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Marcella
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:24 PM
Anyone ever heard of him or rode with him? A friend of mine is or had a clinic with him. Plus, I don't want to be a total dope and be like "Who's that?" if he is a BNT. Since there is a little anonymity here, I thought I would ask. Plus, you guys seem to know everything about everyone and offer great insights on trainers!

TS Clique*Chestnut TB Jumper Clique*GPA Clique*Do It Yourself Clique

Marcella
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:24 PM
Anyone ever heard of him or rode with him? A friend of mine is or had a clinic with him. Plus, I don't want to be a total dope and be like "Who's that?" if he is a BNT. Since there is a little anonymity here, I thought I would ask. Plus, you guys seem to know everything about everyone and offer great insights on trainers!

TS Clique*Chestnut TB Jumper Clique*GPA Clique*Do It Yourself Clique

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:32 PM
If I remember correctly there was quite a thread about him last year!!! Do a search and you'll see what I mean.

"I'll lean on you and you lean on me and we'll be okay"
- Dave Matthews

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

MKM
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:32 PM
i've never met him or ridden with him.
but do a search on this board or on google and i'm sure you'll find plenty of information that will help with your decision.

MKM
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:33 PM
whoops, double post!

BenRidin
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:34 PM
He's got quite a name for himself actually. IMO he is a great equitation trainer and I would leap at the chance to ride with him.. most of his kids usually win.
Unfortunatley, a while back he was involved in a serious scandal with killing horses for insurance money (I'm sure you will be hearing more about it from one of the many haters of him on this board /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) It's okay not to have heard of him.. everyone had a point where they didn't know who he was. If you are asking whether or not to take a lesson with him I say go for it.. even if you don't like someone it doesnt hurt to take an extra lesson - u never know what could come out of that.

~BenRidin

Medievalist
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:35 PM
Oh Lordy. Do a search. And be careful of those flames /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The people that ride with him ride great.

I like Paul Valliere. It goes with my "I will not be sorry for anything I've said" pledge! lol... Let me go strap on my unapproved helmet and get out of this topic before it's too late /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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LMH
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:37 PM
Ain't touching this with a ten foot pole-or prod

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

Dementia 13
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:38 PM
oh yes and we all know how important winning is.

Personally, I would never ride with him but to be fair, he really did write some excellent articles in Practical Horseman a few years back. I'm sure he is an excellent trainer but I would have a problem just because of the past ethics issues.

buryinghill1
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:42 PM
Probably one of the best of all time - in the equitation ring certainly.

But, I wouldn't give him the time of day. Certainly wouldn't send one of my kids to him for a clinic.

I watched poor Rosseau Plattiere dragged up the driveway in Sugarbush for his autopsy. I will never forget.

Others involved in horse-killing-for-insurance moved on to other businesses. Paul V remains.

rockstarr
Oct. 23, 2002, 12:47 PM
To anyone who ever wonders why people (myself included) remain so vehement about this topic ... this kind of question is why.

Coreene
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:02 PM
This would be one of them.

Marcella
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:09 PM
thanks for the quick replies! I am very familiar with lots involved with the insurance killings, actually showed side-by-side with them (and still do).

I also talked with my friend and she did have the clinic with him. She said it was the best clinic she ever did and would definitley ride with him again, but that was before I told her about some of these posts, so now maybe her opinion is swayed a little.

TS Clique*Chestnut TB Jumper Clique*GPA Clique*Do It Yourself Clique

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:10 PM
Well, I think that that is an easy question to answer:

Back in the 1990's (1992? 1994?), Paul's clients had a horse that was not going to be as much of a money-maker as was anticipated, and Paul needed to get them out of the horse (e.g. get the insurance money).

My recollection is that Paul Valliere had the horse killed by Tommy Burns (aka "Tim Ray" aka "Sandman" (his nickname for putting horses to sleep)). Moreover, media reports from back then intimated that Tim Ray also was friends with Barney Ward. I cannot confirm that, however. Does anyone know if Tim/Tommy was involved in Barney Ward's insurance hits?

Anyway, my recollection (and that of a good friend of mine) is that it Tommy killed the horse or at least set it up, and then Tommy fingered Paul, and Paul immediately turned State's evidence to save his sorry rump from a long time in the hooscow.

FYI: The horse was electrocuted. Why Paul would have thought it was least painful for the animal to be electrocuted is beyond me. I suspect if Paul had a shred of humanity (notwithstanding the fact that he was about to have a horse killed), he would have ordered it done with a lethal injection of tranquilizer, which, I am led to believe, is less painful than electrocution.

Would I take a clinic with Paul? Uhm, I'd have to think hard about that.

Zoef
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:14 PM
Super enhanced flame retardant suit on.

Okay now. I rode with him in the equitation as a junior and in my early years doing jumpers (but no longer ride with him) and can tell you first hand what a great trainer he was (and is). His drilling in the equitation all those years is what now allows me to hop on a horse on weekends and show, when I do not even get the chance to practice much since I work long hours to afford it now and keep my horse 5 hours away from my home.

I enjoyed riding with him because he so totally loves what he does and is so excited when one of his kids or horses wins (in a positive way) that it makes you really want to perform for him. Sort of like Bella Karoli (sp?). He did not favor his clients with money but treated everyone with or without talent equally and worthy of help - as long as they tried (I know since I was not the most talented nor did my family spend a lot of money).

I continued to ride with him for a while after the issues surfaced and was constantly asked why I did not leave. Obviously I do not condone what he did. My response was, and continues to be that he made a mistake and he knows it. He was human and made a mistake and has paid and continues to pay for it. He treated my horses extremely well and showed a much greater concern for their well-being than other trainers that I have since ridden with who publicly have squeaky clean reputations. In my opinion he is at heart a good man. There are a number of other professionals out there that I cannot say that about.

TrakHack
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:15 PM
If I remember from "Hotblood" correctly, the way they electrocuted the horses mimicked (sp?) colic, which is something the insurance would pay out on.

War Admiral
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:19 PM
....And into whose after that?? For what purpose??You gotta wonder.

Vote w/ your feet. Take a clinic from a clinician w/ a better reputation.

Member: TB Clique, Georgia Clique, Rust TS Clique, Willem FC, DIY Clique, Ebayers Anonymous Clique, Reads Forums At Work Clique, Lame/Sick/Injured Horse Clique

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sister:
If I remember from "Hotblood" correctly, the way they electrocuted the horses mimicked (sp?) colic, which is something the insurance would pay out on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Sister! So in addition to being a great trainer /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, Paul Valliere is a smart man.

Note to self: If I am ever going to kill Buster for insurance money, make it look like colic.

Oh, Sister, do you know, did Tommy Burns (aka Tim Ray aka Sandman (how cute!)) actually DO the electrocution or did he just set it up? My recollection is that he was charged with or pled to conspiracy, but I could be wrong.

poltroon
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:32 PM
The reason that it is "conspiracy" and not, say "horse killing" is that killing a horse, however awful, is not against the law. Killing a horse and then pretending it was an accident so you can defraud your insurance company is against the law.

Seven
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:32 PM
I would never knowingly give my money to someone with such serious ethical issues. I don't care if he's the second coming of horsemanship and training; I'd never pay him for anything.

I'm with Lizviola -- vote with your feet.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
The reason that it is "conspiracy" and not, say "horse killing" is that killing a horse, however awful, is not against the law. Killing a horse and then pretending it was an accident so you can defraud your insurance company is against the law.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks poltroon. I didn't wonder about that part, however - I just wondered why he was charged with conspiracy as opposed to actual fraud. Oh, actually, in typing this, it becomes clear. . . . He likely had nothing to do with filing the insurance documents.

Flash44
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:41 PM
If someone is a great trainer, go ride with him. Oh, and I think there are a few out of work CEOs looking to run companies. I'm sure they are really good at their jobs despite one or two minor accounting errors in the past.

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
The people that ride with him ride great.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quick question: Can you really RIDE with him at a show? That is to say, he's not allowed to set foot on an AHSA/USAEq show property, right?

So given that Paul can't come onto the property, does he have an assistant who actually goes to the ring and watches the round?

HSM
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
If someone is a great trainer, go ride with him. Oh, and I think there are a few out of work CEOs looking to run companies. I'm sure they are really good at their jobs despite one or two minor accounting errors in the past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Flash - way to make a point.

Dear lord I cannot BELIEVE that we have to go through this again so soon. Very scary.

Medievalist
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:

Dear lord I cannot BELIEVE that we have to go through this again so soon. Very scary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know. It's been what, 3 days? With a topic like this and the 15 helmet topics on the front page, this BB just doesn't get much happier /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Flash44
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
If someone is a great trainer, go ride with him. Oh, and I think there are a few out of work CEOs looking to run companies. I'm sure they are really good at their jobs despite one or two minor accounting errors in the past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Flash - way to make a point.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoops, I forgot. You may have to bail some of them out of jail.

Zoef
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:50 PM
I hate to break the news to some of you, but TONS of trainers have serious ethical issues. The questions is where each individual draws the line.

So where do you draw the line? Someone who cheats on his wife okay? What about beats his wife? His son? What about someone who uses wire on the tops of jumps to sharpen a horse? Or perhaps uses electric spurs that zap a horse when applied? Or maybe cheats by putting things in a horse's hind boots? What about a person who spurs and beats a horse so hard that it draws blood? For those of you who show in the A circuit, you will know that each of these examples references well known GP riders.

Or maybe someone who starves and dehydrates a horse so that it will be quiet for the hunter ring? Or longes a horse and shows it when lame by doping it up? I draw the line with my wellfare and that of my horse. I have left places where I thought the tuning they wanted to do to my horse was cruel. So vote with your feet if you want but then you ought to be boycotting the clinics of a whole lots of BNTs.

rockstarr
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:51 PM
For those of you who are exasperated by this topic resurfacing, you guys don't HAVE to "go through" this again. I'm sure it's really taxing to oh, I don't know, not open the thread or something. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TrakHack
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:53 PM
Definitely check out "Hotblood" by Ken Englade. Good book that gives all the gory details (including exactly how the electrocution was set up). I got the impression that Tommy Burns himself carried out at least some of the killings.

Seven
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
So vote with your feet if you want but then you ought to be boycotting the clinics of a whole lots of BNTs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And whatever gave you the impression that I don't already do that?

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

Medievalist
Oct. 23, 2002, 01:55 PM
It's ok, Zoef. I'm with you 100%. He was really good to me.

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Check out my barn's site:
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b328
Oct. 23, 2002, 02:07 PM
I think the difference between this individual and the other trainers Zoef references are that the acts committed here are a matter of public record. Many people are aware of it and have a way to check and see that it truly happened. If I saw the things Zoef described or had them backed up with proof (rather than word of mouth), I wouldn't support those trainers either. To my knowledge, no trainer I have ridden with has done anything cruel to a horse. If I had proof that my trainer did commit an act of cruelty, I would change trainers. Sometimes people have to deal with the consequences of their actions. I think this act took too much planning and coordination to be a mistake.

buryinghill1
Oct. 23, 2002, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
I hate to break the news to some of you, but TONS of trainers have serious ethical issues. The questions is where each individual draws the line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ethical issues? We're talking murder. That's where I draw the line.

Every BNT I know cheats in some way, or some are abusive. In every discipline. I've seen it all. But few have actually killed a horse. And none killed for money. (Actually the less-educated trainer can be the most dangerous!).

Zoef, I know you'll defend him forever. He was very good to you (and to Zoef! what a great horse!)... Yes he's still making zillions off the horse industry (and not setting foot on the show grounds)... He was and still is very good at what he does. Interesting to see which of the BigEq medalists have been lessoning with him lately!

Ijumphi, I don't know if you meant to start the fire again, but you sure did. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Oct. 23, 2002, 02:20 PM
Tom Burns did the actual killing of horses. He was well-known around the circuit for this service.

He was VERY close with Barney Ward (in fact, Ward was somewhat of a father figure to him), and Barney would recommend his services to other people. (George Lindemann Jr., for example.)

Tommy was eventually caught (by Chicago investigators looking into the Helen Brach murder mystery... she was defrauded, and probably killed, by Richard Bailey, who was a con artist/horse dealer, and I think had some association with Ward et al, but I don't remember quite how) and ratted out the various big name people who he killed horses for. I believe Paul Valliere was one of those, but don't remember the details of the horse/situation.

In his defense, Paul eventually agreed to help the investigators and wore a wire (I think), helping them catch/prosecute other evil-doers.

Anyway... his history is what it is. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion about it, and to act in accordance with that opinion.

You all are welcome to make the information available here, so that people can make informed decisions. But let's not harrass them for those decisions please.

As others have mentioned, read Hot Blood or the multitude of COTH articles (of which I have copies /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) if you want to know more about these people.

findeight
Oct. 23, 2002, 02:49 PM
Thank you Erin.

Act like a consumer when you select a teacher/trainer/agent and research their backgrounds as you would a car dealer. What you will accept remains up to you, it is your money and your horse.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Coreene
Oct. 23, 2002, 02:51 PM
The Chronicle of the Horse, September 29, 1995

Chicago Jury Believes Burns, Convicts Lindemann of Fraud

After listening to two weeks of testimony from a dozen witnesses and digesting armloads of evidence, 11 women and one man made a clear decision on Sept. 21 about whom they believed in the long-awaited insurance fraud trial.

They could have chosen Tommy Burns, an admitted horse killer, thief and con man with a ninth-grade education who described himself as "a piece of garbage" and repeatedly lied to investigators. Or they could have chosen George Lindemann Jr., an Ivy League graduate, heir to a fortune, and international show jumper and dressage rider trying to win a spot on the 1996 Olympic team.

They believed Burns. And their verdict, announced in Chicago's Dirksen Federal Building, made Lindemann and his stable manager, Marion Hulick, convicted felons.

The jury didn't make their decision lightly. They deliberated for eight hours before declaring both Lindemann and Hulick guilty on three counts of wire fraud. The charges were related to Burns' electrocution of Lindemann's Charisma to make a $250,000 insurance claim in December 1990.

When the verdict was read, Lindemann winced, Hulick remained motionless, and several of their family and friends quietly burst into tears.

Neither Lindemann, Hulick nor their lawyers would comment as they left the Chicago courtroom, except to say they plan to appeal.

Lindemann and Hulick are scheduled to be sentenced on Dec. 18 in Chicago. Each now faces a maximum sentence of 15 years in prison and $750,000 in fines.

Surprise Strategy

The jury began deliberating on the afternoon of Sept. 19, a day earlier than expected. Although the defense lawyers had planned to call Lindemann, his sister Sloan and Hulick to testify, they altered their strategy and called no witnesses. Instead, both sides began their closing arguments on Monday, Sept. 18.

"Was Charisma worth more dead than alive?" Assistant U.S. Attorney Susan Cox asked at the start of her summation. "These people thought so," she said, pointing to Lindemann and Hulick.

"They were using a service, a service provided by their friend and neighbor, Barney Ward" to solve the problem of an expensive horse not fulfilling expectations, said Cox.

Ward, a horse dealer and international show jumper, goes on trial next for arranging three other insurance-fraud deaths. He was allegedly the middleman in arranging Charisma's death.

Cox outlined the three wire fraud charges to the jury: a telephone call from Ward to Burns; a return call from Burns to Ward; and a call from Burns to a travel agent to arrange his trip to New York. Lindemann and Hulick weren't charged with actually making calls to advance the scheme, but causing them to happen.

Cox then attempted to solidify Burns' credibility in light of subsequent conflicting testimony. "Nobody was more surprised than these investigators" to learn about Burns' string of horse killings, Cox said.

She said that after investigators watched Burns kill Donna Brown's Streetwise in February 1991, federal agents met him in his Florida jail cell to ask him what he knew about the murder of Helen Vorhees Brach. Brach, a middle-aged Chicago heiress, disappeared in 1977, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Steven Miller had been investigating the unsolved murder ever since.

Horse dealer Richard Bailey was indicted with Lindemann and Ward last summer and has since been convicted of arranging Brach's murder. She was one of several wealthy, lonely women he swindled by selling them horses at inflated prices. Brach's body has never been found, however.

Cox said that Burns didn't mention Charisma initially because they were asking about the Brach murder. The defense claimed Burns thought of implicating Lindemann to reduce his penalty. But Cox said Burns mentioned Charisma and Lindemann as soon as he told investigators about the other 14 horses he'd killed. "If he's telling the truth about fourteen horse killings, why would he lie about the fifteenth?" Cox asked.

But there was a gap in Burns' confession--the role of Ward, a father figure Burns loved and feared, Cox said. Burns concealed Ward's role until the evidence of his involvement was overwhelming. Until then, Burns testified that he purposely compromised his credibility by telling conflicting stories while he planned to jump bail and escape to Costa Rica.

"What was his motive to lie to the government? Barney Ward. Barney Ward, who bailed him out of jail and whose first question was, 'Did you give up George Lindemann?' " said Cox. "He was listening to Barney Ward a lot more at that time in his life than he was listening to the government."

Cox urged the jury to consider Burns' whole testimony, to consider the corroboration other witnesses provided.

Cox maintained that the evidence and testimony proved that on Dec. 15, 1990, the day Charisma died, "Tommy Burns was a stone's throw from Cellular Farm."

Hulick's lawyer, Judd Burstein, maintained in his closing argument that the government hadn't proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. He questioned the lack of autopsy results or testimony from a veterinarian to determine if Charisma had been electrocuted. Burstein said the prosecution hadn't even proven that Charisma was Lindemann's horse.

Although the insurance check was payable to Cellular Farm (20 percent of which is owned by Lindemann and 80 percent by his father, George Lindemann Sr.), the money was actually Sloan's, maintained Burstein.

Burstein said Lindemann had no motive. "Cellular Farms does not equal George Lindemann Jr. This is a family hobby. It loses money to the tune of a million dollars a year. Do you think they cared about this $250,000?" said Burstein.

Burstein carefully noted the discrepancies between Burns' testimony and that of several other witnesses, although he also attacked the credibility of prosecution witnesses Harlow Arlie and Anne Madej. Burstein told the jury that the prosecution wanted them to ignore these discrepancies.

"That's like having a bowl of stew in front of you and each of those lies is a rotten piece of meat. If you do what the government asks you to do, you'd pick out the rotten pieces," Burstein said. "That's not what you do. You throw out the entire stew."

Jay Goldberg, Lindemann's lawyer, maintained in his summation that Charisma was a champion show hunter, not the disappointment the prosecution described. "[Lindemann] would have to be crazy to kill a prize-winning horse with enormous potential," Goldberg said. "He's a kindly person, has no temper, and they never ever saw him mistreat a horse. Everybody said that."

Playing to the Jury

The defense tried to take advantage of the Chicago-area jury's lack of knowledge about horses. Burstein argued that Charisma had health problems in the days before his death, based on testimony that a veterinarian had drawn blood from the horse three days before it was due to go to Florida. In his rebuttal, Miller informed the jury that the blood sample was for a Coggins test.
Both defense attorneys deftly worked on the jury's emotions. Burstein ended his summation with a moving speech about the American justice system and its presumption of innocence.

In what Miller later described as an "Academy Award-winning performance," Goldberg told the 12 jurors and two alternates that they were selected from a pool of 45 because of their ability to meet the challenge of jury duty.

In his final rebuttal, Miller immediately addressed the defense's allegations that Lindemann's wealth made him a prosecution target. "It was the defense that said there is no motive for a rich person to commit a crime," said Miller. "What they ignore is the difference between need and greed."

When Lindemann graduated from Brown University (R.I.), Miller told the jury, he was given the keys to Cellular Farm and told to "make it work."

"Don't you think that he might be comparing himself to his father, and he may be concerned that his first venture as an adult was losing money?" Miller asked. "He may be a very talented rider, but don't you think that the fact that he's doing this on the most expensive horses in the world helps a little bit?"

Charisma's performance declined, however, after Lindemann purchased him in November 1989. "All of the evidence implies that George Lindemann was very unhappy with this horse," Miller said.

Miller attempted to re-establish the credibility of Burns and the other witnesses. "Tommy Burns was in demand because no one ever found out the horses were electrocuted," Miller said to explain why no veterinarians testified. He said the other 14 killings were only discovered because Burns confessed to them.

Miller explained that Burns had every incentive to tell the truth, because he could be prosecuted for every crime he admitted if he nullified his plea by lying.

The jury believed the prosecution's version of the conflicting testimony.

At a post-trial press conference, James Burns, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, commended Miller, Cox, and Special Agents Peter Cullen and Kevin Deery for convicting 22 of the 23 people indicted last July. (The only one who hasn't been convicted or pleaded guilty is Ward.) Burns said that a second round of equestrian indictments will be announced in the next 90 days.

"[Lindemann] was the most prominent of the defendants," Miller said. "We hope the message has already been heard loudly and clearly [in the equestrian industry]. These people cannot hide behind hired thugs and then argue to a jury that they can't be believed because they're riff-raff."

Ward's trial date is expected to be set sometime in the near future. Veterinarian Ross Hugi of Mundelein, Ill., who pleaded guilty to assisting Bailey in defrauding wealthy women, will be sentenced in Chicago on Oct. 3.

Expected to play an important role in the Ward case is unlikely hero Tommy Burns. "I feel like I was acquitted," Burns told the Chicago Tribune the day after the verdict was announced. "I wasn't lying about nothing. They didn't hire me because I was a debutante."

Burns told the Tribune that he thought admitting his life of crime partially diffused the defense's cross-examination. "[They] had a book about the size of 'War and Peace' filled with everything I had done wrong," Burns said. "I've been a bum most of my life. I feel like I finally did the right thing. I think I've done some good for the whole horse industry."

chrissy mackris
Oct. 23, 2002, 03:01 PM
horseback riding is supposed to be FUN- not scandalous...i would never EVER lower myself to train with this man, no matter how much my riding and/or winning might improve

*Tipperary*
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AIM:clm91284

chrissy mackris
Oct. 23, 2002, 03:23 PM
Burns moved slowly so as not to spook Charisma, a strategy more cautionary than necessary. Show horses are accustomed to strangers being about: stablehands, grooms, veterinarians, trainers, riders, even visitors, move through barns in a steady stream at all kinds of weird hours. After a few months of that, horses learn to accept an alien presence with equanimity. This was especially true of Charisma, who was remarkably good-natured and gregarious, openly welcoming anyone who approached him.

Still, Burns moved slowly and deliberately, carefully uncoiling his "rig," a specially adapted, heavy duty electrical extension cord with alligator clips at the end where the female plug normally would have been. Holding the penlight in his teeth so his hands would be free, Burns gently stroked Charisma's forehead, whispering softly. Charisma bobbed his head and rolled a large friendly brown eye in Burns's direction, seemingly happy with the unexpected attention. Still talking quietly to the gelding, Burns attached one of the clips from his rig to Charisma's ear.

Backing slowly away, he moved to the horse's hindquarters and delicately lifted his tail. Inured by countless veterinary examinations, Charisma stood patiently when Burns attached the other clip to the flesh around his anus.

Giving Charisma a final pat, Burns hustled out of the stall and made his way quickly to a nearby brass pole where he knew from his afternoon visit there was an electrical outlet. Without hesitation, he rammed the male end of the cord into the receptacle. As he had come to learn through vast prior experience, the result was immediate; Charisma dropped as if struck by lightning. Except for the heavy thump when the high-priced animal hit the floor, there was no sound at all, not even a grunt.

One of the major advantages of electrocution, which was Burns's favorite method of execution, one he had deviated from only once and that had been six years before when he used a drug to incite a heart attack in a horse named Town Gossip, was that it was almost always undectable. Unless the killer was careless and misattached the alligator clips so they left burn marks, electrocution was undiscernible even with the most thorough autopsy. The only way to tell for sure if a horse had been deliberately killed by electrocution was for the killer or the person who hired him to confess.

Shrugging in his heavy jacket, Burns re-entered the stall, carefully stepping over the steaming pile of manure that Charisma had evacuated in death, and collected his rig. Another thing he liked about electrocution was that he was convinced it was painless. He had heard of other horse hit-men who used different methods. Fire was popular with some killers; ping-pong balls shoved up the nostrils or a plastic bag secured around the head were favored by others. But to Burns, electrocution seemed the most humane and that was important to his self-image. Burns thought of himself as a compassionate killer.

*Tipperary*
AOL:zulu59
AIM:clm91284

Zoef
Oct. 23, 2002, 03:25 PM
Even if we disagree on ethical lines, thanks on behalf of Zoef for the horsie complement! He was always so fond of praise that I am sure he is kicking up his heels in his retirement paddock in pride. He sure was the horse of a lifetime.

Anne
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:10 PM
No tranq OD because it tests if there is a necropsy.

And yes, Paul is barred from the actual show grounds. I know of one person who used to be (or perhaps still is) his "front man" at the shows.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

BenRidin
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:12 PM
I believe he has his wife coach at the shows.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally Posted By chrissy mackris horseback riding is supposed to be FUN- not scandalous...i would never EVER lower myself to train with this man, no matter how much my riding and/or winning might improve
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lower yourself to training with him?? whoaaa.. all you are doing is getting lessons on how to be a better/more effective rider - not asking for a lesson on morals.
You don't even know this man personally how can you talk about him like he is the scum of the earth?? Yes I agree what he did was horrible and I would never ever even think about supporting someone's choice in doin what he did but that still doesn't make me think any less of his training abilities. As many other have said - he is a great trainer, all his kids ride well and his horses go great. Of course if he was that horrible he would not have as many people vouching for him as he does now. Go ahead and disagree with me but I still don't want to hear people talking trash about someone they don't even know.. (Plus - if you feel so strongly about this I'd really like to see you say what you are saying to his face.. you may feel so strongly posting to strangers that you probably will never see but I doubt you would be so courageous to his face) .. and please stop talking about someone behind their back and then say in the same sentence that they would never be so low as them....

~BenRidin

roxy527
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:18 PM
The most ridiculous part about that is that he has a permanent barn in Grand Prix Village in Wellington that is as close to the showgrounds as can be w/out being on the grounds. He can hear every announcement on the loudspeakers!

Despite his notoriety he is still the man you go to during WEF if you want to sell your horse, he has numerous contacts, all w/ big $$$.

Last but not least, I got a big kick out of an ad he placed in Sidelines last year saying that 50% of monies he received from training horses & giving lessons were going to a 9/11 animal relief fund (b/c he is such a humanitarian)

PosyEqMedal
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:20 PM
It depends on your morals.

If you go you'll learn alot and have a great lesson with someone who really knows what he's doing and has the show record to prove so.

If you don't go you won't be supporting someone with "ethical issues".

I'm sure he want's to get past this point is his life, but just consider everything in this. It's probably worth your time.

Jaysee
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:34 PM
I am amazed that this is STILL a huge bone of contention around here. How about the current GP rider who's father was involved? A lot of BBers here seem to think that he walks on water when in all actuality, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. (pulling on the flame proof suit at warp speed) /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And go read Flash44's posts. this is an industry, and there are people in it doing illegal things EVERY DAY. Funny how you never hear the stories about a BNT's young horse dying of heat exhaustion in KY because BNT rode the living sh*t out of it, with reckless abandon (I don't think the poor horse "got it"). I don't see a whole lot of difference. There are plenty of other stories out there.....

Back to the topic: Go ride with Paul, you will learn a lot from him. Try not to be negatively influenced too terribly much from what you have read here.

[This message was edited by Jaysee on Oct. 23, 2002 at 07:53 PM.]

Fetlocks
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:47 PM
BenRidin -- I believe chrissy m. meant that she'd be "lowering yourself" because if you support (i.e., pay money to) someone who's ethics you can't agree with, then what does that say about you??? What's that old saying...sleep with snakes...something like that...to me it's the same thing.

And, yeah...I can't speak for *everyone* but in my case, anytime anyone wants to arrange a face to face between Paul V. and me, I'd be happy to say the same sentiments directly to his face. The crimes he and others commited are beyond any sense of decency and he has no business continuing *any* involvement with horses. As a junior, I greatly admired and respected him but I am nothing but disgusted with the fact that he still has contact with any animal.

Flash44
Oct. 23, 2002, 04:52 PM
Hey, once someone gets out of jail, they're cured, right?

Finzean
Oct. 23, 2002, 05:36 PM
Can I be the president of your fan club? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

____________________________

What're you doin' on the ground? I thought you said you could ride?!

Well, I was ridin' when I fell off!!!

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:05 PM
Does Paul now only train eq. people? Back in the day, he was an H/J guy. . . .

HUS gurl
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:15 PM
the reason he had them killed that way was for the autopsy... that way, it would show that the horse died from a heart attack or something...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

sad but true !!!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

he is banned in canada ! that is why he's now in the states...

HSM
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstarr:
For those of you who are exasperated by this topic resurfacing, you guys don't HAVE to "go through" this again. I'm sure it's really taxing to oh, I don't know, not open the thread or something. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, I am not "exasperated" that this thread has resurfaced, though that may have been how my comment sounded.

I am more like AMAZED that there can once again be so many people defending this man.

HSM
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by finzean:
Flash!

Can I be the president of your fan club? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wanna be vice president!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dementia 13
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:26 PM
Oh well, it is a personal decision I guess. I think people should be educated consumers though.

I would definitely want to know if someone I was planning to have train me had been convicted of something as serious as insurance fraud.

HSM
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:28 PM
from The Equestrian Times:

The Equestrian Times (http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm)


"(New York, NY - June 1997)This is official notice of the following action taken by the Hearing Committee of the American Horse Shows Association following a meeting held on March 12, 1996, in the association's New York City offices:

MR. PAUL VALLIERE, of North Smithfield, RI violated Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 702(a), (d), and (f) of this association, in that he was convicted of having participated in a plan or conspiracy to commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse and the conduct underlying his conviction is deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the Association. In considering an appropriate penalty for the violation by MR. VALLIERE, the committee members weighed in his favor that he had cooperated with the government; however, the panel also took into consideration that he hired a killer for the horse Roseau Platiere, owned by him, which was electrocuted as part of a scheme to defraud an insurance company, and that the evidence presented at the hearing established that death by electrocution causes pain to the horse. For his violation of the rules as charged, the committee determined pursuant to the provisions of Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 703.1 (b), (c) and (f), that effective immediately and until further notice, MR. VALLIERE is hereby expelled from membership in the AHSA and denied all the privileges of membership including the ability to hold or exercise office in the association, attend or participate in association meetings, hold license(s) as an AHSA or FEI official, compete in international competitions or receive AHSA automatic insurance coverages or participate in AHSA group insurance programs and is found not in good standing and he and all horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his are found not in good standing and are suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions and he is excluded from all competition grounds during Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant, or spectator. The panel members also directed that the Hearing Committee retains jurisdiction over this matter, and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. "

Court@HJ-OH
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:36 PM
As much as I hate to fuel the fire! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Isn't his suspension up for review soon? Does anyone know anything about this?

**Courtney**
"Court, you are THE QUEEN OF LEAN!" My trainer!

"I may not agree with what someone has to say, but I will die for their right to say it" every American

chrissy mackris
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenRidin:
I believe he has his wife coach at the shows.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> _Originally Posted By chrissy mackris_ horseback riding is supposed to be FUN- not scandalous...i would never EVER lower myself to train with this man, no matter how much my riding and/or winning might improve
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> _Lower yourself_ to training with him?? whoaaa.. all you are doing is getting lessons on how to be a better/more effective rider - not asking for a lesson on morals.
You don't even know this man personally how can you talk about him like he is the scum of the earth?? Yes I agree what he did was horrible and I would never ever even think about supporting someone's choice in doin what he did but that still doesn't make me think any less of his training abilities. As many other have said - he is a great trainer, all his kids ride well and his horses go great. Of course if he was that horrible he would not have as many people vouching for him as he does now. Go ahead and disagree with me but I still don't want to hear people talking trash about someone they don't even know.. (Plus - if you feel so strongly about this I'd really like to see you say what you are saying to his face.. you may feel so strongly posting to strangers that you probably will never see but I doubt you would be so courageous to his face) .. and please stop talking about someone behind their back and then say in the same sentence that they would never be so low as them....

~BenRidin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know i wasn't saying that by training with him you would have to agree with his reasoning, i never said he was a bad trainer- he could be the best trainer in the world, i would just never train with himbecause that is supporting him . i would much rather find a trainer who DOESN'T kill horses.
and i dont think you can compare me being "low" and talking behind someone's back to what he did. i can voice my opinion, and yes you're right, i dont know him, and i never said said anything about his training ability or his personalty because i dont know him, but if i saw him i would have absolutly no problem saying this to his face. one of the main reasons i feel so strongly about this is because i worked with PMU and slaughter house foals...and i know what it's like to see horses killed, and i really dont approve of it. i was not talking trash- i was talking the truth- and i was just voicing my opinion, not trying to offend anyone. ok?

*Tipperary*
AOL:zulu59
AIM:clm91284

chrissy mackris
Oct. 23, 2002, 06:55 PM
thank you BLOSSOM- i didnt read your post until i had already posted mine, but you summed up what i had to say really well!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*Tipperary*
AOL:zulu59
AIM:clm91284

Marcella
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:05 PM
I was right in asking here-learned everything about this man! Sorry for bringing this up if it upset some-I had no idea he was involved with this stuff in the first place.

Anyways, back to the topic, he really helped my friend out with her young horse. They have problems with gymnastics from a bad accident in the beginning of both of their training and have had problems with combinations in jumper classes because of this. After the clinic, they seem to be cured!

TS Clique*Chestnut TB Jumper Clique*GPA Clique*Do It Yourself Clique

Zoef
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:15 PM
Jaysee - your flame suit comment had me ROTFL. Being at work at this hour results in strange things tickling my funny bone.

Paul's wife does not train at shows. She is an amateur and rides in the hunters and jumpers. A former student of his trains both at home and the shows. He has a number of adult riders that do both adult hunters/adult jumpers/seniors.

rockstarr
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:23 PM
HSM, I did (mis)-read your previous post as exasperation and it chafes me so much when people pull the old, "Oh, we're back on THIS again?"

Sorry for the misinterpretation! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Becca
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
I hate to break the news to some of you, but TONS of trainers have serious ethical issues. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. And Many of us choose not to train with those. ESPECIALLY not those whom are acknowledged as having acted upon those ethical issues. I respect EVERYONE'S choice to train with whomever they desire, to show under whomever they desire, etc. But when someone solicits advice and opinions on an individual, especially prior to training with them, it is imperative that they understand the components of that decision, and that those who can contribute make that decision as informed as possible.

People have every right to rehash topics as frequently as they please, so long as it is done with integrity and honesty and factual statements. Just as people have every right not to read the topic for the 14th time. Its all in our CHOICES.

Becca
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:41 PM
And PS: For the record, I wouldn't marry a man who cheated on his wife, either. Especially if he cheated on her with me. Why wouldn't I be next? . . . Why wouldn't my horse be next?

Zoef
Oct. 23, 2002, 07:53 PM
Appreciate the point on the wife (and I agree) but I would train with someone who cheated on his wife (around the A circuit there would be almost no one left if you excluded this category). I don't approve but as long as I can accomplish my goals and it does not personally harm me then I will take that evil.

Your logic does not hold on the horse. Is someone going to kill my horse and then be able to collect the insurance? Does not work. Could someone treat my horse badly? Yes. But many people do this who did not get caught in the scandal and some people who got caught in the scandal otherwise treat horses well.

Every one can choose their poison just as long as they know the truth and have their facts straight. I personally did not know how much horrible stuff goes on out there until I left PV and saw what other trainers did. Horrifying.

SBT
Oct. 23, 2002, 08:04 PM
...I'm sure there are other trainers out there who can teach me the same things he can...trainers who have NOT killed horses.

I don't understand why we should pity this man, much less automatically disregard what he did, on the grounds that he "made a mistake." Give me a break. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What he MADE was a CHOICE...a conscious choice to have horses killed. The fact that he was ever capable of making this choice is enough to make me never want to be in the same time zone as he is. Likewise, I refuse to have dealings with ANY trainer who has such serious ethical issues.

We all have to do whatever we need to do in order to sleep at night. For me, that means no giving of money to known horse killers/abusers.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull." -Bart Simpson

Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron

farfel
Oct. 23, 2002, 09:35 PM
I am 100% for bringing up this topic as often as possible. Every day/month/year, there are countless "newbies" to the horse show world who have no idea what Paul Valliere et al were involved in. The "newbies" should be educated.

Not talking about it = sweeping it under the rug. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Why do we continue to debate the issue of Paul Valliere, even though there are many other crooked/abusive trainers out there? Because Valliere's behaviour is a matter of public record - it has been proven in court. We can't publicly name others whom we feel should be boycotted, because that would be slander. On a public forum, spreading the news about Valliere is the best we can do.

I cannot condemn the people who choose to support Valliere in spite of his crimes, but they will have to live with their respective consciences. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Becca
Oct. 24, 2002, 12:01 AM
I suppose it is indeed a matter of opinion and preference. You see, I would, and ALWAYS will do everything in my power to protect my horses. I love them as they love me, and it is my responsibility, my obligation and my heartfelt need to do whatever I can in return. Despite if the individual who may potentially harm them will be caught, my horse will still have suffered.

Similarly, it is a matter of personal beliefs and goals and how you place those in your priorities. Personally, the day that winning becomes so much to me that it overrides my morality and beliefs, to the point that it may jeopardize my horses’ lives, I will stop. I hope to god it never comes to that point. And should my goals ever lead me to the point of blindness, to the point where my goals lead me to be concerned only about my personal harm, not the harm to those I love, or those loved by those around me. Or anyone, I suppose.

And indeed, horrible stuff does go on out there. I’ve seen it too. I, too, have been disgusted by it. And I have made the conscious choice to not support it, and I will continue to support it. Be it that my personal actions may not have any effect, eventually, if enough people make the conscious choice to support their conscience with their actions, then something just may change, and we should all be so fortunate as to witness that change.

(And since when does cheating on your wife (agreeably a bad and immoral action!) equate murdering, conspiring to murder (for indeed, plotting the murder is just as bad as “pulling the trigger”)? I am in a quandary over this one . . .)

And please don’t take offense to my slightly offensive response . . . I truly do respect your right to make your own choices, but I hesitate at the reasoning. It is not your personal choices (nor anyone's. It was not my intent to make this personal, though it has evolved slightly. . . ) I object to, but the ideals behind them.

VTrider
Oct. 24, 2002, 05:19 AM
Some of y'all have no life.

ccoronios
Oct. 24, 2002, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. " <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> be the reason for THIS <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>an ad he placed in Sidelines last year saying that 50% of monies he received from training horses & giving lessons were going to a 9/11 animal relief fund <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>??

How does someone with no regard for life get rehabilitated?

www.ayliprod.com (http://www.ayliprod.com)
Equine Video and Still Photography in the Northeast

buryinghill1
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:01 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by yd II on Oct. 24, 2002 at 12:01 PM.]

MKM
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Some of y'all have no life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i'm probably one of them. but still, yet another classic VTRider quote. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif hehee

Robby Johnson
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:06 AM
and the excerpt that was posted is exactly why.

It just makes me sick to my stomach.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Becca
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
Some of y'all have no life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL- I think I relinquish responsibility for anything I say when I come home at 3:00 int he morning and decide to go online . . . No girl can do it all /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

hobson
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:16 AM
Why do we mince words so? "Ethical issues" sounds so...polite and unimportant, like being not-quite-an-amateur in the amateur classes, or fudging a bit on the tax returns. Paul V has "issues" with CORRUPTION and FRAUD. Can we just call it what it is?

Jumpin'Fool
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:34 AM
...and of course I am continually surprised by the people who think he made 'just one mistake.' Please!! Doesn't anyone remember the big ad in the Chronicle from one of those 'loyal customers' for THREE horses that had all passed away within a relatively short time? One of them was found in his stall with a broken ankle, for heavens sake! It was one of those things everyone 'knew'. Barn fires, trailer accidents...

Many people were sure the reason he flipped was because he got the word from the long time customer not to let the Feds delve too deeply into the past. I'd be way more afraid of the customer, too!

caffeinated
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:50 AM
I hadn't read any of these threads before and would have had no idea who he was otherwise (not a "big" show person here).

But I would never give my money to someone who has done that... I just can't fathom being able to think it is "ok". I'll stick to no trainer or unknown trainers if that was my only other choice.

As good as he may be at training horses and riders, I'd want to train with someone who views horses as half the team, willing partners, friends, and intelligent creatures instead of "investments" and "commodities"

I do believe, however, that electrocution is not one of the worst ways to go- the stories of horses' legs being broken with metal pipes or suffocated to death or burned to death are far more grotesque...

**and people say gov't employees are useless... HA!**

Portia
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:02 AM
Becca is my hero. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Offense MEANT!" Armand Leone, Jr. to David O'Connor and Linda Allen, Sept. 25, 2002

Janet
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:07 AM
In one post ydII said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Certainly wouldn't send one of my kids to him for a clinic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then she said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nothing wrong with going to the clinics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just My Style
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:13 AM
I don't want to ad more fuel to the fire, but in my opinion, the only difference between Paul Valliere and a lot of other trainers is that he got caught. There are a lot of "crooked" trainers out there. You need to be careful who you train with and make decisions based on what is best for you.

Tobi
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:42 AM
I am right there with you Robby, that excerpt made me sick!!

it reminded me of a situaion my mom went through about 10+ years ago. a client of hers had a mare that was severly lame and over 20 years old. the vets had tried everything to make her comfortable, but could not. this horse was no high priced show horse, but an average mare whose primary jobs in life had been to give lessons and fox hunt. I remember how my mom agonized with this client over having to put the mare down. they just couldn't come up with a solution with the vet to make the mare feel comfortable. in the end she was put down.

given the deliberations my mom went through, i can't believe PV made his lightly. he actually thought that this was the 'right' thing to do to a healthy happy animal. what he did was absolutely disgusting!! i cannot believe he is still in the business.

lonewolf
Oct. 24, 2002, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Similarly, it is a matter of personal beliefs and goals and how you place those in your priorities. Personally, the day that winning becomes so much to me that it overrides my morality and beliefs, to the point that it may jeopardize my horses’ lives, I will stop. I hope to god it never comes to that point. And should my goals ever lead me to the point of blindness, to the point where my goals lead me to be concerned only about my personal harm, not the harm to those I love, or those loved by those around me. Or anyone, I suppose.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why Becca is my hero, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW Erin, you said you still have the magazine articles on this subject. Do you have them on your computer (i.e is there any way you could send them to me?). I've read Hot Blood, but I'd like to see what other sources have to say.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He who claims to have made a small fortune in the horse business probably started with a large one.

tyedyecommando
Oct. 24, 2002, 09:48 AM
Not that I would ever ride with him nor do I condone what he did, but at least most everyoe knows what he did. There are a lot of scum out there that many people still see as "god" figures even though I would not want to be in the same room with them let alone pay them money to train or care for my horse. People who chose to train with him can look at the infomation and make a decision themselves.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it.
Jack Handy

buryinghill1
Oct. 24, 2002, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
In one post ydII said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Certainly wouldn't send one of my kids to him for a clinic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then she said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nothing wrong with going to the clinics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh. I prefer not to hang around with [known] criminals. ME. ME. I. MOI.
In the interest of toning down the thread, I thought it only fair to mention that, in my not pre-approved opinion, others may do as they wish. Free country, no?
(warning again... post not pre-approved) Alex Jayne has every right to send HIS kids to THE man who can teach kids how to win the finals. WIN THEM. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I respectfully submit, I may not agree with the path to the podium. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SaddleFitterVA
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:07 AM
I'm glad this one came up again, I've never taken the time to search out the old threads and I did not know the story.

Now, having said that, I have on many instances, been appalled at the way that otherwise, fine, and upstanding citizens will rationalize away their ethics and morals when it comes to winning a horse show.

I have to say, that when I hear things like "well, it isn't legal, but everybody does it" or "just so long as you don't get caught", my respect for the people uttering those remarks and their trainer plummets.

Since I'm just a nobody in the horse world, my respect does not matter to any of these people, but there are somethings that should not be rationalized. PERIOD.

I do believe that people can change and that once they've paid the price and been punished that they should be given the chance to go on with life. But, having said that, I'd have to know someone pretty well to be convinced that they had truly changed and grown, so a clinic is not where I'd be likely to find that out.

I can actually envision the rationalization process that would go through a person's mind to get to the point of killing an animal for insurance money. It is a twisted process to get there and requires thinking down a slippery slope of "not so bad" things...each progressively worse. Something that westerners are quite good at doing...maybe eastern cultures are also, but I don't know those.

It totally violates all of the ethical codes of behavior that I attempt to live my life by.

Flash44
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:23 AM
How much bad behavior is tolerable? How do we comprehend where someone has drawn the line in their own mind? Someone purposefully made some really bad decisions on more than one occasion. That tells me that there is something FUNDAMENTALLY ASKEW in how that person tells right from wrong.

Coreene
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:23 AM
But I do think that trashing McLain Ward was a bit off the mark.

rockstarr
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:38 AM
It's a wavy line, no doubt. And it's drawn on a case-by-case basis, as far as I'm concerned, and I can only speak for myself, of course.

We all make decisions every day, about everything from under whom to train, with whom to associate ... and even for whom to work. Our lives are a series of decisions. And, in my opinion, we should always ask ourselves if those decisions are prudent.

I suppose I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't give a rat's rear about fraternization with or economic support of questionable characters. That's their business. But I wouldn't take my life so lightly. Who knows how much time any one of us has here? I'll be spending mine trying to make decisions with which I can live and of which I am proud. It's not an infallible evaluation process by any means, but worth the effort nonetheless.

That goes for the topic at hand, and likely scores of other crossroads along the way.

kd welden
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:42 AM
Paul is a great trainer, I'm sure there is much to learn from him. As I remember though, he was always a tough man and could be rather... pointed... in his lessons. I saw many an excellent junior rider cry.

However, in a clinic situation I probably would jump at the opportunity. I'd bet he doesn't cost the top dollar that he once did and I'm also pretty certain that he's not going to teach ethics. We all know he failed that class...

Janet
Oct. 24, 2002, 10:48 AM
yd II

That was what I HOPED the reasoning was.

SaddleFitterVA
Oct. 24, 2002, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
How much bad behavior is tolerable? How do we comprehend where someone has drawn the line in their own mind? Someone purposefully made some really bad decisions on more than one occasion. That tells me that there is something FUNDAMENTALLY ASKEW in how that person tells right from wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flash,

I guess the question is, does this person continue to make the bad decisions? Or did the person truly change?

Totally theoretical for me. I'm a LNNN....a little no name nobody /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. And I'm unlikely to go to clinics with AHSA banned BNTs.

Mel

Seven
Oct. 24, 2002, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
However, in a clinic situation I probably would jump at the opportunity. I'd bet he doesn't cost the top dollar that he once did and I'm also pretty certain that he's not going to teach ethics. We all know he failed that class...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to single you out kd....but that sort of sentiment is not the point a lot of posters are trying to make.

It doesn't matter to me if my horse is in his care or if I were in regular training with him...to me, even $$$ for a clinic supports someone I find to be reprehensible.

I don't support (with money, time, energy) things/people/businesses that are wrong -- and I try my best to educate myself so that I feel fairly confident that those I *do* choose to support conduct business with a reasonable ethical standard. I don't work for the mob, I don't give money to political candidates with dishonest records, and if the KKK opened a WalMart in my town, I would shop there, either, just because it was the best place to pick up household items. Same considerations apply as going to a clinic with the likes of PV, IMHO.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

Flash44
Oct. 24, 2002, 11:39 AM
When you get lost, it is because you took a wrong turn. Next time you go down that road, you will not take that wrong turn again. Making a decision is an analytical process involving many different thoughts, feelings, and perceptions as well as past experiences. It is much harder to pinpoint what went wrong in that decision making process than it is to figure out why you got lost on your way to Grandma's house. Maybe someone won't make the same bad decision again due to the repercussions, but nothing was done to fix the thought process and that person is capable of making more bad decision because something in the way he or she reasons is askew.


Old horsemen's saying: Keep yourself in good company and your horses in bad company. Meaning, you will better yourself by surrounding yourself with good people. And you'll probably stay out of trouble. As for the horse, well, there is no such thing as a sure thing, but if you find a soft spot for your horse, make that trip to the entry office.

poltroon
Oct. 24, 2002, 12:32 PM
The best (?) part about Hot Blood is reading about Bailey's schemes for conning older women. They have a wonderful "only in the horse world" evil twist to them.

- Bailey singles out a lonely older woman, dates her, treats her to all sorts of lavish gifts as he "courts" her.

- One day, "Oh, I have this wonderful opportunity to buy a group of horses at bargain prices that I can flip for a lot more money. But I need cash today, and I don't have it. Oh woe is me, what a bummer."

- Woman says, "Oh, honey, I could give you a short term loan."

- "You could? Oh how wonderful. And as proof of my love and to ensure you'll get your money back, I'll specifically make the horses collateral on the loan."

- (Oh how sweet, thinks the woman. He's really looking out for me.)

- Bailey purchases the horses, stables them in a friend's boarding barn, and disappears. The woman is now the lucky owner of a set of nondescript horses worth considerably less than her loan. But she doesn't know that yet. All she knows is that "her" horses are generating board bills (for Bailey's friend) that she, as owner, now has to pay. Oh, and she's just been dumped by her beau.

- Now another friend offers to "help" her sell the horses (of course, the original deal having sadly fallen thru). This group of a dozen mares will be easier to sell if we add in this nice stallion I know about and make it an entire package. Woman buys $2K stallion for $20K, gets more board bill, and still can't sell the horses.

- Eventually she sells the horses at a tremendous loss.

Erin
Oct. 24, 2002, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonewolf:

BTW Erin, you said you still have the magazine articles on this subject. Do you have them on your computer (i.e is there any way you could send them to me?). I've read Hot Blood, but I'd like to see what other sources have to say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, most of them I only have in hard copy. (This was before COTH was online. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

A couple of the articles I wrote are listed on my home page though:

Chicago Jury Believes Burns, Convicts Lindemann of Fraud (http://www.erinharty.com/clips/lindemann.html) (Coreene posted this one already)

Lindemann Gets Maximum Sentence as Hulick Confesses in Court (http://www.erinharty.com/clips/sentence.html)

COTH did a LOT of articles about this, including profiles of the horses that were killed. I think Practical or Horseplay also did a very good article.

Like I said, I have most of them (and all the court documents, and mounds of notes /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in hard copy and could probably scan them in or something. But it would have to wait a few weeks, as they're in boxes in storage until I move into a new apartment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flash44
Oct. 24, 2002, 12:49 PM
The whole sad thing, along with Alydar, made Sports Illustrated. Gave horse sports a black eye in a big way.

buryinghill1
Oct. 24, 2002, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IJumpHi:
Anyone ever heard of him or rode with him? Plus, you guys seem to know everything about everyone and offer great insights on trainers!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IJumpHi: did you ever IMAGINE you'd get all of this STUFF when you asked your question ???
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Jane
Oct. 24, 2002, 01:14 PM
Erin, any chance of locating the article that profiled the horses killed? or appox. date of when it was published? I no longer have COTH copies dated that far back I don't think, but I can take a look.

For those who missed the 17-page thread on PV a year ago, here's the link:

Paul Valliere Ad (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=7536006131)

kd welden
Oct. 24, 2002, 01:19 PM
Serendipity, I totally respect your opinion but I guess we all draw the wavy line somewhere... If I had a chance to take a clinic with someone, even someone as questionable as Paul Valliere, I would go to see what I learned. However, unless I learn a whole lot I'd guess that I would only go once.

But I respect your choice not to go, you have good reasons.

Ghazzu
Oct. 24, 2002, 01:45 PM
In my line of work, I'm called upon periodically to end an animal's life.
Even when it is the merciful thing to do, I find it a difficult thing. I do not take it at all lightly.


Reading posts which describe the willful decision to end a horse's life to collect some spare cash as a "mistake" makes me want to cry.

It is _no way_ _no how_ merely a "mistake".
It is symptomatic of a view of the life of a horse as an entirely disposable commodity.

If you, despite that, want to ride with someone who would do that, go ahead.
But stop trying to fool yourselves that it wasn't a deeply evil act.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Erin
Oct. 24, 2002, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jane:
Erin, any chance of locating the article that profiled the horses killed? or appox. date of when it was published? I no longer have COTH copies dated that far back I don't think, but I can take a look.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The indictments of the "Chicago 23" were announced in (I think) the summer of 1994. I think the article ran that fall or winter. Then the trials started up in late '95 and '96, I think.

I don't think that's one that I kept, but it was a really nice article, by Christina Proctor, if I remember right. Tricia/Gofer would know.

HSM
Oct. 24, 2002, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
Some of y'all have no life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worse than discussing thongs or writing song lyrics. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

roxy527
Oct. 24, 2002, 04:36 PM
There are tons of BNT's out there- why line PV's pockets when you can go elsewhere?

ThinkBigEq
Oct. 24, 2002, 07:53 PM
If you just wanna ride, take lessons....if you wanna ride WELL, ride with Paul. Thats what someone told me before i became a working student of his. He is wonderful to the horses....treats them all like they're worth a million dollars. He has given me the opportunity to do things i never thought i would with my riding. I even got to ride a Grand Prix horse! In a month, my riding has improved more than in eight years, and he is an extremly kindhearted person. He may be "tough as nails" in the ring, but he knows how to get the absolute best out of his riders. His work is reflected in the show ring as well. His riders win because they are tight as hell and damn effective. I think he's a great person inside and out. Thats MY opinion, and no one is going to change it EVER!!!!!!

MBS
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThinkBigEq:
. He is wonderful to the horses....treats them all like they're worth a million dollars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure when that horse was being murdered, it felt like a million dollars!!!!!

Paloma
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThinkBigEq: Paul is The Best!
If you just wanna ride, take lessons....if you wanna ride WELL, ride with Paul. Thats what someone told me before i became a working student of his. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd rather ride with GM, Laura Kraut, Katie Prudent or the hundreds of others who are BETTER HUMAN BEINGS as well as being superior trainers/instructors/clinicians to anything Paul could ever hope to be.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He is wonderful to the horses....treats them all like they're worth a million dollars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Really? Do all million dollar horses get their legs broken or get electrocuted?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think he's a great person inside and out. Thats MY opinion, and no one is going to change it EVER!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And you are looking at him through rose colored glasses.

What he did was NOT a mistake. It was an intentional and deliberately evil act for the sole purpose of defrauding a business of a lot of money, and motivated purely by greed. There was nothing accidental about it. The horses suffered needlessly for it, simply because they weren't worth the millions of dollars that Paul himself had over-valued them to be worth. It was a vicious circle spawned by pure greed.

If you, or anyone think someone who would deliberately make an animal suffer, is "great" then you have some serious issues with ethics and morality, and you are no better than he. And he is worse than the scum you scrape from the bottom of the septic tank. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

To patronize the man is to condone his actions. You are making the statement that a blue ribbon is worth a few dead horses. That is sick. I'd be outside the clinic picketting him, with signs and photos of the dead horses showing just what a "great" man he really is. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

&gt;&gt; If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif &lt;&lt;

SBT
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cashmere:
in my opinion, the only difference between Paul Valliere and a lot of other trainers is that he got caught.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right on about this. I very carefully check out every potential trainer/barn I deal with for this very reason.

And, just so you all don't think I'm talking out of my hat on this subject, I once boarded with a trainer who spent 30 days in jail as an accomplice to her business partner, who seduced an underage student. I knew about her history, but somehow I convinced myself that she deserved a "second chance," and that perhaps she had changed. I also wanted my horse to be at that particular facility, so it was a convenience issue as well.

As the months went by, I began to see more and more what a completely screwed-up, mentally-ill person she was. She was paranoid to the point of absurdity (not letting me put cards on the horses' stall doors with names/feed because she didn't want anyone to know, or guess, who owned them), manipulative, unpredictable, obsessive, adversarial, and just an angry, miserable person. She communicated on a daily basis with her jailed colleague, sometimes for hours on end. And when I finally stood up for myself and refused to budge on certain ethical issues, as well as my care preferences for my horse, she saw it as me questioning her authority, saw me as a major threat, and turned into an absolute monster before my eyes (let's just say I've never been verbally assaulted/threatened so badly in my life). A regular Dr. Jeckyl and Ms. Hyde. She was very, very scary. And whether her instability was the cause or the result of her initial run-in with the law, I can't say. All I know is that I will never, EVER have any dealings with a convicted offender again...be they statutory rapists, boyfriend stabbers, or insurance-fraud murderers.

As far as me and my money are concerned, people whose judgement is poor enough to have made these CHOICES (NOT "mistakes") ONCE already, are not people whose business I want to support or whose acquaintence I would like to make. Bad companions ruin good character. The woman I dealt with was very good at brainwashing people, to the point where she had me believing she and her friend were innocent (despite the convictions and all the evidence to the contrary). That's what messed-up people do: drag you down to their level, play on your pity and gullibility, and get you to believe that their crimes were all just some big misunderstanding/miscarriage of justice.

I like how the cons in the Shawshank Redemption put it best:

"What are you in for?"
"Everyone in here is innocent. Didn't you know that?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Truly, the criminal mind is so warped that many people don't even realize they've done anything wrong. They can commit a crime and, in their mind, justify it as a "mistake" (as in an "I didn't mean for it to happen" mistake), or a "misunderstanding" ("If she hadn't threatened to tell my wife about the affair, I wouldn't have had to kill her.") It always seems to involve some sort of displacement of responsibility.

If someone is mentally-warped enough to commit a crime once, I, personally, would never trust them again. I learned this the hard way. Some people just should not be given a second chance.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull." -Bart Simpson

Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron

paw
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThinkBigEq:
. He is wonderful to the horses....treats them all like they're worth a million dollars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure when that horse was being murdered, it felt like a million dollars!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's totally uncalled for.

What amazes me about all of this is that no one is apparently even willing to think that PV is _sorry_ for what he did and wouldn't do it again. I don't know him, don't know what he thinks, and don't particularly care one way or the other, but the vehemence of the people who want him to - what? What could he possibly do to atone? Considering that horses and training are his livelihood? Become a homeless person?

Aren't people allowed to learn from their past mistaken actions and become rehabilitated?

Anne
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:25 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif MBStark I found that statement particularly ironic too.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

SBT
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paw:
What could he possibly do to atone? Considering that horses and training are his livelihood? Become a homeless person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anybody can flip burgers or bag groceries. As for atonement, I'm not sure there's anything he can do to make up for taking those horses' lives. As for forgiveness, I would hope that a lot of people have forgiven him. But there is a difference between forgiving and putting yourself in a position to be wronged again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Aren't people allowed to learn from their past mistaken actions and become rehabilitated?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they are. But that doesn't mean other people have to trust them or support them again.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull." -Bart Simpson

Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron

Paloma
Oct. 24, 2002, 08:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paw:

What amazes me about all of this is that no one is apparently even willing to think that PV is _sorry_ for what he did and wouldn't do it again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He is only sorry that he got caught. For such a heinous act, that is generally the only remorse they feel. If he was a truly good person, he'd never have done it in the first place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What could he possibly do to atone? Considering that horses and training are his livelihood? Become a homeless person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be too good for him. I'd say let him experience some of what the horses felt in their final moments. Let's smash his legs with a crow bar (humans don't have to be euthanised for such injuries) and maybe put a shock collar on him for a week (set at max) and just randomly zap him a few hundred times a day. THEN, maybe I'l think he's atoned for his sins. But not before.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Aren't people allowed to learn from their past mistaken actions and become rehabilitated?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, electro-shock therapy is useful in rehabbing cases such as this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

&gt;&gt; If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif &lt;&lt;

elizabeth
Oct. 25, 2002, 03:38 AM
Now who wants to explain the related broken-leg-with-a-crow-bar-sting operation?

(I have no first-hand knowledge of that, so I am not in a position to tell the story. . . .)

VTrider
Oct. 25, 2002, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
Some of y'all have no life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worse than discussing thongs or writing song lyrics. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thongs are a part of my every-day life. How is Paul Valliere a part of yours? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HSM
Oct. 25, 2002, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paw:

What amazes me about all of this is that no one is apparently even willing to think that PV is _sorry_ for what he did and wouldn't do it again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I don't think that makes a whole heck of a lot of difference. Like I tell my kids, saying "I'm sorry" doesn't erase what you've done. Of course, with my kids the offenses have been maybe a little less serious. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What could he possibly do to atone? Considering that horses and training are his livelihood? Become a homeless person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe he shoud have given that some thought before he planned and carried out a violent crime. Seems to me that forfeiting the opportunity to work with horses is a reasonable punishment. Actually, he got off pretty easy IMHO.

Anne
Oct. 25, 2002, 05:34 AM
Elizabeth email me and I'll do my best to explain.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

kd welden
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:20 AM
It might help to get the dates of that Sports Illustrated article. For some who weren't around when all this happened it woudl explain a lot and could be found in any library.

Otherwise, I have to say I'm impressed that so far everyone has kept their head on this thread and responded with facts or explained that it was what they heard.

I would never have a chance at a PV clinic and am starting to change my mind on my earlier post, I agree, I'd enjoy a lesson with some other trainers a lot more.

ride2hounds
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:30 AM
What truly amazes me is that people are defending this..."person". If you were to substitute "human being" into the equation for each horse he brutally killed, I defy anyone on this board to say it would have been nothing less than...
PRE-MEDITATED MURDER.
But since it was "only" horses involved, it was merely a "mistake. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~

Seven
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
Some of y'all have no life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worse than discussing thongs or writing song lyrics. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thongs are a part of my every-day life. How is Paul Valliere a part of yours? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PV may not directly be part of my everyday life but horses, the industry, decency and ethics certainly are.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

Midge
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:41 AM
I am also in the camp that believes this was not the first horse, only the one on which he got caught.

Back in the resurpine days, you could walk through Paul's barn and see the manure on the wall. He was no better than anyone else.

You could also walk through the aisle and see horses with their heads tied to the rafters.

And for those of you who say he's no different than others who haven't be caught, you are so right, but how does that excuse his crime???

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Midge
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:

Thongs are a part of my every-day life. How is Paul Valliere a part of yours? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I have to attend a horse show where he is present, I will be horrified, especially if I have to watch him at the ingate of the ASPCA Maclay class.

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:55 AM
Elizabeth, the crowbar incident was how Tommy Burns was caught. I think the horse was Streetwise? He was somehow not insured for death due to colic, so the electrocution method (what Burns usually used) couldn't be used. He had to die from an "accident."

As I recall, the horse was being vanned down to Florida or somewhere, and they pulled over to the side of a deserted road and Burns took a swing at the horse's leg with a crowbar. It was supposed to look like the horse freaked out and broke his leg in transit.

Unbeknownst to him, federal agents were tailing the van. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif They later described in court documents the sickening sound of the horse's leg breaking and the animal's horrified screaming. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Burns was summarily arrested.

I forget who Streetwise belonged to. Was that Dana Tripp's horse?

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:57 AM
And a note of caution. Remember that you are ONLY allowed to talk about offenses which have been proven in court. This isn't the place to speculate about other illegal activities someone may or may not have taken part in.

Also, although I doubt anyone will listen and I'll just end up closing this thread soon... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif can we stay away from the vehement attacks please? It is quite obvious that people have different opinions on this, and attacking them for those opinions isn't going to serve any purpose.

buryinghill1
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:01 AM
Streetwise was Donna Brown's horse (now ex-wife of Olympian Buddy). Buddy was not involved.
Dana Tripp (DVM) got busted for falsifying documents (coggins, if I recall correctly) and was under house arrest (with an ankle deal) in their Pittsburgh-area home.
Streetwise was murdered in Ocala on the showgrounds. Not some "deserted road." The 2 fed agents watched Tommy and partner (name escapes me as my blood boils) smash Streetwise's leg (on ramp to trailer). Local cops were called and arrests were made.
Tommy started singing... and the rest is history. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Oh, Streetwise had history of colics and insurance policy on him excluded payment if he coliced (colicked?)...

And if anybody cares, Donna is alive and well in NYC-- and their daughter (an adult!) is doing just fine...

HSM
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
[
Thongs are a part of my every-day life. How is Paul Valliere a part of yours? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry VT, I can't answer b/c that's WAY more information than I needed! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BostonBanker
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:07 AM
When did you ride with PV? I know my old horse, Boston, was in his barn for quite a while - 10 or so years. I'm always trying to track down more people who knew him in his younger years!

"My life has not purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" Charles M. Schulz

SaddleFitterVA
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:08 AM
what is the deal with the reference to reserpine and manure on the wall?

I am a "backyard horsekeeper" have no need to drug my darling ponies and have 2 or 3 who choose to back up to the wall and so my stall walls always look like manure.....

Does reserpine cause this? or does it cause diarrhea??? Or was this a mere allegorical reference that I'm too thick to catch on to?

Mel

VTrider
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:08 AM
LOLOLOL! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Paloma
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:16 AM
SFVa, I think they're referring to the "writing' on the wall, but since horses can't write... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

&gt;&gt; If Noah had been Truly Wise,
He would have swatted Those Two Flies... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif &lt;&lt;

Sean D. Rogers
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:33 AM
Count me in for the people who'd attend a PV clinic. I'd absolutely do it! He's produced an infinite amount of incredible horsepeople and is simply one of the most knowledgeable trainers in history.

To Zoef:

I LOVED that horse Zoef! I assume you own(ed) him? One of my favorite horses EVER!

Zoef
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:45 AM
BostonBanker - check your My Pop.

This wil be my last post on the subject, as I don't think that anyone has anything else useful to add at this point. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it. Personal attacks will not change mine as I am sure that my posts will not change those vehemently in the opposite camp.

What strikes me in reading the posts though, is that many people are essentially and indirectly in their responses making blanket statements that people are forever "bad" because they did something wrong. To take that approach really means that human conduct is not malleable, which I do not believe. Each of us has done "bad" things in our lives, things that we are ashamed of or would like to change if we can do them over again.

Maybe there are bad acts that are so bad that someone should never been forgiven? I contemplate this as I think about the 17 year old sniper and whether I could forgive him for his actions. But when I think about it, I feel more sorry for him than anything else. Who knows what his life would have been like if he had not picked the wrong father figure. I can't say. I don't think I believe that humans can be born evil - I think things happen in society that make people do horrible things.

A lot of you seem to draw the line that killing a horse is such a bad act that one cannot be redeemed. Assuming that, I would think that murder of a human being would have to fall in the same camp. Presumably regardless of intent (drunk driver who kills). But would mean that lots of people in this country would never be given a second chance. While certainly not the norm, look at murders who find God in prison and come out and do something good for society afterward. It does happen.

The thing which I find telling in this thread is that the people who actually know PV and have ridden with him are the ones who believe that he is ultimately a good man and that he has "reformed". A lot of you are saying things about him in the abstract, but unless you know him personally then your statement is not very thoughtful to me.

There are a lot of people out there who make judgments without having experienced the thing on which they are judging. For example, I had a "friend" who told me how stupid and horrible the Harry Potter books were. When I asked him if he had read them, the answer was "no." To which I responded "Well then how could you know." So to IjumpHi and others out there I would say to go find out for yourself and then make the judgment.

hobson
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:49 AM
Isn't it funny how the criminals only become sorry for what they did AFTER being caught.

Raise your hand if you think PV and his pals would have turned themselves in and repented had they not been busted?

As long as people define "wonderful trainer" and "good person" as "someone who helps ME get blue ribbons and I don't care how many horses they killed and how many owners they bilked," the horse industry will continue to suffer from this kind of corruption.

It just stuns me that PV is not automatically shunned by everyone. Just looking at the guy would make me ill.

BNP
Oct. 25, 2002, 07:56 AM
Reserpine causes bad diarrhea...hence the manure on the walls. Any one care to mention the nasty cocaine use in some barns? (trainers/grooms/???) The reason (sometimes) that people make bad decisions might be the undue influence of psychotropic chemicals.

[This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 25, 2002 at 11:23 AM.]

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 08:25 AM
BNP, unless drug possession charges have actually been FILED against someone, or they have admitted drug use in print in an article you can produce, please don't mention drug use affiliated with a particular barn.

If you want to talk about drug abuse on the circuit in general, that's fine. But not as it pertains to any individual, unless you can substantiate those statements.

elizabeth
Oct. 25, 2002, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
The thing which I find telling in this thread is that the people who actually know PV and have ridden with him are the ones who believe that he is ultimately a good man and that he has "reformed". A lot of you are saying things about him in the abstract, but unless you know him personally then your statement is not very thoughtful to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about those of us who knew him and stayed far away?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hey, Erin, didn't the doctor who certified the broken-leg-death recently get her license back?

Uhm, yeah, everyone who wants her working on their horse, raise their hand!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SGray
Oct. 25, 2002, 09:52 AM
a friend of mine once worked as a groom for PV - he told me some interesting stories (did not work for him long) - in following our BB rules I will say nothing of these tales other than I would add my name to the list of those that would never have anything to do with ....

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 10:09 AM
Elizabeth, I can't recall if the vet (Dana Tripp) was involved with Streetwise or not. In fact, I don't really remember what she was charged with at all... can someone clarify, so we're sure we've got the facts straight here?

I hadn't heard she'd gotten her license back. Is that true?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That seems... odd.

Weatherford
Oct. 25, 2002, 10:22 AM
yd II got it correct: Dana Tripp was convicted of falsifying government documents (coggins tests) and lost her license to practice Vet med. I was under the impression in reading Hot Blood that was forever.

She does still compete under her "Dr" and married name, however.

19 year member of the New Hope clique! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dublin
Oct. 25, 2002, 10:28 AM
Still calling yourself Doctor when you've lost your license to practice.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*****
It's not California Dreamin' -
It's an all California World Series!
~~GO GIANTS!!!!!!~~

kd welden
Oct. 25, 2002, 10:32 AM
Hobson wrote: "Raise your hand if you think PV and his pals would have turned themselves in and repented had they not been busted?"

Well... this is not exactly the same but... Paul did only use Tommy Burns once and Tommy was "singing" about all of his murders so I think that's fairly accurate.

While I'm sure that there were instances of medications, etc. (as in all barns), PV didn't make this mistake twice.

I always perceived PV as a hard man, tough and unrelenting but he did get the best of his students and his horses went just like everyone else's. Its not like he had an upper hand over anyone else.

So, in reply to your question above... I don't think he raised his hand and said "get me!!!" but I do think that in retrospect he thought, "what have I done? and was it worth it?" - I bet that even before he was caught he would have said no.

This does not imply that I think he's a good man of that I admire his ethics because I don't but... I do think that he deserves a chance to give back and I know he's tried to do so. So maybe those of us in the "haters" camp should back off a bit, while casting a cautious eye, and let him try to be a better person.

Zoef, I admire you for standing up for him and your beliefs. You are a strong person and that's a great quality to have. (and yes, I loved your horse too... the only person I remember riding Zoef was Carrie Ellington, is that you?)

Janet
Oct. 25, 2002, 10:33 AM
In general, I subscribe to "hate the sin, not the sinner".

For instance, a man I have known since I was about 12 (and he was in his early 20s) was convicted (a few years ago)of sexual offenses (concentual sex with a 16 year old, and videotaping women in a dress store changing room.) He has NEVER behaved in the LEAST BIT inapproriately to me. But I have no reason to doubt the convictions.

I still interact socially with him. But if I were in any way responsible for a young girl, I wouldn't let her visit him unaccompanied.

I do not know PV, but I imagine many people who do/did take the same "hate the sin, not the sinner" attitude. Just as I have no fear of being mistreated by this man, they have no fear that they (or their horses) will be mistreated by PV.

But I still find it hard to see how they recommend OTHER PEOPLE to get their horses involved with him

jetsmom
Oct. 25, 2002, 11:18 AM
Zoef- To me, intent means everything. (Drunk driving excluded, since I consider drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car, and killing someone, murder). There is a difference between killing a horse by accident (ie, missing a distance at a cross country jump and flipping your horse so it needs to be put down), and intentionally killing one so you can avoid embarrassment of your peers and defraud an insurance company. What PV did was intentional.
Personally, I think he should have been banned from owning or working with any animals. Let him mow lawns, flip burgers, go to school to learn another trade or something. There are thousands of people who earn livings everyday doing something that would not be their first choice in order to survive, and they aren't homeless. Working with animals is a priviledge, not a right. To me, you should give up that privelidge if you abuse it.
I believe that there ARE some things too heinous to be forgiven and forgotten. If he was truly repetent (sp?), then maybe some people might forgive him, but I still don't think that forgiving him means he should be allowed to work with animals.
To me, him being able to make money off the same beautiful animals that he so coldly executed, is soooo wrong.
To the people that choose to train with him, I just don't understand how someone can put winning above character. There are too many trainers out there that don't kill horses, that you can learn from. How many of the people posting that support him because he is so good, can truly say that their riding is at such a high level that they can't learn just as much from someone else?

Flash44
Oct. 25, 2002, 11:45 AM
These horses are such saints to let us hop up on their backs and jump them over jumps and go down the road and stand on the trailer all day or live in a tent. So you return the kindness and generosity of the horse by abusing it (or killing it) because it is not good enough? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I see a complete and blantant disregard for life as well as a serious lack of compassion. Those people should never be allowed near animals.

I don't really think you can compare the young sniper to this situation. An immature and easily influenced kid hanging with the WRONG CROWD does not equal a grown adult planning and arranging for the death or abuse of an animal. Somewhere along the line, the kid and the adult were not taught right from wrong.

It's hard being a nerd.

[This message was edited by Flash44 on Oct. 26, 2002 at 12:53 PM.]

Just My Style
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:12 PM
There was huge article written in Equus edition #209 (sorry, don't have the date) by Laura Hillenbrand. I actually copied the article because it was so fascinating.

Here are a few facts taken from the article:

"USET member Barney Ward pleaded not guilty to a 19-count indictment accusing him of arranging the electrocution of show horses Condino in 1987, Rub the Lamp and Roseau Plateau in 1989 and Charisma in 1990. He is also accused of defrauding insurance companies of $570,000. In addition, Ward is charged with obstruction of justice for allegedly trhreatening the life of alleged horse killer Timmy Ray and paying money to maintain others silence. He faces a maximum of 35 years in prison if convicted."

"Owner Paul Valliere pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud in the death of Roseau Platiere. He faces a maximum sentence of five years."

"Veterinarian Dana Tripp Waters DVM pleaded guilty to defraud the US government for falsifying EIA tests, misrepresentation of of felony for knowing about the plot to kill Streetwise and lying about it to federal officials and failure to file income taxes. She faces a maximum sentence of nine years."

This should clear up a few questions in previous posts about what particular charges were. I always found it disturbing that none of the charges ever stemed back to cruelty to animals (a slap on the wrist). Instead, the charges mainly revolved around wire and insurance fraud. The horse's deaths always seemed to take a backseat.

Seven
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cashmere:
I always found it disturbing that none of the charges ever stemed back to cruelty to animals (a slap on the wrist). Instead, the charges mainly revolved around wire and insurance fraud. The horse's deaths always seemed to take a backseat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure that's because the charges brought against them (and ultimately convicted for) were are brought under our Federal laws. Although I've never checked, there's probably no federal statute dealing with animal abuse. Typically the federal legal systems tries to make laws of national importance (kidnapping across state lines, highway safety, interstate fraud, etc.) while leaving the states free to regulate issues of more local importance within their borders (traffic violations, taxes, animal and human welfare, etc).

As far as I know, none of these individuals were prosecuted on the state level, so animal welfare charges would not have been included in the indictments. Not that any charges like that would have had a big impact because there are frequently no real penalties attached to them, but that's another issue.

****
New York Horse Rescue (http://www.nyhr.org)

Anne
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:36 PM
Dublin, sad as it is, Dana Tripp Waters earned a DVM degree. You can't take that away from her so technically she is still a doctor. The license to practice is a different story. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

dublin
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:46 PM
You're of course right, Anne - although it still bothers me after what she did! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

If I recall correctly from my reading of Hot Blood, the prosecutors went after these people using the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) statutes.

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:51 PM
Serendipity has it exactly right. The charges they faced were felonies and probably carried MUCH stiffer penalties than any animal abuse charge would have. Remember, animals are considered property in most states. It is not necessarily illegal to kill an animal (humanely) that belongs to you.

At any rate, Ward, Lindeman, et al, were convicted of felonies and served some substantial time. (A couple of years for each of them, if I remember right.) That's pretty major.

So while they weren't actually convicted of cruelty to animals, the charges they DID get were much more serious.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Chicago and FBI really, really did a great job. This was a hugely complicated case that required years of work. And having spoken to several of the prosecuting attorneys and even an FBI agent or two during the course of Lindemann's trial, I can say that they were very determined to see justice served.

And yes, dublin, you're right... most of the charges were related to RICO. Mail fraud is a very handy thing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wadino
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:55 PM
Is this the Dana Tripp Waters who is married to Chuck Waters in Pittsburg?

Weatherford
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:57 PM
I have had some correspondance with Ken Englade, the author of Hot Blood, and I guarentee you, he was appalled by the horse industry and what he found in his research.

The corruption goes much deeper than we can imagine, and he wasn't surprised at all to learn that there are still nasty things happening. One of the things that bothered him tremendously was the number of people who went scot free because the statute of limitations for prosecution had passed. Tommy Burns named a BUNCH of other pros who are still working the circuit, doing their stuff.

Very sad, indeed. I wish he could have PUBLISHED the rest of those names rather than relagating them to his file. Couldn't publish, as they weren't convicted... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

19 year member of the New Hope clique! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

poltroon
Oct. 25, 2002, 12:59 PM
I seem to recall that Streetwise's "accident" is on videotape, and quite horrible. The agents were really surprised and were horrified by the whole thing, but couldn't act to stop him, because otherwise they would not be able to prosecute (swinging a crowbar near a horse is not a crime, regardless of your intentions). /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

They had to wait for the insurance claim to be made to make their case as strong as possible.

buryinghill1
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RzB:
Is this the Dana Tripp Waters who is married to Chuck Waters in
Pittsburg[h]?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yes.

poltroon
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:03 PM
Did he ever say how many killings he'd done total? Certainly by the time he got to those 14 he had a well-practiced routine. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

buryinghill1
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Tommy Burns named a BUNCH of other pros who are still working the circuit, doing their stuff.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And veterinarians, and owners. Reading the transcripts from the Illinois court was frightening. Of course, there was little evidence - just a lot of fingerpointing. I know a lot of folks who testified, and still look over their shoulders...

SGray
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yd II:

Reading the transcripts from the Illinois court was frightening.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would be public record wouldn't it? any ideas how a person would obtain a copy?

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:23 PM
I don't recall anyone being named during the actual trial. (Lindemann was the only one to go to trial, IIRC, and I was there for the entirety of the proceedings.) There were detailed accounts of the trial in the COTH, so if you wanted an abbreviated summary of the trial, that'd be a start. I'm sure you could also obtain a full transcript, though.

I'm sure more information was given in depositions and such, but I have no idea if these are a matter of public record. You could contact the U.S. Attorney's office in Chicago and ask where you would go to view records on a particular trial. I kind of doubt they could just be copied and mailed to you, as there'd be volumes and volumes of paper. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know that records of the Lindemann/Ward trials were available in a library of sorts in the Dirksen Federal Building in Chicago, but I don't know if the records are kept there indefinitely, or just while the trial is taking place.

Spunky
Oct. 25, 2002, 01:58 PM
I disagree with your statements that these people shouldn't be allowed to work with animals.

I believe that every child should grow up with animals and taught to respect them. Animals can help us to be better human beings.

I am saddened by the deliberate death of an innocent creature. I sincerely hope that PV works every day to atone for what he did. If he truly wants to, then being around horses is the only way he can make it up to them.

Horses don't hold grudges. I know you guys are only looking out for them, since they can't defend themselves against human greed and egotism. I hope he thinks every day about that poor horse. But I think that being with horses is an important part of his rehabilitation.

"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?"

Zoef
Oct. 25, 2002, 02:19 PM
I don't want anyone to ascribe my opinions to the wrong party, so for the record I am NOT Carrie Ellington.

jetsmom
Oct. 25, 2002, 03:01 PM
If I'm not mistaken, PV had been around horses for much of his life up until the horse killing...it didn't exactly help him become a better human being. As for teaching him respect and compassion...well, let's just say it fell short.
He isn't working around horses now to somehow pay back for what he did. He sure isn't doing it for free. I believe it all comes down to wanting to make as much money as possible. If he was doing it to atone for past sins I think he would be better off teaching free clinics all over the country at small/unknown/poorly funded barns...free, being the operative word. This person has no conscience or he WOULD be doing something similar to what I suggested...not running an ad in a national publication offering a pittance to 9/11 animals.

Court@HJ-OH
Oct. 25, 2002, 03:28 PM
Was it only Lindemann and Tommy Burns(the sandman right)? PV and Ward didn't did they?

**Courtney**
"Court, you are THE QUEEN OF LEAN!" My trainer!

"I may not agree with what someone has to say, but I will die for their right to say it" every American

Erin
Oct. 25, 2002, 03:42 PM
Ward did time, I'm almost positive.

Burns may not have, in exchange for his cooperation. Possibly the same with PV.

I'm sure PV was fined and everything, but I don't recall anyone but GL and BW doing time.

rockstar
Oct. 25, 2002, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
Isn't it funny how the criminals only become sorry for what they did AFTER being caught.

Raise your hand if you think PV and his pals would have turned themselves in and repented had they not been busted?

As long as people define "wonderful trainer" and "good person" as "someone who helps ME get blue ribbons and I don't care how many horses they killed and how many owners they bilked," the horse industry will continue to suffer from this kind of corruption.

It just stuns me that PV is not automatically shunned by everyone. Just looking at the guy would make me ill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hobson, I'm not directing this at you per say, I'm just saying it as a general thought provked by your above comment.


Have you ever told a lie and justified the doing of it for a reason that allowed you to acquit yourself (in your mind) of any guilt?

I know I have... and I'd be very suspect of any human who said he/she had not.

We all possess such a stunning ability to deceive ourselves at times. I find it to be one of the most shocking aspects of human behavior.

And I'm not surprised at all by those who aren't sorry for their wrongdoing until they are caught. In so many cases, it's the getting caught that finally snaps the wrongdoer out of the state of deception he/she exists in. It takes getting caught to make the person snap out of it and wake up to the wrong that he/she has been so artfully perpetuating. And, often, that person wants nothing more than the rest of his/her life to atone for what was done.

And, unfortunately, this is not always the case. There are many who know EXACTLY what they’re doing and why and could care less how wrong it is… they “wake up” to nothing when they are caught except the fact that they now have to deal with the ramifications.

But, without knowing someone, I could never deny his/her right to TRULY be sorry for his/her actions and be sincerely capable of utter regret.

Vote November 5th!!!

Jaysee
Oct. 25, 2002, 05:22 PM
&lt;yawn&gt; /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Lexi Luther
Oct. 25, 2002, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
Some of y'all have no life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does anyone else hear the pot calling the kettle black? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What its to you if people discuss Paul V?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thongs are a part of my every-day life. How is Paul Valliere a part of yours? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being from The Confederacy, you may not be aware the Paul V is a professional in the Northeast? He sells horses and teaches extensively. A lot of people train with him, hundreds have trained with him, many more buy horses from him, making Paul a part of daily life. BTW, the war is over. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif We won.

I'm sorry to sound so mean! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif To me this is the epitome of hypocracy; the woman who claims to hail from the now defunct "Confederacy" while also hailing the impact of thongs on current society (as if they've just been invented /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif), renouncing those who debate Paul Valliere on a horse exclusive bulletin board, while insulting participants, mind you, of the same cyber paragon to which she/he has logged more than 4000 posts in the span of a mere two years for taking an interest in Paul Valliere one way or the other. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

HSM
Oct. 25, 2002, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaysee:
&lt;yawn&gt; /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If ya wanna sleep I hear it's real quiet over on the Horse Care Forum. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tosca
Oct. 25, 2002, 09:19 PM
Woo weee, Lexi Luther, that was some post. Bravo.
VTRider, I thought your posts on this thread were extremely offensive and completely uncalled for.

I'm always glad to see threads like these pop up often because they, at the very least, inform people. If you're going to train with Paul Valliere, fine, it's your soul /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but at least be aware, for crying out loud, of what he did. And think long and hard at how your actions have an effect on the horse world, because they do. There is something essentially wrong when a man can be convicted of having his horse killed for money, and only a few years later is able to continue his business in the horse world successfully! Let him "function in society" somewhere else--in some education, medical or whatever have you profession--but for god's sake he does not deserve to be around horses.

Selma: That MacGyver's a genius.
Bob: First of all he's not a genius, he's an actor. And second, he's not much of an actor.
Selma: You're lying! You're lying!
Sideshow Bob: No Selma, this is lying: that was a well-plotted piece of non-claptrap that never made me want to retch! ~The Simpsons~

hifi
Oct. 25, 2002, 09:28 PM
I am sickened by the whole kill horses for insurance money thing. Wouldn't in be great if the horses could do the same thing in return. Then they could run around in diamond studded paddocks and eat gold covered carrots.
I pray for those dead horses.

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
www.melodicfarms.com (http://www.melodicfarms.com)
www.touchdownfarms.com (http://www.touchdownfarms.com)

VTrider
Oct. 26, 2002, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:

VTRider, I thought your posts on this thread were extremely offensive and completely uncalled for.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I wore granny panties instead of thongs, would you be less offended?

thecowboyway
Oct. 26, 2002, 05:48 AM
If my soul is in mortal danger by the choices I make on where to ride than God just has to much time on his hands. This post has gotten so out of control, I do understand the whys (what he did was/is a horrible thing) but I don't understand how we(on the bb) feel we need to attack each other over it. Last I checked Paul hasn't posted(most likely because he can't even turn on a computer) so theres no reason to jump down anyones throat like they were him. If VTrider is trying to lighten up a very dark subject, then Bravo! I think its time to lock this thing anyway.....

[This message was edited by leaper3 on Oct. 26, 2002 at 09:21 AM.]

MBS
Oct. 26, 2002, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Ward did time, I'm almost positive.

Burns may not have, in exchange for his cooperation. Possibly the same with PV.

I'm sure PV was fined and everything, but I don't recall anyone but GL and BW doing time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Marion Hulick did time as well didn't she???

Court@HJ-OH
Oct. 26, 2002, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tosca:

VTRider, I thought your posts on this thread were extremely offensive and completely uncalled for.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I wore granny panties instead of thongs, would you be less offended?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VT, while I thought that your post were unnecessary, I did think that they were funny, and I like your horse so I will forgive you!

**Courtney**
"Court, you are THE QUEEN OF LEAN!" My trainer!

"I may not agree with what someone has to say, but I will die for their right to say it" every American

Flash44
Oct. 26, 2002, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spunky:

I disagree with your statements that these people shouldn't be allowed to work with animals.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, let him work around yours then. I choose to place my animals and children with people who have a proven record of putting the horse's health and well being ahead of any monetary gain they may attain by deliberately harming or KILLING them. It's not like he just skimped on the quality of hay, for crying out loud. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BenRidin
Oct. 26, 2002, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by chimaera :

He is only sorry that he got caught. For such a heinous act, that is generally the only remorse they feel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you know this? Did he confess this to you? Otherwise I think it is best that people stop putting words in his mouth and talking about what kind of person he is (you have no place to say unless you really know!)

Sorry chimaera I didn't mean to single you out or anything, this wasn't just to you, it was directed to everyone on here.

Yes you are all allowed to have your opinions about someone but where should we draw the line where you should keep certain ideas of someone to yourself?

~BenRidin

Sean D. Rogers
Oct. 26, 2002, 01:06 PM
Tosca, your post is insanely offensive. I have many friends who ride with Paul and your God-complex in suggesting that people who ride with him have a flaw in their soul is absolutely RIDICULOUS and COMPLETELY crosses the line!

Furthermore, not sure which God you pray to but mine preaches forgiveness, not hate.

jlf
Oct. 26, 2002, 01:06 PM
I took lessons from Paul during the early to mid 1990's. I always loved riding with him- while he was tough, he made you ride your best - I never left a lesson unsatisfied. I also enjoyed his personality - he was generally very positive with me (and the other juniors) and would make me laugh.
I also worked for Paul after the scandal unfolded and there is no doubt in my mind that he has paid greatly for his poor choices. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think that people do make mistakes (however serious they may be), and yes, even conscious decisions can be mistakes. His did not go unpunished. And quite frankly, do people really believe he'd do anything to jeopardize his career now? I would gladly keep a horse with him today, knowing that it would receive top quality care (keep in mind this is from firsthand experience - I'm not judging a person I don't know).
I would highly recommend riding in a clinic with Paul - you and your horse should get a lot out of it.

Tosca
Oct. 26, 2002, 01:48 PM
I'm not religious at all. It was a joke, hence the wink thing. I did have just kidding after it in brackets, but I edited it out, thinking it was unnecessary. I guess I was wrong. I understand that VTRiders was making a joke about the thong thing, and I can appreciate that /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It was just the first post that irked me ("y'all have no life"); I should have been more clear.

Selma: That MacGyver's a genius.
Bob: First of all he's not a genius, he's an actor. And second, he's not much of an actor.
Selma: You're lying! You're lying!
Sideshow Bob: No Selma, this is lying: that was a well-plotted piece of non-claptrap that never made me want to retch! ~The Simpsons~

odilon
Oct. 26, 2002, 02:11 PM
He should be baned for life, PV is a horse killer.
Like the sniper he's a man who made a bad decision.
He should , for the rest of his life, be responsible of that decision.
Would you take shooting lessons from the sniper?

jetsmom
Oct. 26, 2002, 03:11 PM
Jif- I'm sorry, but I don't think that killing a horse for money is "a poor choice".
Of course I also believe that if you are not mentally retarded, and you are over the age of 12 and intentionally kill someone you should be tried as an adult. So I may not be as forgiving as some of you. I do know that I would not associate with someone who would kill or abuse an animal, no matter how many years ago. It was not a mistke or error in judgement. And yes, I would like that person to somehow pay for it every day of his life. Not go back into training riders who are so hungry for ribbons, that they would overlook such a heinous offense. I can understand wanting to clinic with a top trainer to improve yourself, but no one can answer why you wouldn't choose someone equally capable, that doesn't put money above a horse's life. The above poster made an excellent reference to the sniper. Would you allow him to teach you marksmanship? Does character not mean anything to some of you? I bet the people riding with him before the horse killings thought he was a good trainer, too. BUT HE KILLED A HORSE AND NOW YOU ARE LETTING HIM PROFIT FROM THOSE SAME LOVELY, HUMBLE CREATURES AS WHAT HE SO COLDLY ELECTROCUTED!!
He also risked his career before, by killing the horse, but now he knows that there are people willing to overlook horse killing and still use him. Why wouldn't he do it again? Now he knows there aren't any serious consequences.

Jlf- I just noticed that you said you rode with him early to mid 1990's. The killing took place around that time. I am assuming that you never suspected that he would do such a thing. So why do you feel that, now, when you don't believe he'd ever do it again, that you are right? People that are willing to commit evil acts/crimes don't necessarily LOOK evil.

[This message was edited by jetsmom on Oct. 26, 2002 at 06:32 PM.]

HSM
Oct. 26, 2002, 03:13 PM
"scandal"

"mistake"

How about: "crime"?

levremont
Oct. 26, 2002, 03:32 PM
his history still let this man proffit from horses...speeks volumes for the morals of some. Winning above all. Now I am sure that the people who had horses with him at the time thought he was great, and maybe after hearing what he was involved in the changed their minds about him, or instead they stuck their heads in the sand and thought "oh well" he made a MISTAKE?? ( and as long as it did not hurt them, after all he "really cares that I win".
Great attitude to have, do you also think child molesters should be allowed to open a day care...it was a MISTAKE after all, and they did not rape your child!
There are trainers out there who do actually care about horses ( not only the ones they make big profits on!) who can also inprove your eq, you might want to think about giving them a call...
I kept telling myself I would not post here, but after one of my thirteen year old students read the thread and was in tears about what happened to these horses I had to say something!

findeight
Oct. 26, 2002, 03:53 PM
I work so very hard for my money and must travel continuously, leaving all decisions involving my horse to my trainer and staff.

I cannot trust somebody who was convicted of fraud. Be it a car dealer, real estate agent, heat/air conditioning repair company or horse person. No local BBB can recommend anybody with a conviction. I kind of follow their lead where my money is involved, much less my beloved animals.

VTRider is no doubt referring to the fact a similar PV thread was voted the 2001 "Thread we most wanted to go away". I know we have alot of newbies who need info but enough already with the personal stuff. Let's stick to PV and your personal opinion or experience and lay off each other.

PLEASE.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Medievalist
Oct. 26, 2002, 04:02 PM
Glad to know that my morals are so easily judged. Paul certainly never helped me for the money because he never got any from me...and I'm no jr superstar that is going to go win the finals-far from it actually as I am a poor, 22 yo college student.

I have always kept an open mindset that I can learn from everyone, and yes, when I was given the chance, I took that opportunity to learn from Paul. I'm planning on taking that chance again, mostly because he offered. That means a lot to me. Maybe not to you all, but to me that counts. Paul couldn't care less if I won something, and if I ever did the fact wouldnt come back to him until months later.

I don't even know why I'm responding. It isn't going to accomplish anything. This response will just be followed by 10 other flame filled responses.

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Check out my barn's site:
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Comment est-ce qu'on dit &lt;quiche&gt; en anglais? Mapi LaJoux

MAD
Oct. 26, 2002, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by VT:
If I wore granny panties instead of thongs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will EBTW be there with her camera the day you do that?

SBT
Oct. 26, 2002, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by odilon:

Would you take shooting lessons from the sniper?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good point, but (and I hate to say this) that's really comparing apples to oranges. The sniper(s) killed...what's the final tally? 9 people? Paul Valliere arranged to have one horse killed. As awful as that is to us, the snipers' murderous rampage seems worse.

I'm going to say it again, because some people don't get it. It's not about FORGIVING, it's about FORGETTING. Forgiving someone is not the same as forgetting what they did and allowing them to be in a position to hurt you again.

Knowing that PV killed one horse to line his pockets is enough for me to never go near him.

I agree with what others have said: if this were any other industry, this man would be shunned. Horse people, in their lust for competitive glory and in their greed for monetary rewards, CHOOSE to "forget" the grossly immoral and abusive acts of their peers. I, for one, think it's high time for this tolerance to stop. We need to quit supporting the horse murderers and abusers, the child molestors, the drunks, the drug-addicts/dealers, the mobsters, and the psychos. I don't agree that ALL BNT's fall into one of these categories. Perhaps none are saints...but there ARE some that have not committed felony offenses, who care for their horses and clients, and who preach good riding and good horsemanship. If we would all give our business to THEM, maybe we could rid ourselves of the scumbags.

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull." -Bart Simpson

Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron

nutmeg
Oct. 26, 2002, 07:38 PM
... JumpinFool on page 4 of this thread. "The Sopranos" have nothing on some of Paul's former friends. But he was a thrillseeker and went along for the ride willingly. Yes, he got in over his head. Has he atoned? Has anyone spotted him at New Holland saving horses from the killers?
This post is in loving memory of Oblique and Tolad, for whom the statute of limitations sadly ran out.

Anuschka335
Oct. 26, 2002, 08:29 PM
Alright, i dont even know why im getting myself into this, but i was a working student for Paul as a junior. When my own eq horse coliced and had surgery, I had never met Paul personally, although he did know my parents for years, my father being a trainer and my mother had ridden with him as a junior. Paul was the first to call me and offer me horses to ride at indoors. He helped me more than i could have ever imagined, and i never gave him anything other than good solid work in return. I had a phenomenal experience riding with him, it payed off big time when my eq horse came back from his time off. I'll thank Paul a million times over for how much he helped me.
I can also say that i worked for paul for at least a year after i was out of the juniors, i spent many a morning mucking stalls along side him, riding sale horses in front of clients and eating dinner at his table. I have spoken to him about the horse killing, he will say over and over that that was the worst mistake he has ever made, he is very sorry for what he has done. Every horse in his barn is fat, happy, shiney, and in better condition than horses in most barns i have been in.
I agree that what he did was absolutely disgusting, no one not can justify what he did. But i do not agree with people on this BB attacking the people who still chose to train with him. He was more helpful to me than i could have ever imagined anyone being. I do not feel sorry or immoral for having trained with him. I am elated that i had the opportunity to work with him.

creseida
Oct. 26, 2002, 09:53 PM
I guess it is all about what your conscience will allow you to do.

My conscience says, this man values money over the life of an animal who was entrusted to him. Would I entrust a horse to him? Not in a million years.

There are so many trainers out there who are equal or superior to PV who have not committed such an attrocity, that I really don't understand why someone would patronise him.

IMO, by training with him, you are condoning this action, and continuing to allow him to profit from horses. The same animals he had murdered; a decision made with a clear conscience all in the name of a buck. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif As was pointed out earlier, were the horse a human being, it would have been premeditated 1st degree murder in cold blood. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

The man did not make a mistake. That would imply that the act was not intentional. It most certainly was intentional.

Furthermore, it wasn't just the single act of killing an animal; it was deliberately made to look accidental so that PV could defraud an insurance company of a very large sum of money, based on the horse's value. A value that PV himself set, as a "professional and BNT in the industry" which was artificially inflated.

It wasn't spur of the moment, which is yet another arguement against any momentary lapse of sanity or calling it a "mistake". This scheme required a good deal of premeditated planning, and had PV any conscience whatsoever, he would never have done it to begin with. The fact that his conscience never prevented him from hiring The Sandman, tells me he never had one to begin with. People say he got in over his head. Well if he'd had a shred of integrity, he'd have never even gotten his toes wet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It was all about profit at any cost, and that "cost" was a horse's life, and in a very brutal, cold-blooded, calculated way. How could anyone who has any integrity at all, ever justify such an act?

There is no justification for what he did. None whatsoever.

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

Anuschka335
Oct. 26, 2002, 10:09 PM
No one is condoning what Paul did, or supporting it. My training with Paul provided no financial profit to him, seeing that i was a working student and my own horse lived at my own farm.
As far as trainers being equal to or better than him,how do you know how well they treat their horses? I understand that there are countless other well known trainers out there who did not get caught in the insurance fraud, but were certainly involved in the murders. Remember we only know about those who were caught.

Weatherford
Oct. 27, 2002, 02:48 AM
nutmeg - who were those two horses? email me privately with the answer - thanks.

I think it is REALLY important for people to express their views on this to the Fed (USAEq), so when that 10 years is up, the committee can work from the members' feelings on the subject, not just their own.

That is also true for the other banned people.

Lastly, someone was objecting to the behaviour of a professional at a show, and was upset s/he hadn't been set down for the behaviour. CALL A STEWARD. File a protest (which, if you call the steward, and it is an obvious problem rather than a personal one, you shouldn't have to do). LET THE PROFESSIONALS KNOW they are being watched, and they are expected to behave at a certain standard. If someone gets jailed for their behaviour at their barn (say, with underage kids, drinking, drugs, etc), make sure the Fed KNOWS about the case, so they can proceed to take action against that person.

We all need to be proactive in this, not just reactive.

19 year member of the New Hope clique! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buryinghill2
Oct. 27, 2002, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpin'Fool:
...and of course I am continually surprised by the people who think he made 'just one mistake.' Please!! Doesn't anyone remember the big ad in the Chronicle from one of those 'loyal customers' for THREE horses that had all passed away within a relatively short time? One of them was found in his stall with a broken ankle, for heavens sake! It was one of those things everyone 'knew'. Barn fires, trailer accidents...

Many people were sure the reason he flipped was because he got the word from the long time customer not to let the Feds delve too deeply into the past. I'd be way more afraid of the customer, too!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wanted to repeat this post further down the thread so new readers of the thread saw it. Those of us that were around on a daily basis at the time know that this post says it all.

Silly Mommy
Oct. 27, 2002, 06:30 AM
Yup!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LOTS of stuff that's "just" hearsay. Former things done by other people convicted as well, just not caught with these particular "things".

That stupid statute of limitations...

There *may* have been other abuses, just not recorded instances, that's why people who were around back then just sit here and /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!

[This message was edited by SQW on Oct. 27, 2002 at 10:54 AM.]

buryinghill2
Oct. 27, 2002, 06:57 AM
I have not added anything to this thread until now because it all seems like such a no brainer to me, but I finally have to speak up.
Many years ago, in another life, PV was someone I considered a friend. If he walked in my front door today, I would not acknowledge his existence.
The bottom line is this, PV murdered innocent horse entrusted to him for one reason, greed. It was not a "mistake", as his defenders like to say. This was premeditated murder, over and over, it was no "mistake". Is PV sorry? He's very sorry. He's sorry he got caught.
A mistake is an accident that happens once, then hopefully you learn from it so it doesn't happen again.
The reality in this case is that if PV had not been caught, he would still be making this "mistake" today.

[This message was edited by Cpt. Crunch on Oct. 27, 2002 at 10:06 AM.]

LMH
Oct. 27, 2002, 07:05 AM
These questions just entered my head:

Would you send you child to a daycare run by a child molestor?

Would you attend a seminar on child care run by a child molestor?

Would you board you cat at someone's business that tied kittens to a rock and threw them in a river?

Would you attend a training class for dogs by someone recently found guilty of animal or dog abuse?

What if they were all sorry for what they did? What if they weren't? What if you didn't know?

Just curious....no need to answer just think to yourself....

But if you answered NO to any of these questons then you can understand while folks get all riled up over this.

No matter how many times this thread comes up there will be two opposing sides and ne'er may the two meet I am afraid.

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown

[This message was edited by LMH on Oct. 27, 2002 at 07:08 PM.]

[This message was edited by LMH on Oct. 27, 2002 at 07:11 PM.]

creseida
Oct. 27, 2002, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anuschka335:
As far as trainers being equal to or better than him,how do you know how well they treat their horses? I understand that there are countless other well known trainers out there who did not get caught in the insurance fraud, but were certainly involved in the murders. Remember we only know about those who were caught.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is correct. I don't know for sure what other trainers do. I DO know that PV WAS caught red-handed with his greedy little fingers in the cookie jar. Therefore, I have irreputable proof that he has put out a murder for hire contract on an innocent animal, whose only "failing" was that he wasn't worth the artificially inflated price upon his head so long as he remained alive.

So, PV has proven that he doesn't care for anything but the almighty $$, and that if a horse is worth more dead than alive, then he will do whatever it takes to maximise his profit, to include killing the horse.

You're right, there may be other trainers out there who weren't caught. You may speculate if you wish about the care they give. They are innocent until proven guilty.

PV WAS proven guilty. He committed a truly heinous crime, and it was absolutely intentional from the word "go". In my mind, PV, BW and those who were caught are the absolute antitheses of ethics, morality and integrity. When others are caught, I will add them to the list, and I will denounce them as well.

~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~

wondrlnd77
Oct. 27, 2002, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
These questions just entered my head:

Would you send you child to a daycare run by a child molestor?

Would you attend a seminar on child care run by a child molestor?

Would you board you cat at someone's business that tied kittens to a rock and threw them in a river?

Would you attend a training class for dogs by someone recently found guilty of animal or dog abuse?

Just curious....no need to answer just think to yourself....

"You can tell a gelding, you can ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion." - Unknown<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Definitely, of course not. But I also would never do business with Paul Valliere. I am sure hos supporters here would say the same about the above quoted...but there is no blue ribbon involved!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

rockstar
Oct. 27, 2002, 04:03 PM
I'm incredibly shocked and disheartened at so many people's need to be so judgemental of a man they know nothing REALLY of or about!

For those of you who know him well now or knew him well before... for those of you who speak out against him from that perspective, fine. I believe that, due to your closeness to him and you personal knowledge of who he is and his past and current conduct, that you have solid, grounded reasons for your feelings.

For those of you who have only read about him and/or never knew him well enough now or before, shame on you to so readily believe that there's no way he's sorry and/or deserving of a chance to try make up for what he's done. How on EARTH do you know?

I thought I was a rather cynical pessimist UNTIL this thread, now I realize that I'm a lot less intolerant and unable to try and see another side than I previously thought... I can just leave that role to most of you.

He may, very well, be a horrible, dispicable man who repents nothing and is, indeed, not sorry for anything except that he was caught.

On the other hand, he may be a man who did something heinous, realized what he was doing too late, and now has to face living the rest of life making up for his crime.

How the hell would I know? How the hell do most of you???

At least I won't deny him the second option, as so many of you.

And really now, PV and the snipers are criminals alike, but come on!!! Comparing the two is completely ridiculous, and making such broad, sweeping (and illiegitmate) comparisons is really scary!!!!!

Vote November 5th!!!

VTrider
Oct. 28, 2002, 04:37 AM
You go girl!

levremont
Oct. 28, 2002, 04:56 AM
I never said he wasn't sorry, he may well be but he blew his chances in my book. It still does not mean he should be working around horses... As an adult he made a bad DECISION that he will pay for for the rest of his life ( most people will not forget it), he will have to live with the concequances (sp) of his decision ( or am I the only one who was brought up that way) . Now, I am not saying that people should go around throwing stones at him, but I do think the huge crime he committed means that he should not be allowed to proffit from horses and have them left in his care. Judge a man by his actions... he proved he was not a good horseman! That's all.

Flash44
Oct. 28, 2002, 06:43 AM
Some people are just saying that they will never do business with him, which not the same as condemning him or criticizing him.

Erin
Oct. 28, 2002, 07:06 AM
Guys, have you not noticed that you're making the SAME arguments and statements OVER AND OVER again?

This is NOT an argument anyone can "win." Yes, it's important for anyone thinking of doing business with ANY horse person to know their history. Doncha think the whole BB knows now? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also, let's stick to the actual CHARGES, please. Just because someone has been convicted of one crime does not mean you can accuse them of everything else under the sun. The same rules apply to felons as to the rest of the world -- DO NOT use this BB to imply that anyone has done anything illegal unless charges have been filed in court.

Rockstar makes an excellent point. Knowing PV's history, you are certainly entitled to your own feelings about whether or not you'd train with him or support him with your business. But to suggest that you know anything about what he thinks? I know some people here have worked with him or knew him well and might have a point of reference to speak from. But I don't think the rest of you have been inside his head, so I think making guesses as to what he thinks or thought is pretty irresponsible.

That said, I've never met the man, but from what I know about the whole thing, I'd certainly never train with him. My own personal decision.

And yes, for whoever asked pages and pages ago, yes, Marion Hulick did time... she received the minimum sentence, while Lindemann got the maximum. Sorry, I forgot about her. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I think everything that can possibly be said on this topic has been said. Enough.