Do Equestrians who are Christian exist? [Archive] - Page 2

Spyder

Jul. 21, 2001, 09:47 AM

My own experience with "Christians" has been rather limited. I was a Sunday school-going child who, after one summer camp exposure, embraced the "born again" dogma at age 13. At age 14 I my brief experience taught me that the "born again Christians" that I had the privilege of knowing were the most bigoted lot of hypocrites that I had ever encountered and quickly began examining the beliefs that they (and I) subscribed to. I found the Bible taken literally as absolute truth, shall we say unbelievable? However allegorically it was another thing. I decided that the "Christians" I knew were able to twist any Bible verse to match any occasion and mostly employed their quotations to suppress another group of people, or to use as a justification for their bigotry, or for their own greed. I became a seeker of truth and discovered the teachings of all of the great teachers have similar elements.

In my adulthood I am generally tolerant, but still I still mistrust anyone loudly proclaiming his or her Christianity. And find extremely offensive any attempt at proselytizing. A quote that sums up my feeling about any religious zealots -- Christian or otherwise -- is, "Seek the company of those who seek the truth. But run like h*ll from those who've found it."

Beyond that, I don't think that "god" would approve of bigotry in any form and would frown on the invocation of his/her name to harm anything or anyone. Just my opinion.

On the homosexuality issue. I have read a few places about some Native American tribes' view of homosexuality that, to me, makes a whole lot more sense than the Christian Biblical negative writing/interpretation. Not being NA, I would not know first hand, but their reverence for the Earth and all that inhabits it would lead one to believe that the attitude of tolerance seems in character. The idea was that the homosexual individuals in the "olden days" were not to be scorned, but honored because within one single human were elements of both male and female.

Moonshine

Jul. 21, 2001, 02:19 PM

I am a Christian and although I would prefer to view Gods creation from the back of a horse on the top of the mountain looking down at the church, I do sometimes actually go (much to my elderly mom's delite) I have attended John Lyons Symposiums and I guarantee he is a practicing Christian. We prayed every morning with him for the safety of the rider and the horse. Its interesting that you brought this up. Have you ever watched the Rodeo on TNN or attended any of the rodeos, many of the Bull Riders and Bare Back and Saddle Bronc riders visably thank God for a safe ride. Personally, I think its cool and alot better show of sportsmanship than we see in some of the other sports.

Josh

Jul. 21, 2001, 04:59 PM

Hey. OK well first off. i am a mormon. and i've explained what i believe. there are a lot of misconceptions about what we believe but i've been to pretty much all christian denominations' churchs, and there really are no obvious clashes. (of course there are differences but pretty consistent). but i also am thinking about changing from mormonism to epscopaleanism (spelling?). but i don't think it makes all the much of a difference to God, as long as it's for Him. and about Him/Her. i completely agree. how do we know if He's a man or woman. personally i think he's neither because he's not a human. He's not a person.(all this is my oppinion of course). He's a spirit. i just call Him a He because that's how God presented himself in the bible. 'Father'. 'Heavenly Father'. it might not mean that he's literally a man. but it doesn't matter. ok, everytime i have a talk about God with non-christians they bring up the issue that we stop condeming them. i'm really sorry. i don't mean to do that. that's His job. (i'm not saying he's gonna do it to you, but to who he chooses). and about how "there's nowhere where it says 'there's only one way to heaven'". in the bible it says it plenty of times. Jesus said the only way to the Father is through him.(Jesus and God are one in the same, but that would take a really long time to explain). in Acts 4:12 it says 'There is salvation in no one else! There is no other name in all of heaven for people to call on to save them'. that means belief in Him is 'how you get there'. (although i don't think you should believe in Him because of this big reward you get. do it cause you believe it. sounds obvious but...). i'm not trying to convert anyone, these are just my beliefs. and snowbird. you're right. He doesn't cast judgement on how people choose to honor Him. He just asks that we do Honor and worship Him. the most christian man i have ever seen, with the strongest faith and the most understanding is tatooed all over his body. many of my fellow mormons think this is wrong to 'defile' your body like that. but every single tatoo is a reference to a teaching of or in praise of God. i think it's freakin awsome! personally i wouldn't want to get a tatoo, but to each his own. and about how many christians are hypocrites. i know i am. i mean, i sit here declaring what a 'wonderful' christian i am, and then as soon as i get done with this i'll probably go and sin. God says not to sin...i sin. then i declare what a great follower of Him i am. hmmmmm. i'm sure He's loving that. but he understands we are humans, we sin. i mean we live on a planet in open difiance of Him, come on. we just need to try not to. if i seem intolerant or biggoted agaist people that don't believe, i'm sorry. you're right, that's not what he wants. that's not how he is either. we sometimes think that our ways are more 'logical', and more 'intelectual' than His. and we say He is unfair. but we don't know more than Him. His ways of 'putting' someone in hell, while he's this all loving God seems horrible to us. a philosopher says 'one can't be loving and all powerful at the same time'. but how do we know more about being loving than the One who created love itself? Oh! i almost forgot. (sorry this is so long by the way). but i know some churchs (catholics i think) say that animals can't go to heaven because they have no soul. well, i can't really find the scrpiture in the bible (sorry), but i've read in there before, that animals do infact go to heaven.( i think, i'm not entirely sure.). but one way or the other. it matters to us soooo much now wheather they're gonna be there or not. but i think that when you get there, even if they just died and ended. Heaven is such a wondeful and amazing place that, cruel as it sounds, it won't matter. it's the 'end of suffering' in heaven. the things that matter here so much might not then. (i'm probably going to get in a lot of trouble for that because this IS a horse web site. but come one... it's freakin Heaven!) on the homsexuality thing, i think it's wrong from a religious standpoint because God created woman as mans companion and vice versa. and there are verses in the bible talking about how men and women burned with lust for one another and how God saw it as very shameful. once again, I'M not judging anyone. i would be your friend and love you if you were a homosexual, athiest, womanizer. (things that i really believe against). i'm just saying how He says people should act and believe. but if you are athiest, everything i'm saying really shouldn't bother you... you don't believe it exists right? ok one last thing. are people that don't believe in God threatend when others who do believe talk about it? i say this because people who don't believe sometimes say 'you believe what you want to , i'll believe what i want to. let's both just shut up.' i'm not saying anyone is threatend. i'm just asking. thanks for listening to my lecture, haha j/k. sorry it's so long. write me back:)

Kellybird

Jul. 21, 2001, 06:08 PM

Josh--aren't your fingers tired yet?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You've typed more in the time you've been here than some people have in YEARS! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ErinB

Jul. 21, 2001, 06:33 PM

He must eat that new Wheaties power crunch cereal. I don't even think I've ever typed that much [at once]. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If you have to drive me crazy, can you at least use a BMW?

Heidi

Jul. 21, 2001, 06:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>on the homsexuality thing, i think it's
wrong from a religious standpoint because God created woman as mans companion and vice versa. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Equally, perhaps your version of God also created homosexuals; you know, there are many clergy globally who'd also disagree with your statement above.

As a 'spiritual atheist', no I'm not threatened by the passion and vociferousness of your convictions - I am, though, annoyed when I read statements like the above.

"Mommy, does it really matter?" - Sumo toddler, age 3

Snowbird

Jul. 21, 2001, 07:53 PM

For example if we assume that we go to heaven then if we have been married and separated by death several times when we go to heaven our multiple spouses are there. So if you are allowed to be a polygamist in heaven, then why is it wrong here on earth?

If God is both male and female then by logical reasoning bi-sexuals are closer to God. And if God is both male and female then what is the opposite sex?

And Jesus also said my father's house has many mansions, and he sent Jesus here to teach the Jews as a Jew for the Jews. So does that mean that God is really Jewish? Jesus did not discriminate against anyone except the venders in the Temple.
It can be argued that he was sent because God was sorry he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins of the flesh. He also taught that a church was wherever people met in the name of his father. Where did Jesus ever say he was God? If he came back would he be a Christian or a Jew?

Did Jesus invest the Pope with the authority of God on earth? Would Jesus prefer the Orhtodox Christians where priests can be married? Would Jesus approve of the Vatican? Would he want to see a government which uses the donations to gather wealth and power? Would Jesus prefer the Protestant sects of Christianity?

Mohammed taught that Ishmael was the legal first born of Abraham and therefore he was the chosen one. Mohammed did not choose but accepted Moses and Jesus.

The Latter Day Saints said that there was another family besides Noah that was saved in the flood and they founded the religion here. The Native Americans have a Legend of the Great White father and some speculate that during the three days before the resurrection Jesus came here to them.

Who are we based on what, to say that all these different faiths are wrong? We can believe what we wish and that freedom of the spirit is Methodist. I was a portrait painter and the Baptists believe that is an act of vanity but I still love my mother who became a Baptist. Even Peter and Paul did not agree, they argued whether it was necessary to be a Jew first and then a Christian.
I taught Sunday School at a Presbyterian Church and they welcomed my Jewish husband as a blood relative of Jesus.

Mary and Joseph had more children after Jesus was born and there is only a record of maybe one believing in Jesus as a Rabbi and teacher. So if God can tolerate that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were entitled to be free why should we choose to believe there is only one way and one road to one church.

Josh

Jul. 22, 2001, 09:44 AM

ok. about homosexuality. really, i don't feel all THAT strongly about the issue, i'm not all that worried about it. but i said that because i believe in the bible as the word of God. and in Leviticus 18:22 it says 'Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin'. that's all. i'm not going to go up to a gay/lesbian person and tell them 'oh that's horrible', but i DO think it's wrong, sorry.

Polygamy happens over and over in the bible. however that doesn't mean it's right. lots of people murdered in the bible too. i think it's not right to do it out of our own desires to have multiple wives. but in those days, (i'm told) the only way a woman could really have a stable environment was to have a husband who supported her. i once heard a priest talk about how at certain times it is ordained by God for a person to have multiple wives. but i don't know??? i wouldn't want to. but if you believe your God is asking you to do something like that. you probably would do it. i'm not saying all polygamists were told by God, i'm sure many of them did it because of their desire to have many partners.

i don't think God's male and female. i really doubt 'He's' either. i mean, do ya think spirits have sex organs?

i don't think God or Jesus are jewish. Jesus was a jew... he wasn't Jewish. (him being a jew is determined by his family background and maybe geographic location, not realigion) if he was Jewish, that means that he believed he was not the literal son of God and that would go against what he taught.

i agree that there's multiple ways to get to heaven. but i (once again) really believe in the bible as the word of God. (sure, some things were interpreted wrong, but for the most part, it's the G-man). and it says the only way to eternal life is through belief in Him. that doesn't mean you have to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, Mormon, or any other set way. it just means that according to the bible, you must have faith in Him.

and yes, Jesus was a great teacher. and who knows all the reasons he was sent here for. (teaching was definately a big one). but his main purpose was to save humanity from their sins.

now i don't know as much about my religion as many others who aren't even christian that i've talked to. but i'm pretty sure The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormon) was formed in the 1800's by Joseph Smith from a vision of angels and revelation. not at the time of the great flood. but there's a lot of stuff i don't know about it.

and of course God can 'tolerate' that we're free to believe in what we want to. He's not forcing anyone. in my oppinion He gave us our freedom.

oh and to get back to the homosexual debate. i think that someone becoming a homosexual could just be a chemical/hormonal imbalance in the brain making someone desire someone else of the same sex. i've heard other theories that it comes from perversion and that people want to do it because it's 'new and exciting'. personally, i don't know. maybe someone can control it, maybe they can't.

i'm not trying to cast anyone down. i am just explaining the things that I think (from being taught) are wrong. it's how you (and I) believe that closemindedness and bigotry are wrong. does that mean YOU are prejudice against someone because of their racial/philosophical 'misconceptions'. no, it just means you think those things are wrong.

[This message was edited by Josh on Jul. 22, 2001 at 12:53 PM.]

RumoursFollow

Jul. 22, 2001, 10:36 AM

I know I'm coming into this topic about 14 pages late, but I just wanted to say that I'm christian! In fact, I'm an ordained minister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heidi

Jul. 22, 2001, 11:15 AM

It's interesting how one could claim that they believe the bible to be the word of god (and its denouncement of homosexuality) and at the same time, on the issue of polygamy, form an opinion independent of the 'word of god'. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>oh and to get back to the homosexual debate. i think that someone becoming a homosexual could just be a chemical/hormonal imbalance in the brain making someone desire someone else of the same sex. i've heard other theories that it comes from perversion and that people want to do it because it's 'new and exciting'. personally, i don't know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that we are now randomly espousing scientifically refuted theories, not to mention morally reprehensible ones, as expressed above, is offensive. I could just as easily, and ignorantly, attribute that same chemical imbalance and preversion to the religious -- and it'd be equally offensive.

"Mommy, does it really matter?" - Sumo toddler, age 3

Kellybird

Jul. 22, 2001, 02:29 PM

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Go heidi, go heidi...good point you've made.

bronwyn

Jul. 22, 2001, 02:51 PM

i think particularliy for you younger folks it may help to pursue some of the ideas discussed here by exploring some literature on religion in general. the books that follow are very accessible comparative religious studies and some examine the sociological and psychological elements of religious experience specific to christian thought: A History of God by Karen Armstrong,The World's Religions by Houston Smith, The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James, and The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber. Also the Oxford Companion to Christian Thought is an excellent reference to delve into just how diverse Christian doctrine is. An indispesable book for anyone interested in the human spirit and modern culture is Re-Enchanting Humanity by Murray Bookchin. This last, along with the body of ideas developed by Mr. Bookchin as to how to achieve a rational, meaningful society via enlightened humanism, is my bible. Anyone intersted in further reading or discussion please email me-for the Great Ideas are, right after the horses, what make me tick!

[This message was edited by bronwyn on Jul. 22, 2001 at 05:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by bronwyn on Jul. 22, 2001 at 06:01 PM.]

Sea Dog

Jul. 22, 2001, 04:00 PM

I have been reading the posts on this subject. I have visited this forum many times, but I have never joined in. I have read the comments on the topic of homosexuality. Some of the posts state that this is a choice. I can honestly say that it doesn't have to be that way. It was not a choice for me. I was attracted to men before I even knew what sex was. I have tried to "make myself straight", but that doesn't work. It only made me miserable. I am still pretty much in the closet because of society's view. However, I have reached a point in my life now that I know that I am happy with who I am and that is all that matters. I am 100% christian. I have worked in the ministry. I don't think that my sexuality has anything to do with my love of God. I don't think that homosexuality is from God either. Just like I don't think that God sends storms to "teach people a lesson" or that God "gives people cancer" to humble them. I think that we live in a world that has flaws, but I think that God loves us even if we are "flawed". I know that God doesn't want me to be gay. I also know that God doesn't want me to be near-sighted, but I wear glasses(or contacts) just the same. Man was made in the image of God. He made us perfect, but sin was introduced into the world in the Garden of Eden. Once sin entered the picture nothing was perfect anymore. That doesn't mean that He doesn't love us. I know that when I became born again, I was accepted into God's kingdom. When I die, I will go to Heaven. My sexuality will not stop me from going to heaven anymore than my glasses will stop me. They are just "flaws".

I don't know if this means anything to anyone, but I just wanted to state how I feel.

elizabeth

Jul. 22, 2001, 04:07 PM

Josh, good for you for taking the time to articulate your views. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do not agree with all your views (in some instances just b/c I am too lazy to have thought out some of those views and formed my own view), but I am impressed with the facts that (a) you have views, (b) you have "reasons" for your views (I put "reasons" in quotes b/c I am not sure if they are reasons, explanations, or justifications, and I am sure some would think that your reasons are NOT reasons, but you get the point), and (c) you are able (in MY opinion ) to articulate your views in a way that did not strike me as particularly ( note the use of the word "particularly" - I did that to be sensitive to those who might have been offended! ) offensive (meaning, you stated that your views were merely that (as opposed to black/white fact meriting absolute respect), and you took care to waffle, as opposed to stridently raging against those who engage in acts that you oppose). /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I personally am disinclined to try to explain my religious views on this BB (even though I am a Christian equestrian) b/c (a) it would take effort and I, as aforementioned, am lazy, (b) I have not thought enough about my views to be able to articulate them as impressively as you have yours, and (c) I have NO DESIRE to deal with the riff-raff that a religious discussion would involve. Meaning, it is much easier to rip apart someone else's views than articulate and defend one's own views, and I just would not want to be "rip apart" fodder for someone else.

As a final (insightful /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) thought, I offer the following: A religious view is like a belly-button - almost everyone has one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

elizabeth

Jul. 22, 2001, 04:11 PM

Sea Dog, thanks for sharing your perspective. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dogchushu

Jul. 22, 2001, 04:32 PM

Thanks for sharing Sea Dog. Like the previous poster, I appreciate your perspective.

Perhaps it's not my place to say this because I am not a homosexual, but it concerns me that you feel your sexuality is a "flaw." I don't believe that homosexuality is a flaw or a problem for God. Yes, it's a problem for many people. But I view those people as flawed for their intolerance.

I guess your post just hit home because I have a very dear friend who's currently struggling with his own sexuality and feeling such incredible guilt over it. And it really pains me to see such a good friend hate a part of himself.

I love God and I love my church, but I realize that, while God is infallible, the church is not. It and its doctrines were created by fallible... flawed... human beings. To me, people can make errors in their interpretation of God's word. And I believe many church's veiw of homosexuality as a sin is a flawed interpretation.

In my view (which I know many do not share and that's their choice), cheating on a loving spouse is a sin, using people and casting them aside is a sin, but, in my opinion, homosexuality is not.

Sea Dog

Jul. 22, 2001, 04:39 PM

I don't think that homosexuality is a sin. Not at all. I do think it is a "flaw". But that doesn't make me feel bad or anything. I don't feel bad because I need glasses to see. My eyes are flawed. I don't feel bad about that either.

tle

Jul. 23, 2001, 07:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Big Gold stars to everyone on their civility...but then again, maybe we won't hand them out until the first practicing Pagan has their say and everyone responds politely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've already had that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif To answer Josh's question...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> tle. what do you believe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's my story. I was raised a practicing Roman Catholic. My father was an alter boy when we was little even. My mother converted when I was little. We lived in northern Utah where most of my mom's family still lives and yes, they are mormon. I have family that have enough strength in their LDS faith to go on missions.

However, I have never felt all that comfortable in church. I have often just blow this off as being fairly non-religious. I still put "Catholic" on my dog tags, but that was about it... until about a year ago. Granted that's not long, but ever since I feel like a weight has been lifted! I stumbled across some Pagan (specifically Wiccan) website, did some reading (Scott Cunningham's books are wonderful btw), and while my personable beliefs aren't 100% tied to Wiccan philosophy, it's close.

What do I believe? I believe there is a Spirit who is present in everything around us, and reveals to each person as that person is best suited to "see" ... whether that be as God, Jesus, Mohammad, Budda, Brigid, Diana, Isis. For me, I usually don't have a name... or a sex (which is where my beliefs differ from Wicca a bit as Wiccans believe in a god and a goddess). The Spirit just is. The elements (Earth, Air, Fire, and Water) are an extension of the Spirit... in my mind, much like Jesus is of God.

What do I think happens when I die? I go to Summerland... a place of peace and rest. When rested, I will be reincarnated onto this earth (possible elsewhere, but I'm still working on that belief) to (hopefully) learn a new lesson... vs. repeating one I didn't successfully learn in a previous life. Life IS. That is my belief. I live for this life... not for an eventual reward. I follow the Wiccan Rede ("An it harm none, do as you will") and the Rule of Three. I believe in the sanctity of all life, but I still eat meat. I try to revere the earth, but know that I am not perfect. I do not worship Satan (a judeo-christian idea)... I have held rituals on special days (Sabbats) and for the Full Moons. And yes, I often wear a pentacle.

A year is not a long period of time and I am still learning (and doubt that learning will ever stop). But I have found a faith that I truly believe I have always followed... just never been able to put a name to it (I was the one who always fed the horses on Sunday morning so I could be at the barn when everyone else was going to church). And yes, I can definitely understand born again whatevers and their desire to "shout it from the rooftops"... as that is a feeling that I often have. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Any questions?

As for open mindedness and what that is.... I guess as we've discovered it's hard to define. I think we've all done a pretty good job. When you can state what you think is right, but listen... REALLY listen to another person, even if you don't agree... even if what they say sets off every bell in your heart... I think that has a lot to do with it.

As for non-christians being closed minded when you explain your beliefs... I think that might be a self-preservation thing popping up. Let's face it, there are more places in this country where being non-christian is uncomfortable at best (scarey and personally dangerous at worst) than where it is accepted even if not agreed with. Feeling outnumbered and often hearing the closed-minded christians stating how wrong one is, tends to make a person put VERY open christians all in one group. It's not right, but unfortunately it does happen.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Snowbird

Jul. 23, 2001, 07:36 PM

We need not discuss what we individually believe. That would be as unproductive as attacking individuals. I don't think that anyone needs to defend their point of view but rather discuss the various similarities and philosophies. I think there are more of those than you all imagine.

For example someone mentioned that Jesus was a Jew but not Jewish, well that's just plain silly. Being a Jew and being Jewish are not different sides although it is possible for a gentile to act Jewish, it is not possible for a Jew to not be Jewish. This is not necessarily a negative concept and could be a compliment. And, if Jesus was a Jew because of his family well then how does that jibe with the fact that God is his father unless God is a Jew. And, even more if Jesus is God then he has to be a Jew.

Jesus is descended from David an adulterer who stole someone else's wife. So Jesus if he is God has to be patient and forgiving with all people who are "flawed" since his own relatives seem to have some problems.

If homosexuality is some malfunction of the brain or body then we have to believe that God is also not perfect since we are all created in his image and created by him for some reason. I doubt that God has played a practical joke on mankind. Now on the other hand if we are here to learn humility and truth in this life then perhaps we were meant to understand that all the variations created by the Creator have a reason and a good purpose.

Why does it matter whether Jesus was the message or the messenger? What he taught was not to make judgements against people for their differences. So if someone lives their life in a way that meets those high standards do you really believe that God would care if you did it to follow Mohammed, Moses, Jesus, Abraham or Buddha? And, if Jesus is God then he would agree. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ErinB

Jul. 23, 2001, 08:01 PM

Errf, I'd like to try and reply but some of this stuff is going wayyyyy over my head here. Sorry... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Erin Lizzy
Visit my Website (http://www.virtue.nu/sugabebe/index.htm)!
If you have to drive me crazy, can you at least use a BMW?

FatLilPony

Jul. 23, 2001, 09:57 PM

Accidently, but I did /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He's my bud from school /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Time heals all wounds, except abcesses"-Me

And-I'm not sure if I've spelled that incorrectly, because, get this-there is NO spell checker on the boards! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Josh

Jul. 24, 2001, 08:38 AM

ok, being 'Jewish' is a religion. you don't just become a religious follower because that's what your parents believed. Being a Jew just means your parents are Hebrew. and his mother was. (he had no mortal father). and plus if he was Jewish (meaning he practiced Judism), then he believed himself to be a liar. he said he was the literal son of God.

Hey tle. glad you're back. that all sounds prettycool. thanks for writing back. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and as far as being created in God's image. my oppinion on it is (and the bible's) that we are created in His image, but we are not EXACTLY like Him. it just means we have some characteristics of Him. (if we choose to have them in our lives, love, forgiveness, etc.) but things used to be perfect (in the garden of eden) until WE as humans failed to be what God wanted. that's why there's sinning. not because God is imperfect and we're like Him.

And i'm really sorry to have offended anyone with my comment about homosexuality. i did not mean it was some kind of malfunction or 'mutation' that makes people feel this way. i think some people just feel this way. why would it be immpossible for someone to just like another of the same sex. yes, i do think it's wrong (in the eyes of God) but look, so does a homosexual, (sea dog, i'm not trying to group you into something, i'm just proving that there is SOMEONE who feels the same as i do coming from another vantage point). but the way sea dog said it was awsome. i mean, God doesn't like it, but that's not the most important thing. sea dog believes in God. someone being a homosexual doesn't make them go to hell. God might not like it but there's sooooo much that we ALL do that he doesn't like.

thanks elizabeth! that's really nice. you should talk about your beliefs too.

to heidi. i'm really really sorry. i didn't realize how stupid that was at the time. it sounded very different from how i believe. (no i'm not just trying to 'smooth it over'). but you're very right. homosexuality isn't some plaige that captures it's victims to teach them a lesson, just as heterosexuality isn't. it's just a physical attraction. sorry. but about me being 'independant of the word of God on polygamy'. many people did have multiple wives in the bible, (just as many were murderers). but also in the bible it says to have ONE for your own. in the garden of eden He created out of one person, a mate, so they could share eachother. (this is why when people become married, they are 'as one flesh').

ok, i have a feealing this is gonna be a long oen too /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
according to the bible. Jesus was God in a mans form. there are three parts to God. The father (God himself) the son (Jesus Christ) and the holy spirit ( the spirit of God that He gives to everyone of us to help, guide, and uplift us). this is all kind of hard to comprehend. how can one thing be the same in three different forms. well 1: there is NO end to His power. 2: he does much more amazing things than this. like being able to talk to millions of people on the earth at the same time. and 3: He's freakin God! when He created the garden of eden everything was perfect, then, we sinned and fell from this perfect place into a world of sin and became mortal. then things got out of hand around the time of Noah and God had seen enough. so He 'erraticated' (for lack of my vocabulary) the wickedness of the world. but He told Noah afterward that He would never do this again. so when He saw fit He came down to our world to become one of us. "There are many humans that would become Gods, but only one God that would become human." He came down as Jesus Christ the son of the virgin Mary. and in His life here on earth, He changed everything. He taught people manythings (loving one another as yourself, etc.) but the most important thing He did was to die on the cross as a living sacrafice, 'taking up the slack' of all of our sins. now, it wasn't the physical anguish that he suffered on the cross that did it. lots of people have been crucified. but it was the mental anguish. he took on all of our sins and was completely seperated from God. He was completely alone. (the first thing that comes to mind is 'well then he must have gone to hell'. but the bible tells us that he returned to God and is at His right hand in the kingdom of heaven.) so therefore, he took the burden of our sins so we wouldn't have to. (ya see why i love this guy so much?) now that doesn't mean we get off scotch free, we still are responsible and must do the best that we can. but he did this so we can live with Him one day. ok, i'll shut up now. sorry again it's so long. write me back /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robby Johnson

Jul. 24, 2001, 09:03 AM

I think the way Sea Dog said it is NOT healthy and, as a homosexual man, it offends me. Because it reeks of internalized homophobia, which is what the conversion programs use in their attempts to "convert" homosexuals. Homosexuality is not a "flaw." It just is. And it always has been.

To be quite honest, I would be highly annoyed with God if he purposely put me on Earth to be a homosexual man just so I could endure discrimination and emotional pain and scarring for a lifetime.

What purpose would this serve me, then? To live each day questioning my existence? Or my role in an afterlife? We're all judged for our sins, according to the Bible. There are no VIP sections in heaven, as far as we know.

I think God always puts questions on us that we must bear, but I think if you're smart and really truly read between the lines and look at the messages that He's sending you, then the answers aren't too hard to identify.

I don't think something that is organic in nature can be attributed as a sin. Just like being born a Siamese twin or having six fingers isn't a "sin."

And Josh, it's "Episcopalian."

Robby

Everythingbutwings

Jul. 24, 2001, 09:11 AM

Back to the initial question.

"Do Equestrians who are Christian exist?"

Yes

Snowbird

Jul. 24, 2001, 10:17 AM

However, Judaism is a religion and Hebrew is a nationality. A Hebrew can belong and believe in any religion but a Jew chooses to be in the religion and at the age of 13 is accepted as a man in that religion. In the old testament God said all Hebrews who followed him should be circumsized. Now, Jesus was circumsized and he had his Bar Mitzpha at 13 and became a man in Judaism. Jesus is referred to as Rabbi and he was a teacher as were those who were also a Rabbi.

This confusion between what is religion and what is nationality is at the root of the discrimination problems. A part of the Jews who lived during the time of Jesus followed his teachings and they reformed Judaism. Another part did not believe him, and a third part followed later the teaching of Mohammed. Who exactly was Hebrew and who belonged to other nationalities I think is not clear. There were 10 tribes in the nation of Israel. They just found DNA evidence of one tribe that migrated to Ethiopia.

Do you think that the Orthodox Catholics, Roman Catholics and all the various sects of protestantism who all call themselves Christian are equal to God? David Koresh was a christian leader of a group called the Davidians was he equal? The Jonestown massacre was under the direction of a christian minister.

You see it is not the label one wears that matters to me but how they live their life. Over the centuries God has had many names but he is still God. And, if God sent Jesus here as his son and Jesus was a Jew then he must have favored the Jews.

It is also very bold of us to assume that in God's plan there is only supposed to be two sexes. We don't know because so many gospels written in the early days have been hidden or dismissed as inappropriate. Many of the Apostles were illiterate and therefore did not themselves write down what they remembered so we have hearsay third hand. But what is clear is that Jesus taught us not to judge other people less we be judged.

The Bible needs to be interpreted in the context of the times of the people who lived then and their common beliefs during their time. It has survived because it is so broadly interpreted that it has a place for everyone. I don't believe anywhere that it says we are all born as sinners. The tree that caused the problem was the tree of knowledge. Should we then believe that in order to be without sin we must be ignorant of knowledge?

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 24, 2001, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
Back to the initial question.

"Do Equestrians who are Christian exist?"

Yes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm absolutely positive that they do (and look at this thread afterall) however I am not one of them. I have been quite intrigued by this thread and have tried to read as much of it as possible. I am an athiest. I do not believe there is a God or any God like being - however I try my best to respect everyone else's beleifs in the hopes that they will respect mine. It does get difficult at times though. We have some girls on our Equestrian team that are very devout christians and while I an friends with them and absolutely respect their beliefs I find it offensive to me when they sing religious songs in the van on the way to horse shows.

I also find it offensive when there is a prayer said before football games over the PA system. I know that the majority of the people listening practice some kind of religion but what about those of us who do not?? I know it is such a fine line and such a patch of thin ice but I am curious about how those of you who feel very strongly about your beleifs would feel if I sang songs denouncing a God in your presence?? Am I totally off base or does this make any sense??

Sea Dog

Jul. 24, 2001, 01:17 PM

I think that what I was trying to say did not come across correctly. I don't think that being a homosexual is a sin at all. It is nothing to feel bad or negative about. I certainly don't. My point was that I think that when God created mankind he didn't have this in mind. When sin entered the earth, everything changed. Sin is what made things different from God's plan. I don't think being homosexual is sinful at all. Nor do I think that it is a sin or a person's fault if they need glasses. I don't think that when He created man He thought - "Now some of these people I am going to make them near-sighted so they will have to wear contacts." Not at all. I think that sin in the earth changed things. I do not think that a person should feel bad or guilty about it at all. It is just that way. I am gay. I wear contacts. I have no problem with either. They are just the way that I am. When I made Jesus Lord of my life, he accepted me the way that I am. So none of this is a problem at all. I really don't understand why this is viewed as unhealthy.

MsRidiculous

Jul. 24, 2001, 01:43 PM

big DITTO to what Clemson Rider said.

-Amanda

Jair

Jul. 24, 2001, 03:12 PM

Whoa! Good lord has this topic ever exploded again! Fascinating read guys /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hmmm I'm sorry Sea Dog, but I'm going to have to agree a bit with Robby about your view of being gay and how it pertains to religion.

As another gay man, I just find your statements referring to homosexuality as a "flaw" and as something that "god didn't have in mind" a bit, uhm, negative. Especially coming from another "friend of Dorothy's".

I too wear glasses, but while I guess it could be called a flaw scientifically, I don't think of it as something that defines me in either a spiritual or even corporeal sense. My eyes are my eyes, the same way my sexuality is a part of me. I don't think I'm flawed /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm curious about whether you are new to religion? It just sounds like you are resigned to being gay in the face of religion, as opposed to just being a gay man with strong religious beliefs.

Josh, my dear boy, you are so wrong about homosexuality. and I quote you:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>oh and to get back to the homosexual debate. i think that someone becoming a homosexual could just be a chemical/hormonal imbalance in the brain making someone desire someone else of the same sex. I?ve heard other theories that it comes from perversion and that people want to do it because it's 'new and exciting'. personally, i don't know. maybe someone can control it, maybe they can't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, from where you're coming from, it sounds like you're suggesting that my mom bottle fed me some "chemical potion" that made me desire men instead of women? /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Where can I get some more? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Seriously though, regardless of how it happened, I am gay, I was not made gay, so why should I be condemned for something I was born with? It was not my choice.

As for the people trying it out, yes, there is a new era of "bisexual chique" where it is cool to try cross gender relationships, but most of those people are not really gay, so I wouldn't even put that down as homosexual behaviour, if anything its just experimentation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>homosexuality isn't some plaige that captures it's victims to teach them a lesson, just as heterosexuality isn't. it's just a physical attraction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right - a physical attraction - so in that sense how is my desire for men any different than a man's desire for a blonde with large breasts? After all, it's the object of the physical attraction that is different, not the desire itself. Sorry, I just find so much of what you've written to be very contradictory. Mind you, that is my view on religion in general anyways, for every new philosophy, or lifestyle, scientific discovery etc. that is suddenly endorsed by the general populace, the bible will somehow suddenly be declared to always have said just that same thing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Out of curiosity, how old are you and ErinB? I have never heard such zealousness in two people whom I suspect are only young adults /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Jair on Jul. 24, 2001 at 06:20 PM.]

Sea Dog

Jul. 24, 2001, 06:48 PM

In response to Jair's view of my view: (This is kind of like "Who's on First?" or something.)
_____________________________________________
"I too wear glasses, but while I guess it could be called a flaw scientifically, I don't think of it as something that defines me in either a spiritual or even corporeal sense. My eyes are my eyes, the same way my sexuality is a part of me." - Jair
______________________________________________

When you said that "my eye are my eyes", this is exactly what I am saying. My homosexualtiy is no different.

When I said that homosexualtiy is a byproduct of sin being in the earth, I didn't mean that in a "bad" sence at all. This is not coming out the way I would like for it to. What I gather by your disagreement with my view is that when God created man (Adam and Eve), He created them as both straight and gay. Is this correct? If He didn't then when did this come in the picture?

What I am saying is that I feel that God created man most likely as what we have called "straight". Thereby able to reproduce. I think it was sin in the earth that changed things. I don't feel in any way that being homosexual is a sin. I think that sin changed God's creation.

Back to my example of eyesight, I think that when He created Adam and Eve they had perfect vision. I think that it was again sin that changed this. Not that near-sighted, far-sighted, or whatever people are sinful. Its just the way it is.

I am perfectly happy with my sexuality just as I am my spirituality. That is just the only thing that makes sence to me. It was not learned from any person or religion.

Also Jair stated that "I don't think of it as something that defines me". Nor do I. It is a part of who I am. Just one part. Part of what is a very deep and complex being.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

elizabeth

Jul. 24, 2001, 08:31 PM

You have made what is to me a totally cool point that keeps you within religion while acknowledging how you might (MIGHT - MIGHT) have a characteristic (or live a lifestyle, I don't know how to say it) that is not in accord with some religious dogma.

Good for you. Yay for inclusion!

The Catholic church I go to in LA has a gay and lesbian group, and when I first heard that, I was taken aback. I mean, Catholics, as an institution, do not, as I understand it, smile upon non-heterosexuality.

Yet the position of this church, as it was later explained to me, is that we would rather have everyone in and loved than excluded and unloved. This parish - this community - is about inclusion, regardless of your sexual orientation, race, politics.

And that is good stuff. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Robby Johnson

Jul. 25, 2001, 06:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sea Dog:
I really don't understand why this is viewed as unhealthy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, in your previous post, you said, "I know God doesn't want me to be gay."

Robby

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 06:46 AM

Got an answer for me?????

Moesha

Jul. 25, 2001, 06:51 AM

How do you know God doesn't want you to be Gay?

Do you think God is interested in whether you are a good, kind, caring, loving, compassionate person, who has the ability to be honest and open and can love someone unconditionally or that he would rather have you be selfish, cruel, hateful, mean, deliberate as long as you were "with" a woman regardless of your treatment of her or yourself?

It's funny as FU&*(%^ up as society is and the abuse and horrifying treatment of people, loving someone of the same sex seems to occupy so much of peoples hate as such a horrible thing.

Have you ever thought that there are things that God is REALLY unhappy about on Earth and in our society? Yet we go around in circles persecuting and harping on things, maybe we are too lazy to do any real good so we just pick easy and innocent targets in the name of righteousness.

I am not professing any religious beleifs, but those of you who make bigoted and hateful statements in the name of religion, I hope you are sure you are doing so in faith, because you might have to answer for your ignorance later.

tle

Jul. 25, 2001, 06:52 AM

Clemson... what was the question? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 06:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonRider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
Back to the initial question.

"Do Equestrians who are Christian exist?"

Yes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm absolutely positive that they do (and look at this thread afterall) however I am not one of them. I have been quite intrigued by this thread and have tried to read as much of it as possible. I am an athiest. I do not believe there is a God or any God like being - however I try my best to respect everyone else's beleifs in the hopes that they will respect mine. It does get difficult at times though. We have some girls on our Equestrian team that are very devout christians and while I an friends with them and absolutely respect their beliefs I find it offensive to me when they sing religious songs in the van on the way to horse shows.

I also find it offensive when there is a prayer said before football games over the PA system. I know that the majority of the people listening practice some kind of religion but what about those of us who do not?? I know it is such a fine line and such a patch of thin ice but I am curious about how those of you who feel very strongly about your beleifs would feel if I sang songs denouncing a God in your presence?? Am I totally off base or does this make any sense??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kellybird

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:01 AM

Clemson--many people would ask that you be open-minded and listen to their values--hoping hoping hoping that you'll 'see the light' and realize that they are right /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif --and then when you explain your own beliefs...well, you can moo until the cows home for all they care...if you don't agree, you're wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sad but true, it's happened many time to me.

Back to the initial initial question...yes I'd say there are at least a couple of Christians in the community /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~KBird

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:11 AM

That I give them an opportunity to explain to me my beliefs even though i know that I am not going to convert to them - but I am automatically wrong when i express mine.

Another question for you guys, why is it so unfathomable to believe that science is why things happen. I'm not trying to say I'm right and your wrong just trying to get an understanding of why religion is so strong for some people. For me its hard to beleive something that I have never seen/touched etc. I will admit that I do not know a lot about the bible etc. I have also heard some people say religion is a crutch - that some people use it as an excuse for things (please don't take this as an accusation!!) such as "God has a reason for things thats why this bad thing happened/or why i did this bad thing etc."

Also someone once asked me if I didn't believe in some kind of after life than what was the point of living life and trying to live a good life if you didn't go to heaven. I was bewildered by this - to me living a good life is, well, to live a good life!!! I don't feel like making sacrifices now are going to benefit me later when i am rotting in the ground!!! The circle of life after all will turn me into food for another being etc etc.

Please don't take anything I say as accusations just curiosity. Thanks

tle

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:14 AM

Clemson -- probably the same way I feel when I get an e-mail from a former co-worker (who does not know my religious affiliations) and it's signed with a christian blessing at the bottom. Weird and a bit not-welcome. I understand where you're coming from... as a practicing non-christian, I completely understand as I often feel the same way. At some point there has to be toleration on both sides... but defining that point isn't easy. My father always used to get mad at me for "retaliating" (sp?) with the same crap that someone else was dishing out... the outcome of such acts was the eventual blow up of the whole situation beyond where it should have been. Hope that made sense.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:17 AM

I had a very similar experience - One of the girls on our equestrian team sent out an email reminder about a meeting or something and at the bottom was a christian blessing or quote or something and I was offended. I privately sent her a polite email explainining to her why I didn't not it was appropriate for that type of correspondence (where it was going to more than one person) because she could not be sure of everyone's religious beliefs. She was very nice about it and I think she understood where I was coming from. I was happy that we came to a very peaceful and polite resolution about it!! Going to school in the bible belt is hard for me but i try my best!!

Janet

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I also find it offensive when there is a prayer said before football games over the PA system. I know that
the majority of the people listening practice some kind of religion but what about those of us who do
not?? I know it is such a fine line and such a patch of thin ice but I am curious about how those of you
who feel very strongly about your beleifs would feel if I sang songs denouncing a God in your presence??
Am I totally off base or does this make any sense?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am a (third generation) athiest, and I am old enough that they still had school prayer when I was in elementary school. (I just stood or sat still without bowing my head or saying anything.)

I am also unhappy (offended is probably not the right word) about prayers before football games, and in Congress, etc.

However, religious music doesn't bother me (except for a couple of really stupid songs). In fact, I ALWAYS listen to the Kings College "Nine Lessons and Carols" at Christmas, to the bafflement of my nominally christian in-laws.

Yes

Janet

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> just trying to get an understanding of why religion is so strong for some people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Different reasons for different people- family and cultural identity, tradition, community approval, etc. are all part of it.

But the fact is that that there are many things about the world (and human life if particular) that we just don't understand. There are many areas where science simply doesn't have the answere. Lots of people would rather believe an explanation- even if that explanation doesn't hold up under rigrous logical examination- than accept "We just don't know".

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I am a (third generation) athiest, and I am old enough that they still had school prayer when I was in elementary school. (I just stood or sat still without bowing my head or saying anything.)

I am also unhappy (offended is probably not the right word) about prayers before football games, and in Congress, etc.

However, religious music doesn't bother me (except for a couple of really stupid songs). In fact, I ALWAYS listen to the Kings College "Nine Lessons and Carols" at Christmas, to the bafflement of my nominally christian in-laws.

Yes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I guess offended is kind of a strong word, uncomfortable and unhappy are definitely how I feel. I also have gone out to dinner with a group of friends who always say grace before a meal, outloud. I have absoultely nothing against saying grace before a meal, however is there a way that I might explain it to them that I would feel more comfortable if they said it to themselves during a moment of silence before the meal. I feel like they will get offended when I don't bow my head or close my eyes, and as they are my friends I most certainly do not want to offend them!!

thanks for past and future responses!! this disucssion is great!!

HeyYouNags

Jul. 25, 2001, 08:15 AM

I feel your pain. There's someone at work who signs her business email with a little thingie that represents the Christian fish symbol. It bothers me, to the point that I pay more attention to that than to the actual content of her message. (Hint, hint to all you heavy-handed Christians...)

In my first professional job after college, the business owners, who were very strict Christians, sent Christmas cards to all the clients with a very Christian message inside. I had to sign the cards, too. I didn't say anything to my boss, but in addition to offending me, what about the clients who might have been Jewish, or any other religion? Why don't Christians feel the need to be as open-minded towards other religions, or non-religions, as we are asked to be towards theirs?

There was an interesting little article in Sunday's Washington Post. A survey found that more people were willing to accept a family member marrying a member of another race, than a person who was atheist.

It seems that atheists and agnostics are one of the last minorities that it's still okay to discriminate against. Hence the "just suck it up and take it" about prayer in public settings, and the erosion of separation between church and state.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 08:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:
I feel your pain. There's someone at work who signs her business email with a little thingie that represents the Christian fish symbol. It bothers me, to the point that I pay more attention to that than to the actual content of her message. (Hint, hint to all you heavy-handed Christians...)

In my first professional job after college, the business owners, who were very strict Christians, sent Christmas cards to all the clients with a very Christian message inside. I had to sign the cards, too. I didn't say anything to my boss, but in addition to offending me, what about the clients who might have been Jewish, or any other religion? Why don't Christians feel the need to be as open-minded towards other religions, or non-religions, as we are asked to be towards theirs?

There was an interesting little article in Sunday's Washington Post. A survey found that more people were willing to accept a family member marrying a member of another race, than a person who was atheist.

It seems that atheists and agnostics are one of the last minorities that it's still okay to discriminate against. Hence the "just suck it up and take it" about prayer in public settings, and the erosion of separation between church and state.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The blurb in the Post is interesting to me. I just had a short discussion with my roomate - who does believe in God and she asked me If I felt I would have problems with my romantic relationships in the future because of my beliefs. I thought about it and decided that it is absolutely a probabiliyy that a serious loving relationship will not work out because of differences in our religious beleifs. In the past I have not only dated people of different races but obviously people of different religious beliefs. up until now I have had no conflicts in these relationships but i am prepared for one in the future.

There was also and article in the WAshington Post magazine a couple of weeks ago about a Congressman/Senator (my mind is failing me) who is very religious and was talking about how he plans to bring those beliefs to the country. It also bothers me that other gov officials tend to use their religious beliefs to enact/create laws/statues etc. when not everyone in this country believes in the same things they do!!

Wow I think that was pretty confusing!!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 08:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Moose:

Clemsonrider, have you ever read "Contact" by Carl Sagan, it was also a good movie with Jodie Foster. It's fiction, but it has a very cool theme about a scientist who has the same problem, and who has a boyfriend who is a minister. It doesn't involve any religous conversions, but it is very thoughtful in how religion and science can conflict, but then come together.

This has been my biggest beef with some fundamentalists. Science isn't the defining answer, but it definately gives pieces of the puzzle that can't be disregarded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Moose, I will definitely have to read it!!

tle

Jul. 25, 2001, 08:51 AM

Well, typically I don't have too much of a problem with christmas cards and such. Just when it goes "too far". I see people all over my workplace wearing crosses... my direct supervisor and several people I work with constantly talk about this and that with the Catholic church and schools they support (especially during football season)... and yes, I see those magnetic fish things on cars all over the place. That's fine. I have my pentacle that I wear (most often I wear an Ankh though) and occassionally you'll see me finish an e-mail to a friend with "Blessed Be" or open it with "merry meet" or some such. Again, though I don't think it's taken to extreme or too "in your face". The former co-worker I mentioned earlier is VERY "in your face" about Christianity and yes, I tend to pay more attention to that part of her message than the message itself.

On another note, I was listening to the radio the other evening while in my truck and heard some things on a Christian radio station that really bothered me. The Dr. somebody or other who was speaking was talking about the origins of various religions and flat out stated that some of them (Hindu, Buddism, Animalism in various forms, etc.) were "wrong", "degrading" and such. I think it's harsh statements like that that are wrong! But we've covered this issue before (tolerance for the various paths). I just felt like venting over it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for the faith/religion vs. science... well, like religion, I can't speak for everyone. For some, it's basic to their upbringing (they were raised believing the same as their parents and their parents' parents, etc.). For some, it's a mis-trust of science... perceiving science in a government type capacity (aka conspiracy theories and such). For many, having faith in something that cannot be defined or, in some cases, can be defined the way they want it to define... well, it may be a stretch, but it makes sense. I know about evolution, but you still have the question how did the first whatever get there. In the end, for me, it makes sense to think that there is some higher power. I will, however, agree that I've seen far too many people OF ALL RELIGIOUS BACKGROUNDS use their faith as a crutch. That's pretty sad.

On a similar note, I rewatched Dogma last night (have it on DVD) and found myself thinking about this discussion... especially at the end when Rufus asks Bethany if she believes and she says no, but she has a good idea (referring to Rufus's comment earlier in the movie that God was upset at the factioning of the religions and "all the sh#t that gets carried out in his name"). Outstanding movie, IMHO!

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Snowbird

Jul. 25, 2001, 10:23 AM

In those days a verse from the Bible was read every day, and everyone had to learn Christmas carols. My school was 99.9% Jewish and to my knowledge there was not one conversion as a result of the exposure.

We were taught tolerance by respecting the way others practiced their belief. I think generally there is something to be said for the acceptance of a Universal Intelligence to whom we are responsible for good behavior simply as a sociological reaction to being alive.

I think that an atheist need not be annoyed if others do believe in God because they know there is no such thing for them. The materialism of which all complain so much comes from the concept of pleasure today and instant gratification now.

While it is possible for some people to maintain a good attitude to society without God the vast majority need and want the Father figure to make them feel guilty for what might be considered "sinful".

To me the whole point of tolerance is to try and understand why and how other people think without making a judgment on it's validity. So being exposed to their thinking can make you better understand Why!

Kaori

Jul. 25, 2001, 10:58 AM

Living in the Bible Belt and being from a family that is is very active, the reason such Christians are so *vocal* *pushy* is because they are encouraged to do so at a very young age. It is their duty! As apart of the Youth Group we were always supposed to bring in someone "new" everyweek.

I now find that behavior offensive. I don't like what I was taught, and I deal with that behavior everyday. One coworker takes every opportunity to "preach." Despite my unyeilding "No thank yous" to her church invitations and social outings, I still recieve them on a regular basis. I stay polite and indifferent, though I have to admit the Easter Service Invitation that was in my mailbox at work almost made me angry.

The songs, prayer, magnetic fish do not matter much to me. Conversations are easy to change or leave, but I consider forcing a topic to be border line harrassment. I don't like being forced into prayer, but I don't bow my head/close my eyes. It amuses me to find others *checking.*

Carl Sagan is a wonderful scientist and writer. I've read most of what he has published and his books have instilled a wonder and appreciation for life. Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot are two of my favorites.

[This message was edited by Kaori on Jul. 25, 2001 at 02:13 PM.]

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

I think that an atheist need not be annoyed if others do believe in God because they know there is no such thing for them. The materialism of which all complain so much comes from the concept of pleasure today and instant gratification now.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that I would say I was annoyed if others believe in God. They have every right to believe in whatever they choose. And I am most definitely not complaining, although I'm not sure I understand the last sentence in that quote. i just don't think others should be "annoyed" that I am a non-believer if I should not be annoyed with the believers!!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kaori:
Living in the Bible Belt and being from a family that is was very active, the reason such Christians are so *vocal* *pushy* is because they are encouraged to do so at a very young age. As apart of the Youth Group we were always supposed to bring in someone "new" everyweek. It is their duty!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DO you beleive that this it right?? That this is a good practice for those that are good Christians?? I am wondering how people of various levels of belief feel about the "duty" to bring recruits to their places of worship!!

MsRidiculous

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:13 AM

Being the only athiest in a family of Southern Baptists and Mormons makes it kind of difficult for me at Christmas. When they have their prayer before meals I don't bow my head, I just sit there silently and wait for it to be over. I also am the only one who stays behind when they all go do church on Christmas Eve. The only person who really gets angry about this is my mom. She wants me to just "play along" and she doesn't really understand what it means to me to be able to stand up for what I believe.

Basically my view is that I don't really care what religion people are, as long as they don't try to force their views on me. I don't go around telling them there is no god, so I really don't appreciate it when they tell me "the grace of God will reach you one day" /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The answer to the original question, "Do equestrians who are Christian exist?" Yes, and thats fine. But I'm not one of them.

-Amanda

Kaori

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:14 AM

Clemson... you caught me right in the middle of a post I was trying to edit. Trying to figure out the bb functions... please reread my post.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kaori:
Clemson... you caught me right in the middle of a post I was trying to edit. Trying to figure out the bb functions... please reread my post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean to jump on you!! I totally agree with your edited post. I'm glad to find people that understand where I am coming from and also people who can give me a glance into something that I am trying to understand!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kaori

Jul. 25, 2001, 11:24 AM

I would also like to add that my best friend is the minister's daughter. She is engaged to a man who has "some" Buddhist beliefs. Her father is very tolerant, though I imagine she is on his top ten prayer list every night. Her mother on the other hand nagged her from the start of the relationship (as in the hours before the first date) about his beliefs. She did't cease for three years, despite the bf's willingness to attend church. Even over dinner she would nag and harp at her daughter, despite the bf's presence. Finally, one evening her older son said "Shut up Mom, all of us are sick of hearing about it."

She did stop harping, but even with the upcoming wedding, she has found many excuses not to help with the planning. (The wedding is planned for late fall.)

I think this is pretty extreme and it makes me sad when I think about it. All this time the bf has been so patient and forgiving.

Kachoo

Jul. 25, 2001, 01:11 PM

Hmm . . . interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading it - everyone has made their points so eloquently.

In answer to the original question: Sure, Christians exist in the equestrian world! I've had the pleasure of knowing several, all very nice people.

I can also relate to those of you who have ever felt unfairly judged or labeled simply because you're not part of any organized religion (or the one you're "supposed" to be part of). My dad is Roman Catholic, and my mom is Buddhist. Neither of them have ever tried to force their religion on me, and as a result, I follow a little known system of belief I like to call "Susieism" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Basically, it goes a little something like this - who knows if there's a God/Heaven/etc.? Just be the best person you can be to yourself and others, and you'll be just fine whether there's an afterlife or not. Unfortunately, I spent a number of years growing up in a town in Florida that was entirely Southern Baptist, and I'm pretty sure they considered me, if not the Antichrist, the next best thing. I remember one Monday in particular, when some girl actually came up to me and informed me that her congregation had spent quite some time the previous day praying for my immortal soul. Apparently, because I hadn't accepted Jesus into my life, I was destined to spend the rest of eternity having demons poking me with pitchforks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Fortunately, I have a relatively good sense of humor, and I've never taken religion very seriously, so I found those years pretty funny. It just struck me as rather odd that the very people who spent all their time preaching about acceptance and love and kindness to others were the ones I found the most judgmental.

Of course, I'll reiterate - this was an experience I have only encountered in that one town. I have known plenty of Christians outside of it, and for the most part, they have been very pleasant and tolerant.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"Laugh at yourself first, before anyone else can." ~Elsa Maxwell

Josh

Jul. 25, 2001, 01:49 PM

ok there's a lot to talk about but i'll try my best to condense it.

about religion/faith vs. science. i believe that they definately coexist. my bio teacher was a very religious woman and the wife of a preacher. yet she was so deeply involved in her study of sciences. but personally, i find many more important and useful things than science. like God. he gives us what we need. (not that science is wrong or un-important. but just that it seems to be very inconsistent in some ways. kind of like my beliefs according to some people. but we definately need to study it. it's important to know how things work so we can improve our ways of life. plus, God created all of this stuff. we really should find out what it is exactly). but, 500 years ago, 80% of what they believed has since been proven false. we can't use a science book in the classroom from 50 years ago because so much progress has been made since then, disproving old theories and coming up with new ones altogether. the bible even warns us that philosophy and science will try to disprove the things in the bible (this is written to people who believe the bible. if you don't... what i'm saying doesn't really matter). now all this religious 'stuff' may seem like just the ultimate plan. something that comforts needy people (a crutch), and gives them answers for the uncertain, the things man fears most. and when people say that, i really don't know what to say, truthfully. i mean i believe that the word of God is true, but i can see why someone could think that. i guess it's just faith.

about homosexuality. i'm really sorry if it offends some people, that's not what i mean to do. but i DO think it's a sin. God says not to do it. i don't see how, if you believe in God, that you don't view this as a sin. (i'm not trying to judge anyone. this is just what the bible says.) i think the few homosexuals that have posted on this site are probably ten times 'better people' than i am. i probably am commiting 'worse sins' then they are. personally, with the word of God aside, i see nothing wrong with being attracted to someone of the same sex, it being done in a moral way. but the simple fact that God said not to, is enough for me. not that anyone who is homosexual is many more of a 'sinner' than i am. God loves us all the same.
and regarding elizabeth's story about her catholic church with a gay/lesbian group. that's awsome! i think that's a great thing to have.

as far as their being a 'VIP seciton in heaven'. i kinda think there could be. i'm not sure about anything. but i know jesus mande references to certain people (i forget exactly who) being 'great in the kingdom of heaven'. and others would be 'lowest in the kingdom'. i don't think He means that he 'favors others' (as condratictory as that sounds). but mearly rewards some as He sees fit. but Heaven is the end of suffering. so even in 'the lowest' realm of it. it's gonna be great!

oh and Robby. sorry, i need a spell checker on this thing. 'Episcopalian'. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

as far as Jesus being a Jew. you might be right snowbird. but, i still get hung up on this one thing. if He is Jewish, he believes himself to be a liar that He is the son of God.

about non-believers feeling uncomfortable with Christian banners flying in their faces. i really feel bad for you guys. i know that denouncements of God in public places would bother the crap out of me. and i'm really sorry for those of you who have to go through that. i guess i kind of have had a glimse of that. a tight knit group of friends that i'm friends with are athiests, and many times it kind of hurts me to hear their denouncment of something that i love with all of my heart. and i really listen to what they have to say with an open mind. but, i rest assured that what I believe is true.

to Jair. i'm not saying 'your mom bottle fed you a potion to turn you gay'. but what do you think it is that makes you attracted to other people? hormones. the chemicals that make me, as you said, 'attracted to a blonde with big breasts' are the same that make someone like yourself attracted to a man. (i didn't mean to be perverted there, just using an example). i'm not condeming you. and if homosexuality TRULY is something that a person is born with (i say 'if' because i do not know) than i think God will deal with it differently from 'oppen difiance'. you can have a wondeful and very Godly life (if you choose the latter) being straight or homosexual. so you're right. it's not something to be condemned for. really, Jesus came and paid for everything that we could ever do to be condemned. (minus denouncment of the holy spirit.) oh and you're right. i'm only 15. thanks, i guess i am pretty zealous about the G-man /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i guess i didn't disclose my age before because when talking with adults, many times they'll treat you as though you are stupid because you haven't expierienced as much as they have.(not an accusation but it stands pretty true in my expierience, but that is a pretty limited test drive.)

you are very right Moesha. we shouldn't be overly concerned about sexuality, there are many many more important issues that mean so much more to God, and our society. no one's saying that sleeping with a a member of the opposite sex is more important than being a good person. my only backing that homosexuality is a sin, is because it says it in the bible.

if you are not given the opportunity to explain your beliefs (athist, chritian... whatever) please, the wrong doing in this is with the people you are talking to. not all people who share their beliefs. there are many christians who just can't seem to listen to someone who doesn't believe what they believe (many of you might think i'm one of them) but that's the personal wrong doing. in that they are not 'strong enough' in their faith to be bombarded with other beliefs. this is true in both directions.

ok, about 'how can some be soooo into what they believe that they can just dismiss science, human logic, etc. and still always listen to their God'. well. in my oppinion. God went all out for us. He created us, and everything we know. then when we disobayed Him. He came down to our place, and took on the consequenses of all our wrong doings just because he loved us. not because he would get anything out of it. He truly went all out for us. i don't know how i couldn't live my life for, and strive to make all of my choices for, and to please Him. it's not an obligation though like it may sound. i want to do it. i used to like Incubus ( a band) a whoooooole lot, and still do. but at that time i was into all of their self strengthening philosophies. many of their views are very very good moral ones, such as not allowing yourself to be prossesed by others, doing what is right, and expressing what you believe while staying open minded. i do still live by many of these, but i don't do them for myself, i do them for God, that's the main difference. i just realized that living for myself wasn't the one i should be living for. i merely mentioned this to show that i was not always a 'religious fanatic' (proud to bear the name though).

ok, my parents both believe in God, but haven't been 'practicing christians' since they were children. (going to church in no way makes you more or less of a christian). they forced me to go to church with my grandparents while i was younger so it could 'but a moral backing in my life'. not that it's necessary for morals. but now i can go or not go as i choose. they have tried going to my old church (a mormon one0 and they refused to go again, because the missionaries were always 'in their faces'. does this mean the missionaries are wrong? i don't think so. they are trying to teach what they know to be right. but i understand how people who think that those kinds of people are totally wrong could see it in a very bad way. just as i don't want anti-christ views thrown in mine. my parents believed in what they were saying and they still didn't like it. so i guess it's the way that it's presented more than the content.
ok well i'm sorry this is so long again, there's been a lot of topics! ok write me back.

Janet

Jul. 25, 2001, 01:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kaori:
Living in the Bible Belt and being from a family that is was very active, the reason such
Christians are so *vocal* *pushy* is because they are encouraged to do so at a very young
age. As apart of the Youth Group we were always supposed to bring in someone "new"
everyweek. It is their duty! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is, in fact, the definition of "evangelical".

hobson

Jul. 25, 2001, 02:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh:

to Jair. i'm not saying 'your mom bottle fed you a potion to turn you gay'. but what do you think it is that makes you attracted to other people? hormones. the chemicals that make me, as you said, 'attracted to a blonde with big breasts' are the same that make someone like yourself attracted to a man. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Josh, where are you getting this crackpot information? A gay hormone??? At any rate, watch you don't become TOO concerned about other people's personal sexual relationships...voyeuristic disapproval (of consensual relationships) is perverse in itself.

elizabeth

Jul. 25, 2001, 02:53 PM

You as a 15 year old said what you said in a manner far belies your age.

I suspsect I could not - even at my ripe old age of 20-something - articulate my views on religion in such a reasonable, understandable CALM manner.

While I suspect some on this board might ask your age in an effort to devalue what you post (I am not suggesting that I think that that was the intent here, by the way!!!), you have now stripped anyone intending to do such of the ability.

Oh, and once I got my spelling corrected, too. It was, interestingly, done by a person who disagreed with me on the substance of my point and was, I think, trying to take a jab at me indirectly. (I formed the view that that is what the person was trying to do b/c TONS of posts here and on that thread have spelling errors and the person did not correct any other ones!)

That being said, it was nice to be provided with my own personal "spellcheck" feature for my own edification. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snowbird

Jul. 25, 2001, 07:28 PM

Dear Josh!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>as far as Jesus being a Jew. you might be right snowbird. but, i still get hung up on this
one thing. if He is Jewish, he believes himself to be a liar that He is the son of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus said he was the son of God as we all are the children of God whether we are a son or a daughter. So your premise is wrong because he did not say he was "The Only Son of God". And, it was God who chose to make him a Jew by picking the family where he would grow and teach. It was the prophesies of Elijah a Jewish prophet that made people believe he was the Messiah sent to save the Jews. He fulfilled those prophesies. Who are we to say that God didn't know what he was doing or why he did it? Perhaps God tried with Buddha and there were still too many who hadn't heard the message so he sent Moses and then he sent Jesus and then he sent Mohammed.

It is the way he has been interpreted by earthly people that created the schism of christianity and not Jesus or God.

Josh

Jul. 25, 2001, 09:21 PM

ok to hobson. yes. this is what i think. what makes us sexualy attracted to and makes us want to have sex, are hormones. there aren't little hormones running around with a 'gay' sign on or a 'straight' sign on. just like blood cells don't say 'white' or 'red' on them. and no, i have no scientific or biblical (believe it or not) evidence of this. it's just my common sense. hormrones make me attracted to a female. so... if you're attracted to someone of the same sex, do hormones just disapear and something new comes in to take their place? all i'm saying is that hormones are a huge factor in what makes us physically attracted to one another (a pretty widely excepted theory, not to get TOO scientific all of a sudden) so it would make sense to me that a person attracted to others of the same sex is just a different arrangement/combination (i don't know this science stuff) of hormones. and you're right. we shouldn't really be concerned about this. it is however one of Gods greatest gifts. (sex, love). if it can't be controlled by the person, i am betting God feels the same way that others on this board feel, homosexuality just is.

a the thing that bugs many non-christians is that we, as christians see so many things as 'wrong' or 'shameful'. even beliefs that people have may be 'sinnful' in our minds. but that's the nature of christianity. these, i should add, are my beliefs and shouldn't be taken as all christians views. we all think differently. but our goal is to be more like God. and when something goes against that, it's viewed as sinful. we're not here saying that 'whatever you believe is awsome, as long as it's something'. this christian logic goes against much of our modern logic, which pretty much says that doing or believing anything is ok as long as we're good people. 'Christian logic' is a little different. somethings are just plain wrong. (this isn't a refernce to homosexuality at all). as 'out of wack' as that may seem, if God says not to do it. most christians are going to view it from God's point of veiw. (the only view that matters to me). and say it is wrong also. if it hurts Him (disobeying Him hurts Him) then it might also hurt a lot of His followers. we're not condeming you. we just want you to do exactly what we say when we say to do it! just kidding just kidding. although it probably seems that way many times from someone 'on the outside'.

elizabeth. thank you! it feels really good to hear someone say that. i hope i'm not being to pushy. i'm not the one making the stuff up though. God is, so he deserves the credit. but thanks for the articulation raves:D and you're right about the spelling stuff /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and moose. sorry for the incorrect 80% thing. i was just exagerating. but what i meant was that the gospel of God (and God himself) never changes. i didn't mean that science is 'wrong' in any way. i think it's great. it's just studying what he has created for us. and thanks for the complement about open mindedness. same to you:)

as far as Jesus being the son of God, and Jewish, it gets confusing because Jesus IS God in a mans form. 100% God, 100% man. so how can he be His son? we are all His children this is true. but the thing that sets Jesus apart is that... well He IS God. over and over God refers to Him as His 'only begotten son'. true we are all His children (i too am his son). but he set this distinction on jesus to highlight how special He was. this doesn't mean that God conceived Jesus with Mary, she was a virgin. it just shows the Lords 'knitch in His heart for Jesus (himself)'. he's allowed to be full of himself! just kidding.

if you look at the time this was posted i probably should be in bed, huh? i am just a youngin'. but it's summer!

[This message was edited by Josh on Jul. 26, 2001 at 01:52 AM.]

Pirateer

Jul. 25, 2001, 09:47 PM

wow. that took a long time to read /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But it was well worth it.

To answer the original question, yes equestrians who are christians exist.

I am not one of them however. Having been openly atheistic since 8th grade, I have had to deal with a lot of crap about not believing in God. People thought that since I had to religion, then certainly I have no morals. Just because you have religion, doesn't mean you do/do not have morals. I know of plenty of equestrians who don't have morals, just as I know many classmates who praise God by day, drink like underage fish by night.

Many people confuse "morals" with "inhibitions." Many of my friends think I will be going straight to hell when I die. I know a lot of them pray that someday I will find "God."

I don't go around preaching that there is no God, even though many christians do. I beleive belief is something that is entirely individual, and one person may be able to open your eyes to something, but they should never be able to give you a complete 180.

I have said before that I agree with Jesse Ventura's "Religion is a crutch for the weak" but now I disagree with myself, in a way.

Some people need something in black and white to say that they shouldn't do something (i.e. 10 Commandments) and some people decide for themselves what they want to be able to do or not do.

I like be able to think for myself and debate in my head about a particular issue. Homosexuality for example-while it's not something I would do myself, I don't believe its wrong (Just like I wouldn't ever do Western Pleasure, but I don't think it's wrong).

Rebecca and Pirateer *The Pi*, 9 yr old bay tb gelding.

**Go Big, or Go Home**

Pirateer

Jul. 25, 2001, 09:49 PM

An afterthought-

Did anyone ever think that perhaps the poster was refering to the immorality of many equestrians (drinking, drugs, sleeping around, etc.) as what she meant in the question?

Rebecca and Pirateer *The Pi*, 9 yr old bay tb gelding.

**Go Big, or Go Home**

tle

Jul. 26, 2001, 08:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It's troubling when you read that a state like Kansas will no longer teach theories of evolution because bible belters believe it conflicts with religious dogma. There are many reasons I believe in sep. of church and state, but mostly because of the ultimate corruption and power that can occur when it is combined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. All the talk etc about the faith based initiatives are hard enough to swallow but something as blatant as this is just aweful!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>That is, in fact, the definition of "evangelical".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is what many non-christians object to! there is nothing wrong with giving someone information, but to get "preachy" about it is something else. If someone asks what my beliefs are, I have no problem trying to explain them. But I won't go around flat out telling people that they really need to come with me to a Samhain ritual so they can see "the truth" and find the Goddess. IMHO, all missionaries (regardless of faith) shoudl be taught to ASK if the person wants to hear what they have to say... and if that person says no then that should be the end of the conversation.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Josh

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:17 AM

on the issue of enangelism. Christians many times get 'to preachy' when talking about it. that is true. i know i am at fault for that too. that's something many of us may need to work on. i do think it is right to 'preach' to someone though (because I know what i'm saying is true). but it's just the same because a non-believer KNOWS that what they believe is true. just, in the bible it says that you should, at whatever costs, spread the word of God. (this sounds kinda mean, sorry) but to me, i'd rather annoy someone with my preaching, than to just 'give up' on something that i know to be true. a negative is that my preaching may turn many away from God. so it's kind of a gamble. this theory doesn't seem to hold up in 'human logic', but i guess that just shows the unpracticality of Christianity. sorry if we get to much into your faces.

as far as seperation of church and state. i guess i agree with it. because so many miss-guided christians have tried to 'lead' a country that was 'based on God'. but really they just used it as an opportunity for THEM to gain power. like in the settling of the west. settlers 'came in the name of God' to 'establish the west'. so they stole the land from and slaughtered many indians. doesn't sound like what God wants huh? so as long as our world still has so many corrupt people that claim to be 'coming in the name of God', we might should keep church and state seperated.

many people confuse the meaning of 'church'. a church is can be a building where followers meet. but, more importantly a (christian) church is the body of people that follow God/Christ. it's a group of people.

I'm kinda thinking that i shouldn't write a Christian blessing at the bottom of this based on all the Christmas card stories. j/k. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MsRidiculous

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:26 AM

Just to let you know...

When someone "preaches" at me, all it does is make me more firm in my Athiestic beliefs. That and annoy the living heck outa me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Amanda

tle

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>i do think it is right to 'preach' to someone though (because I know what i'm saying is true). but it's just the same because a non-believer KNOWS that what they believe is true. just, in the bible it says that you should, at whatever costs, spread the word of God. (this sounds kinda mean, sorry) but to me, i'd rather annoy someone with my preaching, than to just 'give up' on something that i know to be true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this again comes back to the fact that you (in a general sense) are trying to tell someone else how to live their life. That's ok? I don't think so. I don't care who said it was ok, God, Jesus, Allah, Isis or Dan Rather... it's NOT! "Spreading the word" is fine... that to me is spreading information. If my LDS cousins want to go on missions and talk to people, that's fine. But to get "preachy", which to me means the "in your face, you need to know this or you'll burn" type of one-sided conversation, is just as wrong as telling a black man he has to use a different bathroom. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I know what I'm saying is true for me just as much as you know what you're saying is true for you. My way is not right for you and your way is not right for me. Why be a "bully" about it?

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh:
on the issue of enangelism. Christians many times get 'to preachy' when talking about it. that is true. i know i am at fault for that too. that's something many of us may need to work on. i do think it is right to 'preach' to someone though (because I know what i'm saying is true). but it's just the same because a non-believer KNOWS that what they believe is true. just, in the bible it says that you should, at whatever costs, spread the word of God. (this sounds kinda mean, sorry) but to me, i'd rather annoy someone with my preaching, than to just 'give up' on something that i know to be true. a negative is that my preaching may turn many away from God. so it's kind of a gamble. this theory doesn't seem to hold up in 'human logic', but i guess that just shows the unpracticality of Christianity. sorry if we get to much into your faces.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really think that its okay to Annoy people knowingly? I know that you are supposed to spread the word of God but don't you think that you should do that at least to a somewhat receptive audience? I am often approached by people on campus handing out pocket bibles and trying to get you to stop and talk to them. Isn't this a little like telemarketing but outside and not on the phone?? Why apologize later for something that you can stop now?? If you truly are sorry that you are annoying people, why don't you try (instead of stopping completely) to use a better approach to spreading the word. Maybe have a least a few qualifying characteristics that would lead you to believe that the people you are talking to are at least open to what you have to say. Even if it is just asking, excuse me would you mind giving me a few minutes of your time to tell you about my relationship with Christ? and then if they say yes, awesome and if they say no, move along your way and realize that you tried and that is what matters???

I would never try to preach my beliefs about there not being a God to people that I knew believed in God. I know my beleifs are right to ME, but just because they are right to me does not mean they are right, period. when you use the word true to explain why its okay to preach, I think that what you mean is kind of like what i stated before that the belief may not be true but instead is "right" for that person. But I may be misreading your post. I'm not trying to make accusations or anything so please do not take offense.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:35 AM

you and I were on the same wavelength at the same time!! how funny /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jair

Jul. 26, 2001, 10:45 AM

I agree with you 100% MissRidiculous. I don't like being preached at either. Mind you, I don't like being told what to do either /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Josh wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> (because I know what i'm saying is true). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Curious Josh. How do you know that its true? I don't mean that in an antagonistic way- just curious how you can be so vehement about it.

I know people say they believe something because the "bible says so". But how do you know that its true? The bible has been rewritten so many times (as I think someone else brought up a few pages back) that I don't understand how anyone can take the words at face value anymore. I mean King James I had the thing rewritten to suit his beliefs.

I was always taught to not believe everything I read or hear. To me the bible is nothing but a set of interesting and allegorical stories, and while they have lots of good morals to them, I certianly don't believe them to be absolutely true.

Especially from the scientific point of view - being a geologist I know that the earth was created 4.6 Billion years ago, but the bible says that it was created only a few thousand years ago. Just a few too many lost years there eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Giddyup2

Jul. 26, 2001, 11:33 AM

I feel exactly the same!

HeyYouNags

Jul. 26, 2001, 01:33 PM

This never-ending thread has inspired me to start a new movement, Evangelical Vegetarianism. Henceforth, I will try to win converts to vegetarianism. If you've read the medical literature, you know vegetarianism is the right way. If you haven't read the medical literature, I will gladly provide you with a free "Gideon's Pocket Guide to Vegetarianism" (Holiday Inn and other hotel chains have already agreed to place a copy in the bedside table of every room), which includes select passages from Dean Ornish's books on reversing heart disease (but glosses over some of those confusing passages about vitamin B12 only coming from animal sources). Vegetarianism will ensure your health and well-being, including bounteous bowel movements, for as long as you live. It is the only righteous path to lower cholesterol.

Your horse is a vegetarian, so conversion will enable you to be as one with your steed. Also, Jesus was a vegetarian /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , so he is as one with your horse, too.

I will sign each of my business emails with an anti-meat quote ("McDonald's - over 1 billion cows killed", or something equally effective.) My holiday cards will feature a seasonal motif, with a vegetarian message inside.

Members of the "Evangelical Vegetarian Church Of the Eternally Regular" will pledge to spend one year standing outside of fast food restaurants and Outback Steak Houses pressing vegetarian literature into the hands of the unfaithful. Radical Evangelical Vegetarians may firebomb Burger King, or stalk meat packing plant owners and harass them at their own homes, but mainstream evangelical vegetarians don't. We do, however, try to convert our friends and acquaintances whenever possible. We love to talk about what we call The Big V.

We're also recruiting at horse shows. You can identify our members because they often carry bags of carrots or apples with them.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go join a Christian message board, so I can spread the word of Vegetarianism.

May the sprout be with you.

tle

Jul. 26, 2001, 01:45 PM

OMG!! ROTFL!!! Thank you for a late afternoon, I'm in the middle of programming hell, very much needed laugh! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

palindrome

Jul. 26, 2001, 03:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh:
i do think it is right to 'preach' to someone though (because I know what i'm saying is true). but it's just the same because a non-believer KNOWS that what they believe is true.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The keyword there is believer. The way I see it, a religion is a belief system, not absolute truth. I am personally what you call a "non-believer". However, I wouldn't say that I KNOW what I believe is true; I simply believe it's true, if that makes any sense. I don't know for a fact that my beliefs are correct or true - they're simply what I believe in and what I personally *believe* to be true.

On the subject of "preaching" to people - being preached to doesn't change my beliefs. I am not someone who will suddenly start believing what someone tells me, just because they say I should. That is one of my reasons for being a "non-believer"...I would much rather experience things and form my own beliefs and opinions than be preached to and told what to believe.

Just thought I'd share that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MsRidiculous

Jul. 26, 2001, 07:23 PM

LOL, Jair... I can't STAND being told what to do, either. Much less being told what to believe!!!

-Amanda

MissD

Jul. 26, 2001, 07:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Especially from the scientific point of view - being a geologist I know that the earth was created 4.6 Billion years ago, but the bible says that it was created only a few thousand years ago. Just a few too many lost years there eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could be wrong (yes, it DOES happen /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but as far as I know, the Bible says that Jesus was born a few thousand years ago. There was a whole lotta time between when God created the earth and when Jesus was born. I believe it's called the Old Testament. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kellybird

Jul. 26, 2001, 08:59 PM

HeyYouNags--ROFLMAO...May the sprout be with you /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And to Josh--about your 'blood cell' analogy--which I truly wasn't clear about, but that's not my comment--red and blood cells do have a 'code' or 'flag' on them...red and white cells do different tasks, just as hormones have different tasks. Testosterone, Estrogen, blah blah blah.

OK, just had to clarify. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And also, Josh I'm very impressed with your ability to stay nice and try and be reasonable, even though I completely disagree with almsot everything you've said. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm glad to see there are people who can maintain a normal tone of 'voice' even when they're being bombarded by differing viewpoints.

~KBird

tle

Jul. 27, 2001, 06:45 AM

Just wondering where everyone else (pacificsolo, Carlysue, etc.) went in the last few pages? Here's hoping that our "coming out of the broom closet" on this thread didn't scare off every Christian but Josh. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The discussion is great!!

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

RolexH

Jul. 27, 2001, 06:46 AM

Excellent discussion. I just want to interrupt and make few points. Also answer a few question with my view points. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Point one: the bible does NOT say that the earth is 2000 years old. It is saying 2000 since Jesus walked the Earth, which has been scientifically proven. (Whether he is the Son of God is what science has not) It is not clear on to the thousands and thousands and thousands of years of the old testament.

Jair, I asked that same question to a respected minister once. He told me that in Genesis, it is clarified that to God what is one day may be thousands for us, and what thousands for us may be a completely different number. I think he was saying that the people who wrote the old testament and also the transcribers of the writings, could not possibly interpret what time is to God.

Point two: I think a lot of atheists would be surprised that A lot of Christians do believe/acknowledge evolution. I do. The difference is, the origin of that evolution. Creationism and evolution CAN be the same thing, if you are a Christian. I just believe that the first sign of life was by God, then it evolved. (by God)

I know this throws me in a lurch about "Adam and Eve." I carry a little different beliefs about the Bible. Inspired by God, WRITTEN by man. I think that through translations and different societies, a lot of what the Bible intended was lost. I PERSONALLY believe that the Old Testament consists of a lot of Parables and Fables. Stories with Moral endings. I am not saying all of the Bible is this way, but I do think that it was interpreted by MAN and this allows for a lot of problems. Heck I know when we were kids and we would play the telephone game at camp (do you know what I am talking about?) and one person would say something and by the time it was at the end of the line it turned into a WHOLE new sentence. (sorry for the run on sentence hehehe)

Anyway, I nearly married an atheist. IF that isn't being open minded to everyone then come on! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We were together for years, it didn't work out because of college distances , etc., but I learned a lot from him. And he in turn learned a lot from me. I think, that is what God is about. Loving everyone and listening, learning from what they have to say. I have read every word on this 17 page thread, and though I emphatically do not agree with what some people say, I do learn from it. It allows me to introspect and reassure my views.

I completely understand what most of your view points are, and heck I agree with some of them. I spent 5 years schooling in the sciences, I know science. But the one thing that gets me and keeps me believing in that higher love, is that science cannot explain certain things. From cells where do I get love? From blood, DNA? Where is passion born? Consideration, Guilt, kindness, honesty, lies, they are not of this body; they are of my soul. Where is my soul? Six senses, "feelings something is wrong," HATE. I have a minor in Psychology I know the different theories. I just don't swallow all of them. I guess FOR ME it leads me back to God. (and that goes for other gods of other religions. For them)

I guess I have said what I was thinking. I hope it wasn't too long. I have held on here for 17 pages I guess my one long post will be okay /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~Lisa~~

Josh

Jul. 28, 2001, 03:39 PM

ok about the preaching thing. i'm sorry if i misinterpreted what i was thinking. i try really hard not to get in peoples faces. i know how that can be really annoying. (even though i said i didn't care about that previously /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) i have a group of about 10 friends who are pretty tried and true athiests. i don't preach... or even talk about religious matters with them. all i was trying to convey is that when some chrsitians do seem to jump at you with their take on the Almighty, that it's always out of good intentions. we're just trying to spread infromation, as someone else said, but many times we do it too forcfully. and about what i said about how i didn't care about being annoying. i don't WANT to be annoying. but if i am compeled to talk (to some that may mean preach) to someone about God. i don't let the fact that they may be getting annoyed with it stop me. many people i AM compeled to talk to about it, i don't, because i am to shy or just don't want to 'bother' them. i hate to annoy them, but if i feel it's right (and have the guts)... (unfortunately it does turn many away even more from the church because of that preaching). i guess it's kind of like a math teacher. even though what they're teaching is accpeted as absolute truth. when a student is annoyed with math (if you guys forget, it happens A LOT) the teacher doesn't stop and move on, she/he keeps pounding. now i realize this is a VERY different matter than spreading the word of God because the word of God isn't accepted truth for everyone. (as well as many other reasons these two aren't the same so i guess this analogy is a LITTLE flawed). but to the person, what they are 'teaching' is just as true as the math being taught in the classroom.

i don't think we're trying to tell others how to live their lives. we, well at least I, just try to explain our lives and how AMAZINGLY they are affected by God. some Christians, as well as some from all other religions, can sometimes get too pushy for people to take.

ok to Jair. "How do I KNOW what i 'believe' is true?". well, with God, their's just this amazing feeling sometimes, unlike anything else. this may not mean much, and sound like just a a bunch of fluff. but it IS amazing to a person that experiences it. i was asking myself that same question the other night about how i could commit my life so much to something. because a book says it? the book comes after you believe. you7 have to be totally convinced first. it's indescribable. from the imidiate (as in over night) effect it has on a 'new christians' life, to how the worst problem i've ever had can just be totally and fully explained to me in a fraction of a second where i JUST know. and i know 'coincedence is one thing', but there are times were it's not coincedental at all. but i could go on for another page about the reasons. but be assured. not many people are going to sacrafice soooooo much, and devote their lives, time, and complete self, unless something absolutely proves it to them.

to Kbird. all i meant was that homrones are what make you attracted to people. (am i wrong? cause i sure could be). so why is it so far fetched for some that those same homrones (rearranged or combined differently from straight people) are what make a person become attracted to someone of the same sex? and thanks K bird. i guess that's why i type so much, i'm one of the few christians posting! thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rolex H. wow, another Christian /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (i'm not trying to gang up on anybody or anything). those are some awsome points. i especially like the one about evolution/creationism. that's how i think of it. God created the beggining form. (whatever it/those were/was) and he 'saw' that it evolved to it's present state. and that it will continue to evolve. (though His guidance). and yeah, it says in the bible that God knows no time. he exists without it. so a day is like a thousand years (really, who says it's as little as a thousand: there is no time, but it's just an easier way to understand it). so when it (the bible) says that the earth was created in seven days, who knows how long that is in OUR time. well i think i should just be quiet now cause i'm just repeating Rolex H.

write me back kiddies /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kellybird

Jul. 28, 2001, 05:55 PM

For the most part, hormones are what make men grow thick beards and deep voices and cause men's/women's bodies to be shaped differently...pheramones [sp?] are what cause you to be attracted to people--think of them as un-smellable scents. You don't know it, but they're there. Hormones do not cause you to be attracted to other people, hormones cause internal changes. I hav eno ideea how pheramones work, but I believe that it's not set that men only have one type and women only have one type and you're attracted to the opposite, or vice versa--everyone has unique pheramones...otherwise we'd all be going after everyone else! <And I'm sure that people have differing opinions on who is attractive/who isn't etc.> I see how you are trying to explain your point, sort of though. I mean I don't agree with it at all... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But nice of you to remain pleasant. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~KBird

Janet

Jul. 29, 2001, 09:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But the one thing that gets me and keeps me believing in that higher love, is that science cannot explain certain things. From cells where do I get love? From blood, DNA? Where is passion born? Consideration, Guilt, kindness, honesty, lies, they are not of this body; they are of my soul. Where is my soul? Six senses, "feelings something is wrong," HATE. I have a minor in Psychology I know the different theories. I just don't swallow all of them. I guess FOR ME it leads me back to God. (and that goes for other gods of other religions. For them) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is an important point, and one that is often musunderstood.

Just because I am an atheist (and I use that term for simplicty, I am actually more of an agnostic. I BELIEVE that there is no cognizant, omnipotent "higher being" that cares what we do, but I KNOW that we will never be able to prove or disprove it) doesn't mean that I think that "science has all the answers".

I "believe" in love, hate, trust, fidelity, honesty, goodness, and so forth. I don't believe that science can fully explain them. But I also don't believe that you need a "god" to create them.

Squirt

Jul. 29, 2001, 03:04 PM

Dang, eighteen pages, I've been reading this for the past three hours! No joke. And I also want to congratulate everybody for "playing nice".

As with tle I'm also a wiccan, and one of the first things that I learned was that we don't go to the mountain top to preach. I feel that if you are ready to learn, you will come. Thus we don't recruit. I too have a problem when people say that I'm a devil worshiper, or that I'll go straight to hell, or that anybody who isn't a Christian will go to hell. First of all, I don't believe in satan, and Hell is a place at the end of the street in medieval times where they burned dead bodies (from the plague, presumably). And if everyone who wasn't a Christian did end up in hell, that would include Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, etc...

Oh and a few pages back someone referred to Celtic pagans as animal sacrificers, well hot dang. I must go into a trance every time I worship because I can't ever remember sacrificing an animal. Produce yes. Uh-oh are the saviors of the baby carrots and quiches goin to come after me now? Be careful about stereotyping.

I can relate all this to horses as well. I bought a bunch of meat chickens to raise, and since my coop wasn't poultry friendly I had them over at the stable were I work part time. Well one of the boarders had his churches youth group out to work for the day. I was feeding that morning and he said something along the lines of "let's get these young christians working/sweating/something" To which I replied "in the presence of a witch no less" Which, as it usually does, left him speechless. Fast forward two weeks. It was time for the chickens to be slaughtered and I couldn't find a butcher that wasn't completely booked up. So Jim (the barn owner, old farm kid from the 50's) said that we should just do it. OK, chicken judgement day approaches and John, the boarder, was in the house talking to Jim when I called to talk about the chickens. So Jim knowing perfectly well of my religion was making some cracks about saving the blood, heads, and legs for my ceremonies. Meanwhile John the boarder in in the background freaking out, saying "But she's a witch, didja know she's a witch, is she actually going to use all that?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Um, maybe it's one of those you had to be there.

tle-by the way I agree with you, I really like Scott Cunningham's books. What other authors have read?

davidgud - equestrian jihad

Jul. 30, 2001, 05:41 AM

Attention: Hey You Nags . . .

Evangelical Vegetarianism . . . Hmmmmm . . . Interesting Idea . . .

When I was home in Victoria last Christmas, I had quite an argument with a very comely lady friend of mine - who is a vegetarian and quite passionate about it - (as indeed she is with most things in her life) . . . (I am a meat eater by the way, and proud of it . . .) . . . anyway, to continue . . . as I pointed out to her in the middle of this "spirited debate" . . .

1] . . . Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian . . .

2] . . . and Josef Stalin was studying for
the Priesthood before he decided to take
up a different line of work.

Hmmmmmmmm . . .

David G./Seoul ROK

tle

Jul. 30, 2001, 11:05 AM

Josh -- I really do think I see what you're saying. But the analogy with the math teacher was flawed from the get-go. The student HAS to be there, the teacher is getting paid to be there. I don't HAVE to listen to the (no offense intended) "bible thumping radical" who has taken it upon themselves to save my soul. I think a lot of people are in your shoes... have strong beliefs, see someone they would like to talk to, but don't... for whatever reason. Or even hint about it, but never get to the point. AGain, I don't see anything wrong with that. Where I would get upset or annoyed would be with the person who continually tried to "talk" to me even though I had expressed (literally) complete disinterest. Asking someone if they want to hear what you have to say is fine... even saying a couple things. But at some point, the subject you're talking to is going to make it obvious that they want you to continue or stop. Being a good person IMHO would be to listen to that message and comply with their wishes.

I completely understand your feelings on why you think what you believe is the truth. It's the same way I felt when I started reading about non-christian religions (wicca specifically) last summer. It was like a revelation! I just knew that this was what I had believed in for so long because it felt right. I only bring this up to share... ok, and maybe to remind that we each have our own "revelations" and what works for one person may not work for another. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Squirt... MM! I've read many of Scott's books, but unfortunately, I'm not well read beyond that (yet!). Silver Ravenwolf is one that I've picked up and read, but not extensively. I seem to like more interest books. Recently read "Wiccan Warrior" which was really good, and have just started "Riding Windhorses" which is about mongolian/siberian shamanism.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Josh

Jul. 30, 2001, 03:39 PM

Kbird, as far as hormones go. sorry i wasn't full ybrushed up there on which chemical is which. but my point was just that MAYBE chemicals are what makes a person gay or straight. it also could be lifestyle or up bringing. but most of the explanations i've heard FROM homosexuals say that they were 'just born with it'. which is perfectly believable to me. just like i was 'born attracted to women'. (my mom's told me some stories about some toddler smooches going on at the beach /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ) and thanks again for the civility comment. applauds to you too /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

moose. great! i'm glad you can agree with us on that. i definately think that, for the most part, 'God induced evolution' (that's how i think of it), is how things work. and that doesn't cancel out the biblical portrail of adam and eve for me. (not that you, or anyone said that it does). as far as Humans go, i think God may have had some big time impact with our developement.

tle. yeah, the anology with the teacher and preacher IS pretty flawed to the preachee/teachee. but, although it's not exact, that is kinda how we (preachers /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) look at it sometimes. i completely agree with you on the other thing. if someone verbally tells you that they don't want to be told about God (or anything), i don't think the person should stand there and continue to barade them. explaining your beliefs is fine, but once a person tells you to shut up (nicelly of course) you should take heed.

as far as 'only christians get into heaven'. that's sure not what i believe in. (and i'm a Christian). according to what I believe in, if you believe in God you go to heaven. many accomplished and learned preachers will both agree and disagree with that, every christian is different. but i think that in the bible it makes my point pretty clear. now i know that in affect i'm telling all the athiests, wiccans, agnostics, and all the other religions that i know nothing about (which i should by the way) that 'you're going to hell because you don't believe in God'. first of all, that's not my decision nor my right to say that to you. and plus, you probably don't believe in 'my Hell'. (once again i know nothing about what you believe). but the bible says 'believers go to heaven'. so Moses, Abraham, David etc. are some of the greatest followers of God in the bible. yes they're going to heaven (according to the bible). they're Jews, Jews believe in God.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jul. 31, 2001, 07:19 AM

Josh - I see what you are saying about the heaven and hell thing. I agree that while some Christians may believe that I am going to hell for not believing in God, well I don't believe in heaven or hell so it really doesnt matter to me, ya know?? When people tell me I am going to hell I usually respond with actually no - I'm going 6 feet under and then i will decompose and my body will contribute to the life of some other living being - be it maggots or worms or whatever. I guess that while I don't believe in reincarnation per say - I do believe that my death will foster another living creatures life.

Snowbird

Jul. 31, 2001, 08:19 PM

It is a proved fact that between the time someone is a person and terminal and that moment of passing 9 ounces leaves the body weight of the then corpse. So here are some thoughts for you atheists.

As part of this hypothesis where is that we as people reside? For example we know we can replace the heart and it's still the same person, and they can lose both their legs and both their arms and still be the same person. So then where do we reside in our otherwise life support system?

Could it be that just as if we have to walk on the moon we need a space suit which is our life support system on the moon that we are using our bodies as a life support system here on earth? Then exactly who or what are we?

Could it be that what the ancients called a soul is really who we are? And, another hypothesis is if so then where did that soul come from? and where does it go when it's life support system fails? The brain which appears to be a sort of chemical and electric machine shop which seems to be the host. If it is damaged then "we" can no longer communicate and tell the body what it should do. It keeps the heart beating, and the lungs breathing.

Then there is the issue of that moment in time that mothers call feeling life. Prior to that moment we have a developing embryo getting ready to host a human. I wonder if at that moment of life there is an extra 9 ounces that arrives and makes the difference between an embryo and a baby?

And, my last paradox if there is a 9 ounces of something that makes a lump of tissue into a human person where did it come from? It can't be just reincarnation because with the huge increase in population there just aren't enough to reincarnate from previous ancient days into today. And, since energy can be neither created not destroyed (i.e Einstein)it has to have been somewhere.

The other enigma is, if Eistein is right then there is no real universe because what we see is simply the consecutive views of our own galaxy at various stages of time producing light which has just gotten here from past ages. So what we see is just the passage of time and not an expanding universe at all, and, there goes the whole big bang theory.

I personally am convinced that the universe we know is in a steady state and that the rest is an optical illusion. We view the universe through lens that are not polarized and are probably as suggested by Einstein the victims of our own physical limitations.

And how do you explain why this little rock third from the sun is crawling with life in every place and all that any exploration has found is other dead rocks? So if there is no God then why should this be so?

My personal theory is that this is purgatory as referred to by ancient savants. That we have been somewhere and that we will return to somewhere when we have learned our manners. How else if there is a God can you explain the useless death of little children and good people?

So if you live a long and healthy life then you must have been very bad where we come from, and those who as they say "the good die young" and "the innocent die young" must have been entitled to a shorter sentence here for good behavior.

OK! go at it! Just another aspect of an old idea now that we have agreed that God had to be Jewish and that Abraham, Moses, David etc. probably didn't go to hell because they were good people. Don't forget without Abraham, Moses and David there would never have been the opportunity to be a Jesus of Nazareth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janet

Jul. 31, 2001, 09:15 PM

Actually, you can believe in a "soul" and in some forms of "life after death" without believing in any gods.

I don't. And I don't personally know anyone that does. But they are distinct and different concepts.

tle

Aug. 1, 2001, 06:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>OK! go at it! Just another aspect of an old idea now that we have agreed that God had to be Jewish and that Abraham, Moses, David etc. probably didn't go to hell because they were good people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'm not sure we agreed about that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for the rest of your very interesting (in a good way) post, I believe that there is a soul. I also believe in reincarnation. I also believe that there is a place (call it what you want) that souls go when the bodies have died and this lifetime has ended. Much more often than not, I believe that the souls are there to rest and when that resting time is over, they are reincarnated to learn another life lesson or "redo" one that they did not learn. Thus I believe that this life is definitely worth living for the sake of this life (vs. for some eternal reward). I cannot say that I believe that this earth is the only place souls are reincarnated... I haven't given it enough thought to form an opinion yet.

I cannot validly explain to you or even to myself the death of little children (my sister was only 3 when she died of cancer) and good people (my grandfather was IMHO the best!). It is simply something that I don't understand. Because of the subject matter, I can honestly say that I don't spend a ton of time wondering about it... just comforted in the knowledge that their souls are either at peace and resting, or are on to their next lifetime (and being who they were adn how good they were, are obviously on to the next life lesson).

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Aug. 1, 2001, 06:40 AM

hmm . . . . well I don't believe in souls per say. I don't believe that when we die a part of us remains living. I beleive that the part of us that continues on is the part that helps another living being survive. I know that is confusing but I can't really explain it any better.

I have never said the phrase "so and so is in a better place" What, the ground?? I think not. I guess I am strictly science on this one - you die, you decompose etc. I can't explain the 9 oz leaving your body however I don't really care to because it doesnt bother me to not know the answer to something. I feel like sooner or later there will be a scientific explanation for it - now whether it is going to satisfy everyone's disbeleif that is highly unlikely.

this actually brings me to a point that I have forgotten to mention before. Is one reason that people believe in God to explain things that they don't understand?? I guess i am okay with not understanding everything, and for those of you who agree with me (christian or not) why do you feel you need to have everything explained and why is God the one that you turn to, to do that?

Please do not take anything that I am saying thw rong way - I am merely asking questions not making accusations.
Thanks!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

joliemom

Aug. 1, 2001, 10:08 AM

After reading but not replying for umpteen pages, I'll chime in on my own belief in a Higher Being.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is one reason that people believe in God to explain things that they don'tunderstand?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For some, I'm sure that neat and tidy answers from God to Man/Woman is essential to their belief. Thus bumper sticks proclaiming "The Bible said it, I believe it, case closed." As a rational human being, I question God continually. Do You Exist? Are You there? Who are You? If so, why do You let bad things happen to good people? In the end, I hear nothing and everything. In the end, I find peace, but I'm still full of questions. It's like swimming in a river with the tide, I can't see it, but I know if I swim against it, I don't go anywhere.

The current is God, Yaweh, the Goddess, the Buddha, Krishna, faith, time, space, the force of life, whatever gets you up in the morning and keeps you sane. It doesn't have to explain anything to me other than to know peace and to pass that peace along to others through kindness and justice.

As for the promise of an afterlife, I guess I'll find out when my time comes.

Josh

Aug. 2, 2001, 09:52 AM

Clemsonrider. i don't think that if you don't believe in God that you go to hell. i believe that (my, and the bibles) God can and will forgive you of all things... except one. (it sounds mean but i know he has a reason for it). Jesus came and died (in my oppinion) so that, even if you don't believe that he exists, you can one day live with Him. the ONE thing He didn't die for is 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'. that means, thazt you believe in God very strongly, then you just stop. hate Him for 'doing something' to you, or because science sounds more 'rational', or for whatever reason. you had Him in your life... then you stopped. now i don't mean to sound acusational to any one because i know there are many athiests who used to be 'practicing' (the ' ' are because, you going to church when you're young doesn't mean you are one way or the other Christian) christian. but in the end, God can do what he wants. i THINK i'm living my life for Him now, but that doesn't garantee anything. but i DO have a lot of faith in him

snow bird. wow, really cool and interesting post. i haven't thought enough about a soul having earthly mass to have an oppinion on it, but, i guess it could. that's a very good point. and out of body expierences. how does a 'non-soul-believer' think of those? people see their body lying on the table (this could just be imagined because of severe trauma) but i've seen stories (on dateline) about how they put an electronic screen on the very top of tall cabnits in hospital rooms. and one guy 'died' (heart stopped, breathing stopped) and he left his body, and saw the sign and he told the docters when they revived him about it. sounds pretty 'scinecey' to me.
as far as God being Jewish. i don't know about that. religions or faiths are God inspired MAN made things. they are here (in my oppinion) for the worship of whoever is designated and for the fellowship of others in your same faith. i doubt God is really ANY. i mean, he believes in Himself, so Judaism or Christianity, COULD be His chosen faith. but i mean... he's God. i don't htink he practices any religion. abraham, moses, david stc. didn't go to heaven (in my oppinion) JUST because they were good people, the main thing is that they were extremely faithful to God. God lets mean and 'bad' people into heaven too.

ok the omnipresent question. 'why do bad things happen to good people?'. i think everyone who i talk religion with have asked this. philosophers say that God can't be all powerful and good at the same time. because if He was good, he wouldn't 'let' bad things happen to good people. ok. i think that what we see as 'bad' always has huge potential to do incredible good for us. i'm really sorry if this sounds insensitive to people who've lost and gone through these huge tragedies. i know it seems as though it's horrible. and it is. but, God isn't up there 'watching us squirm'. he cares more than you do when you are hurt. it actually pains Him more! it could happen for many reasons. to teach you something (building your character, showing you how truley lucky you are) we don't realize all that we have until we loose it. you can't appreciate victory unless you have defeat. (lots of cliches but, they explain it easily). and another thing, is that it tests your faith, strength, whatever you want to call it. lifes GREAT when things are sunny. but when hard times come it show how we REALLY are. there's an entire book in the bible devoted to explaining the great things that come out of tragedy. (the book of Job) this guy lost his whole family and lost of material possesions. but he kept His faith in God and he grew enormously from it. and he was an awsome guy to begin with.

wow this is really long sorry. but here's a bunch more babble /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

i know it seems as though people believe in God to answer everything. and to have comfort to 'get through' life so they can go up to heaven. always something to look forward to... and that is why many people believe in God, for explanations. but, God doesn't explain everything. a lot of it, is how you would treat a 2 year old. you don't sit there and explain WHY you don't want them to stare at people. you just say 'don't stare'. 'why?'. 'because i said so, that's why'. that's all a two year old should need. (although it's usually not). but that's many times how God treats humans. we can't comprehend everything. what he wants and says is the FINAL answer. i don't have answers for everything. science offers more 'answers' (humanly excepted mind you) than i have. it doesn't bother me not to know. if trusting that He did it for a reason and He knows is this 'answer' you're talking about. then yeah, i do have all the answers. i believe in God not for the answers, not for 'the big reward' (heaven), not because it's comforting. i just KNOW it's true.

here's a little math question. i haven't figured it out but some people say the probability is that it's imposible. what are the chances of 66 seperate documents written over a period of 1500 years by 40 different authors, and not having ANY contradictions. that just kinda proves to me that the bible was and is inspired by God. written by flawed men, but i think God saw to it that He was accurately represented. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tle

Aug. 2, 2001, 10:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>i mean, he believes in Himself, so Judaism or Christianity, COULD be His chosen faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
He could also be a She and she could be a practicing witch.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sorry... just had to kid you about that statement a bit.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Snowbird

Aug. 2, 2001, 02:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>he's God. i don't htink he practices any religion. abraham, moses, david stc.
didn't go to heaven (in my oppinion) JUST because they were good people, the main thing is that they were extremely faithful to God. God lets mean and 'bad' people into heaven too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh! My! That's a contradiction intended I think to pacify us restless ones. God would practice all religions because all religions that are montheistic are his if he had no religion he would be an agnostic.

Abraham is the father of Juda, Ishmael was his son and was the guide for Mohammed who founded the state of Islam, Moses saved the Jews and set them free from Egypt. David the adulterer and soldier is the founder of the house to which God chose to make Jesus a family member.

The God they all believed in was not a kind and gentle loving God he was a warrior for the "chosen" people of Israel. Remember he helped David kill Goliath with his sling shot and destroyed the world but saved Noah. And, don't forget Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah, or Joshua blowing down the walls of Jericho to win a battle and take the land.

Jesus reformed the concept of God into a gentle and loving Father God. Now, if I accept your view it ends the debate because by your standard everyone would go to heaven. Since none of the above believed that God was the same as the Jesus tender God.

Anyway the point is that there is some logic and meaning in each and every religion that preaches
botherhood, equality and freedom. I believe that God! is pleased with that. And, even those who do no harm and try to do good and perhaps have no religion at all. By your own standard they all should be able to go to any heaven if there is one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What we do know is that God gave Moses only 10 Laws. Those he wrote himself and carved in stone.
As to contradictions, the Bible is full of them. It was "inspired" by God but it is the work of man. It was then edited and revised again by man.

The gospels don't even agree with each other. Even if you look just at the various versions of the birth of Jesus it is not really certain that it was in Bethlehem. And the date was chosen by christians much later to coincide with the birthday of the Caesar so they would not be discovered as christians.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Aug. 02, 2001 at 06:00 PM.]

Josh

Aug. 4, 2001, 10:40 AM

Snowbird. God has always been caring and loving. He treated many people in the old testament with swift harsh judgement that seems very cruel to us. but jesus hadn't come yet! The people that sinned had to pay the debt for their sins. now i'm not saying that we get off scott free now JUST because jesus died for our sins, but Jesus REALLY 'let us off the hook' quite a bit. if you believe in God you go to heaven. a murderer/ rapist/ child molester gets sentenced to life in prison. in prison he realizes his wrong doings and turns to God. guess what... he (according to my beliefs) goes to heaven. that's the entire purpose of the crucifiction (as a mentioned a while ago, the physical pain wasn't what did it). ok, here's the best way i can explain why in the old testament, God was so 'cruel' (according to us he might have been cruel. i however think he was still more caring than we'll ever know. he gave his people so many chances, and even when He dicided it was time for them to learn, or suffer as many people think of it, they suffered. FOR their own bennifit, he didn't enjoy watching horrible things happen to these people. but in His eyes, the only eyes that matter, it was necessary.) ok, i know i explained this in my last entry but i'll say it again. when you have a young child, most parents don't reason with them on WHY they can't do one thing or another. they just say 'No, i said so, that's why'. then if they disobey, they suffer the consequences. (time out, spanking, loss of privleges, whatever). this is what God did in the old testament. (in my oppinion). He was setting a president illiustrating what was, and wasn't right. (the 10 comandments were an outline.) and as far as the great flood goes. God saw it as necessary. for me that's all that i need. but if that's not enough for you here's my take on it. (not that my oppinion really matters). i think that God was making an example out of the evil people that were around back then. because in the end, their deaths (sound cruel but, he's God!) may have showed people the consequences of their lifestyles (now remember we don't know, and can't comprehend all the reasons God had for doing this, but he did have reasons). that doesn't mean God didn't love them. he loves everyone. it just means things were a lot rougher back then. that's what a HUMONGOUS impact Jesus Christ had on the world. christian, jewish, agnostic, athiest, wiccan etc. now i was just thinking about my comment on how Moses, Abraham, etc. went to heaven. i think i was wrong. Jesus was the first person into heaven. i really am not sure what happend to them.

as far as God practicing a religion. HE IS GOD. religions are made to worship (or to denounce) Him. (not all religions i know, but the ones that have to do with him are what i'm talking about). a 'religion' is a human matter. just like gender which we already discussed. i doubt God has sex organs, and i doubt he practices any of our earthly rituals and customs made to worship Him. Heaven is perfect. God is perfect. he's also not human.

I don't think everyone goes to Heaven. i don't think i've ever said that and i'm sorry if i hinted at it. in every entry i've posted i've said that he who believes in Him shall have everlasting life. not EVERYONE. and in the end it's His dicision. and yes, 'bad' people get into heaven too. (we are all pretty darn filthy in God's eyes, i mean, we're mortal, easily influenced humans). but he loves us all more than we'll ever know. you can however be made 'clean' through Him. (plus jesus took on our sins so we wouldn't have to). so it's not, if you believe in Him AND are a good person you go to heaven. it's 'if you believe in Him you shall have everlasting life'. (if you have faith and full belief in Him though, i don't know how with a clear head you could still go and be a 'horrible' person knowingly).

it is my belief that the bible has no condradictions. at first glance many of them seem to be condradictory to our imperfect human eyes and minds. but the bible is a little ahead of us. yes, the bible was written and editted by flawed sinning humans. (John may say the sign in front of Jesus's cross was three feet high, another guy says it's 4 feet high, that's just picking at the irrevelant articles that God may have ALLOWED to 'fall through the cracks' because it's frivaless) but it is my belief that God saw to it that the bible was written as he wanted it. when i read something that sounds condradictory (especially in comparing the old to the new testaments) i really think and pray about it. eventually i realize they aren't conflicting ideas at all. to someone outside of my faith, it may seem like i am just believing that sub-conciously because i am so convicted to my faith. who knows...

Snowbird

Aug. 5, 2001, 11:44 AM

Since I was raised as a christian I can understand your personal opinion. I do understand that much of that is based on pure faith and is not necessarily logical. I don't require that you be logical or change your faith, just I like to raise questions based on logic and history and an understanding of the motivations that are behind the beliefs we all hold.

I think you have proved that you have an open mind and that there is room in your faith for others. That, is I think the purpose of a dialog on this thread. It starts from the premise of the question as to what exactly is defined as a christian.

When christianity was in it's inception during the first 2 centuries they were called Nazarenes to indicate a sect of Judaism. The thing that unifies all three religions is the conviction that whatever his name there is one GOD, and no one disavows the 10 commandments.

So perhaps there is more with which we agree than that with which we disagree as about what is a christian. Then the answer to the original question would have to be that almost every horseman is a christian.

I don't think that bible thumping christians are the only ones that have the road to heaven if there is a heaven and hell at all. If you read more of what it was that Jesus is said to have said, than what was said about him and for him, I think you can agree.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Aug. 5, 2001, 07:29 PM

Just to give you the peace to sleep at night /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have never been to church other than for a wedding and have never practiced nor spoke of any type of religion - so at least you know im not a practicing blasphemer (??) hehe /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tle

Aug. 6, 2001, 07:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The gospels don't even agree with each other. Even if you look just at the various versions of the birth of Jesus it is not really certain that it was in Bethlehem. And the date was chosen by christians much later to coincide with the birthday of the Caesar so they would not be discovered as christians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the date of Christmas coincides with the pagan holiday of Yule (not only does it share similar dates, but similar traditions--- just like Easter and Ostara). hmmmm.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So perhaps there is more with which we agree than that with which we disagree as about what is a christian. Then the answer to the original question would have to be that almost every horseman is a christian.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, I'm not sure I understand this last paragraph. Are you referring to the several religions you mentioned specifically? Are you referring to the "one god" concept? The 10 Commandments thing? You've confused me (not hard to do on a Monday morning after riding 2 horses in a clinic I was also organizing, but still... ).

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Snowbird

Aug. 6, 2001, 02:36 PM

Yep! all the branches of the original "One Supreme Being" i.e. God by any name I think could be considered as a sect of the general category "christian". Since what Jesus taught conflicts with no one.

Once you go further out on the branches there are so many splits and twists of interpretation that I don't believe there is such a thing as a pure "christian" because the biggotry of the bible thumpers and what they preach is sinful since it is so full of pride and vanity that even Jesus would never have approved.

The Byzantine Christians are not compatible with the Roman Christians and then there are all the various sects and deviations off the main view of protestants. So who is to decide which of these is the right way and the only way that God would approve?

Therefore yes, to me the 10 Commandments which are a common factor for all sects and the one God concept binds everyone into the classification of "christian". I don't remember anymore but in the old languages I believe that the translation of christus was given to Jesus the Nazarene by the Byzantine and that word just means follower or faithful. Since what was preached by Jesus was not a new religion but a reformation of Judaism I would certainly have to include all.

Therefore, "christian" means a follower of the one God who gave us the 10 Commandments by which a good man should live his life as taught by Jesus.

Now, I don't know that much about the eastern religions, as I should, but I am certain that there is nothing that would conflict with the 10 Commandments and the montheistic supreme being. Even the Gaiia spirit which is supposed to be the living spirit of our earth does not conflict with the existence of a montheistic supreme being since it makes the earth into a living organizism such as we are our selves.

So the premise of my statement is that either we are all christians or then none of us are christians, and I believe that we all are the same and need to judged not by each other but by God for what we do, and God alone will judge us for what we think.

I have never seen or heard any believable thesis that says God plays favorites. As to atheists if they are right then we who do believe in God have lost nothing because that conviction helped us live better lives. If we are right then a just and loving God will only judge them as we, by what they have done and what they have thought.

Afterall, was not one of the parables spoken of from Jesus the story of the prodigal son who returns home to his father and is welcomed with a great celebration. Much to the chagrin of the good brother who then fell into sin by being jealous.

tle

Aug. 7, 2001, 05:46 AM

I can see your point about the various sects of Christianity. But...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Therefore, "christian" means a follower of the one God who gave us the 10 Commandments by which a good man should live his life as taught by Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not sure I quite agree with this statement (and if I were in one of my moods, I might even be offended). It sounds a bit like "everyone is Christian and that's the way it should be". ??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Now, I don't know that much about the eastern religions, as I should, but I am certain that there is nothing that would conflict with the 10 Commandments and the montheistic supreme being. Even the Gaiia spirit which is supposed to be the living spirit of our earth does not conflict with the existence of a montheistic supreme being since it makes the earth into a living organizism such as we are our selves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what about polytheistic religions? Ones like Wicca, Druidism, Autruism (I know i'm spelling that wrong!)? Granted, specific wording aside, I think you'll find the essense of the 10 Commandments in most if not all religions... but to tack on the qualification of a monotheistic supreme being is ludicrious.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So the premise of my statement is that either we are all christians or then none of us are christians, and I believe that we all are the same and need to judged not by each other but by God for what we do, and God alone will judge us for what we think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll agree with the last part of this... that we are all the same and need to let people live their own lives... but not sure about the first part for reasons outlined above.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Snowbird

Aug. 7, 2001, 12:01 PM

I agree with you totally however the issue of this thread was christians and I feel that is a broad area as I specified.

Perhaps the only logical division is between monotheism and those with multiple gods. I personally agree that a loving kind GOD would not be malevolent towards the latter. My feeling is that if the life lived is done with honesty the singular God is not so jealous as he seems to be in the old testament. A supreme being could find a place for everyone so long as they did not deliberately break the 10 Commandments.

Of course the first commandment does offer a problem for those who have a question of one major and supreme God. My thought is that the minor gods are not a lot different than saints who can interecede with God the Father.

tle

Aug. 7, 2001, 01:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I agree with you totally however the issue of this thread was christians and I feel that is a broad area as I specified. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually since we started discussing ALL KINDS of religions, I figured you were including all of them... not just the Christian comment that started this some 18 pages ago. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Perhaps the only logical division is between monotheism and those with multiple gods. I personally agree that a loving kind GOD would not be malevolent towards the latter. My feeling is that if the life lived is done with honesty the singular God is not so jealous as he seems to be in the old testament.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that its wonderful for you (and others like you) to have an open mind for those of different religions... really I do. And if what you describe is how you feel (ie: tolerance for others), then that's great. But (isn't there always a but? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>A supreme being could find a place for everyone so long as they did not deliberately break the 10 Commandments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would my supreme being (or beings) care about the 10 Commandments?... and as you pointed out, especially the 1st? The 10 Commandments is a Christian item (not idea, as the ideas behind the 10 Commandments may be and are shared across various religions)... and as such, there is no need to worry about how to fit non-Christian ideas into them (ie: polytheism). Again, if this statement is made to show what you believe is tolerance towards other religions... I have no problem with that and actually will applaud it. I guess I'm just wanting to clarify a few points that could get lost in your statements... Kind of like earlier conversation about how a non-Christian doesn't think they'll go to Hell because they don't believe in Hell. Confusing at times.. but this has been an OUTSTANDING thread!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Of course the first commandment does offer a problem for those who have a question of one major and supreme God. My thought is that the minor gods are not a lot different than saints who can interecede with God the Father.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm... where I think you may be missing the mark on polytheistic religions is that they do not necessarily have "major" and "minor" gods. In some cases, various gods just are... none above the others just "ruling" over different things. Ie. in the case of Wicca (generalized here, without any specific tradition), the God and Goddess are two parts of a whole... both at the same high level. One may have minor gods in their tradition or faeries, but it is possible to have multiple god(dess)s at the same high level.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

RolexH

Aug. 7, 2001, 05:16 PM

I think this thread just keeps repeating itself. I mean Josh has his views, tle has her views, Snowbird has her views, I have mine, they are all pretty good points. I don't agree with everything tle has to say, but I don't agree with everything Josh has to say, either. These are opinions that are valid and are based on some deep personal thought. I am so impressed with the maturity here, but I feel that things keep getting repeated. To answer Carlie Sue, yes there are Christains who ride.

Maybe I am getting a little miffed. Even though everyone is keeping a good job at not getting childish and silly; I keep reading every thing (including my own posts) as saying "my way is the right way". So anyway, I just think that we should all, (chirstian or not) embrace each other and quit the ping pong from bouncing back and forth and back and forth. Some of the things that people are saying here are offending others, and that destroys the whole point of talking about a higher power or a divine being (IMHO). That is just my opinion. I know that I will be flamed for saying it, but it won't be the first time. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I also am expecting the comeback: "don't read it if you don't like it..." but I can't help it. This thread is addicting! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~~Lisa~~

Snowbird

Aug. 7, 2001, 07:25 PM

But, it seems to me that all the polytheistic religions do have some sort of rank. For example in ancient Greece, Zeus was the chief honcho. So what I say is that God wasn't offended by being called Zeus at that point in history. I do agree that females were granted much higher rank in polytheistic religions than we ever had in monotheistic religions. And I can agree with the concept that male and female are two parts of the whole.

I think a forgiving God can understand if someone is being a devoted person to their beliefs that
things like do not kill, do not steal, do not desire someone else's spouse, honor thy father and mother, do not tell lies about your neighbors are being fulfilled. I think that he/she can undestand the value of intention and purpose.

For example suppose there is a sect which may be polytheistic and yet follows the mandates and lives in a balance with the natural world. Contrast that with a bible thumping preacher who winds up with a cult and he kills them all. I believe God would prefer and respect the first and cast the latter into hell although they are professing christians. I also do not think he will punish the poor souls too anxious to please and therefore get caught in a christian trap for their naivity unless it came close to vanity and pride.

To answer your question, yes! I do really believe and celebrate the differences in people. I can admire the gypsy and I want to understand the heathen and the barbarian. I think that God gave us the freedom to create and be inventive and to learn from each other. I may even be descended from a barbarian Attila the Hun who conquered the eastern part of europe and left his DNA and his philosophy behind.

I think what I remember most, and what impressed me most from my christian upbringing was "Judge not, lest you be judged", and "He without sin cast the first stone". I learned a great deal from friends I have that are in the State of Islam, and I have several from a Budhist Temple in Morristown no less. These are wonderful kind people who are giving and trusting so how can that be bad and deserve damnation.

I must admit that I have not met any from Wicca, but I am always willing to learn and to listen. If I were to accept the wholistic christian approach then I too would be damned and I do not believe that from my God. He gave me a brain so I could learn and understand and how could that be a bad thing. It is simply the reason there are so many ways into his house.

There are the snake christians, who believe they must test their faith by snake handling. I can understand their logic without wishing to practice their approach to testing God's love. There are cannibals who believe that eating their passed over relatives is an honor and a tribute. I don't want to do that but I can respect their belief. There are those who feed the dead to the vultures as a means of recycling life. I don't see much difference between feeding the dead to worms and maggots or vultures, actually vultures are probably less offensive.

The fact that I can respect another belief does not mean that I share it. But I believe I should be tolerant if I am to be a civilized person who does not insist that my way is the only way.

Josh

Aug. 8, 2001, 07:43 AM

ok well. i too respect everyones beliefs. you're right snowbird, God gave us the free will to choose what we wanted to believe in. but we keep getting back to how much our actions matter. now don't get me wrong. if i were to work on anything to 'make myself a better person', i'd probably start with my actions first or close after. they're very important to God and to ourselves. but being a good person and 'nice' looses a lot of it's 'charm' with God when you aren't doing it for Him. this all by the way is just coming from a christian point of view. i know you might not agree with it, i'm just explaining things from a christian point of view.
murders, adulters, disobeyers, they all can 'get' into heaven too. i don't want to make it sound like the 'big reward' but it's true. breaking the ten comandments doesn't damn you. i think we've all probably been guilty of one of them. God cares more that you have a great relationship with Him over how you follow His rules. now of course he cares about the rules, but we're all sinners. He understands we will break them. (striving to not break them is important and comes through devotion to Him). he just wants us to go to Him with our wrong doings.

ok and i keep noticing comments on God being jealous or in-tolerant. he's God. these are human attributes. if he 'seems' jealous in the old testament, i mean that's your oppinion and i respect it. but i think that he just knows what's best for us and doesn't want us to worship Gods other than Him. (mostly because in my oppinion. if he exists, all the other Gods don't. therefore they have human attributes because we created them.) God is perfect so how can he be jealous, something that he professed against.

on religion. yes, the ten commandments may show up in some form in many relgions and even the one God belief. but that doesn't make you christian. the key work in christian is Christ. Jesus Christ. if they have that guy too then we can talk... (i'm not saying if you're not christian it's bad, just explaining what it is)

yes there are many many 'bad' christians who denounce all who don't believe the same as they do. that is going aginst what the religion is founded upon. (in practice) love. please don't compare all christians to those who damn the ones who don't believe the same as they do. there's misguided ones in every religion. oh, and sorry if i am one of those. but i don't think i've ever said 'these people are going to hell'. i've only said 'these people are going to heaven'. (all according to the bible) if you're not included in the group that's going to heaven, that doesn't mean it's hell for you. that's all up to God.

ok i read the parable about the father and his two sons and one spends the money, comes back and is welcomed. i think you're absolutely right. i think God could very well do that. i am a little torn between the two however. because He gave us fair warning on what to do, believe, etc. so he could very well cast out who he said and welcome the others. but we are all His children. so He could also do wha the father did in the story. that would seem more kinda and loving to us because we get more out of the deal. but it's not about us.

as far as snake handling goes. the bible says not to test the lord thy God. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (i know you weren't agreeing with it snowbird)

Erin

Aug. 8, 2001, 07:46 AM

Guys, I tend to agree with RolexH. This has been a very interesting and thought-provoking thread, but I think it's dwindled down to just a few people and is covering a lot of the same ground. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree and let things go?

tle

Aug. 8, 2001, 07:56 AM

Oh, but Erin, I was hoping to see it hit 20 pages! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Kaori

Aug. 8, 2001, 09:28 AM

Well... Though I haven't made much comment, I have followed the thread quite diligently. I find it interesting and educational, especially TLE's and Snowbird's comments... and many others as well. <Josh, sorry, you need alot of reading and thinking to do yet so you can clarify and stand strong on your argument instread of contradicting yourself all the time, but you've got a good start. It's nice to see tolerant young adults in this world and on this forum. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif >

I imagine there are more people out there that just want to read and think about it. If people don't want to read it, they can just skip it. I do that to many threads that I find boring/silly/ignorant; that's everyone's perogative.

Just my humbe opinion of course...

Anyone up to a game of ping pong? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snowbird

Aug. 8, 2001, 11:49 AM

I agree anyone who doesn't want to read can easily not click on this thread any more. I enjoy brain exercise. There is little opportunity for it. The brain is afterall just as in need of exercise as any other part of our life support system.

An excuse to think about one of the paradoxes of life is rare and far between. There is a lot of opportunity to talk about the superficial trappings of our lives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>but being a good person and 'nice' looses a lot of it's charm' with God when you aren't doing it for Him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is the crux of the issue. I think that God is delighted with us if we are doing good and being nice.

I have read no where in the writings that indicates we must do it "FOR" Him in the sense you mean, that is as a "christian" sect publicly declaring their identity with a specific church building, philosophy and ritual.

Not to be "Clintonian" but for him is an ambiguous term. It can mean dedicated to Him as an controlling Father, or it can mean following his rules for a generally worthwhile civilization.

"In His Name" is another one of those terms that has been too generalized and interpreted by humans to mean one thing while we have no way of knowing if that means we must all call him by the same name and follow the same rituals.

I think that God would not be happy to have in his name or for Him be used as an excuse for a war that kills people, nor for hurting and injuring people. I also think that those who believe that might be very guilty of the sins of pride and vanity.

But, then that is what I think and I am not God so I can't be sure. I can only live my life the best way I know how and that is to me also from the Bible, "Judge not, lest you be judged". It also says that the judgement is God's. So those sects which teach that there is only one way and the rest are heathens doomed to hell my very well be the ones who are not in God's favor but rather misusing His Name for their own benefit.

In the end we will know who is right but we won't live to tell the tale to those we have left behind.

Josh

Aug. 10, 2001, 04:19 PM

alright, sorry if i misled anyone. i wasn't saying that all your good deeds must be done for Him, as in doing good things exclusively for God and not for anyone else. i'm sorry, it sounded a lot like that as a read over it again. i just meant that doing these good things because he says to, and because you genually feel them in your heart and spirit are what he's looking for the most. i'm not saying that if you don't believe in Him that you can't really do good things from your heart and spirit, you can. and yes, i agree. regardless of whether you're living your life for Him or not, he probably likes that you're being a good person. i just don't htink he lieks them as much. (that's why i said that when you aren't living for him it looses A LOT of it's charm. not all of it.) i agree with you snowbird. there are a lot of topics left that i would like to discuss, and even the purpose of thinking about these rarely discussed questions is worth while. and plus, i enjoy it.

snowbird (or anyone else who would like to respond). i have a question. not to get into personal questions to much, but just a quick answer is all i'm asking. do you think that i am judging anyone? and, what is your definition of 'judging' someone? thanks, i apreciate it.

sorry i'm not as well read and well spoken as many on this thread. personally, i've read my posts and don't think they condradict each other at all. but maybe that's just because they're mine and i KNOW what i believe and what i meant by each statement. or maybe i really am condradicting myself. i'll have to try harder /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird

Aug. 10, 2001, 07:55 PM

To me it is when you come to an opinion that someone is selfish, demanding, vile corrupt etc. You make a judgement about the character ability, talent, looks, intelligence based only on your opinion and from only your perspective.

For example I happen to come from a green eyed, blonde, caucasian eastern European family. All the people I love are similar in appearance. It would be hard for me to consider a person from a tribe in Africa beautiful. That is a judgement based on my perspective without understanding that beauty means different things to different people. It is my responsibility to understand that my judgement can be flawed because to that person I am equally unattractive. In the simplest terms that's what I think it means to judge not lest you be judged. I think we must take people as they are and not make judgements as to who is good, bad ugly, or guilty of a thousand other vices.

You can know that it wrong to kill another person. You can agree it is wrong to kill another person. But, you cannot judge whether another person should die. We make a bunch of judgements each day with regard to things and actions but I think when we make judgements about people it is is treading on the wrong side of righteousness.

For example I cannot judge the preacher who led those people the Jonestown, or the people who followed him. All I can judge is that it was wrong to kill them in the name of Jesus to save them from being sinners. There is no excuse for killing other people.

We should not decide whose beliefs are better or worse. We should live by our own beliefs and trust that we are wise enough not to judge other people.
When you believe that God has favorites that is a judgement and you cannot know what God thinks that is pride and vanity if you think you do. Religions that preach favoritism I think may do some good for some people but I can't judge if they are right or good, wrong or bad by God's standard.

WHY not! because then we give them the right to judge us and they might find us wanting in what we think we excell.

Carlysue

Aug. 14, 2001, 04:44 PM

WOW, I cannot believe that my post started this much discussion! I just returned from two months as a camp counselor at a Christian camp (imagine that considering my initial post /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), and I was so surprised to see that the thread went on this long. I'd like to commend everyone on being so civil (religion can be one of those touchy subjects), and answering my question. Now I do know that there is a Christian population in the equestrian world, and also plenty of others who are very interested in religion (as 20 pages of posts indicates).
Carla

~Carla~
carlysue17@hotmail.com

MarcyW

Aug. 14, 2001, 05:20 PM

So, why haven't we heard from any of the eastern religions, some of which have NO god/gods?!? Hmmm???

I have been following this thread, too, and I commend Carleysue for such a great provocation.

However, ignorance and intolerance of other religions that don't have a theistic root is abhorable, and that's what I'm seeing here.

Reminds me of the mennonites who came to my door proclaiming christianity was the oldest and best thing out there because it was the most popular. I challenged them with Muslim membership, as well as Buddhist tolerance, and Taoist philosophy, they said (and, this is a quote), "Well, that's Satan at work." When I refused to believe them, they came back with the whole damn congregation on Sunday morning!!!!!!! Christianity, at its root, is evangelical.

I honestly think that the moment you think your beliefs are the only way and try to "enlighten" others, or that belief in a god will save you and a few thousand others (out of billions) from eternal hell, you exclude yourself from any kind of global participation.

I'm not citing anyone in particular. But the advocation of theistic faiths and absence of other great and ancient spiritual faiths disturbs me, kind of makes this whole thread biased toward theism.

I'm with whomever said it earlier, this whole thread is uncomfortable and shows great bias toward western, theistic religion.

Hopefully, it will be closed soon, as the same tiring discussion about "theism" circulates.

[This message was edited by MarcyW on Aug. 14, 2001 at 08:45 PM.]

Snowbird

Aug. 14, 2001, 09:24 PM

I certainly admit that I am not very well informed
about the other great and ancient spiritual faiths
which are not theistic. I don't know that we are being so much biased as uninformed.

Could you give us some examples of such since I haven't ever seen very much written about them. My interests personally have been monotheistic but not with the intention of evangelism. I can be tolerant of some of the beliefs that have been documented on the various cable stations at different times. While I might not agree with them I can understand the logic which brought them into existence and certainly hold no harm towards those who practice those rituals.

It seems to me that any "religion" which is not theistic is actually atheist and we certainly have included that in this discussion. Most of the eastern religions that I am familiar with have the same essential issues which come to the same conclusions as monotheism as to what is a good life and one worth preserving. And in their way even atheists seem to have similar values whether or not they are attributed to a diety.

When I was in the Orient several people with whom I had a similar discussion said simply that most young people followed Shintoism which is more for the pleasures of today but as they got older they became Budhists being more concerned with tomorrow.

I don't understand why you should be bothered by the fact that in our natural enviroment most people are monotheistic, that is simply a fact. It does not in any way denegrate the minorities of others following other ideas. Nor do I find that it means that we are advocating any necessary conversion to any other conviction.

We cannot discuss what we do not know, and the issue addressed was not so generalized. We I think were looking for a definition of christianity and a way to keep a tolerance for other ideas within the scope of the topic.

tle

Aug. 15, 2001, 06:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So, why haven't we heard from any of the eastern religions, some of which have NO god/gods?!? Hmmm???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a VERY good question. I wish we had (or will). I have to agree with Snowbird... it's not that we're exclusionary, but I personally find it difficult to discuss (intelligently) subjects that I know very little about... and eastern religions for me do fall into that category.

Judging: I don't think there are many human beings that can go a day without judging something. We have to judge in order to live... "weighing our options" is a form of judging. But when we turn that judging eye towards people and their behaviors... that's what can get us into trouble. But it is a difficult question. We can judge one person's behavior and say "that is wrong" and be perfectly in the right (so to speak). ie: a person who molests children, robs or kills. But when we try to judge another's beliefs, imho, that is were we shouldn't go.

Our society is made up of laws... mostly to protect the common good and create a society were people can live peacefully (or so it is typically intended). Those laws do make a judgement on behavior... on what is good and what is bad. Thankfully, our laws do not interpret beliefs... or at least try not to.

I fear I'm not making any sense, so I'll stop. Josh... what other topics would you like to cover. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Image

Aug. 15, 2001, 10:07 AM

Hello,

I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have named my barn DaySpring Farm in honor of Luke 1:78-79 (KJV) "Through the tender mercy of our Lord, from which the Dayspring on high has visited us; To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.", and use a fish as my symbol on everything. In order to not be a hypocrite who professes a faith but ignores the image they present to the world I work to keep my walk to be in line with the teachings of the Bible so that others might see an example of true christianity. I do not pretend to be perfect, and am the first to admit that I am not perfect, just forgiven. Each person that has a personal relationship between them and God, through Jesus, should attempt to follow as closely in Jesus' footsteps as possible, for you might be the only picture of God that people are exposed to during their lifetime. I beleive that an intregal part of claiming to be a christian is a growing walk with the Lord, not a I go to church, therefore I am, not I used to go to Sunday school, therefore I am, not my father was a pastor, therefore I am. None of these things count towards the final balence between your sins and what you "owe" to God. Only Jesus has the power to absolve you of all your debt. God gave us a gift for free, because we cannot earn our salvation, only accept it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In Christ,
Image

PS - Althogh I am a christian with an evangalistic approach to life, and work to show others why salvation through Christ is the only way to heaven, I do not slam other religions nor lifestyles even though I strongly believe a christian lifestyle or religion is based solely on the bible, and not other teachings. Christianity is about loving everyone and everything in the world. "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Yes, people have and will continue to act out horrific acts of violence in the name of christianity/religion. That does not mean that christianity condones such one-minded intolerance. We live in a country where we are free to dicuss religion without persecution, and a monotheistic beleif system is one of the most common in the world. To put it simply: I am glad that we live in a country that will not persecute me for my beliefs, and I plan to continue reaching out to others with my "relegion" here and abroad.

[This message was edited by Image on Aug. 15, 2001 at 01:30 PM.]

Lammie

Aug. 16, 2001, 06:19 PM

why would it be suprising that equestrians are Christian? thats just as suprising as anyone else being Christian. How would the fact that I ride horses some how affect my religious beliefs and spirituality?

Snowbird

Aug. 16, 2001, 08:08 PM

That has to be the best post yet. And, you're right of course, I'm sure we have an equal proportion to the public in general of christians and every other belief.

There is certainly nothing in sitting astride a horse that would imply that you can't be a christian, or for that matter a member of any other conviction.

There is nothing that would prevent tolerance and the delivery of skill is not restricted to any group. That to me is the beauty and wonder of the horse. He/she doesn't care who we are, what we are or how we got there. He/she either trusts us and respects us or doesn't.

Kaori

Aug. 17, 2001, 07:39 AM

Lammie just helped me articulate a question I've trying to form ever since I started reading this thread. Between reading that post and starting to reread Thoreau's "Walden" last night, I think I can finally pose a question that I've spent quite a time thinking about.

How do people that profess faith in a religion that discourages the acquisition of material possessions justify showing horses? Showing horses is all about acquisition of material possessions. True, not all of us ride in a $5,000 Hermes... but many of us ride in $900 to $1500 saddles... then there is the cost of the horses whether is is a $100,000 Eq pony or a $1000 ottb eventer... bridles and halters... blankets... coolers... sheets... lessons... trainer fees.. show fees...truck and trailer payments... It all adds up and the more you get into horses the more it costs. Whether you do it Big time or not, it's an incredible luxary.

Though I'm not sure how to articulate this, to me there seems something not quite right in professing a religion (whatever religion) that discourages materialism but participating in a hobby that is 100% materialism.

I'm not sure if I've made this very clear and I think I've rambled quite a bit. How do you all deal with the materialism involved with showing horses and your religion's stance on materialism?

**Spel chekers, hoo neeeds 'em? Alan James Bean**

Velvet

Aug. 17, 2001, 07:57 AM

I've been away from this for a while, since I felt I'd said what I needed to at the time.

But I also feel a need to address this. Are you still talking about Christianity? If so, there is nothing that says you cannot possess material items/objects. Ofte we are blessed by God and given the opportunity to have more, if we are able to manage little (there are a few parables on this in the Bible). What we are asked to do is to tithe and give some of what we make back to those who have less. So what we are doing is passing on the blessings to others, and participating in something God is doing...which is what He always wants. He desires a close relationship with us where we seek His help in all things/everything. We do His will.

Sometimes He will give you the opportunity to possess something, but what He asks is that you don't put that before Him or before others. You are not to worship objects, but you can possess some of and it's okay.

Does that help answer the question?

Snowbird

Aug. 17, 2001, 08:57 AM

To me it is a question of motivation. If you are motivated to buy that $100,000 horse in order to pacify your personal vanity and ego then I don't think that's valid. If winning and getting applause is where the rider gets pleasure, that to me is vanity and pride which are considered sins. That uses assets granted by God for personal gratification which would mean less to tithe.

If on the other hand it is for the admiration and gratitude of God's beauty and creations, and for the effort to improve the life of one of his creatures then I think it is acceptable. Conclusion, yes! you can be a good christian and own and ride a horse.

In the olden days when there were more issues in the "horseman's code", one of the rules was you never ask how much a horse cost and you never asked to ride another's horse. It would be as rude as to ask to share his wife or her husband.

In those days too it was a sign of lack of talent if you had to pay a lot for a horse. Most horsemen if they spoke about price at all would be bragging about how cheap the horse was to be so wonderful. It was customary if there was some prevarication to deny the full investment, but certainly never brag about how big it was. Who would ever admit they were so untalented as horsemen that they had to buy a horse that was made instead of one that still had to be developed.

So perhaps, it was easier to be christian in the old days than today and be a horseman. Hunters have various classes of "Working Hunters". The working word is what was the operational factor. The "hunter" was a useful tool to make life better , protect the livestock and shows simply measured the qualities to be admired. That's a far cry from today's show scene.

Finzean

Aug. 17, 2001, 09:11 PM

Your last response certainly brings back memories! It was almost a competition to see who could come up with the greatest "find"...we all bragged about our bargain basement wonder horses.

Now I haven't been following this whole thread but I just finished reading the Prayer of Jabez written by Bruce Wilkinson. I think most Christians would find it very enlightening, particularly with regard to "blessings" and the attainment of material goods (indirectly).

Just an interesting read that can make a huge difference in your life and cause you to realize some seemingly obvious things. I know it did that for me.

_______________________

There is no crying in baseball!!!

Snowbird

Aug. 18, 2001, 07:38 AM

I just watched a fascinating program which ties together much of our thoughts here. The name of the book is "Why Won't God Go Away".

Someone has actually taken the science of the brain and related it to the effects on our physiology do to time taken to forget about "self" and become part of a bigger concept.

There actually is physical benefit regardless of the technique. The author also discusses how "rituals" assist in this process which apparently does produce healing mechanisms.

This is a must read for all of us. It appears to answer the questions we have all asked, is God a perception or is he real.

Josh

Aug. 20, 2001, 02:46 PM

i do not believe owning or showing a horse is materialism, just like owning a fancy car isn't. It's all in how you view the horse, car, bike, guitar... whatever. (i'm not trying to make the horse seem like an inanimate object). i don't ride horses, but i do play guitar. it's amazing how much people spend on guitars, amps, speaker cabs, even cables. $139 for a 50 foot peice of cable. i pay $5 and it sounds great. it's a hobby, (a lifestyle to many) and as long as you keep your priorities straight, i don't believe there's anything wrong with it.

Judging: always the topic in a religious discusion. i think tle said it. we all judge. some people believe a women should be a mans posesion. so, if i say this belief is wrong, then i am judging what he feels in his heart to be true. i agree i shouldn't cast him out, and curse him for believing that. i think the only one who CAN judge, is God. and as far as me being 'vain and proud' for thinking something is wrong in the name of the lord. i know God. everyone can know Him. there's so many things that i don't understand, but i have a feeling on which way they should go, and which way God would want them to go. all based on his teachings, spending time with Him, and following what He wants. then i end up learning about them and that 'instinct' on how God saw it was correct. now it's not my job to go tell everyone how horrible they are in Gods eyes. (me, you, everyone is full of sinfullness in Gods perfect expectations. but we are forgiven because of His love) but i will have my oppinion. i also will be tolerent of their beliefs. TOLERENT, not condoning. there's a big difference. everyone has i right to choose, that doesn't make every choice right. and i respect and condone their RIGHT to choose. not always their choice. i know many of you are thinking right now how it isn't my place to say what's right and wrong. you're right, it's not. it's God who is always our standard. but i believe i know Him, and i know most of His standards. not saying that they're right for everyone, or everyone must listen to me or burn in hell. i'm just stating my feelings. just like you view intolerence and murder as wrong (as i do). i feel just as strongly about what I say is wrong. and somehow that's viewed as intlolerence. then you also are intolerent if you think someones philosophy on how molesting kids is right because 'they're my kids', is wrong. but only God REALLY knows. once again, sorry if this sounds really un-informed and close minded. i just think so differently than many of you on here. (example: my level of 'sinnfulness' on the issue of blaspheme of the holy spirit, may be to me, as horrible as murder is to many of you) does that kind of clarify?

image. wow, you put it really well, awsome job.

well we really haven't discussed much of eastern religion have we? if anyone wants to add a post on their beliefs in any of the eastern faiths. go ahead. personally i don't know all that much about any of them so... if anyone who does wants to enlighten us (no pun intended) please do. and also, there may not be many because it's a christian themed thread.

finzean. thanks for the prayer of jabez recomendation. my church is starting up a discusion group on that. i might check it out /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

well, thanks again everyone for being so civil. i'm sorry if i offended anyone. write back /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif