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View Full Version : Who reads German? Klaus Martin Rath on Rolkur and Totilas



akrogirl
May. 2, 2012, 10:51 AM
Eurodressage posted this link to an article that appeared in a major German newspaper and, apparently, discusses the change in approach to Totilas' training. Unfortunately, my German isn't good enough to figure it out.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/umstrittene-dressur-praxis-dagegen-protestieren-wir-auf-das-schaerfste-11736668.html

mbm
May. 2, 2012, 10:55 AM
i think this is the most interesting part:

"Applying the "Rollkur" means a complete reversal of the Kronberger family dressage. Just two years ago had the 27-year-old rider, trainer and his father and his step-mother and co-owner Ann-Kathrin Totilas Linsenhoff condemns hyperflexion harsh."

also it appears that there were complaints about the work being done.

leilatigress
May. 2, 2012, 10:58 AM
Google Translate did this:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/umstrittene-dressur-praxis-dagegen-protestieren-wir-auf-das-schaerfste-11736668.html&ei=OkuhT8TKGIm-8ATIq6SQCA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTotilas%2Bl%25C3%25A4sst%2Bniemanden% 2Bkalt.%2BAllerdings%2Bdrehen%2Bsich%2Bdie%2BDisku ssionen%2Bnach%2Bseinen%2BSiegen%2Bvom%2BWochenend e%2Bweniger%2Bum%2Bdie%2BGlanztaten%2Bdes%2BDressu rpferds%2Bim%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DK9b%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
May. 2, 2012, 01:33 PM
Me : )
SO, firstly this is great because this is in one the major national daily German papers, not some horsey publication.

Familie Rath bestreitet nicht, in der Prüfungsvorbereitung neuerdings mit einer Methode zu arbeiten, die als „Rollkur“, „Hyperflexion“ oder „Long, deep and round/LDR“ bekannt ist. Sie baut auf die Unterwerfung eines Pferdes durch extremes Aufrollen des Pferdehalses. Dies setzt das Pferd physisch und psychisch unter Spannung und schränkt sein Gesichtsfeld ein. Fachleute sprechen von erheblichen Folgeschäden. Ohne Aggression erlaubt der Weltverband die „Rollkur“ für weniger als zehn Minuten. Diese Regel wird allerdings von den Verfechtern der klassischen Reiterei abgelehnt.

The Rath family does not argue that they have recently started using this method called Rollkur, hyperflexion or LDR (NOTE: they say it's all the same!) to prepare for tests. It counts on submitting the horse through extreme rolling in of the horse's neck. This puts the horse under a lot of physical and psychological pressure and limits its field of vision.
Without aggression the FEI allows it for less than 10 minutes. This rule is argued by proponents of classical riding.

Klaus Martin Rath räumte am Dienstag gegenüber der F.A.Z. ein, dass „Matthias etwa zehn Minuten lang etwas mehr Kontrolle“ gebraucht habe. Dazu habe er eine „etwas tiefere Einstellung“ praktiziert. Die Bilder zeigen allerdings eine konsequente Anwendung der Hyperflexion, die vom klassischen Ideal, dass die Stirn des Pferdes nicht hinter die Senkrechte kommen soll, extrem abweicht. „Der Hengst steht im Deckeinsatz“, erklärte Rath, „er hat ein stolzes Selbstbewusstsein.“

Klaus Rath admitted on Tuesday that Matthias "needed a little more control for about 10 min", for that he "needed to ride the horse a little deeper". But the picture show a consistent application of hyperflexion that differs profoundly from the classical ideal not to have the horse behind the vertical. "The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."

NOMIOMI1
May. 2, 2012, 02:16 PM
We need to ge away from this and I think the solution is judges giving more and more score for the less electric animal so they CAN be more relaxed.

Valegro is an example of a horse that shows tremendous effort without that zapped look and lurch from every leg aid.

If they dont have to be so zooted to ths point of out of control then they dont need so much submission.

I think Rath is a little in survival mode with his new stallion which I completely understand, however keying it all down a bit would save everyone the headache rk has become imo.

We dont need the hind end jerking upward just a nice soft strong lift...

I dont think for a second this horse has it easier with Rath but )
Gals riding is uber electric causing now obvious problems.

eks
May. 2, 2012, 04:35 PM
"The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."[/I]

You don't see Carl Hester riding Uthopia around like that!! Ughh...makes me want to cry when I watch Totilas go....especially looking at the warm up pictures. I would love to someone like Charlotte Dujardin on that horse.

akrogirl
May. 2, 2012, 04:47 PM
Me : )
SO, firstly this is great because this is in one the major national daily German papers, not some horsey publication.

Familie Rath bestreitet nicht, in der Prüfungsvorbereitung neuerdings mit einer Methode zu arbeiten, die als „Rollkur“, „Hyperflexion“ oder „Long, deep and round/LDR“ bekannt ist. Sie baut auf die Unterwerfung eines Pferdes durch extremes Aufrollen des Pferdehalses. Dies setzt das Pferd physisch und psychisch unter Spannung und schränkt sein Gesichtsfeld ein. Fachleute sprechen von erheblichen Folgeschäden. Ohne Aggression erlaubt der Weltverband die „Rollkur“ für weniger als zehn Minuten. Diese Regel wird allerdings von den Verfechtern der klassischen Reiterei abgelehnt.

The Rath family does not argue that they have recently started using this method called Rollkur, hyperflexion or LDR (NOTE: they say it's all the same!) to prepare for tests. It counts on submitting the horse through extreme rolling in of the horse's neck. This puts the horse under a lot of physical and psychological pressure and limits its field of vision.
Without aggression the FEI allows it for less than 10 minutes. This rule is argued by proponents of classical riding.

Klaus Martin Rath räumte am Dienstag gegenüber der F.A.Z. ein, dass „Matthias etwa zehn Minuten lang etwas mehr Kontrolle“ gebraucht habe. Dazu habe er eine „etwas tiefere Einstellung“ praktiziert. Die Bilder zeigen allerdings eine konsequente Anwendung der Hyperflexion, die vom klassischen Ideal, dass die Stirn des Pferdes nicht hinter die Senkrechte kommen soll, extrem abweicht. „Der Hengst steht im Deckeinsatz“, erklärte Rath, „er hat ein stolzes Selbstbewusstsein.“

Klaus Rath admitted on Tuesday that Matthias "needed a little more control for about 10 min", for that he "needed to ride the horse a little deeper". But the picture show a consistent application of hyperflexion that differs profoundly from the classical ideal not to have the horse behind the vertical. "The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."

Thank you :-) Given the somewhat controversial subject matter, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any possible subtle nuances of language.

CHT
May. 2, 2012, 05:26 PM
You don't see Carl Hester riding Uthopia around like that!! Ughh...makes me want to cry when I watch Totilas go....especially looking at the warm up pictures. I would love to someone like Charlotte Dujardin on that horse.

I wonder how easy it is to retrain a horse used to LDR, to no longer "need" it to warm up/school. As toto is used to that method of schooling, I imagine it would require considerable time to rewrite his warm up routine...time that Rath doesn't really have.

I also think NOT using LRD would very much change how Toto moves as the muscles/ligaments aren't being prepared in the same way...so then Rath gets slammed for ruining how the horse moves as payment from trying to school in a kinder manner. Really Lose lose for Rath.

Petstorejunkie
May. 2, 2012, 06:55 PM
CHT I've thought the same thing. RK stretches tissues that aren't elastic, they never go back to normal once stretched I wonder if one of the worst consequences of RK is that eventually they need it to get a good stretch.
I think 20 years from now we will look back and events like this will be the ones that were the twists and turns in Dressage's story. If it were a society the timing is about right for a collapse and rebuild.

LanceBehind
May. 4, 2012, 05:01 AM
Watch some training and warm up videos from yesterday and 20 years ago.

http://tinyurl.com/6mhk4yw

alicen
May. 4, 2012, 06:02 AM
RK stretches tissues that aren't elastic, they never go back to normal once stretched

Specifically, please, which tissues would these be?

Bluey
May. 4, 2012, 07:21 AM
Specifically, please, which tissues would these be?

;)

As a gymnast, I can tell you you can stretch all kinds of structures, hyperstretch them even regularly.
That is part of training that makes them stronger, not weak and limp.

Doesn't look that he is being hurt, or he would not have been at the top of his athletic game all these years.

Then, what do I know.:confused:

Petstorejunkie
May. 4, 2012, 08:10 AM
Well, here are some definitions that may help.
tendonsplural of ten·don (Noun)
Noun:
A flexible but inelastic cord of strong fibrous collagen tissue attaching a muscle to a bone.
The hamstring of a quadruped.



lig·a·ment/ˈligəmənt/
Noun:
A short band of tough, flexible, fibrous connective tissue that connects two bones or cartilages or holds together a joint.
A membranous fold that supports an organ and keeps it in position.


I know when my horse tweaked his knee and we xrayed it, my vet said due to the tissues effected it could never be as solid as his other knee again because the tissues are like a balloon, once blown up they never shrink back perfectly normal again.

BaroquePony
May. 4, 2012, 08:35 AM
The Nuchal ligament is the one that there is concern about .....

Bluey
May. 4, 2012, 08:38 AM
Well, here are some definitions that may help.
tendonsplural of ten·don (Noun)
Noun:
A flexible but inelastic cord of strong fibrous collagen tissue attaching a muscle to a bone.
The hamstring of a quadruped.



lig·a·ment/ˈligəmənt/
Noun:
A short band of tough, flexible, fibrous connective tissue that connects two bones or cartilages or holds together a joint.
A membranous fold that supports an organ and keeps it in position.


I know when my horse tweaked his knee and we xrayed it, my vet said due to the tissues effected it could never be as solid as his other knee again because the tissues are like a balloon, once blown up they never shrink back perfectly normal again.

You are taking training out of context there, talking about pathology, that can happen due to injuries, not regular training.

Sure, if the horse is standing in the pasture, it won't overstretch.
Then, you have known horses get injured in the pasture, running around and hopefully don't quit turning horses out because they can get injured?

There is a BIG difference there.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it doesn't make sense to dismiss something because in the extreme it could maybe be injurious.

I am from the time that behind the bit was the worst you could have a horse go, where "disengaging" was unthinkable, where the spanish walk was considered disuniting and never to be taught.

I know now that we have to consider what we do a bit more and not dismiss offhand something others do just because we don't like it or is new/different, when we don't have good reasons for it.

We are doing just that, you are not saying rollkur is bad, but saying whoever uses it is an abuser, as you imply there, because you don't have your facts straight, I don't think.
Just getting on a horse's back, or asking for collection is, according to your very narrow definition, hurtful to the horse, to have to carry the rider's weight, to have to carry both weights over it's hocks.

I say, lets train the way we choose and give others the right to do so, short of real abuse.

mbm
May. 4, 2012, 10:52 AM
did you guys see what the bruhaha is all about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Okxe_21E0

Bluey
May. 4, 2012, 12:05 PM
did you guys see what the bruhaha is all about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Okxe_21E0

Looks like a video made by some with an axe to grind for their five minutes of glory.

Put them on that horse right there and lets see what they could do.:lol:
I do think the previous rider made the horse look easy, this one may be a bit overmounted.;)

If that is rollkur and so objectionable, pfff to all those that want to use that for their agendas.:rolleyes:
Better go tilt at other windmills, I say.:yes:

nhwr
May. 4, 2012, 12:45 PM
Soft tissue is definitely elastic. Ask anyone who does yoga. :rolleyes:

It is certainly possible to go beyond the elastic tolerance of tendons and ligaments by force or trauma. That isn't what is happening in rolkur. There is a lot more to the way Gal rode Totilas than what was going on with the horse's chin. The continued (over) focus on that aspect of the training program is ridiculous.

dressagegirl123
May. 4, 2012, 11:23 PM
I have a horse who was trained in rollkur until 9 years old. It took 4 years to change his connection to one where I can train with poll up and a longer neck. There were no physical issues that made it impossible, it just takes a long time to rework muscles and a horse's understanding of how you want him to go.

I am certainly not defending the Raths' use of rollkur (it is a nightmare to ride), but there is no way they are going to spend years on changing Totalis. They are expected (by their entire country and the world, it seems) to make it work NOW! For the gold medal at the OLYMPICS! :(

Mardi
May. 4, 2012, 11:33 PM
They are expected (by their entire country and the world, it seems) to make it work NOW! For the gold medal at the OLYMPICS! :(

Isn't that one of the reasons they bought him ?

ZiggyStardust
May. 4, 2012, 11:38 PM
Watch some training and warm up videos from yesterday and 20 years ago.

http://tinyurl.com/6mhk4yw

I have heard that this rider is one of the first that achieved international success at shows under this method. Still doesn't mean it should be used. Weak and sad people.

ZiggyStardust
May. 4, 2012, 11:48 PM
Looks like a video made by some with an axe to grind for their five minutes of glory.

Put them on that horse right there and lets see what they could do.:lol:
I do think the previous rider made the horse look easy, this one may be a bit overmounted.;)

If that is rollkur and so objectionable, pfff to all those that want to use that for their agendas.:rolleyes:
Better go tilt at other windmills, I say.:yes:

So...this is the idea of training to produce a horse that is joyful and efficient to ride? Muscling it around like a low-functioning monkey because you have leverage available to use on its mouth? This type of riding is just a means to an end.

That end is not to make a useful, obedient, participating riding horse, which is what the military would have needed, and any person who would like to enjoy the experience of riding a partner in the field would like to experience. This is about winning for the glory of the human. Period.

Bluey
May. 5, 2012, 12:10 AM
So...this is the idea of training to produce a horse that is joyful and efficient to ride? Muscling it around like a low-functioning monkey because you have leverage available to use on its mouth? This type of riding is just a means to an end.

That end is not to make a useful, obedient, participating riding horse, which is what the military would have needed, and any person who would like to enjoy the experience of riding a partner in the field would like to experience. This is about winning for the glory of the human. Period.

I won't disagree, but so is any other we do with horses, from the time we fence them in and get on their backs.

You have the right to not like what others do, but not to insult others because you don't like what they do.
Living in glass houses and all that.:(

ZiggyStardust
May. 5, 2012, 03:23 AM
I won't disagree, but so is any other we do with horses, from the time we fence them in and get on their backs.

You have the right to not like what others do, but not to insult others because you don't like what they do.
Living in glass houses and all that.:(

Hmm, didn't know you were the arbiter of rights.

Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans. I suspect the first time they were ridden and then fenced in, it may have been about mutual survival, not about winning ribbons.

alicen
May. 5, 2012, 05:43 AM
Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans.

Errr, earth to Ziggy. You might want to edit the evolution bit: you can't have horses evolving and being purpose-bred at the same time.

Lynnwood
May. 5, 2012, 06:05 AM
The one thing I really did not like was the head bobbing was very similar to the rhythmic head shaking found in TWH's especially the big lick horses. NO idea if that is his way of going now or a result of the RK.

alicen
May. 5, 2012, 06:30 AM
The head bobbing started when Rath started riding him, supposedly w/o rollkur.

Lynnwood
May. 5, 2012, 06:58 AM
The head bobbing started when Rath started riding him, supposedly w/o rollkur.

Its distracting and IMHO is moments away from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt1YjjH7fcs head bobbing and exaggerated front end. Can't even compare it to ASB's because even with all their front end and toe flipping they hold their heads still.

I know ^ is me exaggerating but still. If the super front end means a wonky head .. give it a rest already.

Bluey
May. 5, 2012, 07:05 AM
Hmm, didn't know you were the arbiter of rights.

Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans. I suspect the first time they were ridden and then fenced in, it may have been about mutual survival, not about winning ribbons.

Ok, you can have any rights you want, including the right to insult others if you want to.:)
Lets say that doing so reflects more on you than on those you may intend to insult.:yes:

There is so, so much I don't like in life, that we do to ourselves, our environment and to and with our horses.
Still, most humans understand that the world really doesn't revolve around what we like or dislike only, that all of us get to play, each one as we see best.

Just think, there is so much you do that others would like to insult you for it.
Just owning animals and riding horses, before you get to HOW you ride them.

Did you look at that video posted?
Seems that is what we are talking about when it comes to RK.
To me, in there, RK looked more of an evasion the very hot horse was using than a training technique the rider was asking for.
It looked like the rider had a keg of dynamite in it's hands and it was slippery, RK making it more so, not more manageable.
That is a pitfall of any horse that leaned to go behind the bit, if RK or not.
If I had been that rider, I would have been a bit annoyed in that situation, to have the horse revert to RK and, as the rider does there, try to use what was given, even if not what he would have preferred.
He does get the horse back, now that is admirable.

Then, what do I know, that is just my opinion and yes, you are very much entitled to yours without anyone needing to give you permission to have an opinion.

I still think you were directly insulting in your post, that being insulting no matter what real or imagined provocation, is poor conduct and worse logic when trying to debate and that is MY opinion.

mbm
May. 5, 2012, 09:44 AM
this whole *thing* has been very eye opening to me.

what is on that video is not anywhere near "bad" enough to warrant the full scale mobilization and attack that is going on.

Honestly, i am so anti PR/marketing already and now even more so as the sheep are lead to follow what ever whim the (anti) machine puts out. and yes, i will be crucified for saying this as i used to be "one of them" when this whole things was in its infancy, but i think what they are doing is wrong.

most of the folks screaming from the rooftops have no idea what they are even talking about - most are not well seated dressage riders... and really while of course in this day and age, we can shout about anything we want - to be taken seriously you really do need to have some kind of basis in theory and ability.

My guess is that this "whole thing" was started by someones who want to help the other teams.

<shrug> count me now for one that will NOT shout about what was sen in that video - bring back the queen and king of crank and sure - but that video?

really?

opel
May. 5, 2012, 11:03 AM
Just took a look at "the video". I honestly see more "abusive riding" at our local shows and at any kind of 4H or Pony club event. Poor riding can certainly equal abusive riding, even though it's not intended. Rath may not ride as well as Gal but he's still a very competent horseman who is riding this horse fine. Sure, Totilas has moments of tension and inattention. Rath has to deal with what he has. Will anyone honestly assert that they could take a hot, electric breeding stallion to a big show and not experience some tension in the warmup? Are people on this board deluded in expectations? I am a big fan of Gal and I think he could have "massaged" the tension out with his seat and used his extraordinary relationship with Totilas to make the warmup quieter. The fact that Rath can't do this does NOT make him an abusive or a crappy rider. Judge not...less you be judged people! The rollkur? Hum, whatever. Doesn't seem overdone here.

LarkspurCO
May. 5, 2012, 11:40 AM
I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.:)

Sometimes he rollkurs himself. He went through a phase earlier this year where he wanted to go around with his chin on his chest for the first 10-15 minutes of every ride. I figured he needed the stretch so I let him do it. I suppose I should have reported him for self-mutilation. After all, he could have permanently overstretched his nuchal ligament!

Bluey
May. 5, 2012, 11:43 AM
I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.:)

Sometimes he rollkurs himself. He went through a phase earlier this year where he wanted to go around with his chin on his chest for the first 10-15 minutes of every ride. I figured he needed the stretch so I let him do it. I suppose I should have reported him for self-mutilation. After all, he could have permanently overstretched his nuchal ligament!

:lol:

MelantheLLC
May. 5, 2012, 05:39 PM
I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.:)


Really. If that's horse abuse, sign me up for the classes. :cool:

Equibrit
May. 6, 2012, 06:04 PM
You are taking training out of context there, talking about pathology, that can happen due to injuries, not regular training.


Regular training can cause INJURY.

Bluey
May. 6, 2012, 06:14 PM
Regular training can cause INJURY.

True, so can walking out in the pasture.
In fact, in general, the more/better a horse is conditioned and trained, the LESS it will chance getting injured, because he is better at his task and more physically able compared with the equivalent of a couch potato half heartedly working out and then competing or trying to get around in a hurry.

BaroquePony
May. 6, 2012, 09:35 PM
Posted by opel:

Will anyone honestly assert that they could take a hot, electric breeding stallion to a big show and not experience some tension in the warmup?

:lol:

Eventer13
May. 6, 2012, 10:44 PM
Not a fan of RK, but honestly that video was far, far from being abusive. I thought it was going to be 10min of nose to chest, and he maybe had the horse in a deep/rollkur-ish position for 2 or 3 thirty second intervals. Not exactly causing the horse permanent damage there.

BaroquePony
May. 6, 2012, 11:42 PM
http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5050

The first ride (Isabel Werth) I think the horse is quite aggitated ... I am basing that on the tail swatting and the stilted gait.

So, I don't agree with the commentator.

All three of the videos on the above link show the same aggitation in each of the individual horses.

SnicklefritzG
May. 6, 2012, 11:48 PM
[snip]

I also think NOT using LRD would very much change how Toto moves as the muscles/ligaments aren't being prepared in the same way...so then Rath gets slammed for ruining how the horse moves as payment from trying to school in a kinder manner. Really Lose lose for Rath.


I think it has been "lose lose" for Rath since he got the ride. He is always going to be compared to Gal and looked at under a microscope...

LarkspurCO
May. 7, 2012, 12:55 AM
On the other hand, there is no such thing as bad publicity.;)

How many people would know Matthias Rath from Adam if it weren't for Edward Gal and Totilas?

alicen
May. 7, 2012, 06:21 AM
How many people would know Matthias Rath from Adam if it weren't for Edward Gal and Totilas?

Anybody who follows European dressage competitions.

WILLOW&CAL
May. 7, 2012, 08:45 AM
Except now Rath is known as 'the other rider' by the Gal/Toto fans and unless he performs some sort of classical miracle on this horse, he will always be frowned upon by the masses. I personally would not want THAT kind of publicity. I feel for Rath, I really do.

netg
May. 7, 2012, 11:32 AM
Not a fan of RK, but honestly that video was far, far from being abusive. I thought it was going to be 10min of nose to chest, and he maybe had the horse in a deep/rollkur-ish position for 2 or 3 thirty second intervals. Not exactly causing the horse permanent damage there.

Yep.

And really, the horse was bringing his nose way in to some extent of his own volition like "oh, this is my comfortable, trained position to get my head on straight" rather than any kind of overly forceful disaster.

I've seen UGLY riding in the warmup. While I'd prefer everything be sunshine and daisies and no horse ever go deep in warmup to increase control - this riding just didn't bother me so much. Yes, I'd love to see Totilas get long and low as a stretch toward the end of a warmup and don't think I ever have, but whatever, I'd get injured if I were the one trying to ride him there!

MelantheLLC
May. 7, 2012, 11:39 AM
How many people would know Matthias Rath from Adam if it weren't for Edward Gal and Totilas?

Well I knew who he was because I loved Sterntaler and the way he rode that rather difficult horse. (Got his autograph on a cap at WEG!) I think he was better known in Europe than here pre-Toto.

But yeah, my heart sank when I heard he was taking the ride. No question it was no-win for him in terms of PR. OTOH, if all you want to do in life is please everyone, good luck with that. Over the past year I've come to admire his grace under pressure. And frankly the warm-up video posted here as "abusive" just makes me admire him all the more. He is a lovely quiet rider getting to know his horse and trying to get the best out of him in the midst of a public sh*t-storm.

mbm
May. 7, 2012, 11:43 AM
Yep.

And really, the horse was bringing his nose way in to some extent of his own volition like "oh, this is my comfortable, trained position to get my head on straight" rather than any kind of overly forceful disaster.

I've seen UGLY riding in the warmup. While I'd prefer everything be sunshine and daisies and no horse ever go deep in warmup to increase control - this riding just didn't bother me so much. Yes, I'd love to see Totilas get long and low as a stretch toward the end of a warmup and don't think I ever have, but whatever, I'd get injured if I were the one trying to ride him there!

so so so agree! i was getting spanked on FB by stating the above! i can NOT believe folks are up in arms about what is in that video! it really really weakens their position to be clamoring about it!

my guess is that many of the folks clamoring have never ridden or trained a difficult horse (nor trained properly up the levels for that matter) and or if they have they are clamoring for a financial reason (aka their clients clamor so they need to to be one of the "approved" trainers) or it is a media publication that base is the anti crowd etc.

in other words: i believe very few good trainers or riders would complain about that video very loudly. It isnt how i would ride - but i sure am not going to shout about it.....

i think i am with the german FN on this... it isnt classical riding.... but it is not abuse in this instance.

mbm
May. 7, 2012, 11:48 AM
As for Rath - I think he is going to surprise everyone. the most recent rides have been so much improved over the earlier rides --- but it takes time to learn a new horse and for a relationship to form.

My ever optimistic POV is that now that they went "there” and found how it works, they will quietly behind the scenes begin to work the horse more correctly. We may or may not see it before the Olympics, but my guess is that German pride will not let this be and that they will train Totlis in the German system. Of course this is assuming Totilas plays along :)

And I will say one thing: Totilas's body looks so much better than when he was being ridden by Gal. I *hated* how Totilas looked under Gal - except for the warm-ups where T was allowed to be loose and flexible.

So I have hope :)

LarkspurCO
May. 7, 2012, 12:56 PM
Anybody who follows European dressage competitions.

I guess the better question to have asked is how many more people now know who Matthias Rath is because of Totilas. Plenty, I'm sure.

Frankly, he has had some great opportunities for positive PR with Totilas -- some nice photo spreads, the video with the little girl, interviews, etc. He has shown himself with poise and class under pressure, considering all of the attention (negative, positive, or otherwise). He has made a very good impression on me.

Blkarab
May. 7, 2012, 01:38 PM
Larkspur...I agree. I saw him ride at WEG and loved his ride. He has handled all the pressure quite well for someone so young. He's only in his 20's. I couldn't imagine having to handle this kind of pressure at his age.

The last couple of videos with Rath and Toto show a new sense of calm between the pair. Their relationship is just getting started...and it takes a lot of time to get to know a new horse, let alone one so talented that has 2 different jobs...breeding and showing. That's a lot to handle for both the horse and the rider.

I'm anxious to see how this pair develops over the next couple of years. Hopefully, the hype will die down after the Olympics.

Spectrum
May. 7, 2012, 03:22 PM
Looks like a video made by some with an axe to grind for their five minutes of glory.

Put them on that horse right there and lets see what they could do.:lol:
I do think the previous rider made the horse look easy, this one may be a bit overmounted.;)

If that is rollkur and so objectionable, pfff to all those that want to use that for their agendas.:rolleyes:
Better go tilt at other windmills, I say.:yes:

An axe to grind?

Sure, because anyone who watches that video and notices the curb is at **90 degrees** for almost the whole thing clearly has no idea of how to ride, they must just be commenting because they have an axe to grind.

Note that I actually think stretching the horse periodically can have benefits, however any therapeutic value achieved through stretching is going to be nixed if you're achieving it by torquing on your curb rein like that.

Bogie
May. 7, 2012, 04:10 PM
If that's what all the fuss is about, that's a tempest in a tea kettle.

netg
May. 7, 2012, 06:21 PM
An axe to grind?

Sure, because anyone who watches that video and notices the curb is at **90 degrees** for almost the whole thing clearly has no idea of how to ride, they must just be commenting because they have an axe to grind.

Note that I actually think stretching the horse periodically can have benefits, however any therapeutic value achieved through stretching is going to be nixed if you're achieving it by torquing on your curb rein like that.

Honestly, based on how the horse reacted I'd be more likely to see it and think "gee, his curb chain must be very loose."

Manni01
May. 7, 2012, 07:05 PM
Honestly, based on how the horse reacted I'd be more likely to see it and think "gee, his curb chain must be very loose."

And you think, these very experienced horse people ride with a loose curb chain??? interesting thought....

inspired
May. 8, 2012, 11:26 AM
If the curb chain were not on the loose side, the shank could not come that far back. A very tight curb chain will cause the shanks to hardly move at all. Just because the shanks are or are not rotated does not mean someone is or is not pulling hard on them. The tightness of the curb chain is generally decided by how the horse responds to the mechanics of the curb bit.

...so, not to speak for netg, but I will say that yes, very experienced horse people do ride with loose curb chains when called for.

inspired
May. 8, 2012, 11:29 AM
also, interestingly enough, I've noticed that a lot of riders using rollkur or rollkur-like techniques tend to adjust their curb chains looser. IME, the looser curb chain will encourage the horse to lower it's head, so this is probably not a coincidence.

LanceBehind
May. 8, 2012, 04:27 PM
Here a short video clip of the way Matthias is training Totilas at home :

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5071

netg
May. 8, 2012, 06:04 PM
If the curb chain were not on the loose side, the shank could not come that far back. A very tight curb chain will cause the shanks to hardly move at all. Just because the shanks are or are not rotated does not mean someone is or is not pulling hard on them. The tightness of the curb chain is generally decided by how the horse responds to the mechanics of the curb bit.

...so, not to speak for netg, but I will say that yes, very experienced horse people do ride with loose curb chains when called for.

In this case, feel free to speak for me. :)


How one wants to define "called for" varies, but this horse certainly is giving no indication of the discomfort you'd think he'd be feeling if the reins were pulled as hard as I tend to think I'd be pulling to get the shank at that angle if I were the one adjusting the chain.

Manni01
May. 8, 2012, 07:26 PM
I think this is a very tricky thing to talk about... In my Days of higher Dressage in a professional Stable, I saw many different bits. Also the lenghts of the shanks are very different...
I learned at these days, a curb-chain has to be adjusted in a way to allow the shanks an angle of 45 degrees from the line of the mouth. Not more and not less... So either to loose or to tight was wrong...
So if I listen to you this has changed now....

MorganJumper848
May. 8, 2012, 07:50 PM
Here a short video clip of the way Matthias is training Totilas at home :

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5071

I don't think this is that bad. It looks more like he is trying to get the horse to stretch. He doesn't have tight reins and also is not "cramping" his head in. It is loosely held in that deeper position.

netg
May. 9, 2012, 01:12 AM
I think this is a very tricky thing to talk about... In my Days of higher Dressage in a professional Stable, I saw many different bits. Also the lenghts of the shanks are very different...
I learned at these days, a curb-chain has to be adjusted in a way to allow the shanks an angle of 45 degrees from the line of the mouth. Not more and not less... So either to loose or to tight was wrong...
So if I listen to you this has changed now....

Don't listen. Look at photos and videos. You can see chains are adjusted various ways, regardless of what is correct.

LanceBehind
May. 9, 2012, 09:25 AM
At the press conference at Hagen Matthias said. "From now on I stop trying to please the crowd and only take decisions based on my own feelings" and "I already got used to the fact that if we win it's Totilas that won and if we lose it was Matthias that lost"

mbm
May. 9, 2012, 10:21 AM
i do not know if the above is a true quote, but if so good for Matthias!

MelantheLLC
May. 9, 2012, 06:08 PM
At the press conference at Hagen Matthias said. "From now on I stop trying to please the crowd and only take decisions based on my own feelings" and "I already got used to the fact that if we win it's Totilas that won and if we lose it was Matthias that lost"

I don't think he learned that from Sjef. :lol:

Sjef could take a lesson in personal grooming from Matthias though.

SnicklefritzG
May. 9, 2012, 09:22 PM
@MelantheLLC: I thought Sjef looked pretty good in his interview with Larry King:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMQroYw_pp8

Carol Ames
May. 10, 2012, 08:23 PM
It also says that, in the past the horse had been ridden to world record scores by Gal who, is one of the riders from the dutch school where RK developed; also, in the EM a little "freshness " was permitted and the scores were not good. It implies pretty directly that EG used RK with Totilas to obtain his high scores:eek:

BaroquePony
May. 10, 2012, 08:28 PM
:yes:

Carol Ames
May. 11, 2012, 08:45 AM
It states fairly directly, with RK/ force:mad: came high scores;), world record scores, without come poor:o scores, no medals; also, though the horse brought a promise of Gold medals:cool: to the German team, and was worth millions there is now no one:no:to lease/ support him; his value lies only in past:cry: records

Carol Ames
May. 11, 2012, 08:50 AM
Larry King talks about dressage training:lol:; Who would have thunk:confused: it?

@MelantheLLC: I thought Sjef looked pretty good in his interview with Larry King:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMQroYw_pp8

Carol Ames
May. 11, 2012, 09:26 AM
http://youtu.be/EYThblo74hg

mbm
May. 11, 2012, 09:47 AM
http://youtu.be/EYThblo74hg

lovely video, thanks for posting... i wish we could see more of the training... it is fascinating!

LanceBehind
May. 12, 2012, 11:36 AM
lovely video, thanks for posting... i wish we could see more of the training... it is fascinating!

I don't think you want to see more of the training :no:

But if you want to see more : Go to Vienna 06.00 AM, have breakfast in Sacher and sneak in the Riding School before the tourists come.