is a sin, you are not offended by it because ultimately it is a personal matter between an individual and god?

Hmmmm that's not too bad a veiwpoint /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unfortunately many devout christians wouldn't agree with you, preferring to consider someone like myself an aberration and deserving of being burned in hell or whatever, despite the fact that my sexual orientation was not a choice.

Which is something I don't understand - if god is supposed to be all knowing, all caring and all forgiving, why should some doctrines or whatever decree that homosexuality is such a horrible crime against nature? Kind of takes away from the all forgiving aspect.

I wouldn't think much of god if he sent me to hell for something that I had no choice in /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

Doesn't it say someplace that Jesus said " a Church is anywhere where people gather to honor my Father." My impression from my parochial school education was that Jesus was a very informal fellow who challenged the organized religion of his day and said that saying prayers and making offerings was not what God wanted and did not make a "good" man. Why would it be so different to believe that Jesus as the first reformed Rabbi was crucified and that what he meant was that he was the son of God in the same way the we all are the children of God. Afterall the Gospels were all written hundreds of years after his death by descendents of those who told the stories of that time.

What's so interesting to me is that while Jesus was here to reform Judism and save the Jews, they accepted him as a rabbi and a teacher and have reformed the temples getting rid of all the gold and fancy stuff, the pomp and circumstance.
So in essence he did reform Judism, yet the Catholic priests wear the robes of the priests in the old Testament, and they have all the gold and incense and things that somehow I think would not be in keeping with the poverty vows that would be in response to what Jesus preached.

Then the Protestants come along and they have the same kind of churchs that the Jews have as drab simple temples. Mohammed accepted all of his predacessors and therefore would be a follower of Jesus in the literal sense because he believed Abraham was the ancester of everybody, and he reveered Moses too.

Couldn't it be said that therefore we all follow in what Jesus taught but we have different semantics and ceremonies to celebrate the principles he taught us and we are all one family.

[Portia]

Posted by Miss D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You go to Hell because you don't love God, and don't believe that His son died for you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Posted by Heidi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I certainly don't intend this as a personal attack MissD, and you're certainly not the only Christian out there who believes this, but it does lead me to wonder whether, by this strict dictum, Bhuddists, Hindus, Jews, and others will, by virture of their own distinct beliefs, go to Hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Heidi, that is what fundamentalist Christians believe. It is not what you or I believe -- as I said above, I think God tailors the messangers to the audience. We all have the right to our beliefs, whatever they are. And we are not going to change anyone's beliefs on this BB.

This has been a really good discussion so far, and Velvet, yes, I think it has been a kind of question and answer exchange designed to learn more about various issues. However, if this thread degenerates from the exchange of information and ideas it has been into a sniping session, it will be closed. There hasn't been a horse mentioned in about 5 pages, after all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Portia on Jun. 08, 2001 at 06:41 PM.]

[Portia]

To try to lighten things up -- and *PLEASE* take this in the light spirit in which it is intended, it is not intended to be offensive at all -- This discussion reminds me of an episode of South Park I saw recently:

There was a great catastrophe on earth and people of all religions showed up for judgment at the same time -- Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. They all asked God, "So which is it? We all followed our faiths devoutly and believed that it was the way to get into Heaven. So, tell us, God, which of us was right about what You wanted?"

God says, "The answer is: The Mormons. Yep, it was the Mormons that guessed right. The rest of you were wrong and all go to Hell. Sorry."

OK, maybe you had to see it. But it did make a point about how no one really knows exactly what God wants. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[LittleWitch]

This has been going around for years:

Subject: FW: A Scholarly Dissertation about Hell

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry midterm. The answer was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, which is why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic(absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing with time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving.

I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions, and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell. Because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my Freshman year:

"...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you."--

and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be true; and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze."

THE STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A" GIVEN.

[JumpTheMoon]

Considering I don't even KNOW my own religion, this is how I have intook everything I have heard from what others have said. There are so many different views on every religion, it's not even worth the time to say which way is right and which way is wrong to do this or that. I prefer not to live my life by doing what someone has written in a book for me to do, I live my life the way I am comfortable living it. I don't understand how people can be SO sure that there is a God or a Jesus or whoever. Now, I have read the bible, all 1500 pages of it, but I spend half of my time questioning what was said because to me, it just doesn't make sense. Maybe that is why I'm not religious. There is no proof God or Jesus has said any of what was in that bible. I have a hard time beliving something I haven't seen with my eyes.


That's what I'm saying. That's what Christianity is! You must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross FOR YOU in order to be saved. It's THE ONLY WAY. How do you define a good person anyway?

What I mean by a good person is someone who has helped the world be a better place, regardless of religion/race/sex etc. What do you mean "to be saved"? Why do you need to be saved if you have never done anything to offend Jesus.


So what do you think happened to God and Jesus? They got sick of us and left? Went over to the next galaxy? I'm not trying to attack you, but i don't see where you're coming from.

I can't say I've asked either of them, so i'll get right on that. I wouldn't even blame them if they got sick of us and left. What I was trying to say was that I believe there was a God and that Jesus died on the cross, and I believe God is watching over us, but I don't think he has any influence on what happens here on earth. And that stuff in the bible about him being able open up the earth and suck all the bad people in, and cure people with a broken arm...don't buy it. If he could do that, he would most certainly have cured cancer by now.


The crap happens because, in the words of Geroge Michael, "Ya gotta have faith!" It's so easy to love someone when all they ever do for you is good, and nothing ever goes wrong. It works that way for God too. It would be simple to believe if nothing ever challenged your faith. It's the crap in life that really tests you and lets you know that you do believe in God, and it makes your faith stronger.

So if you aren't Christain and don't believe in God, you can't have faith? If crap happens all because of God, what happens to people/religions who don't? Do all Jehovah's Wittness's get struck down by lightening because they don't have any faith in God, since it isn't in their religion to believe in him?


You don't go to Hell because you're a bad person. Again, how do you define bad/good person? You go to Hell because you don't love God, and don't believe that His son died for you. My whole point is that, no, not all "good people" deserve to go to Heaven. In fact, not one person who ever drew breath, except Jesus, deserved to go to Heaven. The purpose that Christians serve is to bring others to God.

Then what is the point of Heaven? If everyone who ever lives goes to Hell, then there is no Heaven? Even if you never put a wrong foot in your entire life, and do everything you can to help the people around you, but you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOU, you will still go tell Hell? Or are you saying only Christians deserve to go to Heaven? I don't understand what you are trying to say here, sorry.

Once again, I am not an authority on this stuff. I'm only telling you how I personally understand it. But it's an awesome thing when you realize that you DESERVE to burn in Hell, and God saved you.

How did God save me? Why do I deserve to burn in hell? God has never SAVED me from anything. Until I almost die in a car crash or get cancer and it is magically cured, God will not have saved me. What exactly DID he do to save me from burning in Hell?

[hobson]

Velvet,

yup, that makes sense.

oh, and Portia...I DID mention horse shows a page or two ago... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Policy of Truth]

Was I wrong to answer questions that were asked, or to defend my faith? I'm confused. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And to relate this to horses, my colt's birth was a miracle. I do not believe it was by chance that he survived 2.5 hours of labor and then three knockouts from his own mother. I also believe it was a miracle he is healed from an injury that threatened to prevent him from ever being ridden...and is now in his 4th month of training.

But, that's my beliefs. I have not attempted to convert anyone. I have answered questions and defended my faith. Just to keep this on the up and up, if you would like to em me directly and ask any questions or have a respectful debate off of this BB, I would welcome it. I believe iron sharpens iron.

And just to make it clear, the Word is offensive. I personally do not like offending people, prefering harmony to chaos, but what I believe makes an exclusive claim that has the capacity to include anyone who believes it. In this way, I am no different that Jews or Muslims. The Jews think I followed a false deity, and the Muslims say I will burn for eternity because I didn't face Mecca and pray five times a day to Allah.

Just a note: "paradise" is not a Biblical idea. It is a Muslim one. You are correct that it is/was an island. I did my readings from a translated Koran (which I understand is against their law? Can someone help me here?). Christianity has what is called "heaven"...I know more about heaven than I do about paradise, so I can't say much more.

And, if Southpark is right, then Jesus was just a man and lied and many people chose death rather than to renounce their faith. That sucks. I personally really believe my faith, so I hope that was just a cartoon /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for anyone killing anyone in the name of God, I believe he'll deal with them just fine. I personally think it is disgusting to kill in the name of Christianity. I am embarrassed that some people who align themselves with my faith do horrible things like the web site that was discussed earlier, or slavery, or bombing an abortion clinic to "save lives". I detest it all! But, it is true that my faith has a horrific past. We never should have had the Spanish Inquisition. We never should have burned witches at the stake. I personally do not consider murdering a person to make anything better. I don't like any person having to suffer.

Sorry to rant...just lots on my mind right now.

[Snowbird]

We all have our own beliefs and our own faith in whatever we believe. The Muslim God is the same God by another name because it is Abraham's God but they interpret the message differently.

Your statements show that you disagree with much that is done in the name of Christianity just as most of us disagree with what has been done in the name of other religions and cults. To me the magnificence of creation is it's variety, and then the variety of ways that it develops.

I don't think you needed to "defend" your faith or your religion and that was our point. Like all of us what is yours is yours to hold close. I think inside every person there is that ultimate goodness and kindness and too often people use religion for the other purposes that are not good but they don't know it.

I wonder how we can really define what is good or what is right except that it should never hurt someone else or do them any harm.

[jetsmom]

I ride and consider myself a Christian, however, I am not religious. I have found too much hipocracy and contradictions in all organized religions. Instead of bringing people together, religion seems to be more devisive. Almost like the cliques you see in high school..."if you're not one of us, you're wrong." Because of this, someone watching me ride would have no way of knowing if I was a Christian (unless they hear me mumbling "oh, God! as I am going towards a jump where I don't see a spot!).
That said, I kind of like to think that after I die, there will be a being that will laugh and say, "just call me God, Allah, Buhda or whatever you feel comfortable with...it's all the same to me, silly people!"

[Velvet]

I think I have to start this reply with one caveat...since I haven't ever felt the desire to have close relations with someone of the same sex I can only state what I've heard and read. (Just want to make sure no one gets upset with this one and thinks I was putting myself out as an expert. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

How I understand it is the church does not view being gay as something people are born with, they view it as a choice. (I'm sure everyone has already heard that--and knows that even some psychologists debate that point, so I won't even try.) With that in mind, it is considered like all sins we humans participate in, and unlike skin color which we know you are born with (and I believe Hobson brought up earlier), it is also considered something that you can overcome--sometimes on your own, but we Christians try to make sure we rely on God to help us overcome things.

Now I'm sure people who are homosexual will beg to differ with this, I know my friends who are gay always do, but this is how the church sees it in the Bible when they proclaim that homosexuality is wrong.

(Like I said, not starting a fight...just stating the Christian perspective on this issue. If everyone who sees this will also be sure they read my previous posts about this topic, I don't think I'll have thrown gasoline on any smoldering fires. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Oh, and Portia, I did start a very short side conversation with pacificsolo asking what type style of riding she particpates in! Maybe everyone should add that to their posts?

I ride dressage, and used to event...once upon a lifetime when I didn't realize you could ever get damaged from anything, let alone riding horses. Ah, for the carefree days of youth.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Flash44]

I went to parochial schools as well, and grew up in the Catholic Church. I never heard anything bad about other religions, and spent several years learning about different religions. They were always spoken about respectfully and no one ever said that any other religion was wrong.

Religion is kind of like language, we are all saying the same thing in the end, just sounds a little different and the organization is different.

[So Intent]

I was baptized catholic, and attended church at a younger age, but found the bible and it's extreme followers to be a little too hypocritical for my own tastes, and such denouced it.

But I still believe in god. And there in lies my question. I believe in god, and i believe that god created this wonderful world and all its wonderful creatures for us to enjoy. That the greatest way of worshipping god is to be happy in your life. I don't believe I will go to hell, nor do I believe I was ever destined for such.

But christian beliefs seem to say that I am destined for infernal fire and suffering. But i don't believe in it. So who is to say I'm wrong, and why on earth do I get backlash for my ideas on god. I believe in enjoying gods gifts, while a vast majority of others believe in begging for forgiveness for enjoying gods gifts.

Ok, so I've basically described my beliefs here, yes? The question... if christianity is right, and I am destined for hell, why can't christians just leave me alone to go there? Why must they try to change my opinion, and shun me, or try to hurt me for my ideas? Isn't god the ultimate judge? If he says I go to hell, I go, but if my ideas are right, I go to heaven.

Basically, why on earth do christians feel they need to change me, if in the case that they're right, I suffer for eternity anyway?

I use "I" and "Me", but I mean a broader spectrum of all peoples whose beliefs disagree with the mainstream.

[bronwyn]

i believe Bertrand Russell said that if horses had religion,God would look like a horse. well i am sure that we can all agree that horses are divine regardless of our religious beliefs or practices. i am equally sure that our mutual good fortune to be involved with horses makes us acutely aware of the awe and beauty of life- the overwhelming sense of gratitude that the hard physical work, intellectual challenges and artistry required to acheive that splendid reward of connectedness to nature and our magnificent partners brings -is spiritually fulfilling enough to transcend all ideological differences we might have- so in the words of the rastafarians-ONE LOVE me brethren and sistren-ONE LOVE /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[davidgud - equestrian jihad]

Hmmmmmm . . . .

There are no aethiests (sic) in a foxhole and maybe there are no aethiests before a timed jump off . . . /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MsRidiculous]

I'm an athiest.. until I'm confronted with a really scary distance to a really scary fence!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Then you can hear "Good God!" or "Oh Jesus!" for miles around. lol /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Amanda

[Kellybird]

*equestrian jihad* /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think I'm with Inverness who said that no good can come from organized religion /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

no offense intended.

[Duffy]

What jetsmom said. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MissD]

I'm guess I'm kinda like you, because I'm not sure what I believe either. I know I'm a Christian, but I don't know exactly how I see everything and how much I believe to be true. I don't think I'll ever completely understand all that I've been taught. What I was saying in my other posts was what I have been taught, the way I understand it, not necessarily what I personally perceive to be the truth. I don't even know what I personally perceive to be the truth. So instead of getting into a "Bible Battle" with you over something I don't really know for myself, I'm just gonna end the convo here because I know that I can't explain myself any farther than I already have, and I'm just going to end up looking like a fool. I think I like the idea of most of the other religions having the same message, different medium. It makes sense to me. And I don't like the thought of seeing some of good friends going to Hell, but that's what I believe. I don't know if I should answer some of your other questions or just drop it. If you still wanna talk, you can e-mail me, okay hun? We can still be friends. Did ya say you know who that dirty old stalker is? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JumpItUp]

This is a very interesting topic. Does anyone mind if I move it up?

[tyedyecommando]

On a sort of side note, there is an area trainer who promotes herself as a "christian trainer". She cruises around in her dully with a front plate that says "One Way" with a cross (the christian way is the only way/her way is the only way). The sad part is that nothing about this woman who would strike anyone of having any sort of moral or have any sort of christian attributes. Apparently she has been spreading rumors about the other area trainers needing mental help and practically brainwashes all of her students to think that she is THE BEST trainer anywhere. At the last show I went to she threw a fit because her student had 1/4 time fault on course. She yelled and screamed at the ingate guy and called the course designer some lovely four letter words. Then stormed off loaded all the horses and her stuff onto the trailer and took off leaving her students to transport any stuff they might have home. The management bent to her fit and allow the student to ride in the jump off, but the trainer had already taken off. There are other things I have seen, but I will keep those stories for another day. None of this is gossip, it is action I have seen with mine own eyes and I wonder the sort of stuff that goes on at her barn /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif yikes!

[ErinB]

WHOA- How come I didn't see this thread before? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I have some things to add to it, but I have to skim it again. I hope this thing doesn't die yet.

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[ErinB]

Okayy... this won't have much to do with the original topic, as in "Do Equestrians Who Are Christians Exist?" But I think I need to post this anyway. Okay?

One step at a time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatLilPony said- But my one single solitary question is not that in which most people's question is-where did God come from?
From what I understand, God was, is, and always will be. Have you ever heard him refered to as the "Alpha and Omega"? It means the "First and Last". You can't understand it because we, as humans, can't understand infinity, since everything on earth has a beginning and ending. But spiritual things are totally different since there is no concept of time.

"But my question is-will non-believers go to Heaven. If there is a heaven-which there is(I think) What happens to all of the fantastic people out there who simply don't believe in God? I mean, it's not fair to throw them into hell. There are so many fantastic people who are athiests and don't believe, but live by the 10 commandments subconsiously. Then will the christians go to heaven even if they have not prayed day in their life, and stael as well as murder? Just because they label themselves christains? Don't mean to start an argument-please take NO offense to anything stated It's just been bothering me-is there a middle ground for good non-believers to go? I hope."

READ THIS
Okayyy here is where I go rampaging away from the original title. But I don't know if I'll ever have a chance to talk about this on the boards again, so here goes.
Okay- this might be long.
Do you really understand who Jesus was? You are going to have to think about all those Bible verses that went in one ear and out the other during those boring Sunday school sessions. Believe it or not, the Bible (all of the thousands of pages of it) wasn't written by some bored first century teenager between tending the donkeys. It's real, and it has meaningful stories.
Starting at the beginning, in Genesis. When God created the world, it was perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were blameless and created in God's image. They were created for God's companionship, and God can't look upon sin, so therefore they had to be absolutely pure. Then, recall, Eve sinned, followed by Adam. From then on, sin plagued the world. Lions and tigers became man eating monsters, snakes became venomous, death came to be. If the world went on like this, we would all endure horrible deaths (Hell). The concept of Hell is wayyyy to deep to discuss here, so I won't. Anyway. God couldn't stand for this to happen to his children (people), which were originally created in his image. So he sent his son, Jesus, to earth- God in human form.

Jesus was crucified as an offering to God for our sins. The world could no longer be returned to its perfect state BUT, get this. If you believe in Jesus- who was sent as your savior by God- and pray saying that you accept Jesus as your savior, you will have reestablished contact with God. This, and only this, can get you to Heaven. If you have not accepted Jesus, you can't get to Heaven- not because God doesn't love you more than you could imagine, but because God can't look upon sin. Without accepting Jesus, who was sacrificed for your sin, no amount of church or candle burning or "religion" or Bible study or goodness etc. will get you to God's perfect Heaven. Do you kind of understand? I mean, you can't label yourself as a Christian.

A Christian is not someone that goes to church or practices religion. You can be a Christian without going to church. The key word in Christian is CHRIST. You are a Christian when you have accepted Jesus, thus establishing a connection with God, therefore allowing you to go to Heaven.

Whew... I hope that wasn't too much for this thread or this board, but I felt like I should say it. There's soooo much misconception about what Christianity really is, and it's so sad. I just always want to set things straight. So call me a Jesus freak. To a real Christian, that's a compliment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Okay... I can go to bed now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[debra]

Well, I've only read a few of these posts because, well, there are just so darn many!
But, Carly Sue, if you're still reading these after 11-12 pages, I just wanted to say, "WOW", you certainly posted an interesting topic.
And YES I am a christian, I attend, and am a member of a Congregational Christian church in Ontario Canada.
I'm not famous, but maybe someday! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Mostly I'm just think you're awesome to have posted such a great question.
God Bless

[tle]

ErinB... Good post. But of course i have a question. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

what do you say to someone who is not a christian? who is otherwise a good person, but is, say, a buddist? or Hindu? or Pagan? Someone who believes in THEIR god and path in this life, as strongly as you believe that Jesus died for your sins?

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[MissD]

Whew, I'm glad someone bumped this thread back up to the top. I thought I'd killed it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thank you SO MUCH ErinB! You make things so easy to understand! I completely believe everything you said, and it all makes so much sense to me. When I was trying to explain everything I believe, all I succeeded in doing was confusing myself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif So thanks again for clearing things up and helping me see what it means to be Christian. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[J. Turner]

CarlySue, etc == where do you get off excluding the multitudes of Congregationlists, Catholics, Episcopalians, etc. who are by definition "Christian"? This exclusive definition of "Christian" to those who constantly ask "Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?" is short-sighted, tunnel-visioned, and, I think, insulting to all those not wanted to advertize their choice of Christian sect, but who are still spiritual in their private, personal way.

Don't get me started.

[FatLilPony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A Christian is not someone that goes to church or practices religion. You can be a Christian without going to church. The key word in Christian is CHRIST. You are a Christian when you have accepted Jesus, thus establishing a connection with God, therefore allowing you to go to Heaven. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, what you are saying is that I can ask Jesus into my heart, with all of my heart, and mean it. And then, I can decide that I don't want to be an active christian. That I can sin, and I can never mutter a prayer in my life, and not devote my life to God, and report to Heaven's gates, and be accepted? If that is what you're saying, I don't know if I can say I agree.

If and when you take Jesus into your heart, you have to mean it, and you have to act upon that. And every day you have left in your life, when you are thinking clearly, you must still feel that love in your heart, and you must still want Jesus to be with you, and you must still have that same feeling in you that you had the day He came into your heart. I do not beleive, that one prayer, in one's life can open the gates of Heaven for them.

Sins, are washed away, but what good does a Christain do for God if he never speaks His word? If he never thanks him for everything He's given him?


I may not have the clearest perspective on Christianity, and I may not be the strongest in my faith, but I know, in my heart, that once you accept Jesus Christ, you need to keep on accepting him, for the rest of your mortal life.

Everything else you said, I agree with. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And about the bible. It is not to be interpreted exactly how it reads, God wrote the Bible through man, and have you ever played telephone? you get what I mean. The stories are powerful and strong, and not to mention icredibly meaningful, but not totally accurate. I am sure, because I have felt him, that you will be accepted into Heaven on your judgement day, for who you are, and how you have served Him.

Sorry if I got a little weird, I just had a faith wake up call a few days ago, and realized that I want to live my life for him, and stop living it for me. I mean, he created everything, how can someone take that forgranted like I did?

"Big things happen to small people."

[ErinB]

May want to hide under your beds. These discussions between Whit and I tend to get heated, but in a good way. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
By the way, you're welcome MissD. I'm glad I made it less confusing, not more confusing as usual!
I wasn't planning to go into it deeper last night, since I know this is a horse board yadda yadda. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But hey, if you don't delete me, post I will!

Hmm... how to answer this stuff. I'm going to take this class at my church on how to answer questions like this, so maybe ask me again when I know what I'm doing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So, what you are saying is that I can ask Jesus into my heart, with all of my heart, and mean it. And then, I can decide that I don't want to be an active christian. That I can sin, and I can never mutter a prayer in my life, and not devote my life to God, and report to Heaven's gates, and be accepted? If that is what you're saying, I don't know if I can say I agree. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd better not agree! Here is the biggie. If you "accept", so to speak, you've sort of signed a contract. You're in it. I quote, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new�. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21)" Basically, once you develop your relationship with God, you're not going to be like your old self anymore. It's hard to explain.
You might want to visit this website for more information. What It Means To Be a Christian (http://www.crossroad.to/text/beliefs.html)
Just so you know, God uses Christians to spread the message to nonbelievers about Jesus. That's much more important than saying "thanks-God-for-this-house-and-my-car-and-food-and-Abercrombie-and-my-horse..." although of course you should take the time to be grateful.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I may not have the clearest perspective on Christianity, and I may not be the strongest in my faith, but I know, in my heart, that once you accept Jesus Christ, you need to keep on accepting him, for the rest of your mortal life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I love ya Whit. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You've pretty much got it. The only thing is, once you've accepted him, you don't need to keep accepting him. You're in. The only thing is, you will need to ask forgiveness for your sins, and it's important to establish and maintain a relationship with God. Think of him as your dad or your good friend, not some spiritual power crazed being that wants you to fall at his feet. Thinking of him as a close friend rather than someone to be afraid of helps sooo much, since that's what he is.

By the way- isn't it weird how everyone gets so excited about breathing the same air as NSync or Britney Spears at a concert when you have the opportunity to talk to the creator of the whole universe at any time? Hmmm...

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[FatLilPony]

Thanx Erin /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You didn't make me feel inferior this time! We're makin' progress /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And, for the first time in my life, I really feel like He's close to me, and I really feel safe wherever I am, because He's with me. I am finally accepting His love, and for the fisrt time, I feel good about my faith, not just obligated.

Wuv ya Erin /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks for the clarity /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Big things happen to small people."

[valentine1]

We had a born again christian trainer in our neighborhood for a while. We soon learned that she had lied about her qualifications; it became obvious when she tried to ride the horses she was supposed to school. She was nothing but a backyard rider who thought she could befuddle us all. Actually, she did manage to use some local well-meaning horse owners and lamed quite a few nice horses with her horrible riding. But she did hold Bible-study classes with her clients every Friday evening.

It came to a climax when she developed an eye for the husband-owner of the farm where my horses were boarded. He was married, and so was she (but poorly off, and she wanted the farm). She caused a nasty divorce and ruined the place, but I am sure that wherever she is, she is still holding Bible-study classes with her victims.

[hobson]

Ummmm, ErinB, I browsed through the web site you mentioned and found not only some nicey-nice-we-love-jesus stuff but also a great deal of far-right political diatribes. According to this site, Christians are still terrified by communism (hello? Did you guys read the news in 1989?). They can't deal with powerful women (invoking Bella Abzug as a bad word), gays, and environmentalism. They adhere to a corporate-friendly model of individualist consumerism. When uttering the name "Fidel Castro" is not enough to send us all quaking in horror, then they stagger over the the other side of the political spectrum with "The Nazi Model for Outcome-Based Education." ErinB, are you really that fixated on communism and independent women as imminent threats to all that is godly and American (the two being synonomous, naturally)?

[Natalie]

Ok ErinB and Whit, sorry I'm kind of butting into your conversation, but I have to say something. I see what you're saying about accepting Jesus; it's kind of like a ticket to heaven (this is putting it in a simple way). I understand that this is what certain denominations teach, Baptists for one. I'm a Roman Catholic, and we're never taught that exactly, though I see exactly where you are coming from. I have one question though. What about non-Christians, namely Jews? They don't believe that Christ was the son of God at all, so they have not accepted Jesus. Which, by your philosophy, means they will not get into heaven. I have a problem with this because to me, that means that every man, woman, and child that was murdered during the Holocaust went to hell, simply because they were not Christian. There seems to be something wrong with this philosophy. Am I wrong in thinking this, or is there another branch to your thinking? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."

[ErinB]

LOL I didn't browse that part. I just showed it to Whit because there's stuff there that she could use (verses). I looked it up quickly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ErinB, are you really that fixated on communism and independent women as imminent threats to all that is godly and American (the two being synonomous, naturally)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hun, at 16 I haven't had time to be fixated on anything. If you want a better website, I can find one. That was aimed at FatLilPony for the verses, not the other content.

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[FatLilPony]

Huntseat-Gurl-

I'm thinking that if you take GOD into your heart, you are accepted into Heaven, after all, Jesus is just God in a man's form. I've wondered this to, but that's my conclusion /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Big things happen to small people."

[ErinB]

I think FatLilPony's theory has something to it. And huntseat-gurl's question is hard to answer, since Jesus was a Jew after all.

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[Josh]

hey guys. i don't ride horses so i'm probably breaking some law right now by entering my input in here but i'm friends with FatlilPony and i love God a bunch. and i signed up for this JUST so i can talk about God in hre. so leave me alone! j/k. erin B has got some awsome awsome views on it. everything she said i agree with one hundred percent. so i'm pretty much gonna repeat her! j/k. well first off. as strange as it may seem to people just begining in their faith or not very strong in it yet (by His account not anybody elses) the only way to eternal life is through belief in Him. that seems straight forward but when you think about all the wonderful people in the world (that's another thing, we're all filthy sinners, haha. sounds mean but we are!) that don't believe. where do they go? well, as mean as it may seem to us, you have to believe in him. it's not up to us to say 'that's not fair, they were nice'. it doesn't matter what we as humans thing. it's up to God. we might not understand it, but he does and that's all that matters. we can't comprehend everything he can. and when did he say being a good person is the key to eternal life? i also really don't think we should look at heaven like a 'key' (can we say contradiction?) or a 'rode' or a 'destination'. sure we all want to get there, and it's gonna be amazing, ( as in too much for our little tiny minds to handle) but it's not about that. he's YOUR God. serve him because it's right and because it's what he wants. once you have a great relationship with him it's not a chore or even a task. it's a joy to live by his teachings and praise him and bring others to him and live for him, find all you happyness in him and when you have troubles...that's right kids. turn to him. (did i have enough 'ands' in there?) i keep reading stories about how there was a 'chritian' person who came into their town and robbed them blind and adultered with their friends stepfathers brother. (j/k) of course there are! if you're a con artist what better cover up than being a religious leader. everybody wants to get to heaven and well golly gee the leader of a christian organization is here. why wouldn't you trust them? it's horrible for someone to pose and do that but i'm not supprised. all that proves is that a con artist was smart enough to realize that people trust very religious and spirtual people. it's horrible! but i think i should be quiet now ok? well give me some feedback please. sorry if i got goin a little to much there.

[tle]

"Where do the non-christians go?".... to THEIR place!! Non-Christians don't believe in Heaven. Why would they want to go somewhere they don't believe in? (that one was specifically aimed at Josh). Not everyone believes in Heaven or God or Jesus... plain and simple. It's been this way for thousands of years. If someone doesn't believe in something (Satan for example) then they have no fear of that, or as in the case of Heaven, no desire to go there. People have their own beliefs. It's great to talk about differences and explore what different religions offer and believe in... I'm all for that. But the basic answer to huntseat-gurl's question is that the Jews went where they believed they would go. Sorry, you'll have to ask a Jew exactly where that is... I'm not up on Jewish religious philosophies. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[Everythingbutwings]

and seems to be back at arguing semantics. Many people have written quite eloquently and thoughtfully on this thread. We have shared our views, agreed and disagreed.

I am Catholic, my husband is Jewish. Decency and kindness are the same in either religion. Spouting off that there is only one true way to believe is ridiculous.

I believe in a benevolent god. I had better or I am in a world of hurt. Follow the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you was drilled into my head by my mother when I was a child.

I am thankful for a life that allows me to have horses in it. I work to have my horses and am grateful to have that opportunity but I realize that, if I lived in a different part of the world, I might not be able to enjoy the things that I care about in my current situation.

I thank God for life but not for what I am able to make of my life. I do not blame God for the mistakes I make in life. Additionally, I do not credit God with all that is good in me yet take personal blame for all I do that is evil.

The more I find out about Judaism, (Jews, as well as Muslims believe in a heaven) the more "Christian" that religion seems by my definition and the more nauseating the bible thumping holier than thou groups seem. This is not directed at any particular person responding here.

Let people believe what they are able to and be human enough to be grateful that you can believe the particular dogma that you embrace.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Jul. 17, 2001 at 10:29 AM.]

[Urchin Club]

Most people assume WWJD is for "What would Jesus do?" But the initials really stand for "What would Jesus drive?"

One theory is that Jesus would tool around in an old Plymouth
because "the Bible says God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden in a Fury."

But in Psalm 83, the Almighty clearly owns a Pontiac and a Geo. The passage urges the Lord to "pursue your enemies with your Tempest
and terrify them with your Storm."

Perhaps God favors Dodge pickup trucks, because Moses' followers
are warned not to go up a mountain "until the Ram's horn sounds a long blast."

Meanwhile, Moses rode an old British motorcycle, as evidenced by a Bible passage declaring that "the roar of Moses' Triumph is heard in
the hills."

Joshua drove a Triumph sports car with a hole in its muffler: "Joshua's Triumph was heard throughout the land."

And, following the Master's lead, the Apostles car pooled in a Honda ....."The Apostles were in one Accord."!!!!

[ErinB]

...And still no one has bitten anyone else's head off. Cool board. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Anyway I just got back from the dentist and I'm sort of...numb on the left side of my face up to my eyebrows, soooo I don't think I have anything intellectual to add right now!

PS: Thanks Josh. Have I met you before? Actually, I don't think you'll answer that since you're not an actual member. May I recommend horseback riding as an ideal recreational sport? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[ErinB]

LOL Believe It. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If it seems like everyone is coming your way, chances are you're in the wrong lane.

[Josh]

To: tle.
When i was giving my oppinion on 'where do non-christians go'. i was trying to give my answer to a christian (FatlilPony). so that means she believes in a heaven and wonders what will happen to good people who don't believe. i wasn't trying to explain my view to a non-christian.( you're right, they might not believe in what i'm talking about) sorry.

to Moose.
i agree with you about 'actions speak louder than words'. but when you're a christian you aren't just saying it. you live it, feel it, speak it. your actions represent what you believe, lots of time without a real effort from the person, belieiving in Him so strongly can just kinda change your way of life naturally. it sounds melodramatic but I'm pretty sure it's true. in other words if someone says that they are a believer in christ but don't back it up with the way they think and act than they may still believe in him, but they aren't acting as he would like them too. but we all are victim to that so...

ok, pointed at noone. it really seems unfair to us a lot of the time because we feel like if someones a good person they should recieve the reward.(ourselves included.) the reward could be anything but now i'm talking about Heaven. i don't know if all christians believe this (christians, because that's what this whole board is about) but being a good person is not what 'gets you into heaven'. Jesus said that all your good deads and works mean nothing if you do not have faith in the Lord. i don't think that he meant that it's just as bad as being a horrible person. personally i think it's great regardless of what you believe in to be a good person. but it just means that in Gods eyes, sure he wants you to be good, but for the right reason. because you are serving Him. i'm not trying to put down what other people believe, but i'm a christian and this is what i believe. i guess it's what God was trying to teach us with all the stories about the Pharisees. they were incredibly good people, they followed all the rules and comandments. but in Matthew 5:20 Jesus says "But I warn you-unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!"
now i don't think he means to be more strict in your lifestyle than those two groups, but that having faith is more important. ok, i think i'll get off my soap box now. sorry about that. write back.

[tle]

Josh, I completely understood your earlier post. I was really ASKING you... what do you do when you are talking to a non-christian? Right now... what would you say (if anything) to me, someone who was raised Catholic who no longer follows any Christian dogma. I believe I'm a good person, follow the rule that I do no harm to others, am compassionate, etc. but do not believe in Jesus (as the literal son of god). Of course I also don't believe in a Christian heaven either. I do believe I am being rewarded in this lifetime for being a "good person".

I'm trying not to phrase this in a way that it comes across as confrontational, because that's NOT how I mean it. If you would say nothing, that's fine. I guess I've known far too many people who's Christian faith is as strong as yours seems that would JUMP at the chance to tell me how wrong my beliefs are. so I'm curious as to what your reaction would be... sorry... you're the guinea pig! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess I've known far too many people who's Christian faith is as strong as yours seems that would JUMP at the chance to tell me how wrong my beliefs are. so I'm curious as to what your reaction would be... sorry... you're the guinea pig! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I, personally, jump at the chance to tell others about God etc. and that may come across as telling you how wrong you (not YOU, just a general statement) are. I wouldn't mean it like that, but sure, we're enthusiastic. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(PS: Cute little ancedote. A few friends from my youth group told me about this. A while ago, before I came to that church, they went on a trip to a large theme park. Well, a combination of enthusiasm and inherent goofiness had them singing- loudly- some contemporary Christian music. The guy that was working (I think) a monorail ride asked the group why they were so happy. They replied, "because God loves us and he loves you too!" Well it sounds cheesy, but the guy ended up becoming a Christian! So hey, if it works... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

As for your previous questions, tle, I'm really not sure how to answer them. And yes, I know you were sort of talking to Josh but I've never minded butting into conversations. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I mean, if I ran into someone who had as strong beliefs about their religion as I did about mine, that would definately be difficult... I've never had that happen to me before, believe it or not!

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If you have to drive me crazy, can you at least use a BMW?

[Snowbird]

Wars have been waged in the name of all religions. People have been murdered and tortured in the name of all religions. It is never a good concept to believe there is only one way to believe in one God.

We can all be proud of our religious conviction but any condemnation of other beliefs is totally uncivilized. No one knows for a "FACT" what the criteria are for going to heaven (if there is one). Because we are not God, and we do not have all the knowledge of all things, we can never be certain exactly what name God would prefer, nor what methods of serving him he would prefer.

We were all granted by God the right to think and have opinions which is what separate us from the critters of the world. Would he have granted us this privilege and never expected us to use it to the best way possible.

And, who is there wise enough to be positive that what they believe to be true is the whole truth.

[tle]

ErinB ... no problem butting in. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You said that you would jump at the chance to tell someone about your faith, but would you also listen to someone (with an open, non-judgemental mind) to someone telling you about theirs with the same enthusiasm and strength? THAT may be the question.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And, who is there wise enough to be positive that what they believe to be true is the whole truth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah ha! But that, dear snowbird, is the center of the problem. Beliefs can be so overwhelming that the believer IS 100% positive of what they believe in. Not saying that anyone here is wacko, but do think of all the wackos out there (Koresh, Manson, etc.) and their followers. They were/are 100% positive of what they believe in and that is it true and the whole truth. The balancing act comes when you can have that kind of belief for yourself, but allow others to have the same strength of belief in something different. Not exactly mankind's greatest trait. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[Josh]

To answer tle's question, 'what would i say to a non-christian' and i think we're still talking about going to heaven or not right? well, i have a couple of friends who believe just as strongly about there not being a God as I do about the opposite. personally i just kinda don't talk about it with them because they're my friends and i kinda don't want it to get 'messy' if you know what i mean. but that's not the way i usually look at it. because there's such a joy in telling others about what you know (in your own heart) to be true. and what joy it might could bring to their life. also you're very right about how the person that believes (in whatever) IS 100 % sure in their hearts about it. but, back to the main question. i would probably just tell you my beliefs and hear all of yours (with an open mind /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). but for a long time i wouldn't really discuss who does or doesn't go to heaven cause i just said 'that's His dicision' (which it is) so i'm not gonna worry about it. but i've been reading the bible a lot more lately and i've found that it is very clear about what's going to happen (that is if you believe in the bible) it pretty much says that if you beleive you'll come and live with him. (the sins we comit here on earth are paid for by Jesus, jeez i love that guy /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). that's all well and good with a christian, but to someone who doesn't believe that any of the things i just mentioned even exist. it's kinda hard to explin it to them. but erin is right, we're sorry if we seem really in your face with it. but it just makes us sooooooo happy to have that in our lives, and for me to have it as the reason that i live. we want to share that with everyone so they can have it too. a lot of people seem to think that we do it out of guilt or close mindedness, but we've all asked ourselves before (with an open mind) which way to go. we made a disicion to believe in Him just like you did not to. sorry i got of the subject again, wow this IS pretty hard to answer. but since you don't believe what i do even exists, i'd just give you my beliefs. and take in yours. not real enlightening but there ya go. and just out of curiosity tle. what do you believe? after you die? how the earth was created? and also what exactly IS an open, non-judgemental mind? because when i explain how i believe to my non-christian friends, i think sometimes that they are the ones not really listening and then accusing me of being close minded. (this isn't directed at you by the way. you're very open minded. i mean come on, you ASKED me to explain something simple, that always turns into a novel) haha, my turn to have the guinea pig /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Snowbird]

Mohammed and Jesus had the same ancesters, and Moses belongs to both of them. The people who believe in Buddha are just as convinced and just as devoted to their beliefs. They all interpret the same philosophies with a slightly different emphasis. The Mormans have a set of "latter day saints" who are just as worthy because they preached no evil messages and simply amplified the message from Moses.

I think that God does not get upset or that he/she does not make judgments based on how each chooses to honor him. I believe in a loving and forgiving God who would not punish someone who meant no harm but perhaps called him by a different name and went to a different building or perhaps no building at all to honor him. Our native Americans who reverence the earth itself and do no harm to our earth, who live in balance with nature may be even more honored than those of us who use the elements that corrupt the earth and pollute it.

The point is that know one knows what God thinks, so no one has the right to judge which is right and which is wrong. He has sent us teachers who try to explain to us and we foolish beings that we are then place those teachers too high.

So yes! enjoy being a Christian, and be happy with your faith in your chosen path but please don't condemn others and don't discriminate against others who may have found another road. No where in any teachings is there a statement which says there is only one route and one way to the house of God.

[egontoast]

OOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....I didn't even know there was an LSD church... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif